In the comment section of our last post, “Mommylonglegs” asked this question:
“Jim,
Where in the Bible does it give you the right to bring things to light in a church you don’t even attend?“
I’m not picking on Mommylonglegs. This is a question that a lot of SGMer’s ask. I find it quite interesting that this mentality is used to question the validity of having a blog such as The Refuge, and indicative of SGM’s unique, inward view they have of the Church.
Why should we care about, and bring to light, the atrocities and abuses found within SGM churches? Having first hand knowledge of some of these unbiblical practices, I would think that we would be wrong if we didn’t expose them. Why? Because we are a part of the Body of Christ. When one part of the body is hurting, when there is abuse taking place against fellow Christians at the hands of Christian leaders, would it be right to turn a blind eye and continue on our merry way, unconcerned about our brothers and sisters in the Lord?
When a church system, an organization such as SGM, has major flaws in it’s structure, and that structure is injurious to it’s members, it is our responsibility as God’s people to stand up and cry “foul”! It is our responsibility to stay true to His Word, to protect those in His Kingdom that can’t protect themselves, who, many times, because of the uncommon teaching that takes place within the walls of SGM churches and the teachings of SGM leaders, don’t even know they need protecting.
It’s akin to watching someone else’s child running toward a busy street… do we run after that child to keep him from getting hurt? Or do we just stand and watch as he runs toward that dangerous situation and say, “He’s not my child”, and do nothing to stop him?
I know that when you are involved in anything, in this case, SGM, your focus is very narrow… it’s hard to see the bigger picture. It’s very easy to explain away these stories of wrongdoing by SGM leaders.
First of all, you don’t want to believe these horrendous stories because you love your church, you love your leaders. You don’t want to believe that these atrocities could be happening in your “family of churches”, in many cases right under your noses.
Second, it would be SGM’s strategy to not tell the truth when asked about these situations. From why someone left your church to asking about Esther or Noel, the standard answers from leaders is to either blame it on “difference in doctrinal issues and they would find a better “fit” somewhere else”, to “they are not being completely honest in their account” and many other “reasons” in between. And it’s so easy to believe these “reasons” because you want to believe them. And, if you do pursue in your questioning, you are charged with gossip and slander. (That is a tactic used to shut you up.)
Believe it or not, The Refuge is in existence for not only those who have been hurt already by SGM and it’s heavy handed authoritarian methods, but for you current SGMer’s, as well.
Don’t you want to know the truth? Or is it easier to accept what you are told and stay blind to what is really going on? Don’t you want to be like Christ and be a part of a church body that is pursuing Him and His Truth? Don’t you want humble leaders that aren’t afraid to look at what they are believing and teaching and change, if necessary? Don’t you want leaders that aren’t afraid to admit when they blow it and have sinned against one of their own? Don’t you want leaders who repent because they have been convicted by The Holy Spirit, and not only after they have been confronted or exposed by a blog? Or are you content to sit and be quiet while the devastation goes on around you? Do you care more about pleasing your leaders than caring for your brothers and sisters?
Why do you continue to protect these men and their unbiblical ways? Why do you continue to defend these practices that are so injurious to God’s people? Why do you choose to overlook and gloss over these very real wounds in your brothers and your sisters that have been inflicted by the very leaders you follow?
I believe there are no perfect churches and no perfect pastors. However, when the standard operating procedure of churches and pastors result in this kind of damage to the church body, it’s time to take a good, long look at the SOP and CHANGE IT! Why do these leaders keep doing the same things over and over again and achieving the same destructive results? I have heard somewhere that that is the definition of insanity.
I don’t profess to know their hearts… but it seems to me that humble leaders would want to do the right thing, the biblical thing, the way Christ did when He walked on this earth. And SGM leaders, I’m sad to say, are not doing that.
So, back to Mommylonglegs original question… “Where in the Bible does it give you the right to bring things to light in a church you don’t even attend?”
Hebrews 13:3
My question to you (and other SGMer’s who have asked this question) is who else will bring them to light? You? Although some of your eyes have been opened, there are many more of you that refuse to see. It’s sad that those of us in the bigger body of believers are fighting for you and your beloved church more than you are yourselves.
I pray for each and every one of you, that you would be emboldened by His Truth, that you would stand up for what is right, what is true, that you would WANT to see change in your organization, that you would WANT to fight for reform in SGM, and in your SGM church in particular.
January 23rd, 2009 at 12:39 pm
Carole,
Very well said. Thank you for your boldness in putting the truth out there.
January 23rd, 2009 at 12:55 pm
“It’s akin to watching someone else’s child running toward a busy street… do we run after that child to keep him from getting hurt? Or do we just stand and watch as he runs toward that dangerous situation and say, “He’s not my child”, and do nothing to stop him?”
Excellent points my friend.
January 23rd, 2009 at 1:07 pm
Edmund Burke’s line comes to mind, “All it takes for evil to triumph is for good men (people) to do nothing.” Keep up the good work @ The Refuge.
January 23rd, 2009 at 1:14 pm
Carole,
Yeah! Excellent post. Great verses you listed, love the last one – Hebrews 13:3
“Remember those who are in prison, as though in prison with them, and those who are mistreated, since you also are in the body.”
January 23rd, 2009 at 1:19 pm
Carole,
Thank you and Jim for being on the front lines. The time and thought you put into the post evident in your words as is your heart.
January 23rd, 2009 at 1:33 pm
Carole and Jim, if I may be so bold as to insinuate that these churches have some startling resemblances to cults (and I don’t say that flippantly but with grave concern), I want to also point out that the folks in the pew who we’re fighting for and who are not fighting themselves have been blinded. They don’t even know they NEED to fight this. I think THAT, more than anything else, is why we’re all so agitated here. We want to rescue those who don’t see that they need to be rescued. Even as they try to show us our error, we see the deception in their choice of words and phrases. It’s heartbreaking. And humbling. And leads me straight to my knees.
January 23rd, 2009 at 2:16 pm
I also think that even if a problem, or in this case a deeply grievous and harmful handling of a situation, is brought up in a way someone thinks is “wrong”, the first thought should be how can this be made right, rather than a defensive reaction that it wasn’t brought up correctly. That’s where the focus should be.
A second step would be to think how can we improve communication and openness of give and take.
Leave the defensiveness behind.
January 23rd, 2009 at 5:08 pm
After having many discussions with my friends and hearing a lot of the same answers we get on here, I’ve begun to realize something…the reason they get so defensive about what is said is because SGM is their identity. For the longest time I couldn’t figure out why if I didn’t agree with something in SG and shared it (without being negative) they got so mad. Well now it makes sense…because this is where their identity is and saying anything negative about it, means that I am basically attacking them.
FF I do agree with you that in many ways SGM seems like a cult. I’m not that old but have heard from my mother and have recently had to read about cults.
January 23rd, 2009 at 6:11 pm
Carole,
Thank you for the kind and gracious post above. I appreciate your concern for the “body of Christ” Thank you Jim.
I have many assets left in SGM, although I am not there. (Praise the Lord) Living, breathing, growing, confused, hurting and neglected assets there, oh and not just in one location.
I appreciate your help. Charlie
January 23rd, 2009 at 7:07 pm
Here is another scripture that would support what we do:
Eph 5:11-14
11 And do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them; 12 for it is disgraceful even to speak of the things which are done by them in secret. 13 But all things become visible when they are exposed by the light, for everything that becomes visible is light.
NASB
January 23rd, 2009 at 7:08 pm
At the same time, I want to mention that there are plenty of people with their minds renewed day by day, totally sold out to Jesus and attending these churches without being marred by the various doctrinal excesses. I hate that I made a blanket assessment without saying that. But it’s hard not to be affected.
I hope people are able to see that our hearts are FOR them and we are in no way trying to bring division to the body of Christ by stepping in and bringing correction to an entire denomination.
January 23rd, 2009 at 7:43 pm
My favorite topic!!! Thanks so much, you guys! Spot on!
January 23rd, 2009 at 8:34 pm
I had to run out for a while after I posted this, and came back to see all of these comments!
Thanks, everyone, for your encouragement and your most excellent comments and added insight into this topic. You make it such a joy to serve alongside you all!
January 23rd, 2009 at 10:19 pm
Great, great post, Carole! Thank you!
In reading your words, I think of this song:
Rescue the Prisoner
See the insolent man standing on the street
Hear the thundering sound of rebellious feet
Demanding rights
Defending wrong
It can bring the righteous blood to boil
And we ask, “Oh Lord, how long?
Oh Lord, how long?”
This is not the enemy
Flesh and blood have been deceived
When we move beyond the anger
We will see
We’ve got to rescue the prisoner
Rescue the prisoner
Prisoner of war
That’s what He came here for
Rescue the prisoner
Rescue the prisoner
In the beautiful land, hear the rivers cry
See the innocent ones learning well a lie
“There is no right
There is no wrong”
It can almost make your blood run cold
And we pray, “Lord, make us strong
Lord, make us strong”
This is not the enemy
Jesus died to make them free
Love will reach behind the danger
Come with me
We’ve got to rescue the prisoner
Rescue the prisoner
Prisoner of war
That’s what He came here for
Rescue the prisoner
Rescue the prisoner
We are called to be a light
That even blinded eyes can see
To break the chains
To bind the wounds
And to proclaim the captive free
Rescue the prisoner
Rescue the prisoner
Pray for the prisoner
Rescue the prisoner
Rescue the prisoner
Pray for the prisoner
Rescue the prisoner
——————————
by Twila Paris
January 24th, 2009 at 12:08 am
TWILA! I’m singing along in my head.
January 24th, 2009 at 1:09 am
Hi folks,
I found this blog (via stumbling onto the Survivor site). I have never been part of the SGM churches, however I have had major concern for SGM when I read their doctrinal statement.
My husband and I, along with two other families, left our church (we were active members for 16 years, and one of the couples for 21 years) because of doctrinal issues and shepherding issues. I’m astonished to find the description of the leadership and congregational responses (or non-responses—ostrich behavior, if you will) you guys have run into. Many are similar to the ones we received as well .Your questions to the SGMers are our very questions to those at our old church.
It is amazing how people think its unbiblical to question those in leadership (especially if they have a PhD behid their name) and I call this the Magisterium Mentality. I recognize the fear of man and sadly see a lack of the fear of God. I see loyalty to man, but not to Christ. I see circling the wagons of their own men, but not standing bold for Truth.
Guys, you aren’t alone. Many people are experiencing the same thing, and the Lord sees what is done in HIS name to HIS children.
I don’t know if this will help or not as I’m new to this blog, but just in case, here is a solid website that cites how Purpose Driven churches deal with dissenters. I am guessing some who visit this blog will find some familiar things in the description as we did, and our church wasn’t PDL at all. It seems the tactics are pretty much the same and that is “scary” (humanly speaking).
http://www.crossroad.to/articl.....isters.htm
I hope to leave an encouraging passage for those hurt by leadership:
1. Hold Scripture and treasure above all else. It really is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword. It convicts and heals. It directs us in the paths of righteousness and feeds our souls. It alone is Truth.
2. Don’t give up obeying the Master. He wants you in a local church where you can minister to others and be ministered to. You still need accountability even while you are healing.
3. Read the whole chapter of Ezekiel 34 !! John 10 goes right along with this.
Thanks for allowing me to give my two-cents here.
Denise
January 24th, 2009 at 9:34 am
Denise
Welcome to this blog and thanks for posting the link. I briefly looked at it and the tactics described there seem pretty similar to what people say they experienced at SGM when they were “asked” to leave.
January 24th, 2009 at 9:55 am
Denise, welcome to the blog!
Stunned
January 24th, 2009 at 10:55 am
I didn’t vote for the guy, but I know Josh Harris is somewhat impressed with President Obama… so when I read the following statement on whitehouse.gov, I thought it was both encouraging and ironic:
Would that those who “watch over our souls” were at least as humble as those leaders outside the Church. When SGM pastors “circle the wagons,” it only makes Jesus and His kingdom look bad.
January 24th, 2009 at 11:07 am
Denise,
Welcome! Thank you for linking to us on your blog.
January 24th, 2009 at 11:18 am
Travis-
Good point. Unfortunately, since power corrupts, those in power have often had accountability forced upon them. Think of the freedom of information act and corporate stock holder statements.
The blogs, to some extent, are having the same effect.
In “What to Expect…” I stated the following:
6) Expect to see a new humility from your pastors. If confronted, they will no longer turn the tables on you, but will actually listen. It is crucial that we understand this. They will listen, appear very humble, but will change nothing. They sit in the seat of Moses, and you don’t. Humility and leadership in SGM are antithetical. A well practiced humble demeanor does not equal humility. I hate to break it to you, but the guy trying to sell you a car doesn’t really want to be your best friend.
When you confront your newandimprovedmorehumblethanever pastor, ask him for a response. If there is verbal repentance, ask him what active repentance looks like. Ask him to define repentance. How is one saved-faith and repentance. What does repentance mean in the context of salvation? Does it have a different meaning in interpersonal relationships?
Watch for signs of active repentance.
One more prediction…
You won’t see it.
I’m already hearing reports of newandimprovedmorehumblethanever pastors.
A humble man repents when he sins. A man who repents after being caught/busted/exposed just might be a different animal…
January 24th, 2009 at 11:37 am
Hi Denise,
Thank you for your thoughts and the Scripture passages.
January 24th, 2009 at 12:07 pm
Thanks you guys for the warm welcome.
January 24th, 2009 at 12:10 pm
Travis,
Look at the fruit of their deeds and not their words–from government to other leaders.
Ken Blue in Healing Spiritual Abuse really hits on this. On page 99 he writes:
January 24th, 2009 at 12:28 pm
INC-
“So when we assess the integrity of a Christian leader or group, we do not look first at its motives, its aims or its moments of kindness. We look first and last at its fruit. If leaders constantly root their authority in an office rather than in servanthood, if they do everything for show, if the demand special privileges or titles, if they use words deceitfully, if they major on minors to the neglect of real pastoral needs, and if this behavior tears people down rather than builds them up, then such leaders must be confronted and changed–or abandoned.”
Awesome!
January 24th, 2009 at 12:28 pm
Ken Blue was really helpful to me in wading through the fog of the situation I was in. The fog was the intermittent kind words that were combined with actions that kept boxing me in and tearing me down. That contradiction is hard to get a handle on because when you’re aware of your own need for grace, you want to extend it to others and honor Christ. I was taken in and hanging on because I kept thinking, OK, they mean well and things will change. I must be patient and kind.
As some events started to pile on me, I felt more and more ripped up inside, Blue’s words finally helped me to start looking at what was being done (and had been done), not only to me, but to others, rather than what was being said.
This tracks with what Jim said above about repentance. John told the crowds to bear fruit in keeping with repentance. Paul in 2 Corinthians 7:8-16 rejoiced because the Corinthians did a total turn around and righted a wrong within the church.
The fruit of their deeds was the compass I needed.
January 24th, 2009 at 12:44 pm
Jim,
I can’t tell you how much Ken Blue’s book helped me. I did read or skim a number of books I was able to find in the library. I read enough quotes and reviews of Blue online that I ordered the book. He discusses and applies Matthew 23 as the basis for several chapters, analyzing the Pharisees and Jesus’ words to them to understand and diagnose today’s heavy-handed authoritarianism and abuse. (One of the chapters is even titled, The Seat of Moses-The Power to Abuse).
Blue’s thoughts went right along with what I was seeing happen and gave focus to things I was struggling to sort out. The book was such a ministry of God to my heart.
January 24th, 2009 at 1:32 pm
INC,
that quote from Ken Blue’s book sounds like something I read over on the link Denise posted last night:
“Continually Monitor the Commitment Level. Healthy congregations have good feedback systems. As change occurs, commitment levels will vary. For some people any change calls for a ‘withdrawal from the emotional bank account’ (Covey, 1989). When the account is overdrawn, people become unwilling to make further changes. As withdrawals are made, change leaders should intentionally replenish the account through acts of kindness, good communication, love and concern.”
(pg. 104. James H. Furr, Mike Bonem and Jim Herrington, Leading Congregational Change (San Francisco: Jossey-Bass, 2000). Authored by James H. Furr, Mike Bonem, and Jim Herrington in 2000, it was published by Jossey-Bass, the main publisher for the Peter Drucker Foundation (now called Leader to Leader) and the “Christian” Leadership Network founded by Bob Buford.)
http://www.crossroad.to/articl.....isters.htm
January 24th, 2009 at 1:46 pm
Ellie,
That sounds SO manipulative and SO unlike the love of 1Corinthians 13 or the service of Philippians 2.
January 24th, 2009 at 1:52 pm
One caveat about Blue’s book. He is excellent on diagnosis and spends the most time on this. I realize that’s the first step towards healing, but I wish he had written more about repairing the emotional and spiritual damage. He does discuss grace, but I really needed more.
January 24th, 2009 at 4:29 pm
I’d like to share something with you guys, if I may. When my husband and I were in college, we were part of huge church. The college department alone was 500 people. The bible study on campus was much smaller.
While the church’s pastor was biblically strong, preaching verse by verse, the practice at the church wasn’t all that it should’ve been. From the college group to the young married group to the parenting group, they could be very overbearing leadership-wise. I do believe their motives were pretty good for the most part, wanting to be nothing like the world, but they tended to go to the other extreme and got legalistic (group dating ONLY, schedule-feeding not demand feeding your kids ONLY).
They couldn’t see the difference between biblical commands which are NOT optional, and matters of conscience before God which ARE (Romans14).
It took quite a while for me to see God sort of unravel the bad stuff from all of that. There was definitly hurt on my and my husband’s part in how they treated us.
All this to say, one thing I really found helpful was studying about God’s grace. If I could recommend a book that might encourage folks here, it would be Jerry Bridges’ book “Transforming Grace.” (Also his “Trusting God Even When Life Hurts” is also excellent).
Submission to elders is HARD after being burned; I know, I’ve gone through it three times. However, it is required of us to do so in a local church. The Lord is truly faithful to His children and will help you trust again, although ever so cautiously and never blindly. Its a good lesson to learn b/c as the days grow dark, we can’t afford to overlook anyone, but test all things, for sure.
May the Lord direct you all in a way that truly honors Him and His Word.
In Him,
Denise
January 24th, 2009 at 4:50 pm
Denise,
Carole and I LOVE Jerry Bridges.
Here’s a blast from the past. An excerpt from Transforming Grace.
January 24th, 2009 at 5:29 pm
Denise,
Thanks for the recommendations. Last week in an old thread I saw Jim mention Trusting God. I think it’s the one he just linked to. It sounded like something I needed to read and I ordered it (lots of cheap copies online!). I’m eagerly waiting for it to get here.
January 24th, 2009 at 6:56 pm
Bethany, you wrote: After having many discussions with my friends and hearing a lot of the same answers we get on here, I’ve begun to realize something…the reason they get so defensive about what is said is because SGM is their identity. For the longest time I couldn’t figure out why if I didn’t agree with something in SG and shared it (without being negative) they got so mad. Well now it makes sense…because this is where their identity is and saying anything negative about it, means that I am basically attacking them.
You nailed it. That is EXACTLY the reason that many get defensive when the truth is revealed, it is a frontal attack on their identity in Christ – which Biblically speaking, is idolatry, let’s call it what it is. So they see us attacking their idol when we seem to attack SGM. When we “attack” pastors it is attacking their “protectors” and the like. It is a revelation of what is in the heart – you see it over and over on the blogs, on both sides unfortunately. Even from those who have left, who still get easily ruffled over things, there is a reason…so we keep this in mind, walk slowly, with love, and listen more than speak..
January 24th, 2009 at 6:58 pm
Jim,
You wrote,
“A humble man repents when he sins. A man who repents after being caught/busted/exposed just might be a different animal…
Is there really any difference, sin is sin. In writing this you assume that any and all sin committed by SGM is intentional. Has there been neglect? Yes. Is there room for repentance and forgiveness? Yes. Can there be change? Absolutely. Also in that particular post you leave absolutely no room or hope for change for a pastor to actually humble themselves and repent, and dismiss any potential for real change simply because he is part of SGM. How can YOU disqualify the genuineness of someone who has humbled themselves, repented and asked forgiveness. That is dangerous ground, and highly judgemental. God is much bigger than your opinion of SGM, and I have already personally seen repentance, and change in the Chesapeake church.
January 24th, 2009 at 6:59 pm
Denise, welcome, and thank you for your comments. You wrote: I recognize the fear of man and sadly see a lack of the fear of God. I see loyalty to man, but not to Christ. I see circling the wagons of their own men, but not standing bold for Truth.”
I totally agree. Many in SGM exalt the Body over the Head (Christ) and worship the Body and not the Head (Christ) and just because the Body is “good” they justify their behaviors by showing us the Scriptures that talk about the importance of elders, leadership, the Body, etc…all the while forgetting Jesus Christ in the picture, who is our first love.
January 24th, 2009 at 7:07 pm
INC, thanks for your comments about spiritual abuse. I benefitted as well when I left SGM last year by reading up on the characteristics of Spiritual abuse and got some “tools” to help me.
For those still in SGM, I’d encourage you to take his advice and Jims: The fruit of their deeds was the compass I needed. And what Jim said: look for active repentance in your pastors. Words are meaningless at this point. James was right.
January 24th, 2009 at 7:42 pm
Stein,
The problem is so many of us have not had the not judging intent recprocated. (sp)
How many of our stories involve judgement against a member on the part of leadership.
I am trying very hard not to judge the heart of these men, but just make observation about action or inaction. But its hard when I have not been given the same grace.
I think there would be a lot more good will toward the leadership at SGM if they didn’t burn so many bridges in the past. I think recently some sort of critical mass has been reached and people are sort of reaching a quarum (an awakening of a collective nature; I’m making reference to some obscure microbiological process, forgive my nerdiness,) but I digress. There was a lot of thinking the worst sort of judgement against my husband and me when we were dismembered and I simply cannot imagine what the heck they were smoking (or perhaps it was some heavy metal,) when they got rid of Stunned. Folks, I know that woman and she didn’t deserve to be thrown away like so much garbage.
January 24th, 2009 at 8:38 pm
Stein-
Years of manipulation and control from the top down in SGM won’t disappear with “I’m so sorry”.
I’m telling people to look for genuine repentance-not words.
It’s my opinion that it won’t be seen. I hope I’m wrong.
If you don’t understand the difference between repentance and “I’m sorry I got caught”, I really don’t know what else to say.
I do not believe that any and all sin committed by leaders is intentional. That would be ridiculous, and I don’t know where you’ve seen me say anything that resembles that.
What IS intentional is a pattern that is decades old in SGM/PDI.
Leaders cover for leaders.
Maybe CJ will prove me wrong tomorrow night and fire Keith, who is clearly disqualified as an elder.
We’ll see.
January 24th, 2009 at 10:02 pm
Stein, I have a question that only you, and perhaps a few others who actually attend the Chesapeake church could answer for me..you said, “ I have already personally seen repentance, and change in the Chesapeake church.”
can you please share specifically what it is you’ve noticed? Words, actions, changes in “policies”, etc…whatever it is you deem to be fruit in keeping with repentance.
for once, this could never be assumed to be gossip, or slander, as it is assumed to be POSITIVE and encouraging to the Body at large who are reading along here..and I think we all would like to hear this because the “proof is in the pudding” so please, share the pudding with us who don’t go to church there..I’d love to be able to rejoice as you are at the fact that leadership has repented..
(the rest is not directed at your specifically Stein, just my personal thoughts) Bear fruit in keeping with repentance Jesus told the Pharisees..so if He could expect and ask that of Pharisees, could we too not expect the same of the pastors in SGM? Seems reasonable, and Biblical. You will know someone by their FRUIT.
So that makes us, as the Body, FRUIT inspectors, not heart inspectors. I point out this distinction in the event any of the pastors accuse me and those in the Body of sin for “looking into thelives” of leadership for fruit. Such an accusation would be ridiculous and illogical, mainly because it is clearly Biblical, but secondly because I (and others) are only looking, while these same pastors spent years “SPEAKING truth into OUR lives.”
I’m not saying we turn the tables and do some sin sniffing of our own, simply inspect the fruit as Jesus did, careful NOT to attach motives to what we do or don’t see. But simply stating the obvious about what we do see and telling others – “what you call an orange, is really an apple” is certainly not inappropriate at this time.
January 24th, 2009 at 11:53 pm
Stein,
I’ve spent the last three weeks praying for the leaders and people in SGM. I would love to see a real repentance happen with the leaders. I would love to go back to my former church…but I don’t think I can. Even though true repentance would be wonderful and would glorify God, I think there is still a big problem…the way the Bible is being preached. Verses are being taken out of context. They are being used to get across whatever point is being made in the sermon (or book) without focusing on the context of what’s going on. A prime example of this is CJ’s book on humility (look at Pg 20.)
I pray that the meeting tomorrow night will be a time of reconciliation and that He will be granting wisdom to those who are confused and comfort for those hurt.
Juli, thanks for the advice! I believe God has already prepared me for this time as He walked me through a really hard time with a friend during my senior year in high school. I have learned what its like to walk with those you care about who don’t really want any kind of friendship with you. I know God will use it to reveal more of Himself.
January 25th, 2009 at 8:33 am
Stein, I’m concerned about what might happen AFTER the repentance. Someone on here was talking about Ken Blue’s book. I don’t remember the name of it and haven’t read it. But the excerpt spoke of the conscious effort to be kind and gentle as sort of a “deposit” when people appear to be pulling away. I’m concerned that what you will see tonight is lots of humility and deposits into your “feel good” bank but no real future change in policy across SGM. If CJ says he repents, please ask him what he intends to do to show the fruit of his repentance because things need to completely and totally change. Not hearts. Things — meaning doctrinal statements, mission statements for each church, qualifications for pastors, a list of grievances that if committed would require instant termination of a pastor (along with a list of what they will NOT be terminated for), a letter of apology to Jim and Carole and also to the gang over at Survivors (Kris and Guy), restitution and a letter of optional reinstatement of ALL who have been ousted for the wrong reasons or counseled wrongly or injured emotionally, and most importantly, CJ needs to be accountable to someone outside the denomination who can steer him in the right direction.
For the folks in Chesapeake, there is a man there named Bob Fox who is sort of a pastor’s pastor. His ministry is counseling, supporting, and exhorting pastors. He would be happy to become involved, I’m sure. Or even step in as interim pastor. He used to be a pastor at Kempsville Presbyt. Church. He’s an ordained (and spirit-filled) Presb. minister. Which brings me to something else. The Pastors’ College. Everything there must totally change as well. I’m not a global thinker. I tend to dig into the details of things. I think that change COULD come, but it will take a lot of unbrainwashing. Let’s call it brain cleansing. You will all need your brains cleansed of all things legalistic, everything that is outside the true intent of the Gospel. How does one do that while staying inside SGM? Not saying it can’t happen, Stein. I’m still hopeful. But how? (And I know for certain that there are people within these churches who have NOT been brainwashed and are simply following their Lord and Savior. I’m not trying to say everyone’s in a cult. But there are nuances and areas within SGM where cult tendencies have been displayed. The fear of leaving, marriage and family stuff, etc.)
I don’t know who you are, Stein. Maybe Tim H? But I think it’s tough for us all here to imagine how anything could change substantially without CJ stepping down or someone within the ranks stepping up and totally transforming the entire denomination (maybe you or Barbaric Yawp?). We don’t see much hope of that ever happening, but that is limiting God. I will never do that. I’ve seen too much, too many miracles to ever limit His mercy toward those He loves. But Jim is being practical. It doesn’t look like it will happen.
One more thing… I think diversity within the body of Christ is spectacular. I love that we’re not all hip bones but each one of us has a certain specific calling and position within His precious body. If one schedules baby feedings and another does attachment parenting, I see that difference as holy and beautiful. One speaks in tongues and another hasn’t received that gift or not yet — it’s all beautiful. But there’s a deceiver in our midst. If we could all see that we’re on the same side against a common enemy, I think things will go much more smoothly and we’ll soon operate as one single body. I can’t wait for the great and glorious day when we are the spotless bride of Christ. All of us, with hearts beating together as one. Amen!!
I’ll be praying for you all tonight!
January 25th, 2009 at 8:44 am
Juli said,
“So that makes us, as the Body, FRUIT inspectors, not heart inspectors.”
This is an excellent point! It debuncts the idea that we are somehow not allowed to REALLY be Bereans or look at and judge the RESULTS of their long-held “sound doctrines.” We ARE allowed; in fact, we are instructed to do so, and pastors/leaders/elders/apostles should not be angered or intimidated by it. When you think about it, this is really God’s protection for them. Who wants to stand before the Lord, having held onto errant “sound doctrines” for the entire course of their life, thinking they were “doing it right”, only to find out that, in reality, their family of churches has left a wake of wounded brothers and sisters? That some under their care have walked away from the Lord entirely? Wouldn’t they rather know NOW? Like it or not, they NEED our voices and input.
I am not discounting the GOOD things that SGM has done over the years. My experience with them was rough, but I do not think the leaders and churches are evil. There is some questionable (at best) fruit, however, that really needs looked at!
Juli also said,
“I’m not saying we turn the tables and do some sin sniffing of our own, simply inspect the fruit as Jesus did, careful NOT to attach motives to what we do or don’t see. But simply stating the obvious about what we do see and telling others – “what you call an orange, is really an apple” is certainly not inappropriate at this time.”
Good, good point!
January 25th, 2009 at 8:44 am
FF,
There’s only one pastor in SGM who I need to be reconciled with. Mutual repentance should occur.
SGM Inc, and all other SGM pastors and their supporters have no reason to apologize to me.
They feel what I’m doing is wrong. SGM and I have a different definition of the church.
I don’t think that I’ve been personally sinned against. They have not been smart, as they should be talking to me, but don’t I feel that they owe me an apology.
They owe their members an apology. They owe their members a new paradigm.
January 25th, 2009 at 8:47 am
Dear Chesapeake folks,
We are praying for you ALL today!
January 25th, 2009 at 9:44 am
Excellent post, FF!
I can’t think of one part to quote that I like the best, the whole thing is great!
January 25th, 2009 at 9:55 am
Jim
I do consider it strange with all that you have done, none of the leadership in SGM has tried to do anything to try and reconcile the situation. It looks like you have laid out a good case for wrongs that have been done to you. Does SGM leadership think it is proper to just ignore this and hope that it will go away. Is it acceptable for SGM leadership to have a wrong identified to them like you have and not do some serious looking into this and soul searching?
Please correct me if I am wrong on what I understand the situation to be.
January 25th, 2009 at 10:09 am
Steve,
Describing what we experienced in our SGC was my way of starting the conversation, and attempting to care for my friend. I still think that my ex pastor and I will be reconciled one day. I don’t think I’ve referenced him in six months, except when challenged by locals who have found this site.
SGM leadership is united in their opinion of what we’re doing here. “It’s just wrong”.
These issues are perceived as none of my business. Again, we have a different definition of the church. As such, I know that in some circles, it is thought that talking to me would be like trying to convince a Presbyterian that paedobaptism is wrong.
All I ask of SGM leaders who want this site shut down is to show me 3 posts that I’ve written which were factually incorrect.
If anything I’ve said is factually incorrect, I will make the necessary changes to set the record straight and will clearly admit that I was wrong.
If I see a pattern of disseminating false information, I will shut this site down.
This has been made clear to SGM leadership offline.
With this information in hand, I don’t understand why SGM leadership continues to remain silent, claiming that interaction with me would be futile, as I’m an unreasonable man.
Unfortunately for SGM, their lack of response has led to a new course of action on my part.
Now if I hear multiple reports all saying the same thing about a SGM leader, I no longer attempt to contact that leader to get his side of the story, as SGM seems to have a “do not respond to him” policy.
All I can say is, let me know how that works out for you…
January 25th, 2009 at 10:44 am
To continue…
We’ve heard the charge that all we do is gossip and slander, without addressing substantive issues.
All one has to do is thumb through the posts to discover that we spent 2 solid months talking about nothing but SGM polity and missiology.
January 25th, 2009 at 1:07 pm
Jim, they do owe you an apology. Because of what they did NOT do and the actions they did NOT take, you have had to do their work for them. Comforting, consoling, counseling, advising, listening to countless stories, caring. You are doing their job! You at least deserve a thank you, if not an apology.
Thank you, Ellie, for thanking me!
January 25th, 2009 at 8:37 pm
Jim, the integrity you and Carole have both shown has been a blessing, and an example to follow.
My former Sr Pastor from SGm accused me of lacking integirty (THREE times in one phone conversation!) when he found out abouy my blog. I can only imagine what you’ve been accused of.
Keep pressing on, forgetting what is behind, encouraging others along the way…that is what we are told to do. May God have mercy on His people, including all of us.
January 25th, 2009 at 8:41 pm
Thanks, Juli!
Friends like you, who are in the thick of it along with us, makes it so much easier! Strength in numbers… unity of vision… and Truth… God is so good!
January 25th, 2009 at 10:25 pm
Carole, I am still very much in the thick of it, I found out two weeks ago another brother in the Lord in a church not SGM is also undergoing false accusations, shunning, and the pastors are trying to destroy his ministry…amazing that he and his wife are going through this, and now we are able to encourage one another.
Spiritual abuse sucks, but in a strange way, God is still glorified because it brings His Body closer together as they seek to give each other enocuragement and mercy in the pain and suffering. So He uses even the apostasy for His glory! I love the Lord! He’s SO WISE! He’s calling out His people…one by one..
January 28th, 2009 at 4:38 pm
Question.
And before I ask, I just want to say that I am not asking this because I necessarily have a stand on this issue, nor do I ask to accuse you of doing this, I ask simply because I want your thoughts, so please don’t attack me. My intentions are not to attack, I only come in peace.
I’ve seen many places on this site and the survivors site when sgm people get on and just wipe the sites with slander and gossip smears. The responses to these attacks are usually something like “everyone from sgm says that, and we’re tired of hearing it”. However just because you’re tired of hearing that, or because you say you aren’t gossiping or slandering, doesn’t necessarily mean you aren’t.
I’ve heard gossip defined as sharing details about another person, even if they are true.
Proverbs has many words for those who gossip. Ephesians 4:29 is a familiar verse as well about only speaking well of others.
However, I can understand what you all say about warning others of danger.
So my question, how can you reconcile the two? Where is the midpoint? Does the need to warn others of possible danger or brainwashing override the sin of gossipping? Can gossip be a good thing in any situation?
Thoughts?
January 28th, 2009 at 5:07 pm
I think Scripture deals with this eponine–I’ll post a few passages.
2Tim. 1: 15 You know that everyone in the province of Asia has deserted me, including Phygelus and Hermogenes.
2 Tim. 2: 16 Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly. 2Tim 2: 17 Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, 18 who have wandered away from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some.
2Tim. 4: 14 Alexander the metalworker did me a great deal of harm. The Lord will repay him for what he has done. 15 You too should be on your guard against him, because he strongly opposed our message.
3 John 9 I wrote to the church, but Diotrephes, who loves to be first, will have nothing to do with us. 10 So if I come, I will call attention to what he is doing, gossiping maliciously about us. Not satisfied with that, he refuses to welcome the brothers. He also stops those who want to do so and puts them out of the church. 3John 11 Dear friend, do not imitate what is evil but what is good.
We should try to deal with sin issues within our local church where they occurred. But having exhausted all avenues and going through Matt. 18 steps, one sometimes has to go public, because 1) the ministry is public, 2) there’s great influence with those outside the local church (because of speaking engagements, books written, seminary or college boards they are on), and 3) to warn others.
I hope this might help a little.
January 28th, 2009 at 5:17 pm
Here’s a bit more:
From Thayer’s on the word “whisperings” (sometimes translated as “gossip”) from 2 Cor. 12:20 :
psithurismos
Thayer Definition:
2) of the magical murmuring of a charmer of snakes
From Webster’s:
SLA’NDER, n.
1. A false tale or report maliciously uttered. and tending to injure the reputation of another by lessening him in the esteem of his fellow citizens, by exposing min to impeachment and punishment, or by impairing his means of lining; defamation. Slander,
that worst of poisons, ever finds an easy entrance to ignoble minds.
2 Disgrace; reproach; disreputation; ill name.
SLA’NDER
, v.t. To defame; to injure by maliciously uttering a false report respecting one; to tarnish or impair the reputation of one by false tales, maliciously told or propagated.
January 30th, 2009 at 4:18 pm
Thanks Denise I really appreciate your help. I’m praying about this…
January 30th, 2009 at 7:06 pm
Eponine,
There you are! I saw your post when it first appeared and then the comments came so fast, I lost it!
The first thing I want to say is don’t you worry. You have asked a legitimate, sincere question and if anyone gives you a hard time (although I don’t think they will), I will stick up for you!
Here’s my take on the whole gossip issue. There is a sin called gossip. However, I do not agree with SGM’s narrow definition of it. I believe their definition is “involving others in a situation when they are not part of the problem or solution.” If this was a sound definition, then that would mean Paul, the writers of the gospels and even Jesus Himself would be guilty. Each of them publically pointed out folks’ sin, sometimes recording their names for generations of believers to read. Denise pointed that out very well in the Scripture references above. So, that can’t be right.
What is the sin of gossip, then? I don’t believe you can categorize it as easily as SGM does, because to me it is a heart issue. When we are just curious about people’s dirt or bored and want something juicy to discuss, and this discussion of other people’s problems and shortcomings makes us feel superior to them - that’s when we’re falling into gossip, IMO. We should look to our own hearts. The Holy Spirit will reveal our motives if we ask Him. It’s always good to do a heart check before posting!
But to shut down legitimate concerns or complaints using the supposed sin of gossip as the means is hurtful to those who are sincerely trying to get to the truth. That’s what some of us here experienced and therefore have a low tolerance for. Carole wrote a wonderful post way back in June addressing the gossip/slander topic and the purpose of the blog. It’s called There Was No One Left, if you’d like to read it.
Blessings!
January 31st, 2009 at 12:58 am
I googled wikipedia for a definition of gossip which wasn’t from a the teaching of SGM. This might be repeating but it helped me:
a person who habitually reveals personal and sensational facts. Rumor or report of an intimate nature about the affairs of others. Chatty. Idle talk. Usually of a personal or trivial nature.
FUNCTION: To be used as a form of passive aggression as a tool to isolate and harm others. Hmmmmm.
It says nothing about uncovering deception or exposing the truth that has been hidden. I think God wants us to know truth and we can trust him to expose those things that displease him. He does it in his timing. To distort the truth or hide it sometimes makes the honest one look bad doesn’t it?
January 31st, 2009 at 8:00 am
Thanks, Lion Heart! That is very helpful.
January 31st, 2009 at 10:56 am
The first definition of “whisperings” I posted was somehow cut out so here is the whole definition again of the word, sometimes rendered “gossip”:
psithurismos
Thayer Definition:
1) a whispering, i.e. secret slandering
2) of the magical murmuring of a charmer of snakes
January 31st, 2009 at 11:01 am
Here’s another thought on this issue:
Is the talk among elders about a person in their flock considered gossip? Why or why not?
What about when the elders discuss someone with the deacons (deacons have no authority or shepherding responsibilities) –is that considered gossip?
January 31st, 2009 at 12:11 pm
This is interesting. My husband and I know that we were “gossipped” about after leaving PDI, because we found out that a pastor clear across the country (who had no dealings with my man) told one of our closes friends not to go to my husband for counsel, because he was not a godly man, or some such words. Imagine our surprise to find this out! Well, we proceeded to help our friend anyway, whose life was really, really messed with by controlling pastors. He left SG, got some good Christian counselling, and is doing very well, now.
So, why is it okay for a leader to tell someone about someone else when they are not “part of the problem or part of the solution”? Why is okay for things to be said behind our backs that, in the end, are not true? Isn’t that slander? Just wondering…
January 31st, 2009 at 12:17 pm
http://www.sgmsurvivors.com/?p=179
Here’s one of the “Mennonite” conversations that I found.
(btw: Claireon was already taken to task for her comments on that posting, it’s from last fall. I’m just posting the link in case anyone wants to read the convo.)
January 31st, 2009 at 12:22 pm
….but….Canary, did you talk to the pastor to hear his side of the story….?
(I’m being sarcastic here <gasp>, but you know how “believe the best” is usually towards leadership and not towards “laity”. :/ )
January 31st, 2009 at 1:05 pm
Ellie,
I get you. We had enough of that type of stuff – you know – you take a correction to your leader and it gets turned around to be your own sin, your own evil heart. Nope, that t-shirt got thrown away long ago.
It seems that leaders can talk amongst themselves, especially about those who have left, and give to the membership whichever “side” of the story they wish. We, on the other hand, gave no defense when we dismembered ourselves, so we wouldn’t divide the church. Seems we thought alot more about protecting the leaders’ rep than they thought about protecting ours.
So God looked after us, and our dear friend got as far away from the controlling situation as he could. Let me tell you, his story is as bad or even worse than Noel’s and Esther’s, if you can believe that. I wish I was free to tell, but I’m not. ‘Nuff to say that our brother in the Lord is hooked into a good fellowship, and living a happy life. So much for my “ungodly” husband’s counsel…
Oh, and for those who read bitterness into almost every post, I was being SARCASTIC.
January 31st, 2009 at 1:52 pm
redefining things- classic manipulation tactic!
SGM redefines what gossip and slander is. That is not to say that at times, even on the blogs, we have not been guilty of crossing that line from time to time – with so many words being said, we are all bound to sin in that regard at some point! But overall, simply accusing everyone of slander and gossip simply because there is some truth being exposed? Not so.
The question I have aksed myself and others is this: as the truth is being exposed – what purpose does it serve? Are we exposing the truth to bring GOd glory? TO point others to Jesus, to freedom? Or are we exposing truth to “get vengenance” on those who hurt us? Are we exposing truth to get even? Those are questions we should ask ourselves, and of course, only God knows our hearts..but we should be careful we don’t cross the line into gossip, as there is a point that we would and could. With so much hurt, anger, words spoken, it is a real temptation.
I guess the question would be: what makes the word spoken gossip? Is is the motive of the speaker? The nature of what is spoken (true or false) what would it be?
SGM says that what we say on here is all gossip because of our motives (*which they presume to know) They could care less if what is bieng said is true or not. It all goes back to OUR hearts. I don’t agree.
But I do think somewhere, motives (when something spoken is in fact true) should be considered. There just needs to be a balance.
ANyone have thoughts on this? Like what determines if it is gossip? Is it the heart of the person, the heart of the message, what?
January 31st, 2009 at 2:17 pm
JULI:” God knows our hearts..but we should be careful we don’t cross the line into gossip, as there is a point that we would and could. With so much hurt, anger, words spoken, it is a real temptation. But I do think somewhere, motives (when something spoken is in fact true) should be considered. There just needs to be a balance.”
I agree Juli with your thought about balance above:
and also “The question I have aksed myself and others is this: as the truth is being exposed – what purpose does it serve? Are we exposing the truth to bring GOd glory? TO point others to Jesus, to freedom? Or are we exposing truth to “get vengenance” on those who hurt us? ”
And motive also. Good points Juli. What you are saying it seems its that consider prayfully your motive, purpose and what could come from it and how others will receive it. Falls in line with the 2nd commandment.
And because I have to be careful about being sarcastic I looked this one up also. I keep thinking about all the newbies online with hurt and confusion and what would be helpful for them to know.
Sarcasm is a form of ironic speech or writing which is bitter or cutting, being intended to taunt its target.
It comes from the ancient Greek σαρκάζω (sarkazo) meaning ‘to tear flesh’ but the ancient Greek word for the rhetorical concept of taunting was instead χλευασμός (chleyasmόs). Sarcasm appears several times in the Old Testament, for example:
Sarcasm is proverbially said to be the lowest form of wit.[3] Hostile, critical comments may be expressed in an ironic way such as saying “don’t work too hard” to a lazy worker. The use of irony introduces an element of humour which may make the criticism seem more polite and less aggressive but understanding the subtlety of this usage requires second-order interpretation of the speaker’s intentions.
January 31st, 2009 at 2:30 pm
This is a good discussion. The word sarcasm is not in the NT. Paul used sarcasm.
Many people don’t like it, but I don’t think one can build a Biblical defense against it’s use.
I have this habit that bugs some people. Rather than say the same thing over and over again, I tend to link to what I’ve already posted. I think now would be a good time to do that.
Read here.
January 31st, 2009 at 3:13 pm
I am glad that this discussion has come up (thanks eponine) because I am still trying to figure this out. I am not sure I believe 100% what I have been taught about gossip and slander but at the same time think there are good valid points in the messages I’ve heard on this topic.
January 31st, 2009 at 4:45 pm
Indeed, I think Jesus was blunt with the Pharasees because they were practicing the LAW without LOVE and compassion. We can make many mistakes with people and work it out if we show concern and compassion with them. It is when the judgement of the law comes down without mercy that we see people crumble. I have been there and it is very painful. I don’t want to do that to others and will often give the benefit of the doubt thinking they JUST DON”T KNOW. Amazingly God is opening many many eyes. Maybe it had to get this bad to be so obvious.
January 31st, 2009 at 5:17 pm
It occurred to me that Galatians 6:1 might serve as a guideline as to whether a concern of gossip is brought up to manipulate or to restore:
“Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted.”
If that spirit of gentleness is clearly there, then I would think that person has a genuine concern for the other’s spiritual well being, whether or not they have correctly assessed the situation.
January 31st, 2009 at 5:53 pm
Juli and Lionheart,
Good questions and clarifications on gossip and sarcasm. Really, for all of us to take into consideration are Julis’ points: “Are we exposing truth to bring God glory? To point others to Jesus, to freedom? Or are we exposing truth to get even?” This blog is an instrument to bring to light the long unheard cries of the oppressed and discarded; sgms’s skewering of the Word; and counsel which brings forth manipulation,control and wounding. As we bring our stories, our insights etc here on the blog,how do we do so without bringing specualtions about others into the whole mix??? Would that be bordering on gossip? I am so inclined to use zingers and sarcasm–often in my head and in my house (!!) I (for me) must speak with consideration here,lest in anything sarcastic I might say may subtley be “intended to taunt its target” (as the stated definition LH posted). Yes,many are reading these blogs on Refuge—its a “lighthouse” in a sense…all the truths speak loud and clear –a lighthouse brings one in a storm to a safe and secured refuge—people reading might be inclined to set themself back adrift to be “tossed to and fro” when they hear sarcasm or unrelated speculations. It is a challening balance as we seek to speak the truth and expose sin; encourage the wounded; and walk in the Light as He is in the Light…Help us, Holy Spirit……….
February 1st, 2009 at 1:10 pm
Can I just add something here? This is the part that I meant was sarcastic:
So much for my “ungodly” husband’s counsel…
Oh, and for those who read bitterness into almost every post, I was being SARCASTIC.
I am also a bit concerned that no one commented on the main part of my post, which was about our friend who experienced THE SAME OR WORSE THAN ESTHER AND NOEL. Instead, we are talking about gossip, slander, and motivations (all of which are important) but not how my husband was slandered to a pastor clear accross the country! Nor how our friend had to LEAVE SGM in order to have a normal life again. That was the meat of my post. No bitterness. Not gossip but the truth, because it concerns us all in the body of Christ. Maybe a little anger because of the terrible suffering our brother went through at the hands of controlling pastors, but I cannot apologize for that. Anger at injustice is necessary and honorable.
Why was nothing mentioned about the main content of the post? Why did I get jumped on for the sarcasm at the end? Gosh, I’m concerned that we are loosing focus, here. And thanks, Jim. I went over to hear Mark D.’s take again.
February 1st, 2009 at 1:12 pm
canary,
You’ll be happy to know that we’ll soon be addressing a topic near and dear to your heart.
Legalism.
February 1st, 2009 at 1:30 pm
You go, Jim! I can hardly wait.
February 1st, 2009 at 3:33 pm
Don’t forget to tell everyone about how legalism is a false gospel…
February 1st, 2009 at 3:34 pm
…and how even a little leaven will leaven the whole lump of dough…
February 1st, 2009 at 3:37 pm
Oh,oh, and don’t forget to tell us that legalism enslaves us, stealing our freedom in Christ…well, you know these things. I’m just so dang excited that you are going to address the very ENEMY of the saints!
February 1st, 2009 at 4:12 pm
Canary,
I want to apologize to you- I thought I was responding to sarcasm and gossip in regards to another thread–I was referring to what seemed to be a ‘rabbit trail’ of talk about Shannon Harris. And Joshua Harris living at the Mahaneys for a year etc, etc. And thinking of people who might still be in SGM and are scoping out the talk and hearing talk about Shannon and Joshua that were’nt really related to what the Refuge focus was about,and so they might be put off instead of listening to the truths they need to hear/see.—I and my family do understand and have experienced the turning of tables on “checking your heart motives” when you’ve just been trampled on the floor. And time again the deflecting or no response from leadership for terribly serious issues. And on the other side of the coin-we see that Jesus often spoke to the Pharisees with sarcasm and biting straight to the point talk—sarcasm and blunt talk seem to be reserved for the law-driven and Pharisees. I will be more careful to be sure which thread or post I am responding to! And like you, I look forward to the discussion on legalism!
February 1st, 2009 at 4:27 pm
Waters,
Thanks. I, too, think we should be careful when we name names, what we are saying and how it is said. I TRY to avoid talking about something or someone I don’t know much about. We also have to remember that some people who post on here are in the midst of becoming free from the controlling system and will, on occassion, say something they might later regret. We are a community here, with people who love Jesus and have been once enslaved to the law. So we have to leave a little room for that.
No worries. No offense taken!
February 1st, 2009 at 4:40 pm
Canary,
I’m kinda new here. Lots of reading and learning, but only one or two comments.
I just wanted to mention my agreement to what you said about anger at injustice being necessary and honorable. We don’t hear it much, but we are commanded to be angry. I guess it doesn’t come out that way in some translations. But I agree there’s definitely a time and a place for anger. I think if we use that anger for good, like this blog and survivor, then that’s what it’s meant for, what God would want us to use it for.
I know SGM’s take on anger–self-righteousness, bitterness and whatever else. But that just doens’t square with the Bible, like so many other things. I’m still in a SG church and I have not personally experienced what so many here have, except the general “better check your heart for bitterness” when looking for help on a relational conflict.
I’m sorry, I don’t think I know your story, Canary, but I’m on the same page as you regarding legalism. I think it’s one of the bigger root problems at SGM, like polity. I look forward to hearing what others have to say and learning more.
Bree
February 1st, 2009 at 4:41 pm
Oops! That’s Eph. 4:26, not 6:4. : )
February 1st, 2009 at 5:06 pm
canary,
I’m sorry. My comment was in response to thinking about what Juli said. I was doing some other thinking about gossip in general, but I didn’t have time to finish getting my thoughts together. Sometimes I read a comment and see that there’s been a reply and don’t realize a commenter wanted something addressed. I also have a tendency to think my response as I’m reading and don’t always go back and write it out.
I see your statement about your husband as using irony to point out the ludicrous aspect that a man who had been called “ungodly” ministered and helped a fellow believer in a tough time.
And no, it’s not right for leaders to slander other believers. It’s a method of control and asserting their authority and image as the one who is always right. It’s kind of a preemptive strike against your credibility because there is fear that someone might hear your side and think you were right. I think leaders who do this may also be doing it as a means of continually justifying their actions. Who knows what guilt they want to avoid or how they are trying to deny culpability for their actions? If there is a pattern there, to come face to face with it would mean overhauling and changing some things on which they have built their identity.*
As I have said, I had it done once to me to my face in front of over a dozen other people (who knows what was said behind my back). Because it was done to my face, God gave me the strength and words to refute it. The pastor had nothing to say in reply–what could he say?–however, no one mentioned the incident to me later and you always wonder what sticks in people’s minds.
*I saw on Survivors that Jim mentioned Ted Tripp teaching from Romans 7 on our identity in Christ. When the identity of a leader is built on understanding that he is in Christ and that he doesn’t have to build his self on his own efforts there is room for humility and repentance. When you build your identity on your self and your good works, intelligence, etc., then you have to defend every thing you do to preserve who you are.
This is why I think it is easier for a leader to repent of one event rather than a pattern. The one event is not so much a threat to the understanding and sense of self as it is when you admit that there’s a pattern there that needs to change.
As I write this, I think this is true for each of us. We live in the grace of Christ and to expand on our identity in Christ–the more we realize our identity is in Christ–our new birth and that we have been forgiven and accepted and made new–the less defensive we become and the more willing to love and accept one another.
February 1st, 2009 at 5:42 pm
Good points, Inc. I think it is great that you had a response when you were slandered to your face. I’m glad that it didn’t happen that way with us when we left. I was too weak in the Lord, and too scared, to defend where we stood. Not anymore, I think, because I believe the Holy Spirit will give the response at the right time.
It just maddens me to think that the sheep are told not to gossip/slander, but leaders get to do it under the guise of sharing information. Our CG leader even took notes at meetings. I had no idea at the time that he was writing down things to share with the pastor. That is abhorrent. By the time we got to our mee-ting with the pastors to ask our questions, we had been presented in such a way that our leaders were ready to show us the door almost from the very beginning (we’d been in PDI for almost 16 years). It was surprising, to say the least. We didn’t want to leave. We just wanted some questions answered.
I promise that we were in no way rebellious or angry. I could not believe the level of response we got from angry and impatient men whom we thought cared for us. What a relief it was to realize that, because they did not really care for our souls, they were not really our pastors after all. We no longer felt obligated towards them. So we went out the door they showed us, with absolutely no regrets. Hurt, yes. That took a while to overcome.
So, all those who want to accuse us of gossip/slander, ignoring the very real and painful experiences posted by others here, need to look to their leaders’ practices first. Some of them have slandered, gossiped, protected pediphiles from the law and the church, forced some to follow ways that went against their conscience, controlled and manipuilated others through fear and the law…I know there is more but I think I’ve made my point.
I agree with you, Inc., that real change would mean a huge overhaul of what they practice – a huge polity change. They have shown over and over again that they are not interested in this. It is hard to be hopeful. However, we can still tell the stories and defend the helpless. We can bind up the wounds of the sheep who have
been scattered, in our own little way. As the numbers increase, the voice will grow louder, and we will have to be heard!
February 1st, 2009 at 6:22 pm
Canary,
The Lord helped me to find the words. There was another instance in the same meeting when I was accused of gossiping and I just sat there in shock. It was done by a woman who I had considered a close friend. My husband jumped in then and defended me. It was ironic on so many levels, because the person to whom I had sent 2 emails did not come to me (if she were truly concerned about gossiping or what I had said), she just reported it. Her actions and those among whom my words were discussed were evidently not seen as gossip. So I do know what you mean about that difference of talk amongst leaders and amongst us “regular” folk.
It is so sad to think of these things that have been done. It’s hard to believe the notes were used to tell others and obviously to prejudice them against you. I think even asking questions was seen as a challenge to authority. I do believe you when you say you weren’t being angry or rebellious.
One thing I have learned from reading here is that if I am ever in a meeting with someone taking notes, I want a copy and to know to whom it is being distributed. Notes were taken at a meeting I was at and I have no idea what was written. I didn’t think to ask for a copy.
February 1st, 2009 at 6:46 pm
Canary,
I have one comment awaiting moderation. I guess it is stuck in cyberspace somewhere. This one may not make much sense as it is a continuation, but hang in there.
The gossip meme is terribly hard and can be used as a club. It appears this has happened for you and others as well as for me. It hasn’t been brought up because the person thought loving restoration was needed, but to shut down discussion. It is an accusation that really cut me to the quick. From what I’ve read, the “Don’t Talk” command is typical of abusive church situations.
February 1st, 2009 at 9:18 pm
Inc,
Yes, I thing the “don’t talk” was used to keep people quiet. Yet our leaders didn’t seem to hold to the same standard as those they taught. I will never understand that. Never.
Well, we aren’t being silent, now. Some people are finding their freedom in Christ because we are telling our experiences. What an amazing thing! It really is nice to know you, INC, even if it is only in cyberspace.
February 1st, 2009 at 9:50 pm
Thanks, canary.
I enjoy being one of your peeps!
February 1st, 2009 at 10:06 pm
The moderation filter doesn’t seem to be run with rhyme or reason.
Bree, it’s nice to get to know you a little and I’m looking forward to reading more of your thoughts.
Not sure if I’m one of Canary’s peeps, sometimes, I’m afraid, I’m the cat with feathers hanging out her big mouth
February 1st, 2009 at 10:21 pm
Sorry about the comments stuck in moderation… we were watching the game and weren’t “keeping our eyes on the ball.” Heh. (Corny, I know)
Wordpress moderates comments at will, and we have to clear them manually. We try to approve them as soon as possible, but sometimes we aren’t near our computers to do so in a timely fashion.
Maybe Wordpress will work out the kink in the system… until then, please bear with us…
February 1st, 2009 at 11:35 pm
Hey Canary,
One of my posts (I wrote to you) got stuck in moderation, and I thought maybe you missed it? It’s at 4:40.
DB, thanks. I’ve enjoyed reading your comments.
Bree
February 2nd, 2009 at 7:00 am
Bree, the feeling is mutual.
As far as being in moderation, I have no clue. I have a wordpress blog and I thought people I accepted got through thereafter but people get stuck in purgatory (sp) for reasons beyond my understanding.
If boobs, buts, or cusses were mentioned, I would follow the logic, but oftentimes the post is squeaky clean and gets caught in a filter somehow. Sometimes they’re even tagged spam, ooooooo shiver-shiver.
You guys are a lot more efficient about approving posts than yours truly.
Sorry about the spelling and grammar.
February 2nd, 2009 at 7:04 am
DB-
Regulars like you and canary are stuck in moderation all the time. Carole is an administrator and her comments often go into moderation.
The back end of this blog has a mind of its own.
February 2nd, 2009 at 8:51 am
Carole and Jim–
Let me get this straight. You were watching the game and not sitting quietly in front of your screen waiting with baited breath to moderate our comments? What the heck?
February 2nd, 2009 at 9:03 am
Bree!
I am so glad you are here!
Be sure to do some major study on that Ephesians verse, (which is a quote from Ps 4:4) especially on the verb often translated “be angry,” spending time on the specific verb tense used, and then search Scripture carefully before saying that we are ‘commanded to be angry.’ That is pretty strong language. I know we are commanded to put away anger. I would welcome verses from God that command me to be angry, that’s for sure. I love being angry. It is exhilarating.
If you do a word study on anger and being angry, it is pretty one sided.
Go ahead, I have my helmet on, throw them rocks.
But do a study, first. James 1:20 is a good place to start.
I am not pulling the SGM you can’t ever be angry card…but we have all agreed that the Bible is our source for godliness and for instruction in righteousness. I was pretty amazed eight years ago when I went to God’s word, planning to defend my anger and right to be angry, and could come up with squat doodle–except to come coming alongside Jesus when his Bride is being abused (the temple incident, his rebuke to the disciples about the kids, etc.) Much of the emotion over Noel and Esther and other stories are just that.
Sola Scriptura!
February 2nd, 2009 at 9:38 am
RT…
I know, I know… we are just a couple of slackers! Heh!
(And to think that I watched the whole game and Arizona didn’t win… :sigh: Although it was a great game and I am happy for the Steelers … it would have been better if my beloved Dolphins had made it… maybe next year…)
February 2nd, 2009 at 10:18 am
Hey RT,
Thanks for calling me out on that. I had my reservations after I’d written that comment–that particular line. My husband shared with me yesterday something he read in Lou Priolo’s book–he’s recommended by SGM, isn’t he? Well, sorry if that makes him a put off, but I’ll just explain what my husband said. He told me that Priolo says anger is a God-given emotion, given to destroy something. And that he cited Eph. 4:26 as a command to be angry. He also talks in the book about sinful anger. But the point partly being *what is it we’re to destroy.* I’m probably not making sense. But here’s that verse in The Message. Again, sorry if you don’t like that translation.
“Go ahead and be angry. You do well to be angry–but don’t use your anger as fuel for revenge. And don’t stay angry. Don’t go to bed angry. Don’t give the Devil that kind of foothold in your life.”
So I think the defintion of “anger” comes into this discussion, don’t you? If it’s vengeful, sinful, long-lasting anger, well, that’s wrong. But getting angry for the right reasons is not a sin. And although maybe not exactly a “command,” as it’s included in the passage, it is understood that being angry is definitely not wrong.
I didn’t do your suggested study. I am familiar with lots of passages on anger because it can be a struggle for me, with my kids. I’m not trying to defend that kind of anger. I am defending the anger that lots of us have for the attrocities cited on this site as well as survivor. That anger should be used to destroy something–I peronally think it’s the bad (legalistic) teaching of the gospel at SGM.
Thanks again. I welcome your input. No need of for a hard hat. : )
One more point. My normal SGM understanding of anger left no room for any of it because it always came back to motive. Well, since I’m a sinner, the motives rarely pure. Could I ever have righteous anger like Christ? Well, no, I can’t be perfect. So I think this way of understanding it that I mention here (not as a command, per se) and as seen in The Message is more spot on.
Complete agreement with you–sola scriptura.
Bree
February 2nd, 2009 at 2:01 pm
DB,
I just read your comment about you being the cat with feathers hanging out of your mouth. Hee-hee – you add so much color to this blog! I love your wit.
Bree,
I did read your response this morning. Stopped blogging to watch the big game. Yes, I look forward to more talk on legalism. SGM denies that they walk in it. Just look at the fruit. That’s how you can tell if the leaven is there.
I’m glad you haven’t run into the same sort of troubles in your church as we have. You can read my story on survivors, because I don’t know where the “my story” section went to, here. The one I wrote for the Refuge is a little more in depth.
You seem to have a soft heart. It is good that you are open to see if what you read here is true. Maybe you are in one of the SG churches that hasn’t been as effected by the doctrine and polity of the Big Guys. All we really want is for SG members to consider that what we post just might be true. It seems like you are here to do just that. If, in turn, you see something posted that is not a fact, or just doesn’t jive with what you’ve seen, we want to hear! When people drive by and throw their bombs (like, this is gossip!), it is hard to reason with them. I think you sound like a reasonable person. Please feel free to ask your questions, or give your comments. We are here to learn, as well.
Bree, welcome to the Refuge!
February 2nd, 2009 at 2:07 pm
Carole,
I thought Arizona was going to beat the Stealers! That come-back was amazing. If only Warner hadn’t thrown an interception when the Cardinals were on the 1 yard line. I’ll bet he is kicking himself today…ah well, another football season gone by. Now what will we do on Sunday afternoons? My hubby is getting me into UFC. Maybe we will have to watch the taped ones. My whole fam comes together for football, and most of them like UFC. I still reserve my opinion, especially when the blood starts spurting…bleh.
February 2nd, 2009 at 2:16 pm
RT and Bree,
There is a verse that says, “In your anger, do not sin”. We can also assume that, when Jesus was throwing the money changers out of the temple, he was pretty mad at how they were taking advantage of His sheep. I’m sure He wasn’t calling the Pharisees “white-washed tombs” in a non-angry, sing-song voice. Then there is Paul, who tells the legalists to emasculate themselves, or calls them dogs (that is in Phillipians). There is a reason for anger, but not for our own selfish ends, I think. Sometimes, if I am battling a weakness in my life, like fear, anger at the enemy of my soul makes me fight to think God’s way. If I am angry because one of my kids broke a lamp, that is not a justifiable anger. If I yell at them, in my anger, I have sinned.
So maybe we are speaking of two different types of anger – justifiable anger at injustice and the enemy, and selfish anger that comes when we don’t get our way or are impatient with God, etc. Does that make sense?
February 2nd, 2009 at 2:26 pm
Bree,
Just another thought – you aren’t a sinner when God looks at you. He only sees a saint, because of what Jesus did for you. I think we should all begin calling ourselves “saints” because that is how we are spoken of in the NT. It would be more profitable for our souls to stop thinking so much about sin, and think more on Jesus, His goodness, His joy, His great love for us. Wouldn’t that just make us love Him more? However, the legalists fear preaching this too much because they think we will all move into license. They fear loosing control of us. So they keep us under the old law. What they fail to understand is that grace will keep us from continually sinning. Where the law is preached, sin will abound! Where grace is taught, we only love Jesus more. If it causes someone to move into license, then he was never of Christ in the first place! This all makes so much sense to my tweety brain. Why don’t these Big Guys understand?
February 2nd, 2009 at 5:48 pm
Canary,
I missed this, but sort of replied to it anyway over on the other thread.
Yes, yes and yes! I completely agree with you. The gospel message–that’s exactly where it’s at, where SGM has gone all wrong.
Thanks for such a concise rendering of the gospel according to Saint Paul. We have to pray for the Big Guys eyes to be opened. Only God can do it. He can use us, yes, but His Spirit has to work in their hearts. You know, I’ve been “fed” more in the last couple of weeks at the blogs and by digging into the Word myself. I’m so thankful that God’s working here.
Bree
February 2nd, 2009 at 5:49 pm
Oh, and regarding your first email to me, it does make sense. It’s what I was trying to say.
February 2nd, 2009 at 5:52 pm
O.K., there was one more email up there. : ) Thanks for the welcome.
February 2nd, 2009 at 5:54 pm
Bree,
I am thankful, too!
I was once a huge Pharisee. The Lord, in His absolute mercy, opened my eyes one day. I had been crying out to Him for months, asking if this was all there was to my Christian experience. I was so dissatisfied. My soul was drowning. I was HUNGRY.
The Lord met me on that day, and revealed to me what a Pharisee I was. In His day on earth, I would have been one of the men (though I am female) standing on the temple steps, condemning Him. Now, by His grace, I am His disciple, willing to follow wherever He leads.
If Jesus could lead me out of my legalism, He can lead anyone out.
February 2nd, 2009 at 7:24 pm
I like this, canary,
“Sometimes, if I am battling a weakness in my life, like fear, ANGER AT THE ENEMY OF MY SOUL MAKES ME FIGHT TO THINK GOD’S WAY. If I am angry because one of my kids broke a lamp, that is not a justifiable anger. If I yell at them, in my anger, I have sinned.”
And this,
“So maybe we are speaking of two different types of anger – justifiable anger at injustice and the enemy, and selfish anger that comes when we don’t get our way or are impatient with God, etc.”
February 2nd, 2009 at 7:27 pm
Canary,
All of the “Your Story” posts are under the tab “Your Story” at the top of the main page.
As far as the Cardinals… I really wanted to see Warner win it, as I think this could possibly be his last year in football. But the Steelers pulled it out, and I’m happy for them… they earned it!
I still wish my Dolphins had been there, but there’s always next year! 
February 2nd, 2009 at 7:46 pm
Hey Carole! I was rooting for the Cardinals as well. I grew up a Dolphins fan (Shula, Morris, Czonka, Greasy) but I’m starting to like the Falcons now, especially with their talented new quarterback.
February 2nd, 2009 at 7:56 pm
I kinda thought you might be a closet Dolphin fan!
Atlanta is a good team… ya gotta be loyal to your own…
February 2nd, 2009 at 7:57 pm
Gracie: 7:24–excellent post!
February 3rd, 2009 at 4:15 am
Welcome Bree!!
Good post, Saint Canary!
February 3rd, 2009 at 4:24 am
Hi INC!
I’ve been reading all the posts, but haven’t had time to comment.
{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{ INC }}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}
You guys are really making me think! (about the note taking situation!)
February 3rd, 2009 at 12:38 pm
Thanks, Carole, for the “my story”tip. I didn’t realize I had to click HERE. Duh…