The meeting is over-no CJ.
I’m not posting anything until I hear multiple accounts. I have been told twice in the last 10 minutes that Gene Emerson said:
… well, let’s just say he made an interesting statement about changing their structure.
The meeting is over-no CJ.
I’m not posting anything until I hear multiple accounts. I have been told twice in the last 10 minutes that Gene Emerson said:
… well, let’s just say he made an interesting statement about changing their structure.
January 26th, 2009 at 12:11 am
” have been told twice in the last 10 minutes that Gene Emerson said:
… well, let’s just say he made an interesting statement”
tease
no, i’m glad you’re waiting. truth is too important to mess around with. good for you.
January 26th, 2009 at 3:04 am
Interesting, but hardly suprising, that CJ didn’t show. Aside from a family emergency, I can’t imagine what could have taken precedence over this upheaval in one of “the family’s” churches..
I’m still praying for you guys at Chesapeake…hang in there!
January 26th, 2009 at 5:22 am
I couldn’t sleep… This verse keeps tumbling through my mind — He has shown you, O man, what is good; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justly, To love mercy, And to walk humbly with your God? Micah 6: 7-9
When justice is thwarted, when mercy is redefined to mean the faithful wounds of a friend, and humility (don’t even need to go there, their redefinition of humility is all over this website), when scripture is twisted to fit an ultra-Calvinist, Edwardsian, puritanical focus on indwelling sin, when sheep are battered and bruised and leaders are commended and proud, it seems to me that all is simply lost.
Ironically enough, I will be traveling to Virginia Beach this coming weekend for a college scholarship interview for my daughter. Anyone who wants to meet up and talk, feel free to call me: 704-453-1408. We’re staying at the Founders Inn.
January 26th, 2009 at 7:29 am
FF,
Hang in there, my friend!
God is bringing issues to light that SGM has kept covered for far too long. He is at work, and He has His own perfect timing. (It usually gets ugly and messy before it gets better…)
I was thinking last night as I was drifting off to sleep… how kind and gracious of God to bring us all through our SGM experiences, to have the clouds lifted from our minds, to see truth, to see the error within SGM, and to gather us together in a place like this… I mean, WHO KNEW??? The internet, on BLOGS, for goodness’ sake!! But here we are, ready to help the broken, the wounded, the bleeding, the disenchanted. All because of God… He had(s) a plan for us, and, I believe a big part of His immediate plan, is to use us to help bring His sons and His daughters out of darkness and into His glorious freedom.
To see these things happening, to see eyes being opened, to see God moving… I am encouraged and excited! What my family went through to be prepared for today and the days ahead is worth all of the pain and tears in order to be able to help the many who will be stumbling out of SGM’s “family of churches” doors. And I know that you and many others feel the same way about your SGM experiences, and will be there to catch them and hold them and tell them the Truth!
He has raised up an army of believers to stand fast, to pray, to seek Him on behalf of our family that we left behind. My heart and my head tells me that it’s not all for nothing…
How amazing is God!!!!
January 26th, 2009 at 8:09 am
I was really hoping to be proven wrong this time.
Sigh.
January 26th, 2009 at 9:16 am
Hi Refugees
Juli’s comment “Interesting, but hardly suprising, that CJ didn’t show” made me think of something as I have been pondering SGM’s, and specifically CJ Mahaney’s approach and response to discord and dissension within SGM churches. At least in the past. Perhaps the fact that SGM has a few watchdogs now has scared the man away from trespassing so freely upon the rights of others.
I mean, in the past (and again, we’ll see if this changes…which I have no doubt it will) CJ or one of his goons would swoop into a church, position themselves behind a pulpit, tell people essentially they needed to be a JOY, get with the program, and go along with whatever changes were being made and if one did NOT, they were selfish sinners who were standing in the way of the advancement of the gospel.
When sitting there, on a Sunday, during church, is anyone given the opportunity to aska question? Raise their hand? Challenge the speaker in some way?
That would be a big negatory, good buddy.
CJ is loud, overbearing, and domineering. As long as he is the one with the microphone, calling the shots, he’s fine. He’s the big man. He’s the leader of leaders.
But what happens when CJ is tested? What happens when and if CJ Mahaney allows for questions? What will CJ Mahaney do when confronted with some of the good people that think he’s a coward and a jerk?
CJ Mahaney doesn’t show up for the game. Hmm. Maybe he doesn’t have game after all. In his world, you either play his game, by his rules, or he doesn’t play at all. So much for training his son to be a good sport. A good sport at least tries to handle the truth, instead of letting it, like an abandoned basketball, sit on the sidelines without so much as a dribble.
January 26th, 2009 at 9:27 am
Claireon said:
“When sitting there, on a Sunday, during church, is anyone given the opportunity to aska question? Raise their hand? Challenge the speaker in some way?
That would be a big negatory, good buddy.
CJ is loud, overbearing, and domineering. As long as he is the one with the microphone, calling the shots, he’s fine. He’s the big man. He’s the leader of leaders.”
I remember reading one blog where the person writing was comparing a sheep vs. wolf just like Christ tells us to be on the look out for. A “wolf” is typically very domineering as you just described. Maybe Mahaney is a wolf in sheep’s clothing as it is starting to appear?
January 26th, 2009 at 10:25 am
This is not fun
Every last shred of hope I had for any integrity, honesty, care and “love for the local church” I thought CJ Mahaney had is now gone.
ZERO
January 26th, 2009 at 10:36 am
This is not fun,
Please elaborate. Were you at the meeting?
January 26th, 2009 at 10:37 am
The meeting last night was NOT an open forum so “the children’s bedtimes could be respected”. But the pastors “drove separate from their families so they could stay as late afterward to answer any questions”. My heart is aching.
Keith read a written apology to cover cover the grievances that the “three couples” brought forth, that the pastoral staff agreed that they had comitted (I think it was 5 of the 9 charges). But he did say that they disagreed with the couples resolution (ie stepping down).
He then briefly told what the remaining charges were & that they disagreed were sinful on their part.
The other pastors (Brett, Chris, Trevor & Eric- who came back from pastors college to attend last night) then came up & stood behind him as he again said we’re sorry. Then the majority of the church members stood up clapping.
Gene Emerson was in attendance last night & wrapped the night up with handing out copies of an article titled “Should You Pass on Bad Reports?” by Tim Keller & David Powlison. He spoke briefly on this topic but I will admit that by this point I mentally checked out as I could listen no more.
I’m simply trying to give a factual account of last night’s occurences. I did see 2 of the “three couples” in attendance last night, but as I mentioned it was not an open forum so no one heard from them.
Still in awe & shock this morning.
My faith remains that God is awesome & will overcome. My trust is in Him alone.
I’m deeply saddened but off to crack the yellow pages for a new church home.
January 26th, 2009 at 10:42 am
Soon-
I’m so sorry.
Thank you for posting.
January 26th, 2009 at 10:49 am
Soon Ex,
I’m sorry what you’re going through. I am guessing it must feel like a time of death for you. Praying for you all down there.
Stunned
January 26th, 2009 at 10:49 am
A few points that I found very encouraging last night at the Chesapeake family meeting;
1. Keith announced that they would be forming a ‘women’s counseling team’ with women on it. (this news was welcomed by the enthusiastic applause of the church)
2. A change in the position of ‘marital separation’. (previously the leadership did not embrace any marital separation or divorce and have admitted that doctrinally this was wrong, and that there are legitimate cases where separation would be wise.)
3. The church will increase benevolence 10 times the amount of 2007.
4. Quicker responses to the needs of the church. (a person will receive an e’mail or call the same day, and if needed counseling scheduled within 3 days)
5. Five pastors stood up before the church, in a public admission to sin, and a commitment to change.
January 26th, 2009 at 10:50 am
I just Googled and one can see a copy of this “bad reports” document at:
http://theologica.blogspot.com.....ss-on.html
I will take a look at it myself.
January 26th, 2009 at 10:55 am
Stein,
I’m assuming since these changes are being brought about by the input of the 3 couples, that they were honored at the meeting, and that Gene repented of his “enemies of the church” characterization?
January 26th, 2009 at 11:01 am
SoonEx
There were a number of positive points that were addressed last night and a plan to move forward. We’re still walking through this. This isn’t going to be over for a while. If you went into the meeting with a negative ‘woe is me’ attitude then that’s exactly what you got out of it. You must have heard something positive from the meeting.
January 26th, 2009 at 11:06 am
Stein,
Any mention of the 3 couples?
January 26th, 2009 at 11:18 am
Stein,
I agree that those points are all encouraging & important so thank you for reminding me of those.
My question regarding your #1: WHO will head up that new team? I think that considering “Esther’s” situation, this is a subject/ team that needs to be carefully watched with much accountability.
#2 AMEN…. but the verse they were referring to in giving the “no separation counsel” is I Corinthians 7: 10 “…the wife should not separate from her husband.” What makes my heart very heavy & concerned. How is that they chose to not acknowledge the very next verse (7:11) “but if she does she should remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband, and the husband should not divorce his wife.” For “Esther’s” sake how did they miss that verse?
#3 “Increased benevolence”… While I applaud this effort, if you’ve seen the annual financial report this is still just a drop in the bucket & almost embarrassing for a church of our size to give to its own in need.
#4 &5… Amen & thank you Lord!!
I’m not trying to stir anything up & no, I did not go into the meeting with a “woe is me” attitude, but on my knees all week in prayer.
I just think that the facts need to ALL be on the table & last night (I felt) was one-sided. So many people desperately wanted to hear from anyone of the 3 couples. I’m very grateful to God for the changes that have been committed to happen. Sadly, my trust is broken & I don’t think that should come from a pastor.
January 26th, 2009 at 11:27 am
Jim
In regards to the 3 couples, Keith publicly expressed thankfulness to them, as well as a deep appreciation. “Precious” was the word he used. Is change being brought about because of these 3 couples? Its obvious that God used them to bring about much of the changes we saw initiated last night. Gene did not speak about the 3 couples, unless he addressed them after the meeting. I have heard differing opinions on how the comment “enemies of the church” was used. My understanding is that comment was used in the future tense, to say that’s what they would be if the letter from the 6 was ‘taken to the church.’
In light of all thats happened recently, I really don’t know where Gene stands on that particular comment.
January 26th, 2009 at 11:29 am
It was interesting to me to hear keith B. mentioning Sunday morning that the pastors would be open to discussion after the meeting, then why was the music started RIGHT after Gene E. spoke. hmmmm maybe to avoid anyone speaking up in front of all to hear????
January 26th, 2009 at 11:38 am
Thanks SoonEx
Personally I plan to walk through the process within the church. Now that everything is in the light, ourhope is that there will be a deeper sense of accountability from the leadership, to the flock.
January 26th, 2009 at 11:47 am
Stein, I don’t know any other way of saying this other than bluntly. You are dead wrong!
I read the article Jim linked to, and this paragraph stands out to me:
The link of slander to pride in James 4:10 shows that slander is not the humble evaluation of error or fault, which we must constantly be doing. Rather, in slander the speaker speaks as if he never would do the same thing himself. It acts self-righteous and superior toward one’s obviously idiotic inferiors. Non-slanderous evaluation is fair-minded, constructive, gentle, guarded, and always demonstrates that speakers sense how much they share the same frailty, humanity, and sinful nature with the one being criticized…
I believe my friends exhibited all these characteristics when they evaluated the error or fault in Chesapeake (which, according to the article is what we are to be constantly doing). But the whole idea that a pamphlet like this would be passed out at the meeting rather than a letter of apology and a plan for change is abhorrent to me. I’m going to have to stop and pray before I say something stronger than I already have. But really, Stein. You are deceiving yourself. I want to knock some sense into you, but that is not my job. I’m not your Messiah. (Thanks, Vince!) But please pray for God to reveal His truth, His will, His plan to you. Read the Bible for yourself. Concentrate SOLELY on the words in red for several weeks and get a real understanding of what Jesus really said before you agree to sit under this teaching any longer. I’m begging you.
January 26th, 2009 at 11:50 am
Concerning “bad reports” and the link that Steve posted, I read a great comment in reply to the original blog posting:
Gordon Cheng said…
ChrisB has it. The apostle Paul would have failed this test.
Chris links to 2 Tim 4, but we could also mention Philippians 4:2, where Euodia and Syntyche’s disagreement is recorded for posterity and for our edification; we might also quiz Luke on why he had to name Ananias and Sapphira in Acts 5, for their names are surely not necessary to convey the warning that the passage intends.
Returning to Paul, we could mention his public shaming of the apostle Peter in Galatians 2. If it had happened in the heat of the moment, we might excuse the event, but Paul is reporting on it some time later and using it as a part of the justification of his apostolic ministry.
And, I wonder if you could take any Cretan seriously after reading Titus 2:12.
Also, what do you make of the gospel writers exposing the betrayal of Judas, the spinelessness of Peter, and the inconsistency, hypocrisy and cowardice of the entire group of disciples right through Jesus’ ministry, and even after his resurrection (see Mt 28: 17b)?
I suppose you could argue that this was not slandering Christians, since the Holy Spirit hadn’t yet come, but I can see a few holes in that line of thinking.
So the advice that Tim and David give is useful but flawed, because it relies on selective attention to New Testament teaching.
8/05/2008 06:43:00 PM
January 26th, 2009 at 11:52 am
Stein,
You’re drinking the kool-aid, and I don’t mean a personal attack by that statement. You and others like you in the Body of Christ need to open your eyes and realize you are being manipulated. Manipulated by MEN, men who at times are not guided by the Holy Spirit. Wake up, people!
Last night was a whitewash, pure and simple. Yes, I was at the meeting. I was sitting right behind one of “Esther’s” daughters. I was glad she came to witness the meeting. The pastors asked for forgiveness and said they repented (we’ll see…true repentance is a turning away from sin…let’s see if they uphold their end of the bargain over time) and promised the changes will be implemented as they said. For example, how can a Women’s Counseling Team work in a church that doesn’t believe women should have any type of leadership responsibilities? Sometimes I believe women are treated as second class citizens/members in SGM churches. The meeting concluded with a word by Gene Emerson, a word that was basically a rebuke. A rebuke for members “passing on bad reports.” Once again, Gene Emerson, Sovereign Grace Church Chesapeake, and Soveign Grace Ministries is trying to squelch information from legitimately being passed on to members. It was obvious he had media outlets like this blog in mind.
Gene Emerson, when questioned by myself and a few others after the meeting, stated the pastors weren’t responsible to anyone, not to the congregation, himself, or the SGM Apostolic Team. Interesting, huh? Why are we a part of SGM then…to just send them 10% of our tithes and offerings to run that ministry? Going further along the lines of the responsibilites of members and leaders, Mr Emerson, when also asked if Catholic congregations had a right to ask for their priests ouster during the molestation tragedies, responded “I believe the congregations asking for their resignation was uncalled for.” Evidently Gene Emerson believes anyone in church authority (Apostolic Team, Elder, Pastor) is immune from being responsible to anyone. They are untouchable.
Two of the three couples handed Keith Breault, Sr Pastor, their membership resignation letters last night. I predict the third will follow shortly when he/they realize they’ll be “persona non grata” within that church. The standing ovation by the crowd (minus one…me) literally made my stomach turn. I’ve got to hand it to Keith and Gene: they are good, polished speakers and know exactly what to say to put out the fire that is raging in the church body. I’m not buying it, however.
I’ve drafted my membership resignation letter also…it will be sent after my wife has a looksee at it and her “chop” on it. It will be sent by email tomorrow with a hard copy by snail mail later on this week. I also have the email addresses for the entire church in a draft email ready to go and everyone will know when we leave. I may even attach a copy of our resignation letter. We won’t be one of the walking wounded drifting off with everyone wondering where we went that has been so common in the past.
I realize former members are shunned but there are a few I will stay in touch/associate with. I would say over half of my former caregroup will be gone from the church within a month. Several others I talked to last night are leaving as well. Make no mistake, I am not bitter but simply cannot attend a church with such a flawed view or under such a flawed system any longer. I will find a new church and will participate as a member in that church but never again will I put my full trust in any men/women or a church, only will I put that trust in our Lord Jesus Christ, the ONE who will never let anyone down.
I’ll post more later. And yes, I recorded the meeting last night with a digital recorder. As soon as I figure it out how to get it on my computer and put it on a website or email it, I’ll let Jim know.
January 26th, 2009 at 11:55 am
Stein,
Expressing thanks to those couples was not enough. They were made out to be “enemies of the church” by Gene Emerson and Keith Breault at the invitation-only secret meeting on Dec 20.
They deserved a public apology from Keith and Gene in front of the entire church at last nights meeting. Once again, the leadership team let their pride get in the way of doing the right thing.
January 26th, 2009 at 12:17 pm
Live Wire-
Re the 3 couples-you are dead on.
Remember, you are not resigning from leadership. You are resigning from membership in a church, therefore the entire membership should receive your resignation.
Thank you so much for your comments!
January 26th, 2009 at 12:20 pm
Stein,
Give it up. We’ve both done what we can to present a fair and reasonable account of what’s going on here, but the folks who post on this blog aren’t interested in anything that doesn’t reinforce their established conclusions. I’ve come back only to see exactly how last night’s meeting would be mischaracterized and our pastors demonized again.
E-mail me at barbaricyawp43@gmail.com and we can go knock back a stein somewhere.
January 26th, 2009 at 12:24 pm
LiveWire,
We must have been on opposite sides of the church since I was within a group of approximately 10 who also did not stand in applause. It broke my heart that the pastors did not exhibit true humility by hushing the ovation. That would have moved me.
We cannot forget what truly needs to be the bottom line: honoring our glorious God Almighty and ONLY His will for the Body.
To those that chose to stay, I beg you to be steadfast in your prayer life that God will show the truth & be glorified.
January 26th, 2009 at 12:38 pm
Livewire wrote:simply cannot attend a church with such a flawed view or under such a flawed system any longer.
Me – Livewire, that is exactly why I left the Ches church back in 96. Nothing appers to haver changed, in fact things seem to have gotten worse
January 26th, 2009 at 12:42 pm
Soonex – you are to be commended for not standing and applauding to what appears (from BY and SM’s comments) a masterful job of manipulation from the pulpit. And, fo course the “bad report” article. Next step: anyone that posts on a blog will be entered into trhe “church dicipline” process……
As far as Gene’s comments about how they think they have a “biblical” leadership structure – is anyone at all suprised they said that won’t change? I am not at all suprised.
January 26th, 2009 at 12:42 pm
Barbaric Yawp,
I’m glad only you and others like you saw “a fair and reasonable account” at last night’s meeting. That’s enlightening. Only people that see it their (pastor’s) way have it right….as usual. Sorry but there are those of us more willing to follow God the Father rather than a group of misguided pastors. However, I pray for them…and especially the flock they are getting fat off of.
January 26th, 2009 at 12:42 pm
B. Yawp,
I must defend my friends, here, especially Jim. You have been given every opportunity to express your thoughts, yet you are upset because we have answers to your opinions. At least Stein showed some openness in his posting, openness to think for himself. You, however, are so quick to point out people’s motives, which I believe are unfounded. Could it be that you have your own agenda, and are offended that you could accomplish none of it here?
At least your were heard. I’m really not sure you listened, though. Have you read anything on the “my story” site?
Sad that this is your take on the posters here who have been gracious to you. We appreciated hearing your side of things, and understand your need to defend your pastors.
We just see things differently. Please, read the story site, at least once.
January 26th, 2009 at 12:43 pm
Live Wire, I’d be happy to help get that recording online. (I’m a “web guy” and have some audio conversion software that we can use to make sure the recording’s internet-friendly. Shoot, I might even be able to help you get the recording onto your computer.) If I can be of service, just ask Jim to pass you my contact info.
January 26th, 2009 at 12:44 pm
Barbaric Yawp said:
“Stein, Give it up. We’ve both done what we can to present a fair and reasonable account of what’s going on here, but the folks who post on this blog aren’t interested in anything that doesn’t reinforce their established conclusions. I’ve come back only to see exactly how last night’s meeting would be mischaracterized and our pastors demonized again.”
Allow me to translate-
Stein, these people have seen this all before and won’t be fooled by your spin.
January 26th, 2009 at 12:48 pm
B. Yawp – Your pastors are not being “demonized.” They admitted to handling Esther’s situation unbiblically, did they not? This is a situation of their own creation.
I can understand your questioning the perspectives of SGM critics who aren’t members of your church and weren’t at the meeting and thinking that we have an “established position.” But the fact is that there are a number of commenters here who are your fellow SGC members and see things very differently than you do. These SGC members did not create this blog; they did not have an “established position” until they began to suspect that the pastors were not behaving in a trustworthy manner. So maybe you should look a bit harder at your church given that people who have been members for years are now ready to pack up and leave . . .
January 26th, 2009 at 12:50 pm
Jim,
January 26th, 2009 at 12:52 pm
work-in-progress,
January 26th, 2009 at 12:52 pm
Some things that bother me a great deal:
The control that was evident at the meeting:
1. Setting a limit on time by using children’s bedtime as a reason to end.
2. Letting children be there. Parents would be conscious of what their children were hearing and seeing.
3. No open Q & A time to thoroughly discuss things.
The tit for tat by handing out that paper:
1. Esther’s story is horrific. No milder word can describe it. It went on for years. Handing out that paper was more damage control.
2. I see it as a rebuke to those who have tried to change the situation by bringing things to light and as a warning to others not to do so.
January 26th, 2009 at 1:02 pm
This may seem like a random thought but here it is. I just want to say that Brian Wasko was one of the most gifted pastors that has ever been on staff at SGC. I would love to have him as the youth pastor at any church that I would ever attend. Let’s hope that his eyes have been opened and that he sees the whole truth. Let’s call for them to bring him back! Or better yet, let’s hope that Brian moves forward in the calling that God has for him in pastoral ministry! :)
January 26th, 2009 at 1:02 pm
I’m sorry if the mee-ting yesterday went the way of the ordinary. I think it will become impossible for these people who think differently to remain. We are watching another heart-breaker, folks. As I said before, uniformity is the treasure most protected in what I remember of SGM. That and their doctrine (which has alot of problems, unfortunately, when it involves “authority”). Also, CJ not being there makes sense. If he had come, it would have shown that the local leaders could not handle things on their own. That would not have been good for their leadership rep. They are looking for undiluted trust from their members. Having CJ there to bail them out would might say something like, “Hey, we don’t know how to handle this.”
I am glad that they “repented” on some things. Time will tell.
January 26th, 2009 at 1:03 pm
Why is it that the Denver pastor has stepped down from ministry and yet these pastors in Chesapeake remain above reproach? I see a shifting line here. What is the standard that is required to be a SG pastor?
January 26th, 2009 at 1:06 pm
to kiss butt well?
January 26th, 2009 at 1:11 pm
I’d also like to know if anything was said at the meeting about helping Esther now. Was an offer made to help her financially? To pay for counseling?
Esther has pain to work through. Her children have double damage. That done by their father and that done by church leaders who should have been there to step in and protect Esther and the family.
Will they be there to help this dear family? Will the leaders go back to try to do what they can to repair?
I cannot help but think of Jesus’ words when He said that is you cause a little one to stumble or sin it’s better that a millstone be hung around your neck and be cast into the sea.
(Matthew 18:1-5, Mark 9:42, Luke 17:1-4. I didn’t realize until I was looking it up that this is mentioned in 3 gospels).
There will be huge issues of trust for all of them. Those of us who have been through the heavy hand of leaders realize this. My own dad was abusive. There have been many times I struggled to trust God over the years and believe that He loved me. The church situation I went through resurfaced issues for me.
I just really feel for the children. May God have mercy on them and shelter and pour out His love on them.
January 26th, 2009 at 1:17 pm
mom said, “Why is it that the Denver pastor has stepped down from ministry and yet these pastors in Chesapeake remain above reproach? I see a shifting line here. What is the standard that is required to be a SG pastor? ”
Steve240 and I have asked that question several times. We still scratch our heads, right Steve240? Can someone who is still in SG answer this question? It is an anomaly that sticks out like a troll’s head from under a bridge.
January 26th, 2009 at 1:21 pm
Great question, Mom: “ What is the standard that is required to be a SG pastor?” Seems like that has not been answered. Although, if you check out the current New Members manual it spells it out pretty clearly. So, has anyone in leadership answered the question of what disqualifies a man from pastoral ministry and when a man is no longer above reproach? We have seen 3 men taken out over the years at SGC for issues of giftings and no character issues. No one really explained what these gifting issues were though. Now that there are character issues revealed, the leadership is silent. HMMMM!?!
Does anyone know the real story of why the Denver pastor stepped down?
January 26th, 2009 at 1:28 pm
Juli said:
“Interesting, but hardly suprising, that CJ didn’t show. Aside from a family emergency, I can’t imagine what could have taken precedence over this upheaval in one of “the family’s” churches.”
Thought I’d give you the 411 on C.J. and why he was probably unable to make it to Chesapeake for the church meeting. You see, C.J., his son, and his son-in-law were in North Carolina over the weekend. On Saturday they attended the Duke/Maryland basketball game. FYI – Duke slaughtered Maryland by 41 points! Go DUKE!!!
Yesterday morning C.J. spoke at Sovereign Grace Church in Apex, North Carolina and spent about 10 minutes regaling the congregation about the previous day’s experience and why he absolutely HATES Duke, which just happens to be my Alma Mater!!!
C.J. proceeded to speak on “Cravings and Conficts” and used James 4:1-3 as his text. One of the highlights of his message was “Wherever there is a conflict, there is an unsatisfied sinful craving.” He then asked the congregation to memorize these three words: “Cravings underlie conflict.” To further explain what he meant, C.J. said that you fight because you don’t get what you want.
The church service (meeting) ended shortly after noon, so I guess it was impossible for him to drive to Chesapeake and arrive in time. Who knows? It obviously wasn’t a priority.
January 26th, 2009 at 1:31 pm
There are definitely different standards with pastors, and the “apostolic” leadership within SGM. Some pastors are asked to step down for a “lack of gifting”. Some are asked to step aside to make room for younger, more moldable PC graduates. Some are asked to make way for an apostle’s son or son-in-law to come on staff. Some are asked to leave, because of questionable family issues (uncontrollable sons or daughters). Yet, some remain, despite abusing their power, critical, obvious issues with their children, lack of care, and other obvious, inexcusable offenses and character flaws. What keeps these men in place is a mystery.
January 26th, 2009 at 1:34 pm
I would like to know about the Denver pastor also. He was my first caregroup leader in the Virginia Beach/Chesapeake. I always thought very highly of him and still do.
January 26th, 2009 at 1:40 pm
I know why he stepped down, but will wait for someone to reveal the backstory himself.
The “official” word is that David B retired.
January 26th, 2009 at 1:41 pm
The south Denver pastor, Keith Jacob, stepped down last June. That is who I’m talking about. From what we now hear, the pastor of the North Denver church is going ot be stepping down sometime soon (check out sgmsurvivors.com for that story). This South Denver pastor, Dave Bendinelli, from what I’m told, was also a pastor at the Chesapeake church before going to Denver. But, I’m talking about Keith Jacob.
For Shank, “lack of gifting” was a good ‘catchphrase’ for a time. I don’t know if it will keep working. Perhaps Bendinelli will be submissive enough to go with the “retiring” word.
Denver pastor stepped down because he “lacked the gifting of a senior pastor.”
The odd thing is that he was the ONLY pastor. Shank never clarified what the gifting requirements are for an “only” pastor and he did not clarify what the giftings that lacked in the Denver pastor.
So, of course, the mystery continues.
Evidently this is the same reason the senior pastor at the San Diego church is giving up his position for a kid. Oh, the guy was a pastor in another church for over 20 years and at the conference in 2005, Shank went on and on about how wonderful he was. So, just 3 years later, though “a year and a half process,” Shank’s boy is no longer gifted. He’ll be teaching his replacement how to preach in the coming months so that he’ll be a good senior pastor.
January 26th, 2009 at 1:43 pm
http://www.sourcewatch.org/ind.....Propaganda
January 26th, 2009 at 2:00 pm
Thanks Mom for the website. From http://www.sourcewatch.org/ind…..Propaganda
“Propaganda is a specific type of message presentation, aimed at serving an agenda. Even if the message conveys true information, it may be partisan and fail to paint a complete picture. The book Propaganda And Persuasion defines propaganda as “the deliberate, systematic attempt to shape perceptions, manipulate cognitions, and direct behavior to achieve a response that furthers the desired intent of the propagandist.”
January 26th, 2009 at 2:06 pm
I should withhold final comments until we can get recording of the meeting online, but IMHO, Stein’s comments on the meeting are encouraging. Although I agree the comments and changes do not go nearly far enough, they are uncharacteristically responsive of SGM leadership. I guess one lesson to learn is that SGM members need to back each other up one when anyone is abused, and to do so publicly, persistently, and en mass.
On the issue of leadership choices and gifting. For all my years at SGM, I could never find any consistent principle for leadership choices (other than being a “yes man”). Character and gifting are not always the most important factors. I maintain that these decisions are made by a small group of people on a subjective basis and communicated in a way that makes leadership look good. The real reasons behind leadership selection and dismissal are rarely, if ever discussed publicly. You have to know someone involved really well to find out.
January 26th, 2009 at 2:06 pm
Freedom,
Thank you for your comment “Soonex – you are to be commended for not standing and applauding to what appears (from BY and SM’s comments) a masterful job of manipulation from the pulpit.”
But please, I’m not here for commendation. GOD deserves ALL of the glory. I just felt lead to post my view of what happened last night. I shouldn’t have mentioned that I didn’t stand in applause. Please forgive.
January 26th, 2009 at 2:06 pm
Live Wire’s comment had the edge of the sword to it, which is exactly what SGM needs. Maybe some men think that brushing things aside will solve problems. Other men know it takes action and the use of force. Staying a member of an unrepentant* church that takes advantage of its own goes beyond namby pamby. It strikes me as being of the kind of insipidness that Jesus referred to when He said, “Since you are lukewarm and neither hot nor cold, I am going to spit you out of my mouth.”
Live Wire’s response to the situation demonstrates the kind of character, directness, emotional and moral strength that is needed under the circumstance. I commend him wholeheartedly for his, and his wife’s resolve! Now, THAT is inspired leadership!
*As someone has said, repentance must be proven. The fact the 3 couples are leaving signals the genuineness of the church’s repentance more than anything else. Surely, since they were the ones to identify the problems, they would be the best ones to judge the appropriateness of the response. Their leaving speaks for itself.
January 26th, 2009 at 2:08 pm
Stein, you said: “Now that everything is in the light, ourhope is that there will be a deeper sense of accountability from the leadership, to the flock.”
I hope you meant to say there will be a deeper sense of accountability from the FLOCK TO the leadership. Leadership is the one who needs accountability from WITHIN the Body, not just from above, the apostles, etc. Apostles don’t have a clue what is going on cause they never talk to the flock, they only talk to the leaders.
So how would you think that conversation would go?
Apostle: “Pastor so-and-so, how are things with your flock?”
Pastor: “just great, thanks for asking.”
What else would the pastor say? He could endanger his calling, gifting, or job! Anything negative could be construed as the pastor being unequipped or lacking “gifting” as so many other pastors have been accused of.
How else do you think the apostles get word of problems? Not from the flock as was the case in Chesapeake, they hear struggles from the pastors themselves, who never would imagine the apostle would turn on them and remove them..
hearing complaints from the flock, however, is totally different. They must side with the leaders in that case. Otherwise anarchy breaks out.
January 26th, 2009 at 2:10 pm
haha, my anarchy comment reminded me of the scene in The Breakfast Club where Judd Nelson asks the teacher “Why does HE get to get up? If he gets up, we’ll all get up, it’ll be anarchy!”
January 26th, 2009 at 2:15 pm
Livewire, you said: “Make no mistake, I am not bitter but simply cannot attend a church with such a flawed view or under such a flawed system any longer. I will find a new church and will participate as a member in that church but never again will I put my full trust in any men/women or a church, only will I put that trust in our Lord Jesus Christ, the ONE who will never let anyone down. ”
Amen, and amen. Keep following the truth, the Spirt of God, I am so encouraged you are not fearing man, but God. You certainly don’t sound like a man-pleaser, and as if this whole experience has caused you to walk away stronger and wiser, that is what it is all about, beloved!
January 26th, 2009 at 2:22 pm
For the record, mapquest says it is a four hour drive from Apex, NC to Chesepeake VA. CJ could have made the drive if he wanted to do so.
January 26th, 2009 at 2:23 pm
Mole, you said: To further explain what he meant, C.J. said that you fight because you don’t get what you want.
I actually agree with this, but it has to be interpreted properly. It is true that our lusts (desires) cause conflicts in the Body, as James taught.
But this also goes for leaders as well – why are they “fighting” back with a letter like Gene passed out? Because they are protecting their interests (lusts) be it power, control, whatever. Leaders do this to. And to use such a Scripture in the context of calling out SIN is not proper exegesis–I don’t think I have EVER used that word before, did I used it correctly?haha
So once again, CJ has a partial truth in what he is teaching, but he has the context wrong in which he applies the truth, which he often does. He has it wrong because he is twisting Scripture for his own agenda, – ironically, which causes, um, conflicts in the Body! But when you point out the problems that result, you are accused of (shock) it being YOUR sin and your wrong lust or desire. It never occurs to them that they also might be acting on personal lusts.
January 26th, 2009 at 2:27 pm
Former,
I guess CJ felt that sending Gene Emerson would suffice… since he did such a bang up job last time…
January 26th, 2009 at 2:37 pm
Controlling churches want uniformity. They NEED unity, which can only happen with the Holy Spirit. Having the Spirit be free to move takes control from the leadership. Why, ANYTHING could happen!
Example: My ex-pastor decided that folks were putting too much enfisis on their clothing on Sunday mornings. I guess he felt that some of us were vain by dressing up. Don’t know exactly. For me, it was the only day of the week in which to wear something prettier than sweats! Anyway, the Pastor started showing up in casual clothing and, wouldn’t you know, the whole congregation began doing the same thing. It seemed that it was now “illegal” to put attention on dressing nicely, just as it was “illegal” to show up late to the meeting, or ”illegal” to put any book on the book table not approved by the pastors, or “illegal” to show Veggie Tales in the children’s ministry or…I could go on. Just another law to follow.
I thought this was a good example of how uniformity works. Unity can only come from the Holy Spirit. If He isn’t allowed in, then there will be no unity. How this fits in with the conversation is that CJ is teaching a partial truth. It is not wrong to fight for good or for God – Jesus would be a sinner when he had conflict with the Pharisees! This is just another way to manipulate the body into avoiding conflict WITH LEADERSHIP! What do you get then? Uniformity! No original thought whatsoever.
January 26th, 2009 at 2:44 pm
Hi. There are a few inaccuracies about what pastor was a what church.
I know it’s confusing, because each of the churches was listed with “Denver” in the description.
Keith Jacobs was at the South Denver (Highlands Ranch) church, then his church moved to Aurora (East Denver).
David Bendinelli was at the North Denver (Westminster) church.
January 26th, 2009 at 2:47 pm
Canary, problem is, people see uniformity, and they THINK it is unity! I know I did. But what gives more glory to God? Hundreds of people who dress alike, all homeschool, talk alike, read the same books, read the same Bible translation, shave their heads, like the same preachers and teachers, sing the same songs, go to the same conferences, etc. who “get along” OR hundreds of people who have numerous differences in areas of dress, schooling, worship, Bible translation, etc and “get along”?
I think it is clear- uniformity is NOT unity. And SGM is uniform, but not united with the REST of the Body of Christ. Which, as RT reminds us, does actually exist outside SGM!!
January 26th, 2009 at 2:50 pm
Just say no — to Kool Aid
January 26th, 2009 at 1:21 pm — Great question, Mom: “ What is the standard that is required to be a SG pastor?” Seems like that has not been answered. Although, if you check out the current New Members manual it spells it out pretty clearly. So, has anyone in leadership answered the question of what disqualifies a man from pastoral ministry and when a man is no longer above reproach? We have seen 3 men taken out over the years at SGC for issues of giftings and no character issues. No one really explained what these gifting issues were though. Now that there are character issues revealed, the leadership is silent. HMMMM!?!
Does anyone know the real story of why the Denver pastor stepped down?
–
I can personally attest to you that there were also serious character/sin issues with David Bendinelli, and with his whole flock of pastors. VERY, VERY SERIOUS.
January 26th, 2009 at 2:50 pm
People, I would encourage you to not be, ‘ easily offended’.
Proverbs 18:19
A brother offended is harder to win than a strong city, And contentions are like the bars of a castle
Proverbs 19:11
A man’s wisdom gives him patience; it is to his glory to overlook an offense.
Hey Live Wire are you going to tell the other 650 people in your membership resignation letter that they’re all Kool-Aid drinkers?
Freedom Fighter I’m not a pastor or a former pastor, or a future pastor. Anyway surely you don’t think that all the teaching I/we sit under is flawed, and cult-like, do you? When I’ve heard a message from the pulpit, whether it was from CJ, Brent, Gene, or Keith, many times I’ve went to the word to confirm that what I was hearing was from the word. And there have been instances where I didn’t agree with them. They were not salvation issues. I’m what you would refer to as a ‘Doubting Thomas’, I have to proof read a xerox. So I’m not there to drink Kool-Aid, and or be manipulated. I don’t believe everything people tell me. Maybe there are some who do. There is no perfect church, and I could probably find dirt on most churches that are so called, ‘Christian’, but right now I believe that God has called us there. I don’t write this flippantly or without much prayer. When its time to go, God will lead us. I’ve been a member of other ministries and I’ve seen flaws in all of them, some even much bigger than SGM. I look at last nights meeting, though in some ways incomplete, a step in the right direction. I love and respect the pastors but have no particular allegiance or favoritism with them, they are sinners like myself struggling with the same sins I struggle with. I’m not there to suck up to the ministry, I’m there to serve the Lord Jesus Christ.
Barbaric Yawp I’m always ready for a stein
January 26th, 2009 at 2:51 pm
beloved of God,
I’m referring to David Bendinelli.
January 26th, 2009 at 3:19 pm
Beloved,
If this is true about Dave Bendinelli and his staff (and I’m assuming from your comment that it is), then:
1. Why isn’t he immediately removed.
2. Why isn’t he put under church discipline and forced to go through that process.
3. Why isn’t he forced to tell the entire church, item by item, what the sins are that he is being removed for.
4. Why don’t they have a meeting and allow for public questions.
5. Why doesn’t Steve Shank come in, tell the TRUTH and spend the time necessary to resolve any and all unresolved questions and issues?
Because it’s all covered up with the “lack of gifting” catchphrase. There are certainly people who remain in the North Denver church who love Bendinelli, his staff and SGM. Those people would not be good ones to upset, right? Because if they get upset and leave, who will be left?
The risk of validating the people who were sinned against and left is the risk of the entire church “going under.” Because how are they going to make the offended parties happy and get them to come back? It’s likely that they see Bendinelli’s issues as ministry-wide, top-down, pervasive and they would not go back to a SGM church.
I think they have to go to the church and make it look really pretty, “lack of gifting,” “retiring” or whatever. That way they can keep the most people happy and the least amount of collateral damage.
Excellent business tactics. Biblical? I don’t think so. Doesn’t seem that deceit is a very good foundation.
January 26th, 2009 at 3:23 pm
One thing I would add here is that had SGC not been under watchful eyes, like with this blog, the actions the leadership would have taken would be much worse. It is doubtful that the pastors would have even acknowledged their errors. Also, in all likelihood they would have just exerted church discipline on there 3 couples and maybe even Esther.
Thus even if this meeting didn’t go as well as we wanted, the SGC knowing that their actions are now more under a spotlight didn’t take nearly as egregious actions as they might have done if this wasn’t the case. Thanks to especially SGM Refuge for keeping this in the spotlight.
I know this is a sad commentary and really wished that I didn’t think what I am writing here wasn’t true.
January 26th, 2009 at 3:24 pm
I, too, heard Mr. Humility speak in Apex. I went specifically to hear him because I am a part of an evangelical Anglican church which appears a heckuva lot better than SGM. I just left a Baptist church where they are adopting a bunch of SGM weirdness.
Mahaney’s message was stupid. I can’t think of a better word. He claimed if you can identify the root problem of a conflict(control issues, affection, etc.) you can resolve the problem immediately!! You just say you are sorry in as brief a fashion as possible.And he kept stressing brief. That seems to be what happened last night at your meeting.
There are great churches out there. Leave this craziness. Also, read Charles Colson’s excellent book, The Faith. He defines so clearly what the true faith is all about. I bet they don’t have this available in SGM churches because anyone reading it would quickly see how off point SGM is. You don’t need to go liberal to be a heretic. Many weird, supposedly conservative churches and leaders are not Biblical as well.
Mahaney and others are playing church and are really trying to implement the abuses of the shepherding movement of the 1970s. You will spend a lifetime trying to get these guys to change. They won’t. They don’t intend to do so. They just want to get you off their backs. Don’t waste your years serving a bunch of control freaks who couldn’t make it in the outside world. They need a group of nice folks who are trying to be Biblical so they can manipulate things to serve their egos and not God.
I feel for you all.
January 26th, 2009 at 3:27 pm
Wow Dee-what do you really think?
Welcome! Well said.
January 26th, 2009 at 3:33 pm
What’s it,
I don’t get why they don’t think that they are going to answer to God some day for their “business tactics”. Don’t they believe that God is real? :/
January 26th, 2009 at 3:36 pm
I personally think that keeping the members in the dark only leads to confusion. Here is an example, this is a link to the sgmsurvivors page where a man writes in about a pastor that he respected. This pastor was removed from ministry (Denver church served with David B)…
http://www.sgmsurvivors.com/?p=76
I am only posting here because I truly believe that light MUst be shown on these issues. I firmly believe that as a member of a SGC I have a vested interest in knowing what is REAlly happening. For my familiess spiritual well being and safety. If the pastors are interpreting scripture wrong and giving bad consul.. I want to know about it. How can I trust that in the future I will be told about what my pastors are doing? I feel, if we continue to operate under this “on a need to know basis”, especially now after they get such a serious passage of scripture wrong, how can I trust that they will be able to correctly discern what I “need” to know? And how do these Chesapeake pastors justify not giving out the letter written by the three couples or Ester’s letter? It would serve the church members to have a complete understanding of all of the events. They are adults who can and do hear from the Lord. Let the Lord guide them through these messy waters.
January 26th, 2009 at 3:42 pm
Dee,
Wow, can’t get any clearer than this!!
“Mahaney and others are playing church and are really trying to implement the abuses of the shepherding movement of the 1970s. You will spend a lifetime trying to get these guys to change. They won’t. They don’t intend to do so. They just want to get you off their backs. Don’t waste your years serving a bunch of control freaks who couldn’t make it in the outside world. They need a group of nice folks who are trying to be Biblical so they can manipulate things to serve their egos and not God.”
btw: welcome!
January 26th, 2009 at 3:46 pm
Backing up the truck for a moment; The pastors at SGM intentionally invited children as young as ten to this corporate church meeting to discuss, among other things, spousal abuse and potentially something as grave as molestation and *then* they limit the length of the meeting to respect the children’s bedtomes.
Is there some sort of psychological or spiritual break from reality?
Yo, people, choose. They’re either too young and innocent to hear the details of abuse and your lack of just response and shouldn’t be there and therefore don’t need to have their bedtime respected *or* they’re old enough to have their ears warmed by the subject at hand and if they’re old enough for one they’re too old for a bedtime.
You can’t have it either way. Either way, you are cowards hiding behind children and their blankies. You were too yellow to face the legitimate questions of your congregation and resorted to using your children to deflect any potential pointed questions.
Brilliant ploy, very slick.
January 26th, 2009 at 3:48 pm
mom,
“I am only posting here because I truly believe that light MUst be shown on these issues. I firmly believe that as a member of a SGC I have a vested interest in knowing what is REAlly happening. For my familiess spiritual well being and safety”
Exactly!!
January 26th, 2009 at 3:51 pm
Carole:
See this from CJ’s comments regarding the Pastor’s Calendar:
“Jeff Purswell: And I think that is particularly a temptation for pastors, because a lot of those distractions you mentioned, C.J., will emerge from legitimate needs. And that’s precisely what happened in Acts 6:1–7, the first time you have the crystallization of specialized responsibilities for pastors. There were real, pressing, legitimate needs [related to feeding widows] that needed tending to. But the apostles recognized that it wasn’t their need to attend. They needed to raise up gifted leaders to tend to those things while they specialized in what they were called to do: attention to the Word of God and to prayer (v. 4).
And so I am sure a lot of pastors listening are aware of many legitimate needs. We call them distractions, but they are real, pressing needs. But that doesn’t mean they are the solution to those needs directly, or that those needs become immediate parts of their to-do list for the week.
CJM: Each pastor enters into each week aware that the requests made of him in a given week will exceed his capacity to respond and fulfill those requests. Therefore, if I haven’t in some way determined what is most important and uniquely important for me to do in a given week, I will find myself responding to these urgent, and often legitimate, requests and end up busy throughout the week, but not productive and not ultimately fruitful at the end of the week.
I think it is of critical importance for pastors in particular to enter their week aware of what is most important, what is uniquely important for them to do in order to most effectively, uniquely, specifically, and broadly serve those who have been entrusted to their care. This will inevitably involve some form of specialization, and must be informed by some awareness on the part of the pastor of his limitations.
So a lot depends on whether one is pastoring alone, or whether one has a pastoral team. But regardless of the size of the pastoral team or the size of one’s church, what we are saying applies to a pastor.
I guess he felt being at the Duke game and yukking it up at Apex was more “uniquely important” than being in Chesepeake.
This is also the guy the Ligon Duncan referred to on the T4G blog as having a “very deliberate life”. I am fully in support of being careful in your planning and schedule but when you have a full blown emergency as is the case in Chesepeake I think you can overextend yourself for one weekend.
January 26th, 2009 at 4:10 pm
Former wrote
Jeff Purswell: “But the apostles recognized that it wasn’t their need to attend. They needed to raise up gifted leaders to tend to those things . . .”
Talk about twisting Scripture! This is where is all goes haywire: If they would have read the next few verses they would have seen: “So, friends, choose seven men from among you whom everyone trusts, men full of the Holy Spirit and good sense.”
The people chose these men, not the Apostles. They, the Apostles, didn’t “raise up” gifted leaders, in the sense that they watched them and had meetings to discuss their giftings, they let it up to the people to choose, and that was that.
I know this wasn’t the point of Former’s comments, but I just had to say it.
January 26th, 2009 at 4:18 pm
Hey,
Excellent point! The PEOPLE chose the men who were to help ( I guess you could call them the first Elders). This part of the verse is sooooo overlooked by controlling churches.
January 26th, 2009 at 4:19 pm
“Brilliant ploy, very slick.”
DB,
they’re always “thinking ahead”, I guess…
I wonder what they think God thinks about their strategizing. :/
January 26th, 2009 at 4:20 pm
Hey:
Your point is good one. It goes back to other posts on this blog underscoring the fact that the central problem with SGM is its polity. Until that is changed, nothing unfortunately will ever really change and Gene Emerson’s comment about changing the structure would be like changing the Bible means that that any changes to SGM polity will occur at less than glacial speed.
January 26th, 2009 at 4:23 pm
Steve240 said:
“One thing I would add here is that had SGC not been under watchful eyes, like with this blog, the actions the leadership would have taken would be much worse.”
I have never been associated with a Sovereign Grace Church, but through some very unusual circumstances, I have been brought into the fray to provide one of those sets of “watchful eyes”. And believe me, I am watching!!!
I suspect that those who are members of SGM churches are kind and compassionate Christians who are very sincere about their faith. They are my brothers and sisters in Christ! My heart goes out to them because I fear they are being manipulated by the SGM “system”. Some of them realize this and have come out of Sovereign Grace Ministries, while others are totally devoted to their church and the apostolic leadership. I’m praying for all of these individuals because I have a deep affection for them. May discernment come soon!!!
January 26th, 2009 at 4:25 pm
I wonder if anyone would like to discuss the obvious.
1) there is no precedent in scripture for removing a leader for anything other than teaching heresy or unrepentant sin. That does not mean that it was never done for other reasons; I’m just saying you cannot argue out of silence. In any case, it it hard to imagine Paul setting a leader in place and then changing his mind later and saying the leader he chose was not gifted. What does the use of this tactic say about the discernment of and authority of SGM apostles?
2) all of the epistles were letters to the churches and intended for public use. Most were read publicly. They included advice on disputes and failures of both individuals as well as groups. The premise is that a problem with one believer affects the whole body, and that addressing it openly serves as a lesson to the whole body.
3) modern obsession with privacy in the church matters (i.e. doctrine, decision making, and even personal rebukes) is not consistent with the Jewish synagogue tradition of public debate.
Your Thoughts?
January 26th, 2009 at 4:27 pm
“This will inevitably involve some form of specialization, and must be informed by some awareness on the part of the pastor of his limitations.”
What does this mean? (Or did he just use one too many big words for me?)
January 26th, 2009 at 4:29 pm
Canary said:
“Steve240 and I have asked that question several times. We still scratch our heads, right Steve240? Can someone who is still in SG answer this question? It is an anomaly that sticks out like a troll’s head from under a bridge.”
We certainly have asked that with no answer. The errors of the pastors are quite specific and egregious compared to the vagueness as to why the other pastors were “asked” to step down., It certainly makes no sense.
My guess is that as long as they are “yes men” as Greg indicates, these SGC pastors are secure in their jobs.
January 26th, 2009 at 4:35 pm
You guys are just too much…
I love your flexibility though.
Especially on the CJ issue.
Everyone was yelping about him coming down like “the pope” to fix it,
finding lots to criticize and accuse him of.
Then, when he didn’t, you easily switch sides and find fault for that.
“he doesn’t care…blah blah blah…”
Bravo!
Most people would be far too embarrassed to follow through,
especially with all their words in print.
I like your style, refugees!
January 26th, 2009 at 4:35 pm
Stein
I have heard that statement “There is not a perfect church” way too many times. It is an excuse for despicable behavior. You see, there is no perfect church and that is why the Bible has many warnings about what to watch for. That is why we are sent the Holy Spirit. That is why the Bible talks about the priesthood of the believers.
And as for our sin nature, pastors are no less or more sinners than the rest of their people. I have been in some great churches and watched how well they dealt with their imperfections. Martin Luther said wisely, “Go and sin boldly.” Why? Because we are all sinners and we want to cover it up and put on a front and make ourselves look like perfect Christians. Well, we are not and we are in the process of sanctification. including the “Great, Bald One.” You need to read his history. There are some problematic things in his past and he is applying them to all of your churches once again. There is nothing that stinks so much as reheated, abusive church leaders.He hasn’t learned and that is very, very dangerous.
A former pastor of mine, Pete Briscoe-Jill and Stewart’s son,and pastor of Bent Tree Bible Fellowship, modeled for me how to respond when one makes an error.My husband and I talked with him about something he had done that we felt could hurt the church. It was not a moral issue. Well, at first, he wasn’t thrilled with our message. He’s human. However, over the course of a week, he came around. He called a meeting of involved parties and quickly resolved an issue that coud have been explosive.He humbly told us that we had helped save the ministry. Yes, us, just regular church members. I would follow Pete to the ends of the earth because he demonstrated how to be a true servant/leader. Such a leader knows how to react even if he is uncomfortable, hurt,embarrassed or angry.
I have also seen this happen in other “imperfect” churches. What differentiates SGM from this is rather obvious. Humility, being quick to change and rectify, and love for those who come to a pastor with their pain, suggestions and criticisms are hallmarks of true leadership. You do not have this if what I am reading on this blog is correct. I just left a church going in your direction and I know the difference.
I truly grieve for all of you who have never seen such a church in action. I also hope that all of you will find a church that will truly love and serve you so that you can love and serve others. Please try to find one.
January 26th, 2009 at 4:36 pm
Ellie:
I think what he means by specialization is that for pastors who are on a team there will be a division of labor where some pastors are responsible for youth ministry, some for family ministry, some for evangelism or worship. No one pastor can do it all. But for the man who is ostensibly responsible for it all, I think he could find the time to show up for a meeting who subject matter had the potential to cause a split.
January 26th, 2009 at 4:36 pm
DB said-
“You can’t have it either way. Either way, you are cowards hiding behind children and their blankies. You were too yellow to face the legitimate questions of your congregation and resorted to using your children to deflect any potential pointed questions.
Brilliant ploy, very slick.”
YES!
January 26th, 2009 at 4:43 pm
I WAS THERE:
1. One shocker: Gene stated that this is a very rare site, “Pastors standing up and asking for forgiveness.” WHY IS THIS RARE? Shouldn’t his be the norm?
2. We heard a whole lot of promises (thank you STEINMEISTERBREW) However, absolutely nothing was said about how the church plans to overse the institution of those plans. Same old-same old!
…and by the way: Gene, your request for silence reeks of Communist Russia; Is this Russia? This isn’t Russia! Perhaps if you lose your position, there might be one with a renewed KGB under Vladimir Putin!
I am still torn. I love the relationships and count them as dear, and my wife would like to stick it out! I stiil feel, though, that much is still hidden and breaking apart around us.
January 26th, 2009 at 4:48 pm
The whole “hiding behind children” thing is such a red herring.
They have always included them in every family meeting.
And, AGAIN, they announced that they would take any and all questions as long as it would take, and encouraged everyone to stay and have them all resolved.
The meeting started at 6:00 and many stayed past 10:00.
I am sorry for you all that there weren’t any fireworks.
But, I guess it is pretty hard to attack someone to their face, right after they confessed to sinning against you and asking for forgiveness, isn’t it?
January 26th, 2009 at 4:53 pm
Long Sufferer said:
“1. One shocker: Gene stated that this is a very rare site, “Pastors standing up and asking for forgiveness.” WHY IS THIS RARE? Shouldn’t his be the norm?”
Such a good point. Again, the “imperfect pastors” as they and SGM loyalists call them, are quite reluctant to admit their imperfections.
Standing up and asking forgiveness should be a norm. Also, as has bee pointed out, these pastors seemed to only do this due to the pressure they were under, especially from the 3 couples. I am sure these pastors would have been more content with hiding their sins vs. confessing and forsaking them.
January 26th, 2009 at 4:55 pm
Long Sufferer,
We understand your conflict. We REALLY understand!
January 26th, 2009 at 4:56 pm
What’s it all about?
January 26th, 2009 at 3:19 pm
wrote –
Beloved,
If this is true about Dave Bendinelli and his staff (and I’m assuming from your comment that it is), then:
1. Why isn’t he immediately removed.
2. Why isn’t he put under church discipline and forced to go through that process.
3. Why isn’t he forced to tell the entire church, item by item, what the sins are that he is being removed for.
4. Why don’t they have a meeting and allow for public questions.
5. Why doesn’t Steve Shank come in, tell the TRUTH and spend the time necessary to resolve any and all unresolved questions and issues?
–
Because it would have opened yet another great SGM Pandora’s Box.
Partly because if they spelled out what Bendinelli and the others pastors, and some care group leaders and wives were doing had done, then people (at least outsiders who were not on the Kool-Aid) would know that Steve and Janis Shank needed to be removed, too.
And there’s a good chance CJ knew about it all, too, or at least enough. That means that people would know that CJ needed to be removed, too.
Some was just typical SGM garbage, in which Bendinelli and the others were, quite simply, well-trained by SGM to do. So SGM upper leadership would have supported what was happening.
There are some posts about the North Denver church and David Bendinelli and Steve and Janis Shank is over at:
http://www.sgmsurvivors.com/?p=76
Quite honestly, I think the pastors and care group leaders and cgl’s wives knew better than to try to tackle anything about the Shanks, for their own safety.
Some of what happened in the North Denver church, and which David Bendinelli was the worst pastor involved, was very, very similar to Esther’s story:
http://sgmrefuge.com/2009/01/1.....hesapeake/
Put everything together, and you have another great SGM Pandora’s Box at yet another SGM church — all of which has been kept under wraps, undealt with, unresolved, for years.
Of course, the pastors have their side of the story. From my experience and in my opinion, that story doesn’t hold up, and is inexcusable.
January 26th, 2009 at 4:59 pm
Welcome back, Billy.
I’m really glad I asked everyone here to treat you as a guest, because you’re such a good one.
Are you really going to come on here and throw flames every day?
SGM did EXACTLY what I told everyone they would do.
No surprises, no disappointment over the lack of fireworks-just an affirmation of what I already knew.
January 26th, 2009 at 5:04 pm
Ellie,
Thanks for your comment (11:50 a.m.) quoting a poster’s response to the bad report document used by Gene. I appreciated how he (the poster) demonstrated, using Scripture, the lack of balance that can happen with this approach. Even Paul and the gospel writers would fail to live up to this teaching? Somethings not right here.
How about this one? Luke 12:1-3 “… Be on your guard against the yeast of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy. There is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, or hidden that will not be made known. What you have said in the dark will be heard in the day light and what you have whispered in the ear in the inner rooms will be proclaimed from the roofs.” Those are red-letter words! My Bible notes say that the context here means that nothing said out of hypocrisy will remain hidden. Wouldn’t that be spreading a bad report as well? Maybe I’m being too simplistic…
Welcome to all of you new folks! Wish it was under better circumstances, but nonetheless, welcome! I’m sorry for your current situation. You continue to be in our prayers.
Welcome to you, Claireon. Nice to have you over here!
January 26th, 2009 at 5:10 pm
Why is my opinion of the pastors hiding behind children a red herring?
If children are old enough to discuss spousal abuse and other subjects of a potentially sexual or violent (pg 13 or R rated if they were turned into movies,) then why the load of feces about respecting their bedtimes.
January 26th, 2009 at 5:13 pm
Gracie,
Excellent verse! I am constantly amazed at how legalism tried Paul’s patience to its limits. I was reading in Philippians the other day, and there it was again. Paul was speaking about the legalists, calling them dogs (actually, being a dog lover myself, I’d rather him call them weasels…hee-hee). I believe that to be accused of being a dog, to a Jewish person, was a very offensive thing. Paul was so, so vehement about protecting the gospel from the yeast of the Pharisees. We should be, too. Hugs, Gracie! You have a sweet heart to welcome the newcomers. There are some hurting people out there, I bet, after what has happened.
January 26th, 2009 at 5:33 pm
No, Jim, That’s just it.
SGM did not do what you said, and you won’t give them any room to change.
you said “Chesapeake can expect a visit from a bigger dog very soon. Watch and see, folks…” (you speculated it would be Dave Harvey)
wrong
“3) CJ will seal the deal in Chesapeake, but families will leave.”
half-wrong. CJ did not come at all. families are leaving though.
“we will see no real reform”
(this one is easier since you get to decide what real reform is, you can just change the definition to make sure they can’t succeed)
They did not refute the charges
They owned up to their shortcomings
asked us to forgive them
discussed SPECIFIC changes that will START the process of change
(i.e. what you call “active repentance”)
asked for continuing feedback on these issues
did not malign the 3 couples
THANKED the couples AGAIN
And, then you (Jim:)
accuse BY of SPINNING what happened.
call them cowards “hiding behind children”
Jim, several times you told me “a thinking person knows the difference between a blog host and its commenters”
Its true, Jim.
Also, I hope that thinking people can see when the blog host won’t admit he missed it on some stuff, and encourage his readers to have the grace and poise to allow time to see this repentance walked out.
Instead, you jump all over it, and try to invalidate it all. And, encourage your commenters to do the same.
Jim and everyone:
Do you have the honesty before the readers to admit where you missed it?
Are you willing to see how they walk this out before you continue sniping them?
I have a couple of predictions of my own, Jim.
No and No
Why don’t you prove me wrong and see if I admit that I missed it…
January 26th, 2009 at 5:49 pm
Good points Billy,
Though I am not in the position to judge whether what was done in the meeting was all that needed to be done, and it will never satisfy everybody, from my perspective it was more responsive than I have seen from SGM in a long time. Jim, I don’t think Billy is flaming and deserves credit for a valid opinion, If there was any failure, then maybe it was on the part of the congregation to ask hard questions.
January 26th, 2009 at 5:50 pm
RE getting Mahaney to stretch himself: I agree with those who say there’s no way you’ll get him to do anything he doesn’t really want to do (i.e., anything he doesn’t really enjoy doing). There’s no reason for him to appear at any SGM gathering in which he won’t be the center of attention and final authority.
Mahaney trained his pastors in the 80s to be total control freaks regarding their schedules – they fully embraced the DayTimer/Covey/”Tyranny of the Urgent” strategy of blocking-out time for specific goals, and never letting anything intrude on previously committed time. You’ll never find one of the first-gen SGM leaders doing anything spontaneous, or doing anything that doesn’t support their already-determined goals and priorities.
January 26th, 2009 at 5:54 pm
I did have one critique of the meeting, however.
I have heard so much about the famous SGM Kool-Aid,
but all they served was lousy bottled water!
What a rip off!
Next time, I’m going to bring my own.
Lesson learned.
(maybe Eric drank it all?)
January 26th, 2009 at 5:55 pm
Billy,
You are correct. I was wrong. A “bigger dog” did not come in to town.
More to come…
January 26th, 2009 at 5:55 pm
I don’t have time to read all of the comments here and have gotten to the point of having a low tolerance for anything that swings SGM. If I had my druthers, I would wash the memory of that institution out of my mind altogether. I wish I could.
However, I will say this: What has been uncovered here is just the tip of the iceberg. They’re only admitting to foul play because they can no longer hide behind their intimidation tactics that have forced people to remain silent all these years.
But I was part of the Chesapeake church for seven years and first experienced SGM’s darker side there. They place no value on the protection of women and children and have used the Bible as a weapon to perpetuate their misogynist agenda. They have told woman after woman after woman to stay in abusive situations and take abusive men back into their homes. And this is pandemic; I’ve seen this pattern across three different SGM churches and have heard the same thing from friends from other SGM churches. And because they also place no value on REAL counseling — not just the home-grown variety they get for a few weeks at the Pastors’ College — there is little hope for real change.
And I hate to be accused of not believing the best (well, actually I really don’t care what I’m accused of at this point), but this is really just a political move with damage control in mind. That’s why CJ wasn’t there. I’m sure Ken Sande has given the leadership team legal counsel to avoid putting themselves in a position where he could inadvertantly admit to culpability. And why? Because some of their “oversights” and missteps have been criminal. They have known of abuse far worse than the cases mentioned here — including egregious cases of child abuse — and they have, again and again, protected the guilty parties from criminal charges.
It must be hard to know that, as the leader of Sovereign Grace Ministries, CJ can’t MAN UP and do the right thing because of the potential reparations they might have to make. Sure, you’re a man when it comes to “divine clickery” and can browbeat weak-minded men into becoming your clones. BUT take responsibility for the reckless methodologies this ministry has adopted under YOUR direction? Your spineless spirit withers under that kind of pressure that only a REAL MAN could bear up under. Janet Reno showed more pluck than you. The buck stops with you, CJ. It’s time you stopped passing it because this dog and pony show counterfeit is just pathetic.
God, have mercy.
~Cas
PS I’m sorry, Kris, if this response comes across too strongly, and I will understand if you feel it needs to be removed for the greater good of the site. You know I trust your wisdom and discretion on this call implicitly, friend. I’m just SICK of the pattern of politicking from someone who set himself up as a man’s man who was to be emulated and followed without question. It’s disingenuous and cowardly and does not honor God, in my opinion. And the longer he dodges responsibility like this, the stronger the tide of criticism will grow. I can’t believe he doesn’t see the handwriting on the wall.
January 26th, 2009 at 5:55 pm
Wow, can we please take another look at what CJ and Jeff were saying?
So, on Monday or Tuesday or whatever day is the first of the week for them, a pastor comes into his office. He lays out everything he needs to get done for the week.
Then he prioritizes them.
Then, he makes sure that he doesn’t bother with the widows or orphans, since he has a higher call to study the word and pray.
Uh-huh.
Two comments:
1. I am going to Starbuck’s more, there must be a lot of prayer and study going on there.
2. This explains why none of the pastors wanted to get involved in Esther’s messy situation. S.E.P. Alright, then, perhaps. But there was nothing in place to deal with her situation!
Good heavens.
January 26th, 2009 at 5:59 pm
Bravo Billy, Bravo…
January 26th, 2009 at 6:02 pm
Dang Billy… where else was I wrong?
I liked what DB said about hiding behind the kids, as I do feel that an open mic discussion would have been more…. open. I quoted her and responded with “YES!”
For whoever it was to state “that this would not be an open forum so the children’s bedtimes could be respected”, looks like a cop out to me. When does SGM do open forum?
January 26th, 2009 at 6:03 pm
Dear Cas–
I don’t think Kris will do diddly to your comments. Maybe Guy or Carole…
Your post was great, but a little foggy. I didn’t really get your point!
(sarcasm intended)
Thanks for saying what needs to be said.
Where are the men who will stand for the widows and fatherless among them? Stop talking about football all the time, and get in the game!
January 26th, 2009 at 6:07 pm
Cute kool-aid remark.
However, the kool-aid served all these years made it simple not to see anyone’s persepective last night but the leaders. I’ve been one of the members participating in the “standing ovation” during a family meeting, where others sat without clapping, having been essentially shunned from the PDI church I attended. We were forbidden from talking with this group of people. They were forced out because they had questions that the leaders didn’t want to deal with, and didn’t buy the party line. Uniformity was the leaders goal. And we all fell in line with them.
I will forever be ashamed of being an accomplice to shunning those good folks. I was drunk on kool-aid, and didn’t know it. It will only be a matter of time until Esther and the three couples experience the same sort of shunning. Just a matter of time…what will you say then, Billy and others?
January 26th, 2009 at 6:07 pm
On any given weekday late-morning or early-afternoon – unless he’s recently changed his daily routine – CJ Mahaney can be found at one of several Starbucks in Gaithersburg or Montgomery Village, MD, having a latte and reading the USA Today sports section. That’s obviously a priority for him.
It would be interesting if someone were to rock his little, hermetically sealed world, by slipping into the booth one day and asking some pointed questions about SGM history and policy.
Or maybe, one day, serve him a summons to a grand-jury investigation? One can dream….
January 26th, 2009 at 6:14 pm
Billy,
What I was referring to when I said: “SGM did EXACTLY what I told everyone they would do.” , was this post.
“Travis-
Good point. Unfortunately, since power corrupts, those in power have often had accountability forced upon them. Think of the freedom of information act and corporate stock holder statements.
The blogs, to some extent, are having the same effect.
In “What to Expect…” I stated the following:
6) Expect to see a new humility from your pastors. If confronted, they will no longer turn the tables on you, but will actually listen. It is crucial that we understand this. They will listen, appear very humble, but will change nothing. They sit in the seat of Moses, and you don’t. Humility and leadership in SGM are antithetical. A well practiced humble demeanor does not equal humility. I hate to break it to you, but the guy trying to sell you a car doesn’t really want to be your best friend.
When you confront your newandimprovedmorehumblethanever pastor, ask him for a response. If there is verbal repentance, ask him what active repentance looks like. Ask him to define repentance. How is one saved-faith and repentance. What does repentance mean in the context of salvation? Does it have a different meaning in interpersonal relationships?
Watch for signs of active repentance.
One more prediction…
You won’t see it.
I’m already hearing reports of newandimprovedmorehumblethanever pastors.
A humble man repents when he sins. A man who repents after being caught/busted/exposed just might be a different animal…”
In other words, I expected the pastors to eat some crow. I expected CJ to seal the deal. It appears that Gene and Keith were able to do that on their own. I expected people to leave, which appears to be happening.
January 26th, 2009 at 6:22 pm
Cas-wrong blog…Kris isn’t here
January 26th, 2009 at 6:29 pm
SGMCas,
It is still good to see you posting here. I remember some of your story from the past. You have reason to speak with passion. Thanks!
January 26th, 2009 at 6:31 pm
“Cas-wrong blog…Kris isn’t here ”
Yeah, but we’re readers here
January 26th, 2009 at 6:35 pm
I will admit that I was wrong about the fact that there might be church discipline last night. There is too much publicity over this for the leaders to take that very serious step. Everything else was expected. The handing out of literature on spreading evil reports is a familiar move. More damage control. Wish the sheeple had been allowed to speak and ask questions in the meeting. There is strength in numbers. It is much harder to challenge a leader one on one. But then, they know that. Ho-hum.
January 26th, 2009 at 6:37 pm
Reformed Teacher,
You’re right. I’ll try to be less ambiguous next time. lol
I used to post here a lot and was much more gracious (most days). But now I’m very angry. I’ve kept my finger on the pulse somewhat but had to take a step back because I was just thinking about these people too much.
But I was in care group with one of the couples involved in this fiasco, and it saddens me to see how many families have been trampled underfoot by the SGM agenda.
~Cas
January 26th, 2009 at 6:40 pm
LOL – That’s funny. Someone sent me a link here, and I just assumed this was Kris’s blog. Another SGM blog? That’s awesome!
~Cas
January 26th, 2009 at 6:42 pm
Hi Canary,
I remember you too! Good to see you here.
I don’t think I’ve ever been accused of a lack of passion, come to think of it. heh
~Cas
January 26th, 2009 at 6:50 pm
Billy,
I, not Jim called them cowards hiding behind children and I stand by my words.
I don’t get why you are deflecting this to Jim, unless you’re too high and mighty to discuss the issues at hand with a mere woman. Trust me, Billy, I can stand up for myself.
My point boiled down is that what should have been discussed last night was PG13 or R rated. It was compelling and begged a comprehensive and thorough discussion with all concerned parties. I am generally someone that is inclusive of children but they shouldn’t have been involved in this particular meeting because of the very adult nature of its content.
If a child is young enough to have a bedtime that needs to be, “Respected,” then he or she is too young to be in a serious discussion about some twisted behavior on the part of adult church members.
The only reason I can think of openly inviting youngsters as young as ten years old is to hinder a thorough address of the issues at hand. OK, I thought of a second motive; to keep the duration of the meeting manageably short. (rather self-serving, I would say, as I said before, good strategery.)
January 26th, 2009 at 6:53 pm
Cas-I’ve seen you on survivors, and I’m very glad you’re here.
I’m doing 5 things at once, and was just kidding before.
Passion for truth is a good thing.
January 26th, 2009 at 6:53 pm
There is no hope for true change in SGM until CJ is gone. None.
Anything else but CJ entirely stepping down and a public statement made about his harsh and abusive misuse of authority, and legalism, is just whitewash or a temporary fix.
When a minister commits serious sin in good denominations, say adultery, there is generally a significant period of time during which he undergoes CCEF type biblical counseling to get at the root, and even then he is often not allowed to return to ministry for maybe three years or longer, and the return comes with strong accountability in place.
The list on CJ is so long and so bad that unless he is removed the leaven will continue to infect all the SGM churches. Even if he appears to repent, he needs to step down.
January 26th, 2009 at 6:54 pm
Cas,
Passion is a good thing when it comes to the Gospel of Jesus, or the mistreatment of His children. How passionate was Paul when he wished that the legalists should “go all the way and emasculate themselves” because they were insisting on the Gentiles being circumcized. I am horrified and laughing at the same time when I read this in the Bible! Now that is passion!
January 26th, 2009 at 6:57 pm
5 years-welcome!
CJ would have to take his buddies, his relatives, and his buddies’ relatives with him.
He’s done a great job in ensuring that his “legacy” lives on….
January 26th, 2009 at 7:02 pm
Canary, you said:
“Wish the sheeple had been allowed to speak and ask questions in the meeting. There is strength in numbers. It is much harder to challenge a leader one on one. But then, they know that. Ho-hum.”
That is so true. I’ve seen it. Sometimes it is can be very intimidating to raise a question one to one. I think when the entire group gets to ask questions, someone may bring up a point that gives you insight.
January 26th, 2009 at 7:03 pm
Okay, lots has been said here. I have to run, but I wanted to say a couple of things first. I, too, highly respect Brian Wasko and believe him to be a godly man and that he was a great youth pastor. I was looking forward to the day our children were old enough to be in his youth group, but we left before that happened. He, however, was not one of the reasons we left. I think whoever brought up his name may be onto something. He could bring clarity to the pastoral staff on all this if given the opportunity, I should think…
To Stein, BY, and Long Sufferer, forgive me for naming names, but there are certain people at the church who just broke the mold. People like the Sotos. They attended SG Chesapeake, yet never were affected in the least by any of the nonsense. It’s as if they said, “No thanks. I don’t drink Koolaid.” and just kept worshipping alongside everyone else and loving and serving within the body God had called them to until they left to attend KPC. If you, Stein, are like the Soto family, we have no way of knowing that. If you are, you live outside the nonsense and are unaffected by it. So you may not see a need for this blog at all. Also, and this is VERY important. If God has called you to remain, you have to do that. It’s what He requires of you and He’ll give you the “grace” to (real grace).
As for Barbaric, I want to encourage you to read the words in red, too. If you genuinely believe there is no stretching of scripture to fit pet doctrines within SGM, that’s fine. Stay. But I know you are an intelligent, well-educated man. I believe you’ve been in the dark about a lot that’s gone on for many years and this is all so new to you that you’re still in the denial stage. Once that wears off, though, please seriously consider what you’ve aligned yourself to. I know others who have stayed and I love them just the same as those who left and I would love and support you, too, no matter what. But I disagree with CJ’s theology. It is remarkably similar to that of Maranatha Ministries from back in the 1970s. We can agree to disagree and love each other anyway. But what I’m asking you to do is overlook the sarcasm you read here (because although everything you’re reading is absolutely true, there is sometimes an edge since it’s based in pain) and read the logical remarks that are also here (hopefully mine) and assess them. Do they ring true? Are they biblical? Has your church polity been incorrect all this time? If so, what can and will you do to help change that? And read the couples’ letter carefully. Does what they have said make sense? Does it ring true? Is it biblical? And also, does it make sense to print out copies of an article on “passing along bad reports” during a serious family meeting about righting wrongs within the church and restoring mercy ministries to the needy? What does passing out that article say about the pastors’ repentance? What doesn’t it say? What didn’t they say? What was missing from their speech? I wasn’t there, so these things aren’t clear to me, but I am puzzled about why my friends weren’t given an opportunity to speak.
Many are simply leaving. I know you’re very plugged in and don’t want to do that. So please, rather than say “these people won’t listen, don’t waste your breath, Stein” or whatever the comment was, try listening to US, the ones who have the benefit of being gone for some time. We have seen our children grow up in freedom and still walk with the Lord. They’re experiencing close relationships with their God while many of their former friends are growing depressed over their own sinfulness. I could show you blog entries by the daughter of a friend of ours who is still in the church. Email me privately. You’ll see how desperately depraved these young girls think they are and I hope you’ll weep over it. They need to know the victory over sin and the joy that God gives just because He loves them and for no other reason than that. Sometimes He does that. He just loves us for no reason. I guess that’s why He sent His son in the first place. Once the blinders come off and you realize what you’ve been sitting under and then read the teenaged girls’ blogs, it stabs you to the heart. I don’t want anyone with daughters to stay under this errant teaching. It’s so important.
I didn’t mean to say all this only to BY. Just got carried away. Now I really am going to be late to an appointment. I’m still praying for all of you. Please remember what Doug and Monica said. There are LARGE systemic problems in these churches. Get out or expect to fight a long fight for your church. Seek God about which He has called you to. God bless!
January 26th, 2009 at 7:09 pm
Casualty, do we know each other? I was in Care Group with them, too… Maybe not. It’s been a long time. You can email me at creativepowerhouse@gmail.com .
January 26th, 2009 at 7:36 pm
I thought this article seemed fitting:
http://www.batteredsheep.com/pdf/think02.pdf
January 26th, 2009 at 7:43 pm
claireon,
I like this section:
January 26th, 2009 at 7:56 pm
Hi Freedom Fighter,
I know exactly who you are. I’ll email you.
~Cas
January 26th, 2009 at 8:02 pm
Hi, folks.
Great commentary and analysis, folks.
I know this page is about Chesapeake, but I would please like people to not gloss over and forget my post on
January 26th, 2009 at 3:19 pm
It lists some very serious things from the North Denver SGM church — very similar to Esther’s story.
There have been some things about this church in current SGMSurv/SGMRefuge news.
Thanks, everyone.
January 26th, 2009 at 8:05 pm
PS Hi, Claireon! Good to see your name pop up! I miss your incisive commentary.
January 26th, 2009 at 8:07 pm
Oops. It was at January 26th, 2009 at 4:56 pm
Thanks.
Please, everyone, everything was tried to take care of things in that North Denver church. More and more people in leadership and on pastoral staff were implicated in terrible UNTHINKABLE acts of omission and commission in very bad circumstances.
Matthew 18 over and over and over with more and more people.
I’m VERY surprised there was not loss of at least one person’s life there. Literally. Absolutely literally.
Thanks.
January 26th, 2009 at 8:11 pm
Beloved of God,
What would you like to see happen there that hasn’t already happened?
January 26th, 2009 at 8:11 pm
To detractors who would be inclined to poo-pooh motives, I don’t see what else I could do. Due to Matthew 18, I’m now telling it to the Church.
Thanks.
January 26th, 2009 at 8:19 pm
Beloved, could you please email me privately? justadogluvr@aol.com
I’d like to talk about Denver.
thanks.
January 26th, 2009 at 8:31 pm
mom wrote
January 26th, 2009 at 8:11 pm
Beloved of God,
What would you like to see happen there that hasn’t already happened?
–
Well, I would like to see the Spirit of God actually around until that church closes. They publicly CLAIM to preach the good news of Jesus Christ. They publicly CLAIM to walk in integrity and biblical ways. But I don’t think the Spirit of God will touch that church. Not with what He knows has gone on/goes on there. But don’t take MY word for it — You can ask the Lord about that! You can ask the Lord what He has seen there (and in all SGM)!
I would like to see honest-to-goodness real repentance in the pastors, care group leaders and wives involved, and to see them step down/be removed and for everyone in that church to get in good churches where they can learn and live GRACE, MERCY, and biblical TRUTH, and how a Family of God really works.
I wouldm quite honestly, like to see that church shut down. — Even if SGM repented from the top down, which would be great, you don’t pour new wine into old wineskins, and that place has been a bastion of darkness, abuse, standard SGM junk, and “another gospel”s.
I would like to see the Shanks, the pastors and care group leaders and wives involved, CJ, the AT, former AT, LT, etc. take responsibility for what they did and didn’t do. Honest to goodness open responsibility, like they publicly CLAIM to do.
I would like to see those same people come on bended knee TO ALL THOSE THEY HURT and GENUINELY repent before and offer to do restitution. At the least, they can seek God and see and do every single thing that would help the hurt, wounded, kicked, stabbed that they so skillfully abused.
I would like them to stop preaching so many “another gospels” — not only because the people of God and seekers are destroyed by those, but also because their very souls are in danger–
But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned! Galatians 1:8-9
I would like David Bendinelli (and all the others in past and current leadership in that place) to stop acting like everything is cool when he meets those who left with unresolved grievances and observations like what have been on SGMSurv and this site, to stop just chatting like nothing happened, and DEAL with what these people brought to him — honestly, prayerfully, and in the presence of God.
But I don’t think any of this will really happen until you remove the cornerstone of SGM, CJ.
Please notice I don’t call the Lord Jesus the Cornerstone of SGM.
Thanks for listening!
January 26th, 2009 at 8:53 pm
Dear Beloved of God,
Thank you for repeating your concerns for the Denver church. In the rush of the many posts, sometimes important things can get overlooked. The folks in the Denver church are on the radar now for more prayer! Grace to you!
January 26th, 2009 at 9:03 pm
INC – the section you quoted from the article I posted the link to was my favorite part, too!
SGM Casualty ~ Lady, its so good to see you. Hugs!
January 26th, 2009 at 9:09 pm
Canary said,
“My ex-pastor decided that folks were putting too much enfisis on their clothing on Sunday mornings. I guess he felt that some of us were vain by dressing up. Don’t know exactly. For me, it was the only day of the week in which to wear something prettier than sweats! Anyway, the Pastor started showing up in casual clothing and, wouldn’t you know, the whole congregation began doing the same thing.”
Canary, would that be our pastor friend in Charlotte?
(Btw…hey all you refuge peeps! I’m mostly just reading and praying these days. Blessings to you all.)
January 26th, 2009 at 9:36 pm
Dear Beloved of God,
It sounds like what happened there is, obviously, horrible. Of course most of us don’t know all that happened, but we will join with you in prayer.
As you go forward to the church I’ll be praying that the Lord will use you to bring forth change. That lives will be restored and that the Lord would be glorified by what you say and all that you reveal. I also pray that the Lord would go before you and prepare the way. If this is not the Lord’s will, then I pray that He would show you this is ways that are very clear.
January 26th, 2009 at 9:54 pm
Beloved of God,
I certainly will be praying for you and the Denver church. I pray that God will give you strength and wisdom as you seek to follow Him!
January 26th, 2009 at 9:59 pm
Thanks, mom.
Yes, it was horrible beyond belief, and it went on and on and on for years, since the beginning of that church actually. It just got worse over the years.
What I would really, really like — ultimately — is for all those people, including pastors and cgl’s and cgl’s wives and all the members, is to be set free. Free indeed!!!
I don’t want my Savior’s suffering and blood to have been sacrificed in vain.
I also want SGM everywhere to be shut down. Off the map. Without any influence or POWER.
Here’s why — you don’t pour new wine into old wineskins.
But really, it’s what the Lord wants to do that counts….
I also want the North Denver church pastors and former pastors and cgl’s and cgl’s wives to go public with what they did to God’s people on the sly.
I want the upper management of SGM to do the same.
But all these people have to SEE what they did before they can REPENT and COME CLEAN before God and man.
And that will take lots of people praying and fasting, and it will take literal miracles.
Only the Lord can set people free from the sort of spiritual blindness and oppression as SGM has LOVED to deal in.
Thanks.
January 26th, 2009 at 10:03 pm
Thanks, Bethany and everyone who replies. Your prayers keep me alive, quite literally.
January 26th, 2009 at 10:03 pm
Billy, Stein, & Others,
Look, I’ve got no bone in this particular situation… I’m not in SGM, nor a past member. You all seem to be missing something important here.
Say I have a son. My son goes outside in our backyard to play baseball with his buddies. They’ve decided to play “homerun derby” and hit balls over the neighbor’s fence. My son steps up to the plate… here comes the pitch… its a long fly ball, deep into ”center field”…
Its going…
Going…
Going.. Right into the the neighbor’s window. The window shatters.
Now, my son ought to go to the neighbor and say he’s sorry and tell them he made a mistake choosing to play Homerun Derby by hitting balls into their backyard. But is that enough? No. Damage has resulted to the neighbor’s property. Restitution must be made as part of the process of repentance.
As I read “Esther’s Story” and others like it here and over at Survivors, it strikes me that saying “sorry” just is *not good enough*. Instead of causing a broken window, SGM Pastors have caused broken hearts… and worse. A broken window can be replaced quickly, but woe, it is not the case ever for the human soul. The lives of Esther and so many others must be painstakingly pieced back together.
You see, my friends, Its *not good enough* to increase benevolence next year when people needed your help last year. Its *not good enough* to form a women’s counseling team now when it wasn’t in place for Esther. Its *not good enough* to ensure quicker response times in the future when your response time in the past ensured that physical and emotional harm would continue. While these are all appropriate changes to make for the future, they do *nothing* to correct the wrong that has been done.
There may be many reasons why the leadership of SGM chose the path they did in the handling of Esther’s case – including lack of wisdom and foresight – but at this point, do the reasons really matter? No. In the case of the broken window, what *really matters* is that the window gets repaired first. Its fine to talk about using a wiffle ball next time, or playing in a park. But first, you must repair the damage that has already been done. I’m hearing much talk about “the future” from your accounts of the meeting with SGM, but I’m not hearing any talk about repairing the damage that has already occurred.
The leaders of SGM would do well to re-read and meditate on the story of Zacchaeus in Luke Chapter 19, especially verse 8:
“Then Zacchaeus stood and said to the Lord, ‘Look, Lord, I give half of my goods to the poor; and if I have taken anything from anyone by false accusation, I restore fourfold.’”
Peace be with you all.
Christopher
January 26th, 2009 at 10:09 pm
About the women’s counseling group “staffed” by women — they’ll give out the same SGM poison that the pastors/cgl’s already give out in counseling sessions.
That by itself won’t do twiddlybot to change or help anything.
January 26th, 2009 at 10:10 pm
Christopher,
with tears I say, “amen and amen”.
January 26th, 2009 at 10:26 pm
Billy, your bottled water/kool-aid comment made me smile. Thank you! It
is nice to be given smiles. I appreciate it.
ps. (And this is not aimed at you at all, Billy. I promise. But to the rest of you. Does it bother anyone else that the church spent more money on bottled water last night than they did on feding Esther’s family EVER?)
January 26th, 2009 at 10:27 pm
Christopher-
Excellent!
January 26th, 2009 at 10:27 pm
Food For Thought:
Mr. Scott Key (one of the three) stood up and applauded with most of the members. Not sure about Mr. Sean Elgut (another of the three).
Everyone is talking about secrets on this blog, but most users are not using their names (if not all). But even the pastors wives names have been mentioned. Is this an OPEN blog, can I start naming names and get more “truth” out in the open?
There is a lot of slander excused by “my hurtness” being used on this blog as well. I guess that’s justified and the Lord will miss that right by.
Just food for thought. Maybe, more to follow.
January 26th, 2009 at 10:28 pm
Food,
Feel better now?
January 26th, 2009 at 10:33 pm
Stunned,
Yes it does… and one truth rings out to me “God will not be mocked”….
Keith should have taken complete responsibility (which I guess he did) and stepped down… if he wanted to heal the church (which I so want to believe is his true heart but he is allowing his own pride to get in the way) … EH could of been brought back to be the Senior Pastor… he is much loved there and I believe that the Lord would of used him to him to heal this church… E should of stood behind Ester …. I’m so saddened by these reports
January 26th, 2009 at 10:44 pm
Hi again,
Someone above asked what jim would have liked to have seen happen last night. Of course, I’m not speaking for Jim, but if I could, I have two things I would have liked to have seen last night.
1) Stars shooting through the sky. (Hey, who wouldn’t want to see shooting stars. It’s a cool thing.)
2) The guys who are in pastors college sitting behind and beside Esther. Isn’t THAT who you should be standing behind- the victims? What were they doing standing behind the pastors? The pastors didn’t need them. The victims of the pastors idd. There’s just something twisted there.
3) Yeah, i know, I’m already over my 2 things I would have liked to have seen. I would have liked to have seen the pastors repnt of having EVER cast any aspurgeons (sp? heck, i’m happy i know what the word means!) against the 3 couples AND against esther.
4) I would havel iked to have heard the pastors DETAIL the harm they have done to Esther’s children0 long term harm, recognizit, own it. Then share what they are going to do to undo the damage. When my kids were little, if they broek someone’s window, no matter how innocently, I taught them that they were forgiven, but they were still responsible to undo the harm they had done.
5) I would havel iked to have them acknowledged that they alone are NOT adequate to deal with serious emotioinal or psychological issues. They are called to minister to our souls. Not to be experts on everything else or anything else.
6) I would like to see them put esther in charge of the women’s ministry. She knows the damage done in that church by that church. She is the kind of woman who can recognize the pain from a mile away. Do NOT, I repeat, do NOT put a woman in that position whose like is all pretty and good. These women who need to be ministered to need a broken vessel doing the hard work, not a pretty fancy one.
7) I would have liked to have seen the pastors public thank Jim and Kris and each and every one of us on here (me most importantly, of course) for being willing to do the work of uncovering and expsoing their sin, thus giving them the ppportunity and impetus in part, to repent. For getting the news out there so that their feet were held to the proverbial (and not literal- I hate when peopel say literal fire and it’s not literal) fire and that repentance can be brought forth. praise god for this amazing evidence of grace!
8) After the meeting they hsould have been handing out the address of this web site, of sgmsurvivors website and of other websites that help people to see the effects of abuseive church structures.
9) I would have liked to have seen them repent on this site and then have them approach each of their peeps on here who have said baad stuff and tell them to repent.
10) I would have liked to have seen them NOT play music at the end, thus cutting off others who may want to speak.
11) I would have liked to have seen them given the floor to everyone and not be so darned scared of what someone might say. What are we King George the third (or which ever numeral he was), terrified of dissension? Don’t they know that it was the dissidents that BUILT this country and gave them the right of free worship?
Oh, so many more things in just one night. But now i am tired of writing about it as i am sure you are tired of reading about it.
Good night (til the next post0
January 26th, 2009 at 10:47 pm
Beloved by God wrote: About the women’s counseling group “staffed” by women — they’ll give out the same SGM poison that the pastors/cgl’s already give out in counseling sessions.
That by itself won’t do twiddlybot to change or help anything.
Me: Bingo – who is going to be thge “women” in those positions? Maybe they can bring janis shank, she’s a good, caring, empethic woman (sarcasim)……..
Mom – Do you really want a fresh out of PC EH leading that church? Yes, he’s got the relationships, but the question on why he is there now? How long has he been on staff? He should have stood with Esther. I’ve covered my thoughts on him before, he’s got a big heart, but he will submit to the SGM way…..
Billy, Stein, etc – The truth will set you free! Should you ever see what is really going on in SGM, we are all here to support you!!! We will not say “I told you so”, but give you support.
Beloved by God – I have a “nice” conversation when I left the Ches church with bendinelli. Feel free to contact me if you want to chat about him.
January 26th, 2009 at 10:51 pm
Food for Thought, it’s not slander if it’s truth being stated publicly, with humility, in order to save others from being harmed in the future and bring conviction of sin. I got that from the article on Passing Along Bad Reports.
We’re all sinners here. But those who have spoken out in their pain (the ones you accused of slandering others, then excusing it by “my hurtness”) are, indeed, in pain. What excuse do the pastors and apostles have for the harm they caused and the slander spoken about my good friend Sean Elgut? These pastors were not in pain. They accused and slandered and prior to that ignored an abused woman’s pleas for help. And this is not the first time a SG pastoral team has done this. The same situation has played out across the country over and over again. I can’t sit idly by and listen to you talk about the precious wounded — yes, even those who react with hostility (hostility is a depression symptom, by the way — one that’s little known) — as if they (we) are the ones to be blamed somehow. For sounding an alarm? I think maybe because this is so widespread and the problems have been going on for so long, we’re tired of playing nice. You know how you feel (well, you guys probably don’t do this but stay with me) when you’ve told your child to get out of the street and they aren’t listening or obeying? You say it once calmly and rationally, you say it again with a little more authority, then as the bus comes hauling down the street you scream it. “Get out of the street! NOW!” That’s kind of how I feel at the moment. Not cynical or bitter because I’ve dealt with all that and been reconciled to my old friends. But there are people here who haven’t and who are still sore and bleeding. They simply CAN’T be nice about this anymore. It’s too urgent.
BUT five of the nine “grievances” were repented of. That’s good news! I hope more good news will come of this in the future. I really do. It warms my heart to think God is going to move. Sort of feels like Narnia when they all know Aslan is on the move but don’t know when or how he’ll show up this time. There’s an excitement to that.
Yes, I do tend to think God will overlook the hostility and anger where it’s represented here. Have you actually heard these people’s stories of abuse at the hands of those they turned to for help and sat under in authority? A couple of them are lucky to be alive.
I doubt Sean applauded. But what difference does that make?
January 26th, 2009 at 10:53 pm
Food,
Great comment!
Wow. Profound.
(yes, that was sarcastic. none of us go to your blog and bash you and your friends/family for what they say, do we?)
Anyway, why freely give out others’ names and not your own? What’s your name, Food?
January 26th, 2009 at 10:56 pm
kids going to bed was used for a reason to limit the formal meeting; it was for the kids in child care. Facts matter, I guess they don’t here.
January 26th, 2009 at 10:56 pm
soonex said “I just felt lead to post my view of what happened last night. I shouldn’t have mentioned that I didn’t stand in applause. Please forgive.”
Soonex, t[;ease don’t ask for forgiveness. We WANTn to know what happened and if we were told that everyone stood then we’d have one idea of what happened. The fact that you shared that you did not stand, gave us a more accurate picture of the night. We wanted to know because we give a darn. Please don’t allow any condemnation or shame you are feeling cause you to regret sharing that detail. I understand if you may be worrried that you ight swell with pride for doing the right thing, thus felt badly after you said it and thus repented of it. Go ahead and repent if God is convicting you, but i just need to share, I dont’ see how it is sin to report it. If you feel badly for feeling proud about it, then go ahead and ask God to forgive you of that. But please, dont’ repent of sharing the accurate details with us. You did us all a service, whether you can see it or not.
Thank you Soonex.
January 26th, 2009 at 11:08 pm
awww Food for Thought….
I call people pin-heads at survivors, and in deference to Jim, I won’t do it here…but really…you’re a pin-head.
January 26th, 2009 at 11:09 pm
Dear Stien,
YOu said, “but right now I believe that God has called us there. I don’t write this flippantly or without much prayer. When its time to go, God will lead us.”
Amen, brother! (It’s brother, right?) Right before I got t that part of your post I was thinking the same thing, that God can and will call you whereever He wants you. To SGM (which I believe is where He calls many) or somewhere else. I am so glad to see my brother/sister/gender nuetral sibling (for lack of sure knowledge- nO DOUBT in person you are NOT gender neutral) obeying our Daddy. he is and will lead you exactly as He wants. If He calls you to be in SGM the rest of your life, I back you 100%, dear sibling. (It was shorter than going through the whole gender neutral thing again.) He is our daddy, He is our leader. I rejoice to see Him giving us the grace to obey. Hallelujah! And amen.
January 26th, 2009 at 11:14 pm
“You just say you are sorry in as brief a fashion as possible.And he kept stressing brief. ”
Hi Dee! welcome.
The above goes 100% against what they tuaght me in private pastoral counseling some 20 years ago. How sad.
January 26th, 2009 at 11:23 pm
billy said, “I like your style, refugees! ”
Thank you, billy. Right now I am wearing a nice dress, ruffles around the sleeves and a flower on the front. Modest, yet somehow, a bit fetching. Thank you for noticing and appreciating it.
Stunned
and flattered
January 26th, 2009 at 11:29 pm
Christopher,
Thanks for posting your thoughts. I just want to ask leaders of these controlling churches, where is the love?
Stunned,
Amazing thoughts.
And then there is Food For Thought, who doesn’t seem to understand what the word “slander” means. Man, can’t some of these folks even think for themselves? Must they come on here with nothing more rational than “you slander and gossip”? It is getting so old. Read the stories, for goodness sakes. Are we all lying? Do we have nothing better to do than sit around posting gossip about a church group we left long ago? Sorry, not even bitterness would keep me going on this blog. It takes to much effort, too much emotional energy.
We are here because we love the Body, the WHOLE Body, and we wish to see others find their freeedom in Christ. The injustice done in controlling churches must be stopped. It is WRONG to lord over the sheep. It is WRONG to cover up the truth to save your reputation or your job. It is WRONG to manipulate people to follow you.
And it is very wrong to stop the Holy Spirit from working amongst His people. I have seen this with my own eyes. I have six witnesses who can testify that our leaders in my old church decided to end the Holy Spirit’s moving in our midst. Our CG leader told us the leaders had done this. This is not gossip or slander. It is the truth!
Have a good night, everyone.
January 26th, 2009 at 11:42 pm
I hope this works. It is a song that I am praying both for myself and for those whom I love dearly that are still in a SG church.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kiv1SMv3GCY
January 26th, 2009 at 11:43 pm
Long Sufferer said, “I stiil feel, though, that much is still hidden”
It is. Much is still hidden. I don’t know a thing. (No shock to any regular readers here.) But I can feel down to my bones. Yeah, I don’t blame yap or stein for rolling their eyes at this. I swear, if I were you I might be doing that right now, too. I totally understand. Heck, I just did it to myself. Nope. I’ not kidding. I just rolled my own eyes at myself for how ridiculous this must seem for how confident I am about this. I have no idea how I “know” it 9as if I can say I know it! Ha , what a shmoe I am some days (how does one smell shmoe? No e? e? with a c or double o’s?) - Please, no one agree with this, I am great at scooping it out and horrible at taking it- I know, I’m a baby.)… where was I? …Yes, I have no idea why I think this is necessary to share, but I do and I’m finally learning to listen to the “gut” God put in me. I’ve never regretted listening to it, but have countless times regretted ignoring it in favor of something ‘religious’ or “right”. So here goes the gut…
Stein, remember when you said, (I’m sorry if I got this wrong and am attributing it to the wrong person but I think it was you. If not, please feel free to speak up if anyone wants it attributed correctly), but remember when you said something like, “now the light is out or the truth is out or everything is out in the light or something like that? immediately down to my bones I felt, “No, it’s not. There is still sooooo much more that is being hidden. Much that needs to come to light in order to help the people and prevent further abuse. Much.”
Stein, my bro, I really don’t mean to be a Debbie Downer. Really. Hate doing that to people and to myself. Truly, I’m the kind of person that gets a flat on the side of the road and starts laughing ‘cause I have this bazaar tendency to see the humor in everything. I like that. I like being my sunshiny self. But, instead, when I read what you wrote, I was quite upset inside of me. I didn’t want to say anything because I didn’t want to dampen things, yet there was a part of me that felt I was supposed to share this. I don’t mean necessarily for you. (And again, 2 points if you’ve even stuck it out this long in this post.) I just felt like I was supposed to say what I’ve just said for someone, anyone. So don’t know why I am addressing you directly other than the fact that maybe I am responding to both you and longsufferer.
Anyway, hope you and everyone has a good night.
PS. I still don’t like beer, yet your handle still makes me smile.
January 26th, 2009 at 11:49 pm
billy said, “They have always included them in every family meeting.”
just as a tiny fyi, no, they have not.
and yes, i would have loved fireworks. i love them at any time. well any time duing the night. i don’t see how they would be visible during the day. I mean, if they set them off during the day, people woudl just hear the loud banging noise and it could just scare them and make them think a war was starting. i remember this one time… well, i’ll tell it the next time we are all hanging out…
January 26th, 2009 at 11:51 pm
billy said, “They have always included them in every family meeting.”
just as a tiny fyi, no, they have not included children in every family meeting. (Heck, they are not even welcome in homegroup any more, though they used to be.)
and yes, i would have loved fireworks. i love them at any time. well any time duing the night. i don’t see how they would be visible during the day. I mean, if they set them off during the day, people woudl just hear the loud banging noise and it could just scare them and make them think a war was starting. i remember this one time… well, i’ll tell it the next time we are all hanging out…
January 27th, 2009 at 12:09 am
Stunned you make me laugh
I understand that “gut feeling.” It’s nice to be able to actually listen to the Spirit when He leads instead of questioning it for days (like I used to.)
January 27th, 2009 at 12:14 am
Canary said, “How passionate was Paul when he wished that the legalists should “go all the way and emasculate themselves” because they were insisting on the Gentiles being circumcized. ”
As a huge fan of Lorena Bobbit, I want to say a big thank you for reminding me of that scripture. Dang, if Paul said that, why are people getting in an uproar and calling US bitter? I don’t remember any of us calling for castration. (Though to be honest, I should add the word “yet” in there.) So everyone who likes to throw the bitter ball at us, go read paul for a while, THEN tell us how horrible it is to use sarcasm. Heck, sit in a CJ sermon and tell us it’s a bad thing.
January 27th, 2009 at 1:20 am
canary said (and it was brilliant), “Sorry, not even bitterness would keep me going on this blog. It takes to much effort, too much emotional energy.
We are here because we love the Body, the WHOLE Body, .’
ummm, i can’t beat that. just wanted to repost it with a big THANK YOU for giving words to my heart. beautifully and accurately spoken. Amen.
January 27th, 2009 at 3:50 am
Oh my, I read most of this when I got home tonight (last night?)….a few hours ago anyway, fell asleep (love laptops – bedtops, actually), woke up and finished the rest. I agreed with so much of what you all wrote, got mad at some of it, was glad others had already taken the time (and done it much better than I ever could have) to respond to the parts that I would have, and laughed along with some (my silly bird friend, and also Miss Stunned, lolol).
CAS!!! So, so glad to see you, I’ve missed you!! (and your little “heh”, too).
——-I think I am falling asleep again….
love yous guys!!! Jesus is sooooooooo good!!
January 27th, 2009 at 6:36 am
Food for Thought:
You have it wrong. If the pastors had really wanted to be transparent, kids wouldn’t have been allowed at all at the meeting. I’ve got to admit…they are slick. Nothing like blaming it on bedtimes to shorten an important meeting. They sure didn’t allow them at the Dec 20 meeting where Gene Emerson and Keith Breault and the rest of the pastors slandered the three couples and called them enemies of the church in front of people they thought would play along. Except we know now not all people in attendance at THAT meeting were faithful yes-men.
As for the applauding I’m sure the three couples did applaud at times…and I know for a fact at times they didn’t. It was a good thing to see Keith Breault have to admit that they were wrong and ask for forgiveness from us lowly sheep. That’s what they were applauding about. It’s just too bad the confessions just didn’t go far enough.
The right thing to do that night would have been to release Keith from his duties (by Gene, his supposed overseer) and have Eric assume duties as Senior Pastor. I, and others in attendance as well, don’t believe Eric was called down from the Pastor’s College just to play two worship songs and get up in front of everyone when the pastor’s confessed. I believe he was there to get a good grip on what exactly happened that night so he knows what has transpired after he takes over the helm of the SGC ship when he’s done with PC.
While you’re outing people, maybe you should have mentioned the role Doug Davis, Todd Barstow, and Chuck Snader (the Financial Team…aka “Keith’s PR Squad”) had to play in all of this charade. I’ll go into that myself later…maybe.
Maybe you should have mentioned how Tim Hulme, Ray Cagle, and Brian Wasko were all fired (yes, FIRED…there’s really no other term for what happened to them) from their jobs as pastors in the church for “lack of gifting,” if I can use that Steve Shank term. Their transgressions were far less against ANYONE in that church than the pastoral team that is serving now with the exception of maybe CM and KA. The horror stories I’ve heard firsthand by former members about the Gestapo-style interrogations by BC during “counseling” sessions, for example, are just atrocious.
Hi Stein! Yes, people are drinking the kool-aid at SGC and, well, it is what it is. My farewell letter to the church won’t be quite as blunt as the greetings to you, but I’ll be saying the same thing nonetheless. Thanks for your concern. BTW…have you tried the Beach Ball Blonde Ale from Homebrew USA? Good stuff man!
January 27th, 2009 at 7:39 am
A WORD FOR GENE EMERSON AND HIS ATTEMPT TO SQUELCH TRUTH:
The Article given out on Sunday at Ches. by Gene Emerson was titled, “Passing on Bad Reports.” What a “Bad Report” is, is very Subjective! What the leadership of SGM defines as Bad Reports, I guarantee most men would classify as “Good Reports,” as they serve to warn the sheep of abusive tactics.
THEREFORE:
SHARING THE TRUTH IS NOT GOSSIP OR SLANDER, AND THEREFORE NOT BAD REPORTS, IF IT IS DONE WITH HUMILITY AND THE PURPOSE IS TO PREVENT FUTURE HARM OR ABUSE AND SAVE LIVES AND SOULS. THEREFORE THIS ARTICLE DOES NOT APPLY TO THEM. I FEAR, HOWEVER, THESE ABUSIVE TACTICS CONTINUE UNTIL THIS HOUSE FALLS!
January 27th, 2009 at 7:44 am
I have read through all of these comments, and the question that keeps coming up in my mind is ”Why?”
Why do people join a SGM church in the first place?
Why do the members want to be “controlled”?
Why do they tolerate the obvious abuse by pastors?
Why do parents raise their children in such an unhealthy church environment?
Why don’t SGMers just leave and go find a healthy church?
Why, why, why???
I just don’t understand . . .
Would someone please help me make sense of it all?
January 27th, 2009 at 8:26 am
Wanda,
The short answer to your question is that the folks who are happy within SGM don’t believe they are being controlled. But they DO believe that their church environment is actually the healthiest one they can find for their kids. They’ve also never experienced what they would perceive to be “abuse” from their pastors. And they believe that their SGM church IS a healthy church.
January 27th, 2009 at 8:32 am
Wanda,
“Why do people join a SGM church in the first place?”
For me, I didn’t have my biological family close and they provided a warm fuzzy belonging feeling. Which was why being dismembered hurt so much.
“Why do the members want to be “controlled”?”
See above, additionally, it’s easier to be told what God wants you to do rather than go to all the trouble of praying and reading the Bible and seeking direction. yaddayyadda.
“Why do they tolerate the obvious abuse by pastors?”
They are frightened.
“Why do parents raise their children in such an unhealthy church environment?”
Fear Their parenting methodology is all fear-based. Why would a mother not feeed her crying obviously hungry baby? Because if she does, she will be encouraging rebellion and selfishness in the baby…fear-based…hint-hint, normal people don’t ascribe evil motives in their infants.
“Why don’t SGMers just leave and go find a healthy church?”
They think what they have is healthy.
I pray for their eyes to open.
January 27th, 2009 at 8:34 am
Kris,
I agree. To SGMer’s, an SGM church is the only game in town. All other churches are inferior. They/We (an ex-We actually) are taught that the doctrine of sin is all-important at the cost of being taught that exclusively. It IS important, but so are the other doctrines in the New Testament. The message of the doctrine of sin is just repackaged over and over and over again, no matter what they say the message is about. It is rather slick how they do it, but pastors commonly puff up how the doctrine of sin and the Cross are taught in SGM churches while other churches teach lovey-feely doctrine, basically saying the other churches teach fluff and nonsense and stuff just to make people feel better about themselves. Just what kool-aid drinkers want to here: they are at the best possible place.
January 27th, 2009 at 8:40 am
Wanda, it felt to me like I had instant friends whose children would always be nice to mine (except that time four-year-old Sebree left a circle of teethmarks on my Hannah’s cheek at a play date over at the Hulmes!)
I felt accepted, included, part of the sorority I never got to pledge in college, and at times like I was becoming holier and holier and that made me happy because I felt God was doing a “work” within me.
As time went on, they kept placing more and more burdens on us. We had to work harder to submit to our husbands, were given pointers about how to be available to our husbands on a more regular basis because we are called to always say yes to sex, were told our children could not just obey, they had to obey quickly, cheerfully, and completely while looking us straight in the eye and if they said “Okay, Mom” instead of “Yes, Mom” they were only acquiesing and not fully obeying. At what point does one actually “arrive” at good parenting? When they’re perfect? But Jesus said none of us could be perfect. That’s why we need a Savior.
As I write this now, it occurs to me that church used to be, before SGM, a place we went to talk about Jesus, to worship Him, to adore Him, to parse Scripture. Somewhere along the way, it became a marriage enrichment and parent training center instead of a church. Sovereign Grace Ministries: a Family Training Center. That is a more accurate representation of what we found it to be ten years ago. Not a center for worship and Bible study or reaching the lost. But I can’t speak for it today at all and we were only there three years so I really can’t say much about it back then either!
So after all of that was put on us wives and moms, I began to dislike God. I perceived that He was the one putting all these burdens on me and I was liking Him less and less with each week. Then one year we didn’t go to Celebration. Can’t remember why. Maybe I was too pregnant? We went to visit another church along with the Waites. It was eye-opening. Refreshing. I remembered my first love. But I was unsuccessful in making people understand why we were leaving. They all felt SG Chesapeake was a little piece of heaven on earth. So we walked away.
There are nuances to every story. I haven’t been to this church in more than ten years. I have NO IDEA how things have been going since I left. None. It’s possibly not even a good idea for me to be posting on this blog since I’ve been away for so long. I’m here because I care about my God being represented rightly. And I care about the children. I think that’s the main thing.
And Wanda, I’m grateful for people like you who can look at all this objectively. I can’t really because it’s too close to my heart even now, ten years later. My hope is that as we pray, we will see change. We each have to walk the path He’s chosen for us. If mine isn’t within SGM but someone else’s is, I can’t tell them to leave. But I do think it’s healthier to worship elsewhere. Doesn’t mean I don’t love and respect all my friends who are still at these churches!!!
January 27th, 2009 at 8:55 am
It’s often stuff you just don’t know. I mean, from the pulpit, everything sounds great.
The problem is the huge gap between sermon and practice. “We’re humble.” “You can come to us and bring correction.” ” We value women” But they don’t add, “Sort of like the Taliban does.”
It all looks shiny and wonderful and new. And who knows what goes on behind the scenes until someone opens up and talks about it. By the time you get to that level in SGM that you DO start to find things out, then you are probably so invested, jumping ship over the one small matter that you discover, seems like a waste. So you have to make a decision to believe the best, because, after all, you have been fed a steady diet of how you are NOT to trust your own instincts and how it’s pride to do so. And so there are you left with a quandary- believe the best (as God, surely would want you to do) and humble yourself enough to doubt what your gut is telling you (“the human heart is wicked above all things” is basically a motto there), thus, once again, obeying God himself it would seem, or be a proud, arrogant, unloving, unfaithful person and rip your children and your family and yourself out of this support system, out of the happiest place on earth, away from the church (because to leave churches is tantamount to being unfaithful, being a scatterbrained butterfly who just flitters from church to church, but who doesn’t SERVE the church, the bride of Christ, who is too foolish to realize that “there is no perfect church and even if you did find one, the moment you join, it’s no longer perfect (how many times did we hear that one, folks?), to leave church would be to be not trusting God, putting yourself in jeapordy, etc, etc. Of course, if God calls you to leave the happiest place on earth and go to somewhere greatly inferior, then that’s fine. But after seeing enough shunnings, you begin to realize you’ll not only leave over what seems to be a minor incident (and after all, there are no perfect churches), but you’ll be choosing bad things for your family and for yourself. So if you leave it really isn’t a very wise choice, now is it?
In light of all this, the tiny thing you find out seems so little.
So you must do one of two things, leave, flinging yourself out of the safety of SGM (which, after you have been there long enough to start discovering the dark truths, you have already come to believe their false beliefs that everywhere else is bad and dangerous), OR you decide that it is YOU who must be wrong for being upset or concerned over such a “small matter”. So your mind must change if you are going to stay. Thus the beginning of something we like to call “cognitive dissosance.” (OK, it’s not me who likes to call it that. I can’t even spell it. But that is what people who study these kinds of things call it.)
So then you say, “but the truth is out here, it’s being exposed here. Why don’t they see it then?”
Because they don’t trust us. Another bit of the SGM indoctrination is the mistrust of those outside of the movement. From parachurch organizations, to others who don’t go to an AGM church, we’re not going to hell, but we’re not doing things God’s way. We don’t have the wisdom those within SGM have. We are in sin to even be discussing it. An SGMer is in sin for even reading it. If an SGMer reads it, they should be rebuking us… etc.
It’s so much more subtle than you would think. And so much more powerful and effective. Bright minds, good hearts can get wrapped up in it. In fact, there are some areas of manipulation, some techniques that work MUCH better on people with high moral standards. SGM happens to practice a lot of them. (Though I’m not saying they do so intentionally. Though I’m not saying they don’t do so intentionally, either.)
January 27th, 2009 at 9:00 am
“Why don’t SGMers just leave and go find a healthy church?”
I think there are a lot more people in SGM who realize the problems than are willing to admit it. But even for those who see the problems (whether they’re willing to admit it or not), after a few years of being in, SGM becomes your world. You wake up one day and realize you can’t remember when the last time you talked to your non-SGM friends was. You know what’s going on isn’t right, but you’re afraid of being lonely. And you just don’t know where else you could go to church, because you’ve been trained to see the ”doctrinal errors” in every other church. And you’ve got so many responsibilities within the church, you’re afraid of letting people down. It is, as someone has called it previously, learned helplessness.
January 27th, 2009 at 9:01 am
Ex-I need to talk to you. can you call me?
321-five zero four-4542
January 27th, 2009 at 9:04 am
“As I write this now, it occurs to me that church used to be, before SGM, a place we went to talk about Jesus, to worship Him, to adore Him, to parse Scripture. Somewhere along the way, it became a marriage enrichment and parent training center instead of a church. Sovereign Grace Ministries: a Family Training Center. ”
AMEN
January 27th, 2009 at 9:23 am
I also knew families who were just “immune” to the control….as someone mentioned, they were content to worship alongside everyone, take the good, and reject that which was wrong or unbalanced. The elite ones always knew who these people were and always seemed to treat them with suspicion or at least a high amount of caution. None of them simply “left”….they were driven away.
January 27th, 2009 at 9:44 am
Freedom Fighter said:
“As time went on, they kept placing more and more burdens on us. We had to work harder to submit to our husbands, were given pointers about how to be available to our husbands on a more regular basis because we are called to always say yes to sex . . .”
Freedom Fighter,
Thanks for pointing out the REAL drawing card for men to Sovereign Grace Ministries. This is NOT rocket science!
Intimacy between a married couple should be MUTUAL, and I don’t believe this to be the case in SGM. When a woman has six kids, homeschools, and works to keep her household running smoothly, how in the world can she have enough stamina to “service” her husband whenever HE so desires?
SHAME ON YOU tyrants in Sovereign Grace Ministries!!! Where’s the love for your wives whom you treat like servants?
This is NOT biblical manhood and womanhood! C.J. Mahaney and Co. are wrongly interpreting Scripture, and there will be a day of reckoning!
January 27th, 2009 at 9:56 am
Okay, well, I didn’t mean to inflame you, Wanda. That was just one of the things I noticed. On the other side of things, my husband was given instructions to bring me flowers, candy, whatever, too, within his accountability group. The idea was that we’re both so busy making each other happy by preferring the other that all will be a perfect example of Christ and His bride. The problem I had with it was that it was contrived instead of spontaneous from the heart. I want my husband to bring me flowers because it was his idea, not the care group leader’s.
I mentioned two families by last name without even thinking whether or not they want their names on here. Now it’s too late to edit. I’m sorry! I really don’t want to do that. They did not give me permission. (Now don’t all go scrolling up to see who I talked about, please!!!)
January 27th, 2009 at 10:14 am
Freedom Fighter,
Are you aware that a number of Sovereign Grace churches nationwide have had police reports about domestic abuse? I wonder how much of this has been “covered up” over the years.
I’m sure there are some men in SGM who treat their wives respectfully, but I believe Sovereign Grace Ministries has the tendency to attract men who abuse their wives and children physically and/or emotionally.
January 27th, 2009 at 10:31 am
Wanda,
“a number of Sovereign Grace churches nationwide have had police reports about domestic abuse”
How many reports are we talking about in how many churches? Can you quantify this in some way? Is this anecdotal or do you have some hard numbers you could share? How many cases of domestic abuse are you aware of first hand and would these be cases where the husband was not abusive and then having joined an sgm church he then felt that spousal abuse (emotional or physical) was acceptable?
“I’m sure there are some men in SGM who treat their wives respectfully, but I believe Sovereign Grace Ministries has the tendency to attract men who abuse their wives and children physically and/or emotionally.”
Are you saying that the majority of husbands in sgm are in some way abusive? Would you want to stick a percentage on this? Is there some statistical data you could point me to that demonstrates that sgm contains more abusers as a percentage than other denominations or sects?
When you were part of sgm were the majority of your women friends victims of abuse?
I’m just trying to get a feel for how big of a problem domestic abuse is within sgm.
Thanks.
January 27th, 2009 at 10:42 am
That’s reasonable question Joel.
Blanket statements make me nervous (especially when I make them myself).
I think you’re new here? I honestly can’t keep up. If so-welcome!
If not… err…welcome back!
January 27th, 2009 at 10:49 am
From a man’s perspective, I’d say that my SGC helped me become a better husband and father. The guys I interacted with were much harder on me than anyone was on my wife.
As a CGL/staff counselor, my assumption was that martial problems were usually the guy’s fault. The men (and their wives) who received marital advice from me were well aware of this.
January 27th, 2009 at 10:50 am
Joel,
I agree with your questions. I think they are very very important.
One thing I would like to say to that is this….If there was EVER just ONE case of pastors, leaders, apostles etc NOT going directly to the police and NOT protecting and advocating for the innocent, the ENTIRE system has a problem.
If you read Noel’s story on the SGM Survivors blog, you will see that this has happened at least 3 times and the apostles did know of the situations.
So, while I would like Wanda to quantify her comment as well, I don’t think we need a ‘widespread problem’ to say that there is a major organizational problem.
January 27th, 2009 at 10:55 am
What’s it –
I’m aware of Noel’s story. That was a case of child sexual abuse and it is terrible story indeed.
I’m specifically asking about spousal abuse. I’m not sure the police take reports on emotional abuse – could be wrong about that, but I’ve never heard of that happening.
January 27th, 2009 at 10:58 am
Wow! After reading all the post, I don’t even know where to start. My family was there at the meeting. Because it was such and important night, we left our child at home as did many other families. We were expecting an “open forum” at the end of the meeting to have a question and answer time. Now it seems that there is more gossip than before, because people are calling saying “could you believe when so and so asked Gene Emerson blah, blah blah, his answer was …………… Yeah how about Keith’s answer to so and so????? I must say I was disappointed in the “speech” I will call it. There was no quivering in Keith’s voice, no tear filled eyes, just a pre-written apology. I had seen more emotion from the pulpit on Sunday message. It did seem “one-sided” as posted earlier, but we wereon the 3 couples side as well as Esther’s side. We only hung in there as long as we could, Jan 25th so wecould have closure. Having beddie bye time for the kids was for crowd control as well as having 10 and older attend.
Wanda, you ask why people join? SGC of Ches was the first Church we had been to in years. Neither of us were raised in a Christian home so it seemed appealing to us. The music was contemporary and that is what drew me first. Not your Grandma’s hymns. Attendance for us has been for the last 6 yrs. (I am speaking for myself here…….) In the beginning all I could do was weep at the thought of how I needed a Savior. By God’s amazing grace, I finally came to the conclusion I was a sinner. Now after years of care group (control), the books were we told to read, and the messages of gossip, and the list goes on….we know what control is and damage control. So when approaching a Pastor, the first question is “where is your heart in this matter?”. Well let’s see…..well of course the answer is going to be it’s in the wrong place, so therefore why did I come to you for counseling? It is a pre-cursor, a set up, so when you bring an observance to them, ultimitely you will be the blame.
Stunned: When you said we had been fed a steady diet of not trusting our own instincts because it is pride, and we have to much vested to jump ship………I’m here to tell ya, my instincts are telling us to hit the door as fast as we can run. Loosing us to another Church will be like a chair falling off the Titanic. We will not be missed. We probably won’t get a call to socialize because we will just disappear.
Live wire said in a post on 1/26 at 11:52 about the role the financial team played. We can say we are so glad they sent that first letter. THANK GOD because of that letter, followed by the one pushing midnight, those 2 letters is what brought this mess to light. That’s when people started asking questions.
Sounds good “we have decided to increase of benevolence giving by 10 times” wow, to the person that didn’t know it was only $1,000 to begin with, this sounds pretty impressive! $9,000 was the number given.
After talking about the “passing of the bad reports” document, NO ONE mentioned we were offered that POLITY book FREE of charge at the back of the church when we left.
Which raises the question…..Live Wire brought this up in his conversation with Gene Emerson…..The Pastors are not responsible to answer to the congregation or to him? There you have it…all in a nutshell…things will NEVER change.
Stein, I think I know who you are. If I send you a package of Kool aid in the mail, will you promise me you will respond and say you got it? What flavor would you like? (I’m sorry already, forgive me for this comment)
Another confession……I stood up when most everyone else did because I had a fear of man attack.
On our first visit to another church, The message was “There is joy & victory at the cross”. How refreshing!
January 27th, 2009 at 10:59 am
Considering the talk above about the pastors in Denver: I was referring to a different individual entirely than the gentlement mentioned above, sorry.
But, just how many pastors in the Denver are have been relieved or retired from their positions?
January 27th, 2009 at 11:07 am
Joel and Wanda
Wanda makes a valid point. Yes, they are anecdotal. However, various SGM churches have had investigations over issues of domestic abuse. When lots and lots of reports occur, one should not rule them out of hand. Even this site allows for ”anecdotal” experience. Most serious issues are first described in a series of like experiences. This site has been a Godsend to those who have had these “anecdotal” experiences.
I am a nurse who was called upon to follow up on various claims of abuse over a number of years. One common element of abuse is the need for a weak individual to finally become the “guy in charge.” Churches who have a tendency to be very authoritarian attract these individuals because they see a possible answer to asserting their control.
As many of you know, old CJ was very involved in the shepherding movement of the 70s. This movement was known for its discipline of the sheep. And it wasn’t pretty. There were many reports of abuse and many were convicted of it. Read the history.We now know that this was true and much evidence was compiled. CJ had to get out of Dodge. So, he morphed it into PDI and then SGM. History that isn’t carefully explored can lead to us making the same mistakes all over again. Just because SGM appears new, it is not. Its just the same old, same old. Man does not change and “There is nothing new under the sun.”
He has not changed, but has gotten a bit more clever. Authoritarian structures will attract those more inclined to abuse. He knows it and has done nothing to prevent what happened many years ago. I happen to know a lot about that movement because some of my friends were sucked in. Thankfully, I attended wonderful evangelical churches that did not put up with this dangerous nonsense.
One other point, CJ did not further his education beyond high school. There is much to be said for formal training in the history and interpretation of Scripture. He then starts a “Pastors College. I tried to get a curriculum and a list of graduates. I can’t do it. All good seminaries list in depth their training. Secretive pastoral training is not usual and should raise alarm bells. CJ is passing on his warped uneducated view of Scripture to the next generation. There is a reason that it takes 3 years minimum to get a Masters in Divinity from real seminaries.
So, here’s the deal. Wanda has provided you with some information. That information does jive with the history of CJs institutions. Don’t bury your heads and think that, just because its anecdotal, it is not real. Scripture tells us to research and way the evidence. SGM does not like you to do so.
Good going, Wanda. Keep warning them.
January 27th, 2009 at 11:12 am
June 08, the pastor who planted the church in South Denver, Keith Jacob, was relieved of his duties because of “lack of gifting.” He was the ONLY pastor. Shank never communicated what the gifting necessary for a senior or only pastor is in SGM.
Jan 09, the pastor of the North Denver church (I believe he was also on the church plant from Chesapeake, VA church with the Shanks), Davd Bendinelli, quit. Or, he retired. I was told by someone who was there Sunday when he retired, that he was “weary for a long time” and he and his family had been praying for years about what to do. So, he retired from ministry and is now going to go back to his old profession.
January 27th, 2009 at 11:47 am
Christopher, excellent points, and welcome! I agree, what the leaders at Chesapeake did was offer “solutions” to prevent further problems, but did nothing to address the damage done. Damage control, I suppose, is future damage, not previous. How that must grieve the Lord..
January 27th, 2009 at 11:47 am
Just to reiterate how we aren’t saying that every SGM pastor has these problems… I heard nearly 10 years ago that a situation similar to Esther’s happened at the Knoxville, TN church. Those pastors actually counseled “their Esther” to go so far as to get a divorce, as they felt the husband’s actions warranted it. Then they kicked the husband off their membership roll.
Just sayin’… they aren’t all bad apples, and the ones who are aren’t all bad in the same way(s). And I praise God for the good stuff when I see it.
I just want to see more, ’s all.
January 27th, 2009 at 12:12 pm
“Ministry Qualifications of Pastors
Pastors must be apt to teach (1 Tim. 3:2), that is, the ability to instruct in doctrine. Didaktikovn means one that is capable of teaching.10 A man that is prudent and of sound mind should naturally be able to communicate the Word of God. His delight should be instructing the unknowledgeable and correcting those who stray away from the truth of God’s Word.
Secondly, pastors are to hold fast the faithful word (Tit. 1:9). They are not to introduce new revelations or doctrines contrary to what Scripture teaches. It is because he is a mature man of God that he should not compromise Scripture, but to study with great care and diligence.
Pastors must teach sound doctrine both to exhort and convince the gainsayers (Tit. 1:9). Not only is the pastor to encourage and disciple other believers by means of sound doctrine, but also he is to correct and rebuke those who are teaching falsely. It is not enough that he teaches sound doctrine; if he is aware of false teaching being taught among the church of God he is to stop and correct those who are spreading lies.
It is worthy of note that none of the qualifications for pastors are optional. This is proved by the word “must” before each of the qualifications. The reason for pastors to meet these requirements is that they may “purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus” (1 Tim. 3:13).”
http://www.eternalministries.o.....ations.htm
I think that it is prudent to study and research these topics to be sure that we are right before the Lord and therefore glorify the Lord in all that we say and do.
Of course this may not be SGM doctrinal beliefs but it seems to me that they are widely accepted to be true.
January 27th, 2009 at 12:14 pm
Oh, Travis! I’m glad to hear that they protected the wife in that situation!! Thanks for telling us!
January 27th, 2009 at 12:38 pm
My name is Bob Blackburn and I am a member of Sovereign Grace Church in Chesapeake, VA. I have been observing this blog and the many posts etc. This will be my only post. I refuse to be “anonymous”!
I have been a member of 3 SGM churches,, since 2001 and have had many experiences, most OUTSTANDING, some not so much. I am a believer in Christ Crucified and Risen, I don’t drink kool-aid and I am not abusive to my wife, I am a sinner who has been forgiven much, my kids attend VERITAS Christian School ….I tell you all that so you don’t have to assume anything…☺
I am hurt as are many at zealousness and emotional energy being expelled in this forum. If we took a portion of that energy to build up whatever church you are a member of and serving God’s people and the lost, so much would be accomplished!
We could feed a lot of people in the time spent expelling all the emotional energy. (Not diminishing the various issues that you experienced.)
I am grieved about the situation that has caused the strife in my church in Chesapeake, and am grateful that there is a plan to go forward and a plan to reconcile with the ones that have been hurt. I am a believer in Matthew 18, but please consider the balance of that text that is the Unmerciful Servant.
The other point for your consideration is that we may be holding on too tightly to our own opinion and when things don’t go our way, we get sideways. I am not dismissing that folks were and are hurting, just looking for the fact that all of us deserve hell, but our Heavenly Father forgave us all much…by sending HIS Son to die for our sins! ☺
I can understand disagreeing with a number of issues in SGM; however if SGM churches are not for you, find where you are to serve, continually harboring bitterness (again no finger pointing, just reading tone) and harping on every incident as if someone woke up and decided to mess up YOUR DAY! I am certain that there are good intentions, maybe finding the grace in that could be a way to defuse.
For the members of Sovereign Grace Church Chesapeake that are upset and disgruntled (especially LS, who presents as a Care Group Leader) please call me at seven five seven/three three one/zero zero seven one to discuss your pain and allow me to act as a peacekeeper. If you are determined to leave the church, I support you, but please don’t leave bitter and angry. I am not a “leader” in the church; I just believe that spewing anonymously is not serving anyone but you.
Remember that all pastors will stand before the Father and give an account, as will you for your family, don’t allow bitterness to foster and tear down HIS Church. Additionally consider the message that you are sending to your kids that pastors are to be mocked and ridiculed? I am certain that is not serving them or your wives who are called to submit to God , through you…mixed messages are not helpful…
For those that don’t like the Polity form of Church government, go to a different kind of church. Please find your JOY in what God finds JOYFUL, certainly there is no JOY in tearing at SGM and local pastors etc…
I am saddened that many people on this blog were hurt and can only pray that you are reconciled and find peace….
I leave you with this scripture that we can all benefit from..
TITUS 3:1-10
Remind them to be submissive to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready for every good work, 2 to speak evil of no one, to avoid quarreling, to be gentle, and to show perfect courtesy toward all people. 3 For we ourselves were once foolish, disobedient, led astray, slaves to various passions and pleasures, passing our days in malice and envy, hated by others and hating one another. 4 But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, 5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. 8 The saying is trustworthy, and I want you to insist on these things, so that those who have believed in God may be careful to devote themselves to good works. These things are excellent and profitable for people. 9 But avoid foolish controversies, genealogies, dissensions, and quarrels about the law, for they are unprofitable and worthless. 10 As for a person who stirs up division, after warning him once and then twice, have nothing more to do with him, 11 knowing that such a person is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned.
Thanks for your patience with me.
My email is teamgeoffrey@gmail.com if local Chesapeake folks want to set up time to chat!
January 27th, 2009 at 12:42 pm
Dee
You’re pretty critical of PDI/SGC, and obviously very bitter. I mean you’re harping on issues from the 70’s. Your opinions are very subjective at best. Who knows if you have any proof of your accusations of abuse. In regards to CJ and a high school education, ………I don’t think most of the disciples were that well educated either. I’ve met plenty of people with masters degrees who still were not educated. It sounds like you took a trip to Apex with the soul intention to criticize CJ’s message. Oh you’ll find plenty of people on here to commiserate with you, but your whole premise is just sad.
There are plenty of SGC members walking a Christ centered, victorious, joyful life, without the control, manipulation, and abuse you’ve heaped on us.
January 27th, 2009 at 12:47 pm
Thank you for posting Bob-
I only have one comment. You do understand that verse 10 is referring to heresy, right?
January 27th, 2009 at 12:49 pm
Bob Blackburn
Excellent points my brother.
Thank You!
January 27th, 2009 at 1:00 pm
Mr. Blackburn, I have to give you a great deal of credit: you left your real name and you have a Twitter account! Bravo, sir!
However, I have this against you: that you’ve committed to only posting here once. Paul commanded you to issue two warnings before breaking ties. You can’t very well admonish people with a passage of Scripture that you’re not obeying yourself… that’s hypocrisy! If you want folks here to take you seriously, you’ll just have to issue a second warning.
(You ought to get back on Twitter, BTW. It has a lot of potential for professionals, if they know how to leverage it! The blog’s a cool idea, too.)
January 27th, 2009 at 1:05 pm
I didn’t realize this blog is a debate. I didn’t realize it is a forum for ‘battles’ and ‘teams.’
I thought it was a refuge. Bruised, battered and hurting people to find a refuge and a place to heal.
January 27th, 2009 at 1:09 pm
Stein,
Please stop telling people they’re bitter.
1) You don’t know if they are.
2) If they are, they don’t enjoy it.
January 27th, 2009 at 1:14 pm
This is not fun,
The only truly safe places here are the “your story” and “moving on” threads. They are linked at the top of the page. I censor those threads.
The rest of the blog is the public square. Your point is well taken. I’m not sure I knew what I was getting into back in June when I chose a name and started this place.
January 27th, 2009 at 1:30 pm
A few have said:
“Gene Emerson, when questioned by myself and a few others after the meeting, stated the pastors weren’t responsible to anyone, not to the congregation, himself, or the SGM Apostolic Team. Interesting, huh? Why are we a part of SGM then…to just send them 10% of our tithes and offerings to run that ministry? ”
Isn’t this double speak? How can some of these “apostles” remove other pastors for “lack of gifting” and then come back and say this?
Are these “apostles” not holding these pastors accountable? That sure sounds like what Emerson indicates. So is Gene Emerson saying that if a local pastor didn’t agree with an “apostle” on stepping down etc. the local pastor wouldn’t have to?
One the subject of domestic violence and spouse abuse, I am sure the percentages are low. A number of people have expressed on this blog and the SGM Survivors blog that the culture within SGM tends to either bring out or provide a haven for men that are wired this way.
January 27th, 2009 at 1:34 pm
Where are the “stories” posted? I went to the “my story” page but didn’t find them.
January 27th, 2009 at 1:38 pm
Joel,
Check sgmsurvivors.com
January 27th, 2009 at 1:49 pm
Joel said “I’m not sure the police take reports on emotional abuse – could be wrong about that, but I’ve never heard of that happening. ”
Hi all, first time poster here. In my state, police can certainly get involved even if it is verbal, and not physical, abuse taking place. Police can be called for a case of verbal abuse and then a Protection from Abuse order can be issued, although I’m not sure exactly which office issues this. This is to prevent the abusing spouse from repeating the behavior and, if they do, the abused spouse can call the cops and have the abusing spouse arrested. In some cases, the abusing spouse is made to leave the premises when a PFA is issued, in other cases the spouse can stay in the residence. I guess it’s a case-by-case basis. I don’t know if this entire practice varies from state to state.
Just thought I’d toss in my 2 cents on this in case it’s helpful…
January 27th, 2009 at 1:50 pm
Thanks, Jim,
I just find SM’s use of the word “brother” towards his friend Bob on this blog very divisive.
I have not seen such affection towards his brothers and sisters from the Chesapeake church, but one who is on his “side” in this thread gets called “brother” and gives him props for his “excellent points.”
How does that make the people from the Chesapeake church who are hurt, abused, maligned feel?
Oh yeah, I forgot…feelings are sinful.
January 27th, 2009 at 1:51 pm
Jim,
Do we not have a “my story” section anymore? Duh…I’ve been sending people there…
January 27th, 2009 at 2:00 pm
This Is Not Fun,
If you’d like, meet some of us at “moving on” or “your story” (if it exists), and you can post safely what you think and feel. No one gets to slam you, there. You will find compassion and help without judgement.
Jim,
Why do dissenters still come on here and call us all bitter, just because we don’t agree with their polity? Some of us get angry at the injustice of controlling churches, but anger does not equal bitterness. Just because dissenters come on here to give their opinions doesn’t make them bitter, right? So why must they assume that we are? It is like they come on here, automatically assuming the worst. And where is the courtesy? Okay, getting off my soap box…(you are doing a great job, Jim. This is not meant as a criticism towards you, my BROTHER).
ThisIsNotFun – you are right – we are all related in the Lord. SGM mentality can sometimes see themselves as the only Christians around…
January 27th, 2009 at 2:16 pm
“This is not fun”:
You said: “I didn’t realize this blog is a debate. I didn’t realize it is a forum for ‘battles’ and ‘teams.’ I thought it was a refuge. Bruised, battered and hurting people to find a refuge and a place to heal.”
{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{ “TINF” }}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}} <—– hugs
You don’t have to get caught up in all that, just pass over the posts that you need to. It gets better, it really does. Even a few months ago, I was having a very hard time reading posts from people who didn’t understand our heart for our brothers and sisters who have left PDI/SGM and for those who are still there. Now, I am able to respond to some, but the others I just let go. Someone who is further on than me and stronger is usually able to “speak the truth in love” to those who don’t understand or want to accuse.
January 27th, 2009 at 2:17 pm
Canary,
We do-you get there from the tab on the top of the page. There are not a ton of stories there, as a lot of our crowd have already posted on survivors. I think that’s probably the best place for people to go, if they really want to see carnage.
Regarding bitterness, it’s just the SGM knee-jerk unholy trinity.
Gossip, slander, you’re bitter.
Honestly-does anyone think they will pop on a blog and start caring for the soul of a stranger by throwing this stuff around?
I have no reason to think they have bad intentions, but I think a little common sense might help.
January 27th, 2009 at 2:39 pm
Dear Bob,
I do agree with most of what you say, but if you could spare me a moment to voice another side.
Why would we set ourselves up by using our real names? You obviously have no fear of doing so, and that’s fine, you are siding with the pastors. But there are plenty of reasons to be cautious… do the “3″ really deserve the treatment that they are being given for speaking up? Should they be disciplined by removing them as cgl’s for being right? I have experienced calling and sending emails and not being responded to in a timely manner or not at all! So I can completely understand why they gave these men 3 days. btw Your good friend on here isn’t even using his real name.
Now that there is a plan lets forgive and move on. Really! I can and do forgive but that doesn’t mean that I agree with them staying on as pastors who should be above reproach. You expect me to be able to move on… why should I change churches? It seems to me that was what the “3″ where told as well… they were free to move on. What if they had? Then this horrible interpretation of scripture would have continued and lives would have continued to be hurt. As a member of a SGC church you’re telling me that I ultimately have no voice … well here on this site I have a voice. I post here because I know that many eyes are watching, this is a way to get the truth out about what the Bible says about “above reproach”. If it weren’t for this site most of us wouldn’t even know Ester’s story or the “3″ couples side of things. I would of been afraid to ask them because had I not yet been set free from the misuse of the phrase taking up someone’s offense or gossip… to know what happened and the wrong that my pastor committed is NOT gossip. I have tried to choose my words wisely and I have not slandered anyone, especially the pastors that I do love. I love my children too but to allow them to continue in their sin would be wrong. What sort of “church discipline” will these pastors incur? How can I trust that they will not error this way again? It seems to me that their should be a checks and balance system… and the church members should be involved in some way. I don’t know how that would look, but I don’t believe that asking this is the same as asking someone to rewrite the Bible.
January 27th, 2009 at 3:49 pm
Yes, accusing Dee of “Being bitter,” is SGM code for, “She’s nothing but a bitter *woman* so we can dismiss her thoughts.”
Very condescending.
Right up there with slander and gossip SGM newspeak.
And we’re all brothers and sisters in Christ, so…….
January 27th, 2009 at 4:18 pm
YAWNNNNNNN! Be careful not to impute motivation for comments. You don’t know me and I can well assure you that you are heading down the wrong road. I am not and never shall be part of a SGM church. However, I saw one getting ready to join the gang. I got out prior to being hurt and am a member of a lovely evangelical Anglican church.
Why the yawn? Because the “leadership” (ship of fools if you ask me) has a list of words you call the sinner who dares asks a leader ( who somehow has avoided indwelling sin in his own life) a question. This technique then puts the bringer of the concern on the defensive. I actually think they publish a list of words to use. It may be part of the curriculum of the ultra secret Pastors College. The words include: bitter, hostile, gossip, arrogant, distrustful ,etc.).
Now, the playbook is out in the open. And because of the stupidity of those in charge, the old playbook continues. Unfortunately, it is not effective once it is disclosed. So it is a real yawner. I would love it if one of you supposed leader types would think up a new way to put me off guard. At least if would make it interesting.
AS for ol CJ and his education, I stand by my words. Let’s see, the disciples were mentored by Jesus, the Creator of the Universe. CJ and his buddies made up their own playbook in the 1970s. I hardly think Larry T was as gifted as our Lord!! Nope, he lacks the wisdom of a seminary degree and it shows in his long term ministry.
History is very important. Those who do not learn from their mistakes are doomed to repeat them. And methinks I see repetition in SGM.
January 27th, 2009 at 4:21 pm
Bob,
Have you read “Noel’s Story”?
http://www.sgmsurvivors.com/?p=276
January 27th, 2009 at 4:42 pm
Dee, I agree with you about “history.”
I saw this stuff in the 70’s, as well, and I am very familiar with the Gothardites. I’ve been amazed that folks in SGM can’t see the similarities. I recognized that SGM was just a remnant of the ol’ “shepherding and Gothardite” gang. Maybe it’s because most SGM families are younger (forty-something or younger) or didn’t grow up in Christian families where they would have been exposed to some of this stuff.
January 27th, 2009 at 4:45 pm
This is not fun you are reading way more into the ‘brother’ comment I made to Bob Blackburn. The fact is I consider everyone on here is my ‘brother’ or ’sister’ in Christ, Even you DB. Having said that, I notice that Jim and others will give fellow bloggers cudos for comments they have made, just because they agree with them. I really don’t have a problem with that. But the one time I do it, “bam” I’m devisive?
DB……..I didn’t use ‘bitter’ in a slanderous way, sorry you took it that way, it’s simply a state of mind. It’s not ‘code’ for anything, it was just the tone of her blog. I respect those who feel they had to leave SGM, and are praying for us who are staying, but sometimes it sounds like you’re still there, and can’t get out. It dosent sound like you’re completly free.
January 27th, 2009 at 4:50 pm
Dee – I love your posts. You nail the issues.
I am SO frustrated reading about this meeting – from inviting children (so the real issues cannot possibly be discussed) to not allowing an open mic (isn’t “fear of man” a favorite SGM sin?) to CJ not showing up (way to take ownership, you counterfeit “apostle” – the real Apostles DID take ownership and had the scars to prove it) to all the rest of the boat load of garbage.
Can’t say I’m surprised. I’m sure the SGM leadership is counting the days until this issue is successfully swept under the rug and no longer on anyone’s radar so that they can get back to playing church, wielding their man-given authority with impunity, forgetting their repentant promises, and harming more sheep who refuse to bow to their unholy throne.
January 27th, 2009 at 5:05 pm
Remnant,
Those days are over for SGM. We had 24,000 page views yesterday. Add that to survivors’ stats, along with the other blogs.
That cat is out of the bag.
January 27th, 2009 at 5:09 pm
Stein,
I am not the only one that has noticed an asymmetrical use of the word, “bitter,” and I am not the only one that has taken issue with the way the word is being used. In all fairness, YOU are not the person misappropriating the word, “bitter.”
I, too, am praying for all involved. I have been healed of the harm done to my family and me and, in an odd sense, I am thankful for the experience because we may have never left on our own, for one, and, for two, I am much more sensitive to what others are going through because of my experiences. Stein, you have nothing to apologize for, I applaud those with your views who come over here and discuss the issues at hand politely. I count all believing Christians as my brothers and sisters, not just the ones that agree with me, that’s all. Now, if someone could help me with Calc, I would reward them with homemade chilli.
January 27th, 2009 at 5:18 pm
24,000 page views! That’s incredible.
January 27th, 2009 at 5:25 pm
The number of views is great.
No longer can SGM do things like that have done in the past without at least some of their actions being scrutinized.
I have not doubt that had there not been a blog monitoring the group’s actions, SGM’s leaderships actions would have been different as in much worse.
January 27th, 2009 at 5:28 pm
24 THOUSAND in ONE DAY?
You are right, Jim, SGM people seem to be disobeying “apostolic” edicts. Which means, the “apostles” have lost their iron grip.
I’m sure their egos must be a bit bruised after reading that stat.
January 27th, 2009 at 5:29 pm
Stein and Bob, I can genuinely say that I am not bitter and also that I have reconciled with my offenders (for lack of a better word — they did nothing to offend me personally. I chose to leave because I disagree with their interpretation of Scripture and unbalanced emphasis on indwelling sin at the expense of many other facets of our glorious Gospel).
Because we are compelled by God to remove the stumbling block from out of the way of His people, we must speak out against injustice wherever we see it. Scott and Connie and the others did not know about this blog at first. They only knew that their sister was in trouble and were stirred to act on her behalf. I don’t know why anyone is bothering to write all these posts about whether or not it was biblical of them to defend Esther. To me, that’s a no-brainer. The real question now should be how can we fix the system and spare others future harm. Well, there’s also the question of Esther’s family and their needs, but I tend to think they will be well cared for elsewhere.
I would not limit God. He can restore ANYTHING! I never dreamed after we left that I would end up living in the same city as my former pastor (John) and be reconciled to his wife (like I said, nothing specific was done to me, but the disfellowshipping hurt nonetheless). Only God in His goodness and mercy could have made that happen. And both of us had to come with ready hearts. When we prayed on the phone together, we both cried. I consider her my dear sister in the Lord. The same thing happened when I reconciled with my former Care Group Leader’s wife. If you are too wounded and frightened right now to reconcile, God does not require it of you. For me, it happened more than ten years after the fact. But be open to the possibility. I would hate for these very real and desperately painful wounds to cause you to close down and stop being willing to extend love toward your oppressors. It’s the hardest kind of love, but commanded by Jesus Himself. To love your enemies.
Back to Stein and Bob B. I don’t know you, but I think you may just be wired differently than most of us here. If you’ll notice, within the ranks of your churches there are very few artists, poets, philosophers (meaning deep thinkers who are dreamy-eyed and emotional). That’s because these sensitive types of people are the sheep that are getting nosed outside the flock. But God, in His brilliance, formed ALL types of personalities. The diversity is absolutely beautiful! Within the body of Christ, there are people with varying needs and varying capacities for criticism. Many men relish it. “Lay it on me!” they say. They repent and are done with it. They go off and smoke a cigar or sip a homemade brew. But there are others who wilt at the mere prospect of an accountability session. The Bible calls us to care for the weaker brother and not to offend him, to strengthen feeble knees, not bowl the weak over. I think you may not understand because you’re not wired to. And that’s fine. But please consider the facts of the situation. Consider that these churches have a tendency to be unbalanced, that authoritarian church structure is not anything like what Jesus had in mind when He washed His disciples’ feet and told them to go and do likewise or that whoever wants to be great in God’s kingdom must learn to be a servant. There are real issues, serious ones that you guys are sweeping under the rug because you dislike the tone of the messengers. Please give them serious thought. There are at least seven stories of abuse of one kind or another. I know of two child molestation cases — Noel’s and another one. Esther’s and another spousal abuse case. Several adultery issues in which the wife underwent church discipline along with the husband “because they are one.” I really don’t get that one.
I can only come to the conclusion that this denomination is way more broken than I thought when I left. But the good news is that when these things are exposed, Satan loses his foothold. When the light is shone, the darkness can’t hide. That’s why I love this blog, warts and all. It provides accountability and reassurance that our inner suspicions were correct and leads us to pray.
Would my time be better spent serving at my local church rather than typing in my strong reservations about SGM here? I don’t know. That’s an interesting question. Maybe someone else should answer it for me. If I’ve helped ANYONE see more clearly and come to know their loving God more fully, I consider it time well spent.
January 27th, 2009 at 5:42 pm
freedom Fighter,
I can answer that last question for you. You have written some things here that have helped me. Many others have as well.
A big part of the problem of leaving a really difficult church situation is the loneliness you go through because of relationships that have been lost. It takes time to rebuild new ones and it takes longer because it’s hard to learn to trust again, especially when you’ve been hurt by those you thought knew and loved you. I am still in the midst of that.
The other thing is trying to sort out everything that happened. We have found a pastor at the church we are visiting who is a wise and compassionate man and he has been truly helpful. However, as I said it takes time to rebuild relationships and I can’t take up his time every day. It helps me tremendously to check in here and see what is written.
There is also the depth of empathy of those who know what I’m talking about because they’ve walked that road as well.
In time, perhaps God will bring (or may have brought already to some) face to face relationships in which we can be healed or in which we will be able to offer help. Until that time, this place and Survivors are His providence to both bring things to light and to let us know that we are not alone.
So I say a big THANK YOU to you and to all here who helped me with their words of kindness and care and to Jim and Carole for providing this place!
January 27th, 2009 at 5:43 pm
Almost an Ex sgm-er shared that the book on SGC church polity was on display at the meeting on the back table, and that everyone was offered a free copy upon leaving. (See post #191)
I probably missed reading the explanation for this. Was it because they had made changes to the church polity and wanted everyone to have the new version of it?
January 27th, 2009 at 5:44 pm
Wanda, thank you so much for that link — http://church-discipline.blogs…..se-of.html
I had no idea these were techniques. I’m even more alarmed now, and worried about my friends who remain. And about Stein and BY and Billy and others. I will be praying fervently about all this.
Here is a quote from the comments section of the link you sent:
I appreciate that SGM is nowhere near perfect (is any church) but from reading this article, I can also detect a sense of hatred at them? Is it that they practice the Biblical concept of church discipline or that (gasp) they are Calvinists?
October 11, 2008 5:31 AM CD-Host said…
Hello anonymous –
If you wouldn’t mind, would you sign the bottom of your posts with some sort of a handle to separate your anonymous comments from others?
Lets see do I hate SGM? That’s probably a little strong, it is fair to say that I would strongly recommend against involvement in an SGM church: I don’t like what they do to people in disempowering them. I don’t like what SGM preaches and practices in terms of non biblical lifestyle issues. I think their failure to engage in dialog is indicative of a cult rather than a troubled legitimate church.
Calvinism doesn’t bother me. You won’t find any articles attacking the PCAUSA here and I think my treatment of PCUSA and OPC are very respectful and balanced. Both of the latter also practice church discipline. So no, that’s not the problem.
As for SGM practicing biblical church discipline my other article addresses the fact that they don’t practice biblical church discipline. They violate key structures in church discipline, in particular their process is designed to convict the innocent.
I assume you are active in SGM? I’d love to hear a defense of their unique discipline practices (see other article) I have yet to hear anyone from SGM even present an argument for what purpose it serves other than to allow leadership to convict innocent people of crimes. As for the means of coercion, the de-motivational methods listed in this article, I just think people should be offered the information so they can give informed consent before subjecting themselves to “light brainwashing” social structures.
January 27th, 2009 at 6:10 pm
Wow, so much to wade through here! I’m a first-time commenter at Refuge, long-time participant at Survivor. Sooo most of you already know me, but to those who don’t, Hi! I’m four years out of SGM but otherwise was raised in it for over half my childhood.
Wanda, I wanted to reply to the questions you posed but others before me (Stunned especially – great post!) have already done so quite eloquently so I won’t give it a blow by blow… My simple answer, though, would be this: Brady Bunch.
SGM, from what I saw, attracts people from broken, painful backgrounds by putting on a brilliantly polished facade and holding out promises that “If you do it our way, your life too will be this beautiful and happy!” It’s really a simple, well-tried, but nonetheless quite effective ploy. As you get deeper in and start to realize all the little things that just don’t sit quite right, they are for a time easy to pass over because that promise of a Perfect Happy Life still sits quite prominently before your eyes… All the church says it takes is a little unquestioning compliance. So you do it, thinking they’re just “cultural oddities”, probably harmless. Over time this carefully instituted blinker system becomes so habitual that bigger and more alarming issues can be, and are, easily ignored as well.
Only after years and years of this pattern do most people begin to realize that the same pains and abuses from which SGM promised escape have now just taken a different form. By then it’s often sighed away as being too late, too deeply invested, too comfortable, or not a Big Enough Problem to escape. Many don’t come to this realization at all.
Some ways back, someone mentioned how much help could have been given Esther’s family had the money used on bottled water for the meeting been instead used to help her… It reminded me of a time about a year ago when, since I was back in MD for a funeral, I went back to CLC for a singles meeting to see some of my old friends, catch up, let them know what had been going on in my life.
Instead, after the meeting I became so incensed by the “refreshments” provided that I had to talk to the various pastors and planners in charge. I demanded to know how many hundreds of dollars had been spent to provide SHRIMP PLATTERS and fresh fruit arrangements for the singles meeting!!!! rather than maybe some pop and chips- or nothing at all- so that money could have gone to help the area poor, or to open a soup kitchen in DC, or even to just hand out hot meals to the homeless. That had always been an issue close to my heart and at that time was even moreso as I’d just spent Christmas homeless and looking for a shelter to keep me out of the single digit weather.
I was given placating, bland answers about how they felt the money was best spent on refreshments for the meeting so that it would serve to “draw people in” to “hear the gospel”. Still quite livid, especially given the completely obtuse answer, I wanted to know why they didn’t drive TWENTY MINUTES to actually minister to people out in the field rather than draw them in to the nice church building with its shrimp cocktails and cheese platters and catering. I ranted, I wanted to know if they had any idea how many people could be fed a whole, nourishing meal using the money from just ONE of those fancy dishes.
There’s nothing I hate more than the blank-eyed blinking the pastors give when they’re out of answers and trying to intimidate you into silence.
It was sad… I truly went to that meeting because I wanted to see the old friends I’d grown up with and who hadn’t bothered to talk to me since I left the church. They didn’t know about my homelessness or poverty and didn’t care – but I still cared about them and went out of my way to see how they were doing. Instead my heart broke all over again, through nothing they themselves specifically did or said. I wanted to scream at them, have you all forgotten the series on the “test of prosperity” or was that just lip service in the first place?
…Blah. Of all the many stories I’ve told, that’s one I’ve never shared before with anyone but my two closest friends… The off-hand comment about bottled water made me think of it, and some current financial crises…meh. I’m all worked up now. And rambling. And sigh.
Sorry my story doesn’t have much cohesion or a bow or anything. If I can muster the emotional energy I’ll try to put together something more coherent on my own blog.
January 27th, 2009 at 6:13 pm
Freedom Fighter,
Glad the link about demotivational methods helped. I loved your response to Stein and Bob. You time has definitely been well spent here! This blog serves as a testimony to a watching world as we seek to help one another in Christ.
January 27th, 2009 at 7:01 pm
Freedom Fighter – I don’t write here very often, but I had to respond to this:
“Maybe someone else should answer it for me. If I’ve helped ANYONE see more clearly and come to know their loving God more fully, I consider it time well spent.”
My family left the Chesapeake church several months ago and this is what *I* get from reading your posts: I find HOPE that I might one day be free. Free to totally forgive, free to love again, trust again, love the Lord again like I did pre-SGM, free to be who I am without fear of rejection, just so many things.
Because your posts show your heart filled with love and compassion – while STILL holding to the light of Truth – I find hope that one day I, too, can be free again.
Please know that your words have helped THIS one. I certainly believe your time has been well-spent. Hope is priceless to me. Thank you.
January 27th, 2009 at 7:14 pm
Great points, Misled.
I think one thing that is inherently valuable here and is being opposed is that everyone has the right to tell his or her story with his or her own authentic voice.
Perhaps some have mistaken the clear soprano tones in the feminine voices for shrillness because our voices are muted or completely silenced in patrocentric environments. Some might suppose we’re bitter because we raise our voices and tell our tales but they might not be accustomed to the perspective women lend to this discussion.
For so many years, our voices were not given the respect they deserve but, thanks to this blog, many of us get to contribute our voice to the chorus of others that have had similar but distinct stories to tell.
Freedom Fighter, I appreciate the perspective you lend to this compelling testimony.
January 27th, 2009 at 7:38 pm
Platypus,
Welcome. I was a CLC member from 81-95, so maybe we ran into each other. I share you incredulity at SGM’s lack of concern for the poor. It’s not that they don’t do any benevolence, it just the massive blind spot in priorities. We did a lot of inner city ministry in the 70s and early 80s but that changed forever when CLC members were encouraged to move from places like Hyattsville, College Park, and Silver Spring to the northernmost suburbs. Many of us abandoned work among the homeless, drug addicts, and prostitutes for the “greater good” of corporate unity. Ironocally, HQ in Gaihtersburg will soon be in the middle of a latino community. My friends are scared and looking to move yet further north, missing a golden opportunity to adjust and show the love of Christ among the needy. It’s sad.
January 27th, 2009 at 7:42 pm
“shrill” and “bitter” — definitely manipulative words used in the demotivational management of SGM women!!! Ladies, don’t fall for it!
I love this blog!
January 27th, 2009 at 8:02 pm
Platypus, thank you for sharing your story about confronting the pastors over the shrimp platters (give me a second to go vomit) after your expereince with trying to find shelter from single digit cold. I kno that could not have been easy to share. it is both a telling and a touching story. How can we as a church be so blind? How can we not see? THIS is why we need leaders, to organize us to serve the hurting, the hungry , the cold. Not to control the minutia of our lives but to bring us together to be the hands and feet of God. How sad that a church in one of the most wealthy areas waste the great wealth God has lavished upon them. (Besides what kind of an @#$%^&* would be impressed by a church that serves shrimp? If I were church shopping or not all that interested in the gospel, seeing that kind of disgusting yuppie lifestyle would send me right to the doors. If a shrimp platter really does bring people in, the church DESERVES the kind of people they will be filling their pews with.
So glad you’re the kind of person that stands upfor the cold lost and hungry. I pray I become mroe like you.
January 27th, 2009 at 8:04 pm
Amazing comments and sudden attack for an objective and clear observation (no symantic arguement, and no ad hominen puhleeze – that reminds me of an old Fido.net bbs, HolySmoke). If I’m wrong, then I can be wrong, I’m certainly willing to be shown that with truth and facts. I’ve read most of the SGMRefuge messages regarding SGCC, and therein lies the data points to come to an anlalytical conclusion as I did (note: don’t hear what is not said, don’t consider my comment an accusation to someone who has real, sincere hurts, that intent was not expressed (e.g. with the tragedy with Noel)).
A good read, even a skimming, of Scot’s email shows more care and concern for the Body of Christ and His churches than I’ve seen expressed by any of the regulars on this blog. He definitely showed more love, objective reason, and expressive desire to state the issues and his position; he also stood by his position. Good job Scott! May the Lord bless you as you and your family find a new church home, I hope it’s a real blessing for you guys.
My earlier msg, not bashing, just observation; my comment did not have to be taken by “everyone,” only those to whom it applied. But so many don’t think before they write, so many write from their emotion and forget that sin can even lurk in our hurts, it can lurk in our actions for others, etc. I hope that mine do not. As for this blog, so much careless speech as to the motives and intents of others. Not to mention expressed doubt, litterally, along with “I’m praying for them.” Don’t pray in doubt dear friends, especially for your brothers and sisters (yes, we’re family) in SGM churches, if you cannot have real faith that God will answer your prayers. Find a place of faith for change and pray to the Lord, eyes fixed firmly on Jesus, expectant to what HE will do.
At last, I didn’t care for the reason for cutting the formal meeting short, but I will respect the decision to keep it for a certain time period. That’s done in many contexts, coorporations and governement. No reason why it couldn’t be done in this context. This is not “blindness” nor being “asleep.” The Lord says to “watch and pray,” many are doing just that. In Christ, we (the body of Christ) don’t worship our churches, we don’t worship our own plans, but we worship God, anything else is idolatry. Keep your eyes fixed firmly on the Lord, His leading, whether you stay or leave a SGM church. You will need to be in faith for either. There are many great churches, there are many poor churches. You will not agree with all the polity (of even the great churches), and consder that the church you find, will indeed have issues, you will also need to pray for those brothers and sisters in faith. Hopefully none of the issues like we’ve seen described here or with Chris’ will be repeated anywhere!
I’m in faith, in God to lead and guide all his children, those that stay, those that go, and those who have never been part of SGM. I pray that He will heal the brokenhearted, provide deliverance to the captives, and recover sight to the blind, and set at liberty them that are bruised. {paraphrased}. I hope that you all will find faith in God’s redeeming power wherever you are at to pray for any brother and sister.
See you in heaven!
January 27th, 2009 at 8:12 pm
INC,
I’m SO glad you’re here with us!! {{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}]
January 27th, 2009 at 8:14 pm
Platy,
shrimp???? shrimp????
We never got no shrimp. >:/
sheesh!
ps. glad to see ya here!
January 27th, 2009 at 8:21 pm
Wanda, you crack me up! Glad you are here!!
.
.
.
.
.
….hmmmmmmmmm, I have 3 “glad” posts in a row….hey Jim, where’s that red-faced embarrassed emoticon??
January 27th, 2009 at 8:33 pm
Thanks for letting me know I helped give you hope, Misled! And thank you to everyone else, too. I had to run out of the house after I wrote that and the whole time I worried that it sounded like I was fishing for a compliment but there was nothing I could do cuz I was not home to post anything else about it! I didn’t mean it to sound that way.
I’m still really confused about who’s who. Do I know you, Misled?
God bless you all!!!
Megan
January 27th, 2009 at 8:37 pm
Greg – It’s certainly possible! It’s more likely you met/knew my parents, though… We started attending in 94 and if you left in 95 the oldest I could have been is nine. ^.^
Stunned – SGMs attitude toward “ministry” always infuriated me. The most “ministry” I can remember doing was free car washes or handing out invitations to church (not even gospel tracts! Just church invites!) at Metro stations. As a young teen I remember being reprimanded for volunteering in a local soup kitchen because I wasn’t “actively sharing the gospel” by just helping feed people.
I didn’t at that time know about Maslow’s hierarchy of needs but even common sense told me that people couldn’t be concentrating on their spiritual survival if they were too busy trying to physically survive. I know from personal experience that “Your spiritual health is more important!” means NOTHING when you are literally starving. I worked as a waitress for a number of years and remember a friend receiving a tract instead of a tip… You could see the hopelessness on her face as she walked back onto the line, brandishing it. “Can someone please call Jesus and tell him I don’t have groceries and I might get evicted?”
I HATED the definite implications that people in poverty either did it to themselves through immoral behavior, or were irresponsible with funds, or just lazily decided to not work their way up. It made me even more frustrated to have these messages DIRECTED AT ME after facing all this poverty once I was kicked out. I know now and knew then that I work my @$$ off to make ends meet, that I forego food to make sure I keep a roof over my head. There have been several times in the past few months that were it not for friends coming together to help me out I WOULD have been evicted.
Sometimes that’s just the way it goes, and let me tell you, serving shrimp after meetings does NOT impress me or in any way act to draw me to the church. Especially when you do things like that AND tell me I’m in this because I did it to myself.
January 27th, 2009 at 8:42 pm
Jim:
was Peter “above reproach?” Paul didn’t think so. Was he allowed to repent?
what proof did Paul have that he would not do what he did again, or better yet, the gentile believers?
Yes, this is one incident, but were there others? We don’t know, it’s not recorded.
Please point these folks who want to leave SGCC to a church with a pastoral staff and a polity they can accept; one that has pastors who have not done something terribly wrong. You will do a great service to them.
January 27th, 2009 at 8:45 pm
Thanks, Platypus, now I feel OLD (sigh – 9 yo in 1995 – jk jk) and sorry. Folks living comfortable upper middle-class lives have NO idea what it can be like–I regularly encounter this with my students here in comfy MoCo Maryland. However, this mindset is changing as more and more families deal with our economic crisis.
January 27th, 2009 at 8:56 pm
Food,
Were those serious questions?
January 27th, 2009 at 8:57 pm
Be careful dear brothers and sisters, today’s post in the PILOT. Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walks about, seeking whom he may devour: (1 Peter 5:8)
http://hamptonroads.com/2009/0.....ement-case
VIRGINIA BEACH
A pastor accused of taking more than $100,000 from his former church faces up to 30 years’ imprisonment after pleading guilty in Virginia Beach Circuit Court today.
Kenneth L. Montgomery, 49, who once led Hilltop Community Church on First Colonial Road, pleaded guilty to grand larceny and obtaining money or property by false pretenses. Another charge of embezzlement was dropped.
January 27th, 2009 at 8:57 pm
Ellie,
Thanks for your words and your hugs!
{ { { { { { { { { { { { Ellie } } } } } } } } } } }
January 27th, 2009 at 8:58 pm
real questions Jim.
thanks for asking.
January 27th, 2009 at 9:00 pm
Yes, FFThoughtAKAPinhead, to me it’s not about whether these pastors were above reproach, and it’s not about Sovereign Grace Chesapeake. There are deeper issues at stake. And they’re deeper than mere polity, too. Heart issues are at the core of all this (lack of true empathy and compassion?) and also (AND THIS IS HUGE!) deception. Satan is a roaring lion on the prowl, seeking who he may devour. We are going to have to be vigilant over our own souls and those of our children, rightly dividing the word of truth, searching the Scriptures for ourselves with no agendas or biases toward Reformed doctrine or Arminianism or Anglicanism or whatever. Just the pure milk and meat of the Gospel. And leaning hard on Him for everything.
It feels to me like Satan has been working overtime lately. But I still believe there is a way out. It’s just that only God knows what it is at this point in time. I’ve been praying about it, and I keep seeing this picture of a foundation of a house that is wobbling but not falling down. I don’t know if God wants it to fall or if He wants to shore it up. But right now it’s wobbly, and that can’t be good. I think I’ll just pray for His perfect plan to be fulfilled!
January 27th, 2009 at 9:00 pm
Wow-
You do understand that Peter was not regenerate until after the resurrection, right?
January 27th, 2009 at 9:06 pm
yup
January 27th, 2009 at 9:06 pm
Hi Everyone,
I was curious to know if the polity book was made available at the end of the meeting for everyone to get a copy of because they had made revisions to it (based on the problems that had occured), does anyone know? You guys that were at the meeting, is that why they had copies for everyone? I’m guessing that’s why (maybe that would be the obvious reason), but if not, it raises all kinds of other questions!
Thanks for letting me know when you get a chance
January 27th, 2009 at 9:08 pm
Food for Thought, I actually can point people to a church with pastors who have not done something terribly wrong, and I’ll even worship there with you on Sunday if you’d like cuz I’ll be in Chesapeake! Take I-64 over the bridge to George Washington Hwy (Deep Creek exit) and join me at the Chesapeake Vineyard Christian Fellowship at 10 am. All are invited. : )
Despite what you may think, my heart is FOR you and your family(ies) and all of my old friends that I miss so terribly much!
January 27th, 2009 at 9:08 pm
Then what are you referring to, Food, in regards to Peter?
January 27th, 2009 at 9:14 pm
Gal 2:11-14 Notwithstanding Peter’s character, yet, when Paul saw him acting so as to hurt the truth of the gospel and the peace of the church, he was not afraid to reprove him. When he saw that Peter and the others did not live up to that principle which the gospel taught, and which they professed, namely, That by the death of Christ the partition wall between Jew and Gentile was taken down, and the observance of the law of Moses was no longer in force; as Peter’s offense was public, he publicly reproved him. There is a very great difference between the prudence of St. Paul, who bore with, and used for a time, the ceremonies of the law as not sinful, and the timid conduct of St. Peter, who, by withdrawing from the Gentiles, led others to think that these ceremonies were necessary. (MHCC)
January 27th, 2009 at 9:18 pm
Well done, food. You played dumb to show that you’re smart.
Very well done.
January 27th, 2009 at 9:18 pm
Platypus,
I am so sorry to hear about your difficulties. I may know you and I probably do know some of your friends. When people refuse to help the poor because they believe the poor are to blame for their own poverty, I think of Jesus. He helped the woman at the well and others who had destroyed their lives with sin. We should, too.
I also talked to pastors at CLC about lavish spending on salaries and non-essentials while neglecting the poor and unreached people. They did not take my suggestions, so I just gave separately on my own.
January 27th, 2009 at 9:25 pm
Hi Claireon! No the book was the same ole, same ole. I was laughing when I read your first post about that because I thought you were kidding!!! LOL!!!!! I thought you were being funny, really!
January 27th, 2009 at 9:35 pm
Jim, not sure what you mean; are you insulting me? I don’t think I played dumb.
Also, I had a very serious admonition for you; I really meant it.
I’ll repeat:
Please point these folks who want to leave SGCC to a church with a pastoral staff and a polity they can accept; one that has pastors who have not done something terribly wrong. You will do a great service to them.
This was a very serious admonition.
January 27th, 2009 at 9:41 pm
Food,
I was not insulting you-I thought you were attempting to get me to say that Peter was above reproach, so you could whip out the Paul/Peter confrontation you used above.
I don’t live in Virginia, and have no knowledge of the churches there. I’m confident that the good people of Chesapeake who choose to leave can think for themselves.
January 27th, 2009 at 9:44 pm
By referencing Peter, do you think that the qualifications for the Apostles were the same as qualifications for elders?
Are you aware of the qualifications for the Apostles?
January 27th, 2009 at 9:50 pm
DANG!!!! I emailed someone today and said I thought either Stein or Barbaric was Bobby Blackburn!!!! DAG! Funny, they must know each other or called each other when Bobby posted because Bobby (Bob) was on at 12:28 and Steins first post of the day was 12:42! Tight brothers! Or could they be one in the same? Only God knows…………….
January 27th, 2009 at 9:52 pm
I’m aware that Peter was not above reproach in everything. I’m not defending, just discussing. I’m also not trying to set a “trap.” As Matthew Henry points out, Peter did a serious injustice to the Gospel and The Church (i.e. the body of Christ), especially after he watched His master, our Lord, treat non-Jews (the dogs who obtain scraps from the master’s table), with great Love.
The first question is more rhetorical, the second one for a response. Please ask for clarity without being snarky.
Thanks.
January 27th, 2009 at 9:56 pm
Food,
I’m sorry. I misread you.
January 27th, 2009 at 10:05 pm
thanks. off to other tasks this evening.
January 27th, 2009 at 10:28 pm
Clairon – I was laughing at your post too, because the thought of SGM changing their polity is hilarious! I thought you were joking too. There is honestly no way that will happen. It’s ingrained into the organization. More than that, the leaders honest to goodness believe through their study of scripture that it is the ”biblical” way that SGM should be led. It’s how God designed it. To change it would be to go against scripture and they can’t in their conscience do that. They are sincere men. But sadly sincerely mistaken.
January 27th, 2009 at 10:42 pm
Platypus said, “SGM, from what I saw, attracts people from broken, painful backgrounds by putting on a brilliantly polished facade and holding out promises that “If you do it our way, your life too will be this beautiful and happy!” “
well put, Platypus! I thinnk you hit the nail on the hea.
January 27th, 2009 at 11:11 pm
Platypus said, “I was given placating, bland answers about how they felt the money was best spent on refreshments for the meeting so that it would serve to “draw people in” to “hear the gospel”. Still quite livid, especially given the completely obtuse answer, I wanted to know why they didn’t drive TWENTY MINUTES to actually minister to people out in the field rather than draw them in to the nice church building with its shrimp cocktails and cheese platters and catering.”
But that is not the demographic they are intersted in sharing the gospel with, dontcha know, Dearie. It really wouldn’t fit with their plans. Now do go away and don’t be such a bother. Your shirt may not match the color of the new foyer.
January 27th, 2009 at 11:13 pm
Almost an ex-sgmer~
Thanks for letting me know! To be honest, I really was giving SGM the benefit of the doubt, here. When I read that you said the book of polity was left out on the back table for everyone to pick up on the way out, I thought, “Surely they must have made a revision, and that is why they were making them available. Surely, surely that would be the case.”
I found myself asking, “Was the leadership being helpful in providing the book so that if people had questions, they could easily refer to it? Were they making the book on polity available in case people needed to re-familiarize themselves with how the church was governed, in order to be more informed? In that way the leaders were providing a needful service because of their love, concern, and care for the congregation?” That would be a good thing, right?
Or, had the book on polity been left as a parting gift – a last impression – that you were to take home with you? One would think the pastors wanted their congregation to leave with the impression that they deeply loved and cared for them, right? That they had just re-committed themselves to sacrifically care for their flock, and after having just admitted to gross neglect and abuse, they wanted everyone to rest assured that they would go overboard and work hard to never let something like that happen again? And that they were terribly sorry for having called that private meeting where they told the church that the three couples were enemies? That they had really blown it?
Perhaps the book was made available in an effort to remind everyone on the way out that they really were part of a healthy church because of their polity. Why else would it be there, right? Or was it there to remind everyone of their commitment and responsibility to the church, its leadership and their polity – even though the meeting was about how the pastoral staff had failed in their scriptural obligation to care for the needs of their flock??
So, if in fact its true, and the books were made available to make the membership mindful of church polity and their responsibilities…
Here’s what I think…
Rather then putting the books on some back table in a cowardly manner – the SGM men there that night should have stood at the door as people were exiting and given everyone a slap in the face ALONG with a copy of the church polity. I’m not joking. THAT would have been honest. That would have been truthful.
IF they had done it that way, maybe some of the blinders would have come off. People would honestly have been given a chance to see what they were about and come to. Maybe some of them might have woken up and realized, “Hey, this is a slap in the face! Your the ones that weren’t holding up your end of the bargain, and yet you want to end by emphasizing what it is we are supposed to know and do for your benefit? I thought you worked for us? How about if you demonstrate some repentance before you go pushing polity on us?”
Also, the awakened ones in the crowd would been able to take decisive action, moved in to prevent people from being slapped and further injured, lead them to safety, and then band together to kick some SGM butt.
But maybe I’m wrong. Maybe the books were placed there for everyone to take at the end of the meeting, not as a parting shot and a last impression, but to serve the good people, as a token of their pastoral care and commitment. Because we know that SGM is all about the love. You know – you loving and believing the best about THEM.
January 27th, 2009 at 11:14 pm
Someone else shared a while ago (I think on SGM Survivors) that SGM attracts a lot of people (perhaps due to their Catholic background) that are content with the concept that “our leaders have spoken” and thus not even question what leadership says. They have no problem embracing a system where dictates come down from the top such as a pope.
January 27th, 2009 at 11:34 pm
Platypus wrote, “I worked as a waitress for a number of years and remember a friend receiving a tract instead of a tip… You could see the hopelessness on her face as she walked back onto the line, brandishing it. “Can someone please call Jesus and tell him I don’t have groceries and I might get evicted?”
Total sidenote, but PLEASE Christians, if you EVER go out to eat and pray, say grace or even in any way, shape or form mention Jesus or want to help people to hear what you want to say, do not, I repeat and I am begging you here, DO NOT leave a measly tip! I wonder how many wait staff have been left with a horrible taste in their mouth toward God because of all the insensitve, cheap Christians out there. I have heard countless stories from wait staff who testify that they HATE it when professing Christians come in because they are usually the most demanding and obnoxious people to wait on and they are the worst tippers.
When my friend would go out with her friends from her SGM church, she would often find some reason to return to the table after th egroup had paid and left it, just so she ould add more money to the tip. And she was always by far the poorest person of the group. but she knew what it was like to wait tables and to see people come to hate Christians because of their selfish stinginess. So the poor underemployed single mother ended up paying the tip for the more comfortable people in her group, on a regular basis.
my only comfort is, god sees. God knows. god remembers.
I HATED the definite implications that people in poverty either did it to themselves through immoral behavior, or were irresponsible with funds, or just lazily decided to not work their way up. It made me even more frustrated to have these messages DIRECTED AT ME after facing all this poverty once I was kicked out.
January 27th, 2009 at 11:37 pm
Jim – can I make a prediction of my own here? I’ve been reading here and over at Survivors for quite awhile. I’m very familiar with the structure, doctrines and practices of SGM. Prepare yourself: All of these horrible stories coming out really, really are not going to change SGM. I think mainly what will happen is that SGM churches may lose a ton of members when they begin to see and disagree with how things are done. And this too is in keeping with how SGM does things. If you disagree or cannot follow the leadership it is suggested you join a church where you can agree and follow the leaders. And they do mean this very sincerely and feel it’s in your and their best interests. But essentially, nothing will change from SGM leadership. The reason – what I said in my previous post: “the leaders honest to goodness believe through their study of scripture that it is the “biblical” way.” The leadership structure, the nature of authority/accountability, the husband/wife relationship, the training/disciplining of children, courtship, how to address the sin nature, how to plant churches, what worship looks like, how to arrange the church budget, how to organize church life, how to fulfill the Great Commission, the definition of gossip/slander, the list can go on and on and on. These are just some of the big ones. Since CJ has been President, he has slowly but surely been leading SGM into more and more defined (constricted) doctrines and practices, almost to a pharisaical nature. It changed so much in the decade plus that I was there. It was a different animal when I left. Almost unrecognizable from what I experienced when I first walked through the doors. And I was a full-fledged participator/believer in it all the whole way through ‘til the very end. I’m so sorry to say it, but they really, really, really won’t change. Because they truly are convinced in their conscience that this is the way God designed the local church and your Christian life to be. And to do it differently would be disobeying holy scripture.
I think these blogs are tremendously important. It’s so important for people to share their stories. To shed light on what has been kept in darkness, behind closed counseling and conference room doors. It was important for me to realize how my view of the Christian life and Church had become skewed and these stories helped me to see that. I didn’t realize it until after I had already left. I left over a disagreement on just one doctrinal matter. I agreed with the pastor that I should attend a church where I could be in agreement. But I see more and more how much I need to change to shake off remaining habits and practices that were reiterated every Sunday, every CG meeting, in every interaction I had with other members and leaders. It’s important that Christians turn away from this type of organization. I feel like I’m committing fratricide here! I still have an ever so slight bit of loyalty to those I’ve cared about and admired. I don’t want to hurt them. But these are important things!
If there is a public, mass exodus from SGM churches as a result of things coming into the light, then I think you’ll see CJ’s name and influence in the reformed and publishing community diminish. I think that change will come to the broader Church as a result of his diminished influence. I think SGM as a whole will survive, diminished but unchanged. It will only become one of those movements that people remember as having been brought down in disgrace by flawed doctrines and practices and regulated to a dusty corner not mentioned much by respectable movement leaders. But in those dusty corners there will be small bands of earnest worshippers in half-empty churches still hanging on with full sincerity to CJ’s teachings, believing they are truly following God’s way to the fullest.
Call me a pessimist if you will. I think I’m a realist.
January 28th, 2009 at 12:08 am
sorry, that last paragraph was platypus’
January 28th, 2009 at 4:30 am
“I think these blogs are tremendously important. It’s so important for people to share their stories. To shed light on what has been kept in darkness, behind closed counseling and conference room doors. It was important for me to realize how my view of the Christian life and Church had become skewed and these stories helped me to see that. I didn’t realize it until after I had already left.”
Hi Emmy,
Isn’t it exciting that we have the internet where we can join together on blogs such as these, and our small individual voices can join other small voices, and together the vibration is heard? Some may think their personal experience was real but insignificant, yet combined with all the other experiences of SGM malpractice, a collective voice is heard. And here we can have a conversation about these things. Questions can be asked. Information can be shared. It’s much easier to get after the truth when we are all reporting on what we have seen and heard, and then have the chance to compare notes. And here you don’t need “permission” to talk about SGM. No one needs to be in “leadership” in order to express an opinion or wonder if they have the right to talk. Here we are equals. And it’s amazing how much we all know.
At the bottom of this all is an abuse of power. SGM, throughout the years, learned how to use their size to intimidate and quell dissenting voices. People left one by one, and often their stories were distorted or never heard. I know that happened to me and many others. But now people are coming together and talking, and everyone matters – from Noel’s young daughter and Esther’s kids – to the couples still dealing with the damage of having been in SGM for a long time.
So, while SGM would love to put the kibosh on this – they will eventually be forced to deal with blogs such as these – because this changes everything. People are reading, thinking, and talking. SGM will be loathe to lose all their control, but I think it’s merely a matter of time.
January 28th, 2009 at 6:08 am
Emmy, I second your prediction. Well said.
January 28th, 2009 at 8:30 am
Let’s not forget about what is going on in the Denver church. David B. was involved with some really bad things that put the membership in danger. Yet SS said that David B. is ”retiring”. I’m not buying that for one minute. Very possibly another case where truth is not brought forward but is covered up. Why wouldn’t Dave B. have to go through church discipline like any other church member for his sins? Also, what is the real story behind CD leaving the Denver church and going to Richmond?
January 28th, 2009 at 8:37 am
Claireon,
While we cannot ever really know the motives of the leaders at Chesapeake (there you go folks, disclaimer firmly in place), I would agree with you on your assessment as to why the polity booklet was left laying around. The leaders responded to 5 of the 9 points of error brought by the couples (hurray!), but Gene himself reportedly took a strong stance on the “Biblicalness” of their polity, which was discussed in some of the remaining four errors. Their confidence (from the top down) that their polity is the best and closest to “right” completely stifles any serious examination of its fruit.
Emmy, you’re right. To change polity would be the same as turning away from the “gospel” to them. Anathema!
Food for Thought,
Welcome. Yes, it is good for exiting folks to find more Biblically balanced churches in their areas. But in all sincerity, your comments remind me of how we and others were shown to the door in our SGM experiences. ”We agree to disagree and you must find somewhere you can attend where you trust the leadership.” This is true. Absolutely. However, along with this advice comes this attitude – “You’ve become such a problem by being independent and not submitting to your God-given authority, that we no longer want to deal with you. Shame you couldn’t cut it here, since we are ’doing things right.’ Now you are doomed to inferior Christianity. God may even be opposing you. How sad for you, but God is sovereign. We are released from any spiritual care or concern for you.” These attitudes were communicated LOUDLY, through words and actions, right along with the ”agree to disagree” one. Not saying YOU are doing that, but THEY certainly were, and I believe, still are.
Wounds caused by those attitudes are what Jim and Carole are dealing with here. Sadly, there’s much more to the healing process than pointing them to better churches, though that’s certainly good advice. You will be gratified to know that the vast majority of folks know they need to do that, even if they take awhile off to decompress, and suggestions for churches in certain areas have been given here.
January 28th, 2009 at 8:40 am
Emmy, i am in complete agreement with everything you said. and I am an optimist and an idealist.
stunned
January 28th, 2009 at 9:20 am
Amost an SGC-er
I’m not Bob……and I certainly don’t have his legs
January 28th, 2009 at 9:26 am
Actually Stein, we thought you were someone with the initials of RW.
January 28th, 2009 at 9:29 am
Gracie,
Where you said “Now you are doomed to inferior Christianity.”
You hit the nail right squarely on the head with SGM’s attitude towards other churches.
January 28th, 2009 at 9:31 am
Just Say No – to Kool-Aid:
Where you said, “Also, what is the real story behind CD leaving the Denver church and going to Richmond?”
That’s my question also.
January 28th, 2009 at 6:56 pm
Emmy,
I TOTALLY agree with your prediction.
And you’re absolutely correct with this:
“…“the leaders honest to goodness believe through their study of scripture that it is the “biblical” way.” The leadership structure, the nature of authority/accountability, the husband/wife relationship, the training/disciplining of children, courtship, how to address the sin nature, how to plant churches, what worship looks like, how to arrange the church budget, how to organize church life, how to fulfill the Great Commission, the definition of gossip/slander, the list can go on and on and on.”
And like you, I also think “SGM as a whole will survive, diminished but unchanged.” This was good, as well:
“It will only become one of those movements that people remember as having been brought down in disgrace by flawed doctrines and practices and regulated to a dusty corner not mentioned much by respectable movement leaders. But in those dusty corners there will be small bands of earnest worshippers in half-empty churches still hanging on with full sincerity to CJ’s teachings, believing they are truly following God’s way to the fullest.”
I saw this take place with Bill Gothard’s ministry. To this day there are STILL ”small bands hanging on with full sincerity to Gothard’s teachings.” (I personally believe many of SGM’s roots and distinctives stem from Gothardism.)
So yeah…I’m TOTALLY in agreement with you on this one. Maybe you’re a prophetess.
January 28th, 2009 at 9:19 pm
Gracie;
my goodness, you read a lot into what I said (even with the disclaimer that you are not talking about me, but then you offer your correction).
This is supposedly a “refuge” site, how can any find refuge with all the stuff being bantered about. I merely offered my recommendation to Jim to try and help the particular folks writing in these forms to a sound church. If you are going to be offended by that, I guess I will not write at all.
January 28th, 2009 at 10:32 pm
FFThought, I’ve made several recommendations already, so don’t worry. There are plenty of great churches in Chesapeake. It’s practically a bastion of Christianity because CBN and Operation Blessing are there.
Please forgive us for questioning your sincerity. And if you need refuge, you are most welcome here.
January 28th, 2009 at 11:15 pm
The Gospel is clearly laid out in 1 Cor. Please please take note that Paul clearly does not leave Christ on the Cross.
1 Corinthians 15
1Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. 3For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,
The rest of this chapter talks about the topic of resurrection.
Nowhere is there a doctrine of “indwelling sin” or emphasis on the Cross or “speaking into my life” or or or or or….
Notice that the WHOLE message is of FIRST importance….from the death of Christ to His burial to His rising to life.
Anyway – I feel that those of you SGM Refugees probably know plenty about the death of Christ and the cross and sin and have incorporated these things personally into your Christian walk.
But have you had the opportunity to incorporate the REST of the Gospel message? Have you dwelt on His Resurrection to Life and the significance of that event on your life personally?
Have you spent time in praise and awe at His miraculous rising to life? Do you know, really really know, to the bottom of your Spiritual heart, what consequence that plays within YOU through faith?
If I were to look into your eyes, I would say to you, “Dearly Beloved Child of God, find rest in the Lord’s power over sin, over death, over the grave. Rest. Sit at His feet and allow Him to minister His love and His life into your heart. Hear His heartbeat – He did not stay dead – He did not stay at the Cross. He turned His back on the Cross, set His focus on power over death, and arose to victorious life. It is this Life that He has freely given to you. Do you understand it? Can you embrace it fully?”
January 28th, 2009 at 11:35 pm
Just Say No,
Do you think someone will post the North Denver situations on the blogs? I think it will be helpful.
January 28th, 2009 at 11:46 pm
Greg,
If your ‘real’ name is Greg, I think we know you. And my husband has been trying to find you for some time now.
Could you please email me at justadogluvr AT aol DOT com
Thanks!
January 28th, 2009 at 11:57 pm
Live wire and Kool-aid:
Who is CD?
January 29th, 2009 at 12:01 am
Formersgmer:
Deloglos. He was one of the pastors at the North Denver church till sometime this fall or winter.
January 29th, 2009 at 12:29 am
Hey Food,
Not offended at all, so no worries there! As I said, I really wasn’t saying this was your attitude. Just trying to help you understand why more than new church suggestions are needed here.
You said,
“Please point these folks who want to leave SGCC to a church with a pastoral staff and a polity they can accept; one that has pastors who have not done something terribly wrong. You will do a great service to them. ”
As I said, this quote REMINDED me of the pat answers we received from SGM leadership of “we agree to disagree” and “find somewhere you can trust your leadership.” This response sounds great but is not sufficient, because it does not allow the WHOLE story of SGM abuse to be addressed. For us, it’s more than ”finding a church with a pastoral staff and polity we can accept”; it is confronting and exposing an unbalanced polity that has damaged many dear believers and continues to do so. My correction wasn’t for YOU, it is for SGM leadership. As far as you are concerned, I was just trying to make you more aware of what many of us have faced and why your suggestion might not be greeted with much enthusiasm, though it is good advice and part of the healing process. Like you, I’m not defending, just discussing!
January 29th, 2009 at 8:05 am
Lots of new faces here at The Refuge! Welcome!
Wanda asked some interesting questions in an earlier comment and Kris (over at Survivors) brought those questions to the forefront in her latest post. (SGMSurvivors.com for all of you who haven’t checked out their blog) I posted this comment over there and thought I should re-post here… not because it’s such a wonderful piece of literary genius, but because it does offer a bit of insight into the initial attraction to SGM churches.
1. Why do people join a SGM church in the first place?
One of the comments we heard most often from visitors, and something that attracted me and my family to SGM in the beginning, as well, went a bit like this… “The children are all so well behaved and are as comfortable talking to adults as they are talking to those their own age. Just look at how they look everyone in the eye and greet them!! And look at how helpful they are! They jump when asked to do ANYTHING! :sigh and smile: With a smile on their faces to boot! And just look at how friendly everyone is! My family has already been invited to lunch at so-and-so’s home… that never happened at our previous church! We’ve already been asked to attend a care group this week… and the care group leader invited us to come early and have dinner with them! They want to be our friends!! OH!… and here is the clencher… the pastor and his wife made it a point to seek out my husband and I to welcome us and ask us some questions about our family and our life!… He was genuinely interested in us and said he hopes we come back! :I’msodelightedandfeelsospecialIjustcan’tstandit: I just know we have found a home here and are going to love becoming a part of this (perfect) church! I feel like I have died and gone to heaven!!!”
I hate to break it all of those who have stars in their eyes, but the members of SGM churches are taught to lavish guests with interest and interaction. They “present” themselves very nicely. What the visitor doesn’t see is the tactics used behind the scenes to get the “puppets” to dance to their (leaders) music and do what the leaders want them to do.
So, it may look like you’ve walked into “Pollyanna-ville” but you’ve actually walked into DisneyWorld. (You DO know that Cinderella and Micky Mouse aren’t REALLY a princess and a big mouse, right? They are wearing costumes… they have become who you want them to be so your visit and your memories will be filled with fondness of “the happiest place on earth.”) But the more you attend an SGM church, you will find that the costumes DO come off, and the “tea cup” ride is chipped, and, like what happened to my family the last time we went to DisneyWorld, you get stuck in the “It’s a Small World” boat ride because of mechanical problems, and have to be taken off the boat and led out the back door… have you ever seen “behind the scenes” at Disney? It pretty much dispels the charm and “magic” of the whole “happiest place on earth” experience.
(And, just in case you’re wondering… YES!! I DO have an aversion to that song! And we haven’t been back to DisneyWorld… or an SGM church…)