I have a number of random thoughts that I’ll try to address in a cohesive manner. I stubbornly ran this blog for nine months with little input. I have a couple of pastor friends who have helped along the way, when I’ve made statements that were completely over the top. Other friends have been faithful to point out that the majority of what I say lacks grace. To quote statements made by Paul to justify our existence, while having a general tone that bears little resemblance to Paul’s tone is hypocritical. This is one of many reasons that I gave the blog to PK. I’ve been too sarcastic, and too in your face edgy. Some of our commenters would fall into the same category, but I’ve done my best to extend a lot of latitude to commenters, as many are hurting or angry.
I’m asking our friends here for help. I first want to give a full disclosure.
PK is no longer running the blog. Please don’t ask me why, even via email. When you have a blog like the refuge, you keep 100′s of private conversations private. Those of you who have shared your hearts with Carole and I offline know exactly what I’m referring to. We are committed to confidentiality. Completely.
My goal is to assemble a team. This can’t be-Jim & Carole’s, Jim’s, Jim & PK’s, PK’s, Jim’s blog. I don’t understand how Kris and Guy at survivors pull this off. In blogspeak, what you’re reading is a post. Comments are what follows-the ongoing conversation. My goal is to form a team of posters.
We launched with 3, clearly articulated goals. The were not listed in order of importance, but I’ll list them as such now.
1) To publicly call for reform within Sovereign Grace Ministries. This has been done by publishing some very revealing statements made by CJ, thoroughly examining SGM’s polity statement, and exposing the fruit of their polity, which is often damaged lives. In doing so, we often name names. This must continue. Gene Emerson’s actions in Chesapeake are inexcusable. The “parking lot excommunications” carried out by Brent Detwiler and other (not all) SGM pastors are inexcusable. We will continue to expose the actions of men within SGM that go beyond their Biblical authority. Authoritarianism has been a SGM distinctive from the very beginning. We can blame their polity, but I think it’s a chicken/egg question. My opinion is that their view of pastoral/apostolic authority informs their chosen form of church government, as opposed to their polity informing their view of authority.
I would say that objective #1 has been very effective. We have SGM’s attention, and are garnering attention from some “reformed big dogs”. We can’t change the hearts of men, but scrutiny will certainly change some of their actions.
2-To create a refuge-a safe haven for those hurt by authoritarian pastors. I have many mixed emotions about this aspect of what we do here. I’ve stated many times that I don’t think this can be an effective element on a very visible, public blog. I’ve stated that I picked the wrong name. I talk with or share email exchanges with guys offline. Carole does the same with women. I’ve tried to never give advice online, using Proverbs 18:13 as a guideline for personal ministry. Having said that, I think that some of our regulars here have been very helpful in this regard. If they consider this place a refuge, and the walking wounded are encouraged, then I’m grateful to God. My agenda or opinions are meaningless in this area. I’m more concerned with God’s agenda.
3-To call my ex SGC sr pastor and long-time friend to repentance. This was done in June of 08, and that part of the blog has been taken down, as it should not be a permanent fixture here. Inquiring minds might want to know that God has been very kind both to me and my ex-p, and my hope would be to talk about this more in the future. I’m only referencing #3 now because those of you who have been with us since the beginning know that this was a clearly stated goal when we launched.
So what’s next at the refuge?
I personally regret my tone here. I’m sarcastic and cynical. Many, if not all of my posts have been drenched in sarcasm. I crossed the line and sinned against the men in SGM who I have addressed many times. Gentlemen, we are brothers who disagree. We will meet in Heaven. I regret that I have disagreed with you in a sinful manner and would ask that you would forgive me. I have many times painted every pastor in SGM with the same very broad brush. This is clearly wrong and defies logic. I’m certain that we’ll continue to disagree, as I have no evidence that the national leadership of SGM thinks that change is needed (perhaps you do-I’d love to speak with you), but I’m committed to disagreeing with you in a godly manner. I am widening the circle of input, asking more friends to read my posts, and to call me out if I cross the line.
To our friends here, I have sinned against you. A person trying to process what they have gone through or are going through does not need to hear inflammatory speech. My harsh words directed at SGM have not been helpful to you. Please forgive me for this.
I have also sinned against our guests and readers by setting a tone here. Many people have contacted me and asked me to remove or edit posts because they later regretted their words. I am the primary guilty party for leading the snarky dance we often participate in here. I ask for your forgiveness.
So, I have a couple of requests. Please don’t give up on us. We’re in a period of transition, and I would ask for your prayers and support as we try to figure out how to navigate some very murky waters.
I would also ask that you join me in “taking it down a notch”. Please pray before you post, and ask if your words reflect who you are in Christ. This request reflects my hearts desire-anything having to do with SGM or any other institution pales in comparison.
My hearts desire is that His Body would be a reflection of Him.
You’re a good man Jim. Welcome back.
Thanks Guy.
I just googled “Birkenstock”.
That would be a “no”….
now THAT’S funny!
Jim,
Thank you for all you have done for so many who have suffered abuse under the auspices of Sovereign Grace Ministries. It is my hope that many more will be able to benefit from what you have begun here! It is truly a refuge site, as well as a means of communication in an otherwise non-communative realm (that of Sovereign Grace Ministry churches). If it wasn’t for the internet and blogs like yours, I believe many would still be living under abuse and deception. It has truly allowed the “left hand to know exactly what the right hand is doing.” If this was around during WWII, I believe the Nazis would have had their work cut out for them.
Blessings for all that you have both done for the body of Christ…lets keep it going!!
Greener Pastures,
Thank you!
Greener Pastures said,
“If this was around during WWII, I believe the Nazis would have had their work cut out for them.”
I hope you will allow me to go “off topic” for a moment because I have something to add to the above comment.
I know many SGMers are extremely critical of these blogs and perhaps the internet. Did you realize it was the internet that contributed to the collapse of the Soviet Union? How can that be you may wonder . . . the internet wasn’t around then.
That’s where you would be wrong for the internet was being developed prior to the Soviet Union’s collapse. Academic types from around the world had access to it, and information was freely exchanged, just as it is on SGM Refuge/Reform and SGM Survivors.
I was a summer intern at IBM in 1980, and I remember a man in my department whose “job” was to communicate via a computer with a colleague in France (and perhaps other places). I was fascinated by such technology, and sometimes I would look over his shoulder to see how it worked. They carried on a conversation via the computer similar to how we are communicating on these blogs.
The information age has taken a dramatic turn, and there’s no turning back! It will be impossible to “hide” secrets any longer.
Hi Jim and Carole! I’ve been away on business. The Lord’s business actually. We’re making a Christian tv series, and it takes lots of man hours.
I didn’t even know you were away, and now you’re back with renewed vitality and a softer heart. That’s wonderful to hear. God is alive and moving in our midst!
Megan
Jim:
As an SGM man and a friend on this blog, I absolutely and positively forgive you.
As a good friend of mine has said before: be released.
~pk
Yayyyyyyyyy!!!!! This sounds great, Jim!!
Last weekend when I was reading all the posts, I felt like God wanted me to be quiet and just PRAY. Now I see why!!!
I love you guys!!
“As a good friend of mine has said before: be released.”
This made me smile, pk!! {{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{ pk }}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}
Jim,
you and Carole know me pretty well by now – you know what I’m not able to say here, and you know my prayers are always with you and for you. I love you both dearly. I’m a woman of MANY words,
yet I can’t find any that would suffice right now in expressing my heart for you both. I trust the Spirit will do that for me.
Jim – I’m asking questions these days and was a bit put off by the tone on this and the other blog, so I really appreciate this post. Don’t want to ask questions here in “public” though. Wish your email was posted. Don’t even want to post mine for you to contact me since I’m not ready to move beyond “asking questions” and have a good bit at stake. So what to do?
Inquiring Mind-
I’m sorry, were doing some renovations around here-haven’t re-added the about us page.
I’m at jim@sgmrefuge.com
FF-welcome back!
PK & Ellie & Juli-Thank you!
Jim – you said “I personally regret my tone here. I’m sarcastic and cynical. Many, if not all of my posts have been drenched in sarcasm.”
The Quizzler happens to appreciate the subtle (and not so subtle) use of sarcasm in making a point.
One of the Quizzler’s favorite sarcastic accounts took place in I Kings 18:26-27 when Elijah suggested to the priests of Baal that their god must be musing, relieving himself, on a journey, or perhaps asleep! We all know how that turned out.
Jesus Himself used sarcasm with the Pharisees on more than one occasion……………
so Jim, you are in good company when it comes to sarcasm. Keep it coming.
Inquiring Mind, I too had a bit of a hard time with the tone initially. I hope you are able to get all of your questions answered.
As a current member with questions, I found it hard initially to get past the tone and find the information/help I needed. Now that I have been processing for a while, I’ve found myself struggling with anger and bitterness at much of what is going on in SGC. So now I’m on the end of having to watch my tone as I communicate with others or even just process personally. Thanks, Jim, for the encouragement to pray and seek God carefully as we post.
Jim/Carole/PK, Thank you so much for all you guys have put into this place. I seriously don’t know how you guys have done it. My prayers are with you as you seek God on how to best honor Him and serve the body of Christ with this blog. This site has been a means of helping me get a handle on everything, as God works on my heart and opens my eyes.
watching closely: “Jim/Carole/PK, Thank you so much for all you guys have put into this place. I seriously don’t know how you guys have done it. My prayers are with you as you seek God on how to best honor Him and serve the body of Christ with this blog. This site has been a means of helping me get a handle on everything, as God works on my heart and opens my eyes.”
You are welcome, and thank you for the gracious words. Our prayers are with you!
~jw
Hi everyone,
I may be wrong, but I think that the tone that has been spoken about may have been just what was needed to get my attention. People were/are upset on this site and with good reason. Something serious was/is happening in SGM, and the Refuge, taken as a whole, helped to open my eyes to it. I’m just saying, Jim, I think it’s very humble of you to apologize, but I have appreciated your stand which took shape, in part, through your tone. I think it helped to give me courage to see what I otherwise could not have seen and I’m just grateful for that. From my perspective, you were someone who was speaking the truth without apology while at the same time seeking to glorify God.
We’re out of our SG church now. It hasn’t been long and adjusting to the lessening of interaction with our friends has been the hard part. But we’ve done the right thing, of that we’re sure. And it feels good to be free–even though in truth, we were free in Christ all along.
Thanks,
Bree
Jim,
You are a good man. Thank you for your words. While the errors of SGM and the wounds they have caused to our dear brothers and sisters remain in the forefront for me and can get me riled up, still I will take seriously your admonishment to be mindful of what I post. I do not want to take up an offense for the wounded, but I do want to help bear their burdens. We all must lean on Jesus to find that balance!
Be assured that you and Carole (and PK) are in my prayers as you move forward. Grace and Peace, those precious virtues of the Lord, be with you!
“watching closely” and Bree ~
praying for you both.
hugs ——–> {{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{ }}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}
Thanks Ellie : )
Jim
I appreciate you willingness open up and be open to what you think should be the proper tone of this blog. There are things that need to be said and shared about the abuses that have occurred and are still going on within SGM. I think we need to find a balance. Hopefully we can move to that.
I would hope that if/when something happens to SGM such as judgment we have the attitude that Samuel had when he pronounced judgment on Saul. Scripture says that Samuel mourned for Saul. God even asked Samuel how long was he going to grieve over Saul and then told him to anoint David as king. (I Sam 15:35-16:1) Thus we would mourn whatever happening having to happen.
Thanks again for all your work on this blog.
Steve
Jim,
You are my hero (after PK of course).
For the LORD takes delight in his people;
he crowns the humble with salvation. (Ps. 149:4)
and of course,
“. . . All of you, clothe yourselves with humility toward one another, because,
”God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble.” (1 Peter 5:5)
Please continue to pray, everyone. God is on the move, using imperfect men to bring Himself glory. Praise His wonderful name!
Love you brother,
Protestant Dame
Quizzler-I appreciate sarcasm myself. Unfortunately, I appreciated it too much.
I agree with you regarding Jesus’ use biting words. I would add that Paul said things that even I would never say. My point is-this was not their general tone. It has been mine, and this must change. Moving forward, when the next Chesapeake hits the fan, I will do everything I can to expose it, and my words will not be dispassionate. I will refrain from personal pot shots about the perp’s hair or whatever, and will encourage our guests here to do the same. Sort of a “just the facts” line of thought. The facts are enough, and the personal pot shots just muddy the waters.
Watching Closely-you’re welcome, and thank you!
Bree-thank you for your perspective. My view of the serious nature of the misuse and exaggerated view of authority within SGM has not changed, except that I’ve put away the broad brush. I don’t have personal knowledge of how every pastor in SGM thinks or acts, therefore the use of the broad brush is just illogical and wrong. You’ll still see strong statements when appropriate, but my desire is to leave the snarky statements out of my commentary. I hope this makes sense.
Gracie-your name is perfect! I would not consider your comments to fall under what I’m addressing. I don’t have a great memory, and obviously can’t recall everything you’ve said here, but Carole and I would consider you to be one of the most grace-filled people we know. Carole’s normal response to an email from you would be-”sweet Gracie”. I’ve heard it over and over again.
Steve-well said.
PD- (possible false humility alert
) I’m not particularly heroic, but thank you. I echo your request- Please continue to pray, everyone. God is on the move, using imperfect men to bring Himself glory. Praise His wonderful name!
Jim and Carole, and PK – hugs and prayers.
Jim,
Thank you for your honesty & transparency. Your post is an example of how we should confront those things in our life that come against us and wound and damage us. WE MUST speak truth, yet how we speak it, many times, determines who will not only hear it, but receive it and act upon it.
You have truly given credibilty to the Refuge for all of us…Thank you and Carole for being so faithful and showing us how to keep our eyes on HIM and to be sensitive to HIS HOLY SPIRIT, when HE comes to us.
MiMi
Gracie-your name is perfect! I would not consider your comments to fall under what I’m addressing. I don’t have a great memory, and obviously can’t recall everything you’ve said here, but Carole and I would consider you to be one of the most grace-filled people we know. Carole’s normal response to an email from you would be-”sweet Gracie”. I’ve heard it over and over again.
Amen! This is the truth, Gracie! You have been such a sweet voice on this blog.
Jim,
I think the “taking personal pot shots” is a very good way of explaining what we need to avoid. I’m going to be really careful.
Having said that, how will you handle those drive-by’s (who seemed to have disappeared for the moment) who say such hurtful and untrue things to people posting here? Will they be allowed to toss their pot shots? I just want to be clear on this. I get kinda ornery when my peeps get attacked.
I look forward to reading reasonable debate, here. “Come, let us reason together.” Unreasonable posters who only wish to vent, hurting already vulnerable people, should be monitored, right? I’m hanging at “Moving On” because we can discuss issues and stories without those guys. Just wondering what you think.
You and Carol have my prayers. As someone else said here, we will help you hold up the staff when your arm gets tired!
PK and Protestant Dame,
Thank you your work, here. PK, your polity posts settled many quesitons I’ve carried for years. Thank you so much.
Canary,
I’ll handle the drive-by’s in the same way I always have, which includes hoping they’ll stay and interact, as long as they are polite to the ladies and don’t use the “b word” after being warned.
Bree, Quizzler, all..
I’ve noticed that voices of truth and light come in all forms:Some are candles flickering, some are like bic-lighters, some are a steady flashlight..while others are a blow torch.
These blogs have been a blowtorch of truth in a very dark time of SGM’s existence. Many of us (myself included) needed that blowtorch to get our attention because of how seriously confused and deceived we were. My own experience is nothing compared to Noel’s, Happy Mom’s, and countless others. The issues involved here are serious. The danger to people’s faith being destroyed is serious. The leaven is serious.
Sarcasm is sometimes needed. Quizzler you made an excellent point about Elijah. That was a serious time as well. I agree with you both on the points you made. I think sarcasm and over the top commentary sometimes is needed in certain circumstances. Personally, I will make no apology for any sarcasm, anger, hurt, frustration or anything else I have had, anymore. SGM does not have the right to define what is “godly” and ”acceptable” behavior to me anymore. They simply don’t have that power. They sit in the seat of Moses, but I do not acknowledge them or their false authority. Christ is my authority, and I will answer to Him alone for all I say and do. That fact is more than enough to put the fear of God in me and hold me accountable.
The presupposition they present is this and it has always been this: we cannot know truth for ourselves and are therefore deceived. They however, have some ability to escape this same limitation in their own personal thinking, and are somehow able to know truth and God’s will more than we are. This is a blatant lie, and contrary to God’s truth. Read Hebrews brothers and sisters – we EACH have direct access to God through Christ by faith. We don’t NEED SGM’s covering, blessing, acceptance, or permission anymore for anything. We never did. This is the truth they desire to keep from us by defining the acceptable terms we each must have in order for this blog to be “Biblical” and pleasing to God. If we don’t do such and such, or have this particular attitude, or use sarcasm, or have anger, then we are in sin. And it’s all about control. It always has been.
I would suggestthat SGM’s inability and unwillingness to publiclyaddress the hundreds of stories being presented online indicate that repentance on their part has clearly not taken place. (repentance=a change of mind) SGM (I am not talking about individuals here and there or some local pastors, I am talking about Mahaney, Harris, Purswell, Shank, and others who have been specifically called out for their actions) THESE men have not produced fruit in keeping with repentance. Apostolic directives as a result of the blogs as Jim pointed out in his January post are proof of that. We have their attention – but they have not acknowledged ANYTHING publicly. As Jim’s post asked then: why don’t they just CALL him?? I think we all know the answer to that question.
And until they do produce such fruit, and publicly repent, I think the blow torch should not be put away just yet. In fact, it should be turned up hotter. I know I am probably in the minority here for my views, but I am no longer trying to please man, but God. I love the Body of Christ too much to see her broken and deceived any longer.
Jim, Okee-doke.
Juli,
I can see what you are saying. You have passion for God’s folks, that’s for sure. I thought that, with an occasional lapse, most people posting here were being as decent about things as they could, when handling the meanies. So, I’m still a bit confused. I don’t know what is or isn’t appropriate to say. I think I’ll just read here, and hang at “Moving On”, at least til I wrap my bird brain around what it all means, actually see how the posting goes, here. No offense, Jim. Just want to be careful. Carry on. I’m praying for you and Carole!
Juli,
I have no intention of turning down the volume. I hope you didn’t see that in my post or in the comments that followed. I’ll just be more careful with my words. This is a Biblical command that I have ignored far too many times.
Like you, SGM has no authority or influence in my life.
I believe that God wants me to change my tone, and to do what I can to encourage others here to do the same.
While I’m not pointing fingers at anyone in particular, I do think a general encouragement to choose our words carefully, and to pray before we post, would be in line with Biblical thought.
Juli…………………
You get an A+. Go to the head of the class!
Thank you, Jim, for your commitment to truth and your courage to stand against a very resistant SGM mindset. I agree that there seems to be little evidence that those that shape SGM have any intention to change or even have any sense of a need to alter their course in any substantial way.
I do believe that some pragmatically motivated alterations in tone or behavior have shown up recently and will be even more evident along the way, because of the simple effect of public scrutiny and voices like yours that announce far and wide the way that things are being handled from situation to situation.
All of this makes your present adjustment in course even more admirable and important. You and many others have vital things to say and can be such a provoking challenge to the minds and hearts of SG folks and a refuge to those with hurts and questions. Your desire to do this with strength but also warmth, grace, and gentleness is honoring to the Lord and it will deepen the trust of people (from every perspective) for you and the mission of this site.
As one who has known the weight, confusion, grief, and deep disappointment of a conscientious journey out of SGM, I thank you for speaking (sometimes shouting) the truth and for being the “voice” in the ears of those who know something isn’t right, that assures them “You’re not losing your mind – things really aren’t the way they ought to be”.
Thanks, Jim and Carole.
Taking Note-thank you!
Jim, you’ve got mail
PK..I’m praying for you, and Protestant Dame, good to “see” you here as well! You’ve been quite missed.
I’m hearing that truth will continue to be proclaimed, loud and clear.
I am hearing that discussions, with both personal testimonials and SGM ideology as fair topics.
I am hearing that the doors are open to SGM – for both “members” (in quotations because according to SGM polity, there are no true members) who are seeking truth, whose eyes are slowly seeing, and to those who see no SGM wrong, but want to discuss ideas.
I am hearing that the doors remain open to SGM leaders.
I am hearing that the invitation to come is for all: from the top dog, CJ, to the refugee.
I am hearing a sincere conviction on Jim’s heart that the Lord wants him to have a change of his own heart attitude. I hear sincere repentance on Jim’s heart for something that Jim had done wrong in God’s eyes.
I am hearing a sincere request by Jim to me, to keep my posts kind (and telling a harsh truth can be kind in the right circumstance) and non-snarky (and I surely can be snarky in the right circumstances!).
I am hearing a sincere request to pray for God’s wisdom before I post.
I am hearing a sincere desire that this blog be used to God’s glory.
Jim, am I hearing correctly? Am I adding to or deleting something important?
If what I have posted here is truly what is being said, I anxiously await what God will do.
hummm…. interesting development.
Remnant-
That’s exactly what your hearing, with two small opinions that we may not share.
1-my request is to no one in particular and to everyone in general re prayer and tone. In many cases I’m preaching to the choir.
2-SGC’s have members. The 503c corporations do not.
Canary,
You said, “So, I’m still a bit confused. I don’t know what is or isn’t appropriate to say.”
Me too, so I remain on the sidelines, not wanting to offend or step over the line, in any way. My humor can come across as caustic, but it is never meant to offend. Sometimes truth and pettiness can both be exposed through humor. Like Jim, I want to balance all things to edify the body, BUT we all have personalities that need to be allowed some latitudes. If not, we become timid and more interested in fitting in than speaking the truth in love. Love comes from the heart/spirit where the Lord Jesus resides but is expressed via our personalities which are all in process.
Canary, Julie, Quizzler, and Jim to name a few, you are the best!!!
Gratefully Disillusioned from SGM said………………
“…..we all have personalities that need to be allowed some latitudes. If not, we become timid and more interested in fitting in than speaking the truth in love. Love comes from the heart/spirit where the Lord Jesus resides but is expressed via our personalities which are all in process.”
You get an A+. Join Juli at the head of the class!
G.D.,
Jim,
1-You may not have anyone in particular in mind, but *I* know that I’ve been snarky at times.
2-You’ve crossed the line into things I understand and things I don’t understand. If SGM is a 503c, and this particular 503c does not recognize members, how can SGC override the edict of the 503c?
I’m not fearful of anyone losing their personality here – unless one chooses to silence their own voice. I look forward to sharing humor, tears, puzzlement … as well as anger. How can one hear stories such as have been shared here without feeling righteous anger? But I will not be snarky.
Jim and Carole,
So glad you’re back, and I’m keeping you in my prayers.
Blessings!
Thank you, Wanda! Prayers are most welcome and very much needed!
I would like to thank all of you for your support and your encouragement! Jim and I “feel the love” and that love is definitely reciprocated, my friends!
We are excited to be back (although, we truly never left…)
and we can’t wait to see what God wants to do here at The Refuge.
I’m thinkin’ someone really should define “snarky”…someone other than SGM that is
Juli,
Let me be clear. SGM does not define anything here.
I created, own, and run this blog. I created the post you are questioning.
Are you asking me to define what I meant, because I don’t know how anyone else could.
Certainly not SGM.
I’m not sure if this is the appropriate thread, but due to the fact that it appears to be the popular one, I did want to make mention that it does appear that SGM Chesapeake is feeling the financial pinch of the fact that many have indeed left the church, and most being very sound tithers and givers. More and more each week, and it is hardly a trickle…it’s a flood. It is encouraging that we can indeed vote at Sovereign Grace Churches, even thoigh those above our pay grades would have it otherwise. As has been reported in earlierr threads, yes, the Church Administrator and Accountant has been demoted, and does appear that his days at the financial helm is indeed numberted. Please pray for Bill Orth and his family, as he is a fine man and will be out of work shortly. In addition, it does appear that “another one bites the dust,” as, in addition to the Church Administrator, the Church’s Creativity Guy and Worship Leader, is also being given the pink slip. Please pray for him and his family as well. In addition, many other programs, it appears, are also being cut. SGM Chesapeake, is apparently finally feeling the fruit (or lack there of) of their own loom! Call it what you will, “a wake up call” or “a shake up call,” I believe that they are finally feeling it! Jim, keep up the good work. I believe much of this would not have occurred if it wasn’t for the ability to communicate. (FYI, Time Magazine, in 2001, named Johann Guttenburg, MAN OF THE MILLENNNIUM, for inventing the Printing Press, which was the beginning of mass communication…and getting information to the masses!). Bravo!
Greener Pastures,
When you wrote, “…the Church’s Creativity Guy and Worship Leader, is also being given the pink slip.” Are you referring to Eric Hughes? If you are, I am really saddened by that news.
No, the man is not Eric Hughes. He apparently has been sent to the Pastors College for SGM indoctrination. I’m sure he’ll return a good little PC bot.
Thanks for the info about Eric.
Jim, I wasn’t implying SGM defined anything officially here.. I was simply referring to the fact that differing definitions have contributed to much confusion already during our time in SGM and it still continues because many of us still carry those twisted interpretations with us as we try to sort through things – and the word “snarky” is thrown around a lot (myself included) and it just occured to me that there are probably many who think differently about what constitutes a snarky comment vs. not..that’s all, nothing more.
Juli,
I’ve been out of SGM for 2 1/2 years, so they quit defining things for me long ago. I assumed you knew me well enough to know that. In my experience, I don’t recall ever hearing the term from SGM leadership.
Here’s the definition- http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/snarky
Canary,
What’s this “moving on?”
“I think I’ll just read here, and hang at “Moving On”,”
Thanks,
Sid
Greener Pastures,
This is very interesting about the Chesapeake church.
Also, there was some recent announcement at the Gilbert, AZ church about paycuts and layoffs? I mean “they felt called to outside work.” There has been an exodus at that church too.
Sid
Hey Sidney… “Moving On” is at the top of the page… click on the tab and you’re there!
Carole,
Thanks! :)
Duh.
Sid
Ha Ha, Sidney!
It’s easy to miss, being at the top of the page like it is… I’m glad you found it.
I had an interesting discussion with an SGM pastor once in regard to
some practices that I did not agree with. His response;
“People vote with their feet, and with their wallets”
Perhaps one of the most profound and prophetic words I have
ever been on the receiving end of at SGM.
I will continue to pray for both Gilbert and Chesapeake.
Sidney,
What Carole said…:)
I just read an article on Yahoo News that tells of churches finding themselves in financial crisis due to lack of funds. The economy is supposedly the cause. However, people leaving churches like the Gilbert and Chesapeake over the issues we discuss here must put a dent in the holy bank account. I feel for the men who loose their jobs, but maybe it is God’s way of getting them out of a system filled with leaven…
Jim,
In your opening comments you mentioned “The “parking lot excommunications” carried out by Brent D “. That does not sound biblical.
Scorched-
I would agree.
Scorched-is this your first time commenting here? If so, welcome!
I’m sorry, I have a hard time keeping track…
Interesting name you have there. I hope that is not a reference to your experience with SGM.
Jim
That was my first post, and my name is a referance to my experiance at SGM.
Scorched,
Welcome to a place where others have felt the burn, as well. It is great to have your voice, here.
Upon this Rock…
HowDee Ya’All,
Jim,
Told ya Jim, Ya couldn’t “stay away” Gooooooooooooooooood fer you! Can’t keep a good man down!
YeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeHaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!
Praise Jesus!
***
Upon this here little rock (Mr. Mahaney) I shalla builds my “church” and the gates of reason and sanity shall not prevail against it.
What?
Ops! I’m soooo sorry …wrong translation hehe
Let’s try that again: >snicker<
Upon this here rock (Jesus) I (Jesus) shall build MY “church” and da gates O’ hell ai’t gonna pre-vail! Against! IT! No never, never, never!
Why?
Cuz, Jesus says so! Cuz, Jesus says so! Cuz, Jesus says so! Cuz, Jesus says so!
And his disciples remembered that it was written: The zeal of thine house hath eaten me up.
So Mr. Mahaney, go smell real bad somes wheres else. And… let Jesus’s kids alone! IN THE NAME OF JESUS!
***
Ya all dats stopped drink’in dat SGM KoolAid…
Ya’s gonna get bedder real soon! Ya hear!
Look’in ta Jesus, the author & perfectER of our faith! Amen!
Praise you Jesus! –My magnificent Savior!
I cry out to you Lord Jesus, your beloved needs you now!
I will lift my eyes to the one who has made the heavens!
And I will utter my cry: Mercy, O’ Mercy reign over us! Grade and truth envelope us and make us free!
Jesus, truly be our Lord! Indeed!
In your nostrils Lord, they have done this to You, O’ Holy One of Israel!
Rise up Lord, for your enemies are even now, at the gates!
***
In a little,
Sopwith
P.S. I’ze still pray’in fer ya all!
Notes:
After this he went down to Capernaum, he, and his mother, and his brethren, and his disciples: and they continued there not many days. And the Jews’ passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem. And found in the
temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting: And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the
changers’ money, and overthrew the tables; And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father’s house an house of merchandise. And his disciples remembered that it was written, The zeal of
thine house hath eaten me up. Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things? Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will
raise it up. Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? But he spake of the temple of his body.
When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and THEY BELIEVED THE SCRIPTURE, & THE WORDS WHICH JESUS HAD SAID.
Sopwith said-
Ya’s gonna get bedder real soon! Ya hear!
Look’in ta Jesus, the author & perfectER of our faith! Amen!
So true.
Sopwith,
Good to “see” you again!!
Jim
What are the details on the Detweiler parking lot excommunication? This is the first I have heard of this. It doesn’t sound good.
I know at least one person who was “asked” to leave without going through the Mathew 18 process.
One the Chesapeake Church and their diminishing lack of funds and layoffs. I remember reading earlier that they were already in a deficit condition before the 3 couples (correctly) brought up issues with the leadership at this church. One of their issues was the deficit budget that they were already running.
Thus it sounds like the SGM Chesapeake was already overspending before their base of members decreased as it now is reported to be doing. As others have shared, this happening at this church and others SGM churches may be what gets the leadership’s attention.
STEVE240-
You are correct about the deficit spending. One of the concerns the 3 couples had was a deficit of over $230,000 in the 2007 financial statement given to the church. But they weren’t overspending, as the Sr. Pastor, Keith Breault communicated to the flock at his January 25th “Family Meeting”: this was a “planned deficit,” and that they “planned to take a hit,” in leu of future growth. BOY WAS HE WRONG! Oh Well!, Just another day in SGM Paradise!
As for the financial situation at the church down in Chesapeake, The Quizzler finds it interesting that the senior pastor didn’t remember the lesson of Joseph and Pharaoh’s dream in Genesis 41.
Wisdom would dictate that if one were to anticipate a “planned defecit” that there would be one or more years of “planned saving” preceding the “planned defecit.”
quizz time…………………..
Which of the following verses apply to the situation in Chesapeake?
A) Proverbs 22:3
B) Proverbs 27:12
C) Proverbs 27:23
D) Luke 14:28-30
E) all of the above
A prudent man sees danger and takes refuge,
but the simple keep going and suffer for it.
The prudent see danger and take refuge,
but the simple keep going and suffer for it.
Be sure you know the condition of your flocks,
give careful attention to your herds
“Suppose one of you wants to build a tower. Will he not first sit down and estimate the cost to see if he has enough money to complete it? For if he lays the foundation and is not able to finish it, everyone who sees it will ridicule him, saying, ‘This fellow began to build and was not able to finish.’
Mmmmm, I am thinking “all of the above!”
Juli: “PK..I’m praying for you, and Protestant Dame, good to “see” you here as well! You’ve been quite missed.”
Thanks, Juli. Our prayers are with you as well.
~pk
Gratefully Disillusioned from SGM,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Give yourself an A and go to the head of the class!
Quizzler
Unfortunately along with the Chesapeake SGM Church, most governments and most people don”t follow the advice that Joseph gave Pharaoh from his dream. Unfortunately most groups increase their budgets and spending to what their current revenue level is. They don’t plan for leaner times such as we seem to be seeing now.
Greener
Thanks for the information. Planning a $230K deficit doesn’t sound wise. Of course hindsight is 20/20.
Greener and Steve 240: Do you really believe that a sr. pastor would plan a deficit??? WOW!! This is hard to imagine! Would the three financial guys in SGCC who are successful in their professions: attorney, certified public accountant, and ceo of a company really sign off on that???
The “planned deficit” kind of sounds a little like the “SPIN” that comes out of Washington, doesn’t it?
Quizzler,
All of the above?
Your quizzes are fun!
Canary,
Quizzler already sent me to the front of the class, and you are already on top of the cage. So we are both having a good day.
G.D.,
Hee-hee! You are such fun, too. Okay, you can have the seat in the front, and I’ll stay where I’m at. I was hoping to get an A+ from the Quizzler, who keeps things fun by handing out his/her quizzes! Love those verses, too. Especially the last one.
Yeah, I was kind of wondering why I didn’t get an A+ from the Quizzler either.
Yeah, I was wondering that too! Pray tell Quizzler.
Canary, G.D., and Fred…………………
The Quizzler may not be awarding A+s in the future because……………. “all have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God“, therefore can anyone truly receive an A+? (This would be SGM logic).
That said, since we have a Savior who has justified us (and since The Quizzler misspelled “deficit” twice in the above post) …………..
Canary and G.D. each get an A+, and so does Fred who was an advocate and spoke up for others who had been wronged!
Qizzler
Hooray!!! As usual you tactfully wove the truth of the Gospel into your reasoning. For that, give yourself an A+, as well.
Quizzler,
HowDee Ya’All,
Ellie,
Thank-You! Ditto!
I’ze juz hang’in out by Jim’s water cooler!
Praz’in Jesus!
…and pray’in bunches!
In a little
Sopwith
Quizzler, you’re the greatest! Thanks. I always like an A+, especially from someone as qualified as you! You have made my day!
Hello Everyone:
In an effort to guard my words, take care of how I treat others inside and outside my church affiliation and such, I am putting a picture and name to myself. More on this later, but just wanted everyone to know and not be shocked/amazed/surprised too badly.
~j (pk)
Hi John!! (I’m proud of you, my friend!!)
John, way to go brother!
Carole & Juli:
Thank you. I’m not sure this will initially be a positive de-masking for some, but it was definitely necessary.
~j (pk)
Good job, John aka PK. Walk in the light!
John…Bless you bro! I would have to “enquire” as to why you remain in a SGM church? I have heard from some that they remain to be a “Thorn In The Side” of the pastors and other “high ups” in SGM. I would have to consider, however, if this would be biblical? Is there any biblical model of being a “thorn in the side”? In addition, I have heard others state that they stay waiting for change. (SO were we…for many years). I would have to question whether we can, in our lives, and in our families, sacrifice time for this kind of change? As for me, my family is too precious to sacrifice. The time I have with my children is fleeting. Soon they will be adults. These are precious years, and must not be wasted, nor sacrificed, for the sake of a broken model, that God appears to tearing down. Are we to be the ones who will try to hold up the walls of Jericho, as they are falling?
Quiz time……………………
What are valid reasons to leave a Sovereign Grace Ministries church?
A) to seek the true and complete Gospel
B) to protect your children
C) to be a part of the greater body of Christ
D) to worship Jesus Christ instead of a movement
E) to care for the poor among us
F) to walk in VICTORY and not in condemnation
G) all of the above
I’m going to guess that John stays in because he loves his brethren there, dreams of what SGM could be, and hopes to be an agent of reform and change.
The Bride of Christ is at SGM. The church is not the pastors, or whacked out polity. The church are the believers. I suspect John does not want to leave them if he can minister to them, as he has here on Refuge.
You are a brave man, my friend!
Quizzler…RIGHT ON! “G”! I believe that it is evident that the only thing that will bring change to the bretheren we love so much, who remain at SGM, is to “vote with our feet and pray for those who have yet to see the light and put down the Kool Aid they have been consuming! This appears to be the only thing that causes anyone to take notice. If the polity is “whacked out,” those who remain will continue to live under “a whacked out” authority. Sometime ministering to those within SGM is easier once we are freed from the controling bondage of the ministry!
Quizzler…I know! I know! May I answer???!!!
G and H!
(Oh, H is “because you realize your leaders are charlatans”)
Sid
John, (Protestant Knight), I really respect you for revealing your true identity. You are a brave man, full of courage and honor. May God bless you.
I have been thinking about doctrine lately. We were taught the doctrine of salvation and the doctrine of sin (more focus on sin than salvation) in my previous SGM church. Now when I think that I was in this SGM church for 10+ years, I am amazed that those are the only doctrines that we were taught. Please don’t get me wrong, I am very thankful for the doctrine of salvation and the doctrine of sin (even though I now see that sin was way over focused!), especially as taught by the previous sr. pastor but I am thinking, why in 10+ years is that all we were taught? What I am realizing is that there was much that we were not taught and that I don’t even know what SGM believes except for these two doctrines. I also realize that we were told over and over that we were receiving sound doctrine and I just accepted that that was true (shame on me).
Why is it that SGM doesn’t teach the other doctrines of the Bible? It is so very unfortunate that SGM are keeping the sheep in the dark of what they really believe. Learning the doctrines of the Bible equip us for service and for furthering the Gospel. Maybe some of you writing heard more on doctrine than I did. Please let me know…..
I found out in the fall of 08 that the Doctrine of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit had been changed by SGM. Do you think that this change had just occurred? No, they made this change in 2002 and the sheep in our church were never told. What other doctrines have been changed? Also, I would ask those of you still in SGM churches, do you know what SGM believes as far as the other doctrines in the Bible?
Fred,
Around ’02 SGM enlarged the tent to include third wave. I’m not sure they are an exclusively third wave movement. I know in Florida there seems to be room for both third wave and second experience.
Fred,
This is very interesting. We had big, thick books on “doctrine” but nobody really read them..we all just bought them.
I ‘think’ we learned about the following, but I will have to think hard about what they mean:
Justification
Propitiation
Sanctification (ie, sin?)
I was there for over a dozen years (in 3 different SGM churches) and can attest to what you’re saying.
How sad, huh, that we really didn’t learn much more than this…oh, I know….I learned how to teach my children ‘submission’ and I learned that I must ‘submit.’ I learned that courting is ‘biblical’ and that God tells most people in SGM churches that the only ‘biblical’ way to raise their children is to homeschool them. I know that serving and hospitality and giving and evangelism are good wonderful things good wonderful christians excel in.
I don’t know. Maybe I don’t know what ‘doctrine’ really is.
Now that I think of it. I think that this would be so much less important had it not been so heavily focussed on. I mean, we SGMers made fun of churches that didn’t have ‘sound doctrine,’ yet I have no idea what ‘sound doctrine’ means.
Gee, my head is spinning now…Thanks, Fred.
Sidney
Greener Pastures and Sidney………….
You both get an A+ and move to the head of the class. Sidney gets extra credit for H.
Thanks, Quizzler. That’s great! Cuz after feeling so stupid that I don’t know any significant doctrine (other than sin and salvation) even though i was taught it for over a decade.
Now I can sleep well tonight!
Ahh…sweet dreams of extra credit….oh, the joys!
Greener Pastures:
I’d like to respond to your post, and make something clear: my responses in no way exhibit a level of expecatation I have on everyone else. They are my answers, and my answers alone, without preaching to you.
“John…Bless you bro!”
Thank you. I pray His blessings on you as well.
“I would have to “enquire” as to why you remain in a SGM church?”
Because they preach the Gospel, the sufficiency of Christ, the Holiness of God, and the reliance on empowering of the Holy Spirit in the believer’s ongoing sanctification (an outward expression of the joy of their salvation).
“I have heard from some that they remain to be a “Thorn In The Side” of the pastors and other “high ups” in SGM. I would have to consider, however, if this would be biblical? Is there any biblical model of being a “thorn in the side”?”
No, there is no biblical model for being athorn in the side, unlessone were to compleltely take Paul’s tale of his “thorn” out of context and misapply it to themselves. I hope and pray I am not a thorn in the side of my leaders. The Bereans were noble, and the antithesis of being a thorn the side. Paul and Luke never prayed for the Bereans to be “removed.” I hope and pray to be like them: to verify everything with Scripture, to preach the truth in love to my brethren, and to do unto them what I would have them do unto me. I’ve failed many times in that last goal, but the recurring theme lately is “turning the ship.” God grant me the grace to do so, and I thank God for his forgiveness in Christ Jesus!
“In addition, I have heard others state that they stay waiting for change. (SO were we…for many years). I would have to question whether we can, in our lives, and in our families, sacrifice time for this kind of change?”
I will sacrifice anything for the sake of my family and brethren in Christ, that they may know Him and the wonders of His love. What are my sacrifices compared to God’s undending love because of who I am Christ, the ultimate sacrifice.
“As for me, my family is too precious to sacrifice. The time I have with my children is fleeting. Soon they will be adults.”
I heartily pray that you have many wonderful years, full to bursting, in time with your family. Family is a wonderful thing. Family is one of many reasons I am staying… my blood brothers, and my in-Christ’s-blood brothers.
“These are precious years, and must not be wasted, nor sacrificed, for the sake of a broken model, that God appears to tearing down.”
He isn’t tearing it down… He’s reforming it. When I look out into the flock of my church, the last word that ever comes to my mind is “waste.” What in fact springs to mind is two words: ”worth it.” And many think the same of me.
“Are we to be the ones who will try to hold up the walls of Jericho, as they are falling?”
While I realize this is more than likely intended as a rhetorical question, it would seem to me that likening someone to staying in a Sovereign Grace Ministries church to someone trying to hold up the walls up of a Canaanite city that bears a curse for those rebuilding it (Joshua 6:26) just might be over the top. If we are going to use Old Testament illustrations (which is fine), I point you to the books of Ezra and Nehemiah. Rebuild what has been lost while God rebuilds me; that’s my vision.
In Christ because of Christ,
~j (pk)
John and Jim,
Recent days and events have brought some encouragement to me that there might just be hope for reform within SGM. I have never thought that ALL the men in SGM leadership were as graceless and spiritually abusive as those whose names appear in many of our stories (yet I know I have painted with those broad strokes at times in my posts).
I have to admit, my hope has just taken a pretty big hit over at survivors with the whole Roy incident. Look at the fruit a lifetime in PDI/SGM has produced in these “men” - Immaturity, deception (for a supposedly good cause), rudeness, mockery, arrogance and a heartless disregard for hurting people. Is this how they live out their “biblical doctrine”? Is this “doing it right”?
We sat and heard with our own ears many years ago our PDI pastor in Florida say that if his children turned out badly, then it disqualified him as a leader. True to their word, there are accounts of more than one leader who was demoted or removed when their children, even grown children, strayed from PDI/SGM ways. Yet, here we see a whole group of grown children behaving badly. Shouldn’t the organization who very meticulously “raised” them be held responsible? I hope they will be taken to task by SOMEONE, ANYONE within SGM leadership.
I’m sorry, it makes it very difficult to take it down a notch, have respectful discussions with pro-SGMers, and retain hope when this is the fruit of those being raised in all their “biblical doctrine”. I have heard it said that SGM kids go one of two ways and I have seen this firsthand in one family – either they become haughty and self-righteous pharisees, or they rebel. Don’t want to paint with too broad a stroke here either, so I would be grateful if you could PLEASE assure me that there are some gracious Christian young people who can relate to other Christians and maybe even the lost being produced within SGM.
Sidney said:
“Cuz after feeling so stupid that I don’t know any significant doctrine (other than sin and salvation) even though i was taught it for over a decade.”
Is this how SGM keeps everyone in bondage — by not teaching the entirety of Scripture? How sad! It reminds me of the conflict between Martin Luther and the Catholic church when only the religious hierarchy could interpret Scripture and the common folk were forbidden to read it because it was too difficult for them to understand.
Gracie:
It’s easy to understand the whole “Roy Baylor” and “Anti-SGM Refuge” atrocity taking a hit on any of us, within and without SGM. The fact of the matter is this is someone who needs Christ. I just pray we offer charity to the parents and an extension of the Gospel to this/these individual(s). I’m waiting to see how all of this pans out in the next week or so before I start painting my own organization with a wide brush like I’ve done in the past.
I’ve read of many individuals exhibiting rakish behavior like this, spread out over a wide number of Christian denominations. I would only ask to watch and see for at least a little while.
“I’m sorry, it makes it very difficult to take it down a notch, have respectful discussions with pro-SGMers, and retain hope when this is the fruit of those being raised in all their “biblical doctrine”. I have heard it said that SGM kids go one of two ways and I have seen this firsthand in one family – either they become haughty and self-righteous pharisees, or they rebel. Don’t want to paint with too broad a stroke here either, so I would be grateful if you could PLEASE assure me that there are some gracious Christian young people who can relate to other Christians and maybe even the lost being produced within SGM.”
I am here to tell you that there are many SGM kids who don’t get funneled into either category you mentioned; kids who love Christ, kids who have a heart for the lost, kids who have indeed been rescued by Christ. Please don’t let “Roy” solely be the lense you view SGM through in terms of our kids.
Good to see you again Gracie!
~John (pk)
John, I am very thankful that your experience has been everything that you have previously stated. What I am going to say, I say with all respect and love to you. Your experience has not been the experience of many, many others. I don’t know what SGM church you have been in but it seems to be very different than the norm. There is a pattern throughout SGM of control and manipulation, wrong interpretation of Scripture and unbibilical beliefs and actions of the leadership. Even those who have not experienced abuse at the hands of their pastors and fellow sheep have experienced wrong teaching. Calling precious saints sinners over and over and giving them the belief that they are dirty rotten worms is just wrong. Teaching the people that you should be looking for the sin in others and confronting them with their sin is just wrong. Excluding some because they don’t look and act like you think they should is just wrong. Look at CJ’s message on the trailer for the upcoming conference http://www.resolved.org :”We are all haters of God and because He screamed our sins are forgiven.” John, I am no longer a hater of God. I love God and so do my brothers and sisters in Christ. Also, where in the Bible does it say that our sins are forgiven because Jesus screamed? This is not biblical. But for so long we all believed everything that CJ, apostles, pastors taught. No more. We are no longer blindly following after them. We are following our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and studying His Word for ourselves.
As far as reform: reform can only happen if CJ and leaders truly repent and change the very foundation of the movement because the foundation is no longer Jesus Christ and no longer a healthy foundation. There are too many cracks in the foundation for the movement to stand as a healthy growing group of believers. CJ cut SGM off from the whole body long ago and by doing this life and vitality were cut off from the sheep in SGC. Yes, CJ is now in relationship with Deaver, Piper and others but he is still very closed off from the whole body.
Why would anyone want to keep themselves and their families in a denomination that is cut off from the rest of the body and is controlled and manipulated by the leadership? Why would anyone want to stay in a denomination in which things are hidden and covered up from the sheep? Why would anyone want to stay in a denomination where the leadership does not believe the people can hear from God for themselves? Why would anyone want to stay in a denomination where they are not allowed to operate in their gifts, cannot have Bible studies, cannot trust that their $$s are being wisely spent and the list goes on and on? Wouldn’t the loving thing to do for your brothers and sisters be to find a church where there is life in the Spirit, a church that is healthy, one where you can use your gifts, know that your $$ is wisely spent, etc. etc. and open the door for them to come as well? Loving sometimes may mean leaving in a way that demonstrates leadership and a desire for Truth.
Oh, I think I sound like The Quizzler and my feathers feel a little ruffled. Sorry Canary!
John… good name. : ) welcome to the world of non anonymity. Well, almost.
peace out!
Fred:
“John, I am very thankful that your experience has been everything that you have previously stated. What I am going to say, I say with all respect and love to you. Your experience has not been the experience of many, many others.”
This is true, and as I have acknowledged before, my current experience has not always been my past experience within SGM. That’s why I have hope for reform in our churches and leaders that may be weak right now.
“I don’t know what SGM church you have been in but it seems to be very different than the norm. There is a pattern throughout SGM of control and manipulation, wrong interpretation of Scripture and unbibilical beliefs and actions of the leadership. Even those who have not experienced abuse at the hands of their pastors and fellow sheep have experienced wrong teaching.”
I have simply elected to stay and weather this, and serve in the capacity to help steer the rudder, rather than bail out. Again, as I’ve said before, I don’t expect this from everyone.
“Calling precious saints sinners over and over and giving them the belief that they are dirty rotten worms is just wrong. Teaching the people that you should be looking for the sin in others and confronting them with their sin is just wrong.”
In the nearly two and a half decades I have been in PDI/SGM churches and under the leadership of at least a dozen men, only one would even begin to broach the behavior you described above. Again, whenever I hear of such behavior or witness it, it’s all the more reason for me to contend for reform and pray for my pastors. Calling out sin is never a bad thing… it’s how we do it in a godly manner that is critical in these situations. I’m learning that lesson oh so much lately.
“Excluding some because they don’t look and act like you think they should is just wrong.”
Fred, I’ve been the recipient of this attitude in every church I’ve been in, inside and outside SGM. It is not pervasive in all flock members, and fleeing from it is fine… but confronting it is fine, too. I simply try to pray for diligence, godly wisdom and gracious words now when I am confronted with it.
“Look at CJ’s message on the trailer for the upcoming conference http://www.resolved.org :”We are all haters of God and because He screamed our sins are forgiven.” John, I am no longer a hater of God. I love God and so do my brothers and sisters in Christ. Also, where in the Bible does it say that our sins are forgiven because Jesus screamed? This is not biblical.”
That’s not all CJ said on this trailer. I’m happy to listen to the message to put his short quote in further context, but I believe all CJ was trying to convey was that Christ’s scream symbolized what he endured on the cross; the Cross is what forgives our sins, and that is in many places in the Bible, OT and NT.
“But for so long we all believed everything that CJ, apostles, pastors taught. No more. We are no longer blindly following after them. We are following our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and studying His Word for ourselves.”
Fred, all I can say is that you follow your convictions and conscience on this one. I will never try to convince somebody to follow anyone. You even have my prayers of support.
“As far as reform: reform can only happen if CJ and leaders truly repent and change the very foundation of the movement because the foundation is no longer Jesus Christ and no longer a healthy foundation. There are too many cracks in the foundation for the movement to stand as a healthy growing group of believers. CJ cut SGM off from the whole body long ago and by doing this life and vitality were cut off from the sheep in SGC. Yes, CJ is now in relationship with Deaver, Piper and others but he is still very closed off from the whole body.”
Fred, I would only say out of caution, as a brother in Christ, to be careful of specifying what reform and repentance should looks like; I have fallen into this trap myself, many times. Reform and repentance can sometimes take many years, or it can happen in an instant. Who are we to put limits on Providence?
“Why would anyone want to keep themselves and their families in a denomination that is cut off from the rest of the body and is controlled and manipulated by the leadership? Why would anyone want to stay in a denomination in which things are hidden and covered up from the sheep? Why would anyone want to stay in a denomination where the leadership does not believe the people can hear from God for themselves? Why would anyone want to stay in a denomination where they are not allowed to operate in their gifts, cannot have Bible studies, cannot trust that their $$s are being wisely spent and the list goes on and on? Wouldn’t the loving thing to do for your brothers and sisters be to find a church where there is life in the Spirit, a church that is healthy, one where you can use your gifts, know that your $$ is wisely spent, etc. etc. and open the door for them to come as well? Loving sometimes may mean leaving in a way that demonstrates leadership and a desire for Truth.”
Fred, these are rhetorical questions that seem to be rapid fire to me -correct me if I am wrong- and you have already answered for yourself. All I can say is that leadership sometimes means weathering a storm, which is what I have decided to do. I have seen progress in many of the areas you are distressed about, enough to warrant my stay, and enough to stop myself from putting expectations and timetables on all of it. Once again, everything I’ve shared with you comes from my heart, and I lay no judgment at your feet or anyone else’s.
I pray all His blessings for you and your family, Fred…
~John (PK)
Jim said: Around ‘02 SGM enlarged the tent to include third wave. I’m not sure they are an exclusively third wave movement. I know in Florida there seems to be room for both third wave and second experience.
My question, Jim, is why doesn’t SGM tell the people when they change doctrine? Seems that would be something important for the sheep to know.
Okay a couple of responses:
About children growing up in the church – I do think that there are good children who come out of Sov Grace – but normally this is after leaving sgm and going through much change. I do think that the strictness about rebellion of pastors children is a huge issue and puts so much pressure on these children – they no if they mess up they are going to cost their family their livelihood. It often leads to secrecy and a hidden youth society even among the pastors children. I also think this is part of the big push for younger pastors in charge – what I have seen is once pastors start having children who are teenagers, issues start to develop, then that pastor is demoted – maybe not out of being a pastor but at least out of being head of a ministry. They are moved down while they deal with these issues and someone who doesn’t have them is moved up. At CLC I even heard others joke about how pastors could only be in leading a ministry until they had teenagers, then someone younger whose kids aren’t teenagers would take over.
Re:pk statement about staying in the church. I do find it hard to reconcile you speaking of finding these issues in churches you have been in both in and out of SGM with the statement that you have been in SGM for 25years – can you clarify? I also do have a hard time seeing how someone could stay in SGM who saw all the issues. Not even that a person could not stay in a church to change it, just that if a person was truly speaking up, like we are called to do, and speaking out about injustice and the unbiblical church government and all the issues we mention here, I think SGM would kick them out as soon as possible. So I personally don’t see how one could speak out against the false teachers and tell it to the church as we should do, and continue to be in SGM’s good graces enough to not get the quick boot. I am wondering what you view on this is as well?
I do think you do a great job summarizing the issues and presenting clear, concise information about the scriptural errors of the denomination.
Fred……….
Concerning notification of the congregation when it comes to doctrinal changes, The Quizzler seems to remember this very point being one of the recommendations in the “Get-Well Plan” that was put forward down in Chesapeake a while back.
Could this be one of the “changes” that the apostle Gene will be announcing to the Chesaapeake church on the 29th of this month?
Are other “changes” in the wings?
Will more staff members decide to “seek other careers”?
So many questions……..so little time
Fred,
I hear the grief in your words. We cannot forget the things you posted. I know that I want to be here for people who have experienced what you describe so eloquently. We must not forget those sheep left hurting by the wayside. Jesus will not forget. I hope others can still feel the freedom to come on this site for support and prayer. Their stories still have to be heard.
PK,
I admire your heart, your willingness to stay and work for reform. It only takes one tug boat to change the direction of an ocean liner. You go, bro!
Protestant Knight (in addressing Fred’s points) said:
“Look at CJ’s message on the trailer for the upcoming conference http://www.resolved.org :”We are all haters of God and because He screamed our sins are forgiven.” John, I am no longer a hater of God. I love God and so do my brothers and sisters in Christ. Also, where in the Bible does it say that our sins are forgiven because Jesus screamed? This is not biblical.”
I agree with Fred. “Scream” is a sensational word, which I believe CJ is grossly misusing. Yes, Jesus “cried out” but the correct definition of this phrase is “to utter suddenly”. I don’t believe using such a pejorative term is honoring to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Personally, I find it offensive to say that Christ “screamed”. A scream connotates terrible fear, as in the famous shower scene in Alfred Hitchcock’s movie Psycho. I can assure you that God incarnate was not afraid!
Once again, the “Reformed leaders” (CJ and John Piper, for example) take it upon themselves to “correctly interpret” Scripture.
Presbyterian, in regard to your 12:38pm comment, please know I was responding to this specific statement of Fred’s:
“Calling precious saints sinners over and over and giving them the belief that they are dirty rotten worms is just wrong. Teaching the people that you should be looking for the sin in others and confronting them with their sin is just wrong.”
in this way:
“In the nearly two and a half decades I have been in PDI/SGM churches and under the leadership of at least a dozen men, only one would even begin to broach the behavior you described above. Again, whenever I hear of such behavior or witness it, it’s all the more reason for me to contend for reform and pray for my pastors. Calling out sin is never a bad thing… it’s how we do it in a godly manner that is critical in these situations. I’m learning that lesson oh so much lately.” (pk)
In no way is that my answer to every issue within (and without) SGM. This was only in reference to the “Calling precious saints…” statement.
You said: “I also do have a hard time seeing how someone could stay in SGM who saw all the issues.”
I’m still there, whether someone has a hard time seeing it or not. That’s all I can answer for myself.
You said: “Not even that a person could not stay in a church to change it, just that if a person was truly speaking up, like we are called to do, and speaking out about injustice and the unbiblical church government and all the issues we mention here, I think SGM would kick them out as soon as possible.”
Presbyterian, correct me if I’m wrong, but I think we may be treading into some really sticky territory where in one protracted sentence, you have called me a liar -that is, one who is not speaking the truth- based on your specs of how I should pursue reform. If this wasn’t meant by your words, “…that if a person was truly speaking up” [emphasis mine] then I sincerely apologize and I retract my observation absolutely. If it is what you intended, it’s not the end of the world; I’ve been called a liar in the past, in many ways, shapes and forms, and sometimes justified. I have spoken up about those things, as a matter of fact, many times even barging in without having all the facts in hand, and no pastor’s boot-heel print decorates my lower regions yet.
Part of the problem, Presbyterian, is that in the past, I have insinuated many motivations and heart attitudes to men in SGM, and have called them liars, in so many words, in their presentation as well. This has served only to break down any and all discussion and debate on the issue.
You said: “I do think you do a great job summarizing the issues and presenting clear, concise information about the scriptural errors of the denomination.”
I appreciate that, Presbyterian, I really do. What a compliment! …and I mean that. In my ongoing my experience however, my brothers at SGM won’t listen or even come to the table when I launch self-serving nukes, or wnat to win an armwrestling match, or call them names and such, which is what I have done in the past. Just speaking from my own point of reference.
~John (pk)
Wanda:
I still stand by my response to Fred in regard to the scream quote which I believe was taken out of context.
The Psycho imagery is yours, and not my own, and I completely disagree with how now in the space of three or four comments, it seems that based on the exchange we have, already CJ is in the category of Hitchcockian menace.
I’ve answered and responded to all the questions and statements regarding CJ’s quote and why I am still in SGM. To go any further today, I’d just be giving the same answer over and over again.
~John (pk)
The Quizzler wonders……………….would Martin Luther have been able to affect change from within the Roman Church? Obviously, he didn’t think so.
Could this be another lesson from HIStory?
…………………and concerning that creeeeepy trailer, who would WANT to follow a sel-proclaimed “enemy of God”?
N.S.L.B.
John,
My comments regarding the word “scream” weren’t specifically meant for you. Sorry you took it that way.
Both John Piper and CJ Mahaney interpret Jesus’ “crying out” on the cross as “screaming”. I wholeheartedly disagree. Words must be used very carefully, and I believe they are mischaracterizing my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. I trust that we can agree to disagree on this point.
Thanks John. I see so let’s agree to disagree. And….certainly, I am not one to limit our wonderful loving Father (Providence) in what He may or may not choose to do with SGM. I do know that He will not be mocked and He absolutely loves His children and has good things for them. He does give us a will and he does allow us to make choices. In the last 6 – 9 months, in His mercy, He has revealed much that has been hidden in SGM and has allowed His children to see much that was covered up. We all need to ask hard questions of ourselves, the leaders of SGM and seek our Father on His will for each of us. Certainly, He does not want us be controlled or manipulated by other men and He does want us using our gifts that He has freely bestowed on us. The poor women in our previous SGM church were allowed to work in the kitchen and children’s ministry. They were allowed to use their gifts of hospitality and serving one another but honestly, that was about it. So sad. He also wants our children in an environment where they can experience the real Jesus Christ and learn of His love and His ways, not man’s ways, not man’s standards and expectations. I pray God’s blessings upon you John and your family. I so hope that you walk in the fullness of the Gospel and in all that God would have for you. He wants to saturate us with Living Water!!!
…………………and concerning that creeeeepy trailer, who would WANT to follow a sel-proclaimed “enemy of God”? the Quizzler
I watched it. It’s just the same old same old. Here is a question for the Quizzler from a puzzled tweety bird: Why does CJ continually preach “the cross”, which is understandably a salvation message, to BELIEVERS? Why doesn’t he take this message out to the streets, to the ones who don’t know the Gospel, already?
“Therefore, since we are justified (acquitted, declared righteous, and given a right standing with God) through faith, let us [grasp the fact that we] have [the peace of reconciliation to hold and to enjoy] peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed One). Through Him also we have [our] access (entrance, introduction) by faith into this grace (state of God’s favor) in which we [firmly and safely] stand. And let us rejoice and exhult in our hope of experiencing and enjoying the glory of God.” (Romans 5:1-2, Amplified).
and
“But now since you have been set free from sin and have become the slaves of God, you have your present reward in holiness and its end is eternal life…” (Romans 6:22).
I won’t try to argue theology. Just wondering why a salvation message isn’t preached to those who don’t know it? Why not let the believers in his charge grow up in the faith, move on into maturity, instead of remaining at the salvation message? Dear Quizzler, is my bird brain missing something?
I must add that, being out from under the sin-focused teachings for going on 13 years, my love and passion for Jesus has only increased, as has my faith, not through concentrating on my sin or the cross, but through abiding on the VIne, which is Jesus. It is the GOODNESS of God that leads men and women to repentance.
Canary, thank you for your kind words and compassion. You are so right. I am very, very grieved over the state of SGM but more importantly over my dear sisters and brothers in Christ who are still being deceived and who have been hurt. And yes, I do think they are being deceived. I know that I was deceived but my eyes have been opened. I think that SGM is very close to being a cult if not already there. I have seen too much to think otherwise. God can do anything and we are seeking Him and watching to see His mighty hand of grace and mercy. Right now, it appears that He is moving many out which I do believe is wonderful for this particular time. Is it a mass exodus?? I do not know.
I absolutely think that CJ and John Piper are using great liberty by using the word “scream” which is absolutely not biblical. For years and years, his messge has never changed. How often have we all heard that we are haters of God? It would be so encouraging for CJ et al to move beyond the God hating into the glorious truth of the victory that is ours througth Jesus and the great love that the Father demonstrates to us. Yes, recognizing our sinfulness is absolutely necessary but oh so much more necessary is seeing our loving Heavenly Father, our Savior and Lord, Jesus Christ and the wonderful Holy Spirit. The more we love Jesus, the more we do not want to sin. We are motivated and compelled by His love for us, not our sinfulness. Let’s get our eyes off ourselves and onto Jesus. How much more effective we will be for the Gospel!!
PS John, You certainly write well and have a great command of the English language.
Wanda,
I do see your point. Form watching the trailer, it seems that the men speaking were “emotionalizing” their words. I don’t trust that type of preaching anymore. But, that is just my take.
Fred said:
“The poor women in our previous SGM church were allowed to work in the kitchen and children’s ministry. They were allowed to use their gifts of hospitality and serving one another but honestly, that was about it. So sad.”
Thank you for recognizing that. Not many men did.
Fred,
Your 3:26 pm comment, AMEN.
Whoops–Quizzler.
First wrong answer.
Martin Luther DID try reform from inside the Roman church. He never expected to leave and start a new movement. That was why he was on trial–he was considered a disciple of Rome who was teaching heresy. He was a reluctant leader.
Second–I am sensing a very troubling storm cloud gathering over John/PK. Have you guys READ what he has written on this blog? Please read through archives before engaging in trying to challenge him about SGM. He is a tremendous hope for SGM.
I thought we held to the priesthood of the believers. Doesn’t John/PK have the right to discern what is best for him and his family? More than the rest of us, he knows what is wrong with SGM.
I struggle with despising SGM, and with hating the things I see in my cherished students: arrogance, blindness, lack of concern for the lost, exclusiveness, lack of biblical education…but John does not have children in SGM. Additionally, he is there for his family, too. He is not a Kool-aid drinker.
Third–Wanda, I ask you as my beloved sister in Christ, please be cautious about attacking someone like John Piper. You must be aware that I could let loose on a potload of Baptist pastors, but do not out of respect for you and other Baptists. Would you extend to me the same grace? You have often spoken with scorn about reformed theology, and seem to assume that your theology is defacto the correct one.
I worship in a presbyterian church, but would be comfortable in a reformed baptist church, like Piper’s. I can assure you that as a Baptist, you are probably slightly in the minority here. The rest of us, some reformed, some charismatic, some undecided, along with you, should all refrain from banging on other’s view of theology. We can all agree on the supremacy of God’s word, so let us use that as our base of understanding and as our guide for wisdom?
John Piper has nothing to do with SGM. He has sold millions of books that have caused people to trust in Christ more fully. He has impacted my life and the lives of many I know.
Have you read him extensively? His writing has caused me to more fully worship Jesus Christ, more fully understand grace and forgiveness.
Thanks for considering this, I truly appreciate your comments, my sister!
RT said: Whoops–Quizzler. First wrong answer. Martin Luther DID try reform from inside the Roman church. He never expected to leave and start a new movement. That was why he was on trial–he was considered a disciple of Rome who was teaching heresy. He was a reluctant leader.
Quizzler said: “The Quizzler wonders……………….would Martin Luther have been able to affect change from within the Roman Church? Obviously, he didn’t think so.”
Not quite getting this. RT, what part of Quizzler’s statement was in error here? We know that Martin Luther did have to leave the Catholic Church to bring forth change.
John and RT: (I still like calling John, PK)
We are all free in Jesus Christ and free go to any church that we believe God is calling us to, whether SGM, Baptist, Presby, etc. Isn’t that wonderful for each of us? But won’t it be more wonderful when we are altogether, worshipping and praising our Lord together without the boundaries and walls of denominations.
Please understand that for many of us who have experienced abuse or seen it firshand recently and just recently had our eyes open to the wrong doctrine and deception, control and manipulation, it is hard for us to understand those who want to stay. Please take no offense John or RT. Certainly, I respect you as a man who is seeking the Lord Jesus Christ and all that He has for you whether you stay or go. Just because I don’t agree doesn’t mean I am blowing storm clouds your way.
Hi Fred!
What I meant is that Luther DID think, for quite some time, that he would be able to effect change. Like PK, he stayed for a long time, trying to make the church look into the scriptures, to see grace alone, faith alone.
He didn’t leave, he was excommunicated and exiled.
Sorry if my remarks came across caustically. I didn’t mean them that way.
I simply see PK as a sort of Luther in a way–although I sincerely hope that he is still in SGM when the sea-change happens, unlike Luther, who was estranged from his beloved church.
Fred–re second comment,
You have to understand that I agree with YOU. We have been in an abusive church situation, and escaped by the grace of God. If PK was my kid, I’d tell him to run like crazy, yesterday at the soonest.
But for some reason, he is able to stand in the midst of the yuck.
No offense taken at all, in fact, please forgive me for my strident tone.
Sorry-late to the party…
RT-very well said. Thank you!
Guys, what if we just allow people to follow their own convictions? To stay or leave a local congregation is a huge decision, especially if you are leaving family members behind.
I know John, and if you spend the time to read his many posts here, you’ll know him better. He’s a deep thinker, and has a serious heart for God.
While I might disagree, I can understand some of our guests here having the opinion that if one is in SGM they MUST LEAVE NOW. If stated as a general opinion, I’m comfortable with that. Opinions are like noses-everyone has one.
To tell a specific person on this blog, especially a person who has helped keep our doors open, that they should leave their local congregation is a little over the top.
I’ve wanted to shut this place down 100 times. If you think we serve any purpose at all, you should thank John, as there has been times that he’s “kept us in business”.
I’m sorry, but I think any other response to John is not too cool.
I’d be a lot more comfortable if those who were opposed to John taking over the blog when he did had called me or sent an email during his one week of blog ownership.
Does every single conversation need to happen online? Why is public interaction preferred? Pick up the phone, send an email, get out your quill pen… well, maybe not, but really-everything does not have to be worked out in public.
Or…what Fred said at 4:11
If I may, I re-read Wanda’s posts and did not see her “attacking” Piper. She made a few comments regarding her opinion of something he said.
Jim and John have weathered storm clouds before. I think John has perfectly explained himself. If we are going to have reform and refuge on the same blog, the only way it will work is if we are patient with each other, right?
Hallejuah!! We are brothers and sisters in Christ and that is really what matters here. We can have our own opinions and express them to one another without attacking or condemning the other. That is what real unity is all about I do believe. We are working through things together, separate but together. Don’t we all have the same goal? I do believe so. All for the glory of God!
PS Wouldn’t it be a tad bit boring if we were all saying the same things!!
Fred,
Yes, it would be boring. We are learning from each other’s differences!
Hi Canary–
I was reacting to her comment, (and please forgive my tone, Wanda, reading back, I sound snarky and irritable), when she said:
“Once again, the “Reformed leaders” (CJ and John Piper, for example) take it upon themselves to “correctly interpret” Scripture. ”
CJ is no more reformed than he is Baptist or charismatic or orthodox. We’ve gone into this before. No one in the reformed world considers CJ to be a ‘leader,’ in fact few have heard of him.
Piper, sure. CJ–laughable. Linking them together–naaahhhhh. It would be like saying ‘Once again, “Baptist leaders” (CJ and Blackaby) take it upon themselves to ‘correctly interpret’ Scripture.’
Of course, I believe many reformed leaders correctly interpret Scripture. That’s why I tend to side, on most issues, with the reformed crowd.
Wanda believes, (I would suspect, please forgive an incorrect implication), that Baptist pastors would have a more ‘biblical’ interpretation of Scripture. That’s why she feels most comfortable in a Baptist church.
In our eternal home together, we will all know the truth, seeing face to face what we only see now through a glass darkly.
But at this point, we may want simply to extend grace to each other, strengthen our bonds as fellow believers, and hold out the beauty of the gospel of freedom to those in bondage in SGM.
RT,
Good words.
RT wrote, “CJ is no more reformed than he is Baptist or charismatic or orthodox. We’ve gone into this before. No one in the reformed world considers CJ to be a ‘leader,’ in fact few have heard of him.”
Absolutely, right on, BUT he is the leader of SGM “church” system. Those “under” him, if they want to move up the food chain, will NOT challenge him because their SG identity will be put in jeopardy. SG leaders are so indoctrinated to submit to those “over” them, their “covering” that they will not even talk about discontentment for fear of accusations of pride, rebellion, and passing on a bad report and the endless anti-rebellion tools that SGM have in play.
What a mess!!!
Fred & Wanda:
No offense taken, and we can certainly agree to disagree.
~John
G.D.,
It does seem like a mess, doesn’t it?
I posted a question earlier about why CJ preaches the Gospel to people who are already believers. Doesn’t anyone think this is odd? Why not take all that good stuff out to the streets, where lost people need to hear it? Why not let the believers in his care move on into maturity in Christ? I just don’t get it. Can someone explain this to me?
It is a term that really was brought into mainstream use by Jack Miller of World Harvest Mission decades ago, which SGM has tweaked around.
Miller’s concept was ‘to preach the gospel to yourself,’ meaning constantly reminding ourselves of our daily need for Christ and his resurrection power.
It is based on Galatians 3:3 and other verses, which warn us strongly against walking the Christian life out of our own strength, instead of depending on the work of God in our lives.
“2. Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? 3Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? 4 Did you suffer so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? 5Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith?”
It is a very sound principle, however it is the springboard from which life in Christ is experienced–the daily reminder of the finished work of Christ, of our overwhelming need for him, for repentance, for trust, for strength–then the calling of God on our lives are walked out.
I fear many in SGM stop short: no missions, no evangelism, no victory in Christ, little joy, little humility, little repentance.
Hi John,
Thanks for your reply to my earlier comment. I am gratified to hear that you know of young adults within SGM that are more balanced, gracious and mature than the recent sgmsurvivor pranksters. I truly hope that those guys are the minority, but I remain concerned for all the children and young adults who have been saturated with SGM their whole lives.
And as for my hope taking a hit… after further reflection (i.e. prayer) I realize that my hope will not waver as long as it is placed firmly on HIM. Don’t want to fall into the whole “hope deferred makes the heart sick” scenerio.
Canary,
Thanks for the Scriptures you shared and for this:
“I must add that, being out from under the sin-focused teachings for going on 13 years, my love and passion for Jesus has only increased, as has my faith, not through concentrating on my sin or the cross, but through abiding on the VIne, which is Jesus. It is the GOODNESS of God that leads men and women to repentance.”
RT,
I loved this:
“In our eternal home together, we will all know the truth, seeing face to face what we only see now through a glass darkly.
But at this point, we may want simply to extend grace to each other, strengthen our bonds as fellow believers, and hold out the beauty of the gospel of freedom to those in bondage in SGM.”
Sometimes I wonder if God doesn’t allow us as Christians to see things differently, not because one of us is so wrong and the other so right, but to give us an opportunity to extend grace and patience to one another, to see how we will treat each other on matters we disagree on that are not Scripturally mandated.
Gracie,
I think you may be right!
RT,
I understand and fully agree with the knowledge that I need Jesus every day. I do not wish to go back to working out my salvation in the flesh. I just don’t understand why the gospel is preached so constantly to believers, who should have moved on from the elementary teachings, to maturity in Christ. And why don’t these leaders go out into the world with their message, to speak to the lost? We have mentioned here before that evangelism is little practiced in SGM. They have the message. I just think they should stop preaching it to themselves, and go out into all the world. Anybody else see my point?
Hebrews 6:1-3 says: “Therefore let us go on and get past the elementary stage in the teachings and doctrine of Christ (the Messiah), advancing steadily toward the completeness and perfection that belong to spiritual maturity. Let us not again be laying the foundation of repentance and abandonment of dead works (dead formalism) and of the faith [by which you turned] to God, with teachings about purifying, the laying on of hands, the resurrection from the dead, and eternal judgment and punishment. [These are all matters of which you should have been fully aware long, long ago.] If indeed God permits, we will [now] proceed [to advanced teaching].” Amplified
But Canary,
I though we were never ever supposed to move past the Gospel. We need to preach the Gospel to ourselves in every thing all day long. If we move past the Gospel, we will lose sight of the Gospel.
If we lose sight of the Gospel, we will forget what Jesus did for us and we will become prideful, working out our salvation in our own strength.
We can NEVER move away from the Gospel.
Hey John? Got a question for you. How in the world have you not been targeted for dismemberment? I’m not doubting you, nor am I being snarky. This question comes as a sincere desire to understand how it is that you have been able to do what you do (ask the pointed questions of the leadership) without consequence while others who have done the same thing have targets painted on their foreheads.
After typing this, I realized I’m assuming quite a bit – I’m assuming that there have been no consequences to you. Perhaps there have been.
Also, are you afraid that your unmasking will harm you? You really are a courageous soul.
Canary, seems that the Quizzler is better at asking questions than giving answers. Anyway, as we are not to judge another’s heart, we cannot really know CJ’s heart in this and why he is not going out into the streets preaching the Gospel but continues to preach the salvation message to those who are already born again. Charles Simpson came to SGCC years ago and said that we must stop plowing in the barns but must open the barn door and go out and plow in the field. It was definitely a word from the Lord .
All of us on this blog are so very thankful that God saved us and regenerated our hearts and I am sure think of this often. However, the Scripture tells us in Hebrews 6:1-2 that we are to mature in Christ: “Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death and of faith in God , instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment” I read this quote, “Foundations are not to be laid again but built upon. this cannot be done apart from dependence on the help of God.” We are to go on to maturity in Christ, progressing beyond the elementary principles. This article states that spiritual infancy is lack of growth after the new birth, concerned with self rather than service, argument rather than action, looking to people rather than to the master.
Our former sr. pastor told us last fall that our hearts are like pig styes in the backyard. Is this true for believers even though the Holy Spirit is dwelling within our hearts? One thing that I wonder is this: a pastor probably teaches what he himself knows and is experiencing for himself. So, if pastors are only teaching sin and the need to be saved to a church full of believers, could it be because they themselves are not personally experiencing the victory of the Cross and Resurrection and have not matured? The above article states that “In maturity there is unity, reconciliation, healing, and of course, the manifestation of the love of Christ.” These are characteristics that are sadly lacking in much of SGM and most probably have caused many of their current problems.
So the bottom line is that I don’t know why CJ doesn’t teach his people to mature in Christ and why he doesn’t move the salvation message out of the barn into the fields which are ripe for the harvest.
Fred,
So the bottom line is that I don’t know why CJ doesn’t teach his people to mature in Christ and why he doesn’t move the salvation message out of the barn into the fields which are ripe for the harvest.
Man, this just blows my mind. I cannot understand it. I do remember when we were in PDI/SGM that we were like fat sheep, too full of teaching and self to be of any use to unbelievers. Now, I want to leave the fragrance of Christ where ever I go.
With such a burden for the gospel as these men seem to have, I believe there is an audience outside the “barn” that would greatly benefit from these leaders’ teachings. This is so puzzling to me. Why keep people who are already redeemed, in perpetual adolescence?
One more thing. Fred, you said, “Our former sr. pastor told us last fall that our hearts are like pig styes in the backyard. Is this true for believers even though the Holy Spirit is dwelling within our hearts?” Doesn’t this pastor come close to blaspheming the Holy Spirit? So many questions…
Sidney,
I am supposing that your 9:11 pm was “tongue in cheek”. Man, I am so glad I am free in Christ, that I can celebrate His goodness, His hugeness, His magnificence…I can’t get enough of knowing about Him. Thinking on Him like this beats sin digging any day!
Canary,
Of course. BUT that is exactly what I was taught for the last however many years. My entire christian life thus far…till almost a year ago when we left.
Sorry, Jim, for being sarcastic. It deserves sarcasm. It’s sick.
Sid
Remnant:
“Hey John?”
Hey Remnant.
“Got a question for you. How in the world have you not been targeted for dismemberment?”
No matter what answer I give to this it will never be satisfactory to some… all I can say is, many questions over many years. The leaders I encountered over the years happened to be approachable, for the most part. This doesn’t mean every meeting went great. I don’t know why others get targets painted on their foreheads.
“Also, are you afraid that your unmasking will harm you?”
Not really.
“You really are a courageous soul.”
Not really.
~John
John,
You are a courageous soul as you work toward reform in SGM, and I’m proud of your efforts. I’m also keeping you in my prayers.
Blessings,
Wanda
Hey John the Courageous,
I wasn’t asking for justification (remember, I gave up snarky for Lent – wait, I’m Jewish – I don’t do Lent – but I still promised to give up snarky). I was just wondering how you’ve managed to dodge the bullet. I find that amazing….and can only credit the Lord….I guess you’re the chosen one to stay and talk and ask those questions. I pray your efforts find their mark….high high high up the totem pole.
R
Jim said: Guys, what if we just allow people to follow their own convictions? To stay or leave a local congregation is a huge decision, especially if you are leaving family members behind.
This is so true Jim. I would never want to put a person in a position of pressure to make such a drastic move if he did not feel the Lords direction in that decision. True friendship and support do not require agreement. What God is wanting is primary. I think an amazing work is being done in both your heart and PK’s.
I thought his reasons for staying were very sound, sincere and well thought out. It takes deep commitment to stay when there are issues that disagree with our views.
It takes people like both of you to bring change.
Canary–
I totally see your point! And totally agree! This ‘preaching the gospel to yourself’ thinking is the basis from which a life is lived…constantly reminding oneself of our helplessness and need for Jesus.
From there, one grows, learns, studies to show ourselves approved, able to handle the Word of God, increases in the Fruit of the Spirit, practices mercy, justice, reaches the world for Christ.
The original thought of the “PTGTY” (I am tired of writing it out
) is not leaving behind the first things. But to continue to stay there, meditating endlessly on the cross and our sin, is elemental and dangerously self-focused.
What do you think?
Lion Heart!
Good to see you, my friend!! You’ve been on my heart and my mind, and in my prayers!
Canary, CJ says that we will never move away from the CROSS. He never says that we will never move away from the Gospel. Personally, I don’t think we should ever move away from the Gospel because this is the source of our life as a Christian. CJ’s messages as well as SGM in general imply that the Cross is the whole Gospel. This, I believe is why they continue to focus on sin and salvation leaving out the resurrection, ascension, and Holy Spirit, all which lead to victory and maturity for the believer. The Gospel begins with the immaculate conception of Jesus continuing with His birth, life, death, resurrection, ascension and I believe includes the gift of the Holy Spirit. My experience with SGM has been teaching that focused completely upon Jesus on the Cross. Sometimes it seemed as though Jesus was stilll suffering on the Cross which caused a distorted view on suffering and leaves no place for VICTORY and abundant living in Jesus. (Hence, the church’s view concerning women such as Esther having to stay in abusive marriages unto death.) Since this is their teaching and emphasis, maybe they think they can’t take the message out because those within still don’t get it. I don’t know…..
I have a suggestion for you, as a person who stumbled on these blogs years after leaving SGM: When you make reference to something like “parking lot excommunications” please make that a hot link to the story. I know it adds to the time it takes to make post, but I think it will give you more credibility and cause less confusion amoung your readers. When an accusation like that isn’t linked to the proof it loses impact and sounds like hearsay. I’ve read the blog for a little while now, I’ve tried to find the stories referenced and can’t, either because the search function doesn’t work, as on the SGM Survivor’s blog, or because it isn’t referenced as such in the original post.
Just my two cents. I hope and pray you succeed. I love my friends still within SGM and long for them to be free from the abuse and distortion of the gospel.
Thanks.
Re:john – I do apologize, and it was not my intention to even infer that you were a liar in this situation. I did phrase the questions very wrongly I see. Part of the confusion is that I have not been one who has known you as much – I started being more regular here when you were on your break so I don’t know you history or anything. And to be clear I am not one who said anything about you leading the group when Jim stepped down. I remember speaking to my wife about it and I was impressed by your writings and thought it was good having someone with more history in the church and in many ways good that it is someone who is in the church still, so that they know what is happening currently. I was somewhat disappointed just for the reason that I loved how Jim was open about who his real name was and that he could be contacted personally by phone even, and I think that shot down some of the criticism that it is people hiding and gossiping without accountability because of their annomaiinity. Not that I think everyone or even most people should be open on who they are – heck I’m relatively anonymous here – but it was nice having one leader person being in front. But I did not even post any concerns and understood Jim’s stepping down and thought you were a good leader for the group.
I completely understand wanting to stay and effect change from within, and have no problems with that. I am not one saying that everyone has to leave who realizes what is happening – though I do think most should. I fully believe that there could be/is people called to reform/speak out within the church, though that would be the minority. My posting was, unfortunately not worded well, and was intended to get more information about your vision of your role and express my amazement that if you were known SGM has not kicked you out. I am more wondering what you have seen your role as and if there is a tension in your desire/responsibility to speak out and your desire/need/calling to remain in SGM. I don’t know the answer, and know that I probably would be more callous and sinfully arrogant in my speaking and certainly be removed from SGM – but that is not a good thing. I do not know if you see your role as necessarily being anonymous (though this is moot now of course) and speaking in private, or whether you feel it is right to publicly make statements and make your objections known to the church at large. I have no intention or demeaning or judging you in this, I am just wondering where you stand and what you do. Rereading my post I completely bungled how it was said – that teaches me to avoid quick posts while I am eating lunch.
I also apologize for the comment about being in the church and I see how I essentially called you a liar, for this I ask forgiveness. I was reacting – sinfully – to one of my great SGM pet peeves in that the people I know always say how their are issues in every church so it wouldn’t be different. This is often said by people who have never been a part of another church and if they were they would see how while some of these issues might be present in every church, the degree and effect of them is completely different, and if a lot of the SGM, CLC in particular members ever really interacted with outside people and really knew how stuff is at other churches they would not say this. (now this is not to say that there is not people at CLC, and good friends of min, who don’t know how other churches and who do have friends outside of CLC, but sadly this is the great minority).
Once again I apologize and ask forgiveness for such a poorly worded and non-edifying post.
FreeIndeed,
I think this is your first post? If so, welcome!
This blog is is a little different, as the majority of my posts are directed towards SGM. I’m speaking to SGM.
I understand how this could be confusing to readers here, but rest assured, SGM national leadership knows exactly what I’m referring to in regards to Brent.
Presbyterian:
No worries, and I absolutely forgive you. Regardless of disclaimers I made, my apologies for accusing you of calling me a liar. I appreciate your heart for honesty.
In Christ,
~John
Hi Free Indeed!
Welcome. I like your gravatar!
Fred,
) present a distorted version of the gospel. Too much about our sinfulness, not near enough about the victory and new life that are ours in Jesus’ complete accomplishment. I feel like crap meditating on my sinfulness and what it cost the Lord, though I am eternally grateful He loved me enough to do it. I feel totally exhilarated, loved, restored, useful and valuable when I meditate on the fact that, through His Death AND Resurrection, I am a new creature in Christ. Thank God old things have passed away, all things are new! I have good standing with my Holy God and I have something of value to contribute to His Kingdom. JOY!
I agree. I think that some in SGM (see John – I’m on the lookout for that broad brush, again!
I heard a story once about an evangelist who was sharing the gospel with a townsperson. Upon hearing the good news, the townsperson said, somewhat nonchalantly, ”yes, I will accept the Lord.” The evangelist said, “No, I won’t pray with you yet. You’re not ready. Seek the Lord and I’ll come by tomorrow.” This same scenerio transpired over several days, beginning at first to intrigue, then befuddle and annoy the townsperson. Finally, he got on his face before God, allowing the Lord to reveal the depth of His Holiness and the horror of the townsperson’s own sin in comparison. He was undone. When the evangelist came the next day, the townsperson was practically begging for him to lead him to Jesus. You see, the evangelist was wise and discerning. He wanted more for the townsperson than just a salvation safety net. He wanted him to experience God and be reconciled to Him. He knew the first step, just the first step, was to understand our sinfulness, God’s holiness, and His great Love that worked a miracle for us.
I say all that to say, I understand the importance of emphasizing our sinfulness and God’s holiness, especially when it comes to communicating the gospel to an unbeliever. But when it comes to daily living, walking out my salvation with fear and trembling, I find much greater victory and joy when my focus remains on HIM and who I am in Him rather than my propensity to sin. I guess I would say, I move on from the cross, though I try to never lose sight of it, to Jesus’ victory in us and for us.
Well said Gracie!
Yes, although I am a sinner saved by grace, I think “I am a Saint who sins”better describes us who are in Christ Jesus. The first describes us when we walk independently of God; the second describes us as we walk in the Spirit, fully dependant on God. The first has its fruit and so does the second; the difference is that the second originates from the vine, the first from the branches. Ironically, both fruit at times looks the same but if we could bite into the two, we would immediately taste the difference, almost like biting into a beautiful peach our of season.
All of that to say, although the cross is critical, without the resurrection it is meaningless. LIFE was what we were missing and lost in the Garden but is offered to us anew via the resurrection. What we lost was restored. When we live out of that LIFE, HIS LIFE, the body of death, the works of the flesh go away, like darkness cannot remain where light resides.
Fred,
You said that CJ preaches the CROSS. Right. Good point. That is not the full gospel. I do thing the bible is clear about moving ON from elementary teachings (Heb. 6:1-3). If you do not, you create perpetual adolescence, where the group of believers never fully mature in the faith. The Good News is the foundation of our faith, but there is so much more to learn and grow in! So it still puzzles me why SGMers are not encouraged to move on. Sin digging is dead works, most of the time.
RT, you said,
The original thought of the “PTGTY” (I am tired of writing it out ) is not leaving behind the first things. But to continue to stay there, meditating endlessly on the cross and our sin, is elemental and dangerously self-focused.
What do you think?
I think the bible supports what you say. Moving on from the cross, but not forgetting it is healthy, in my experience. The Gospel is not just about the cross. To focus only on sin with believers will only encourage dead works, which Heb. 6:1-3 tells us we should not be participating in. It is also THE GOODNESS OF GOD THAT LEADS MEN TO REPENTANCE. When the Lord convicts me of wrong-doing or wrong thinking, He is tender and loving. Just that in itself makes me run to Him for correction. Those who are believers should be experiencing this already.
I say, go out to the lost, and preach the FULL Gospel. Let those who believe move on into maturity, so they can go out to the lost, as well. That is, in this little tweetie’s humble opinion.,.
Disclaimer – I am aware that there are some exceptions in SGM.
G.D.,
You say it well. You are describing the FULL Gospel. What good would Jesus’ death have been if He remained in the tomb? But He rose, conquering death and sin for all time. He was seen by many witnesses and then went up to be with our Father, leaving His Comforter, the Holy Spirit, behind so that we would not be alone.
Oh, the wonderous good news of the full Gospel!!!
Canary–good thoughts.
We need to divorce the Gospel from the cross in this sense: the Gospel is the good news that Jesus CAME for sinners.–it is not simply ‘pray the magic prayer (which never appears in Scripture) and you’ll be saved.’
He came to live for his people, enjoy his people, disciple his people, die for them, rise from the grave for them, ascend for them, and he ever lives to intercede on their behalf.
Concentrate on one portion alone gets you in trouble.
But the Gospel gets me through everyday. The fact the JESUS CAME FOR ME, A SINNER, changes my life. It becomes all about him–he becomes greater, I become less.
RT,
Yes, yes! I love it! That is the GOOD NEWS.
I have to also agree with G.D. when he says that he is a saint who sometimes sins. That is how the Lord sees us. Even Paul began his letters to “the saints” of such and such.
“[Now] we have this [hope] as a sure and steadfast anchor of the soul [it cannot slip and it cannot break down under whoever steps out upon it - a hope] that reaches farther and enters into [the very certainty of the Presence] within the veil, [Lev.16:2] where Jesus has entered in for us [in advance], a Forefunner having become a High Priest forever…” (Heb. 6: 19-20, Amplified).
My Hope.
Colossians 1:26-29
26 the mystery hidden for ages and generations but now revealed to his saints. 27 To them God chose to make known how great among the Gentiles are the riches of the glory of this mystery (Transliteration of the Greek word mysterion; a secret hidden in the past but now revealed), which is Christ in you, the hope of glory. 28 Him we proclaim, warning everyone and teaching everyone with all wisdom, that we may present everyone mature in Christ. 29 For this I toil, struggling with all his energy that he powerfully works within me.
Paul is saying to his audience in Colossae that the mystery, which was hidden but now revealed, is how you can live: HIS energy, His power, His presence, HIS fruit, for He said it well, “without me you can do nothing.”
Canary, you are a blessing.
G.D.,
Thanks Carole…… have fun at the beach
The cross is though keeps me grateful for without it there is no forgiveness of sin. Indeed, it was Gods provision and his plan. He did come for us but that was not enough. There had to be a blood sacrifice. A sacrifice that was sufficient and complete to reconcile us with God. The resurrection of our Savior! A visible sign and outward proof of his love. An inward hope that we also would be victorious over death because of his plan. I think he did want us to think of it often because it brings us mentally to a place of gratefulness for the gift.
Lion Heart said: I think he did want us to think of it often because it brings us mentally to a place of gratefulness for the gift.
Absolutely but let’s not make the Cross the Gospel and fail to walk in gratefulness for the entire Gospel. We so need every part of the Gospel and without one part, it would not be the Good News!! Many died on the Cross but only One was resurrected. Hallelujah! Christ is risen. He is risen indeed! This is the Good News! Because He died and was resurrected we have ALL our sins forgiven and He has overcome death for us. Let’s not walk around with our tails tucked between our legs and like dirty rotten worms! No let us walk around with our heads held high because the Father loves us, His Son died for us and calls us His friend and brothers and sisters in Christ, and the Wonderful Holy Spirit is dwelling within each of us. What a glorious day for each of us!
Lion Heart,
None of us deny the importance of Jesus’ death. We are pointing out that it isn’t the whole story. It isn’t the only part of the good news. That’s all.
This blog is is a little different, as the majority of my posts are directed towards SGM. I’m speaking to SGM.
I understand how this could be confusing to readers here, but rest assured, SGM national leadership knows exactly what I’m referring to in regards to Brent.
I’m sure they do. Really, I remember everything I went through in SGM and shudder. I still think it would lend weight to your arguments, but it’s your blog.
Also, I’m thinking that Jesus’ blood sacrifice would not have been enough, if He had not also conquered death itself. We must tell the complete Gospel. If Jesus had not been resurrected, seen by many, had not ascended to our Father in heaven, had not sent His Comforter, the Holy Spirit, so that we would not be alone, what would His death have meant, in the end?
The sin focus we were under in SGM did nothing more than paralyze a lot of us. We became self-focused, too bound up with our own dead works to make any lasting difference in the world around us. That is why I don’t understand leaders teaching believers only part of the good news. These people already know about the cross, the resurrection, the ascension, baptism, faith, freedom from dead works…or they SHOULD know. That’s the point – these believers should be past the elementary things, as Heb. 6:1-3 says.
The Gospel is our foundation. There is more to grow in. We should be past needing milk, and into eating the meat of the Word. Oh well, I am trying so hard to explain what I see. Maybe I just don’t come across clearly enough.
This discussion is not about any of us saying that the cross or the Gospel is unimportant. I think we are trying to say that, if the cross is taught in such a way that you remain in a sin-digging state for life, then there is something very wrong with that teaching. Do you get what I’m trying to say?
Yes, indeed!!! You are singing beautifully from the top of your cage.
Yup Canary! You are right on track and we are tracking with ya!
G.D. and Fred,
Good. I’m hoping that those in SGM who are reading this get my meaning, and understand my heart.
When my husband and I finally had to leave our SGM church, the pastor told us that we did not “understand the doctrine of sin”. You know what the real problem was? We did not understand the doctrine of RIGHTEOUSNESS. Now, we do. I’d far rather enjoy the Lord and learn as much as I can about Him as I wait in His presence. He’ll tell me if I sin. In the meantime, my joy only increases as my knowledge of Him does.
“For everyone who continues to feed on milk is obviously inexperienced and unskilled in the doctrine of righteousness (of conformity to the divine will in purpose, thought, and action), for he is a mere infant [not able to talk yet]!” (Heb. 6:13, Amplified)
After nearly 20 years in PDI/SGM, I knew ever so much about sinfulness, and hardly anything about the doctrine of righteousness. My ex-pastor had it so wrong. I could tell him bunches about his “sin” doctrine. He didn’t fail us, there. He failed us in not letting us move on into the things of God that lead us to maturity. He failed in teaching us about grace, about joy, about abiding on the vine, about the amazing fellowship a person can have with Jesus Christ on a daily basis.
However, our God is so merciful and loving. He did not leave my husband and I in an eternal state of babyhood. He showed us how to grow up in our faith. I wish this for every believer who remains under the sin-digging mentality. There is more, so much more to knowing the Lord!
Disclaimer – I realize there are exceptions in SGM.
As a follow-up to what Canary has shared, here are a couple of equations to ponder.
DOCTRINE OF SIN = BONDAGE
DOCTRINE OF CHRIST’S RIGHTEOUSNESS IMPUTED TO US THROUGH HIS SACRIFICE ON THE CROSS = FREEDOM
This doesn’t mean that as Christians we no longer sin. We begin a process of sanctification, and the Holy Spirit who indwells us continually convicts us of our sin. Sanctification is a process, not a destination, during our life here on earth.
DOCTRINE OF CHRIST’S RIGHTEOUSNESS IMPUTED TO US THROUGH HIS SACRIFICE ON THE CROSS = FREEDOM
Freedom plus Faith!!!
Canary………………….
Fred said (March 19 at 9:32 PM)………”seems that the Quizzler is better at asking questions than giving answers.”
I must admit that this is true (too many quizzes to grade lately). I also agree with Fred that none of us can know Mr. Mahaney’s heart.
That said, in answer to your question concerning his “continual preaching of the Cross to believers”, it may have to do with the fact that the Cross has an instant appeal to believers as well as universal acceptance- it is CJ’s “trademark” issue. (and the source for many of his writings). Many people take comfort in hearing the same message over and over and over again – no surprises, no questions, and no thinking involved.
Some other questions we may ask are …………
A) where is CJ, himself, headed?
He has personally become increasingly more involved with mainline denominations (Baptists in particluar) over the last few years.
He serves on the Council of the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals (ACE), and on the boards of The Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood (CBMW) and the Christian Counseling and Educational Foundation (CCEF).
……….and then there’s T4G
Together for the Gospel (T4G) began as a friendship between four pastors. These friends differed on a number of theological issues, like baptism and the charismatic gifts. But they were committed to standing together for the main thing—the gospel of Jesus Christ.
So they began a conference which occurs every two years and aims principally at encouraging other pastors to do the same—to stand together for the gospel. And now this conference is evolving, as God pleases, into an informal network of church leaders who all share this ambition and who intend to encourage one another to do the same.
T4G is convinced that the gospel of Jesus Christ has been misrepresented, misunderstood, and marginalized in many churches and among those who proclaim the name of Christ. The goal of these friendships, conferences, and networks is therefore to reaffirm this central doctrine of the Christian faith and to encourage local churches to do the same.
The four long-time friends, Mark Dever, Ligon Duncan, C. J. Mahaney, and Albert Mohler, also asked their friends Thabiti Anyabwile, John MacArthur, John Piper, and R. C. Sproul to join them for these conferences, since each of these men has been contributing so valuably to the church today.
For a more detailed explanation of T4G’s theological affirmations and denials, click here.
B) is CJ taking his movement on this journey of inclusiveness with other churches and movements, or is it his personal journey?
C) how much preaching from the pulpit in SGM churches relates to involvement with other parts of the Body of Christ?
……….so many questions, so little time.
N.S.L.B.
Hey Quizzler!
Interesting insights. Me thinks the Quizzler has as good grasp on answering questions as he/she does on asking them!
If CJ (not knowing his heart of course) is a member of ACE and T4G, why doesn’t his organization evangelize? I am so puzzled by how the gospel (and I will add, partial to this) continues to be preached to BELIEVERS! Why doesn’t SGM evangelize? Why church poach, instead? Do they think that believers not sitting beneath their teaching are not getting it right, so they are out to save Christians? Even this humble tweetie?
Please, please, somebody explain this to me!
Quizzler forgot to add quotes around the T4G section in the above comment. These were not Quizzler’s original words.
N.S.L.B.
I’m stuck in moderation, again! Flapping my wings, here…
I see ya, Canary
Hey G.D.,
Do you see my 1:17 pm post? It says I’m still in moderation.
Yes, I see your 1:17 post, no problem.
Cool, thanks. Hope your Saturday is going well!!!
You’re welcome. Hope you are feeling better today.
Canary – we evangelize. I mean, my church does. I wouldn’t presume to speak about what other sgm churches do. We are very serious about evangelism.
March 20th, 2009 at 3:56 pm
Disclaimer – I realize there are exceptions in SGM.
Canary
March 20th, 2009 at 12:44 pm
Disclaimer – I am aware that there are some exceptions in SGM.
Canary
Joel
would you mind giving an example of the evangelism your church does? thanks!
btw – just WHO is moderating these comments that are stuck and then suddenly not stuck if Jim and Carole are gone? hmmm….
Free Indeed, welcome, and I love your name! (and photo too)
The idea about the links is a good one..I think since many have been posting for so long here we tend to get a little familiar with quick references to previous posts, stories, etc and that we forget that to someone just beginning to read along, it may sound odd. SO much has happened in SGM churches just in the past year since the blogs have become known…lots of family meetings, people leaving churches, pastors being asked to step down, pastors leaving because of “gifting limitations”, apostolic directives going out, etc…so it just saves time to give quick references..but, feel free at ANY TIME to just ask what is being talked about..you probably aren’t the only one who doesn’t know.
and just so you know, Jim (the host here) doesn’t post random stories/information without verifying things…he makes calls, gets more info, gets the information from more than just one source..that sort of thing. Most hosts don’t go to that effort on blogs, but he does, and it really has made all the difference. (btw, Kris over at Survivors does the same thing – checking sources, etc.)
again, welcome to the Refuge..
Juli -
According to my understanding, “evangelizing” is sharing the good news of salvation with unbelievers. I do that, my wife does that, our church friends do that – the college ministry REALLY does that and very effectively too! It’s part of our lifestyle. What level of detail are you asking for?
Joel, just YOUR deinition, that’s all!
I asked because for many in SGM (and other denominations too) the common answer often falls under the category of church planting or trying to get people to come to church. But they never stop to think that our mission field begins between our own two feet. It sounds like you and your family are actually living out the gospel and it is part of who you are, not what you simply do from time to time. Praise God!
I see preaching and sharing the truth about the gospel (Good News) as a lifestyle – and it is accomplished all the time, anywhere we are at any given time, and with whoever will listen – as Jesus said: He who has ears, let him hear.. It is not planned, coordinated, or anything else. And it also includes much more than SGM teaches. SGM loves to say that we should preach the gospel to ourselves..well, someone on the blogs (Ellie or Kindred Spirit I think) once said: “We’re so busy preaching the gospel to ourselves we never get around to sharing it with anyone else!”
I so agree. And I preached an incomplete gospel to myself while in SGM to boot. So it was really no gospel at all. It was the gospel of the Galatians. And it brought death, not life. Not so much good news if you ask me!
I will have to state that in my experience at CLC – there was a lot of evangelism going on. They would go to the mall and do witnessing, they would invite friends to stuff they did outreaches at a hoc section apartment, they do several college outreaches, etc. One of the biggest tools they used for evangelism was ALPHA and they would do a free concert with big name bands/performers to advertise ALPHA. So I would have to say that in my experience at CLC and with other SGM churches they do a lot of evangelism. Now in my experience, they do not partner for evangelism, CLC would not even partner with other SGM churches for it, and they do not support para church and they do not do missions, or support charity really, but evangelism that will add numbers to their church they seem to support fairly well.
Presbyterian,
Here’s the problem I have with Alpha. To me, seems like another case of “let the pro’s handle it”. Alpha is a big production. In smaller churches, all of the meals are made and served by the members. The members are to invite their friends, and in some churches, invite strangers to an ongoing event. During this event, the pros (pastors) share the Gospel with those in attendance.
My question and concern is, is this the Christian life? In the one time in the NT that the word pastor (which means shepherd) is used as a noun, their job description is clear. To equip the saints for the work of the ministry.
Now, is the work of the ministry making meals and inviting people to hear the pastor speak?
My opinion is that the time and effort that goes into Alpha would be much better spent teaching the saints how to evangelize. The saints, unlike their pastors, interact with unbelievers every day of their lives. In the workplace, we’re talking about 40 hours a week.
Consider the time and resources that go into an Alpha event. What if the same time and resources were spent teaching the saints evangelism? Which would bear greater fruit for the kingdom?
While I have seen good things with Alpha/Crossroads, I would have to agree that training the flock to evangelize -particularly those that have a heart for it and are asking for teaching/training- would be a goldmine in terms of time investment. My thoughts on bigger churches who have the staff and resources: Why not do both?
~John
Yeah, we did the same at our SGC as well. But my feeling, even when fully engaged in the SG-land system, was that the underlining current was to build up the consumer base.
Jim - I wholeheartedly agree, and think that at CLC everything is centralized and controlled by them, even evangelism. I wish they were more engaged in the community and took more risks and were more real, though many peopel are. I do also know that there is an emphasis on reaching out to your neighbors, i think the problem is that it alwasy seems to be something you have to do, a task, adn not a natural part of your life. Like the only reason a SGM person interacts with outsiders is to bring them into the SGM fold. I just highlighted this to dispute that there is not an emphasis in evangelism, i think SGM has many many problems, but a lack of evangelism is not one of them – the evangilism might be misdirected, but it is there.
Jim said: Alpha is a big production. In my experience with SGM, everything was a big production and things looked really great on the outside. It is the cup clean on the outside but the inside is a totally different story. This is part of what draws people in – it all looks good and alive but it isn’t. When the whitewash peels away, you see that it is all a big production with players that look good but that’s just it – it’s all players and no real life. A good example of this was SGCC’s 20th Anniversary Party/Celebraton. They spent $20,000 on this party, impressing the big guys with the great performance and yet they were not taking care of the sheep (spending around $1000 on the needy that same year). You are told that SGM is sound doctrine, all about relationships, all biblical prinicples but it is not. It is more talk than action, even with evangelism, with man centered doctrine, principles, relationships, etc. It is all a facade.
In some previous posts above, evangelism was discussed with its meaning and how it was demonstrated. In reference to that, I thought it would be helpful to briefly consider what Major Thomas wrote.
May I quote part of what Major Ian Thomas wrote on page 151 in his book, The Indwelling life of Christ. He writes, “You and I are always, twenty-four hours a day, in the business of evangelism, as we allow the Lord Jesus to clothe His Deity with our humanity so that others can meet the man called Jesus in us.
I see this as the deeper meaning of what we really are in Christ. When I read that this morning, I thought YES!!!! that is it. That’s what we are missing in our Western Christian mind-set. We want to do evangelism; we want to organize and package it, making it an event or activity of us doing something for Christ. Major Thomas is describing it as the life of the resurrected Christ living in us and out of us, AS US. The difference is profound in my mind.
GD… YES!!!
Thank you for posting this… Major Thomas totally nailed it!
G.D.
Great post. Years ago, someone asked my husband what he saw as his “ministry, calling, giftedness”. His response was” that person, or task before me at every moment is what I am called to do.” It may change from day to day, but isn’t our true ministry to be HIS hands & feet to a dying world?
He has never been one to look at “giftedness” as a particular thing. To him it has always been whatever is before him, is what he is called to do: hopefully glorifying and exhibiting Jesus in the process. I know this doesn’t apply to all, but this is how we have tried to live…(being as we are though, have failed many times), but always rejoiced in the fact, knowing that He saw our hearts, and smiled each time we try again…
MiMi
Mimi, I love your husband’s response! It is Christ living in us, as us, isn’t it? We are so bent on doing instead of being. The being (jars of clay containing the resurrected Christ) always translates into doing. That’s the mystery of the gospel in Colossians 1:27 “CHRIST IN YOU.” Then the fruits of our lives are HIM, not me trying to appease (by doing) a Father who has already been fully appeased by His Son. The Christian life is much more than forgiveness; it is receiving LIFE, HIS LIFE, and allowing that life to manifest itself out through us, as us.
SD,
You are so right. ‘CHRIST IS LIVING IN US’ He is no longer hanging on the cross, inactive, unmoving, and dead. I feel at times, that the western church has it all wrong today. We have forgotten that old hymn “because HE lives”, I can face tomorrow. ” The empty tomb created “tomorrow”. So much of the rest of the world are truly suffering for our JESUS, while in this country, we are suffering because of man.
Richard Wurmbrand, a Russian believer was imprisoned for almost twenty years in the 1960′s-80′s. While in prison, every time he shared the gospel, he was taken and tortured. Later, when freed, he was asked why he continued to share knowing that the torture would come. His response: “I shared first for their soul. Secondly and most wonderfully, I shared for me. Every time I was put on the torture table, the Holy Spirit would come to me and commune. Who wouldn’t do whatever it took to have that sweet, joyful time?” WOW…….. THAT IS LIVING IN THE JOY OF THE RESURRECTION. That is allowing JESUS to live through us…..That is the freedom the resurrection brings, because there would have been no need for the comforter to come had Jesus not been once again alive to ascend to the Father.
I believe, so many of the scriptures we know and have learned through the years, in our minds, we should remember “because HE lives/is risen” that will bring such joy in all we do, meet, face and walk through.
“ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE, (BECAUSE HE LIVES/IS RISEN)
“I CAN DO ALL THINGS THROUGH CHRIST JESUS” (BECAUSE HE LIVES/IS RISEN)
“I HAVE NOT A SPIRIT OF FEAR, BUT A SOUND MIND” (BECAUSE HE LIVES/IS RISEN)
The embodiment of who HE is and what HE accomplished is in the resurrection.
The joy of that act, and the freedom it brings is available to all of us. We need to pray and intercede that all will come to know it, and recognize that it comes from no man or our relationship with him, BUT only through relationship and love affair with the risen Savior.
MiMi
G.D. and Mimi,
Maybe that is why I didn’t see new believers coming into the two churches I was involved with. Maybe that is why church plants mostly drew believers as members. Evangelisim has to be what we live every day as we abide in Christ. There must be love and compassion in us that shows Jesus to humanity. People will be drawn to Him, not us. If we don’t abide in Christ, we won’t have the compassion and love that is real. All we really have to offer, then, is religion.
“Mimi, I love your husband’s response! It is Christ living in us, as us, isn’t it? We are so bent on doing instead of being. The being (jars of clay containing the resurrected Christ) always translates into doing. That’s the mystery of the gospel in Colossians 1:27 “CHRIST IN YOU.” Then the fruits of our lives are HIM, not me trying to appease (by doing) a Father who has already been fully appeased by His Son. The Christian life is much more than forgiveness; it is receiving LIFE, HIS LIFE, and allowing that life to manifest itself out through us, as us.”
Thanks, y’all!! This is GOOD.
Ellie
FRED
rch 23rd, 2009 at 1:09 pm
Jim said: Alpha is a big production.
They spent $20,000 on this party, impressing the big guys with the great performance and yet they were not taking care of the sheep (spending around $1000 on the needy that same year). You are told that SGM is sound doctrine, all about relationships, all biblical principles but it is not. It is more talk than action, even with evangelism, with man centered doctrine, principles, relationships, etc. It is all a facade.
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When pastors teach the flock for works of ministry, who is that ministry directed towards? Would you agree that it’s directed to both the saved and the unsaved? Well, you quickly roll out the budget of tangible church bank account figures as if all the help must come from the coffers of the budget (I agree, a sad one too). But for my point, if we, the congregation are to perform works of ministry, how many years must I sit in a pew and wait? Wait till my Pastor takes me, holds my hand? I say not. I say arise oh sleeper and get into the fields that are ripe with harvest!
Regarding your comment on providing for the needy; that amount (1000.00) is one tangible data point, but you have sorely missed the thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours helping those in need in SGC Chesapeake. Wow? You missed it right by (for those who are in the church and those without). How could you have missed that, didn’t anyone on SGM Refuge share that information with you? I don’t know of a way to keep track, but I’ve seen a lot of blessings go out to families that didn’t make it from the church budget. I guess its designed that way, but it should be.
I wonder who did such a wonderful thing, helping (and still helping). I would argue that it was done by the same Christian(s) who were taught to love one another, that if you have something and you see your brother in need, you help them. That attitude is established, firmed up, and sustained by the Power of the Holy Spirit as he works through the SGM Pastors to effectively teach God’s word so that those who have plenty are helping many, this all taught in SGM and at SGC Chesapeake. That information is continually being left out of stories. Please speak all the truth when sharing what has happened.
The body performing body ministry is glorifying God in the world.
And yes, the official benevolence needs fixed too. Maybe it was ignored since so many care groups and families were helping. Maybe it wasn’t asked for either. Lots of maybes.
Mimi and Gratefully,
I love this discussion. At our old PDI church, we had a pastor who would sit you down, ask what your giftings were, and do all that he could to equip you and send you off to do them. Then, the apostle came. Things changed. After a time, the pastor left, first to start a new PDI church plant, then he left PDI entirely.
I always found his approach more respectful and cognizant of the fact that the Holy Spirit is abiding and working in EACH of us rather than the more overbearing, apostolic/pastoral super authority that replaced it (at least in some places).
My husband has some very obvious giftings musically. He also has some very long-held desires and uses for his gifting that he has been waiting many years for the Lord to bring to fruition. Long ago, he stopped looking for his pastors to appreciate and support these desires. They usually see his gifting in the light of their vision for the local church and keep him so busy there, no time is left for pursuing what’s really in his heart. I wonder, Musicman, have you encountered this as well? I’m not really criticizing the pastors, maybe they are just not gifted to know what’s in people’s hearts? I think there would be pretty good Scriptural backup for that!
At any rate, that ‘s why I like this conversation and sopwith’s comments on the other thread. To combine my thoughts from the two threads here…
Christ is in my husband, leading and guiding him daily. He desires most of all to use the gifting he has been given to glorify Him in the earth. If he is abiding in the Lord, following hard after Him, then the things the Lord has placed in his heart will come to pass in God’s timing, whether anyone else, pastor or otherwise, is ever allowed a glimpse of them or ever confirms and supports them. There doesn’t need to be striving or too much focus on “doing”, just ABIDE with the Lord and things will unfold. There’s peace in this.
I hope these ramblings are making sense…
ItsHome:
I have some questions concerning your previous comment for Fred. You said:
“When pastors teach the flock for works of ministry, who is that ministry directed towards? Would you agree that it’s directed to both the saved and the unsaved? Well, you quickly roll out the budget of tangible church bank account figures as if all the help must come from the coffers of the budget (I agree, a sad one too). But for my point, if we, the congregation are to perform works of ministry, how many years must I sit in a pew and wait? Wait till my Pastor takes me, holds my hand? I say not. I say arise oh sleeper and get into the fields that are ripe with harvest!”
Fred said:
FRED
rch 23rd, 2009 at 1:09 pm
“They spent $20,000 on this party, impressing the big guys with the great performance and yet they were not taking care of the sheep (spending around $1000 on the needy that same year). ”
I do not see that Fred said anything indicating that he thought that the pastors alone must care for the broken and needy in the church. I do believe that Fred was giving facts that are well known by most at SGC Chesapeake. Of course you are right that the body is responsible for helping the needy but let’s remember that the corporate church is as well. Many folks are faithfully giving their tithes and offerings believing that at least part of their money is going to help the needy (and yes, even the needy in the church). I personally know of many who have stopped giving to the Mission Fund at SGC Chesapeake because so little was being given to missions and to the needy but was instead being used to pay off the church mortgage early. I also know of the various hurdles that one must jump over to get financial help from ”the church” (interviews with administrator in which one’s personal budget and income tax form 1040s are reviewed, etc). Was there more than $1051of need that year – absolutely. There is no way of knowing how many dollars were provided to the needy within the church by care groups and individuals, but I expect it was well in excess of the pitiful amount provided by “the church.” I personally know of families and individuals who gave in excess of $1000 in one month to the needy. I also know that ”Esther” wanted to take her 2 youngest children to the regional youth meeting in July of 07 but she didn’t have the $$. She asked a pastor if their were any scholarships available through the church that would help her take the children. She was told NO. Now this was the same year as the $20,000 anniversary party/celebration. I would believe that we all agree that this was grievous!
I believe, ItsHome, that one needs to look at the definition of a pastor. Webster defines pastor as a shepherd or a clergyman or priest in charge of a church or congregation.
Now let’s look at the word God gives the shepherds in Ezekiel 34:1-10 1The word of the LORD came to me: 2(A) “Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel; prophesy, and say to them, even to the shepherds, Thus says the Lord GOD:(B) Ah, shepherds of Israel(C) who have been feeding yourselves!(D) Should not shepherds feed the sheep? 3(E) You eat the fat, you clothe yourselves with the wool,(F) you slaughter the fat ones, but you do not feed the sheep. 4(G) The weak you have not strengthened, the sick you have not healed,(H) the injured you have not bound up,(I) the strayed you have not brought back,(J) the lost you have not sought, and with force and harshness you have ruled them. 5(K) So they were scattered, because there was no shepherd, and(L) they became food for all the wild beasts. 6My sheep were scattered; they wandered over all the mountains and on every high hill. My sheep were scattered over all the face of the earth,(M) with none to search or seek for them.
7″Therefore, you shepherds, hear the word of the LORD: 8(N) As I live, declares the Lord GOD, surely because(O) my sheep have become a prey, and my sheep have become food for all the wild beasts, since there was no shepherd, and because my shepherds have not searched for my sheep, but the shepherds have fed themselves, and have not fed my sheep, 9therefore, you shepherds, hear the word of the LORD: 10Thus says the Lord GOD,(P) Behold, I am against the shepherds, and(Q) I will require my sheep at their hand and(R) put a stop to their feeding the sheep.(S) No longer shall the shepherds feed themselves.(T) I will rescue my sheep from their mouths, that they may not be food for them.
It is interesting to see that the expanded SGC Chesapeake Mission Statement places “personal care” under the care groups! Maybe you are right after all……………the sheep shouldn’t expect to get any care from the pastoral staff. Maybe $1051 was an extravagant amount.
Move on Scott….Perhaps you should direct your care and attention toward your new church and leave the disasters and chaos of SGCC to those who are left behind.
McD said at March 28th, 2009 at 10:16 pm
“Move on Scott….Perhaps you should direct your care and attention toward your new church and leave the disasters and chaos of SGCC to those who are left behind.”
While it’s true that I have moved on and I am attending another church regularly, I do still have many great friends in the Chesapeake Church that I care a great deal for (you may even be one of them)! I continue to pray for the church and all who are there. I am also confident that God is doing a mighty work there.
Praying is a great and mighty thing…perhaps you should stick to that and lighten up on what appears from you comments to be not praying.
Wow, McD… not a very nice judgment of your brother…
Tsk, Tsk!
Scott,
No one disagrees that the amount of the fund was disgraceful, I mentioned something to that end. There are many scriptures we can banter with, do you really want to go that route when Jim already mentioned he doesn’t want a war blog?
That won’t be helpful, so please refrain from striking blows with God’s word.
Question: are your friends who are still at SGCC “blind, asleep, deceived,” or anything else that would be demeaning towards those whom God has called to that congregation?
(Family meetings at SGCC have always disclosed the finances)
Alpha: Find a course
This course search features our most current information about churches running the Alpha course. The results are based on our best information on these courses. Please call the church to get the most up to date information.
http://www.alphausa.org/Group/.....1000024493
A lot of churches doing Alpha.
Yes, isn’t Scott part of one of the three couples that courageously stood up to the establishment in the Esther story? Am I right on that? If so, I applaud you Scott. Thanks for putting yourself in harm’s way for one of God’s little one’s. You are to be thanked!
Welcome
Over 13 million people worldwide have now attended an Alpha course, an opportunity to explore the meaning of life, running in tens of thousands of churches of all denominations, and at universities, in prisons and on military bases across the world.
Is it just me, or am I missing something. All the seminaries, Greek scholars, conferences, seminaries, Sunday School classes, Alpha classes, and so on, and then I read something like Acts 17:6 and wonder—WHAT is going on? All the money and time we spend—where is the LIFE, the POWER???
Acts
17:6
When they did not find them, they dragged Jason and some of the brothers before the city officials, shouting, “These men who have turned the world upside down have come here too
(I know just a little about ALPHA, but enough to know this:)
It amazes me that SGM is involved with ALPHA–it is used in all sorts of absolutely horrendous churches that simply don’t know how to worship AT ALL and teach all sorts of horrible doctrines and support foreign missionaries and use creeds and elect elders (even women ones) and have liturgy even and ordain women , like Methodists and Episcopals and Lutherans and PCUSA and even <gasp!> Catholics.
(tongue firmley planted in cheek, for newer posters. I am a diehard conservative PCA gal, but I know the Bride of Christ is scattered everywhere for his glory and his joy.)
I find this a good thing! Is perhaps the SGM moving out from its tiny bubble and joining the rest of us in the large world of the Body of Christ? What a blessing!
RT,
Maybe SGM isn’t as bad as everyone is painting it.
ItsHome, You said, you said in your last post, “maybe SGM is not so bad?” May I ask you a question? Hoping that you say yes, I will go ahead with my question. Obviously you do not think SGM is so bad so how are you processing all of the information that is now in the light demonstrating authoritarian control, many abuses of the flock, wrong doctrine, emphasis on sin and the Cross and very little if any teaching on the Resurrection, Ascension, and Holy Spirit, poor management of money, abusive counseling, etc.? Also, why do you believe (I am assuming you believe) that their polity is right? It would be very helpful to hear what you are doing with all of this. Also, would you mind telling us what SGM church you are a part of? Are you in leadership? Thanking you in advance for your answers.
ItsHome,
You said:
“Question: are your friends who are still at SGCC “blind, asleep, deceived,”
Yes they are.
ItsHome,
The fact that SGM is crawling out of the bubble to do ALPHA is very interesting to me.
The weird thing about their first foray into the world of the rest of us believers is that they picked a very very vanilla ‘course’ to offer, instead of a more mature evangelical/reformed introduction to the Gospel type thing.
I do not say that SGM is bad–I’d never say that. It is filled with my fellow believers in Jesus, with whom I will spend eternity.
I do think your Church leadership’s polity is based on a Catholic model, which is controlled by a Pope, instead of a biblical model, which emasculates many of your men, who will never be given any true responsibility for their own church.
I think holding up a handful of men and women as the models for lives pleasing to God is dangerous, breaks the hearts of the sheeple who actually believe that their unique talents and giftings are therefore not important, and ignores the work of the Holy Spirit.
I think teaching that every woman has to be under the covering of a male is anti-biblical and silly. Please show me chapter and verse in the Bible, not from your pastors, this, and I will certainly reconsider. I know older single women living with families because they are not to live on their own. Are they going to turn into lap-dancers at the Kitty Kat Klub if they don’t have a male to keep them in line? Why don’t you guys ever read Prov. 31?
I think the emphasis on dumbing down your SGM kids is ludicrous and an affront to the God who gave them brains. Many many many of them spend an hour or two on homework, go to substandard community colleges and on to substandard local colleges. Trust me, I know more about this one than you. It breaks my heart and makes me cry to foresee the complete lack of standing they will have in the world one day, if they are ever allowed out. No lawyers. (well, maybe that is a good thing
). Doctors? Teachers? University Professors? Writers? Artists? There are no dreams among your children of anything else but courting one day, and that is their main topic of conversation, besides college sports. (So sad that most of them could never attend those colleges they watch so avidly on the tube each weekend.)
I think the Gospel many of your pastors teach is legalism–courtship/homeschooling/modesty is not the Gospel. Not taking the good news to the world as COMMANDED by Jesus is not the Gospel. Judging the rest of the brethren who worship outside SGM as lesser than you is an outrageous affront to the ManGod who died a scandalous death for his people. Listening to SGM sermons (and I have) that declare that SGM knows better than all the other churches in town ‘how to do worship’ and that the other churches in town ‘teach a watered down gospel’ is about the most juvenile and fantastical thing I have heard.
Teaching your children not to sit next to a person of the opposite sex, but never having them learn the truths of the Bible, Genesis to Revelation, never teaching them the stories of David and Samson and Elisha and Deborah, Rahab and Elijah and Job and Jonah, never reading Proverbs, never learning the history of Israel….good night–what the heck are you guys doing?
My brother, my sister, come out. If you choose to stay in, open your eyes and pray for change and freedom.
So, SGM bad? No. You are the blood bought Bride of Christ.
All SGM pastors bad?
Good heavens, no. There are, I suspect, many who grow up in the pastorate, but are staying and loving their flock and showing them the path.
Your national leadership completely whacked out?
Absolutely.
Wow RT, you’re on a roll. ” Your national leadership completely whacked out?
Absolutely.”
You know, the Chesapeake thing wouldn’t be happening if the leadership there hadn’t been held to account. They did not come forward to make changes on their own. It reminds me of Bill Clinton, who only confessed to wrong-doing AFTER it was proven. If one of my kids behaved like that (hiding the truth til someone caught them), they were disciplined for LYING.
canary–you are back! we missed you.
Thanks, RT. I’m feeling a bit better, today. I’ve been catching up on all the posts. Interesting happenings at Chesapeake…
RT,
THAT (at 8:43) was a great post.
When our family left MetroLife Church in Orlando after six years as members, my heart was broken. Although we left of our own accord, I felt the loss of my dear friends, whom I still love, and was grieved. I cried until I could cry no more, but I still felt as if tears were running down the inside of my heart. Deep depression and despair had led to our decision to leave the church. (Perhaps I will share that story at another time.) My husband just said, “We’re not going back.” And I said, “Good.” I knew it was the right choice for us. When the pastor tried to reason with us, we stood firm and united. I seemed as if a huge wall had gone up between my dearest friends and me. I had cut myself free from my network of social relationships, and I was hurting. Was there any hope for friendship unless we were members of that church?
One day I was driving along, crying, and praying, “Will this barrier between my friends and me ever be removed?” And just then, like the tone of a tiny, high, clear bell, I heard, “Weren’t you surprised when the Berlin Wall fell?” I knew I wasn’t making this up, because it SO surprised me! (I did remember my surprise when I had heard on the evening news a few years before that the Berlin Wall had come down that day!) So I puzzled and pondered knowing that I had done nothing to bring down the Berlin Wall! My efforts to restore broken relationships were fruitless, but that was OK. It was in God’s hands.
Months later a friend gave me a recording that he thought I might like. I can’t remember what the message was about but just that it included, “Religion will fall like the Berlin Wall.” I had no idea HOW or WHEN this was going to happen, but it gave me great faith for the restoration of real spiritual fellowship.
Another clear, high bell that has been ringing in my heart is that of the Good News of the gospel going all around the world digitally. This week I found your site and read Wanda’s March 14 post: “Did you realize it was the internet that contributed to the collapse of the Soviet Union?…The information age has taken a dramatic turn, and there’s no turning back!” I just had to write and tell you that this is something that has been important to me for a long time. Once we release the digital file to the www. there is no getting it back. I want to see the healing and blessing that comes from encouraging one another in faith go around the world. I see it as being like the foxes whose tails were set ablaze by Samson and released into the wheat fields of the Philistines, the nation to whom the Israelites were in servitude (Judges 15:4-5). Once the standing grain and vineyards caught fire, there was no calling the foxes back. My Internet browser is “Firefox”. What are the chances!
Hope, welcome to the site–and thank you for sharing such an encouraging word! God works in mysterious ways.
That was so encouraging. Thanks for sharing!
Hope-Welcome!
Love the name, love the message.
I hope you hang around…
Hi Hope!
That was such an encouraging comment! I, too, hope you stick around!
Hope,
Thank you for sharing. It is good to keep our hope focused on God and not men in regard to SGM, otherwise the long deferred hope many of us have held for reform can make us heartsick. But God…!
Welcome to the site. Glad you’ve joined us.