So here’s the plan. Another “apostle” has given his troops their marching orders.
Address dissension and “slander” from the pulpit.
Discourage the sheep from reading the blogs.
Use the Keller/Powlison Article.
I’ll help. I’ve posted the article below. You’re welcome.
By the way, when you receive the article below, remind the person handing it to you that the blogs are run by human beings. Christian human beings. You might want to ask them if they have tried to contact me. I’ve posted my phone number on here and survivors many times. My email address is on the “about us” page, and when I respond to an email, my phone number is in my sig file. Based on what SGM teaches about gossip and slander, why is it ok for them to talk about me without talking to me?
Ask your pastor.
Should You Pass on Bad Reports?
by Tim Keller & David Powlison
One obvious genius of the internet is that it’s “viral.” Information explodes to the whole world. The old neighborhood grapevine and the postal service seem like ox-carts in a speed-of-light universe. (Do twenty-somethings even know what those antiquities once were? In the old days, people had to talk to each other or stick a stamp on an envelope.) Instantaneous transmission produces some wonderfully good things. Truth, like joy, is infectious. A great idea feeds into a million inboxes. But it also produces some disastrous evils. Lies, rumors, and disinformation travel just as far and just as fast.
So what should you do when you hear “bad reports” about a person or church or ministry? We want to offer a few thoughts on how to remain constructive. To paraphrase Ephesians 4:29, “Let no unwholesome words come out of your computer, but only what is constructive, in order to meet the need of the moment, that what you communicate will give grace to everyone who ever reads it.” That Greek word translated “unwholesome” is sapros. It means something that is inedible, either devoid of nutritional value or rotten and even poisonous. It applies to thorny briars or to fish or fruit that’s gone bad. At best, it’s of no benefit to anyone. At worst, it’s sickening and destructive. Consider three things in how to stay constructive.
What Does James Say about Passing Along Bad Reports?
Humble yourselves before the Lord.
Brothers, don’t slander or attack one another.
(James 4:10-11)
The verb “slander” simply means to “speak against” (Gk. kata-lalein). It is not necessarily a false report, just an “against-report.” The intent is to belittle another. To pour out contempt. To mock. To hurt. To harm. To destroy. To rejoice in purported evil. This can’t mean simple disagreement with ideas—that would mean that we could never have a debate over a point. This isn’t respectful disagreement with ideas. James warns against attacking a person’s motives and character, so that the listeners’ respect and love for the person is undermined. “As the north wind brings rain, so slander brings angry looks” (Prov. 25:23). Everybody gets upset at somebody else: slanderer, slanderee, slander-hearer.
The link of slander to pride in James 4:10 shows that slander is not the humble evaluation of error or fault, which we must constantly be doing. Rather, in slander the speaker speaks as if he never would do the same thing himself. It acts self-righteous and superior toward one’s obviously idiotic inferiors. Non-slanderous evaluation is fair-minded, constructive, gentle, guarded, and always demonstrates that speakers sense how much they share the same frailty, humanity, and sinful nature with the one being criticized. It shows a profound awareness of your own sin. It is never “against-speaking.”
James 5:9 adds a nuance: “Don’t grumble against one another.” Literally, it means don’t moan and groan and roll your eyes. This refers to a kind of against-speaking that is not as specific as a focused slander or attack. It hints at others flaws, not only with words, but by body language and tone. In print, such attitudes are communicated by innuendo, guilt by association, sneering, pejorative vocabulary. In person, it means shaking your head, rolling your eyes, and re-enforcing the erosion of love and respect for someone else. For example, “You know how they do things around here. Yadda, yadda. What do you expect?” Such a “groan” accomplishes the same thing as outright slander. It brings “angry looks” to all concerned. Passing on negative stuff always undermines love and respect. It’s never nourishing, never constructive, never timely, never grace-giving.
What Does the Book of Proverbs Say about Receiving Bad Reports?
He who covers over an offense promotes love,
but whoever repeats the matter separates close friends.
(Proverbs 17:9)
The first thing to do when hearing or seeing something negative is to seek to “cover” the offense rather than speak about it to others. That is, rather than let a bad report “pass in” to your heart as truth, and then get “passed along” to others, you should seek to keep the matter from destroying your love and regard for a person. How?
Start by remembering your own sinfulness. “All a man’s ways seem innocent to him, but motives are weighed by the Lord” (Prov. 16:2). To know this automatically keeps you from being too sure of your position and of speaking too strongly against people that you hear about or people on the other side of a conflict. You intuitively realize that you may not be seeing things right. Your motives are never as pure as you think they are. To know this acts to keep you from being too sure of the facts, too sure of your position, and of speaking too quickly and too negatively about other people. Knowing your own sinfulness helps you not make snap judgments that take what you hear too seriously.
When you remember your sinfulness, remember God’s mercies. “Love covers all offenses” (Prov. 10:12). The God who is love has covered all your offenses. He knows everything about you (and the whole story about that other person). He has chosen to forgive you, and life-saving mercy cost Jesus his life. He could write you up with a 100% True Bad Report, but he has chosen to bury your sins in the depths of the ocean. That makes the life and death difference. If your sins are not buried in the ocean of his mercy, then you will be justly exposed and will justly perish. But when you’ve known mercy, then even when you hear report of grievous evil, an instinct toward mercy should arise within you. To savor the tasty morsels of gossip and bad reports is very different from grieving, caring, and wishing nothing less than the mercies of Christ upon all involved. And most bad reports are much more trivial. They are the stuff of busybodies and gossips going “tut-tut-tut.”
Then remember that there is always another side. “The first to present his case seems right, till another comes forward and questions him” (Prov. 18:17). You never have all the facts. And you never have all the facts you need all at once. You are never in a position to see the whole picture, and therefore when you hear the first report, you should assume you have far too little information to draw an immediate conclusion. What you’ve heard from someone else is only “hear-say” evidence. It has no standing or validity unless it is confirmed in other ways.
So when you hear a negative report about another, you must keep it from passing into your heart as though it were true. If you pass judgment based on hear-say, you are a fool. That doesn’t mean you shouldn’t check out the facts. Go to the person. Hear other witnesses. If you’re far away from the scene, wait for more of the story to come out. Suspend judgment. Don’t get panicked or stampeded by mob-psychology and rumors. Be content not to know many things. You don’t need to have an opinion about everything and everyone.
Third, what should you do if you are close enough to the situation to be involved AND you think the injustice or matter is too great or grievous for you to ignore? For starters, notice that you only really need to know something if it touches your sphere of life and relationships. In that case, you should do what will help you to express God’s call upon you to speak Ephesians 4:29 words of wise love.
In Derek Kidner’s commentary on Prov. 25:7–10, he writes that when you think someone has done wrong you should remember, “One seldom knows the full facts (v.8) and one’s motives in spreading a story are seldom as pure as one pretends (v.10). To run to the law or to the neighbors is usually to run away from the duty of personal relationship.” See Christ’s clinching comment in Matthew 18:15: “If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother.” In short, if you feel the problem is too great and you can’t keep it from destroying your regard for the person, you must go personally before you go to anyone else.
When Should You Go?
Galatians 6:1 says we are to go when a person is caught in a trespass. That means there should be some kind of “pattern” or the unmistakeable exposure of a wrong. Don’t go the first time you hear a bad report about someone doing wrong. As we said above, there’s another side to most stories, and our motives are never totally pure when we get indignant. Go if the person seems caught—that is, trapped or stuck in a habit pattern of wrong behavior or falsehood.
How Should You Go?
Galatians 6:1 says we are to restore gently and in humility, bearing all the fruit of the Spirit. Beware of your own tendencies to be tempted—perhaps to the same sin, perhaps to reactive sins of self-righteousness or judgmentalism, perhaps to avoidance sins of cover-up and pretending. Galatians 6:2 goes on to say that we actually fulfill the law of Christ by bearing each other’s burdens. We become nothing less than lesser redeemers in the pattern of our Great Redeemer. Jesus in Matthew 18:15ff says we should also go persistently, and not give up in the process. Patience is one fruit of the Spirit because problems don’t always clear up quickly. There is a progression in efforts to get to the bottom of a bad report, to confirm the facts, and to work at bringing restoration.
Who Should Go?
Galatians 6 says you—plural—who are spiritual should go to the straying one. That both defines how you should go and it calls for multiple people to get involved. Similarly Matthew 18:15ff says to bring in other people if matters don’t resolve one to one. The right kind of checking out a bad report is always done in person and often will be done by involving multiple wise persons.
Why Should You Go?
In both Galatians 6 and Matthew 18 the goal is to restore the person and to re-establish sin-broken relationships. You are working to restore people both to God and to others.
Conclusion
In summary, from the Old Testament to the New Testament, the principle is this. If you hear bad reports about other Christians you must either cover it with love or go to them personally before speaking of it to any others.
* The first thing to do is to simply suspend judgment. Don’t pass on bad reports.
* The second thing to do is “cover” it in love, reminding yourself that you don’t know all about the heart of the person who may have done evil—and you know your own frailty. Don’t allow bad reports to pass into your own heart.
* The final thing to do is go and speak to them personally.
What you should never do is rush to judgment, or withdraw from loving another, or pass on the negative report to others. This is challenge enough when you’re dealing with the local grapevine or slow-moving postal service. In a world of instant world-wide communication of information it’s an even bigger challenge, because you can do bigger damage more quickly. Whether the bad report offers true information, or partial information, or disinformation, or false information—it is even more important that you exercise great discretion, and that you take pains to maximize boots-on-the-ground interpersonal relationships.
Some interesting comments followed, which can viewed by following the link here. I found these to be helpful.
“So is this a bad report on the bringers of a bad report?
I respect the vision here — a Biblical vision of turning a brother away from his sin. I reject the idea that every “bad report” is inherently sinful. The book of Galatians is, itself, a public “bad report” from Paul against those in Galatia who were defacing the Gospel — and Paul didn’t go to these guys first and say, “listen, I didn’t want to say anything in front of the whole church, and I certainly am not suggesting that you are bad guys, but is your paradigm for the inclusivity of Christ’s work excessively biased to Old-Covenant mores and boundary markers?” I think Paul’s language is markedly more aggressive and pointed than that.
I’m fairly on-record against the excesses of watch-blogging, and if that’s what this brief essay is trying to get at, so be it. But it is one thing to repudiate hyperbolic accusations for matters of secondary (or tertiary) importance, and another entirely to say that all disagreements are inherently private disagreements which need to be settled over a cup of coffee, face to face, without any regard to the public scope of the point in contention.
The proof of this lies simply in answering the question, “How does one refute or repudiate the excesses of watch-bloggers?” The way that engagement would have to unfold — as a mixture of public exposition and private mediation — seems to me to look a lot more like the multiform method of engaging error in the NT than the (if I can be forgiven for saying so) simplistic view being advanced here.”
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“Wow, someone really should have told Paul about this.”
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“A question for the question: Would people or could people, whether they’re Christian or not, honestly and truthfully say that there are heroes in the Bible who have passed on “bad reports”?”
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“ChrisB has it. The apostle Paul would have failed this test.
Chris links to 2 Tim 4, but we could also mention Philippians 4:2, where Euodia and Syntyche’s disagreement is recorded for posterity and for our edification; we might also quiz Luke on why he had to name Ananias and Sapphira in Acts 5, for their names are surely not necessary to convey the warning that the passage intends.
Returning to Paul, we could mention his public shaming of the apostle Peter in Galatians 2. If it had happened in the heat of the moment, we might excuse the event, but Paul is reporting on it some time later and using it as a part of the justification of his apostolic ministry.
And, I wonder if you could take any Cretan seriously after reading Titus 2:12.
Also, what do you make of the gospel writers exposing the betrayal of Judas, the spinelessness of Peter, and the inconsistency, hypocrisy and cowardice of the entire group of disciples right through Jesus’ ministry, and even after his resurrection (see Mt 28: 17b)?
I suppose you could argue that this was not slandering Christians, since the Holy Spirit hadn’t yet come, but I can see a few holes in that line of thinking.
So the advice that Tim and David give is useful but flawed, because it relies on selective attention to New Testament teaching.”
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Back in July I posted this, which I’ve edited (I don’t want to talk about my former sgc again), and included below.
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How does one in SGM who is not a senior pastor practice Matt 18 or 1 Tim 5:20?
How do I “tell it to the church” or “rebuke an elder who persists in sin in the presence of all”?
Who is the “church” in Matt 18, and who is “all” in 1 Tim 5?
Was Jesus referring to the local ekklesia (a church that met in a home), or a regional ekklesia (such as Corinth), or the universal ekklesia (His Bride and Body)?
When Paul was instructing Timothy, exactly who and how many people were included in the “all”?
I’m not sure anyone knows.
The early church was clearly interactive-see 1 Cor 14. If this is in dispute, I’ll elaborate in another post.
In your local SGM franchise, the local CEO is firmly in charge of everything that takes place from 10 to 12. If someone gives a testimony, it is because they have been invited to do so, and have first submitted that testimony in writing. If someone has a prophetic word for the congregation, they must approach the man guarding the prophecy mic. This is clearly the antithesis of Paul’s direction in 1 Cor 14:29.
I thought that the closest thing to an interactive assembly would be this blog. SGM leaders can publicly defend themselves.
Is there a Biblical precedent for going public in such a manner? I haven’t done a recent study, but I was familiar with 3 examples.
Luke reports the dispute between Paul and Barnabas over John Mark in Acts 15:36-41. I would think that most readers would side with Paul’s assessment of John Mark, and not think too highly of him. It may be implied that the church agreed, as it is reported that Barnabas and John Mark left, while Paul and Silas were commended by the brothers to the grace of God before departing. I haven’t researched this, so that may be a stretch. Check your commentaries, gents. I will recant.
In 2 Tim 4:10, Paul makes a very harsh statement against Demas, saying that he deserted him because he is in love with the world. Ouch. Not only describing actions but assigning motive.
John speaks to Gaius in 3 John about a leader in the church named Diotrephes who desired preeminence, did not acknowledge John’s authority, would not welcome the brothers (possibly Jewish Christians or missionaries), and excommunicated those who did welcome the brothers referenced above.
Now I’m of the opinion that the writers of Scripture knew that they were writing Scripture. If I’m wrong, I think that we can all agree that God knew that they were writing Scripture, as their words are defined as “God breathed”.
I believe that Paul was later reconciled with Barnabas, John Mark, and Demas, and I haven’t researched Diotrephes and what became of him, but it’s clear God allows harsh criticism of these 4 Christian men to remain in the most widely read book in the history of the world. These men have been dead for 2000 years, and we read about them today.
So, I take a literal view of Matt 18 and 1 Tim 5, seeing God’s view of “going public” with the sins of the 4 men listed above.
Can you let us know who this “Apostle” is?
CD-you know I have no problem naming names, except when I would be betraying a confidence.
So many points that could be emphasized:
- Since they (SGM) don’t want their folk listening to BAD reports, are they at least permitted to listen to TRUE reports?
- And, really, I don’t know the two men who wrote the article, but come on, certainly they must know that there were no “Christians” in the Old Testament. Right? Or not?
And since there were no Christians in the Old Testament, this statement is an outright manipulative lie. Imagine lying about what the Bible teaches! It will be interesting to see if the ”sheep” are so blind that they buy these manipulative lies.
Quoting the article: “In summary, from the Old Testament to the New Testament, the principle is this. If you hear bad reports about other Christians you must either cover it with love or go to them personally before speaking of it to any others.”
I wonder how quickly this is making its way through sgm – I haven’t seen as many sgm defenders popping up here and over at survivors this week.
Once again, anything that is perceived as negative against sgm is called “sin”. Once again, the Bible is twisted and used for SGM purposes. I know I am beating a dead horse on that as it has been proven over and over.
I started reading the article but got totally bored. Arrrrrrghhh!!!!!!!!
I have a question: Since the pastors will be discouraging members from reading the blogs, I was wondering, what exactly is the difference between reading on this blog or the survivor blog and reading or watching the news in terms of gossip/slander? I’m thinking of O’Reilly here. Is it O.K. to watch O’Reilly? Or what about The Wall Street Journal? Is it O.K. to read The Wall Street Journal? Especially the Opinion section. ?? Am I being ridiculous in the opinion of SGM leadership?
Well, it all sounds so sickly sweet. Too bad the pastors we went to didn’t listen when we went privately. They are good at giving one-sided advice to control their assemblies, but not good at practicing it. How many of us here went privately to our pastors? How many of us were shown the door, simply for disagreeing with them? How many of us saw anger in leaders we once respected as holy men?
Sorry, Saints. This is just more of the same – trying to control a mess that is getting out of hand. Bring out the ole’ pride accusation. That is the ultimate conclusion to come to when a member doesn’t follow the church polity. Or when we on this blog speak out about what we experienced. We are not trying to destroy anyone. We are trying to show believers that there is freedom in Christ. We are correcting men in public who chose not to listen in private. Simple as that.
Canary… Amen, Sister!
Bree… SGM’s definitions of gossip and slander are a little slippery to pin down… it depends on the situation, I guess… :-/
Remnant… “things that make you go Hmmmmm….”
I was bored too, Deleted.
I’m teaching The Crucible right now in my AP English class–if you get a chance, watch the DVD with Daniel Day-Lewis and Winona Ryder–it is scary how relevant it is to the Puritan-worshipping SGM franchise. Relevant, not a perfect 1:1 analogy, but very telling.
I for one am praising God – you know why? Because the drive bys aren’t looking for healing, they are looking to pick a fight – and in the process end up hindering healing and actually being the ones divisive. So already I see what they intend for damage control, the Lord is using for healing..no way around it SGM, throw a hissy all you want from the pulpit – you should say what Gamaliel (in the Bible not the former poster here) said and I am paraphrasing: if this work be from man, then it won’t last – but if it is from the Lord, we can’t stop it!
Those who are hurting will not stop coming on the blogs, because they want to be free, and their eyes have been opened by the Spirit of God, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. And now that those who are SGM loyal have been threatened from the seat of Moses (a.k.a. the pulpit) not to read or post anymore, it will open up all sorts of ministry opportunities to those who are thinking of leaving or who have left.
Thanks SGM! Your pride and control is going to be used to the glory of God!
The thing that frustrates me about this article is the only way that I have learned any of the “bad reports” about other ministries and pastors is by reading Justin Taylor’s Between Two Worlds blog. Why is it okay that he smears everyones bad press for all to see but it’s not okay for others to hear about the pain and suffering of people involved in this ministry? I don’t get it.
It isn’t OK for the sheep in SGM to read this blog, but it’s very OK for them to read what CJ wants them to read. Here is a listing of recommended blogs from SGC Chesapeakes website. Notice the phrase “trusted friends”:
http://www.sgconline.org/recommendedblogs/
Here are a few blogs we’d like to recommend from some of our trusted friends:
C.J. Mahaney
C.J.’s blog offers book recommendations, interviews, video highlights, news about churches, music and resources, and thoughts on pastoral leadership, theological questions, and (of course) sports. C.J. oversees the Leadership Team of Sovereign Grace Ministries.
C.J. on his hopes for this blog: If I can somehow draw your attention each week to the hill called Calvary and remind you of the Savior’s substitutionary sacrifice on the cross for our sins, if I can draw your attention away from yourself and direct your affections to him, then this blog will have served your soul and made some small difference for the glory of God. I pray it does.
Girl Talk
Girl Talk, the blog, presents conversations on biblical womanhood and “other fun stuff” from the ladies of the C. J. Mahaney family.
Worship Matters
TThis blog by Bob Kauflin, Covenant Life pastor and Director of Worship Development for Sovereign Grace Ministries is designed for those who lead corporate praise (pastors, musicians, small group leaders) or anyone who wants to use music and words to magnify God’s glory in Christ. Bob’s first book, Worship Matters: Leading Others to Encounter the Greatness of God, becomes available March 31, 2008.
Albert Mohler
Keep up on the latest musings of Dr. R. Albert Mohler, Jr., ninth president of The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, and a man recognized by such influential publications as “Time” and “Christianity Today” as a leader among American evangelicals.
Juli, you are right that this sight has helped people to be set free. I know because I’m one of them. This might not be the right place to be asking for help, but you have talked about legalism on here before and referenced Galatians. My husband and I are currently putting our thoughts on paper to take to our pastor. I’ve asked for help over at the survivor blog as well. If you could, or anyone else here could give me some suggestions, I’d be very grateful.
I have been reading Galatians in a version other than ESV and I was very blessed by it, seeing that sanctification is also by grace through faith, a work of the Spirit. (Having begun in the Spirit, will you be perfected in the flesh….)
But this morning I grabbed my ESV, and in certain vereses where my other version talks about being set right with God and uses the word “righteousness” itself, the ESV uses the word, “justification.” Galatians 2:21, specifically. The notes at the bottom, however, give about the same info as the other version(s), saying, “or righteousness.” So I’m wondering if it may be that SGM (since they use the ESV) see Galatians as talking about justificaiton only and not about sanctification. I’m discouraged at that thought, because if that’s the case, what else can my husband and I say to refute the legalistic teachings? Is this a common debate–whether Galatians is referring to justification only or to sanctification as well?
If what we say can be dismissed by them simply saying Galatians is talking about justification, then a lot of our argument regarding the gospel will be useless. If there’s other Scripture we could use…thank-you in advance.
Bree,
My thoughts: The McDonald’s franchise has a business model. NO ONE will successfully challenge that model. They will run all those franchise according to the established business model. And why wouldn’t they? It has worked well for them.
SGM has a business model as well, and until CJ/the leadership team/apostles see a need to change it, IT WILL NOT change. A “local church” in SGM will not stray far from the franchise paradigm and escape the wrath of the CEO of the franchise.
I admire your courage, your heart for truth, and you willingness to do the right thing, but winning an “argument” with a franchise owner is a little to much to hope for—BUT we are all for you. Let us know how that all goes.
Bree, why not print out some of the posts on here about polity and a couple of the stories for the pastor to read? Noel’s story is most telling. The manner in which people are forced to constantly seek out their own motives and sin while the perpetrator of a crime against them is not duly admonished but rather supported is a real concern to me. It reflects the doctrinal error we’re talking about here at Refuge.
The type of polity they are saying is biblical could, arguably, be considered unbiblical because it perpetuates this same type of abuse. Jesus told Peter to feed His sheep. He had denied Jesus and was filled with remorse and unworthiness, but Jesus restored him and still gave him a job to do. I believe the same could happen with CJ, Steve S., et al (I am in no way saying they’ve denied Jesus — that was just an example of the type of restoration we long to see within this denomination). If your pastor takes his job as a shepherd seriously, he should take a long hard look at the polity that brought his denomination to the place where it now sits. Perhaps the polity can’t be changed or not changed immediately, but I see it as the single most detrimental item on the “change” agenda. It’s fine for Jesus to be the sole head of the church because He is without sin. But for CJ, apostles, pastors, care group leaders, then lil ole me — I just don’t believe that type of authoritarian leadership works. At least not without a common liturgy like the Episcopalians have. But no, they’re a terrible example because of that bishop in New Hampshire. Doctrine and liturgy can always be misinterpreted by frail man!
When Jesus sent his disciples out two by two (this was after the 12, wasn’t it? Don’t remember how many there were — 70?), that was a great thing. When they messed up, they went to Jesus and he rebuked, exhorted, or taught them. After he left, they gathered in one accord and did what they and the Holy Spirit felt was right. If you tell your pastor that the polity he is serving under does not follow that model of unified, corporate seeking out of God’s will that we saw when they were in one accord (have him search out polity in the book of Acts because that’s the closest we come to those who were with Jesus), maybe he will better understand where, how, and why all the sin-sniffing got started. Don’t forget, also, that these men believe they are doing the right thing. We will be praying that God prepares your pastor’s heart to receive what you have to say and that He will heal His church!
I’m praying for you, Bree!
FF, Thanks for praying for me. I totally get that the polity is behind the mess. But when we go to our pastor, we want to touch on what we see locally as well–and that’s the legalism. We definitely will be talking about the polity and my husband will be putting those thoughts together (on paper). I can’t really bring anything from here–although there’s tons that would be beneficial–because they don’t take these blogs seriously, or they dismiss them because it’s all gossip and slander anyway. I have printed off some links we’ve been directed to from here–even one from CJ’s blog (standing in the stead of God), but I can’t take anything directly from the blogs. It needs to come from my husband and I personally.
Thank you for pointing out Acts as a good reference for the Biblical model of government. I will mention that to my husband.
We were going to talk about Noel’s story initially, but now we want to focus on our concerns locally and those SGM-wide issues which affect us locally. We want to be very specific and do the best we can to help our pastor see. We’ll start broad–SGM as a whole, polity, CJ and all that–and then bring it more specific down to legalism and the local women’s teaching. We just really do care about our pastors and our local family of believers. We want to help. My husband has more hope than I do of affecting any change. Of course, it’s only the Holy Spirit who can affect any change in our pastor’s heart, but if He uses something of what we share, then I’m glad to do so. But it is discouraging thinking it may be pointless.
GD, thank-you for being honest. We have to do what we’re going to do because we care. If we didn’t, we’d just leave. I will let you all know how it goes. We’re still putting our thoughts together, so it won’t be right away.
Thanks.
Bree, when are you meeting with them or sending a letter? I will pray, and will most certainly get back with you – but was wondering your “deadline”?
By the way, I agree it is not wise to focus on Noel’s story, because it is HER story, and I am guessing you are leaving because of your own experiences, and Noel’s story was just more confirmation?
And even though I agree that the polity IS really the issue, the Lord prompting you to go may not be about convicing them of any problems, it may simply be about obedience to the voice of the Lord. Clarification by Him about why you are going in the first place is helpful, it keeps the enemy from saying “well, you failed at that!” and bring discouragement. It seems he may already be doing that from what you said about not having hope. But if the “goal” of God in this has nothing to do with you or your husband changing the leaders minds, then simply going and sharing would not be a failure then, would it? Do you see what I am saying?
As some guidlines, I would stick with Scripture as you are seeking, and not get into a discussion on polity unless you are able to defend it Biblically, or this was an area you actually have had concerns in for some time and want to share them. I was personally convicted of legalism and idolatry and never even thought of the polity. I simply spoke to my pastors (via email) after I left last year about the EFFECTS of the SGM system on my life, how the Lord revealed the sin, and what the Bible says about it. All of this was in the contxt of ” I’m leaving the church, just wanted to let you know why.” I never once mentioned SGM by the way, because I didn’t know at that time the effects I was experiencing in my own life (legalism, idolatry) were the products of an authoritarian and shepherding model in place over me.
My agenda was not to convince them, I was not “open” for their counsel at that point to be honest, because I really had the fear of God at that point – I was scared to go back, it would be, for me, the equivalent of walking into the golden calf worship orgy back in Moses’ day after God told me how upset He was about it. No way was I going back! But again, this motive in sending the emails was clear before I did it. I in no way was being led to be a voice against SGM at that time. Perhaps, because I am single, and I was very much in bondage, the Lord was protecting me and just got me out as quick as possible. However, since then, He has given me more of a voice and boldness in the freedom I now have in the truth.
So that being said, maybe it would be helpful for you to read what my pastor’s reponse was to me simply confessing sin, and saying I was leaving. I posted all our email exchanges on my blog. (which he got ticked about!) If you clikc on how and why I left my church, you will find the links. I don’t share it to discourage you, rather to just say again – be obedient to what the Lord is telling you to do and why. If you try to anticipate their response, well, esp in light of all on the blogs, you can easily be discouraged before you go. Go in the strength of the Lord and His truth!
My pastors (I sent two emails to the top two pastors) mindsets were, even then, that what I was experiencing was NOT legalism and idolatry. This confused me at the time, for the first time, a SIN I confessed was met with “But you’re NOT wicked in that area!” So I was confused, obviously. You see, if they agree with us that SGM practices and teachings promote legalism, then they are saying they are in part responsible. ANd fill in the blank whatever else you personally have experiences and have concerns with. Whatever it is, if they agree to it, then they have to repent, because they are partially responsible. And many won’t do that.
But I still say sharing your personal convictions, whatever they are, and how SGM affected you, how the Lord revealed this (thru Scripture) is the best approach. Who can argue with the Spirit of the Lord and His Word? No one. And they know it, and that is why they finally backed down, but to be honest, a year later, they are still doing damage control because of the wake I left in my leaving. You see, leaving a beloved church is powerful. Because it sends a very strong message: something is wrong. And even if they attack you personally to get the focus back on YOU and not them, so be it.
Have a clear conscience before God and before man, that is what is expected of us. Honor those in leadership with your words and actions, but that does not mean blindly follow them, nor does it mean to not follow the Lord in preference of them.
I’ll be praying! Oh, I will so be praying..by the way, didn’t know that about the ESV version in Galatians, I will do some research and get back to you! thanks for letting us all know how to use our swords better!
Thank-you Juli for those encouraging words. Just talked to my husband, I’m so discouraged about the legalism issue (the gospel issue, I say), at how much a part of the system it is. I know Jim doesn’t agree with me here (or I assume so, correct me if I’m wrong), but The Discipline of Grace is like their systematic approach to Christian living and it is definitely legalism. Many Christians live by a similar approach–I’m having feelings of, “Who am I to disagree?” I feel like God has, for whatever reason, opened my eyes to the truth of the freedom that is mine in Christ. Salvation is by faith, but so is Sanctification. When Abraham’s faith was counted to him as righteousness, I believe it actually resulted in fruit in his life–fruit of the Holy Spirit. No more striving.
Anyway, my husband said that he was not primarily going to our pastor because he cares (although he does) and this was news to me. But he’s going because he wants to give our pastor a chance to answer us on these things and also wants to inform him of why we’re leaving. And one point my husband made was that putting all of this in writing clarifies it for ourselves.
I want to be clear, Juli, we haven’t faced any of the heartache that so many here have. I really believe our church is different in some ways, maybe because we have one pastor who did not attend the PC. I agree with all of the concerns SGM wide as well as agreeing that what happened to Noel’s family was wicked. But my personal concerns are primarly with the gospel, the legalism, the control connected to the legalism. (But what I feel personally about the control has not been my husband’s experience, so we won’t be addressing that. Maybe it only affects certain people–that is, in our church. I don’t know.)
I won’t carry on about the legalism and the mistreatment of the gospel. I actually think I’d better take a break from the blogs for a bit. I will continue to seek God, Juli. Your words are wise. I’ll visit your site soon.
Thank-you.
Oh, and we don’t have a deadline. The steps are to finish putting our thoughts in writing, give that to our pastor so he can read over, set up a meeting time and meet. Writing these things down for our pastor has been good, but it feels like a chore. I’m tired of it. I may take a couple of days break from that as well. I’ll let you know when we hand the papers over, and then I’ll be found out, won’t I? Oh, well. Sooner or later anyway.
Jim, based on what you shared here, do you think the pastors will be using church discipline for those who post on the blogs?
Interesting.
My question is how much of this response is for current discussion vs. future discussion?
SGM in my experience tries to be pre-emptive in their measures. If this is even part of the case in their latest move, then we all should be praying even more for our SGM brothers and sisters.
That being said, I pulled this list of the SGM survivor’s site and reduced it to what applies to this recent move;
No tolerance for questions or critical inquiry.
Unreasonable fear about the outside world, such as impending catastrophe, evil conspiracies and persecutions.
Followers feel they can never be “good enough”.
The group/leader is always right.
The group/leader is the exclusive means of knowing “truth” or receiving validation, no other process of discovery is really acceptable or credible.
This list is from *Rick Ross’s, “Ten warning signs of a potentially unsafe group/leader.” *(Expert Consultant and Intervention Specialist)
Another thought from the Christian Research Institute;
1. WHAT ARE SOME OF THE COMMON MARKS OF THE C****?
One of the most devastating experiences someone could face is to have a loved one involved in a c***. What are some ways we can know that a certain group is in fact a c***.
The devil always hides behind a mask; and he seldom carries an ID card. If this statement is true, it is of utmost importance for us to discern a c*** when we see one.
The first mark of a c*** is its manipulation of Scripture. The Bible is twisted to fit the leader or group’s interpretation. Private interpretations are forbidden because the leader of the c*** is the only one, of course, who is able to understand God’s voice properly. Their teachings distort the historic, orthodox claims of Christianity.
Second, many times c***s manipulate people’s minds. There is little concern for individual thought and development. Education is usually discouraged while the convert is bombarded with the cult’s doctrine and literature. Members are called to leave or neglect their old family and life-style for a brand new one.
A third mark is the manipulation of time. Since salvation comes exclusively from the teachings of the group, in many cults members spend much of their time working for their organization. Family, school, leisure, sleep, and even food are most often neglected.
Finally, c***s typically manipulate reality. They tend to have an exclusive “us”/“them” mentality in which society and old associates are all out to get them. Anyone outside of the group is suspect.
If a religious group exhibits one or more of the marks mentioned above, that group may well be considered a c***. Jesus Christ said that in the last days many false prophets would arise and deceive many (Matt. 24:11,24). To avoid the deception of the cults, we should be rooted in the teachings of the historic Christian faith, and receive Jesus Christ, God the Son, second Person of the Trinity, as Lord of our lives.
The bold is my emphasis as these statements relate to what I see in this latest “teaching” that has come to bear. The word cult is a strong on and I left it marked out. Not looking to debate weather SGM is one, but I think this article makes some good points.
All this to say, thank you SGM, for giving the SGM world another chunk of fear and weight to be carried by your membership. Thanks also for demonstrating again that you are more concerned with appearances than truth.
Would it not be better to own up to what you are and do, rather than to continually find more puffs of smoke to cloud and cover your tracks?
What is next, we already went through “Discerning the Media”. We are frequently told that without your covering, we are fodder for the enemy.
I am waiting for the Sovereign Grace Gated Community to be announced at this point.
Brother Jim,
Thank you so much for this post. Here at the Abbey we enjoyed all the scriptures and insight presented by the Refuge parishioners on this subject of Bad Reports.
I think this will strengthen those, myself included, who have not felt comfortable engaging the encyclicals of the SGM Magisterium for concern of being guilty of spreading a bad report. This concern robs us of faith, after all the scriptures say ” whatever is not of faith is sin.” Praise God that, “faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.”
We are ready to rise to the challenge to speak the truth in love, and to combat deception. Col. 2:8.
Brother Cadfael
Canary said, “How many of us here went privately to our pastors? How many of us were shown the door, simply for disagreeing with them? How many of us saw anger in leaders we once respected as holy men?”
Raising my hand here.
been there…done that
Carolyn McCulley’s blog is conspicuously absent from the list of recommended blogs.
Seeker,
Whose list?
That Keller/Powlison article is excellent and correct when dealing with personal and private relational conflicts. Gossip IS a sin.
When CJ and his ilk make statements from the pulpit it is public material and subject to public scrutiny. His screaming rant about authority we sat through happened in public. His crap about Rogaine happened in public. The church polity is public. Dave Harvey’s material is public. CJ telling the men at a big mens retreat that they had to listen to him keep talking late and not go to bed because he “didn’t serve the idol of sleep” is semi public.
The apostle Paul publically rebuked men- Cephas, Hymenaeus and Philetus for bad teaching and behaviour.
There ARE some posts here that may veer into a failure to do Matthew 18 first. My conscience is clear that we said what we had to say to the leadership at our church, and told them straight out that we would not stay in PDI because of CJ when we left. You MUST talk to your pastors first, you owe it to them to speak up before you go. The very least you can do is admit that now even if it is too late.
Having said that, there are plenty of verses about healing up the broken hearted and encouraging the weary. Jesus spoke of leaving the 99 and going off after the one sheep alone. When we left PDI I honestly wondered if anybody else besides us saw what we saw. It was a lonely feeling. It is so encouraging to read a place like this in retrospect. I wish it had been around 10 ago. I am sure SGM is willing to talk about the Mormons and the Moonies and Jehovah’s Witnesses to people without going to their top leaders. Well, we too want to help folks get free of cults and we don’t need to go to every leader of every cult to do it. But IF you were a member of that cult with close relationships, you owe it to them to speak to them in love when you go, whether it be scientology or Christian Science. Don’t just come here and vent, be honest with them first.
The come here and vent
Bree,
I don’t disagree with you about The Discipline of Grace, I’m just uninformed. I think I read the book over 10 years ago, and my brain leaks.
I also agree that legalism is a huge issue in SGM.
5years- well said!
Brother C,
Happy to keep the brothers at the Abbey entertained-you certainly keep me entertained
And we can use all the help we can get. Rise up, brethren!
PFR,
All this to say, thank you SGM, for giving the SGM world another chunk of fear and weight to be carried by your membership. Thanks also for demonstrating again that you are more concerned with appearances than truth.
Would it not be better to own up to what you are and do, rather than to continually find more puffs of smoke to cloud and cover your tracks?
YES!
I know many of us have had bad experiences while bringing observations to our SGM pastors in the past.
Please don’t forget what to expect-
Expect to see a new humility from your pastors. If confronted, they will no longer turn the tables on you, but will actually listen. It is crucial that we understand this. They will listen, appear very humble, but will change nothing. They sit in the seat of Moses, and you don’t. Humility and leadership in SGM are antithetical. A well practiced humble demeanor does not equal humility. I hate to break it to you, but the guy trying to sell you a car doesn’t really want to be your best friend.
What should you do?
When you confront your newandimprovedmorehumblethanever pastor, ask him for a response. If there is verbal repentance, ask him what active repentance looks like. Ask him to define repentance. How is one saved-faith and repentance. What does repentance mean in the context of salvation? Does it have a different meaning in interpersonal relationships?
Watch for signs of active repentance.
One more prediction…
You won’t see it.
Wheeeeeeeeew, I am so happy to be beyond all of that. I remember countless “guest speakers” come in and hear them tell us how humble our “senior pastor” was, only to see the pinnacleof arrogance displayed from our “senior pastor” when he took apart a poor helpless, naive friend of mine who took an issue to him, actually thinking that this GUY was really humble–please!!!!!! My friend was decimated and it took him many months to return to reasonable sanity. This friend is not a “girlie” guy. He spent many years in the service of his country. He actually thought that he could reason with this “sr. pastor.”
Would Keller and Powlison have advised Mordecai not to pass on the bad report of the eunuch’s plot to kill King Ahasuerus? (Esther 2)
Excellent question Quizzer, thus your handle.
Mmmmmmmmmm, causes one to ponder! Yep, you have a valid point, so enough of the pondering for me at least.
5 years wrote: CJ telling the men at a big mens retreat that they had to listen to him keep talking late and not go to bed because he “didn’t serve the idol of sleep” is semi public.
Me: Are you serious? Thing shave gotten worse since I left. I did let bendinelli know exactly what I thought – the c word, cult was used. He didn’t like what I had to say – talk about a p.o.’d pastor – I can laugh about it now!
Quizzler – what about the “bad reports” in the real world, say the terrorist plots that have been stopped recently (group in england, etc). what about those that passed on the “bad reports” about hitler? What about all the “bad reports” we get from our spies overseas that protect us? I have a feeling cj won’t have any problem passing on “bad reports” about obama when it comes to federally funded abortions or anything that he would see as “culturally liberal”
Jim – thanks for the reminder on what to expect. We shouldn’t be suprised at all about the reaction, we can always hope for better, the suprise should be the restitution of those they hurt and the CHANGE that comes with repentance…. (uh oh, Freedom’s talking about the fruit)
Here’s a great quote from an article in cornerstone magazine:
To equate forgiveness with absolution from personal responsibility is to cheapen biblical forgiveness and to deny biblical justice
It’s from an article on why they published the truth about the mike warnke story – sgm would call it “passing on a bad report” – I would call it telling the truth.
http://www.cornerstonemag.com/....._trust.htm
http://www.cornerstonemag.com/....._index.htm
Saints,
I thought SGM would come out swinging. Now I have a better description – smoke screen. The passing of bad reports argument can be won by us in a couple of posts. However, leadership still controls alot of the sheep, and are using intimidation tactics to keep the mess from getting any bigger. It is a smoke screen. Instead of dealing with the people they’ve damaged along the way, all the bodies left in their wake, they want to hush it all up. Again. They won’t even come on here to try and change our minds. Why? I’d stop blogging if they could admit to their authoritarian ways and the harm it has done. Or I’d eat my hat. Or my cage…
There is a movie called “Serenity”. I won’t argue the finer points of how good or bad it is (though the bad guys were really creepy). There is a lesson at the end. You see, the bad guys became that way because the government fed people a drug (secretly) to keep the society calm and controlled. Unfortunately, it killed some, who became so ambivilant towards life that they stopped eating, and died. Others were turned into cannibals – the bad guys.
The hero in the movie is trying to get this truth out on a super huge space airwaves thing, to notify the whole known universe that they are being plagued by cannibal monsters that were once normal human beings - because the government tried to control society through the drug. Once the hero accomplishes this, the government can no longer fight to keep their secret quiet. The truth was out.
Sorry to bring out the sci fi, but it so closely resembled what we are doing here. No, we aren’t fighting cannibals, obviously. However, now that the truth is getting out to the “known universe”, the fight is really over. All SGM can do is tell people not to listen. That is their only weapon (and is a well-used one at that). In some ways, legalism is like that sci fi drug. It puts you to sleep, or it cannabolizes the faith of others. Why think for yourself when the holy men will think for you? Don’t let others have faith for themselves. They must follow the leader, or be eaten alive by church polity.
I dunno, to me there isn’t anything else leadership can do put put up the smoke screen, tell people it is a sin to read the blogs, and try to control the collateral damage. But our voice is still out there. Those who are still able to think for themselves just might find they’ve been living under another gospel for a long time. That would be legalism, of which Paul fought so vehemently against when he was on earth. It is a noble fight. To see our brothers and sisters, even a few, leave behind the chains of legalism and find their freedom in Christ is worth all the time we spend here.
Also, Bree, you are right. We are justified by faith, and we are sanctified by that same faith. We abide with the vine, and become like Jesus through that abiding. Galations is speaking to people who have all ready been justified by faith, but are trying to work out their faith in the flesh. Read 1 Cor. 5:6-7, Pauls prescription for legalism. The problem is, SGM will never admit they have even a little leaven in their lives or polity. They believe their control is justified by the positions they have given themselves. They, in their minds, are responsible for the souls of those they lead, to an extreme. Remember, they “stand in the very stead of God”. That’s heavy. What a burden. Too much for any man to take on.
So maybe CJ doesn’t worship the idol sleep, but he has his own share of idols – namely raspberry cheesecake, basketball, etc. who is HE to pass judgment on others who happened to be tired? Oh yeah, I forgot, he did write a book on humility, that must make him the expert..
Repent CJ. Turn back to your First Love.
Keller and Powlison say –
“The verb “slander” simply means to “speak against” (Gk. kata-lalein). It is not necessarily a false report, just an “against-report.” The intent is to belittle another. To pour out contempt. To mock. To hurt. To harm. To destroy. To rejoice in purported evil”.
Why does The Quizzler’s dictionary (written by the distinguished Mr. Webster) say –
slan-der 1. the utterance in the presence of another person the false statement or statements , damaging to a third person’s characteror or reputation: usually distinguished from libel, which is written.
……………. could The Quizzler’s dictionary be wrong?
Could Keller and Powlison have gotten their dictionary from a particular (approved) book table?
Could the three couples in Chesapeake, VA have been “slandered”?
So many questions, so little time……………
Freedom..yeah its true, but maybe 10 years ago. Hub went down to a big men’s pow-wow in Gaithersburg and he ended up walking out of the meeting in disgust, he was so tired after working all week and then having to drive to DC. They had a schedule printed out but the meeting ran late and CJ informed all the men that he was going to ignore the schedule, and he expected them to stay and listen to him, and not serve the idol of sleep; too many people make sleep an idol.
I can’t believe nobody talked about this on this blog before? I think that retreat was for anybody in ministry (small group leaders and ministry team leaders).
There were jokes from our pulpit once about pots of coffee and Dave Harvey drinking an entire 2 liter bottle of diet cola with caffeine some mornings. No wonder, I guess nobody on staff was allowed to serve the idol of sleep.
Sad. I was so proud of hub for walking out on CJ and going to bed. It is just so arrogant to ignore the way God made us and the need for sleep to function well and keep our immune system healthy.
Basic rule of all cults- deprive your members of sleep to help with the brainwashing.
5 years – that is insane – the “idol” of sleep? Sorry, our bodies need sleep. I would question how much coffee the “leaders” drink – do they get a headache when they skip a cup one day? It’s called caffine addicition.
It is true, deprive your members of the “idol of sleep” and it;s much easier to brainwash…..
it’s the old “bait and switch” tactic of manipulators and abusers.
they set a standard that is constantly changing so you are constantly striving, yet never attaining. You never “arrive”, hence the increasing dependency on the group and the leaders for help improving.
I just wanted to say a thank-you to everyone who has commented in reference to my comment back up there somewhere about legalism and going to our pastor, and thank-you to anyone who has prayed. God is helping me think through things, bringing a fresh understanding.
Happy Valentines Day one and all!
Bree
5years, were you talking to me when you said something about going to our pastors first and then coming here? Just wondering because this site has been such a blessing to me. I never would have had the courage to see the truth if it weren’t for the blogs because I felt that to question SGM and our pastors to the degree that I now have would be to question God. I think I was also hesitant to see the truth because of their ideas of slander. It would be like mentally slandering, even if I never said anything.
I don’t feel guilty at all for posting here. God has used these sites in my life. No, I’m not wrong to be here. I’m sure. Maybe I’m not exactly a refugee, but I was in bondage and needed to be set free. So the refugees have helped me to get there I guess. Thanks again!
If you weren’t talking to me, nevermind. : )
Canary,
Interesting comparison with the sci-fi movie. Great comments from Galatians as well. As you know, I’ve delved into my own study of Galatians due in part to your discussions on legalism. I am surprised at how pervasive it is in church life and am determined to purge it from my walk. I’ve seen the damage first hand. Unfortunately.
Bree, I’ll be praying for you and your family as you sort through all this. Blessings!
Quizzler,
You’re funny. I like that.
5yearsin,
I bet you WERE proud of your hubbie for going to bed! Reminds me of something my husband said to our (nonSGM) pastor a few years back. The pastor was heading out to yet another spiritual retreat for three days of seeking the Lord, paid for by our tithes. We didn’t begrudge him these little trips, but sometimes we felt he had lost sight of the real world. The pastor told my husband, please pray for us – we’re going on retreat. My husband replied, please pray for me – I’m going to work. LOL.
Bree wrote: I don’t feel guilty at all for posting here. God has used these sites in my life. No, I’m not wrong to be here. I’m sure. Maybe I’m not exactly a refugee, but I was in bondage and needed to be set free. So the refugees have helped me to get there I guess. Thanks again!
Me – Bree- good luck with your meeting!!!!! I am glad you are reading/posting at these sites!!!!1 The CONVERSATION is important, very important. We are all believers on this site and it;s important to discuss what we see as wrong and the discussion of doctrine and beliefs IS very important – it helps us undertsand God better.
What becomes almost humorous is the way SGM assumes they are the only ones with the correct viewpoint, which only serves to further the impression that they are existing more and more like an island, surrounded by a larger Christendom that holds to opposing, yet valid, views. SGM is mistaken if they think blogs such as these should be ignored. Unless SGM begins to listen to their critics, it won’t be long before they realize the limits of the island they’re on.
SGM likes to assume that they have built SGM upon the shoulders of the apostles, prophets, puritans, and the reformers. Let’s see, who else? Ah yes, the likes of Charles Spurgeon, John Owen, Jonathan Edwards, and Greg Norman. Ok maybe not Greg Norman, but I’ve heard CJ mention him so much you would think Norman was a theologian and not a golfer.
The problem for SGM is that throughout the years they haven’t demonstrated that they are interested in being united with everyone – including the members of their own churches. They leave everyone out of the loop, assume the position of apostolic authority over God’s people, while being openly critical of other churches and Christian groups.
SGM likes to think they can control people and information by the use of biblical threats of unity, as evidenced in their ‘bad reports’ handout. In order to be biblically united, one must do things the SGM way. If there is disunity, SGM blames it on anyone who disagrees with them. Well, unity isn’t necessarily built that way. There will come times where there is open disagreement, and it’s not divisive to say so. The correction of injustices will favor the victims of the injustice over the perpetrators of the injustice. I think the longer SGM ignores their critics, and the injustices they have perpetuated, it will be like those that refuse to listen to the warning signals of an approaching storm.
SGM can attempt to demonize what is being said here, and continue to turn a deaf ear to criticism. They can label all of this as evil, and try and persuade people not to listen. That seems to be their response. But God is in what is being said here. People here are telling the truth. So let the storm winds blow.
SGM acts as if diversity is a bad thing – even if they have people of different races as leaders, there is absolutely no diversity of thought – it all flows down for ceeeeeeejay.
SGM defenders – where did cj get his apostolic authority?????????? Last I checked, it didn’t come from the Pope or any of the patriarchs of the orthodox church…… He’s is a self-proclaimed “apostle”
Brother Cavil (sorry, I’m a big BSG fan, couldn’t resist!)- you studied in the eastern orthodox church, what are your thoughts?
“The idol of sleep”
Did you realize that sleep deprivation is a form of mind control? I could have predicted its implementation in SGM. I would imagine that it is sometimes utilized in Pastors College. I have seen this brainwashing technique used in another well-known organization. It was EXTREMELY effective!!!
I’m so glad that the Bible records numerous times when Jesus slept because he was so exhausted! We know that the Son of God was without sin, so calling sleep an idol is just another foolish rant by CJ.
Finally, TELLING THE TRUTH IS NOT SLANDER!!!
5yearsinPDI said,
“Freedom..yeah its true, but maybe 10 years ago. Hub went down to a big men’s pow-wow in Gaithersburg and he ended up walking out of the meeting in disgust, he was so tired after working all week and then having to drive to DC. They had a schedule printed out but the meeting ran late and CJ informed all the men that he was going to ignore the schedule, and he expected them to stay and listen to him, and not serve the idol of sleep; too many people make sleep an idol.”
I know we’ve joked with the “AMWAY” comparisons…but I had to laugh and make the comparison once again after reading this.
We were “in AMWAY” for several years and attended HUNDREDS of Amway rallies and big functions (Free Enterprise Day, Family Reunion, Dream Weekend, monthly rallies where “diamonds” were the guest speakers, etc.) The speakers ALWAYS talked later than planned and if you wanted to be seen as a “committed” distributor by your upline, you stayed until the last speaker finished.
It was typical for the night session crowds to consist of wives asleep on their husbands shoulders, and a few with children asleep on the floor beside them.
Just had to share…
-Kindred
Btw, we were told as Amway distributors not to EVER ”talk negative” about “the business” (AMWAY), and to NEVER, EVER say anything “negative” about your upline. It would be very damaging to the success of your distributorship if your downline thought your upline or “the business” was anything less than perfect.
This was during the 70′s and early 80′s when all the “positive thinking” motivational books and speakers were the rage. Thus the reason for the phrase “talking negatively.”
Freedom, BSG, seriously? Did you watch BSG last night? Totally blew me out of the water. One of the best episodes ever.
I’ll be rewatching it on the webcast when I get a chance. (Once I um…do my calculus homework, hmmm)
Anyway, its nice to know there are other BSGeeks here.
Oh, and to preserve the dignity of our dear poster, Brother Cadfael
Brother Civil http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brother_Cavil
Brother Cadfael (a noble character) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadfael
‘Turns out our Brother Civil is quite a nemesis.
Sorry, left something out…
The Amway speakers would all joke about the “need for sleep” and make fun of anyone falling asleep…that there would come a time when we could sleep all we wanted. Like 5years’ husband, many of these couples had driven for hours after work just to attend the Friday night session.
They would frequently address the topic of “exhaustion”, as well. Their favorite phrase was “I’d rather burn out, than rust out!” Kinda reminds you of how SGM expects EVERYONE to serve, serve, serve and to faithfully attend care group and every meeting and function sponsored.
I would opt for an alternative to burning or rusting. Howabout balance, grease the axels and recharge the batteries.
I’m with you, DB.
That’s why we didn’t make good Amway distributors.
We did make it to “silver pin” one month…but never gold.
(Sigh)
A Kindred Spirit,
Been there, done that in Amway. Everything you have shared is 100% correct!!! You and I had identical experiences in that business. Kinda reminds me of the similar stories I have been reading about SGM written by people who don’t even know each other. Incredibly, CJ and Co. are calling their testimonies slander. There’s an eerie connection between Amway and SGM. I believe someone in SGM leadership must have copied Amway’s techniques for mind control. What do you think?
Yeah, Wanda.
Kris & I have discussed the similarities between AMWAY & SGM frequently throughout the threads on the survivors’ blog. I first brought it up back in June under the “PR Machine” thread.
This is a good thread and I don’t want to get Jim and the others off-topic. I just had to share that after reading about C.J. making that statement about sleep. How ridiculous…not to mention inconsiderate! He can sleep whenever he likes…he doesn’t work a regular J-O-B! (Remember the Amway jingles about your J-O-B?)
If you want to pick it up at survivors I think Kris’ most recent comment about the “AMWAY similarity” was #188 under the “Apologies & Some Tweaking” thread. Or we could just pick it up on her current thread sometime.
Sorry Jim, continue on…
Oh, and Jim, I hope my friend “Joel” has an oppotunity to read this. (I don’t know if you two have “met” and had an opportunity to “chat.”)
Thanks for posting it again…
“I know many of us have had bad experiences while bringing observations to our SGM pastors in the past.
Please don’t forget what to expect-
Expect to see a new humility from your pastors. If confronted, they will no longer turn the tables on you, but will actually listen. It is crucial that we understand this. They will listen, appear very humble, but will change nothing. They sit in the seat of Moses, and you don’t. Humility and leadership in SGM are antithetical. A well practiced humble demeanor does not equal humility. I hate to break it to you, but the guy trying to sell you a car doesn’t really want to be your best friend.
What should you do?
When you confront your newandimprovedmorehumblethanever pastor, ask him for a response. If there is verbal repentance, ask him what active repentance looks like. Ask him to define repentance. How is one saved-faith and repentance. What does repentance mean in the context of salvation? Does it have a different meaning in interpersonal relationships?
Watch for signs of active repentance.
One more prediction…
You won’t see it.”
Kindred-
I love to chat with Joel. I think he has his hands full on survivors…
I’m criticized on a regular basis for the content and opinion of our guests-the commenters. This is odd, and usually comes from people who don’t like or don’t understand the nature of a blog.
One frequent criticism relates to “rabbit trails”. I’ve clearly stated that I don’t care if people want to talk about their dogs here.
I’m not a big fan of the “all the guys are bald” threads, but people are allowed to say what they like, within reason.
Some critics will jump on the “CJ on sleep” comments, as it’s an old view of his, which has changed.
I would only remind them that it’s impossible to keep track of CJ’s flip-flops.
Everything said here is not currently accurate. maybe some of what is said here was never accurate.
A wise reader will spit out the bones, and what is true will resonate with them.
Just heading off what you will hear if you mention the blogs to your pastor.
Happy to help…
Clarion,
In regards to your 9:55: I see what you are saying. A body of believers cannot have unity without the Holy Spirit. Without His help, bringing together so many different folks with different backgrounds can only be uniformity, at best. I think that is why so many people who don’t “fit in” have had to leave SGM. Only the Holy Spirit can bring unity to a tax collector, a Doctor, a couple of fishermen, a prostitute, and an ex-Pharisee. Can you imagine what that would have been like without the Spirit of Jesus? Christianity would have expired centuries ago!
SGM will never respond to the blogs in the manner one would expect or hope. The same way JW’s, Mormon’s, Amway enthusiasts, and every other “groupie” out there doesn’t respond to attacks on them. They turn up the volume of “we’re right and they are deceived and don’t now what they are missing”
There is certainly a mentality here that bears scrutiny. What is it that makes SOME, not all, people flock to such organizations and ministries only to come away with no identity at all, having been totally consumed and spit out by the organization? And why do others see it for what it is?
I will share something here and hope it doesn’t offend – but once I was asked to attend a pyramid business event by a friend. (I won’t say which business, but you all know the various ones out there that make people crazy sometimes) I went to make her happy since she was my friend I had no desire to be come a consultant, despite her numerous requests to do so. While there, these women were literally jumping up and down, cheering, clapping, all euphoric which reminded me of a worship service! And all I could think was “This is like a cult!” It freaked me out. I must have had that deer-caught-in the headlights look so my friend leaned over and laughed and said “I know, that’s the way I thought the first time I came too, but it really is ok.”
How much like SGM is that? We see something odd, but dismiss it over time. She did this herself, as did I with all the SGM hype. Why? What makes us turn off the radar inside our heads that is saying “something is wrong here” and stay? It is all part of the manipulation, control that happens to varying degrees. This is where I would recommend someone read one of the many excellent books on spiritual abuse, manipulation and control, authoritarian churches, etc..it really does give some of the answers as to the set up of the systems. Then you can ask yourself why you personally were drawn (or not). Identify weakenesses and become strong so it does not happen again. That is what I have been focusing on in my own life anyway for what it is worth.
SGM higher ups will not admit fault, just like the head director of a pyramid business who has profitted off it would ever suggest she might have used those under her to get where she is, or make some decisions that were not in the best interests of others to get where she is. They are so driven by some internal desire and need all else doesn’t matter. CJ and those who have profitted at the expense of the sheep under them are no different. He is driven by a need so great, he is not about to suddenly back track and admit fault because that would me he gained what he did in an ungodly manner, and then he won’t be able to enjoy it. And it is all about enjoying his idol. It is for all of us.
UNTIL the Spirit comes, and brings conviction or judgment. One or the other will come eventually because God is not mocked, so CJ and the rest of these false shepherds better be ready. He’s actually already here..they just don’t see Him.
Wow, Bree, I was just reading True Spirituality by Francis Schaeffer, and the following jumped out at me (leaped is more like it):
from p. 85 (The Fruitful Bride)
“In justification the basis is the finished work of Jesus Christ; in sanctification it is the finished work of Christ. In justification we must see, acknowledge, and act upon the fact that we cannot save ourselves. In sanctification we must see, acknowledge, and act upon the fact that we cannot live the Christian life in our own strength, or in our own goodness.
In justification, the instrument by which we receive the free gift of God is faith, which believes God as He has given us His promises in the Bible. In sanctification, the instrument by which we receive the free gift of God is faith, which believes God as He has given us His promises in the Bible. It is exactly the same thing. There is one difference between the practice of justification and sanctification. As justification deals with our guilt, and sanctification deals with the problem of the power of sin in our lives as Christians, justification is once for all, and the Christian life is moment by moment. There is a difference in that one deals with the guilt of my sins, and the other deals with the power of sin in my life.
We accept Christ as Savior at one moment and our guilt is gone on the basis of the value of the finished work of Jesus Christ. But after we become Christians, the moments proceed, the clock continues to tick; and in every moment of time, our calling is to believe God, raise the empty hands of faith, and let fruit flow out through us.”
DB Wrote: Freedom, BSG, seriously? Did you watch BSG last night? Totally blew me out of the water. One of the best episodes ever.
Me – Yep, HUGE fan, been watching since the miniseries. It’s interesting to see some of the similarities between cj and brother cavil (AKA John)
Jim – good point on the cj flip-flops. Way too many to count. To my knowledge, he has never admited he was ever wrong during his flip flops.
I don’t think the problem is in how they (Powlison, CJ, SGM, Tim Keller) DEFINE slander, it is how they apply that definition. Yes, “kata” denotes position, and in this case, “against.”
But if you apply this definition to anyone and everything that speak negatively then Jesus would be guilty of slandering the Pharisees, Paul would be guilty of slandering Alexander and John Mark, Peter would be guilty of slandering the Jews for crying out loud! And don’t forget Nathan would be guilty of slandering King David when he cofronted him..and Deborah slandering Barak, and so on..
We aren’t all Balaams simply because we speak out. What ridiculous logic, once again, SGM uses. Do these people even HAVE a brain? As for Tim Keller and Powlison, someone should contact them and tell them what their article is being used for – to cover up and defend the sins of leadership in SGM.
hey..I just realized, for once SGM didn’t redefine something because it WORKS to their advantage in this case – but they did misapply it, so again, manipulation. Usually they can manipulate by redefining Biblical terms and then applying then out of context, but it is equally effective and profitable for them to use a Biblical definition and simply misapply it.
We need to use Biblical definitions and apply them Biblically as well, not in a manner that protects ourselves, our idols, our desires, our agendas…it is all to be to exalt Christ and bring Him glory..
and they talk about US not “living out” the gospel…geez.
I thought you all might enjoy this exceptional quote from Sam Storms:
“There are people, professing Christian people, who are determined to
bring you under their religious thumb. They are bent on making you a
slave of their conscience. They have built a tidy religious box, without
biblical justification, and strive to stuff you inside and make you conform
to its dimensions. They are legalists, and their tools are guilt, fear,
intimidation, and self-righteousness. They proclaim God’s unconditional
love for you, but insist on certain conditions before including you among
the accepted, among the approved elite, among God’s favored few.
I’m not talking about people who insist you obey certain laws or moral
rules in order to be saved. Such people aren’t legalists. They are lost!
They are easily identified and rebuffed. I’m talking about Christian
legalists whose goal is to enforce conformity among other Christians in
accordance with their personal preferences. These are life-style legalists.
They threaten to rob you of joy and to squeeze the intimacy out of your
relationship with Jesus. They may even lead you to doubt your salvation.
They heap condemnation and contempt on your head so that your life is
controlled and energized by fear rather than freedom and joy and delight
in God. Rarely would these folk ever admit to any of this. They don’t
perceive or portray themselves as legalists. If they are reading this they
are probably convinced I’m talking about someone else. They’d never
introduce themselves: “Hi! My name is Joe/Julie. I’m a legalist and my
goal is to steal your joy and keep you in bondage to my religious
prejudices. Would you like to go to lunch after church today and let me
tell you all the things you’re doing wrong?”
I suspect that some of you are either legalists or, more likely, the victims
of legalism. You live in fear of doing something that another Christian
considers unholy, even though the Bible is silent on the subject. You are
terrified of incurring their disapproval, disdain, and ultimate rejection.
Worse still, you fear God’s rejection for violating religious traditions or
cultural norms that have no basis in Scripture but are prized by the
legalist. You have been duped into believing that the slightest
misstep or mistake will bring down God’s disapproval and disgust.
When you are around other Christians, whether in church or a home
group or just hanging out, do you feel free? Does your spirit feel relaxed
or oppressed? Do you sense their acceptance or condemnation? Do you
feel judged, inadequate, inferior, guilty, immature, all because of your
perceived failure to conform to what someone else regards as “holy”?
Jesus wants to set you free from such bondage! As Paul said, “you were
called to freedom”!”
– Sam Storms http://www.enjoyinggodministri.....liberty/
TN-
Thank you!
Awesome quote from an esteemed reformed charismatic….
Amazing quote. It says everything. We can all go home, now.
Well shoot, we can’t. There are still too many saints stuck in the system of legalism, while being taught that they have the true gospel. Sigh. Guess we’d better roll up our sleeves. We’re going to be here a while.
I was pondering on top of my cage a while ago. If I were a Pastor who loved God’s people, how would I handle it if not just one but many people came to me and said they felt controlled and used by me? OMG – I would want to know EVERYTHING. How did I controll you? How did I use you? How did I hurt and betray you? All I ever wanted to do was teach you about Jesus Christ. How could I have hurt any of you? Please, please, tell me what I must do to make it right!
If my reaction is like this, and I am not a pastor. why isn’t there even one SGM pastor willing to come on here and admit to doing wrong? Why? Where is the love?
Canary, there must be something good in the air on top of your cage. :-)
In my narrow, protected little world, my experience was bring up an issue with the “senior pastor” and he will listen, at least give that impression. Then comes the mantra of his call from God, his vast experience as a pastor, and how we should submit to him because God has put him over us–you know the “covering thing.” And the finally, he infoems you of your pride and arrogance and sends you away with CJ’s book on humility.
And by the way MARKS you as someone who should be ignored in any “important ” “service” in the “church.” The man (victum) I am talking about here signed up for 4 ministry opportuinties in the “church” and was never called, asked. or approached for any of them. He wondered why and what was going on. It is just the SG way.
Canary and Juli,
I believe that CJ and most of those in leadership sincerely believe they are doing the right thing. I mean I believe that they sincerely believe they are doing the best they can for God’s people. (Not true, I know.) I think what it comes down to, and I know some may disagree, is having as their aim, their main agenda, the pursuit of holiness. My husband said it was more like the pursuit of sinlessness because it’s more about what we don’t do. But anyway, you get the idea. If the aim is holiness of these people that they believe God has entrusted to their care, then everything else will bow to that aim.
Now I can’t speak regarding those pastors who have sinned against all of you and are being unrepentant. That’s another story. But speaking about the legalism and the control itself, I think it boils down to their aim. (I hope that doesn’t sound insensitive.)
FF, thank you so much for sharing that quote! It was just what I’ve been thinking, hoping to be true. And she puts it so beautifully, so clearly. I pray God will open many more eyes.
TN, thanks for sharing this quote. I like how he differentiates between those who say, ‘do this to be saved,’ and those who ‘enforce conformity, life-style legalists.’ Those ideas are helpful in better understanding what we mean when we say, ‘legalism.’
When I asked my pastor if he had ever encountered “my problem” before (I confessed legalism and idolatry of the church) He said “No.”
He’s been a pastor 27 years and he has NEVER dealt with idolatry of the church itself? Or legalism in the church?
Clearly it goes without saying he isn’t gifted with discernment.. mercy and helps- yes, but not discernment.
Anyways…his response made me feel even MORE insane and like somehow I didn’t really know what was going on - which I didn’t. I didn’t know there were “higher powers” at work – I’m talking about both the human kind and the spiritual kind.
We have to keep teaching and sharing that legalism in sanctification IS the problem with most Christians, since many don’t believe you can work for salvation (although some do, I don’t deny that) but most of the brothers and sisters steeped in shepherding and the like also believe in eternal security, perserverance of the saints, etc…so when we say legalism, they respond with ”huh?”
it makes no sense how this type of practice could be the result of such grace-based doctgrines..geez, they are called doctrines of GRACE after all, not the doctrines of works! Yet somehow, many of us didn’t experience much grace in SGM churches. I think if you experience grace from the Body of Christ it surely helps you to experience and understand the grace of God. When you are surrounded with people who won’t accept you unless you do x,y, and z, then you start thinking God is that way too..
a wicked, wicked system of works. Who has bewitched SGM?
“We have to keep teaching and sharing that legalism in sanctification IS the problem with most Christians, since many don’t believe you can work for salvation (although some do, I don’t deny that) but most of the brothers and sisters steeped in shepherding and the like also believe in eternal security, perserverance of the saints, etc…so when we say legalism, they respond with ”huh?””
That is so true. When I tried to explain the legalism no one understood. So I then tried explaining it. I believe many of the sheep have good intentions and honestly believe they are doing the correct thing (following after godliness) but it is taken to the far and becomes a legalistic mindset. My friends also couldn’t understand how holding the local church as an idol was a bad thing because the church is ”good.”
Taking Note,
First time poster here (I think), but long time reader. I LOVED the link you gave to Dr. Storms. Very clear and explanatory. I did a little exploring of his website and there’s a lot more there that can be used in personal Bible study, thinking/contemplation, and prayer. I’ve bookmarked it for later reading and study. Thank you!
London
London, thanks for saying hello! Welcome to the Refuge!
Bethany, EXACTLY the same thing happend to me. I trid to explain and people didn’t get it, and then when I finally just came out and said “The CHURCH is my idol” they said “Well how can that be? The church is good?”
My care group leader said that the church EXPOSES idolatry, not encourages it,and is accountability. And I said, “yeah, I know it is SUPPOSED to work that way..but in my case it didn’t!”
How can the church protect us from itself?
“How can the church protect us from itself?”
Love that question! I would also love to hear what a pastor would have to say in reply. The system they are setting up sets the church up to become our idol. I started to realize that as I talked to my friends that they can no longer see certain aspects of idolatry when it comes to the local church. It was really sad to realize that no one makes a distinction between evangelism/missions and planting churches.
:-/
London Welcome!
Canary, we happen to own Serenity, but I didn’t remember much about it, so I’m just watching it again now. It’s a powerful message and an amazing metaphor for legalism. There’s the line from one of those who administered the drug (which you likened to legalism) where she says, “We meant it for the best.” Of course those who administer legalism mean it for our best as well.
And then when the good guys are making up their minds to go public and “pass on the bad report,” the captain says, “Somebody has to speak for these people…[because of] the belief that they [the government] can make people better, and I do not hold to that. So no more running. I aim to misbehave.” Then one of the crew says this inspiring line, “[If you] can’t do something smart, do something right.”
Well, I get it, too, Canary. Glad you mentioned it. : )
Hi Bethany, I think that since the church (leadership) has as it’s aim the “pursuit of holiness” instead of the pursuit of God, then they also are committing an idolatry. They try very hard to make it O.K. But I really do not think they see that they use even “the cross” in their unbiblical pursuit.
The goal is all wrong and all the effort to reach it is directed at “self,” rather than toward God. Everything bows to the goal, even their particular polity which they deem necessary as the enforcement of that pursuit.
Bethany,
Yes, I agree with you whole heartedly about the pastors sincerely believing that they are doing what they are called to.
Mentioning Brent again, if I may, when I knew him, he was just as hard on himself (even more so) than he was on the rest of us. He was an honorable man at least, because he practiced everything he preached. No problem with sincerity there. I suppose the judaisers that Paul spoke of in Phil. (I think – need to look it up), were very sincere in preaching legalism, but Paul still called them “dogs”. I am not calling any pastor a dog, myself. Back then, to call a Jew a dog was the worst form of insult.
Paul MEANT his words. It angered him when anyone tried to give a gospel apart from grace. It shoud anger us, or at least stir us to speak the truth to everyone we can, like we try to do here. Anyway, good insights, Bethany.
Bree,
I was in PDI near its beginnings. Before they took over our church, we were always talking about building a New Testament church. When the apostles came in, we began to hear about seeking holiness (that was after the church split). Then, we heard how we should have a passion for doctrine (Brent’s words). THEN, it became all about the cross. Do you think, eventually, these guys will finally make it to the risen tomb, and Jesus Christ? No insults intended, but it does seem to me that the focus keeps being redefined. Wonder what will be next? Or will they remain at the cross, powerless, comfortless, and sinful? Only time will tell.
Gratefully Dis.,
Yes, the air is good where I perch. Notice who gets the “fruits” of my dinner!
Canary,
Yes I see that. The recipient doesn’t appear very grateful though, does he, or is that a she–oops, only males allowed.
Bree (again),
And then when the good guys are making up their minds to go public and “pass on the bad report,” the captain says, “Somebody has to speak for these people…[because of] the belief that they [the government] can make people better, and I do not hold to that. So no more running. I aim to misbehave.” Then one of the crew says this inspiring line, “[If you] can’t do something smart, do something right.”
So glad you got what I was saying! Don’t you think it was funny that the good guys were cowboys who flew a spaceship? “I aim to misbehave.” Now, them thar is quotable words!
What amazes me is that the crew of the ship were just ordinary people trying to make a living beneath the radar of a corrupt government. They weren’t special. They each had their own faults. Let’s just say, most of them were out to keep each other safe and alive during a time of great turmoil in the universe.
They didn’t plan on saving people. They sort of “fell” into it. Once they understood what was really going on, well, they followed the code of the old west. Innocent people were dying because of the government’s wrong doing. The crew could not ignore this. So, these rather selfish, sinful, unruly men and women risked their lives to get the truth out.
I aim to misbehave – ha-ha. Can you imagine if a whole lot of ordinary SGM folk decided to do this – misbehave, by asking questions, coming in late on Sundays, not tything, skipping Care group, reading books NOT from the book table, challenging a sermon during the sermon? Oops, better not instigate…
So cowboys, saddle up. If we can’t do something smart, we aim to do something right. We are revealing the truth about legalism!
I must add that “Serenity” has some unsavory, sci-fi violence. The really bad guys are cannabals, though I find the action more scary than gruesome. The movie doesn’t focus on violence like slasher movies do. I’m not promoting the movie, just how the story compares a little with what we do here.
canary-
This could be my motto- If we can’t do something smart, we aim to do something right.
Obviously, the mark is often missed. I’d rather take a swing and miss than sit on the bench.
Jim,
I gettcha. We are weak in our flesh, and make mistakes. Our weaknesses and hidden faults, as David puts it, sometimes make us say or do something not so “smart”. But we are aiming to do something right. Like in “Serenity”, the good guys were not perfect in any way, except that they saw the suffering of the innocent, and decided to “misbehave” (I LOVE that quote!).
If those men and women in “Serenity” had decided to become model citizens before setting out to give the truth to the universe, the universe would have become din-din to the really bad guys. The Pastors in SGM seem to expect perfection from anyone who corrects them. Won’t happen. So here we are, in all our imperfections, covered by the blood, getting the truth of the good news out to people who are in bondage to a horribe, controlling system that ought not be practiced in the church. I wasn’t kidding when I said before that legalism cannibalizes our faith.
So, swing away, Jim!
Okay, maybe I’m getting too corny, but did you ever see “Signs”?
Another sci-fi…when the alien came into the house to go after our heroes, Meryl was told to “swing away”. All his adult life had set him up for that moment. You see, Meryl was an ex-baseball player. He could hit a ball so hard it made records. However, he also made another record – the most amounts of strikes ever. He took every ball that came at him, and tried to hit it. When asked why he did this, he said, “It didn’t seem right not to swing.” So, when the alien came after his nephew, Meryl grabbed his keep sake bat off the wall, swung away, and killed the alien.
I think of Peter, Matthew, Luke, Paul, Mary…all the saints that went before us. Did they know of their faults? Did they, fisherman, tax collector, doctor, prostitute, and Pharisee, ever see themselves as perfect, able to spread the gospel in its purity? Huh, I think not. We are justified by faith, sanctified through faith, and we’d rather swing and miss, than stay benched. We need the Holy Spirit to guide us. Then, like Meryl, we swing away, because “it doesn’t seem right not to swing”.
Gratefully Disillusioned,
Canary,
Yes I see that. The recipient doesn’t appear very grateful though, does he, or is that a she–oops, only males allowed.
HA! Actually, I’ve seen women be far more Pharisical than some men I’ve known. Women can be alot crueler in their judging of other women. Maybe it is because we are so insecure, so ready to follow, or so desiring to be looked at as successful in our Christian walk.
I’m not dissing women, here. I just know what I’ve seen. When the Pastor’s wife gives her teaching on how to be an amazing wife, we take our notes, scribbling furiously. Then, we try hard to manage our lives and family the same way. I really think we are afraid. Fear motivates us. We love our families and children, and want God’s protection over them. So we do what we are told, thinking, superstitiously I might add, that God will then keep us all safe. We also take pride in our wonderfully behaved children, our clean houses, and our well cared for husbands. Then, we look condescendingly upon women who aren’t doing as well.
Those of us who don’t do as well (ME!), feel condemned and only try harder in our flesh. We burn out. When I finally burned out, I finally found the true gospel. So, thank God for my burn out, and his forgiveness for all the times that I, as a pharisee, judged women whose kids didn’t behave, or whose house was a mess when I visited. Not that my house was any cleaner! Thank you God, for your mercy in letting all my spinning plates fall about my feet, breaking into tiny pieces. When I stopped all the nonsense, I was finally able to learn about grace.
Canary,
Very well said about the gospel at the end of the burn out!!!! Amen and amen.
I know this is off the subject, but is anything going on with the Chesapeake situation or is there just a return to the same old, same old? Does anyone have an update?