We are one of the “3 couples” who brought issues to the pastors at SGC. We are speaking for ourselves only and we write this in accordance with Eph 4:11 “And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them.” First, we want you all to know that we went to the pastors because of our love for Jesus Christ and His body. We began this whole process very privately and in accordance with Matthew 18 and 1Timothy 5. We are not troublemakers nor are we divisive people. In fact, we have been loyal members of this church for 11 years. We were not looking for problems in the church but God brought this to us and then we obeyed. We have been involved with many people including Esther (know that there are many others besides Esther, including some in our former care group) in SGC for years and had observed negligent, and at times, abusive care by the pastors. Sadly, we blindly trusted our pastors but Holy Spirit woke us up. We could no longer ignore the abuses that were going on as well as the wrong (and yes, dangerous) interpretation of Scripture and implementation of wrong doctrine. We are all called to stand for truth, to care for the wounded and broken, and to carry one another’s burdens. When the leadership above does nothing, then the people must stand out of obedience to God and not according to obedience to man and the structures that man puts in place. We must walk in the fear of God and not the fear of man. We believe that God would have it no other way.
We have loved our church – pastors and members – and still do, even though this is no longer our church. We have no bitterness and no anger. We are sad for the state of SGC and SGM but we are believing and trusting in the faithfulness of God. We are moving forward, looking to Jesus and the wonderful plans that He has for our family. Many have appealed for us to stay but the Lord has made it clear that our time at SGC is finished and it is now time for others to step up. Also, we cannot stay because we firmly believe that this church cannot be “fixed” until such time as the structure of SGM is totally and completely changed and that great confession, asking for forgiveness, and repentance (genuine repentance is not just a word but an action which is demonstrated by bearing good fruit) takes place by CJ and those standing with him in leadership. In the case here at SGC as well as in other SGM church cases, the system of accountability within the pastoral and apostolic team failed. Their polity/government/structure was one of the causes of this failure and will cause future failures resulting in many being hurt and misled. Because of the frailties of man and temptations that come from the enemy, it is very difficult for men (pastors and “apostles”) to stand up for their convictions and oppose those who control their paychecks. This structure actually sets these pastors up for failure as well as the fact that CJ is placing inexperienced, young men in positions as sr. pastors over large memberships. In the case at SCG, 5 pastors were deeply involved and knew the details of what was going on. Not one of them stood up and said this is wrong until things were brought into the light. How very sad and how God must be grieved.
Regarding the “Family Meeting” Sunday night: Were we thankful that Keith confessed and repented? Absolutely! Do we think it was a good beginning but could have been more complete? Absolutely! Did we stand and applaud during the meeting? Absolutely! We applauded Keith, that he, as senior pastor, stood as a man and took full responsiblity for everything that has happened including those grievous things done by other pastors. He did not have to do this yet he did. We applauded and were very thankful that he did confess and ask for forgiveness from the membership. We are also very thankful that the pastors have called many in and confessed and asked for forgiveness for the abusive and neglectful counseling that they (the pastors) have done. Much forgiveness has taken place in the body and we hope that much healing will occur. Forgiveness has never been the issue as some have made it out to be. The issue has been that they are no longer above reproach as Scripture dictates that they must be to pastor.
Sadly things may look better and may even be better in some ways but unless the beliefs and attitudes of SGM are changed, then real change will not occur within their churches. “Let no one delude and deceive you with empty excuses and groundless arguments. (Eph 5:6). We say to those who are asleep, to those who are still saying, “I don’t want to know what is going on,” wake up and be alert. Stand for truth in your heart as well as with your voice. We are all accountable for our actions or inactions. “Awake, you who sleep, Arise from the dead, And Christ will give you light.” Eph 5:14
Our desire is that many, including the pastors who we still love, will be delivered and set free. (Is. 61:1) Free to live the abundant life that Jesus died for and promised to us. Free to be controlled by Holy Spirit. Free to walk in the fear of God and not fear of man. Free to love and care for one another as He calls us to do.
As we conclude this letter, let us make it clear that our love and thankfulness for the Cross of Jesus Christ has never changed. We love the Cross and we will be ever thankful for the wonderful teaching by John Butler and others on the Cross. It has been our experience, however, that there has been an overemphasis on the doctrine of indwelling sin from the pulpit at SGC which has effected other doctrine, counseling, parenting, and every aspect of life within SGC. We desire to walk in the fullness of the Gospel with all the hope and joy that is offered to us. For us, this includes the Conception, Life, Death, Resurrection, and Ascension of Jesus Christ as well as the ministry of the Holy Spirit. In this we have an abundance in Christ including (but certainly not limited to): we have VICTORY in Christ; we are OVERCOMERS in Christ, we are CO-HEIRS with Christ, and our identity is in Christ. We can put sin to death because of the resurrection power dwelling within each believer; that same power that raised Jesus Christ from the dead! We praise and give glory to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. May we all walk in a manner that is worthy of the Gospel!
Walking in faith,
Scott and Connie
Scott and Connie,
Amen and amen!!! I’m so proud of you! You have stood for God’s truth under extremely difficult circumstances. I have never been involved with a Sovereign Grace church, and thanks to survivors like you who are speaking out about the darkness in this “family of churches” I NEVER WILL!
I’m keeping you in my thoughts and prayers.
Thank you, Scott and Connie! Thank you for standing up and for speaking up. Let’s walk in a manner that’s worthy!
Scott & Connie, Esther, Noel, Jim, Kris, Guy, and countless others,
I deeply admire your strength of character and trust in the Lord, your lack of fear of man, that you stand for those hurting and are calling SGM to account.
Scott said, “Also, we cannot stay because we firmly believe that this church cannot be “fixed” until such time as the structure of SGM is totally and completely changed and that great confession…”
I used to hope that SGM would wake up and smell the coffee, that they would be convicted of their sin, but I think thier hearts are hard; and, sadly the faithful SGM members think they are acting godly to protect their leaders at all cost, without question, without accountability and that is just scary. I do not see change coming in any way other than a leadership change at the very top. I am turning my back and walking away from all things SGM. I do believe that God is removing His hand. I hope all the silent leaders that have allowed this to go on realize that they will be held to account. They cannot hide behind CJ and say to God that they were being obedient to thier leader, a mere man. They too are accountable to God. Their silence is sin. I wholeheartedly believe these blogs are the hand of God and he has called you here for such a purpose. I will continue to pray for SGM and all of you.
I leave SGM in the hands of God and I pray, “Lord this is your church, your reputation, your people being harmed, your Word being used to put burdens on people too heavy for them to carry, burdens wrongly placed on your Bride in your good name, Lord, it is enough already…remove your hand and may the truth of SGM be hidden no longer but shouted from the roof tops…”
I left a paragraph out of Scott and Connie’s letter when I first posted it.
Please re-read.
My apologies.
As someone who has had to experience some of what “Esther” went thru, I want to thank you for standing with and supporting her (and the other women) with your love, your lives, and your integrity. When one is swirling around in that crazy fog where nothing makes sense and feeling like you’re going to be sucked under and disappear into nothingness, it’s people like you that show us “Jesus with skin” and make us believe, once again, that God really does love and care about us.
{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{ Scott & Connie }}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}
btw: that “no separation” doctrine was taught in my sgm church also.
Scott & Connie,
Thank you for your words and for sharing them here. I understand what you mean regarding a change in church polity, even though we were in situation in a former church that was not in SGM. We saw repentance on the part of some leaders, but no recognition that the root change that was needed was within the procedural structure and implementation of their leadership.
Without this change, we knew we would be hitting another brick wall down the road. Damage had already been done to us and faced with the possibility of seeing more done, either to ourselves or to others we decided to leave. Looking back, it was definitely the best thing to do and I only wish we had been able to do so sooner. The full extent of emotional and spiritual damage was not evident until after we had pulled out.
In thinking about it, perhaps re-examination of leadership polity and procedures requires even more self-examination than coming to repentance regarding a specific sin. It’s a bigger structure with many thought processes and ideas that have been built into it. Rather than dealing with one incident, an entire system has to be evaluated before God.
The pastors touted Piper so much how could they have missed his statement about separation? Piper says, “Divorce may be permitted when a spouse deserts the relationship, commits adultery, or is dangerously abusive (1 Cor. 7:15; Matthew 19:9; 1 Cor. 7:11). [7] We are not here dealing with remarriage (see #4 and #5). We simply acknowledge that there are times when the Bible permits separation.”
http://www.desiringgod.org/Res.....st_Church/
I simply would like to know who these men sought counsel from and why they held to their interpretation so tightly.
Scott and Connie, thank you for allowing the Lord to use you and shinning light on this issue.
Piper has since changed his stance on divorce. He no longer believes it is allowed in any circumstance (which isn’t to say he would have responded in a manner like these pastors).
http://www.desiringgod.org/Res....._adultery/
Dear Viewer,
I believe that at the time none of the SGC women, in mention, were asking for a divorce. They were asking for separation from their spouse. Piper speaks of Redemptive Separation. I know that he has a strong view on divorce and divorce and remarriage. I only bring up Piper because he is in all of the SGC pastor’s libraries and in the church bookstore. ”And God, ultimately, never divorces his people. There are separations: she goes into exile in Babylon….” ~Piper
http://www.desiringgod.org/Res....._adultery/
I could be wrong, but I think that Piper would say that there is a time for separation.
I assume that everyone reading here is familiar with the Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood (http://www.cbmw.org) established in 1987. C.J. Mahaney serves as Vice Chairman of the Board of Directors and John Piper and Bruce Ware are Council Members.
May I draw your attention to a Baptist Briefing on July 2, 2008 (http://www.ethicsdaily.com), and the following headline and introduction to the article:
Scholar Links Spouse Abuse to Wives’ Refusal to Submit to Their Husbands
One reason that men abuse their wives is because women rebel from their husband’s authority, a Southern Baptist scholar said Sunday in a Texas church.
Bruce Ware, professor of Christian theology at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, said women desire to have their own way instead of submitting to their husbands because of sin.
Scott & Connie
Thanks for your strong stand and standing up for Esther.
I am sure this is hard for you leaving a church that you loved and have invested a lot in.
I find this shocking that these pastors and the leadership above them think that just acknowledging their sin was enough. As others have said, would one allow someone to remain as treasurer who stole but then confessed what they did? Why the pastors don’t think their actions have shown them unqualified for leading is shocking. This is especially if this confession of wrong was as coerced as has been shared.
Thanks also to the other 2 couples, and others that stood for Esther.
Unless it has changed, the policy statement mom linked to above does allow for each pastor on staff to act according to conscience. It appears to me that Piper while stating his own beliefs, is presenting the fact that there are differences among their leaders regarding this.
Bruce Ware words, if the report accurately describes what as he meant, are shocking to me.
I would like to add my gratitude and thanks as a fellow believer for Scott and Connie’s love for Christ and for Esther and their courage and wisdom. The things they have written reflect such a calm and reflective attitude in the midst of a difficult situation. Thank you for your example. I pray those who have been through these situations alone will find comfort and realize that there are other believers ready to give help and compassion.
I should have mentioned that earlier and my apologies for not doing so. I was too busy thinking about the words that Scott and Connie wrote without reflecting on what they have been through and the courage they have shown in the process.
Ellie,
Big hugs for you. Knowing a little about what you’ve gone through, I know you understand Esther’s story a little better than most of us. Yet, your heart has remained soft towards the Lord, and very loving to His people. That is a great testimony of what faith you must have! Your tweety friend, Canary
Wanda- to try and be fair here, when we were in PDI Dave Harvey was pushing heavily Doug Wilson’s book Point Man, which puts the responsibility for marriage so extremely on the husband, and blames him so throughly for marital trouble, that I as a wife found it to be unbiblical and far too hard on the men. Marriage takes two people loving God and each other to work, and you can never blame it all on either side.
So, as hideous as Bruce Ware’s comments are, and hideous indeed they are, I don’t know that they should necessarily be presented as the SGM position.
Scott & Connie,
Thank you for describing and embracing the parts of the Full Gospel that SGM has crossed out of their Bibles:
“We desire to walk in the fullness of the Gospel with all the hope and joy that is offered to us. For us, this includes the Conception, Life, Death, Resurrection, and Ascension of Jesus Christ as well as the ministry of the Holy Spirit. In this we have an abundance in Christ including (but certainly not limited to): we have VICTORY in Christ; we are OVERCOMERS in Christ, we are CO-HEIRS with Christ, and our identity is in Christ. We can put sin to death because of the resurrection power dwelling within each believer; that same power that raised Jesus Christ from the dead! We praise and give glory to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. ”
What you have described is the Gospel delivered to the saints by Paul, the other apostles and prophets of the 1st Century. The Church could never have advanced as it did, without this Full Gospel revelation and the unhindered movement of the Holy Spirit through his members.
I hope and pray you will find a new congregational home that teaches and lives this Full Gospel.
Scott and Connie..glad to finally know your names, I’ve been praying for you from down here in Texas, and will continue to my brother and sister..keep being obedient to the Spirit of God..and may He bless your boldness and faith.
Scott and Connie,
Thanks for being such a wonderful caregroup leader & wife for over 4 years to my wife and I. Throughout all of the CG meetings and monthly men’s breakfasts, you have shown myself and many others what it really is like to live in the Word and walk the true walk with Christ. We love you guys…
5 Years in PDI,
Thanks for your comments. I wasn’t presenting Bruce Ware as a representative of SGM’s position per se, but he does have strong ties to C.J. Mahaney through CBMW. FYI – Bruce recently became the president of the Evangelical Theological Society. I will be watching to see whether he pushes his agenda forward in that organization.
Funny that you should mention Doug Wilson. I spent some time researching him last week. Dominionism and reconstructionism . . .
Canary,
thanks for the hugs!!!
Scott and Connie,
I grabbed the same quote from your post as did keep in step. Forgive the repetition, but my heart is so full that I can’t resist!
“We desire to walk in the fullness of the Gospel with all the hope and joy that is offered to us. For us, this includes the Conception, Life, Death, Resurrection, and Ascension of Jesus Christ as well as the ministry of the Holy Spirit. In this we have an abundance in Christ including (but certainly not limited to): we have VICTORY in Christ; we are OVERCOMERS in Christ, we are CO-HEIRS with Christ, and our identity is in Christ. We can put sin to death because of the resurrection power dwelling within each believer; that same power that raised Jesus Christ from the dead! We praise and give glory to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. May we all walk in a manner that is worthy of the Gospel!”
The Conception, Life, Death, Resurrection and Ascension of Jesus Christ! All done for US! Glory be to God! The FULL gospel is overwhelming to my soul. God is so very good.
Praying for you, our dear brother and sister, and all the Chesapeake folks from down here in Georgia as well. GRACE to you!
Ellie,
I did not know. Your story like Esther’s? I am so sorry. I’m going to have to join with canary here by sending some of those sweet hugs of yours right back your way.
{ { { { { { { ELLIE! } } } } } }
Ellie,
I didn’t realize either that your story was like Esther’s.
Hugs from me to { { { { { Ellie } } } } }
Thank you for your sweetness and kindness!
Scott & Connie – thanks for standing up for what is right!!!! You are correct, for SGM to “reform” and “fix the problems”, sgm would no longer look like SGM.
Hi Wanda….
Doug’s worst problem is the Federal Vision teachings which reek of works righteousness. But I figure you know that.
It’s been both helpful and kind of sickening to read here. I used to wonder if CJM was wheat or a tare. I still do not know, only God knows hearts. We have happily gone on with our lives but I can’t help feeling some sorrow about all the folks trapped in what we were in.
We were told by our PDI senior pastor that the church we were going to change to didn’t want the power and presence of the holy spirit the way they did. I know he believed it and was trying to keep us from a big mistake. What is funny is how great it was to go somewhere where the Word and prayer and love of the brethren were so profoundly evident. The holy spirit can give tongues or a prophecy, yeah, but He also wants to bring comfort and love and mercy and help. And there is no difference between the prophecy “My children, the Lord would say to you XYZ”, and somebody praying “oh Lord thank you so much that your word promises us XYZ”. Its the holy spirit talking either way. But one is something we can all participate in, and the other has to come from the carefully screened loyal prophet who gets past the policeman up front.
Ah well, rambling on…
Ellie,
I’m sorry if I spilled any beans. Just to clarify to folks here, I only meant that Ellie would understand Esther’s story, due to being in a similar situation, but not an EXACT one. Ellie, did I say something I shouldn’t have? Bummer. I sincerely hope not. I was just trying to say that I KNOW you understand and feel empathy for Esther. If I shared anything I shouldn’t have, pleeeease forgive me!
Canary,
I don’t presume to speak for Ellie, but I was responding to her post at 3:14 p.m., not anything that you “spilled.” In fact, I think Ellie mentioned it briefly in another thread somewhere?
Scoor & Connie
Thank you for being brave and doing the right thing in the face of opposition. Thanks for standing up for Esther….much peace to you as you begin a new phase in your lives.
All is well, Canary.
Thanks for the hugs from you, Gracie, and Inc. You all are special! :*
5 Years in PDI,
I really appreciate your comments! The presence of the Holy Spirit in our lives is NOT dependent on which church one attends. Perhaps many in SGM do not realize that.
When I was in between churches several years ago, that’s when I felt the strongest presence of the Holy Spirit. It had nothing to do with a church! We are in an intimate relationship with Jesus Christ, and churches are being exclusive when they think they hold the key to the Holy Spirit.
Blessings!
Ellie,
May I ask which sgm you were at? I keep hearing that this SGC doctrine of separation was exclusive of this Chesapeake church. Not that it surprises me though.
Thank you!
I am so delinquent on responding to all of these comments!
Suffice it to say that a lot of wisdom and love for our Savior and His sons and daughters has been eloquently spoken here… from Scott and Connie’s letter (the original post) to all of you who have shared. My faith in Him has grown ever so much stronger because of your love and your insight and your care and concern for one another. (Isn’t that what our lives as Christians should look like?)
Thank you for sharing!