SGM, you can no longer act with immunity (or impunity 
). The church is watching. I’ve posted our stats below. Survivors stats are much higher. Please embrace humility and repent. “If we ignore them, they’ll just go away” is not going to happen.
June-44961
July-96240
August-118112
September-86394
October-50365
November-39847
December-51515
January-265116
February-112622 (first 14 days)
As your market share dropped in Corning (good job on that one, Aron), is dropping in Charlotte, and will surely decline in Chesapeake, you’re just seeing the beginning. As excellent marketers, I expect a change in strategies, which I addressed here. This will not be effective. You REALLY need to change the way you do business.
Praise God that He is waking up His body. God will not be mocked.
To CJ Mahaney:
1 Samuel 3:11-14 Then the Lord said to Samuel: “Behold, I will do something in Israel at which both ears of everyone who hears it will tingle. 12 In that day I will perform against Eli all that I have spoken concerning his house, from beginning to end. 13 For I have told him that I will judge his house forever for the iniquity which he knows, because his sons made themselves vile, and he did not restrain them. 14 And therefore I have sworn to the house of Eli that the iniquity of Eli’s house shall not be atoned for by sacrifice or offering forever.”
Hi Jim,
Remarkable!
Are these separate visits or page-views?
Did you get my e-mail on a church recommendation for next Sunday?
Taking Note-
Pageviews. 53561 uniques.
I haven’t received an email from you. When did you send it?
Feel free to resend-
jim@sgmrefuge.com
What is really helpful following a SGM crappy experience is NOT to try to find a “better church.” (IMHO) For us, a healing-time experience, away from the system of christianity, has been immensely helpful. For me, jumping into another church system following a “divorce” from a long standing relationship with one is like jumping into a dating relationship after losing or divorcing one’s spouse.
Jesus really is enough! After that becomes a real reality, entering into another church system relationship is less likely to pull you into the system’s mind set. Hey, no ax to grind; just sharing the gleanings from my crappy SGM experience
Anyone know what the “apostle” Gene Emerson is up to with the Chesapeake situation?
Jim,
I tried again on the e-mail.
Just a simple question. Thanks.
Jim,
Thanks for these stats. I have been an active participant on this blog for the last several weeks, and I want to make everyone a promise. I’m not going away; I’m here to stay!!!
LOL! You’re funny, Wanda!
Glad you’re here!
Gratefully Disillusioned, one of God’s saints,
You are right in that it is good not to jump to quickly into another church until you know your heart is truly following and hearing Jesus, first. It is like having a sabbatical.
Saint Jim (has a nice ring to it, doesn’t it Carole?
),
I had this feeling last week that SG leadership will have to stop ignoring the two blogs. Looking at the numbers for Jan., well, that is simply incredible. However, I think there is still a fight on our hands, as the leadership might come out swinging. What do you think? Am I being too cynical?
Simul Iustus et Peccator
Canary,
The word sabbatical really captures the truth of the de-tox process that has been our experience. Rushing back in because of the feeling of not belonging to something is a lie from the one who would have us give allegiance to anyone (leadership, coverings,or whatever they now call it) or anything. The truth is that we do belong because HE said so, and that is not based on where we happen to be at 10am on Sunday morning or what care group we happen to attend.
canary-
I expect newandimprovedmorehumblethanever pastors.
On the surface…
The flesh always reveals itself in its fruit. The Spirit always reveals itself by its fruit as well. When we live according to the flesh, the fruit will become visible. When we live according to the Spirit, that fruit becomes visible also. We can dress the flesh’s fruit up all we want, but the stench of the rot and decay will always give it away, won’t it? Life is in the Spirit, death in the flesh. One gives off the sense of death; the other gives off the sense of LIFE, His LIFE. IMHO, what is going on at Chesapeake, with its run away arrogance, smells like…well the works of the flesh, not biblical leadership. Smells too much like I’ll say and do anything to keep my job and position of “power.” Am I too, overly cynical?
You don’t think they will have to acknowledge these blogs? Aren’t we dangerous to their control of the saints they lead? Awell, I guess time will tell…
Gratefully Disillusoned,
My sainted friend, I don’t know if your are being overly cynical, because I ask myself the same question about myself. If one continues to hear the same-old-same-old, does that mean one is cynical to believe that it will continue in the future?
Good point about fruit. Words are really cheap, if one’s fruit is dying and falling off the vine. You can listen to the words being spoken, or simply glance at all the moldy, shrunken, and dried up fruit lying beneath the vine.
Canary,
I get the feeling that a more abstract thinker would pick up on that right away. 
Because i am a little “new” here, I am curious about your incredible picture of the cat in the cage and the canary freed, sitting on the top. Please fill in the gaps of my concrete mind-set.
I don’t think they will come out swinging, because their still sleeping.
“Simul iustus et peccator” = “At the same time righteous and a sinner”.
thanks for the translation-I knew I should’ve Latin….
Howdy!
I need some help.
I am stepping in to ask what a call to repentance will look like in word and deed?
I listened to the SGM Gilbert, AZ, Pastor on their website. So, when the Pastor asks for fogiveness from the whole church, should they have then gone into an open discussion as a group with Q and A? If there is not opportunity for immediate discussion, does this fall into a part of the “marketing” from last month?
Why would the Pastor name some groups of people and persons by name and not others by name? What if you don’t know what he is talking about? Why does he then put the burden on the listener to ask? Is this true repentance? Are the people being named, in the congregation, and are they the weak and the lowly ones affected? Or are the people being singled out, the ones with the ability to give financially to the church? Why be specific in naming anyone? I am having some trouble understanding this act of repentance on a Sunday morning.
What’s Biblical?
I have been “out of the blog loop” for several days – did something happen in Gilbert?
All I know is that I gets TONS of traffic from that area – always have, but it increased significantly lately – I figured something was going on.
Juli,
I’d say that some eyes are being opened there.
well, that much is obvious. I meant did a pastor step down from there as well? Do we have a count now for all the pastor moves this past year alone? Like I said before, someone should do a spreadsheet to keep up..
Stating the obvious is my specialty
I heard that there is an slow, steady trickle of families leaving the Gilbert church and has been for a few years now.
Lately, I believe there was at least one family who had been there for many years and who has a profession that would allow for ‘great’ giving who left. I believe they were very open about why they left, and not just the “i want a smaller/bigger church” explanation that doesn’t cause waves.
I also heard that their senior pastor, through tears, apologized to the congregation a couple weeks ago.
They have one pastor being elevated to Senior Pastor over the Denver church since the pastor from there “retired” suddenly without notice. And the current senior pastor of the Gilbert, AZ church is, how do we say it, well loved, by Steve Shank. It was enough for him to apologize, I suppose. He probably won’t suddenly become ‘convicted’ of ‘lack of gifting.’
Gratefully Disillusioned,
To answer your question of 2:08 pm, my family gave me the name “canary” when we were on the road travelling a few years back. It was my CB handle, as we had us a convoy! They chose the name, comparing me to when men take a caged canary down into the mines with them. If somehow the air became putrid and deadly, the canary would be the first to notice, and drop dead. That warned the miners to get top-side really fast.
Because I can be prophetic in nature, and sometimes “sniff” things out a little sooner than others, my sister gave me the handle. It just seemed appropriate to carry the name on to this blog. I use to have an gravatar of a tweety-bird in a boxing ring. Then, I decided I’ve morphed a bit since this blog started. The cat in the cage represents legalism to me. The canary capturing the cat is how God uses the weak things of the world to shame the wise (is that the correct phrase?). I love the cat’s expression, sorta like he is thinking, “What just happened?”
So that’s my story. I’m just a little tweety bird, not very big, not always brave, but ready to kick kitty butt when the Lord wants to use me.
Also, I remain anonymous because my husband has asked me to. Our leaving PDI/SGM was a terribly traumatic thing, and it took years for me to recover from it all. I guess he’s trying to protect me.
Cowboy,
Welcome to the site! I think you ask a good question. What does repentance look like in leadership? Alot of us saints here don’t know the answer, because we’ve never seen it. However, having closed meetings where the members are unable to speak or ask questions makes it hard to test the sincerity of any apology.
I remember my ex-pastor was a very savvy controller. I felt like he could charm us in to believing him. Then, while in the car driving home, my husband and I would look at each other, the “spell” having worn off, and ask “What just happened?” The leaders we had were good manipulators. It would certainly be easy for them to “manipulate” an apology.
Only God knows the heart. He did tell us how to recognize the truth. If something is bearing good fruit, it’s probably okay. If there are dead apples lying all over the ground, and no new fruit showing up, there is probably something wrong. So, even with an apology, we will have to wait to see what fruit is born.
Hope this helps a little.
Canary,
“Only God knows the heart” Amen.
I am trying to help a friend, who had that “What just happened here?” moment. I listened to this “sermon” from January 25th, and I don’t know what to tell my friend. It sounds odd to me that this is done on a Sunday, during a time of preaching and without warning.
I want to help my friend, so I am praying for wisdom.
Canary,
As for us we wereoverwhelmed with a SGM “church” which welcomed us like we were the most important people in the whole world. We were quickly whisked into a care group and drawn deeply into the system. Over the next three years, however, we slowly became aware of an increasing sense of something isn’t right here. Something is NOT authentic; there is too much of a push to become “one of them.” And those who don’t over time are marginalized and become merely projects for the drones of SG, those deeply indoctrinated from the trickle down system from CJ down through the system.
Thanks for sharing your story of the cat in the cage.
We felt the “shunning” after awhile when I turned down the “senior pastor’s” invite to attend a CG leader’s training class. It was downhill from there! As we look back, we are so thankful for that and other similar things, which woke us up. We quietly left SGM shortly after that, following the “spotlighting” tactic that SGM leadership uses on dissenter. The dissenter was my friend who actually had the nerve to confront the senior pastor, thinking the pastor actually welcomed others bringing issues up to him. Ha ha, didn’t quite work out that way, as most of you know.
Cowboy,
I see your predicament. I know there are other saints on this blog who will have some insight. I still believe that a meeting where members are not allowed to speak or ask questions smacks too much of control. That doesn’t even allow for the Pastor to receive any form of forgiveness from the congregation, like, say, a hug and an “I forgive you”, let alone for those in the dark to ask what in the world he is talking about.
Grateful Dis -
My husband was asked to lead a care group. He said yes, but was redirected by the Lord to go on a church plant instead. Our pastor was not pleased. He said he had plans for us. Hmmmm…anyway, we left that church, which we’d been a part of from the beginning, without a goodbye from the pastor or even acknowledgment that we were leaving. There were a couple of friends at our house on the day we left. It was really quite pitiful (at our last cg meeting, the group did wish us the best). Having this pastor treat us so coldly because we didn’t follow his plans was the first little light in our darkness. It still took us five more years before we put it all together and ran from PDI for our spiritual lives! The control became so blatant, the lack of love so obvious, that we knew we could not stay.
That was 1997. My husband and I enjoy our freedom in Christ, and are dedicated to Him. We talk very little about sin. My conscience tells me when I have made a “boo-boo”, and what to do about it. We talk about things like Jesus and His love, why Paul went to Rome when he was warned by a prophet that he would be put in jail, or how to recognize legalism in our own lives. There is always some discussion going on with my older kids about how to reach a friend for Christ, or how to react to the person in class who is on drugs, or even how to help another friend out of the legalism that has been preached to him all his life. We have another friend who has some “visitors” in his heart. So, we pray and talk about what to expect when those “visitors” are finally asked to leave, and Jesus moves in. THIS is life, real life in Christ. We are no longer in the lab, getting fat on all the teaching. We are out in the field, trying to be the fragrance of Christ to others.
Sorry this is so long. It is just so much more fulfilling to be out in the world, leaving our seeds where we can, instead of back in the building, confessing ANOTHER sin to some person we hardly know. If I only see myself as a sinner, then I am paralyzed. If I see myself as the saint that the New Test. says I am, I motivated, even in all my weakness, to get out there and serve our God!
Gratefully Disillusioned,
Welcome! Wow, does that story sound familiar. You said, “The dissenter was my friend who actually had the nerve to confront the senior pastor, thinking the pastor actually welcomed others bringing issues up to him.” That’s what we did! We believed that the teaching on giving and receiving correction went both ways. How utterly foolish we were. And we paid for it.
Howdy, Cowboy. You ask hard questions. I know for myself, when I repented to my children for embracing the parenting errors taught in PDI/SGM for far too long (over emphasis on their sinfulness and alarming lack of grace), it looked like this: When I realized that, though I thought I was “doing things right”, in reality I had hurt my children, I was undone. I spent quite awhile before the Lord in prayer and in the Word to gain a balance on the topic, so that once I repented, I wouldn’t repeat the same sins again and again. I really wanted to get to the root of the error. I discussed my need for repentance with my husband and together we planned an evening where I specifically listed the errors and sins in my parenting to my daughters. It was very emotional, as you can imagine. I wept and asked their forgiveness. I felt I needed to wash their feet to show the tender care that Jesus felt for each of them. I let them ask questions, make comments, and express any emotion. This process went on not just for that evening but for some weeks and months afterwards as they processed what I had shared and how it affected them. Overall, I found them to be extraordinarily gracious and forgiving. I believe the Lord set us on a good path that night as a family, and I will always be grateful to Him for that. Even now as I write, I shed tears of gratitude.
Please understand that I don’t see myself as any sort of shining example of repentance. But I LOVE my children. My reputation and desire to be right paled in comparison to my desire to be a good leader in my home for THEIR benefit.
Anyway, that’s what repentance looked like to me. I don’t expect all demonstrations of repentance to look exactly like mine, but I would hope that love for the wounded and desire to see and walk in the Truth, no matter how painful it is, would be the driving forces behind any public acknowledgement of sin and sincere repentance.
Canary,
Agreed, SGM is another sin-management system which always leads to condemnation or self-righteousness, depending on how sucsessful you think you are an any moment of your day. Since Jesus died for my sins when He took them ALL on Himself some 2000 years before I was born then my response should remain thank you my Savior, my King, my Priest, my Lord!
Gracie,
“We believed that the teaching on giving and receiving correction went both ways. How utterly foolish we were. And we paid for it.” What were you thinking?
Wonderful expression of repentance–thanks for your incredible demonstration which was rooted in love, as all Spitirual fruit is!!
Gracie, what a beautiful example of repentance!
Gracie,
Thanks for sharing what true repentance is like!
Gracie,
You are a caring and God honoring mother and wife. I can see this as a time of many days and nights to continue the dialog with your family. Thank you for your godly word picture!
My question is way over the edge for my thinking, as I am listenting online to a Pastor, who is repenting on a Sunday morning. Nobody is thinking that this is about to take place. Nobody has a clue what is on the pulpit agenda for the morning. I say this because the Pastor asks forgiveness from the “team” of pastors, which includes Steve Shank. Why is this done on a Sunday morning without prior communication? Is this an example of a shock value?
This is what I am trying to “unpack” for my friend. And my friend sees this as a precarious situation to go talk to the Senior Pastor and ”team”. It is unsettling and leaves many questions unanswered. Yet, the entire congregation is asked to respond and the Pastor says he recieves their forgiveness. How can this be so clearly understood and forgiven, when there is nothing mentioned other than not “leading well”?
Could this be an example of not leading well, again? I don’t want to put ideas in anyone’s mind, but I want to give my friend some help.
Cowboy,
I’m glad you’re here.
I’m asking more questions about the wild sgm west here
Jim, Cowboy
I just listened to the 16 minutes of the January 25th Gilbert Arizona message that was put forth as a time of confession and repentance by the young senior pastor.
My thoughts are varied both in content and importance, with a couple of side-observations to start off:
1. It’s been a little while since I was in the SGM world, so I had forgotten how so many of the young preachers in SG are increasingly adopting/impersonating (unconsciously?) the cadence, voice inflection, self-deprecating (yet very appealing?) chuckle, etc. of Josh Harris. Just an observation…nothing right or wrong about it necessarily.
2. Again, having been away from the SG world for a time, I was able to be astonished again at the cliche-saturation levels possible in SG communication. If all the driven-into-the-ground cliches, awkward repetition, and potentially self-congratulating (and humor-sprinkled) this-is-all-about-my-sin “humility” were removed from this portion of the message – the substance of what was said (vague and convoluted as it was) occupied but a minute or two.
3. More to the substance of the discussion here, this was a head-spinning confession. With all the dramatic build-up and profound air of a grave announcement of devastating failure, life-altering moral collapse, or arrogant abuse of power – the young man confessed…to not exercising his own leadership authority more boldly and shaping the church more clearly in the way he wanted it. Wow. His sins were listed as pride – for not listening to people telling him to boldly shape the church according to his own vision; fear of man for being afraid that boldly doing the things he wanted to do might fail and make him look bad; etc. It was disconcertingly reminiscent of countless SGM sermon illustrations/confessions woven with the skilled language of humility into so many messages. These confessional illustrations tend to have several things in common: 1.) They are a required and assigned component of the message prep (literally, in contexts I’ve observed), 2.) They are acclaimed as remarkable displays of self-disclosure and humility, even though they rarely reveal truly uncomfortable confessions, in fact 3.) They so predictably evoke a flood of fawning admiration for the unimaginable leadership humility displayed, that there is no practice in preaching/teaching that is (potentially) more indulging to an appetite for admiration and advancement than the clear and consistent SG-styled confessional illustration.
4. With astonishing (even if rambling and disjointed) skill the Gilbert pastor drove a stake into the ground on the senior-pastor (not plural leader) dominated vision philosophy of SGM and backhandedly offered an unfiltered apologetic for top-heavy, pyramid structured authority – all cloaked in the language of self-deprecating repentance, the assurance of his desperate need for everyone around him, and a rather mind-warping bit about “the priesthood of the believer” and narrowing the clergy-laity divide. All of this is either evidence of extraordinary internal, logical contradiction or of a masterful, scripted, and insidious design. For the sake of charity, I’ll choose to assume the former rather than the latter.
5. Conscious or not, these types of forceful, authoritarian declarations – cloaked in the impression of humility and approachable flexibility – exercise an overwhelming, passive-aggressive impact upon people and leave even the most thinking and courageous listeners paralyzed in the tongue-tying and mind-numbing logical contortions of what they have heard. How can you reply (to recount a technique that I remember hearing a number of times in my SG days) to a difficult, controversial, potentially unpopular leadership decision (without previous introduction or congregational input) being introduced with the words to this effect, “We have a wonderful announcement to share with you all this morning and we just know that you are going to love it. And let me thank you in advance for being such a joy to lead. We are so grateful as your pastors to know that you are going to partner with us so eagerly on the great path down which the Lord is about to take us…etc.”
Straight out of the power-salesman manuals.
The Gilbert AZ announcement/confession/directive leaves a conscientious, thinking member asking how he/she can possibly challenge the core ideas/decisions/methods of a situation when the decisions/intentions are announced in the form of confessing the sin of not doing what they wanted to do sooner, with the accompanying promise and assurance that they will humbly and accountably exercise and apply their will and authority more boldly in the future. So, please forgive me for not directing your lives more specifically in the past and I humbly plead with you to confront me if I do not shape the model of your lives more forcefully in the future.
All of this is systemic and a well-honed method of operation.
“What does repentance look like in leadership? Alot of us saints here don’t know the answer, because we’ve never seen it.”
a hahahahahahahahahhahah!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! thanks for the laughter and the smile. too true, too true
Taking Notes said, “Again, having been away from the SG world for a time, I was able to be astonished again at the cliche-saturation levels possible in SG communication. If all the driven-into-the-ground cliches, awkward repetition, and potentially self-congratulating (and humor-sprinkled) this-is-all-about-my-sin “humility” were removed from this portion of the message – the substance of what was said (vague and convoluted as it was) occupied but a minute or two.”
AMEN! In my last decade at my SGM church I remember thinking about the same thing. If they would just get their own junk out of the messages, what they had to say would only take a few minutes. If they would preach only what they had to say without the “humor” (i’d shoot myself if I had to hear another one of their humorous observations- I thought they were funny when I was a teenager but after years of the same schtick- yuck), then they’d be able to fill a 10 minute sermon with what they wnated to say (2 to 3 minutes worth) then they could spend the next 7 or 8 minutes actually teaching the word of God! (what a thought!)
I saw the whole sales technique back in the late 80′s/early 90′s. They haven’t changed…….
Hey Saints,
You know, the whole CO Springs area is pretty busy, and growing. Some speculate that, in the years to come, Denver and the Springs will meet. There are military, wealthy, middle class, and lots of people with very little, all mixed together. There are also plenty of churches in the area. So, I wonder why anyone would want to plant a church here. They could certainly reach many types of people, unless they “plant” in an affluent area. Isn’t that the norm? Just wondering.
Cowboy,
I was curious about your post referring to the Arizona church so I listened to the teaching from the sr pastor given in the Gilbert church on 1/25. I hear the gospel spoken. I hear the name of Jesus Christ lifted and proclaimed over and over. I hear a call to being genuine with actions, words and helping others. He gives support to a family serving in a parachurch ministry and members feeling free to go to bible studies. Talks about non pastors with gift of teaching being enabled to teach, that there is no clergy /laity split and believing in the priesthood of ALL believers. He is constantly speaking of the gospel, forgiveness and not being under condemnation. I hear humility and a good heart. Aren’t some of this the issues people have criticized and are praying for?
So in regards to Cowboys comment on 2/3 4:04…….I listened to the SGM Gilbert, AZ, Pastor on their website. So, when the Pastor asks for fogiveness from the whole church, should they have then gone into an open discussion as a group with Q and A? If there is not opportunity for immediate discussion, does this fall into a part of the “marketing” from last month?
I thought it was very clear in the teaching that if anyone did NOT understand what he was saying then or later, that they could come afterwards or later and ask questions or email him. He seemed very open to me. I wouldn’t think the Sunday morning service is a time for a Q and A.
Why would the Pastor name some groups of people and persons by name and not others by name? What if you don’t know what he is talking about? Why does he then put the burden on the listener to ask?
There was only one mans name spoken and it was a commendation and an apology for not trying harder to understand what he was saying. I don’t think any more information was needed.
also…
I am having some trouble understanding this act of repentance on a Sunday morning.
I think this pastor gave a good explanation at the beginning of the sermon that his study and teaching applied more to him and he felt convicted that the application was for him. Thank goodness it seems that the Holy Spirit is leading this pastor.
I wouldn’t approach it critically or read a lot into it that simply wasn’t there.
The link was hard to find so here it is:
http://www.sovgracechurch.com/blog/?p=909
Reading-
Welcome!
It could be that this pastor is under conviction. Let’s pray that is the case.
A high profile couple left the Gilbert sgc shortly before this public act of verbal repentance. Since this couple had been encouraged to shut down a study of Martyn Lloyd Jones’ Romans 6: The New Man, a book which is for sale in the Gilbert sgc, the timing seems a little odd.
What Scriptural principle leads you to think that an open Q & A is inappropriate during a Sunday morning service?
The sad thing is that this repentance was needed at all. However, let’s hope it spreads and that real change takes place. Time, and fruit, will tell.
I do have to add a question, which has been asked before. Why did this Gilbert pastor get to remain in his position? Why did someone like Keith Jacobs get shanked? Why is there, seemingly, such an inconsistancy on which pastor stays, even though he sinned towards the church, and which pastor goes? Some of the ones who have been shanked were not sinning, yet out they went. Some sin greatly, like the leaders who took the side of the pediphile instead of the victim, but they get to stay in their position, and the victim has to leave. I am soooooooooo confused by this.
I was not saying its unscriptural but that would not be my preference. I go to Sunday service to worship and not to attend a meeting with questions and answers. Especially if I brought a visitor which I often do. I prefer a service which is focused on Jesus Christ and not peoples sin. I thought the way he taught did that. I know NOTHING about their bible study on Romans 6 or who Keith Jacobs is so I can’t speak to that. I don’t think the pastor was confessing a horrible hidden sin , only that he has a desire to lead better and that God was showing him where he had failed in leading and how he could do better. I think he is sincere and I don’t lump every SGM pastor or church into the same mold. I’m not saying you did but several people commented earlier who didn’t seem have listened to the sermon or understand what it was about. I think it is hard to speak to what was said if one wasn’t there or didn’t listen to the service link. That would be the easiest thing to do. I did spend the time to do that before I commented.
Reading Posts, I just listened to the message, too. I have a few observations. But I have to get ready for a home group meeting right now. Here are a few things I jotted down that concerned me…
Above all, he wants to be worthy of emulation. He calls his congregants Gospel lovers. His sin is pride. He has many other sins. Jesus is aware of all of them. “He didn’t just say follow me, He forgave me.” I’m still soaking this all in, but I sense this man has been well trained and is following the convictions of SGM rather than what the Gospel really is. The constant humility, how undeserving we all are and how grateful for the cross. It all comes through within this sermon/confession. You can tell how he has fallen for the same false doctrine that is being taught at the Pastors College. I don’t consider any of this unfixable, but he has not yet had a face to face encounter with Jesus — one that will make all his heart-searching pale into nothingness. That’s what I pray these men will have. An encounter with the living God that takes their minds and renews them and gives them real hearts that beat with passion for God and compassion for a lost world. There’s more to say, but I’m out of time. I don’t think you know the catch phrases we all are accustomed to, so you have no way of seeing what we see. On the other hand, this man seems to be genuinely repentant. But the thing I don’t like is that he’s modeling that constant focus on sin. I don’t think he can help it, though. This is the focus of these churches. If that is not what you want, you really need to get out, people! It’s got the potential of ruining your love for your precious Savior.
(gotta run…)
Canary and Freedom Fighter,
I have to agree with Reading Posts here. It sounded like God was truly reachin ginto this man’s heart and he was RESPONDING! Which in my book , I praise God for. This pastor is way PRE-Joshua Harris time…this pastor “Grew up” in PDI. I do know this man, and no I do not go to the church. But I would say this…his confession of his eyes being opened… I want to stand up and clap for him! I believe he is really experiencing pain in his “blindness”, in his arrogance…he has begun to really “See teh light”. And there was nothing “big” to confess…lets not jump to conclusions here guys….that would be slander. In his message he talked about being convicted of not listening to people…isnt this what we have been screaming here on this blog…and yet this man saw it, confessed it and now we are going to pummel him for it?? I wish my pastor would have stood up and said atleast that…man would I have loved that. Atleast this pastor wants to see and is trying to see and is convicted. Lets not presume more than we KNOW. Again, we must tread this line carefully. And before any sweeping remarks are made about me…my story is full of pain, hurt, bitterness and anger too. I am not dis-illusioned. I just want to be very careful and these posts struck a nerve as this pastor, this man I respect and know…is one of the most compassionate men I have ever met. It is men like him that still give me hope that they will “wake up” SGM. Of course my hope originates in God…I just beleive he is on the short list that God can use already in SGM. Lets please pray for him that his eyes would continue to be opened and that he would be humble and compassionate as he trudges forward. I am not saying he is perfect…nor did he need his church crashing around him in order to feel conviction (i.e. Ches church). This man is simply responding to the Words of God and the conviction and love of the Savior. I just am clapping in my heart and full of hope for him.
And FF-you know I love you but the comment you made about him that he has not had a face to face encounter with jesus…ouch…dont you think that was very judgemental? do you know this man? have you talked to him? seriously girl…we gotta to talk about that one…you know I love you but i got to speak about that one.
journeygirltruth@hotmail.com
Mark of the Lion,
You said something that was confusing to me. In the beginning section of your comment, you said: ” I do know this man, and no I do not go to the church.”
Then, below, about 2/3 of the way through, I think you were still talking about Mr. Richardson at Gilbert, when you said “this man I respect and know…is one of the most compassionate men I have ever met. It is men like him that still give me hope that they will “wake up” SGM.”
If you’re talking about the same person in this comment, why did you say you don’t know him above and you do know him below? It’s late and my brain is tired…can you clarify?
I am in the Gilbert church and a very well respected couple (both in our church and in the community at large) left the church and sent out a letter to their friends the Wednesday before Rich’s confession explaining that they were leaving and why. From my understanding they had tried working with the pastor’s for years on some of their issues. It appears to have really shook a lot of people up. (It’s not everyday that one in SGM hears that their church isn’t perfect.) To add to that, there are two other families that I know of who have left our church in the last 2 months or so for somewhat similar reasons which could also be playing into concern among the members who remain.
Cowboy mentioned, “Nobody is thinking that this is about to take place. Nobody has a clue what is on the pulpit agenda for the morning. …Why is this done on a Sunday morning without prior communication? Is this an example of a shock value?”
All of the people that did receive the letter, although shocked to hear it addressed on Sunday morning, knew exactly why it was being addressed. While I’m always hopeful that change will take place, I’m skeptical. I don’t see how they will all of a sudden decide that they don’t need to control every thing that is taught and be ‘ok’ with members of the church getting together to study the Bible together w/out one of the select few that they approve overseeing it. I can think of several people who were asked to stop or not even start (for those that asked permission in advance).
For the person that mentioned that the pastors and leaders in SGM are deceived, I think that is spot on. I know Rich and many of the other pastors and their love for God and the people in our church is very evident. I have no doubt about that. But he has never experienced anything outside of SGM (at least as a teen or adult since I’m not quite sure how old he was when they started with SGM) and so what he thinks of as change or freedom isn’t what others would, hence the huge concern from those that received the letter.
I hope this clarifies a bit of what possibly/probably led up to the confession.
Hey Reading Posts -
I am under the impression that you have not been in a position to ask questions of a SGM Pastor. Is this correct? Asking questions in a large group is usually recieved with more of a demure and generally friendly conversation.
There is a style of leadership, that I have tried to help my friend walk with, because he can’t seem to have a “normal” conversation with a pastor.
When it comes to asking questions, there seems to be a method that is applied, and then the conversation becomes about his heart issues. Meanwhile, the leader goes into a “control” role. After several of these kind of encounters, my friend now sees a pattern.
If the congregation was informed ahead of time of this Pastor’s intent to confess that morning, there may have been less of the, “what is going on here?” and the shocking affect. There was no time to process what concerns were really being brought in a confession. Failing to lead because of fear of man, means what? What did my friend and his family miss? The church is sending two church planting teams at one time. Was this what the pastor was talking about?
This goes back to having some history with the leaders. That’s what I am trying to understand and be a means of counsel to my friend. People here, on Refuge, have some idea of this type of leadership. Would it be helpful to listen and not just take the whole sermon of 1/25, hook line and sinker? And keep studying the word! God will reveal himself in this time of “change”.
Watching Closely-
I think you hit it. The timing is certainly interesting.
What the couple did was completely appropriate, and possibly even fell short.
When one signs a membership covenant, they are making a covenant with the membership-not with the leaders. Far too often, when people resign from a sgc, they contact the leaders only, as if their membership agreement was with the pastors.
When one resigns from the assembly, they should resign to the assembly, not to the leaders.
It is my understanding that this couple sent the email to 50-60 friends. There is absolutely nothing wrong with this. Some of those friends sent the email to other friends. As can be expected, someone forwarded a copy to me.
While stating some disagreements in practice, the letter was not critical or divisive. These are matters in which reasonable brethren can agree to disagree agreeably.
Again, the timing of Rich’s confession was interesting.
This is Not Fun,
Let me clarify..sorry it was confusing. I meant to be clear that I know this man, but I do not go to the church. I have known him over 10 years but I am not a member of his church. The reason I posted is because I DO know him
. I have been apart of SGM for many years and have visited Phoenix often until 2 years ago. I always met up with he and his wife adn am still in contact with them today. Does that help? Let me know if you are still confused about what I said.
Mark of the Lion, are you using a different “name” on here? Your email looke familiar, just making sure of who you are – did you used to post under another name?
thanks for clarifying.
Jim, good point about the covenant being with the Body as a whole, and not the leadership only. Never thought about it before, but you are absolutely right.
Saints, Am I understanding correctly? This pastor gave his Sunday repentance after an email went out to 60 or so friends from the couple who left?
Mark of the Lion, I think it is very noble of you to defend your friend. None of us know his heart, only God. We cannot say his repentance was insincere, only that the timing is interesting. You see, it seems to be a pattern of control of SGM to forestall any divisions amongst the saints by showing humility only afterthey have been challenged publicly.
It’s like this: Bill Clinton only admitted to having sexual relations with that “woman”, Monica L., after there was proof of it – the blue dress. Noel’s pastors dealt with their own shortcomings after it was all made public. The same with Esther. My pastor, supposedly, went to our cg after we left and apologized on how badly they had handled everything. Then the group was disbanded. We never got that apology personally.
What I’m getting at is, the most valued thing in a controlling church is to keep control. No messes are allowed. Uniformity instead of unity, is what results from this sort of control. So, your friend’s “sins” were all ready revealed to a portion of the church by the leaving couple. That meant he had a mess to clean up before it got too bad. People questioning, arguing, challenging, leaving – the quickest way to put a stop to this is to repent publicly, not because you’ve seen your own sin first, but because it was told to some of the church all ready.
Again, I am not guessing at where your friend’s heart was. You obviously feel strongly that he was sincere. I can accept that because you know him. I just put this point out there - he is caught up in a system that controls others, where his very livelihood depends on doing it the SGM way. No pastor there has job security. It truly puts your friend in an awful position – no matter how sincere he is – he has to follow the SGM pattern of control (i.e. he repented of not leading the church where HE wanted it to go – what about where God wants it to go?) This is SGM speak.
The thing that disturbs me the most about this kind of a controlling leadership is that they don’t seem to be looking for what the Holy Spirit wants for the people. He is not nearly important to them as their own agendas. That’s how they raise their kids, too. CJ saying he wanted his girls to marry pastors left not alot of room for God to have a different idea. When my old church pretty much ousted the Holy Spirit’s moving in us, they took such iron-like control over the care groups that they were actually asking us to confess to specific sins, even if the Lord wasn’t dealing with us in that area at that time. We were majorally intimidated to get with the program. The final act was: Your vision obviously differs from ours. You are free to leave.”
If we, mere members, were not safe from the “my way or the highway” technique, imagine how it is for pastors who are encouraged to have large families, need a salary, and have no other job to count on? They MUST follow the SGM method or find themselves ousted. You can be a yes man, sin against your church, and not be fired. Not that your friend seemed to have any great sin to confess. But what about the pastor who hides child/wife abuse, and sides with the victim? His job is safe if he handles it the SGM way. Yet the members have no say when a beloved pastor is fired because of “lack of gifting”. Doesn’t this seem confusing to you?: It does to me.
I majorly respect how you are standing beside your friend. No one here, I believe, is challenging his heart, only the SGM method of putting out fires. We’ve all seen it before, personally. Now it is becoming a matter of public record. I predict that the coming days will see SGM putting out more fires as the cry for freedom from legalism begins to spread further amongst the saints there. Freedom to follow God before man, freedom to be directed personally by the Holy Spirit, to not have to turn to a mediator to understand the will of God. CJ once said that pastors “stand in the very stead of God”. My goodness, doesn’t he read his own bible? Anyway, I feel for the pastors that must rely on SGM for their provision. Even your friend. Peace to you.
I would add this scripture: Heb.7:28
canary, too right. “repentance” after being caught is at a minimum, questionable.
I’m not sure how the Holy Spirit works in other people’s lives, but IF I am praying, reading the Word, and listening for His voice because I am abiding in the Vine, then HE convinces me of sin, I confess, repent, etc. It doesn’t move much past that. And often times, when He prompts me to ask forgiveness from another person, I do, and then that person realizes it was GOD who showed me my sin, because they never said a word to me!
God is glorified greatly in this process. Now, sometimes I am confronted or rebuked, and then I at that point seek the Lord to show me. I’ve been accused of sin and not been in sin, I’ve also been “spoken peace to” with regard to my sin that the Lord already showed me!! For example, the Holy Spirit showed me personally I was an idolator, yet when I told this to my former SGM pastor, he didn’t “confirm” that. He never said “Oh, well then you should repent” because repentance for me was leaving the church. He didn’t want me to leave.
So even repentance, confession, etc all become twisted in SGM’s redefinition of Biblical terminology. It makes things confusing for those who truly desire to seek and please the Lord, but think that somehow submitting to their leaders unconditionally and turning a blind eye IS pleasing to the Lord! argh.
Canary,
Wow!!!!! Thanks for the big picture. Our problem as Christians too often is that we want to believe the best, which is a good thing. But we must look at all the pieces and not conclude that all is well in SGland just because we like one piece of the whole. The big picture stinks!!! When we honestly want to follow truth wherever it leads, for us, it was to run as fast as we could–and we did. We are so thankful–truly!
Thanks, Journey Girl! Yeah, I was running around getting snacks ready for home group and mis-spoke. That was inappropriate. What I intended to say was that he hasn’t yet had that supreme aha moment we all had when God did something within us that woke us up and shook us out of the whole “seek out my inner sin all day” thing. I just didn’t have time to say it the way I meant to. There is a light bulb moment — a face to face encounter — my husband and I had it when we were driving to church one day and began talking about how much we love our children and how God must love us that way, too. Then we realized we don’t discipline our children all day or think about their sins all the time. Then, AHA! The light came on for both of us right there in the car.
From this man’s terminology, it sounded like he was still pretty entrenched in the rhetoric. Maybe, though, that’s just the way he talks after all this time in the movement. But I don’t know him, am not in Arizona, and have no idea what “observations” his friends brought to him, so it’s hard to tell. Sounds encouraging, though, doesn’t it? And I REALLY liked what he said about it being okay to go to Bible studies. And that if he inadvertently made people feel they could not do that, he was sorry. That struck my heart like a bow on a cello string and resonated all evening. Great news!
Freedom FIgher,
You now what is sad, I WAS thinking about my son’s sin ALL DAY LONG! It got really bad, the legalism – I figured I had a right to do that and it was normal since that is what God did to me, or so I misunderstood.
It caused him to become increasingly angry (who wouldn’t be?) and me to become increasingly depressed. When I realized the grace of God towards ME, the spirit of legalism lifted, and I began receiving grace, and GIVING grace – to my son, to others. THAT is freedom.
The ironic thing? The WEAKER conscience is the one that lives by the law Paul said, and that more than once. Yet I (and many people in SGM, certainly many of the friends I hung out with in my own church and those I met from other SGM churches) assume that our lives are holier than others, our church holier, our music holier, our schooling methods holier, our dress, etc..we were on a level spiritually that other churches just could not attain to, simply because were were part of SGM…yet all the while, we were actually the ones with the weaker conscience, the immature believers! The irony, it cracks me up now to think of it.
The foolish think they are wise, but really they are just fools.
Grateful Dis,
I am so glad the Lord showed you the way to freedom. I am glad for His mercy in removing my family from such a controlling place. Yet, I feel for the pastors who must follow the party line or be ousted. Those who have served for ten years or more and then find themselves shanked, have to go out into the world to find a job. At what? That has to be a fearful thing for all the pastors, who don’t know from one month to the next if THEY will be next on the Shank list. Wow, it gives me shivers just to think of it. I wonder if, sooner or later, we will be ministering love to one of those pastors. I will be the first in line to offer big hugs and a welcome.
I’ll be behind Canary in that line. How beautiful it would be to offer the same love and comfort that God has given us, to the very people who, unwittingly, did so much damage to us.
meant to add: It would be like using what Satan meant for evil, and turning it around for good.
Canary,
I think that is how most of us here at The Refuge feel about everyone in SGM, including the leadership… most, if not all of us, would be in that line with you and Stunned! (You’d probably have to keep me and Stunned separated, though… she knows why… right, Stunned?)
What Happened in Gilbert, AZ, to prompt the message given on January 25? I listened to the Rich’s message and it sounds amazingly like Keith Breault’s message (they must have shared notes, or this is just standard opperating policy of SGM), at the Sunday Family Meeting in Chesapeake, January 25th, where he too asked forgiveness for much of the same. In fact, both messages were delivered the same day. This is very eerie and makes me feel like I’m living in an episode of Twilight Zone. In addition, is it true that Dave Bendinelli chose this same day to “Retire?” Wow, am I the only one who finds this creepy? What in the world is going on and why isn’t there more crying out from those in these churches?
I’m watching my door, waiting for Rod Serling.
I’ve often thought that my former pastor is going to get shanked soon. The pastor in training is still at the Pastor’s College right now…he is from the Frisco church also in Texas, which is Craig Cabannis’ church (the regional apostle). He graduates in May, then moves here. I think he has visited the church here a few times, but it was decided even before visitng that HE would be the next pastor..and he is not even from this area and never been here before. He was chosen by the apostle, big surprise. But if the apostle can convince the local pastor, he can convice the people, they won’t question things…
Please be praying..I really don’t want to see that another long-standing GIFTED pastor has been asked to step down by men, and not the Lord. Please pray the SR pastor here would have his eyes opened and he would not allow the new guy to come on board after all. That he would actually have the boldness and courage to say NO to Craig and SGM. That he would see he no longer has control of this church he began 27 years ago.
I’ve always hoped that perhaps this young man reads the blogs here. I know his name but won’t post it. I wonder if he knows how things work behind the scenes, removing pastors for young, inexperienced men (prone to pride as the Bible says) such as himself? The whole thing is horrific. I guess these young men are in such pride and deception that they don’t have a clue. It’s ironic that SGM leadership actually USES their pride as a means of manipulation, yet all the while maintaining they should remain humble. Exploit their sin and use it against them for your own benefit, then chastise and punish them for it later, when your desires have been fulfilled and have changed course.
Pawns. These young men are all pawns, not pastors. Someone should tell them.
Juli,
I have been frequenting these boards less and less, but caught your last post.
I just wrote a long, long note in response to your last post, and then I deleted it. The points I made have been made before, and to enter into a discussion based on what I wrote would continue to propogate an endless cycle of discussion that, frankly, is becoming tiresome.
With all due respect (and yes, we all deserve respect as human’s created after the image and likeness of God), I couldn’t disagree with you more over the content of your last post.
I would encourage you to pray for Craig, for the members of SGM churches, for the individual who will be laboring along side your former Pastor. Pawns? ALL Pawns? Really? Really? Is it really that black and white?
This is really, really sad. This is really, really not true.
LONG Sufferer,
I have been in a postion to counsel a buddy. I have since had the thought of the Twilight Zone! In fact, last night, I had a dream in which I woke up yellin’ “GET OUT”.
I am going to have some “one on one” with my bud this weekend. I am praying that we are hearing from God and there will be a sense of peace for the change for his family.
Whatever it looks like!
Cool Cucumber, why do they all use the exact same words and phrases? I’ve attended many different churches — Presbyterian ones, Lutheran, Methodist, Episcopal (theirs all involve recitation from the prayer book), and various nondenominational ones. There has never been such uniformity anywhere else I’ve visited or attended. It IS a little Twilight Zone-ish. Do you not see it?
I remember when we all had our children obey “quickly, cheerfully, and completely.” Then it wasn’t enough to say “Okay, Mom.” They now had to all say, “Yes, Mom,” because okay wasn’t full obedience. Each mom in the church seemed to have these kids running around the playground saying, “Yes, Mom!” I wonder who decides to use the terms “bringing an observation” and “graced with faith” and “Gospel-Driven?” And why such a rigid adherence to terminology? It isn’t sin, but it’s odd. I really love the diversity we see in church today. Racial, cultural, and choice of methods of schooling. Yeah, it’s a little rough around the edges sometimes, but so beautiful that God made us all just a little different from one another…
Cowboy,
You are a good friend to your friend!
Cool Cucumber,
I felt like a pawn in my situation in SGM. I wasn’t even in leadership. I see Juli’s point. There seems to be less loving attention about what is good for the person, with more attention placed on where he will be the most useful. Sometimes it does seem like leaders are moved around like pieces on a chessboard. The troubling thing is that these are real people. We can’t even be sure that the apostle type guys are listening to God, or moving these pieces of their own accord. I cannot say for sure, only read from my and others’ experiences, but I don’t think all the moves come from the guidance of the Holy Spirit. His voice seems to have been muffled along the way, like what He thinks isn’t given the importance that it deserves. This makes me sad. I was witness to it, having my husband be told as we left one church (by God’s leading) that the pastor was disappointed because he had “plans” for us (there was no mention of how he would miss us, no thanks for how we had served there for over 12 years). We messed up his agenda by leaving.
However, if you believe that Juli’s comment was too extreme, well, I know her and she has great passion for the Lord and His people. If she sees some of the leadership moves as pawns on a chessboard, she has her reasons. She is close to the situation she spoke of, and we’ve all heard of similar happenings – young dudes with 9 months PC under their belts replacing men who’ve been serving as pastors for years. It is puzzling. Can anyone honestly say that a young man with less than a year of training can watch over the sheep better than an older man who began his church 27 years ago? Unless he is ready to retire, this move, if it happens, is an oddity that causes me to scratch my tweety head.
Sometimes, people who disagree with us read more into our posts, mostly evil motives, than is there. If someone like, say Stein, comes on and interprets someone’s opinion as meaning more than it does, yet begins his post on another thread that he has a job, life, and family, it would be easy to interpret this as: while you lazy bums don’t, and have nothing better to do than post all day. He does come across condescendingly, and others have told him. Yet, he denies that. Are we all wrong? Are his words intended to insult us? I hope not. But they do.
Knowing Juli, she will never want to insult anyone on purpose. So, I’m standing up for my friend because I understand that her motives are not to go out and slam anyone. The truth is, some of us see this, and have experienced it. We are sorry if that offends what you see as the truth. You have had a different experience, hopefully better than ours. We accept that. That doesn’t mean that Juli’s opinion of her experience was wrong. Thanks for listening.
Cucumber,
I certainly respect your right to disagree. Of course my own concerns stem from my own personal concerns – that much is clear. I do pray for Craig, for this young man, and for the many young men at PC right now. I have no hard feelings toward this young man, I only wonder what he has been told, does he know about the many other displacements this past year alone, by men similar to himself?
I am concerned that the actions by the outside (i.e. Craig) with regard to my own former church are upsetting to me. Aside from the fact that the current pastor has implied he will someday retire, at 58, he is far young enough to continue on if the Lord should allow and call him to. Nobody is displeased with his “service” and love him dearly, as do I. When I read of these other men, David B, the Aurora pastor, the San Diego pastor, I can’t HELP but thinking, Is my former pastor next?
So whether you agree with me or not about them being pawns in the hands of apostles and upper-leadership, you certainly can see a pattern. How much “say” do these men have in where they are sent? Where they are “called”? It is clearly at the discretion of the apostles. I do believe these oyung men feel they are following the Lord in this submission to and deferment to the apostles’ wisdom and discernment, but just how wise and discerning are these apostles? Surely they make mistakes, and surely the individual men called to pastor should have more input into their own ministerial futures.
That is my concern, for these young men called to be pastors, and for those in place already, whose jobs are at stake simply to “make room” it seems for these other men. Is that how it should be done? Something tells me no. There is a better way.
By the way, good to “see” you again on here…hope you are still finding yourself to be as cool as a cucumber, as you first explained!
I forgot to add..my former pastor in no way think that he was under the control of the apostle or SGM when the decision was made to allow this young, unknown man from the sister church to be the pastor in training. I found this extremely odd, in that at least two men that I know of who were in the church (already) who had expressed their own desire to minister full time, in various capacities. These men were overlooked for the man from another church. I’m not saying they were ignored, but merely put in their place. One never even speaks of the desire he once had to minister full time in the church. I honestly don’t know what became of that. It simply “disappeared” it seems.
There are certainly very gifted and passionate men in the church right now who couldhave been raised up to attend the PC. Why the outside man? Why a man from the apostle’s church? That is my point. It seems when Paul instructed Timothy to oversee the church he was in, that the men in leadership came from within, not without. They were KNOWN to the local Body there. How else could they be tested and then placed in leadership if they were unknown?
I’m sure this young man was “tested” and then placed, and he is well known by his own pastor (the apostle) and leadership there. The problem is, the decision was made BEFORE anyone here knew him. They have only met him socially a few times, he’s preached there at least once, and that is it.
It seems the local Body here is asked to trust the judgment of a man 5 hours away to confirm the gifting and calling of the man to be the pastor here. That doesn’t make sense to me. This man was not tested in the true sense of Scripture – within the Body he would eventually be leading.
I know, this goes back to the SGM model of polity, vs congregational rule, etc. But I guess so many things which I disagree with about SGM leadership, practices, etc actually do stem from that same tree of thought. If you agree with the model, this does not seem strange to you. I know many churches practice this type of leadership placement ALL the time: Episcopol, Methodist, Catholic churches..I just don’t agree it is Biblical.
Juli,
What makes it difficult and even odd for the members is that, all at once, they are expected to obey these new leaders, and confess sins to someone who is a complete stranger. I remember when we relocated on a church plant that I was expected to tell my faults, etc. to our CG wife, whom I did not know. It felt odd, but I didn’t understand at the time, why. Now I see that it isn’t “normal” to trust a stranger that much just because some men we don’t know well, tell us to.
So, putting a pastor into a church whom no one knows, but who everyone is expected to obey and follow, is odd, at best.
I’m confused about the whole premise. You are expected to obey the pastors? They are not your parents or your God. Jesus set the example of servant leadership when he washed his disciples’ feet. They were to go into all the world and preach the Good News to all nations, not to make people obey them. When push came to shove, they were to serve, to abase themselves. Not to be served.
Freedom Fighter,
EXACTLY. That is SGM polity, though. If leaders stand in the very stead of God, then they know better for your life than you do. People have been known to ask permission to move, to go into missions (which was refused), to leave (the response was, I’m sorry but your are not in a good place to decide that for yourself), to marry, to have a party – my ex- pastor decided that anyone who wanted to throw a party had to submit a request to the church office (if the party included more than 4-5 people). He would then check his calendar see if anyone else had planned a party on the same day (like Christmas). His reasons? So that people in the church who might be invited to both wouldn’t have to decide between which invite to accept. No kidding, my Christmas party request was denied because another party was all ready planned by someone else. I don’t even think they were on the same day! Bizzare, but true. Leaders are to be obeyed. They even test whether you will follow them without question, if you are being considered for leadership. I am not exaggerating our experience. We left in 1997, but nothing seems to have changed, if you believe all the posts on this blog. Sad.
Freedom Fighter-
This is SGM 101. Leaders are to be obeyed. The job of the “sheep” is to submit, and to ensure that they are a “joy to pastor”.
Hebrews 13:17 The first word translated “obey” in this verse is not the Greek word hupakouo; it is peitho! So, it doesn’t mean to blindly obey and submit; rather it means to be willing to listen, to be willing to be persuaded or convinced by them because of their exemplary lives and sound teaching, BUT NEVER to go against your conscience or direct revelation of the Spirit or the written Word.
It never ceases to amaze me that we take a scripture or two and make a doctrine out of them and totally ignore how it fits into the whole-incredible. If it wasn’t so sad, I would say that some of us deserve to be under the little “popes” that insist on our blind obedience. The sheparding movement still exists in SGM, doesn’t it–so very sad!
Gratefully-
You are absolutely right. Funny, the SGM pastor who helped in the adoption of my former sgc taught this.
Perhaps it would be good for CJ to state this, and for it to be taught at the PC.
Jim,
Because power and control are sooooooooo intoxicating, I have little hope. Once that model is in place, change is very difficult.
What did the “apostle” Gene say at the Chesapeake meeting, “…change in the SGM model is no more likely than them changing the Bible?” To be fair, I wasn’t at the meeting, but I did read that thought (paraphrase) stated by Gene Emerson, indicating that He had ZERO intention of changing how the Chesapeake church did “business.”
I can just wonder how flexible the elite power brokers would become if their consumer base would not show up to do “church” this Sunday morning? I have little hope on that account as well.
I know, I know, some of what I said sounds cynical, BUT what has happened to the business of “church” today makes me sick to the stomach. We have our multi-million dollar buildings, our staff of “pastors,” offices, computers, parking lots, classrooms, office supplies and office staffs but are powerless, connected to the state with our non profit exemption, which gives the state control over certain topics. But as long as revenue flows, all is well, and we have the feeling that God is blessing all that we do. I really am sorry if some of that sounds direct and a little negative, BUT I happen to love the Church, the bride of Christ, and what we’ve allowed to happen is deplorable.
I think of Ester, Noel, and countless others, many who we haven’t even heard from but are being crushed. How about some of the SG “pastors” that have been “Shanked” because of others more “gifted?” How about “pastors” who feel compelled to go along with it all because they have bought into this whole thing to the point of feeling that they have gone beyond the point of no return: Their identity, their vocation, their families, their incomes are all tied to SGM. So they feel pressured to dance to the tune and trying to make a difference but get sucked further into the machine of religion. Breaks my heart!!!
I wish PK was here to comment more on the polity influences again – it truly is a fundamental problem in SGM – one that will likely never change.
I was thinking, say things did change when it came to how leaders actually led – there was no shepherding – then things like what books to read, whether or not to homeschool, etc would not be such an issue.
Now, I do think you will ALWAYS have people in all churches with more fear of man than fear of God. Even pastors and leaders how don’t lord over or “shepherd” like SGM leaders do can still be worshiped and idolized..it happens all the time.
but in that case, I do think it is more rare, more easily noticed by others (because the leaders don’t encourage it or foster an environment that does) That brings me to in my opinion, second biggest problem in SGM: over-emphasis on indwelling sin.
I don’t know – I’ve been thinking lately, did my pastors EVER point me to Jesus? When I told my former Sr pastor that somehow, in three years of being “at the Cross” I somehow missed Jesus. I couldn’t figure it out. He had no response. Could it be nobody ever truly pointed me to Him? They pointed me to books, man, leaders, SGM, how to mortify my sin (gee, thanks John Owen, brilliant ideas, NOT!) etc. but never Jesus. Never grace. Never faith. Never the Spirit of God. Was it their responsibility as leaders? Yes. Was it my responsibility as well to learn these things in God’s Word myself? Yes.
here’s the thing, they did point me to Jesus, in a sense. Jesus on the Cross – dying for my sins, Jesus on the Cross – because I am so wicked at heart. He never came off that Cross! It was always made to feel PRESENT TENSE, not past tense. So much for the finished work of Christ. I would feel the guilt and crushing shame every single Sunday morning. As a result, I slowly slipped into a legalistic lifestyle – I so desperately was convinced I could never please my Father because I was so wicked, since Jesus was hanging on that Cross, and I am a wretched wicked sinner, and what hope is there? So I worked – not for my salvation in my own thinking, but for my sancitifcation – I did things to please man, to please the Lord, and all the while losing my joy and dying spiritually, completely disconnected to God’s grace. But I have to ask now – if one is working for their sanctification, as I was, no wonder Paul called it another gospel – having begun in the Spirit, being perfected in the flesh. So to answer the many comments that SGM preaches the gospel, and this blog hinders it – I strongly disagree. This blog has the complete and total gospel – SGM only presents HALF the story of the gospel, and the result leaves many people in bondage and falling short of God’s grace..the irony. Sovereign Grace. Gives a whole new meaning to it.
This is a dangerous cycle in SGM (and legalistic churches) where the focus is on indwelling sin constantly. So to say it isn’t important is unwise and foolish. It is important to discuss this focus of SGM and point it out to them as well. Will they listen? Who knows. But we will share our testimonies and end the silence because the silence is where the battle is lost, and by the truth is how the victory comes..
I’d like to clear up a couple of additional things regarding the Gilbert situation. I have listened to Rich’s message, and while I have many opinions, I will try hard to stick to what I believe is factual.
Yes, the letter that went out was from a “high profile” couple, although they would likely not be comfortable with that term. They are a humble couple, leaders in the homeschool community, and wise in the Word. The letter went out just a few days prior to the message. I had a feeling the letter would be addressed in some way during the Sunday meeting, because there was damage control to be done. As I listened to the message two things were glaringly obvious to me. 1. Rich was taking great strides to combat some of the “issues” that have been recently circulating throughout the church and on the blogs and it was extremely evident to me that his “confession” was carefully crafted. 2. It was also evident to me that his “confession” was spoken in a way that if my eyes were not already opened to this, I would have been one of the first ones to stand and applaud him in the end. I was saddened by this because I feel that there are many within the Gilbert congregation who were beginning to question some things and I knew that after his “message” Sunday, there was strong potential for them to be sucked right back in.
The members that he publicly commended for supporting a parachurch organization (Joni and Friends) have been supporting that organization for years and years and have been members of the Gilbert church from the earliest stages. They have never been publicly commended for there involvement with Joni and Friends ever before Sunday. It was as if their names were pulled out of the community outreach file to be held up as the shining example of “look at how we as a church support this kind of thing”. There are only a couple of other families within the church that are also heavily involved in parachurch organizations, and I can tell you with certainty, that they are not “hailed” for it and any way.
The man who was publicly apologized to by Rich is a Care Group Leader. I have no strongly formulated opinions on whether his financial contributions to the church had anything at all to do with him being chosen as the recipient of the apology, but regardless, he is one of the wealthiest men in the church. Possibly the wealthiest. I mean him no disrespect at all by sharing that, because from my understanding he is also a man worthy of great respect and honor. I assume (and I know I said I would try to stick to the facts) that the things he brought to Rich’s attention were legitimate and sincere appeals regarding Rich’s sin. I have no trouble believing that he was sincerely owed an apology from Rich, however I am not sure that a public forum was the best place for it.
Then there is also the confusing issue of, “Who really does lead the Gilbert church?” Yes, Rich is the senior pastor. However, the church is definitely “lead” by Glynn Mackenzie. I would be quite surprised if anyone within the Gilbert church would argue with that. Glynn is the pastor who will be leaving to go save the Denver church from self-destruction. I pray for the Denver church, they can’t possibly conceive of what is to come.
There has been a proverbial verbal and emotional slaughtering of many families within the Gilbert church, and all at the hands of pastors other than Rich. He is one of the last ones (here I go being opinionated again) who should have been standing up there apologizing that Sunday.
It was mentioned in one of the earlier posts that Rich seemed to be in Steve Shank’s good favor. That would be true. Rich really is a good guy. He’s a very likable guy and I do believe, fully, that he has been sucked into the system. He is a very young pastor, 35 years old. He’s been the senior pastor there, I believe since he was 29. He came in under tremendous accolades, which ironically SGM is so infamous for. They puff you up to HUGE proportions, but then they knock you down when you show the least bit of pride. When he arrived on the scene after working under Craig Cabaniss for a while, his own father, Trey Richardson, stepped down from his role as the “temporary” senior pastor in order for Rich to step up to the “calling that God has clearly placed on his life”. I tell you all of this only so you have an idea of the age of this pastor. His age was not a negative in his pastoring or preaching at all, however, I believe it to have been a major influence on how easily he has been “lead” by the other, older pastors in the Gilbert church. There are two particularly controlling pastors within the Gilbert church, one being Glynn and the other Trey, and both of them absolutely carry more influence over the “culture” of the church than does Rich. Their pastoring styles are vastly different, Glynn being overtly controlling, and somehow respected for it. Trey being subtley controlling and the one who people tend to flee to if they are weary of Glynn.
There was also an earlier comment referencing that there have been two other families who have recently left prior to the high-profile couple leaving. There have actually been several other families who have left, possibly a little more under the radar, over the past year or so. However, these two particular families did indeed leave for the same reasons. I know both families and they are steadfast in their love for the Lord, but their departures did not cause the uprising that the other family’s departure did, I believe for several reasons. One, their letters were sent to fewer people. Two, their families were very, very close which seems to have led to speculation that one family may have influenced the other, although I know them both and that is absolutely not the case. Three, both families had been “pulling away” for quite a while as their eyes have been slowly opening for a long time, but was being seen by most as sin on their parts for lack of involvement. And four, they were easier to dismiss as leaving for “wrong” or “sinful” reasons than the other family who was very well respected, and rightfully so, they are also a wonderful family. All three families have already received a fair amount of “correction” from well meaning friends and for all three families the shunning process has begun.
The message Rich gave was damage control. The high-profile couple’s letter going out to such a large group dictated the necessity of a public “hearing” of sorts. There was no other option than for the pastoral staff to use the public forum of the Sunday meeting to address what they saw as the most immediately divisive and controversial issues brought up in “The Letter”.
I apologize for the length of this post. There is much more to say, but I am realizing how lengthy this has become.
“most, if not all of us, would be in that line with you and Stunned! (You’d probably have to keep me and Stunned separated, though… she knows why… right, Stunned?) ”
Carole, I’m guessing it has something to do with us possibly peeing ourselves laughing at each other’s jokes? (I mean, we’ve both given birth, right?)
Be Bold wrote: The message Rich gave was damage control. The high-profile couple’s letter going out to such a large group dictated the necessity of a public “hearing” of sorts. There was no other option than for the pastoral staff to use the public forum of the Sunday meeting to address what they saw as the most immediately divisive and controversial issues brought up in “The Letter”.
Me: SGM seems to do alot of damage control – send up the most likeable pastor to do the deed. The second word in damage control is CONTROL – sgm is famous for that one! Look at the Chesapeake church and their damage control “family meeting” – they brought back the most well liked pastor (EH) from his indoctrination at PC to stand up with the other pastors. I know why EH is well liked (and for good reason, too bad he’s drank too much of thee kool-aid!) CONTROL. I didn’t listen to the message, so I am thankful for the summaries (I couldn’t listen to it without being overly cynical, so thanks for the posts that are much better than how I would have address what they said).
The thing that really gets me is how the member that brings home the most cash gets the personal appology. The pastors know exactly how much the man gives to the church (don’t anyone beleive for a minute that they don’t), so assume he is tithing 10% of his gross income (as shank is the “apostle” and shank as taught that it must be 10% of the gross and not the net, and it is all income, not just a base salary), assume he makes 500k per year (just a guess, I have no idea how much this person makes) – he’s giving 50k per year to the church. Say he takes in a million a year (salary, investments, bonuses, etc), then he’s giving 100k per year. That’s a pretty good chunk of the church budget. Say the church has a 2 million a year budget, that’s 5% of the budget from one source (using the 1 mil figure)- the are going to protect that source.
Interesting thoughts…..
Be Bold, not sure if you have posted before, but if so and I missed you, I apologize..if this is your first post then I wanted to say welcome to the Refuge!
Thank you for sharing your thoughts and some facts about the Gilbert church (I think you did a good job to stay on topic and focused with little personal commentary, well done!)
I’ve been praying for many in that church since last fall, when I began to get emails from many of the members (ladies of course). I am so thrilled to see the Lord is yet again revealing truth. Have we ever seen anything like this before? To me this is astounding that in less than one year, there are (and these are just the ones I personally know of) So I’m going ot recap just the few things…please add to it anyone, if I got something wrong..
1) Sr pastor stepped down/removed from Aurora, CO church last summer after Shank visits, congregation surprised.
2) Sr Pastor stepped down/removed from San Diego church last Fall after Shank visit, congregation surprised.
3) problems in Fairfax church as a result of Noels’ story begins December 2008 as a result of the blog and pressure put on leadership to answer – no change in leadership, no repentance on the part of leaders involved.
4) major upheaveal over Esther’s story – pastors asked to step down in Chesapeake church, they refuse, “apologize” and church begins to split. No change in leadership.
5) church plants planned for Colorado canceled by Gilbert church, the congregation is surprised.
6) SR pastor of Aurora, CO church steps down after Shank visit, congregation surprised.
7) upheaval and problems in Gilbert church, letters circulated, public “apology” no removal of pastors, no change in leadership.
I think I see a pattern here. Besides Shank being the hatchet man…when the BODY brings the accusation against the leader, they are ignored and nothing changes except for damage control and some manipulative apologies… But when SHANK, or SGM leadership brings the accusation, these men crumble, repent, apologize, etc….that is insane. But in keeping with the control and manipulation. They feel they don’t need to be accountable to the sheep, but they better obey the shepherds over them of they will lose their jobs. You can see from this pattern who is serving who. ANd God isn’t in the picture.
does anyone else think this is normal practice for the Body of Christ? The Body is sick, we are all suffering as a result, and I’m thinking some “part” should get amputated for the good of the rest of the Body. Problem is, the part that needs to get amputated is the same part holding the knife, er, the shank.
Be Bold-welcome, and thank you for posting.
Thank you helping us connect some dots.
I agree with your assessment.
Jim, actually, on my list above, #1 is Aurora, #6 should be Denver church…two different churches in the Denver area, but the first was the Aurora church (South Denver) more recently was David B at the Westminster (North Denver) church right?
Juli-
Correct-although I think David B in Westminster got off easy. He should have been shanked, and in a much stronger manner.
Well, it is odd…if the apostle (or Shank) comes in, the reasons are given about the lack of gifting etc. We’ve seen this at least three times now (in the last year alone) but if the Body brings many complaints, it seems different.
Perhaps in the case of David B it was a combination of behind the scenes complaints as well as whatever it is that apostles deem as “lack of gifting” – his case seemed to have combined the two instances (valid complaints, AND lack of gifting) does that make sense?
I’m wondering about the displaced pastor from the Aurora church, what was his name? He was moved to the Westminster church and now that pastor has stepped down. Wonder what is going through HIS mind about now..
Juli – sounds like you have your facts correct – it all points to another common them that changed your heart to leave sgm – idolatry. Not only do the member have sgm leaders as idols, but the actions of sgm leaders (cj, “apostles” including shank, pastors, cgl’s) condone and encourge the idolatry.
If it wasn’t for these blogs, all of what happened would just be swept under the carpet and hidden. sgm has a LONG history of doing the same thing – look at Ohioan’s story on the other thread, the church split in AZ back in the 80′s, the other church splits among sgm. The leadership’s answers tends to be “people where in sin” and then they slander the folks they have hurt (see Noel’s story, saying her husband has a problem with “lying” because one time at church he was asked how he was and he said “fine” and the pastors, in their “infinate wisdom” where some how able to “decern” that he wasn’t “fine” and quickly wrote it down in his file). A newer tactic seems to be the “apology”, thanks to the blogs. The sgm faithful who eyes haven’t been opened yet eat it up (see stein, billy, etc comments).
The idolatry seems to be a key – the sgm faithful wouldn’t eat it up so quickly (and I am not referring to those who have been shown the truth) if idolatry wasn;t so prevelant. In my younger days, I used to refer to the phenomonon as “pastor said it, it must be true, I believe it – baaaaa, baaaaa, baaaaaa”. Idolatry is a huge issue and the leadership promotes by their actions.
Freedom,
Funny, my husband and I used the baaa,baaa,baaa after we left. We had been sheep following blindly after a few false shepherds. I do have to add that we learned many good things during our17 years in PDI/SGM. However, the scripture on the leaven fermenting the whole lump of dough turned out to be so true. It isn’t enough to have some good teaching, when that leaven sits there in the back room, growing and growing. By the time we realized what was going on, the whole church was covered in yeast.
Be Bold,
I am so thankful you posted your view. I wonder, would it be too provacative to ask you to send Jim the letter that started the process of the Gilbert church
repentance Sunday? I can understand if you think it is the wrong move. Welcome to the blog!
I’ve created a new main post, which includes Be Bold’s comment.
canary-I have the email, as it has been forwarded many times. I haven’t received the author’s permission to post it.