Ok-let’s take a poll. I’m against broad-brushing. I think that there might be some who see those who comment on the “anti sgm blogs” as one big mass (like a tumor 
) of like minded people. I’m curious where the individuals who frequent the blogs stand on this issue.
Feel free to just type in a number, or to explain why you feel the way you do. I’d encourage readers who never post to participate to join in. Please vote only once.
Here’s the question- Is reform possible within SGM?
1-Yes!
2-No!
3-Your blog’s existence is inherently sinful!
Thank you in advance for your participation. (That means please humor me and play along).
March 23rd, 2009 at 3:44 pm
#1- Yes
All things are possible….
March 23rd, 2009 at 3:53 pm
1 – Yes reform is possible.
March 23rd, 2009 at 4:15 pm
The Quizzler requests a number………… 4 – your blog has helped me heal!
N.S.L.B.
March 23rd, 2009 at 4:24 pm
1 – ‘with God, all things are possible.’
1 – ‘what is impossible with men is possible with God.’
Do I think it will happen?
No.
Men love power too much, and CJ, having set up a Papal polity, will not give up that power easily–he is easily the single pastor in America with the most direct power over his denomination, even though it is a tiny one.
The ‘local’ pastors, ditto–apostles or whatever name du jour they give themselves, ditto.
However, I know God loves his people, Jesus is passionate for his bride. What would the point of this blog be if there was no chance of change, repentance, true humility, restoration?
Why would we not desire this, and know that only God could accomplish it?
March 23rd, 2009 at 4:27 pm
PK’s wife votes with a hopeful #1. That being said, I’d like to add that PDI/SGM wasn’t built in a day, and certainly won’t be changed/reformed overnight. But I believe it is worth working towards. If you’d like an inspiring reminder of how to persevere in the midst of working for change, I invite you to watch the movie Amazing Grace. What a glowing testimony to one man’s perseverance, literally over decades!
PD
March 23rd, 2009 at 4:44 pm
#1 – Yes!
March 23rd, 2009 at 4:50 pm
Gosh RT-see why I left you in charge? (aside from being one of the frozen chosen
)
I never thought of CJ in the terms you used above-”he is easily the single pastor in America with the most direct power over his denomination”.
I’ve mentally compared CJ to Chuck Smith, the founder and leader of Calvary Chapel. CC would adhere to the “Moses Principle”, and have their own, self appointed leader. Similarly, they have rewritten their history to exclude former high profile leaders. A major difference is that a CC pastor has to sign off on the CC distinctives to “fly the dove” (use the logo). My understanding is, if a CC decides they no longer agree with the distinctives, all they lose is the right to “fly the dove”. Many have lay elder boards, and their by laws would vary from CC to CC.
I just had an “aha” moment…
I like those at my age…
March 23rd, 2009 at 4:55 pm
Possible, but quite unlikely.
March 23rd, 2009 at 5:08 pm
I vote #1 yes. And I’m one of the oldies -hey wait, I mean, my PDI STORY is old
. I know from experience this stuff has been going on for decades. But you just never know what God is going to do.
Protestant Dame,
I just watched Amazing Grace this past weekend. I too was struck by the passion and perseverance of William Wilberforce. He was definitely one of those “for such a time as this” kind of folks. I want to be that in my little sphere.
March 23rd, 2009 at 5:23 pm
Like Gracie, I’m from the PDI days, and saw a lot go down hill during my time there. Yet, if God can change a little ‘ole Canary, He can change anyone. So, I vote #1, yes for reform! With God, ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE.
However, like Protestant Dame suggests (I loved Amazing Grace!), in so many words, Rome wasn’t built in a day. It took a loooooong time for the leaven to grow to the size it is now. Purging it will take some time, and many voices continuing to speak out. Someone told me that salt will kill leaven. Let us continue to be the “salt of the earth”. Repentance, reform, and renewal IS possible!
March 23rd, 2009 at 5:24 pm
The answer is a little more complex then a “yes” or “no.” Yes, I believe that anything is possible, so, then, logically SGM can be reformed. That being said, in order for this to happen, it can no longer be “Sovereign Grace Ministries,” as it would go against much of what the “Industry” is built on, namely “CONTROL, AUTHORITARIANISM, and MALE DOMINATION.” Those at the top, who are far from being above reproach, would have to “retire,” and new leadership would have to be put in place, with a new foundation and direction. If this occurs, there is some hope, but again, it would not be SGM, except possibly in name, and would have to be a whole new ministry. So, I guess I answered the question: SGM would have to fall, in order for a new ministry to rise from its ashes and take its place. If that is the case…let’s not call in Sovereign Grace Ministries…that would be a little too painful.
March 23rd, 2009 at 5:29 pm
#2
but not for the reasons most people likely think..but oh well..that’s my vote.
now, I do believe reform (change) is possible from WITHOUT..but that is another post
Jim, glad you and Carole are back hope you had a restful weekend on the beach and didn’t get sunburned!
March 23rd, 2009 at 5:42 pm
Thanks Juli! The weekend was needed and awesome. Carole and I have this thing with the ocean-it’s therapeutic. It was cold by Florida standards, but I still managed to get a sunburn. My Greek last name hides the fact that I’m 1/2 Scots Irish (mostly), which means I get a sunburn checking the mail…
Of course Carole has never had a sunburn in her life…
March 23rd, 2009 at 5:45 pm
“I assure you, most solemnly I tell you, Unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains [just one grain; it never becomes more but lives] by itself alone. But if it dies, it produces many others and yields a rich harvest.” Jesus, John 12:24, Amplified
Though Jesus was speaking of the necessity of His own death, there is a wider truth, here. Reform might mean some death to SGM as a whole, like salt kills leaven. Ressurection into new life is then entirely possible!
March 23rd, 2009 at 5:48 pm
Jim… if I don’t have a sunburn, what is this pink stuff on my face and arms?
March 23rd, 2009 at 5:51 pm
Absolutely, and positively #1. The church should always be reforming. You can’t read the reformers and escape this.
~jw
March 23rd, 2009 at 5:51 pm
BTW… My vote… I agree with what RT said…
March 23rd, 2009 at 5:59 pm
PK said:
“You can’t read the reformers and escape this.”
So true. Where would we all be without Martin Luther? Also, if love motivates us, well, there is nothing more powerful on this earth than God’s love and compassion. That’s why some of us can’t leave people in bondage to authoritarianism without trying to help them find freedom. Jim, are you SURE I can’t vote twice?
March 23rd, 2009 at 6:27 pm
I can’t help but think about how the Reformers broke away from the Catholic church….
I do believe God can do anything. But what is it He wants to do? It seems to me He’s created a group of fellowshipping believers, a small part of His bride, right here on this blog (and Kris’s). Maybe God’s plans are still a mystery to us–something we haven’t thought of yet. It would be an amazing miracle if reform were to take place. I just don’t know how someone who is very humble could be missing the need for change. I’m being sarcastic yet I’m not. Yes, God can open CJ’s eyes.
But I vote #2, no.
March 23rd, 2009 at 6:38 pm
2. No. If we’re waiting for the leaders to change, then we are seeking an authoritarian solution to an authoritarian problem. It doesn’t happen that way. Real reform can only happen from the ground up. The members have to make this happen. And the members will never organise anything on their own. There’s no way to do it. The leaders won’t let you organise a Bible study. If members have a meeting to discuss reforms, there will be a purge.
March 23rd, 2009 at 6:57 pm
1. YES, it would be a good thing for the churches: members and leaders as well. Most change occurs with suffering . Only God can change HEARTs and minds though so it depends on HIM. All denominations are changing as is SGM , whether they tell you or not. Maybe reform comes most often from the ground up because the Holy Spirit starts moving on HEARTs. Good changes always start in the HEART. Its all about love.
March 23rd, 2009 at 7:15 pm
Tough logical/theological question, Jim.
Can something be said to be possible to reform if the process of sufficiently reforming it would leave it no longer itself?
Drawing on the Protestant Reformation is a tough call because the reformers illustrate both sides. First they rejected rather than reformed what they came to believe was un-reformable. Then they taught that the church must be “always reforming” to remain faithful and effective.
To seek to be a Luther or an Erasmus in SGM – that seems to be the question. In the 16th century, only Luther came anywhere near to accomplishing the goal.
March 23rd, 2009 at 7:34 pm
2. I agree with Greener Pastures.
March 23rd, 2009 at 8:12 pm
Jim and Carole–so glad you had a great time at the beach…and that is not a sunburn, Carole, you just look ’sun-kissed.’
I can’t go to the beach–this little frozen chosen chile melts in the sun.
And you left me in charge simply because I just happened to be coming in the door as you guys were running out, beach towels, flip-flops, and suntan lotion in hand. And then I passed if off to Canary, since she is smarter, cuter and was not feeling that great that day. I thought we were all pretty good, didn’t y’all think so? We didn’t get the site shut down or nuthin’.
I love the lack of ‘meanness’ in these posts. I see love for the Body, and for that part of the Body which worships in a SGM community. So heartening.
Have mercy, Lord Jesus.
March 23rd, 2009 at 8:21 pm
You’re right, RT - we didn’t get the site shut down! Hey, that’s pretty amazing. Leaving a teacher in charge was a brilliant idea, Jim. Somehow, we all stayed on our best behavior, knowing RT was hanging around. She wasn’t going to take any gaff from us (unless she was allowed to lead the way – hee-hee!).
March 23rd, 2009 at 8:24 pm
#1..Just as in the word, we are told, some, plant, some water, and some see the Harvest, I have to believe that this will happen. We may not see what we want to see as quickly as we want, but I believe it can happen.
I also know that there are those churches in SGM that are so totally different from the norm that I pray they will leaven the “whole” and from them, reform come.
MiMi
March 23rd, 2009 at 9:05 pm
I’m not part of SGM but I have something important to say. I’ve been a born-again believer for over 35 years and I could tell you stories about power-tripping ego-centric “leaders” in various denominations, and so-called non-denominational churches that would make your hair stand on end.
However, for now, I want to address this poll and the bigger picture, something that is hard to do when you’re an insider, traveling the dark forest of scriptural distortions created by leaders who don’t have a clue as to what it means to have the mind of Christ, to abide in Christ, or to be a servant type leader.
To answer your question definitively, as to whether or not you all should work towards reforming SGM, one merely has to understand what Jesus said about this issue. Jesus said, “No one… puts new wine into old wineskins, or else the wineskins break, the wine is spilled, and the wineskins are ruined. But they put new wine into new wineskins, and both are preserved” (Mt. 9:17). The new wine is representative of the Holy Spirit. The wineskins, the form that contains the Holy Spirit, is the church. We all understand that this is Christ’s body; Christ as the head and every one of us as members of that body, joined together to the efficient working and edification of the whole.
It is obvious that SGM is the form into which you who are set free want to pour the new wine of Holy Spirit truth. But my 35 years of experience has taught me it is a royal waste of time. When I have prayed for understanding, this passage has been quickened to my mind again and again. I now no longer question what Jesus was talking about when he spoke those words, I KNOW. When people try to pour the new wine of Holy Spirit truth into an old wineskin body of believers, that church inevitably bursts at the seams and both are lost in an emotional and spiritual wilderness for many years.
So, to sum up, if you want to go forward in the peace, joy, love and unity of those Holy Spirit truths revealed to you, then you must choose 2 and say no, we will not try to reform SGM.
March 23rd, 2009 at 9:26 pm
Hi Leroy-
First time post, I think.
If so, welcome!
March 23rd, 2009 at 9:40 pm
2
If “reform” happens, it will no longer be SGM. The “reform” that is necessary is a complete overhaul of the entire “business model” of the organization.
That will no longer be SGM.
Just my opinion.
March 23rd, 2009 at 10:37 pm
2
Unfortunately it would seem that the overall structure of the “denomination” is flawed. Once free of the constraints of the SGM “covering”, the local churches could then either move in a healthy direction, or close – under the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
It would be interesting to take a representative sample of SGM churches and look at their legal structure, as defined within the non-profit law of their respective state.
Have they all adopted a common governance structure that gives SGM a controlling interest in how the church operates?
Where is the individual property held? Is it in the name of the local church; a tightly-held corporation related to the church – or something else?
If the property is held in the church name and SGM has direct control of the local church governance, then SGM is the de facto owner of the property . . . all of it.
If SGM does not have this direct level of control over the local church governmance (from a legal standpoint) and does not have control of the property, then their ability to restrain the church from selecting or retaining their own pastor is limited to an advisory role.
There can always be a high degree of influence – both good and bad – even in the absence of legal authority. Unless there is some type of legal tie that directly cedes governing authority to SGM, it would seem that they (CJ) would be unable to remove a pastor without the concurrence of the local church.
In the case of most of the leadership of Fairfax Covenant Church (back in the PDI days), it almost seemed like Benny, Frank, Larry and Chris were removed from the picture in fairly short order and Mark was quickly installed, effectively transferring all authority to SGM. Virtually overnight, church staff, shift to reformed theology and many other key areas of church life changed.
We have been gone from PDI/SGM for more than 10 years now, but still have great affection for many friends there. They need to be free to ask questions, receive clear anwers and understand the true reason when things happen that have a great impact on their lives. We were badly hurt by decisions made through the Mark Mullery transition into FCC, but, as others have mentioned, have no desire for any form or reconciliation with SGM. Normal growth has covered over the wounds with strong scars and we have moved ahead.
March 23rd, 2009 at 10:45 pm
Sad (but free), you said: ”it almost seemed like Benny, Frank, Larry and Chris were removed from the picture in fairly short order and Mark was quickly installed, effectively transferring all authority to SGM. Virtually overnight, church staff, shift to reformed theology and many other key areas of church life changed.”
This is amazing. Why didn’t we all say “something is very wrong here” and move on back then? This sort of thing just blows my mind that I was so blind for so long and just didn’t see all the ’stuff.’
March 23rd, 2009 at 11:21 pm
Sidney said:
March 23rd, 2009 at 9:40 pm
2 If “reform” happens, it will no longer be SGM. The “reform” that is necessary is a complete overhaul of the entire “business model” of the organization. That will no longer be SGM. Just my opinion.
My sentiments exactly. Well spoken Sidney. Of course I believe that all things are possible with God but just as Sidney said, it would no longer be SGM. (I still have hopes that SGCC will pull out of SGM. Not likely though.)
My vote is a 2 also.
March 24th, 2009 at 6:45 am
No, not with the present regime.
March 24th, 2009 at 8:51 am
Skinner said;
“Real reform can only happen from the ground up. The members have to make this happen. And the members will never organize anything on their own. There’s no way to do it. The leaders won’t let you organize a Bible study. If members have a meeting to discuss reforms, there will be a purge.”
Leroy said;
“Jesus said, “No one… puts new wine into old wineskins, or else the wineskins break, the wine is spilled, and the wineskins are ruined. But they put new wine into new wineskins, and both are preserved” (Mt. 9:17). The new wine is representative of the Holy Spirit. The wineskins, the form that contains the Holy Spirit, is the church. We all understand that this is Christ’s body; Christ as the head and every one of us as members of that body, joined together to the efficient working and edification of the whole.”
The split in Pasadena a few years back would seem to confirm this. Can anyone shed some light on that, “Purging?”
March 24th, 2009 at 10:02 am
I want to explain something that I said in my last comment: that I don’t understand how someone (CJ) who is humble could be missing the need for change. I didn’t just mean it as sarcasm. Hopefully without sounding judgemental, I have to say that the members of SG churches see CJ as being so godly that if he says something, it has to be true. At the least, I can say this was true of myself. Now if CJ were to announce to all of SGM that the blogs are right and true and he were to call for change throughout SGM, I believe that the members would praise him for that, for his humility, and then gladly follow whatever next direction he gave. So what would change? And I think that may have been what Skinner was saying, too. I also have thought that if something like that were to happen, SGM would then be confirmed more fully as the best church organization with the most humble leadership.
Of course, there’s no knowing what changes CJ might make if he declared the blogs correct. But whatever it ended up being, it seems to me that those who unknowinly worship the church of SG would only be more inclined to do so.
All just my opinion, I know.
March 24th, 2009 at 10:04 am
#1 – but not with this generation of leadership.
March 24th, 2009 at 10:26 am
PFR
I remember reading details of the Pasadena “split” somewhere.
In that “split” Che Ahn didn’t like the direction PDI/SGM was taking and decided to leave the group. He comments on this in one of his books. I recall the major issue Che Ahn had was that the new leader (apparently Mahaney) had a new view on missions, especially international missions. Che Ahn was quite missions oriented and didn’t like this new direction.
Here is a write up on this:
http://hirr.hartsem.edu/research/RevivingPente.pdf
March 24th, 2009 at 11:07 am
I say # 1 — I am at peace to stay and pray for now…
March 24th, 2009 at 11:18 am
#2 – there is no instrument to change the church by the congregation, the only ways to change the church are part of the problem of the church, and would not solve the problems. Now obviosly God can do anything, but form a human perspective I do think its more like the reformation – it was acheived by leaving the church, and when peopel left the Catholic church’s response was not to understand and accept what was said, instead they went in the other direction and strengthened and made more explicit many of the areas that Luther spoke against.
And sadly re:Travis – I don’t know what generation you are talking about, but if CJ/Dave, etc are the current adn the younger pastors are the next – I think it is less likely with the next generation.
March 24th, 2009 at 11:54 am
SueBee,
Welcome! I am glad your heart is at peace to stay and pray. Perhaps the insiders, such as in the Gilbert church, can make a difference, especially in their prayers. I think change must come from the saints inside SGM, who begin to question, search the scriptures, and come together to challenge the errors that are being taught. This requires thinking and research and faith to go forward. That all begins with prayer. The Lord bless you.
March 24th, 2009 at 1:14 pm
Leroy – wow, brilliant comments..and welcome to the Refuge!
Like you, I voted no to reform being possible in SGM. Just wanted you to know your comments got me thinking ..and that is always a good thing! Thanks for the insights brother…
March 24th, 2009 at 1:59 pm
I already gave my answer to the quesstion (see above); however, has anyone considered how many times the Pastors and SGM Leadership (CJ, Gene Emerson, Dave Harvey, etc…) are placed on the proverbial pedestal as “Humble Men,” “Filled with humility,” “The most humble man (or men) I know…,” “…what we are witnessing is true humility….” We have been bombarded with this montra for so many years, I believe we have grown to worship it. Humility, within SGM churches, has left its roots and has become an idol. True humility would never look like what SGM presents. True humility is never spoken about. That is what makes for true humility. Yet, time and time again, we, the sheep, have been reminded of the humility of our leadership. It might just be agood idea for the PC to teach a course in “Humility.” (Then again, maybe they already do!)
March 24th, 2009 at 2:13 pm
2 – No!
I really want to say yes, but I can’t. I think a significant number can walk out of it and get healing. But, like the Roman Catholic Church of Luther’s time, SGM leadership is too entrenched in it’s own love of power.
I would adore to be wrong. Simply adore it if they could/would/did.
March 24th, 2009 at 3:05 pm
Greener Pastures,
I am applauding your insightful post on humility. I saw that over and over again in my time in SGland time too.
Maybe the purpose was to build each other up in order to make it easier to “lead” the laity? I mean why would we want to question such humble leaders; it must be our pride and rebellion that is the problem–I say with tongue in cheek.
Oh, my vote—2 because the power structure in place is too entrenched, IMHO
March 24th, 2009 at 3:24 pm
Hey Refuge… thought I’d weigh in on this here poll thing-a-ma-bob.
My take on the Reform question is NO. It is not possible.
Some of you are familiar with the fun, frolic, and frivolity of my commentary. Some of you are not. So hail and well met. I was told that I could shamelessly plug by your most gracious host. So I am doing just that.
My answer is a preview of an up coming post on http://www.SpiritualTyranny.com: To Reform or Not to Reform is one of the hardest hitting commentaries I have offered to date. It isn’t up just yet. The publication date is in about a week or so… in this post I will DETIAL extensively why Reform is not possible. The post has been rightly called a book by those who have read advanced copies. It is largish… big enough that I am going to offer it as a PDF once I solve some technical issues. Of course I will allow comments for the sundry anti SGM satire folk to do their comedy bit. Heheheh… that should be real fun.
Ehem…
To Reform or Not to Reform connects a lot of dots that I have been addressing in general on my blog. I have set out to lay a foundation for all of my thoughts, so while you wait, might I recommend familiarizing yourself with a some directly related articles.
http://spiritualtyranny.com/defining-insanity/
http://spiritualtyranny.com/fr.....rs-cometh/
http://spiritualtyranny.com/pass-the-mint-jelly/ (all linked articles)
http://spiritualtyranny.com/lay-down-your-mind/
So, until the apoplexy begins.
In a bit,
John
March 24th, 2009 at 4:29 pm
John Immel,
I’m looking forward to reading your “book”. I have to say, you crack me up. You help us see the ridiculousness in ourselves when it comes to following error. I love it!
I want to put a question out to everyone who is voting “no”. Isn’t it possible that we might, through this blog, help set a fire in the hearts of those reading, so THEY can be used on the inside by the Lord for reform? Or, is this indeed the case of putting new wine into the old wine skin? I’m not quite convinced, yet.
Hey Jim, what do YOU think?
March 24th, 2009 at 4:43 pm
Greener Pastures said:
“has anyone considered how many times the Pastors and SGM Leadership (CJ, Gene Emerson, Dave Harvey, etc…) are placed on the proverbial pedestal as “Humble Men,” “Filled with humility,” “The most humble man (or men) I know…,” “…what we are witnessing is true humility….” We have been bombarded with this montra for so many years, I believe we have grown to worship it. Humility, within SGM churches, has left its roots and has become an idol. True humility would never look like what SGM presents.”
Greener Pastures
I think that because they say that these men are “humble” so much (either intentionally or not) so many people begin to believe that is the case without really doing their own analysis and thought on the matter. That is people assume it is true because it is said so often and you know how questioning is discouraged within SGM.
Thus repeatedly tell someone that something like this is true and they will come to believe it without ever doing their own verification.
March 24th, 2009 at 4:58 pm
I want to participate in my own poll, but I’ve publicly flip-flopped on this issue so many times, I feel that my current opinion carries little weight.
A couple of things that would inform my current opinion would be:
The amount of email that I receive from current members of SGM churches, cheering me on. This would include some care group leaders.
I’m aware of two younger pastors (one a sr p) who are not thrilled with the “apostles”. I don’t know either of these men personally, but the fact that they don’t mind me knowing their view is encouraging.
The blogs are having their desired effect. There are those in leadership within SGM that are aware that public scrutiny is now a reality. Attempts to dismiss the blogs will work in some cases, but as our credibility is questioned, our friends will go to greater lengths to confirm our credibility. The source documents from the Chesapeake situation are an example of this. I expect recordings of family meetings and meetings with pastors (which are legal in one party states) to start appearing online. This may not lead to real reform, but I’ll take what I can get. I want to see fewer battered sheep. The motives of those who change their methods are God’s business.
There is a growing concern among more than one of the reformed big dogs. That’s all I can say about that at this time. It might be all that I ever say, so don’t ask.
Your private conversations with me are private. Their private conversations with me are private.
I have to assume that my knowledge of the above stated facts are but a portion of the actual situation SGM currently finds themselves in. What little I know gives me hope.
What I hope the leadership of SGM understands is that I would be full of joy sharing good reports about positive changes with their organization. I find no pleasure in exposing, or even being aware, of situations like Chesapeake.
So c’mon guys-do it just for me
Canary, that’s what I think…
March 24th, 2009 at 4:59 pm
Brace yourself for that cold water everyone….
Canary, I voted No I didn’t think reform was possible – and again I would say No, to your question about the possibility of setting a fire in the hearts of those reading…actually, a partial no. There is a fire that is set in the hearts of those reading, but not in the way most think. Reform doesn’t come from the inside in my estimation – it comes from without, and when it DOES happen internally, it is because people LEAVE, and from the bottom up, things change.
If nobody had left SGM up to this point and joined their individual voices collectively to speak loud enough for SGM to take notice, there would not be any attention being given to even THINKING about change. They don’t hear individuals, they only pay attention to masses, and even then, it’s limited as we all know from the past 18 months. And even though hundreds upon hundreds of SGMers nationwide have left their churches that still wasn’t enough to get the Uber Apostles’ attention.
The existence of numerous “anti-SGM blogs” for over a year (or whatever they call them) – not enough.
Bad press – not enough.
Hundreds of people citing the same problems who didn’t even attend the same churches- not enough.
Current members expressing concern to their pastors about the blogs – not enough.
People leaving churches – not enough.
People stopping their tithes – not enough.
The Wider Reformed Community becoming aware of the internal problems – not enough.
Happy Mom’s Story – not enough.
Noel’s Story: not enough.
The fabricated “Roy” story and blatant desperation SGM loyals will go to to defend their idol – not enough.
What would be enough for SGM? Total Anihilation from the bottom up. Everyone displaced and removed, leadership and pastors repenting publicly, leadership and pastors broken before a Holy God and held to account for their actions toward His children.
Will this happen? I doubt it. We’re talking over 20 years of this mess. SGM has been warned more than once over the years through various people about their various teachings and practices- they didn’t listen. They don’t get it.
As for that fire – I think it will happen, but in the hearts of those whose eyes are opened..God will set that fire in them to follow Him alone, to worship Him alone..like the pillar of fire by night in wilderness..there is a fire to be lit, and a fire to burn inside of us…and it is the very same fire that will bring SGM down to ashes one day. That fire is the Spirit of God. His fire is unavoidable – they either repent, and SGM as we know it ceases to exist, or they don’t repent – and burst open at the seams like the old wineskin as the pressure and power of the Holy Spirit displaces them.
March 24th, 2009 at 5:05 pm
Jim…I’d love to see that happen to – giving good reports, but in a sense, you ARE allowing people to give good reports and joyous stories as they are set free, moving on, growing in grace, all of it.
There is reform going on in the Body, make no mistake, it just isn’t going on in ALL the Body parts….but it is still the power of God..it is still good, and it will eventually impact the rest of the Body. How? – only God knows.
These blogs are where the reform is taking place.
Not too shabby for a bunch of disgruntled, slanderous, gossipping, bitter and battered sheep..that God would STILL work through us to bring about change, eh?
March 24th, 2009 at 5:33 pm
Hi Canary,
“I want to put a question out to everyone who is voting “no”. Isn’t it possible that we might, through this blog, help set a fire in the hearts of those reading, so THEY can be used on the inside by the Lord for reform?”
The blogs: Some members are waking up. There’s something like a Kübler-Ross grief cycle as they lose their naïvité. Other members send hate mail.
SGM is not going to change its polity. The leaders are content to tell you that if you don’t like SGM, you can leave. They will help you leave, if it comes to that.
But, getting back to the members, an overwhelming majority of them are authoritarian followers. SGM does not have a democratic culture.
March 24th, 2009 at 6:25 pm
Juli: There is reform going on in the Body, make no mistake, it just isn’t going on in ALL the Body parts….but it is still the power of God..it is still good, and it will eventually impact the rest of the Body. How? – only God knows.
Me: This is so good. I easily forget that the church is not THIS local church or that SGM church, it’s the body of Christ, universal. And that is where we should be praying for reform–within each member of the body of Christ, within the individuals of SGM. If reform to the church universal, the members of Christ’s body, meant the disintegration of SGM, then that would be a good thing. Maybe that is how His dear children within SGM will experience true reform, by learning they are a royal priesthood and have direct access to the Father without the need for SGM to mediate or be their covering. 2 Timothy 1:12
March 24th, 2009 at 6:34 pm
Jim,
Thanks. So there is room for hope. What I can’t ever forget is how the Lord mercifully revealed to my heart, alone in my bedroom, the error of my thinking, and my pharisiacal nature. Me, a humble little yellow canary, of little importance to anyone but my family. Why me? Why did He set me free? I could have remained in the SGM bubble, following what seemed to be right in my eyes. I was guilty of judging others, imposing rules on others (as well as myself), idolizing leaders, being lazy in my faith…need I go on? Oh, there was selfish ambition within me, as well.
So why me? Why would the Living God have mercy on this simple soul, and not have mercy on men like CJ, Brent, or even the saints who still follow these men so blindly? That is why I must have hope. I did not receive revelation from any man or woman but from God. Suddenly, my eyes were opened. Why have mercy on me, and not on leaders and members of SGM?
When Paul was a Pharisee, when he persecuted Christians, there would have been a “negative” on whether he would ever change. Yet, the Lord mercifully met him on the road to Damascus, making His enemy His friend.
So Julie and Skinner, thanks for answering my question. Though I see where you are coming from, I cannot forget that the Lord gave a little tweety like me revelation, and saved me from great error. Therefore, I must still have hope for my brothers and sisters in SGM, that He can give them revelation as well. Even CJ and Brent.
March 24th, 2009 at 6:52 pm
Canary,
I love your heart….. and you are so right…
As far as our situation goes and our former church, we are hopeful.
March 24th, 2009 at 8:00 pm
In the midst of all this, I keep thinking of Saul/Paul. At the time, there was no greater persecuter to the bocd of Christ, and look what happened to him. I don’t think we can/should limit what our G-D can do. Who will say that this situation is any greater than the heart of hatred and destruction to the believer this man had?
Only G-D truly knows the heart of man, and HE knows what is needed to bring this hope about. If HE can heal (and HE does), what is it to HIM to create new wine skins out of existing ones? If HE can heal the demoniac, can HE not renew hearts to righteousness. In the midst of all this, I have to believe that I serve, love, worship, and long for, a mighty G-D.
March 24th, 2009 at 8:07 pm
HappyMom,
If you can have hope after what you went through with SGM, then I am in very good company.
Mimi,
Amen and amen.
March 24th, 2009 at 11:14 pm
HappyMom,
Your soft heart towards God causes my heart to rejoice.
Your hope gives me hope.
March 25th, 2009 at 12:17 am
Quiz time…………….
If you voted #1………. the best way to bring reform from within SGM is to…….
A) write a letter to your sr. pastor bringing observations and recommendations for change
B) write a similar letter to your regional apostle
C) call for a meeting of all your pastors and care group leaders to share your ideas for change
E) volunter to establish a board of unpaid elders
F) all of the above
if you voted #2 …………..the best way to bring reform from outside SGM is to……..
G) write a comment on this blog
H) write a letter to your friends still in a SGM church explaining why you left
I) invite your friends to join you on Sunday at a non-SGM church
J) pray for your former pastors
K) give your tithes and offerings to a non-SGM church that is living out the Gospel
L) all of the above
N.S.L.B.
March 25th, 2009 at 12:27 am
Hi Mimi,
I’ve been reading this blog for several weeks along with my wife, Bree. As some of you may know, we’ve recently left our SGM church.
In relation to your comment about Paul, I think you present an important point that we should not forget that our God is powerful enough to convert even the true “chief of sinners.” I think it’s also important to note, however, that Saul was part of a group of persecutors called the Pharisees. And when God chose to call him out of that life, he also called him away from and in direct opposition to that organization.
It is my hope that God will cause great change in the hearts of the leaders of SGM, however, I also believe that the story of Paul may provide precedence that reform as it is needed within SGM, may require coming apart from them, and ultimately in SGM being leveled and rebuilt.
My vote is #2. My reason is the pervasive nature of “the cross-centered life.” The entire organization is built around a core set of principles that are arguably unbiblical. And at the least unsupported. I would liken it to the doctrine of covenant family within the OPC (Orthodox Presbyterian). To remove that core principle would be to destroy the very fabric of the denomination. This is not to criticize the covenant family, only to draw a parallel.
March 25th, 2009 at 12:38 am
Quizzler,
Obviously, the three couples in Chesapeake did “F”, and we’ll what see the long term effect will be.
My thought is this-what if three (or more) similarly high profile couples did “F” in every SGC in the month of April?
March 25th, 2009 at 1:51 am
Seeker of Truth: My vote is #2. My reason is the pervasive nature of “the cross-centered life.” The entire organization is built around a core set of principles that are arguably unbiblical. And at the least unsupported.
I would to share something in my mind that has popped up several times in the last few weeks. I don’t really understand all the negative feelings about the cross centered life. It is obvious that somewhere in the last decade plus things changed. The cross I celebrate, Yes, celebrate because it is empty! The emphasis on sin came after I was gone so I wasn’t indoctrinated in that. Whew!!
Back to the story…… In the early 90’s I remember being seated next to CJ at a lunch meeting with a friend of mine. The friend mentioned how they wished there would be more teaching on the cross because we never had any teaching on the cross. I remembered that I agreed with the friend. Soon after we started getting some teachings on the cross. In fact it continued until I left. Its been a long time ago and thats all I remember but can you believe it. Now everyone is saying , Please,,,,,, ENOUGH! Things changed but then they stuck. Remember that phrase “Be careful what you ask for”?
March 25th, 2009 at 2:25 am
Great positive dialog on this issue.
I earlier posted my response that I don’t think change is possible within the existing SGM structure. As several other posted comments noted, God can certainly choose to change any of us, any organization or church. Unfortunately, given the legal structure, self image established by SGM corporate leaders and a few individual SGM church leaders, much change is required – both a willingness to change and actual, substantial change.
In organizations like SGM, change does not come quickly. All too often, it requires a crisis of some type to initiate the change process. Sometimes, the crisis is small enough or of sufficiently short duration that the illusion of change can tide things over long enough to let the crisis pass. In other instances, a single major crisis or multiple incidents can combine to provide sufficient fuel to cause true reformation.
In churches facing crisis, the most frequent issues seem to be:
Some issue of major public failure by the public high-profile leader. To cause a level of crisis necessary to motivate change, the failure or offense generally has to be one that those outside of the church (and even non-believers) recognize the conduct as a moral or legal failure. Such incidents have a terrible and painful effect on the members and cause harm to the Church as a whole.
A significant and continuing decline in attendance that results in a significant decline in financial income. This decline in attendance can come as a result of general dissatisfaction with the church or the leadership. The loss of income eventually provokes a crisis in both the local church and in SGM “corporate” due to declining contributions flowing to the denominational leadership.
A significant and continuing decline in churches affiliated with the SGM Brand. If long-standing churches start leaving over issues of doctrine or the nature of SGM leadership’s interaction/interference with local church leadership, there is both a financial consequence and one of credibility for SGM leadership. Several mainstream denominations have been facing this crisis for the past few years.
All of this can be very complicated and pain-filled for individual members and congregations. Depending on the degree to which individual churches have ceded their local governance and legal structure to control of SGM directly – or to hand-picked SGM pastors shuttled into place as replacements for those removed from the church leadership.
Possibilities two and three (decline in membership or member churches) are the most likely crisis situations to take place. They generally come as a result of an awakening within the church and pointed questions posed by the members. This awaking can come from a prompting of the Holy Spirit, issues raised by external authorities of broad credibility, or a combination of the two.
At this point, we can only guess how and when God will choose to bring change to the SGM leadership. Those of us who have been harmed by the PDI/SGM leadership will heal and, through God’s grace, have or will have a church home with healthy fellowship and wise leaders. We must continue to pray for those that may be harmed by ill-considered or sinful behavior. We must also continue to pray for SGM leaders to be filled again with the Holy Spirit and to have the true humility to seek God’s leading, rather than their personal image.
March 25th, 2009 at 6:19 am
Hi Seeker,
I certainly undersand what you are saying….As Jim says, we are all entitled to our opinion, and we need to respect each other.
For me, I am simply saying, that I see know, and live in daily miracles our G-D is responsible for. There is no way, I can say in my heart, that I believe reform in SGM, from the inside out, is impossible for the G-D I know to perform.
Do I think it will happen? I don’t know.
Do I believe it CAN happen? Emphatically yes. Isn’t that what the resurrection is all about? Looking past the cross and making the impossible possible. Jesus was not the only one who died that day on Calvary, BUT HE is the only one who rose and still lives. If my G-D can accomplish that, how pliable are a few fleshly men in HIS hands. How can I say to HIM, “this one is too hard for YOU?”
MiMi
March 25th, 2009 at 9:09 am
Seeker of Truth-
Thanks for joining in!
March 25th, 2009 at 10:06 am
I have to vote # 2 – No.
Why? Because SGM sees nothing wrong with the core of who they are as a denomonation , er excuse me, a “family of churches”. As mentioned, the “humble” leadership seems to miss the issues of the heart and core of what sgm believes. Change can never happen until the the issues of the hearts of the leadership are changed and the core beliefs are deconstructed. SGM’s core beliefs are the very essance of their brand of Christianity. With in the confines and bondage of that system, real change can not happen.
March 25th, 2009 at 10:20 am
Jim,
You asked on March 23rd, 2009, Let’s Take a Poll!
http://sgmrefuge.com/2009/03/23/lets-take-a-poll/
“Is reform possible within SGM?”
Then you most graciously said:
“Thank you in advance for your participation.”
SOAPBOX
Sopy says:
No
Non
Nr
Nein
Não
Нет
*
Etc…
In any language, for dat matter…
The gates O’hell shall not prevail!
The gates O’hell shall not prevail!
The gates O’hell shall not prevail!
The gates O’hell shall not prevail!
The gates O’hell shall not prevail!
The gates O’hell shall not prevail!
The gates O’hell shall not prevail!
The gates O’hell shall not prevail!
Mr. Mahaney, Jesus’ gots your number.
Jesus does not take kindly ta Woofie Shepherds jack’in His Sheep.
Jesus is coming — With all of heaven…
Bedder hide, buster. .>snicker<
Millstone Baby!
One Size fits all.
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah!
Your welcome Jim, anytime, anywhere…
In a little,
In Christ,
Sopwith
P.S. MiMi, Gr8 words! Gota love it! Your value of your words is beyond measure!
March 25th, 2009 at 11:13 am
How can I say to HIM, “this one is too hard for YOU?”
Beautiful words, Mimi. If I didn’t have hope that our Lord can do anything (even change a Saul to a Paul), then I could not be on this blog. I do believe that the “insiders” who follow so willingly can be touched and have revelation, just like the rest of us did, by HIS mercy. Maybe then the leaders will see a miracle that will change their thinking – many sheep breaking form, stampeding around the leaders to run to the cross, past it, and on into maturity as they find that JESUS HAS RISEN!
If a shepherd has no sheep, who is he, then?
If a leader has no one following, what does that make him?
I pray for the refreshment of the Holy Spirit in the saints at SGM, the one that was stopped so suddenly in the mid 90’s. Have your way, Lord! Speak to your people, one by one, in a group, in their cars, alone in their bedrooms, where ever anyone is listening and hungering for Your presence. Speak Lord, and let no man stop another man from hearing.
March 25th, 2009 at 12:17 pm
Quizzler,
Or…
What if current SGM members spent the remaining days of March doing a thorough study of the tithe, and how it relates to New Covenant believers. IOW, what does the NT say about the tithe? Deeper thinkers should determine what practices of those under the Old Covenant should be practiced by NC believers.
My thoughts are that this is not a complex issue.
So, what if those with a Biblical conviction that the tithe has no place in the Christian’s life voted with their wallets during the month of April? A thorough examination of their local SGC’s most recent financial statement, along with an examination of SGM’s financial statement (found on their website) would help people determine if they agree with their leaderships use of their contributions.
So, what if 10 percent
of all SGM members came to the conclusion that they were under no Biblical compulsion to tithe, and were less than thrilled with how their contributions were spent, and decided to take April off?
I indulge in all of this online pondering to encourage those who feel that any grassroots efforts towards reform would have no effect.
Rank and file members have much more power than they realize.
Members in a denomination which gives them no voice have two options-they can vote with their feet, or vote with their wallets.
March 25th, 2009 at 12:52 pm
Rank and file members have much more power than they realize.
That’s so right, Jim, if the members get together and figure it out. Think. Research. Don’t get me started on the tithe…oy. However, groups of people would have to come together and stand strong as they approach leadership. As we’ve seen in the past, leadership can easily stand against one or two people, who end up having to leave the organization. When the valiant three couples rose up to help Esther, they were able to make a small difference. It will take many more members coming together to say, “enough” for leadership to actually be forced to listen and rethink their ways.
Like I said earlier, if a leader has no one following him, what does that make him?
March 25th, 2009 at 1:12 pm
I am going to put my opinion here also.
I vote for 2. As others have said all things are possible with God.
Just like others, I am quite skeptical that it will happen, short of something major shocking the group. As others have said, they may be a “victim” of their own success. It appears that it is quite hard for leadership within SGM to accept that they are doing and have done things wrong when their group appears to be doing so well.
They also have to admit there is a problem. Many times admitting there is a problem makes one well on the way to solving a problem. At least one email that I have seen from someone up high in SGM leadership shows that at least this person doesn’t even understand the point of the blogs.
I am hopeful but change may require what Sad but Free shared.
There would also have to be some “skeletons” in their close they would have to deal with. One good example is how Tomczak appears to have been forced out of the group. I am sure it would/will be hard for Mahaney ever acknowledge any wrongdoing in his part of what happened to Tomczak.
Thus it is possible but highly unlikely IMO.
March 25th, 2009 at 1:42 pm
Sadbutfree,
I hope that one day soon you can change your name to “Joyfulandfree”. Hugs from a joyful Canary who used to be very sad.
March 25th, 2009 at 1:51 pm
I think everyone would agree that if God alone was the determining factor of reform, then certainly we’d all vote #1 because we know Himto be loving and gracious and forgiving….but, since man does have a responsibility in this, and repentance (internal change) is required for external change or reform to take place…I voted #2.
Certainly God does not want any to perish or not repent as His Word says, but clearly not everyone DOES repent. Without getting into the doctrinal reasons for this..I’d simply say that it is obvious to me that, given the present and previous circumstances within SGM, man’s ability to choose and respond to truth is in full force…and yet God is also working at full force..these two truths run concurrently, but not necessarily in tandem.
The people in question (those who have hurt others, abused authority, encouraged idolatry, fostered legalism, etc.) have been given every opportunity (for many years, not just in the past year) to know truth, repent, change their minds, and make “restitution”, seek forgiveness, etc…but they have done none of it. So until that happens, reform is impossible in my mind. I think the blogs are the final call by God to repent – simply because the blogs are SO over the top obvious in that they are the shouting from the rooftops that something is wrong…to wake up…to take notice. Yet there is still no notice being taken, still the same self-righeousness, blame-shifting, avoidance and denial, power-posturing, etc.
March 25th, 2009 at 2:41 pm
I vote #2. I agree with Sad, but Free when he said:
“All of this can be very complicated and pain-filled for individual members and congregations. Depending on the degree to which individual churches have ceded their local governance and legal structure to control of SGM directly – or to hand-picked SGM pastors shuttled into place as replacements for those removed from the church leadership.”
I don’t know how not tithing would help, they would kick you out. Going to the pastors would get you kicked out, too. Even in a group. It happened in a church that I am familiar with. At least 30 percent of the people left in the months following a family meeting with Brent. There are now more members now than there was then. (And also a new senior pastor.)
SGM learned from what happened with the Ohio church. They have legal control of all assets and members have none. They put guys in that will do what SGM wants and get rid of those that don’t have the proper “gifting”. Even if everyone in a church left, SGM would still own the property.
I DO think that God can change anyone and anything, but whether SGM will be changed by turning their hearts toward God or by being changed by God crushing them remains to be seen. :/
March 25th, 2009 at 3:07 pm
Ellie,
That’s a bit scary to know that, Even if everyone in a church left, SGM would still own the property. Is it this way for most churches? In other words, SGM members have made a few men quite wealthy. Not judging hearts, but that seems like suspicious fruit to me. Are these men SO trusted by the folks that follow, that questions are not asked about where all the money goes? I use to trust these Big Guys when they would give their speeches on our duty to tithe, believing they had no selfish agenda involved. Was I wrong? If I was still there today, I’d be asking questions. I have learned through hard experience that it is dangerous to give so much of your trust to any man or organization that claims to have authority over you. This leaves to much room for error.
March 25th, 2009 at 3:44 pm
In different states there are ways to view corporate documents. In Florida, we use sunbiz.org. The board of directors of individual incorporated churches in SGM seem to control the assets.
March 25th, 2009 at 8:43 pm
For the sake of the limited questions, easy day, #1, Ephesians 1.11
All who disagree have no faith (playing along Jim)
But also, if #4 actually existed: is reform necessary
When I hear reform in the 21st century American (it’s all about me), I hear, “major hall to suit my desires to make it more like what I want.”
Certainly there have been major issues, but every organization has had major issues.
March 25th, 2009 at 8:48 pm
“Certainly there have been major issues, but every organization has had major issues.”
I think I have a quote about his some where on here. Moral relativism on parade. yeee haawwww
LOL
March 25th, 2009 at 9:07 pm
Note: the word “haul” should have been, “overhaul”.
March 25th, 2009 at 9:43 pm
Shout! (Housetops Are Optional)
*
*
Shout, Shout, Let it all out….
“These are the things I can do without”,
Come on….
I’m talking to you…SGM
Come on….
They really, really ought to know…
They shouldn’t have to sell their souls…
They shouldn’t have to kiss their “freedom” in Christ, Good Bye!
We’re experiencing a tape worm from the depths of hell…
I hope we live to tell the tale…
Shout, Shout, Let it all out….
“These are the things I can do without”,
Come on….
I’m talking to you…SGM
Come on…. (1)
HowDee, Ya’All,
SOAPBOX: When Paul wrote the second letter to the Christians at Corinith, specifically the 9th chapter, he did not have a 501 (C) (3) ; a non-profit, tax-free corporation in mind. (2)
What?
Mahaney Inc. AKA Sovereign Grace Ministries (SGM) pays no taxes.
So?
It has no members.
Huh?
[SGM] is, in itself, not a “church” in the scriptural sense, but a non-profit tax free corporation.
Not a church?
[SGM] It is not even accountable to the churches it “controls”.
Huh?
The 70 or so churches on United States soil controlled by SGM AKA C.J. Mahaney, have no say in how they are governed apart from upper leadership.
In the individual churches SGM controls –church members have no say as to how the money that is collected each Sunday is spent.
None at all.
Members have no say on church polity or changes to church polity.
None at all.
Members have no say or vote concerning day to day church operations.
Members, in fact, have no “vote” at all!
There are no elders or church board members.
There are no stewards (deacons) of the church.
There is no accountability–none whatsoever.
The SGM pastor’s college is not open to any “known” public scrutiny.
*
Which says nothing about those in the churches that are in “need”
*
Questioners and dissenters are removed.
Which begs the Question: Is this a place where you want to put your trust?
If so, then close your eyes and go back ta sleep, it’s all just been a “bad” dream.
You won’t even remember it in the morning…
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah!
Bruhahahahahahahahahahahahah!
Let me know if I “missed” someth’in. >snicker<
In little,
Sopy
******
Notes:
(Note: A word in confidence about this gift of yours…) (2)
Cor. 9:1-6 – Of course I know it is really quite superfluous for me to be writing to you about this matter of giving to fellow Christians, for I know how willing you are…
Indeed I have told the Macedonians with some pride that “Achaia was ready to undertake this service twelve months ago”. Your enthusiasm has consequently been a stimulus to many of them. I am, however, sending the brothers just to make sure that our pride in you is not unjustified. For, between ourselves, it would never do if some of the Macedonians were to accompany me on my visit to you and find you unprepared for this act of generosity!
We (not to speak of you) should be horribly ashamed, just because we had been so proud and confident of you. This is my reason, then, for urging the brothers to visit you before I come myself, so that they can get your promised gift ready in good time.
…But, having let you into my confidence, I should like it to be a spontaneous gift, and not money squeezed out of you by what I have said.
All I will say is that poor sowing means a poor harvest, and generous sowing means a generous harvest.
(Note: Giving does not only help the one who receives…)
Cor. 9:7-9 – Let everyone give as his heart tells him, neither grudgingly nor under compulsion, for God loves the man who gives cheerfully. After all, God can give you everything that you need, so that you may always have sufficient both for yourselves and for giving away to other people.
As the scripture says: “He has dispersed abroad, he has given to the poor; his righteousness remains forever.”
Cor. 9:10-14 – He, who gives the seed to the sower and turns that seed into bread to eat, will give you the seed of generosity to sow, and, for harvest, the satisfying bread of good deeds well done.
The more you are enriched by God the more scope there will be for generous giving, and your gifts, administered through us, will mean that many will thank God.
For your giving does not end in meeting the wants of your fellow-Christians. It also results in an overflowing tide of thanksgiving to God.
Moreover, your very giving proves the reality of your faith, and that means that men thank God that you practice the Gospel that you profess to believe in, as well as for the actual gifts you make to them and to others.
And yet further, men will pray for you and feel drawn to you because you have obviously received a generous measure of the grace of God.
Cor. 9:15 – Thank God, then, for his indescribable generosity to you!
****
Note(s):
(1) Adapted. “Shout”, Tears For Fears
(2) JB Phillips; 2Cor. chap. 9.
March 25th, 2009 at 10:23 pm
It would be very easy to add a #4: I”‘m outa’ there so who cares.“ The problem with that is, on a serious note, that we who have left, we who have been privileged to see the ”man behind the curtain” for who he really is, and have realized that there is no “Wizard of SGM” after all, just “very bad men,” all have very dear friends who continue to be duped into staying by that “Just one more meeting” mantra which appears to be pervasive when the proverbial “doo doo hits the fan” at a SGM Chucrh, like it has in Chesapeake, Gilbert, Fairfax, Denver, and I’m sure many others. Reform…that’s not where we should be putting our resources. Saving those who are still tentacled by the SGM Octopods, that’s where we need to place our efforts and time. There are many who need rescuing, and don’t even know the abuse they are living under. It’s like the Matrix!
March 25th, 2009 at 10:37 pm
Sop-
Tears for Fears?
What kind of Cajun music is that?
March 25th, 2009 at 11:04 pm
Jim said at March 25th, 2009 at 12:17 pm …………………….
“So, what if 10 percent of all SGM members came to the conclusion that they were under no Biblical compulsion to tithe, and were less than thrilled with how their contributions were spent, and decided to take April off?”………..and………. “Rank and file members have much more power than they realize. Members in a denomination which gives them no voice have two options-they can vote with their feet, or vote with their wallets. ”
This gets to the fundamental issue of forcing change in an organization. Organizational change is typically resisted by those in control of the organization. As long as the objectives of the leadership are being met, leadership will resist change. Change within an organization like SGM can only be initiated by the leadership, who will also control the direction and scope of the change. Change will only be allowed to the extent that it will sustain or improve the accomplishment of the goals of the leadership.
In SGM, the goals are often hidden from, or misunderstood by, the members of the organization (those in the pews). Only when the leadership’s goals are seriously threatened will real change be embraced. The most viable means of forcing change within an organization is to threaten the leader’s goals, or to threaten the future existence of the organization itself. At that point the leadership will have no choice but to enact change (out of self-preservation).
The most powerful means of forcing change within a corporate style organization is to threaten its financial stability. Individuals can do little on their own in this regard, but by
joining together with other like-minded people they can form a powerful force that can directly affect the financial stability of the organization. By withholding funds from the organization in sufficient quantity over a sufficient amount of time the leadership will have no choice but to enact change. The only other option for them would be to go out of business.
Until the leadership in SGM is faced with the prospect of going out of business they will resist any significant change, particularly if that change detracts from their tight control of the organization.
Bottom line……….if SGM is to be reformed it will have to be done from within. Members of SGM can affect reform but must impact the financial bottom line to do so.
So………for those of you who are seeking change within SGM churches, vote with your wallet……..and keep voting for as long as it takes.
Or………if you want a life-changing experience, follow the lead of those couples down in Chesapeake who tried to affect change from within by other means.
N.S.L.B.
March 25th, 2009 at 11:25 pm
My vote is #1.
To be honest I am a little skeptical about SGM as an organization starting to do a massive reform but I believe it is possible in the church I left.
March 26th, 2009 at 8:49 am
its home said:
“For the sake of the limited questions, easy day, #1, Ephesians 1.11
All who disagree have no faith (playing along Jim)
But also, if #4 actually existed: is reform necessary
When I hear reform in the 21st century American (it’s all about me), I hear, “major overhaul to suit my desires to make it more like what I want.”
Certainly there have been major issues, but every organization has had major issues.”
IH, I have great faith in God’s Sovereignty. So much so, that I’m fully aware that God is under no obligation to reform anything, or to answer my prayers in the affirmative. Ever.
So much for putting away the broad brush. “All who disagree…”
When I’m in the #2 camp (I fully admit that I go back and forth on this issue), it has nothing to do with my view of God. Look around-He allows a lot of things that all Christians would agree are sinful.
“Every organization” sounds like a dismissal and a cop out. Take your own poll. Email every pastor in you area and ask them what they think of your SGC. Many within the church at large who are aware of SGM consider them a weird little fringe group. For a denomination of your size, the stories of pastoral abuse of authority seem to be proportionately higher than “every organization”.
A “major overhaul” has little to do with my personal desires, other than the fact that there are people within SGM who I love. SGM by choice stands alone in their methodology. I would think it’s obvious that SGM’s leadership’s personal desires are the issue at hand. “Here’s how we do things, because this is how we want to do things. We answer to no one but ourselves” sums up their apparent stance.
I’m not looking forward to another blog war here. I’ve communicated privately with Its Home, and told him that I felt that his comment was baiting.
Please don’t take the bait, unless you feel that I’ve done a completely inadequate job in my response. Really-I’m sick of the blog wars.
March 26th, 2009 at 9:35 am
Its home said: When I hear reform in the 21st century American (it’s all about me), I hear, “major hall to suit my desires to make it more like what I want.”
Certainly there have been major issues, but every organization has had major issues.
The call for reform from within and without SGM is a call for SGM to return to true biblical, godly principles and to turn away from man centered rules and regulations, to turn away from wrong doctrine, to teach the whole Gospel, to love the sheep rather than abusing them, to steward the sheeps’ $$, etc in a God glorifying manner. Every organization has issues but I do not believe that they are major as you have stated. I do not believe that every organization is abusing their people and allowing others to abuse their people. I do not believe that every organization is teaching so much wrong doctrine and error. This is not about getting our own way. It is about God’s way as stated in His Word.
March 26th, 2009 at 10:34 am
I’ve been mulling over your poll, Jim. My first response is #2. No, change will not come. The appearance of chance may come. But real and actual, lasting change will not come.
But then I think well, if change comes, it will have to come from the top down, and God does amazing things in the hearts of men. So I have to believe that the Lord can speak to the top guys and change their hearts in their approach to church and ministry.
But I really think that if change comes it will be by the Spirit changing the hearts of men, not by members’ forcing their hands. When you are convicted that something is right, and someone tries to force you to do something different, you just dig in deeper to what you believe. It is the Holy Spirit who must move in their hearts to bring about the change, and we can pray to that end.
March 26th, 2009 at 10:59 am
Wonder Red, I completely agree with you that only the Holy Spirit can change the hearts of men.
However, sometimes God will use circumstances in our lives to draw us to repentance and change… especially if our hearts have been hardened to the gentle prodding of the Holy Spirit.
So, while I agree with you regarding true change vs. appearance of change, and the role of the Holy Spirit therein, I believe God uses His people to effect change in the hearts and lives of men.
Voting with feet and wallets is a very viable option to promote much needed change in SGM… IMHO.
March 26th, 2009 at 11:54 am
Carole:
re: your 10:59am (EST) post:
“I believe God uses His people to effect change in the hearts and lives of men.”
Amen!
And I’m still holding strong at #1
~John
March 26th, 2009 at 12:01 pm
Bonjour ! Monsieur Jim,
ce soit le chat du voisin criant !
Hahahahahahaha
Bénédictions sur la maison du jimP !
Dans un peu,
Le Sopy
March 26th, 2009 at 12:26 pm
Jim,
Blog War?
…“Wheres ma light saber?”
Ahhhhhhhhhhhh?
….will a bag of Fretos due?
hahahahahah!
In a little,
Sopy
March 26th, 2009 at 1:07 pm
Hi Carole, You’re so nice. I like reading your responses. I see what you are saying and I really do agree with you that God can use people to bring about His change. But don’t really have so much faith that it would happen that way in SGM. I just think that with the way SGM is set up, they are not programmed to listen to the people. The many, many stories on these blogs attest to that. Person after person, families, singles, kids going to the leadership of their churches either being shown the door or having the tables turned on them.
Why would their response be different these days?
March 26th, 2009 at 2:49 pm
I believe that God is sovereign, and meaningful change is possible. I have already voted, but enjoy the discussion. I would like to add this quote from CJ.
CJ from “The Pastors Priorities”
Occasions requiring the loving confrontation of a pastor in sin have been among the most difficult and painful of my ministry experience. But in the end, the corrective process has normally produced God-glorifying and fruitful outcomes in a pastor’s life, family, and church.
March 26th, 2009 at 6:18 pm
Jim said: “In different states there are ways to view corporate documents. In Florida, we use sunbiz.org. The board of directors of individual incorporated churches in SGM seem to control the assets.”
From what I have been able to ascertain from reading my state’s corporation pages, to view those documents, one has to register at the site and pay to view the images from microfilm. I don’t know if a record is kept of who views what images, though.
Most likely though, those on the “board” would be those that SGM would want to be on the board. Just like SGM puts those with more of a “gifting” :rolleyes: in as senior pastor and they put out those members whom they deem as “divisive” or those that question the leadership.
I believe that for reform to take place, that the Holy Spirit is going to have to do something that can not be humanly orchestrated. SGM, with all its lawyers and advisors, has made sure that any grassroots change by members will have little to no practical effect. ONLY by the power of God, the blood of Jesus, and the working of the Holy Spirit will sgm/PDI be changed.
March 26th, 2009 at 10:46 pm
PK…John…I know you and your wife. You guys moved not long after we got to our last SGM “stop.” We gave you boxes. :) I would love to chat with your wife/you about our final experience in SGM. Because you have way more history than we do.
Can you post your email? I don’t remember what it is.
Thanks,
Sid
March 27th, 2009 at 12:54 pm
SOAPBOX : Apparently, the Corrective Process Has Failed.
HowDee, Ya’All,
“Occasions requiring the loving confrontation of a pastor in sin have been among the most difficult and painful of any ministries’ experience.”
What?
“But in the end, the corrective process that “normally” would have produced God-glorifying and fruitful outcomes in Pastor C.J. Mahaney’s life, and church have “failed”.”
Mr. Mahaney, Ye blind guide, you strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel, –you look ridiculous. >snicker<
Walk a mile in your shoes, Mr. Mahaney?
Nah!
hahahahahahahahahahahahahah
In a little,
Sopwith
____
Note: (1) Ridiculous: adjective, from the Latin: ridiculosus (from ridiculum jest, from neuter of ridiculus) or ridiculus, literally, laughable, from ridēre to laugh
i.e. arousing or deserving ridicule : absurd , preposterous; see:laughable.
March 27th, 2009 at 4:25 pm
SOAPBOX : Abiding In Christ
HowDee, Ya’All,
I gots me a new toon a play’in…
It goes like dis:
“All the colors of the rainbow
All the voices of the wind
Every dream that reaches out
That reaches out to find where love begins
Every word of every story
Every star in every sky
Every corner of creation lives to testify
For as long as I shall live
I will testify to love
I’ll be a witness in the silences
when words are not enough
With every breath I take
I will give thanks to God above
For as long as I shall live
I will testify to love
From the mountains to the valleys
From the rivers to the sea
Every hand that reaches out
Every hand that reaches out to offer peace
Every simple act of mercy
Every step to kingdom come
All the hope in every heart will speak
what love has done
For as long as I shall live
I will testify to love
I’ll be a witness in the silences
when words are not enough
With every breath I take
will give thanks to God above
For as long as I shall live
I will testify….
I will testify to love
(For as long as I shall live
I will testify to love)
I’ll be a witness in the silences
when words are not enough
With every breath I take
Will give thanks to God above
For as long as I shall live
I will testify to love”
“Testify To Love” -Avalon
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TgZ1ds0WM2k
Abiding In Christ
Abide in me, Jesus, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can you, except you abide in me.
Abide in me! Abide in me! Abide in me! –Jesus
I, Jesus, am the vine, you are the branches: He that abides in me, Jesus, and I in them, the same will bring forth much fruit: for without me, Jesus, you all can do nothing!
Nothing! Nothing! Nothing!
If a person does not abide not in me, Jesus, they are cast forth as a branch, and that branch is withered; and laborers gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
What?
That’s right! –Da bad guys are gonna be toast. Cuz Jesus says so!
If ye abide in me, Jesus, and my words abide in you, you shall ask what you will, and it shall be done unto you.
I, Sopwith, indeed testify to you, the Word of God; but one mightier than I is coming, the laces of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: He is the One who has baptized you with the Holy Ghost and with fire: Whose winnow fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly purge His threshing floor, and will gather, (the fruits of His labors, purchased by is blood) –his “precious” wheat into His garner; but the chaff He will burn with unquenchable fire.
Therefore, choose this day whom you shall serve…
Hurry. Don’t take too long!
He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. And, behold, I, Jesus, come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I, Jesus, am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do His commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
For without are the Chaff—those dogs, sorcerers, whoremongers, murderers, idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
…the chaff He will burn with unquenchable fire.
Then there arose certain of SGM which is called the synagogue of the Perpetual Sin Sniffers disputing with Sopwith; And they were not able to resist the wisdom and the spirit by which he spake.
Praise God, Almighty! Glory to God!
Then they suborned men, which said, We have heard him speak blasphemous words against C.J Mahaney, and against SGM. And they stirred up the people, and the Care Group Leaders and the PC pastors. And set up false witnesses, which said, This man ceaseth not to speak blasphemous words against this holy place, and SGM polity: For we have heard him say, that this Jesus of Nazareth shall come and turn out the dogs.
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!
[Sopwith] –Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
Praise You Jesus!
In a little,
Sopy
March 27th, 2009 at 4:51 pm
Sopy,
Thanks for sharing the “Testify to Love” song on youtube. When “Mom’s Taxi” was in service (before my daughters started driving themselves everywhere), I used to blast that song and other popular Christian music in the car, and we we would sing at the top of our lungs. It was so much fun!!! Thanks for helping me relive that very fond memory.
March 27th, 2009 at 7:26 pm
Sopy!
I can’t believe that I’ve never heard that song before!! I’m playing it right now on Youtube and I’m going to check out their other songs – thanks!!!!
March 27th, 2009 at 9:20 pm
Hi Jim,
No, I’m not “baiting”; merely “playing along” as you mentioned.
Regarding the churches in my area, I think we need to consider which ones. There are many churches here with varying doctrines and beliefs, I’m not sure what you mean specifically.
Others,
btw: I’m not “dooped”, nor are my eyes closed, nor am I asleep in the light (neither are our friends) (maybe this was said in a different topic regarding those who stay at SGM). Thank you.
Like Jim wants to do, I too hope that the hyperbole will discontinue. That mutual respect can ensue.
Thanks.
March 28th, 2009 at 12:47 am
I have no respect for SGM.
Their playing with people’s lives by “standing in the very stead of God” has sown many poisonous seeds. Unfortunately, these seeds continue to sprout and grow and entwine their hellacious tentacles into my life and the lives of those I love even after we’ve left SGM, even to this very day. I pray that God doesn’t allow this to go on much longer.
March 28th, 2009 at 1:29 am
Wanda,
Your welcome!
I should be the one thanking you!
What a tower of strength you have been!
You “love” for Jesus’ lambs knows NO bounds!
I honor you!
…Heck, we all do here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
In a little,
Sopy (Where’s ma party hat?)
March 28th, 2009 at 1:40 am
HERO PARTY:
Yea!!!!!!!!!!! for Wanda!
His blessings to you!–ta serious overflowing!
Just for you:
We Will Stand- Avalon:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.....re=related
In a little,
Sopy
March 28th, 2009 at 1:47 am
Ellie,
Your so welcome!
Your posts have brought tears of joy to my eyes. Many times…
Yes, they have…
Jesus loves you so much!
May your flour barrow and your oil pitcher never, –no never be empty!
Your “Joy” fer tat matter!
Praise Jesus!
In a little,
Sopy
March 28th, 2009 at 9:47 am
Dear Sopwith,
I read your story over at survivors. I’m so sorry about your daughter. Your family is in our prayers.
Thank you so much for sharing those “abiding in the vine” verses. That is EXACTLY what the Lord has been sharing with me of late, (having nothing to do with SGM). Lots of challenges in my day, but when I ABIDE, there is grace. And oh, I need His Grace. Blessings to YOUR house!
Wanda,
I have the exact same memory of my daughters and I tooling along in the car, singing Avalon at the top of our lungs! Good times.
Ellie,
It’s good to see you. Sopwith is right! You bring joy and comfort here. We love you! { { { { { { Ellie } } } } } } :)
March 28th, 2009 at 10:27 am
And Carole smiled and said:
Sweet Gracie
March 28th, 2009 at 10:36 am
Aw, Jim and Carole, thanks. I needed that. Sometimes my flesh gets the better of me. I had to ask Kris to delete one of my posts the other day. Not too gracious, I’m afraid.
March 28th, 2009 at 10:38 am
Hence the Sweet Gracie title…
March 28th, 2009 at 11:22 am
I have never left a comment on yor site …I just recently found it thru a friend…. I am a sgmsurvivor…(or PDI survivor because that is how long I was in the church….) I do believe with God all things are possible but as far as seeing a change in SGM I have my doubts that they have any more chance of change than any church that shoots its wounded and heaps guilt on its brokenhearted. I pray for them and for the people who called themselves my friends when ever they had needs to be met. I also pray for myself and ask God to refresh me and to rid me of the anger and hurt that was inflicted on me by the self-righteous leadership at our church in FL
March 28th, 2009 at 11:48 am
Hi Martie,
Welcome! Thanks for joining in.
God will heal your heart-I wish I could tell you when, but I can say with confidence that He will.
March 28th, 2009 at 12:01 pm
Welcome Martie,
My heart emphasizes with yours! I understand the feelings of hurt and anger and betrayal from the arrogance from those intoxicated with their authority, too often forgetting where real authority comes from.
Would love to hear your whole story. It really help the healing process and also aids those of us who read it, both inside and outside of SGM. Real change in SGM will NOT come with His people remaining silent, even though leadership has built silence into their system of “church.”
In any case, welcome!!! May your heart heal as you realize HIS love for you–”no condemnation, no separation, and all things work together for good”
March 28th, 2009 at 2:27 pm
thank you for your kindness…One day soon I will share my story…. Right now I am realing from so many trials and frustrations which have come since we left the church… The enemy would love to convince me that the trials have come because of leaving sgm but I know it is a lie…. Those trials have not been simple…We lost our home to a foreclosure on our builder…He was financing our home…With the home went our equity of 20 years on the house we sold in FL…At the same time my husband’s company he worked for went belly up…. A month later(Feb) we lost a grandson and 4 days later my Mom …My husband was close to being killed in a tractor accident in Aprilwhile we lived at his brothers house in our RV but finally in May he got another job….. ( bad news was we had to leave our kids and grandkids and move to GA….) Now this past Tuesday my daughters son was still born …( We lost 2 grandsons in 13 months) So much so very much but I am clinging to Jesus…. The hurts from sgm involvement were buried but are now resurfacing because it is time to deal with them and cast them off…. I am glad I found your site…God is good…..I cling to Romans 5:1-5 It gives me hope ….. I am Joyfully His…( but not happy right now…ha)
March 28th, 2009 at 2:56 pm
Martie,
Awe, so sorry to hear of your heartbreaks and losses. Life in this time-bound world makes no sense at times. The enemy always wants us to buy into the lies of us NOT DOING enough for God, our Abba, Papa, Daddy to love us. NONE of what you described in your post are your fault or consequences of you leaving a SGM “church.” Your father adores you even when life makes absolutely no sense.
It is easy to wonder about God when things really go wrong; we’ve all been there! And it is OK with Him for you to express just that to Him. The truth is that when we run out of gas and find that we cannot pull life off anymore and that it makes no sense, that HE is there inviting us into HIS REST.
May I encourage you to find rest, grace, and peace behind the written word in the LIVING WORD. Real life and peace flow from intimacy with HIM. It is in Him that we find LIFE as the noise of the world is screaming otherwise. We pray for you and your family, Martie, as live above the noise of life.
March 28th, 2009 at 3:08 pm
Oh Martie, that is alot to bear. I’m so sorry about these difficulties. To add SGM stuff on top of it… we’ll be praying for you for that refreshing and healing you seek!
I remember feeling the same thing when we left PDI- that evil would befall us when we departed, but I stand with you in saying NO to this lie. Leaving SGM is NOT the same as leaving Christianity or Christ Himself. We are FREE to move on in Him. He is to be found EVERYWHERE! And so are His people.
Okay, there’s a little pep talk for you! Welcome to the site. Oh and by the way, I’m originally from Florida and now reside in GA too.
March 28th, 2009 at 3:18 pm
Thank you Grateful and Gracie for your kind words…I am so thankful for the encouragement you are sending my way! gracie I am in Warner Robins…. Are you anywhere close? I am getting kidnapped tomorrow by a friend from FL who also left SGM…She is dragging me ( not kicking and screaming) away from my enviornment for a week and letting me be refreshed…She and I study the Word together and spend much time in prayer…It is going to be grand!! I am looking forward and pressing on …..I am very ready for healing…. God bless you and thank you once again…I will write again after I get home next Sat……
March 28th, 2009 at 3:50 pm
Hi Martie,
Oh my sister, how can you bear it? I am so sorry for your many many trials. Who can fathom the heart of God?
There are so many wonderful churches in your area where you can go and be refreshed and rest. I sincerely hope you find one, and can enjoy joining with your brothers and sisters in worship and praise and teaching.
I am so glad you posted–you will find many to pray diligently for you here.
March 28th, 2009 at 4:42 pm
Martie:
The hearts and prayers of Protestant Dame and me go out to you. Come in and rest, and fall upon the sufficiency of your Savior. He is adequate, and He will never leave you or forsake you.
~John
March 28th, 2009 at 5:03 pm
Martie – I prayed for you just now, beloved of God…that you would find in His presence your stronghold, your peace, your power, and your praise. – Juli
March 28th, 2009 at 5:34 pm
How can I thank you enough for your kindness and gentleness towards me… i am so overwhelmed at the love God is showing me through you all…. I am longing for the peace you talk about and I know it will come with time. I am so overflowing with tears of gratitude! You are all most kind…..
March 28th, 2009 at 5:40 pm
I stand amazed at how the body heals itself as the antidote of “Christ in you the hope of glory” is disseminatedfrom one member to the other. This to me is the CHURCH, HIS BODY, functioning as intended! All glory to HIM as His life energizes His people.
March 29th, 2009 at 12:56 am
Martie
I am stopping in to read a little since I have been following some posts here in order to help a buddy of mine make some decisions. Well, I want you to know that my buddy’s wife had a bit of tearing up when she was given some encouragement from a person in another situation. The reason she was affected so is because her soul was raw from so much legalism in SGM.
I think this is similar to your tears.
God is amazing and his arms are holding you, day and night!
March 31st, 2009 at 1:39 am
Possible, but highly unlikely. Too many current members believe that SGM is great the way it is. That has always amazed me – so few have the willingness and courage to examine SGM beliefs and practices and challenge them.
March 31st, 2009 at 8:59 am
You know what is interesting about Martie’s appearance? I am still bowled over by Roy’s manipulation and lying. Funny how the sin of one moron casts shadows over my ability to trust another believer.
Martie, isn’t it wonderful to find people like my brothers and sisters here at the Refuge who care for you and weep for you and your pain? These guys are the real deal, you are safe here! Welcome!
March 31st, 2009 at 9:26 am
RT-
Is your gravatar a Violet?
I would have thought you’d want to use one of these.
March 31st, 2009 at 10:21 am
Erik…. So what you are really saying is for their to be reform there needs to be an entire change of governing philosphy. An entire shift in the way “leadership” aproaches those people in the pews?
by that definition SGM would cease to be SGM.
hummm… somebody needs to write a paper about that here pretty soon. Sounds like a good topic.
March 31st, 2009 at 10:28 am
I want the world to know that You’re the One, Jesus!
HowDee, Ya’All,
I’ze gots dis here toon gon’in round and round…
“I’m ready for the winds to change
I’m ready for a brighter day
I’m ready for the Son to shine, down on me!
I’m waiting for a song to sing
I’m looking for a brand new thing
I’m ready now to live a life –that I believe…
I want the world to turn because of love
And mercy to find each of us
Doing what we can –to just believe, yeah!
I want the world to know that You’re the One, Jesus
Who fills me up and gives me hope
And brings about this change that’s in me!
Ah yeah, I’m ready, yeah!
You know I’m ready now!
I’m ready for the truth to be
Something that can set us free, yeah…
Does anybody still believe we’ll make it through?
I’m ready now to take a stand
To live life for more than myself
Tell me now, my friend, are you ready, too?
I want the world to turn because of love
And mercy to find each of us
Doing what we can –to just believe, yeah
I want the world to know that You’re the One, Jesus
Who fills me up and gives me hope
And brings about this change –that’s in me!
Oh, I’m ready; yeah
You know I’m ready now!
I can’t sit around waiting for it all to change
It’s gonna take every single one of us doing what we can
There’s lots of fighting in this world but there’s so much loving, too
So take my hand, I’m ready now for you
I want the world to turn because of love
And mercy to find each of us
Doing what we can –to just believe
I want the world to know that You’re the One, Jesus
Who fills me up and gives me hope
And brings about this change –that’s in me!
Ah yeah, I’m ready, yeah!
You know I’m ready now! yeah, yeah, yeah
Lord knows I’m ready
You know I’m ready, yeah…
I’m ready for the winds to change
I’m ready for a brighter day…” (1)
*
Knows da scriptures, & da power of God!
I’ze not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation ta everyone that believes! I’ze remembers, the preaching of the cross is to dem dat perish foolishness; but unto us, which are saved, — it is the power of God! Yeah! So that we, which are called, –Christ is da power of God, and da wisdom of God. Dat our faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in da power of God– by da word of truth, by da power of God, by da armor of righteousness!
*
*
Christ in us, the hope of glory!
*
*
Yeah, Yeah, Yeah!
A brighter day is here TODAY!
In a little,
Sopy
____
Notes: (1) Adapted– Mac Powell, Third Day, Revelation: “Ready”
March 31st, 2009 at 11:35 am
Erik and John,
I tend to agree with you. While there are many sincere, godly believers at SGM, the key leaders have been there so long and have no other ideas about leadership other than the “shepherding” approach they have been operating under for decades. it would require new leadership or some type of spiritual tsunami to wake every one up.
Hi Erik, how are you and your family?
March 31st, 2009 at 12:22 pm
RT,
Jim sent you to a site on TULIPS!!!!! Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha!!!
March 31st, 2009 at 12:25 pm
yeah John..someone SHOULD write a paper about that
Martie – still praying for you!
Erik – I agree. But doubt it will happen. (CJ and company stepping down)
RT – I know what you mean about questioning since Roy’s story – but then I remember that even with Roy, the outpouring of trust, prayer, support and encouragement was not in vain. God saw the hearts of His people when they did that – and He knows the heart of Roy. He won’t be mocked, nor will His children.
God will deal with “Roy” appropriately, if He hasn’t already. I feel sorry for him. He’s a pathetic product of SGM idolatry.
March 31st, 2009 at 2:02 pm
Juli… what are you trying to say? LOL.
The post… Opps … the book is ready to go. Should go up in a couple of days.
March 31st, 2009 at 3:10 pm
John Immel,
Is this shameless free advertising, or do you pay Jim under the table?
Can’t wait to read your book…er…post! My kitty cat is getting quite annoyed with me, and I need something to shut him up…er, I mean, feed him.
March 31st, 2009 at 5:56 pm
Jim, ROFL–I always use a pansy, I think they are a symbol of grace and strength, really the only plant that grins and actually flowers through the harshest of winters.
Maybe when they die off from the heat, I’ll switch over to good old TULIPs.
Thanks for the laugh, my friend.
March 31st, 2009 at 6:24 pm
John has free reign to promote his propaganda here
Seriously, we may not agree, but I think that John is a voice that should be heard.
We definitely don’t agree on his Facebook photo.
April 1st, 2009 at 9:28 pm
Hi All…I just want to thank you who are praying for me for all the prayers. I am in FL with a friend who also left sgm church. I have introduced her to your website. I know it will be a help to her and her husband as well….
I have felt your prayers. The Lord has been gracious and I am starting to lean on Him more as my heart heals. You just don’t realize how amazing it has been for me to know you guys are out there in cyberspace somewhere going through the healing process as well. I had opportunity this week to talk to another friend who is trying to figure out if she and her husband should leave sgm. I didn’t answer for her but I did share my personal experiences after leaving the church and how God has met me since then. I don’t think bashing sgm would be helpful in helping her to see truth so I shared the truth I am learning. She was opened at the end of our conversation to expressing her concerns about the lack of scripture support she was finding for a lot of doctrine she has been dealt…. I am praying for her and her husband…..
I am finding that as I focus on the wonderful things God has done in my life over the past 3 years the terrible things are starting to not sting as deeply.( my friend here in FL is helping me look at things in this way) One day I will be so much better as I keep focusing on Jesus and His righteousness. One of the things I noticed when I was a part of Newlife (sgm) was that Jesus name was seldom mentioned in a message and teaching about a personal relationship with Him was not a priority. It has been a great healing element to get back to walking things out with Jesus leading me. I am so overwhelmed with His patient mercy and kindness even when I walked a path that wasn’t honoring to Him.( I think my time with sgm was not honoring or glorifying to God but it did cause me to question myself and examine my faith)
When I return to GA I will write my story for all of you to see. When I write it I hope that it will benefit someone else who is trying to break free from the bondage of sgm and all the legalism. I am so glad to know the truth and to feel more free than I have felt in a long time in my Christian walk. Bless the Lord oh my soul and all that is within me bless His holy name!!!!
April 1st, 2009 at 10:40 pm
Hi Martie! We are looking forward to your story and so very glad you are doing better. For me, it is redemption to be here and help others through similar journeys. It brings purpose to those difficult times.
By the way, Warner Robbins is about two hours from me. We’re practically neighbors in this cyberspace world!
April 2nd, 2009 at 12:25 am
Martie,
It is good that you are focusing on Jesus! I’m so glad to hear that He is healing you. His balm is so good…
April 2nd, 2009 at 12:29 pm
Martie–
Such good news, that you are finding a closer walk with Jesus, who loves you and wants to commune with you!
One of my favorite ancient hymns, The Sands of Time are Sinking, has a great verse–about a bride, coming down the aisle to her beloved man, who is captured with the expression of love on his face. She cannot see her gown, her veil, only him and his glorous face, filled with love for her.
The bride eyes not her garment,
But her dear Bridegroom’s face;
I will not gaze at glory
But on my King of grace.
Not at the crown He giveth
But on His pierced hand;
The Lamb is all the glory
Of Emmanuel’s land.
I hope you and your friends enjoy Jesus’ love for you, his passion for you and his Bride, today.
April 3rd, 2009 at 6:27 am
How do you “Reform” “something” that is a 501(c)(3) non-profit corporation, that has no members, that has declared itself essentially non-religious, when it (SGM) in fact technically masquerades as a church that bears “The Name Of Jesus” ?
Has it has been said of old:
“I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another…”
-Isaiah 42:8
April 6th, 2009 at 8:39 am
No, I don’t think SGChes or SGAnything will reform itself. It believes what it believes, and it is what it is. As long as they isolate themselves from the greater Christian community, they will continue with their long-standing practice of spiritual elitism. Those two tendencies alone will keep them where they’re at.
April 6th, 2009 at 2:09 pm
Mllertime,
Just as long as it’s NOT: SGM =This Bud’s fer you! >snicker<
Hahahahahahah!
Sopwith
April 6th, 2009 at 2:19 pm
Millertime: very accurate. I agree completely.
April 6th, 2009 at 2:26 pm
Sopwith,
I think the more appropriate quote would be, “Tastes great! Less filling!” Can’t remember what beer commercial promises this.
April 6th, 2009 at 3:36 pm
Canary,
Plug dis in ta Youtube: omB-HVs6sRw
..don’t get any “Ideas” though… >he he<
In a little, ;~)
Sopy
P.S. When you said dis, I fell outa ma chair:
“The Greek word for “authority” is hegeomai, which means “to guide, to lead, to go before”. Frank describes this in “Who Is Your Covering”, on page 35-36. He says that hegeomai means:
“Watching over rather than bossing
Superintending rather than dominating
Facilitating rather than dictating…a shepherd who cares for and supervises the sheep rather than one who drives them from behind, or rules them from above.”
This is such a more healthy way of looking at “authority”. In the end, God has the final say in our lives, however. Our freedom in Christ is too precious to ever relinquish again.”
Yous one “Super” Canary! ;~)
April 6th, 2009 at 4:29 pm
Quiz time……………..
Match the motivating term with the correct animal type toward which it is used.
A) to lead
B) to drive
Sheep____
Cattle_____
For extra credit
Based on SGM’s favored motivation method, which type of animal would be best suited to their method of motivation?
April 6th, 2009 at 4:56 pm
Quizzler,
COWS! Sheep are led because they are normally docile creatures. Cows are driven. When one heads for a cliff, the whole herd will follow, unless some guys on horses drive them into the other direction…
Sopy,
You’re funny. You know, I read the Amplified bible because it gives a better definition of the Greek, which is so difficult to translate into English. I enjoy when someone actually pulls out a word such as “authority” and explains what was really menat by its use!
April 6th, 2009 at 7:40 pm
Canary……………..you are so right (give yourself an A and extra credit too)! Sheep are gentle and basically defenseless creatures that respond to loving leadership and know the voice of their shepherd whom they follow.
Cattle, on the other hand, are driven from place to place (think of the TV series Rawhide). They are not overly bright and as you said will stampeed over a cliff.
While this little quiz may seem silly, it speaks directly to the manner in which SGM relates to the flock/herd (body). Thier overly forceful and pushy leadership is much better suited to the movement of cattle - than it is to gentle sheep.
Would you rather be lead or driven???
Did Jesus lead or drive others???
so many questions……………so little time.
No Sheep Left Behind (N.S.L.B.)
April 20th, 2009 at 11:20 pm
Saw a link to this. Absolutely it is possible. Lots of destructive evil cults have reformed and become legitimate churches. SGM problems are pretty easy to fix Things like a legitimate appeals process for discipline and more openness would probably fix 60%+ of the abuses at SGM. Deciding whether they want to have an episcopal structure and if so doing it openly and having proper safeguards, or moving to a real congregational structure would fix quite a few others.
All it takes is their leadership’s desire to change. And frankly as their leadership starts to not be treated as the leaders of a legitimate church that will happen. I can’t think of a church better suited for even moderate public pressure.
Keep up the good work.
April 21st, 2009 at 1:22 am
CD-Host, thanks for writing. You said, “Lots of destructive evil cults have reformed and become legitimate churches.” Would you mind giving the names of these destructive evil cults? That would be really helpful and encouraging as well. Thanks.
April 21st, 2009 at 2:17 am
Sure here are examples:
Worldwide church of God. Used to be shocking legalistic where people were excommunicated for things like using cosmetics. As well as doctrinially off the wall. Today no one accuses them of being abusive and most evangelicals would say they are at least as orthodox as liberal christian churches.
A very large group of Millerites had develped a lot of highly cultic doctrines. For example the philosophy called “shut door” that salvation was not longer possible for man, the door to heaven had shut in 1844. A variety of Millerite leaders like Ellen White started reforming the movement and pulling it back towards the mainstream. Today the Seventh Day adventists while not quite evangelical are kissing cousins and Christian.
Going back even further:
The Dominicans. This started as an anti-heretical group which caused them to become anti-corruption. When conversation failed to convince the Albigensians (Cathars) they turned to genocide, and went on became the backbone of the inquisition. But there anti-corruption spirit influenced the entire Augustinian movement they also became the backbone of the protestant reformation. In other words this genocidal cult reformed and a few hundred years later would lead to the reformation of all of Christianity.
Brüder und Schwestern des Freien Geistes (Brethren of the Free Spirit) was a semi Christian cult consisting of a group of peasants who rejected all authority; robbed from the church and nobility, and were involved in raping, pillaging from town to town to break up social structures. There ideas like priesthood of the believer and the equality of all men before God helped them turn into the Lollards (forerunners to the Episcopalians), Waldensians (intellectual forerunners to the Baptists)…. So you can see even in the most extreme cases a few centuries can make a huge difference.
April 21st, 2009 at 11:47 am
Hi CD-host,
I have been reading hear for a while, but decided that I must respond to your post. The Seventh-day Adventist church may have made changes over the years, but Ellen White did not reform the church to make it more evangelical. She made it cultic. Adventist look to her unbiblical writings to interpret the Bible. The Lord called me out of Adventistm several years ago. I went to SDA schools through college and Adventism goes back several generations in my family so I have alot of exerience and baggage. You can find preachers that teach grace, but they are few and far between and most of them will say that you must keep the 7th day sabbath to be accepted by God. Several years ago the president of the SDA church made a statement that he would be in jeapordy of losing his salvation if he left the SDA church. For more info check out http://www.formeradventist.com/ and http://undermuchgrace.blogspot.....-cult.html for a video.
Several months ago I was led to this sight because I was looking for a quote from CJ Mahaney. I ended up on SGM surviors and then here. I had no idea the problems that were going on in the “Happiest Place on Earth.” My current church is not sgm, but they look up to SGM and I think at one time thought to become part of the network. I think they even try to model some of the things that SGM does. I used to see things that would send up a little red flags, but I would ignore it. I praying that God will give me and my family wisdom as we struggle with “should we stay or should we go” from our present church.
Jesus is my Sabbath rest.
xsda
April 21st, 2009 at 12:43 pm
Xsda –
Well I took a look at former adventist website and I couldn’t find much about the 1844-1849 period. Could you point me to a specific page on it so I have some idea what exactly you believe White did to make the group more extreme than it was? I’m losing your thread here.
And I agree that are not Protestants, I called the kissing cousins and I stand by that. The Lordship debate (do we we need to submit to Christ’s lordship or just have faith in the effectiveness of his sacrifice to trust in Christ alone) I think is a legitimate split between protestants. Clearly SDA is on the Lordship side.
So really it then comes down to what acts can be openly practiced, and which are sins. By and large the list is pretty similiar between SDA and protestants, no major divergences. There are some minor divergences on areas having to do with things like dietery codes. Finally there are some hermaneutical differences and they reject more “unbiblical tradition” (like Sunday sabbath)
You interpret the bible using schemes from writers like Luther and Calvin, they use a very similar scheme from Ellen White. From their statement of beliefs: One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and was manifested in the ministry of Ellen. G. White . As the Lord’s messenger, her writings are a continuing and authoritative source of truth which provide for the church comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction. They also make clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested. (Joel 2:28, 29; Acts 2:14-21; Heb. 1:1-3; Rev. 12:17; 19:10.)
Conversely reformed protestants use systematic theologies for authorative source of the truth on matters of doctrine, instruction and correction derived from the bible by which all teaching is tested. I don’t see that much of a difference. I don’t want to take us too far off topic but there are lots of ways to read the bible.
As for using “the apologetics group” for a neutral definition of cult…. this is a group which is openly identifying itself with reformed Christianity. I could pull you similar definitions from Catholic sites that show how presbyterians are unbiblical heretics. I have a 100 question cult test on my blog which IMHO is far more neutral.
April 21st, 2009 at 1:09 pm
As a follow up I found that “Questions on Doctrine” which a book of Adventist questions phrased in Protestant language is online. It came out of the Adventists / Evangelical dialogues of the late 50s and early 60s. It is generally considered a pretty fair book (with critics on both sides) and is probably a good read for people who do want to follow up on the how close to Protestants are Adventists.
April 21st, 2009 at 2:27 pm
Hi CD,
Here are some sites from the “Related Websites” section of http://www.formeradventist.com/
Shut door: Ellen White had visions supporting the Shut Door doctrine.
http://www.ellenwhiteexposed.com/egw15.htm
Questions on Doctrine: That book was in response to Walter Martin’s book Kingdom of the Cults.
http://www.thebereans.net/sda-drMartin.shtml
One of the doctrines that is way off base is the Sanctuary Doctrine. http://www.ellenwhiteexposed.com/egw10.htm
I did take a look at your cult list. When I say that the SDA church is cultic, I don’t mean in the sense of Jonestown or Heaven’s gate. I put them in the same boat as Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons. There is a cultic hold for those of us who are called out. I have experienced it. I came out of it. It was very traumatic to leave an organization where I had spent all my life and where most of my family remain. Early on when the Lord was calling me out, I was afraid that I would be deceived and lose my salvation. When you leave the Adventist church (denomination as a whole) for any reason other than death, it is termed “apostasy.”
I am not a theologian, but a very busy home-schooling mom. Got to get back to work!
xsda
P.S. The last part of my first post for the readership of this blog.
April 21st, 2009 at 3:31 pm
hi xsda –
Well looks like we are getting closer here. I think we may have started by talking past one another. I gave SDA in response to Fred who was asking about cults (I assume) in the sense of destructive patterns of behavior rather than aberrant doctrines. And in terms of Jehovah’s Witnesses no question the comparison is apt both SDA and JW came out of the Millerite movement, they are sister denominations.
So for example when I read the list of actions as part of the “shut door doctrine” what I see is the Adventists moving much closer to normative Christianity from: a wild focus on an eminant apocylopse to more and more mainstream doctrines within a decade. That’s progress in terms of moving away from an unnatural focus. Similarly with your example of the heavenly santuary. Again White manages to move the act of salvation from the future (Millerite) to the past (normative Christianity) then moves it to a series of stages so that something important happened in 1844 but not the key defining act.
That seems in my book to be normalizing the situation. OTOH the purpose of the page is to argue that Mrs. White’s predictions were wrong, well yeah they were. But from a church abuse standpoint correctness doesn’t really enter into it.
I can imagine leaving SDA was traumatic. Your family probably believes you have lost your salvation, the way you would look on your kids if they joined a Catholic church, or an affirming church. So you have my empathy there. Most of the big denominational families treat joining far off subgroups as being apostacy, scism, heresy….
Anyway my main point is that the SDA today is fairly mainstream. And the Jehovah’s witnesses (who didn’t have an Ellen White) are a good example of what they probably would have looked like without her: bizarre doctrines, strong rules against reading non witness literature or using the internet for bible study, lifetime shunning for anyone who leaves…. I think you can agree under both definitions of a cult SDA meets far less criteria than the JWs do. I will certainly agree the SDA are semi-palagians (like Catholics) do not (in any meaningful sense) affirm the 5 solas.
April 21st, 2009 at 4:04 pm
Since I am a little older than many here, I can speak from empirical knowledge of the JW’s. Charles Taze Russell married my Grandmother and Grandfather on my mother’s side. They were called Russellites, and from them evolved the Dawn Bible students and the JW’s with other fragment movements in between. The JW’s survived. I have not heard much about the dawn Bible Students. That’s my take on it anyhow–take it for what it is worth.
April 21st, 2009 at 6:45 pm
CD-Host,
Do we have a few centuries? >snicker<
he he ;~)
Sopy
April 21st, 2009 at 7:22 pm
Sopwith –
Why waste even a few decades? SGM ain’t reforming next week. If they become interested in reform next week it will still take a decade or more to make substantial change.
April 21st, 2009 at 8:14 pm
Hi CD-Host–
I’m a former Mormon, whose great grandparents were polygamists–so got quite a chuckle when I read that Russell married your grandfather and grandmother…hmmm, I thought, didn’t know the JW’s were polygamists, too.
Thanks for the (unintended) smile.
April 21st, 2009 at 8:52 pm
Cd-Host,
So…
SGM ain’t a reform’in any time soon, ya say?
Guess I’ze hav’a little time ta color ma wiskers din… he he
Sopy
April 21st, 2009 at 9:14 pm
Gratefully Disillusioned from SGM –
I’ll help put this together. Russell is a full generation after we are talking about, Miller had died before Russell was born in 1852. Russell had quit Christianity in his early teens but at 18 (1870) met Jonas Wendell (1815-73) who was an Adventist and a former follower of Miller. Wender puts Russell together with another Millerite George Storrs (1796-1879) who rebaptises Russell as an Adventist (1874). He starts a preaching ministry with Nelson Barbor around that time…..
April 21st, 2009 at 9:49 pm
Thanks CD-Host,
I learned something I didn’t know. I appreciate it. That helps me understand some of my grandparents nuances.
April 22nd, 2009 at 12:47 am
Gratefully –
Glad it was helpful. As far as dawn bible study goes they appear active.
Reformed –
I think that was Gratefully, and I think he just meant “performed the ceremony”. My grandparents belonged to rather mainstream religious groups and paid little attention to them. Nothing exciting in my family’s religious past.
April 22nd, 2009 at 8:52 am
Whoops–you are right, it was Gratefully
And of course he meant performed the ceremony, that’s why it was funny.
Sorry!
May 3rd, 2009 at 6:19 pm
4
May 3rd, 2009 at 6:33 pm
The Quizzler
March 23rd, 2009 at 4:15 pm e
The Quizzler requests a number………… 4 – your blog has helped me heal!
N.S.L.B.
Ummm, Paul… I’m sure you didn’t see this comment written above… ‘cuz if you had, you may not have chosen #4 as an option…
But you have the option of changing your vote, no worries! 
May 3rd, 2009 at 8:48 pm
I’ve been away a long time, but I’m encouraged at this point. When I went to a PDI church, it was way before high speed internet and blogs. Now I think there may be some progress or at least the possibility of it. So… #1 with grave reservations as to how and whether people in authority will release themselves from their positions of authority and allow it to happen.
And John, thank you so much for what you said about moral relativism. Someone just the other day told me: “There are issues like these in all churches. SGM isn’t any different.” That type of moral relativism lessens the impact of what has been happening in these churches. It isn’t true either. But suppose it was. Just because other churches have also had child molestation issues and authoritarian heavyhandedness toward abused women and such does not in any way lessen the seriousness of these things!!