I should have included the Gilbert AZ SGC in my last post. Comments about the recent Gilbert weirdness started in another thread, and I want to ensure that the conversation doesn’t get lost in the mix.
The conversation starts here, with an excellent overall summary here.
My opinion is that this is an example of your newandimprovedmorehumblethanever pastor.
Let’s hope that I’m wrong.
Be Bold posted the summary comment, posted below-
I’d like to clear up a couple of additional things regarding the Gilbert situation. I have listened to Rich’s message, and while I have many opinions, I will try hard to stick to what I believe is factual.
Yes, the letter that went out was from a “high profile” couple, although they would likely not be comfortable with that term. They are a humble couple, leaders in the homeschool community, and wise in the Word. The letter went out just a few days prior to the message. I had a feeling the letter would be addressed in some way during the Sunday meeting, because there was damage control to be done. As I listened to the message two things were glaringly obvious to me. 1. Rich was taking great strides to combat some of the “issues” that have been recently circulating throughout the church and on the blogs and it was extremely evident to me that his “confession” was carefully crafted. 2. It was also evident to me that his “confession” was spoken in a way that if my eyes were not already opened to this, I would have been one of the first ones to stand and applaud him in the end. I was saddened by this because I feel that there are many within the Gilbert congregation who were beginning to question some things and I knew that after his “message” Sunday, there was strong potential for them to be sucked right back in.
The members that he publicly commended for supporting a parachurch organization (Joni and Friends) have been supporting that organization for years and years and have been members of the Gilbert church from the earliest stages. They have never been publicly commended for there involvement with Joni and Friends ever before Sunday. It was as if their names were pulled out of the community outreach file to be held up as the shining example of “look at how we as a church support this kind of thing”. There are only a couple of other families within the church that are also heavily involved in parachurch organizations, and I can tell you with certainty, that they are not “hailed” for it and any way.
The man who was publicly apologized to by Rich is a Care Group Leader. I have no strongly formulated opinions on whether his financial contributions to the church had anything at all to do with him being chosen as the recipient of the apology, but regardless, he is one of the wealthiest men in the church. Possibly the wealthiest. I mean him no disrespect at all by sharing that, because from my understanding he is also a man worthy of great respect and honor. I assume (and I know I said I would try to stick to the facts) that the things he brought to Rich’s attention were legitimate and sincere appeals regarding Rich’s sin. I have no trouble believing that he was sincerely owed an apology from Rich, however I am not sure that a public forum was the best place for it.
Then there is also the confusing issue of, “Who really does lead the Gilbert church?” Yes, Rich is the senior pastor. However, the church is definitely “lead” by Glynn Mackenzie. I would be quite surprised if anyone within the Gilbert church would argue with that. Glynn is the pastor who will be leaving to go save the Denver church from self-destruction. I pray for the Denver church, they can’t possibly conceive of what is to come.
There has been a proverbial verbal and emotional slaughtering of many families within the Gilbert church, and all at the hands of pastors other than Rich. He is one of the last ones (here I go being opinionated again) who should have been standing up there apologizing that Sunday.
It was mentioned in one of the earlier posts that Rich seemed to be in Steve Shank’s good favor. That would be true. Rich really is a good guy. He’s a very likable guy and I do believe, fully, that he has been sucked into the system. He is a very young pastor, 35 years old. He’s been the senior pastor there, I believe since he was 29. He came in under tremendous accolades, which ironically SGM is so infamous for. They puff you up to HUGE proportions, but then they knock you down when you show the least bit of pride. When he arrived on the scene after working under Craig Cabaniss for a while, his own father, Trey Richardson, stepped down from his role as the “temporary” senior pastor in order for Rich to step up to the “calling that God has clearly placed on his life”. I tell you all of this only so you have an idea of the age of this pastor. His age was not a negative in his pastoring or preaching at all, however, I believe it to have been a major influence on how easily he has been “lead” by the other, older pastors in the Gilbert church. There are two particularly controlling pastors within the Gilbert church, one being Glynn and the other Trey, and both of them absolutely carry more influence over the “culture” of the church than does Rich. Their pastoring styles are vastly different, Glynn being overtly controlling, and somehow respected for it. Trey being subtley controlling and the one who people tend to flee to if they are weary of Glynn.
There was also an earlier comment referencing that there have been two other families who have recently left prior to the high-profile couple leaving. There have actually been several other families who have left, possibly a little more under the radar, over the past year or so. However, these two particular families did indeed leave for the same reasons. I know both families and they are steadfast in their love for the Lord, but their departures did not cause the uprising that the other family’s departure did, I believe for several reasons. One, their letters were sent to fewer people. Two, their families were very, very close which seems to have led to speculation that one family may have influenced the other, although I know them both and that is absolutely not the case. Three, both families had been “pulling away” for quite a while as their eyes have been slowly opening for a long time, but was being seen by most as sin on their parts for lack of involvement. And four, they were easier to dismiss as leaving for “wrong” or “sinful” reasons than the other family who was very well respected, and rightfully so, they are also a wonderful family. All three families have already received a fair amount of “correction” from well meaning friends and for all three families the shunning process has begun.
The message Rich gave was damage control. The high-profile couple’s letter going out to such a large group dictated the necessity of a public “hearing” of sorts. There was no other option than for the pastoral staff to use the public forum of the Sunday meeting to address what they saw as the most immediately divisive and controversial issues brought up in “The Letter”.
I apologize for the length of this post. There is much more to say, but I am realizing how lengthy this has become.
Sovereign Grace Gilbert
Does a fish in the ocean know that it is wet?
I have listened several times to Brother Rich’s confession of pride and self sufficiency. Here at the Abbey we all thought it very heartfelt. Fascinating that within SGM all behavior is reduced to these two sins. This reductionism can sometimes gets in the way of real change.
In one place Rich confessed that “through my leadership I have made a culture where there is a big distinction between the pastor and the people.” I’m not convinced that he made this culture. Perhaps more accurately it could be said he merely acted on what he inherited. You see, it is part of the very air that is breathed within SGM churches. So immersed are these young men in the SGM ethos, much goes by unquestioned like the fish in the sea. This controlling model dating back to PDI days and the Shepherding Movement is more caught than taught. Such is the conundrum of deception.
Please pray for this promising young man and his church.
And to all the SGM Refuge sojourners, let’s unravel this mystery and find Truth.
Brother Cadfael
Brother Cadfael,
Welcome to the Refuge, and thank you for your thoughts and desire to purse truth – that is what we all want…
We’re praying for your church there, and are here for the many questions that will arise. Please let us know how we can pray, and thank you for reminding us all that these young men are indeed at the mercy of these controlling older pastors and apostles…may they rise up, see the truth, and may God fulfill the calling HE placed on their lives in the way HE chooses, not the apostles..
I am burdened for these young men everywhere. It is sad to see them distracted from God’s best and submitting to the likes of Shank.
Welcome Brother C!
You see, it is part of the very air that is breathed within SGM churches.
Exactly.
I am beginning to get a bit aggravated by all this pastor shuffling. Like Brother C (Welcome!) I am convinced that these guys are not coming up with their own polity (and all the other stuff) for their local churches. It all flows down from the top dudes and the carefully controlled and guarded pastors’ college. So when errors and problems arise in the local church, where the rubber meets the road, due to the ERRANT CHURCH POLITY, why is it that the local pastors get thrown under the bus by their mentors and apostles? Bad, bad form.
Gracie, bad form is right. I asked elsewhere, wonder what the displaced pastor from Aurora is thinking about things? He was moved to the Westminster church, and then that Sr pastor, David B, is steps down suddenly. You’d think he would be among the first to ask the same question as jim: what’s going on out here in Colorado? Then the cancelled church plant in Colo Springs..
Of course people in Fairfax and Chesapeake are asking: what’s going on on the East coast?
And the people in Phoenix and San Diego are probably asking: what’s going on on the West coast?
I’m in the South – and judging from the names being thrown in the mix, and who’s behind the scenes, I predict (not prophecy, just predict!) that things will get mixed up down here really soon as well..just wait.
Although I hadn’t thought everything thru exactly like that, Be Bold hit it. It totally seemed like damage control. And sadly, it appears to be working. I hope people ask questions and clarify for themselves what the particulars of the confession meant and what specific changes will take place. For instance, I think the pastors definition of what a Bible study is and who can lead one vastly differs from how most people in the church (or any other church) would define it.
As for the control and manipulation, yup, it’s subtle, very subtle. That is what led me to search for people like you all over a year ago. I felt controlled and depressed (the gospel shouldn’t be depressing, right?) When I found nothing, I assumed it was all in my head - just a problem with me.
Watching Closely,
Why don’t you ask these questions instead of speculating?
If you have all these questions in your head why not ether go face to face and ask or use e-mail to ask these questions.
You hoping for someone else to do this for you.
“I hope people ask questions and clarify for themselves what the particulars of the confession meant and what specific changes will take place”.
Your Question:
“For instance, I think the pastors definition of what a Bible study is and who can lead one vastly differs from how most people in the church (or any other church) would define it”.
You ever think that not asking might be a problem?
Ask…
Just ask.
Matthew,
Do me a favor-don’t pretend for a second that any member of the congregation can relate to Rich or Trey in the same way that you do.
Know what I mean?
Since you certainly have a completely unbiased opinion, do you think the content of Rich’s message had nothing to do with the couple who left while he was preparing the message?
Watching closely,
What you describe is very normal, thinking you are imagining things, feeling certain things and not having them validated for a long time..it really messes with our heads and hearts, doesn’t it? But rest assured, you are not alone. Many of us on this site have fetl what you have, and we will all walk through it. Just grab hold, journey on this together with us..the Lord goes before us, and is our rear guard..
Matthew – haven’t read any posts by you that I can remember, but welcome to the Refuge, if you posted before (Jim seems to obviously know you) I missed it, sorry.
Who exactly are you proposing we ask the questions that we have/had? And why would you assume we didn’t?
For the record, and since you apparently have not read any of the personal stories available on the site here – hundreds of people who have left SGM and PDI over the years verbally asked questions, and it got them nowhere. In fact, among those who did ask questions of their pastors and leaders the various responses included being: kicked out of the church or asked to leave, shunned, rebuked, ignored, belittled, manipulated more, condemned and accused of being in sin, accused of slander, gossip, accused of being deceived, accused of lacking integrity, etc etc etc
So it isn’t that we didn’t ask. The problem is NOT as you suggest, not asking questions – because questions were asked.
The problem was that the questions asked happened to hit nerves, rocked idols, and left leadership feeling like they lacked control over those asking, which they did. And that was a GOOD thing.
So your advice, while practical, has been followed already by many people. That’s why we are here. And the responses we got when we asked questions is why we left. They aren’t normal responses, reactions, and certainly not in keeping with the Spirit.
Ok, I found where Matthew Geesling came onto the blog, I had missed it, because his attacks, er, comments, were just more of the same..you’d think after reading along for three months he’d come up with something original other than the standard: you guys are gossipping, and how is this furthering the gospel?
But, he DID use his real name, BRAVO! You even gave your location! You related to Deborah by chance? I saw she was one of only a FEW who posted on your church blog there…I guess this blog gets more attention than the Gilbert one does. Big surprise.
Jim you mentioned elsewhere how these guys like to go after us ladies and seem to not want to debate with you after a point- I think I finally see what you mean. There is a pattern here, and I am curious about that as well. What do you make of it?
If they think the women on this blog are like many of the women they are accustomed to in their SGM churches, boy, are they in for a shock. I dare say we are all unsubmissive wicked women in their books..but I could not dream of better and more godly examples of TRUE Biblical womanhood than Carole, Canary, Gracie, Ellie, Butterfly, Freedom Fighter and others..I’ve prayed to have sisters in the Lord like you for a LONG time ladies!
Another bit of information that Mr Geesling forgot to mention is that he is related:
He is the SENIOR pastor’s UNCLE
The “UNDER” pastor’s BROTHER-IN-LAW
His SISTER is married to Trey Richardson.
Perhaps he forgot to mention this or perhaps I missed it somewhere, but I did want to add this little tidbit of missing data.
Is it ever going to get fun?
Whoops…
I knew if Matthew kept talking, someone would “out” him.
The “church” doesn’t need more herdsmen; the “church” needs more shepherds, more kind, gentle, compassionate, life-giving men and women filled with HIM who is life, living HIMSELF out through them. As for me, I am tired of the gifted ones, the ones who sound good but too often end up living to be served rather than serving. I am convinced that these men start out right, but buy into the lie that they are really a “covering” over the sheep, that they are the man between God and the rest of us, that God’s purposes for the laity flows through them.
Oh and by the way, a friend of mine once asked the Sr. pastor (now “apostle”) and left the meeting wondering why he had CJ’s book on humility clenched in his sweaty little fingers, feeling like this was all his fault. My friend never asked again and no longer attends–imagine that?
Matthew, you are in the perfect position to ask our questions for us. I’m so glad you’re here! I no longer attend a SG church. I haven’t set foot in one since my daughter passed out and hit her head at Crossway. (Long story — and a very funny one since we were trying to visit incognito to see if things had changed or not. Try and remain incognito after your teenager passes out and slams into the counter in her classroom! LOL! And all because she didn’t want her sister to win the breathholding contest they were having to exemplify “in Him we live and move and have our being.)
Ahem… Back to Matthew…
Please bring the abuse of authority and heavy-handedness and unteachableness of the pastors and apostles to their attention for us. I would consider it a personal favor if you would. We can’t seem to get any clear information on these subjects. The rhetoric on their websites sounds very intrusive when compared to other churches. We’re worried that SG churches have become so cultlike that those who are members aren’t able to see it for themselves. We are worried that we need to perform interventions on behalf of our friends. This is a serious thing to us. If you have access to anyone who can bring us answers or offer explanations for the lack of accountability that is taking place, please consider yourself authorized by me to do this footwork and report back. If you’re uncomfortable reporting here, jot me an email at creativepowerhouse@gmail.com .
Thanks!
Megan
Megan! That is a great idea!! The Lord could use inside people like Matthew as a “go between”! That is an exciting thing to think about!
Honestly, after Jonathan’s post on the other thread, maybe the Lord WILL use some of the braver ones who arne’t so arrogant and steeped in idolatry to actually BE peacemakers…now who wouldhave thought that would be possible?
Although I doubt Matthew is such a person. Typically, as we have seen on these blogs for over a year now, those who come on spittin’ venom either keep spittin or disappear. Those who appear like Jonathan did, in humility and love, often can really bless us here and offer us hope, and I for one am grateful for them.
Now, I’d LOVE to see an actual SGM pastor get on this site and help us work through some of the questions we have, because I agree – there is a limit to how effective this conversation can be if we DON’T hear the other side. Unfortunately for SGM< their “side” often presents in the form of spitting venom, which is something they should be ashamed of and no wonder they don’t want their “sheep” on the blogs. It makes them look bad, to be honest.
So why don’t they come on themselves? What are they afriad of? Perhaps I should have asked that – where are you Steve Shank? CJ? Joshua Harris? Dave Harvey? Brent D? Jeff Purswell? and so many others?? Your silence truly is not helping the situation..have you figured that out yet?
We aren’t going away. And we aren’t shutting up.
I would be shocked if even one of them posted and not be anonymous – so since we don’t have that benefit, we have to rely on the sheep to speak for them? To defend them? That doesn’t seem right. Of course these sheep will sing their praises. What I’d like to see is some honest dialogue about repentance. I think this blog and the stories on it have gotten at least the majority of sheep (excluding those steeped in idolatry) at least saying – yes, Houston, we have a problem. (or more than one actually!)
So these guys, like Jonathan, are seeing some of the things we do and agree – and yet they are able and willing to remain in the churches…so will God use them to bring about change? We can only wait and see. Honestly, I think if the Jonathans of the SGM churches nationwide actually were used of the Lord it would be for the deliverance of His sheep, and not the false shepherds.
Jonathan, I’m sorry to keep using you as an example I hope it doesn’t put you in an awkward situation- but you truly are the first person in a LONG time on these blogs that really encourages me that perhaps God will raise up people IN the churches still to speak out for those who are hurting and in bondage. That is my prayer anyway. I guess I’m not so much concerned about bringing peace between shepherds and sheep at this point, but rescuing the hurting sheep and getting them the care they need by the Shepherd of their Souls(and I’m not talking about their pastors of course!). Maybe eventually peace can be made between the two, but only after repentance, in some cases, on BOTH parts..
Megan, love the idea. Love it! I’m praying..
Regardless of Brother Matthew’s relationship with leadership, he asked a straight forward question. Why shouldn’t Sister Watching Closely ask questions of the SGC Gilbert clergy? You would think that if you want a straight answer, go to the source. However, understanding SGM ethos, reading the blog threads, and examining my notes from interviews of current and former members of this parish does give cause to pause. I know all we brothers at the Abbey believe there is a good chance Sister Watching Closely already has asked questions. And this begs the question:
Is SGM perceived to be a safe place to ask questions?
I have seen that the responses from the clergy can take many forms, including:
· An obscured response through weak passive voice. Passive voice is grammatically unclear: ”We would have you do …”. “The Rule was broken.” Does this mean that someone broke the rule? Or that the rule was in a broken (dysfunctional) state?
· An obscured response through sovereign grace-isms. For instance, “Only those who have sound doctrine can teach.” Or, “You need to make sure this is Cross centered.” What do these terms mean for SGM? The SGM diocese has a unique vocabulary where familiar words and phrases mean something quite different from mainstream Christianity. Brother Oswin is building a lexicon of SGMisms to aid those who wish to learn SGM as a second language. Perhaps Brother Jim would let us have a thread of just discussing terminology.
· Questioners who are marked and then marginalized from future ministry opportunities.
· Questioners are asked to examine their own heart for sin. The clear message is that asking questions is naughty and forbidden.
· One can get conflicting opinions from the individual clergy at a local parish. For instance one pastor says no, while the next one says yes. It puts the parishioner into a double bind. Perhaps this is what Rich was alluding to in his confession.
Perhaps the clergy is not even aware that this is what is happening. Perhaps they do not know that many see them this way. Perhaps they do not understand the water they are in. (see comment 2/6/09: 2:46 PM)
Sister Freedom Fighter gave a wonderful idea: Perhaps Brother Matthew is in a position to be able to help. “For such a time as this.” We are grateful that he has ventured onto this forum – even using his real name. Will he intercede for us with the clergy?
Please pray for this promising young man, Rich, and his church.
Brother Cadfael
Matthew – I must respond to your comment toward Watching Closely. You have implored her to “ask, just ask”. Matthew, I’d like you to carefully consider a couple of things.
First, suppose for a moment that you, being Rich’s Uncle, might begin to disagree with some of the culture that you were observing in the church. Would you be so bold as to take it to Rich? Trey? How about Glynn? I understand your unique position, and it is quite possible that you enjoy a much greater degree of fearlessness than the rest of the congregation due to your relationship with the leadership, but is there any part of you that would be concerned at all about what it might mean for YOU and your family to disagree with the leadership? I ask because, ironically, I don’t suspect that you do. I think that you probably can not conceive of having a concern about what disagreeing would mean for you or your family, because you probably, quite literally, have nothing to fear. You are in. You are safe. You are Matthew Geesling, brother-in-law to Trey and Uncle to Rich, therefore you are likely somewhat immune. For the rest of us, that is simply not the case. Your perspective is far removed from ours. You have freedoms that the rest of us do not have.
Secondly, would you consider responding to any of my comments from the above post? I find it curious that you had nothing to say regarding anything that I commented on regarding Rich’s confession. Have you any thoughts on it? Positive or negative?
And thirdly, if I could shout it from the highest mountain to proclaim the truth of what I am about to say, I would. There is a manipulative and deliberately executed process of ousting people within the church (and I’m talking about your beloved local Gilbert church here) who do not fully and completely conform to the “culture” that leadership has worked very hard to propagate. This ousting begins in the offices upstairs, trickles down to the care group leaders during the care group leaders care groups (as overt gossip misrepresented as caring for souls), and then is subtly carried out by church members who are manipulatively coerced (unbeknownst to themselves, by their caregroup leaders) to bear the fruit of the seeds that are planted upstairs. There are cowards working upstairs Matthew. I wish that no member of your family were a part of it, but sadly, they are. They are cowards who fear anyone who might disagree, who might not conform in totality, and who might cause others to think differently as well. I’m not talking about doctrinal issues, Biblical objectiveness, or even moral issues. I’m talking about SGM “cultural” issues. If you don’t see it Matthew, there is nothing that I can say to get you to see it. But, if you’re blind and can’t see the sky, it certainly does not mean that it is not there. Matthew, you are perhaps in a more unfortunate situation than the rest of us. For you, this is very, very personal. For the rest of us, it’s just painful.
Respectfully,
Be Bold
Jim,
You asked,
Since you certainly have a completely unbiased opinion, do you think the content of Rich’s message had nothing to do with the couple who left while he was preparing the message?
Some aspects where included but it did not prompt the message it self.
By the way “Whoops…” I think I outed my self by using my real name.
Julie,
You stated,
“those who come on spittin’ venom either keep spittin or disappear.”
You assume alot of me.
Gratefully Disillusioned from SGM
You assume alot too.
I know your intent is to suck me in to a daily dialog with insults and zingers back and forth only for you to say “yep he drank the kool aid see how he is.”
Well I do not come to this site daily or even weekly.
Be Bold,
Sounds like you somewhat know me.
But if you really knew me you would know that no matter who was in leadership if I had a question I would ask it. That’s me. I have no more freedoms, the real word should be “access” than anyone else.
You said fear, fear of what?
What do you have to fear?
Matthew – You continue to ignore the questions that I have asked. I don’t doubt that you would ask the questions, that was the whole point of my first paragraph. Your perspective is completely null around here because you ARE in a position to ask without fear. You asked what I had to fear. That’s a very literal question, and I did not mean for my original question to be taken so literally. I do not fear the leadership of SG church of Gilbert. What I fear, as well as what I believe most people who have reason to question the leadership, is everything that I described in my third point. I’m sorry that you are having such a difficult time understanding my perspective. Please try to understand though, for those of us who do fear all that I described – it is VERY real, and it is life changing for those who are bold enough to confront that fear. You see, life as we know it, simply ceases to exist once we cross that line with leadership. You haven’t experienced that, you can’t possibly know what it’s like to walk it.
I honestly don’t mean any ill will toward you Matthew. You do seem like a decent guy. I just wish that you had been a little more forthright about who you were to the readers of this blog. And, to imply that you “outed” yourself by using your real name is rather insulting to the many readers of this blog who are not from Gilbert and do not have the insight as to your relationship with both Rich and Trey.
So, to repeat myself, would you care to address any of the points I made in my initial post? I would like to know your perspective specifically on the following as it relates to the Gilbert church:
1. Do you believe that there is a genuine support of members being involved in parachurch organizations OR in Bible study outside of SG?
2. Have you ever known any members to be recognized in a positive way for their involvement in a parachurch organization prior to last Sunday’s message?
3. Do you HONESTLY believe that “The Letter” did not prompt Rich’s message on Sunday? and if you do not – are you saying that you believe his “confession” message was already in the works prior to receiving “The Letter”?
and lastly
4. Who do you believe to be the one who most directs the “culture” of SGC of Gilbert? Rich? Trey? Glynn?
I do believe, as you stated, that if you had a question of leadership that you would ask it. I have no doubt. However, I stand by what I said in my prior comment. Your perspective is almost invalid due to your relationships, but I’d like to hear your perspective regardless.
Brother Cadfael,
Be Bold,
Welcome to The Refuge! I hope you continue to bless us with your thoughts and your views. You are a very welcome addition here.
Matthew,
I agree with you here-
You said fear, fear of what?
What do you have to fear?
What, or better yet, who we have to fear is man. This is a sinful fear. In relating to men, I walk a fine line here, as I don’t want to heap condemnation on my brethren, yet I’m completely sickened by SGM’s pansy factory.
The fear of God has become a watered-down, understated concept in our day.
Jim,
I try here to be very careful what I write.
Not from fear of what or your readers think or even what readers from SG Gilbert think, but I fear God in this. I must represent him even among other believers.
Did you catch my response to your question about the message?
Be Bold,
Give me a call, you know my #.
Let’s have a cup of coffee.
Be bold enough to call me.
Matthew
Matthew,
I’m not really clear if you or someone else were asking what, if anything, some of us here have to fear. If you were not asking that, then please feel free to skip this post. But in case you were wondering some of the whys, there have been some of us who have lost our jobs because we have spoken up regarding the wrongs done to others. Some of us have had our children shunned by their friends and have had to endure nights of sitting up with them as they cried and grieved. Some of us have lost our own friends. Some of us have been physically abused by people who could identify us on here if we revealed our names. Some of us are trying to protect the identities of others and if we revealed our own names, those identities of others would be blown. Some of us have had to flee ex-SGMers, moving across the ocean to do so. Some of us had all sorts of lies told about us and frankly, just don’t want to be subject to that at the moment.
I hope you, or whoever asked that question can put themselves in our shoes and see why for many of us, the decision to not share our names was an easy one or at least, one we have chosen to make.
Stunned
Matthew,
Could I give you a call?
jim@sgmrefuge.com
Matthew,
Instead of stating that I “assume a lot too,” it would be helpful to be a little more specific, so I can properly respond to you.
You write, “I know your intent is to suck me in to a daily dialog with insults and zingers back and forth only for you to say “yep he drank the kool aid see how he is.” Now that is some major assuming, don’t ya know?
This site isn’t about insults and zingers; it’s about a community of believers who, for the most part, have been in the cross hairs of SGM leadership or have walked along side of dear brothers and sister whose lives have been torn apart by the authoritative, spiritually-abusive, leadership style of some who happen to be “in charge!”
So, please feel welcomed, but don’t ASSUME that anyone will have a bad day just because you choose not to post. None of us are that important here! This is a place of clarity and healing for those of us who thought that we were the problem and alone, only to discover that just maybe what we experienced is more pervasive than we thought.
Gratefully-
Well said.
Hi,
First time to comment here, I’ve been reading for a while and just wanted to introduce myself.
As someone who has recently joined a Sovereign Grace Church, I am a little alarmed at a lot of the things mentioned on here. My family hasn’t noticed anything weird going on really, but I certainly want to make sure that we are, in fact, in a healthy church and not in a place that encourages any abuse.
Anyway, I don’t know if I’ll comment on here much or anything, but just wanted to let you know I am reading some of these posts to decide if I have made a mistake in choosing this church.
Hi Tim,
Welcome!
Gratefully,
You said, ” This is a place of clarity and healing for those of us who thought that we were the problem and alone, only to discover that just maybe what we experienced is more pervasive than we thought.”
Maybe? Methinks, from what we are seeing being revealed in SGM churches all across the nation, that there is no maybe to it… it seems to be alive and well and pervasive in SGM-land… kinda like a trademark of a franchise.
I’m just sayin’…
Tim,
Welcome!! You are very wise to ask. Tell us more of your journey, regarding how long you have been a believer, your “church” background, how long you have been attending this SG “church.” You said you joined your particular SG “church?” If you haven’t signed the “membership covenant,” (I think it is called that) DON’T.
Hope to hear more from you.
Carole,
Just trying to be nice here
Gratefully,
Matthew-
Why can’t you answer BE Bold’s questions ? They are straight forward enough-I’d be interested in your take….
Hi Tim,
What I am about to say, I say in all seriousness and with the fear of God. Run, don’t walk to the nearest exit at your SGC! My family was a member of SGC for 10+ years and in many ways thought it was and had to be the best church in the world. Truth is, that it is all a facade! I say this from firsthand experience. We were told over and over that it is the best church, that the pastors are the best and that the doctrine is sound. We believed this to be so but it is just not. There truly is a distortion of authority and the true Gospel is not being preached and not being lived out. Their doctrine is one that leads to legalism and bondage. If it is not a cult then it is very close for there are many cultish behaviors among the leadership as well as the membership. There certainly are groups in these churches who have been treated very well, but people are not all treated the same. Sadly, through the years, many have been abused and this is just one of the issues. The way many of the SG churches handle money is irresponsible at best.
You may not see any of this right now because of what has been going on in these last few months in SGM. The Lord has been exposing darkness in the movement and the leadership is doing a great deal of whitewashing and is on their best behavior. I hear that they have even been different in the pulpit. For years the focus has been on our sinfulness but recently, the focus has changed. That is a good thing but the question is, why did they change? Is it because so many are exposing their false teaching or is it because the Holy Spirit has moved on their hearts? We would hope for the later but it is suspect because so many have exposed their erroneous doctrines in these last months.
Because there are many good churches, please don’t settle for less than God’s best. God wants us all to walk in the fullness of the Gospel and the victory that is ours through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Because of the polity/government and false doctrine of SGM, there are no assurances that abuse will not continue and that genuine change will occur.
Tim-
I second that emotion- you can clik here if you want to read my experiences with SG
http://www.sgmsurvivors.com/?p=73
peace
Tim
Realize that some of the uglier sides of SGM seem to come out when a person disagrees. That is, you will be fine till if/when you reach the point where you start to question things. A number of members have reported how SGM leadership seems to be threatened by someone that questions.
The leaders will say they are approachable and open to correction. What many report is that when one does try and approach a leader, the leader “turns the tables” on the member.
Also, people have questioned SGM emphasis on the Christ being put on the cross at the expense of not emphasizing Christ rising from the dead. Some say that it is almost like a Catholic Church where they have Christ still up on the cross.
Realize the membership agreement that I have seen only serves to legally protect SGM from the possiblity of members suing them. It really does nothing for individual members.
I would also say that there is some variance between SGM Churches. Things may be much worse in some churches than others. Still realize that they are all under C.J. Mahaney (some call him the “pope” of the group) and thus things can only be so much different.
Realize also that the more you get involved with the group and lose more and more outside friendships, the harder it is to leave. This is especially true if you have kids and all of their friends are there.
It is good you are keeping your eyes open.
Tim,
I echo Just Say No – To KoolAid’s thoughts, RUN do not walk, run to the nearest exit. I also highly recommend that you read the story’s on this blog and sgmsurviors dot com. That will give you a pretty good idea of what is happening at sgm churchs – you will see it’s not just one church (i.e. which the ches church used to be referred to as the “aushwitz” of pdi when shank was sr pastor)
Matthew, your original comments on the blog prompted my comment about spitting venom – your comments were: (I’ve bolded the part in particular that I am addressing)
Matthew Geesling
January 26th, 2009 at 12:41 pm
I have been reading and watching SGM Refuge and SGM Survivors for three months now. I am a current member at Sovereign Grace Church in Gilbert, AZ. Yes I go back to the PDI days.
One question begs to be asked, How is this site and what your doing furthering the Gospel? All I read seems to add up to a lot of complaining, jealousy, resentment, gossip, slander, and anger. I do see a lot of scripture being passed back and forth but nothing about the Gospel. Where is the love, forgiveness and understanding? I must add that there are some posts that are real concerns, “Esther” is one of those.
To close my post I just ask that one question, where is the Gospel and where is it in your lives?
I do understand if you do not put my post online.
Matthew Geesling
Matthew, your observation that the gospel is not present there, nor in our lives is downright offensive (in the sense of an attack) and not in love. THAT is what I meant by spitting venom. You went right for the throat – the worst insult you can make or worst rebuke you can make to another believer is that they don’t speak or represent the gospel of Jesus Christ, and you know it as well as we all do. You didn’t waste any time in rebuking us for our “sins”, so I didn’t waste any time in calling it for what it was.
If you spent some time here and read our stories, you would clearly see the heart of the gospel in all we say and do. Are we perfect in this? Of course not. We’ve all been hurt. But we STILL love the Body of Christ and love the HEAD of the Body, Christ, even more! Your comments were divisive. Our aim here is to edify and equip the saints..and are not what you have assumed them to be.
Despite our differences of opinions, I am glad your voice is in this discussion. If no one from SGM churches gave any voice, then those who were presently attending SGM churches and are not sure what to think but are reading these blogs would be at a loss for the “other side” of the story.
So your words, and others, in response to disagreement about your church on any level, are very revealing about what is at the heart of SGM. So thanks for being here.
Tim, welcome to the Refuge..glad you are here brother! I am encouraged you are not afriad to find the truth. I was just telling a friend this morning that is a dangerous thing (not to mention a great lack of faith) to simply accept things and remain in your comfort zone at the expense of the truth being known.
You are very wise for taking the time, and being a Berean..please weigh all you read here against Scripture, what you know Scripture teaches, and what the Lord is personally teaching you. I don’t know what His will is for you or your family as far as remaining or leaving the church you are in, but if you seek Him, He will tell you of course.
I am not beyond hoping that the Lord will raise up wise, discerning men and women to begin questioning leadership from WITHIN the walls of SGM churches. We have all lost that opportunity because we have either left of our own free will, were asked to leave, or were shunned until we did. But the bottom line was, we are not welcome anymore in the churches we left. So therefore, our questions are written off as invalid, and somehow viewed as unimportant.
However, should these questions arise more often from active members, what would happen? Perhaps you may end up “like us” – without the church you thought was so wonderful, and left asking more questions. Perhaps the Lord will use you and others to shed more light – we can only pray. But please seek Him, not man, for the answers. Look to His Word, which is perfect, and not the “recommended books.”
Don’t think of joining the church you have as an outright mistake should you eventually leave, God works all things out for the good of those who love Him and are called according to HIS purpose, right? He will be glorified, just yield to Him.
Juli,
I did not intend it to be an attach on you or anyone else personally.
Please forgive me for that.
Matthew
I remember slightly befriending a couple and their children when I was attending Sovereign Grace. I remember calling them after not sitting by them in a Sunday service. The father said to me…This is a shepharding church and my family will have nothing to do with that.
I often think how did they see that in 5 weeks what took me 20 years to get.
Matthew,
I forgive you, thank you for apologizing.
Charlie,
If you’ve experienced shepherding before, you know it when you see it. Even if you agree with it, you know it when you see it, but you don’t think it is a bad thing – nonetheless, it is easily recognizable, once you experience it. Unfortunately, you have to experience it in it’s complexity and depth, which often results in being, er, “shepherded”
I have many friends locally who also told me the same thing about the church I left here – you see, people have known about this church for years, even before they were part of SGM..and come to find out, they all said the same thing when they found out I left and why – yeah, they’re into shepherding and very cultish…wondered why you went there.” (they still have no idea who SGM is, but they knew the shepherding when they saw it, even before they joined SGM) I am confident the leadership also recognized it, (again, not as bad, but something good) which is why they asked to be adopted in.
I almost screamed – why in the world didn’t you TELL me before I joined?? haha But God had His purposes..it’s all good now. At least for me anyway. Still praying for them.
I had a good talk with Matthew G today.
He seems to be a reasonable guy.
Be Bold-I’d consider his offer and give him a call.
Sounds like progress is being made, for which I’m thankful!
God bless!!
Tim–
Welcome!
Here is a good litmus test:
Do you have a heart for missions? Do you believe that some of the last words out of the mouth of Jesus before his ascension commanded us to go into the world and preach the gospel to the unbelievers?
If so, you are in the wrong place. SGM does not support international missions. Individual members are never sent out as missionaries (except to plant churches in wealthy suburbs already well evangelized). Hudson Taylor? billy Graham? jim Elliott? All wasting their time, according to SGM missions view.
Did you profit from parachurch organizations in college? Campus Crusade, Navs, IV, RUF? If so, please know that your new church thinks they are unacceptable and rebuke those who want to be involved with them.
Do you believe that parents should have long term say in a child’s life–even post marriage? If so, do you welcome this level of input from your parents and your in-laws? This is SGM stuff.
Do you believe that a congregation should have a say in electing elders and deacons–choosing from among themselves godly men to lead them? If so, run. You are in an episcopal form of polity–Mahaney and his apostles dictate and move pastors around like chess figures, with no congregational say at all.
Do you believe that a church should give generously to the poor, within and without its walls? If so, you are in a denomination (yup, it is one, check the dictionary), that gives practically nothing. SGCC in VA recently increased their benevolence by tenfold–which brought it up to a remarkable half of a percent. (Much of which, apparently, was spent on travel for conferences, I believe?)
Do you feel like it is fine to blow off Care Group one night to stay home and rest together? Better come up with a better excuse than that. If you signed the contract, you committed to being there, my friend.
Do you think that nine months of Pastors’ College, whose curriculum is completely secret, if seriously acceptable to train a young man to handle the Word of God with skill? Nine months?
Enough from me. What do you think? Apart from exuberant worship, and very welcoming people, why are you choosing SGM?
Couldn’t have said it better. Nice job RT!
Matthew, that is a fair question and I understand why you are upset. Were I in your situation, I probably would be upset to. (I am a total Mama Bear when it comes to my family.)
I used to not be afraid to ask questions. In my previous church, I asked them all the time.
And I have asked questions off and on over the years here at SGC Gilbert. But I don’t get clear answers. And usually, I leave feeling guilty for having asked. Initially, I may feel like my questions were answered, but upon reflecting on what the answers mean, I realize that my questions were never really answered in the first place, just deflected.
In addition to getting non-answers, there are other ways I feel like I’ve been shut down.
A couple of years ago many of us had concerns about what was happening in caregroups. Most caregroup nights, my family leaves depressed.
How did the leaders respond to concerns? With a skit at the family meeting addressing caregroup discussion etiquette. The message was clear. The gentleman in the skit who wanted to discuss the Bible (representing those who wanted to have Bible study as a part of caregroup) was mocked. He was depicted as one who wants to argue and debate theology. We were instructed that good caregroup attendees were to meekly share personal updates and confess sin. I left the meeting feeling humiliated and have not brought up questions regarding this issue again.
I have no desire to get together at this stage in my life and debate theology. But instead of focusing on MYSELF and MY sin or the sins of others, I want to focus on my Creator God, the God who saved me by the shedding of his blood, the God who has freed me to love and worship Him.
I am not bitter towards any individuals in my church. In fact, I love all of our pastors and the wonderful people in our congregation. But I am VERY frustrated with the culture that SGM’s doctrine and beliefs has propagated. I hate what I have become. And yes, I’m fearful of what it would mean should I be “outed” and people in my church know that I have posted here.
Since many have the asked questions about the SGM Pastor’s College, here is some information that came to me in the E-Journal of IX Marks Ministry (which is a journal that has some very good articles.
Here are the answers provided by the Sovereign Grace Pastors College (submitted by Jeff Purswell). The Sovereign Grace Pastors College is located in Gaithersburg, Maryland.
Organization name
Sovereign Grace Ministries’ Pastors College
Year began
1997
What’s the relationship between the organization and a local church?
The college exists to train men for pastoral ministry within the churches of Sovereign Grace Ministries. Therefore, there is an intentional connection that exists generally between the college and our churches—a connection that spans the entire training process, from a student’s application to the school to his deployment in a specific local church. The average student comes from a church with specific doctrinal commitments and certain essential values, and the college builds upon that foundation with an academic and practical curriculum that deepens and reinforces those commitments and values.
More specifically, the college is housed on the premises of Covenant Life Church, and its leadership, as well as a number of its instructors, serve as pastors at Covenant Life. This ensures that the relationship with the local church is not simply one of location, but rather one in which the theology, general methodology, and experience of the church’s pastoral team is transferred to the students. Simply put, Covenant Life functions as a working model for the kind of pastoral ministry for which the students are being trained.
How many students per semester or year?
20 to 25.
What’s the length of the program?
10 months.
Does the program cost?
Tuition for the 2008-09 academic year was $8500 plus books and an activity fee.
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Is it full time? Are students allowed/required to be doing something else (work/study) at the same time?
Yes, the program is full-time, and due to the significant course load, students devote all of their energies to this concentrated 10-month program.
Is housing made available for students? Cost?
We have a dedicated administrative staff who will assist all students in locating area housing. The college owns five townhomes used for student housing, while other students live either with families from the church or in other rental arrangements. Costs vary due to specific needs.
What are the programs goals?
As noted above, the program is designed to equip students for pastoral ministry within Sovereign Grace churches. This training encompasses three primary areas: academic/theological training, personal character development, and practical training for ministry.
What’s involved in the application process?
The application process is really part of a larger process in which a man explores his sense of calling to pastoral ministry with his pastor(s) within the context of a local church. When the potential student and his pastors reach a point of faith regarding his calling and the timing of his training, he will apply to the college, and his pastor will complete an extensive pastoral recommendation form. The college reviews the applications, often following up with the pastor with questions and/or concerns related to the student’s gifting, character, or even the timing of his training. This process serves both the student and his church, as well as the college, in helping to ensure as much as possible that a student does indeed have the gifting and character necessary for pastoral ministry. Because of this process, most applications to the college are ultimately accepted.
Can you give a brief overview of how the program works from the student’s standpoint?
Students are immersed in a rigorous academic schedule, with classes running weekly from Tuesday-Friday, 9:00 to 4:00. Each student is also part of a fellowship group consisting of four students, which meets weekly (1.5 hours) for encouragement and accountability. In addition, students and their wives are part of larger “care groups” (6 to 8 couples) which meet monthly with our director of Student Care and his wife to receive care in the areas of marriage, parenting, etc. Once each month, the students and their wives meet with C.J. and Carolyn Mahaney (sometimes as couples, sometimes separately as men and women) to benefit from their wisdom and experience. Practical skills are sharpened through a weekly preaching lab in which a student preaches and receives constructive feedback and through structured observation of various ministries of Covenant Life Church.
In addition to the aforementioned care groups and times with the Mahaneys, there are other contexts in which the students’ wives receive care and training, including their own fellowship groups and monthly meetings where they receive specific instruction to equip them to serve alongside their husbands.
What responsibilities does the student have in a typical week?
A normal week consists of about 24 hours of classroom instruction, 27 to 30 hours of outside reading and assignments, one fellowship group meeting (Wednesday lunch), and occasional evening meetings (two per month).
Any further responsibilities or opportunities for the student?
In addition to the assignments for the weekly courses, the students also write 5 to 7 research papers throughout the year, take a full year of seminary-level Greek, preach once in class and at least once (often twice) in a Sovereign Grace church, attend 7 different ministries of Covenant Life Church, and write brief interaction papers evaluating those visits. There are also a number of social activities and events (e.g., fall picnic, sweetheart party, guided tour of D.C., etc.) designed for the students by a team of volunteers from Covenant Life dedicated to serving the students
How many pastors are involved? How are they involved and what’s the cost on their time?
The college has two full time staff members who are pastors. The dean of the college has overall responsibility for the college, with particular focus on the academic program. He also teaches 8 to 10 courses during the year. The director of student care is responsible for the care of the students and their families, and focuses in particular on the character development of the students.
How many non-pastoral staff are involved and what do they do?
We have one full time administrative assistant, and one academic intern who assists the dean in a variety of functions.
What is this program good for accomplishing?
Perhaps the greatest benefit of the program comes through the cumulative effect gained by the combination of academic training, character development, and practical training, all done in the context of a working model of a local church. This helps ensure that the classroom training doesn’t merely deliver information, but rather trains men through the lens of pastoral ministry. We are quite self-conscious in our focus on “theological ministry”—i.e., seeking to ground all pastoral methodology upon biblical and theological convictions.
What is it not good for accomplishing?
Ours is specifically pastoral training, so we are not structured to train scholars. We also recognize the limitations of a one-year program, so we emphasize to our students the necessity of life-long learning, as well as providing on-going training opportunities to Sovereign Grace pastors after graduation.
Where are your graduated students now and what are they doing?
Since 1997, we have graduated 185 students. Of these, 152 (82%) are currently in vocational ministry in 63 churches throughout the U.S. and in 8 other nations. Out of these graduates, 20 students have planted churches, and 39 are serving as senior pastors.
Watching closely – I just wanted you to know that you are being prayed for tonight.
Be Bold
Brother Cadfael:
You wrote:
“I have listened several times to Brother Rich’s confession of pride and self sufficiency. Here at the Abbey we all thought it very heartfelt. Fascinating that within SGM all behavior is reduced to these two sins.”
I think it might also be correct to say the the third element of the reductionism is attempting to categorize member’s sins as “Selfish Ambition” One might argue that this is simply a manifestation of pride but I have seen and heard of enough people get tarred with this supposed opprobrium to know that it SGM will play this card when necessary
Watching Closely,
Dang!
Wish I could introduce you to my buddy!
This fear thing is not God. And yet, I get what you are saying.
You are on track to get out of there, God doesn’t want you shut down.
My buddy is packing his bags soon.
Be encouraged wc, your eyes and ears are open to what God has for you.
Cowboy – I will also be praying for your friend. I hope that he does end up moving out of this church and into a healthy environment. I know of a couple of other families who are also watching and questioning. I believe that there will be more changes within the Gilbert church in the weeks to come. Praise God that people are being freed from this bondage.
It’s very likely that I know your friend. It’s very likely that I know Watching Closely. Hopefully there will come a time when we can encourage each other openly.
Jim – Unfortunately, Matthew would not be willing to meet with me.
Cowboy, you are what brought me out of lurkdom. I feel for your friend and am so sorry he was blind-sided by all of this.
And yes, God is doing marvelous things in my life. He never gives up on me and I’m so thankful for that!
Thanks also to Be Bold, Jim/Carole, Juli and everyone else for your prayers!
Brother Caedfal and Reformed Teacher, I love your insight. thanks for sharing.
RT,
Great post! All potential members of SGM churches should be given this information up front so they can make an informed decision as to whether they want to join together with an SGM church. Then there would be no “surprises” on down the road.
Do they (SGM leadership) think they have a better chance of boosting membership in their churches if they remain silent (or don’t share the whole truth) on what they believe and practice? And, if that is the case, does it denote an atmosphere of deceit on their part?
There’s just too much left unsaid, or hidden… I’m just wondering what their (leaders) reasoning is behind this… Any ideas, anyone?
RE:Bereans – When i brought up that passage in our exit interview with CLC, about how no scripture was taught or used in the sermons so how could we be like Bereans and examine what Josh or the other pastors said becuase they never showed us how they got what they were saying from scriptures. We were told by the pastor that they disagree with that interpretation of the passage, that the bereans were not judging what paul taught. Suprise, Suprise.
Be Bold,
I am willing to meet with you.
This is what families do.
Give me a call.
Matthew
Pres-
That would be a unique interpretation.
Did they say what the Bereans were doing to be commended by Luke?
Reformed Teacher-
About your post on Feb 9 at 8:21pm. I have often wondered why SGM does not talk about the persecuted church around the world, or about missions other than sovereign grace, as you pointed out in your post. Can you or anyone else tell me why that is? I am very curious, as this has bothered me for a long time. What IS SGM’s view on missions and parachurch organizations?
Formersgmer – interesting article on the PC. Thanks.
But, really, how vague can you get…..this line?…..”The average student comes from a church with specific doctrinal commitments and certain essential values,”
What are the “specific doctrinal commitments”?
What are the “certain essential values”?
And the poor fellow who is the propsective student’s pastor! He has to do all the foot-work in the application process! The student doesn’t need to be the one to write the essay, take the test, etc. It is the fellow’s pastor who has to jump through hoops to get the fellow into the college.
Hi everyone, thanks for the welcome. Wow, it looks like I got some pretty strong feeback!
“Gratefully…”, you asked about my “journey”. I have been a believer for about ten years, though I had grown up in and around church for most of my life. Church background has been a mix of charismatic churches (especially early on), but influenced a lot by the likes of RC Sproul, John Macarthur (except for his book “Charismatic Chaos, strong disagreements there!), Jack Deere (for his emphasis on the Spirit and a testimony similar to mine), and John Piper. So I have attended a mix of Presbyterian churches and some reformed Baptist churches as well.
I heard about this church plant after looking for a reformed/charismatic church and learning about SGM. My family checked out a couple of services and were really blown away by the content of the preaching (not individualistic, but God-centered, with a heavy focus on the Kingdom of God, his redeeming a people—this was remarkably similar to the teaching I had grown to love from the likes of some of the aforementioned public teachers), and the (dare I say it?) humility displayed by the different people I met. I met several people who I learned had a significant base of theological knowledge and yet they were more interested in hearing about us than telling me about their “Christian resume”. We decided to pray about whether to leave our existing church ( a reformed Baptist church) and join this church and saw a few things fall into place, had conversations with many godly men I trust (and still have relationship with) and felt overall encouraged to step that way. We’ve been here for about a year or so now. We did sign some kind of membership agreement, can’t remember off hand if it was called a covenant or not, but I do remember seeing statements about church discipline and being surprised (though in a good way) to see that included. The only reason I mention this is because I have been disappointed in the past when I have seen people in churches committing egregious sin (adultery comes to the top of the list) and not being addressed seriously by the church at all. In the few cases where they were addressed, it certainly wasn’t with any kind of “Matthew 18 process” or 1 Corinthians 5 or anything similar. So it was nice to see that they at least declared that they believe that this is still a process for today (though I haven’t seen anything walked out yet, thankfully).
“Just say no…”, I appreciate your concern and earnest exhortation, I will probably not immediately walk (or run) out the door, but will more likely talk with my pastor and ask some questions that have been raised on here. He has been pretty open in my time here about talking through questions people have. In our membership class, we had some people raise some pretty hard questions and he didn’t dodge them at all. Further, I’ve already asked my care group leader about this website and he has been pretty open with me about it and has expressed serious concern over several issues raised here. He didn’t immediately go into a defensive mode, he seemed genuinely concerned and said that the pastors would be happy to talk with me as well if I had questions that I am concerned with. So I am reading this and praying about it, trying to seek the Lord and what his will is for me related to all this. Ultimately I trust Him and His Spirit to lead and protect my family, He is our Shepherd and I know He is faithful to care for us.
“Musicman”, thanks for sharing your story, I just finished reading it and am sorry to hear about your experience. I have been burned a couple of times, not to the extent that you have, but I certainly sympathize with your story. I hope that you have found a good church where you are meeting the Lord and growing with a body of believers. I also prayed for you after reading your story and would like to hear how things are going for you these days.
“Steve240”, thanks for the warning. I’m not sure what to do here. In the experience I have had so far, the pastor and my care group leader have been pretty open about some of this stuff. The only point that I have anything resembling a disagreement was about evangelism and missions. I follow the mold more here of my Baptist heritage and am a big supporter (financially) of international missions and I know the view here is quite different. We talked about it and my pastor agreed with me that SGM hasn’t been really “known” for this focus and that it is something they are trying to grow in and emphasize more. We recently even went through some evangelism training material developed by (I think) another SGM church in similar fashion to the “Way of the Master” material. So, I will definitely heed your warning and keep my eyes open. Also, I know CJ leads the ministry, but he hasn’t been to our church and I really haven’t hear a whole lot about him (other than a men’s conference I went to where he spoke). So, I don’t know if my church is just not that connected or if I’m just missing it on that. But again, I’ll keep my eyes open.
“Freedom”, thanks for the warning, I have read some of the stories (I’m having to be pretty judicious with my time here though, I don’t want to steal too much of my employers time by reading this while at work, and at home I’ve got a pretty busy life. So for now it’s mainly reading on my lunch break) on here and it really seems that many people have experienced significant abuse and lack of care. I grieve over this and have experienced similar things in other churches. It is such a shame when a workman of God is unfaithful to the extent that many have described here. I don’t think I’ve seen my pastor discussed on here (and by the way, I am very grateful for the fact that so many people on here are being careful not to name names, though I know it can be awfully tempting). I do believe though with all my heart that as James said leaders will be held to a stricter judgment that on that Great Day of Judgment God will vindicate those wronged and will right all things. “Aushwitz”?!?! Wow, that’s quite a condemnation! I did read the blog posts about that church, seems like the pastors there have a lot of things to think through, apologize for, and rethinking of their calling.
“Juli”, thanks for the welcome and the reminder to weigh all things against Scripture. In line with the reformers, this is certainly my rule (Sola Scriptura). I haven’t been in a church yet that I didn’t have a list of disagreements with, but I usually try to view them through the “theological triage” of how closely related to the gospel they are. So far, I don’t see immediate danger, but I know there are many on here that had been with the ministry so much longer than I have and that is certainly significant. Mainly, I want to follow God wherever he leads my family and entrust our lives to Him. Thanks also for the reminder that God works all things, all things, for the good of those who love Him and are called according to His purpose. That promise has gotten me through many difficult situations.
“Reformed…”, thanks for the welcome and the information. As I mentioned above, I do disagree with the historical practice, or lack of emphasis, on missions and evangelism within SGM, though I do see hope for change. My church is actually sending out a group of people from the church to do a short term mission trip this summer. Now, again, I would like to see more of an emphasis than one mission trip a year, but hey, it’s a start I guess. Nor too sure about the church polity, I have the book by Dave Harvey (a Westminster grad I think?) but haven’t read it yet. Regarding the money for the poor and all, I don’t know much about what our church gives, I haven’t seen any kind of financial summary like that (certainly different than my Baptist heritage, or Presbyterian church that ran a soup kitchen), but since this is such a young church I’m not too surprised. I guess I would like to ask my pastor if this will be something that will change. Regarding the pastor’s college, I did ask a lot of questions about that as I certainly don’t think that it is the equivalent to seminary training (though I completely disagree that seminary is at all necessary for every pastoral candidate to undergo), but my pastor said they don’t pass it off as a substitute and that he actually still attends classes at a local seminary (reformed) as he thinks continual learning is invaluable. I don’t really know the educational background of the other pastors of course, but it was good to hear that he has this frame of mind. Regarding my reasons for choosing SGM, I think I mentioned that above, but would be happy to discuss it further.
I think I responded to everyone that commented towards me. Thanks for the welcome and suggestions, and again, I’ll probably keep an eye here for a while as I continue to process these things.
Praying for God to work in each of your lives,
Tim
Boo,
you asked a quesation about what SGM thinks of parachurch organizations and foreign missions (can I add evangelism to that?)
I think before we could have any sort of conversation about what SGM thinks, we’d have to know their definitions of 1)the Gospel 2) missions 3) evangelism
I have my thoughts about how these are defined officially, and then practically (as seen worked out in the churches)
SOmeone will have ot help with the official defintions and then we can compare them to what the Word teaches, and then what we have individually seen worked out (or not) in the churches. The disconnects will become obvious to all.
I can speak to what the Word says, and what I observed firsthand..anyone care to help with what SGM officially defines as missions, etc..please, use actual quotes and documents, not “I was told this..” because I think it owuld be helpful for those considering SGM and who see the importance of missions to actually SEE those disconnects and inconsistencies..
I’ll post later with what the Word teaches us, and then what I personally observed..
Tim–
OK, you win the prize for the most complete answers ever to multiple questions!! Congratulations! It was good to read your words, thank you for allowing such rational discussion. If you’ll allow me to continue the conversation, I’d love that. I will only respond to your response to my original post. (BTW, I’d take points away from one of my students for that poorly constructed sentence, don’t you know.)
You said: As I mentioned above, I do disagree with the historical practice, or lack of emphasis, on missions and evangelism within SGM, though I do see hope for change. My church is actually sending out a group of people from the church to do a short term mission trip this summer. Now, again, I would like to see more of an emphasis than one mission trip a year, but hey, it’s a start I guess.”
My question: “hope for change” is defined by what specific move in your church? Additionally, is the trip planned to an orphanage in Juarez Mexico? If so, please know that that trip, allow probably valuable, is to a wealthy congregation there that is more than capable of working on the orphanage. Sure, it is good to go. But what about missions in the traditional sense–evangelism? medical missions? help for the truly destitute?
My issue with them is not only that there are not short term missions trips. My problem is that they disagree with the way international missions are done. They reject the notion that a missionary is effective. They hold that the only way to ‘do missions’ is for an established pastor to go to another country and ‘come alongside’ a local pastor.
Do you remember missionaries coming to your previous churches? You won’t see any of that at SGM, since they don’t support any.
But the Bible says, in Romans 10, ”How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”
So how is this reconciled, the commandment to go and preach the Gospel to the lost, baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, with the notion that laymen are not capable of doing anything other than hammering nails in Juarez and then going to wealthy Mexican homes for pool-side dinners?
You said: “Nor too sure about the church polity, I have the book by Dave Harvey (a Westminster grad I think?) but haven’t read it yet. ”
My reply: you won’t need to read the Harvey book, their polity is quite straightforward–absolutely no congregational involvement in leadership appointment. I am Presbyterian, and noted that you have involvement previously in that form of government. Much like our American bicameral system, a prebyterian form sets men, voted into place by the congregants, in control of the church. Pastors are elders, and have equal vote with the banker or the small business owner or the chef that sits with him on the session.
Also, pastors in most other denominations are called by their congregations. That is not the case with SGM–they are chosen and sent by the ‘central office.’
Check the archives for September and October here, looking for Protestant Knight’s articles on polity. Fantastic.
You said: “Regarding the money for the poor and all, I don’t know much about what our church gives, I haven’t seen any kind of financial summary like that (certainly different than my Baptist heritage, or Presbyterian church that ran a soup kitchen), but since this is such a young church I’m not too surprised.”
My reply: Young church or old, you will find that there is not financial aid given to the community. Often, the youngest churches are most heavily involved in mercy missions and benevolence, since they are still on fire and idealistic.
You can call the office and ask for a copy of their financial statement to be sent to you, being a member that should certainly be a right.
I urge you to compare the benevolence giving to the money sent to Gaithersburg head office. Also, look for missions giving on the statement. Then, ask exactly what that missions giving is. If they are typical, and if they are honest, they will tell you that most of that missions giving is for the mortgage on their building, since their missions policy is restricted only to church planting in suburban bedroom communities.
You said: “I guess I would like to ask my pastor if this will be something that will change.”
My reply: Tim, I beg of you, I plead with you, to do that. But after you ask the question, if he says the church doesn’t think it is wise to pour money into serving the poor of the community, could you ask him why not? This is one thing that most interests me: how does SGM get around the Bible’s urgings to give freely and to care for the poor and the lost?
You said: “Regarding the pastor’s college, I did ask a lot of questions about that as I certainly don’t think that it is the equivalent to seminary training (though I completely disagree that seminary is at all necessary for every pastoral candidate to undergo), but my pastor said they don’t pass it off as a substitute and that he actually still attends classes at a local seminary (reformed) as he thinks continual learning is invaluable. I don’t really know the educational background of the other pastors of course, but it was good to hear that he has this frame of mind.”
My reply: That is not the case around my neck of the woods. The Pastors College is held as superior to seminary, since PC students are not required to spend all that time learning original languages, church history, counseling, etc.
Remember that it is impossible for a young man to decide to go to PC. They must be chosen and told to go by their pastors. This controls the future of SGM by only putting in place young men who have been steeped in SGM polity and doctrine.
You know Mahaney’s educational background, right?
Tim, I am sure it seems like there is a pile-on going on with you. Please take it as sincere concern by fellow brethren (and sistern? nah, that doesn’t work), that you be well warned before committing.
I suspect your family is truly enjoying the intentional friendliness of SGM–you will be love bombed, invited to lots of stuff, kept busy.
Until you ask the wrong question.
Welcome, Tim!
RT-
I’ve just created a post linking to what I think is everything we’ve said regarding SGM polity.
Tim, I am very sorry but I must tell you that in my opinion, talking to your pastor will not truly give you answers. Oh, you may be given answers and some of them may be pleasing to your ears or some may be very confusing depending on the question. Seems that in many cases, it is hard for SGM pastors to give straight answers. However, what you are told and what is lived out and walked out in SGM churches are often two totally opposite things. Be alert, listen, observe the pastors as well as the membership. Also, you have been warned which is more than most of us here had.
Great Post RT – agree with everything. I did see a financial statement once at CLC and boy it was not what i thought. Even if you saw it what might be listed as giving to needy is really giving out sodas to advertise Alpha, or giving out food to advertise for something else. Very little serving the poor – more marketing.
Re their polity, the posts are great, it is not just that they don’t vote for elders or have any congregational involvement. It is that they base this on the fact that CJ and possibly others have the apostolic gift, so they have the sole knowledge of and authority over what happens in each church. Much more than any other denomination there is.
at what point did SGM drop the “apostle” title at least in writing for the general public? The very manner in which they deal with apostleship is indicative of ALL their teachings. For example, they no longer use the titles and apostles don’t refer to themselves as apostles, but the teachings in the churches on what apostleship IS, clearly makes one draw the conclusion that so-and-so must the apostle over this church…
So they employ this method in other areas – it seems to work well by the way, because it leaves people confused and scratching their heads, saying – well, they DON’T refer to themselves as apostles, so how is it everyone calls them that? And, by the way, when nobody in leadership corrects you, you keep going..
When I was learning German while living in Germany, I was shocked. Not only did my textbook learning not prepare me for daily life, but I quickly found out that despite what the textbooks taught, in reality, German people use “this” word or phrase instead of “that” and it means “this”…so to test these things out, I would try them – I’d use phrases and vocabulary words that were new to me in various situations at work, school, or in the pubs. When no one corrected me, I assumed I had it right and was using it in the right context. For someone learning a new language this is critical, and until someone corrects you, you go on assuming things are OK.
Then came the day that I used a phrase directly translated from my textbook and was met with roaring laughter – it seems I had made a GREAT social no-no in terms of conversation that was highly inappropriate..but they knew I was still learning the language and therefore corrected me. Never made the mistake again..for those of you who speak German, the phrase was “Ich bin heiss” which is not something you should say to anyone, except maybe your husband. But the room I was in was rather warm, and I wanted to accounce my discomfort..
So anyway, I digress into German grammar, see what I have become?? haha
Backto SGM language – we used words and phrases, thoughts and ideas and “tossed them out” to see responses..over time, when no one corrected us, we adopted the ideas as solid, good, and so on. At the same time, we were always picking up new language to use..new terminology, buzz words, etc and we knew what these phrases and saying implied because we had heard them used time and again in context..so we figured it out. Thus begins the process of redefinition that makes SGM so famous (and much in behavior like a cult, since cults are also known for redefining terms (see the book Kingdom of the Cults for more explanation) therefore managing to gain more control over you by keeping you confused and deceived, thinking that the way you think is the same way they think, or in our case, the way the Bible teaches..you end up adopting ideas that are unbiblical and thinking it falls into the same category as “thus sayeth the Lord”)
That was very well put, Juli. Until I left, I didn’t realize how many “phrases” I was using were SG only. I had thought I was living out my faith in the marketplace, but after a while, no one in need of Jesus could even understand what my sentences meant.
Juli-they still use the title of apostle, only now it’s sort of a family secret.
http://sgmrefuge.com/2008/07/15/sgm-polity/
FF, “no one in need of Jesus could even understand what my sentences meant.”
I don’t know if to laugh or cry!
I refuse to believe that SGM churches promote missions, evangelism or outreach as the BIBLE defines it. The token “orphanage” in Mexico is so overused as their defense of “but we do missions!” – we all know what THAT “mission” is really like..
they don’t know HOW to relate to the “average” guy who could care less about who Piper or Spurgeon are because they are hungry, depressed, lonely, in prison, or some other area of need way beyond SGM’s capabilities.
SGMers should face it, SGM pastors aren’t equipped to deal with INTERNAL needs of the church as we have seen PROVEN time and again by the many stories (and these are just s sampling, we know there are more), much less the messier and uglier needs of the world. It’s beneath them, both in capability and in terms of their willingness. I’ve NEVER seen it modeled, it was ALWAYS about getting people into the church, THEN they would minister, and even then, I saw person after person leave, only because the people in the church didn’t know how to minister to them, and these poor people would end up taking off.
I don’t blame the individuals in the church, many of them truly reached out, but the problem was, the leadership was so preoccupied with getting all the SGM material into their heads, that they neglected to EQUIP the saints for the minstry they are called to by Jesus Himself. The equipping of the saints doesn’t mean open a library and educate people on the “right” books to read, convert them to calvinism, or make them a SGM junkie.
Sorry, I’m ranting. Where’s my soapbox?? Oh well. I started out commenting on your comment FF and this is where I ended up? haha
I read recently that politicians figure for every ONE person that takes the time to write them about an issue, there are 300 who feel the same way but don’t contact them. I’d say it is higher when it comes to spiritual abuse, because of the fact more people are in fear to speak up. So even if that lower figure is even close to being accurate, then there are MANY people who have been hurt or at least in disagreement with SGM practices/teachings.
But even at ONE church – Chesapeake, 1/4 of the congregation went AWOL in ONE week? That’s some bad news for SGM. Just wait, the numbers are going to crawl.
Jim – “secret” apostles?
Yeah, I remember reading someting about that in Acts. I’m sure it’s Biblical.
Jim, thanks for posting those. It must have taken loads of time, and I (we) certainly appreciate it. So much good stuff here.
I also had questions about the apostle thing. i tussled with one of my beloved students the other day. He said that the men on the apostolic team were not apostles. So are men on the pastor team not pastors? Are men on a baseball team not baseball players? Are members of the pigpen not wee piggies?
Silliness to the rest of Christendom.
A denomination jumps up and down, whining that they are a family of churches, not a denomination. But ‘denomination’ simply means they share a name and a commitment to their own beliefs and practices. I’m sorry, can someone argue why that is not so with SGM?
Silliness.
Members of the APOSTOLIC TEAM don’t want to be called apostles.
Silliness.
Words mean things. Look them up.
Listen RT-
Words mean what we tell you they mean.
Got it?
Aha–it has been four years since we escaped our abusive situation. I have breathed the free air too long. totally forgot.
Yessir. <sound of kool-aid being slurped?
As far as i know they are still called apostles – at least in their writing. While on the website they call them teh leadership team – they still sell their church polity book which was written 4 years ago, and I just read it last night and about half of the books is about why they are apostles, and what that means. Also in it is why they don’t beleive in equal elders but having a head senior pastor, which is interesting too.
Word has it from Chesapeake that Gene Emerson calls himself an apostle.
Regarding the head senior pastor being over the rest of the underling pastors: In my experience with the “staff” at our local SGM establishment, the senior pastor was more of an extension of upper management. The underlings went along with the senior pastor’s “vision.” Let’s be honest here; do we think for a moment that the underlings would stand up to the senior pastor when the underling’s whole vocational career was based on the senior pastor’s word to upper management? These poor men have their whole identities tied to this thing, and they aren’t about to rock the boat and jeopardize their families and vocational future. After all, differing from the “vision” and the “covering” over you shows pride and an independant spirit–heaven forbid. As we all know, violating one’s conscience long enough and the voices tend to go away!
RT said: “Silliness to the rest of Christendom.”
It seems to me that since CJ is amping up his ties to nationally known reformed teachers, they may take offense to his self-appointed “Apostleship”…and he knows this…he knows he looks silly to these truly learned and truly educated and truly deserving men …. but they aren’t so boastful as to self-appoint themselves “Apostles!” How silly he must appear to them.
Therefore, he takes away the term “Apostle” from printed literature to show that he ain’t a nut case….meanwhile….back at home…let the apostolic accolades flow!
opps – posted on wrong thread.
Remnant–that is an excellent point–this apostle thing may be preparation for continued respect in the world of big dogs.
remnant, good point. In fact, I remember reading somewhere that one of the T4G guys teased him about being an “apostle” – so maybe CJ took the hint, dopped the title..I think perhaps it was Mohler..but any of those guys could have givne their own views.
“apostolic covering” is the only thing charismatic about SGM these days, that and the reinvented prophetic mic and the contemporay worship..if a Presbyterian or Reformed Baptist, say, walked into an SGM service, they would likely mistake the frantic worship of the Church and the idols/pastors for a frenzied charismatic movement…they both look similarly shocking ya know.
I’m being kinda silly here..but I think you all get my point
I went to Sovreign grace Gilbert for a number of years. That church was great when I went there but gradually went downhill. I do not trust or respect CJ, I think that his “leadership” is deeply flawed, and this filters downward
SovGraceGilbert,
That is what I saw in the churches I was involved with. The control, focus on sin, etc., happened gradually. I do remember the early days being great (80′s).
SovGraceGilbert,
Welcome to the site!
Please use a valid email address when you post, so I don’t have to make requests such as “please use…” in public.
I’m the only one who sees the email address, and I only see it if I’m looking for it.
Thanks!