We have a lot of new readers. It’s obviously impossible to read every post written since June of 08, so many new guests might form an opinion of this blog based on the topic at hand.
I left SGM in June of 06 because of their polity. I started this blog in June of 08 because of their polity.
POLITY IS IMPORTANT. ALL of SGM’s problems flow from their unorthodox, unique-to-SGM polity. It informs their Eccesiology, Missiology, and is the reason for their truncated Gospel, as their polity only allows them to hear their own voice. Their polity has placed them on the outer fringe of orthodoxy, forcing them to use out of context or partial quotes to give the impression that Biblical scholars support their fringe view.
In the recent SGC Chesapeake fiasco, both Keith and Gene appealed to SGM’s polity statement, rather than to Scripture. Very Roman, if you ask me.
By all means, read the SGM polity statement. Then, with the statement in hand, please read what we’ve had to say about SGM’s polity, and our lengthy review of their polity statement.
I’ve tried to find everything we’ve said about SGM polity and link to it in this post.
This gets a little tricky. Click on the words in green below to read a post, then click on the home tab to return here to click on the next post.
Enjoy!
http://sgmrefuge.com/2008/06/14/jerry-bridges-on-the-controller/
http://sgmrefuge.com/2008/06/20/responding-to-leadership-in-sgm/
http://sgmrefuge.com/2008/06/28/trust-your-leaders/
http://sgmrefuge.com/2008/06/26/they-stand-in-the-very-stead-of-god/
http://sgmrefuge.com/2008/07/01/more-responsibilities-of-the-sheep/
http://sgmrefuge.com/2008/07/10/jesus-on-leadership/
http://sgmrefuge.com/2008/07/15/sgm-polity/
http://sgmrefuge.com/2008/07/19/mick-jagger-and-cj-mahaney-on-leadership/
http://sgmrefuge.com/2008/07/21/under-their-thumb/
http://sgmrefuge.com/2008/08/06/the-fruit-of-good-pastoring/
http://sgmrefuge.com/2008/08/24/advice-to-the-lone-ranger/
http://sgmrefuge.com/2008/08/26/more-recommendations-for-cj/
http://sgmrefuge.com/2008/08/28/bible-doctrine-tastes-great-less-filling-burp/
The good stuff starts here….
http://sgmrefuge.com/2008/09/02/polity-episode-1-an-introduction-to-dave-harveys-phantom-menace/
http://sgmrefuge.com/2008/09/04/sovereign-grace-ministries-on-elders/
http://sgmrefuge.com/2008/09/08/sovereign-grace-ministries-on-elders-2/
http://sgmrefuge.com/2008/09/10/polity-episode-2-dave-harveys-quote-in-the-cloned-quote-wars/
http://sgmrefuge.com/2008/09/19/more-grudem-on-polity-and-apostles/
http://sgmrefuge.com/2008/10/01/missiology-part-1-entering-the-minefield-of-the-world/
http://sgmrefuge.com/2008/10/08/missiology-part-2-apostles-epistles-and-missions-oh-my/
February 10th, 2009 at 5:57 pm
wow, we’ve talked A LOT about polity! PK would be proud! (I miss him!) Still praying for you brother, hope you are well..
Jim, I would not have believed a year ago (because I didn’t understand how polity, or more specifically, SGM’s view of it) would be so foundational to so many of the, ahem, concerns we all have. It seems to keep going back to polity, how the church is structured, and we can’t get away from it. This pattern is very noticeable to me now, but it took me oh, about 10 months!
I know the readings took a nose dive when the polity series began, but it is good to talk about all this, because is is, at some point, something we all need to think and pray about.
So I guess I would encourage those who have been gone a while, talked through things, gotten over some initial shock and fear and hurt, and are in a place where they can begin “unpacking” (I hate that SGM buzz word but it works here) the TRUTH about polity and why it is important in the SGM equation.
If you are a recent refugee, don’t worry about getting all this figured out – people write volumes of thick, boring books about polity and it can be overwhelming, but if taken in small pieces, as it is here, you can digest it easily enough.
For those like Tim and others who recently joined a SGM church, or at thinking of joining, you definately should arm yourself with knowledge about the inner working of SGM and why they “do what they do” because it does all come back to polity. If you don’t learn the language they are speaking, you’ll be lost in the conversation as they seek to translate FOR you what they mean..don’t let it happen. Read their papers for yourself, which they would recommend, then compare to Scripture..do some studying up on church history..how has this worked in the past? What are some of the potential (or even typical) abuses of various systems?
Let me give you an example – the Catholic church figured out 1000 years ago that a person’s confessor and spiritual counselor should NOT be the same person. How did they come to this realization? Abuses of authority. Not to say all abuses in the Catholic church are absent, clearly not, but how does ANYONE find a flaw in the methods or interpretation of Scripture? In the fruit – the outworkings of implementing it.
The many many stories you read here are the outworkings of SGM’s polity, bottom line. Maybe they never realized it before, but the more we share our experiences, it will eventually be known to more than those hurt by the “system” that some serious adjustments and changes need to be made. Just like the Catholic church did.
By the way, SGM still believes it is OK for the same person to be your confessor and spiritual guide. You are encouraged to confess sin to your pastor and care group leader, AND receive counsel from them…guess in this area, the Catholic church is one up on SGM. Go figure.
February 10th, 2009 at 5:57 pm
Okay, I’ve only read the first two, and my jaw dropped!
Profound!
February 10th, 2009 at 6:27 pm
Seeking-work your way to PK’s stuff, which starts with “polity-episode 1″.
We were writing at the same time, and when I saw what he had written, I bowed out and asked him to run with it.
By the time he was finished with Harvey’s document, the stawman’s clothes were piled in a heap on the cornfield.
Juli-no one misses PK more than I do.
February 10th, 2009 at 6:33 pm
Jim….Who is PK?????
February 10th, 2009 at 6:34 pm
Found it….sorry.
February 10th, 2009 at 7:05 pm
I thought you were wrong on this, Jim. I really believed that if they could only see the error in their take on the gospel in light of Scripture and “fixed” it then everything else would fall in place. Freedom in Christ would equal freedom for all members. But now I can see that because of the polity, they aren’t even going to consider what Scripture I bring to them to try to show them where they’ve erred. It seems that we’re actually taught to submit to our leaders/pastors rather than to the Word of God.
Like what CJ wrote about pastors standing in the stead of God–how can God’s Word compete with that? And how can he write things like that without his “friends” (Piper, Sproul, etc.) speaking up?
And I don’t know what it would take for them to see the error of their polity either. Yes, it’s what needs to change, but how? If we can’t appeal to the Word of God because of their polity, then what hope is there? I have no more hope that I could make any difference. I know God is able, but maybe the way He’ll be dealing with them won’t be what I had in mind.
February 10th, 2009 at 7:15 pm
Please let us know how he’s doing (unless that would violate his privacy.)
I miss him and have been praying for him.
Um, editing for clarity, I’m talking about PK.
February 10th, 2009 at 7:54 pm
Bree, I feel the way as you, so often – and I agree, maybe what the Lord is planning is not what we would expect – come to think of it, when does God EVER act like we would think (His ways are higher than our ways…)? haha
But I really love that about Him, ya know?
February 10th, 2009 at 10:49 pm
Juli, thanks for the reminder. God’s ways are higher than our ways. He is in control. And He is good.
February 10th, 2009 at 10:59 pm
I’m lost… that’s just a few links
February 10th, 2009 at 11:21 pm
I have been thinking about the ‘friends’ thing.
And it is interesting to think that many among us were in PDI/SGM for years and years and years, two times a week in meetings and services, youth group, etc., and only smelled the rottenness after that time.
If former longtime members were fooled, it is only to be expected that other pastors, who are up to their own ears in the needs of their people, the call on their lives to travel, teach, write, and the needs of their families would preclude major involvement in the Emperor With No Clothes.
It is sort of like the guest at the wedding: he is dressed right, and every one assumes he is with someone else. But he is a gate-crasher.
I would have loved to have a listening device inside Ken Sande’s mind the last month.
I guess we can’t expect that Piper, for example, who churns out books, studies, pastors, husbands, fathers, and fights for his life in a cancer battle, takes the time to peruse CJ’s blog. T4G and conferences like that are simply not the place for these guys to bond and hang and confess their sins to one another. They fly in, they teach, they counsel, they sleep, they eat, they pray, they write, they call their families, they talk on the phone, they watch a game, they check out, they fly home.
Jim is right: polity is THE thing.
Other churches tend not to let a Pope rise to the top, because of the way they planned their government. I think that Piper and Sproul, et al, aren’t interested in vetting CJ–and probably cannot conceive of the fact that he has set in motion a church in which no one else could, either.
February 10th, 2009 at 11:22 pm
I miss PK, too!!!!!
Blessings to you, my brother! I hope your silence here means that you are having great success ministering within your beloved SGM!
February 10th, 2009 at 11:46 pm
I have been shunned from my “local” church for alot of reasons. One of the not so painful ones is actually for reading and posting on the refuge and survivors blog. I studder and try to explain myself, because I am not devisive or bitter (most of the time at least) but I just want to understand. So I ask questions, and my responses are always harsh, judgemental, belittling and certanly not direct answers to any questions that I have primarly raised by reading here and survivors……
Well for example. I NEVER even heard of the word polity. And reading here I have understood in part things that I have seen wrong in major ways. I enjoy this type of learning and feel bad when my questions would be dismissed as “gossip, slander or whatever sin just rolls off the leaders tonge at that particular moment. i should be able to ask (duh…after how many years) Why don’t we have an elder board? If someone is “gifted” yet lacks extreme character is it ok they are in a leadership position? How is our church living out “missions” or are just an apostolic church. I never heard of that either….
I often feel as though I am wiping the crust out of my eyes and seeing more clearly, but yet I still am not sure of so many things…this I am sure of,. I am glad to figure this out outside Sovereign Grace.
February 11th, 2009 at 12:23 am
RT, I actually don’t think it’s so unbelievable that the “Big Guys” would have some knowledge of the dark side of SGM, even if they were not keeping tabs on CJ’s blog. And actually, considering their connections within the Christian community at large, its seems highly unlikely to me that they would not have at least heard of the concerns that even believers outside of SGM are aware of just by knowing people who attend SG churches.
This isn’t the point of this thread, I guess. I just didn’t think my question was so far fetched. My question actually assumed they must know these things and asked why then are they not doing/saying anything about it?
February 11th, 2009 at 1:28 am
Hi Bree!
I don’t think your thinking is far fetched at all!
I have been thinking about this alot lately. I was on the staff of a large (4000) church with a high profile pastor (who shall remain nameless) for several years. It was amazing what he knew and what he did not know. They only have so much time. It would never have occured to him to check out another pastor’s church or church polity or websites or blogs, even if there were red flags. he wouldn’t consider it his business and he was too busy anyway. Is that a good excuse? Maybe or maybe not. I think the elders would have had a problem with him blogging his head off rather than studying, writing, caring for the needs of his own family and flock.
I just don’t think the big dogs are going to come out and beat SGM up. They would leave that to the church…which, paradoxically, is restrained from doing so. And it is not that they don’t care–who knows whether they do or not?
But when do you see leaders in one denomination go after another to rebuke him. CJ tried it with Driscoll, I think, and was laughed off.
Throwing mud at that level gets very messy. It is unfortunate that Keller or Sproul or Piper or MacArthur won’t call him out. Or maybe they have, who knows? They won’t do it publicly, that is for sure.
Also, it is not like Piper and Sproul and JM and Keller all hang out together, much less including CJ. The conferences are not mutual get togethers, they are mostly put on by professionals who invite whom they will. CJ can joke around about all watching football together, but I suspect that was a pretty inbred little bunch on the couch–SGM all.
The vast majority of American believers have never even heard of SGM, as hard as that is to believe. I think that may be changing, but CJ and SGM are really very small fish in a very big evangelical pond in the US. Their influence is growing quickly, certainly, but so is the influence you and all of us have on refuge and survivors and in the lives of our family and friends who are influenced by SGM. This certainly does not diminish or negate the hurt and pain and abuse and weirdness.
But change is probably going to have to come from a combination of pressure from within and pressure from without, but the big dogs, I predict, are not going to get involved publicly.
But we can take heart–25% of SGCC worshiped freely with other believers last week, I think. This is good news–people feeling free to go or stay as they will is a good sign.
February 11th, 2009 at 8:32 am
RT, Maybe this is a sign of more awareness among believers: I was told yesterday (and it was of great encouragment to me) that a professor from Liberty University is aware of SGM and knows that it is very controlling. He voiced this himself to someone I know–it wasn’t that this someone just told him. This person only brought up SGM. I don’t know how he knew, but it made me feel good to know that someone outside does see. As I’m still on the inside, it is sometimes hard to think of the reality of it all.
As far as the big dogs calling CJ out, I don’t think it would have to be like that. It would be something understood by the congregants of their churches, though. I would guess that congregants are aware, not necessarily by being told specifically by these men, what groups their pastors are in disagreement with–doctrinally and such. But that might include an understanding of those groups by the congregants themselves. I guess the control in SGM is part of why no one knows the truth about them. The blogs are making a difference. Without them, I don’t know if I ever would have had the courage to see.
In my previous comment, I mis-worded the line about CJ’s blog. I don’t think that any of these guys are checking out his blog.
February 11th, 2009 at 8:36 am
And there you have it. THIS is why many of us, though we hope the repentance and steps toward change in Chesapeake are sincere and real, are still very concerned. When Gene plops down the polity statement for all to read, accompanied by a strong public announcement of its accuracy and rightness biblically, even AFTER all the specific concerns raised by Esther and the three couples, then we say YIKES! Pro-SGM folks who stop in here may say that we are perpetually negative and nothing will satisfy us, but this is WHY we continue to be shouting the alarm.
One thing that has bugged me about SGM polity is their insistence that they embrace a pluality of elders. Again, this is a redefinition of terms, IMO. Yeah, it’s true they have more than one pastor at most of their churches. Yeah, it’s true they have a leadership team nationally. It is also true that each of these men (men only) have been carefully pruned, groomed, trained, vetted, etc. to fit the SGM mold. So, while they can sort of honestly say they have plurality, it is very carefully CONTROLLED plurality. Is this what Scripture intended? I don’t think so.
Charlie,
I’m sorry you are being shunned. It is so painful. There is absolutely nothing wrong with asking questions about your church’s practices. Why would any pastor be annoyed or intimidated by that? Look at their polity. They have an overinflated, unbalanced view of their own importance and scope of authority as leaders. I have written this before, but the best pastors I have ever had (nonSGM) were the ones whose focus was on helping the sheep discover their giftings, fanning them to flame by training and equipping them to use those giftings, and then turning them loose inside AND outside the church to advance the Kingdom of God. What a completely different focus than SGM. At any rate, I will be praying for you that the Lord will continue to comfort, redirect and restore you! Blessings!
I have to tell you all that recently, as my husband and I were looking for a church home, I emailed the pastor of a local independent church nearby asking questions. Most of my questions were directed at the polity of the church which was a concern especially since they are independent. I asked about pluality of elders, I asked if there was real accountability for him as the senior pastor and how that worked, etc. You get the idea. I never heard back from him. Ha Ha Ha! I guess I came on a little too strong.
February 11th, 2009 at 8:42 am
Jim, I had to thank you for posting these links….although my head is spinning and my heart is aching.
February 11th, 2009 at 9:02 am
{{{{{{ Charlie }}}}}
We will always have questions… they just morph and change as we seek and grow in Him. And He is always faithful to answer our queries. Freedom in Christ is our reward!… and you, dear friend, are free indeed!!!
February 11th, 2009 at 9:04 am
mom,
Just a “few” links… but worth reading!
February 11th, 2009 at 9:55 am
GREAT idea to post the links, Jim! After reading the posts from Seeking, Bree, Charlie, and Remnant, I remembered my absolute amazement and shock from when I first read about CJ saying that pastors stand in the very stead of GOD. It still blows me away. Astounding.
:::::::::::shaking head:::::::::::::::
February 11th, 2009 at 1:47 pm
Hey not sure where to post this fun quote from Covenant Fellowship’s latest message by Andy Farmer…but here it is:
Family Life Series: The Culture
Andy Farmer February 8, 2009
Covenant Fellowship Church
“Real life is lived primarily in real time in real places by real bodies. Pale and pimply
bloggers who spend most of their spare time…opining about themselves and their issues
and in befriending pals made up of pixels are not living life to the full; nor are those whose
lives revolve around videogames; rather they are human amoebas, subsisting in a bizarre
non-world which involves no risk to themselves, no giving of themselves to others, no true
vulnerability, no commitment, no self-sacrifice, no real meaning or value.”
Carl Trueman
February 11th, 2009 at 2:41 pm
Charlie,
I’m sorry to hear you’ve had those experiences. I know they can hurt an awful lot.
You had said, “So I ask questions, and my responses are always harsh, judgemental, belittling and certanly not direct answers to any questions that I have primarly raised by reading here and survivors……”
I don’t think you are referring to your time here, but if you are, I want to offer to you my most sincere aplogies. I wuold have never meant to make you feel as if I was belittling you in any way, shape or from. You are made in the image of God himself. You are precious and one of a kind. So if I said anything to you that was harsh (I know I am capable of it), I am so sorry. I will ask the Lord to help me not to do that in the future.
God bless you loads,
Stunned
February 11th, 2009 at 3:31 pm
Boy, I think Jim just hung his 99 thesis to the church door!
I felt sick when I re-read CJ’s judgement on some atheletes. Good pastoring? Yes, by Jesus Christ. CJ has such an inflated opinion of his position, and those he appoints. To hear the judgemental implications towards men he doesn’t even know was apalling. My goodness, he certainly idolizes the “local church” thing, doesn’t he? Ugh.
I have this to say: when I stand before God upon my death, I will not be looking for CJ or any other Pastor to stand with me. I will be looking for my loving Jesus because He is the one who justified me. I am a saint only because Jesus died and rose again. No pastor will be able to justify me before the living God, nor take credit for my sanctification. I can give my kudos to those who help me along the way (especially my friend, Andrew Murray), but I will throw my crown at the feet of Christ, not the likes of CJ Mahaney. I am feeling truly disgusted right now at what he seems to stand for. Forgive me if that offends.
I have to point out something I’ve remembered from PDI days. We were taught to get on board with the leaders’ vision of the local church (words I am beginning to hate) and run with it. We were told that it was our responsibility to serve them in seeing their vision come to pass. At the time, gullible as I was, it didn’t occur to me that WE are the church. However, that teaching led to the authoritarian rule SGM has today. They, from the beginning, saw us as their pawns, used to make their ideas succeed. The whole focus was rotten from the beginning. The organization started with a little leaven and look how it has fermented! Purge the dough and make it uncontaminated! 1 COR. 5:6-7
February 11th, 2009 at 3:35 pm
Julie,
I told Jim in an earlier post that SGM would come out swinging. They are now demonizing us. They are fighting back from the pulpit by describing us in such horrid ways. Their lack of love and compassion continues to astonish me.
I, for one, do not have pimples. (Preen-preen)
February 11th, 2009 at 3:39 pm
I imagine Andy Farmer might just need his children to help him get his computer set up and running and likely has trouble installing security software and upgrades and, as a result, is intimidated by the entire concept of blogging and, naturally, must resort to lashing out at something he may not understand.
He’s bald now, isn’t he. I remember him when he had hair.
Oh, yes, and I would imagine the rest of us savvies have plenty of real-life friends.
Not all of us live with our parents and blog whilst sitting in our mother’s basement (in our underoos.) Did that mental image actually become a talking point?
February 11th, 2009 at 3:40 pm
And one more thing, Andy, pimples can be used by God as an answer to prayer, so why mention the zits?
February 11th, 2009 at 3:46 pm
Charlie, something I just was researching myself today was the following, and it hopefully will help you understand why you feel the way you do now – so be encouraged, once again, your “reality” is being reinvented now by ACTUAL REALITY, not SGM induced reality that you perceive as real. So it is traumatic at times, and very confusing..press on brother, there is light at the end of that long, dark tunnel..and it is called TRUTH and FREEDOM.
there are characteristics to shame-based systems, such as SGM, below is a smattering of the dynamics at work and the effects on it’s victims – that would be US! I think what you explained is the effect (last one below) of the Obscured Reality we experience in SGM – tell me what you think when you read it and if it “fits” for you…I know it did for me, and still does to some extent, as I continue to work through all the effects by understanding the dynamics..
Dynamic: Manipulation. relationships and behaviors and governed by powerful unspoken rules. These rules are seldom, if ever, said out loud. When spoken out loud many of them sound ridiculous. Yet the unspoken rules communicate the shaming messages. The “can’t talk” rule keeps people quiet by labeling them as the problem if they notice a problem. Because they cannot talk about an unspoken rule, they learn to talk in “code” to convey what they mean. Coding is an example of verbal manipulation. When we code we say something in a crooked manner. Messages are sent through a verbal code that others are supposed to decode.
Manipulation also involves “triangulating” which is simply sending a message to someone through another person instead of delivering it directly. (again, so much to say here, but not enough time)
Effect: Great “radar” – or the ability to pick up tension in situations and relationships, ability to decode the crooked messages of others, saying things in code instead of saying them straight, talking about people instead of to them, message carrying for people, expecting others to know your code, difficulty trusting people, reading other meanings into what people say.
Dynamic: Idolatry. The god being served by the shame-based relationship system is an impossible to please judge, obsessing over their behaviors (things like homeschooling, SGM’s modesty check for women, and so many more things come to mind right now) It is a god invented to enforce the performance standard and to keep the system intact. This is a false god, an idol. Anything you serve besides GOD is an idol. Anything you derive security, sense of life, belonging, sense of purpose that is not God is an idol. SGM was my idol in so many of these areas.
Effects: distorted image of God, increasingly less individual identity in Christ; high anxiety based on other people or external circumstances; people-pleasing; high need to control thoughts, feelings and behaviors of others in order to get a sense of well-being.
Dynamic: Preoccupation with fault and blame. Since performance has so much power in these systems, much is brought to bear to control it. People pay for their mistakes. Responsibility and accountability are not the issues here – fault and blame are. The shame-based system wants confession in order to know WHO to shame, not to bring forgiveness and cleansing as the Bible teaches us. They are seeking to know who to make feel so defective and shameful so they won’t act that way anymore.
Effects: the sense that if something is wrong you must have caused it; a high need to be punished for or to pay for mistakes in order to feel good about yourself; critical of others; giving others the third-degree; need to be right; difficulty forgiving self; difficulty accepting and receiving grace and forgiveness from God.
Dynamic: Obscured reality. In shame-based systems, members have to deny any thought, opinion, of feeling that is different or in opposition to, those in authority. Anything that has the potential to shame or bring judgment on those in authority is ignored, denied, criticised, or condemned. Members are unable to find out about life from normal trial-and-error learning methods because mistakes bring shame, or so they are taught. Interaction outside the system threatens the order of things, brings fear, and is discouraged. The system itself defines reality. So you can’t find out what is “normal” and problems remain, since they are denied.
Effects: out of touch with feelings, needs thoughts; ignoring your “radar” because you are being too critical; feel like no one else understand you; increased confusion and doubt; threatened by opinions of those that differ from your own; afraid to take healthy risks; self-analytical; suspicious and afraid of others; narrow-minded; suffering stress-related illnesses; extreme forms of denial, even delusion.
February 11th, 2009 at 3:50 pm
Canary, you were talking about getting on board with the vision of leadership – several weeks back I was reading the blog of a the wife of a current Pastor’s College student. They are from the Gilbert church, ironically – she was speaking of the upcoming church plants, which have of course been cancelled in Colo Springs, but the second plant in Phoenix is still a go – anyway, she said a phrase that stuck with me, as she discussed her excitement over this endeavor of the church – she used the phrase that “the leadership cast vision”
- interesting. Like fishing, to see who grabs the bait.
but she used this phrase more than once, and I wondered, I bet you start hearing this more and more, a new buzz phrase, maybe old, I’ve been gone a bit now..
February 11th, 2009 at 3:53 pm
yes, they are fighting back, as you said Canary, not on the blogs, but from the pulpit, where they have control and power. They have no power over the blogs or in the real world, only in the fabricated/isolated world of SGM..
false power. Just like Jesus said.
My former pastor has preached some pretty odd messages since he found out about my blog last fall – very manipulative and the timing, well, if you knew what was going on behind the scenes, then you’d see that part. they are available online. Although after writing this, I doubt they will be anymore! hehe (how fast can you pick up that phone this time Craig?)
February 11th, 2009 at 3:57 pm
I am INDIGNANT.
I will answer Mr. Farmer/Trueman.
I am happily married to the same man – been so for nearly 25 years.
We have nearly finished raising five kids.
I keep house (though I DO have several junk drawers and love them).
I have home schooled my children through high school. Three are successfully in college, with my first graduate due out in May (applause, please).
I have seven dogs, and they take alot of my attention, which I love.
My husband and I have befriended a married couple who do not have a loving walk with Jesus. We pray for them, love on them, serve them, watch out for them…this takes alot of care and time.
We just helped a mother and her college age daughter move into another apartment. My family did this, spending a whole Sat. to make sure our friends were settled.
My husband has his own business, from which he supplies to those in need whom God brings to us. He works very hard, for this very purpose.
What else…I can speak to anyone with the love of Jesus in my heart. I am not afraid to be soiled by unbelievers, nor am I afraid to have my children soiled by worldly kids. They have been taught to get out into the world and influence those around them for Christ. They are not afraid. Jesus keeps them safe. They don’t live in a bubble.
I have taught my kids to make good choices and to have faith. I don’t need to look over their shoulders and make every decision for them, even who they marry.
I love to post on the Refuge, in order to help those enslaved by the traditions of men to be set free, to understand the true grace of Jesus. I love the people who post. I love their wisdom, boldness, and understanding of scripture. I love their compassion. Several I have emailed and spoken to frequently by phone. I hope to meet them face to face someday. They are my pals, my peeps, my defenders. I am theirs.
This is a community. It IS reaL. It has brought to light the controlling tendencies and authoritarian polity followed by SGM. Go ahead, pastors. Preach your heart out on how evil we are, how pimply are our faces, how we sit in our mothers’ basements with no jobs, blogging all day. Keep telling how we gossip, slander, and lie. Swing away.
But we will still not go away.
February 11th, 2009 at 3:59 pm
Julie-
That is a fun quote. I actually agree with it.
To be used against us is pretty funny. At 50, pimples aren’t a problem, and as someone who lives in Florida, I’ll compare skin tone with Andy if he likes.
I like Andy. I’m sorry that they made him point man on this.
But yeah-fun quote.
We can obviously expect a full-backdoor (they aren’t interested in full frontal) assault from SGM pastors, as the “apostles” are now giving directives on how to deal with us.
I’ll share more later-back to real life…
February 11th, 2009 at 4:01 pm
I’m proud to be one of canary’s peeps.
February 11th, 2009 at 4:12 pm
Aw Jim, tweet-tweet.
I think the upcoming attacks are going to be quite fun. The pimple quote – well, is that all they could come up with? Hee-hee.
February 11th, 2009 at 4:14 pm
Jim, P.S. – You have a real life? Maybe you should pinch youself to be sure. Or have Carole do it and then get back to me. I would hate to find I am blogging with a fake person…
February 11th, 2009 at 4:33 pm
This is all fake? You all, who have become friends to me, and with whom I will enjoy the new heavens and new earth, are really just PIXELS?
Cool.
Maybe we live in the Matrix?
Or maybe they do?
I don’t have zits, but the wrinkles are coming on fast….hey, can Pixels have wrinkles and body parts that are falling off?
February 11th, 2009 at 4:52 pm
The REAL reality is now being attacked using the same methods, but they don’t work anymore.
February 11th, 2009 at 5:07 pm
Canary,
You *go* girl!
February 11th, 2009 at 5:08 pm
And I’m like Neo or Trinity, I can pass in and out of the Matrix whilst some people still need to take the red pill.
February 11th, 2009 at 5:46 pm
John Piper, his first time ever at celebration in Indiana, Pa, mid 90’s, stood up front and was going on about missions and turned to CJ and said LISTEN TO ME CJ!!!. WE were stunned. It was all about the priority of missions and I guess he had figured out PDI didn’t have any interest in them, at least not at the time.
Not saying Piper was right or wrong and SGM has to be into foreign missions or not. But Piper has the guts to speak up when necessary, so pray he sees the facts and does say something. Do not let yourself think badly of Piper, that would be sin.
February 11th, 2009 at 6:28 pm
RT,
What’s a pixel? If I’m being accused of being one, I’d at least like to know what it is. Then I can tell you if they can have wrinkles, with body parts falling off. Can they wear glasses? I guess because we are on a blog then we get to go to a fake heaven. Hmmmm…at least our love is REAL!
February 11th, 2009 at 6:38 pm
Truely a back door attack on those who post on blogs. The VAST MAJORITY of people who post on blogs and are part of online communities actually have a life outside of the computer. The are not 20 somethings who live at home in mommy’s basement in their boxers blogging away. They are not people who need acme medicine. These are NORMAL people who lead NORMAL lives. Yes, there are some that sit in their mommy’s basement, eat cheetos, watch online porn and blog, but not most folks. That is a stereotype. It has been this way for a LONG time – I know from work experience the demographic of the average blogger and what it was when blogs and online communities started.
There is also a BIG double standard about blogging at SGM – just go look up how many at SGM blog. It’s a HUGE number!!!!!!!!!!!
And I don’t care what anyone says, the online community is very important to the conversation about God. No two theologians have the exact same theology. Disucssion is important. The most important thing is God is the absolute truth. DO you believe that Jesus died for you? Great!!!! Awesome!!! Then you are a believer!!!!!!
February 11th, 2009 at 6:39 pm
DB, I knew when I read RT’s comment about the Matrix, you were CERTAIN to chime in! haha
5yrs,
Unfortunately, Piper gets lumped into “the bad guys group” and is often guilty by association. I won’t comment on much of it, as I don’t personally care or benefit from his teachings or hyper-focus. But I suppose we all hyper-focus to some degree, on what gives us “passion” and Piper’s is clearly not the same as CJ’s. But they agree on other points.
The thing is, at what point does someone like Piper, with affiliation and endorsement by a brother such as CJ, say “OK, that’s far enough – you’ve crossed the line there.” ?
It’s difficult to determine these things – and when and how do you speak up about them. Perhaps with all the negative press about SGM, and you can bet Piper knows as well as others, that they will withdraw their degree of fellowship as more is revealed. It’s one thing to say you don’t agree with a paritcular doctrine or teaching, but when that doctrine or teaching is resulting in wide-spread abuse of brothers and sisters, I think the time has come to speak up against it.
Piper would be one to do so. Dever seems also blind to the shepherding (based on his website papers on church discipline and some of his views on polity), albeit a “softer” approach, he agrees with enough that he likely won’t rock the boat. Mohler I have hopes for, and of course I’m sure Johnny Mac will link it somehow to the charismatic beliefs – haha. Since shepherding manifests differently in reformed and charismatic circles, certain other teachings run alongside them, then it would be hard to say who would pick up on what..since SGM is constantly changing and redefining, they are hard to pin down..
some smart cookies over at the Puritan Board not long ago who were discussing whether or not SGM was truly reformed picked up on that constant change very quickly, and pretty much dismissed SGM as orthodox, reformed and sound. (much to the disagreement of one lone SGMer who kept going back to his paster for input to put in the board to defend their beloved SGM, it was sad)
February 11th, 2009 at 6:43 pm
Canary, why don’t we provide the definition to a pixel since SGM so often does it for us?
Pixel – person who has been freed from spiritual abuse and oppression resulting in boldness, clarity and passion for the complete gospel of Jesus Christ. Can often be found ministering in the real world, getting their hands dirty, having their hearts tugged and torn, crying with others, praying for others and reading their Bibles. Many utilize the wonderful tool of the internet to spread the Good News of the gospel to captives of the world and captives of religion.
or something like that
February 11th, 2009 at 7:00 pm
Juli,
PERFECT definition!
February 11th, 2009 at 10:19 pm
Juli said: “Many utilize the wonderful tool of the internet to spread the Good News of the gospel to captives of the world and captives of religion.”
I would add ministering healing to those wounded by abusive religious systems and their leaders who have been blinded to the dangers by the simple fact that these systems tend to run like well-honed machines. Both wounded soldiers and blinded pastors are on my prayer list!
But for those who really don’t know what a pixel is, it’s what internet photos and websites are made of, right? Hundreds to thousands of little pixels? Sort of like the body of Christ has many members…
February 12th, 2009 at 12:09 pm
Jim, you said,
We can obviously expect a full-backdoor (they aren’t interested in full frontal) assault from SGM pastors, as the “apostles” are now giving directives on how to deal with us.
I’ll share more later-back to real life…
Will you be sharing more about this soon?
February 12th, 2009 at 12:39 pm
Bree-
Funny you should ask, as I’m writing right now, during lunch. I’ll post today or tomorrow.
In the meantime-trudge through the polity posts, my friends.
February 12th, 2009 at 1:54 pm
Well, I think it is kinda neat that they aren’t ignoring us, anymore. Even if we are getting negative press from the pulpit (Pimples? PIMPLES?!). If we could just have a reasonable debate with one of the Big Guys, right here in public, it would be amazing and, perhaps bring us all together. Okay, maybe not, but at least we could reason with each other. Are they afraid of the written word? Of the public? Of being insulted? I promise, we won’t call them pale and pimply-faced.
I would love it if Brent or Joshua, someone with clout, would come here and talk with us. Whoops, Brent doesn’t have as much clout, now. However, I think he would speak fairly with us. We were in his church for enough years for me to know that he is an honorable man (I’m not ignoring the fact that he did do some of us wrong by his actions). He sincerely believes what he believes. We sincerely believe that SGM polity is sincerely off by megatude degrees. So, why can’t Brent, or someone like him, come here and talk with us? (By the way Brent, if you are reading this – nothin’ but love for you!).
Now, to something encouraging. My husband has believed this for years. PDI/SGM is like a big seed bag being carried by a man. There is a hole in the bag, and seed is dropping on the ground as the man walks. He doesn’t realize it, but this seed is falling to the ground and sprouting. Many of us who had to leave SGM are that seed. We have taken the good from them, and are throwing out the bad (by reprocessing what we were taught, and only keeping the truthful parts). So, hopefully, the trees that are being planted unknowingly by this organization will bear good fruit. You know how God loves good fruit. That reminds me – hey Stein, where are you?
February 12th, 2009 at 1:58 pm
I must add, I am not “baiting” Stein. I’d really like to have our fruit inspector discussion. It is important for us to understand how judging a tree by its fruit is so critical in our walk with the Lord. It can keep us from following some very bad stuff.
February 12th, 2009 at 5:51 pm
Canary, love the image of the seeds dropping – being the visual learner that I am!
I see the good fruit that has been redeemed from my own life in SGM – I was bearing bad fruit though, I got a SERIOUS whack job with the Lord’s hacksaw that he uses, all the while He’s saying – “I know, I know, this hurts, just hang in there!”
Then he began pruning my heart and life, and I am just now beginning to see the beginnings of new fruit and “life” in my life – it is rather exciting! I was so dead, wilty, and disease ridden for so long, not to mention infested with fungus, mold and God knows what else – oh yeah, yeast/leaven perhaps? haha
Ok, so you and Gracie and Carole know I’ve been thinking of gardening lately, hence the analogy above that has gone amuck..is that how you spell amuck? heehee what a fun word. I like running amock in God’s grace, it is rather joyous!
February 12th, 2009 at 6:00 pm
Canary,
The way a bird usually spreads seed around is to, well, drop it out of its beak or…..well……the business end. Sometimes, I get surprises in my garden and we cll them, “volunteers.”
Sorry, Stein, I couldn’t resist the mental image of you inspecting Canary’s handiwork.
February 12th, 2009 at 6:28 pm
DB,
Sorry, Stein, I couldn’t resist the mental image of you inspecting Canary’s handiwork
HA HA HA HA HA HA!!! You do mean, inspecting my fruit, right?
February 12th, 2009 at 6:52 pm
now that is a visual..we digress..
Inspecting fruit is obviously Biblical – but it has been lumped into the category of being critical, just like speaking the truth gets lumped in with gossip and slander.
so I guess the question to ask is – what does the Bible say is the difference between fruit inspecting and having a critical spirit? The flip side to discernment, I have always said, is a critical spirit. I discern things all the time..yet when and how does one cross the line? What keeps us FROM crossing the line? And when we get accused of the sinful motives, how can we know our consciences are clear before the Lord?
I have my thoughts, just wondering what you guys thought about it..
February 12th, 2009 at 6:58 pm
Well, Brent was the “apostle” over several churches, with Gene Emerson’s church being one of them. Now, Gene the “apostle” is over Brent. I would love to know how that really came down. In SGland, the spin is that Brent wanted to spend more time with his family–Isn’t that what the elites in sports always say when they are stepping down?
February 12th, 2009 at 8:07 pm
Gratefully – it’s also the excuse when high level executives in a company leave – “to speand time with their family, since they have worked so hard and haven;t seen them too much”, when really it’s a firing.
February 12th, 2009 at 8:45 pm
Yes, and it’s a shame that the “church” uses the same tactics and spin that the secular world does. That should tell us something. :-)
May 17th, 2009 at 5:10 pm
Just a question. Spent about a year in a SG . Jim, when you say that their polity is the reason for their truncated gospel, what do you mean by truncated gospel.
May 17th, 2009 at 5:54 pm
Hi Frank-from the “about” page-
Like SGM, I believe that Paul is referring to the current state of the believer in Romans 7, but feel that this has been over emphasized in SGM, leading to a type of navel gazing. The Christian’s sin can also be used as a weapon. I find this manipulative. I’d love to see SGM focus on the believer’s identity in Christ for a year or two, to bring balance to their over-emphasis on the power of indwelling sin. I also believe that an empty cross without an empty tomb is a truncated Gospel.
I think the under-emphasis on our Risen Lord, along with our identity in Him would be the truncation. Too much looking behind-not enough looking at the right now.
As believers, shouldn’t we do both?
May 17th, 2009 at 6:58 pm
Thanks Jim for the reply. I see what you’re saying and I would agree. Yes, they seem to emphasize the forgiveness of sins that the empty cross brings. But they seem to neglect the power of a holy life that the empty tomb brings. They do dwell alot on indwelling sin as if it were an excuse. I noticed that the books from the local SGM that I’ve looked at have this heavy bent on indwelling sin.
May 17th, 2009 at 9:03 pm
Frank, the emphasis is NOT on forgiveness of sin and an empty cross. The emphasis is on sin – how sinful we are. It is really a doctrine based on Jesus still on the Cross suffering.
May 18th, 2009 at 7:49 am
Hi Everyone,
This is completely off topic, but since everybody knows and loves Sopwith, I’m sure you won’t mind…
Please pray for Sopy just now. Poor guy! Pray that he gets better, really quick, and that he can get some good rest.
Thank-you!
God bless,
Bree