I should have included the Gilbert AZ SGC in my last post. Comments about the recent Gilbert weirdness started in another thread, and I want to ensure that the conversation doesn’t get lost in the mix.
The conversation starts here, with an excellent overall summary here.
My opinion is that this is an example of your newandimprovedmorehumblethanever pastor.
Let’s hope that I’m wrong.
Be Bold posted the summary comment, posted below-
I’d like to clear up a couple of additional things regarding the Gilbert situation. I have listened to Rich’s message, and while I have many opinions, I will try hard to stick to what I believe is factual.
Yes, the letter that went out was from a “high profile” couple, although they would likely not be comfortable with that term. They are a humble couple, leaders in the homeschool community, and wise in the Word. The letter went out just a few days prior to the message. I had a feeling the letter would be addressed in some way during the Sunday meeting, because there was damage control to be done. As I listened to the message two things were glaringly obvious to me. 1. Rich was taking great strides to combat some of the “issues” that have been recently circulating throughout the church and on the blogs and it was extremely evident to me that his “confession” was carefully crafted. 2. It was also evident to me that his “confession” was spoken in a way that if my eyes were not already opened to this, I would have been one of the first ones to stand and applaud him in the end. I was saddened by this because I feel that there are many within the Gilbert congregation who were beginning to question some things and I knew that after his “message” Sunday, there was strong potential for them to be sucked right back in.
The members that he publicly commended for supporting a parachurch organization (Joni and Friends) have been supporting that organization for years and years and have been members of the Gilbert church from the earliest stages. They have never been publicly commended for there involvement with Joni and Friends ever before Sunday. It was as if their names were pulled out of the community outreach file to be held up as the shining example of “look at how we as a church support this kind of thing”. There are only a couple of other families within the church that are also heavily involved in parachurch organizations, and I can tell you with certainty, that they are not “hailed” for it and any way.
The man who was publicly apologized to by Rich is a Care Group Leader. I have no strongly formulated opinions on whether his financial contributions to the church had anything at all to do with him being chosen as the recipient of the apology, but regardless, he is one of the wealthiest men in the church. Possibly the wealthiest. I mean him no disrespect at all by sharing that, because from my understanding he is also a man worthy of great respect and honor. I assume (and I know I said I would try to stick to the facts) that the things he brought to Rich’s attention were legitimate and sincere appeals regarding Rich’s sin. I have no trouble believing that he was sincerely owed an apology from Rich, however I am not sure that a public forum was the best place for it.
Then there is also the confusing issue of, “Who really does lead the Gilbert church?” Yes, Rich is the senior pastor. However, the church is definitely “lead” by Glynn Mackenzie. I would be quite surprised if anyone within the Gilbert church would argue with that. Glynn is the pastor who will be leaving to go save the Denver church from self-destruction. I pray for the Denver church, they can’t possibly conceive of what is to come.
There has been a proverbial verbal and emotional slaughtering of many families within the Gilbert church, and all at the hands of pastors other than Rich. He is one of the last ones (here I go being opinionated again) who should have been standing up there apologizing that Sunday.
It was mentioned in one of the earlier posts that Rich seemed to be in Steve Shank’s good favor. That would be true. Rich really is a good guy. He’s a very likable guy and I do believe, fully, that he has been sucked into the system. He is a very young pastor, 35 years old. He’s been the senior pastor there, I believe since he was 29. He came in under tremendous accolades, which ironically SGM is so infamous for. They puff you up to HUGE proportions, but then they knock you down when you show the least bit of pride. When he arrived on the scene after working under Craig Cabaniss for a while, his own father, Trey Richardson, stepped down from his role as the “temporary” senior pastor in order for Rich to step up to the “calling that God has clearly placed on his life”. I tell you all of this only so you have an idea of the age of this pastor. His age was not a negative in his pastoring or preaching at all, however, I believe it to have been a major influence on how easily he has been “lead” by the other, older pastors in the Gilbert church. There are two particularly controlling pastors within the Gilbert church, one being Glynn and the other Trey, and both of them absolutely carry more influence over the “culture” of the church than does Rich. Their pastoring styles are vastly different, Glynn being overtly controlling, and somehow respected for it. Trey being subtley controlling and the one who people tend to flee to if they are weary of Glynn.
There was also an earlier comment referencing that there have been two other families who have recently left prior to the high-profile couple leaving. There have actually been several other families who have left, possibly a little more under the radar, over the past year or so. However, these two particular families did indeed leave for the same reasons. I know both families and they are steadfast in their love for the Lord, but their departures did not cause the uprising that the other family’s departure did, I believe for several reasons. One, their letters were sent to fewer people. Two, their families were very, very close which seems to have led to speculation that one family may have influenced the other, although I know them both and that is absolutely not the case. Three, both families had been “pulling away” for quite a while as their eyes have been slowly opening for a long time, but was being seen by most as sin on their parts for lack of involvement. And four, they were easier to dismiss as leaving for “wrong” or “sinful” reasons than the other family who was very well respected, and rightfully so, they are also a wonderful family. All three families have already received a fair amount of “correction” from well meaning friends and for all three families the shunning process has begun.
The message Rich gave was damage control. The high-profile couple’s letter going out to such a large group dictated the necessity of a public “hearing” of sorts. There was no other option than for the pastoral staff to use the public forum of the Sunday meeting to address what they saw as the most immediately divisive and controversial issues brought up in “The Letter”.
I apologize for the length of this post. There is much more to say, but I am realizing how lengthy this has become.
Matthew, that is a fair question and I understand why you are upset. Were I in your situation, I probably would be upset to. (I am a total Mama Bear when it comes to my family.)
I used to not be afraid to ask questions. In my previous church, I asked them all the time.
And I have asked questions off and on over the years here at SGC Gilbert. But I don’t get clear answers. And usually, I leave feeling guilty for having asked. Initially, I may feel like my questions were answered, but upon reflecting on what the answers mean, I realize that my questions were never really answered in the first place, just deflected.
In addition to getting non-answers, there are other ways I feel like I’ve been shut down.
A couple of years ago many of us had concerns about what was happening in caregroups. Most caregroup nights, my family leaves depressed.
How did the leaders respond to concerns? With a skit at the family meeting addressing caregroup discussion etiquette. The message was clear. The gentleman in the skit who wanted to discuss the Bible (representing those who wanted to have Bible study as a part of caregroup) was mocked. He was depicted as one who wants to argue and debate theology. We were instructed that good caregroup attendees were to meekly share personal updates and confess sin. I left the meeting feeling humiliated and have not brought up questions regarding this issue again.
I have no desire to get together at this stage in my life and debate theology. But instead of focusing on MYSELF and MY sin or the sins of others, I want to focus on my Creator God, the God who saved me by the shedding of his blood, the God who has freed me to love and worship Him.
I am not bitter towards any individuals in my church. In fact, I love all of our pastors and the wonderful people in our congregation. But I am VERY frustrated with the culture that SGM’s doctrine and beliefs has propagated. I hate what I have become. And yes, I’m fearful of what it would mean should I be “outed” and people in my church know that I have posted here.
Since many have the asked questions about the SGM Pastor’s College, here is some information that came to me in the E-Journal of IX Marks Ministry (which is a journal that has some very good articles.
Here are the answers provided by the Sovereign Grace Pastors College (submitted by Jeff Purswell). The Sovereign Grace Pastors College is located in Gaithersburg, Maryland.
Organization name
Sovereign Grace Ministries’ Pastors College
Year began
1997
What’s the relationship between the organization and a local church?
The college exists to train men for pastoral ministry within the churches of Sovereign Grace Ministries. Therefore, there is an intentional connection that exists generally between the college and our churches—a connection that spans the entire training process, from a student’s application to the school to his deployment in a specific local church. The average student comes from a church with specific doctrinal commitments and certain essential values, and the college builds upon that foundation with an academic and practical curriculum that deepens and reinforces those commitments and values.
More specifically, the college is housed on the premises of Covenant Life Church, and its leadership, as well as a number of its instructors, serve as pastors at Covenant Life. This ensures that the relationship with the local church is not simply one of location, but rather one in which the theology, general methodology, and experience of the church’s pastoral team is transferred to the students. Simply put, Covenant Life functions as a working model for the kind of pastoral ministry for which the students are being trained.
How many students per semester or year?
20 to 25.
What’s the length of the program?
10 months.
Does the program cost?
Tuition for the 2008-09 academic year was $8500 plus books and an activity fee.
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Is it full time? Are students allowed/required to be doing something else (work/study) at the same time?
Yes, the program is full-time, and due to the significant course load, students devote all of their energies to this concentrated 10-month program.
Is housing made available for students? Cost?
We have a dedicated administrative staff who will assist all students in locating area housing. The college owns five townhomes used for student housing, while other students live either with families from the church or in other rental arrangements. Costs vary due to specific needs.
What are the programs goals?
As noted above, the program is designed to equip students for pastoral ministry within Sovereign Grace churches. This training encompasses three primary areas: academic/theological training, personal character development, and practical training for ministry.
What’s involved in the application process?
The application process is really part of a larger process in which a man explores his sense of calling to pastoral ministry with his pastor(s) within the context of a local church. When the potential student and his pastors reach a point of faith regarding his calling and the timing of his training, he will apply to the college, and his pastor will complete an extensive pastoral recommendation form. The college reviews the applications, often following up with the pastor with questions and/or concerns related to the student’s gifting, character, or even the timing of his training. This process serves both the student and his church, as well as the college, in helping to ensure as much as possible that a student does indeed have the gifting and character necessary for pastoral ministry. Because of this process, most applications to the college are ultimately accepted.
Can you give a brief overview of how the program works from the student’s standpoint?
Students are immersed in a rigorous academic schedule, with classes running weekly from Tuesday-Friday, 9:00 to 4:00. Each student is also part of a fellowship group consisting of four students, which meets weekly (1.5 hours) for encouragement and accountability. In addition, students and their wives are part of larger “care groups” (6 to 8 couples) which meet monthly with our director of Student Care and his wife to receive care in the areas of marriage, parenting, etc. Once each month, the students and their wives meet with C.J. and Carolyn Mahaney (sometimes as couples, sometimes separately as men and women) to benefit from their wisdom and experience. Practical skills are sharpened through a weekly preaching lab in which a student preaches and receives constructive feedback and through structured observation of various ministries of Covenant Life Church.
In addition to the aforementioned care groups and times with the Mahaneys, there are other contexts in which the students’ wives receive care and training, including their own fellowship groups and monthly meetings where they receive specific instruction to equip them to serve alongside their husbands.
What responsibilities does the student have in a typical week?
A normal week consists of about 24 hours of classroom instruction, 27 to 30 hours of outside reading and assignments, one fellowship group meeting (Wednesday lunch), and occasional evening meetings (two per month).
Any further responsibilities or opportunities for the student?
In addition to the assignments for the weekly courses, the students also write 5 to 7 research papers throughout the year, take a full year of seminary-level Greek, preach once in class and at least once (often twice) in a Sovereign Grace church, attend 7 different ministries of Covenant Life Church, and write brief interaction papers evaluating those visits. There are also a number of social activities and events (e.g., fall picnic, sweetheart party, guided tour of D.C., etc.) designed for the students by a team of volunteers from Covenant Life dedicated to serving the students
How many pastors are involved? How are they involved and what’s the cost on their time?
The college has two full time staff members who are pastors. The dean of the college has overall responsibility for the college, with particular focus on the academic program. He also teaches 8 to 10 courses during the year. The director of student care is responsible for the care of the students and their families, and focuses in particular on the character development of the students.
How many non-pastoral staff are involved and what do they do?
We have one full time administrative assistant, and one academic intern who assists the dean in a variety of functions.
What is this program good for accomplishing?
Perhaps the greatest benefit of the program comes through the cumulative effect gained by the combination of academic training, character development, and practical training, all done in the context of a working model of a local church. This helps ensure that the classroom training doesn’t merely deliver information, but rather trains men through the lens of pastoral ministry. We are quite self-conscious in our focus on “theological ministry”—i.e., seeking to ground all pastoral methodology upon biblical and theological convictions.
What is it not good for accomplishing?
Ours is specifically pastoral training, so we are not structured to train scholars. We also recognize the limitations of a one-year program, so we emphasize to our students the necessity of life-long learning, as well as providing on-going training opportunities to Sovereign Grace pastors after graduation.
Where are your graduated students now and what are they doing?
Since 1997, we have graduated 185 students. Of these, 152 (82%) are currently in vocational ministry in 63 churches throughout the U.S. and in 8 other nations. Out of these graduates, 20 students have planted churches, and 39 are serving as senior pastors.
Watching closely – I just wanted you to know that you are being prayed for tonight.
Be Bold
Brother Cadfael:
You wrote:
“I have listened several times to Brother Rich’s confession of pride and self sufficiency. Here at the Abbey we all thought it very heartfelt. Fascinating that within SGM all behavior is reduced to these two sins.”
I think it might also be correct to say the the third element of the reductionism is attempting to categorize member’s sins as “Selfish Ambition” One might argue that this is simply a manifestation of pride but I have seen and heard of enough people get tarred with this supposed opprobrium to know that it SGM will play this card when necessary
Watching Closely,
Dang!
Wish I could introduce you to my buddy!
This fear thing is not God. And yet, I get what you are saying.
You are on track to get out of there, God doesn’t want you shut down.
My buddy is packing his bags soon.
Be encouraged wc, your eyes and ears are open to what God has for you.
Cowboy – I will also be praying for your friend. I hope that he does end up moving out of this church and into a healthy environment. I know of a couple of other families who are also watching and questioning. I believe that there will be more changes within the Gilbert church in the weeks to come. Praise God that people are being freed from this bondage.
It’s very likely that I know your friend. It’s very likely that I know Watching Closely. Hopefully there will come a time when we can encourage each other openly.
Jim – Unfortunately, Matthew would not be willing to meet with me.
Cowboy, you are what brought me out of lurkdom. I feel for your friend and am so sorry he was blind-sided by all of this.
And yes, God is doing marvelous things in my life. He never gives up on me and I’m so thankful for that!
Thanks also to Be Bold, Jim/Carole, Juli and everyone else for your prayers!
Brother Caedfal and Reformed Teacher, I love your insight. thanks for sharing.
RT,
Great post! All potential members of SGM churches should be given this information up front so they can make an informed decision as to whether they want to join together with an SGM church. Then there would be no “surprises” on down the road.
Do they (SGM leadership) think they have a better chance of boosting membership in their churches if they remain silent (or don’t share the whole truth) on what they believe and practice? And, if that is the case, does it denote an atmosphere of deceit on their part?
There’s just too much left unsaid, or hidden… I’m just wondering what their (leaders) reasoning is behind this… Any ideas, anyone?
RE:Bereans – When i brought up that passage in our exit interview with CLC, about how no scripture was taught or used in the sermons so how could we be like Bereans and examine what Josh or the other pastors said becuase they never showed us how they got what they were saying from scriptures. We were told by the pastor that they disagree with that interpretation of the passage, that the bereans were not judging what paul taught. Suprise, Suprise.
Be Bold,
I am willing to meet with you.
This is what families do.
Give me a call.
Matthew
Pres-
That would be a unique interpretation.
Did they say what the Bereans were doing to be commended by Luke?
Reformed Teacher-
About your post on Feb 9 at 8:21pm. I have often wondered why SGM does not talk about the persecuted church around the world, or about missions other than sovereign grace, as you pointed out in your post. Can you or anyone else tell me why that is? I am very curious, as this has bothered me for a long time. What IS SGM’s view on missions and parachurch organizations?
Formersgmer – interesting article on the PC. Thanks.
But, really, how vague can you get…..this line?…..”The average student comes from a church with specific doctrinal commitments and certain essential values,”
What are the “specific doctrinal commitments”?
What are the “certain essential values”?
And the poor fellow who is the propsective student’s pastor! He has to do all the foot-work in the application process! The student doesn’t need to be the one to write the essay, take the test, etc. It is the fellow’s pastor who has to jump through hoops to get the fellow into the college.
Hi everyone, thanks for the welcome. Wow, it looks like I got some pretty strong feeback!
“Gratefully…”, you asked about my “journey”. I have been a believer for about ten years, though I had grown up in and around church for most of my life. Church background has been a mix of charismatic churches (especially early on), but influenced a lot by the likes of RC Sproul, John Macarthur (except for his book “Charismatic Chaos, strong disagreements there!), Jack Deere (for his emphasis on the Spirit and a testimony similar to mine), and John Piper. So I have attended a mix of Presbyterian churches and some reformed Baptist churches as well.
I heard about this church plant after looking for a reformed/charismatic church and learning about SGM. My family checked out a couple of services and were really blown away by the content of the preaching (not individualistic, but God-centered, with a heavy focus on the Kingdom of God, his redeeming a people—this was remarkably similar to the teaching I had grown to love from the likes of some of the aforementioned public teachers), and the (dare I say it?) humility displayed by the different people I met. I met several people who I learned had a significant base of theological knowledge and yet they were more interested in hearing about us than telling me about their “Christian resume”. We decided to pray about whether to leave our existing church ( a reformed Baptist church) and join this church and saw a few things fall into place, had conversations with many godly men I trust (and still have relationship with) and felt overall encouraged to step that way. We’ve been here for about a year or so now. We did sign some kind of membership agreement, can’t remember off hand if it was called a covenant or not, but I do remember seeing statements about church discipline and being surprised (though in a good way) to see that included. The only reason I mention this is because I have been disappointed in the past when I have seen people in churches committing egregious sin (adultery comes to the top of the list) and not being addressed seriously by the church at all. In the few cases where they were addressed, it certainly wasn’t with any kind of “Matthew 18 process” or 1 Corinthians 5 or anything similar. So it was nice to see that they at least declared that they believe that this is still a process for today (though I haven’t seen anything walked out yet, thankfully).
“Just say no…”, I appreciate your concern and earnest exhortation, I will probably not immediately walk (or run) out the door, but will more likely talk with my pastor and ask some questions that have been raised on here. He has been pretty open in my time here about talking through questions people have. In our membership class, we had some people raise some pretty hard questions and he didn’t dodge them at all. Further, I’ve already asked my care group leader about this website and he has been pretty open with me about it and has expressed serious concern over several issues raised here. He didn’t immediately go into a defensive mode, he seemed genuinely concerned and said that the pastors would be happy to talk with me as well if I had questions that I am concerned with. So I am reading this and praying about it, trying to seek the Lord and what his will is for me related to all this. Ultimately I trust Him and His Spirit to lead and protect my family, He is our Shepherd and I know He is faithful to care for us.
“Musicman”, thanks for sharing your story, I just finished reading it and am sorry to hear about your experience. I have been burned a couple of times, not to the extent that you have, but I certainly sympathize with your story. I hope that you have found a good church where you are meeting the Lord and growing with a body of believers. I also prayed for you after reading your story and would like to hear how things are going for you these days.
“Steve240”, thanks for the warning. I’m not sure what to do here. In the experience I have had so far, the pastor and my care group leader have been pretty open about some of this stuff. The only point that I have anything resembling a disagreement was about evangelism and missions. I follow the mold more here of my Baptist heritage and am a big supporter (financially) of international missions and I know the view here is quite different. We talked about it and my pastor agreed with me that SGM hasn’t been really “known” for this focus and that it is something they are trying to grow in and emphasize more. We recently even went through some evangelism training material developed by (I think) another SGM church in similar fashion to the “Way of the Master” material. So, I will definitely heed your warning and keep my eyes open. Also, I know CJ leads the ministry, but he hasn’t been to our church and I really haven’t hear a whole lot about him (other than a men’s conference I went to where he spoke). So, I don’t know if my church is just not that connected or if I’m just missing it on that. But again, I’ll keep my eyes open.
“Freedom”, thanks for the warning, I have read some of the stories (I’m having to be pretty judicious with my time here though, I don’t want to steal too much of my employers time by reading this while at work, and at home I’ve got a pretty busy life. So for now it’s mainly reading on my lunch break) on here and it really seems that many people have experienced significant abuse and lack of care. I grieve over this and have experienced similar things in other churches. It is such a shame when a workman of God is unfaithful to the extent that many have described here. I don’t think I’ve seen my pastor discussed on here (and by the way, I am very grateful for the fact that so many people on here are being careful not to name names, though I know it can be awfully tempting). I do believe though with all my heart that as James said leaders will be held to a stricter judgment that on that Great Day of Judgment God will vindicate those wronged and will right all things. “Aushwitz”?!?! Wow, that’s quite a condemnation! I did read the blog posts about that church, seems like the pastors there have a lot of things to think through, apologize for, and rethinking of their calling.
“Juli”, thanks for the welcome and the reminder to weigh all things against Scripture. In line with the reformers, this is certainly my rule (Sola Scriptura). I haven’t been in a church yet that I didn’t have a list of disagreements with, but I usually try to view them through the “theological triage” of how closely related to the gospel they are. So far, I don’t see immediate danger, but I know there are many on here that had been with the ministry so much longer than I have and that is certainly significant. Mainly, I want to follow God wherever he leads my family and entrust our lives to Him. Thanks also for the reminder that God works all things, all things, for the good of those who love Him and are called according to His purpose. That promise has gotten me through many difficult situations.
“Reformed…”, thanks for the welcome and the information. As I mentioned above, I do disagree with the historical practice, or lack of emphasis, on missions and evangelism within SGM, though I do see hope for change. My church is actually sending out a group of people from the church to do a short term mission trip this summer. Now, again, I would like to see more of an emphasis than one mission trip a year, but hey, it’s a start I guess. Nor too sure about the church polity, I have the book by Dave Harvey (a Westminster grad I think?) but haven’t read it yet. Regarding the money for the poor and all, I don’t know much about what our church gives, I haven’t seen any kind of financial summary like that (certainly different than my Baptist heritage, or Presbyterian church that ran a soup kitchen), but since this is such a young church I’m not too surprised. I guess I would like to ask my pastor if this will be something that will change. Regarding the pastor’s college, I did ask a lot of questions about that as I certainly don’t think that it is the equivalent to seminary training (though I completely disagree that seminary is at all necessary for every pastoral candidate to undergo), but my pastor said they don’t pass it off as a substitute and that he actually still attends classes at a local seminary (reformed) as he thinks continual learning is invaluable. I don’t really know the educational background of the other pastors of course, but it was good to hear that he has this frame of mind. Regarding my reasons for choosing SGM, I think I mentioned that above, but would be happy to discuss it further.
I think I responded to everyone that commented towards me. Thanks for the welcome and suggestions, and again, I’ll probably keep an eye here for a while as I continue to process these things.
Praying for God to work in each of your lives,
Tim
Boo,
you asked a quesation about what SGM thinks of parachurch organizations and foreign missions (can I add evangelism to that?)
I think before we could have any sort of conversation about what SGM thinks, we’d have to know their definitions of 1)the Gospel 2) missions 3) evangelism
I have my thoughts about how these are defined officially, and then practically (as seen worked out in the churches)
SOmeone will have ot help with the official defintions and then we can compare them to what the Word teaches, and then what we have individually seen worked out (or not) in the churches. The disconnects will become obvious to all.
I can speak to what the Word says, and what I observed firsthand..anyone care to help with what SGM officially defines as missions, etc..please, use actual quotes and documents, not “I was told this..” because I think it owuld be helpful for those considering SGM and who see the importance of missions to actually SEE those disconnects and inconsistencies..
I’ll post later with what the Word teaches us, and then what I personally observed..
Tim–
OK, you win the prize for the most complete answers ever to multiple questions!! Congratulations! It was good to read your words, thank you for allowing such rational discussion. If you’ll allow me to continue the conversation, I’d love that. I will only respond to your response to my original post. (BTW, I’d take points away from one of my students for that poorly constructed sentence, don’t you know.)
You said: As I mentioned above, I do disagree with the historical practice, or lack of emphasis, on missions and evangelism within SGM, though I do see hope for change. My church is actually sending out a group of people from the church to do a short term mission trip this summer. Now, again, I would like to see more of an emphasis than one mission trip a year, but hey, it’s a start I guess.”
My question: “hope for change” is defined by what specific move in your church? Additionally, is the trip planned to an orphanage in Juarez Mexico? If so, please know that that trip, allow probably valuable, is to a wealthy congregation there that is more than capable of working on the orphanage. Sure, it is good to go. But what about missions in the traditional sense–evangelism? medical missions? help for the truly destitute?
My issue with them is not only that there are not short term missions trips. My problem is that they disagree with the way international missions are done. They reject the notion that a missionary is effective. They hold that the only way to ‘do missions’ is for an established pastor to go to another country and ‘come alongside’ a local pastor.
Do you remember missionaries coming to your previous churches? You won’t see any of that at SGM, since they don’t support any.
But the Bible says, in Romans 10, ”How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”
So how is this reconciled, the commandment to go and preach the Gospel to the lost, baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, with the notion that laymen are not capable of doing anything other than hammering nails in Juarez and then going to wealthy Mexican homes for pool-side dinners?
You said: “Nor too sure about the church polity, I have the book by Dave Harvey (a Westminster grad I think?) but haven’t read it yet. ”
My reply: you won’t need to read the Harvey book, their polity is quite straightforward–absolutely no congregational involvement in leadership appointment. I am Presbyterian, and noted that you have involvement previously in that form of government. Much like our American bicameral system, a prebyterian form sets men, voted into place by the congregants, in control of the church. Pastors are elders, and have equal vote with the banker or the small business owner or the chef that sits with him on the session.
Also, pastors in most other denominations are called by their congregations. That is not the case with SGM–they are chosen and sent by the ‘central office.’
Check the archives for September and October here, looking for Protestant Knight’s articles on polity. Fantastic.
You said: “Regarding the money for the poor and all, I don’t know much about what our church gives, I haven’t seen any kind of financial summary like that (certainly different than my Baptist heritage, or Presbyterian church that ran a soup kitchen), but since this is such a young church I’m not too surprised.”
My reply: Young church or old, you will find that there is not financial aid given to the community. Often, the youngest churches are most heavily involved in mercy missions and benevolence, since they are still on fire and idealistic.
You can call the office and ask for a copy of their financial statement to be sent to you, being a member that should certainly be a right.
I urge you to compare the benevolence giving to the money sent to Gaithersburg head office. Also, look for missions giving on the statement. Then, ask exactly what that missions giving is. If they are typical, and if they are honest, they will tell you that most of that missions giving is for the mortgage on their building, since their missions policy is restricted only to church planting in suburban bedroom communities.
You said: “I guess I would like to ask my pastor if this will be something that will change.”
My reply: Tim, I beg of you, I plead with you, to do that. But after you ask the question, if he says the church doesn’t think it is wise to pour money into serving the poor of the community, could you ask him why not? This is one thing that most interests me: how does SGM get around the Bible’s urgings to give freely and to care for the poor and the lost?
You said: “Regarding the pastor’s college, I did ask a lot of questions about that as I certainly don’t think that it is the equivalent to seminary training (though I completely disagree that seminary is at all necessary for every pastoral candidate to undergo), but my pastor said they don’t pass it off as a substitute and that he actually still attends classes at a local seminary (reformed) as he thinks continual learning is invaluable. I don’t really know the educational background of the other pastors of course, but it was good to hear that he has this frame of mind.”
My reply: That is not the case around my neck of the woods. The Pastors College is held as superior to seminary, since PC students are not required to spend all that time learning original languages, church history, counseling, etc.
Remember that it is impossible for a young man to decide to go to PC. They must be chosen and told to go by their pastors. This controls the future of SGM by only putting in place young men who have been steeped in SGM polity and doctrine.
You know Mahaney’s educational background, right?
Tim, I am sure it seems like there is a pile-on going on with you. Please take it as sincere concern by fellow brethren (and sistern? nah, that doesn’t work), that you be well warned before committing.
I suspect your family is truly enjoying the intentional friendliness of SGM–you will be love bombed, invited to lots of stuff, kept busy.
Until you ask the wrong question.
Welcome, Tim!
RT-
I’ve just created a post linking to what I think is everything we’ve said regarding SGM polity.
Tim, I am very sorry but I must tell you that in my opinion, talking to your pastor will not truly give you answers. Oh, you may be given answers and some of them may be pleasing to your ears or some may be very confusing depending on the question. Seems that in many cases, it is hard for SGM pastors to give straight answers. However, what you are told and what is lived out and walked out in SGM churches are often two totally opposite things. Be alert, listen, observe the pastors as well as the membership. Also, you have been warned which is more than most of us here had.
Great Post RT – agree with everything. I did see a financial statement once at CLC and boy it was not what i thought. Even if you saw it what might be listed as giving to needy is really giving out sodas to advertise Alpha, or giving out food to advertise for something else. Very little serving the poor – more marketing.
Re their polity, the posts are great, it is not just that they don’t vote for elders or have any congregational involvement. It is that they base this on the fact that CJ and possibly others have the apostolic gift, so they have the sole knowledge of and authority over what happens in each church. Much more than any other denomination there is.
at what point did SGM drop the “apostle” title at least in writing for the general public? The very manner in which they deal with apostleship is indicative of ALL their teachings. For example, they no longer use the titles and apostles don’t refer to themselves as apostles, but the teachings in the churches on what apostleship IS, clearly makes one draw the conclusion that so-and-so must the apostle over this church…
So they employ this method in other areas – it seems to work well by the way, because it leaves people confused and scratching their heads, saying – well, they DON’T refer to themselves as apostles, so how is it everyone calls them that? And, by the way, when nobody in leadership corrects you, you keep going..
When I was learning German while living in Germany, I was shocked. Not only did my textbook learning not prepare me for daily life, but I quickly found out that despite what the textbooks taught, in reality, German people use “this” word or phrase instead of “that” and it means “this”…so to test these things out, I would try them – I’d use phrases and vocabulary words that were new to me in various situations at work, school, or in the pubs. When no one corrected me, I assumed I had it right and was using it in the right context. For someone learning a new language this is critical, and until someone corrects you, you go on assuming things are OK.
Then came the day that I used a phrase directly translated from my textbook and was met with roaring laughter – it seems I had made a GREAT social no-no in terms of conversation that was highly inappropriate..but they knew I was still learning the language and therefore corrected me. Never made the mistake again..for those of you who speak German, the phrase was “Ich bin heiss” which is not something you should say to anyone, except maybe your husband. But the room I was in was rather warm, and I wanted to accounce my discomfort..
So anyway, I digress into German grammar, see what I have become?? haha
Backto SGM language – we used words and phrases, thoughts and ideas and “tossed them out” to see responses..over time, when no one corrected us, we adopted the ideas as solid, good, and so on. At the same time, we were always picking up new language to use..new terminology, buzz words, etc and we knew what these phrases and saying implied because we had heard them used time and again in context..so we figured it out. Thus begins the process of redefinition that makes SGM so famous (and much in behavior like a cult, since cults are also known for redefining terms (see the book Kingdom of the Cults for more explanation) therefore managing to gain more control over you by keeping you confused and deceived, thinking that the way you think is the same way they think, or in our case, the way the Bible teaches..you end up adopting ideas that are unbiblical and thinking it falls into the same category as “thus sayeth the Lord”)
That was very well put, Juli. Until I left, I didn’t realize how many “phrases” I was using were SG only. I had thought I was living out my faith in the marketplace, but after a while, no one in need of Jesus could even understand what my sentences meant.
Juli-they still use the title of apostle, only now it’s sort of a family secret.
http://sgmrefuge.com/2008/07/15/sgm-polity/
FF, “no one in need of Jesus could even understand what my sentences meant.”
I don’t know if to laugh or cry!
I refuse to believe that SGM churches promote missions, evangelism or outreach as the BIBLE defines it. The token “orphanage” in Mexico is so overused as their defense of “but we do missions!” – we all know what THAT “mission” is really like..
they don’t know HOW to relate to the “average” guy who could care less about who Piper or Spurgeon are because they are hungry, depressed, lonely, in prison, or some other area of need way beyond SGM’s capabilities.
SGMers should face it, SGM pastors aren’t equipped to deal with INTERNAL needs of the church as we have seen PROVEN time and again by the many stories (and these are just s sampling, we know there are more), much less the messier and uglier needs of the world. It’s beneath them, both in capability and in terms of their willingness. I’ve NEVER seen it modeled, it was ALWAYS about getting people into the church, THEN they would minister, and even then, I saw person after person leave, only because the people in the church didn’t know how to minister to them, and these poor people would end up taking off.
I don’t blame the individuals in the church, many of them truly reached out, but the problem was, the leadership was so preoccupied with getting all the SGM material into their heads, that they neglected to EQUIP the saints for the minstry they are called to by Jesus Himself. The equipping of the saints doesn’t mean open a library and educate people on the “right” books to read, convert them to calvinism, or make them a SGM junkie.
Sorry, I’m ranting. Where’s my soapbox?? Oh well. I started out commenting on your comment FF and this is where I ended up? haha
I read recently that politicians figure for every ONE person that takes the time to write them about an issue, there are 300 who feel the same way but don’t contact them. I’d say it is higher when it comes to spiritual abuse, because of the fact more people are in fear to speak up. So even if that lower figure is even close to being accurate, then there are MANY people who have been hurt or at least in disagreement with SGM practices/teachings.
But even at ONE church – Chesapeake, 1/4 of the congregation went AWOL in ONE week? That’s some bad news for SGM. Just wait, the numbers are going to crawl.
Jim – “secret” apostles?
Yeah, I remember reading someting about that in Acts. I’m sure it’s Biblical.
Jim, thanks for posting those. It must have taken loads of time, and I (we) certainly appreciate it. So much good stuff here.
I also had questions about the apostle thing. i tussled with one of my beloved students the other day. He said that the men on the apostolic team were not apostles. So are men on the pastor team not pastors? Are men on a baseball team not baseball players? Are members of the pigpen not wee piggies?
Silliness to the rest of Christendom.
A denomination jumps up and down, whining that they are a family of churches, not a denomination. But ‘denomination’ simply means they share a name and a commitment to their own beliefs and practices. I’m sorry, can someone argue why that is not so with SGM?
Silliness.
Members of the APOSTOLIC TEAM don’t want to be called apostles.
Silliness.
Words mean things. Look them up.
Listen RT-
Words mean what we tell you they mean.
Got it?
Aha–it has been four years since we escaped our abusive situation. I have breathed the free air too long. totally forgot.
Yessir. <sound of kool-aid being slurped?
As far as i know they are still called apostles – at least in their writing. While on the website they call them teh leadership team – they still sell their church polity book which was written 4 years ago, and I just read it last night and about half of the books is about why they are apostles, and what that means. Also in it is why they don’t beleive in equal elders but having a head senior pastor, which is interesting too.
Word has it from Chesapeake that Gene Emerson calls himself an apostle.
Regarding the head senior pastor being over the rest of the underling pastors: In my experience with the “staff” at our local SGM establishment, the senior pastor was more of an extension of upper management. The underlings went along with the senior pastor’s “vision.” Let’s be honest here; do we think for a moment that the underlings would stand up to the senior pastor when the underling’s whole vocational career was based on the senior pastor’s word to upper management? These poor men have their whole identities tied to this thing, and they aren’t about to rock the boat and jeopardize their families and vocational future. After all, differing from the “vision” and the “covering” over you shows pride and an independant spirit–heaven forbid. As we all know, violating one’s conscience long enough and the voices tend to go away!
RT said: “Silliness to the rest of Christendom.”
It seems to me that since CJ is amping up his ties to nationally known reformed teachers, they may take offense to his self-appointed “Apostleship”…and he knows this…he knows he looks silly to these truly learned and truly educated and truly deserving men …. but they aren’t so boastful as to self-appoint themselves “Apostles!” How silly he must appear to them.
Therefore, he takes away the term “Apostle” from printed literature to show that he ain’t a nut case….meanwhile….back at home…let the apostolic accolades flow!
opps – posted on wrong thread.
Remnant–that is an excellent point–this apostle thing may be preparation for continued respect in the world of big dogs.
remnant, good point. In fact, I remember reading somewhere that one of the T4G guys teased him about being an “apostle” – so maybe CJ took the hint, dopped the title..I think perhaps it was Mohler..but any of those guys could have givne their own views.
“apostolic covering” is the only thing charismatic about SGM these days, that and the reinvented prophetic mic and the contemporay worship..if a Presbyterian or Reformed Baptist, say, walked into an SGM service, they would likely mistake the frantic worship of the Church and the idols/pastors for a frenzied charismatic movement…they both look similarly shocking ya know.
I’m being kinda silly here..but I think you all get my point
I went to Sovreign grace Gilbert for a number of years. That church was great when I went there but gradually went downhill. I do not trust or respect CJ, I think that his “leadership” is deeply flawed, and this filters downward
SovGraceGilbert,
That is what I saw in the churches I was involved with. The control, focus on sin, etc., happened gradually. I do remember the early days being great (80′s).
SovGraceGilbert,
Welcome to the site!
Please use a valid email address when you post, so I don’t have to make requests such as “please use…” in public.
I’m the only one who sees the email address, and I only see it if I’m looking for it.
Thanks!