January 13, 2009
A “get well” plan for our church, SGC
• Come to Chesapeake and interview the many victims including the three couples who came to the pastors.
• Interview and evaluate the pastors as well as Gene Emerson (for his lack of oversight and his involvement in the Dec. 20th meeting).
• Present to the entire membership the events of the last few months including the events that led up to the Dec. 20th meeting, allowing the three couples to read their letter summarizing the events from their perspective.
• Present the list of concerns that the three couples brought forward on Nov. 9th and Dec. 16th and discuss these with the membership.
• Repentance to and restoration of the names and character of the three couples by Gene Emerson and the pastors.
• Remove the three pastors who have brought reproach; based on the most recent Foundations Manual from SGC, pages 73-78, these pastors have failed in every area listed:
The definition of overseer/bishop, pastor, and elder (Page 73)
Characteristics of a pastor/elder (page 74)
A model for the church (page 74)
A blessing to the church (page 74)
Recognized by the church (Page 75)
The role of a pastor/elder (page 75)
Nourish the church (page 76)
Equip the church (page 76)
Protect the church (page 76)
Shepherd the church (page 77)
Serve the church (page 78)
• Move Beyond the Cross in the teaching in our church. A renewed focus on the resurrection of Jesus Christ is greatly needed to bring forth redemption, hope and victory over sin.
• Also, a renewed focus on the ministry of the Holy Spirit would enable people to walk forth in the fullness of the Gospel, empowering them to put sin to death and to walk in victory.
• Begin teaching the entire Bible. We do have an enemy of God, Satan, who is trying to destroy the Church. By teaching the people that sin is our only enemy, you have left them vulnerable at best.
• Announce publically when changes in doctrine have been and are being made.
• Establish relationships with other churches and Christ-centered organizations within the local community.
• Involve members in more ministry and leadership opportunities.
• Treat women as true sisters in Christ identifying and acknowledging their giftings to be used within the body.
• Establish elected elders to operate within an accountability system for the pastors.
• Set up an internal grievance authority (internal affairs) within SGM that has direct access to CJ and the Apostolic Team.
• Establish a “member concerns” hotline (ethics hotline).
• Conduct an outside audit of doctrine and practices within the church and SGM by an organization that is not materially affiliated with SGM.
• Place professional counselors on church staffs (salaries paid by SGM not the local church); a definite problem has been identified in SGC Chesapeake in the area of counseling. These pastors have proven that they are not equipped to counsel and handle serious issues involving people’s lives. Sins of a sexual nature in which there has been a criminal act MUST be reported to civil authorities and handled by professionals outside the church.
• Conduct open microphone Q&A sessions at the end of all family meetings.
• Establish a fixed percentage of tithe that would go to benevolence in the annual budget.
• Lengthen the term of the Pastor’s College.
• Conduct a baseline survey of the entire SGC membership concerning the health of SGC.
January 28th, 2009 at 9:39 am
Great ideas, Scott and Connie. It is quite evident that the pastors in our former church are simply not equipped to deal with ANY of the issues they’ve seen: physical and sexual abuse, drug and alcohol abuse, and ANY marital problem.
People need to be led to work through these things by professionals, not some PC graduate pastorboy that’s been told he is now qualified to counsel people in these things. The one-question interrogations of the victims for hours on end need to stop pronto. Hopefully it does.
January 28th, 2009 at 10:09 am
Scott and Connie–once again it is evident and obvious that your hearts are in the right place, that you have a sincere and godly concern for the church body. Thank you for your courage to be transparent and present the whole truth to the church at large (not just the SGCC).
I was wondering if anything was ever addressed at the jan. 25th meeting about the rude way the two care group leaders were “relieved” of their CG leadership?
January 28th, 2009 at 10:11 am
Scott and Connie, I’m blown away by your boldness and courage. You have many great suggestions on your list, some of your concerns are almost identical to the ones we stated to our pastors when we decided to leave (we had 3 main ones at the time, though now we are able to see the issues much more clearly).
At point “move beyond the Cross” all I could hear in my head was C.J. screaming like a maniac “WE WILL NEVER MOVE BEYOND THE CROSS!!!!!” I think that pretty much sums it up doesn’t it? I have an appreciation and understanding of the Cross like never before in my life (and some of that I owe to SGM and C.J.), but the power of the Cross was lost on me until I believed the truth that the same power the raised Jesus from the dead lives in me! I am alive, not called to die daily in the way SGM teaches (in context where Paul says he dies daily he’s speaking of physical persecution and constantly facing death for his faith/preaching the gospel) . Their teaching essentially calls us to put ourselves and Jesus on the cross every time we sin, thereby crucifying Jesus over and over (Hebrews) as if his sacrifice didn’t successfully deal with sin once and for all. I lived in death under that teaching, now I live in freedom and life.
Another point that we brought up was the spiritual warfare dynamic, describing it just as you have, that if we teach people that sin is their only enemy we ignore to their harm the fact that the devil is our enemy and leave people open to deception and bondage by their ignorance.
You are in our prayers. There can be very dark times of doubt and attack during the process of leaving even relatively quietly, I can only imagine how difficult it must be to be speaking out loud and clear the way you are! May you find rest and joy in Jesus in all this…
January 28th, 2009 at 10:18 am
Something has been bothering me lately and that’s the idea that we don’t know who we’re talking to here. For all I know, Stein could be 17 years old and in the youth group at SGC (in which case I would be more likely to cut him some slack and apply more grace than if he were 45 and a college grad with a wife and kids). Live Wire sounds like someone I might know, but he/she could be Stein’s best friend with whom he’s had a falling out… We don’t actually KNOW who we’re talking to. Well, I do know some of the precious people on here because we’ve talked privately. But others like Stein? Your guess is as good as mine. I would be so much more comfortable knowing whether I’m talking to Eric Hughes or a high school student (although the Bible says a little child shall lead them, so I’m not knocking the youth at all). I’m just a little uncomfortable. Maybe it’s because my face and name are out there for all to see. I like it that way. I am findable. You can click on my name and go to my blog or website. It keeps me accountable (hate the dreaded word, but it fits in this case) for what I say on here. But I wish I knew who I was talking to. It’s unnerving. Also, there are people I know better than others and whose opinions I greatly value. I’d like to know if they’re here and if they concur with what we’ve all seen and experienced. Plus, I’d just like to say hi!
Oops, the real reason I came on here this morning was to thank Scott and Connie for sticking by my friends and standing for righteousness. God bless you!! Rich rewards in heaven.
January 28th, 2009 at 10:37 am
That is a beautiful post. Excellently done. Thank you.
One book I found most helpful in clearing the theological cobwebs out of my brain was John Piper’s book “Future Grace.” His basic is premise is that the New Covenant motivates and empowers us for holy living with hope in future grace, as opposed to what seems to be 99% of Christian teaching where we are trying to get motivated by backwards looking grattitude. ( ie, he died for me on the cross and I should be more grateful).
Piper is very very balanced and accurate so please don’t to jump to any criticism by what I post. He lays out the commands to give thanks and to remember and to be grateful. It is a huge part of life, yes! But then he lays out from scripture about how what strengthens us to press on is forward looking hope in future grace (not just eternity but here and now.)
I remember reading it out loud in parts to dear hubby and hubby saying again and again as I read: “CJ”. CJ back in my day was all crank up the backward looking grattitude, and no forward looking hope. I feel in a way like that book saved me, I was heading into a dark and dead place and that book was like an atom bomb dropped on all the cross guilt manipulation. It restored my joy and I have never gone back to cranking up the “I should be more grateful” mentality. It has encouraged me in intercession like none other.
If anybody is still struggling with any lingering guilt that you don’t have enough passion for the cross….. ( I will insert here, when you are passionate about something you want to spend time with it, and CJ openly said he wasn’t into prayer and really should pray more, back when he was telling us all about his great passion. Sorry, but passion for God equals prayer) …..you might find “Future Grace” a very helpful book to read. He also has a set of audios at desiringgod ministries from it but I think the book is better…but the audios are good if you have more time to listen to sermons than to read.
http://www.desiringgod.org/Sea.....ace+audios
January 28th, 2009 at 11:00 am
Scott & Connie,
Your care for the body of Christ is an example of what leadership should look like.
I pray that SGM would seriously consider and implement these suggestions.
Especially the one about “placing professional counselors on staff”, we would completely agree that pastors have proven they are not equipped to handle issues of sex crimes and stop hiding behind the clergy privilege, which was sadly our experience when we discovered our child had been molested.
Also, their reading selections must be expanded beyond what is currently on their shelves, there are a number of helpful books written for the victim and the one walking this out with the victim that have been extremely helpful to us. Our church (non-SGM)
goes out into the community and interviews LCSW’s before recommending them to members, and through that we found a wonderful Christian LCSW who has been incredibly helpful to our child and our whole family.
I pray the leaders of SGM would read your suggestions with humility and a heart to see the wrong they have done.
I keep praying..
January 28th, 2009 at 11:04 am
THANK YOU! These are points that desperately need to be said!
Two questions:Did the pastors receive this?
Can we do this letter in a petition format? I’d sign it!
January 28th, 2009 at 11:18 am
Julie said:
“Their teaching essentially calls us to put ourselves and Jesus on the cross every time we sin, thereby crucifying Jesus over and over (Hebrews) as if his sacrifice didn’t successfully deal with sin once and for all. I lived in death under that teaching, now I live in freedom and life.”
Julie,
I’m trying to understand SGM’s teachings because I have never been involved in this “family of churches”. My initial reaction to your comment is that there is a strong sense of Catholic traditionalism in SGM which obviously stems from C.J. Mahaney’s Catholic background.
What you have described above is called “transubstantiation” in Catholicism. If you are not familiar with this term, it means that the elements literally become the body and blood of Jesus Christ each time communion is observed. Essentially, Christ is nailed to the cross in each and every communion service. This is perhaps the most important part of the Catholic faith. If a Catholic does not regularly attend communion, he/she falls further and further into sin and those sins will have to be dealt with in purgatory. This accounts for the regular attendance of Catholics in their Mass.
The reason I believe you feel like you are nailed to the cross along with Jesus Christ every time you sin is in part due to this Catholic interpretation of communion. Protestants by and large believe that communion is merely symbolic. In other words, it is a remembrance of Christ’s sacrifice on the cross. The elements merely represent His body and blood — they are not mysteriously changed as the Catholics believe.
I have begun to suspect that the over-emphasis of indwelling sin in SGM can be partially attributed to Catholicism. Catholics must regularly confess their sins and be forgiven through communion.
Pastors who attend a “real” seminary are clearly taught the tenets of the Christian faith, and they fully understand the difference between the Catholic and Protestant beliefs regarding communion (yes, yes — I know that Luther had a slightly different take on communion due to his own Catholic background).
Jesus Christ died once for all! If you have accepted Him as your Lord and Savior, you are forgiven and you will spend eternity in heaven even if you haven’t confessed all of your sins. Salvation has EVERYTHING to do with the Grace of God. It is not based on our “works”. I believe that SGM emphasizes indwelling sin because it serves as a control mechanism.
January 28th, 2009 at 11:50 am
FreedomFighter
Check email
January 28th, 2009 at 12:31 pm
Scott and Connie,
Your prescription is exactly what the entire organization needs and what many people have been asking for many years. Thanks. Hopefully, the right people are reading it.
January 28th, 2009 at 12:49 pm
5YearsInPDI,
Hi! I assume that the use of PDI means you were there before the name change, as I was. When you posted, “CJ openly said he wasn’t into prayer and really should pray more, back when he was telling us all about his great passion”, I could hardly believe it. Yet, it explains alot.
In the early years, CJ had what seemed to be a very close relationship with the Lord. His teachings would make us laugh, but they also left us wanting more of the Lord. What happened? I don’t understand.
January 28th, 2009 at 12:55 pm
“Sins of a sexual nature in which there has been a criminal act MUST be reported to civil authorities and handled by professionals outside the church.”
How sad and alarming that this even has to be said!
Wanda,
SGM’s doctrinal stance on sin and the Cross is very different from Catholic teaching, and it is definitely not related to Catholic teaching on communion/transubtantiation. The SGM doctrine (CJ’s teaching) is basically that because Christ died for every one of our sins, each and every sin we commit was responsible for nailing Christ to the Cross. Therefore every time we sin it is as though we are making the crucifixion happen all over again; this doctrine has nothing to do with communion or SGM’s doctrine or practice of communion. Their doctrine of communion is a fairly standard evangelical one.
Catholic teaching on transubstantiation is not what you have described, apart from the belief that communion is the literal body and blood of Christ. The Catholic doctrine is that the crucifixion is a once and for all sacrifice that is made present in each service, not that it happens again and again in each service. Attendance at Mass is required because it is the observance of the Sabbath in Catholic teaching, not because taking communion is required to not fall into sin. In fact Catholics are only required to take communion once a year.
There are a number of ex-Catholics in CLC leadership, including CJ, but from my recollection of their testimonies none of them were raised as particularly observant Catholics. I doubt the connection between Catholicism and SGM is anything more than coincidental.
January 28th, 2009 at 1:06 pm
I agree with every single point!
Thank you.
January 28th, 2009 at 3:20 pm
Wonderful.
One thing I would add is to stop making things that are up to the individual part of church teaching.
January 28th, 2009 at 3:53 pm
Good starting point-I’d also like to see a public invitation for the Apostolic team to apologize and then step down for their gross lack of leadership. They are apostles in name only-I find much of what is reported and much of what I’ve seen firsthand as cowardice.
CJ-Why didn’t you attend on the 25th? Dave Harvey? Steve Shank?
again-what good is your Apostolic covering if you are silent and nowhere to be found when it matters most?
January 28th, 2009 at 4:05 pm
I want to emphasize again our love for the Cross as stated in our first post. Because of the Cross, we are completely forgiven and covered in the blood of Jesus Christ and His righteousness: “As we conclude this letter, let us make it clear that our love and thankfulness for the Cross of Jesus Christ has never changed. We love the Cross and we will be ever thankful for the wonderful teaching by John Butler and others on the Cross. It has been our experience, however, that there has been an overemphasis on the doctrine of indwelling sin from the pulpit at SGC which has effected other doctrine, counseling, parenting, and every aspect of life within SGC. We desire to walk in the fullness of the Gospel with all the hope and joy that is offered to us. For us, this includes the Conception, Life, Death, Resurrection, and Ascension of Jesus Christ as well as the ministry of the Holy Spirit. In this we have an abundance in Christ including (but certainly not limited to): we have VICTORY in Christ; we are OVERCOMERS in Christ, we are CO-HEIRS with Christ, and our identity is in Christ. We can put sin to death because of the resurrection power dwelling within each believer; that same power that raised Jesus Christ from the dead!”
We believe that the WHOLE Gospel should be preached from the pulpit. We are not moving away from our love for the Cross as was implied at the Family meeting – we just want to hear the WHOLE Message.
January 28th, 2009 at 4:15 pm
“We believe that the WHOLE Gospel should be preached from the pulpit. We are not moving away from our love for the Cross as was stated at the Family meeting – we just want to hear the WHOLE Message.”
Amen!
January 28th, 2009 at 4:20 pm
Connie,
Care to share what church you will now be attending? Some of us would love to be under teaching that embraces ALL that you just described.
January 28th, 2009 at 4:50 pm
“We are not moving away from our love for the Cross as was implied at the Family meeting”
Hi Connie – Kudos!
SGM equates the gospel with the death of Christ, and, as you shared, the whole gospel needs to be preached, including the resurrection and the victory that is ours through Christ.
Assuming that “moving away from the Cross” meant moving away from an emphasis on mortification, the implication was to suggest that your behavior was somehow rooted in sin? So, if folks were to follow your example, they would be moving away from sin (the Cross)? If that was truly the implication, one can hardly begin to believe they had repented for having called you all “enemies of the church”.
But in a positive light, think of the implications! Moving away from “the Cross” might possibly mean moving away from a continuous state of shame and humiliation into more of a freedom from sin! That would be hard to control! Yet, that is where the full gospel takes us!
“Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.” Ro 6:4
January 28th, 2009 at 4:59 pm
canary…yeah, we were there when it was PDI the nouns and then towards the end it was PDI the verbs. SGM after we left.
My hub had met CJ once at a big meeting way back, maybe 79-80 or so IIRC. And he seemed truly kind and tenderhearted back then with a fine reputation.
What happened? Why?
Why did Solomon end up worshipping idols? Why did Peter get so aloof and separated in Galatians that Paul had to openly rebuke him? How did the churches in Revelation go so off…..losing their first love, tolerating false prophecy, etc?
I don’t know. But it should be sobering for all of us. My personal opinion is that the minute you hear the words “doing it right”, instead of “dependency on God” or things like “calling out to God in prayer” it has crossed from grace and God’s power to human effort. But why did that happen? God is not a gossip and He will never tell any of us the secret things behind the mess. But there must have been something.
The usual big suspects are money, power, and sex. If I had to put my money on it I’d guess power…from what I know he is generous, and has a attractive wife who loves him. That leaves power.
January 28th, 2009 at 5:22 pm
Soonex, not to sound paranoid, but I would not share publicly where you plan to attend church after this. SG pastors have been known to extend their control issues even after you leave..so it is best NOT to give out too much information for them to work with..just my opinion.
talk amongst yourselves, but I would not put it here for all to see.
January 28th, 2009 at 6:09 pm
Good point, Juli-
One doesn’t want to be “lovingly pursued”.
January 28th, 2009 at 7:31 pm
Work-in-progress,
I do think that the similarities ARE NOT coincidental.
CJ set up SGM in the precise way that the Catholic church is organized:
Pope–CJ
Cardinals–Leadership Apostolic Whatever they call themselves
Bishops–Local/regional apostles
Priests–pastors
No election of officers. No choice of pastor. No control over church. Huge amount of budget sent to Rome/MD.
One difference–the Catholic church gives HUUUUGGGGGEEEEEEEEEE amounts to charity. Even IF Ches. increases its giving 10x, we are still only talking ~11,000 a year. That won’t help more than one unemployed family for six months.
1/2 of ONE PERCENT. Puh-leeze. Grow up, SGM!
January 28th, 2009 at 7:33 pm
SoonEx – per your 28 Jan 11:04 post:
Yes, I sent the Get-Well plan to all the SGCC pastors and care group leaders as well as to an apostle (not Gene E.) on 16 Jan
Although we are moving on, we continue to pray that the body and pastors at SGCC will be blessed with a renewed love for Christ.
Please continue to pray for Esther, as she and her family continue to face very difficult situations. Since we are no longer at SGCC we are now reallocating our former monthly Mission Fund offering to Ester and her family – feel free to join us in supporting them!
If anyone has specific questions please contact me at sckee the number one at msn dot com
January 28th, 2009 at 7:33 pm
Soon-ex.
That church doesn’t exist. Every gathering of the body is flawed. That is why you must find a group of believers in which to worship wherein there is mutual accountability, trust and cooperation.
Check the polity first. Go from there.
Godspeed!
January 28th, 2009 at 8:11 pm
Annie said, “I was wondering if anything was ever addressed at the Jan. 25th meeting about the rude way the two care group leaders were “relieved” of their CG leadership?”
No, nothing was said at the meeting on the 25th. However, Keith did apologize in a private meeting on the 21st.
January 28th, 2009 at 9:03 pm
5YearsinPDI,
I tend to think the best of people, so it is hard for me to believe that a leader like CJ would desire power. Yet, I think I must be nieve. So many things happened before we left that I wouldn’t have believed. Right before my eyes, men that I trusted and loved turned into strangers who were angry with me for wanting to follow the Holy Spirit. I would never have believed that could happen.
If a person doesn’t pray, stops abiding on the vine, doesn’t walk closely with Jesus every day, denies the Holy Spirit the freedom to move amongst church members, well, it all becomes religion and head knowledge. I know that, where the law is preached, sin will abound. So one must learn a huge amount of control and self discipline. Is this what happened? Because there was a time in the early days of PDI when the Holy Spirit was welcomed, when we were free to follow our conscious. Eventually, we were forced to confess sin, to tythe, to put lots of money in the church building fund, to confess more sin, to ask leaders before moving…what in the world happened? When did these men begin to really believe that they “stand in the very stead of God”?
January 28th, 2009 at 9:09 pm
I thought something was explained at an earlier meeting…
January 28th, 2009 at 10:26 pm
RT – SGM’s polity is much more simplistic compared to churches with an established episcopal polity such as the Catholic Church or the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox Churches. There are superficial similarities but profound differences in both doctrine and practice. For one thing, practically speaking it’s much easier for CJ and the “apostles” to impose conformity on their churches from the top, because SGM is such a small organization compared to any established episcopal church. They would not be able to reproduce a certain culture and particular behaviors/attitudes at all levels of SGM (church, care group, family, marriage) if their members numbered in the millions as in established episcopal churches. You simply do not see the same degree of uniformity in Catholic churches as you do in SGM. But the differences are on a doctrinal level as well – Catholic, Orthodox, Anglican, etc. polities are much more complicated than SGM’s very simplistic approach to polity.
January 28th, 2009 at 10:32 pm
I can’t edit my comment above for some reason – but I wanted to add that over-simplifying things is IMO a hallmark of SGM’s approach to doctrine and practice. Another example of this would be the teaching on “seeing everything in light of the Cross.” As Scott and Connie have aptly pointed out the Gospel is about more than the Cross. But just as SGM boils polity down to obeying the leaders over you simply because they are your leaders – which is not a true episcopal approach – they boil the Gospel down to human sinfulness and the crucifixion.
January 28th, 2009 at 10:45 pm
canary said:
“I tend to think the best of people, so it is hard for me to believe that a leader like CJ would desire power. Yet, I think I must be nieve. So many things happened before we left that I wouldn’t have believed. Right before my eyes, men that I trusted and loved turned into strangers who were angry with me for wanting to follow the Holy Spirit. I would never have believed that could happen.”
Well if you want one example look how Mahaney questionably pushed out Larry Tomczak.
Mahaney and Tomczak when they first founded CLC (originally called Gathering of Believers) taught on plurality of leadership and never having one senior position. They taught that it should be a group of leaders ruling. Oh how they have changed from that thinking to where some call Mahaney the “pope” of their group.
January 28th, 2009 at 11:28 pm
Scott & Connie – the “Get Well” plan is exactly right on! As to someone finding a church that embraces all of these, I don’t think it’s as difficult as some might think. In fact, my wife & I began to notice & discuss some of these issues about 4-5years ago. We stayed in a SGM church for a lot of the same reasons other people do. However, we started to feel drawn to visit other ministries where the presence of God and the ministry of the Holy Spirit were more in evidence. As a result, we ended up sort of supplementing our spiritual diet with “outside” influences which seemed to be producing greater spiritual health for us. We began to take on reponsibilty for our own spiritual growth. During this season, we often visited a local church where some of our extended family are members. Initially we went to investigate when these family members first started attending because we were partly concerned about what kind of church they might be getting involved with. We were delighted to learn immediately that they considered themselves to be doctrinally reformed and charismatic!
At that time there were three primary things that concerned us about SGM: 1) Indwelling sin: On studying the ”wretched man” passage in Romans 7 that is so often the basis for the doctrine of indwelling sin, we felt that we had been taking this out of context and missing Paul’s point that the “wretched man” is one who’s been saved by grace, but attempting to live under the law. That we are a new creation in Christ, sometimes walking in the flesh and not in the Spirit, but no longer sinners — now, saints!
2) The active ministry of the Holy Spirit with accompanying gifts. We in SGM used to believe the gifts were for today. But we realized that we were actually nervous about somebody overhearing us praying in tonguesin a meeting!
3)The isolationist nature of the churches in the movement. (Didn’t we used to participate in the National Day of Prayer, for example? And why does there seem to be an approved reading list?)
A funny thing happened whenever we visited this new church. It seemed that every one of these concerns would be addressed, every time we went! We have recently made the jump and joined this church, and of course they don’t constantly talk about those 3 issues every single meeting. But we can see in hindsight that the Holy Spirit was drawing us to these good people.
I can heartily recommend them, although out of concern for family members still in SGM, I won’t identify the particular church. But they are members of an association by the name of Fellowship of Connected Churches and Ministries (FCCM). We also find New Frontiers Ministries to be very beneficial, as we subscribe to Adrian Warnock’s blog and frequently download podcasts from their churches.
I guess my real point is that if the Lord has put something on your heart, you can trust Him to lead you to just the right place for you!
January 29th, 2009 at 7:11 am
Good News, SGM Refugees, the Emancipation Proclamation has been signed!
I posted something last night on the “Chesapeake” thread by error, which I meant to post here, regarding the FULL message of the Gospel found in 1 Corinthians 15. I won’t show my pride (smile) by reposting it here where it belongs.
I am so very troubled by SGM’s deliberate doctrinal error which keeps people from experiencing the fullness of the joy, the victory, the LIFE of the Gospel (which is defined simply in 1 Cor 15:4 as: Christ died, was buried AND ROSE AGAIN).
I was awoken this morning at 5am to hear a teaching by Chuck Swindoll on the Emancipation Proclamation (I usually don’t listen to radio preachers as I don’t like the noise of radio). This message hit the issue spot on. (Maybe it will be available online to hear today?)
The gist of the message was that, although the Proclamation freeing slaves had been signed, many folk continued to needlessly live a life of slavery. Some had not heard the good news of their emancipation because their owners did not share the good news with them. Others chose to voluntarily continue to wear the yoke of slavery for many years after they had been declared free.
Can you already see how this message applies to you? SGM’s unbalanced teaching of the cross, of indwelling sin, keeps people in slavery to sin and death.
But the Good News, the TRUE Gospel message includes the Risen Christ.
I’m trying to find a verse in Romans 6 to paste here to validate that you have LIFE with Christ (and not merely death) but there are too many verses to choose from.
Shall I choose verse 2? May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?
Or verse 4? Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.
Will verse 5 speak to the heart of the SGM Refugee? For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection.
How about verse 6 which validates the slavery motif? Knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin.
Oh the richness of the TRUE and FULL Gospel! You are so beloved, Child of God! Christ died to free you from slavery to sin and death. He signed your Emancipation Proclamation in His blood. You are no longer a slave. Be free. Live free.
Try to live this one day without condemning yourself for your sin. Make up your mind to refuse to entertain the old, tiring, weary voice of condemnation. Oh sure, you’ll sin today – but the TRUE Good News is that you have an advocate. When you sin, God sees it not: for you are washed in the pure and holy blood of Christ. When God looks upon you, Believer in Messiah, He only sees Christ’s righteousness, which has been imputed (given) unto you. Put all voices of condemnation behind, those voices of the past who hound you with inquiry of, “Where is your sin?” The answer, should you need it, is “Washed Away. As far as the east is from the west, so far has He removed my sin from me. I am free from the Law of Sin and Death and have been raised to New Life in Christ.”
Instead of dwelling on past slavery, set your mind on this: Finally, brothers, whatever is TRUE, whatever is NOBLE, whatever is RIGHT, whatever is PURE, whatever is LOVELY, whatever is ADMIRABLE—if anything is EXCELLENT or PRAISEWORTHY—think about such things. (Phil 4:8) (Caps mine.)
I pray that today will be a glorious day for you as you fully embrace your life in the Kingdom of Life. You are greatly loved.
(Please forgive my presumptuous preaching.)
January 29th, 2009 at 7:19 am
Remnant-
BRAVO!
January 29th, 2009 at 7:35 am
Yes, Remnant, and perhaps it will become a habit.
January 29th, 2009 at 7:36 am
Scott and Connie,
I echo everyone’s comments here… you ARE heroes of the faith! Not only because you stood up for Esther, and for Truth, but because your love for your church is so evident in the above post! Even though you have moved on, your heart for this church, and the whole church, all of us who are a part of the body of believers, remains!
To all of the new faces who have joined us here at The Refuge… Welcome! My hope and prayer would be that you find freedom in Christ, first and foremost. Also that this would be a place of comfort, rest and healing for you.
To all of the familiar faces…
Great comments!
January 29th, 2009 at 7:50 am
I’m so overwhelmed at what Remnant said and what I’m reading and hearing. I prayed for my friends in Chesapeake for ten years, not full of faith, not even believing God was listening. And now I’m watching Him free them and fill them afresh with the Holy Spirit. I’m just sobbing with relief. I know not all of them are able to see the error and not everyone will leave the church. (I don’t want them to!) But the mere idea that I can grab them and hug them and see friendships restored (many already have been via email which is probably why I’m so blubbery this morning) is just overwhelming me. Oh, the goodness of our God!!! And that He answered the prayers of a scared little overworked homeschool mommy in Charlotte, North Carolina. Wow. Thank you Scott and Connie and Jim and Carole and Kris and Guy.
While I was praying for all the women who have been abused or wounded in some way through all that’s gone on, the Lord put a song in my heart. It’s a song of Thanksgiving from the old Episcopal hymnal. We Gather Together to Ask the Lord’s Blessing. I love it! Especially this part:
The wicked oppressing now cease from distressing…
Thy name be ever praised, Oh Lord make us free…
Now from the beginning the fight we were winning,
thou Lord wast at our side, all glory be thine!
January 29th, 2009 at 8:03 am
Remnant said:
“Can you already see how this message applies to you? SGM’s unbalanced teaching of the cross, of indwelling sin, keeps people in slavery to sin and death.”
Work-in-Progress seems to know more about the Catholic faith than I; however, I plan do some research to educate myself more about Catholicism. I have a close friend who is a devout Catholic, so I’ll ask her some probing questions about the Eucharist and confession.
I still believe that the Catholic backgrounds of both C.J. Mahaney and Larry Tomczak influenced the tenets of PDI/SGM. Maybe they weren’t devout in their faith during their formative years, but it’s probably all they knew. They were both Catholic charismatics in the 1970s before establishing what I consider to be a new belief system.
What I find most telling is that there is so much emphasis placed on the cross in Sovereign Grace churches. Walk into any Catholic church, and you will observe Jesus perpetually nailed to the cross. I serve a risen Lord who overcame death in order that we might have eternal life. Does C.J. ever focus on the resurrection? If so, how much compared to the cross?
Because the Holy Spirit lives inside of me, I no longer focus on my indwelling sin. I ask for God’s forgiveness when I sin (especially before I pray), but I’m not obsessed with my sin. I no longer fear death because as a follower of Jesus Christ I have been promised eternal life. That’s the GOOD NEWS we must share with a lost world!!!
SGMers, you must not live in bondage to your sin. It’s a snare, and it will rob you of all your joy as a Christian.
January 29th, 2009 at 8:32 am
Wanda – I was raised Catholic, and Catholics have something I like to call “Catholic Guilt”. I will say “SGM Guilt” is far worse than Catholic Guilt.
The other thing is Yes, the Catholic church does have Jesus on the cross above the altar. But, SGM has taken the “Cross” message much futher than the Catholic church – having spent a number of my younger years in Catholic church (CCD class, first comunion, confirmation, Catholic school which included scripture class) – I would know, I was taught it until my conversion experience in high school. At least the Catholic church puts a huge emphasis on the risen Lord, and how yes, Jesus died for you sins AND he ROSE AGAIN. They teach from the whole Bible, including the apocrypha (and your belief that apocrypha is cannon depends on what demon you belong to – heck, lots of churchs have different ideas on what is cannon is what is not). I don’t agree with all of Catholic theology, but they do teach more than “Jesus died for you, the “wrost sinner we know”"
January 29th, 2009 at 8:33 am
Remnant… YES!!!
Thank you for posting this!!!
January 29th, 2009 at 8:45 am
Freedom,
Thanks for your insights! What do you believe is the motivation for focusing more on the cross than the resurrection in SGM? Isn’t this a control mechanism?
January 29th, 2009 at 8:47 am
FF – what a sweet, precious heart you have!
Wanda – to add a wee to your post – here’s a freeing thought – well, it freed me -
In the prayer Jesus taught His disciples to pray, we are instructed to bring our petitions to the Lord BEFORE confessing our sins.
Give us this day our daily bread
(petitioning the Lord for our daily needs comes before)
And forgive us our trespasses.
As humans, we want to say, “Ok, now that I’ve confessed my sin, now that I’ve paid my dues, now that I’ve been washed clean, paid my dues, done penitence, I can ask God for a favor or two.” Yes? You feel the way I do?
But we are instructed to ask Our Father for favors BEFORE we “get right with God.”
God grants His children favors on a completely unmerited basis. Complete. Unmerited. Undeserved. Unreserved.
No guilt. Not today. God fully and completely loves. Perfectly. We do not need to earn it. We can’t earn it. It is a free gift.
Yes?
January 29th, 2009 at 8:51 am
Wanda – so much of what SGM does is about control, the leadership is full of control freaks. They just try to “biblicalize” and soften it i.e “we are not a shepherding church”, even though that is what they do! I don’t know if the whole cross message is about control, but it does go a long way towards to control. I will say the the Catholic church has no where near the control that SGM forces on it’s members. Heck, I have never heard a priest confront people for going to the Saturday evening mass so they can go out drinking Saturday night and sleep in Sunday!
January 29th, 2009 at 8:51 am
Remnant said:
“Can you already see how this message applies to you? SGM’s unbalanced teaching of the cross, of indwelling sin, keeps people in slavery to sin and death.”
Absolutely right and well said! It is Holy Spirit who convicts us of our sin and reveals it to us. Yes we are certainly to be aware of our sin and we are responsible for our sin, but we have been taught at SGC to focus on our sin and search, search, search for it. (Anyone ever looked for fleas on their dog with a flea comb?) Also we have been taught to identify and confront others about THEIR sin (I am so very sad at this one and I have asked for forgiveness from my family and others for this. Actually I am sad about it all.) Truly I believe that this quenches the Holy Spirit within us and hardens our heart to the Spirit. It is the power of God through the Holy Spirit that enables us to put sin to death, not our man centered efforts. If we have hardened our hearts and quenched the Spirit through our own efforts then we are trying to put sin to death on our own. This man centered effort will never work! That is why many are trapped in their sins with the result being that they are in slavery and bondage and then strongholds are established in hearts (and in churches). It is really legalism and a very man centered teaching and keeps those who believe it from the abundant life that Jesus has promised. There is no real joy, no freedom in the Spirit, and no real effectiveness for the kingdom of God. Who would have ever believed it??? Only God can remove veils over eyes and open eyes to the truth!
I have been studying Romans 5:10, 11 “For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.”
Do CJ, SS, Jeff Purswell, et al really believe that we have been reconciled or do they believe that we are still enemies of God?
January 29th, 2009 at 9:00 am
Remnant!
Thank you for that post, EXCELLENT!
Connie,
So true, excellent post.
January 29th, 2009 at 9:01 am
Connie said,
“ Also we have been taught to identify and confront others about THEIR sin . . .”
Connie,
I have a question for you. Are wives “allowed” to confront their husbands about THEIR sin? Who can confront the SGM pastors about their indwelling sin?
Just want you, Kris, Freedom, Remnant, and others to know that I really appreciate your answering all of my questions. I’m getting quite an education about Sovereign Grace Ministries. It’s absolutely FASCINATING!!!
January 29th, 2009 at 9:08 am
Wanda,
In my little SGM world, my wife was encouraged to confront me in my sin.
Only other (and usually “higher up”) pastors may bring observations to pastors.
I never heard this clearly taught, and when I asked, my ex sr pastor denied it, but it was clearly the mindset and practice.
These men return from the pastors college with a completely extra biblical view of their authority.
January 29th, 2009 at 9:42 am
Checkthis out. http://www.carm.org/sermons/Heb_6_1-2.htm
January 29th, 2009 at 10:18 am
Remnant,
your post at 7:11: WOW!!! Keep it up!!!
January 29th, 2009 at 10:32 am
Remnant said:
“Try to live this one day without condemning yourself for your sin. Make up your mind to refuse to entertain the old, tiring, weary voice of condemnation.”
This really is an EXCELLENT recommendation!
When we become Christians, we are no longer slaves to sin because Jesus Christ paid the price for all of our sins on Calvary.
Let me tell you where that “voice of condemnation” comes from — it comes from Satan! Our enemy wants us to focus on our sin; Jesus Christ has set us free! Praise God for His unconditional love for His children!!!
January 29th, 2009 at 10:39 am
Freedom,
I was also raised Catholic and while reading your post, I had a flashback to the little church that we went to every Sunday. The front walls of this old church were painted with 3 beautiful scenes from Bible. On the left and right sides were 2 scenes and the scene in the middle was larger than the two side scenes. On the left was the crucifixion, on the right was the ascension, and the one in the middle depicted when Jesus showed Himself to the women after rising from the dead (in the background was a scenic view of Jerusalem).
For years I haven’t really thought of the “good things” about my childhood growing up Catholic. But as I look back, I can see the Lord drawing me to Himself, in a way emphasizing what He wanted me to hold on to.
I was also taken to the Methodist church that my Aunt went to. I remember her teaching me “I come to the garden alone, while the dew is still on the roooooooooooooo-ses…”
Though there was/is false doctrine in the Catholic church, as well as false teachings in other churches, God was faithful, and continues to be faithful, to guide me along. I just wanted to learn to hear Him more clearly FOR MYSELF, and when I was told by SGM that we can’t do that because our hearts are “desperately wicked” and that we need someone other than the Holy Spirit to tell us what to do, I KNEW that I knew that what they were saying was not true.
January 29th, 2009 at 11:07 am
Connie,
“It is the power of God through the Holy Spirit that enables us to put sin to death, not our man centered efforts. If we have hardened our hearts and quenched the Spirit through our own efforts then we are trying to put sin to death on our own. This man centered effort will never work!”
Wow, I feel like I am at a banquet with so much good stuff to eat that I can hardly take it all in! Thanks!!
January 29th, 2009 at 12:22 pm
You know, for the last year and few months, I’ve been hearing about the book “The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse”, but only just in the last few days have I actually gotten my hands on a copy and started reading it. I feel this book should be required reading for everyone, but especially for those who read on Refuge and Survivors. What a powerful powerful book!!
Has anyone read any other of Jeff VanVonderen’s book, especially “Families Where Grace is in Place”? Any thoughts? Thanks!
January 29th, 2009 at 1:04 pm
Ellie,
I bought “Families Where Grace is in Place” right after we left our SG church.
It was very helpful. (Once I got over my guilt of reading a “non-approved” book!
January 29th, 2009 at 1:11 pm
I love that book!
January 29th, 2009 at 1:15 pm
HappyMom said:
“Once I got over my guilt of reading a “non-approved” book!”
If this is true about SGM churches across the board (and I have read enough here and at Survivors to believe that it is), then I find their control of what members read EXTREMELY sad and utterly disgusting!!!
January 29th, 2009 at 1:22 pm
Ellie-
That book should be required-amen to that.
January 29th, 2009 at 1:23 pm
Wanda,
While I would agree that there was a tight reign over what went in the bookstore, I need to take responsibility for what I bought into as an adult.
January 29th, 2009 at 1:50 pm
I was too much of a “rebel” to only read from an approved list. Well, that and knowing that the HS would let me know if a book was ok to read or not.
I remember the episode on the “Waltons” where some of the people were going nuts during WW2 about all things German and started to have a book burning. It stopped when one of the books rescued was read outloud. It was the Bible in German. And it would’ve been burned because of fear.
January 29th, 2009 at 1:52 pm
Ellie wrote:
“You know, for the last year and few months, I’ve been hearing about the book “The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse”, but only just in the last few days have I actually gotten my hands on a copy and started reading it. I feel this book should be required reading for everyone, but especially for those who read on Refuge and Survivors. What a powerful powerful book!!”
Heresy! Ellie is starting a suggested reading list!
hehe just kiddin
January 29th, 2009 at 1:57 pm
Heheh….nah, just a “required reading” one.
You may read other books if you so desire….
January 29th, 2009 at 2:09 pm
I can? Sweeeeeeet
January 29th, 2009 at 2:09 pm
Has anyone read, “A Tale of Three Kinds” by Gene Edwards? It’s about Saul, David, and Absalom and how to respond to the abuse of authority.
January 29th, 2009 at 2:12 pm
Ellie–”I come to the garden alone……..while the dew is still on the rooooooses.”
Thanks for bring a smile to my face–I learned that song too when I was young!
January 29th, 2009 at 2:48 pm
Sorry, but I am still on board with Wanda on this one.
WIP, your rebuttal of my insistence that Catholicism is the basis from which CJ built SGM was simply that SGM is smaller than the Catholic church so they are able to control their members more effectively.
But I totally agree with you. Only Catholicism’s size has allowed breakaway at their parish level. They are both top-down authorities, who encourage their members to come to their ‘priests’ for teaching and Biblical exegesis.
They insist on marriage only to fellow church members.
They believe they are the only church that holds correct doctrine and truth.
They are both obsessed with the Cross
They are both obsessed with confessing sin.
They hold their respective ‘priesthoods’ as a higher and more sacred group of people, allowing the laity little to no input on anything related to the administration of the church.
In today’s world, with the vast array of polity available, one who ’starts’ a new denomination must adopt one of those polities–CJ, because of his familiarity with Catholicism, chose theirs.
He has absolutely no training from older men in Christ, so he is like a little boy, choosing this, choosing that.
“I want to be the boss, so we will set up a Catholic style government. That way, no one can take me down.
I like Protestant doctrine best. We will be protestant. Better yet, let’s call ourselves reformed.
I like to raise my hands and jump up and down. Let’s throw in Charismatic.”
Demeaning to all three, he picks and chooses and slaps labels on his new fangled church that don’t fit. But again, like a petulant ruler, he refuses to hear anyone tell him that the Emperor has no clothes on.
Problem is, he went ahead and tried to blend a Catholic polity with a Protestant doctrinal stance (sort of) with the exuberance that those who hold a Charismatic doctrine display.
The whole thing is Brunswick Stew gone wrong.
January 29th, 2009 at 3:07 pm
Wanda asked: What do you believe is the motivation for focusing more on the cross than the resurrection in SGM?
I think the pastors are so aware of their responsibility before God to care for and protect the flock that they’ve placed more of an emphasis on doing what they can to keep everyone from going astray. Hemming everyone in to protect them. If you are aware of your sin and how debased you are in your fallen nature, it will keep you from straying further into sin, because you will try harder and harder to control those sinful urges.
Along with that, CJ and the top guys are all generally Type-A, bold, passionate guys. These type of guys are probably more inclined towards passionate, loud, outward sins and want to keep control of themselves. A continual awareness of and emphasis on their sin helps them keep in check and maintain self-control. If allowed to walk more in the freedom and triumph of the resurrection, they may feel that they will not be able to keep such a tight reign on themselves. This practice and need in their own lives naturally trickles down to the masses through their teaching.
But isn’t it wonderful that we don’t need to live this way! When you realize that, because of Christ’s death and resurrection, sin is no longer a master over you, you can walk in joy and freedom, knowing that when you do sin, God will still love you, forgive you, remind you that you are still His child and drench you in the grace and presence of His Spirit to help you walk in the manner He has called you to. Isn’t that a breath of fresh air?
We’ll be outwardly a little messier, not so tidy in our Christian lives, but walking fully in grace, not fear. When Christ was last seen on earth he was ascending and everyone was looking up at Him. Keep your gaze up there at Him, not down on yourself.
January 29th, 2009 at 3:08 pm
FWGITP is a wonderful book.
January 29th, 2009 at 3:25 pm
WOW Reformed Teacher!!! You have nailed it about the SGM smorgasbord! A little bit of this and a little bit of that.
Let’s not forget the endorsements C.J. Mahaney has received along the way from Mark Dever, Al Mohler, John Piper, John MacArthur, Ligon Duncan, Joshua Harris, Nancy Leigh DeMoss, Carolyn McCulley, Russell Moore, the Raineys, his colleagues on the Council for Biblical Manhood and Womanhood, the Alliance for Confessing Evangelicals, and evangelical seminaries. I’m sure I have missed some others.
I also hold these highly respected leaders in Christendom responsible for placing C.J. on a pedestal. What a dangerous place to be!!!
Why would some of these high-profile Christian leaders attach themselves to someone like Mahaney? Here’s my theory . . .
Calvinism has been B-O-R-I-N-G for so long, and all of a sudden C.J. comes along and charismatically spices it up! Look at all the books that have been written and sold as a result! There are plenty of profits to go around!!!
Yes, back to the World’s Greatest Bookstore. Here’s my opinion for what it’s worth (I know it’s not worth much of anything because you’re getting it for FREE). I don’t think churches should be selling books in house PERIOD. I think SGM clearly demonstrates why I have such a strong opinion on this issue. Church members can easily be manipulated when they are encouraged/forced to read books on an “approved list”.
January 29th, 2009 at 4:22 pm
Wanda and RT,
You’ve baited me into a conversation I’ve been wanting to have for a while:) We may need to take this to another, theological thread, so Jim feel free to intervene if we are off-topic.
SGM is not just reformed, but obsessed with the Puritan expression of Calvinism. I studied a lot of Colonial literature in college prior to the shift, so I was alarmed when it happened. I asked one CLC pastor, “What makes you think you can adopt Puritan doctrine without repeating all of their mistakes? Are we any better than they were?” Obviously he was not pleased, and I was rebuked for questioning the theological giants on staff.
My point is that systematic theologies are not equivalent to the Bible, they are fashioned by men and are not authoritative. For all the dense discussion involved, they are, in the end, perspectives on scripture and are affected by the current spiritual and cultural environment. They can be very useful, but to make best use of them your have to understand the historical context first.
So, Puritan Calvinism was formed in an environment of:
1. Rationalism
2. Wide spread spiritual apathy and church corruption
3. Persecution
4. Disillusion with the reform movement (the Prutians were Separatists by nature)
5. Visible demonic opposition (at least in the Colonies)
Thus, the emphasis on confronting sin. It was a necessary emphasis for the time.
Also, I tend to think that some expressions of Calvinism (but not all reformed theology) tend to encourage legalism (It don’t want to fight about this. It’s just my opinion). The Puritan movement in America was severely damaged by the following type of thinking:
1. Only the Elect are saved
2. God blesses the Elect
3. The only way to know who is Elect is by the evidence of prosperity or other fruit
4. Thus everyone tries really hard to appear Elect
You can see traces of this thinking in SGM views on gifting and calling.
To find out what was really going on in the Puritan communities, you have to read non spiritual works of the period such as Jonathan Winthrop’s Journal and the Diary or Mary Rowlandson. You will find that there was a huge difference between the ideals preached by leaders such as Cotton and Increase Mather and the average member of the congregation. Ultimately, the leadership did not address the real needs of the people and movement lost most of it’s influence within a generation. The ensuing generations were not motivated by the same trials and faith of the original settlers and they became tired of the legalistic burdens. The result was several denominations we now consider dead (or mostly dead as Billy Crystal would say).
Will SGM repeat history?
January 29th, 2009 at 4:55 pm
Off topic works for me
January 29th, 2009 at 5:04 pm
RT, my argument was not “simply” that the Catholic Church is bigger than SGM. It was that Catholic doctrine and practice as regards polity is very different from and much more nuanced and sophisticated than SGM’s.
Also, a number of the things you’ve listed about the similarities between the two groups are incorrect. I’ll point out only specifically the point about marrying within the church because that’s something I’ve been thinking about with respect to SGM – the fact that members are more likely to marry an SGM member from a church in a different city or even state than they are to marry a Christian from a non-SGM local church. It’s absolutely not the case that Catholics are required to only marry Catholics. That has not been the case for decades now.
I don’t want to get into a drawn out debate about this, so as for the rest I’ll just have to say I disagree and leave it at that. I do want to say that I appreciate that there can be disagreement without the labels of “gossip” or “slander” being thrown around. It’s refreshing.
January 29th, 2009 at 5:32 pm
The teaching on the “centrality of the cross”is why I left SGM. I would say that, for me, it was the crux of the matter (haha little pun intended there).
I only heard preaching about the cross, singing about the cross, and declarations that we would “never move away from the cross”. It was like the cross was the main thing, and “keeping the main thing the main thing” was – the cross.
I know that the cross provided us with atonement for our sins, and the resurrection insured that we weren’t left with yet another dead guy who claimed to be God, but wasn’t. Jesus, by virtue of His sinless life, conquered death. Death could not hold him. “Up from the grave He arose, with a mighty triumph over His foes! He arose a victor from the dark domain, and He lives forever with His saints to reign!”
But, rather than the cross, I think the crowning achievement of Jesus’ ministry was His ascension, because everything moved toward that. Mission Accomplished. Jesus said, “I go to My Father and to Your Father; to My God and to Your God.” And then the Spirit came bringing the Kingdom of God to dwell inside of us. The Kingdom of God would not have become a reality in our lives unless Jesus had died on the cross, been resurrected, and then ascended into heaven. The goal, the mission, was to reconcile us and bring us into the Kingdom. If we stop at the cross, we don’t end up all the way home.
The way SGM emphasized the cross was like one leg of a three legged stool. It can’t support any weight, and it’s dangerous if you attempt to. For those of us who have experienced the cross-centered SGM gospel, we know the legalism it produces.
What bothers me is that CJ Mahaney is aware of this. I’m sure he has been told. So, the question is, why the continued insistence upon “never moving away from the cross”, when we all know there’s more to the gospel?
Your guess is as good as mine, but here are a few of my guesses:
*Moving away from teaching “the cross” would involve an admission that it’s not just the cross that is central. The mantra, “change is here to stay” apparently doesn’t apply to some things.
*It’s part of the foundation of the SGM “apostles” teaching. Perhaps being an apostle means having the authority to dissect the scriptures and put them back together again, all in an effort to bring “doctrinally sound” teaching to SGM. Memo to SGM: We have the full counsel of scripture that the real Apostles were entrusted with. It’s your responsibility to preach the whole counsel and the full gospel, not your rendition of it!
*It’s builds dependency. If you limit people to milk, they will try and suck all the nourishment they can from that bottle. Giving them the solid food they need will cause them to grow tall and strong, and that might be a problem. When you make people dependent, they are easier to control.
*”Bless me father I have sinned” is how CJ secretly wishes to be greeted!
January 29th, 2009 at 6:09 pm
Greg, you said,
“4. Thus everyone tries really hard to appear Elect”
This is arguably the biggest problem with SGM, IMO. Everyone is pretending that they only struggle with certain kinds of sins – the kind that make you look good when you confess them (”I need to pursue my wife/husband more,” “I need to spend more time with God,” “I need to spend less time viewing/reading/listening to ‘worldly’ media,” etc.) You never hear anyone confessing more grievous sins, unless it’s in a testimony about how sinful and lost they were before they found SGM.
The facade they present is that all marriages are harmonious, all families are happy, all children are well behaved, all care groups have members that are the best of friends, and no one ever sins against each other in serious ways. Even though they claim to believe that there is no such thing as a lesser or greater sin, even though they claim to believe in total depravity, they seem on the face of things to avoid any sin that might classified as a “serious” sin. But as we know there are some families and couples in SGM that are dealing with very serious sins indeed.
Part of this is an issue from the top – CJ and the leaders behave as though their marriages and families are basically perfect. They say they aren’t perfect, but by constantly holding themselves and their families up as models to be followed, they send the message that they have it all together. And there is a lot of pressure on the little folks to be just like CJ and his family. All of this creates an environment where there is plenty of incentive to pretend that any serious problems or sins your family might be dealing with don’t exist, which only makes them worse since they are never addressed.
A few years ago a prominent member of CLC, who was also a high ranking member of the Bush administration, was arrested for shoplifting several items at Target. CLC got a lot of unwanted (in my reading) attention from the press at this time because of this man’s political position and his reputation as a devout evangelical. A couple other CLC members who lived in his neighborhood ended up being interviewed by the press shortly after the allegations came out. Their reaction was basically either to flat out deny that the allegations could be true, or to say that there must have been some sort of misunderstanding. I was particularly struck by this quote from one of his CLC neighbors:
“There are no secrets in our church, and I’ve known this family for years. Our church emphasizes openness about problems in our marriages or families, and if there was a problem, we would know. There wasn’t with this family.”
It struck me as a really, really odd thing for someone who believed in total depravity to say. ”There are no secrets in our church?” What church could possibly be that open? I still think that quote really encapsulates what is wrong with SGM. The leadership has the members truly convinced that it is a very open and honest atmosphere, when really many people from the leadership right down to the laity are being very dishonest about what is really going on in their lives and their churches (not all of them on purpose). And this dishonesty goes on for so long that people eventually become trapped in their lies – the longer they pretend everything is ok, the more difficult it becomes to be honest about their problems.
As it turned out, the charges were true and the man confessed. You can find one of the articles about it here.
January 29th, 2009 at 6:20 pm
Stein Meisterbrew said to:
Just say no to —Kool aid
So now that SGC Chesapeake has changed their stance doctrinally on a number of issues, are you still accusing them of preaching a counterfeit gospel. Be careful about making such a broad judgment. What part of their gospel do you think is counterfeit? Not all SGM churches are even preaching the exact same doctrine on every issue, as they may differ slightly.
Stein, what doctrinal stances are you referring to that have been changed at SGCC?
January 29th, 2009 at 6:24 pm
wip,
I remember reading that quote and thinking how strange it was!
January 29th, 2009 at 7:49 pm
Greg,
I’m glad you have entered the discussion because you have made some excellent points. As I have been researching SGM, I have begun to believe that there is a Puritanical mindset among the leaders and congregants. They seem to have adopted the values and to some degree the lifestyle of the Puritans because so many families homeschool and believe in “courtship”. From what I have been told, Carolyn Mahaney was raised as a Mennonite. Can someone verify that?
I don’t know whether you are familiar with Vision Forum, a catalog company that publishes and distributes books and other items to homeschooling familes. Doug Phillips heads up this enterprise, and he heavily promotes Puritan ideals. I wonder how many SGM families order VF materials?
As far as whether history will be repeated by SGM, I’m fairly certain that it will. If this ministry is not in the center of God’s will, there’s no question that it will not flourish long-term. That’s a Biblical law. C.J. Mahaney relinquished his position at CLC in 2004 in order to promote SGM full time. Look at all the problems that have surfaced that we are aware of. I fear they are just the tip of the iceberg. . .
SGM has such a tight grip on families, especially the children and youth, that I believe it will backfire on them. The micromanagement of families is not healthy, and there will be a tipping point.
In closing, I would like to point out that I recently attended a SGM church and communion was served. An announcement in the bulletin stated that if someone is “under church discipline” they should not participate. That would be a very strong motivation for trying to get along with everyone. Because of that one restriction, I have a feeling that there is much masquerading going on in SGM churches because no one wants to be humiliated by not being able to participate in communion. Absolutely incredible!
Greg, I hope you will enlighten us again with some of your knowledge. It has been very helpful to me.
January 29th, 2009 at 8:18 pm
Claireon;
“The teaching on the “centrality of the cross”is why I left SGM. I would say that, for me, it was the crux of the matter (haha little pun intended there).
I only heard preaching about the cross, singing about the cross, and declarations that we would “never move away from the cross”. It was like the cross was the main thing, and “keeping the main thing the main thing” was – the cross”.
Absolutely BANG ON – that was my key problem with SGM (UK-brand) as well. What used to trouble me the most was how – not only could I not make myself weep like C J Mahaney about the Cross, also certain sins never flourished in my life quite like the 2 years I spent in SGM (I now understand why – Romans 5:20: “The Law came in so that the transgression would increase” – preaching of the law = more sin).
Funny how despite C J’s obsession with “I am a walking quote” (remember that one!?) – he never quoted the biggest theological heavy-weight of all (the apostle Paul) who said;
“If Christ be NOT raised our faith is in VAIN“.
I do think that SGM (even unconciously) are crucifying and re-crucifying Jesus or at the very least never having a living conciousness of Him other than broken and bleeding on a Cross. Well who’s going to have a mind-set where you can defeat sin and live joyously? Much better to have a conciousness where He is seated and reigning at the Father’s right hand in heaven, waiting “until His enemies have been made His footstool”!!
January 29th, 2009 at 10:28 pm
Hi Dan,
“Well who’s going to have a mind-set where you can defeat sin and live joyously?”
Absolutely!
Christ has set us free from the dominion of sin. We are no longer living in the Kingdom of Darkness where sin reigns and has power over us. We are in the Kingdom of Christ, where He is Lord and where sin has been defeated.
“Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal bodies that you should obey it…”
We certainly are to put sin to death, and not allow it to reign in our lives. But we MUST do so from the position of victory and not defeat. When told to put on the full armor of God, it’s not so that we go into battle fearing loss. No, we can go boldly and with confidence that we will win because His grace is sufficient and He has stripped the enemy of His power. He has obtained our victory, so we must fight the good fight of faith from the standpoint of having all the benefits of the FULL GOSPEL: Victory is assured!
January 29th, 2009 at 10:38 pm
Wanda,
Regarding Carolyn Mahaney, I believe you are correct.
And if Carolyn was raised Mennonite, then so was her brother, Grant Layman, CLC pastor and the pioneer of “parent driven youth ministry.”
January 29th, 2009 at 10:53 pm
RT,
Your comment from 2:48 pm today is genius!
Thank you. What a concise way to put it in a manageable package.
Sid
January 29th, 2009 at 11:28 pm
One problem I see with SGM is that they always like to quote in Jeremiah where it says “the heart is sick” but seem to forget that in that same book of the bible God promises to give a heart to know him. Jer 24:7, Jer 32:39
They want to quote the part of the bible that justifies their position but not other scriptures that balance what they want to teach.
January 30th, 2009 at 12:01 am
Dan-
Good to see you again!
January 30th, 2009 at 12:03 am
Last night I mentioned that my wife & I were concerned with some of the same things that Scott & Connie wrote, in particular the hyperfocus on indwelling sin, etc., and that we have recently left a SG church.
But since we’re spending a good bit of time on how these doctrinal positions have been harmful, I thought I’d mention a couple that I’m thankful for. I was raised in a strictly Arminian theology, then coming into the fullness of the Spirit as a teenager, but continuing with the same theology that basically said that my salvation was ultimately up to me. Today at a men’s Bible study at our new church we were going over John 6:35-40, where we hear Jesus say, “All that the Father gives me will come to me” (v. 37 – Irresistible Grace) and “that of all He has given me I should lose nothing” (v. 39 – the persistence – or eternal security – of the saints). These are such precious promises that I have found very helpful. When I came to understand that I didn’t get myself saved, and I didn’t need to keep myself saved (that if I let go of Jesus, He will hold on to me!) resisting temptation became much easier. As we were talking about this, I realized that I had C.J. and our pastors to thank for helping me to come to an understanding of these and other truths. (Of course, coming to see myself as full of the indwelling Holy Spirit instead of full of indwelling sin has exponentially deepened these truths!)
Obviously, since that initial season of what should have been a healthy doctrinal shift, some alarming trends have developed over which we are in deep intercession for our brothers & sisters in SGM. And clearly there are also disturbing relational and practical issues that naturally occupy our most current concern. But it’s good for me to remember some of the many things I can be thankful for as well in our SGM experience.
January 30th, 2009 at 9:25 am
I’m wondering, did anyone take up yesterday’s challenge to live the day sin-condemnation free?
How did it work for you?
What did you learn about yourself? About God?
January 30th, 2009 at 9:34 am
No Doubt,
I think extremes are ALWAYS dangerous, and I appreciate your sharing your observations about SGM.
Sidney,
Thanks for the info. about Carolyn and her brother. SGM is so entrenched! The familial ties are absolutely incredible! Grant Layman looks like a younger C.J. I still don’t get the bald heads. Personally, I don’t find them attractive at all.
January 30th, 2009 at 9:34 am
As we stated in our previous post, we too are thankful:
“As we conclude this letter, let us make it clear that our love and thankfulness for the Cross of Jesus Christ has never changed. We love the Cross and we will be ever thankful for the wonderful teaching by John Butler and others on the Cross.
John Butler was our previous pastor.
January 30th, 2009 at 10:18 am
Sidney,
I thought you might be interested to know that I have been able to verify that Carolyn Mahaney was raised Mennonite. Here’s a link to an interview with C.J. Mahaney where he confirms that Carolyn’s dad was Mennonite:
http://www.newfrontiers.xtn.or.....j-mahaney/
In the interview, C.J. states:
“Now, Carolyn’s dad is a very conservative Mennonite”
January 30th, 2009 at 10:41 am
Just say no to ___Kool aid
What ‘counterfeit gospel’ are you referring to?
Dan
To hear the message of ‘The Cross’ was refreshing to me after coming out of a charismatic, name it, claim it, we have the victory sort of message. For me SGCC has a very balanced message.
January 30th, 2009 at 11:43 am
Hi Wanda,
You wrote, “C.J. Mahaney relinquished his position at CLC in 2004 in order to promote SGM full time”.
This is true. CJ is no longer the senior pastor of CLC. He handed over the leadership of CLC to Joshua Harris, who is now the senior pastor. CJ has described himself on several occasions as being “retired”. CLC is no longer his place of employment.
Yet, in the years since this has happened, it seems to me that Carolyn Mahaney, far from joining her husband in his retirement, is seen to be the leader of the women. She has been the SGM’s Women’s Leader, who instructs women that their primary role is to bear children and stay at home, that women should be subservient to men, and together with her daughters they promote the SGM agenda that the mission of women is to minister in the home, and that the home is to be the place of profession for SGM women, married and single.
I’ve never heard of a SGM committee for women or anything like that. In fact, I was very surprised to hear that the Chesapeake Church was going to enact a counseling ministry for women, specifically. I doubt Carolyn Mahaney was behind that idea. Yet, she remains at the helm of the SGM women’s ministry, with her daughters standing at her side (what else can they do?).
Ironic, isn’t it, that within an organization that limits women, Carolyn Mahaney is the only one that is allowed to have any sort of prominence. Why? Because she is CJ’s wife and the “model” for biblical womanhood. It is her voice, her example, that must be pointed to as THE ultimate example, and one that all CLC women should follow.
I remember when Josh Harris came to town. It seemed pretty obvious to me that the Mahaney’s expected Josh to marry their oldest daughter Nicole. Josh already embodied many of the SGM qualities, so he seemed fit to step into CJ’s shoes. Josh had easy access to the Mahaney daugthers living in the family home, and I’m certain every effort was made to demonstrate what capable, willing, and lovely homemakers they were. Especially Nicole, since she was the one who was expected to marry first (there had been a prophetic word about one of CJ’s daughters being married within the year, too).
I mean how perfect would that be? Josh would be the new mini-CJ and Nicole, as his wife, would be the mini-Carolyn! So, it was important to groom Josh to do things just right, and there would be no questions, no concerns if Nicole were the senior pastors wife. She would continue to be the perfect embodiment of the “SGM woman”, proudly proclaiming her revolution for women to stay at home and make that their sole purpose, their sole role. Here’s an example of Nicole’s instruction to women, even though she speaks as the wife of a relatively insignificant SGM youth pastor:http://www.cbmw.org/Journal/Vol-11-No-2/Future-Homemakers
But alas, Josh fell in love with a different woman who has remained completely marginalized and overshadowed by the Mahaney women. If Shannon Harris has a voice and can speak for the women of the church that her husband is the senior pastor of (!), it can only be in song.
January 30th, 2009 at 11:45 am
Stein,
Did you hear the Gospel Sunday morning. I listened to the message. If the Gospel was presented, I missed it. I was doing other things while I listened, so the Gospel may very well have been preached-I just didn’t hear it.
Help me out here…
January 30th, 2009 at 12:11 pm
Wow claireon! That’s an incredible story! Only minutes ago, I discovered that Joshua Harris actually lived with the Mahaneys for about a year before he married Shannon. This is definitely divine providence!
You probably know that Grant Layman, a pastor at CLC with Josh, is also Carolyn’s brother (as pointed out by Sidney at 10:38 p.m. yesterday). Here’s the adjective that I believe best describes Covenant Life Church: entrenched!
Thanks for the interesting info!!!
January 30th, 2009 at 12:25 pm
Greg,
Appreciate your sharing the ultimate fate of the Puritans, and your (unappreciated) question to your pastors:
“What makes you think you can adopt Puritan doctrine without repeating all of their mistakes? Are we any better than they were?”
The American Puritans did indeed go down in flames, between the cares of this world (Samuel Sewall lamented the irreligious character of Boston in the mid-1700s), and an emphasis on public expressions of piety that didn’t match their inward experience (the Northampon congregation that Jonathan Edwards led through revival in the 1730s and ’40s finally kicked him out, when he tried to restrict membership only to those who had had an authentic born-again experience!). They finally devolved into Christ-denying Transcendentalists and Unitarian-Universalists.
There’s never been any study in SGM into the historical, cause-effect relationship regarding the doctrines they hold. They have no interest in history – they’ve decided not even to learn from their own history! “Move along, folks, nothing to see here.”
January 30th, 2009 at 12:50 pm
Wanda: The whole family is pastors and in leadership there. Gary Ritucci, cj’s brother in law, was longtime marriage pastor and is now on staff with sGM. Grant Layman, CJ’s brother in law is a pastor and was head of family life and now is an executive pastor. Michael Bradshaw – cj’s Son-in-law is a pastor and head of children’s ministry. Brian Chesmore, cj’s other son-in-law is another pastor there and is a team leader in family ministries – he went from not being a pastor to being over all the older pastors remarkably quickly. I believe CJ’s brother used to be a pastor there but they had a falling out and he no longer attends.
January 30th, 2009 at 1:15 pm
what i don’t get is how they think the puritans ideals were any better. certianly the fruit of the movement itself in the very first generation bore no greater fruit than what was in the world at taht time. don’t get me wrong, i’m no puritan basher. i’ve mentioned before, i saw good things in them before CJ ever got on his kick. and when i tried to talk about them at homegroup all i got was cold, uninterested stares. (i’m still amazed that months later after CJ started bentering them about, everyone was at the greatest bookstore on earth snathcing up copies and talking about them at homegroup. Can somebody say, “Baaaa-aaaaa-aaahhhhhh”?) but to think they somehow hit the target and we need themt o show us the way… it’s silly. they made mistakes like everyone else.
here’s a better idea.. (I know, you’re dyignt o know MY opinion), there’s this book. It’s called the bible. It’s pretty good. if SGM leaders are going to study something, i suggest that. In its entiretly. And don’t go around making up rules if it seems to agree with one part but conflict with another. just stop it.
loving god nad others as yourself should take up enough of your time. i suppose if you ever readh the end of that and have perfected it, then you can move on to “deeper” things. as for me, i suspect i’ll die long before i ever “fulfill” that command.
January 30th, 2009 at 1:16 pm
Connie,
It may surprise you to know that your new friends the refuge commenters have been fairly critical of John Butler because of what they think they know about him. As has happened multiple times on this site and others like it, they post what they know, but sadly they are not in possession of all the facts or if they are, they aren’t sharing them. I can think of at least 4 “stories” on this site where that has been the case and no less than 3 on survivors.
I hope you will find a new church really soon and I’m sorry for all you’ve been through.
Joel
January 30th, 2009 at 1:20 pm
Presbyterian,
CJ’s brother Bill was still at CLC last I knew. I remember him being a CG leader, but never a pastor. I think they might have another brother who is not at CLC, but five of the six Mahaney siblings are at CLC (or were last I knew).
January 30th, 2009 at 1:26 pm
Joel,
Great comment. I’m sure that Connie was completely unaware that everyone who comments here are not one monolithic group who agree on everything.
Very helpful.
January 30th, 2009 at 1:31 pm
Hi all,
I am new to posting, but have been reading this blog for some time.
On the subject of focus on the cross and indwelling sin-I being a (higher anxiety) female with a penchant for focusing on inadequacy, have been afflicted, if you will, with a lifelong struggle that involved self condemnation with some fear of man thrown in. Much of what the Lord has done in my life has been in the direction of confirming his love, peace, and lifting that burden from me. Interestingly, one of the ministries he used was right around the corner from Jim when we lived in Titusville Florida-through the ministry of Peter Lord at Park Avenue Baptist Church. Also coincidentally with a bookstore. However, this one was directed towards glorious freedom in Christ, grace, and breaking the bonds of self condemnation and focus on our sin, the sin which Christ came to free us from. To be sure it was balanced with a call to holiness and our responsiblity as Paul implied to not take that GRACE as freedom from sin, but FROM THE LAW! One of Peter Lord’s book is called Turkeys and Eagles. If you struggle with condemnation, legalism, and whatever goes along with it, of course Scripture should provide that. But to enhance our focus there are people and ministries designed to point us back to Christ-Peter Lord, Ken Helser, Corrie Ten Boom are some who come to mind. Hannah Hurnard and Hinds Feet on High Places might be another. Try the Father Heart of God (another book) associated with the ministry of YWAM. You see I have been a needy individual- and God in his mercy has allowed me the privilege of (repeatedly) being brought back to his love by the body of Christ. It is a shame that it appears that many have found bondage in a body of believers called by the name of Sovereign Grace. There is a better way -the love and forgiveness of the Father, ministered by His Holy Spirit and through the life of His saints. He desires to do this for each of us today-over and over again.
January 30th, 2009 at 1:33 pm
Oops that should be freedom to sin in the above post. Oh how just one little word can mess things up!
January 30th, 2009 at 1:35 pm
Melody,
Small world. I went to Peter Lord’s church in the late sixties as a child (a neighbor took me) and was influenced by the kids’s Sunday school. Later, at 16, I was baptized there. I’m glad to hear Park Avenue Bap church is moving in grace!
January 30th, 2009 at 1:50 pm
Sheesh!
Our family went to Park Ave for a year..sometime around 1990-1991.
Welcome Melody!
January 30th, 2009 at 1:53 pm
Wanda, Keepinstep,
Thanks for your comments. The Puritan problem is increasingly relevant to SGM because for years we’ve seen them raise kids who know how to behave in public but have serious problems in private.
So, Wanda, are you serious? Do they deny communion to people under church discipline? Can any one get a bulletin from that congregation and verify the text? You can see how this would be heretical. The requirements for taking communion are saving faith and a clean conscience before the Lord. It is a serious matter because otherwise you could bring judgment on yourself. However, that determination is between the individual and God. It is not mediated by the church!
We all know that “church discipline” can be used for a variety of reasons and last a long time based on the judgment of leadership, but let’s take the most obvious case. A person is living in sin and refuses to cooperate with the Matt 18 process. Then one night he comes to his senses, repents before God, and goes to church in the morning. Should he not take communion and experience a cleansing reconciliation with his Father? Does he have to wait for the church to certify his acceptability before God? This is obviously not the heart of the Father but of the older brother (to use a parable). Add to this error all the compounded errors with of and when SGM places people under discipline, and you end up with a variety of people barred for communion for months, contrary to the will of God and the clear teaching of scripture. This grieves me more than just about anything I have seen at SGM.
January 30th, 2009 at 2:00 pm
$0.02 time-
Leadership is mentioned nowhere in Matt 18.
SGM leaders (along with others) have stolen Matt 18 from the church.
Give it back.
January 30th, 2009 at 2:46 pm
Jim,
I think you are right. “Tell it to the church” is practiced very differently now than it was in the first century. Note that both exhortations from Paul to the Corinthians concerning discipline (cast out the immoral brother and welcome him back) were in letters that were read out loud to the entire congregation. Not everyone will agree with this, but public exclusion and public acceptance were quite intentional and powerful. The Middle Eastern form of leadership is more likely to entrust decisions to a council of elder men (Elders should be elder!) than a single pastor or authority figure. These elder men may or may not have official positions in the church, but they must be respected by the community. Note that in Galatians 2, Paul sought out those of high reputation (NAS) or esteem (YLT) to confirm his ministry. What they appeared to be externally (as in official position) was of no concern to him. because false brothers had infiltrated the church leadership.
So, imagine what would happen if churches were governed by the consensus of the most respected people in community.
January 30th, 2009 at 2:50 pm
GIVE IT BACK.
Jim, I love how you make it so simple.
January 30th, 2009 at 2:57 pm
canary-that’s because I’m simple
. Actually, they don’t need to give it back, as it’s not theirs to give. We simply need to take it back.
Greg-you’re dead on in reference to the Corinthians. People can argue in favor of their traditions all day long. They are arguing with Scripture.
January 30th, 2009 at 3:17 pm
I’m studying American History this year with my son and had already wondered how in the world I would teach about the Puritans – we were reading a book (for children) which was written by a young boy who lived with William Bradford – it was a diary journal book, wish I could remember the name.
ANyway, in this journal of this young boy, he makes comments about the families who were Puritans, how the Puritans “ruled” things and man, could you see heaps of condemnation, judgmental, legalism, it was horrible! I’m shocked I missed this in school, and even more shocked SGM misses this when they raise Puritans up to be so, well, pure!
Puritans were legalists and Pharisees, clearly. They were judgmental. They did write some good things which we can glean from, but the focus is overwhelmingly on indwelling sin. Ever read Valley of Vision anyone? That book would just tear my heart open and pour salt on it, talk about no grace..no joy..no edification. All it did was beat me to a pulp spiritually, and as I became more aware what a loser I was, then I got this small feeling of – well, I feel bad now, so that must be good!
Sick. Twisted. Wrong.
January 30th, 2009 at 3:23 pm
by the way, I was having a conversation with a sister in the Lord about submission, and we suddenly realized that passive submission (making room for the man to lead) was very different from aggressive submission – which is manipulating the husband into doing what you think He should do – which I think in the end, causes the problems you’ve spoken of Jim, with men being emasculated.
I don’t know..just think that if SGM women were taught to simply make room for men to lead, the men would step up. But the women are taught to beat themselves down, how to manipulate their husbands into doing what they want, and then we all wonder why the women are depressed and fearful, and the men are lording over them oppressively.
It isn’t rocket science. God created us to be in certain roles. Why do we make it so complicated? You don’t have to sacrifice one for the other – that is, you don’t have to beat the woman down in order to give the IMPRESSION the man is elevated. In fact, beating the woman down spiritually does indeed give a “form” of male leadership simply because the woman is broken. But it doesn’t actually allow the man to learn how to lead, and it doesn’t train him in anything. It simply causes him to think that in order to be “in control” he has to keep his wife subdued and beat down. It is all an illusion. He really isn’t capable of leading, and she is broken now and feels lost because she is worse off than before.
January 30th, 2009 at 3:24 pm
“It may surprise you to know that your new friends the refuge commenters have been fairly critical of John Butler because of what they think they know about him.”
Well, that doesn’t sound very nice, Joel. :/
I have been on this site (and survivors) since day one, so I think it’s safe to say that I would be on of the “refuge commenters”. I went back and tried to find comments on John Butler on both sites, but only found ones from this page. Where did who write what about John Butler?
January 30th, 2009 at 3:32 pm
Ellie,
Yes! I was wondering the same thing. Joel, WHERE did WHO write WHAT about John Butler? Come on, batter up!
January 30th, 2009 at 3:34 pm
Welcome, Melody!
January 30th, 2009 at 3:39 pm
I could’ve missed it, somehow, Canary.
I mean, my googling skills aren’t the best, but they’re not too shabby…
January 30th, 2009 at 4:05 pm
Melody wrote, “On the subject of focus on the cross and indwelling sin-I being a (higher anxiety) female with a penchant for focusing on inadequacy, have been afflicted, if you will, with a lifelong struggle that involved self condemnation with some fear of man thrown in. Much of what the Lord has done in my life has been in the direction of confirming his love, peace, and lifting that burden from me.”
I think what she shares is a very important point to make. SGM harangues people about sin and specifically the sin of pride. However, women do not struggle with pride as often as they do with issues such as Melody mentioned: fears of inadequacy, self-condemnation, and the fear of man, etc.
Naturally, since SGM favors the position of the man over the woman, both in the home and in the church, the issues of sin that typically characterize men (pride) and the corresponding call to humility, are going to favor the male gender. In short, SGM’s message is mainly geared toward men. Women are ministered to indirectly, the assumption being that if your man-leader is doing what he should be doing, then you will benefit.
Sadly what happens is that women, who need to be encouraged and uplifted, end up feel downtrodded by all the talk about their need to be humble. They are humble! What they need is boldness! (a SGM no-no for women)
January 30th, 2009 at 4:31 pm
Joel, I have not read one thing about John Butler on this site or on Survivors except what I wrote about his wonderful teaching on the Cross. Maybe I missed something. Would you please clarify?
January 30th, 2009 at 4:45 pm
Ellie, Oh Queen of Googling, if you can’t find it, then me thinks Joel is wrong.
January 30th, 2009 at 4:45 pm
I’ve only posted once or twice before (and it may have been over at survivors, can’t remember).
It has been good to know that I’m not the only one struggling with problems I see at my church. I love the get well plan and think it is very much needed in my church as well.
One thing that has bothered me is the tone that is often times used. As I’ve shared this site though, people blow it off because of the extreme rhetoric and bizarre bunny trails that occur.
Personal attacks on people like Shannon Harris (by Clarion above) and assuming that the Mahaney’s have hedged her out appears to be mere speculation. Not all people like speaking in public. It could very well be that Shannon Harris does not desire to have a public ministry role. As a mom of young children, I can also totally understand if she has her hands full caring for her children, whereas someone like Carolyn who’s kids are “mostly” grown has more time to devote to a ministry like that.
I never imagined myself as a kool-aid drinker, but then I never allowed myself to fully entertain thoughts that there would be problems of this magnitude for a while. As my eyes have been opened, I’ve struggled with anger, hurt and bitterness. I think the system is dead wrong with how it is set up and agree that it needs a complete overhaul. I think it is damaging people spiritually (as well as physically, mentally with the abuse cases). But I also think we need to be careful in demonizing individual people.
People -a lot of people, are reading this and I think you guys will win more over if you stick to the facts and do it out of a heart of love that seeks to rescue people from a broken system.
Thanks again to the couples in Chesapeake who are taking a loving stand! Thank you to those of you who have suffered much, but come forward to warn others by telling your story. Thanks to those still in the churches who are working to open the eyes of their fellow brothers and sisters in Christ to the control, manipulation and false doctrine that is being utilized.
January 30th, 2009 at 5:13 pm
WiP,
this is a misplaced discussion. Here, and on the SUrvivors site, the supposed “connection” between SGM and Rome has been grossly overestimated. Not only were the few SGm leaders who used to be Catholic only raised very nominal Catholics, but they also embrace all the clichees abot Rome that RC Sproul and co. promote. Unfortunately, so do some on these blogs.
Transubstantiation does not have anything to do with the mess in SGM. Misguided interpretations of other, semi-reformed guys, a misinterpretation of the doctrine of sin, and a skewed and limited understanding of “Biblical counseling” has everything to do with it.
Furthermore, the kind of authority structure you pointed out is found not only in Rome, but also in Anglicanism, Orthodoxy and , most contrarily, the Amish and other Anabaptist groups (safe the office of the Pope).
So, please, I don’t think this horse needs to be beaten here: SGM’s mess is solely owed to the plagues that beset many other sectors of American evangelicalism, the heresies that have infiltered it since the 19th century and the practical inconsistencies and weirdnesses that have marked it out as narrow-minded in our time. That’s what this is about, not any supposed Rome-Gaithersburg connecton. Really – there is none.
Kris, do you remember the early comment on your blog who said that, after leaving an SGM church, the only place he could worship was a Catholic church (because thinsg did not seem “made up” or forced and because he did not have to rpive his belonging to the people of God by coinstant “good deeds” in thje forms of superficial holiness and service)?
January 30th, 2009 at 5:19 pm
Well, Joel could be reading some peoples’ “stories” (using quotes around stories sounds to me like he doesn’t believe what they said, but w/e) and could be thinking that the pastor in the “story” was JB. But I would hardly say that that means us “nasty ol’ sgmrefuge commentators” are ALL critical.
*I* don’t even know John Butler, so how could I be critical? Sounds like a bit of faulty reasoning though, if I am guessing correctly about Joel reading some peoples’ “stories”. >shrug<
January 30th, 2009 at 5:31 pm
Greg said:
“So, Wanda, are you serious? Do they deny communion to people under church discipline? Can any one get a bulletin from that congregation and verify the text?”
I don’t need to get a bulletin from Sovereign Grace Church in Apex because I am looking at it as I type this comment. It’s from Sunday, January 25, 2009 (last Sunday), and this is EXACTLY what it says:
LORD’S SUPPER
What is it? The Lord’s Supper is a gracious ordinance established by Christ through which we remember the atoning death of our Lord (Luke 22.14-20), reflect on our union as a church body, and anticipate His return (1 Corinthians 11.17-34).
Who can participate? Following the prescriptions of the Bible, we invite only those who are born-again by faith and not currently under church discipline to participate in the Lord’s Supper.
Greg, last Sunday was the first and last time I will ever visit a SGM church. I wanted to go and see if what I am reading on this blog and SGM Survivors are true. I felt it was important for me to check it out for myself rather than believing what others have to say. It was a significant experience because I got to hear “Mr. Humility” C.J. Mahaney speak in person. The topic of his sermon was Cravings and Conflicts.
Hank Hanegraaff often says: “Every heresy begins with a misunderstanding of the nature of God”. The SGM interpretation of Scripture concerning communion shows a profound misunderstanding of this sacrament. This misinterpretation most likely extends to a misunderstanding of the nature of Jesus Christ Himself.
In Protestantism the only restrictions for not partaking of the elements in this sacrament are if you have an unrepentant heart or if you have an unresolved grudge against your brother or sister in Christ.
Blessings,
Wanda
January 30th, 2009 at 5:51 pm
In response to the comments about Puritans, I found this post by Tony Reinke. http://spurgeon.wordpress.com/2007/03/19/puritan-legalism/#comment-21127
He basically says that because of the Puritan’s focus on the cross, there would have been no chance for legalism. Now I know you all have been talking more about the fact that there was indeed legalism among the Puritans (and Tony obviously doesn’t agree), but I just found it very interesting that an important guy in SGM believes that focusing on the cross will prevent legalism. This helps me to understand how SGM promotes all kinds of guidelines and suggestions without seeing it as legalism. They believe by focusing on the cross we remember that Christ is the only way we can have relationship with God. If we keep that in mind, we can then go on to making their suggested applications with no worries of legalism. They also make it clear that we are to apply their suggestions for Christian living in dependence upon God–again, can’t be legalism if we recognize dependence, right?
But what I wonder is this, if it’s O.K. to have the rules and “guidelines” so long as we keep our focus on the cross and act in dependence on God, why didn’t Paul just tell those Galatians that?
January 30th, 2009 at 6:13 pm
watching closely,
I was not attacking Shannon Harris at all. I have a lot of respect for her. I’m sure she’s a great gal!
January 30th, 2009 at 7:49 pm
My estranged husband was at long last put under church discipline in Spring 2007–I was still attending when we next had communion–and heard again the announcement that limiting who might partake. I wept for G–knowing he would have to let the cup and plate pass by him after so many years in CLC. He’s still attending there and–as far as I know–still letting the cup and plate pass by each month.
January 30th, 2009 at 8:37 pm
Papercup,
I don’t know if I’ve misread your comment, but it sounds as though you think I was arguing that there is a connection between SGM and the Catholic Church, when I was arguing the exact opposite. I agree entirely with your comment and made some of the same points as you have in my comments above (e.g. that the Orthodox and Anglicans also have an episcopal polity). I don’t think there is a connection there.
claireon,
I wouldn’t say your comment was an attack on S. Harris, but it did seem speculative. I don’t think we can know that N. was being groomed to marry Josh.
January 30th, 2009 at 10:06 pm
I’m sure I will be roasted for this comment :I too was feeling put off reading the blogs from this morning that were speculative and “chatty”. Some of this could be done by private email.
I agree with Watching closely at 4:45 :One thing that has bothered me is the tone that is often times used. As I’ve shared this site though, people blow it off because of the extreme rhetoric and bizarre bunny trails that occur. Personal attacks on people like Shannon Harris (by Clarion above) and assuming that the Mahaney’s have hedged her out appears to be mere speculation. People -a lot of people, are reading this and I think you guys will win more over if you stick to the facts and do it out of a heart of love that seeks to rescue people from a broken system.
I would also add to that Wandas comment about not finding CJ’s bald head attractive @ 9:34. Also, why the chit chat about the denominational roots of someones family and whether they come from a Mennonite background? I have ancestors of a Mennonite background and it didn’t effect me at all since I never even went to a Mennonite church. I hate to be negative but I can’t find refuge and truth here if I have to weed through so much hateful talk. I have no problem discussing faulty theology, indwelling sin or how someone was treated wrongly but the morning blog was really off track in revealing personal and sensational facts of an intimate nature. I think we all should be careful about naming names and then discussing people about things they can’t help or change which would hurt their feelings. I’m sorry but I also have heard false information (Joel @1:16) about people which I knew in fact wasn’t correct but I just don’t want to get into the facts of a personal nature which would be better left unspoken. Maybe just don’t comment or NICELY ask him what he was referring to. Maybe JB is a friend of his and he sees it differently. You all act like you don’t like him.
Theres not a one of us that knows the whole truth but God. I think he is allowing things to be exposed and looked at. This just isn’t an attack on SGM. God has done this thing. I’m hoping and praying that it will bring correction and changes that can help all the leaders and members of these churches so they can bring glory to God. Maybe we can pray about what we say on the blogs and lay it before God. It needs to please HIM.
January 31st, 2009 at 12:16 am
I personally believe that the *MAJORITY* of what’s said on the blogs is true. Folks may not agree on the “tone”, but the similarities, the consistency, and the LARGE number of SG churches involved is pretty revealing.
If the majority of what’s shared were NOT true, someone with some clout would be addressing it.
As for the “tone”, I see that as the passion and zeal of someone trying to rescue folks deep within a burning building, going about their daily business unaware that their life is in danger.
January 31st, 2009 at 12:18 am
Hey I just wanted to reiterate that I was not attacking Shannon Harris. I’m really sorry that it seemed like I was. If anything, I was trying to get after the real possibility that she has found herself completely overshadowed in her role. Given the fact the women’s ministry of the church her husband pastors had been defined by someone else, no doubt has made her feel, on some level, that she had nothing to offer, unless it served to support Mrs. Mahaney, who continues to play a prominent role.
I’m sure Shannon’s been a busy Mom. So was Carolyn Mahaney when she was younger, and so are her daughters now. Even so, you never hear of any contribution from Shannon Harris. I don’t blame her for that. But I can’t help but think that she hasn’t had much of a choice, nor the freedom, to do much else.
That’s not to say that Shannon Harris hasn’t had an opportunity to grow and develop her gifts, especially her singing talent, as part of the ministry of SGM. I’m sure she’s very grateful to be married to Josh and has enjoyed the privileges that have come with that. Yet, rather than being able to play more of a prominent role, as the other SGM senior pastor’s wives have done, her role has been assumed by others. Yes, she is young, and yes, she was new to SGM when she joined, and yes, she wasn’t raised in the church…but I can’t help but think that she has a lot to offer. My question is, is she able to contribute much beyond what has already been determined, as far as what the women are allowed to be taught? If not, it seems understandable to me that since Carolyn and her daughters fill her position, all they would need from Shannon would be to echo their voices.
Again, I could be wrong, but I can’t help but feel (and this is based on my experience in SGM) that no one wants to be a clone, including Shannon Harris. Yet, that is what SGM likes to produce, in both the men and the women. Also, with all the emphasis on resisting “feminism”, since it’s an enemy to “the gospel”, surely the leadership of SGM feels they need to run a very tight ship, especially as regards the message the women hear through the church. If someone in Shannon Harris’ position were to start stepping up and encouraging women in such a manner that went against the SGM grain, even somewhat, think of the damage that would cause! No, unless her message to women were perfectly orchestrated and harmonized with that of Carolyn’s, then not only will she not feel the freedom to contribute, she will be barred from doing so.
Personally (and this is just my opinion) I can’t help but think she feels trapped. Rather than criticizing her, I want you all to hear me feeling concerned for her. Because, in truth, I am.
January 31st, 2009 at 12:50 am
Ok here’s how I see it Lion Heart
1. Wanda mentions his bald head. Why? because there are a fair number of non balding pastors who are shaving their heads to look like their leader. This sort of thing is a bit on the weird side which also goes along with other weird happenings at said churches.
2. Something is very bad when one ministry spawns at least three sites of folks who have had some very odd and unBiblical things happen to them. Hearsay? Well, yes but there seems to be a lot of similar stuff going on in different churches under SGM.
3 Is anger expressed? Absolutely. Jesus called the Pharisees, “snakes.” Maybe He wasn’t nice? As people come out of an abusive environment, they begin to better see what happened and will go through a period of anger in expressing their experiences and relationships. This anger is normal. Frankly, I am sick and tired of all of this “stop passing bad reports.” If they don’t express it, they will have deeper emotional problems as time passes. And, if these experiences are anywhere near what they claim, then they should be angry. And SGM has mega screwed up!! And needs to be exposed.
4.If a family feels estranged or has strange things happen to them, they gain strength to finally leave their abusive situation by speaking to others who have similar experiences. The only way to really look at what is going on in SGM is to expose it to the light.
5.SGM needs to expose the teaching that is occurring in the ultrasecret Pastors College. I have asked for a list of pastors who have graduated, a detailed teaching plan, etc. No going. Every seminary in the world is totally open about graduates, curriculum, accreditation, independent evaluation. Not so with this crowd. This is not normal and is not Christian, Biblical, etc! It is cult like and fits with the background of Mahaney and the shepherding movement.
I would suggest before some of you guys who criticize what these people have been though and how they express it, you first take the plank out of your own eyes…another Matthew admonition. Cut the baloney and cut the excuses. And show compassion to these folks. And for crying out loud, get some independent people from outside of SGM to evaluate what is going on. Good gracious!
Oh, and I am not, nor ever will be a member of SGM, thank heavens!
January 31st, 2009 at 8:01 am
Lion Heart said:
“I would also add to that Wanda’s comment about not finding CJ’s bald head attractive @ 9:34.”
Wanda said (@9:34):
“Thanks for the info. about Carolyn and her brother. SGM is so entrenched! The familial ties are absolutely incredible! Grant Layman (Carolyn’s brother) looks like a younger C.J. I still don’t get the bald heads. Personally, I don’t find them attractive at all.”
For those of you who may have missed my previous comment about bald heads to which Lion Heart referred, I have posted it above. I’m sorry that dissenting opinions ARE NOT allowed in SGM. I find the double standard quite amusing. C.J. can stand in the pulpit and lambast my Alma Mater by repeating over and over and over again “I HATE DUKE!!!” But I’m not “allowed” to give my opinion about bald heads. There’s no question that I wouldn’t do very well in a Sovereign Grace church. I’m far too opinionated, and uniformity is extremely offensive to me. I don’t want to be like everyone else — I want to be the woman God created me to be.
To the best of my knowledge, Michael Jordan was one of the first guys to shave his head, and I didn’t like his either!!! I guess C.J. and others want to “be like Mike”. I have inquired about why all the bald heads in SGM several times on this site and SGM Survivors, and I haven’t gotten an adequate response. I’m still hoping someone will “enlighten” me. I agree with Dee. It seems EXTREMELY weird to me that so many SGM guys want to look like C.J.
Now I want to address my previous comments about Carolyn Mahaney’s Mennonite background, and once again I must disagree with Lion Heart. It has EVERYTHING to do with SGM! There are a number of similarities between how women are treated in Mennonite families and how they are treated in SGM.
FYI – I plan to do some extensive research on Mennonite beliefs and behavior, and I will let the bloggers here know what I discover. Looking forward to further discussions on this topic.
January 31st, 2009 at 11:00 am
“Now I want to address my previous comments about Carolyn Mahaney’s Mennonite background, and once again I must disagree with Lion Heart. It has EVERYTHING to do with SGM! There are a number of similarities between how women are treated in Mennonite families and how they are treated in SGM.”
Wanda,
Somewhere in an old thread on the survivors site there was a pretty lengthy discussion on this topic. Someone with good “search” skills could probably find it.
OF COURSE her Mennonite background would contribute to some degree. Everyone’s background contributes to the way they do things and their belief system to “some” degree. That’s why as Christians we MUST filter *EVERYTHING* through the grid of scripture. We simply cannot trust that what “man” tells us is biblical, is in fact *BIBLICAL*.
And yes…that includes our pastors. Don’t act shocked, it’s all through the bible. There would be no need for the Holy Spirit to guide us or an emphasis put on our own PERSONAL reading of God’s Word and Bible study if pastors or some modern day “apostle” could impart *PURE BIBLICAL* knowledge.
Nope…man is man, and God is God. A “godly” man can share what he *thinks* God is saying, but man is NOT my final authority on the issue, no matter how knowledgeable or “mature” a Christian he may be. I’m going to ALWAYS test it, because God (knowing the fallability of even the BEST of men) told me to do so.
SGM folks, please consider that your pastors COULD be wrong. That, my friends, is why these blogs exist.
-Kindred
January 31st, 2009 at 10:33 pm
Yes, my research on the Mennonites is underway!
I just stumbled across the following website, and I wonder whether SGM will ever take steps to prevent the kind of abuse that Esther and others have had to endure:
http://www.gameo.org/encyclope.....48647.html
If you click on this link, here’s what you will find.
A Resolution on Male Violence Against Women (in the) Mennonite Church, 1993
Background
In February 1992 a group of men from the Mennonite Church and the General Conference Mennonite Church gathered in Colorado for a consultation. The clearly stated focus was to have male church leaders confront the violence being perpetrated against women. The experiences and leanings of that weekend had a profound impact resulting in confession, repentance and renewal for the participants. Following that event a call has come for the Mennonite Church to adopt a statement on male violence against women.
Preamble
Too often in our biblical teaching and practice, we have distorted the Genesis account to mean that the curse was part of God’s creation order. We must be clear–the rule of man over woman is the result of sin. In Jesus, the redemption, this curse has been lifted. Jesus restores the blessing and shows how to live in the New Creation “like one who serves” not as Gentiles who “lord it over.” (Luke 22:25-26).
We believe that life is a gift from God and that women and men are created equally in God’s image with inherent worth and dignity and entitled to the same respect. The fall into sin has shattered God’s intended mutuality of women and men, distorting personal relationships and resulting in dominance and violence of men against women. We believe that the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ has saved and transformed us from these broken relationships and that Jesus calls us to live in love and harmony with all (Genesis 1:27; Genesis 2:20-24; Galatians 3:28; Ephesians 5:21, 25-33).
However, we live in a society whose structures imply men’s power and superiority over women. Within that system too many Mennonite fathers, husbands, employers and even church leaders have used their power in oppressive and violent ways. They have excluded women from opportunities, silenced their ideas and protests, sexually harassed them and violently abused them.
We confess that we, women and men, have by our silence consented to the system of male dominance and to individual acts of abuse. We also confess that while we have claimed to be a peace-loving people, we have not effectively translated our theology into peaceful interpersonal relations in our homes, churches and institutions.
Resolution
We the delegates gathered at Philadelphia 93 have heard the word of the brothers calling us to acknowledge the sin of male violence against women. We are aware that more work needs to be done on the broader expressions of abuse. There is difference among us on the biblical interpretation expressed in the preamble so we accept it as a challenge to further study and dialogue.
Therefore as delegates we resolve:
to break the silence and admit that there are Mennonite men who abuse women in various forms such as verbal abuse, psychological control, sexual harassment, battering wives and children, committing incest or rape;
to listen to, believe and feel the pain of women who have been violently abused or sexually harassed by men;
to declare that abuse is a violation of the marriage covenant and that persons are free to be sheltered from exposure to acts of violence while working at the confrontation and healing processes.
to hold abusers accountable for their actions, to call them to repentance, and to support them toward healing.
to provide safety for abused women and children;
to hold church agencies accountable for dealing appropriately with abuse that occurs within their organizations;
to model, within our congregations, alternative and counter-cultural ways of being male and female; to practice parenting skills that help families learn how to share power and resolve conflict peacefully;
to encourage study in our congregations and church schools of issues of violence against women. (Suggested resources include these materials prepared by Mennonite Central Committee: The Purple packet: wife abuse; Broken boundaries: child sexual abuse, and Crossing the boundary: sexual abuse by professionals. Lessons 9 and 10 on “Widening the circle through care of victims and survivors” are in the WMSC and Women in Mission resource packet 1991-92. See also Sexual abuse in Christian homes and churches, Herald Press (March, 1993) by Carolyn Holderread Heggen.)
The Mennonite Church General Assembly approves the statement “A Resolution on Male Violence Against Women,” and calls on our conferences, congregations, schools, agencies and individual members to test the biblical and theological assumptions being made, to give serious attention to its message and full its resolutions in a spirit of prayer and repentance.
Mennonite Church General Assembly July 31, 1993
I am EXTREMELY proud of these Mennonite men who have resolved to protect women and children in their church. I pray that SGM will follow their lead.
February 1st, 2009 at 9:54 am
I begged Adam Malcolm and Grant Layman to put the CCEF booklet on Domestic Violence in the “world’s best bookstore” with the other CCEF booklets. I begged them to provide training to caregroup leaders about domestic violence. I begged them to talk about it from the pulpit at a Family Meeting. I told them that in a congregation this big that there were certainly other families as broken and as hurting as we were–that there were women who needed to know that it’s not okay to be demeaned, intimated, and hurt, that it’s not part of the plan, and that it’s not their fault.
They said no, no, no.
February 1st, 2009 at 10:15 am
If you go to the link I cited above about the Resolution on Male Violence Against Women in the Mennonite Church, you will be able to read the context of this resolution. Here’s what it says:
“The statement arose during a time of heightened cultural awareness of sexual abuse by men against women in North American culture. The early 1990s were also a time when several highly-publicized cases of sexual misconduct and abuse by North American Mennonite church leaders were in the church news.”
Here’s what all of us MUST resolve to do. We should keep these testimonies of abuse in SGM churches front and center until the leaders come up with a similar resolution for Sovereign Grace Ministries. I hope more SGMers who have been abused, yet silenced, will come forward with their personal testimonies. By shining the light on the dark side of SGM, the victims will be a catalyst for bringing a similar resolution within SGM. Please SPEAK UP so the abuse will STOP!!!
February 1st, 2009 at 11:07 am
acme-
That makes no sense at all. Why would they not include the booklet alongside the other CCEF booklets.
I was not aware that you were dealing with Adam Malcolm at CLC. That explains a lot.
An IT guy becomes a Christian in 1998 and by 2001 is being groomed by Maresco for leadership?
Who is he related to?
February 1st, 2009 at 12:00 pm
I realize that much of what is written here is intended to provide mutual comfort to people who have left SGM churches and are still dealing with their disillusionment and grief. But many of your comments also seem to be directed at SGM leaders, pointing out perceived errors and suggesting needed changes.
Although SGM probably has someone monitoring this blog at least out of curiousity or for defensive purposes, human nature being what it is, they may not be reading your words with an openness to hear ways that God may be offering them needed correction through your comments (perhaps in part because your comments include such a wide mixture of personal experiences, opinions, and emotions, some of which could dilute your primary message and even detract from your credibility).
If you do want to encourage positive change in SGM, would it not be wise to organize your primary concerns in a carefully drafted letter that you could present directly to SGM leadership, ideally in conjunction with a face to face meeting that allowed genuine dialogue? It sounds like many of you have attempted this kind of direct communication with pastors in local SGM churches, apparently with mixed results. Has anyone attempted it with the leadership of SGM itself? If so, how did they respond? If not, is this worth considering?
February 1st, 2009 at 12:06 pm
Lynn-the letter in the main post of this thread was sent to a member of SGM’s leadership team.
February 1st, 2009 at 12:27 pm
Jim
Was that letter from Scott and Connie or from you?
Was there a response?
Do you know of any other attempts to communicate widescale concerns directly to SGM leadership? If so, what was the result?
February 1st, 2009 at 12:59 pm
It was from Scott and Connie. I don’t know if there was a response, but this is their thread, so let’s ask them.
Scott and Connie, did you receive a response from the a team member this was sent to?
February 1st, 2009 at 1:03 pm
Wanda,
“Now I want to address my previous comments about Carolyn Mahaney’s Mennonite background, and once again I must disagree with Lion Heart. It has EVERYTHING to do with SGM!”
This is a nonsensical discussion. The generalisations you make here distract from the discussions about SGM and are marked more by a lack of knowledge and sensitivity towards Mennonites than by anything else.
For one, I don”t think you really know wnaything about Mennonites. Second, it is totally unclear WHAT kind of Mennonite background Mrs Mahaney has. Mennonites come in all stripes and colors. From horse-and-buggy only, to middle class suburban, to liberal or gay. I have a Mennonite friend who does peace and justice mission among Latinos in Chicago. MCUSA ordains women, and uses the NRSV, which is Satan’s translation to any faithful SGMer who loves the ESV.
You hope to prove that you associate SGM with Mennonites, and some of the dirt will stick on SGM – assuming, of coursem that the label “Mennonite” is dirt”.
Have you EVER been in a Mennonite church? Have you EVER met a female Mennonite pastor (yeah, there’s plenty of them)?
Stop those insensitive and speculative ramblings and please… get back on topic.
“FYI – I plan to do some extensive research on Mennonite beliefs and behavior, and I will let the bloggers here know what I discover. ”
Yes, please do let us know how quickly your prejudices about Mennonites wil be dispelled. Before you start your “extensive research”, maybe consult the experts in Goshen, IN, Harrisburg, VA or Winnipeg, ON. Or visit the church’s website: mennoniteusa.org
And FYI: there is one Mennonite teaching in the theology department of your Alma Mater, and a few Mennonite grad students, some of them female, there. You say “Looking forward to further discussions on this topic.” I say: Aah… not really.
And since I’m already getting personal: as far as I have observed your comments here, you have never been part of an SGM church. If the lust for speculation and “scandal” is greater than your care for those hurt by SGM than please be more careful with what you write. This is not the first time I found myself reading your thoughts and thinking that everyone would have been better served if you kept that to yourself. Don’t be surprised at Lion Heart’s comments and don’t be too quick to respond just with a flippant “I dont agree”, sister.
Example: “Wow claireon! … Only minutes ago, I discovered that Joshua Harris actually lived with the Mahaneys for about a year before he married Shannon. This is definitely divine providence!”
The cause of this blog is too important to become blogdom’s kindergarten!
February 1st, 2009 at 1:10 pm
Welcome back, Fam!
Famagusta has given me input in the past that has been extremely helpful.
Sometimes we all need help in keeping our eye on the ball.
February 1st, 2009 at 1:24 pm
LynnM,
You said:
Although SGM probably has someone monitoring this blog at least out of curiousity or for defensive purposes, human nature being what it is, they may not be reading your words with an openness to hear ways that God may be offering them needed correction through your comments (perhaps in part because your comments include such a wide mixture of personal experiences, opinions, and emotions, some of which could dilute your primary message and even detract from your credibility).
Respectfully, many if us went to our leaders in total humility and love. It didn’t matter. They won’t listen to the underlings because your above thoughts are how they think. None of us “below” them were ever perfect enough in heart to ever correct them. Any type of heart sins they conclude are within us “detracted from our credibility”. Again, respsectfully, this excuse is invalid, like a smoke screen. I feel that, somehow, this blog is being taken off course by people who are giving us the
old SGM bull – because your motives aren’t pure (according to them), your stories are untrue, not credible, gossip, slander, etc. Come on folks, we are being distracted from and even intimidated by this kind of talk. People won’t come on to share their experiences if we play the SGM card of questioning their heart or motives. No one can know another’s heart except God.
February 1st, 2009 at 1:25 pm
acme,
Did they ever give you a reason why not? That really doesn’t make any sense. I wonder if this all goes back to the SGM tendency to pretend that they have no serious problems in their families. One implication of refusing to have information on domestic violence available to church members is that there is no domestic violence going on in the church (which of course the pastors know is not true).
Acme, did Grant and Adam at least acknowledge that your husband was being abusive? Did they believe you?
February 1st, 2009 at 1:40 pm
Jim,
While we’re waiting for Scott and Connie to respond, could you answer my other question: Do you know of any other attempts to communicate widescale concerns directly to SGM leadership? If so, what was the result?
February 1st, 2009 at 1:53 pm
Uh oh, I think I just got ignored.
February 1st, 2009 at 2:06 pm
Dear Famagusta,
Thanks for reading my comments. I’m sorry if I have offended you.
You said:
“You hope to prove that you associate SGM with Mennonites, and some of the dirt will stick on SGM – assuming, of course that the label “Mennonite” is “dirt”.”
Would you consider you comment to be inflammatory? I think it’s a lot more outrageous than anything I have written because that’s not why I’m conducting research on Mennonites. I am only in search of God’s truth.
By the way, did you read my comment about Mennonite men (posted on 1/31/09 at 10:33 pm)? Here it is again:
“I am EXTREMELY proud of these Mennonite men who have resolved to protect women and children in their church. I pray that SGM will follow their lead.”
I believe my comment proves your accusations to be false. Since you seem to have misunderstood my intentions for posting on this blog, let me share with you and others my heart. I’m deeply concerned that there may be women and children in SGM who are being harmed in some way because of its authoritarian structure. Mennonite leaders, who were also authoritarian, confessed their sins back in 1992 (again see my post on 1/31/09 at 10:33 pm). I fear that the same kinds of abuse may be occurring in SGM. If so, I’m striving (along with others here) to be a catalyst for change.
I have made the assumption that you are male, so correct me if I’m wrong. If I am correct about your gender, I think you and other SGM men should be aware of the following resolutions made by Mennonite men. They have resolved:
to break the silence and admit that there are Mennonite men who abuse women in various forms such as verbal abuse, psychological control, sexual harassment, battering wives and children, committing incest or rape;
to listen to, believe and feel the pain of women who have been violently abused or sexually harassed by men;
to declare that abuse is a violation of the marriage covenant and that persons are free to be sheltered from exposure to acts of violence while working at the confrontation and healing processes;
to hold abusers accountable for their actions, to call them to repentance, and to support them toward healing;
to provide safety for abused women and children;
to hold church agencies accountable for dealing appropriately with abuse that occurs within their organizations;
to model, within our congregations, alternative and counter-cultural ways of being male and female; to practice parenting skills that help families learn how to share power and resolve conflict peacefully;
to encourage study in our congregations and church schools of issues of violence against women.
If these kinds of abuses are happening in the SGM “Family of Churches”, let me assure you that God is angry about it, and He will not bless SGM long-term. Right now he is giving SGM leaders time for repentance. I’m praying that SGM will make the right decisions going forward with regard to the abuse of women and children.
February 1st, 2009 at 2:08 pm
w-i-p
Adam and Grant did acknowledge that G was being abusive–and the abuse in another family. In that case, the wife had to pursue a divorce in order to get a judge to grant her alimony and child support. I was able to provide for my kids.
To the best of my recollection (and yes, at one meeting I had my friend D with me–who was the first CLC person to take my concerns seriously–and asked these same questions) they said they couldn’t possibly address ALL the problems folks might have because that would take too long to address each issue specifically, so they would have to trust that folks would bring up their issues to leaderships when they would, that the Lord would lead–and let’s take a look at my heart issues here.
Here’s an actual quotation from an email I received in response to a lengthy email about a weekend when series of smaller incidents (including G finding the minivan in a movie theater parking lot to leave an angry note) escalated into G scaring the bejeebas out of me and the kids with him screaming and crying on the telephone to a middle school student and a KINDERGARDNER.
Adam wrote, “Without reiterating or going into the issues pertaining to Gary’s sinful anger (which can not be minimized in all this), and just focusing on you for a minute, it does appear that you are trying to control things a bit too much. To me, time between Gary and his children is far more important than maintaining their schedules. That’s not to say that schedules are unimportant and meant to be ignored by Gary. However, if circumstances caused schedules to be missed by a bit (including the possibility for poor time management), conflict is avoided by not focusing on that, and if Gary is able to spend some quality time with Becca and Jake, then the most important has taken place. From the details below, you seem to be focused on the details of Gary’s every move in a way that leaves little room for grace. So I would agree that Drew’s assessment appears to have merit.”
February 1st, 2009 at 2:11 pm
Hi Lynn,
Have you actually read the stories here and at Survivors.com? In almost every instance, a brick wall was hit when they tried to bring their situations to someone higher in leadership. It was an effort in fruitlessness to talk to their own SGM pastor, much less anyone in leadership above him. The leadership ranks at SGM seem impenetrable.
Here at The Refuge, Jim has given SGM leadership every opportunity to communicate, either privately or publicly on the blog. To date, his offer has not even been acknowledged, much less utilized (to their own detriment). By the way, the offer is still open.
Here is an excerpt from the post “From “Esther” in Chesapeake”… just in case you haven’t read it…
From “Esther”: I finally felt so desperate that I decided to “widen the circle” even larger. I would make an appeal for help from the pastor over the Virginia Region. We kept missing each other on the phone. He finally left me a message and encouraged me to go back to the pastors about my situation. I was very uncomfortable about contacting this individual in the first place, so I didn’t try to call him again. However, I did send him a copy of my letter containing all of my grievances against the pastors at Sovereign Grace Church in Chesapeake. I never heard anything from him other than his phone message to go back to the pastors. I also sent a copy of my letter to all three members of the Apostolic Team. I included a letter specifically to the Apostolic Team of other concerns I had about the movement itself. Only one member of the team responded directly to me. He suggested that I go back to the pastors. I knew then that they were not going to get involved. One of the apostolic team members, and I believe by accident, included my name on an email that he sent back to the pastors at the Chesapeake Church. This was after I sent my letter with all of my grievances and my appeal for help. He indicated that he did not want to be included in the loop of emails. He said that he had been around enough years to know how these things morph. If he got any more emails except if (I), and he used my name, sent one directly to him, otherwise he would just delete them and not open them up. This made me feel more helpless and uncared for.
February 1st, 2009 at 2:31 pm
Canary, I agree with you–and am not ignoring you. I’m feeling a little ignored myself–I had an AHA! moment in a post over in survivor’s Why?–and no one has mentioned it at all.
I tried over and over again, using my calmest voice, using my most rational examples, using scripture and other “authoritative” texts, focusing on establishing my ethos (credibility) and my logos (logic) and totally playing down pathos (any emotion at all)–and they could NOT hear me. I tried writing, speaking, bringing a friend, bringing my mom, until finally (AFTER YEARS!) I was convinced that it was pointless to continue any more.
February 1st, 2009 at 2:43 pm
Canary,
I didn’t intend to ignore you. I failed to hit refresh before replying to Jim, so I didn’t see your comment until mine got up.
I’m not questioning any one’s motives; that’s God domain. All I’m asking is whether you all have considered other, possibly more effective ways to communicate your concerns directly to top SGM leadership. I don’t doubt that individual appeals to local pastors were sometimes brushed aside for improper reasons. From what Carol and Acme are writing, it appears that efforts to communicate higher up in the SGM leadership structure were not productive either. I can imagine how frustrating this must have been for them.
The Bible and church history are replete with examples of leaders who repeatedly refused to hear legitimate appeals from the people they were called to serve or from prophets sent by God himself. If they stopped their ears too long, God eventually brought his judgment on them. But there are also examples where God moved people to keep trying and praying, and by his grace they eventually found a way to approach those leaders in an effective way (often because God had gone ahead of them to soften hard hearts), and the message finally registered.
However poorly SGM pastors and leaders have responded to your appeals in the past, isn’t it possible that God may be using recent events to soften the hearts of the SGM leadership team so that they might be able to hear and respond appropriately to a united and carefully drafted appeal made directly to them? Just something to pray about …
February 1st, 2009 at 3:11 pm
Carole,
Well said. Thank you for reminding us again what we are fighting against. Hugs!
Acme,
If I could knock knuckles with you, I would (like my kids do when one of them says something cool). There is a reason my family gave me the name “canary”. Something smells foul in this here mine. Too many people using the manipulative counter-punch of gossip/slander/ motive of the heart that most of us remember well from our days in a controlling church. It doesn’t matter if you crawl into a leader’s office on your knees, smacking yourself with a whip – they are not going to listen. I’m not even sure they would listen if a donkey spoke it. Maybe things will seem to change for a bit after the Ches church thing, but SGM would have to change their whole polity to ever effect their behavior towards the saints.
I just want to make sure this blog isn’t overtaken and distracted by the gossip/slander argument. Many of us sheep were slandered by leaders, so that stone should not even be thrown. WE WANT THE CONTROL AND MANIPULATION TO STOP! We want the legalism to be revealed, to be shown for the false gospel that it is. We want people to find their freedom in Christ. That is my heart, anyway.
Acme, I meant that I was being ignored by LynnM. who did not respond to my response to her post. But I am so glad you spoke up, ’cause I was feeling a little “out there”. Your experience with leadership is like ours was. I feel for you. Isn’t it great to be free in Christ? Doesn’t it make you love Him even more?
February 1st, 2009 at 3:12 pm
LynnM,
Whoops, I posted before I read your recent one. Sorry!
February 1st, 2009 at 3:18 pm
LynnM., You asked,
However poorly SGM pastors and leaders have responded to your appeals in the past, isn’t it possible that God may be using recent events to soften the hearts of the SGM leadership team so that they might be able to hear and respond appropriately to a united and carefully drafted appeal made directly to them? Just something to pray about …
My answer at this point is, no. That is why many of us are here. Have they responded to Scott and Connie’s ”get well plan”? Have they responded to the stories that we’ve all shared (have you read them)? The leaders remain silent.
I’m sorry again for jumping to conclusions about you ignoring my post. Bad form on my part…:)
February 1st, 2009 at 3:20 pm
Don’t let it get to you, ladies. There’s times I feel I’m being ignored but then I’ll read a comment where the commenter is using the “stuff” I just posted earlier…and sometimes even receiving praise from the other commenters for it. LOL.
It’s just the way blogging goes sometimes. Many times folks only have a limited amount of time to read & comment. And some don’t feel a blog constitutes the same “rules of conduct” that a polite conversation would.
So don’t take it personal, ladies. I value EVERYTHING you say and I SELDOM have time to respond.
BUT *I DO* TRY TO REMEMBER EVERYONE IN PRAYER!
February 1st, 2009 at 3:28 pm
Kindred Spirit,
Again, I wasn’t meaning I felt ignored as a whole, just by LynnM., but I assumed wrong on that score and apologized. Thanks, though, for the encouragement. This whittle birdie stuck her whittle footie in her BIG mouth…
February 1st, 2009 at 3:40 pm
Jim and LynnM –
Yes, I received a response on 16 Jan from the apostolic team member with whom I was communicating.
He thanked me for my input and addressed several of the points in my letter that were being addressed by leadership (pastors). He stated that the suggestions/ideas involving church polity that I had addressed indicated that I had fundamental doctrinal differences with SGCC and SGM.
I think one important point for us all to consider is that it’s one thing to talk about change – but it is an entirely different (and more difficult) thing to enact change. I hope that all those who remain in SGM churches will actively look for signs of true change; be alert, awake, and involved.
February 1st, 2009 at 3:48 pm
So, basically, thank you, Scott, and here’s the door.
February 1st, 2009 at 3:48 pm
Thank you, Scott.
February 1st, 2009 at 3:50 pm
Thank you, Scott, for filling us in.
February 1st, 2009 at 4:36 pm
Wanda,
I have the exact same concerns as you – about SGM. I want this blog to be a success, a big one. It is a God sent and has saved me from more than you know.
What in the world are you trying to do?
The Mennonite church is NOT what you think it is – that’s all I’m saying. You went inthis hunting for abuse cases, and found them – as you would with other churches. So, what? There are abuse cases today, too, just as there are some in other denominations.
You probably never visited a Mennonite church, you have no idea they ordain women, and some are inclusive of homosexuals. You tried to use the popular clichees of Mennonites as patriarchal and male dominated in order to smear SGM; with a potential connection . This is nonsense and does not touch SGM at all.
February 1st, 2009 at 5:49 pm
Famagusta,
You and I are obviously not on the same page, and I’m sorry about that. What am I missing? Mennonites, ordained women, and homosexuals do not usually go together. Sorry you are making a generalization that certainly does not describe all Mennonite churches. By the way, I am more familiar with conservative Mennonites than you may realize.
What I have attempted to do in my previous comments is share information about a conservative group of Mennonites who were authoritarian in their treatment of women. They admitted their sin and came up with a set of resolutions to prevent the further abuse of women and children in their churches. I am recommending that SGM come up with similar resolutions because I believe they have similar problems in their congregations.
At least we both agree that we want this blog to be a success. I didn’t realize I was making it such a failure. It would be helpful for me to know your gender in future dialog.
February 1st, 2009 at 6:16 pm
Okay, Famagusta, this clearly is a sensitive point for you–and I think it is so sensitive for whatever reason that you’re missing the point.
The thread is about ways SGM can improve, given Esther’s problems at SGC specifically with counseling given in an ongoing domestic abuse situation. Wanda’s list adds on some other ideas/steps that SGM can take to improve, specifically about handling domestic abuse.
February 1st, 2009 at 6:30 pm
Well, I have to agree with what Wanda is doing. In order to understand what is happening in a new movement, one must study its roots. I took a course in college called the Psychology of History. We studied three famous men, one of whom was Hitler. Hitler’s mom was crazy and would take him on walks when he was a little boy and she would purposely relieve herself on the lawns of people she disliked. She actually was Jewish on one side and particularly hated the Jews in her family. Well, anyone could see one cause of Hitler’s fascist beliefs.
Who we are, where we come from, etc. is part of God’s sovereign plan for our lives. I think it is quite interesting that CJ comes from a Catholic background and was heavily invested in the abusive shepherding movement. Those parts of you do not disappear suddenly and can influence your thought patterns. One day, if someone does CJs biography, you can be sure his background will be carefully explored.
Be careful, as well, about saying that someone is not from an SGM church. As you well know, CJ is in cahoots with the leaders of the Southern Baptist seminaries. They, in turn, are beginning to influence SBC churches. I just left one where the pastor is sounding more and more like CJ everyday and has become crazy authoritarian. He also concealed poor treatment of young boys who were hurt by a pedophile. My husband and I raised a brouhaha, left, and there is now an investigation going on. It was my study of SGM that helped me to see what happened at my church and I am planning on exposing these influences in the very near future on the internet. Trust me, you don’t have to be a full fledged SGM church to cause problems by implementing some of this nonsense.
So, I say “Good for Wanda.” I hope she keeps the information flowing.
Finally, can any of you out there tell me what goes on in the ubersecret Pastors College? Something doesn’t smell right.
February 1st, 2009 at 9:25 pm
Dee,
I DO wonder why the PC is keeping its curriculum secret, if it is. Apparently, people have tried to find out, unsuccessfully. Very strange.
February 1st, 2009 at 9:47 pm
It is interesting what has been mentioned about Carolyn Mahaney.
It has been mentioned before that C.J. Mahaney’s father was an alcoholic. I am sure that growing up in this environment influences his perception of the father heart of God in a bad way.
Mahaney also had quite a wild life before he became a believer. I am sure that this is one reason he is so adamant about controlling young people. He is wanting to make sure they don’t do the same thing. Many say that over control of one’s children usually happens with someone with Mahaney’s own childhoo.
February 1st, 2009 at 10:11 pm
Just a quick note wrt Mennonites.
They run the spectrum. I live in Chester County and we’re right on the border of Amish and Mennonite country (Lancaster Co. and west.)
There are urban Mennonites that are quite progressive and are very active in their communities. Philly is blessed with those activist Mennonites.
There are extremely patriarchal mennonites; old order Mennonites that are almost as strict as the Amish.
So, back to CM, it really depends upon which type of Mennonite group her parents were with.
February 1st, 2009 at 10:11 pm
Canary
I have never, ever seen a seminary, college, etc. that does not clearly post its curriculum, admission requirements, graduates, professors,etc. I have written them and requested information…to no avail
So, I have a warning to SGM leaders. I will find out what you teach. If you won’t do it willingly, I will be contacting the press. And, if you won’t do it willingly, I know you are hiding something that is embarrassing. Did Jesus hide what He was teaching? Maybe He had a secret handshake for the disciples? Talk about the DaVinci code…sheesh!
February 2nd, 2009 at 12:35 am
I realize that mentioning Carolyn Mahaney’s Mennonite upbringing has sparked discussion about Mennonites. I appreciate Ellie providing the link to a previous discussion we had about this over at the survivors blog. When others jumped to the defense of Mennonites, it was acknowledged that Mennonites come in all shapes and sizes. Carolyn’s Mennonite family is from Sarasota, FL, and I’m sure there’s information to be found regarding the practices and the beliefs of the Conservative Mennonites living in Sarasota, FL. online. That would help to understand Mrs. Mahaney’s particular Mennonite upbringing.
Be that as it may, there are some things that are observable about Carolyn Mahaney, and I don’t think it’s pure speculation to suggest that her past and her upbringing have been influences in her life. I’ve met countless of Christians who, when sharing their testimony, almost always include something about their religious upbringing and how that was a factor in their lives. I’ve heard Carolyn Mahaney speak on numerous occasions and never have I heard her mention her Mennonite upbringing. I’m not sure that its something that she has determined to keep hidden, necessarily, but it’s not something she’s been open about. She certainly has never talked about a departure from the Mennonites, and the extent to which she has is – unclear.
There are some observable similarities, however. One being her big emphasis on women’s clothing. CJ tells a story where he and Carolyn took a woman to task who suggested Carolyn was wearing a blouse that was too form fitting. Carolyn checked with CJ about how it looked, and after she got his approval, they went and, essentially, put the woman down for her “observation”. Carolyn acts as though SHE is the standard bearer and all her clothing choices are right (and apparently CJ approves of EVERY piece of clothing she wears). So, where does that all come from? Has her extremely modest Mennonite upbringing made her a good judge of the non-Mennonite styles she prefers? Her mother probably feels like Carolyn’s clothes are immodest. So, who’s right? Maybe the blouse was too tight.
Another thing, I never heard Carolyn say a peep about politics. Does she vote? Conservative Mennonites, as far as I know, don’t get involved in politics or vote, do they? I’m sure if anyone were to scour the girltalk blog they wouldn’t find anything about voting or elections or a discussion having to do with the importance of government or politics at all. But you’d find a lot about homemaking, the importance of women staying at home, submission to husbands and church leadership, and dressing modestly, which all have their roots in her upbringing.
So, why pick on Carolyn Mahaney? Well, she’s equally culpable for SGM’s fatal flaws. In fact, she might, in many respects, be more to blame. If she is the one women who holds so much of the responsiblity for representing the women in SGM, then she’s to blame for how poorly they have been treated and represented.
In all this discussion of SGM, it seems fair that the woman who has been there through it all – who has helped shape and mold the ministry – receive some of the spotlight. Rather than being scholarly and innovative, I think Carolyn Mahaney has taken a lot of us on a good old fashioned buggy ride. All she knows is her role, and her responsiblity to be submissive, right? That’s all the SGM women are allowed to think about as well. They can thank Carolyn Mahaney for that, and for their imposed limitations.
February 2nd, 2009 at 4:04 am
LynnM said
“However poorly SGM pastors and leaders have responded to your appeals in the past, isn’t it possible that God may be using recent events to soften the hearts of the SGM leadership team so that they might be able to hear and respond appropriately to a united and carefully drafted appeal made directly to them? Just something to pray about ”
LynnM-SG’s pastoral files are filled with carefully drafted appeals. Something you should pray about-is whether or not the stories here are true. Because if they are true-then you’ve got a decision to make about your own letter to your pastors and Apostles. I say this with no anger or irony-it’s just how I see it. I’ve already done as much as I know to do, both relationaly and biblically-other than continue to warn others about the hidden dangers of SG’s theology of leadership, which is very abusive.
peace-mm
February 2nd, 2009 at 7:22 am
Claireon,
Thanks for your invaluable insights! I, too, find it rather odd that Carolyn Mahaney doesn’t seem to talk about her Mennonite upbringing, but it’s obvious that she incorporates what she learned during her formative years into her books and teachings. I was wondering where all of those old-fashioned ideals were coming from. Now I know. One’s heritage is very important because it contributes to who he or she will become as an adult.
Apparently, Sarasota is a winter haven for Amish and Mennonites, but I’m sure many live there permanently. We took a family vacation to to Lancaster, Pennsylvania several years ago and had a fabulous time! It was very interesting to observe a totally different culture. By the way, if you ever visit Lancaster, be sure to go to one of the productions in the Sight and Sound Theater. They are absolutely FABULOUS!!!
February 2nd, 2009 at 7:45 am
I am somewhat flabbergasted that people actually take vacations to Lancaster. I guess people never fully appreciate what they have always had. If anyone does visit Lancaster, they could take a small side trip to have lunch with me
February 2nd, 2009 at 8:39 am
DB,
Next time I visit Lancaster, I’ll ask for your phone number! It’s strange that the Amish have such an appeal to outsiders (although it’s short-lived). I certainly couldn’t live that way!
We live in a metropolitan area, but we also have several farms located two hours away. Our “country house” has all the modern conveniences but is isolated enough to get a taste of rural life. I guess it’s the best of both worlds.
Blessings,
Wanda
February 2nd, 2009 at 9:33 am
Stein Meisterbrew wrote
January 30th, 2009 at 10:41 am
Just say no to ___Kool aid
What ‘counterfeit gospel’ are you referring to?
Dear Stein,
Sorry that it has taken me so long to get back with you concerning the counterfeit gospel that is being presented in SGM. You have said that the teaching is different depending upon which SGM church you are in. That could be true, but I would have to believe from my experiences that there is a similar theme in all the churches because of CJ’s teachings. One of Webster’s definition of counterfeit seems to fit: “something that so closely resembles something else as to mislead.” Here are some reasons why I believe a counterfeit gospel is being preached:
1. The focus is on the Cross to the extent that the Cross is implied to be the Gospel. The Gospel is the birth, life, death, resurrection and ascension of Jesus Christ. The complete Gospel is not being taught nor emphasized.
2. Relating to #1, there is no victory, no joy, no freedom in Christ in the teaching because there is very little (and sometimes none at all) teaching on the other parts of the Gospel, especially the resurrection and ascension of Jesus Christ.
3. Believers are constantly referred to as sinners even though all through the New Testament, believers are called saints. Yes, saints that sin but the focus in the Scriptures is not on sinfulness but on Jesus Christ. Paul says that he is the chief of sinners but even in that he talks more about Jesus than his own sinfulness. “This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom I am chief. However, for this reason I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show all longsufferering, as a pattern to those who are going to believe on Him for everlasting life.”
4. Even though we sing about the Cross and about forgiveness, there is the implication that God is still angry with us and we must do more – work, work, work – to be more holy, to be sinless, to purify ourselves.
5. We are taught to focus on our own sinfulness as well as the sinfulness of others. We are encouraged to confront others with their sinfulness taking the place of the Holy Spirit.
6. The ministry of the Holy Spirit is pretty much ignored from the pulpit and I do believe in the life of many SGMers. Of course believers are indwelt with the Holy Spirit but we need to hear of the Holy Spirit from our pastors and we need to be encouraged to grow in the ministry of the Holy Spirit. “It is specifically the ministry of the Holy Spirit that gives a Christian the capability of change and growth in righteousness.” Rather than being controlled by the Holy Spirit, many are controlled by self imposed rules and regulations for themselves and their families. This is legalism and quenches the Holy Spirit.
7. There is idolatry of the movement, the local church, and relationships within SGM churches which replaces genuine worship of Jesus Christ. Also, intellectualism is lifted above Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. Have a conversation with a true “SGMER. It’s all about what books we’re reading or about CJ, etal’s latest blog. It’s all about what God is saying to others, especially pastors and their wives and not about what God is saying to the individual. This is so very sad and dangerous because it is replacing personal relationship with Jesus Christ and hearing him for yourself. Look at the language within a SGM church – it all sounds the same: Better than I deserve, thank you for serving, etc.
8. There is great fear within the people rather than faith because of the teaching and because there is no application of the genuine Gospel. This is evidenced in many ways but one in particular is the fear that someone different may taint them or their children. Therefore, “I must stay away from so and so and their children because their sin may effect us.” Much exclusion of anyone who looks or acts different than their model of what a godly person looks like.
9. (Related to #8) To be a “godly” Christian, you must look a certain way as specified through those within SGM. Dressing the same, doing the same activities, talking the same (which is usually about your sinfulness) educating your children, parenting in the same way, the list goes on and on.
Ok. Enough said. Anyone want to add any more, please do or tell me that I am wrong. I am definitely open to hear. Check out http://theologica.blogspot.com.....spels.html
February 2nd, 2009 at 10:17 am
Just say No…
Say you’re wrong?? Oh goodness, I think you are right on all counts.
Thanks for taking the time to post all that.
February 2nd, 2009 at 10:20 am
Just Say No…
Spot on!!
February 2nd, 2009 at 10:28 am
Just say no,
Wow, excellent post! You hit it all. I want to add one thing–well, no it’s not exactly in addition to all you said, but it’s a quote from Eugene Peterson that sounds amazingly like it’s a description of SGM churches. Heard the quote from Swindoll this morning.
“There are people who do not want us to be free. They don’t want us to be free before God, accepted just as we are by His grace. They don’t want us to be free to express our faith originally and creatively in the world. They want to control us. They want to use us for their own purposes. They themselves refuse to live arduously and openly in faith, but they huddle together with a few others and try to get a sense of approval by insisting that we all look alike, talk alike, act alike, thus validating one another’s word. They try to enlarge their numbers only on the condition that new members in their group act and talk and behave the way they do. Without being aware of it, we become anxious about what others will say about us. Obsessively concerned about what others think we should do. We no longer live the good news, but anxiously try to memorize and recite the script someone else has assigned to us. In such an event, we may be momentarily secure [part of the group], but we will not be free. We may survive as a religious community, but we will not experience what it means to be human, alive in love and faith, and expansive in hope. Every free person who benefits from Paul’s courage, will continue vigilant in the resistance movement he founded.”
Just say no, I don’t remember your story. Are you still in a SG church? I am. But I’m praying for change.
Bree
February 2nd, 2009 at 10:36 am
That is so good, Just Say No! Each and every point is a valid description of the counterfeit gospel, as you have called it. The one that is most near and dear to my heart is #7.
You said,
“It’s all about what God is saying to others, especially pastors and their wives and not about what God is saying to the individual. This is so very sad and dangerous because it is replacing personal relationship with Jesus Christ and hearing him for yourself.”
Jesus paid such a terrible price so that each of us could have intimacy with Him. He did it for the joy set before Him – the joy of restoring relationship between the Father and His children. Anything less, any other “gospel” is an affront to His great accomplishment.
February 2nd, 2009 at 10:37 am
Scott,
You said, “He thanked me for my input and addressed several of the points in my letter that were being addressed by leadership (pastors). He stated that the suggestions/ideas involving church polity that I had addressed indicated that I had fundamental doctrinal differences with SGCC and SGM.”
Can you elaborate a bit on which doctrinal differences he was referring to? If not, no worries…
But, if possible, inquiring minds and all… 
February 2nd, 2009 at 11:21 am
Bree, thank you so much for that quote. It all helps so much to understand what has happened these last years. So many have felt the rejection, never feeling like they are accepted, and never feeling like they are quite good enough to be “one of them”. Questions like, what is wrong with me? Why do they look at me like I’m crazy when I share something with them that God has spoken to me personally about.
I am so thankful to God. I did go through a time of feeling duped but I am not bitter or angry, just very sad for those who I left behind and love; very much aware of how deceived I was. I am crying out to God for more discernment because I do not ever want to be deceived again. I am praying for those who are in captivity to SGM, praying that they are set free to walk in the Truth and Freedom that only Jesus Christ can provide!! I praise God and give Him the glory for a great and mighty deliverance out of SGM and into the true fellowship of Jesus Christ.
February 2nd, 2009 at 11:59 am
Just say no — to Kool Aid
I thought your description of the SGM gospel was excellent! You have inspired me to come up with a title for C.J. Mahaney’s next book, which is:
The Gospel According to CJ
February 2nd, 2009 at 1:43 pm
Bree,
Excellent quote. Wish it could be placed somewhere on this blog where it can be seen all the time.
Just say no,
Good summary. What you describe is legalism, which Paul called a false gospel in Galations. The church needs to be set free!
February 2nd, 2009 at 3:30 pm
Just say no to ___Kool aid
Thank you brother Kool Aid for your response.
You may have cut short your definition of counterfeit ;
made in imitation so as to be passed off fraudulently or deceptively as genuine; not genuine; forged :an imitation intended to be passed off fraudulently or deceptively as genuine;
Either way the term counterfeit implies intentionality. Some would disagree with your opinion that SGM’s focus is weighted too much towards ‘the Cross’, but lets just say that it is,…..its still the gospel. There is nothing disingenuous or deceptive about it. There is no fraud in preaching ‘the Cross’. It certainly wouldn’t qualify as ‘counterfeit. I’m not sure what SGC you’ve attended, but after nearly 11 years at SGCC I’ve heard the entire gospel message preached, time and time again from birth to resurrection. To me the message of ‘the Cross’ hits home. I need the message of ‘the Cross’. The Cross represents Christs atonement for my sin. Where would we all be without ‘the Cross’. When I finally stand before God, on that day, I’ve often thought, what will I do,…….what will I say, what will I thank Him for? “God thank you for the Cross”
February 2nd, 2009 at 3:42 pm
Stein – According to 1 Cor. 15:14 and 17, maybe you should consider saying “God, thank you for the Cross and for the Resurrection.” Since, without the resurrection, you are still guilty of your sins – even with the Cross.
1 Cor. 15:14 says: “And if Christ has not been raised, then all our preaching is useless, and your faith is useless.”
1 Cor. 15:17 says: “And if Christ has not been raised, then your faith is useless and you are still guilty of your sins.”
February 2nd, 2009 at 3:53 pm
Misled,
Ditto. When I see God, I won’t be thinking about two pieces of wood stuck together, used to murder thousands upon thousands of men and women during Roman times, even our Lord. I will be thinking about Jesus Christ, and will say, “Thank you, Father, for your great love. Thank you for giving us Jesus, and for making me one of your adopted daughters!”
WE MUST NOT WORSHIP THE CROSS, BUT ONLY THE SON OF GOD HIMSELF! WE CAN APPRECIATE WHAT HAPPENED TO OUR SINS ON THAT CROSS, BUT WE MUST NOT REMAIN AT THE FOOT OF IT, BUT MOVE ON TO THE RISEN CHRIST!
THE CROSS SHOULD NOT BE MADE INTO AN IDOL.
February 2nd, 2009 at 3:55 pm
P.S. I won’t even wear a cross as jewelery, because it doesn’t tell the whole story. I’d rather wear a fish!
February 2nd, 2009 at 3:57 pm
P.S.S. This goes along with the same argument that we should call ourselves saints, not sinners, because of who we are in Christ. Yours truly, Saint Canary
February 2nd, 2009 at 4:10 pm
Canary, I heard that back in TAG days, Larry Tomczak happened to mention the same thing, and shortly thereafter someone gave him a necklace with a little golden throne – denoting our position of reigning with Christ.
Misled – thanks for pointing out that verse:
1 Cor. 15:17 says: “And if Christ has not been raised, then your faith is useless and you are still guilty of your sins.”
How refreshing to draw scripture into these discussions, btw.
February 2nd, 2009 at 4:11 pm
Stein–
I am so glad you have stayed around!
February 2nd, 2009 at 4:24 pm
Stein, I love the Cross as well but I also love the whole Gospel. It’s a beautiful story of hope, victory and redemption. I would have to disagree with you about the teaching at SGCC. I believe that the focus has been on man’s sinfulness rather than Jesus Christ and the full Gospel. Hopefully people will lift their eyes and focus on the risen Jesus Christ and move in the Spirit of God. That’s where we find life and hope, victory over sin and fruitfulness for the kingdom of God. Why would anyone settle for less?
I was reminded today of a time past when Charles Simpson came to SGCC. He said that it was time to stop plowing in the barn, to open the barn doors and get out into the fields! Focusing on your sin will keep you plowing in the barn but focusing on Jesus Christ, moving in the Spirit will get you out into the fields and they are ripe for the Harvest. Praise God!
February 2nd, 2009 at 4:29 pm
Canary and Keepinstep – Yes, since the Lord showed me these verses, I now believe the saints and angels in Heaven are not singing about the Cross, but about Jesus Himself, risen and seated at the right hand of the Father! I struggled so much with CJM saying (and of course, the pastors and many, many others then repeating) “I will NEVER move away from the Cross!” I want to say to him, “Okay, you stay there, but I’m going where Jesus is NOW and will always be, not where he was for brief moments in time.”
February 2nd, 2009 at 4:53 pm
I have many SGM friends, and several of my students, who talk about the cross: ’I just need to take this to the cross,’ ‘challenge me to stay near the cross.’ etc.
I often want to ask, “What are you talking about, specifically?”
I think it sounds good and orthodox and all that, but if no one knows what it means, then what does it mean????
Stein, what is the practical meaning of this phrase to you? If the gospel is the good news that Jesus came for sinners, is that the message of the cross?
In scripture, the message of the cross was one that was to be shared with nonbelievers.
So, in your opinion, why does SGM not have evangelism as a major focus for this message of the cross?
Thanks!
February 2nd, 2009 at 4:58 pm
Saint KeepInStep,
I remember those days with Larry T., when It wasn’t shameful to feel emotion for Jesus, when there was so much more celebration over the fact that He lives than there was over the fact that He died (not that we should be ungrateful for His death, but we should keep it in balance with the complete gospel). The verses Saint Misled gave only support this practice.
To everyone:
Here are only a few verses from the Bible on our status as Saints. In Paul’s letters, he did not greet the sinners of such and such place, but the saints.
Romans 1:7
1Co. 1:2
1Co. 16:1
2 Co. 1:1, 8:4, 9:12
Eph. 1:1, 3:8, 6:18
These are only a small amount of verses that call believers “Saints”. I think there is scriptural support to stop calling ourselves sinners, and to stop centering our lives around a doctrine of indwelling sin that continues to have us mortify our souls. We should be living under the DOCTRINE OF RIGHTEOUSNESS!!! (Heb. 5:13-14, 6:1).
Also, the verse about not sinning in our anger is Eph. 4:26.
February 2nd, 2009 at 5:07 pm
Saint Misled,
I’m applauding. By George, I think you’ve got it!
RT,
I can hardly believe that anyone would think that an inanimate object such as a cross could in anyway help anyone. Take it to the cross? Do they mean, go and mortify themselves once again, see how unworthy they are, and then look at the problem in light of this unworthiness? If that is what it means, we are talking about a false gospel. Why not take the problem to Jesus, have Him speak or convict or whatever? He is ALIVE!
Sorry, I’m being emotional. I can hardly stand to hear such enslavement among Christians. You also ask an excellent question. Where is the evangelism? Where is the fruit of this sort of teaching? Why do SGM churches poach from other churches, rather than bring in new converts? Something is very wrong with this.
February 2nd, 2009 at 5:26 pm
Stein,
It’s not just the emphasis on the cross that makes the gospel at SGM less than all the Bible tells us. We sing the songs every Sunday about how our sins are covered by the blood and we make our praises based solely on the cross, which is not the whole story, as Misled pointed out.
It feels to me like what we’re doing when we worship Sunday morning is trying to overcome our condemnation by focusing on our forgiveness of sins through focusing on the cross itself as well as our sins. Or something kinda like that. I know we’ve been told we have to see our sins, be very aware of them, in order to be humble. So that idea of focusing on the sins is definitely there. Our focus should be God, not ourselves. They teach both things. But they teach focusing on Jesus as one more ‘to do’ that makes my walk with God depedent on me, puts the focus again on me. I’ll get to that later.
We’ve also been told that we can’t see the real beauty of the cross without the backdrop of our sinfulness. I can’t remember the author who originally said that, but I’m sure you’ve heard it, too. But they’re missing the beauty of being set free from the law, from rule-keeping and all that. That’s the gospel, that’s where the joy is. Yes, we’ve been made right with God (forgiveness of sins) AND we’ve also been set free from trying to do it on our own.
But it isn’t right to stop there at the cross, at forgiveness of sins. SGM completely leaves off the fact that the old way, rule-keeping and all that, was crucified with Christ, buried with Him. I’m not saying they’ve never mentioned it. There have been messages where they do. BUT, as a regular weekly way of worship, we do not even mention that fact. And what’s more, we don’t hardly talk about being raised with Christ to a new life, a grace filled life, the life of faith. It’s as if SGM sees faith being important for becoming a Christian and then after that it becomes all about conquering our sin through their prescribed means. It’s really no wonder that there’s a need to encourage people about not feeling condemnation. They’re teaching the old way of life–legalism. And we know that where the law is, sin increases. I think they believe that emphasizing the cross and pressing upon us the need to obey in dependence upon God makes all their “guidelines” for the Christian life into something other than legalism. But it doesn’t change anything and actually only adds to the whole problem.
The way they teach about focusing on the cross, my relationship with God rests completely on me and where I put my focus. No doubt, Hebrews says to focus on Jesus. But it’s not meant to be one more ‘to do.’ It’s something that we do by working with the Holy Spirit, having faith that He will work in us what we are powerless to work in ourselves. And yes, I’ve heard that we shouldn’t do any of it in our own power because that would be self-righteousness; we must do it in dependence upon God. Well, if anyone has figured that out and what that looks like, let me know.
I hope you see that all of the meetings for marriages and family and also the ladies meetings are all about application. Not directly from Scripture because God did not give us all these guidelines, but these are suggestions, as they say, for how to do it best. How to be a better Christian, how to serve your family better. But is that what the Christian life is all about? No, it’s supposed to be a life of faith. We’re saved by faith and the fruits of the Spirit our worked in our lives by faith. Abraham believed, it was counted as righteousness.
And one more thing about the suggestions, as they call them. It doesn’t make it any better to call them that. We all know what “7 habits of a godly woman” means. It means in order to be the best that you can be at being godly, you’d better do these things. And always, ALWAYS, they (the women who teach the ladies and the pastors) use Scripture to support their particular suggestions, applications, convictions and then burden us with them. We hear the verses (which actually do not command what they are suggesting–it’s principle versus practice), we want to please God, and we try to do it as they say. They are recreating the old way–rule-keeping, the law, it’s legalism. And the focus on the cross is a big part of making it all work out that way. We’re stuck, they make us stuck, and so we need them to guide us into how to do it ourselves.
Sorry if I sounded a little angry. They’re perverting the gospel of Christ. And they’re hurting people. It’s all in Galatians. That’s exactly what they’re doing.
Please see my comment at 10:28 for a pretty decent description (quote) of how it really looks.
Bree
February 2nd, 2009 at 5:37 pm
Wow, my last comment was awfully long.
Canary, thanks for pointing out what Scripture shows about calling ourselves saints rather than sinners. My Dad used to say that–he’s not in a SG church. I’ve no doubt he’s got more joy. Anyway, I’m going to make a point of using saint instead of sinner in my words and in my thoughts.
I know that CJ had to have had good intentions in pushing the line, “I’m a sinner in need of a Savior.” I think he must believe that’s the best way to live the Christian life, the best way to grow. He’s got it so wrong. It’s just plain unbiblical. I hope and pray God will get through to him.
Bree
February 2nd, 2009 at 5:47 pm
To Saint Bree,
I wish we had more emoticons, because I’d put the applauding smiley man up. Very well said, clear, and to the point. I didn’t hear any anger, but as we have pointed out today, anger at injustice is an honorable emotion. Boy, I’m really glad you are posting here!
I love this verse I just found: “To the saints and believing and faithful brethren in Christ who are at Colossae: Grace, favor, and blessing to you and peace from God our Father…” Colossians 1:2 Now that is how to begin a letter to God’s church!
February 2nd, 2009 at 5:52 pm
reformed Teacher said:
February 2nd, 2009 at 4:53 pm
“I have many SGM friends, and several of my students, who talk about the cross: ’I just need to take this to the cross,’ ‘challenge me to stay near the cross.’ etc.”
My question is – why aren’t SGM folks saying, “I just need to take this to Jesus,” “challenge me to stay near to Jesus”?
February 2nd, 2009 at 7:21 pm
Preach it Bree!!!!!!!!!!! Love hearing the true gospel! Now THAT is good news.
February 2nd, 2009 at 7:24 pm
Hmmm….Just Say no: that is an excellent point.
Do you find (I certainly do) that there is a lack of closeness to the person of Jesus Christ, to the love of Abba Father, to the leading of the gracious and indwelling Holy Spirit among your SGM friends?
I always feel like my students, especially, are working a program rather than being in fellowship with the one who right now is preparing a place for them, where he will receive them to himself to live with them forever.
Mr precious young students have now embarked on a mission to rebuke their non-SGM friends for perceived sins, while they commit the same ones themselves with impunity. (Dating/touching junk.) Poor blind ones. I feel so sad for them.
February 2nd, 2009 at 7:38 pm
RT,
What you said about a lack of closeness to the person of Jesus Christ, to the love of Abba Father, reminded me of a message given at Fairfax in ‘99, I think. (We aren’t at that SG church now–a different one.)
I’m pretty sure the pastor who gave the message was Vince Hinders. We had been going through Galatians at the time–a study very focused on grace. He preached on the adoption as sons part, the Abba Father part. He said that for him he sometimes just wanted a list (as in the list of to dos). He said, just give me the list. And then he said that it isn’t about a list, it’s about a relationship. He told us to fall in love with Jesus. It was very a good message.
Since I’m no longer there, I don’t know what the messages look like now, but I can’t really imagine that they have something completely different from the other churches. I wonder if that was then an attempt at getting things right and if they just kind of drifted back into the legalism? Don’t know. I wonder if Vince remembers that message.
Bree
February 2nd, 2009 at 7:42 pm
I am totally uplifted reading the victories of my Lord on this thread! Thanks to each of you!
Here’s one of my favorites in that legalism-busting book, Galatians:
It is for FREEDOM that Christ has set us free, therefore keep standing firm and DO NOT be subject again to a yoke of slavery. (5:1)
February 2nd, 2009 at 7:51 pm
From RT: Do you find (I certainly do) that there is a lack of closeness to the person of Jesus Christ, to the love of Abba Father, to the leading of the gracious and indwelling Holy Spirit among your SGM friends?
Absolutely. It is all about doctrine and not about Jesus and yes, it is very, very sad.
There is so much deception and bondage and it is legalism and intellectualism. People really believe that they are worshiping Jesus. We pray that God opens blinded eyes and gives them hearts to hear and know the truth.
February 2nd, 2009 at 8:02 pm
Wow, I am so shocked by what I just read on the Fairfax SG church website in their description of the gospel and I’m saddened. I went there thinking maybe I would hear something different than what I hear at my SG church, but before I got to any message I clicked on The Gospel. Here’s the shocker:
“The Gospel requires of all believers worship, which means constant praise and giving of thanks to God, submission to all that he has revealed in his written word, prayerful dependence on him, and vigilance lest his truth be even inadvertently compromised or obscured.”
It’s hard to believe that this is what they believe, plainly stated on their website. I guess I better check out what my SG church states about the gospel…
I’m editting this now because now I’m thinking that I may have misunderstood. Yes, it’s true that in trusting Christ for salvation we are worshipping God and submitting to Him. So maybe I’m just making more out of what they said there than I should have. Not sure.
February 2nd, 2009 at 8:57 pm
Where did they get that definition, do you think? Does it have Bible references?
February 2nd, 2009 at 8:58 pm
Carole,
You asked in your 10:37 post “Can you elaborate a bit on which doctrinal differences he was referring to?”
Concerning the response from a member of the apostolic team to the “get-well” plan: He did not respond to any of the doctrinal issues, however, he did respond directly to 10 of the 22 points. These 10 were of a practical nature. Of the 12 points to which he did not specifically respond, the following 4 relate to doctrine in various ways:
point 7 – move beyond The Cross in the teaching
point 8 – renewed focus on the ministry of the Holy Spirit
point 14 – establish elected elders
point 17 – conduct an outside audit of doctrine and practices
While I wouldn’t presume to think these weren’t important issues to him, he didn’t specifically address them. He did note that I seem to hold some fundamental doctrinal differences with SGCC. He also offered to continue the discussion and help in any way he could.
February 2nd, 2009 at 9:06 pm
RT,
It’s from The Committee on Evangelical Unity in the Gospel, an organizaion I guess. And the name of the statement is “The Gospel of Jesus Christ: An Evangelical Celebration.”
There are no verses cited for the portion that I copied.
Here’s the page:
http://www.sovgracefairfax.org/the-gospel
The part I copied seems like words crafted to possibly take on multiple meanings. The gospel only requires my faith. So it doesn’t seem quite right to state it the way they do. At the same time my faith does translate into worship and submission. Seems a bit tricky to determine. I’d be interested in hearing what you think.
Bree
February 2nd, 2009 at 9:24 pm
acme – I have not been on the computer much since yesterday, so I didn’t get a chance to respond to you earlier. I’m appalled at the amazing lack of pastoral care and sensitivity they subjected you to. That’s awful, I’m sorry.
There is so much wrong with their response to you, but I’m particularly struck by two things: One, their very mistaken assertion that they didn’t need to provide resources on domestic violence because people would bring up the issue to the leadership as needed. That is precisely what does not happen in most cases of domestic violence; victims do not bring up the issue because they are afraid or because they think no one will believe them. And two, the part of the email that says “conflict is avoided by not focusing on that.” Again this shows an amazing level of ignorance of how abusers think and operate. Abusers seek out any excuse for “conflict” and rationalize their abuse by saying they were provoked in some way. It’s really scary to me that people who are so ignorant of how abuse plays out are in a position to counsel people in abusive situations, especially in a position where they present themselves as standing in the place of God . . .
February 2nd, 2009 at 9:47 pm
Thanks, work-in-progress. This was my concern as well. It took me YEARS to understand that what was happening in my house was ABUSE, to say it to myself and I got that help from a pamphlet at the public library. I believed the lies that I was responsible for it, that our son was just particularly hard to discipline, that if we just applied all the CLC teaching better, everything would be just fine. Over and over, CGLs and pastors just sympathized with G and said they got too angry themselves sometimes and we all need to listen to the Gospel again, to try the Three Trees, to read some more books, and to try harder.
February 2nd, 2009 at 10:24 pm
acme,
I saw the comment where you copied and pasted the email you received from your former pastor. That email was amazing, actually, on several levels.
First of all, I’m with “work-in-progress” in that the pastor revealed a stunning ignorance about domestic abuse. But I also find it incredible that a pastor would think it was his duty in the first place to weigh in on the details of your situation like that. Really, I don’t think there’s a human being out there who would be called to that level of involvement in a bunch of other people’s lives. I realize that you and your family were seeking counsel. But still. A good professional counselor would rarely issue such specific directives - or have such intense opinions – about the “right” course of action in your situation.
I know that SGM thinks they are merely “caring” for people with this kind of counsel. But wow, what a burden for one human being to take on for another. Do we ever see this sort of involvement in other people’s problems and decision-making modeled for us in the Bible? Is there anywhere in Scripture that would support this?
I’m thinking that situations like yours – with the type of counsel your pastor was offering – represent one of SGM’s biggest issues, which is pastoral over-involvement in the lives of their people, where the pastors form strong black-and-white ideas about the “right” choices people should be making, even in areas where the Bible does not get so specific. The pastoral opinions seem to then take on lives of their own, where people are bound to follow their counsel.
Again, I doubt we can find clear and binding Scriptural support for such a depth of pastoral involvement in people’s lives, even in counseling situations. And if the Bible doesn’t command or support such a thing, then why would any human being – particularly one who is well aware of his own innate sinfulness – wish to saddle himself with that burden, a burden that NOBODY is equipped to bear?
February 3rd, 2009 at 7:55 am
Wow, I have been out of town and so much has been discussed!
Stein, I am concerned about you and your family. Maybe you’re totally fine, but I thought I was when I went to that church, too. I see things in hindsight that you don’t seem to see. I’ve been gone for ten years, though, so I can’t be certain things are as they were when I left Southside Church (SG Chesapeake). BUT, after having a too brief lunch with my new friends and my dear old friends, too, I have determined that yes, things are much the same. I also spent some time with others who post here. Their firsthand accounts made me cry. Without divulging the details of what I heard, I want to challenge you to make sure you understand what is at stake here. Let’s fast forward to the year 2022. Here are what I perceive as dangers to your children if they continue to sit under this doctrine:
1) There is a chance your children will stop loving God and backslide. Or become lukewarm. The Gospel is full of hope and life and joy. But SG churches are not. The discrepancy between what the Gospel SHOULD make them feel and what they actually feel toward and about God will confuse them at best and shipwreck their faith at worst. Remember, too, that if they are girls, and I think you mentioned that you have daughters, they will probably not respond best to preaching on pride issues (as someone brought up earlier). They will end up humiliated, hopeless, and fearful.
2) Assuming they are girls, there is a strong likelihood that they will become depressed. God has put dreams and callings into their hearts. The callings and gifts of God are without repentance, so these will not go away despite their being stifled while the girls serve solely as moms and wives and housekeepers. One of your daughters may be slated to discover a cure for cancer. God will not remove the desire to pursue science if it’s His divine will, so she will be baffled, sad, morose, confused, and unfulfilled in any other role (just an example).
3) Your daughters will probably have lots of children. While this seems admirable and it’s something many women thrive in and a life that many women find fulfilling, it is not something every woman is made for. Since she will see this as mandatory and a call of service to her husband and to God, if being the mother of many is not her natural gifting, she will feel like a failure at it — and may BE a failure at it. I have four children and I love them all dearly, but I am not an organized person and have struggled with inferiority because of it. I wouldn’t give any of them back, God forbid, but I do know that I have four children because we were encouraged to have the “Southside Four” and not because God was calling me to have four children! Yes, He is sovereign, but again, the lack of personal relationship with Jesus and the blind obedience to the system we were a part of led us to make decisions that were not necessarily the best for our family at the time.
4) Your daughters will either rebel against what you have done in placing them within such a rigid structure or they will adjust and thrive within it. Many are natural homemakers and those who are will not see a thing wrong with serving in their natural giftings. So there are going to be success stories. Others have been brought up to believe their natural gifting is homemaking even if God has called them to more, so they will be fine with it, too. But there will be a few who end up divorced and broken. The young men in SG churches are being taught that their wives are their servants, their helpmeets. They need to be taught that their wives have their own gifts and callings from God. Otherwise, they will treat your daughters as maids. When this takes its toll, your daughter will be angry with you for declaring that her freedom in Christ was purchased so that she could clean toilets and make and raise babies. Bitterness can take hold. Abuse can occur if she tries to in any way assert her own freedom. Finally, the depression I spoke of in #1 will come.
Now certain friends of mine seem to thrive despite any of the issues we’ve spoken of here at Refuge. They break the mold and they don’t understand any of what I’m talking about. Their children are all humble lovers of Jesus and will live happily ever after because they will be sheltered from all the bad in life within the bubble that is Sovereign Grace Ministries. But they will also be sheltered from some really great stuff, too! The choice is yours. Stay or leave. But we’re all here as examples of what can happen if you stay. We won’t love you less or treat you differently if you do stay. I hope you know that. But you will probably not want to “fellowship” with us anymore. That was the hardest thing for us to face. That Christians could dump friends so suddenly was alarming. That is the one thing that I hope will change the most. Well, not the most — there are other urgently pressing issues. But that’s the one that made my heart ache for the longest. The loss of friends.
I do want to say, though, that God brought us new friends. He did it almost immediately, too! So there is hope for those who leave and others are waiting with open arms to love you, no strings attached, no expectations, just because Christ loved us all first.
February 3rd, 2009 at 8:16 am
Something interesting that came up in conversation with someone a couple of days ago was the fact that other churches in the area already knew about the doctrinal error at SG Chesapeake. In other cities, mine included, the SG churches are also well known. Homeschooling families I know have said of certain people, “Oh, they go to Crossway. That church in north Charlotte where they only let their kids play with other churchmembers’ kids.” I don’t think people realize that those of us on the “outside” KNOW your church by its reputation. And frankly, it would be easier on us if conversations could be more open. I love getting together with one particular friend, but I always feel like I have to stay away from talking about church. She’s probably already seen me on here and is not talking about the huge elephant in the room when we get together either. So we have this nondiscussion going on about all things SGM and instead we talk about our kids, the weather, whatever. Which is fine. But I wish the denomination was such that there was nothing untoward to “not” talk about when we get together.
One final note… We love the Butlers. They are dear friends of ours. They live in our city, and we went to Southside when John was pastor there. I definitely HAVE mentioned his name here on Refuge. I don’t remember where, but I know I have. Someone was asking earlier about that. I wouldn’t and couldn’t say anything bad about them, but I did say we were reconciled. Maybe that’s what the person who said John was talked about on here remembers? Please keep in mind, critics, that you can’t see us or read our faces or remember which person we are when you read here. I apologize for the scattered, disorganized nature of all these posts. That happens when lots of people talk at once and it happens one on one in my living room or at care group meetings when conversations shift and morph. I seriously doubt whether the disorganized nature and smatterings of snippiness from battered people are the reason the very real concerns here are not being addressed by the apostolic team of SGM.
And maybe they ARE being addressed. Maybe CJ is taking it all in and about to be moved to action. I want to challenge us all to pray for him a lot today. Commit to praying for him all day long, that his eyes will be enlightened and that real, substantive change will come! Hallelujah!
February 3rd, 2009 at 8:43 am
FF,
Thank you! I can only apologize, as I’ve fallen so sort in this area.
You are so right-CJ needs our prayers. I’d ask everyone reading to please pray for CJ daily.
February 3rd, 2009 at 8:57 am
Stein, I have been studying Hebrews 5:12-6:3 and thought of you. Would you consider sharing your interpretation of these verses? Thanks. Also, I have found this site to be very helpful in my study -http://www.carm.org/sermons/Heb_6_1-2.htm.. Have a blessed day.
Freedom Fighter, would you please email me?
February 3rd, 2009 at 9:01 am
Freedom Fighter,
I know you’ve been posting awhile, but I would just like to say, your voice and heart are a great addition to our conversations.
I am extremely happy for the folks in Chesapeake who are not alone in their struggles. To know that you have been able to meet with people there is a relief to me. We were so totally, utterly alone in our experience. I wouldn’t wish that on anyone. In fact, I’d move heaven and earth to be sure that didn’t happen.
It is a good reminder to pray for CJ as well.
February 3rd, 2009 at 9:14 am
Freedom Fighter,
Thanks for your heart and desire for something redemptive in all this.
I believe we all want that too. I am praying.
God bless ~
February 3rd, 2009 at 9:24 am
Freedom Fighter,
I’m sorta new here, as someone who comments, but I have been reading your posts for a couple of weeks and your evident compassion is such a good example. It’s clear that you desire reconciliation with those who have wronged you and have much love for those still in bondage as well as those who have suffered or are suffering.
You’ve been a positive influence on me, a voice of hope for change.
Thank-you. By the way, I am currently attending a SG church, under a different name. : ) Wanting to stay anonymous for now and praying to God about what He would have our family do. Also I stand along-side you in praying for CJ and the Big Guys, as Canary put it. God can do it.
Bree
February 3rd, 2009 at 10:46 am
Bree,
As someone who is also still in a SG church, I hope for humility and “real” change. I cringe at the “process” for there is always a “process” and am praying for a real “awakening” for those in “Leadership”. If we lose hope that GOd can change hearts, I would lose hope on myself and my life. I must put my hope in God, not in man, but hope in God FOR man…you know?. Do I love SGM, yes. Am I hurt by them, yes. But there are also alot of churches doing well…in my opinion, the further away from MD, the better the church is
…we msut remember that, it comes from the top. If there is “change” how wonderful could the ministry be then??!! I pray that after the wind comes to seperate the chaff, the seeds that take root will be solid men and women of God, led by the Spirit, quick to lean in and LISTEN. We can always hope and pray.
And although I am on my way out of SG, I am not on my way out filled with bitterness and hurt…although I struggle with both…I am on my way out knowing I stayed and on one hand wanted to stay, but God said no. So, here I go, but still hope for SG. I, like many here have been a devoured sheep. I am “justified” in my hurt, but do not wish to carry it. I would be very happy to leave it at the cross and walk in truth of my situation. Which is hard since the Truth is not a pretty picture for myself or SGM…but it is the Truth. I will not longer stand in the back, quiet, and allow people to be deceived. I am not going out to blow the horn, but if people ask, I will say a quick prayer and tell them my Story. After all, it is a story of how God redeemed and delivered me and my family. If I do not share the Story than the Glory that belongs to God is stolen…and He deserves ALL THE GLORY! So I will speak in truth, but also in Love. People will challenge, People will correct…but as long as I go to God and wait to hear from Him…I will be just fine and will stand on the rock of Truth. Amen?!
Bree….if you want to talk to someone, Jim can give you my email. But for the time being (until all loose ends are tied up:-) I need to stay incognito
or this will come back and haunt me during my process and the last thing I want is for the Pastors to be distracted from what is really going on…:-)
February 3rd, 2009 at 11:00 am
Mark of the Lion,
Thank-you for commenting to me. Yes, I will ask Jim for your email. I would love to “talk.”
Maybe I should have said more here about why it’s not difficult for me to stay in my church. I surely don’t mean to minimize any of what others have gone through. I think you’re right about being further away from MD. I guess I shouldn’t say much more here.
I’ll get in touch with Jim!
Bree
February 3rd, 2009 at 11:17 am
Our RIGHTOUSNESS is not in the confession of our sin..BUT in the RIGHTOUSNESS of a risen CHRIST….
February 3rd, 2009 at 11:24 am
That’s right, MiMi. I totally agree. I think it was Reformed Teacher (might be wrong) who advised another commenter about there being no need to confess her sins before she made her requests to God. And RT (if that’s who it was) cited the Lord’s Prayer. A request for daily bread before asking for forgiveness.
Are you responding to something in particular here? I can’t remember what all has been said.
Bree
February 3rd, 2009 at 5:01 pm
Saints,
I’ve been out of the loop for a while – that thing called “life” gets in the way of the computer sometimes (thankfully!) but I have missed you guys – strange that you can miss people you’ve never met, seen, or even know their real names! Yet I missed you all!
THat said, I’m commenting on a much earlier discussion about the tone of this blog. I am so grateful for those of you who took the time to point out your concerns. This has been an area I too have struggled with off and on, for months since I’ve been reading the blogs (since April last year). All I can say is, it goes in cycles, constantly, blogs are fluid – they expand and digress, they run around in circles, they make you dizzy, they take you off on wild tangents and emotions – all because the people posting here are going through all those things themselves. The fact that we can have ANY intelligent or Biblical discussion at all is the grace of God! haha
I’m finding myself more patient with others who seem to be in a “mode” I currently am not in myself – best example would be anger. Since it is the most obvious emotion at times, it sticks out like a sore thumb. If you are angry, you pick up on it and run with it, if you are not, then you pick up on it and try to tone it down. THis is the Body at work, even in cyberspace.
What blesses me is to see the love, concern, HONOR, and humility displayed here – while not ALL the time, it is very frequent. It also helps to have moderators who give us the example to follow. Not to blow smoke up Jim’s or Carole’s backsides, but we due owe them some gratitude for keeping the tone here much more gracious, Biblical, and honoring to the Lord and others than it could be. It is a hard task. So after the grace of God, Jim and Carole do much to remind us all that certain things don’t fly – because they aren’t honoring.
So I’m not sure how much I will be able to add to the conversations here – I am focusing my attention on praying for those who have contacted me personally and trying to develop some phone contact with those who could use some encouragement. I know when others did this for me (like Canary!) last year, it helped tremendously. My heart is to see people set free, know they are adored by their Father, and encouraged to press on.
February 4th, 2009 at 12:41 am
Sorry, I have not been back to comment. My life is crazy.
Clarion, I so appreciate your follow-up in clarifying where you were coming from on
January 31st, 2009 at 12:18 am Your heart came thru and although I don’t know if I agree with some of your conclusions, I can really understand what you are getting at.
I’ve also so appreciated all of the posts on “the gospel”. That is my biggest problem and I feel that this wrong focus and application has done much to derail me spiritually. I used to have such a vibrant faith and fervent love for Jesus. I miss that. I’m so tired of the emphasis being “the message”. I think if I hear a call to ‘focus on the gospel harder and everything will be better’ I will just scream. (sorry to vent. I’m off to haul my seriously sleep-deprived body to bed…)
thank you to all who have time to put such thought and care into posting!
February 4th, 2009 at 7:49 am
Scott,
Thanks for the clarification!… (Feb. 2 @ 8:58pm)
February 4th, 2009 at 10:42 am
watching closely, i could be wrong, but i’m guessing jesus misses that intimacy with you too. i have a feeling he is standing there now, his arms stretched wide saying, come on home my baby, i love you so
February 4th, 2009 at 12:17 pm
Aw, Stunned, what a beautiful way to put it!
February 4th, 2009 at 12:21 pm
Stunned, fellowship has been sweet as I’ve focused more on Him. As I still need to be at my SGM church for now, this is what I will be focusing on.
Thanks for the sweet encouragement.
March 16th, 2009 at 9:15 am
Regarding the “Get Well Plan” posted above, I think it’s a great idea to have all the principles in this fiasco get together with a neutral third party. Is there such a thing though. Everyone seems to be connected to everyone else. Kind of like 6 degrees to Kevin Bacon. And of course, even if this were to happen, would the leadership in SGM be willing to submit to outside authority.
5yearsinSGM mentioned John Piper’s book Future Grace, which I love. Our SGM church was reading all of his books at one time (he even spoke at Celebration at least once). We still sell his books in our bookstore. He does state emphatically in one of his books (sorry, poor memory) that our passion for God should never be based on gratitude, even using the model of a husband loving his wife because he’s grateful to her. Who would want that?
March 16th, 2009 at 9:57 am
Mack,
It was our hope that SGM leadership would be willing to engage and seriously consider the issues we sent forward. While they did comment on some of the issues, they were notably silent on any of the points relating to church governance or accountability. See my comment of 2 Feb above.
March 16th, 2009 at 12:27 pm
Mack,
Hi again! Wow, some more good points. I haven’t read “Future Grace”, yet. Think I’ll fly over to my nearest bookstore and grab a copy.
As a wife, I would hate it if my husband only loved me out of gratitude. I believe the Lord wants us to love Him because of who He is, and because we can’t get enough of His presence in our lives. Mr. Piper makes a very helpful comparison.
March 16th, 2009 at 6:51 pm
Mack
As I read all of these entries, I am impressed on how “perfect” everyone is in their motives. “We must never” base our passion on God due to our gratitude. Thankfully, I have never had to be in such an environment that stresses such perfection. One of my favorite pastors (non SGM) once said, “Even on my best days, my motives are mixed.” So, we strive to be perfect but can rest in the arms of a gracious Savior who will love our passion even it is based on gratitude.
May all on this site find the peace of God that passes all understanding.
Blessings
March 19th, 2009 at 2:55 pm
Dee,
Thanks for the reminder that God loves us even with all our mixed motives. Amen!
March 19th, 2009 at 3:49 pm
Mack and Scott – glad to see more MEN are commenting now! Much answered prayer…
March 19th, 2009 at 4:50 pm
Juli,
Sweetie-pie, I think Mack is a woman…easy mistake to make. We should post women’s comments in pink, and men’s in blue. That would make it simple! Of course, someone will come on and accuse us of stereotyping…never mind.
March 19th, 2009 at 5:12 pm
Canary–ROFL!
March 19th, 2009 at 5:13 pm
Mack–welcome!
Where is KingsWay planting a church? Florida?
Thanks!
March 19th, 2009 at 5:17 pm
RT,
Wish we had those smiley men like on Survivors. I love the ROFL one!
March 23rd, 2009 at 9:16 am
The new church starts in Fredericksburg, VA on May 11. There were people in a loose church organization there already and some from the Fairfax church will be joining them.
March 23rd, 2009 at 1:34 pm
Thanks, Mack.
March 23rd, 2009 at 1:37 pm
Mack
I knew the young man who is slated to be the sr. pastor at the Fredericksburg church-plant. He was from the Chesapeake church and a great guy. However, the real issue with this church-plant (and probably any other SGM church-plant) is that it is a “franchise” of corporate SGM. That in itself is not bad, but as with all franchises you can only get the product or service that the franchise offers (you cant rent a U-Haul trailer at McDonalds). If you are in agreement with what is being offered at a SGM franchise then it may be for you (or your family member).
It was my experience that the offerings as well as the basic corporate goals and policies weren’t readily apparent on first look. Various doctrines (baptism of the Holy Spirit being one) were even changed over the years without much, if any, announcement to the members of the church. Corporate views on benevolence and caring for the broken in my particular church were obscure at best and have only recently come into full focus.
My advice to your family member who is considering joining a Sovereign Grace church is to ask lots of very pointed questions and demand very clear and concise answers. Encourage your family member to make a list of doctrines and practices that are important to them and see where the church stands on those.
March 23rd, 2009 at 1:45 pm
Mack, I say this with much love in my heart for the whole body of Christ, brothers and sisters: Please run as fast as you can from this new church plant in VA. Until such time as SGM is truly reformed, it is not a safe place for you or your children. The movement as a whole has taken a path which is far off from the true, genuine Gospel. It is not a healthy environment for any Christian. Please, don’t risk it for yourself or your children. There are so many healthy, vibrant churches filled with Believers who are worshipping Jesus and walking in Truth, abundant life and victory. Please O Please, find one of those churches for your family. May God bless you as you seek Him and the fullness that only He can offer you.
March 23rd, 2009 at 4:34 pm
ReformedTeacher
Ken Delage, who will be the sr pastor of the Fredericksburg, VA church plant, is part of the leadership team at Kingsway right now as a Pastoral Intern. So, to answer your question, the church plant from Kingsway is the Fredericksburg VA plant.
March 23rd, 2009 at 4:51 pm
One other thing to consider, Ken Delage has been at Kingsway for almost a year now under the tutelage of Gene Emerson who exercised “oversight” over the Chesapeake debacle not long ago. I say that because Gene’s influence, good or not so good, will tend to shape Ken’s pastoral methodology. click here Gene is the “apostle” over that region of “churches,” so Ken will be subservient to Gene, for what it’s worth.
March 23rd, 2009 at 6:00 pm
Gratefully Disillusioned from SGM…..
We know this much………. I Corinthians 15:33 ………..beware Ken.
N.S.L.B.