Protestant Knight is indeed alive and well. He posted a comment, but given his status here, I’ve made it a post.
UPDATED by PK March 14th, 2009
Hi Folks:
My head is spinning from trying to catch up here. I’ve come out on this side of a big medical hurdle (still battling a few more, but they are hopscotch compared to the big one), so unfortunately I’ve left Jim out there alone during all of this excitement.
I have to start off by saying I’m just extremely saddened, but at the same time relieved. The type of upheaval going on in SGM is the result of sin being exposed. While initially it may be disgusting to some and hopeful to others, it can provide new hope. The big question is how leaders and our hearts will respond to it over the long haul.
A few comments:
In regard to the Gilbert Church, I know many of the individuals involved there; I’ve known a lot of them most of my life, in fact. My prayers are with them wholeheartedly as this situation is sorted out.
The heartbreaking news from the churches back east: again, my prayers are with them wholeheartedly, particularly those families and individuals that have been hurt on both sides of the fence.
Everyone: God is not looking away; I know there is a temptation to want swift vindication, as I did when I first read about these stories. I would just like to get back to the business of praying for Him to transform all of us rather than take a torch to any efforts toward reconciliation, repentance, and reform.
~pk
Sorry PK-you can’t announce your resurrection in the form a comment that could become buried.
It is GREAT to hear from you.
PK!!!
Welcome back! We’ve missed you!
So glad to hear that the medical issues are somewhat behind you now… I hope the recovery and “few more hurdles” will be a cake walk for you… we are praying for complete recovery and restored health.
(Please give a hearty “hello” and all our best to your lovely wife, Protestant Dame!
PK,
Thanks for the update. A lot of us were worried about your “disappearance”. I’m sorry you went through so much, and am glad to hear you are on the mend. I know the Lord was with you, and taught you much through your trial. There is nothing like being physically vulnerable to put us into special place with the Lord. There is no way we can come out of it unchanged! Praying for you today!
PK, being sick stinks. I hope it ends soon.
So glad to hear the Lord has brought great hope and faith in this time, though. I hope He has been as good to your wife, too. Sorry to hear about you not having the housing situation you would like. i don’t know if this is any comfort or not but in case it is, I’ll share it with you. I lost my home of 20+ years at a sheriff’s sale in August. It isn’t easy, but it isn’t the most awful thing, either. Anyway, I figured I’d share, because I didnt’ want you to feel as if you were alone in this time of housing struggles, at least among those of us here on this board. I’ve been broke during prosperous times and during bad times. I have to admit, it’s a little easier being broke when every one else is, too. At least for me. So I was hoping this might make whatever you are experiencing, a little better.
PK – I am greatly encouraged by your return. I am newer to this board than many and have not “met” you prior to now. Welcome back. I am also greatly encouraged by your knowledge of the Gilbert church and the hope that you seem to have for change there. I, personally, have not had that hope for the Gilbert church, but it is encouraging to know that you do. I know that nothing is too beyond God’s healing hand so that was a good reminder to me to have my faith in God for the change and not in what I see.
As you stated, Rich will need to make some decisions on the direction that he takes the Gilbert church, but given the family ties that he has there and the “apostolic” oversight of Steve Shank, I believe he is in a very precarious position to walk out any kind of change, if he were so inclined to do so. For Rich, this may be the battle of his life.
Be Bold said: “For Rich, this may be the battle of his life.”
We need to be in prayer for Rich! I have said to Jim over and over… If there is just one pastor in SGM that would stand up for Truth, and for what is right and good, and other SGM pastors and leaders could/would hear his words, then there has to be hope for SGM.
Maybe Rich is the one…
Stunned,
I’m sorry to hear about your house. I admire your courage, and hope you are doing well today. As you can see from my gravatar, I still haven’t found a new place, after my cage was taken over. Ho-hum. Gilded cages are so hard to locate, even with the low interest rates. Seriously, I hope you have found a new place to settle. These days, we learn to hold everything loosely. I gaurantee, the Lord has moved you for a purpose. Hugs, hugs, hugs!
PK..your return gives me an expectation and surge of faith-energy for some reason - and I sense in your comments a determination, focus, and clarity – coupled with a boldness that is inspiring, to say the least.
I don’t know all you have been through since you have been gone, but I wanted to let you know, that with one short message, I see the fruit of it. And it’s good. I am certainly looking forward to hearing more about what the Lord has shown and taught you.
Thank you brother, good to have you back.
Jim, thanks for letting us know he was back, I still don’t know where he “popped up” on the blog and would have missed it!
PK–it is so good to have you back!! You were very much missed!
C.J. isn’t humble. He’s ZOMG AWESOMELY HUMBLE!!!!!!!1!!!11!!!
Skinner…
Yep! Just ask him…
PK,
My heart soared when I saw you have returned and have seen the other side of your hurdle.
I have been worried about you as have so many others here. I hope you are in good enough health to participate in this board more fully. Please be well and do what it takes to be completely restored to health. I will continue to keep you in prayer.
Stunned, I don’t know how it slipped past my attention, but I am so sorry you lost your home; I can’t imagine the pain of havine the place in which so many memories are made taken away from me. I hope you have found good alternative housing near your campus. I imagine you in a funky artsy loft, but when I need to imagine something, I make it as lovely as I can
“If there is just one pastor in SGM that would stand up for Truth, and for what is right and good, and other SGM pastors and leaders could/would hear his words, then there has to be hope for SGM. ”
Just curious…does anybody know what became of Joe McMullen from Cov Fel in PA? I heard he left, started another church, and took a fair number with him. Where did he end up?
Does anybody know the reasons given publically? I am sure that he would not have ”muddied the water” for the sheep left behind, and been quiet about problems. Was it presented as a doctrinal issue? Anybody know anything? Thanks.
Skinner, pleaes clue me in, what does ZOMG mean?
Canary, thanks for the concern but in my case, the losing of the house was as “good” as it could be. I mean, of all the people who have lost their homes in the US last year, mine was probably the easiest situation. I had left the house, no children to care for, etc. So I was the luckiest one out of all the many. I am in an apartment I adore. Yes, it was the only home my children ever knew and yes, I fought it tooth and nail up to the moment the bank outbid me. (I kept offering to buy it from my ex but he refused. Wanted it to go to sheriff’s sale and destroy my credit, memories, etc even if it meant destroying his credit. Fun guy, eh?) I’ve had my cries over it and it’s not worth worrying about now. I only wanted PK to know he wasn’t the only one of us in… not prime circumstances housing related-edly. But like I said, it was probably the “best” of all sheriff’s sales.
DB, you didn’t miss anything, ole gal. I didn’t tell anyone here. No need to til now as God takes dang good care of me.
Stunned,
It’s internet slang. “Likely an overzealous typo for omg, resulting from the proximity of z to the shift key.” http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/zomg
Danke.
Stunned,
I’m so glad to hear you love your apartment. It must be nice to have space all to yourself. Your faith inspires me.
5yearsinpdi said, “Just curious…does anybody know what became of Joe McMullen from Cov Fel in PA? I heard he left, started another church, and took a fair number with him. Where did he end up?- Does anybody know the reasons given publically? I am sure that he would not have ”muddied the water” for the sheep left behind, and been quiet about problems. Was it presented as a doctrinal issue? Anybody know anything? ”
He left. Started a new church with some other people. Don’t know quite how many people left Cov Fel. Quite a few of my friends went. Don’t worry SGM faithful, I didn’t speak to any of them about my SGM concerns, ever. (Wouldn’t want to be accused of being a cause of why people left. Though, now that I think about it, what do I care what someone accuses me of?) I’ve heard mixed reports about the church. Some are happy to not be in SGM. Others tell me it’s more of the same, just with a different name up top. *shrugs* Don’t know the official reason Cov Fel and he split ways. Just the truer back stories, though since i wasn’t a part of it, I do want to be careful what I share. In fact, I don’t know enough to accurately share so I shant. I do know that they had brought another pastor in a couple of years ago. He was a real minister trained at a real seminary. People supposedly loved his preaching and him. After a year he was asked to step down (wooed him away from another congregation and another state). He and his wife had to start avoiding saying hi to people in the stores because they were trying SOOOO hard not to discuss it. From what I understand they have a great deal of integrity and anythign they had to say MAY have been misconstrued as saying something negative about SGM. Not that they were trying to, but I think their story was so crazy, it wasn’t able to be avoided. Really hurt their family.
Eventually he and Joe and a few other people started the new church with lots of urging from others. I saw Joe’s kids this past year. They all look terrific and even “normal”.
good thing to be able to say about an SGM kid sometimes.
Canary,
I do have a lovely roommate and her fish, Joel, that keep me company.
Stunned,
When I throw in your story of losing your house and what you told me privately, I thank the Lord for revealing Himself out through you. Of all people to step forward–awesomely amazing. Abba, continue to make a way for our sister, as she navigates through some of the slams of life that you obviously are “working together for good.” You are so faithful and unfailing. Why do we get so caught up in the noice of life and so often miss you right in the midst of our day?
Gratefully Dis…
Stunned is one of the most amazing women I know!
The way her love for God and her faith shines through despite what life has thrown her way… inspiring and just amazing!
(I love you, Stunned!)
Yes, it is amazing how God develops godly character, and even without SGM conferences and seminars. He can make any jar of clay into a container of Himself, spilling out HIMSELF to all around. We are the “clothes” God wears on our Earth!
I know oodles of people who have left Cf. OOdles, I say. (nice vague term.)
And I’ve been out of the loop for a long time.
I believe Stunned is correct as usual with regard to Joe McMullen. I’m glad his kiddos are normal; that is always cause for rejoicing considering the childhood to be had when your parents are drinking the proverbial kool aid.
PK, I know what its like to be sick, I’ve been going through my own private hell for the past year and half. I haven’t discussed it but it’s serious and has sort of rocked my faith, but God is good and has always taken care of my family and me and continues to amaze me.
Stunned, don’t worry, I’m not dropping dead or anything dramatic, I’m just not really open about it.
Anyway, I’ll be praying about your housing as well, PK, again, I haven’t discussed this here before now, but our economy is frightening. We were at Killington on New Year’s and I remember looking out at a black diamond (we had a really nice house,) and told dh that we were in for a rough ride (I remember distinctly because I sort of envisioned it like it would be comparable to accidentally blundering onto that double diamond instead of my usual blue squares or green circles.) We’ll all see ourselves to the other side of it with God’s help, but I really hope I personally learn the lessons that are there to be learned through this (I think it has a lot to do with where our hearts are and our treasure and the verses about storing up our wealth in places that cannot be touched by Newton’s Second Law of thermodynamics.
Five Years:
Here is the link to Joe Mcmullen’s church
http://www.enjoyinggrace.org/
Another pastor at Covfel (Dan Shorey) went with him. Someone posted here awhile ago that Joe’s departure caused quite a stir at Covfel. He was the number two pastor in that church for a long time so I guesss it would cause a few heads to turn.
I have no idea what the facts were surrounding his departure. I might surmise that he probably saw through some of the flim flam and decided enough was enough.
I wish people would do more than just have thier heads spin when others leave – my prayer is it would cause them to ask questions – if a person doesn’t say anything about why they leave, they have their reasons.
But it seems to not work well either way – if oyu say why, you are called deceived, prideful, etc…but if you walk out quietly, then people talk ABOUT it but so few come directly to you to ask.
If people are shocked about people leaving, then they should go to THEM to ask why, not the pastors..cause the pastors will certainly fill in the blanks for them.
former and stunned…..
Thanks! Interesting link. I’m glad it all worked out for them. Joe was a down to earth good guy and he probably was no longer able to maintain the blind submission required.
Don Shorey and his family departed from the pastoral team of Covenant Fellowship Church and involvement with SGM in November of 2006.
Joe McMullin and his family remained at CFC until August of 2007, although he had not served on the pastoral team for the previous year and a half.
As I understand it, these men and their families left CFC for a range of matters of conscience and conviction relating to church leadership, qualification, and authority; ministry life; and vision for the gospel and the Christian life; etc. Obviously, the details of these things and the personal journeys that each of these families have traveled would be their own stories to tell.
Publicly, the leadership of CFC gave little explanation for Joe’s departure from the pastoral team (after 15+ years) and Don’s departure was described as relating to differences on “polity” and “the doctrine of sin.”
For the last year and a half, Don and Joe have been serving together as the pastors of Grace Community Church in Newtown Square, PA.
Thanks Update. Sound’s like Don’s my kind of guy.
PK,
I know I’m a little late here, but it is good to “see” you back. Wish we could lessen your and PD’s struggles and trials. We’ll keep you in our prayers. Grace to you!
[insert sound of crickets]
Taking Note – hahaha…yeah, it gets quiet around here sometimes…it’s good though. Sometimes we need a rest, it ebbs and flows you know?
Even soldiers need a break – and I have to say I am enjoying the retreat of the attackers as of late..I’m sure they are just regrouping, planning, discussing, (a.k.a. gossip and slander by chance??) etc..but all the while, people here are healing up, getting stronger, and pressing on..
Onward Christian Soldiers! (great, now I have that song in my head!)
Interesting news article today….
Doctors across the country are forcing their patients to sign waivers giving up their right to post comments and reviews about them online, a move experts say is unethical and should be prohibited.
Consumer-oriented Web sites like RateMDs and Vitals.com give Web users a chance to recommend and review physicians and hospitals nationwide. But some doctors now are telling their patients to censor themselves — or find another physician.
“This is just the guild trying to protect itself from accountability to those it serves. That’s not professional behavior — this is self-interested behavior,” said Laurence McCullough, professor of medical ethics at Baylor College of Medicine.
“And as a rule, when a doctor acts primarily out of self-interest, it’s ethically suspect.”
Hmmmm.
Seeking-
Thanks for posting-very interesting correlation. Maybe the membership covenant will be amended…
Jim said, “Maybe the membership covenant will be amended…”
Aha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.
Jim, you give me just the laugh I need mid-morning. I suspect you either have more faith in the men at SGM than I have, or you were joking around. Either way, you gave me a good chuckle.
Update:
Thanks for the information on Don Shorey. It is amazing that an SGM pastor actually resigned because of differences over polity. There may be hope yet that others will have similar arousals in their consciences. This is an excellent confirmation of the work done on and views expressed on this blog. I guess good things do come from blogging in your underwear. Please take note Mr. Simmons.
To the extent that he is able to do so, PK should continue to make the case that SGM’s polity is deeply flawed.
PK – I am intrigued by the fact that you know many of the people mentioned from the Gilbert church, particularly that you’ve known Rich for so many years. I wondered if you would share whether you were ever a member of the Gilbert church, and if so, when. I am only asking because I am curious if I would know you or your family. I’m encouraged that you have hope for SGM, as well as for Rich.
Be Bold,
I still have that open invitation for you.
I still ask that you be bold enough to call me and meet with me.
Matthew
Matthew,
Be Bold has their reasons for not wanting to meet with you. I’ve heard them, and they are reasonable.
I’d drop it.
Be Bold,
Always good when we have hope – and especially in the recent wake of many churches having upheavals..keep looking to Christ to give you that hope as He leads you in His peace, joy, and righteousness!
Glad you are here..J
Be Bold:
For many reasons I cannot answer your questions, and apologies for that.
~pk
I completely understand. Would you be willing to email me privately if Jim gave you my email?
PK, REALLY REALLY glad to have you back…although, as Jim has pointed out more than once, not more than he is!
Looking forward to hearing what the Lord has been stirring up in you these past several weeks..
Jim and Be Bold,
Matthew 18 15-16
“If your brother sins against you. go and tell his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have a brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two bothers along with you that every charge maybe established by the evidence of two or three witnesses.
Be Bold has made statements and opinions voiced as truth.
If these charges are real he needs to take these to his brother.
All I am is a witness.
This is not a parable, this is what Christ has told us to do within the Church and as a body of believers.
So Be Bold enough to follow the Christ’s word to you and his word to us.
This is reasonable.
Matthew,
You think that you know you BB is. You are incorrect.
You have no idea what they have or have not said to their brother.
Thank you Jim.
Matthew – I believe that I asserted two, and only two, opinions in my comment that you are referring to. And, I noted each as being my opinion. The other statements are fact. I stand by that and I challenge you to disagree with any of the facts that I recounted. I issued the same challenge previously, but you did not respond. I do not have any offense against you personally, so I’m not sure why you are referring to Matthew 18 in this particular case.
Jim,
In either case my invitation is still open.
The charges that Be Bold has posted must be addressed one way or another.
Do you think that this blog is the best format for addressing issues within the Church? Or should they not be addressed as Christ outlined in his word to us?
PK-
Glad to hear you are doing better-thanks for checking in with us. I miss your thoughts on the blog….
Jim and Be Bold,
What I am talking about are the charges that are in the ” More on Shankville” Feb 7th, 2009.
I do not believe that he has taken these to his brother.
Posting here is not what the word of God first tells us to do as brothers in Christ.
It tells us to take it to them personally.
I have a obligation knowing that a brother is offended with another brother and making sure that Matthew 18 15-16 is addressed in the proper way.
We all have that obligation.
Dear Matthew,
Of course we are to follow Christ’s instructions for addressing issues and in many if not most of the cases on these blogs, folks have done that. The Scriptures also tell us, “And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them.” (Ephesians 5:11) There has been so much abuse, wrong doctrine, wrong teaching, control and manipulation, cover-ups, mishandling of funds and more by the pastors and “apostles” throughout SGM churches that God is now saying ENOUGH. We are to expose the unfruitful works of darkness and God is using the blogs to do just that. We are blowing the trumpet, Ezekiel 33:1-7, so that others will not be hurt and misled. We want the leaders to repent and for the movement to be changed from the foundation up. SGM must turn back to Jesus Christ and worship Him and not men nor a movement. I do not know where SGM got off or when, were they always off, I do not know. What I do know is that they are way off now. A major correction must take place within the whole movement starting with the top.
Matthew, you are truly in a difficult situation because of your family connections and my heart goes out to you. For years, I would have been one of SGM’s most loyal members, however, God has opened my eyes to the truth of the movement and I am so very thankful. Terrible, ungodly things have gone on in this movement and people must know. I have heard from friends that Rich is a man who truly loves Jesus Christ. For that I am thankful, however, no man is a pastor within SGM unless he has submitted to their authority and their way of thinking. It just will not happen that a man can truly think for himself and have differing opinions. If that were the case, he would not be a pastor.
Mathew
I find this funny how people in SGM always talk about the Mathew 18 process(an going to your brother in private) when we see examples like Mahaney bashing Belichick (Patriots Coach) for walking out before the Super Bowl was over. Shouldn’t he have gone to this person in private? Mahaney certainly does one thing but then teaches something else. Isn’t there a contradiction here?
I guess you haven’t read yet where a lot of us have already tried to going to leadership with our concerns to only be brushed off? Usually the response is that the SGM leaders turns things around and claims there must be some “sin issues” that the member has bringing the observation. With this in mind I am not sure what else you suggest we do?
I guess you haven’t read Jim’s story and the local SGM Church’s refusal to even bring in mediation?
Matthew,
Have you heard about the by-invitation-only meeting that “apostle” Gene and the pastors at SGCC had on Dec. 21? ”Apostle” Gene slandered and smeared the names of the “3 couples” and asked the 60+ people there to pray for their repentance. Gene had thanked the “3 couples” for bringing issues forward prior to this meeting. Neither he nor the pastors ever indicated in any way that the “3 couples” had sinned. So, was Matthew 18 followed in this process? Not at all. None, zero, nada. Also, a letter went out from the 3 finance guys and one by the sr. pastor to the whole congregation about the “3 couples” the same night as the by-invitation-only meeting. Had the 3 finance guys gone to the “3 couples” according to Matthew 18 prior to going to the whole church? Did the sr. pastor? Not at all. In no way, at no time. Did any of them ask for forgiveness to the church at the family meeting on Jan. 25 for this. Nope!
These are the leaders at SGCC under the leadership of SGM. What does that say to you?
Great point Steve. SGM use Matt 18 as a tool of control.
Please consider D.A. Carson’s thoughts on this Matthew 18 section:
18:10–14 Pastoral concern (cf. Lk. 15:3–7). The parable of the wandering sheep shows the pastoral concern of your Father in heaven for his little ones (14). But v 10 shows that it was told as a model for the concern we should also have for each other, as little ones. The temptation to look down on less confident or ‘successful’ fellow-disciples, and therefore to ignore their pastoral needs, shows an attitude out of tune with God’s concern.
In Luke’s parable the sheep was already ‘lost’; the focus there is on reaching out to outsiders rather than, as here, on pastoral care for disciples in danger.
8:15–20 ‘If your brother sins’. These verses explain how the principle of vs 10–14 should work out in practice. They are addressed to you (singular), the individual disciple who is aware of his fellow-disciple’s sin and accepts (as vs 10–14 demand) that it is his responsibility to do something about it. The words AGAINST YOU(15) were probably not part of the original text and unhelpfully restrict the scope. Response to personal injury will come into focus in vs 21–35 here it is the brother’s danger, not any effect of his sin on me personally, which is at issue.
The aim must be to win your brother over, restoration, not punishment. To that end, the minimum of publicity must be used. The erring brother must be approached alone or at most with one or two others. Only if that fails is it necessary to involve the church (the local congregation); it is to be expected that the offender will listen to the united conviction of his fellow-disciples. If he does not, the only course open remains a severing of fellowship, though presumably still with the hope that this will jolt him into repentance and restoration.
cf. compare
Carson, D. A. (1994). New Bible commentary : 21st century edition. Rev. ed. of: The new Bible commentary. 3rd ed. / edited by D. Guthrie, J.A. Motyer. 1970. (4th ed.) (Mt 18:10-15). Leicester, England; Downers Grove, Ill., USA: Inter-Varsity Press.
Do you see the huge change of emphasis on this portion of scripture that can so easily be used by authoritative types to control any challenges to their oppression? They use this portion of scripture to channel all opposition back to them, so they can turn the “spotlight” right back person that wants to honor God by doing the right thing. They use this tactic to silence legitimate questioning of whatever they decide to do. PLEASE RE-READ Carson’s take on this. Read this portion of scripture without the words “against you” in it (vs 15). Do you see Carson’s point?
Matthew-
Did you make a good faith effort to contact privately, those who you felt were in sin by posting on this blog?
I’m assuming you you emailed Jim first before you confronted his sin by posting?
I’m assuming he did not respond or repent, and then you found a couple of other brothers to gently call him back to repentance?
After Jim did not respond to these brothers and you, you then went public by posting here for all the thousands of folks who check in?
I’m assuming you did this-because this is how many of us tried to confront our leaders or churches before we ever spoke a word in public….
I thank you for all of your input about your experiences with your local Churches.
Be Bold is in my local Church and has not brought these charges to my local leadership. It is a responsibly for us all to follow the word of God in these situations no matter how difficult or how fearful we maybe.
I understand this is a blog but first and foremost Be Bold states he is a “believer”, if he is a believer, what has been outlined in his charges here on this blog need to be addressed on our local church level first.
On this I think everyone who is a believer will agree.
So again I say….
Be Bold,
I still have that open invitation for you.
I still ask that you be bold enough to call me and meet with me.
Or contact these leaders you have made these charges against and bring these charges to them personally.
Be Bold,
This is not about challenges you previously have put to me.
This is about following the word of God and his instruction to us about these situations.
Matthew
Matthew,
When you and I talked on the phone, you told me you thought you knew who Be Bold was. Again, you were incorrect.
You said-
Or contact these leaders you have made these charges against and bring these charges to them personally.
You have no idea if this has or has not happened.
Really Matthew-leave it alone.
GDI
Thanks for sharing that information. It is helpful.
I am sure Matthew’s biggest problem here is that he still thinks (and may always think) that SGM pastors are sincere when they say they are approachable/teachable and willing to hear and consider anything you bring to them. Unfortunately we have found that not to be the case.
SGM pastors certainly talk a good game and thus one would think they would be approachable. It is only when you start to question something that you may see the other side.
Matthew-
I give you credit for talking to Jim, thanks for doing this. I mean it-I apologize for intimating that you hadn’t…
I do think your appeal to Be Bold is actually harsh in tone and I’m confused as to why your insisting that he meets with you? Are you a pastor at the church he posted about?
just curious…
musicman,
Matthew came on here and asked why this site is not gossip and slander. He did not contact me, I reached out to him.
Just for the record.
Your 12:22 was well said. Different rules apparently apply to “bloggers”….
Matthew – I do have a couple of questions for you. You said, “Be Bold is in my local Church and has not brought these charges to my local leadership.”
How do you know this? Have you spoken with the pastors in regards to these charges that I’ve made? And, did they tell you that no one has brought these things to them? Did they tell you that the charges are untrue?
I have to admit that I find it somewhat unfortunate that you believe that you know who I am. Unfortunate for the poor guy who you are mentally building up a case against. Interesting that if you are convinced that you know who I am, and yet you are likely wrong, that you have possibly sinned against this other brother. Have you speculated with others regarding who you think I am? That would be slander against the person, if, of course, you are incorrect. I hope that you have not gone down that road Matthew. Those are the things that division within the body is made up of. I hope that you have not caused ANY other individual to doubt the character of this alleged “Be Bold” by your speculations.
You also said, “I have a obligation knowing that a brother is offended with another brother and making sure that Matthew 18 15-16 is addressed in the proper way.
We all have that obligation.”
Do you believe that you really have that obligation? I believe that is a distortion of the context of Matthew 18. If what you are saying is true then that would be as if we all have a license to meddle within any and every conflict that our brothers and sister in Christ engage in. Can you imagine the judgment that would ensue out of such a misrepresentation of the Matthew 18 exhortation?
And finally, since you have publicly offended me, I shall publicly call you out on it and publicly defend myself. Your obvious implication that you question whether I am believer by your not so subtle use of quotes around the word “believer” and further outright saying, “If I am a believer” has greatly offended me and I believe that such an accusation would grieve Christ. I have done nothing, nor said anything, that should have you questioning whether or not I am a believer. Your accusation was uncalled for, yet I believe that God has a definitive purpose in your accusation, and I believe that purpose would be this:
to further solidify the fact that SGM, as a whole, questions whether anyone outside of SGM (or within) who does not whole-heartedly conform to the teaching, polity, doctrine, or practices of SGM, or further, who raises even reasonable questions regarding the teaching, polity, doctrine, or practices of SGM, can possibly be a “believer”.
I am offended for my Christ that you would question my faith simply on the basis that I have brought to light some darkness within your beloved SG church of Gilbert.
Again Matthew, I have posted several questions for you that you have neglected to answer. If you’d like to peruse the previous posts and answer some of the things I’ve asked, as well as those at the top of this post, we would all like to hear your responses.
Be Bold,
Don’t allow the condecending, sarcastic tone behind seeminly concerned SG words derail you. They are masters of the lingo; just rest in the fact that genuine grace doesn’t depend on how well you tow the SG line of thinking, which they, of course, define. Your salvation rests in HIS work, not yours or theirs–do I hear an AMEN?
be bold,
By your writings you have been implying that you have not taken this to the person that has offended you. Plane and simple truth is if you are a believer and a member of that local church, you are not following the word of God and his instruction to these matters.
The fact that you pen your handle on here as “BE BOLD” is also is saying that you are a man of God to be reckoned with, yet you do this in the darkness of a “Blog” with anonymity.
Your charges that you have written of are serious if true. You have questioned a mans honesty, intergerity and weather he is truly called of God to lead our church.
If my directness has offended you I am sorry but you need to get thicker skin if you are going to be posting opinions as truth and expect to not be challenged your wrong.
I have told you and others before; I will not debate or engage in chatter in this “blog” atmosphere.
If you have been offended and you’re not just popping off for attention then take it to your brother and follow the words that God has given you.
If I have truly offended you bring it to me.
I can handle it. I am a big boy.
As to your questions you have directed to me, call me and lets have a cup of coffee.
Matthew
Let the spin doctors let loose.
Matthew – Just as I suspected, your true colors (defensive ones at that) would be revealed in no time. It hasn’t taken much to ruffle your feathers. I will be happy to respond to your accusations a little later in the day when I have more time. You are fiercely loyal Matthew, unfortunately you are loyal to an organization that has turned away from God and to men that are leading the path.
Me thinks your feathers are ruffled.
You will need to call me to hear your response.
Let’s have a cup of coffee.
By the way I am not ruffeled at all.
Thanks
Matthew
Matthew,
I do say, you are a cunning linguist using all the proper SGM termonology and everything.
Impressive.
But, somehow, my own family wasn’t worth the Matthew 18 effort when it came time for the SGM poobahs to dismember me.
Not only that, when they made the suggestion that “some might say you’re in sin.” and I asked them to open up the Bible and *show* me my sin with scripture verses, I was accused of being combattive and unteachable.
For asking for them to support their unsubstiantiated accusations of sin with actual Bible verses?
I can assure you I am not in my mommy’s basement blogging.
I am not in my underoos (not that its your business,)
And I do not have zits.
And I have every right to opine freely about the excesses I have seen in the SGM family of churches.
Be Bold, (HI!) your name is well chosen, by the way.
I’m just shaking my head here because Matthew really thinks he knows who you are and he is wrong, as he has been told more than once – not only by Jim but by you as well..SO..Matthew, what are you doing here bro? Time to move on to another topic..
You implied Be Bold was weak, by accusing BB of not having thick skin. Or did I misunderstand? Now, now..name calling and shifting blame, must it really resort to that? Is that what your argument is being reduced to in the face of people who won’t be manipulated by it? That’s something my ten year old son does when he knows he can’t get his way.
Be Bold, I hardly think you’re going to run off to your corner and cry because the blog bully has called you names. I’m sure you’re mostly getting a chuckle out of this foolishness as well, because it’s simply too amusing to miss. But just don’t let Matthew see you laughing, because then he’ll know you are free, bold and walking in grace – and that is a BIG NO NO. You’re supposed to be guilt ridden over your sin right now? Doncha know?
BB was right Matthew, because you do have this picture of some poor guy in your head and you are accusing him and condeming him all the while he has no clue- Remember Mordecai and Haman and what assumptions can do to a person…
By the way Matthew, please take some time to read the stories here before you start accusing your brothers and sisters in the Lord here of not following Biblical principles of reconciliation, addressing personal and corporate sin, etc…(and yes, we’re still saved even though we don’t attend SGM churches anymore)
You really don’t see how foolish this is, do you? I will give kudos though, for going against what you’ve undoubtedly been told by your higher-ups at Gilbert – to stay off the blogs. It’s no coincidence the dramatic decrease in posts by current SGMers (but even more are reading now) since the apostolic warnings started being issued via care group leaders and pastors nation-wide. Yet here you are! Bravo, and I mean that honestly, no sarcasm there at all. I’m truly impressed at YOUR boldness, even if it is a bit misguided.
My prediction? You’ll stop posting soon, because the leaders who have the freedom to continue reading here will have told you to, and you must obey them. Or at least you think you do.
But I triple-dog-dare you to stick around and see what happens when you seek the truth, and not an agenda.
We’d love to have you! Because the Lord is at work here, and we would love for you to be a part of it!
Same here, DB. We went to the pastor privately, in acceptable PDI form. Then our next step was to be taking several others with us. But before we could even TALK to anyone else about what we had seen, the tables had been turned. WE were called into a meeting where WE were confronted on a long list of OUR sins. We were told that we had to go because we would divide the church. And we were forced out.
HOW ON EARTH WERE WE SUPPOSED TO FOLLOW MATTHEW 18? Any attempt by us to talk to anyone else about the ugliness of our pastor’s actions in order to solicit two or three witnesses was stamped as gossip and slander. By the end of the horrible ordeal, our pastor had nearly everyone scared to talk to us at all! Can you see the delimma, Matthew?
Matthew, you are demanding Matthew 18 be followed, but it was not followed on their part in regard to MANY of our stories. In our case, again like DB, we BEGGED them for Scriptures to substantiate their actions, and were ignored. It was frustrating, confusing, unfair, and unbiblical.
You come on here and challenge Be Bold to bring his accusations in the proper Matthew 18 way, but here’s the problem. The balances of justice and truth within SGM are heavily weighted in favor of the pastors/apostles who have inflated their own authority above what God intended.
Proverbs 11:1
A false balance is abomination to the LORD: but a just weight is his delight.
In addition, this overemphasis on their authority has dwarfed and suppressed one of the most precious of New Covenant Truths – the priesthood of every believer. It is precisely because of this that those who HAVE attempted Matthew 18 steps get ABSOLUTELY NOWHERE. Or worse.
Matthew, did the pastors tell you that no one has come to them with issues recently; you seem to be implying that? I’m just another ex-sgm’er from Gilbert who agrees that it does NO good to bring issues to the pastors, and it can definitely be detrimental to relationships. Anything you bring to them will somehow be made out to be your sin, even if they seem to receive it well at first. They must be taught how to do this at PC. We were counseled by many who learned the hard way to just leave quietly, you will only suffer more if you question/address the pastors. Matthew, doesn’t this just seem WRONG?
Well, shut my mouth!
This is exactly what my friend and his family have been tellin’ me.
Amazin’ - to hear a man like Matthew sound like he has all the answers from the Pastors. Those inside just don’t get it.
Attach……Spin It.
This is what this group does best.
You do this in the darkness of a “Blog” with anonymity.
I asked Be Bold to do this in the light of day and I would be a wittness if needed.
Not in the Darkness of a blog.
Matthew-
“This group” is very diverse.
I just noticed that SGM has the following seminars scheduled for its Pastors Conference coming up in April.
The Pastor and the Counseling Process (Andy Farmer)
The Pastor and the Priority of Plurality (Dave Harvey)
Both should be very interesting listening. The first in light of the issue of Noel highlighted on the SGMsurviors and the second seminar for reasons discussed at length on this blog.
Beloved:
I have to get candid on a particular point that is driving me bananas. I keep seeing a phrase on these posts and have heard it about eight thousand times in audio messages today.
(Okay, well, I also have to say something about it before I scream and melt my keyboard with laserbeams from my eyes; too much caffeine, I’m sure).
If I hear the phrase “the local church” one more time… beloved, please find a pic of planet earth. See all of the Christians there? THAT is your LOCAL CHURCH. And if somehow we were able to get a pic of the cosmos, that would be an even better pic of the LOCAL CHURCH. Our individual buildings/groups and denominations are one particle in a very, very large body.
This isn’t Mikey Jackson We-Are-The-World philosophy, this is Christianity. The detritus from your brand doesn’t smell any sweeter than your neighbor’s brand.
WE are the church. It doesn’t just belong to our local SGM bodies. Fellow brothers and sisters in SGM. There are other Christians outside the walls of your homes and churches. Get to know them. It won’t be any messier than your “local” church, I promise! The introverted vision we suffer from at SGM now is killing us.
Okay, it’s sort of out of my system now.
This is a rant I won’t apologize for.
~pk
Matthew:
May I remind you that whatever description you have for this blog (“darkness” springs to mind), you’re swimming in it brother. It’s not as murky as you think, and your end of the pool isn’t as clean as you think either.
Please be careful to not shoot yourself in the foot (with your own bullets, no less). You are coming really close to doing that.
~pk
See I understand if you have gone through the proper process and you feel you must tell your story if you still feel unsatisfied in the end result.
I am fine with that.
BUT Be Bold has not, at least that’s what he is implying.
He has replaced opinion as truth.
Does not the accused have the right to hear his accuser?
Does he also not have the right to hear what these charges are?
I have not gone to leadership about what is going on here with be bold or anyone else that has posted here.
Cowboy,
I don’t what you mean by being “inside”, that I am not.
No one has told me not to be here or to spy on anyone.
No one would ever tell me not to be here or post here.
And yes I am BOLD enough to say that.
Don’t I have a responsibility if I see awrong to point it out?
Juli,
Bless your heart.
Sorry the Texan coming out.
But aren’t you doing to me what you have accused SGM of doing?
Put me down, call it sin, than ask me to stay.
Again, Bless your heart.
Matthew:
“Don’t I have a responsibility if I see a wrong to point it out?”
Yes. As do the rest of your brothers and sisters in Christ do on this blog.
~pk
Juli – You are correct, I will not be found cowering in a corner with my thumb in my mouth, slurping snot between my sobs. I will however continue to try to engage Mr. Geesling in a grown up conversation, regardless of the fact that he doesn’t seem to want to participate in one.
Matthew – I have checked in a few times this afternoon amidst my busy schedule and I have found it to be an exercise in self-control to not reply to your comments. However, I will be more than happy to address your most recent assertions when I have a little more time later. My schedule doesn’t permit it right now.
Here in AZ – You brought up a good question for Matthew – reiterating a question that I posted to Matthew earlier.
So, at the risk of repeating myself ad nauseam:
Matthew – are you professing that you have been TOLD by your leadership that these things have NOT been brought to their attention in recent weeks or months? Please answer. I know that you said that my writing had implied that I had not addressed the pastors; I believe you may be making some assumptions.
Here in AZ – You also said, “We were counseled by many who learned the hard way to just leave quietly” How sad that anyone has had to “learn the hard way”, and yet, I know that to be true.
PK – You’re awesome. Thank you for your very grand perspective on the Body of Christ, and for calling our attention back to the fact that WE ARE THE CHURCH.
Matthew – Do you believe that?
And in reading your most recent post Matthew – I challenge you to outline for me that “opinions” that I have stated as truth.
Matthew-
I think you’ve made your wishes quite clear to BE BOLD. And you’ve used scripture to back up your appeal. However-since everyone else and their stories and details are of no interest to your appeals-why not forward Jim a private message to BE BOLD and trust God that if he or she needs to act on your appeals-that they will do so.
I’m serious-why keep bringing it up on a public forum when you have no wishes of any real interaction about this matter with anyone other than BE BOLD? We’ve heard your warnings and have the Spirit too -and I’m sure most of us will be able to discern whether or not to believe what BE BOLD or anyone else has to say.
If at any time you wish to interact with any of us other “refugees”-then please feel free to stop back and jaw with us. I just don’t see how you’re going to get what you want by including all of us in on a conversation that you only want to have with 1 person. The ball’s in BE BOLD’s court now…and the choice is theirs, not yours to make.
Peace to you-mm
Matthew – you said, “I have not gone to leadership about what is going on here with be bold or anyone else that has posted here.”
No need. They already know. And, if they have not come to you about it yet, then they are allowing you some slack on your kite string. My suspicion is that they will ever so slowly begin winding it back in, and you’ll be pulled back to the ground, but you’ll be convinced that you’re the one deciding to land the kite.
That kind of manipulation of one’s personal rights (like posting on a blog) is one of their areas of mastery, you’ll see.
Beloved:
I am sorry I have not sooner thanked everyone for the prayers, well-wishes and welcome-backs. They are heartily received and I am humbled by your love, care and concern. Good to see part of my “local church” here being so supportive, even when many of us don’t see eye to eye on everything.
God bless each and every one of you abundantly, and thanks again.
~pk
PK said,
“WE are the church. It doesn’t just belong to our local SGM bodies. Fellow brothers and sisters in SGM. There are other Christians outside the walls of your homes and churches. Get to know them. It won’t be any messier than your “local” church, I promise! The introverted vision we suffer from at SGM now is killing us.”
I’m cheering! Yes, yes, yes!
Thank you, PK, the church isn’t the steeple, it is the people.
Matthew
I guess you also aren’t aware another way SGM practices the Matthew 18/”peacemaker process.” This is where they so easily tell SGM members (even members that have been in an SGM Church for quite a long time:
There’s the door.
You need to find another Church to attend.
We are “asking” you to leave.
That is how a lot of SGM’s “peacemaking” and “conflict resolution” is handled. One person commeted that SGM uses this approach of “asking” someone to leave all to often and without thought.
For SGM to practice this type of approach and then have leaders endorse the book “Peacemakers” or for Harris to write a book to state to stop “dating” the church sure seems contradictory.
Just something to think about if you do consider what people post here.
Matthew,
I have read here and I am trying to understand a couple of things and counsel my buddy also.
I want to ask you a few questions about your SGM Gilbert Chruch.
How many people go on a church plant?
I hear it’s the Single’s Pastor planting the church. So, many singles are going along with him, right?
How often do you talk to this SGM Shank guy?
Did your recent ”Family Meeting” include Shank’s comments?
How will Shank be helping out your Gilbert Church during this time of “sending Pastors”?
What’s Shank’s part in his ”Local church”?
OK, Jim and PK and blogsters,
Here’s the deal, as I am helping my buddy think about this meeting they call a Family Meeting. I’m hearing about several things AND when it comes to leadership taking pay cuts because of the “economy”…well, I start to feel that Twilight Zone music kick in.
So, I ask my buddy, what’s Shank goin’ to do for the cause?
My buddy says “Steve Shank”, oh, he wasn’t sitting on the couch with all the Pastors. Then I hear a pause and well, I don’t think he was there!
Dang, I think to myself. Shank must have had something pretty important to do if it affected the Pastors paychecks and they were in a Family Meeting about it…What could Shank have on his calendar that night? Oh, no, and then the light goes on, so I say to my buddy, Shank won’t have his paycheck messed with or any accoutability to his “Local Church”.
Yup, that paycheck stuff, ain’t none of yo business!
Hey Jim, is this a Shankin’, or what?
Interesting, Cowboy.
Has anyone heard how the economy will be affecting SGM employees? Will they be taking a paycut?
Wondering if each church’s 10% franchise fees — er, i mean — tithe to SGM will be lowered given the current financial crisis of our economy.
NOT Fun.
Awe yes, the tithe
They would be robbing God, wouldn’t they. Ooops, I forgot, that only applies to the sheep–YIKES!!!!
Wow! Last week PK and Tiger Woods announced their returns… Life is good! Welcome back PK. You are known and respected at the Abby. Hope your recovery is complete and quick.
We have been very busy with our investigative work in the Gilbert Forest area. We have spoken with numerous Gilbert SGC exiles. They are an emotionally and spiritually scarred folk. Though bloodied from battle, their spirits are being restored and their faces are once again reflecting the glory of the Lord. A consistent strong theme ran through all the stories. Stories of hyper control and manipulation in which children as well as parents still find themselves caught in the talk of self introspection consumed by their perceived sins, with the view of the Savior and His transforming power nowhere in sight.
We will relate our findings over a period of time so one can adequately assimilate just what was done to these souls. In this first chilling installment, let’s talk about how the intimacy of care group can define you for life. As one of my interviewees said, SGM’s teaching on sin coupled with caregroup application can be “toxic” to the individual and family.
Did you know that individual attendance is taken at all care groups and the names are forwarded to the appropriate pastor?
Did you know, depending on how zealous the care group leader is, that a person’s problems and confessions get reported on special forms up the chain of command? Some CG leaders give more detailed that others.
Did you know that a person’s problems can then get discussed amongst the pastors?
Did you know that those intimate things you shared about yourself, your spouse and your children can be shared at the CG leaders meeting?
It seems that each care groups has its own file in the pastor’s office.
Did you know that because of the information above that folders are kept about many individuals in the church?
Did you know that if one changes care groups, the new leaders might be told about past failings, weaknesses, and sins of both the adults and the children in the family?
Finally to the dear saints still attending SGC: Some tips on how you can survive.
First, never, ever invite the pastors or care group leaders into your hearts or your minds to judge your motives, be your conscience, or to be the Holy Spirit telling you how God is directing you. Find a trusted Christian friend preferably outside the SGC local church to be your confessor.
Secondly, sharing personal or intimate information in caregroup is not wisdom. Even Jesus had levels of friendships. He shared things with the twelve that were not shared with the 70. He shared things with the three, Peter, Mark and John which weren’t shared with the twelve. And only John, beloved of the Lord, had the identity of Judas revealed to him at the Last Supper. Be smart. Lose lips can not only sink your ship but your spouse and family as well.
Matthew you said: I have not gone to leadership about what is going on here with be bold or anyone else that has posted here.
ooooooohhh - now we’re shaking in our boots brother! Are you actually trying to threaten or scare the people from the Gilbert church who are reading and posting here? Reminding them of some sort of “magical pastoral power” over them?? what was the motive behind that comment all about, seriously?
It would be beneficial to your argument here if you could get two things straight:
1) the leadership EVERYWHERE in SGM is fully aware of what is going on here, they have for quite some time. We’re not in hiding. Despite your constant reminders that we’re all anonymous, we’re not. (Myself included, Juli is my REAL NAME, you’ve obviously visited my blog and know I am from Texas. No darkness here.) And those who are anonymous have a right to do whatever they want..it’s a free world outside of SGM, but I can see how you could forget that considering your vantage point. So go ahead. “Tell on us” – but I have to ask, if they didn’t know about this blog or the posts here, and you DID tell, would it be considered slander and gossip? Just asking.
2) we (including the influx of recent refugees from the Gilbert church) aren’t under the authority of CJ, your pastor, Steve Shank, any other apostle, or anyone else in SGM. We are under the authority of Jesus Christ. As has already been discussed, WE ARE THE BODY. It is ultimately HIM we answer to. SGM can’t make us DO or THINK anything, anymore, and that is REALLY what the problem is in their book.
and to respond to your suggestion that I am acting like SGM – hahaha..ok, now that my hysterical laughter is out – no, I’m not acting like SGM. Here is what SGM would do – Incidentally, when did I say you were i sin? Did I even use the word sin? I didn’t. It must be all in your head. You’re imagining things. DO you FEEL guilty? Cause if you do, that is conviction. I was simply stating what I was observing as the fruit in your life. You should first examine your own heart before addressing the sins in others. Since you are addressing the sins of BB by not following Scripture or submitting to leadership, I would imagine that you first took the time to remove the plank from your own eye..allow me to speak some truth into your life..
ok..enough playing around… I never said you were in sin Matthew, I said you were calling BB names and being a bully. Now, if those are sinful things in your mind, hey, that’s between you and God. I’m just saying that it isn’t NICE.
Signed,
Your Sister in Christ, Juli, from the Free Republic of Texas
Cadvael,
Your insights and findings are remarkably familiar to me.
“What’s it”
Brother Cadfael:
Thank you for the welcome back, and what a shame to only meet you now and not earlier!
You do know that when I read your posts, I will hear Derek Jacobi’s voice, don’t you?
~pk
Cadfael said: “Finally to the dear saints still attending SGC: Some tips on how you can survive.
First, never, ever invite the pastors or care group leaders into your hearts or your minds to judge your motives, be your conscience, or to be the Holy Spirit telling you how God is directing you. Find a trusted Christian friend preferably outside the SGC local church to be your confessor.
Secondly, sharing personal or intimate information in caregroup is not wisdom. Even Jesus had levels of friendships. He shared things with the twelve that were not shared with the 70. He shared things with the three, Peter, Mark and John which weren’t shared with the twelve. And only John, beloved of the Lord, had the identity of Judas revealed to him at the Last Supper. Be smart. Lose lips can not only sink your ship but your spouse and family as well.”
This is great advice for those on here that are still in their respective SGM churches. Following this council will help stem the potential damage at least to some degree. It has for us.
So after I’ve had a night to sleep on this I wanted to add that while not inviting the leadership into the running of our personal lives appears to have protected us from overt control, we are still in the very beginning processes of dissecting the effects of their subtle manipulation on our lives and beliefs.
While I feel that my mind has been messed with and I’ve chucked discernment far to many times, I’m thankful that the wounds don’t go as deep for us as they have for others. As I’ve visted these blogs over the last several months I’ve always told myself that our church was one of the exceptions. It is so sad to see how wrong I have been and that just because I personally haven’t dealt with drastic manipulation and control doesn’t mean it wasn’t happening.
DB said, “Not only that, when they made the suggestion that “some might say you’re in sin.” and I asked them to open up the Bible and *show* me my sin with scripture verses, I was accused of being combattive and unteachable.”
SOME MIGHT SAY?!?!? Ha ha ha ha. Oh, you’re killing me. Some might say? That is one of the saddest/funniest things I have heard in a long time. Ah, some. Ha ha ha ha. it’s like the bully girls on the playground in middle school, but in dressed up (er, I mean uglier grown up man form). Ah, some. Like that is to mean anything. So glad you asked for specifics. That is hysterical.
Steve 240 said: That is how a lot of SGM’s “peacemaking” and “conflict resolution” is handled. One person commeted that SGM uses this approach of “asking” someone to leave all to often and without thought.
After our CGL was fired, the new CGL who is a pastor had a meeting at his house along with the sr. pastor. He told us that if we were tormented by SGM’s ways/govt., etc. then we should leave SGC because God would never want us to be tormented like that. This was our first meeting after the big hoorah on Dec. 20th to which most of us were not even invited. The pastors could have paved the way for the healing process to begin for us but what they did was encourage us to walk out the door (of SGC) which is what several of us did. By the way, he did apologize later during the meeting but it was already out there – you know like toothpaste when you squeeze it out of the tube?
Fred
Thanks for sharing your experience with either being “asked” or encouraged to leave. It is sad but true.
I find this type of treatment a contradiction to Josh Harris having a book out titled “Stop Dating the Church.” If Harris wants to push for more of a marriage vs. “dating” situation with church membership then it would call for SGM trying to work things out or conflict resolution vs. pushing members to the door.
Watching Closely said: “As I’ve visited these blogs over the last several months I’ve always told myself that our church was one of the exceptions. It is so sad to see how wrong I have been and that just because I personally haven’t dealt with drastic manipulation and control doesn’t mean it wasn’t happening.”
I think this is absolutely what more and more are finding, sadly. There truly are degrees of hurt and blame we have all experienced it but the common denominator is we were hurt and experienced some sort of loss(es)..I said to Carole the other day that once Noels’ story was shared, some posters made comments that their own stories and experiences, by comparison, were “nothing” – but each story is what it is..yes, some are decidedly more horrific and disturbing, like Noel’s..but we each “own” our individual experiences.
I think that is one of the problems fundamentally in this, many of us have sort of lost our individual identities while in SGM and we were only encouraged/taught to be able to think collectively and in the context of the Body..as a result, when the WHOLE Body doesn’t experience the same hurt, it is not validated, acknolwedged, or understood. Yet this is unbiblical, since as the Body, when one part suffers, the entire suffers.. SGMers reading here need to know that – which is why I think there will be an increase in the assumption that we aren’t really part of the Body (as they define it) ultimately..this reasoning will justify their lack of response to us. (*just my prediction)
it isn’t about comparing stories and perspectives and things being black and white, right or wrong….there really is much grey here. it’s about the right we have, as believers, to simply share our experiences, have the chance to be heard, and find some encouragement, correction and exhortation within a Body (this blog) that is founded on love and grace. Just because I didn’t experience what Noel did, I’m not going to doubt for a SECOND it didn’t happen! Yet that is what has happened so many times- you see, so many in SGM who have not experienced the things we have, simply dismiss it…they will remind us over and over that not everyone feels the way we do – well, I don’t think anyone here assumes that..I’ve read more than once that people agree there are some good teachings in SGM, if there weren’t we would not have been part of it while we were..but we aren’t here to discuss what is good about SGM, that is what Girltalk and CJ’s blog are for…we’re here to discuss what needs to change, and the effects certain teachings, etc have had on us, as part of the Body.
SGMers want to focus only on the positive points to the dismissal of the negative…and wonder why we don’t discuss the positive more..well, that’s like saying to a wife whose husband cheated on her to focus on his positive qualities and just move past the fact he commited adultery…(as an aside, this actually HAS happened in SGM counseling sessions, but that is another post!)
this type of deflection, shifting blame, and avoidance is not healthy, productive, or wise…it doesn’t lead to peace either. In order to get the glass out of your foot and heal the cut, you don’t keep walking on it until it goes back under the skin, you pull it out, as painful as it is, apply some ointment or balm, and allow it to truly heal. You keep it covered and clean, careful not to allow it to become infected. I love all the analogies we have in life that truly are just wisdom that can be applied to other areas, you know?
Fred,
I’m one of the many who was “shown the door” because of doctrinal differences. It isn’t a nice feeling to be asked by the people you thought loved you, to leave. It was the last thing I expected. But there is so much more grace and faith outside of SGM, at least in my life. The freedom to think for myself has been something I never experienced before leaving. That was over ten years ago, and I continue to grow in grace and love for the Lord.
Congrats on finding your way out of the bondage!
Fred said:
“After our CGL was fired, the new CGL who is a pastor had a meeting at his house along with the sr. pastor. He told us that if we were tormented by SGM’s ways/govt., etc. then we should leave SGC because God would never want us to be tormented like that. ”
I have one other thought on this. For this CGL/pastor to say this and make it a one way street shows this person was quite presumptive and arrogant. He was saying that he and SGM was fully correct in what they did and that there wasn’t even a possibility that he or SGM could be doing anything wrong It was the old if you don’t like it, it is my way or the highway, so you just need to leave.
Wouldn’t have been the more proper approach for this leader to have said that we can discuss it and then for the leader to do some introspection so see if maybe what they were doing was wrong? I am glad the leader apologized but his initial action really seemed to show his heart etc.
Yes Steve 240, there is really no room for change. Not the kind of change which is more than just outward appearances. SGM has no intention that I can see of changing their polity or their attitude toward the people. If the pastors that night had really cared for and loved the people, we would have never been told to leave. They would have encouraged the dialogue and as real pastors, they would have encouraged healing within the group. What they did was to tear the group down even more. Trying to get one of the pastors to tell the truth about a phone call/invitation to our former cgl was also quite amazing.
Fred
What is really sad is when they “ask” those that have been members for a while who have faithfully served the church to leave without doing much to try and “peacemake” before they do this.
Though still not right, it is one thing to ask someone newer to the church to leave but to do this to one who has been a faithful member for a while is a lot worse and I am sure it traumatic on those “asked” to leave.
Steve240,
I thought the torment comment was a bit odd – sorta tongue in cheek – making Fred look like a baby or something. Uncalled for by leaders who are suppose to “stand in the very stead of God”. Fred, again, I sympathize.
canary
Good point. “Torment” is quite a strong word. If one is in fact “tormented” in a church then they should leave.
That certainly was a strange use of words.
Juli said: “…we were only encouraged/taught to be able to think collectively and in the context of the Body..as a result, when the WHOLE Body doesn’t experience the same hurt, it is not validated, acknolwedged, or understood. Yet this is unbiblical, since as the Body, when one part suffers, the entire suffers..”
EXACTLY.
I always thought that it wasn’t happening here. But as we’ve actually started asking people why they have left our church and just sat and listened, I’ve been shocked and saddened to hear their stories. It is eerie to see the common threads happening to people I know and those I’ve read about here. Most of us are just quick to chock it up to a one-time occurance because we live in an imperfect world, without realizing that it is habitual.