From our friend Taking Note:
I thought you all might enjoy this exceptional quote from Sam Storms:
“There are people, professing Christian people, who are determined to
bring you under their religious thumb. They are bent on making you a
slave of their conscience. They have built a tidy religious box, without
biblical justification, and strive to stuff you inside and make you conform
to its dimensions. They are legalists, and their tools are guilt, fear,
intimidation, and self-righteousness. They proclaim God’s unconditional
love for you, but insist on certain conditions before including you among
the accepted, among the approved elite, among God’s favored few.
I’m not talking about people who insist you obey certain laws or moral
rules in order to be saved. Such people aren’t legalists. They are lost!
They are easily identified and rebuffed. I’m talking about Christian
legalists whose goal is to enforce conformity among other Christians in
accordance with their personal preferences. These are life-style legalists.
They threaten to rob you of joy and to squeeze the intimacy out of your
relationship with Jesus. They may even lead you to doubt your salvation.
They heap condemnation and contempt on your head so that your life is
controlled and energized by fear rather than freedom and joy and delight
in God. Rarely would these folk ever admit to any of this. They don’t
perceive or portray themselves as legalists. If they are reading this they
are probably convinced I’m talking about someone else. They’d never
introduce themselves: “Hi! My name is Joe/Julie. I’m a legalist and my
goal is to steal your joy and keep you in bondage to my religious
prejudices. Would you like to go to lunch after church today and let me
tell you all the things you’re doing wrong?”
I suspect that some of you are either legalists or, more likely, the victims
of legalism. You live in fear of doing something that another Christian
considers unholy, even though the Bible is silent on the subject. You are
terrified of incurring their disapproval, disdain, and ultimate rejection.
Worse still, you fear God’s rejection for violating religious traditions or
cultural norms that have no basis in Scripture but are prized by the
legalist. You have been duped into believing that the slightest
misstep or mistake will bring down God’s disapproval and disgust.
When you are around other Christians, whether in church or a home
group or just hanging out, do you feel free? Does your spirit feel relaxed
or oppressed? Do you sense their acceptance or condemnation? Do you
feel judged, inadequate, inferior, guilty, immature, all because of your
perceived failure to conform to what someone else regards as “holy”?
Jesus wants to set you free from such bondage! As Paul said, “you were
called to freedom”!”
– Sam Storms http://www.enjoyinggodministri…..s-liberty/
Thanks so much for posting this! Legalism is a snare that prevents us from enjoying the freedom Jesus Christ gives us when we accept His undeserved gift. There can be no question that legalism is a tool of Satan! Galatians is one of the best resources to learn about Christian liberty.
These people (legalists) create a world of living as “forgiven sinners”, rather than as REDEEMED SAINTS”. They must be so fearful and full of shame themselves, that it is too painful for them to live as a saint, therefore, they set about trying (many times accomplishing) to pull as many in as possible into their world of pain.
Once others have been manipulated into this “utopia”, they then set about edifying themselves as the “one to be like”.
This in itself must be a terrible way to live for the leader and his personal army. That lifestyle must be filled with fear, anger, fustration, anxiousness, competition and even rage at times concerning losing control, as we see these things rear their ugly heads each time he (or his “disciples” are crossed.)
Sinners live in the darkness of the hour of the crucifixion. Saints live in the light illuminating from the empty tomb as Mary ran to “tend to her Lord”.
We must continue to look to and run towards the light. We must pray for our brothers and sisters to be able to see the light and come to know and understand that as “childen of God”, son and daughters of the heavenly Father, and brothers and sisters of Jesus they are already in the light, and it is the darkness of man, NOT THEIR SIN, that is condemning them. We must interceed daily for those abused, wounded, and rejected that their healing come swiftly and lovingly. WE MUST STAND IN THE GAP, BRINGING THEM BEFORE THE FATHER IN JESUS’ NAME, lifting their sweet, wounded spirits to HIM.
In turn, we must pray for the leaders of this travesty, as we are instructed to pray for “those that spitefully use you”. Because, in the end, they are the ones who will stand before the Father in these sins of pride and arrogance, being held accountable for their sins in representing HIM! We must pray that they see their own sins in this, repent, seek foriveness, and begin their own journey in the light. If there is no change, I fear they will face the most painful darkness of all: THE WRATH OF A JUST AND ANGRY GOD
I can’t even imagine how burdensome it must be for some of these pastors, who take on so much responsibility that is not their own. Then, to have to stand before God and explain how they taught leaven with the gospel…not a nice place to go.
Sam Storms says it all so well. What is there to add?
Wanda,
Hi! After I understood from Galatians how legalism effected me, I then turned to Hebrews. There, I found that my greatest sin was not pride, disobeying my leaders, or even having a junk drawer (taught by a pastor). My greatest sin, or weakness, was my lack of FAITH. I put so much faith into the system, into men, into my husband, to please God. Come to find out, faith in GOD is what pleases Him. Imagine that! Thus began the downfall of all my idols, and all the false teaching that set me up to be a Pharisee. Now, I’m free!
Thanks Canary! I plan to read through Galatians and Hebrews this afternoon and remember what you have shared with me. I’m grateful to have so much freedom in Christ! Wish all Christians could experience it. There’s NOTHING like it!!!
Wanda,
You’ve got that right! There is nothing like freedom in Christ, even if it costs us everything!
That was beautiful, thank you.
He does have CJM in his ecclectic list of recommended blogs
MiMi, Hi! I think I remember you posting a long time ago? Your “name” sounds familiar, but it is hard to keep up with everyone esp when you are as forgetful as I am (if I don’t write it down it is hard for me to remember)
anyway, welcome! If I am late in doing that, I apologize..
Thank you for sharing..and for the call to intercession – much needed.
I’ve recently been thinking about how the cloning in SGM is really conformity, and legalism drives it..but they are deceived into thinking it is UNITY.
Unity in Christ is obvious- it is when people from various backgrounds, ages, ethnicities, beliefs and convictions, attitudes, behaviors, and so on actually can come together and worship in Spirit and in truth together, having nothing in “common” but Christ as their common denominator.
Sort of like what happens on this board. While we all have our past experiences in common, do you guys realize that there is very little left that we all have in common with one another? There are so many varying viewpoints, doctrines believed, practices, lifestyle choices…it is beautiful to see all this on a BLOG and see the UNITY IN CHRIST by HIS SPIRIT.
Sad to say, this blog that SGM tells the churches not to read has more unity than the churches themselves. SGM has conformity. SGM Refuge has unity.
That posting was amazing. Thank you for sharing it, Fuge.
Canary-
You said; I can’t even imagine how burdensome it must be for some of these pastors, who take on so much responsibility that is not their own. Then, to have to stand before God and explain how they taught leaven with the gospel…not a nice place to go.
Great statement!! They have it covered with a simple phrase, “Heart Posture”.
That is to say that if your heart posture is to honor God, and you believe what you are teaching, or how you are responding, honors God and the gospel, then you have done the right thing and it is OK!! (Provided that it is not “clearly against scripture.” Just make sure you have a “reasonable” biblical perspective. Anything is possible when it seems reasonable. Like, it seems reasonable to believe SGM has Gods favor because he has not struck them down yet, and they continue to “Prosper”)
In more serious matters, it is up to the congregant to move on their personal conviction. Where that Pastor may give an opinion or perspective, the final decision rest on you, the member. The member too is covered if their heart posture is correct.
So truth and actions are not important as long as your motive is true and pure. (Provided that
You had the requisite number of Pastoral conversations before making a move)
(I believe this is how the Spanish Inquisition started?)
Anyone else familiar with this facet of teaching? It goes hand in hand with “The appearance of genuine repentance/the appearance of a genuine desire to honor God” as an assurance of humility and the reason for “never needing to speak of something again.” Otherwise, you become a sinner for bringing unnecessary bad reports.
Can’t we just agree to disagree, and stop debating all this alleged truth (Gossip)? J
Insert big puffs of smoke here…
PFR-
Good post. I dont understand you’re last statement-
Can’t we just agree to disagree, and stop debating all this alleged truth (Gossip)?
Could you elaborate?
Hey Jim,
Sorry about that. It is a variation on a direct quote from and SGM, “Elder.”
“Can’t we just agree to disagree, and stop debating all these alleged facts? In the grand scheme of things, what is more important, is learning to relate to each other in a way that Honors God. My hope for you is that your heart would be right before God. Would you not agree that extending grace and forgiving your brother is more important than being right?”
Says a bit more in full form.
I am trying to process a few things here.
1. Sam is Storming on the legalism of SGM, and with good reason. There is high and well defined expectation of an SGM member. Whether it is direct from the pulpit, or an emanation from the culture that lies within, it is there!! God Expects results from his investment. I have been told by SGM that this is what the parable of the Talent speaks to results in direct form.
2. Then there are the amalgam of defining statements, that at times seem contradictory, and the “constant change that is here to stay.” The most recent issuance of this is evident in their response to Gossip and Bloging;
Then remember that there is always another side. “The first to present his case seems right, till another comes forward and questions him” (Prov. 18:17). You never have all the facts. And you never have all the facts you need all at once. You are never in a position to see the whole picture, and therefore when you hear the first report, you should assume you have far too little information to draw an immediate conclusion. What you’ve heard from someone else is only “hear-say” evidence. It has no standing or validity unless it is confirmed in other ways.
There is always another side….hmmmmm. So even though the truth never changes, our understanding of it is more like the shifting sands of the desert, rather than the rock of Gibraltar. (This ever-changing “understanding” of truth is the loophole, and why we are always in shades of gray with SGM, instead of being in the light.)
(Side bar; The constant changing of SGM’s understanding and practice can be quite exhausting for the SGM member as they are always challenged with a new revelation to incorporate in there lives. For the SGM leader, it is touted as an evidence of humility, and pursuit of God’s “Elusive” truths, where the leadership tirelessly explores understanding and application.)
3. The glue for pasting the rigid legalism, with their shifting understandings is the “Heart Posture.” As if to say that it is ok, we are all going to make mistakes, we are human, but our desire is God’s best.
Church Polity is supposed to be designed to protect us from abuses and heresy in teaching, practice, and application. Yet it seems clear that SGM is a unique animal in the way they are set up, even departing from their beloved Wayne Grudem.
So in short;
Rather than having Humble, Accountable leaders that put forward the truth with the convictions of Moses, and the Wisdom of Solomon, (as advertised);
We are given men that are still figuring it out, and doing so without any real accountability, training, or safe guards, other than themselves. Men who we are to hold blameless because they believe that they are doing Gods best as our, ordained leaders. (Leaders who are self-professed/self confirmed to be beyond reproach)
Thank-you, PFR. I hadn’t recognized the “heart posture.” I mean I called it the leaders believing that they’re doing what’s best for us. And I guess I fell for that as some valid excuse. Thanks for shedding light.
Hey Bree, thanks.
The whole heart posture thing is a double edged sword as it is; a justification to the one who brings it up (SGM Pastor/Leader), and a condemnation for the person on the other end (SGM questioning member).
Remember it is “God’s” Church that they are “entrusted” with. We are simply the sheep. In the minds of SGM – “If we were anointed with the true wisdom and gifting to see them as they really are, then surely God would put us in a position that makes them accountable to us.” – (SGM Elder quote)
We would if we had a vote, but SGM polity has removed that basic protection.
Self-preservation at it’s most insidious best.
PFR,
Are you new, here? I see what you are saying. I wonder why the leaders don’t practice the “heart posture” thing when some underling asks challenging questions or brings correction. I think it is because they are in a fuedal system – peasants never challenge their lords. Bishops never challenge the Pope. Is that how it is?
As far as knowing two sides of the story – that’s another smoke screen. It is their way of not dealing with our experiences. Whenever they say we are not getting both sides, it means that we haven’t heard their side, which is always right. In the leaders minds, they are of higher rank than the rest of us (is that in the bible? I’d like to see it if it is!). So you don’t challenge the hierarchy. Show me a leader who models Jesus, a true servant-leader. Show me one who will go mow some poor person’s lawn, who will babysit some single mom’s kids, who will bring dinner to the sick. Show me a servant-leader who lives so joyously the life of Jesus that others who have never known Him come into the fold.
I did not see that where I was. My side of the story, of course.
That term “heart posture” makes my ears ring with an annoying buzz.
PFR – This is so true what you wrote:
“We are given men that are still figuring it out, and doing so without anyreal accountability, training, or safe guards, other than themselves. Men who we are to hold blameless because they believe that they are doing Gods best as our, ordained leaders. (Leaders who are self-professed/self confirmed to be beyond reproach)”
I grow more concerned every day for my fellow Christian friends who remain committed to staying the course under the leadership of these men. Men who have their own best interest in mind, men who do not practice servant leadership, men who abuse their authority, and men who have expected us to respect and honor them simply because they have told us that they are committed to being worthy of respect and honor.
I find it very interesting that when pride rears its ugly head within the pastoral realm or within the CGL realm (as it often does) that these same people who so quickly recognize pride in OUR Lives can’t seem to see it in their own. I once had an SGM leader tell me that it was one thing to acknowledge sin, but a completely different thing to turn away from it. Ironic, seeing as how this same leader frequently “confesses” the sin of pride in his own life, yet I’ve seen no turning away from it. I believe it’s become a very trendy thing among SGM leadership to “confess” their pride. It makes them appear quite humble, it makes the flock question if “these godly men” struggle with pride then my own pride must be even that much more significant, and it heaps more accolades upon themselves for being so “transparent” about their sin. But, nothing changes. It’s all the same. It’s not genuine. It’s a prideful confession of pride.
PFR, self-preservation, yes, I see what you mean. I still have a hard time seeing it as purposeful. I mean, isn’t it more like absolute power corrupts absolutely? The intentions were at some point really good and for the good of the sheep–at least they believed it so. And then the “heart posture” thing got twisted and used? It’s so hard to think that they planned this. I’m still in SGM. May I ask how long you’ve been out?
Odd that we have not discussed the concept of heart posture before, I too had forgotten this teaching, but what is interesting is, that it doesn’t apply to US, only to leadership.
Leadership is somehow exempt if they have rigth motives..but this doesn’t extend to members and sheep. When I told my former SGM pastor that I would have to give an account one day to GOD for my own actions, and that I could not blindly follow anyone. Here is an excerpt of what he emailed me shortly after I notified him I was leaving due to idolatry of the church (and him):
Jesus is passionate for His church. If we are passionate for His church, we are passionate for Him. If the roles are confused in your mind, let the Word of God bring the order needed.I have honestly never had anyone with such a situation as you pose. I do not believe that you understand the true issues. Perhaps , though, it would be wise to take special care in one regard especially: I would be very careful about the danger of becoming dispassionate about the very thing that Jesus is the most passionate about—that for which He died, that for which He laid down His life, that for which He intercedes, that for which He came to form, His bride for which He will return. I tell you in all honesty and love that I believe that you are wrong in your understanding of the situation. I wish that I had the place in your life where you would at least give me the benefit of the doubt and receive these warnings and course corrections.
(I added the bold.) But you see his utilizing the heart-posture..he is basically saying that because his motives are good, I should just forget the corrections and warnings FROM THE LORD I had received and listen to him! And there was over and over in his emails to me this implication that he knew what was best, and he ignored my repeated statements that I was seeking the Lord, finding answers and peace in Him. All he could see was that I had left the church, and that was “bad”..
none of this is new..but I want to share this mindset with those w ho are reading along right now, not posting, but still in SGM churches wondering what the heck is going on, what to think – the answers you will get from your pastor won’t differ much. They are trained and conditions to exalt the Body over the Head. My pastor talked a good talk about exalting Christ, but he never did. He exalted the Church, over and over and over again…I was always being pointed ot the church. And then he is shocked when I confessed I worship the church?
The Lord asked me some tough questions before i left, questions like: do you feel safe from sin because you are part of the Body, or because you are in Christ? Do you feel protected from the world because you are part of this Church, or because the Holy Spirit dwells in you? Are you able to worship me privately, or only corporately? Can you hear my voice, or do you need someone else to tell you when I am talking to you?
All these questions made me realize that the Body, as wonderful as it is, had become a thing of wickedness and an idol simply because of two things: THEIR repeated focus (on the Body, not Christ), and MY response to it.
Bravo to PFR and Be Bold! Your perspectives are so accurate and well said.
The real truth is that the whole movement is all about CJ, the leaders under him, and the pastors. It is not at all about the people and I don’t think it is about Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ did not come to earth to be served but to serve others and yet, these pastors expect to be served. We were told over and over how wonderful our pastors are (and we blindly believed it) and that we are to be a joy to our pastors (which of course we wanted to be) but now we see that it was always about the pastors. There was no concern about the people (unless you were one of the select few). There was no help for those really needing the help – not financially, not emotionally, and not spiritually. In fact, it has been said by one pastor, ”We are really good at strengthening the strong…)
There were no vibrant, alive ministries at our SGM church, not even the youth or single ministries. My latest concern is really, where is the money going? We know that it is not going help the poor, it is not going to ministries other than Sunday morning worship and service…..so where is it going? Yes, at least 1/10th to SGM, pastors and staff salaries, pastors’ retreats….what else? We know that SGCC spent $20,000 on an anniversary party. Someone mentioned weeks ago on this blog that SGCC goes to the orphanage in Mexico once a year. A collection is taken on at least one Sunday prior to the trip for the orphanage and tools, etc. for the trip and everyone going on the trip pays their own way….So how much is the church paying out of their budget (which is really the pocket of all those faithful members who are tithing and giving to the missions fund which is not a missions’ fund at all but is to pay off the mortage. (Whew! Sorry for the bad sentence structure here.)
It is so very sad how CJ and these men have taken advantage of wonderful people who come to these churches because they think it is the real thing. I believe that the people coming are really seeking God and want to live God honoring, God glorifying lives. Sadly, after being in awhile, their worship turns toward the movement and the local church and away from Jesus. No one sees this because they are deceived and blinded but it is the very thing that CJ and team teach over and over – idolatry. Very, very sad for so many to be in such bondage. I pray that God will shine the light of Jesus Christ into the hearts of the people and that they will see the truth and move in the freedom of the Holy Spirit and out of SGM churches.
But really, where is the money going? If you are still a SGM church member, tell your pastors that you want to know how much salary they are making, what is their retirement fund, and how many weeks of vacation they get a year. As a church member and one who is suppporting the church, you have every right to this information. We all work very hard for our money and we desire to obey God in tithing and giving to the church. If you as a church member do not have access to this information then you cannot know if the leadership of the church is using the money wisely and responsibly. There is too much evidence out there now that many of the SGM churches are in the red and are giving little to benevolance and other ministries (except SGM). Knowing this, you must learn as much about the budget as you can or you are also guilty of poor stewardship. This is true for us all whether we are in SGM or not. No more blindly trusting pastors with our money. We must know how the money is being used! If a church is not forthright with this information, we should run to the front door as fast as we can.
Do any SG churches divulge actual pastor salaries? MY SG church passed out an audited budget with all staff lumped together-but I’ve never seen an actual salary amount for individual pastors.
This lack of transparency concerned me then (as a member) and I wonder what their reason is for obscuring specific details in their budget?
Good points, Juli. I don’t read in the bible that Jesus died for the church, but for the individual, who then becomes a part of the church. Jesus has a passion for the people, not the structure. My husband said to me this morning that he believes SGM keeps placing their focus on the wrong stuff: holiness, doctrine, cross, etc. All of us should focus on Jesus. The other stuff is secondary, and falls into place when we are walking closely with Him. Are these leaders walking closely with Jesus, or the cross? One is inanimate, the other is ALIVE.
I said this before: when PDI took over our church in the early eighties, we had been all about building the New Testament church. Then it became all about holiness. Then it was a passion for doctrine, Then, the cross. As the years went by, the control became more and more obvious, until we were being forced to confess sins in care group. What will it be about tomorrow? Will Jesus, the Son of God, ever become their focus? I just don’t get why they don’t understand what we are trying to tell them. Frustrating.
Just Say No,
I understand what you are saying. My sister told me several years ago, “We need to get take the money out of the church.” Her meaning was that churches were becoming corrupt as they grew on peoples tythes and offerings. The money didn’t always go to the poor and needy. How many men would serve the Lord as pastors if they had to work on the side for their income, like Paul did? He made tents, so as not to be a burden to the Body. Yes, he went on to say that a worker is worthy of his wages, but he obviously believed strongly in not living off the people. Interesting, hmmmmm?
musicman-
At my ex sgc, all staff salaries and benefits were listed as one lump sum.
As were benevolence and honorariums…
Be Bold
You Said – Ironic, seeing as how this same leader frequently “confesses” the sin of pride in his own life, yet I’ve seen no turning away from it. I believe it’s become a very trendy thing among SGM leadership to “confess” their pride. It makes them appear quite humble, it makes the flock question if “these godly men” struggle with pride then my own pride must be even that much more significant, and it heaps more accolades upon themselves for being so “transparent” about their sin. But, nothing changes. It’s all the same. It’s not genuine. It’s a prideful confession of pride.
How true, my experience exactly. Confession, the acknowledgement of sin, and Repentance, the turning away from sin are two different things. We are from time to time, given an example of what a “heart felt” confession looks like via a Pastor.
However, for the repentance, we seldom see a change with SGM because;
- If the confession/repentance program is for a Pastors missteps within an established SGM practice, the path is usually that the problem lied within the Pastors Heart Posture, not the practice. You may hear an apology for the “sin” but not the action.
-If the confession/repentance program is for a Pastors missteps within his personal life, then; chances are you will never see it. They are in their own circle, and we are not in a place to know what goes on there. They may be flogging each other relentlessly; we are expected to take their word for it.
- If the confession/repentance program is for a Pastors deviating from established SGM practice then; chances are that Pastor will be seeing Steve Shank sooner than later.
Remember, in SGM, the Pastors job is to help us see our sin; we are not there to see or comment on theirs. Their first concern will always be why your focus is off yourself, and seek to understand only to the point where they can get you back on your self!! It truly is a one-way street. The perceived openness to any criticism is simply to see why you are off program.
Also remember in SGM “perceived” wrong actions, like most of what we have experienced, are simply the symptoms of a wrong Heart Posture. Chances are, they would say the wrong posture was ours.
Canary,
I remember Jo$h Harri$ waxing about how much we could do with all the new $pace and facilities that we received when CLC opened it’s expanded doors. He went on and on about all the opportunities that the new $pace could repre$ent.
I suppose that having the word of God, and joy filled members, is not enough any more.
We have also seen the pastors confessing pride over and over but also being pat on the back for their great humility. When the apostles or other leaders come to town, the first thing they do on “stage” is go on and on complimenting the pastors and telling the congregation what wonderful pastors we have and how they are men of great humility. It is a false humility though and is not walked out behind closed doors.
Is anyone else concerned about the $$$? We heard the same thing about the new facility and how it would be used.
financials at my church used to be available in the lobby to everyone – how much the pastor made, etc. Right about the time the church was adopted into SGM, the papers disappeared. Now no one knows who makes what, how much money goes to SGM, or anything..
go figure. I’m sure SGM counseled them not to make it available.
The Quizzler wonders why when legalism is discussed, the talk eventually turns to money?
Could it be due to the long history of the legalists using money to do their bidding?
The Quizzler remembers the legalists of old using questions about money to try to trick Jesus (Mark 12:13-17).
They also used money (30 pieces to be exact) to facilitate our Lord’s betrayal and capture (Mark 14:10-11).
Have legalists throughout history had an unholy love of money?
Do the legalists of today have that same love?
Is money their first love?
The Quizzler wonders????????????
PFR,
Josh Harris is the genius who ran CLC deep into the red. I’ll believe in accountability when he gets fired. How in the WORLD can they ask their people for money when they don’t know how to manage it?
Is CLC in the red? Do we have documentation on this?
acme, it was shared from the pulpit. They are laying off staff.
I guess a lot of people are struggling with a poor economy, even churches. I found it hard that leaders would commit us all to a building fund, without any input on our part, even though we were paying for it. Just didn’t seem right. I expect unpaid loans are going to be an issue for some churches. Do you think?
Wow. Did they mention where they’re cutting staff? Support staff or pastors or teachers? Is SGM also cutting staff? I’ve been out of CLC more than a year, but I know secretaries and teachers still.
BTW, welcome, Skinner. Are you in a Skinner box? Is your name a stimulus-response psych reference?
I’m wondering if the issue is more about idolotry (as Juli was alluding to above) than legalism (as interestingly defined here). In my church, there has been much emphasis on not being legalistic. I actually don’t see this as a problem here. (In fact, they probably tend to lean towards the other extreme in some ways.)
What I have noticed however is an absolute reverence for the leadership and whatever life-style choices they make. When a leader puts their children in a local charter school, everyone gushes over the school and sign their children up in droves. And when the leader’s children are pulled out, I noticed another shift towards people pulling their children out.
There is a lack of discernment on the part of the flock and instead blind immitation of whatever choices the leaders are making. The desire for control and lack of faith in the regular folk being capable of learning discernment and hearing from God themselves seems to have played into creating this monster.
Am I a legalist?
I tell my children not to do something in church or around other Christian families that I allow in my home.
1) God’s love for me depends on what I do.
2) Meeting the expectations of others, especially those in my congregation or in positions of authority, are paramount.
3) Moral and ethical questions are usually black and white and only made into fuzzy shades of gray by hand-wringing, bleeding-heart types.
4) I try hard to obey God and it irritates me that others think they can get away with avoiding the same level of dedication.
5) I fall short because I don’t have enough faith, or because I haven’t prayed enough, or because I just need to be a better person.
6) God is predisposed to be angry with me because I am a sinner. My main goal in life is to try to gain God’s favor by doing things that will impress him.
7) My sense of spiritual well-being is linked to a Christian leader or membership in my church rather than a personal relationship with God.
9) I believe my church is God’s true church and that most other Christians may be sincere, but are sincerely wrong.
10) The exterior choices a person makes in what they wear, hairstyle, piercings, tattoos, etc. is a clear indication of that person’s character.
11) I sometimes worry that people might take advantage of grace if it’s preached too much —people might think they can do anything they want.
12) After being around Christians for a while I feel drained —weary of putting up a false front.
13) When I happen to miss a service or activity of my church I feel guilty.
14) I will likely get into heaven, even though I’m far from perfect, because I have tried to be a basically good person and God will take that into account.
Hi acme. So far, only support staff have been laid off at CLC. I don’t know about other churches.
I’m not in a Skinner box, but I am standing on my “Rights Box” and that’s a very bad thing to do.
Skinner-
I’m glad you’re here!
Gilbert has laid off one support staff member…although it was announced that he is voluntarily giving up his position for the betterment of the church since he wants to help the church with their financial struggle. Gilbert is a wealthy church, not sure what the struggle could be, but apparently there is one.
voluntarily..there is NO voluntary anything when you’re being manipulated and controlled, you just think you are doing it on your own.
puppet-pastors. puppet-leaders. but who is holding the strings?
Gratefully Dis.,
I recognize my old self in a lot of your post. It is an awful memory. Did we idolize our leaders, or did they put themselves there? Probably a little of both. I’m so glad to be free of all the condemnation and plate-spinning.
Juli,
I remember being asked once by an ex-member (while I was still in PDI) if I believed I needed to ask my pastor’s wife permission to miss a meeting. I told her, “No, of course not.” Yet, that is exactly what I was doing. It was what we were taught. How could I have not seen it at the time? Why was I not able to be truthful with myself and my friend? I think we learn to turn a blind eye to the truth, because we don’t WANT it to be true.
Canary,
Those are the circumstances for which I would respond, “I’ll carefully pray about that,” which irritated them, for some unknown reason.
Why do they lump the salaries together when they publish the year end summaries? Why is it all so hidden from the very people who are supporting the church and the pastors? It’s just like the changes in doctrine that they have made over the years. SGM makes changes in doctrine and they never tell the people. Just like the issue with the baptism of the Holy Spirit. SGM changed this doctrine in 2001 (or around that time) and we were not told about this change. Shock to all of us. What other doctrines have been changed and actually what doctrines are they keeping from the people? I have heard recently from 3 different people, all in different “circles” within SGM, that SGM believes that Satan is now bound for a thousand years. This explains the heavy focus on sin and no spiritual warfare, except putting sin to death. I for one want to know what my church believes and I do not want to be in a church that hides doctrine. What are they afraid of????
Also, I agree that it is idolatry but it is also legalism. SGMers certainly don’t realize that they are in legalism but it is a huge issue. Trying in your own strength to be holy, to please God, to live by the rules, etc. is legalism and not walking in the power of the Spirit. Someone mentioned that legalism is not an issue in their church. Look deeply. When legalism is in operation, sin is really rampant but may well be hidden because, after all these churches are perfect, on the outside.
Fear is also rampant in SGM because there is a huge lack of faith and not trusting God, therefore the need for the bubble. If you are not trusting God then you will have to do things to protect yourself and your children. People are so afraid that others with sin will taint them and their children that they live inside this bubble, keeping the world away and other Christians as well. I have just recently realized that the shunning actually goes on inside the church within the membership and not just with those who have left. If you and your children don’t look and act a certain way, then you are shunned and never really accepted especially by those most within the bubble. That’s why so many visitors, especially those with teenagers don’t stay.
Re: just say no-to Kool Aid – I completely agree about the issues of how they change doctrines without really informing the congregants, and sometimes it slowly makes its way to the other churches. They baptism of the Holy Spirit sort of change is one of them. The new change is their belief in baptism. Some churches are now requiring adult baptism by immersion in order to become a member. I know this is the case at the Fairfax church where a friend tried to get the pastors to let him become a member without being rebaptised for over a year to no avail. I do know that the Frederick church though first let all the people who were coming from pres churches to join before they would change the rules. CLC I believe now requires it. The San Diego church let someone I know have their daughter baptized as an infant at another church with their blessing and the pastor told him that they would not be changing their baptism policy – I wonder if they just haven’t go the marching orders yet.
This is a big change from not too long ago, when I was there less than 5 years ago, where many people became members without having been baptized at all. In fact one of the pastors preached and was a pastor, and later got baptized.
SGM changes doctrine and beliefs without warning and announcement – we have seen this with the Va Beach church policy about abusive spouses. This also leads the members to have to base their beliefs on leaders and not the Bible, because the reasoning is usually not fully explained. Many times I have heard the sentiment from members and even CG leaders say “I wish the pastors would tell us the new policy so I knew what to believe now.” Not I wish they would show me so I can see in scripture, but the assumption that whatever the pastors say is right and there is no need to check it. This as much as anything led to our leaving of the church. There is no biblical teaching – no Sunday School and Bible studies are discouraged in Care Group – so there is no ability for the members to know how to discern and see what scripture teaches, they just have to take the pastors word for it. And when items are preached from the pulpit there is never outside scripture supporting interpretations of passages, it is just Josh or CJ’s word that this means this and you are supposed to accept it. The lack of real biblical knowledge, and the fact that the congregants don’t realize it, is frightening. I remember friends of ours who were leaving CLC and looking at churches and visited a church and told me they met with the pastor and the church seemed to be reformed – the pastor believed in God’s sovereignty etc. Now I knew this church was definitely not reformed and I realized how shallow the teaching at CLC had been because the members had no idea what reformed meant and how to discern what other churches really believed. This speaks to SGM lack of biblical teaching and reliance on just believing what the church believes.
Canary,
Yes, me too. I see my old self and even my present tendencies wanting to move back there. It is the old familiar “safe” place to be, especially when I am “obeying” whatever rules I consider important at the moment, not so pleasant when I’m not.
Kool Aid,
You said it so well, “If you are not trusting God then you will have to do things to protect yourself and your children. People are so afraid that others with sin will taint them and their children that they live inside this bubble, keeping the world away and other Christians as well.”
Our CG leader and wife would not allow their children to play with their next door neighbors because their next door neighbors had less stringent rules than they did, although the family were Christians, but not the SG brand. The reason stated id that they wanted to protect their children from them–great evangelism technique.
Skinner and others;
At the initiation of the GO Forward Fund drive about three years back, Josh announced that SGM was in the red. In the year or two that preceded this announcement, many people were laid off. In the mix were many who
helped to build SGM into what it is today.
Those who were laid off discovered that there was little to no severance package for their years served, nor was there to be any unemployment benefits, as non-profit orgs are not a “contributing employer”.
Since the announcement of the go forward fund, there have been more cut backs and layoffs. I have no doubt that this year has be a brutal one for them financially.
The key term here is Unfunded Mandate.
In United States law and politics, unfunded mandates are regulations, or in some cases conditions for receiving grants, that impose costs on state and local governments for which they are not reimbursed by the federal government.
In SGM/CLC unfunded mandates are ministry programs and or ministry positions that the leadership is in faith for. (The larger ones tend to advance the positions of those in faith for said program, and can add a new entry level to the base of the Pyramid).
They are usually not discussed with the membership in advance, however they may be announced with much hype after being implemented. Regardless of how and when they pop up, they still impose costs on SGM members, with the SGM members having no voice or vote in the matter.
The Pastors College was one such animal that was sprung on us. They did take the time to dismantle both Josh’s New Attitude magazine as well as PDI’s/SGM’s monthly publication.
PFR & Skinner,
In your opinion, does Josh run the show at CLC in the typical sgm manner, or is he more of a figurehead/spokesman/salesman?
Nice analysis of “unfunded mandates”, btw..
Just Say No wrote: I have heard recently from 3 different people, all in different “circles” within SGM, that SGM believes that Satan is now bound for a thousand years.
Me: That is straight out of the Jonathan Edwards playbook – he believed that as well. That idea tended to die out at the onset of WWI & WWII. Looks like ceeeeeeejay is still idolizing jonathan edwards and the puritianical movement.
“In fact one of the pastors preached and was a pastor, and later got baptized.”
They forgot to ordain Josh Harris as well. It was covered well.
PFR,
I saw an ordination video, which I think was from 2008, in which they “ordained” a group of guys who were clearly pastors. The doublespeak was odd.
In 2002 SGM changed their doctrine on the baptism of the Holy Spirit to the empowerment of the Spirit. You can find this on line at http://www.sovereigngraceminis.....spirit.pdf. Apparently, they did this because there are now so many reformed believers in SGM churches that they wanted be all inclusive. (I also wonder if it happened because of CJ’s involvement with Dever, Piper and others.) In this article, there is mention of those that believe in the third wave which I believe is where Jeff Purswell lands. The third wavers do not believe in a second experience with the Holy Spirit which differs from the charismatic belief. Quite surprising to those who are charismatic and have been in SGM churches for years, SGM places men as pastors, even sr. pastors who do not have the baptism of the Holy Spirit. To call themselves reformed with a charismatic dimension is deceptive for they have moved so far away from being charismatic.
Jim.
My understanding was that Josh was brought in to advance the name and reputation of SGM. Josh, we were told by CJ, felt that he had reached a plateau, and was feeling led to be discipled in the context of a local church.
It was fun to watch all the restructuring that took place once he arrived.
I would say that he has a level of impunity that the others in SGM do not enjoy, as he came to SGM with as a national figure. That being said, he is still expected to tow the Party line like everyone else.
My observation would be that he is used more as a figurehead/spokesman/salesman. I would add that he also has the role of an internal pitchman/the son that CJ never had. (At least Bob Kauflin had two sons with some musical talent). The hope is that he will continue representing the next generations of SGM while attracting new people from the outside into SGM with his public persona.
Just say no-third wavers are charismatic. John Wimber was one.
Gratefully Disillusioned from SGM, GREAT legalist list. Thank you for sharing it with us.
PFR said: In SGM/CLC unfunded mandates are ministry programs and or ministry positions that the leadership is in faith for. (The larger ones tend to advance the positions of those in faith for said program, and can add a new entry level to the base of the Pyramid).
My question is this: how many of their ministry programs ever become active and alive ministries? In our former SGM church, there really were no active ministries up and running except for children’s ministry, teen ministry and singles. Children’s ministry was Sunday School, the teen and singles ministries met once a month and really, that was it for the ministry. The main ministry that I observed was the pastors going on retreats (and I am not kidding about this).
Also what would they say if we were managing our budgets at home in faith in this way? SGCC did this. They said that 2007 was a “sowing” year and therefore the $1/4 million in the red was ok. Did the members hear that or were they still asleep and blindly trusting their pastors????
Just say no-to Kool Aid
Look into the departure of Lou Engle and Che Ahn for more on your observations on the Spirt and Baptism.
Maybe our congress heard about the “sowing” year from CLC (It is near DC) and that is what we are in right now. After all we sowed about 1 trillion dollars. Can’t wait for the big harvest, because we reap what we sow, right?
Is SGCC in their harvest season now since ’07 was the sowing year? Does anyone know?
Thanks Jim. I will have to study this a little more. My understanding was that the third wavers do not believe in a second experience. Even so, I believe that CJ and crew have gotten far away from the charismatic dimension.
Just Say No said, “I have just recently realized that the shunning actually goes on inside the church within the membership and not just with those who have left. If you and your children don’t look and act a certain way, then you are shunned and never really accepted especially by those most within the bubble.”
Uh, YEAH!!!!!!!!! That was by far the most painful thing about our 15 years there. We loved, served, cared yet were always second class citizens at best.
According to: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T.....oly_Spirit
Each wave identifies with a subtly different theology regarding their claims of encountering the Holy Spirit. Those associated with the First Wave will generally preach the “baptism with the Holy Spirit” as a separate and subsequent experience to conversion which must be accompanied by speaking in tongues in order to be genuine. Those associated with the Second Wave will still tend to speak of a second experience of the Spirit – a baptism or filling of the Spirit, although they will often more readily state that all Christians in some sense have the Spirit. They will also usually state that tongues “usually” accompanies this experience. Those associated with the third wave will tend to identify “baptism with the Spirit” with conversion, and not refer to a second experience of receiving the Spirit. They would prefer to emphasise the ongoing nature of the experience of the Spirit. Tongues may not be emphasised at all, and will usually not feature in public meetings. Some third wave leaders may not speak in tongues.
Just say no-you’re correct-the issue would be the second experience.
Yeah, my wife was marginalized because she worked and didn’t have the 3-4 children being home schooled. I can remember the pain she expressed of not ever feeling like she fit in. Now we are both thankful that we didn’t.
Just say No-
How many of their ministry programs ever become active and alive ministries?
That depends on how you would define active or alive.
They are all active with internal participation, a lot of free “servant” labor and support goes into them. Even the Pastors College receives Gifts of cars, furniture, and housing. The PC wives are lavished with meals, clothes and support.
Alive, that is would they survive without the money shifting from other areas that takes place quite a bit, NO. Being that most of what SGM does is with an internal focus, the “Harvest or Reaping”
Tends to be Spartan.
After 25 years we have a global membership of 40,000. I would feel safe in saying that departures from SGM would be close to ten times that amount. This blog seems to attract more
visitors than SGM has members, to me that speaks in ways I may never fully comprehend or appreciate.
There is an old business adage, for every single critique you hear, there are nine that you don’t.
My fear is that SGM creates not only a financial deficit for itself , but a spiritual one in the name of the Gospel.
Re:3rd wave – A lot of the new so called reformed charismatics are 3rd wave and that is what some CLC pastors are. I was told when i was there that Jeff and Kenneth were 3rd wave and the rest is 2nd wave/charismatics. I was told that the official position of SGM is 2nd wave/charismatic but they allow and encourage the 3rd wave belief. 3rd wavers would say that everyone is baptised in the holy spririt at convertion and then we might have supsequent indwellings/experiences after that. They say this becuase this is what the scripture mostsupports in the Greek. I questioned why CJ and Sov grace in general is 2nd wave and not officially 3rd wave since the only/one of the only persons on staff who can read the scriptures in the original language and is known for being their theology expert is 3rd wave. It seemed that CJ and others didn’t want to deny past experiences even though scripture did not support it.
BTw, in my observation a lot of the change in charismatic character happened not as much becuase of change in beleif but becuase those who leaned charismatic the most went with Schmitt when he got kicked out of CLC and founded immanuals – which is now as large if not larger than CLC and is very very charismatic.
where’s that vomiting icon kris has over at survivor. i feel the need for it after reading all of the above.
PFR said, “My observation would be that he is used more as a figurehead/spokesman/salesman. I would add that he also has the role of an internal pitchman/the son that CJ never had. (At least Bob Kauflin had two sons with some musical talent).”
I agree that Josh seems like a son to CJ, but CJ does have a son–he’s the same age as mine–15. It’s too early to cast aspersions on Chad’s talents. Who knows what the Lord may have in store for this young man (or mine)?
Acme,
Thank you for the clarification. I would agree that it is too soon to cast
any aspersions on the lad. It was not my intention to do so, but I see how
that could of been concluded. My comment came from the position of;
- Not having any faith that CJ would allow his son to beat an individual
path apart from the framework of SGM. Nor do I think that he would be encouraged to rise to such a prominent level independently as Josh did.
- That his son, was not of age when the time came to pick a successor,
and would still be a few years off.
In the context of CLC, it is easy to forget that CJ has a son, and given
all the fuss and promotion that surrounds the Mahaney girls.
I do wonder what expectations are being held for the young man.
Acme
Also, with Bob’s sons, they did not have the opportunity to forge a successful
career as independent Christian musicians, as their father did.
The independent success of Josh Harris, and what he was able to bring to SGM
is something that I just do not see happening with SGM legacy Kids.
Stunned,
I’m with you on the barf icon. I certainly get an education on this site. 1st wave? 3rd wave? Surf’s up, dude!
I have never heard of any of this. I guess I’m simple. Jesus promised to send His Holy Spirit, His Comforter, to us when He left the earth. That Spirit is with me, and has been for a long time. He guides, teaches, edifies, convicts, comforts, laughs, and whispers His heart sometimes. I don’t understand how it all works in the theology department, only that I don’t know what life would be like without Him. I don’t know which wave I caught, but does it really matter?
These posts have actually helped me understand how SGM leadership can work the way it does, as though it has no conscience. If they don’t listen to Jesus, through the Spirit He left us, who the heck DO they listen too? Who guides them? Oh well, maybe this is just too much for my tweety brain. I have to say though, that I don’t know how I would live without the Spirit’s presence in my heart. It would be a loneliness I could not bear.
PFR,
Me thinks you are, or have been, an insider. I appreciate how clear and specific you get with the details. Very informative. Thanks.
The Mahaney girls have followed the SGM prescription for their lives including not going to college, not dating, and not kissing their fiances.
The girl’s husbands were all expected to follow a certain path in order to be eligible to marry the Mahaney girls.
Surely, if CJ’s son-in-laws are defined as being “good son-in-laws” by adhering to SGM teaching, then Chad Mahaney would be expected to do so as well in order to qualify as a “good son”.
And he better. Let’s not forget CJ (with the full support of his wife) kicked Larry out because one of Larry’s sons wasn’t cutting the muster.
Perhaps Carolyn takes credit for how her good daughters have followed in her footsteps, reflecting everything she has taught them and not more. Surely Chad would be expected to take after his dad in order to earn the reputation of being a good son. If the Mahaney’s have established a standard for SGM leaders to follow, which includes the behavior of their children, then surely they must realize that it’s perfectly fair for everyone to expect the young Mr. Mahaney to be a reflection of his father, in the way the good daughters are a reflection of their mother. Anything less than that would be grounds for disqualification. If you think I overstate the matter, one only has to recall how many times CJ has said that his daughters behavior has been what has allowed him to remain qualified to preach. According to his own admission, the same must hold true for his son.
CJ has said that his daughters behavior has been what has allowed him to remain qualified to preach. According to his own admission, the same must hold true for his son.
What a lot of pressure to place on one’s children. And the daughters never went to college? Wow. Just…wow.
Yup canary. Let’s hope the sons-in-laws don’t get laid off because in order to maintain an upper middle class lifestyle in Montgomery Co Maryland like the Mahaney family has enjoyed, you pretty much have to have a job that requires a college degree. And I’m not talking about a Pastor’s College degree. It could be that if times get tough, that radical, revolutionary women-should-all-be homemakers message may need to be tempered just a BIT, know what I mean?
Good grief! Yes, will someone please pass the barf icon!
If the top is sick and the bottom is a result of the trickling down from the top, why are any of us wondering how this ever happened? Mmmmmmm, I am beginning to sound a little like Quizzler 2.
Yep, GD, just like a quizzler. I think I’m beginning to have a better understanding of how it all happened. Somewhere along the way, the Big Guys stopped listening to God, and put Him in a box. He doesn’t speak today, in their minds, except through theolgians like Edwards. This is not how it started out in the early eighties. They HAVE changed their beliefs over the years. Am I wrong? Do we and SGM even read the same bibles? Boy, this leaves me scratching my little head…
Well, we have to impress our new friends (T4G), the heavy hitters in the reformed tradition: Mohler, Piper, Sprowls, MacArthur, Duncan, and Dever. All in that gang, idolize Edwards.
Great comments everyone! Getting back to the $$: PFR, what do you think CJ, leaders and pastors do with the $$? I am really concerned about this because I don’t see $$ going out of SGM for the work of the Gospel. I do agree that there is much activity within the church: Christmas parties, anniversary parties, many gift cards given out, etc. Is this where the $$ is going or is it going into salaries and retirement packages for the leaders?
Where is the Quizzler when you need him/her?
re: Third Wave–Vineyard and the Toronto Blessing crowd are Third wavers…they’re not reformed, they are simply considered as the third working of the Holy Spirit in the 20th century.
They trace back their root to Wagner in the 1980′s.
I think the Third Wavers are the ones that CJM is running away from.
Canary–methinks you just caught the Jesus wave. He calls you. You place your trust in him. He gives you his spirit as a sign and seal,. The Holy Spirit guides and leads you. Pretty straighforward, as you inately know.
These folks must have waaayyyyyy too much time on their hands. Can’t we just let the Spirit do what he wills without boxing him up?
Gratefully–
Mohler, Sproul, Duncan, etc., just go on about their ministries. I don’t think they have the time or energy to worry about CJ.
He seems to me to be the one who panders after them, do you think? None of them, as far as I can tell, gives a hoot about impressing him, being included by him in anything.
Such a little guy!
And poor Chad! Hope you decide to go into auto mechanics, dude! Real man work, good hours, generous pay…think about it, my young brother!
Problem is that I think auto mechanic school is longer and more rigorous than Pastors College, so it would definitely take more time. That’s a bummer.
Where is the Quizzler you ask……….
Checking out the very T4G writings just now mentioned.
Could it be that Mr CJ is now taking a new and enlightened view of things congregational?
Could his signed Affirmations and Denials Document offer a glimpse of a new direction?
Could Article XIV mean that all true and faithful Christians are members of congregations and are encouraged to challenge and even hold eachother accountable?
You be the judge….. read it for yourself
“Article XIV
We affirm that the shape of Christian discipleship is congregational, and that God’s purpose is evident in faithful Gospel congregations, each displaying God’s glory in the marks of authentic ecclesiology.
We deny that any Christian can truly be a faithful disciple apart from the teaching, discipline, fellowship, and accountability of a congregation of fellow disciples, organized as a Gospel church. We further deny that the Lord’s Supper can faithfully be administered.”
Or if this intrigues you read the entire document,,,,,
http://www.t4g.org/pdf/affirmations-denials.pdf
Read carefully, as there may be a quiz later.
Welcome back, RT.
What do you really think?
Awe, Quizzler, finally someone to bring clarity to the situation with just the right question.
Quiz…
I wish. I don’t think the article is referring to polity. It’s more “primacy of the local church” stuff.
Are you ready for the quiz?
A) If all true and faithful Christians are members of congregations, does that include the pastors?
B) If it does, does this mean that the pastors may be held accountable by the rest of the congregation?
C) If the congregation doesn’t include the pastors, are they in a place of extra-enlightened superiority between the congregation and God?
RT,
Grateful sigh…the Jesus wave – now that I can understand.
Quizzler,
Article XIV just seems like another rule on top of all the others they impose on people. According to this rule, John on the Island of Patmos was not a faithful disciple (he was all alone) nor was Paul when he was in prison (he couldn’t go to the local church!). Maybe you know – what bible are they reading???
Quizzler-good one.
A=no
B=no
C=of course
This could be the PC’s final exam…
Well, I was told in my SGland days from one of the staff pastors that “we are the gate keepers,” which meant to me, in the context of our conversation at the time, that the pastors were guarding the sheep within the fence line from the harm outside the fence line. They were, as Quizzler eloquently wrote, “… in a place of extra-enlightened superiority between the congregationand and God.” Would that be an euphemism for “covering” “sheparding,” and “oversight?”
Jim gets an A and moves to the head of the class.
SGM, on the other hand, gets an F for not complying with their own affirmations.
CJ used to say that if you want to know a mans heart, look at his checkbook. This usually before a long sermon on giving. I will not make any judgments here, just answering a few questions.
In 2008 CJ and Carolyn gave their house to one of his son-in-laws. Yes, Gave.
Then they purchased a $675,000 property with a bit more than an acre of land.
The links should work, if not, just cut and paste.
http://sdatcert3.resiusa.org/r.....2002347865
http://sdatcert3.resiusa.org/r.....2001469102
I am sure that you all are savvy enough to use Google earth if you want a look.
I suppose that not all is financial gloom for SGM
Gratefully Dis.,
They were, as Quizzler eloquently wrote, “… in a place of extra-enlightened superiority between the congregation and and God.” Would that be an euphemism for “covering” “sheparding,” and “oversight?”
Actually, I believe that would be CJ’s belief that they “stand in the very stead of God”. Ever seen a canary roll her eyes?
“we are the gate keepers”
Hmmmmm
Are we allowed inside the Kingdom or shall we continue grazing outside its walls?
BTW – When do we get to meet and interact with Jesus??
PFR,
Well, I am guessing that in order to graze inside the fence, one would have to get past the “gate Keeper.”–Sorry, they are the rules!
Canary, I have NOT ever seen a canary roll her eyes, but the cat in the cage doesn’t appear very happy either.
PFR,
That honestly ticks me off. Yes, not all is financial gloom in SGland. PLEASE pass the barf icon. When I think of the starving pastor in Pakistan that we try desperately to help from LITTERALLY starving to death, this make me sick!!!! My pastor friend in Pakistan risks his very life for his people and serves them with every thing he has living in absolute abject poverty–well it is appalling and very sad.
Gratefully Dis.,
Ha – cute. I forgot to add that I feel for your wife and the working – outside - the - home - no - home - school thing. I saw wonderful women drift in and out of SGM because they didn’t think they fit in. Who blamed them, when Brent clearly taught that a woman couldn’t work outside of the home unless her home and family were in order? His kind of order was impossible to reach.
PFR,
God says that only HE can know the heart of a man. Where does CJ GET this stuff? Besides, most of our giving is in secret, so our checkbook would be of no help in discovering how much or where we give. Can I ask someone here, is CJ writing his own book to add to the bible? I mean, really (fluffing my wings indignantly). Plus, it is easy to give your house away when you have a new six hundred and some thousand dollar one waiting for you. And I certainly wouldn’t advertise that I’d done it.
Guess my frustration is showing. I mean, where is the faith, hope, and love in all their theology? Where is Jesus? Think I’ll take a swim in my bird bath to calm down.
Gr. Dis.,
(Your name is getting shorter and shorter!) I find it so wonderful that there are true pastors in the world who will go without in order to spread the word. Those are true shepherds. Risking his life for the Faith - Your friend in Pakistan is truly a rich man in heaven! I’m cheered up. Don’t think I’ll need that bird bath after all!
Yeah, this pastor just loves the Lord Jesus and serves the people that God has placed in front of him. He hasn’t written any books, doesn’t demand anything from his people; he just loves them, serves them and manifest the living, resurrectedJesus out through himself. He lives in a 2 room rented shack with 6 other people, including his wife and baby (total of 7 people)
He is too busy serving his poor friends to head up any T4G conferences or any of the other high profile stuff. If he isn’t able to pay his rent, the “master” (his words) of the house drags him outside and beats him in public humiliation. I could go on and on. What has happened to us?
Here is the property info on the mother ship/CLC
http://sdatcert3.resiusa.org/r.....ype=STREET
Remember that tax assesments in Montgomery County are at 2/3 real value.
Thirty Million!!
They Picked this up last year as well
http://sdatcert3.resiusa.org/r.....ype=STREET
and this…
http://sdatcert3.resiusa.org/r.....ype=STREET
and this…
http://sdatcert3.resiusa.org/r.....ype=STREET
Here are some more things SGM picked up last year..
http://sdatcert3.resiusa.org/r.....ype=STREET
http://sdatcert3.resiusa.org/r.....ype=STREET
Another Million plus in property.
All in the name of the Gospel, right?
Apologies, I duplicated some. Had some trouble posting the links.
Anyway, I am curios as to the big property purchases in the midst of
layoffs. With all the families that are in need right now……
Boy Gratefully, I would rather send money to this Pastor in Pakistan than anyone here in the USA.
RT said, “These folks must have waaayyyyyy too much time on their hands.”
That is what I think of most theologians.
If it is all for the gospel, hows come there are relatively few converts to the faith through SGM efforts? We are talking about mucho dollars. Imagine how much bird seed I could buy!
Stunned,
What is the saying, “Those who can, do. Those who can’t spend all their time reading big, thick books.” Okay, I just made a new quote. Is one of the big books they read actually a Bible? ‘Cause mine doesn’t say the same things as theirs.
Think they can sell some of the properties to feed this guy in Pakistan for 20 years?
Stunned,
I believe you aim to misbehave…
Hee-hee.
Now there’s an idea!
Stunned,
The kind of money that those properties are worth could feed my pastor friend’s whole neighborhood for 20 years.
Canary,
You could buy enough seed for all your friends and even feed that cat in the cage.
My question (sorry Quizzler) is: who is Russell Pope? Also, it seems that some of the acquistions are duplicates or are my eyes playing tricks on me? Seems that we are finding out where some of the $$ is going.
The land CLC bought was one of the last big tracts of farmland in this area of the county. Mr. Pope owned the farm–and has been living in their family home which abuts the rest of CLC property, as per the agreement. I guess he has now sold the family home as well.
Thanks acme! Because the membership would be paying for this land, were they (the membership) involved in any way or notified of the purchase prior to the transaction? Just wondering….
I guess they need breathing room! (bonus point to whoever guesses the origination of that quote!)
That is insane – that’s not even factoring in the clc owned houses for that “great theological seminary” known as Pastor’s College.
Canary wrote: Can I ask someone here, is CJ writing his own book to add to the bible?
Me: I don’t think he is, I am sure he buys into the protestant version of Biblical cannon (as opposed to the catholic, various branches of the orthodox church, asian churchs, african churches). He is writing his own concordance and his own “systematic theology”, with ever single word being inspired and breathed by God.
I find myself disgusted to hear about the lack of Christian charity, much less the poorly-defined missiology of SGM, which I think has been discussed previously elsewhere on another thread started by PK (BTW, I hope he is alright as it has been awhile). I honestly think SGM has some serious growing-up to do.
I have asked my SGM co-worker several times what his church has been doing to help the less well-off on a regular basis as well as supporting missionaries. His response has been less than satisfactory, i.e., very occasional gestures, and even then, only to help SGM-related functions.
Money that SGM spends on lavish houses and property could be more wisely used elsewhere. I think it’s all self-focused and self-glorifying, in short, is my opinion.
I admire and honestly respect the missionaries who go thru so much and work with so little to bring the Word in less-than-friendly countries. How can one send support to this man mentioned by Gratefully Disillusioned?
Freedom,
Oh. Okay. I am certainly not as theoligically informed as the Big Guys seem to be, but then, systematic theology doesn’t feed my soul. Can it be possible for brainiacs to have more passion for their doctrine than for Jesus? Or maybe I don’t have enough theology (after being in PDI for nearly 16 years, is that possible?) to be posting on any of this. I just don’t understand how the good news which was once understandable by a fisherman, is now something the rest of us must get from systemetic theology books. I’m truly puzzled. I guess, like RT said, I’ll just stay on the Jesus wave. That, I understand.
Gratefully Disillusioned, is there any way some of us can contribute to your missionary friend?
Stunned,
Thanks for your heart. If Jim can give you my email address, I could point you in the right direction. I don’t want to include it openly because of obvious reasons.
I am wondering whose name is on the deeds of these properties that CLC has bought? I know that at one time, the sr. pastor and an in-house attorney were the only ones on the deed to our former SGM church and properties. I don’t know if that is still the case today.
So if one day the buildings and land were sold, where would the $$ go?
Just say no-
It looks like the property is owned by CLC, which is a 503c corp. The directors control the assets. In many states, it’s easy to view corporate documents online.
I wouldn’t want to suggest any financial impropriety on SGM’s part. Everything I’ve seen shows that their financial dealings are completely legal.
I would say that the IRS is very generous to licensed ministers. Again, this is all perfectly legal.
Thanks Jim. Legal it may be but I am still wondering why several (that I know of and there may be more) of the SGM churches are in the red and not working within budget. Also, concerned about where their $$ is going since they don’t support missionaries, don’t support the poor and needy, etc., and have very few operating ministries. When we were in a SGM church, we blindly trusted our pastors with our tithe and offerings. There needs to be an accountability structure set up for the finances of the churches and the membership needs specifics on how their tithes are being used to further the kingdom of God.
Just say no-
When we were in a SGM church, we blindly trusted our pastors with our tithe and offerings. There needs to be an accountability structure set up for the finances of the churches and the membership needs specifics on how their tithes are being used to further the kingdom of God.
I agree. I think the membership should start asking some hard questions. Even SGM Inc’s financial statements are vague. Legal, but vague.
You can download SGM Inc’s 07 & 08 audited financial statements here
Jim, you mentioned 503C, which is a perfect segway into something I wanted to ask you last night but didn’t quite know how to introduce the topic. Do you know anything about how, as a 503C, SGM is legally required to conduct business with its membership? For example, does SGM have an obligation to allow for corporate/membership discussion on issues?
I ask, because I’m visiting churches in a new state and city and found this charge against a large local church (non-SGM) where the poster stated: And by law, corporate meetings for 501 c 3 s (Name of Church is Incorporated so to be free from liability, among other things) must be conducted in a way that allows all members to be able to discuss issues with each other, unlike the last one [meeting] where no one was allowed to speak and all the campuses don’t know what each is doing and can’t communicate to each other.
If this poster is correct, 503C’s must allow for business meetings and open discussion. Does this happen within SGM, do you know?
Vague is right! How much do these individule pastors/administrators make and who determines their value which translates into annual salary. Who do they answer to? Who determines CJ’s salary? What guidlines are in place to warrant an annual pay increase, for example? Any insiders know how this is done. I am beginning to sound more and more like the Quizzler.
Remnant-
It depends on their articles of incorporation and by-laws.
I’ve never seen membership involvement allowed in any sgc articles of incorporation documents.
Jim, so it isn’t a mandate, simply by virture of the 503C? Interesting.
So, truly, a member trying to effect a change by the simple act of speaking with a pastor, or even “apostle,” probably has no legal right, according to SGM’s own articles and by-laws.
I wonder, do members have a right to see such articles and by-laws? Are these things public domain?
For those with free time, here is a link to the IRS FAQ for Churches.
http://www.irs.gov/charities/churches/index.html
Jim is correct in that the articles of incorporation and by-laws may affect what and when certain things are to be reportd/discussed.
The articles of incorporation should be public recors and availible at the courthouse.
The articles of incorporation are public domain.
You can find CLC’s here
So members are welcome to give and support but not welcome to investigate or hold the institution that they are giving to accountable.
Is it just me? I’m thinking that the whole setup leads to the potential for corruption or at best the flow of excessive cash to those in charge in a very unhealthy way.
I’m thinking that the whole SGM top heavy power structure is unhealthy and an environment for corruption. They would be so much better off if they had a board of elders who were set in place by the CONGREGATION, not the pastors, who oversaw the workings of the “church.” These elders would have complete access to all the details and decisions of the pastors. Maybe it’s just me?
Gratefully Disillusioned –
You get an A for being a quizzler!
The Quizzler hopes that all who post and read here become quizzlers themselves, and ask tough and insightful questions of their spiritual leaders. Don’t settle for non-answers or dismissive answers from them. Apply your God-given intelect and your knowledge of the Truth as revealed through God’s Word to evaluate all you see and hear.
So, thinking thinking thinking, if SGM were to reform its ways (um, pun not intended and not saying that they want to do so, which is an obvious ‘duh’), they would have to reform itself from the roots up – from the foundational legal incorporating documents. I mean, IF they were to become open to congregational input, congregational elders, congregational anything other than blind sheep….
Am I reading this correctly?
Remnant,
Corps have to re file every year anyway. It’s nothing to change corp docs, and the directors have full discretion.
Very interesting corporate document. In the article 10, where most churches would have members be all church members in good standing over the age of 18, they specifically limit it to the board of governing pastors. They specifically say that while there are church members, they have “no standing, responsibility, or authority for governance of the corporation”.
I find it interesting that it says that it is non religious – wonder what that means, are they set up as a regular 501c3 instead of a church?
I also find it interesting that until 2002 they were officially a dc charter – which more makes it seem that they were setup not as a church but as a non profit organization.
Pres-
Article 10 is standard in SGM.
Hate to be a kill joy, but SGM will never change their polity to anything that resembles congregational. This is not just “we think our way is the biblical standard”, they are actively opposed to congregational church government.
Leadership team=CEO and Board of directors
“apostles” = upper management
Sr. pastors = SVP’s
pastors = middle management
CGL = Sales managers and force
Members and visitors = sales’ men and women and consumer base and customers
When the consumer base stops the revenue flow, only then will those above modify the business plan. Sadly, IMHO, much of what we call “church” is in the business of Christianity, not biblical Christianity. Many, most start out well but get side tracked with the lie and replace LIFE, real life with human, pragmatic fleshly efforts. Most can do “church” without HIS LIFE. It looks good externally, but if you get deep enough, the life is really in the organization, not the organism, HIS body.
Gratefully-
Sadly, IMHO, much of what we call “church” is in the business of Christianity, not biblical Christianity.
Well said. I think I had been a Christian for about 2 months when I realized that what we do on Sunday morning in America bore little resemblance to what I was reading in the NT.
Jim,
I would agree that what we experience here in this present day and age, has little resemblance to what following Christ should look like.
I am troubled that CLC is on record as being a non-religious organization. For a group that proclaims to be so passionate about the gospel, this speaks volumes to me. Or as they might say, exposes a root. I wonder if that has ever been presented to the membership?
Matthew 6:19-21
19″Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. 20But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.
Matthew 19:21
Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”
Luke 12:33
Sell your possessions and give to the poor. Provide purses for yourselves that will not wear out, a treasure in heaven that will not be exhausted, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys.
Acts 4:32-35
32All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of his possessions was his own, but they shared everything they had. 33With great power the apostles continued to testify to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and much grace was upon them all. 34There were no needy persons among them. For from time to time those who owned lands or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales 35and put it at the apostles’ feet, and it was distributed to anyone as he had need.
Since this post started on the subject of legalism, I have a question.
I personally rarely felt “encouraged” to operate with any free will or conscience here at SGM. In my experience, there is a rigid system of conformity with levels of sanctification that compose the layers of SGM leadership and groups. While reviewing the CLC statement of faith, this section struck me as an odd profession.
IX. Freedom of Conscience
We believe in freedom of conscience. One is responsible for his or her own choices and behavior. While God has ordained both civil and spiritual government, we believe each person is still directly accountable to Him. Therefore, pastors and churches can give direction, but all service must be rendered voluntarily, joyfully, and from a free conscience (Romans 14:9-12; Philippians 2:5-8; John 10:14-18).
What I get from this is more of a disclaimer that absolves them from any blame.
Exactly
Well said. That was my experience.
IX. Freedom of Conscience
We believe in freedom of conscience. One is responsible for his or her own choices and behavior. While God has ordained both civil and spiritual government, we believe each person is still directly accountable to Him. Therefore, pastors and churches can give direction, but all service must be rendered voluntarily, joyfully, and from a free conscience (Romans 14:9-12; Philippians 2:5-8; John 10:14-18).
Gee – kind of like how they want kids to obey “immediately, cheerfully and completely”
all service – to who? to them?
How about “each one will give an account for himself?”
And I’m not so sure that Jesus was sweating drops of joy in the hours before he was obedient unto a wicked and cruel death – it was for the joy SET BEFORE HIM Hebrews tells us…BIG difference. So to say we must serve with joy is a ridiculous standard or expectation that ironically BINDS our supposed free conscience, doesn’t it?
considering it was not even something Jesus did, guess what – that means it isn’t a sin to obey/submit/serve without some sort of reservation, hesitation, etc…that is where our faith, hope and love kicks in!!
Man, how can SGM screw this up too?
PFR, not only is it to protect themselves from blame, but it is also to ensure our complete and total obedience. BINDING the conscience IS legalism – to bind what Christ died to set free.
Talk about preaching another gospel!
Howdee!
Ya’ll can sit down now…
SGM with Calvin are correct in assuming that we are all condemned individuals. (remember folks dat thems didn’t write no bible…)
What?
What are ya say’in?
Well’ do ya remember that “thou shalt surely die” lingo?
…remember that age old adage: “stuff happens”
Well’ it happened. What!?!
Adam died. big Ut’O We died too Woops!
But and I mean a big BUT (Not your tail silly)
I’m a say’in God was “In Christ” reconciling the world to himself…
Which means that God took “Our condemnation” and placed it upon Jesus –upon that roman cross on Skull Hill in the big J.
Jesus then said: “It is finished” (“It is finished” is a translation of the Greek word tetelestai, the perfect indicative passive tense of the word telos, which means to end; to bring to completion; to bring to a conclusion; to complete; to accomplish; to fulfill; or to finish. ) >Whew< (what a mouthful!)
God then said that is the end of it. Period!
He said what?
Poof….
Surprise, no more condemnation “for all those in Christ Jesus” friends!
Nany, Nany, BoBo……..
Kick your red tail devil………Cuz I ain’t your whipping boy no mo!
But I might be wrong….Ha! Ha! What!?
Ya all can go back ta wipp’in yourselves if ya wanna!
or let somebudy else do it for dat matter…
Don’t give me no never mind.
But I can assure ya it is bedder ta do it Jesus’ way; (To trust, to kling, to rely on…datz faith folks!)
Trust’in on Christ’s finished work.
Yep, I read it right dare in da scriptures…
Works fer me!
Yep. dats what I’m a gonna do….
yes sir ree Bob…
or is dat Jim, Ha! Ha!
Sopwith
Interesting lifestyle developments -
If CLC and other SGM fellowships have financial problems now, think what happens if they try to keep up with Che Ahn’s architectural style. Take a look at their current church building in the former World Wide Church of God’s Ambassador Auditorium:
http://theambassadorauditorium.com/
http://www.harvestrockchurch.org/
Ok,
So if size, scale, collection of wisdom, discernment, provision, and anointing are all signs of Gods blessing and grace. Knowing that these things serve as ”confirmation” of SGM’s self-appointed leaders. Adding the notion of grace being something that we can all attract more of by being more humble, according to CJ). Reviewing that in SGM, part of humility is partly demonstrated by a Joyful submission to your church leaders…
Then how would SGM explain this??
“Senior Pastors Dr. Che and Sue Ahn welcome the community to services. Ahn is founder and president of Harvest International Ministry, a worldwide network of more than 1,400 churches and ministries on five continents”.
Fourteen thousand Churches!!! Just who is “attracting” more of God’s grace and provision? He openly disagreed and left!
BTW -Abba Loves You Conference Speakers: Steve Chua and Chuck Pierce No registration or admission fee.
No fee!! No cost to attend. Why would you not charge for such an event? What about the $$? SGM are you taking note??
I know that the gospel is not a competition. I know little of Che’s teachings.
However;
By the standard by which SGM exalts and affirms itself, it would seem that they have, and are, failing!
Inward, not outward
groaning, not growing
It’s members are empowered to do nothing but attend and submit.
How many times have I heard CJ or Josh say how much God has given us when referring to the facilities and resources of CLC/SGM. How much wisdom and discernment goes into every decision through the council of many Elders?
So, how did they miss the apparent gifting and talents of this man?
A separate thought;
Colossians 1:22 (New International Version)
22But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—
Why are we at SGM still flogging ourselves?? Why do our leaders repeatedly forget this, and are quick to ignore this??
Juli,
PFR, not only is it to protect themselves from blame, but it is also to ensure our complete and total obedience. BINDING the conscience IS legalism – to bind what Christ died to set free.
Talk about preaching another gospel!
Thank you!
Juli.
I would agree that this is not what SGM would call Joyful Submission
Matthew 27:46
About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?”—which means, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”
I now understand why SGM likes Calvin.
On October 27, 1553 John Calvin, the founder of Calvinism, had Michael Servetus, the Spanish physician, burned at the stake just outside of Geneva for his doctrinal heresies!(1) Hence, the originator of the popular doctrine of “once saved, always saved” (known in certain circles as “the perseverance of the saints”) violated the cry of the Reformation — “Sola Scriptura” — by murdering a doctrinal heretic without Scriptural justification. This event was something Calvin had considered long before Servetus was even captured, for Calvin wrote his friend, Farel, on February 13, 1546 (seven years prior to Servetus’ arrest) and went on record as saying:
“If he [Servetus] comes [to Geneva], I shall never let him go out alive if my authority has weight.”(2) Evidently, in that day Calvin’s authority in Geneva, Switzerland had ultimate “weight.” This is why some referred to Geneva as the “Rome of Protestantism”(3) and to Calvin as the “Protestant ‘Pope’ of Geneva.”(4)
Oh no, he didn’nnnnn!
What a visual offense! Another reason God will judge California first- horridly, tacky architecture.*
* that was a joke. **
**sort of.
My ancestor Sarah Barnes was drowned around 1635 for not going to church.
Not So Anxious Anymore –
The Quizzler wonders if Sarah Barnes was the subject of Puritan practices?
I was off on the name ,year and how she died.
Mary Barnes-accused
Execution of Mary Barnes , although a diary of William Goffe, who was in hiding and under suspicion himself at the time , made notation in his diary … “Jan. 20, 1662, three witches were condemned a =t Hartford Fe b.24, 1662.” It is believed one of these was Mary Barnes.It is also assumed that she was hung “up past Thomas Barnes old time Hartfordhomesite , near a prolongation of a northwesterly road alongside the Cow Pasture. Th is site was about a mile from the jail and a little back from a main road into the country. This was perhaps the Via Dolorosa of Mary Barnes’ last earthly journey for it was believed she had sold her soul to Satan. She left three childr en, undoutbedly interror of these events. Her crime… she did not attend church; this verdict from those who had fled religious persecution in Europe. An irony to be sure!
She had company, consider Ann Hutchinson
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anne_Hutchinson
Puritins don’t have a good reputation for the way they treat women especially women with an opinion.
PFR,
Considering Che’s recent “apostolic commissioning” of Todd Bentley, I’m not sure his “gifting” is missed.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVdY9ufJmz8
Wow, women martyrs. How can anyone follow the doctrines of a man, Calvin, who had someone burned to death? Too many times in history have “Christians” killed others for not following the rules. This is not the true gospel, needless to say. You can see this sort of conscience/behavior control growing in SGM (not that they are killing anyone, but the control certainly kills faith). So they have taken what they like in Calvin, and ignored the rest?
I well remember Che from the U of MD – he had a bit of an outreach there – back in, oh, 1979 best of my recollection. He was a jovial, faith-filled young man. We’d tool around in his car - was it a bug? – singing songs of praise. What glorious fun!
Anyway, to think of the direction he’s gone – sigh – where in the world did he get the impression that he was qualified or appointed by the Holy Spirit to commission apostles???? And, come on, Che, Todd Bentley? How do you justify qualifying him, of all people!
Shaking my head.
Burning “witches”, people accused of “heresy”, etc. This is the historical “reformed” theology that sgm has imbraced. The puritanical “classics” (need barf smiley here), written by the same folks accusing people of “witchcraft” and “heresy”.
The “witches” where most likely women who spoke their minds, or didn’t “attend church”. “Heresy” was anyone that didn’t agree with the puritanical version of calvinism……. Let’s look at the end result of the areas (Mass, new england areas), they are among the most “culturally liberal” in this country outside of CA, pro gay marriage, pro abortion, etc, etc. Interesting that the areas once under puritanical control are now part of the areas of the US farthers from the bible belt.
Freedom,
Excellent points. Wonder when the day will come when we bloggers will be called “heretics”?
Just for clarification, it appears that Che Ahn was involved in this “commissioning” of Tod Bentley before last summers revival and thus before Bentley’s marital problems came out.
Doing it this at that time, doesn’t remove all of the questionable practices but at least is better.
Canary,
Plenty of bloggers are heretics…so we might as well start now.
And by the way, Freedom
The “puritans” who wrote the “classics” (and some really did, by the way, write classics on the grace and goodness of God) were not the same people as hunted “witches”. That’s the problem with historical labels. The God, grace, and truth loving Puritans of the early Puritan revivals not only wrote and preached some classics, but did more for the right treatment and dignity of women than any group had done for many, many years before them. This is a very different group of people than the much later “Puritans” who had lost the grace of the Doctrines of Grace, abandoned much of the Gospel, and persecuted people largely for political gain.
This defense is coming from somebody who fully agrees that SGM and others have dangerously idolized (and often misinterpreted) the Puritans and who has no desire to bring back the excesses and imbalances of even the better of these folks. That said, much of the truth and grace tradition that many of you enjoy now is deeply indebted to the vision through trials of fire that the experience of these often slandered people left as a heritage to those that follow.
Just something to think about…
And before Calvin is himself torched on a blog-stake…
Well, let’s just say we should be careful of generalities and broad-stroke judgments that ignore historical perspective and write off completely those who make many (and even some inexplicable) mistakes. If we make a habit of this, Calvin and I will have a lot of company out in the cold.
Besides…I love Hobbes (his alter-ego stuffed tiger).
We have to remember this…at Calvin’s time, pretty much only the church of Rome was existent. Calvin was moving away from Rome, into dependence on the Word alone, on grace alone. Was much messed up? Yes. Was much good, was the gospel advanced? yes.
It is not like you could worship at the people-burning church, or else go to your friendly charismatic church down the street.
the Bride of Christ had a long way to ‘come back’ in Calvin’s time.
Take a read through some of the Puritan writers…clay pots, like all of us, but focused on God. And didn’t he redeem them, refusing to allow them to hold heresy and spiritual abuse?
All of us are ‘descendants’ of Calvin in one way or another. We must eat the watermelon and spit out the seeds.
And I do beg you not to think for a minute that SGM is reformed. It is not.
Taking Note – My points were referring to the puritans that came to America AKA the Pilgrams,. I know there are multiple sects of purtians dating back to the 1500′s. I’ve rad some of the “classics” and haven’t been a big fan. Most people (myself included) love to beat up on “sinners in the hands of an angry God”. There is so much to the puritanical movement that can be studied – it’s a graduate course in itself. It is interesting how much of the puritan movement has been repackaged over the years. On surviviors, people have made note of how some of sgm is repackaged gothardism, which in itself had a good deal of repackaged purtianism. How the puritans treated women and where patrichial was passed right on down to SGM - I guess we should have seen it coming. The puritan movement, in general, was full of legalism.
Calvin and Hobbes was awesome! I miss that strip! (Along with The Far Side and Bloom County!) Calvin (the old duth dude) did some pretty bad stuff – there’s another interesting case. Anyone ever been to amsterdam? I’ve been there, walked through the red light district – the stories about “window shopping” for prostitutes are true, as are the “coffee houses” that don’t sell coffee. It’s interest that Calvin’s land is now one of the most “culturally liberal” on the planet. I have Dutch friends and I love to joke that they have a low crime rate because everything is legal! It’s amazing what can happen over time to people oppressed by legalism. But, Calvin would say the dutch today must not be God’s elect. Note – I don’t think anyone has ever called me a Calvinist or reformed in my thinking. I tend to be more emerging (much like I tend to be more libertarian in my political thinking!)
yeah, the Puritans were rather jacked up - fortunately they were SO jacked up and their beliefs didn’t stick, so that they died out with them.
that is, until some yahoo decided to resurrect the DEAD doctrines they teach.
gee, thanks, whoever you are. I’m sure it was someone wanting to make a buck.
Yah Juli, there’s real money in reprinted Puritan literature (sarcasm intended).
It is a shame that so many seem to have bought wholesale the slanderous and silly stereotypes of folks like the Reformers and early Puritans.
Like it or not, friends, everyone on this blog owes a debt of gratitude to the heritage of grace, truth, and joy (yes, joy) that these deeply passionate, deeply flawed men of history handed down to us. They labored (many at risk to their lives) in defense of the liberties, gospel hopes, and freedom of conscience that are valued so deeply through out the pages of these blogs.
Their flaws and blind-spots were very real and giving them undue celebrity or authority is silly and careless – but the real people of those seasons of history deserve to be admired and thanked, not to be made into ridiculous “straw-men” who are now burned at blog-stakes for things they neither believed nor practiced.
Praise God, the truths that so many mocked and disparaged truth-warriors of history died for are the exact opposite of “dead doctrines”. Whatever their errors or excesses – Kill the doctrines they loved most and you kill the hope of your soul.
Taking Note – you really believe the Puritans fought for our freedom of conscience?
what history books are YOU reading? Seriously? Everything they did was to BIND the conscience! Even children’s books mentioning the Puritans, including personal journals, speak of their rigid lifestyles, condemnation of others, persecution of people, and total LACK OF GRACE.
I’m sorry to be the one to tell you this, but you better re-read your history. And not just take the word of some present-day theologian who is peddling Puritan teachings for the Pharisee of today.
Legalism, judgement of others, constant focus on indwelling sin..these are teachings that help somehow to give HOPE to our souls? to YOUR soul?
Their teachings are doctrines of death. They preach another gospel according to God’s Word.
Jesus died so we would be free from the guilt of sin, he warned against the leaven time and again..it is impossible to have a clear conscience and therefore a life of faith, by believing the leaven they preached.
woww..
OK, I have to share just a few lines from the infamous Valley of Vision just to illustrate the heart of these writings, and how there is NO progression past personal sin, guilt, condemnation, feelings of unworthiness, etc…it’s truly pathetic how manipulative it is and why people wonder the many complaints about not moving past the Cross to a victorious life. I can’t believe I ever read this crap. I am assuming we can still say crap on here Jim, right?
(my apologies upfront, but I am trying to illustrate a point - WARNING – do not read further if you do not want to feel condemnation for your sins and have SGM flash backs!)
pg. 107: “When I review my past guilt and am conscious of my present unworthiness..”
p. 13 “Such joys for so vile a rebel!”
“Let wrath deserved be written on the door of hell”
p 14 “for if I do not walk holily before thee, how can I be assured of my salvation?”
p15 “But oh how I mourn my sin, ingratitude, vileness, the days that add to my guilt”
“my sin-soiled conscience”
p 25 “Deliver me from the natural darkness of my own mind, from the corruptions of my heart..”
p50 “I bewail my coldness, poverty, emptiness, imperfect vision, languid service, prayerless prayers..”
ok, needless to say there is TONS more but my stomach is already churning and I’m guessing others might be too.
And I wonder why I had no joy in SGM…hmm..and how I was so defeated and depressed…and how I was able to be manipulated and “Kept down” below the leaders and dependent on them…hmm..maybe it was the copies of Valley of Vision the pastor would lay across the pews for each of us on Sundays..like an idiot I went out and bought my own copy.
I think I will have a bonfire this weekend.
anyway..no one here (I don’t think so anyway) is saying of that we are without sin – but certainly anyone can see that this constant dwelling on it does exactly the opposite of bringing life- it KILLS the soul. BALANCE.
This type of thinking is why people hate God. After reading this funk, God to them becomes this pissed off Father in the sky that is mad and they aren’t sure why but they have these images of him throwing lightening bolts and they aren’t ABOUT to go to him in faith, when for crying out loud..they’re freaking out! It’s much easier for them to just deny He doesn’t exist than deal with all that guilt and fear.
Is THIS the God of love and mercy and endless grace of the Bible? When I read these words from the Puritans, I don’t see my Father there AT ALL. And I didn’t see Him there before either – what emerged from the words of so much of what I read during my SGM-prison term was this false image of God that I created in my total desperation and fear and guilt. I wasn’t willing to stop believing He existed, but I certainly stopped believing He loved me, or that He would or could forgive me.
BINGO! The following part of the post is the lifestyle culture of SGC Chesapeake down to a tee:
I suspect that some of you are either legalists or, more likely, the victims
of legalism. You live in fear of doing something that another Christian
considers unholy, even though the Bible is silent on the subject. You are
terrified of incurring their disapproval, disdain, and ultimate rejection.
Live Wire
The Quizzler wonders………………
A) were you under legalistic bondage?
B) freed by the working of the Holy Spirit?
C) walking now in freedom?
D) experiencing a renewed joy in Our Lord Jesus?
E) all of the above?
The Quizzler also wonders why the SGC down in Chesapeake is “reducing” its staff?
Interesting part of an article on puritans from Wikipedia:
The relationships within the nuclear family, along with interactions between the family and the larger community, distinguished Puritans from other early settlers. Authority and obedience characterized the relationship between Puritan parents and their children. Proper love meant proper discipline; in a society essentially without police, the family was the basic unit of supervision. Disciplining disobedient children mostly derived from a spiritual concern: a breakdown in family rule indicated a disregard of God’s order. “Fathers and mothers have ‘disordered and disobedient children,’” said the Puritan Richard Greenham, “because they have been disobedient children to the Lord and disordered to their parents when they were young.” Thus disobedient parents meant disobedient children. Because the duty of early childcare fell almost exclusively on women, a woman’s salvation necessarily depended upon the observable goodness of her child.
Puritans connected the discipline of a child to later readiness for conversion. Accordingly, parents attempted to check their affectionate feelings toward a disobedient child, at least after the child was about two years old, in order to break his or her will. This suspicious regard of “fondness” and heavy emphasis on obedience placed complex pressures on the Puritan mother. While Puritans expected mothers to care for their young children tenderly, a mother who doted could be accused of failing to keep God present. Furthermore, Puritan belief prescribed that a father’s more distant governance check the mother’s tenderness once a male child reached the age of 6 or 7 so that he could bring the child to God’s authority.
- Sounds lot like sgm’s views…….
An SGM defender may say that from the depths of our unworthiness, our view of the cross, and where we were brought from, should be the source of joy.
To keep and maintain that perspective and appreciation for the cross, we must remind ourselves of our wretchedness, lest we forget our true nature and become arrogant.
For me it was always more that sufficient to know that God loved me so much, that he was willing to sacrifice his son to be reconciled.
Besides;
I would feel strange reminding me of my singleness, and what I was like when I was single, simply to better “appreciate” the fact that I was married. I know my spouse would prefer that I not use my time in that way.
Nor would I conger up much that was relevant to who I am today.
I stand whole-heartedly by my earlier comments based on a thoughtful understanding of the historical circumstances, gospel beliefs, real excesses, rich contributions, fierce trials, undeniable failings, and deeply valuable legacy of early strands of these the non-conformists (Puritans) who labored in the Scriptures, experienced great revival, championed the great doctrines of God’s grace, and often lost their lives for the New Covenant doctrines that, yes, are the hope of your soul and without which no one has hope.
And, yes, the early Puritans (like the much-maligned reformers before them) labored for freedom of conscience as few ever have, in a world dominated by monarchy and papal oppression. And they would have been heart-broken to see some of their Puritan-in-name-only descendants later trample on the consciences of others.
Beyond these restatements of earlier reminders, I simply won’t argue with you. Wikipedia characterizations, authoritative declarations of practices and beliefs that are rooted in popular caricature but not historical substance, random quotes that are declared to be the sum of all Puritan belief, etc. – there is no basis for thoughtful dialogue in these kinds of ultra-dogmatic, straw-man, slash and burn arguments.
If you label everyone with their weakest points and defame anyone who was not always right when they fought for truth against every tide and storm. then you will have no one left that you can admire and learn from and no one left to listen to but yourselves.
So, I simply stand by my earlier general comments – reminding you only that I oppose Puritan-adoration, have taught about their dangerous inclinations and flaws, and fully acknowledged from the beginning of this brief discussion that there are many hues to the Puritan story, both delightful and deeply disappointing.
Juli,
Very well said, my sister.
I also just cannot agree with this statement posted by Taking Note: “ Kill the doctrines they loved most and you kill the hope of your soul.” The Hope of my soul is Jesus Christ, not doctrine. Maybe I’m mistaken, but it seems that I have noticed this: some of those who speak about doctrine so lovingly and with such passion, sometimes omit this same emotion for the only Hope of my soul, Jesus. By the time we left our SGM church, we rarely if ever heard the name of Jesus spoken, let alone admired passionately, except sometimes in worship. However, we did hear about having passion for doctrine quite a lot. It was an imbalance that effected the whole Body in a negative way. Just my observations.
Taking Note,
I wish to add that I wasn’t picking on you personally in my above post. I like your last paragraph:
“So, I simply stand by my earlier general comments – reminding you only that I oppose Puritan-adoration, have taught about their dangerous inclinations and flaws, and fully acknowledged from the beginning of this brief discussion that there are many hues to the Puritan story, both delightful and deeply disappointing.”
Could you possibly give us some quotes from Puritan writings that are “delightful”? It would help to balance this discussion. Thanks.
Canary,
I understand and appreciate the heart behind your distinction between Jesus and “doctrine” (by which you seem to mean big thick books of human theologies and dogmatic personal viewpoints). But this is not a distinction that exists in the Scriptures.
Doctrine (a biblical term) simply means a teaching or a life affecting truth. Jesus – who He was, what He did, how He loved, wept, died, lived and ascended in glory to prepare a wedding feast for His beloved bride…this is eternal and life transforming “doctrine”. We know of Jesus and the hope of life only because it was doctrine – that is, teachings sent by God through His Son, prophets, apostles, and His people.
The apostle Paul writes to Timothy in 1 Timothy 1:8-11 to shut down legalism and foolishness and all that he says “is contrary to the sound doctrine that conforms to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me.”
You see, your love for Jesus and all the joyful realities He brings to your life is a love of “the sound doctrine that conforms to the glorious gospel.”
That’s all I meant (and continue to mean) by saying that if you kill the doctrines (eternal truths/teachings) that the Puritans loved most you kill the hope of your soul. It is because the teachings from God’s amazing Word that these folks loved most (for all their flaws and other stumblings) were the “doctrines” from God of delightful, saving grace, through Jesus alone, by faith alone, to the glory of God alone.
Hi Canary,
I didn’t see your second comment until now. Thank you for the thoughtful tone of your question.
I won’t give a bibliography of Puritan writings right now (frankly, I’m not a big one for recommending that people plow into long, old writings that are often dense, wordy, and hard to understand
).
What I will say is that the vast majority of preserved, early Puritan writings are not about sin, wrath, and judgment the way many state or imply. The largest amount of their works is about Christ, the Gospel, the work of the Holy Spirit, etc.
John Owen is an ironic example. I don’t particularly enjoy plowing through his thousands of hard-to-read written pages, so I rarely do; but contrary to what many would assume, he wrote far more about Christ and the Gospel than he did about sin. His two large volumes on sin and mortification are, in my opinion, unfortunate in a number of ways; but they are also a small fraction of what he wrote.
Owen himself (a man who is passionately despised, I would guess, by many on this site) wrote a rich exploration of how our lives are saved by grace and transformed by grace in his book “The Glory of Christ”. It is a deeply thoughtful (still dense and hard to read – as was the style of the era) exposition of the beautiful vision for Christian living that is offered in 2 Corinthians 3:18.
The problem is that most folks only know the Puritans through bookstores, sermon quotes, or “Valley of Vision” type repackaging that reflects more of the perspectives and tone of the recommender/quoter than it reflects of the heart of the Puritans and their library full of writings.
For that matter, even a “Valley of Vision” re-packaging offers some of the delightful, grace-absorbed material that you ask for, though not with the richness that a bigger picture of the Puritans and their hearts would offer.
QUOTE“Fathers and mothers have ‘disordered and disobedient children,’” said the Puritan Richard Greenham, “because they have been disobedient children to the Lord and disordered to their parents when they were young.” Thus disobedient parents meant disobedient children. Because the duty of early childcare fell almost exclusively on women, a woman’s salvation necessarily depended upon the observable goodness of her child.END QUOTE
Freedom….this explains alot of what I experienced….the judgmental and dismissive attitudes of other parents who had been blessed with “easy” children towards me and my kids when I did everything that they did in parenting X10. >sigh<
Taking Note,
Thanks for responding.
“I understand and appreciate the heart behind your distinction between Jesus and “doctrine” (by which you seem to mean big thick books of human theologies and dogmatic personal viewpoints). But this is not a distinction that exists in the Scriptures. ”
This is NOT what I was saying. I love scripture, and do my best to understand it. Doctrine today, on the other hand, is something that men use to try to explain their understanding of scripture. The problem is, we don’t all agree with some interpretation, which is why we need the eyes and ears of the Holy Spirit. Puritan, reformed, whatever…seem to interpret scripture more in a legalistic manner, which is not what Jesus intends for us to do.
Respectfully, you also speak of Jesus as though we should not or cannot have a live, personal relationship with Him, where He speaks, we listen, He comforts, we worship, etc. I saw a lot of this in PDI before we left. The leaders seemed condescending towards our heart for the Lord. We weren’t throwing out scripture, mind you. We were trying to live it, and were not allowed to follow our own consciences. If I have misunderstood this about your post, I apologize.
“The apostle Paul writes to Timothy in 1 Timothy 1:8-11 to shut down legalism and foolishness and all that he says “is contrary to the sound doctrine that conforms to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me.”
The glorious gospel Paul speaks of here is what I have been posting about a lot. My point is always, legalism is contrary to good doctrine. It is a false gospel, the leaven mixed in with the whole lump of dough, the stuff that Paul urged churches to purge themselves of. The Puritans may have had some good doctrine, but they also had a bunch of the leaven, which eventually grew and grew, till the whole dough was fermented. Then it died out. Read 1 Cor. 5:6-7.
Today, men are reviving some of this doctrine, the good with the leaven That leaven has proceeded to do what it always does – it is fermenting the gospel. No longer are we free to follow our own conscience, or listen to the Holy Spirit (guided by scripture, of course), nor are we, in controlling churches, allowed to have Jesus alone as our Mediator. This is very troubling, and faith destroying. How many people have come on here and other blogs, saying that when they left or were “dismembered”, their faith in God was nearly gone, because of all the abuses they had experienced or seen? These are the people we want to reach out to, to make sure they understand that the false gospel (legalism) was what nearly destroyed them, not the “glorious gospel of the blessed God”.
So, take what is good with the Puritans and the Reformed guys, but beware of all the leaven that caused their groups to die out. It will happen again to any group that practices their ways but are not wise enough to purge out the leaven. I have to go out for now, but look forward to your response. I have learned from your posts, coming a little closer to understanding why SGM has become the taskmaster most of us here see now. If you are not one of those people, please, I apologize again.
Ellie,
I despise parents judging other parents. I despise the memories of myself doing that when I was a Pharisee. You are in a unique place with your kids, and are trusting God as you raise them. It hasn’t been easy, yet you stick with it. You stick with the Lord. Your way has been rougher than some. No one who has not walked in your house slippers (more comfy than shoes!) can judge you. Jesus does not judge, but saves. How should we, His children, dare to behave any differently? Remember, some of those holier than thou leaders’ kids have had some serious troubles in their late teens. How to explain that?
Grrrrrr…if I could stand in front of those who made you feel like a rotten parent, I’d shake them til all that leaven flew out their ears! You keep trusting God and loving your kids. It will all turn out right in the end, because all things work out for good for those who love God! Hugs, Ellie
Taking Note, you said:Owen himself wrote a rich exploration of how our lives are saved by grace and transformed by grace in his book “The Glory of Christ”.
I have not read this work, but I’ve read enough of Owen to hedge a hefty bet that his backdrop and presupposition for saving grace is our own sinfulness and ongoing recognition of it, and that even grace itself is not defined by looking to the character of God Himself, but rather characterized and understood only in the context of OUR WRETCHED HEARTS..am I right? Is He able to explain what grace is and how that transofrmation takes place without using personal guilt as leverage?
this is the problem with the vast majority of Puritan mindsets which is so pervasive in their writings- instead of the starting point being the character of God and who He is, these doctrines assume the starting point is US and that is the first mistake. They presuppose:
1) We cannot really know God apart from knowing our sin
2) it is only in the context of our own character (or lack thereof) that we can comprehend what grace is
I say – rubbish! Both are outright distortions of Scripture – Romans 1, Jeremiah 32 and many other places in Scripture clearly teach us and show us that we CAN know who God is (and his eternal attributes!) apart from an awareness of sin. Jesus came and died to cleanse us from all unrighteousness and justify us..to cleanse our consciences, remove the guilt…so why does man teach the complete opposite? That this very GUILT that Jesus died to remove from those with faith, man heaps upon those members of the household of faith IN ORDER to produce repentance of some sort? I’m lost here. I thought the Word said it was God’s KINDNESS that leads us to repentance, not our guilty consciences..it is the knowledge of God and His character that promotes and encourages a response of faith.
Talk about undermining the work of Christ and preaching another gospel..the Puritans did.
“An SGM defender may say that from the depths of our unworthiness, our view of the cross, and where we were brought from, should be the source of joy.”
“Should” be the source of joy. Are they on crack?
Ellie Wrote: Freedom….this explains alot of what I experienced….the judgmental and dismissive attitudes of other parents who had been blessed with “easy” children towards me and my kids when I did everything that they did in parenting X10. >sigh<
Me: These would be the parents that never had a strong-willed child, or a child with a development delay that slows the processing of what you say to them. That is just insane – if a parent loves their kids, works with their kids to raise them right, they (in the sgm defender’s words) get over it. The developmental delay is a real thing that exists more than most people are aware – it has to do with their the way their brain works and neurons fire. Those kids need different strategies, beating them every time to don’t obey immediately, cheerfully and completely does not work. You have to do different things in order to stimulate the growth of their brain pathways so that they are OK as they grow up. When you beat them, they do not understand why they are being spanked, when they are diciplined, they don’t know why and don’t even think they did anything wrong because it isn’t processing. (I AM NOT SAYING THAT IS THE CASE WITH YOUR KIDS) and could be with the others they have judgemental attitudes towards because the kids don’t obey “immediately, cheerfully and completely”. These people could use a little (OK, alot) of the back end of the Lord’s staff, if you know what I mean
Taking Note – I am not condeming you, I am ALL FOR discussion!!!!! I have NO ISSUES listening to other view points!!!!!!!!! I just happened to not be a fan of the puritans or reformed theology. Everything the puritans did was based around salvation (ok, so they called it “justification”) by works. Not much different than the Catholic church (sacraments, etc). A whole of guilt trips to go around. The start of the puritanical movement (and Calvin’s own work to boot) is not far removed from the catholic church at the time. My biggest issues with the catholic church are the guilt (there is a reason for the expression “catholic guilt”) and legalism of how to be “justified”.
The puritans also used guilt and confronting those other felt where “in sin”. Granted, some of those were bruned at the stake and SGM just shuns people that don’t “repent”. But it is heavily steeped in the common defination of legalism we are using on this blog.
sgm talkes about grace too – but look how it is applied, the same way the puritans applied it – since juli tackled that one, I won’t beat a dead horse.
The issue is that the puritans applied the writings on grace to works for “justification”, even though last I checked some guy name Jesus took care of that when he was executed.
Another interesting factoid, many of the puritan leaders felt the state should punish people for “sin”, and they did just that when the “great migration” of the puritans to america (did you know they primarily came as families, because the woman was expected to keep house and “home-school” the children?).
As far as the “chew the meat, spit out the fat and bones” – sure, I can do that, but when it is a really fatty, grizzly, dry piece of meat I will selected something else. It’s kind of like this show currently airing on the Smithsonian channel called “Decoding Christianity” – some really good insight into Christian history. Not all of the guy’s facts are straight – like when he called Mary Magdalen the “repentant prostitute”, which I do not see as true, but more manufactured primarily by Pope Gregory back in the day as a way to not supress the role a woman had in Jesus’ ministry and life. Heck, she was up with the Apostles (the REAL apostles, not the sgm self proclaimed variety) received the power of the holy spirit and gifts to boot!
I like the discussion, please do not think I am attacking you. This is a good thing – better to discuss than to attack. I am not going to call you a “heretic” because we disagree.
Stunned – Yes, they are on a “spiritual crack” that they were sold that causes SEVERE withdrawal when taken away – btw John Immel said that way before I did, but I am stealing it from him – don’t tell him! hehe
he’s far more clever than I
I’ve experienced some of this myself lately – and it is very much like withdrawal from crack or any other addiction – disclaimer: I’ve never been a actual crack addict personally, but addictive behaviors in general, no matter the source of individual dependency, is unhealthy and detrimental dependency on something else, and eventually the “something else” enslaves you and you are an addict. I’ve certainly been enslaved to many things before..the Bible calls this idolatry I believe? Just sayin’ . . .
So I think “SGM Crack” is a good way to describe what I’ve been through..
For what it’s worth, I agree with RT and Taking note that you need to take the Reformers and Puritans in their historical context before passing judgment on their long history.
I do agree with Juli about Valley of Vision and Owens SIn and Temptation. I found them discouraging and boring-but that’s me. And I do think that often times the Puritan movement fell into legalism and other times they merely repeated the sins of their culture-much like most of us do also. Burning people at the stake is certainly horrific and clearly sinful-especially over doctrinal differences-but in the time of the Puritans-this was a commonplace practice for both civil and church authorities throughout the Western world. The Puritans and Reformers many times faced this same type of persecution and is one of the reasons the Pilgrims came to the “New World”. Not to regurgitate-but if you really need to know-their are some great books, both Christian and Non that do a really good job of explaining the Puritans (both Old World and New) in their historical context, warts and all. The truth is out their-as they say.
The problem I see with SG’s use of any historical church movement or confession, is that they do not equip their people to discern the good and the not so good found in any church at any point in church history. Heck-the New Testament church was a mess most times (read Paul’s letters some time). If they truly want to help people learn from a historical movement like the Puritans or the Reformers-than they need to teach it with humility and the nuance required to make it helpful and not with broad sweeping absolutes about how great the Puritans were without acknowledging that some Puritans and some Puritan practices/doctrines would not be helpful or Godly for today’s believer to imitate. I’m not holding my breath-SG is not known for allowing nuance in their teaching-but what a loss for them and their flocks…
Anyway-abother unrelated question-
How can CLC say they are a non-religous entity? That ranks up their in the “George Orwell” type of statements-can someone explain that one too me? I am just baffled about how a church can make such a claim….
musicman wrote: Burning people at the stake is certainly horrific and clearly sinful-especially over doctrinal differences-but in the time of the Puritans-this was a commonplace practice for both civil and church authorities throughout the Western world. The Puritans and Reformers many times faced this same type of persecution and is one of the reasons the Pilgrims came to the “New World”.
Hey Musicman – It’s all good to have differences of opinion
Diversity is a GOOD THING (could you ever imagine cj or shank saying something like that?) The interesting thing is that the puritans that came to the new world who faced persecurtion from the monarchy (and the churchof england, that was ruled by the monarchy) did the exact same thing one they where in charge?
Musicman,
I suppose I have been intrigued by the historical accounts that detailed personal interactions with the Puritans (I don’t have a beef with the Reformers, not sure how they got lumped in with the Puritans, but rather agree with much of what Taking Note said about being grateful for these men and women for our present heritage of faith, not a religious system of works)
but when we read history, we are indebted to the personal accounts, ultimately, of those eyewitnesses to the outworkings of the doctrines the Puritans taught. I mean that when I read Valley of Vision today, or John Owen, or any other writings of these men and women who we now refer to as Puritans, there is a sharp disconnect that unfortunately, we are unable to overcome as a result of our present inability to interact with them personally. Our interactions are limited to the words and teachings of dead men.
It has only been my modern-day interactions with people who have adopted their teachings that I have realized that what I now see firsthand (as the practice of the doctrines they emphasized) does indeed coincide with many of the historical accounts of interaction that were based on eyewitnesses or their time. Fruit eventually shows up – you can’t see fruit in the teachings themselves, but we can see it when we examine the application of teachings and beliefs. (by the way, still wishing for that discussion with you canary that you alluded to earlier back about examining fruit, was looking forward to your thoughts on it when it came up! I know Stein isn’t posting anymore, but that was a worthwhile topic to explore together here I thought!)
Simply put, I once read ABOUT the Puritans without knowing their teachings and passed judgment about what their focus was, taking the word of others alone who witnessed it. Then I became familiar with their teachings, embraced them because they “seemed” good (a.k.a having the appearance of godliness but denying the power thereby) But after some time practicing their teachings myself, and then seeing them played out to their logical conclusions in terms of application, what I saw in myself and others was indeed what Paul saw when he wrote to Titus: (1:15)
“To the pure, all things are pure, but to those who are corrupted and do not believe, nothing is pure. In fact, both their minds and consciences are corrupted. They claim to know God, but by their actions they deny him. They are detestable, disobedient and unfit for doing anything good.”
Paul is of course in this context speaking about a rebellious people of the circumcision group. What is interesting is that he brings up the conscience, faith, and actions here. We know if our conscience is clear, is is only by faith and not by works. And whatever does not come from faith is sin, this we also know. So purity comes ultimately, not by actions, but by having faith and a subsequent clear conscience. This is NOT what the Puritans taught. Their focus was on actions, deeds, works..the conscience was unable to be clear because of the constant focus on indwelling sin – which is contrary to the gospel which says that Christ died so that our consciences would be clear before God and bring us into right standing with Him, and we would no longer be under the law..so I see it as lack of faith that was ultimately the problem of the Puritans. They were legalists.
that is just my opinion and perspective after studying history, their teachings, applying them, watching for fruit, and studying the Word of God, so to others perhaps this is worth a cup of coffee – and I’m not talkin’ Starbucks either! But to me, this truth was a revelation of what it truly means to be justified (clean conscience before God) by faith.
Juli-
I actually agree with most of your observations abut the Puritans. I mentioned the Reformers because someone mentioned Calvin’s burning of Cervetus who’s writings were heretical and he then dared to attend a church in Geneva after being warned to never visit the city.
Freedom-
I agree-I think it’s ironic that the New World Puritans did the exact same thing to dissenters that the Church of England and the Monarchy did to them. But that’s my point-every church movement exists in a culture with many cultural assumptions. How many modern day Christians mix nationalism with the Kingdom of God? That’s all-hope I didn’t muddy the waters…
musicman – nah, no muddied waters
– power coruptes and absolute power coruptes absolutely. In the new word, they where now the big dogs and used that power as they saw fit.
Any issues I have with the reformers has more to do with their doctrine. The purtians always get lumped into the reformers because they tend to be, well, reformed.
A good question about calvin would be why isn’t the fact he had someone bruned at the stake talked about in discussions about him? That would be an important aspect of his life. It’s like trying to study King David without talking about the whole bathsheba incident
Freedom, there is a lot of controversy surrounding that particular piece of history – and you aren’t likely to hear it mentioned in Calvinist circles for obvious reasons. I heard about it when I was reading a book on conditional security (ugh) long before I became a Calvinist, and of course to attack Calvinism many feel they must attack Calvin himself to prove their point. I don’t see the need, but whatever. I’m not a fan of Calvin either way.
But I do think the church should not be afraid to let people think for themsleves and encourage free-thinking..that means not having approved reading lists, not being afraid of this blog and others like it, etc. Of course that also means not being power-hungry, paranoid, control freaks or into shepherding. Hence, the reason SGM never speaks of the incident, or many, many other things. Good grief, if they don’t want to discuss Noel’s story publicly and feel they need to do damage control…well…
Juli - thanks for the info. I had never had actually heard that part of Calvin’s history. I totally agree that free-think SHOULD be encouraged. You are correct, if the whole “shepherding”, control freak, paranoid, power-hungy where to ever even allow free-think, they would lose control. That happens when people find our the truth for themselves. Instead, it’s all passive-agressive mind games from the pulpit (or whatever they call it at SGM these days) – “blogs are all run my twenty-somethings in their mommy’s basement blogging in their underwear and are all pimple faced”
I’m sure someone would have blogged about Calvin in his day if they had the chance..the internet makes it impossible to stifle free-speech and free-thinking.
It’s great.
I like Jesus.
And pumpkin pie.
I like Jesus and pie.
That there’s the depths of my theology. Jesus loves me, this I know for the bible tells me so. Little ones to Him belong. They are weak but He is strong.
How I love simplicity.
(And pie.)
Stunned,
How I love simplicity.
You and me both! Jesus was a simple man on earth, even though He is the Son of God! I was born in a hospital, but he was birthed in a stable. That means I didn’t start out simple enough!
Yep, simple. I’m with you, Stunned. I love Jesus, and I like pizza and chocolate (not together, of course). I love people and try to leave the fragrance of Christ wherever I go. Aw, blessed simplicity…
Is there any example Storms can give of these “lifestyle legalists”? Could it be that he’s laying the groundwork, kind of like most Emergent church folks, for homosexuals in the evangelical church? I think it’s a distinct possibility. For the life of me, I don’t see the appeal of this man’s writings – they’re unoriginal and mediocre, much like John Piper’s. The Bible is pretty clear that fear of God is a good thing. Trying to tell people that it’s all about delight and joy and desire fulfillment is dishonest and rather immature.