The following is a copy-and-paste job of a comment I made recently under the “Take it Down a Notch” subject. Jim referred to it as the Road that Leads to Nowhere, and I thought that was the perfect description:
~~~
Beloved:
This is an interjection, and not directed at anyone specific.
I have to put in my two cents on our polity, since that word is floating around here. I’ve sat on my hands long enough.
It can best be summed up this way (and for those who think this is an unfair characterization and oversimplification, I urge you to read Dave Harvey’s Polity to verify what you think are questionable conclusions on my part).
From our (SGM’s) FAQ:
This is an important question, but one that requires a more detailed answer than can be given here. Please see the issue in our Perspectives series, “Polity: Serving and Leading the Local Church,” by Dave Harvey (also available as a free PDF download).”
Okay… so let’s go to Polity; when it comes time for soup to nuts (particularly the defense of the office of modern-day apostle), we get the ultimate cop out phrase:
Although a full treatment of the biblical, theological, lexical and historical issues involving present-day apostles are well beyond the scope of this paper, an introductory defense is necessary to justify principle behind our polity. (Harvey, Polity, 17)
Well beyond the scope of this paper? Doesn’t the Bride of Christ deserve something a little better than an “introductory defense?” Yes, we do!
And we have yet to get it. So on and on around the theological mulberry bush we go. Visitors get sent to the website, the website sends them to Harvey’s Polity, Harvey’s Polity sends them on a wild goose chase to verify “Endnotes” that take up almost half the pages (no joke) of the 54-page Polity, and when you point out discrepancies like why Harvey chose to wrench Wayne Grudem’s quote out of context, then the armwrestling match begins.
You are asked what your motives are, what you’ve been reading, who you are talking to, where your heart is at, etc. etc. etc.
In my opinion (and please take note this is an opinion, so everyone please don’t get your suspenders in a knot over this): Three and half decades and a solid defense and description of our polity you will never get.
I beg our leaders to prove me wrong.
~pk
~~~
I would also add that when the subject of polity comes up here at SGM Refuge & Reform in the comments section of any post, my brothers and sisters in SGM go slipping away silently (that’s my observation, and not an attack). I, for one, would like to know why.
What’s the response you’ve been given when you inquire about the leadership structure/polity at your church, SGM affiliated or not?
~pk
PK,
First let me say that I like the new name. I would like your thoughts on something that was pointed out in CLC’s articles of incorporation, that is the non-Religious, code 4 notes that appear on this document.
http://sdatcert3.resiusa.org/U.....asp?Film=B 00363&Folio=0094&Pages=0003&Date=04 01 2002&Ack=1000361986842726&Domain=Charter&ID=D06734453&Name=COVENANT LIFE CHURCH, INC.&source=1
Then there is this statement from the SGM Statement of faith;
The Church is not a religious institution or denomination. Rather, the Church universal is made up of those who have become genuine followers of Jesus Christ and have personally appropriated the gospel.
So when SGM refers to the church, I will for this post, assume they mean SGM churches. The latter statements of the church universal seem meaningless to me in their statement as SGM, in my experience, is inward and exclusive to themselves.
My question is this, If the church is not a religious institution or denomination, how are we to apply any pre-existing structure / polity to it?
Their statement to me seems to be where the path to nowhere begins.
How are we to call them to something that they may feel does not apply to them?
Is SGM EXEMPT from any meaningful definition or accountability?
Then we get back to Apostles / Appointment when we look into their reasons for their Polity;
Although a full treatment of the biblical, theological, lexical and historical issues involving present-day apostles are well beyond the scope of this paper, an introductory defense is necessary to justify principle behind our polity.
Yes PK, we deserve more as Christians, but does the leadership of SGM believe that we are entitled to it?
If we want a different Polity, wouldn’t they simply say we are at the wrong church?
Hi PFR:
Excellent comments.
The link you posted to click on is a bad one, as even when I copy and paste the entire text into the address bar, it’s still bad. Next time you post, highlight a word or phrase like “document,” and use the link tool (button with the connected chain on it) to drop that link in there; that will probably work better.
PFR, my whole point is exactly summed up in the questions you have addressed:
“How are we to call them to something that they may feel does not apply to them?”
and
“Yes PK, we deserve more as Christians, but does the leadership of SGM believe that we are entitled to it?”
and
“If we want a different Polity, wouldn’t they simply say we are at the wrong church?”
These are questions that can only be answered by the leadership. Until then, the flock is left to wander in the pasture without any real, concrete or substantive knowledge of the origin of leadership within our organization. I would further add that any leader shouldn’t act surprised when a starving flock member leaves over this very issue, which is continually glossed over.
To give you my own opinion (which sadly, through their own inaction, wordy nonsense that means nothing and prevailing attitude, the leadership leaves us to guesswork) in regard to those questions:
(1) “How are we to call them to something that they may feel does not apply to them?” Pray first, before anything. If you ever engage in dialogue, a simple question like this in a conversation gets the ball rolling: “When I was researching our polity, I noticed our website directs us to Dave Harvey’s Polity. Harvey himself has acknowledged that the Polity booklet is an incomplete answer and simply introductory. Can you or anyone give me a complete answer where the Bible explicity lays out that this is how the church is to be structured, i.e. without any congregational involvement?”
PFR, simply asking the question will at times cause the person being asked to do their homework. This is not always a gurantee, but for the pastor who claims to be a student of humility will let questions motivate him to defend what he believes and why he believes it.
(2) “Yes PK, we deserve more as Christians, but does the leadership of SGM believe that we are entitled to it?” My short answer is No. My long answer is No. And this is the root of such heinous sin on our part, I am at aloss of words to describe its ugliness. To SGM Pastors: You are not on the cleaner end of the bathtub on this one, let alone any issue. Love and care for your flock, and remove the burdens of trickle-down ambition and lust for power you have put on them.
(3) “If we want a different Polity, wouldn’t they simply say we are at the wrong church?” That’s when you have to remind them that the onus is on them to defend the flag they plunked down in the spot of their local franchise of Christianity. You could also respond, “Last time I checked, we are a Christian church… one that claims to follow and worship Jesus Christ. If that’s the case, I’m in the right place, as Christ would never shut His doors to those seeking Him.” Also, PFR, I need to make it clear that my personal position is to stay where I am at and pray/fight/fast/contend/sweat/cry for reform. In no way do I expect this to be the case for every member of the Beloved in Christ who is currently in a difficult situation with SGM. Some feel called to leave. I feel called to stay, and endure all the “but you’re supporting darkness” comments. At this time I feel SGM is worth fighting for, to see the return of the King. This isn’t Lord of the Rings hokum; this is nothing short of revolution that calls for reform.
Let me be clear: In no way, NO WAY do I expect that of everyone.
~pk
PFR:
I also wanted to give my thoughts on this question:
“Is SGM EXEMPT from any meaningful definition or accountability?”
My short answer: NO. My long answer: Our (SGM’s) accountability to civil authorities, which may allow wide latitude in how we interpret scripture, is in no way tied to our accountability to the Bible. You can’t neglect your flock with a cloud of ambiguity and distraction just because Uncle Sam says you’re in the clear to do so, and if your sheep don’t like it they can get out.
~PK
PK,
You show much courage and love by staying in to fight for reform Thanks for understanding those of us who had to flee for our spiritual lives. It is so cool that you have such a grip on what it took many of us years of reprogramming by the Lord to figure out – that SGM church government is WRONG in so many ways.
I would like to attempt to answer the question of why some SGM folks leave this site when polity is spoken of. Could it be that they are trained not to think about such things? That their leaders have this responsibility under their belts? That members trust their leaders so blindly that they do not think to question the way leadership functions?
When I was a pharisee-type believer involved with SGM, that’s how I lived. Now, in freedom, I revel in the ability to think for myself, to listen to God for myself. I want to UNDERSTAND how I allowed myself to be enslaved to a system that stole my freedom in Christ. I need to understand why this sort of church government was allowed to develop RIGHT BENEATH MY VERY NOSE…er, I mean, beak. So I look forward to this discussion. I want you and others to help me UNDERSTAND how it happened, why it happened, how it was that men could actually come to believe they deserved to have such power over the people they were suppose to love. I JUST DON’T GET IT, even after all this time.
Canary:
Thank you for the gracious words and encouragement.
Great comments.
You know, Paul wasn’t afraid of the Bereans. Luke even commended them.
Time to man up.
~pk
PK,
Could you explain briefly what a Berean is? I’ve heard this before. Are they mentioned in the NT? Thanks.
Hi Canary:
Here ya go: Bereans.
For the context, you may want to read Acts 17 wholly.
~pk
PK, just some thoughts of mine, as to why the polity of SGM initially attracted me, if I can explain it well..
I was raised Southern Baptist, which I had assumed was a congregational (sort of?) organizational structure. Yet still this One-man rule, or in some cases, the deacons rule. But either way, the congregation is just the congregation, and I didn’t get the impression they had much of a voice or power if they didnt’ like things, even as a Baptist. The biggest difference between this and SGM is they felt FREE to disagree, and if they didn’t like something, they said so, and if it didn’t change, they left the church… another disgruntled Baptist, and went down the road to the other Baptist church. It happened all the time, still does.
So I start reading Scripture, start seeing this “leader among leaders” thing based on gifts of these men Jesus called. Each with different roles. Equal, but very distinct roles, like men and women. So when I start looking into my former SGM church who, at the time, was not part of SGM but in the adoption process, what impressed ME was it didn’t seem the pastor ran the show. He seemed so humble and not controlling at all. He referred a lot to the elders, and this made me feel like there was accountability. Then one day, I asked myself: just who ARE the elders? I don’t know them..and I don’t know who the deacons are! And the longer I stayed the more I saw it was a one man show after all. I felt like I was living in Brave New World and was asking those questions that always got one in trouble. I had stopped taking the SGM soma and was beginning to think clearly.
Then SGM comes on board, and it was clear right away that this one-man-show church would fit right in. And when the head leader submits to the apostle, everyone follows suit. The system was already in place. Nobody questioned it.
It just became more obvious to me of this control after SGM adopted the church. Initially, I think all the love-bombing and personal attention tempered the already-existing authoritarian control I was in the midst of – so I didn’t question it. In fact, I am confident of that. Now that I think about it, SGM polity is only palitable when you slather lots of community, relationship and family on it. A spoonfull of sugar helps the medicine go down.
People don’t notice polity or make the connection to being the source of their problems because they are too busy feeling like they are part of the Body (purpose) and getting their strokes (love)…and when they start getting slapped instead of stroked, that is when their eyes begin to fly open and they say “Hey, this isn’t right – don’t I have a say in this? How did this happen? This doesn’t feel good anymore.”
Thanks, PK.
Juli:
Outstanding observations… like anyone’s testimony, it’s regrettable you had to go through situations like that to see the light. But God in His providence educates us in ways not always agreeable to us. That’s the long way of saying your wisdom is much appreciated.
I can’t improve on your thoughts, so I’ll leave it at that!
Thanks again,
~pk
Thanks for this post, PK. I have wondered many a time why I couldn’t grasp SGM polity for myself. I believe “nebulous” is how I described it. Surely, surely they are discussing and teaching it in more depth somewhere? Perhaps at the pastors’ college? Maybe among the leadership team? They must have some sort of consensus on it from the top down. And they must feel very confident they have the mind of the Lord. According to the Chesapeake accounts, even though there was sin confessed by the leaders, polity was not on the sin radar. In fact, Gene, using the Harvey pamphlet as his resource, made sure that even in the midst of the repenting, SGM polity was still strongly defended as Biblically sound. At least that is my recollection of the accounts given by the Chesapeake folks. Anyone can feel free to correct me if I’m mistaken.
So, how about it boys? Put your SGM polity cards on the table and let us see for ourselves if they are Scripturally sound.
Thanks PK and I love the new name.
Good for you on this post. I always wonder why there is such silence on polity. Is this form of government good and right and biblical? Then prove it, men of SGM. Or is church just about wearing certain clothes and not sitting with the opposite sex and reading J. Harris?
And why doesn’t SGM admit that they are the only ones in the mainstream evang/reformed world doing the same thing?
Thanks, my brother!
I don’t post here often, however I do read many of the comments and have had long conversation with Jim in the past. My quick comment on polity is this – SGM plurality is not plurality. First among equals is a joke that was taken out of context from Alexander Strauch’s work on eldership. The leaders are so brained washed to please the leaders above them, that they cannot and do not think for themselves. If a leader does think for themselves they will be guilty of pride and will soon not be a leader.
Gracie – you got me thinking – is the polity itself sin, or does it just promote it? The polity seems to stem from (at best) confusion and misinterpretation..or at worst, it stems from unbelief on the part of leaders who implement it – unbelief about the character and work of the Holy Spirit (to lead into all truth for one thing)…if the latter case is true, it clearly is sin since the polity would be implemented out of unbelief, and not simply ignorance.
My guess is thought that these guys are just ignorant and foolish (because they aren’t really capable of streaming their ideas together effectively enough once you take the time to study the Word for yourself and “test” the teachings and practices – they found something that works for their controlling and fearful personalities and are sticking with it. The fact they cannot Biblically defend or explain their polity is, well, quite revealing. For all the “scholarly” conversation going on in SGM World..there is not very much logic and intelligence happening. Most of the arguments, rationalizations, and justifications they make are simply illogical, counter-intuitive, and cut-and-paste. All it takes to see through the smoke and fog they create is to seek the truth as revealed in the Person of Jesus Christ.
I’m wondering, because I always think along the lines of how ideas and practices connect, what do you guys think the particular “connection” or magic formula is for SGM? RT has said before SGM is not really reformed, and I agree. I think we have established why. Even on the puritan board all the “real” reformed folks think it is hysterical for a charismatic, apostle-led, believer-baptizing denomination such as SGM to imply they are reformed simply because they are calvinist. But yet SGM does. And everyone IN SGM thinks they are reformed. But they aren’t. They may be calvinists, but often not reformed.
Yet from what I understand, the shepherding movement in the past was primarily connected to non-reformed and non-calvinistic groups. Were these groups ALL charismatic as well? Why do you think SGM switched over to calvinism? Because the polity is certainly Catholic in nature, (and no surprise given CJ and Larry’s backgrounds as charismatic Catholics) but I am puzzled as to why the charismatic dab here and the calvinistic dab there. It doesn’t make sense – yet. What are you guys thinking? What is it about the mix of calvinism, the polity, and the charismatic teachings that “work” for this perfect storm? Because my personal underlying thought is that it is ALL about control, every bit. And the “choice” of polity is the clearest expression of this. Something has been driving the movement from the beginning, and the only thing that hasn’t changed is the desire to have control over the people..everything else has it seems, from what I have heard. PDI was much more charismatic, and of course not Calvinistic..what was the polity like back then? Anyone know? Has it changed too?
Cheif One – welcome to the Refuge! Thanks for your comments – I looked up that guy, interesting..
It seems the distinction is that of WHO appoints the elders, not whether elders are Biblical. Clearly, elders in the church are Biblical. But if an outside apostle appoints them, then control is gone, that is the method of SGM. The Body itself DOES NOT APPOINT these men who later will be pastors and teachers, the apostles do, and often apostles that don’t even attend the same church so they are really far-removed – and I think that is unbiblical.
Clearly Paul said that they (the Body) were to evaluate these men, not leaders already in leadership..this is where I think things get wonky in SGM polity. Elders GOOD, apostles appointing them and trying to be modern-day Peter and Pauls, BAD. And the really sad thing is, when teaching on spiritual gifts, they only focus on the church-planting gifts of the apostles, not this magical ability to pick elders..so the church is confused about what SGM even teaches on apostleship. They just know the apostle calls the shots.
In my former SGM church here in Texas, the new interim pastor (currently attending Pastor’s College and not from the church here, but the apostle’s church) was chosen not by the congregation, or the elders even, or the SR. Pastor even, but by the APOSTLE who is this guy’s current pastor..
that’s just wrong and unbiblical.
Actually, the phrase “first among equals” has roots going way beyond Strauch’s book (whom Harvey quotes in polity).
It comes from the Latin phrase Primus inter pares. Read all about it from the above link. It’s a phrase used to make dicatorships more palatable. DB has mentioned this before as well.
These guys who are talking about polity in the Bride of Christ should know better than to throw Imperial phrases around like this, but maybe they don’t. That speaks to me of satiating a lust for power, no matter how much it has to be packaged and glossed.
Strauch acknowledges the Romans used this term in his book, but fails to mention the intention of the rulers who abused it. And I completely disagree with how Strauch tries to retrofit 1 Timothy 5:17 into it! All of this aside, I agree with Chief One Pac that Strauch’s explanation of first among equals is used way out of context by (Harvey and) SGM.
~pk
Hello,
Protestant Knight, I am newer here and don’t know you. Just wondering why you are still in a SGM church – or maybe I misunderstood and you have left. Anyway, would you mind sharing a little bit about your background? Thanks. BTW: I have changed my name from Just-say-no to Kool Aid because I am moving forward and am now walking in freedom and the wonderful grace of our Lord Jesus Christ.
WiF:
Good to see you again!
To find out a little about me, go to the “About P.K.” link at the top of the screen here.
One of the reasons I am still here is that I believe there are precious brothers and sisters worth fighting for; fellow members of the flock who I cannot leave behind. From my view, in my church (not necessarily in SGM as a whole) there is more good than bad. I know this angers some as they feel I am supporting the corrupt hierarchy of polity and practices in place at SGM HQ by staying. It’s for that reason why I am fighting for reform.
As I have shared before, I don’t have this expectation level of everyone and their families, particularly those who have experienced horrible circumstances or neglect at the hands of SGM.
There may come a day when God calls me and my family out; this may come in a very clear message or it may be something subtle like getting the boot. Until then, my flag is here. God will close doors and open others as He sees fit.
As I want to protect my family, there are details of my background that I simply won’t share here yet.
Most of my life has been in PDI/SGM. Many have commented that I am afraid to “leave a lifelong support system,” hence why I am still here. Nothing could be further from the truth. The faces of my brothers and sisters in Christ are what keep me here. I know my current pastor. The supremacy of Christ pervades his preaching and teaching, and this has kept us in a unique bubble. He has even openly addressed the sin of SGM exclusivity and introversion that prevents a person from openly sharing the Gospel to everbody; he really believes Christ’s command in Matthew 28. Much of what I have learned has come from this pastor.
That’s as detailed as I want to get at this point.
~pk
Thank you PK. I am one who truly believes that the whole foundation of SGM must be torn down and that a new foundation must be built. This will take a miracle from God for SGM to truly change and be a part of the body which glorifies God. I am aware that there are men in leadership who truly love Jesus and preach the Word. Sounds like your pastor is one. However, I still maintain that all pastors within SGM have submitted to CJ and the “apostles” or they would not be pastors. To disagree with CJ, et al would mean that one would no longer be a pastor. This next statement will sound rather harsh but it is like they all have a virus which keeps them blinded and submitted to a man and a movement rather than to Jesus Christ.
After leaving my SGM church and attending another church which operates in the freedom of Jesus Christ, I now believe that SGM churches are not the real thing. The real thing in Christianity is not exclusive and it is not in a bubble and it is all about Jesus and reaching the world for Him. Charles Simpson spoke at my SGM church years ago and he said “you are plowing in the barn. Open the barn doors and plow in the fields.” The church I am now attending is doing just that but my former SGM church never has opened the barn doors. Oh, they would say they have by reaching out to a nearby neighborhood and going into malls but you must look deeper than that at heart attitudes and at ministries within the church. Are these ministries vibrant and full of the Spirit of God? Are they reaching the lost for Jesus Christ? Are they caring for the poor, broken and wounded? Is the focus on Jesus Christ or on self? Are the people embracing those who are different or do they keep them at arms length because they are afraid of other’s sin contaminating them and their children. Sadly the barn door is still closed and there is much plowing within!
Walking in Freedom,
Good post. That is what I saw in SGM during my membership days. Fortunately, it seems that there are anomolies in SGM churches that don’t follow the same pattern we have seen of control. Now and then, we hear from someone who is doing well in their SGM church, and NOT drinking the kool aid.
I like PK’s heart. He is strong enough in the Lord to stay because of love for his brethren in his church family. He has insight. Many of us had to flee the church to find that insight. We couldn’t see it while we were there. I could only obey the Lord by leaving when He said. All the understanding of our situation became more clear as the months and years went by.
PK is in a unique postion to have clear insight while also being able to stay and work for reform. If I had been as full of faith, I might have remained for the same reason PK does – his love for the brethren there. But I didn’t learn faith til after I left, so I blog here as another voice in the desert, out of that same love for the people. We are all in this together.
In the SGM Statement of faith, in the paragraph regarding the Church we hear;
All members of the Church universal are to be a vital and committed part of a local church. In this context they are called to walk out the New Covenant as the people of God, and demonstrate the reality of the kingdom of God.
However when we look at the SGM Articles of incorporation we see this;
Article 5 This Corporation shall have no members
So SGM has NO MEMBERS.
CLC, has an extensive membership class /program. Yet the relationship is one sided.
As a member you ere expected to pour out everything to the church, yet the church
membership is comprised only of the Governing Pastors. For the rest, membership conveys no standing, responsibility, or authority for governess. See article 10
So the road ends before it begins.
SGM / CLC is a Corporation based on biblical principals as defined by it’s Apostles.
SGM / CLC is not a church as defined by the word of God. Am I wrong?
So I can see how the “members” of SGM Churches have no more say in how the church is run than I have with my insurance company.
None of it makes sense to me until I came to terms with this simple fact…SGM is not a church in the biblical, or traditional sense. (If I chose to ride a cow into the sunset calling it my horse Trigger, that does not make it a horse. It may provide some of what I require from a horse, and walk on all fours, ….still a cow).
If we do not have a standing, voice, or vote, then how are we to bring any meaningful change or accountability? SGM / CLC / SGM churches do not belong to its members.
PK – Is the Polity simply reflected in the way they have incorporated, or is the Polity a justification for the way they have incorporated?
Canary,
I guess I look at it a little differently. Sure God may very well leave some in SGM for a time but unless God is specifically telling you to stay for a specific purpose, I think it takes more faith to leave. The bubble is a safe (not really but it is perceived as safe to those within), very much controlled environment. There is no need to trust God or to walk in faith if you are controlling your spouse, your children, your life and checking off the boxes, making sure you are doing the “right” things. Trusting God is allowing yourself, spouse, children to develop into the man or woman that God created and purposed them to be not controlling everything to be the way you want it to be or others are telling you that it should be. Trusting God is not micromanaging every little detail and making sure you look like every other SGM family by saying the exact things, doing the “right” things. Trusting God is not fencing your children in making sure that they are only with other SGM families that look and think the same for fear that they might be contaminated by others sin. How many people in SGM churches have been hurt because they did look different and they didn’t fit into the mold? Where is Jesus Chrsit in all of this? He has been left by the way side and forgotten because He loved those who looked and acted differently and had great compassion on them. Shame on those in SG churches who are acting this way and have acted this way for years.
I was guilty, guilty, guilty of thinking that my family had to look like a SGM family to be a godly family. God set me free of this legalism and false doctrine and I am so thankful. Lately, I have been thinking about what is true godliness and holiness. Within SGM churches for many, godliness and holiness are defined by man, not by God. Examples are courtship, homeschooling, women not working outside the home, having a date night every week, men leading all devotions within the family, praying with a formula, believing that things are better for you than you deserve, etc. If you don’t do things the SG way, then you are not godly and certainly not holy. This whole pattern of thought is very prideful, arrogant and man centered. We are to be led by the Holy Spirit and God’s Word and godliness is demonstrated through our heart – desiring to please God through our actions and attitudes, our conduct and behavior not to please man or to receive man’s good pleasure but God’s. The Word tells us what true godliness is. I choose to follow Jesus Christ and the Word of God and His standard for godliness. Sadly, too many in SGM are following blogs by CJ and family to determine their standards and not the standards of God’s Word. Father, I pray in Jesus Name that I will never be deceived or walk in legalism and man centered ways again.
Re:bereans – I brought that text up in our sorta exit interview at CLC, sayign how the members were not encouraged to go back to scripture on what was taught, and the lack of support for staements with scripture instead of quotes made it hard if not impossible to do even if you tried. This pastor responded that he didn’t think the passage meant we were supposed to examine the sermon against scripture. That sealed the nail in the coffin in terms of us leaving.
HowDee, Kind Folk.
Don’t mind me. I’m juz gonna sit over here by de water cooler.
Maybe make some paper airplanes outa da copier paper… If’in I get boored.
Talk among yourselves…
Sopwith
PFR:
Please understand, I don’t disagree with your conclusions with one exception: that SGM’s corporate standing dictates how the flock should behave, rendering them powerless.
SGM’s corporation is simply a reflection on their view of polity.
Dave Harvey in Polity backhands the use of anecdotes (war stories, etc.) as warnings against SGM’s view of “modern day apostles,” then goes on to anecdotally defend SGM’s position by alleging “little to nothing” gets done in any form of true plurality of eldership or even the slightest fraction of congregational voice! Hypocrisy like that has one end result: the decimation of it’s clay feet.
My whole point is that SGM’s corporation -and how it’s bosom buddies with our polity- is neither a mystery or a surprise to me.
So how does reform come about in all of this?
(1) The inundation of questions as to why things are the way are, and a demand for a solid defense of it from Scripture. This needs to happen repeatedly whether we’re shown the door or not.
(2) The inundation of this scripture being posted on the doors of SGM again and again:
1 Peter 5:1-4 (English Standard Version): So I exhort the elders among you, as a fellow elder and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, as well as a partaker in the glory that is going to be revealed: shepherd the flock of God that is among you, exercising oversight, not under compulsion, but willingly, as God would have you; not for shameful gain, but eagerly; not domineering over those in your charge, but being examples to the flock. And when the chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the unfading crown of glory.
Those verses need to be the italics, exclamation points, bold lettering and breath of every call for reform directed at SGM, whether those entities it’s directed to listen or not. Somebody will crack, and hence the ice will crack; it’s already cracking, in my opinion.
I don’t know what form that reform will take on with SGM, and I’m not losing sleep over not knowing its details.
When the flock cries out for a return of the Shepherd of their souls, He will not turn away.
It has been told to me before that God’s not under obligation to change SGM, and that’s true. But let’s remember this soberly: God is also under no obligation to not change it.
Pray, beloved!
~pk
PK,
HowDee!
Hey, Ya’all
Presbyterian, at sgmrefuge, March 5th, 2009 at 1:49 pm said:
“That sealed the nail in the coffin in terms of us leaving.”
I brought a hammer, “California frammer, 23 OZ “. HeHe
We build’in, bust’in or a little of both?
Need any help?
Sopwith
P-
This pastor responded that he didn’t think the passage meant we were supposed to examine the sermon against scripture.
Wow!!
Perhaps a different pastor, but a similar thing with my experience.
I was simply “Reminded” of the “covering” the Pastors provided me with. Also that if my heart motive was to please God, and I was, with humility, trusting my leaders, I could be assured
that I would remain in the Lord’s favor. (As if blind obedience to them negates scripture or personal standing and responsibility)
So I asked, “Which one of you will be before the throne of God with me when I give my final account?”
The look on his face……priceless!
So SGM has NO MEMBERS.
So, when I was serving a meal to new members, it was at the New Members Who Aren’t Really Members Dinner? Huh…funny. Not.
It is a shame that full grown adults living in a free society give away their rights to think and process thought to other full grown adults WHO SHOULD KNOW BETTER! To be a part of an organization called a church with no say in its polity is not only unChristian but UNAMERICAN.
So SGM has NO MEMBERS.
So, when I was serving a meal with other ladies to new members, it was really a New Members Who Really Aren’t Members dinner…huh. Rolling my eyes, here.
It is just not right that full grown adults give up their right to think and process thought or scriptures to other full grown adults WHO SHOULD KNOW BETTER. We live in a free society. This sort of behavior is not only NOT in the bible, but it is un-American. It is lazy, requiring little faith on the member’s side. Just let the leaders think, lead, and make decisions. Following is so much easier.
I can hardly believe I gave up my freedom to such an institution, freedom that was hard fought for by others in the past. Freedom that cost the Lord His life in a very grisly manner. What was I thinking? Oh, wait. I WASN’T.
PK,
HowDee!
Hey, that reminds me of a couple of scriptures:
“For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
And:
“Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.”
Don’t mind me. I’m juz gonna sit over here by de water cooler.
Maybe make some paper airplanes outa da copier paper…
I’ll juz be sitt’in right chere…
Sopwith
Sopwith,
Any chance we should call you JmyC or AAW?
Combining what PK posted;
Dave Harvey in Polity backhands the use of anecdotes (war stories, etc.) as warnings against SGM’s view of “modern day apostles,” then goes on to anecdotally defend SGM’s position by alleging “little to nothing” gets done in any form of true plurality of eldership or even the slightest fraction of congregational voice! Hypocrisy like that has one end result: the decimation of it’s clay feet.
And Canary’s comment;
This sort of behavior is not only NOT in the bible, but it is un-American. It is lazy, requiring little faith on the member’s side. Just let the leaders think, lead, and make decisions. Following is so much easier.
So I wonder how Mr. Harvey feels about the Plurality of leaders in Democracy!?!
Thank Goodness for the Vision of Joseph Stalin, Fidel Castro, and all the others that became wise to the ineffectiveness of Accountability, and Plurality. Give People a voice and a vote, and where do you end up……….
Sop, nice to see you here! You always make me smile!
Someone mentioned it taking more faith to leave SGM. I think because we each have our own areas of unbelief, as well as our unique giftings and abilities, that it certainly gives us the impression the path we are led and the path we choose stretches us to the point where we feel it has taken ALL our faith to do so. And yes, for me, leaving took more faith than staying would have.
I fully believe it requires great faith to say in SGM as well, but clearly that is an individual decision. I would be guilty of the same thing that SGM is if I told everyone they had to leave SGM or they would “fall away” – I am tempted to tell people at times to RUN FOR THEIR LIVES – But, if I truly believe in the sovereignty of God, His Spirit and drawing us to Himself, and that this same Spirit will lead and guide us into all truth (not just some, but ALL truth) then those who decide to remain (as a result of their faith) will be fine.
Those remaining in SGM out of fear and out of unbelief are another story. I would certainly tell them to run. Whatever does not come from faith is sin – so wherever unbelief rears its head, I would always encourage someone to avoid perpetuating it. But obviously PK’s faith is what is prompting his decision to stay, I respect him for it, and am glad God has given him that faith and he responded with a willingess to be available to God to bring about reform and change..
A true Knight indeed.
WIF,
HowDee!
Ya’all can call me any’thin…
Juz, don’t call me late fa suppa! HaHa!
That reminds me of a couple of scriptures:
“There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.”
and:
“Now thanks be unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place.”
Chow!
Sopwith
WIF,
HowDee!
Ya’all can call me any’thin…
Juz, don’t call me late fa suppa!
HaHa!
That reminds me of a couple of scriptures:
“There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.”
and:
“Now thanks be unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place.”
Chow!
Sopwith
Juli,
HowDee!
Thank-you!
Your too sweet…
Might wanta keep yous distance, though…
Some of my deleterious detractors think I need a bath. He He
Sopwith
“This pastor responded that he didn’t think the passage meant we were supposed to examine the sermon against scripture.”
Wha???? Huh???????? Bu..??? Wait a mi…. WHAT?!?!?!
Juli,
as I was say’in…
Ya know what day say…
…careful about feed’in them there strays…. >snicker<
Sopwith
Hey y’all.
I am weary of the term ‘covering.’
Dads are their daughters’ ‘covering.’
Pastors are their congregants ‘covering.’
Husbands are their wives.
Chapter and verse me on this, please?
Not to beat the Catholic connexion to death or anything, but doesn’t this harken back to the priests’ role to stand in the stead of God and all that rot?
I simply do not think we can examine SGM without taking into account the fact that it was built from the ground up by an uneducated former Catholic, who still has not attended seminary or any formal theological training.
This also explains why he smorgasbords differing theologies and poliities together to make his soup of the day. Reformed, evangelical, charismatic–each of us ARE something. It is not OK to take little parts of each of us and them claim a family tie with us.
SGM is simply a cobbled together straw horse, which is filled with wonderful believers, of all traditions, who are excluded from the rest of the Body, and brainwashed into believing that they alone ‘do church right.’
PK–you were wise to add ‘reform’ to the banner. From your mouth to God’s ear.
Reformed Teacher,
We have dialogued before about the smorgasbord of theology found in SGM, and I totally agree with your assessment (3/5, 4:56 pm).
As far as “covering” goes, there are influential leaders within the homeschooling movement who also promote this strange concept. For example, a daughter must remain under her father’s “covering” until she is married. That’s why she is highly discouraged from going to a DANGEROUS place like college! In that environment, a young lady wouldn’t be under her father’s covering.
By the way, my first-born daughter is a sophomore at a public university, and she is making very wise choices without being “under her father’s covering”. I am reminded of the Bible verse “train up a child in the way he should go . . .” I have also prayed Proverbs 3:5-6 over my daughter many times, and my prayers are definitely being answered!
Recently, I read a book by the Botkin sisters entitled So Much More which describes this bizarre theology of “covering”. These sisters, who were teenagers when they wrote the book, share their incredible wisdom with the rest of us. Oh joy!!! By the way, the book’s publisher is Vision Forum (Doug Phillips). The Botkin sisters gleefully promote the ”quiver-full” approach to family planning near the end of their book.
What’s really sad to me is that people are falling for these STRANGE concepts that are being labeled as “Biblical” by their spiritual leaders. Hogwash!!! Once again, it’s all about C-O-N-T-R-O-L . . .
This is my first post here.
The question for me and my family is do you leave a SGM church that “does so many things right”: that preaches the Gospel accurately (others have disagreed with this but that is the case in my church), has phenomenal literature (true, some may be critical here but most would not), provides unity from top to bottom (somebody has to be in charge although certainly this can be abused) which one does not see in many churches? Right now I wonder about what PK said:
PK-From my view, in my church (not necessarily in SGM as a whole) there is more good than bad.
Some of the negatives have been pointed out by others:
No Doubt-The isolationist nature of the churches in the movement.
Alarmed-We have seen that our local church has no interest in partnering with any ministry for any reason, but I had no idea it was an organizational postition in regards to para-church ministries.
Alarmed-I started researching SGM and reading posts because I was trying to figure out why we have never seen an actual Bible Study offered in our church. For the past 3 years our church has been in a constant state of change, so I attributed the lack of studies to this upheaval. I am beginning to believe that our lack of Bible Studies may be due to the fact that SGM believes that only the “elders” can dispense this knowledge to the flock. Am I correct?
Musicman-I think you hit the nail on the head-SG’s vision of equipping the saints (who are not SG leadership material) is to make sure they obey and are a joy to their pastors. ……. I think they’ve narrowed the definition of ministry and abandoned the idea of the preisthood of believers when it comes to practice and practical discipleship.
Exintern-their polity dictates that only “apostles” and pastors can expand the kingdom, and it disdains para-church organizations. Folks sitting in SGM pews, this is why Brent travels overseas and you don’t.
Gracie-Does SGM consider works of service to be only those within the control and oversight of SGM pastors? Do they have ANY confidence that the Holy Spirit is at work in each believer?
Chief One Pac-The leaders are so brained washed to please the leaders above them, that they cannot and do not think for themselves. If a leader does think for themselves they will be guilty of pride and will soon not be a leader.
-We also cannot ignore the lure of SGM’s reputation as a “homeschooling church.” No matter how much gum-flapping they do to the contrary, the fact remains that the majority of SGMers do indeed homeschool….
-But…the reality is that this instant intimacy isn’t actually about the individuals themselves. Rather, it is fostered by the individuals’ mutual interest in SGM. And unfortunately, it’s not real. Remove the common denominator of SGM, and you’re left with…not much.
PK-Tear down your cults of personality. Stop worshipping each other.
It is as if this group is a different “culture.” So many good things but……
Reformed Teacher
If don’t already know this, a lot of the teaching on “covering” orignitated with Bill Gothard and the seminars that he taught that were quite popular in the 70′s. At least one book I know of that critiques Gothard (It’s a Matter of Principle) show that much of what Gothard teaches on “authority” and covering has no biblical basis.
There were cases in the book that showed where Gothard didn’t even practice what he taught about submission to authority.
Many of the founders of SGM, including Mahaney, attended these seminars that Gothard put on.
I agree with Steve. From everything I have been researching, Bill Gothard seems to be where these extreme beliefs are originating. What’s incredible to me is that Gothard never married, yet he portends to have so much godly wisdom about how parents should raise their children. He has singlehandedly brought TREMENDOUS DAMAGE to the body of Christ. Gothardites should do their own research to learn the truth about what this destructive man has left in his wake.
What’s so frightening to me is that Gothard’s irresponsible teaching is being perpetuated by his followers, including Doug Phillips (a homeschooling guru).
I am very concerned for the children growing up in these authoritative churches. The Worldwide Church of God lorded it over their flock during its heyday. I remember meeting a Christian woman who grew up in that denomination, and she shared with me horror stories about what it was like to be raised with that kind of religious control. It was horrible! Fortunately, after many years she was finally able to work through all of her emotional problems and forgive her parents for raising her in that kind of extreme authoritarian environment.
I fear that many children are being emotionally scarred by the ”shepherding” that goes on in SGM churches, and I’m praying that many eyes will be opened. I worry that in decades to come SGM will be openly criticized just like Gothardism is today.
Hi The Question! Welcome.
Are you and your family considering leaving your SGM church? Are the quotes you listed things that you have seen and are concerned about?
Our experiences with SGM on this blog vary from mild problems to spiritual disasters. It seems that some of the SGM churches are more abusive than others. Our concern, and one reason that we make broader statements about the organization as a whole and not just our local churches, is because of the top-down polity structure. So many of our stories are very similar with pastors from different parts of the nation, during different decades, saying sometimes nearly identical things in heated meetings. How is this possible? We believe it comes from advice or mandates from the leadership/apostolic team.
So, if you see good things in your church, and don’t see the negatives we have discussed, hooray! We would say, that’s fantastic! But we would also caution you to keep your eyes and heart open. If indeed certain directives and mandates that we find overstepping or abusive are proclaimed from the top, they might show up there at some point.
If you see the good things but also the negatives, then you must hear from God. Some here have run for their and their children’s spiritual lives; others, like PK, stay and make the good fight for those they love.
i know Gothard came up with it, and many people, notably VF, still promotes it. But I want someone from the world’s best church to defend it FROM THE BOOK.
I am one of those obnoxious Bible literalists–and am not that interested in men’s opinions if there are not little footnotes constantly in their writing with scripture references, so I can check it out. I know that vast majority of you guys are the same.
Interesting the way the world’s smartest guy (solomon) ended his proverbial book Prov. 31. I especially love verse 25–the exact opposite of my beloved female friends in SGM, who are often worried and anxious that they don’t stack up, that their husbands are ‘not the leaders they should be,’ that their children are ‘not focusing on the cross.’ So sad!
A wife of noble character who can find? She is worth far more than rubies.
11 Her husband has full confidence in her and lacks nothing of value.
12 She brings him good, not harm, all the days of her life.
13 She selects wool and flax and works with eager hands.
14 She is like the merchant ships, bringing her food from afar.
15 She gets up while it is still dark; she provides food for her family and portions for her servant girls.
16 She considers a field and buys it; out of her earnings she plants a vineyard.
17 She sets about her work vigorously; her arms are strong for her tasks.
18 She sees that her trading is profitable, and her lamp does not go out at night.
19 In her hand she holds the distaff and grasps the spindle with her fingers.
20 She opens her arms to the poor and extends her hands to the needy.
21 When it snows, she has no fear for her household; for all of them are clothed in scarlet.
22 She makes coverings for her bed; she is clothed in fine linen and purple.
23 Her husband is respected at the city gate, where he takes his seat among the elders of the land.
24 She makes linen garments and sells them, and supplies the merchants with sashes.
25 She is clothed with strength and dignity; she can laugh at the days to come.
26 She speaks with wisdom, and faithful instruction is on her tongue.
27 She watches over the affairs of her household and does not eat the bread of idleness.
28 Her children arise and call her blessed; her husband also, and he praises her:
29 “Many women do noble things, but you surpass them all.”
30 Charm is deceptive, and beauty is fleeting; but a woman who fears the LORD is to be praised.
31 Give her the reward she has earned, and let her works bring her praise at the city gate.
Question:
Welcome to SGM Refuge and Reform.
Your question will not get answered or resolved until you define -with the Lord’s help- what the “line in the sand” is so to speak. Do you wait until running the risk of damage to you and your family? Do you stay and become a prayer warrior? Do you exit when you hear with your own ears the pastor mangling scripture? Does your pastor do what he does because he loves Christ or is it a love for the system? These are just examples, but you are going to have to find your breaking point.
No one can answer that question but you, and even then, there must be a reliance and trust on the Holy Spirit and God’s word to know what your breaking point is.
For myself, I know what the breaking point is; by “breaking point,” I mean the point where I break with SGM without looking back. Many would judge this as looking for offenses (setting a particular chip on your shoulder), but I totally and utterly disagree. One must have standards of safety for themselves and more importantly, their family. Scriptures can provide this; I am positive this range of what it takes to necessitate an exit is different for every family and/or individual. But everyone must have a “this far and no further” point guided by Scripture and prayer.
Not sure if my response made any sense, but I want to refrain from calling it “The Answer.”
Take care and once again, welcome.
In Christ,
~pk
At the Abbey we discussed the origins of “covering.” I remember first hearing about covering in 1972. It was based on the teachings of Watchman Nee found in his book “Spiritual Authority.” The youthful christian coffee house leader told all of us church-skeptical, former hippies to pray and ask God what church to attend. And then we were to submit to the authority and covering.
RT:
Excellent comment on Proverbs 31. I wish we at SGM would use the whole of scripture like this so we could review wonders like Prov. 31 rather than solely handing women Titus 2 -by itself and lacking a systematic study- again and again. I’ve probably opened a can of worms here, but I don’t want to derail the topic severely.
Not that I don’t like this discussion, but is anyone -other than Dave Harvey- going to defend SGM polity? I sound like Ben Stein. Anyone… anyone?
~pk
When we joined our local SG “church, we thought is was absolutely the best thing in all the world. A couple years later, we ran for our freedom, just knowing with all of our hearts that something was very wrong–very wrong. The arrogance and papal-type authority reeked with the works of the flesh so strongly that we knew our time with SGM had ended.
We didn’t see this until we got close enough to leadership and the everyday, unguarded language and view of the sheep that we finally either had to ignore it or face it. We faced it! Following the pain of disengagement and some time to de-tox, we are thankful to Abba for helping us to see that we were caught up in legalism and authoritarianism.
Good Morning Brother Cadfael:
Excellent testimonial on your first experience with “covering.”
Everyone:
I personally believe the “covering” business comes from the severest mangling of scriptures, particularly 1 Corinthians 11.
Oh blast.
I got off topic again.
Will anyone defend SGM’s polity? Anyone?
~pk
GDfS:
Your experience/testimony is invaluable:
I think that’s what it takes in many cases: an unvarnished look at the lives of the leadership. Yes, there is much forgiveness to those who sin (even leaders), and we all will sin, and more than once (understatement of the millennium); but when a pastor reveals their true colors and it is discovered they do not, in fact, love their flock with the love of Christ, then there may as well be a lovely, inviting but highly poisonous stream running by that church.
~pk
I have been researching spiritual covering, and Dr. Steven Lambert has an excellent website at the following link:
http://www.slm.org/trtdigst/articles/covering.html
What follows is an excerpt from his website. Please check out the link to the history of the shepherding movement in Dr. Lambert’s book. Make no mistake — SGM is a repackaging of the Shepherding Movement that became so abusive back in the 1970s.
The second primary conceptual error on which the heretical hyper-authoritarian Discipleship/Shepherding doctrines are established, is the matter of “spiritual covering.” Indeed, so-called “spiritual covering” is the very centerpiece of these wholly unBiblical teachings and the authoritarian abuse they engender, which is absolutely endemic in Pentecostal and Neo-Pentecostal sects.
Let me begin by stating plainly and directly: “spiritual covering” as theorized by the Discipleship theosophy is an absolute MYTH. No semblance of the Shepherding teaching version of “spiritual covering” exists anywhere within the pages of Scripture. “Spiritual covering,” in the vein it is presented by proponents and propagators of these hyper-authoritarian teachings, is an outright deception! It is a complete fabrication concocted by the originators of these fallacious doctrines as a supposed pretext for facilitation of entirely self-aggrandizing objectives of subjugation, domination, and control.
[For a detailed history of the Shepherding Movement, READ THIS CHAPTER.]
Indeed, what the Discipleship proponents refer to as “spiritual covering” is really “spiritual control.”
I remember going to a Gothard seminar in the early eighties. Our PDI church promoted it. A lot of us car-pooled to get there.
A good book to read is “Who Is Your Covering” by Frank Viola. What an eye-opener he gives about the false teaching on church authority. Another great book of his is, “Rethinking the Wineskin”. I think they are easily ordered over at Amazon.com. Must reads for anyone with questions about church authority.
The Question,
I know that you did not address me, but if I might: 1 Cor. 5:6-7 is about the leaven that ferments. I believe that Paul understood that even a little bit of legalism, or leaven of the Pharisees, will grow and grow til it destroys faith and grace in a church. Perhaps there are good things in your church group, but you must beware of the leaven. If it keeps growing, it will strangle and destroy. That is why Paul urges that it be purged from the body, starting with a clean lump of dough. SGM polity is filled with such leaven.
So how much leaven are you willing to put up with? When does this leaven begin fermenting, and become harmful to your faith? Maybe that can be the “line” that PK speaks of.
I agree with RT that children are the most at risk. That is something else to be watchful of. Little children turn into teens who question anything that does not seem real to them. They can sense hypocrisy, even if they can’t always define it. It is like a radar within them, I think, to sniff out insincerity. They will see the leaven eventually. If they are not deceived by it as easily as the adults, they will challenge and eventually reject faith all together. That is the danger. We have to be sure our kids are protected, that their trust in God is nurtured without all the legalism that falsifies our faith. As Wanda so eloquently states, “I am very concerned for the children growing up in these authoritative churches. ”
Welcome to Refuge and Reform!
Defend SGM’s polity?
Protestant Knight on March 6th, 2009 at 10:34 am, you said:
“Will anyone defend SGM’s polity? Anyone?”
PK, is dat is gonna be a real “short” line…
Won’t even have’ta take a number, folks! >snicker<
…Not me!
I thought we was “nailing coffins”? He He.
Remember PK, I’zs got dis big ole hammer here… Ha Ha!
Sopwith
Defend SGM’s polity? (Part 2)
HowDee, Ya’all,
Protestant Knight on March 6th, 2009 at 10:34 am, again, you said:
“Will anyone defend SGM’s polity? Anyone?”
Pk, I’m afraid I’m running outa six penny nails, ya got any?
(Da got all’s kinda nails over dare at dat: sizes/nails web site…)
Man up…Weee’s can have a field day! >grin<
Sopwith
Poor PK. Why doesn’t anyone want to duke it out with you when it comes to defending SGM polity? I notice that Joel disappeared. Where are all the drive bys? Maybe if you get more specific, someone will attempt a bout with you. Ho-hum. Are you the only courageous SGM member left in America? Or is it that members aren’t taught to think as much as obey? Truly, your question requires thought and even some research. I know there must be some of the saints in SGM who are reading here.
Is it that they don’t have a defense? This could be worse than you think.
(Maybe they have all been ordered not to post on this site – dang, they might be obeying…)
G.D.,
Good morning! (at least in CO) Tell me, what sort of things did leadership say about the sheep? Inquiring tweeties want to know.
I’ll start with an example. A pastor’s wife who discipled me in my early twenties spoke of one of our friends who left the church. She said that this friend was having skin problems (as though leaving was causing a scurge) and that it must be hard because our friend had always been so vain. She said it with an almost satisfied air about her. There was certainly no compassion in her manner. I was shocked, and wondered how this pastor’s wife spoke of me to others when I was not around.
So, G.D., what sort of things did you hear spoken about the sheep behind their backs? Just the facts, of course. I think it would be of great interest to the sheep to know how some of their pastors think of them. Keep in mind, these sheep are full grown adults who have given over their freedom to these leaders. Let’s bring what was in the dark out into the light for all to see…(uh oh, I’m feeling ornery, again. Feel free to monitor me, PK, if I get out of line).
Defend SGM’s polity? (part 3)
HowDee, Ya’all,
Protestant Knight on March 6th, 2009 at 10:34 am, again (I’m repeat’n myself!) you said: “Will anyone defend SGM’s polity? Anyone?”
SGM’s polity? What really is SGM’s polity?
[SGM’s polity] Stimulus latent(1) subterfuge(2) distribution which is directly proportional to number of PC pastors in the general church member population.
Notes:
(1) Deception by artifice or stratagem in order to conceal, escape, or evade: a deceptive device or stratagem.
(2) Present and capable of becoming though not now visible, obvious, active, or symptomatic <a latent infection>
Glad I’m wearing my latex gloves! Haa Ha!
Where’s ma hammer…
Sopwith
Canary,
When I wrote “We didn’t see this until we got close enough to leadership and the everyday, unguarded language and view of the sheep that we finally either had to ignore it or face it.”
You asked what sort of things were said of the “sheep” behind their backs. It was NEVER direct language; rather, it was attitudes, and little “tells.” For me, I was not able to definitively say, “THERE IT IS; There’s THE GARBAGE!” For me it was more like, “Something smells, something stinks like garbage, sniff, sniff, what is that smell?”
Every time someone brought up an “observation” to leadership, they were asked something like, “do I detect a heart problem?” To those courageous enough to bring an issue up to leadership, they ALWAYS left with them feeling that they were the problem, and even given the book CJ wrote, titled “Humility.”
I have seen people shunned by leadership because they questioned. I have been shunned, ever so subtly, by leadership because I bulked at what they thought I should be doing with my “gifting,” according to them, not me. I heard a grown manly man tell me that he had signed up for four “serving opportunities” at the sign-up desk in the “church” foyer, only to be totally ignored because he was labeled as prideful and independent.
So leadership’s view of the sheep in my little SGworld was blatantly evident, but VERY difficult to build a case against. That is why it drives so many of us nuts. How many of us thought it was just us? How long did it take many of us to see it for what it is?
In my brief time “behind the curtain” with leadership, I came away with an increased view that leadership saw the “sheep” as a means to fund their agendas and program, kind of like business treats their consumer base. They treat them with respect to their faces, but all along see them as a means to their end, a “successful” SG church and a way to appear valuable to those over them.
I know that is not rue for all SG churches. Please, I am only writing from my experience. May God bless all real servant leaders. But as has been written many times here, SGM has some very serious fundamental problems at their very core, and until they are changed, NOTHING will change.
“…but we have the mind of Christ.”
HowDee, Ya’All,
Ya, (I confess…) I was over dare (SGM) somes times past…
Didn’t last… >snicker<
someth’in bout not wash’in up befo suppa and I forget ta wipe my feet on da “welcome mat”.
(and I told a “SGM pastor” he indeed needed to “check” his facts. Ops! Big Ut’ O…
Sos days rolled it up –dat “welcome mat” in short order…
I’m sure dat day miss me very, very much… HeHe
DaT reminds me of some’thin I reads:
And I, brethren, when I came to you, I came not with excellent speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God. For I determined not to know anything among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling. And my speech and my preaching were not with enticing words of man’s wisdom, but in the demonstration of the Spirit and of power: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God. Where as we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to naught:
But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. But God has revealed them to us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searches all things, yea, the deep things of God. For what man knows the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? Even so the things of God –knows, no man, but the Spirit of God.
Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teaches, but which the Holy Ghost teaches; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
But the natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness to him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he that is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. For who has known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him?
…but we have the mind of Christ.
YaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaHooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!
>whew!, I’m outa breath… (so… O.K., I got carried away…)
“da gates of hell shall not prevail, da gates of hell shall not prevail, da gates of hell shall not prevail, …”
“doot, doot , doodle, doooo…”
“da gates of hell shall not prevail…”
Ya’all “R” in ma prayers! ( …I got da calluses ta prove it!) >wink<
“R” yous all’s ready ta talk bout Jesus’ polity? YeeeHaaaaaaaaaaaa!
Chow!
Sopwith
The Question-
Welcome-you really must’ve been doing some reading, because I think I posted that comment months ago.
Was your question about your current status (as an SGM member) or were you posing the question to PK about his current status as a member of an SG church.
Just wondering….
Canary:
Don’t get me wrong… I’m not necessarily wanting to duke it out with anyone. I’m just finding the more questions I ask, or when I ask someone to defend it without quoting chapter and verse from Harvey’s playbook, the non-response and getting out of Dodge is massive.
Polity is one of the tap roots to many of our ills within SGM; folks, please understand that I am not seizing upon polity just in our churches… I’m talking about from Gaithersburg on down.
PK–in your church, are you able to discuss SGM polity without emotion? And, (I always ask this, but never get an answer), are your fellow SGMers aware of how the rest of us out here in the arctic tundra of reformed/evangelical churches view the church government structure?
I always get either “Well <sputter> this is the best way to do it.”
or “This is the way many churches do it.”
Uh huh. Why is it the best? What other REPUTABLE churches, besides the Church of Rome, use this model?
Thanks for the answer. So glad you are back, not that we don’t miss you, Jim!!!
In my 20′s I was in a church that had congregational polity. IMO it wasn’t noticably better than elder rule and in some ways it seemed worse to me. I’m not a theologian and I don’t know which one is more scripturally on target. I definitely don’t want to get into an argument about it.
Canary, we don’t know each other at all and I’d really appreciate it if you’d quit saying stuff about me.
Joel,
Did you ever wonder how that kitty cat ended up in the cage and the canary ended up on top of the cage?
What is really interesting is that in the discussion that nobody has really touched on individual faith and worship. Why do we assume faith must be collectively defined and experienced?
Someone said: “But…the reality is that this instant intimacy isn’t actually about the individuals themselves. Rather, it is fostered by the individuals’ mutual interest in SGM. And unfortunately, it’s not real. Remove the common denominator of SGM, and you’re left with…not much.”
the reason you are left with nothing or not much when you remove the “group” is because you didn’t have it to begin with. This is what I am talking about – when you have no individual interest, (dare I call it SELF interest? Gasp!) then you are left to find your interests met (and subsequently defined) by the group you are “identifying” with. Pick a group, any group, and be defined. Be validated. But dare not try to be validated in who God created you to be. That’s pride, rebellion, isolationism – that’s BAD BAD BAD!!
When someone joins SGM or any church or denomination, Mary Kay, Clubs, Amway, whatever it is for that matter, seeking to find your purpose, meaning, and identity within the context of the particular group, you are in essense placing your identity in the hands of others to create, shape, form, twist, exploit…and the end result is you are constantly battling WHO GOD MADE YOU to fit into the group – and you find the group actually doesn’t “fit” very well over time because of it’s limited scope. It is a dangerous cycle where you end up feeling like a failure, and totally confused to boot.
I suggest the purpose of fellowship, the “two are better than one”, the “don’t forsake the assembling of ouyrselves” is becuase collective worship, praise, teaching, all of it is most enjoyed (and only properly enjoyed) when each individual is COMPLETE going in.
By complete I mean in terms of identity – they know who they are in Christ. THey won’t be blown by every wind of doctrine, they won’t be looking to the church or others ot fill and meet needs or (in many cases) define those needs for them!
Yet we see individual faith expressed time and again in Scripture and God never said “Hey, that’s bad, you better get with some others to make sure you got it right.” I personally think the NT teachings on the Body came when they did because NOW we all have access PERSONALLY by faith in Christ, under the new covenant we have access to the throne of grace and Jesus is our High Priest and HE intercedes for us..not man. And then the HOLY SPIRIT leads and guides us into all truth.
When all this is believed, applied and lived out in lives INDIVIDUALLY then any experience in the Body becomes edifying, good, glorifying to God..if not, you have quarrels and division (James said owing to our what? Lusts…) Go figure. Everyone is seeking their OWN SELF INTERESTS in the context of a group that won’t allow it and calls it bad.
someone cut off my hand! ahh! (in my gravitar) Now I look like I’m making kissy-face! haha
never mind…there is it. *whew*
RT:
I think the question doesn’t get raised that often in our church because honestly -and I know some are gonna roll their eyes on this or say “whatever”- the pastor is more of a mouthpiece for the elders (some on staff, and some not) when it comes to major church decisions. The elders regularly take the temperature with congregation, and it just seems to work, for lack of a better word.
I’ve made my views on any subject very clear to whoever asks, and some steer clear of those questions with me, depending on the person and the subject at hand. When I have engaged in discussion and someone starts saying “a lot of churches do it this way,” I ask them to name one and detail the similarities; the conversation comes to an abrupt halt or there is a convenient interruption. Polity is the big one because (drum roll – wow I never say this – <sarcasm>) it affects a majority of church life. Our church has a long history, and many of the elderly -or older
– ones have a tremendous voice in the church life.
I think our church is doing well because we have a pastor who loves his church, plain and simple. I’ve never, ever heard him refer to himself as the Senior Pastor. he takes on many tasks that many others even in small churches avoid like the plague. But I don’t worship him, and he knows that. He’s a vessel that reflects the love of Christ again and again. Any time I’ve had criticism of him, he responds graciously, even when I was nitpicking and shouldn’t have raised an issue to start with and didn’t deserve a gracious answer!
Much of what I have prayed for (and I’m sure many others have prayed for within and without my church) has come to pass in my church; how merciful God is! I’m in faith more change is on the way, and my happiness doesn’t come from my church “wish list” being fulfilled… it comes from God.
God always answers prayer. Sometimes that answer is no. I pray that his Holy Spirit empowers me and guides my emotions during the times the answer is no. And I’ve discovered at times the answer is not necessarily no… it’s wait on me.
That’s about as detailed as I can get with my answer, with a short flight of fancy at the end there.
~pk
Beloved, I graciously ask whatever the issue is between Joel and Canary -or anybody for that matter- let’s let them work it out without any goading. Prayer would be a good alternative.
I’d appreciate it if we could disagree agreeably on some things -preaching to myself here first- and avoid the personal jib-jabbery. It’s one thing to get passionate about issues, theology, etc… It’s another to start poking at each other’s eyes.
Thanks in advance,
~pk
Juli,
One word to your 2:07 post: BRILLIANT!!!!!! If I tried to add to it, it would take away from it. So, I will quit while I am ahead.
PK-well said on your 2:19. One excellent example of why this is now your blog.
In order to enable some of the changes that we have discussed, I’ve deleted a ton of posts, along with all of their comments. Some I chose because I didn’t like what I said, others because they were what I call filler posts.
I’ve left plenty of stuff up in which I don’t like what I said, so it wasn’t a mass self censor, but I need to dump some stuff to do what we are discussing. Like all of the graphics on older posts.
My apologies to all.
PK, Sorry if I offended. I honestly don’t know what this thing is with Joel…???
Joel,
I pulled your name out of the hat of SGMers who post but won’t debate the issue of church government. I don’t know why you feel so offended by me. I’m kinda puzzled by that. Would you mind clearing that up for me?
G.D.
Thanks for answering my question. I’m so sorry you saw that sort of ugliness. I did, too. The condscension was so subtle, that it left me wondering, am I crazy? Maybe, because I am a wo-man, I saw or felt it more. Sometimes, it felt like I was being patted on the head and told to go play (I have never been treated that way by my husband). I know that sounds awful, but like you said, you couldn’t prove it happened. However, that you as a man allowed into the inner circle for a time saw some of this is a bit uplifting. It DID really happen.
It is good to hear that PK’s experience in his SGM church is different, or changing. It sounds like his Pastor really loves the membership! There are still many people out there treated as a means to an end. Those are the people I, at least, want to reach. I urge them to take back their freedom in Christ! We are all grown ups, for goodness sakes, not little children who need to be led around by the hand. We have to think for ourselves, understand what and who we have submitted our freedom in Christ to. I again bring up the book “Who is Your Covering” by Frank Viola as a place to start (besides the bible).
Seeing as nobody from SGM wants to talk polity, either they aren’t reading anymore, or they don’t know enough to engage us, or they are afraid to speak. Or…whatever it is. I share PK’s desire to get a conversation going. There is so much I don’t understand about the way this group of churches became like they are, RIGHT UNDER MY NOSE. That is the way it happened from the early eighties, on. How did this type of church government arise to have such control, while not telling its members what was happening? I know others have said they think the leaders are greedy and power hungry. I just still refuse to believe that can be true (am I nieve?). The men that I knew seemed sincere and at least practiced what they preached (no matter how wrong I think some of their preaching was). It seems like they really BELIEVE that they are right in everything. Is that deception?
Sopwith,
I love your readin’. Good verses. The word of God is like fresh air to my soul.
Jim, I admire your willingness to do that – I did that myself once..in one sense, it was very encouraging to see the progress made, and in another sense, shameful, because of how I had responded. I got over it, and moved on.
But, for what it is worth, I’d give yourself some slack – we’re all growing in this and change doesn’t come overnight, nor does real reform. If we are willing to admit this to ourselves first, then when SGM begins to change their minds about things (Lord I hope and pray so) then we will be patient with them as well, knowing it is ALL a process and we’re learning as we go. We will make mistakes. This is about changing some major belief systems that are flawed – that isn’t easy to do.
I didn’t appreciate being attacked for some of my more “thoughtless” comments last year by some in SGM, which is why I try to give grace to everyone – I don’t always succeed, but I remember the anger I once had (and still do at times) and the difference is I can PAUSE now, it isn’t as emotional. During the time when I was really angry, people like Carole, Ellie, Gracie, and Canary really helped me move thorugh it. They didn’t critcize me for it, they acknowledged it and somehow, I made it through.The next time anger arose, I was better equipped. Go figure. People are being EQUIPPED on this blog..amazing.
It all levels out eventually – and as long as people are having their eyes opened to the truth, the problems, all if it and whatever it is, they will struggle openly here..and there will those here ready to help them move through it and keep pressing on to all that the Lord has for them..
that is what makes the task of blog moderator SO IMPORTANT and critical – if the person hosting the site is encouraging anger to remain and persist by displaying their own time and again, or by passively NOT addressing it time and again, people will follow suit and the blog turns into a huge cyber-venting room. What fun.
Likewise, taking steps like you and PK have in the past (and just now) set an excellent example to be followed that will encourage things to move along, progress, not stagnate…I know you liked to give people some freedom with their posts, but anytime a group gathers, even online, you need some sort of “order” and the moderator does that. I appreciate the diificult task, given most of the people posting and reading here have been extremely hurt and controlled, and fight and lash out easily if provoked. I understand why they do, no doubt. I have myself as well.
So I am praying for you, PK, as you set a new “tone”, not necessarily an improved one, just a new one..because I think (and I know you’d agree) Jim and Carole did a SUPERB job moderating and keeping things focused, encouraging things along in a godly and edifying way – even if others don’t agree (others being those opposed to the blog’s existence in the first place)
I think times are changing, new challenges are ahead, and PK - God has chosen you to lead during such a time as this…Godspeed brave Knight!
Jim,
Apologies? Am I missing something?
Juli,
Well said. We have to cut people slack who are still working through the anger of being controlled and betrayed by people they trusted. In “setting a new tone”, we cannot, must not, forget Esther, HappyMom, or Noel and Grizzly, to name just a few folks. We cannot forget what their time in SGM cost them.
Is this blog going somewhere where there will be no room for people like those I’ve mentioned (and many others)? Is this no longer a blog for the dismembered of SGM to tell their stories? If not, I think I’ll be moving on. I’ve gotta followed the wounded sheep, because they are the ones Jesus would go after. If they can’t post truthfully, and we can’t be understanding or defend them, because others might be offended…well, nuff said.
Also, I do believe that G.D. was only trying to defend my honor, not take jabs at Joel. Really, I do.
Canary,
Yes, that was my intent.
You wrote “Is this blog going somewhere where there will be no room for people like those I’ve mentioned (and many others)? Is this no longer a blog for the dismembered of SGM to tell their stories? If not, I think I’ll be moving on. I’ve gotta followed the wounded sheep, because they are the ones Jesus would go after. If they can’t post truthfully, and we can’t be understanding or defend them, because others might be offended…well, nuff said.”
That is where I am as well.
The “Word of God” is like fresh air to my soul!
HowDee, Ya’All
Canary,
…on March 6th, 2009 at 3:18 pm You said (with such great taste):
“Sopwith, I love your readin’. Good verses. The word of God is like fresh air to my soul.
”
My turn:
...and the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us!
…Behold His Glory!
(Praise You, Jesus!) YaHooooooooooooooooooo!
(pssssssssssssssst. I’ll tell ya a secret…I have read a pile of your posts (and other Kind & Gentle folk here in dese here parts!)
(I got my copies Jim Ha Ha! Not…)
I hearded at my local feed “N” seed store –day gots dis bird seed in fifty pound burlap sacks…I brought two home here just for you…
Yous want um?
Lots mo wheres dat come from… (believe you me)
Ya’as “free” remember!
Sopwith
P.S. Jim, don’t yous worry yourself, We’ss be fine, bet ya can’t stay away, Bro… We’ss got lots of sidewalk chalk here, so’s ya might need ta come by ever so often to hose off da sidewalk…
P.P.S Jim, We miss you already! >tearing< …But yous take dat vacation, ya hear?
Canary:
Anyone can post their stories. I’m wondering why my call to relent on going after each other in what appears to be on a personal level is being interpreted as this not being a place to share stories or for wounded sheep?
In turn, I won’t apologize for wanting to maintain a civil tone here with each other while passionately discussing the issues. Besides, I understood Jim to mean he was apologizing for things he may have said or done that got in the way of the discussion or topic at hand. I didn’t prod him or nudge him in that direction whatsoever. It was his call.
~pk
The “Word of God” is like fresh air to my soul! (Part 2)
HowDee, Ya’All
Canary on March 6th, 2009 at 3:18 pm said:
“Sopwith, I love your readin’. Good verses. The word of God is like fresh air to my soul. ”
“The word of God is like fresh air to my soul.”
Ya think so?
I say, open yous winders, SGM!
With Christ, Anythings possible, ya hear!
Ta tah!
Sopwith
PK,
The thing is, I didn’t see anyone going after anybody. G.D. is always a little playful about my gravatar and, as he also related, he was just defending me. That was not personal as much as gentlemanly. I still have no idea what beef Joel has against me. Now, that was personal.
I don’t understand what Jim is apologizing for, but that’s not for you to say – I understand.
Even your answer to me was a bit terse. Maybe I’m smelling some bad air or something, but you can’t expect people to share their stories if they are going to go through some of the same over-correction they experienced in SGM. If you are changing the tone of this blog so that people cannot relate freely and honestly, which is all we have been doing, then they won’t come here. To this point, I defend the posters here as having been as patient and loving as they know how in their given situations. Without these posters and their stories, we (or you, I should say) wouldn’t have a blog. Please, is that changing? I think we should all be able to know if it is.
I’ve been one of your biggest fans. Cut me some slack, please, and try to understand where I am coming from. Thanks.
Sopwith,
Thanks for the offer, but my mamma told me never to take bird seed from strangers.
PK,
I was not going after Joel. I was trying to add a little humor to the somber tone of Joel’s comment of “Canary, we don’t know each other at all and I’d really appreciate it if you’d quit saying stuff about me.” I have commented many times on Canary’s icon of the cat in the cage with the canary on top. I even asked her what was behind it some time ago. I have made comments on it before to others. If Joel feels that Canary is picking on him, and I should pray for them instead of injecting humor (IMHO) into the thread, then we are trying a little too hard to be PC and taking ourselves a little too seriously, again in my humble opinion. Hey what do I know?
Your Mamma was a wise bird:-)
Thanks, G.D. Wish Joel would tell me how I am picking on him This canary is scratching her yellow head. He won’t tell me, and I’ve asked him twice. Big sigh.
Sorry, but I have to interject; By the looks of that cat, i wouldn’t worry yourself too much.
The “Word of God” is like fresh air to my soul! (Part 4)
Canary, March 6th, 2009 at 5:11 pm You said:
“Sopwith, Thanks for the offer, but my mamma told me never to take bird seed from strangers. ”
Daz ok, Canary, I juz sow some chere it “dis” here “field”….
A farmer went out to sow his seed. As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path, and the birds came and ate it up. Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow. But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root. Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the plants. Still other seed fell on good soil, where it produced a crop—a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown.
He who has ears, let him hear.
What das all dis mean?
Well…
When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is the seed sown along the path. The one who received the seed that fell on rocky places is the man who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. But since he has no root, he lasts only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away. The one who received the seed that fell among the thorns is the man who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke it, making it unfruitful.
But the one who received the seed that fell on good soil is the man who hears the word and understands it. He produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown.
***
A Sow’in we will go… (ya’all know da drill…)
Gee,wit all dis work be’in done, I gota wash my hands…
Time for Suppa!
Chow!,
Sopwith
G.D,
Hee-hee. You’re going to get us into trouble, again.
It’ just that, if I’m going to be accused of offending someone, the least that someone can do is come on an tell me where I did that. How can I apologize for an offense I don’t know that I gave? Do you have any idea what Joel is talking about? He won’t tell me (now I am giving you permission to get involved in this “personal” thing, so I don’t give another offense…sigh…)
Canary:
Freely and honestly is fine. Part of the problem is when things are left hanging and we don’t have the benefit of someone’s tone of voice or seeing their face (not knowing them personally), it can come across as personal. You understood GDfS’s comments as you know him enough here to know when he’s joking or not. Joel may not have had the benefit of understanding that with you, as well.
“If you are changing the tone of this blog so that people cannot relate freely and honestly, which is all we have been doing, then they won’t come here.” Whoa. All I was doing was trying to keep the conversation between you and Joel, without any intereference, as I didn’t know what’s going on with Joel or you; that was my only goal. My request was directed just as much at Joel as it was anyone else.
Why is that we can’t extend to Joel what you would want extended from him? Are we gonna get into a you-shoved-first wrangle over it?
If you’re my biggest fan, why are you attempting cornering me on the future of this blog and throwing in comments like “I smell bad air” and such, with threats of leaving?
How in the world was I “over-correcting” in these statements:
“Beloved, I graciously ask whatever the issue is between Joel and Canary -or anybody for that matter- let’s let them work it out without any goading. Prayer would be a good alternative.
I’d appreciate it if we could disagree agreeably on some things -preaching to myself here first- and avoid the personal jib-jabbery. It’s one thing to get passionate about issues, theology, etc… It’s another to start poking at each other’s eyes.
Thanks in advance,
~pk”
GDfS: Far from being the PC police, you need to read my posts. I’m quite the opposite.
~pk
Musicman
My question was about my current status. I was posting because I am in a SGM church and am considering leaving. It had nothing to do with PK or anyone else. Certainly staying or leaving has to be an individual family decision.
Canary,
I have ZERO idea what Joel is talking about. I think I need to just take a break and breathe some fresh air.
Okay, PK. Maybe it is because you haven’t been here a while. Why didn’t you go after Joel for bringing up some nebulous offense I supposedly gave him? HE was the rude one. Are we not allowed to speak our mind to those who are rude? G.D. was not being rude, he was adding humor. That is all. You misread him, because you don’t know him well. So, since he and I have both explained his remark, can you not see that you “over-corrected” an otherwise innocent comment?
PK, you may have taken over this blog because you are the man for it. Fine. However, maybe I was wrong to give you my trust right out just because Jim thinks highly of you. I did not “threaten” to leave. I suggested that I would go where the hurting sheep are. You are going to have to earn their trust, PK. Especially since you are still at SGM. If I say I am smelling some “bad air”, that is just another way of saying something doesn’t sound right in the way you are communicating to G.D. and I. You made no comment on Joel’s rudeness to me and others (which has happened on several occasions). My responses to Joel have not been offensive in the least (except there was one moment on take it down a notch where I was defending Noel, Happy Mom, etc. from Joel’s “church goes on” comment. He was insensitive in how he spoke. I will not apologize for defending those hurting people, whose raped babies have to deal with horrible memories.) Actually, maybe that is what he is upset about, but I wouldn’t know for sure, because he won’t tell me. Shouldn’t you correct Joel for starting all this without giving detail? I have been falsely accused, as far as I know.
Don’t you see that you jumped to conclusions in Joel’s favor – a member of SGM? Do you not think that will effect who will feel comfortable blogging here? Come on, PK. Think. Are you here to help those who have been run over by the SGM machine, or are you here only to talk theology, hoping the Big Guys will find hearts somewhere along the way and realize they have damaged PEOPLE?
Gosh, I’m really concerned over your responses, here. Something is very off. ARE you changing this blog to be merely talk about theology? Is this still a refuge?
Question-
Thanks for clarifying-I didn’t want to jump in if I was misunderstanding your question….
G.D.,
Breathe some for me too.
PK,
Before I take my break, may I just say that this is your blog! You set the tone, not me or anyone else. I, however, will decide whether or not I will join in. I really enjoyed many of the wonderful brothers and sisters in Christ here, but I am getting that old SG feeling once again. Hopefully, it is just me and a time of adjustment. Time will tell. Blessings to you brother PK, no offence meant.
Beloved:
Joel, Canary and GDfS: I really feel we need to air this offline. In my opinion, it’s gone into the realm of the personal all the way around. Each of you email me with any offenses toward me to pk@sgmrefuge.com If those offenses are at each other, request each other’s email address and work it out, brothers and sisters. If I’ve blown it out of proportion, then there’s no worries and nobody has to email anyone… either way, we’re moving on from this subject.
There’s no sarcasm in my request, honestly. All I ask is that you honor it and not air it any further here.
Everyone: (and I mean everyone… this is not a veiled message to Canary, GDfS, Joel or any one individual)
Joels’ affiliation with an SGM church has nothing to do with any type of favoritism you feel I may be extending toward him by trying to moderate this matter; again and again on this blog I’ve prayed for others, encouraged them, maybe even prayed for you or encouraged you personally. I will continue to do so. I don’t want a medal, all I ask for is some slack when I make a request. I felt compelled to take the high ground (for once, as I seldom do it here) with Joel and simply attempt to do unto him what I would want him to do unto me. My mistake was corraling you and GDfS into my conviction, Canary, and I promise no judgment is passing in any of my statements. I humbly ask that you Canary, and you, GDfS, forgive me for that.
Have I been guilty of personal jabs in the past, even recent? Heaven’s yes, regrettably. I apologize, and please forgive me for that.
In Christ,
~pk
PK,
I have no offense with Joel. If he has one with me, he can come on here and publicly clear it up.
I agree with G.D. The smell I’m getting is SGM to the bone. I’m sorry, PK. Something in your manner is just not right. I don’t trust it. I’m really sorry to have to say that. This is YOUR blog, now, obviously. So, “move on from this subject”. I’ll take a break for a while. God bless.
P.S. By taking a break, I mean that I will not post for a while, until I know that this is indeed a refuge for the hurting. Like I said before, I will go where those people are. If you are going to do the ole’ “my way or the highway” routine, well, you won’t earn people’s trust that way. We had enough of that in the organization you are now presently a part of. I pray, PK, that you will see what I’m saying. Many of us were betrayed, and will not trust easily again. Remember that, please. I say this with my heart in my words. For the wounded sheep. For Esther, for Noel’s baby, for Happymom’s baby, for all who were crushed by the SGM machine whose polity you say you are against. It is these people whose trust you will have to earn, if you intend to remain a refuge. If not, then the Refuge as I have known it is gone.
PK, I am sure that you mean well and you do write very well, but as you have stated, you are still in a SGM church. Therefore, I must depart from this wonderful blog. God bless each and every one of you.
Oy vey.
Praying.
Divide and conquer is all they or we need to do, beloved. Haven’t we all been hurt enough?
okay, folks,
in the words of the famous theologian Steve from Blues Clues, let’s
Stop.
Breathe.
Think.
PK, is this still “a haven for castaways”? is this still a safe place to tell our stories–the good, the bad, the ugly, the nicely-worded, the not-so-nice because it still hurts bad, but hey, there’s grace for that too?
I respect your choice to stay in and your commendation for those of us who chose otherwise. I respect your deep thinking about some significant ‘ologies.
I want to remind everyone that change is hard, that there will be bumps and bruises and misunderstandings, that some will need to move on and that some voices will start to speak up, and hey, there’s grace for this too.
Beloved:
This is a haven for castaways. I’m not sure what else to do other than ask forgiveness for my actions (which I did).
Does anyone realize this type of behavior and sudden seizing upon my motives and demands from me as to what is truly in my heart is the very type of behavior that wrecked so many lives here?
Does anyone know what hits my inbox because of my defense of many here? No, and I’m glad, beloved, that you don’t. But here’s a clue:
“I can’t believe you’d league with others against your own church like this. What a waste of your talents.”
and
“So many are hurting here and yet you remain init a system that has wrecked their lives. How do you have any conscience?”
Does anyone know the risk or peril I face daily by seeking to reform for SGM, and praying with castaways and ex-SGMers? I think at least some of you do, and you need to remind yourselves of that at least once before you drop bags like this on my doorstep:
“…you are still in a SGM church. Therefore, I must depart from this wonderful blog. God bless each and every one of you.”
Nope, sorry, I’m not going to the leper colony because I’m still in my church.
So with all of this being said, why have you come to the conclusion that I’m attacking when I was asking for peace? And then when I explain myself, the flames get fanned and people start linking arms to march away from evil PK, full blooded SGMite! We knew it, yes we did!
Where is the Grace that all of us -me included- speak so cavalierly about here?
~pk
Hey guys-
Can we give the rookie a break?
Absolutely!! The people here have very sensitive SGland detectors, and when they go off, there seems to be a lot of circling the wagon because we have been banged up enough, already.
Canary, you must come back. This site would NEVER be the same without you!!!! You have incredible insight and a flair for humor. Don’t fail me now!
PK – thanks for coming to my defense. I’ll make it simple. I’LL “leave” the site so the regulars can stay. Nite all!
G.D.,
Sorry. PK’s responses continue to put me off my feed. Something isn’t right.
PK, nobody called you evil. You certainly aren’t listening very easily to what was genuine input, heartfelt for the people who come here. Rather than hearing what was said to you, you bring up what you are risking. What defense of us? Where was that defense, today? Joel, who comes after me, now bows out without expaining what he has against me. Is that fair? Right? Yet you go correcting poor G.D., who was only being a good friend. It was a tone, or attitude in your words that reminded me of the old SGM ways. Then you want to go offline, behind closed doors, when this is a public conversation. I cannot, will not go there again.
Anyway, I thought I would add this response to your last post, but will respect your request to “move on” by not posting about this again. Hope things go well here. I really do. Wounded sheep, sheep in YOUR church organization, need a place to get help and healing. I’m not sure you are up for that, but I hope you are.
I’m going to head off to other horizons. This isn’t a good place for me, now. I’m just causing contention, I guess, with what I’m feeling. I hope this site will continue to be the refuge for hurting folk that it started out to be.
The Lord bless and keep you all! My prayers are for you! It’s been an amazing experience knowing you all. I say that from the bottom of my little yellow birdie heart.
G.D.,
I want to add that I pray you and your family continue to heal from your SGM experiences. You’ve been fun to talk to, and have added your own sense of humor to lighten things around here. You have seriously important insights to add to this blog, things people need to hear. Keep going!
PK,
I can appreciate the difficult line you are walking, and I don’t envy it. Instead of rehashing what was said or implied, or whatever, we need to press on. I think you know there IS no reform without a refuge where hurts can be raised. The nature of the hurts are what identify the areas that need to be reformed. I hope this blog continues to be such a place.
There will be many who have left SGM who will not trust you, simply because you are in SGM and you’ve never experienced what many of us have – it is that simple. Justified or not, valid or not, the feelings of some who have been shunned, slandered, beaten down, betrayed, controlled and manipulated are real, and because you have not experienced that publicly yourself, that can and will be a cause for concern in some. Not all, but some. The fact that you are experiencing some behind the scenes persecution I am sorry for. But to many, private railings, presecutions and slander don’t compare to the public ones that they have received. But I do appreciate you sharing some of the behind the scenes with us, that helps us all to understand that those in SGM don’t see your presence here as a “good thing.”
My advice to you (take it or leave it of course
would be to continue to pray for those who are hurting and for those who seek to help them – I think perhaps the greatest equipping that comes from walking down the same path as someone else is the empathy and passion for them as your brothers and sisters in Christ, and the freedom and faith to say: you will survive! If the focus here shifts to mainly reform, which may be the direction the Lord is leading for this particular site, (I don’t know) please share that with others as you are made aware, in a way that will give them time to find other ways to move on, heal, and connect with like-minded people. And for those who are here to help others primarily, they will not be frustrated when the conversations and posts don’t lend themselves to such interaction. I don’t know your plans for the blog, or if you even know.just that if it changes from what I’ve described, it would be good to let others know so they can respond accordingly and not cause and division or distress. Each person here is here for different reasons.
The problem is always in the extremes – a site solely dedicated to ranting and raving doesn’t promote healing in the long run, just a place to vent (which is extremely important initially) but venting is simply a STEP in a long process – but a site that is focused primarily on discussing reform, without an opportunity to express some anger, sarcasm, joking, teasing, whatever comes out – also give s a feel of control – which is VERY frightening to those coming out of SGM. It would be great to have a balance for both – as people are able to freely share their stories (some with anger, saracasm, snarkiness and hurt all through them) others can discuss the underlying problems that contribute to these feelings..and we can all work together towards HEALING (in those hurt) and REFORM (so no more will be hurt).
I hope my dear friend Canary will allow me to speak for her here, since she has chosen to not comment at this time and get a breather. I admire and applaud her boldness to continue to fight to make sure the voice of the hurting are heard. She has and will continue to come to the defense of those who are hurting, angry, upset, confused..she did that for me and still does that for others.That type of gifting, equipping, heart, and love for the Body is MUCH NEEDED here. I love her dearly and I absolutely agree with her motives, and know exactly why she discerned what she did and came to the defense of another.
There needs to be a freedom to do that – and not all the assumptions and such. Nobody is perfect of course..but even when emotionally-ridden comments are made, on both sides, it becomes the responsibility of the moderator to, um, moderate. I’m not telling you how to run your blog, PK. Really, I hope this isn’t coming across like that. But in this type of situation people will clearly make lines in the sand even if you aren’t – I’m sorry for that. They are passionate about what they are passionate about and should not need to apologize for that. And you should not need to apologize for what you are passionate about – if those passions are different, then we should assume both are needed here. It should not be is this site about being a refuge or a place of discussing reform? It should be both, in my opinion. Because both are needed. But if you are not focused or equipped or passionate about the refuge aspect, or are having difficulty relating to those terribly hurt, whatever -again, I don’t know – then that is fine, no big deal. But others who are passionate about the refuge aspect (wanting to help others) and those who need a place of refuge (those hurt) will not stay unless you are clear that you will allow and encourage that, even if you don’t personally focus your posts and attentions to it. Does that makes sense? I hope it does!
I am of course assuming you appreciate the many brothers and sisters here who have spent countless hours contributing their time and energy here for months, (myself included) giving of themselves not because they themselves were terribly hurting anymore, but because they had healed enough to taste of the freedom and joy found at the end of the tunnel and all they can think about is helping others find it. They (we) aren’t so focused on figuring out what the problem is anymore or how to fix it – we are about releasing prisoners, binding up the broken hearted…. Not everyone is going to be focused on the same thing. Nor should they! That is the beauty of the Body. And a “blog Body” needs some freedom to express themselves and reach out to others without fear of being attacked or feeling their place here is unwelcome.
I am praying that you and Canary work this out, publicly, not privately. And just so you know, when discussions are moved “off blog”, right or wrongly perceived, to us who have walked out of SGM, is IDENTICAL to the tactics we experienced while in SGM. It raises HUGE red flags for many of us. So if you didn’t know that – you do now. I guess you probably didn’t know that since you haven’t experienced it (at least I don’t think you have, I don’t know what you have experienced or not). But please know, that offline, private interactions make many nervous. When a misunderstanding has occurred on the blog, it should be corrected on the blog, in my humble opinion.
I’m praying..praying..praying..for you, for those who post, for those who hurt, for those who read…may God be glorified and give the grace we need to give each other..
Canary – if you are still reading, I guess you posted while I was writing my book above! sorry..you spoke well for yourself..you didn’t’ need me to! I love you sister….I am so grateful for your presence here, and I know many are as well. You have consistently and boldly encouraged people to follow Jesus and I know that was God equipped you specifically to do – and any progress anyone sees in me since first posting almost a year ago on Survivors should know I owe much of that to God working through you alone. Words can’t express my gratitude to you..thanks for keeping the focus what He told you to..
Canary,
Thanks for your kind words. They are immensely appreciated. Your words of caution are well taken by me, also.
I will participate more on the sidelines for awhile. I am a little tentative right now and feel that I need to monitor my words a little more carefully than I felt the need to before.
Keep that kitty cat in the cage, tweedy bird, and continue living freely in Christ.
Jim & PK,
Sadly, i am not surprised at the heated and distrusting feedback that is coming at you for trying to restore a more thoughtful tone and reasoned spirit to these discussions.
Thank you for trying. Keep trying, or the useful impact of this site to SGM and the good people you are trying to help will be roughly the equivalent to a dismissive yawn and Joel-like decisions to “leave the site so the regulars can stay.”
It will be an uphill fight to restore civility and reasoned dialogue and to discourage the exaggeration, misrepresentation, and mocking tone that characterizes so much of the back and forth here. (In the name of being wounded and hurt.)
I care too much about the heart objectives of this site to not be honest about this. I know this won’t win me much favor among many that are here, but the value and effect of this site will shrivel to nothing if you worry too much about what dominant “voices” shout along these threads.
I believe you men are trying to maintain integrity, grace, and credibility here at refuge so that truth can be compelling heard. Do not lose heart – even if it means losing commenters who have a narrower and less constructive vision of what it is to call for reform and offer refuge.
Juli,
You know you are one of my favorite peeps. Thank you for such encouraging words. I love you, sister saint!! See you over at BD.
G.D.
Keep that kitty cat in the cage, tweedy bird, and continue living freely in Christ.
Thanks, friend. I intend to.
Taking Note, accusing some here of mocking words while writing this to PK: “Do not lose heart – even if it means losing commenters who have a narrower and less constructive vision of what it is to call for reform and offer refuge” and then “the exaggeration, misrepresentation, and mocking tone that characterizes so much of the back and forth here. (In the name of being wounded and hurt.)”
is very telling. And very condescending and hurtful. You have no idea what you speak of. This is not an either/or situation – we can have reform and a refuge, one does not have to come at the expense of the other…in order to have reform, you need a safe place for people to heal and vent, and people just need to get over the fact that when you are hurt you get angry! Good grief.
And some of these people have NOWHERE ELSE TO GO. That’s huge. They are alone, confused and hurting..what about them? And so these people will make comments that are heated, and comments that are mocking, and there is a way to take things down a bit – Jim has always done an excellent job.
And so now here I stand, defending those who are reading and posting here who are hurt, and will be hurt again, by your words above. What say you?
I think the real question here is for PK alone – so others will know who read and post here- the question has come up –
PK – is this a place where people can still share their personal stories? and what will the response be if they “lose their tempers” or vent, or get upset, or show emotion, or sarcasm, or whatever..? because if the response will be they will be attacked or even that they will feel no one sympathizes with them – then they won’t post. Ever. And they won’t read. And that is not a good thing. They need to take the first step.
And I think it is only fair to clarify that here and now..so no one else is hurt. Enough is enough.
I think the events of this afternoon started when Jim stated above to PK, “In order to enable some of the changes that we have discussed…”
When I read that comment, I inwardly cringed – and I’m not even a present- or ex-SGMer. Why? Because “the powers in control” have secretly discussed things behind the participants backs and have planned unspoken changes. Oh, of course we all realize that Jim and PK have every right to discuss things privately. Of course we all know that the owners of the blog can make whatever changes they want to their own blog.
But, Jim and PK, this blog has been a place of comfort for the participants who have sort of taken ownership (so to speak) of the welfare of this place.
But with that comment, Jim you left a pregnant pause.
I think, in a split second, what runs through the minds of the refugees are thoughts such as:
What, exactly, are the planned changes?
How will these changes be implemented?
How will these changes affect ME?
Why are these changes being kept secret?
Why the allusion to changes without plainly speaking about them?
Will you come clean and let “us” know what the changes are?
WHEN will you come clean and let “us” know what the changes will be?
Or will you slide the changes in and expect people to automatically adjust to them?
Understand? We are feeling these things. And these things are EXACTLY what SGM has done to their sheep. This is how the SGM polity works. Do. Don’t ask. Just go with the flow.
Can you understand how sensitivities were aroused?
Maybe you can come clean and talk to us about the changes you guys discussed. I think that will help clear up the “mess.”
Juli & co.:
I and my family were involved in a legalistic cult (understatement) years before coming out. I’ve experienced quite a bit of what a lot of people have experienced here. I’m not trying to one up everyone on their pain and past, but it isn’t like I don’t have a clue about it. And I need to head this off at the pass: The sad thing is, the few times when I share that aspect of my life, most have responded with “well no wonder SGM seems okay… it was better than a cult.”
A haven for healing, I’m all for. Emotions are to be expected. But it’s not a haven to line up and throw rocks at the next SGM member who comes in; It’s not a haven to dump our tragedies on them, and put masks of the people who wronged us onto the faces of those who come onto this blog, even if they make smart aleck remarks, even if they do drive bys, and even if they are bankrupt of charity or the slightest clue. The comments about Joel were carried over from the “Take it Down a Notch” post (a title that seems almost comical in hindsight), and I wanted the spitwads and such to stop. That’s how it looks to the world as well, beloved, whether you want to see that or not.
Based on the remarks regarding Joel, the consensus seems to be that he was less worthy of defending than others.
I thank Christ that He didn’t adopt that attitude toward my soul.
I’m not sure what else I can say, or what tone I’m supposed to conjure up to bring warm feelings… all I can do is type.
Again: Canary, GDfS and everyone, for that matter: please forgive me.
~pk
very good and insightful thoughts Remnant, thank you so much for sharing them…and much more concise than my own
PK – thank you for responding. You answered my question. But I think perhaps two things remain in light of what you said – 1) your view of what healing can and should look like, and 2) when you mention the way this blog looks to the world, who do you have in mind, specifically? And what impression are you wanting to give them?
Thanks in advance.
Wow Remnant, Canary, and all
Do you honestly believe that these men should be berated and treated as disloyal to you all, simply because they are making an effort to:
1. Maintain integrity, grace, and a godly spirit in the content and tone of this site.
2. Preserve at least a sliver of the credibility needed to make a real impact on real, reasonable people in SGM and beyond.
If all you care about is venting, mocking, making extravagant overstatements, and claiming that you can say and do anything you want because you have been hurt and wounded – then feel free to continue in your present method of operation. You can continue your hostile-spirited huddle together and know, beyond a doubt, that no SGM leader, member, or even hurting soul will be able in good conscience to give heed to the many good things they should be hearing from a site like this.
I do not write without understanding the types of passions and pains that wring out your hearts. My family and I have as significant and life-altering a SGM story as almost any I’ve read on these sites – plenty of excuses to be hurt, wounded, and irrationally rabid toward the leaders, practices, and abuses of this ministry.
Please listen to the wise hopes and thoughtful changes that Jim and PK are graciously pursuing to bring weight and integrity to the “cause” that drives so many of your hearts.
Juli & Remnant:
Juli, you’re right, enough is enough.
Remnant, I’m not sure how much cleaner I can come.
I’m not going to have demands put to me any more when I’ve said repeatedly that this is a haven, people can share their stories, emotions are expected… I can’t spell things out or say anything to satisfy this apparently burning need to know if I’m going to address somebody for what appears to be them going after someone. Every situation is different, and it should be evident that I could never make a blanket statement in that regard. It’s simply absurd.
I am speechless as to how I’m being characterized through the questions and how much is injected into my statements, and how reckless this seems to me in what’s nothing less than a low-grade shakedown or interrogation because I dared to do what you said I should be doing Juli: moderating:
“Beloved, I graciously ask whatever the issue is between Joel and Canary -or anybody for that matter- let’s let them work it out without any goading. Prayer would be a good alternative.
I’d appreciate it if we could disagree agreeably on some things -preaching to myself here first- and avoid the personal jib-jabbery. It’s one thing to get passionate about issues, theology, etc… It’s another to start poking at each other’s eyes.
Thanks in advance,
~pk”
I still stand by what I said, and how it devolved into this ungodly mess, I’m done trying to figure out, and I’m done explaining myself until I am blue in the face.
~pk
Juli,
My words were intended to be very “telling”.
I’ve read dozens of reverse attacks like you do to me here. Accusing of accusation. Slashing at those who are supposedly “hurting” everyone here by telling the truth about the damaging and tragic attitude of so many here under the cover of hurting and healing.
I could easily have predicted the accusations that would come at me of condescension, heartlessness, etc. simply because I made plain statements about the obvious tone and content of so many comments on these sites.
Again, have your way – as long as your goal is to encourage a festering and poisonous spirit in hurt people and to drive away thoughtful people from giving any weight to the sincere message and right purpose of this site.
Guys,
The “changes we discussed” have to do with moving the blog to another server.
My apologies were for dumping posts, along with their comments, and for dumping PK’s graphics without talking to him.
I haven’t said a word to PK about how I want the blog run in the future. It’s his. I like his attitude and admire his wisdom, and I trust him.
If you like anything about this place, please thank PK for taking it over. Had he not, I would have shut it down.
PK
“It’s simply absurd”!
I couldn’t agree more. I understand your speechlessness and your grief at the barrage that has been fired at you.
Thank you for standing by your words and please don’t give up in your whole-hearted commitment to fairness, a good spirit, and integrity in your bold stand for biblical change in the world in which you fellowship.
Taking Note – thanks for adding fuel to the fire here.
“these men should be berated and treated as disloyal to you all”
nobody here was including Jim in any of this, first of all, and secondly, no one was berating PK or thinking he was being disloyal. Talk about assumptions. Don’t put words in our mouths, please. We are simply trying to work through things as brothers and sisters in Christ. What are you trying to do? I’d advise you to quit trying to make things worse.
And PK, I know you said you are done explaining yourself – do you really mean that? Do you really refuse to answer questions and concerns I (or others) might have, or are you just upset right now and needing a break and that is why you said that? If so, I understand wanting to cool off and waiting to respond. But I do have concerns and questions I would like to ask. So I will ask them here, and please feel free of course to answer when you find time..thanks.
First – I’m surprised you aren’t saying anything about Taking Note’s comments and how over the top they are..don’t you think so? You just said something about not wanting this blog to be about throwing stones and spit wads and about three of us just got hit by Taking Note and accused of things towards you that were not true – did you see it?
I find Taking Note’s coming to your defense rather unsettling to say the least.
That is a first here. When dissenters start defending the blog moderator – what’s up with that? I’m truly at a loss – I’m wondering what you are making of all this yourself which is why I am hoping you will clarify – because it is weird now, given Taking Note’s comments in the midst of all this. I would imagine you are trying to remain neutral, but I’m just being honest when I say that the impression is that you are defending those “inside” SGM by not addressing their spit wads and stones being thrown at us – but yet ask us to turn the other cheek when we are hit and not fight back - us who have been hurt, us who have come to this blog as a refuge. I understand when you say don’t attack these people as if they were the ones who hurt us before – clearly that is sound advice and I think will be followed. But the fact is, Taking Note is clearly attacking our us, here and now, and our defending ourselves our words and our thoughts are much needed – it was something we could never do in SGM..and this is not about attakcing SGM – it is about addressing the accusations currently being made against us. So is that allowed?
I don’t think anyone here expects YOU as moderator to defend us..part of healing is learning to walk on our own again and speak for ourselves – but for you to ignore their comments while simultaneously critisizing ours (the tone of comments made in the past and trying to change things for the future)..it just comes across very wrong. I’m sorry if me saying it like that comes across as harsh, but that is simply how it appears to me. PLEASE correct me if I am wrong.
Juli:
I haven’t addressed Taking Note’s comments yet because I haven’t had time yet to come up for air. And as far as answering any more questions tonight, I’m done. I hope you can understand. I’m worn out and just need a break, like you said.
I’m just so physically and mentally and spiritually tired of the lines of demarcation here: defenders and offenders, good guys and bad guys. You hurt me, you didn’t. I wan’t this, but because you’re over there you can’t have that. He shoved me, he didn’t. They’re worth saving, no they aren’t.
What noise this must all be to God. Lord, forgive me.
Taking Note,
Let’s get one thing CLEAR here…the reverse attack as you call it was a DEFENSE of myself and others because YOU attacked first.
Good grief. This is out of control. PK - I will wait for your response before posting again because now I am just outright mad as a result of Taking Note. And contrary to some accusations and beliefs, not everyone here posts in anger.
thanks PK..waiting to hear from you after a break..for us both. Glad to hear you will be addressing Taking Note’s comments..I look forward to that.
Wow Juli,
Are you serious? How do you make dogmatic and judgmental comments about anything you disagree with and then feel comfortable to make broad, condescending condemnations of a voice offering clear, different perspectives.
You tell me I don’t know what I’m talking about, you give me rebuking advice – can you possibly miss the irony and hypocrisy of your attack on my participation in this discussion?
Yes, Jim was included in remarks about the changes going on at this site and, yes, PK was (and is) certainly being persistently and relentlessly berated. It is laughable to suggest otherwise, to anyone who has read the last few dozen comments.
Where do you get your superior and unchallengeable authority. How can you write so condescendingly to PK about me, while making jabbing accusations about the sincere and serious comments that I have sought to add to this unreal and heartbreaking mess.
PK,
Do not lose heart. There are many, many people who want and need the balance and wisdom that you are seeking to apply to your leadership at this site.
My comments are over.
My only hope was to make it clear that there are many out here who are heartened by the desire of men like Jim and PK to promote grace and wisdom in blog environments like these.
I am sorry, Juli, that you view any bold difference of opinion as an attack. I have no desire to aggravate you and I will add no more to this discussion. I had only hoped that one could speak plainly here without this response.
I pray for much grace and blessing to you all.
Beloved:
After reviewing the posts last night, I’m grieved even more. It doesn’t get any easier reading it even after sleeping on it. In fact, it seems worse.
Juli:
I’m not going to have a who’s it gonna be, Taking Note or us? – type of discussion, debate, response, or whatever you want to call it. I’m convinced based on last night’s comments that whatever my response is, it will only be met by some (not everyone, but some) with a dozen more questions, demands, and my motives will be questioned again and hyper-analyzed, and my words will be twisted relentlessly. If I criticize Taking Note, I’m sure it won’t be deemed adequate enough and that I am still in league with the “enemy.”
What I have done here at SGM Refuge & Reform and my future actions and words cannot and will not be held hostage by anyone’s tragic experience with SGM, especially my own.
I’m tired, so tired of regurgitating all of this over and over again. It’s so disgusting. If my confession of sin and asking for forgiveness -which occured several times throughout this- isn’t adequate and some individuals can’t seem to move on from it or doubt it’s sincerity and want punch lists and their version of penance completed and hoops jumped through to prove myself and “regain” their trust, then the problem is no longer mine and I won’t be enslaved to it anymore.
I am begging everybody: Can we, for the sake of God in Christ, move on from this? As in no final parting shots, no final nasty-grams, no buts, no verbal door slamming upon leaving, no thing that would disgrace this place further? Can I make a request like this as a brother in Christ, and not be accused of being an SGM control freak baddie or whatever other names and adjectives one is tempted to hurl?
~pk
The Quizzler has been taking note of some interesting developments here at the Refuge……….
Seems like there is a very purposeful agenda being put forth.
Quiz time…………………..
Identify which of the following activities are being pursued.
A) Attempted alienation of long-time posters
B) Pandering to the site hosts
C) Subtle bullying cloaked in false righteousness
D) Divisiveness
E) Blatant attempt to hijack and steer the discussion
F) Same old SGM preaching
G) All of the above
Did you answer G ? Go to the head of the class.
Jim, thank you for the clarification on the “changes we discussed.” I think your simple explanation helps. To know that there is no behind the scenes controversy is refreshing. SGM refugees, I’m sure, will be glad to know that there’s been no great conspiracy hatched [unlike what was experienced in SGM].
PK, my comment was not intended to be a statement of detraction. I want to say, “I’m sorry you took it that way” except that is a twisted apology, isn’t it? It says, “Gee, what a dweeb you are!” Not. Can I ask instead, “Did I really come across that way?”
And I do have a serious point of discussion for today, based on the thread topic. I think I’ll make a new post for it. Hopefully it won’t get buried between other issues.
PK, I’ve been mulling this over for a couple of days. I think I’m finally able to pinpoint what I’m thinking.
You go to an SGM “local church.” (Is there another term I should call it? Congregation? Branch?)
My Premise: Your SGM experience is atypical of the typical SGM refugee.
(This doesn’t make you bad or a bad host or anything along those lines. This is totally unrelated to those discussions! This is just me, mulling over your SGM experience and comparing it other people’s SGM experiences. I’ll try to point out what I see. I hope to encourage discussion on this issue and not dissention.)
You posted this about your pastor (March 5, 2009, 8:37am):
I know my current pastor. The supremacy of Christ pervades his preaching and teaching, and this has kept us in a unique bubble. He has even openly addressed the sin of SGM exclusivity and introversion that prevents a person from openly sharing the Gospel to everbody; he really believes Christ’s command in Matthew 28. Much of what I have learned has come from this pastor.
Please bear with me while I pick this description apart:
Point One - I know my current pastor.
This is atypical. You actually know your pastor! I imagine that you’ve shared life with him. I imagine that he also knows you. He knows your name. He knows the names of your wife and kids, right? He knows what car you drive. He knows how you take your coffee, I bet. You knowing your pastor is so much more than they typical SGMer gets to experience with their pastor, from what has been shared here. You’ve been able to cross the line of demarcation, separating the have’s from the have not’s, whereas the typical SGMer has not been able to penetrate that territory.
Point Two - The supremacy of Christ pervades his preaching and teaching, and this has kept us in a unique bubble.
I’ve been reading this blog for quite some months and I’ve never come across anyone else who describes their pastor’s preaching as you have here. I recall comments from SGM refugees (and/or survivors) about Christ being absent from sermons. Even his name is absent. If Christ is mentioned, these folk said His name is rarely spoken. The preacher will use “the Lord” instead of “Christ” or “Jesus.” Some have said that when they came out of SGM, to hear the name of Jesus was refreshing. But you freely used the term “Christ” which makes me think that your pastor also freely uses the name of the Lord: Jesus Christ. This is another atypical experience of the typical SGM refugee.
It sounds as if this man has been able to keep himself above the fray of SGM’s sinful (guilt inducing) foibles. I wonder how he’s done that without drawing the ire of SGM’s “apostles.” Those at this SGM church are truly blessed to have this strong and Godly man as your pastor. He seems unaffected by SGM’s usual script. And I see that even you understand that this man and your church experience because of him is “unique” amongst SGM’s “family of churches.”
Point Three – He has even openly addressed the sin of SGM exclusivity and introversion that prevents a person from openly sharing the Gospel to everybody…
To discuss these sins openly, he first had to see them, understand them and, finally, to disagree with them. He was able to think for himself. He was able to discern. He was able to be honest to himself. He was unafraid to confront these ideas without concern for his own life and welfare.
To know he then took these things he saw and then courageously and truthfully addresses them with the congregation is mind-boggling. This simply does not sound like the SGM culture I’ve read about!
You’ve mentioned three hot-topics in this one sentence that your pastor has openly disapproved of: exclusivity, introversion, evangelism. How atypical! How wonderful! How awesome!
After reading these things about your pastor, I can now further understand your desire to seek reform for SGM. I am one of those who think reform is impossible because of the corrupt foundation (and I sat in TAG meetings hearing CJ think out loud about the perfect church and how he would do it). But I can now understand why you think reform IS possible: your pastor has reformed his own life, has somewhat separated himself from SGM norms and still maintains his SGM identity.
Maybe there is hope, PK. But how many pastors would have to be willing to take the risks your pastor is taking? How many who do take those risks will find themselves booted out? How many would be willing to stay? How many would choose instead to walk away? I do wonder how your pastor has managed to stay under the SGM radar.
If only your atypical local SGM church was typical of all SGM local churches, I imagine there’d be a whole lot less refugees!
I was not, am not, and never will be in SGM, so I believe I can look at this situation objectively. I think the Quizzler’s observations are correct.
May I share with all of you my constructive comments?
SGM Refugees have been deeply hurt by spiritual leaders whom they fully trusted, and if anyone on this blog tries to minimalize their pain it will be harmful to their healing process.
In defense of Protestant Knight, there have been inflammatory comments made to the pro-SGMers who dare to post on this site, and they have been marginalized.
Finally, this blog would not exist if there were no SGM Refugees contributing to the dialogue. If they stop commenting, PT may as well just shut down the blog because it will be of little or no value to the reformation process. As a matter of fact, any chance of reformation within SGM will cease unless dissenters continue to sound the alarm of the spiritual abuses they have experienced.
I’m praying for all of you. May God’s will be done!
Not trying to cause any more of a disagreement, but I thought I should say something. First off PK thanks for being gracious in trying to answer those on this blog with questions.
I know I don’t post on here a lot (I like to guard what I say.) I deeply respect many of you who have encouraged me through your stories and the way God has been moving in your life, but this discussion has gotten a little crazy. Many of us have stated that we want people from SGM to come on here and discuss what is going on in their church. We want leaders to come on here and start speaking up. I want this to, but at times the conversations get out of hand. Proverbs 15:1, “A soft answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger.” Do we want to use “harsh” words when an SGMer comes in or do we want to speak softly and have more of an impact? Granted, there are times I just want to tell it like it is to those who drive by and post here, but what good will that do? I will be like the individual I was before God opened my eyes to what was going on in my local church.
Don’t get me wrong writing has its limitations as we cannot hear tone in writing and sometimes we think we understand the tone when we don’t. Whether we want reform in SGM or we think it is hopeless, many of us care for those sheep and yes even some of the leaders in these churches. Some of these individuals may be reading on here and yes God might not be opening their eyes, but inviting them in to speak in a civil manner or replying to their harsh comments with gently words may be what God wants in the aiding of scales being removed from their eyes.
I respect both Jim and Carole and if they trust PK then so will I. Doesn’t mean we will always agree on everything but we have to give him a chance.
Wanda’s quote:” In defense of Protestant Knight, there have been inflammatory comments made to the pro-SGMers who dare to post on this site, and they have been marginalized.-” I’m ready for the rudeness to go. Time to quit making commits to people like Joel who posted as if hes an outsider because he has a different opinion.
Thank you for being honest about that.
Taking Note: you are right on. Thank you for being bold and truthful and saying what many would like to. I agree with your posts
Remnant: Good post (above) and I would offer that I’ve had PK’s experience with many of the pastors. They ARE real and normal people who love Christ. Yes, they know my kids names, and how I like my coffee. I don’t think the SGM culture you have read about is true in ALL their churches but certainly some of them. I can see how a bad experience would cause one to arrive at your conclusion and a good experience would bring one to PK’s view. I have had both.
…He has given to us, –All that have received His word, –the ministry of reconciliation.
HowDee, Ya’All,
Thanks for the warm welcome… :~)
As you know, Kind & Gentle Folk,
God Almighty has given to us a great reason to hope in this existence of “flesh”, –in that God Himself, –has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ.
God Almighty has not abandoned us!
God has not forgotten his Promise.
But rather, He Himself has fulfilled it!
He has given to us, –All that have received His word, –the ministry of reconciliation…
–with this message to share with all who will listen:
–That God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them.
We are greatly compelled to implore others on Christ’s behalf,
– be reconciled to God!
God Almighty has provided a way!
We are always reminded that God Almighty Himself, made Him (Jesus) who knew no sin –to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him, that we, in Christ might be new creatures, because the old things are passed away, and new things have come.
This is good news indeed!
(In plain language…) >he,hesnickerhe,he<
Thank you again for your great welcome!
I speak Peace to this place, In The Name Of Jesus!
Sopwith
P.S. Ya’Alls in my prayers…
P.P.S. “Can one of Ya’all pass the gravy?” >snicker<
PK..I will refrain from any further comments about the recent conversations on the blog. My questions, while unanswered in the way I expected, have actually been answered. I have been in prayer the Lord would reveal to me His will about my purpose here, not focusing on others, and He has.
This final comment is not meant to be a parting shot in any way PK, but because of the fact that I have posted here since the beginning last summer (and even before that on Survivors) for almost a year with quite regularity, I feel the need to say my time here is also over. This time to leave came over at Survivors about two months ago – now it has come here. I rejoice the Lord is always working and revealing, and I will continue to follow Him where He leads.
Blessings to you all – and praying the Lord will use you, PK in the manner He has revealed to you..
Peace out – Juli
</angst>.
PK,
I just wanted to get back to the discussion on SGM polity, but first a little personal background.
Before SGM I was in a church that was connected to the original “Shepherding Movement” in the 1970s and 1980s. I basically stayed in that church until it completely fell apart due to an overemphasis on pastoral authority. After that church ceased to exist, I promptly moved out of state and joined an SGM church.
Church polity in the Shepherding Movement in the late 1970s was hierarchical like SGM, but with a twist. Members would pay tithes directly to their small group leader (shepherd). Small group leaders paid their tithes to the senior pastor who tithed to whoever was above him, probably one of the “Fort Lauderdale 5”. This practice created an incentive for small group leaders to counsel their group members in a way that encouraged bigger tithes. Shepherds would promote a dependent relationship and would be controlling in ways that go far beyond what I have seen in SGM. In fact, I was relieved when I joined SGM that it was not as controlling my previous church.
When I joined SGM I was very aware of the authority structure being apostle –> pastor –> small group leader –> member. I fully agreed based on the teaching from the Shepherding Movement that basically advocated a Roman Catholic type structure. The teaching was based on the idea that the Apostle Paul planted churches and appointed elders by recognizing who God had already decided to be elders. Those elders were given authority by God, so members needed to submit. I knew of no evidence at that time that the New Testament implied any congregational part in church polity. I attributed desire for congregational input to the American over-emphasis on individualism.
What are some Scriptures that teach congregational input in church polity?
Anyone else know of Scriptures encouraging congregational input into church polity?
I am really saddened at the comments here. I am more of a reader here and I feel a bit like I did when I left my friends at my church-uneasy and sad. I’m waiting for Bethany while she does her speech in her college class (3 hours long) and she’s doing it on cults. So I thought I’d catch up on the Refuge. I don’t know if it’s just me being melancholy or if I’m angry at the comments but this blog has been a lifeline for me. Thank you Jim, Carole and PK for giving of your time,wisdom and emotions on this. PK, I feel bad for you because this blog IS a refuge and I personnally need it. I don’t claim to be as brilliant as most of you are on polity, scriptures or whatever is being discussed, but I am being educated on what I had swallowed without question in my sgm church. Please people, let’s LISTEN to the person who is sharing and if we disagree, be civil. I really enjoy learning from ALL of you-in or out of sgm!
I’m not closing the doors to anyone here.
Canary: I am saddened, truly, that you’re leaving. You were always encouraging to me and others here, and I hope I’ve communicated to you since I’ve been here that I really appreciate that. I am sincerely sorry.
Juli: I always appreciated your voice here, and your encouragement to everyone here. You will be missed.
Remnant: “PK, my comment was not intended to be a statement of detraction. I want to say, “I’m sorry you took it that way” except that is a twisted apology, isn’t it? It says, “Gee, what a dweeb you are!” Not. Can I ask instead, “Did I really come across that way?” — Remnant, there are no worries, and my apologies for misunderstandings on my part.
Sopwith: Much appreciation for the balm of scripture being applied to sores. Thank you.
Wanda: Your comments were constructive, and appreciated; as far as the last paragraph: “Finally, this blog would not exist if there were no SGM Refugees contributing to the dialogue. If they stop commenting, PT may as well just shut down the blog because it will be of little or no value to the reformation process. As a matter of fact, any chance of reformation within SGM will cease unless dissenters continue to sound the alarm of the spiritual abuses they have experienced..” Dissent is always welcome on this blog, but the days of the schoolyard fights and name calling are over, and I mean that for both “sides.” I think it’s very sad I have to use the word “sides” at all, so yet again I’m going to remind all of us -me first- we are the body of Christ. A “haven for castaways” doesn’t need battlements, and “a call for a change in course” doesn’t mean using a Navy destroyer. If this comes across as too authoritarian and some decide to marginalize me, I’m going to live with it. The blog will shut down when God shuts it down, and I take comfort in that.
Bethany: Thank you for the encouragement and exhortation from Proverbs 15:1. I need that verse more than anyone.
Taken by surprise: Thanks; also know I’ve had good and bad experiences as well with SGM. I’ve been a member in more than one of our churches.
SGM Single: Scriptural support for congregational involvement/consultation/consent in Polity/Church Government (direct and/or strongly implied, as well as crucial decisions and installment/appointment of leaders; also included are the scriptures verifying all Christians in a “royal priesthood”):
Old Testament
Exodus 4:29-31
1 Samuel 7:5-6; 10:24
2 Samuel 2:4
1 Kings 1:39-40; 12:1, 14-15
Proverbs 11:14
New Testament
Matthew 18:17
Acts 1:15, 23; 6:3,6; 15:22
1 Corinthians 5:4
2 Corinthians 8:19
1 Timothy 5:19
Hebrews 10:19-25; 12:22-24
1 Peter 2:9
Anxious: Much appreciated, thank you.
~pk
How grieved I am to read the past day’s blogs. I don’t say much, but ready daily. I pray continuously for those here, bringing your pain and woundedness before our Jesus, asking HIM to smooth the “balm of Gilead” over each of you. I pray and intercede that righteous grow from this sight and that HE be glorified.
Yet, today, I have seen many behave and lash out in the very way they claim others have wounded them. Have we let the poison of the sin perpetrated upon us become a living, viable, part of our lives in such a way that instead of cleansing these wounds, we are infecting them more? Are we making our pain so much a part of us that we again are “looking to man” and how he is rejecting and “attacking us,” rather that looking up to HIM to be healed? Have we reached a point in all of this that it is more important to be right and acknowledged that we know best, (isn’t that one of the chief complaints here against SGM?) than be in relationship? If I read correctly, Our Jesus was about relationship.
Are we truly helping each other here when vented in anger and rage? There is a need to vent, no doubt. BUT to attack and hurt others in our venting is not a priviledge we are allowed as HIS followers. How does this bring about healing? I believe part of the definition of a refuge is a place of safety, comfort, and refreshing: a place to be protected. Why can’t we “protect” those that come here with words of encouragement, telling them that He sees their pain and tears, and is waiting for them right where they are to hold and love them in their grief. Why aren’t we listening to their stories, validating their pain and then praying with them, giving them scriptures and promises from HIS word that will carry them to the next day?
Instead, we are “topping” each others stories ;adding alcohol to open wounds. WE are feeding the monsters of rejection and abandonment; giving them more territory in these precious ravaged hearts. WHERE is our responsibility to our brothers and sisters? Aren’t we to “stand in the gap” and lift them up in their brokenness, rather than continuing help that wound stay open and spread deeper into their sweet spirits?
I know many have been hurt, but to continue in this vein of accusations, competition, and rejection of those who think differently than us makes us no different than that very thing we are fighting so hard against. Sadly, it appears that we learned well from those that so agregiously came against us. NOW we are the accusers, attackers, and the rejectors. I wonder if HE has a bottle for HIS own tears.
Could the Quizzler be reading a different blog?
Where is all the supposed “lashing out, anger and rage”?
Could it be that the posers here think that if they say it long enough and loud enough it will be believed?
Could this be an attempt to shut down all open discourse?
………..and what about the statement above “Sadly, it appears that we learned well from those that so agregiously came against us. NOW we are the accusers, attackers, and the rejectors. ”
This is nothing less than SGM-Speak for………even though you have been sinned against, you are just as bad a sinner as the ones that have sinned against you. There really is no right or wrong – all are sinners so get over it.
……and what does this have to do with polity anyway?
Mimi:
I do appreciate the prayers and exhortation, very much (I’m at the top of the list, believe me, as offender).
Thank you.
~pk
MMMM..
Quizzler, SGM “speak” I think not. You see, one does not have to be in an SGM church to be hurt and wounded. One only needs to have a history of the same thing happening in a different church, walking down the path of “justified” behavior, to be able to look back and see the damage the wrong way of handling things can cause. We saw this sin that “sheparding” was causing. Addressed it. Was removed from ministry, our children rejected, false truths and accusations spread. AND the most painful of all for us. Had to hear over and over that to question a we did, it was impossible for us to “be saved” and know jesus, therefore we must have been a plant (for eight years) from Satan to tear down God’s work.
No where in my post did I say these things need not be addressed. No where did I say that these things are not valid and true. We are told that out of the mouths of two or more a thing shall be confirmed. NO WHERE did I say we should not believe and act upon these things. I did say that I believe how we handle these situations would affect and possibly determine the outcome of all this. Those that became so actively aggressive in telling their story soon developed a reputation of “me thinketh he doeth protest too much,” being accused of trying too hard to maybe cover up their own part in the mess that was brewing. My sweet husband, after we approached the subject told me that we had done as been instructed by the Lord.
We had been watchmen, spoken truth, set our faces like a flint, and their blood was no longer on our hands. We waited, stood strong and silent and waited for the “salvation of the Lord”. We still prayed, fasted and asked HIM to bless
ALL involved……all the time, me crying in pain for us, our children, the loss of our friends…but..not willing to stay or go back into that arena. WE needed HIM to be okay…not people.
HE does not need our help in resolving this. HE does not need our coming against others on this site in order for HIS plan to come to fruition. However, we can be HIS “hands and feet” extending the love of Jesus to our brothers and sisters in their pain.
Polity…what does this have to do with polity???? Well to me, it appears that some on this blog have created their own polity of how it should be handled, who should be defended and if the “right” side isn’t taken, then there is no support here and that it is their right coming against anyone who disagrees with them. Polity is polity…WHEN IT IS WRONG…IT IS WRONG….
Oh yes, by the way. HE handled our situation..HE brought out a truth no one was aware of: something that had absolutely NOTHING to do with the sheparding movement….. Investigation, criminal charges and prosecution transpired. In the midst of all of our ranting and raving….one stoke of HIS finger revealed what was needed for the world to see truth of what was happning and bring down the denomination…No, I don’t believe HE needs us to “make this happen”……..
PK, thank you for your kind words. I will not respond anymore, as I DO NOT want to bring anymore division or be the cause of angst here. I just thought that a voice who has traveled the same path, might help ease the pain of those here…
I will continue to pray for all involved. I know HE will heal and deliver. WE are proof of that….
Mimi:
You have a clarity in what you witnessed we all need to hear. Praise God that in spite of the past, you are making great obvious strides in Him!
Thanks again,
~pk
SGM Single:
Let me know if you have any questions about those scripture references I gave you. By no means do I ever have any final word on interpretation (I am not a professional theologian), but I can certainly tell you why I posted particular items. I’d cross check it with commentators you trust, and more than anything, earnest prayer brings clarity.
Also, anyone, please give your thoughts on those references if any have piqued your interest.
Take care,
~pk
(PK… forgive me for bringing this up again, but I felt compelled to reply…)
I’ve been sitting on the sidelines, watching as this whole thing unfolded before my very eyes. I had to re-read the comments several times, over and over again… I would jump to the top of the page to see if I was really at The Refuge, or if I had entered some kind of “Twilight Zone.”
Nope. I was really at The Refuge.
And I have been speechless up to this point. I watched as this escalated out of control. And for the life of me, I can’t find the offense. Do I think that different words could have been used? Sure! Do I think that offenses were shouldered where none were intended? Sure! Do I think that this family squabble is getting in the way of what God wants to continue here at The Refuge? You betcha!
I can’t tell you how grieved I am over this situation. I wonder how much more grieved our God is.
When Jim and I started The Refuge, it was with much trepidation, but our eyes were wide open… We knew that this was a work that God had called us to. And we have all seen God do many incredible things here, things that are just too big to be nothing less than God’s hand working and moving. There is no way Jim or I, or anyone else, could take any credit at all for what God has done! He has healed many hearts, many hurts and wounds, He has helped get us back on the right path, with Him leading and guiding us, He has brought many together here who have had experiences in their SGM church that were wrong, unbiblical. This site has been used to expose the unbiblical, hyper-authoritarian, legalistic, just-plain-wrong teachings of this “family of churches”… He has helped us see that we are not crazy, that what happened to us in our SGM churches has happened to many, many others. He has brought us together here at The Refuge, for our own healing, to help others as they walk through similar circumstances, and to call for reform and change within SGM.
He has created a safe place here. And, even more than that, He has created a family, a group of people that truly love each other, pray for each other, grieve together, minister to each other.
So what is going on here?
When Jim and I decided that it was time to leave The Refuge, we prayed, we sought God… We asked a lot of questions. Should we just shut it down? Is there another alternative? What does God want to do here? God’s answer… Ask PK to take it over. We asked PK, he prayed about it, and agreed that God wanted to use him to pick up the torch and carry on.
Here is where it gets a bit weird for me. PK has been our friend, commenter, and co-host here at The Refuge for 7 months. He has posted his thoughts and his convictions for all to see and read. He has proven himself here. He is a man of God, a man of Truth, a man who is seeking to do the right thing by calling for reform within SGM. He sees the issues clearly, he knows the problems that exist within this movement, he has spoken out against these things time and time again. He is putting himself on the line for all of us here. Just because God has chosen a different path for him to walk this out on, one that is different than ours, does not make him the enemy.
He has spent hours praying, seeking God on your behalf, hours of studying the Word of God and comparing that to SGM’s wayward teachings, that we could see and understand the underlying issues, the faulty foundation of this organization. He has loved all of you, poured out his heart and soul here at The Refuge. All to have his intentions challenged because he is still in an SGM church? Or because he asked us to “take it down a notch”?
Maybe he didn’t ask in a way that we felt “was nice”… Maybe he could have chosen different wording. But instead of becoming offended, can’t we look beyond his wording and look at his character? Can’t we give him the benefit of doubt by relying on who we know him to be? Can’t we give the rookie a break?
Of course there will be changes here. Due to different personalities, different experiences, different perspectives. But there are many things that won’t change. This is a place of refuge. This is a place to share your stories, your experiences. This is a place of love and acceptance. None of those things have changed. What PK was asking of you all was to show kindness to those with all points of view, from the ex-SGMer’s to the current SGMer’s. He didn’t ask you to accept and embrace the teachings of those with different beliefs… He simply asked that we don’t all gang up on them and chase them away. He was calling for civility, to treat the dissenters the way we should treat them, as Christians. We want to have conversations with current SGMer’s, we want to dialogue with leaders of this movement. We don’t want to play “maul ball” every time someone comes on here that doesn’t think the way we do. Love should reign here, for all.
Jim and I love each and every one of you here. I think we have proven that. This has been a place of much healing, restored hope for many who had thought God had left them, and a place of love and compassion. Do any of you really think that we would leave The Refuge in the hands of someone unqualified to carry on the work that has been started here?
Jim and PK have spent a lot of time together, on the phone and through email. Jim knows PK’s heart, as much as one man can know another man. And all of you know PK’s heart. You have shown and spoken of your admiration of him and his love of truth, you have shared here on the blog and in private emails of your respect for him. You have read his words, you have voiced your love for him, you have agreed with him in your comments. We would have never left you, our dear friends and family, in anyone’s hands that didn’t have your best interests at heart. Nor would we have left The Refuge in someone’s hands that God had not wanted it left in. What changed your view of him?
I’m not here to point fingers and say that anyone was wrong… I am saying that what happened, happened. All families have their squabbles. But, as families do, we should be able to work this through. It seems to me that it was a series of unfortunate events, misunderstandings, and I’m sure there are regrets. PK has asked for forgiveness for the part he played. (Up to this point, I haven’t seen forgiveness granted.) I’m saying let’s let love rule here. I’m saying let’s work this through together, let’s get past this (through forgiveness and love, not “sweeping it under the rug”), and work together to accomplish what God has called us to do here.
Let’s fight together for SGM to change it’s unbiblical ways of doing business.
Let’s not fight with each other.
PK,
Canary: I am saddened, truly, that you’re leaving. You were always encouraging to me and others here, and I hope I’ve communicated to you since I’ve been here that I really appreciate that. I am sincerely sorry.
Thank you for that.
I think the Quizzler (whose wise words were not responded to) said it better than I. Maybe someone should address his thoughts.
My concerns were not with your request to keep things civil. They were with your responses to my posts, where you ignored my heart and my past record of caring for others here. I cannot apologize for my defending of them. I have always been as patient as possible with the dissenters who come on with rudeness and meanness. Yet, you allowed the discussion to implode to the point that we were being accused of calling you the “enemy” (which we did not), to the point that we were called rock throwers and spit wad spitters and ungodly. You let those words go by.
You did not take advice given to you in a meaningful way by a few of us oldies who saw something that needed warning about. You became prickly. It was, to us, like SGM leaders. Your continuing to focus on our criticising you for wanting to be civil (which we were not against) instead of truly listening to our concerns, and trying to work them out with us…well, we’ve experienced that in the organization you represent. How could we not come to some of the conclusions we did?
I felt strong armed and unfairly represented. I felt worry for those who will come on in the future, share their hurt and anger, and have dissenters go after them with no protection from the moderator, since you did not choose to come to our defense when Taking Note said the terrible things he did.
I have never been a “rock thrower” on this site. When I have disagreed with some, I have come at them with facts, not spitwads. If I got frustrated because dissenters felt free to slam people, but would not debate with scriptures or facts, I did not answer with the same rudeness they came at us with. Humor, yes. Sarcasm, sometimes, when it seemed appropriate (Paul used sarcasm). Never with hate. Never. Yet, dissenters come on here to accuse us of terrible motives SIMPLY BECAUSE WE DISAGREE WITH THEIR LEADERSHIP. Taking Note is such an example. His words were hurtful, untrue, and typical of what many of us have patiently put up with in the past, hoping they would see the truth in our own more measured words.
So my hurt, my offense was that all the good, all the patience and love that I and others have shown on this site was now being presented as vitriol. And you did not come to our defense. What does that do to our trust that this is a safe haven? What will that do to the future of this blog?
I have shed many tears over this in the past two days. I hope that you have shed a few. I and others who have posted for a while have been here to help lead the dismembered of SGM to Jesus, to His healing balm. We have defended them, protected them, and served with love as best we could. Your responses to me, Julie, G.D., and others (again, not the request to remain civil – we all agree on that) did not reveal the same heart towards us.
Carole posted that she and Jim trust you. That is why I trusted you from the very start. That is why I was trying to warn you of possible problems coming to this blog if you try to walk the fine line of supporting SGMers to the point that they may say whatever they like (Taking Note), yet remove our ability to respond, because in our just disagreeing with them they take offense, no matter how we say it. That is why the previous discussion upset me so – you, in your responses to me, made it seemingly evident that we could not longer defend the truth, unless you approved of our tone, when our past postings show that we do consider how we present the truth, even though dissenters can be so obnixious and thoughtless. It was as though you agreed with Taking Note’s comments, since you did not chastize him for what he said, but went after poor G.D. who made a comment about my sill kitty in the birdcage. I ask, which comment was worse?
Did you ever wonder how that kitty cat ended up in the cage and the canary ended up on top of the cage?
OR
If all you care about is venting, mocking, making extravagant overstatements, and claiming that you can say and do anything you want because you have been hurt and wounded – then feel free to continue in your present method of operation. You can continue your hostile-spirited huddle together and know, beyond a doubt, that no SGM leader, member, or even hurting soul will be able in good conscience to give heed to the many good things they should be hearing from a site like this.
One comment was a light-hearted attempt at humor. The other comment was vitriolic, slanderess, and untrue. Yet you said nothing to Taking Note. Why? Do you agree with him? Do you see why I felt such dismay, enough to leave this site? Surely you can see this.
Well, I guess that’s all. I only came on to respond to your gracious words at the top. I also felt a responsibility as a long-time poster to explain myself a little better than I managed to the other day. My apologies for not presenting the facts more clearly. I think, as I was becoming more and more alarmed, I also allowed too much emotion into my posts. It often results in conflict, men’s logic verses female intuition. So, I am sorry for not measuring my words more carefully.
I apologize to all the readers, as well, if I caused confict with you. I believe sincerely in what I’ve posted, but if my heart didn’t come accross as I meant it to, I can see why some might be upset. Words just don’t always explain clearly what the heart feels.
PK, I wish you the best on this blog. I hope you see the Reform you are looking for. That would be a day I would celebrate with you! On that, at least, we can agree. The saints in SGM deserve to know their freedom in Christ, as do all believers.
Very sincerely and in great love for the Lord’s one sheep whom He left the 99 to go after, Canary
Carole, and anyone else who is interested, I could not agree more with Canary’s sentiments. I agree 100%, what she experienced is what I experienced. And that is why I left as well. We both have always had the same heart: to help those hurting to find healing. When the place we have been doing this changes, it is upsetting. That’s all.
PK- I see the new work the Lord has by bringing you here. I agree with it! I love it! But I am saddened because this is not MY work..and therefore I must leave and I will miss this place…but nevertheless, I wholeheartedly support what the Lord seeks to do in expanding His grace towards others. I do think that there will be continued increase of those hurt feeling like this blog is no longer a safe place to share stories – and while I absolutely believe PK, that that is NOT your intent, the very nature of the new work dictates it cannot be safe for BOTH parties. It is impossible.
Those who have left SGM need to be able to vent their emotions, including anger, without feeling condemned, judged, watched, etc. for their every word. The increased presence of SGM members here as a result of them feeling wanted and accepted will result in new problems. Your desire to maintain an environment that is honoring and godly here is certainly commendable, and will encourage more SGM members to comment without fear. But that freedom for them comes at a price for those hurting. The hurting will no longer feel free to post.
The fact remains that for healing to happen in these people, they MUST work through the emotions in a place that they feel safe. If your focus is to make the SGM members feel safe (and clearly they do now since they have praised you as blog moderator twice in two days and your lack of response towards their attacks will encourage more, like it or not) and you refuse to “take sides” (again, a good thing, just not conducive to healing for reasons I have explained) please know that by default, something has to give. In this case, it will be the hurting.
I want you to know that full well walking in. I admire the new vision and work the Lord has set before you, but the changes will come at a price. I think that is why Canary and I sensed it so quickly – our presence here is 100% a result of our desire to see others set free. When the environment changed we knew we could not stay and minister the way the Lord has called us. No hard feelings – because again, I believe the Lord is doing a new work here, one that will ultimately allow current SGM members to have a safe place to come and talk..without fear! That was needed.
My leaving is not in anger, resentment, or anything else bad. I don’t disrespect you PK, or distrust you. It was never about that for me.
So to those reading who are hurting and wondering what is happening, please know this: This is not a division in a bad sense, this is a division in the sense of multiplying – the work the Lord has to do will increase as a result..but it is wise to bear in mind that with any new work, there are some unsettling moments as things shift. And I wanted to share here, for the record, for those that may not feel safe anymore, not to be upset if you feel you are losing a place of safety and refuge..but rejoice that the Lord is extending His grace to those currently inside SGM to offer THEM a place where they can discuss reform.
There is a place for you still, beloved. You know who to contact..many emails have been exchanged here in the past and at Survivors.. and for those seeking healing who might be unable to find it here or who feel hindered in some way, take heart and don’t be discouraged - the healing that you seek is best pursued privately and in a place where you can focus your efforts on what the Lord leads, and not be distracted. That is the limitation of blogs open to everyone unfortunately. But there is much behind the scenes encouragement that can be found if you desire it. Pray the Lord would lead to you the right person to help you continue in your healing journey.
There are places to find healing. If you desire it, seek after it. You are not alone in this – please know. I am praying for each of you, and may the Lord richly bless you and you, by faith, pursue freedom, healing, and wholeness in Him.
PK – God bless you brother – stay the course you have been placed on. My prayers are with you as well..
Well said Canary! Your passion and love for God’s people and the truth is contagious. I think we, in our Western mind-set, are too interested in being “nice” and living in our “nice” neighborhoods, and going to our “nice” churches and saying ”nice” things has robbed us of that fire, that passion that drives reform and real change.
This site, without that passion, will become void of life. Real dialogue can be civil but NOT void of passion and yes HUMOR–good grief. Jim said that his honor is “twisted” in a Sept. 2008 post. Well, I guess mine is too. Yes, I think the cat in the cage and the tweedy bird on top is hysterical. If me pointing that out to someone who is making phantom accusations to a friend is a problem, then we need to lighten up just a bit, IMHO.
This site was a refuge to battered SG people, am I right? Maybe I missread that. Well, if it is, can we make that theme what drives this site without apology. If others join in who are at a different place than the majority of us, wonderful. But can we allow this to be a place where SG insiders can come and do their divide and conquer thing here? NO, I do not mean people that still go to a SGC; rather, I mean the drive-bys, the trolls.
Hey this isn’t easy. I better stop. I am finding it hard to express myself for fear of being misunderstood. I hope that this site will return to a place where we can be ourselves without TOO short of a leash.
In my above post there is a correction: Jim said that his humor (NOT HONOR) is “twisted” in a Sept. 2008 post. Sorry, I guess we can blame that on spell check.
Juli,
My goodness, that was an amazing post. Thank you, thank you, for once again giving clarity. You words were gracious and freeing. We should all study on this, pray, and then go where the Lord is calling.
PK, I wish you the best, and again, will rejoice with you if reform happens at SGM.
G.D.
You always make things so simple. I like simple. You have so much to offer those who come on here. You’ve been in the “inner” circle. Your voice will be important in supporting PK’s, I think. I hope you will feel free to continue, here. He’ll need experienced ex-members to provide facts. You SAW some things that some of us only felt but could not prove. Plus, you will provide some of the heart here that you speak of. I’m sure PK will also appreciate that, especially if more SGMers come on to debate polity with him, which is what I think he wants. Maybe we are all doing the same work, but in different ways. We all want to see the prisoners set free (those prisoners being all believers who do not walk in their freedom in Christ). Right?
God bless, my brother in Christ.
Carole spoke for both of us, so I won’t comment on the exchange.
I will say this-if we are thinking in terms of us and them, Taking Note is one of us. Read his former posts. He is not in SGM, wants to see reform, and has been a great encourager offline.
Change is occurring in SGM. I have a new hope that had died. I had given up hope.
Think about it-a SGM member is hosting this blog. I think I first asked PK to take over the blog in September or October. The timing had to do with one thing only-he (finally) said yes. Those who are unhappy with his performance during his first week as a blog host should aim their commentary at me.
back to reform…
Think about this-connect the dots-I post an “apostolic” directive that was only sent to sgm senior pastors. Just ponder that for a minute.
Here’s a question I think many of us should ask ourselves-
If we see genuine reform within sgm, will we rejoice?
Juli,
I have just read today’s post on YOUR BLOG, and I really appreciate your heart. I want to let those who have been hurt by SGM know that they can dialogue with you at the following link:
http://undertheterebinthtree.wordpress.com/
Perhaps God is dividing the work of this blog. SGM Refuge and Reform can focus on bringing much needed change to Sovereign Grace Ministries while your blog can minister to those who have been abused by the “system”.
May God bless the efforts of both of these forums!
Jim, we should, and I will! But it isn’t on my personal radar. That’s all. I’m not investing time towards it in any way, and that’s OK. I am however praying for it! It doesn’t mean I don’t care about it. Just because others don’t invest time in reaching out to those hurting doesn’t mean they don’t care about the hurting, either. I invest time where I am led, and vice versa. I pour into people, others pour into ideas. Both are needed. It isn’t either/or.
All I’m saying is that as far as a blog goes, I am seeing now that you can’t focus on both reform within and offering refuge to those without in the same place without offending one of the “sides” …and UNTIL there is healing and reform, let’s face it, there will be sides whether we like it or not. But the same place to work through two distinct issues in two disctinct groups of people? It won’t happen, in my opinion.
But the need for reform is great and is certainly being implemented by God’s Spirit and THAT is why I believe the changes here are good and as answer to much prayer by many people. And in my opinion, (just my opinion!) this blog has decidely shifted focus to taking steps towards REFORM and for that I greatly rejoice! But my focus remains what it has always been..it isn’t a point of contection, and those who see it as such have missed the point.
I’m not saying you see it that way, Jim, I know you know my heart and I know yours and trust your decision to ask PK to take over – and I do trust PK to carry out this vision of reform – he is the one called to do it and God has equipped him. I’m not worried about that at all – just the confusion for those who might not understand why I l left and to reassure them there’s still a lot of fight in the dog, as you said when you left..we’re all just moving around, moving on..and it’s all good.
Leave a Reply
Jim said,
Here’s a question I think many of us should ask ourselves-If we see genuine reform within sgm, will we rejoice?
Juli, I think we’ve just been shanked. After all the support, the love, the time, this questioned had to be asked of us? I won’t dignify it with an answer. This is my last post.
Jim,
I’m not sure I understand what the “apostolic” directive means but as far as will I rejoice if there is genuine reform? I’ve been asking myself that and I don’t like my answer. There’s a part of me that wants that but if there was a change, would the people I knew be able to welcome my family back? Also would I be able to walk down the halls of my church and not still have the feelings of guilt and condemnation? I think reform, if it happened, would take time and I’m not sure I would be willing to wait. I’m ashamed of my feelings about this because intellectually I know I should forgive, have faith and move forward but where i am right now, i couldn’t do that.
Sometimes I wish I could but I’m still very confused and one of the walking wounded.
Canary-I wasn’t even referring to you.
Not So Anxious Anymore,
I understand EXACTLY what you are saying! You know what I am walking through at this very moment…
I am praying for you, my sister! We will get through this together, with God’s help!!
Jim, I have a comment in response to you but it’s stuck in moderation
Jim, Sorry, but it was such a horrible quesiton – you seemed to be referring to us all. I’ve tried to explain my heart. It just isn’t coming through. So I’m gracefully bowing out so as not to add anymore distraction. I love having known all of you!
PK,
As we already know, we could write pages on each Scripture you brought up on the subject of congregational input in church decision making. I want to start with the one that seems to be frequently mentioned in cases of alleged abuse of authority.
Matthew 18:17 “If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.”
Of course, when church discipline is brought up this passage is often referred to by SGM leaders without being read in its entirety in context. I think the official SGM position is that only paid SGM pastors are allowed to “tell it to the church”, which of course means simply announcing a final church discipline decision that paid pastors have already made in private without the church’s input.
I think I get what you are saying about this passage. In the passage Jesus nowhere says you must be a leader to bring an erring brother before the church. I assume you believe that the passage means that if that erring brother needs church discipline, it must be brought before the church as a CONGREGATIONAL decision, not merely a decision of paid pastors working behind closed doors. Especially if that “erring brother” is a senior pastor who controls the salaries of the other pastors, it makes sense that the decision should be made by someone NOT on the payroll. Since Jesus himself did not state that it must be a paid leader bringing the erring brother before the church, I don’t see why we should make a rule that it must be a paid leader. This passage really does seem to be a command to get congregational input before the decision is made to treat an erring brother as a non-believer.
I would appreciate it if you or someone with more knowledge of the original language, history, and culture would comment on whether I am misinterpreting this.
OK. I’m going to attempt once again to offer what I “see” and how this perspective has actually given me hope and not despair. If I am wrong in how I see things, then feel free to correct me, PK, Jim, Carole, whoever..but as a backdrop to what I am going to share – remember what James said was the reason for fights and quarrels among us – it is our own desires. These desires are not bad in this particular case (or ever really), but when they “feel” threatened we respond..and usually these responses eventually cause division, and that is ultimately what I see happening here:
Me: My desire is to primarily help the hurting and create a safe place for them. While I also desire reform, it takes a back seat to helping those who have come out of SGM or want to.
Jim (and Carole too I would imagine): You have spoken of having renewed hope recently and I can understand why – and I think this is triggering the desire again to see reform and put it on the front burner so to speak. There were times not too long ago you shared on this blog your lack of hope – I rejoice this hope is returned – and I see it reflected in your desire and passion to see reform take place. You too are of course interested in the hurting and providing a place for them I know that has not diminished or changed in any way, but reform is foremost in your mind presently. I see this evidenced by the question that you (Jim) did about reform..notice how the questions Canary and I keep going back to have to do with “but what about the hurting?” it all stems from our desires.. Jim, I see your question as one that came out of a heart that desires reform and wanted us to desire it as well. And we do, but it is personally not my primary desire at this point. The hurting are. That’s all..it’s ok to have both desires..they are not pitted against one another.
PK: I don’t know you too well PK, but i can see your heart most clearly in creating a peaceful environment where SGM members can post, comment, etc. This is a change (as perceived by people like me) who have previously seen this place as primarily focused on the hurting. In my mind, the two (desires for reform and desires for refuge) are exclusive in this sense only, because both cannot find total freedom to express themselves without fear of being misunderstood by others..that has happened time and again, and the reason it happens is because of, again, the individual DESIRES that we are acting on..this is an issue of venue/means/forum to achieve these desires, not about the two desires being right or wrong or greater or less. At least that is how I see it.
Those Outside SGM/Those wanting Healing/Those hurting: they want to be set free, plain and simple. They want to know WHY. They want to feel safe. They don’t want to be attacked or feel attacked for their feelings and opinions, which they need to air in order to heal. They want to move on eventually and begin a new life with a new identity in Christ.
Current SGM Members: They have questions they want answered. LOTS of questions, probably first and foremost of these is, why are there so many who feel hurt? They aren’t all callous and cold, indifferent to the feelings of others, but sometimes their desire to have their questions answered comes into direct conflict with the real experiences of people hurt. And both parties react.
So do you guys see all the players and desires here trying to work through it all? Throw in this very public venue, the knowledge that SGM is watching our every move and reading our every word, add to that a fear of being discovered as a commenter, the needs/desires to fit in, the need for love, acceptance….add all this together and what have you got? Certainly not unity.
But there can be unity, if we would all just acknowedge one another, realize the different desires at play here, and not condemn the desires, condemn the ideas, or the people..not try to pit one against the other..I know none of us wants to do this intentionally, but beloved, intentional or not, during the last three days on this blog hurts have increased and people are confused and emotionally drained now. It needs to be addressed.
I want to start by apologizing publicly to Jim and Carole. I do not want either of you for one minute to think I am second-guessing your decision to move on, asking PK to host, or your desires for reform, or the hope that you have for it! I am rejoicing over all of these things! Please forgive me if anything I have written has led you to believe otherwise. I love you both dearly, and am excited at the work our Father is doing in your lives.
PK – Brother, I have said before I don’t envy your task here, but I know God has equipped you. I too ask you to forgive me if anything I have written to or about you has caused you to be discouraged or distracted from that purpose God has entrusted to your capable and willing hands. Discouragement was not my intent at all. I love you in the Lord, and know the sacrifices you have made, while perhaps different, have been great, as with all of us. You too love the Body and want healing and reform, so we are of one mind.
Taking Note – I don’t know you or your story really, I only know that I perceived an attack. I hope you forgive me for jumping to that conclusion if that was not your intent – you probably have earnest desires at work here as well and speak from them. I simply don’t know you enough to give grace to that end, and that was my fault. Please forgive me.
“If we see genuine reform within sgm, will we rejoice?”
This is an absurd question because after so many years it would be impossible to say that it is genuine or not. Its like the guy who wants to keep his wife so he promises to change and indeed stays out of the bar for a couple months, but deep down its still a self centered motivation and he eventually ends up in another pain relief addiction. Or control pattern, or whatever.
Even seeming repentance can be done to avoid loss of power/job/position.
It would take such a drastic change to convince me- CJ and others stepping down, public apologies, accountability to non SGM good guys- that SGM would no longer even exist in its present form.
Jim has some new hope? He sees some changes? Honestly I would say you are in the same category of the girl who is trying to conince herself that really its gonna work out, why drunken boyfriend is trying to change…when the guy has not submitted himself AT ALL for deep repentance with counseling and accountability. It is delusional, the guy isn’t going to have lasting change. There must be certain actions taken in any situation like this ( public confession, counsel, ongoing accountability, removal of the abuser).
Just my take on it. We would all rejoice to see those things happen. But your little changes…… well, I think you are fooled. Deeply deluded. No offense, I hope you are right.
SGMsingle,
I’m thinking 1 Cor 14, which describes an interactive assembly, should inform how we read Matt 18. Also telling is 2 Cor, where Paul is clearly appealing to the body in regards to a Matt 18 issue, with mention of leaders noticeably absent.
If you go to the 9 marks website, take a look at the 9th Mark. They give a pretty good apologetic for congregational government.
Juli-
You’re forgiven
Thanks for asking. My opinion, which is and should be carrying less weight these days, is that you’ve been a sort of co host here. I think that there’s room here for a great diversity of opinions and objectives. You know my opinion on how well this forum can act as a true refuge. B.D. is proof of that opinion.
My reason for hope has far less to do with things you and Carole have discussed than the whole apostolic directive thing. I find that event to be historic.
Thank you Jim, that helps me understand where you are coming from better..I guess I don’t really know what the apostolic directive is – what did it say exactly, and when did this happen? So that is the reason you have hope now?
Wanda, thank you for your kind words, but just to clarify – I certainly have no desire to use my personal blog as a means or place of healing for anyone, for the same reasons I listed here – it is a public blog open to anyone, you are unable to address the multiple concerns and issues at hand in the most effective manner, it is not meant for that specifically..yikes, not what I intended at all! But it was for me a starting point..and hopefully all these blogs are a starting point for the hurting.
The most effective work towards healing goes on behind the scenes, people emailing Kris, Guy, Jim, Carole, PK, whoever privately and in confidentiality..and feeling safe to share in that way..that is what I meant. Bottom line, public ANYTHING is not good for healing..not in the long run anyway, only intially..a lot of great work does go on behind the scenes..the blogs are way to connect with these people..that’s all I meant.
Jim, did YOU write the apostolic directive or someone else did and you posted it here? I just re-read and you said earlier: Think about this-connect the dots-I post an “apostolic” directive that was only sent to sgm senior pastors. Just ponder that for a minute.
Where was this? Did I miss something? How do you know this was sent to all Senior Pastors in SGM? And again, what did it say? I guess I am unable to connect the dots because I don’t know where the dots are
Juli-
It’s here
Beloved:
Apologies to all as this has been a busy Sunday. I’ve got a personal obligation tonight; Promise to be back here later tonight to answer q’s and comment on topics. Juli and Canary, it is wonderful to see you two here (that’s the truth and not some half-baked kissy-faced posturing).
Jim: check your ‘fuge email.
SGM single: what Jim said on Matt. 18 – ditto for me, but I promise to give my thoughts later as well.
take care and God bless
~pk
mimi said, “We saw this sin that “sheparding” was causing. Addressed it. Was removed from ministry, our children rejected, false truths and accusations spread. AND the most painful of all for us. Had to hear over and over that to question a we did, it was impossible for us to “be saved” and know jesus, therefore we must have been a plant (for eight years) from Satan to tear down God’s work.”
Oh Dear Mimi, I’m SO sorry to hear you’ve experienced such horrible pain. Wish I were there for a hug (if indeed you are a hug person). God bless you.
5 years in PDI-
Just for clarification on your 5:07 post (no sarcasm or slam intended): Are you saying that God isn’t big enough to make those kind of-and greater-changes? I have chosen not to stick around SGM, but I would like to see them change their ways. Again, no personal slam intended, but try not to put God in a box.
Canary,
Thanks for your encouraging words. As for me, I am in limbo, not really knowing how this will look when the dust settles. I don’t think anyone really knows yet. If it is a place primarily for the those hurting and abused by SGM, I can call it home. If it’s primary focus is SG reform, I will probably become more of observer because I find 5yearsinPDI’spost right on point. I personally know what some in high places see as the future of SGM.
The man I am talking about is an “apostle” and he doesn’t propose change. He (I KNOW PERSONNALY) is into the authority of the top-down, shepherding type. He handles conflict with an iron hand, turning the spotlight back onto the poor soul who would dare challenge him. I have rarely seen such blatant arrogance. But I have heard dozen use the “HUMILITY” word on him as he is referred to from the stage and “pulpit.”
The good news is that God does work all things together for good…, even not so good stuff.
Juli,
I still see your blog as a ministry to the hurting. I pray that God will reveal His specific will to you because you express such deep compassion for those who have been spiritually abused.
I’m glad the Survivors blog and SGM Refuge have helped so many who are suffering. I continue to keep these individuals (who are completely unknown to me) in my prayers, and I do pray for dramatic reform.
Boo,
5 years in PDI- is not putting God in a box; he is saying men in leadership like many in SG leadership generally become addicted to their power and control and do NOT change. IMHO
Yes God can change the King’s heart, but the only time I personally saw change in a organized “church” or cult was when the Worldwide church of God changed from a cult to a VERY legitimate grace-focused church that would shame most evangelical churches today. You talk about grace, they got it!!!
We have to be cautious to not imitate Job who, when the Ninevites repented in sack cloth and ashes, went outside the town and pouted under a vine because they actually repented.
Then he pitched a hissy fit when the dumb vine withered.
And God reminded him, ‘Why are you throwing a hissy fit about your freaking stupid vine? A ton of work was done in the kingdom today, look–nasty misguided sinners repented and were restored, and you are pouty and upset about your dumb vine???”
Just saying is all.
(To my own heart, mostly. Cuz I am a hissy-fit throwing, dead vine whiny mess.)
I’m guessing you mean Jonah? (Just in case someone else is reading and trying to figure out when Job pouted beneath a withering vine.)
Jim, thank you for the clarification you made , I appreciate it and now understand why you have hope. That really changed how I see things through your eyes. That is the kind of communication we need here at all times, especially when we don’t have the blessing and advantages of being face-to-face. One day, though, we will all meet in person and how wonderful that day will be as we praise God together for His mighty works..especially in SGM and those who have been involved in some way.
As for me, I will still be moving on from the Refuge..rejoicing in the possibility of reform and repentance by SGM and always praying to that end..but my focus is concentrated elsewhere. I am thankful the Lord doesn’t call us to the same identical work, how boring would that be? :) But we are all working towards the same ultimate goals and that encourages me.
PK – will continue praying for you as you press on for reform and seek to provide a platform here where everyone is welcome and feels safe to share their thoughts and stories and perspectives. It is much needed! Thank you for taking on that awesome task in faith.
Wanda, I am confident the Lord will continue to enlarge the plans He has for his scattered and battered sheep. I am so thankful to be a part of that in a small way, and I know His work in me this past year on the blogs was to that end.
May the Lord bless each of you – keep the faith, fight the good fight, and never lose sight of our Good Shepherd!
For one more soul to be set free through the power and might of Jesus Christ…Juli
That’s right – Jonah had the hissy fit about the vine.
Job had the very “helpful” friends sniffing out his sin as the source of his great suffering.
Stunned,
Thank you for your kind thoughts. Our situation happened years ago. We of course, had to walk through forgiveness and healing, but learned incredible lessons on both sides. In hind sight, we can now “thank and praise HIM” for it, as it caused us to draw ever so close to HIM.
I think the most imporant thing we learned was that when we have our eyes, confidence and hope in man, we will ALWAYS be disappointed. Thank goodness my husband even then kept reinforcing to the family that “the rejection of man” is much preferred over the “separation from Jesus” Therefore, as long as we kept our eyes on HIM, there was hope and HIS promises to deliver us from our heartache. AND, that HE did.
At times I felt as though I was banging my head against a brick wall, because I couldn’t fathom how so many people couldn’t see the truth. I wanted to shake shoulders until heads popped off, screming inside of me “HOW STUPID ARE YOU?” My sweet husband, the stable, calm one, kept telling me to look up and not out, that truth was in the Word of God , NOT MAN’S MOUTH, and above all; to keep my eye on the prize and run the race set before us – TO GLORIFY HIM IN ALL WE DO- SOOOO.. as I kept my eyes on HIM, let HIS word instruct me, and daily asked that others would see JESUS in me, the pain began to subside and eventually leave.
You see, the turmoil we went through, was actually used by HIM to draw us closer to HIM. Now, knowing what I know, I praise and thank HIM that HE allowed me to go through that time in my life. I guess that is what I have been trying to say here. THERE IS HOPE, HE will heal and restore. I pray that daily for all here.. p.s. I will take a hug anytime..
It’s been a long weekend, y’all.
Jonah…duh.
HowDee! Ya’All,
Gotta love it!
I thinks we’se all been in da belly of da whale here ta-day!!! don’t cha think?
Whew!,
We’se don’t want ta drive kind Ole PK ta drink’in dat KoolAid, ya know?
I’ze juz been hang’in by dis here water cooler, keep’in ma widdle head down.
>Geees<
I also got’s dis sweet, fresh baked Limon Marangue Pie here under da table soz it won’t get throwed in da “confusion”… (it’z ma favorite, ya know…)
Hay dis ain’t no paint ball? right?
Heya dat reminds me of somethin I reads:
In thee, O LORD, do I put my trust: let me never be put to confusion.
and
The city of confusion is broken down: every house is shut up, that no man may come in. (Ops!)
and
For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
lastly
For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work. (Woops!)
***
Don’t mind me, I’ze under da table here next to da water cooler, thak-you,
…Wit my sweet, fresh baked Limon Marangue Pie, …offfffff course!
Gotta an some “extra” forks if’in ya’All wantz some…
I’ze juz sing’in dis here toon:
“Tous grêlent le Roi Jésus !” , “Tous grêlent le Roi Jésus !” , “Tous grêlent le Roi Jésus !”…. (1)
Gotz ta love ya all, …cuz Jesus done sazz so!
…Ware’s ma fork?
Le Sopy!
*******
Note: (1) [translation] – “All hail King Jesus!”
RT – no worries! not jumping on you, just thinking about Job’s three friends.
SInce there have been some requests for a “retake” on an earlier quiz, here’s that earlier quiz (with some additional clarification in BOLD).
The Quizzler has been Taking Note (this was a hint) of some interesting developments here at the Refuge……….
Seems like there is a very purposeful agenda being put forth by some of the newer posters (not PK).
Quiz time…………………..
Identify which of the following activities are being pursued by these posters.
A) Attempted alienation of long-time posters
B) Pandering to the site hosts
C) Subtle bullying cloaked in false righteousness
D) Divisiveness
E) Blatant attempt to hijack and steer the discussion away from polity
F) Same old SGM preaching
G) All of the above
Did you answer G ? Go to the head of the class.
For extra credit……….name the university from which Jeff Purswell is getting his PHD.
You’re right Quizzler…G
It seems to be working also.
The Quizzler said,
“For extra credit……….name the university from which Jeff Purswell is getting his PHD.”
Here’s the answer, which can easily be found on the SGM website (see link below).
He (Jeff) is currently pursuing a Ph.D. in New Testament Studies from The Catholic University of America.
http://www.sovereigngraceminis.....llBio.aspx
Personally, I find this very puzzling!!!
I assume that everyone reading here knows who Jeff Purswell is. Here’s his position as stated on the SGM website:
Jeff Purswell
Dean of the Pastors College
Sovereign Grace Ministries
Gaithersburg, Maryland
O Clever Quizzler,
Jeff Purswell is getting his PhD from Catholic University.
For what it’s worth, in the interest of the truth, every implication of your quiz is far from the mark (at least as it relates to this not-very-subtly identified poster).
Not even close. (At any point A-G)
Now I realize that you don’t know my story or the price I’ve paid for being the opposite of your description, but even a brief glimpse of my few past posts here and at Survivor would make this overwhelmingly clear. Oh well, truth is usually the first victim of clever speculation and lots of people find “straw men” a lot easier to take pot-shots at than real ones.
HowDee! Ya’All,
PK,
Gotta love ya, Man!
“Take two aspirin & start a new post in the morning!”
Thanks for being here, kind Sir.
Thats reminds me of somthin I reads;
If’N any man is in Christ…
Peace.
(where’s ma fly swatter?)
Sopwith
P.S. Ya’All lost ya chance for a yummy piece of ma pie! –Boy are my fingers sticky!
he he
Dearest Saints,
) from that part of the blog, because better minds are called to be there, bigger minds than this little tweety-bird possesses. My husband (who keeps his tender eye on me) is in full agreement with this arrangement.
I have witnessed something very beautiful, this week.
People here whom I consider friends, have suffered a terrible misunderstanding, disagreement…whichever word fits best. We could not, did not understand each other, no matter how we expressed ourselves. We hurt each other, even unintentionally, and we got frustrated.
But love won.
Love was big enough to bring us back together. The discord that comes in every friendship did not subdue love. Trust was lost, and then found again. What threatened to divide, only deepened our respect for one another.
There was no shunning.
No one was disciplined.
We didn’t avoid each other (I flew away for a moment in my frustration and grief, but understanding came through God’s peace, and a good friend who gave me perspective).
Love has won.
For my part in what has seemed to be a giant misunderstanding, I ask for pardon.
PK, forgive me. I was so intent on explaining what I was seeing, that I did not see how it effected you. That was bad form. I am sorry.
Jim and Carole, you continue to be my heroes.
Joel, I still don’t know how I offended but, what the heck…forgive me, too?
Let this be a place of safety for all brethren. Let it be a place where we can express our hearts and ideas, search the scriptures, and reason together in the Lord.
Let this be a haven for both the wounded and the strong, as well as a place to find the Lord’s heart on grace for His children.
Let it be a place where both those in SGM and those outside of it mingle with love and gentleness for each other, regardless of our differences.
Let it all be to lead us to Jesus, to our Elder Brother who unites us, that we may be one in the Spirit, even when our thoughts conflict.
Love has won today. Let Him win tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow.
Some things have happened behind the scenes that show me PK’s heart, as well as Jim and Carole’s. Though we misunderstood each other at first, it seems that we all do desire the same thing: a Refuge for the dismembered, and a place of reform where reasonable discussion can go on.
I will, with PK’s permission, hang my cage over at the “My Story” and “Moving On” section of this blog. There, no one is allowed to slam, berate, or attack any who need to share their stories, any who need help in understanding what has happened to them. Feelings can be shared without fear of recrimination from the drive-bys, which is what Jim set those places up for.
I am removing myself from the discussions on polity, etc. The Lord has revealed in a stunning way that I am “released” (sorry folks, couldn’t resist
For all those I might have influenced to question what is happening on the Refuge: be at peace. Continue to use your own discernment, but know that there is a happy medium for us all to fulfill our reasons for being here. We can all work together, because there is a safe place for the hurting, and for SGM members who fear they will be “stoned” if they come on the blog. Believe me,the desire to stone ANYONE has never been in my heart. Sure, I threw some bird seed here and there, when I thought it necessary, but I now reserve my seeds for eating alone (and I DO feed the poor kitty in my bird cage. He just isn’t allowed to roam freely, anymore!). So speak out, everyone. Let’s offer refuge and seek for reform, each to our own calling!
With love to all the brethren whom I will meet someday in heaven, Canary
Canary,
That was beautiful.
Thank you!
Awwwww, Canary!
I love you dearly…
As I’ve already told you, all families have their misunderstandings and squabbles… but we always work it through, and come out on the other side much stronger! You, my dear, are MY hero! 
Jim,
No, thank YOU. Protestant Knight, I’ve got your back on MY STORY and MOVING ON, to help in any way that I can.
Carole,
Aw, you’re going to make me cry. Group hug?????
That’s what I’m talkin’ ’bout, Canary!
Your love and care for others (me included on that list!) is needed here! It would not be the same without you and your hugs!
Yes, well, being a canary, I shall call my hugs “wing cuddles”. Hee-hee.
I also apologize I haven’t been on the blog much the past two days… promise I haven’t been pouting. It’s been CRAZY as far as personal stuff. I’ll be on soon.
Psalm 133
PK,
:)
Everyone:
My good friend, Juli, is serving the Lord in some areas that will keep her real busy, but I know she will also share her heart with others at My Story if she has a chance. She was instrumental in helping me to see both sides of the fence. I want to publicly acknowledge her invaluable help. What a wise woman she is! Big wing cuddles to you, Juli!
Jim,
Excellent verse. Thank you.
Quizzlers said: Seems like there is a very purposeful agenda being put forth by some of the newer posters (not PK).
Maybe some of the “newer posters” did not use their usual name to state their view but wanted to state their opinion. Maybe they were quite surprised at the very hostile level of attack and efforts at control. I am glad reconciliation has taken place. That is always good. I am not trying to debate or stir things up again but just want to state an answer since I might appear to be a new poster.
I hope those on the fence weren’t turned away by the behavior of a few, which I realize is forgiven, forgotten and everyone who is still here is moving on.
When Jim asked: If we see genuine reform within sgm, will we rejoice? I thought of course!! God would want reform and reconciliation, wouldn’t he? I want his agenda. I would be quite glad. I know for a fact, many in SGM are hurt by the views posted here and don’t understand it. I have prayed for reform for many years and I think it would be wonderful. Wonderful.
Blogs are difficult. I have been offended by things said to me so I know it is so easy to be casual and have no idea how someone could be hurting from a comment. Intended or unintended.
I still don’t understand the part about the apostolic directive. I read it too. Is any part of that responded to by the apostles or is it written TO the apostles. I’d like to understand that better. Thanks
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:::: peeking out from the closet & tryin’ to figure out what is going on ::::
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:/
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>sigh<
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Anyone or everyone,
Check out this article I found online. Not sure if I agree with everything in it, but it definitely has some very interesting things to say about shepherding and other features of modern church government.
http://www.crossroad.to/articl.....erding.htm
Canary, Girl, you’re my hero.
Stunned,
Aw shucks, I’ve never been anyone’s hero, before. Except maybe to my seven dogs. They treat me like royalty (but I do all the work, cleaning up messes, feeding, brushing…wait, I treat THEM like royalty…sheesh). Stunned, keep looking up!
Canary, sister, on that day, when we stand before Him, I think there will be a lot of people pushing forward to get to tell our King all you’ve done to point us to Him, to fold us in your arms/wings and to care for us with the same love that He cared for you. What a great day that will be.
Stunned,
Well, if that is true, then I will be on the other side of Jesus with alot of other people, trying to get to Him to say how brave and wonderful all you guys have been to come on here and share your hearts, so that others could find Him through all the pain. If you and others weren’t here, sharing your experiences, I don’t think reform would be possible.
Well done Wanda and Taking Note; you both get extra credit for identifying Catholic University of America as Jeff Purswell’s choice of academic institutions. Wanda also gets additional bonus points for citing the source of her answer http://www.sovereigngraceminis…..llBio.aspx and correctly identifying Mr. Purswell’s position as the Dean of the Pastors College at SGM.
She gets even more bonus points for discerning that it is very puzzling.
The Quizzler also wonders why, with all the outstanding institutions of higher learning around here why Mr. Purswell chose Catholic University?
Upon searching out Catholic U’s Mission Statement and Goals http://www.cua.edu/mission/ the Quizzler finds it to be a bit concerning. Here’s an excerpt………….
“………The university recognizes that its distinctive character ultimately
depends on the intellectual and moral quality of its members. To create
an environment that is intellectually stimulating and characterized by
the generosity and mutual support required for collegial life and
personal growth, the university seeks men and women who are not only
professionally competent but who also can contribute to its Catholic,
moral and cultural milieu. The university seeks to preserve its
tradition of collegial governance, fostering a climate within which all
members of the university community have sufficient opportunities to
influence deliberation and choice.
Though a research and teaching institution, the university recognizes
that it is part of a larger community to which it has certain
obligations consistent with its character. Its presence in the nation’s
capital and its unique relationship with the Catholic Church in America
provide it with opportunities for influencing the resolution of the
crucial issues of our time. In providing information and criteria by
which public policy is shaped and measured, the university seeks to be
of special service to the nation. Similarly, it seeks to be of service
to the Church, not only through the preparation of clergy and other
leaders for specific roles in the Church, but also through factual
investigations and discussions of principles which influence policy.”
now here’s the question…………….
Do we influence our environment or does our environment influence us?
Scripture speaks clearly of this. The Apostle Paul (a TRUE Apostle) refered to influence in his first letter to the Corinthians (I Corinthians 15:33) “Do not be deceived: Bad company ruins good morals.”
so……………
Will Mr. Purswell be influenced by the environment at Catholic U?
If so, will that influence in turn have an impact on SGM polity which will in turn be taught to all the up-and-coming young future pastors throughout SGM?
So many questions, so little time………..
A Good and Interesting Question, Mr. Quizzler.
Point of interest – many worthy people, with solid spiritual and theological foundations to protect them, have intentionally chosen to enter educational institutions with high academic standards but with theological heritages that would challenge their core convictions and require that they give full defense to their persuasions without being allowed to “cheat” in a fully like-minded setting. They believed that their convictions and their ability to defend them with integrity and clarity would be strengthened rather than weakened by being given no mercy in the requirement to defend their perspectives.
Among these are John Piper, (doctoral work in New Testament Studies at the University of Munich, Munich, West Germany) R.C. Sproul, (the Free University of Amsterdam) C.S. Lewis, (whose whole education and vocation, before and after conversion were occupied in secular contexts like Oxford and Cambridge) and highly respected teachers of my own personal history who chose, for example, a Catholic university (Fordam) to study Reformation history, a Dispensational Seminary (Dallas) as a reformed and covenant- oriented theologian, and a secular University (Boston University) to study philosophy and theology.
Those of these men that I have heard speak of these choices – among both the well known and the barely known – would strongly profess to the great benefit that came from entering challenging environments that would require them to thoroughly understand their own beliefs and better be able to articulate and defend them.
I myself came out of Bible College/Seminary environments, that would have differed with my convictions at a number of points, far better equipped both to understand those who differ with me and to defend my own perspectives with relevance and precision. I am far less likely to make “straw-men” of those who disagree with me, because I understand their perspective and far more likely to make an effective case for my own convictions because I have needed to defend them “against the wind” so to speak.
More to the present point – I have a number of vital differences of conviction and perspective with Jeff Purswell and see a number of parallels between Roman Catholic and SGM church government and polity, but I am (for myself) fully persuaded that Mr. Purswell has no Roman Catholic leanings (or background) and that he will emerge from Catholic University of America even less “Catholic” than he entered it.
He is a man who is unlikely to be affected by my differences with him for sure
, but I also am quite sure that he will not be theologically diluted or compromised by a contrary point of view in the University atmosphere of his doctoral studies either.
For what it’s worth, I also believe that the Roman Catholic background (nominal and in their youth) of C.J. Mahaney and others in SGM has little or no influence on them. They are passionately protestant and (at the same time) pragmatically (rather than “Catholically”) given to a hierarchical, authoritarian, and nearly papal church polity.
Just thoughts. I really like your question and think it is a very interesting and insightful one to ask and explore.
Taking Note
Why do you assume that The Quizzler is a MR. ?
You make a good point, Quizzler.
I was simply being playful in my words, but it is funny how we have some intuitive opinion of the gender of fellow-posters with gender-neutral screen names. Several folks here have called me “he” or “him” without me ever indicating one way or the other.
Forgive me for my presumption.
Please consider the following about Catholic University:
The University specifically provides that “theologians” in the University are “expected to give assent to the teachings of the magisterium in keeping with the various degrees of assent that are called for by authoritative teaching.”[9] It should be noted that the Catholic University of America does not offer general studies in theology. Instead it offers doctorates in historical theology and systematic theology, the latter of which “undertakes the task of a comprehensive and synthetic understanding of the Christian faith as mediated through the Scriptures and the Catholic Tradition and as interpreted by the conciliar and papal magisterium [10] In addition it offers ecclesiastical degrees (i.e., licensees to teach Catholic Theology) in Liturgical Studies and Sacramental Theology, Moral Theology/Ethics, and Historical and Systematic Theology [11] In order to teach theology at The Catholic University of America, one must be licensed to teach Catholic Theology by the Vatican
With the above in mind, WHY IN THE WORLD did Jeff Purswell, the “Dean” of the “PC” choose Catholic University (of all the schools such a “coveted intellectual” would be drawn to?-Has he signed their Covenant?)
I’ve been pounding this drum for a year: the Catholic church’s polity is the model for SGM’s, since they essentially ‘sprang’ from the mind of two non-educated Catholics!
I don’t mean this disrespectfully, or in a demeaning way, but the two of them only knew Catholic polity–so structured their church in the same way: Pope, cardinals, bishops, priests.
Reformed Teacher: You are right on! The roots of SGM are definitely Catholic. The fruit (wrong doctrine, incorrect interpretation of Scripture, focus on Jesus on the Cross and suffering, control, overly authoritarian, abuse, etc) that has been borne is a direct reflection of the roots.
Hmm…WIF–good point about the Cross and the suffering–I had not thought of that! You are right!
I haven’t noticed this–are there crosses displayed in SGM churches?
When we first did the polity series, my opinion was-you’re clearly episcopal, just admit it.
I was wrong, as SGM’s polity cannot be defined. They stand completely alone in this regard.
In the US, the head of the episcopal church is elected for a defined term by a a simple majority of bishops. The current leader ran against 6 other candidates and won by 1 vote. I think 180 bishops voted.
The RC church elects their pope with a 2/3rds majority, again with approximately 180 bishops voting. I think the exact number with the current pope was 183.
CJ is self-appointed, which looks like a monarchy to me.
Their polity is clearly undefined, and their attempt at self definition (the canonical polity statement) was an unfortunate disaster.
An honest statement from SGM would say-”We stand alone. We stand against over 2000 years of church history and have decided to do this our way”.
The proof text Scripture references and out of context quotes just made them look foolish.
Hey, the twelfth disciple to replace Judas was decided by lots…isn’t that sorta funny? It’s like flipping a coin at a football game! I guess they trusted the Holy Spirit to make the bet go the way He wanted. That probably wouldn’t go over well, today.
The proof text Scripture references and out of context quotes just made them look foolish.
Like trying to fit a square peg into a round hole – quite ridiculous. I have to ask again, don’t these guys listen to God in any way? Puzzling…
Jim, monarchs are not self-appointed. They are born into the role.
Dictators, OTOH, are self-appointed. And they get to make all the rules. Or change the rules as often as they wish. It’s their way or “off with his head.” Reminds me of so many refugee and survivor stories.
Well…
It really is remarkable, isn’t it, Jim, that SGM doesn’t even have a coherent explanation of their polity. They don’t even try to offer one.
Every significant movement of history has recognized the need for some recognizing and affirming authority to establish and maintain church leadership and government (with the exception of an odd mix of independent “apostolic” movements, millennial communes, and cults).
Every major movement has either 1.) claimed apostolic succession in some form (and even then used plurality votes and such to identify and select leaders), or 2.) recognized that biblical apostolic authority was no longer available and looked to congregational or movement-wide consensus in reliably identifying faithful, qualified leadership.
Even the Puritans with their strong view of leadership (and their tendency to overuse authority at times) recognized that they needed to identify a locus of authority (having thrown off RC apostolic succession) and became the founding congregationalists of their time. They didn’t apply a “democratic” 51% votes rule the church approach, but they knew that elders and deacons would have no meaningful, sustainable, and accountable authority without broad support of the body of Christ. Their experiment had many flaws, but at least there was an attempt at applying biblical principle in the absence of NT apostolic authority.
Originally, CJ, Larry and other leaders probably had a “congregational” trust and recognition sufficient to be appropriately establishing and leading a church in Maryland, but when the addition of further leaders, new leaders for church plants, etc. was needed it required self-appointed apostolic authority and began a pattern of giving little or no voice to the “gathering of believers”.
It is a pragmatically easy paradigm and it can carry on for some time on the force of personality, manipulation, and pure chutzpah; but it is by nature a self-defeating approach. Credibility fades and instinctive trust declines in the folks under such a system when pastoral leadership and personal “cover” becomes layers of unfamiliar and untested pastoral and “apostolic” care and the decisions that shape it all become less transparent, more arbitrary-looking, and completely disconnected from the proven trust and recognition of those being governed.
Many SG people are being led (pastorally & apostolically) by people they simply don’t know. They have no seasoned, relational basis to know if their leaders’ hearts, lives, families, and convictions are worthy of their devotion and imitation (and no recourse if they discover over time that the answer to that question is “no”).
Not all monarchs are born to the throne–many schemed, seized, or slaughtered their way to the throne. SGM is closer to a dictatorship or an oligarchy–rule by a few people (or families–hence the legacy pastors).
Acme, At the Abbey we have noticed that “some are born to greatness, some achieve greatness, and some have greatness thrust upon them” and seemly overlooked by brother Shakespeare, some take greatness upon themselves
Watch for things to break losseat the Sovereign Grace Church in Gilbert, Arizona as discussions of lay leadership unfold and God uses the economy to drive home His message.
Romans 8:28 And we know that to them that love God all things work together for good, even to them that are called according to his purpose.
Cadvael-welcome back.
My little Abbey is praying for the good people of Gilbert.
It will be interesting to see how this plays out…
Indeed brother Jim! The Gilbert Church will either implode or explode in revival. Let us believe for revival. Watch for the IPOD posting of the Sunday March 8th service on the Sovereign Grace Church Gilbert website. The Lay minister received a standing ovation although from our vantage point it appeared that the pastoral team was very slow to rise.