The “end” they are seeking is uniformity, no division, no mess that would spread through their organization.  I believe that is the goal because I have seen it happening.  People’s ideas, hearts, feelings, thoughts are not as important as keeping all the members on one page, the page that the leaders insist on.  Any deviation causes them to over react, to silence dissent, while appearing to their supporters as being humble and wise.  Look how quickly the Ches leaders called a meeting when they thought the three were going to send out an email.  Apparently, these leaders jumped the gun, and went behind the couples’ backs to keep the mess from spreading.  To not even notify the couples about the meeting was pure cowardice, and a fast attempt to put a finger in the dike.  This is very bad form.

I still think church discipline will be the end result, as the leaders pull together to stabalize their church.  There is simply too much for them to loose otherwise.  Calous?  Yes, I guess.  We’ve all seen it before.  That is why we are here.  Could it be possible that this meeting on the 25th will be different?  Again, I hope I’m wrong, because it would be wonderful to see the Holy Spirit bring unity. 

Yes! Reformation is not only possible, it is God’s heart.  Opening the eyes to the blind, healing the sick, breaking strongholds, setting captives free, the ministry of reconciliation, preparing for Himself a pure, spotless, bride! God is at work here.  This is not about he said/we said, or we’re right and they’re wrong.  Each of us would do well to pray fervently for His perspective (His kingdom come, his will be done on earth as it is in heaven).

That being said, leaders of SGCC and all across SGM’s, from the leadership teams all the way down, I implore you!  Consider what is coming to light.  These blogs are filled with your brothers and sisters in Christ who have spent years laboring with you for the sake of the gospel.  Godly, mature, passionate, people eager to run hard after God, who desire to see communities transformed through the gospel expressed and lived out in local church’s, are stumbling and falling, left battered and bleeding as a direct result of some of the practices common to SGM. 

Reformation here, within SGM?  Only if there are eyes to see, and ears to hear, and hearts that understand, and then, they would turn, and the Lord will heal.   That turning will be easily discernible to those who have the mind of Christ.  You won’t have to squint your eyes, or have to sift through the all too common cliche’s or “SGM-isms”.  The old “you’re not believing the best” will be absent because the best will be obvious and believable. This is the tenor of what should be hoped for. 

Please join with me in lifting up our brothers and sisters at SGCC, all across SGM, and for each of us who share these experiences, for the flood gates of God’s grace to open and rain down on each of us.

Well Greg left a good explanation of how SGM uses  “lack of gifting” for something else they really don’t want to say.  It certainly does appear that these men at SGC showed more of a “lack of gifting” in a number of areas than a lot of other pastors.  It will be interesting to see what happens. 

Also, it was sad to read your story of what happened to you and your husband.  It is sad that that this is such repeating pattern within SGM.  Unfortunately the leadership doesn’t do well with even honest questioning. I really wonder how they can serve with a clear conscience when they do these sort of things?  Maybe they think the end justifies the means?

This only emboldens CJ and company, who feel that this place has no Biblical reason to exist, since nothing that happens within SGM is any of my business.

I guess I have a different view of the Body.

We can’t look to national leaders for help. We must act on our own, by God’s grace.

I’m going to be praying for clarity and also for a way out for everyone. God is creative. I know He can do this! In fact, what my friends have done reminds me so much of Martin Luther pinning his theses on the Whittenburg door. Reformation IS possible.

Thanks for responding to my question.  There seems to be no answer, right?  I’ll just have to scratch my head and wonder…

As far as Esther and the three couples…being called enemies of the church doesn’t bode well for the meeting on the 25th.  We will have to wait and see.  Who knows, maybe everyone there will end up crying and repenting and hugging.  Wouldn’t that be great?  Though not the norm.  The norm will be to get everyone into a uniform mindset (that is, what the Pastors want them to think), including the dissenters, who will have to drop their case and fall in line, or get ousted eventually.  I believe, based on past behavior by SGM, that there will be some sort of church discipline.  Personally, I’m hoping for the hugging and crying.  Is there any reason to expect a different outcome than the usual “my way or the highway” routine?  Gosh, I hope so.

I for one have full confidence and faith that God is moving in the hearts and lives of all He has called unto himself.  For those within SGM, and those beyond, God is using all things to work together for the good.  I truly believe that these things coming to light is a blessing for people on either side of these offenses.  Do I believe these pastor’s are taking their heart’s to task, earnestly desiring to humble themselves before God and man, YES!  Do I believe that we all stumble and fall and that it is God’s lavish grace and kindness that leads us to repentance?  YES!  Can I know the hearts or motives of these men, either now or when they were exercising their authority through counsel or any other aspect of their role as leaders?  Absolutely not!  There are questions like these and others, that if we are acting in accordance with our confession of faith, we must answer in light of the truth of God’s word. 

As a firefighter/paramedic, there is a “cardinal rule”, or a governing philosophy that trumps all others.  It is simply “to do no harm”.  When I am called upon to render services to people requiring or requesting assistance, and through my actions or interventions “do harm” to them, I am accountable.  Whether the harm is due to acts of ccommission or omission, regardless of my intent or motive, I am held responsible and accountable to those actions.

While I can think of no single specific scripture that speaks to this (maybe some of you can help me), the scriptures which speak of being above reproach (1 Tim) and blameless (Titus) do weigh in and inform us here.  The privilege of aspiring to be an overseer is indeed a noble one!  Obviously, this comes with the awareness and caution that not many of us should presume to be teachers, because those who teach (handling God’s word) will be judged more strictly.  Let’ not forget, these leaders are stewards, given gifts to serve/feed/care for/equip God’s people, his bride.  So, with that charge, “do no harm” definitely applies.  Herein, in my humble opinion, is part of all this that needs addressed.  Has harm been done?  Unquestionably, undeniably, yes!  Not just here with Esther, but in many instances, in various locations across SGM (a fraction of the full measure of those represented on these blogs).  No matter the intent or motivation (pure, wrought with sin, or plain ignorance), these leaders have done harm, the effects of which are not easily measurable. 

This harm is what the men involved here at SGCC, and those who have perpetrated harmful practices across SGM, must give an account.   There should be an expectation of all those hurt or offended or wronged, what they can identify as “fruit in keeping with repentance”.  In other words, discernible, measurable, definitive consequences.

Things will change in SGM because God will have his way.  I personally do not have any bitterness or grudges toward SGM (though I did earlier on, which is to be expected from anyone here who is in the beginning stages, and why people like FF are much more free since she left much longer ago and has worked through many issues).   There are only 2 choices when facing the fact that God is doing something in SGM:  respond in pride or respond in humility.  

I don’t agree with everyone that if the pastors truly repented that they necessarily need to step down, in fact, if every pastor in SGM did this how many pastors would be left?   I think widescale true repentance that comes with major revelation by the Holy Spirit and public confession beginning with C.J., Harvey, etc… on down could totally transform SGM and breath wonderful new life into these churches.   Or they can persist in pride and cover-up of sin, pointing accusatory fingers at the weak and wounded individuals and the ship will sink, maybe slowly, but it will sink while many people dance to pretty music in utter denial of reality.   If the latter happens (and I pray not) then the lifeboats stand ready for those who wish to abandon ship and head for sunny shores. 

The condemnation that some of SGMers feel when you enter into discussion here and elsewhere is probably real to a degree.  I don’t think it’s right, but in light of the condemnation you so aptly dish out I think you should expect it.  It is SGM’s way, and many here have not totally left all SGM ways behind, we are still influenced in varying degrees  by having been immersed in SGM doctrine and culture for so long.  Condemnation is not for you or any of us to wield.  If God has pronounce that he will not condemn us, then we should not condemn and judge one another.  James makes this clear that when we pick up the law to judge our brother we end up condemning ourselves (think Jesus’ words by the same measure you use it will be measured back to you), and then the freeing and hope filled words that follow:  Mercy triumphs over judgement!!!

It is possible to bring truth to light , to call for justice for the oppressed, to address serious matters of sin in our brothers without a spirit of accusation and condemnation.  Will be do this perfectly?  Probably not, but I think there are several on here including Jim and Carole who are doing very well with this and are very humble to acknowledge when they get it wrong.  As for any who may lean toward condemning tones, I know God is faithful and will gently and lovingly restore their souls and bind up their broken hearts, he will shower mercy and grace until all the bitterness is washed away and the life of Jesus flows out freely again.  This goes for all of us, SGMers and exers.   

For those of us who have left, maybe it would be good to read the comments remembering  that not so long ago we were in the same boat, speaking the same words (in our own way)  and would have responded probably in similar ways as one or another.  I read some of the comments and while I reject all condemnation and judgement, guilt, fear and shame, I easily see that a few years back I could have been on here saying the same things, finding it utterly impossible to believe any charges against my beloved leaders. 

I also just want to say that I recognize at times my own tone has been harsh or sarcastic, I am a black and white kind of person.  I won’t tone down the truth, but I will try to make more of an effort to make my love more evident in my words. 

“It is also unconscionable to post letters addressed to 3rd parties without the express consent of the authors. Dismissing that concern with arguments like “a blog is a blog” isn’t much of a defense.”

Where did I defend the posting of the letters by saying “a blog is a blog” ?

I was stating the obvious in regards the diverse opinions of those who post here.

I have asked the same questions.  It certainly seems like what the the pastors in the SGC did are more egregious then the other cases you cite.  It sure is contradictory. 

I also wonder about the 3 couples and Esther.  Even with the pastors admitting their mistakes, I wonder what “hard feelings” will remain with the pastors if they don’t step down.  If it is like the other cases cited, I imagine it won’t be that easy for them.  Thus they probably will have to leave eventually due to feeling shunned or that it isn’t their home any longer.

My opinion is that these counterfeit “apostles” have set up a counterfeit local body with counterfeit “Christian” ideals and counterfeit “Christian” doctrine using counterfeit wisdom and knowledge. What they call loving is truly hurtful. They add to and subtract from Holy Scripture. They say they do not shepherd, yet they do not let the Lord shepherd. Their list of counterfeit feats and ideals grows longer by the year. They claim they repent and yet make no change. They maim the hurt and exalt their own.

Above reproach? Hardly.
Worthy of reproach? Most definitely.

(I realize your question was about pastors – yet the pastors are minions of those in greater authority. Greater authority has hidden behind pastors and make pastors take the blame for edicts passed down from on high. The counterfeit “apostles” are well insulated from any consequences of their false edicts.)

Welcome! I just want to thank you for being willing to come on and stay here to share your opinion.

To all the SGC members on here I just want to say that I will be continuing to pray for you! I pray that God will continue to give you all strength and wisdom as you prepare for your family meeting. I pray that God will continue  to be moving among SGC and SGM.

To everyone on here wouldn’t it be easier to just agree that we disagree? Yes, I know that many of us are still hurt ( I know I do) but we have said we wanted to hear from the other side and Billy is still brave enough to be on here. Though I don’t agree with some of my friends I do appreciate hearing from them. I think right now we just need to be praying…whether we are skeptical (and I would fit this category) about real change happening or whether we think it will happen.  I love you all dearly so please don’t take it any other way

Yes, the pastors made mistakes and have repented to the three couples…supposedly.  Like others have said, repetence doesn’t mean all consequences disolve into dust. 

Were the actions of these pastors “below” reproach? 

Think about…the ENTIRE Pastoral Team of SGCC got it WRONG with the counseling (esp BC) applications to many people (the walking wounded that have already left our church) and doctrine of seperation issue.  These are just two of the nine points laid out in the letter from the three couples to the pastors.  How can this happen to an entire staff…men supposedly annointed by God to lead?  How many other doctrines that they preached from the pulpit in Chesapeake have they gotten wrong?

If the church treasurer of any church mishandles funds, can he be forgiven?  YES!!!   Is he going to keep his job?  NO!!!!!

Does the inability to interpret scripture and lay it out for modern day teachings  disqualify these pastors from pastoral service?

I believe it does.  Wake up, people!

First, my question:  If men like Keith Jacobs and Chris Lutyk (from the Fairfax Church) were loving, kind pastors, yet asked to step down for their lack of “gifting” (I happened to know the Lutyks – I don’t believe the reason – impossible!), yet their churches had no such problems as are being discussed here, then why are pastors allowed to remain who have made such serious mistakes and shown their own lack of “gifting”?  I am very troubled by this.  Can anyone answer this question?  Any still-SGMer’s out there?  I’d like to understand.  I mean, if a big guy like Larry T. is asked to step down because of various character deficiencies (which, to this day, are still purely a matter of opinion), shouldn’t these men join him?  Even offer, out of their own humility, to step down and return to the PC for further training, as Benny Phillips did (whose situation was NOTHING like this)?

A point I would like to make:  my husband and I left PDI in 1997 after having brought up questions about how some things were being run.  We were shocked to be shown the door.  Believe me, we had only respect for our “leaders”, and could not believe the anger they were showing us.  Not just anger, but a little disdain and alot of condescension.  Anyone who knew us (my husband led children’s ministry) would have been shocked as well if we had returned and told them our reasons for leaving.  Instead, we left quietly, telling only one couple of our reasons.  We respected the group.

In the end, three couples, all in our home group, left.  The Pastor went to the HG and, we heard later, apoligized to the group for not handling our situation better.  We received no such apology.  The group was then disbanded.

My point:  from our own experience, and from reading others’ here, SGM does not like messes, nor do they like them to spread.  I believe there is a lack of integrity in how questions and such are handled because the leaders fear the messes, like division, lack of control, etc.  Now, it is my  meager opinion that Chesapeake has become a huge mess, because it has been made so public.  The Pastors will show repentance to the group as a whole to avoid a church division.  But will they show a true turn-about to those who have been labeled “enemies of the church”?  Those words were not spoken lightly.  These men do measure their words.  I believe this to be an ominous foreshadowing of what is to come on the 25th.  This will most likely be a church discipline meeting for the couples involved.  I hope I’m wrong but, if not, Esther and the three couples, we are here for you.

Esther and the three will have to cave on their principles in order to remain.  They will have to back down on what they saw as the truth.  Maybe I should be saying nothing about any of this, as the situation might be to big for my little bird-brain.  I just know what it was like to be manipulated and disregarded and then shown the door, so that uniformity could be protected (funny thing – it never crossed our minds to try to divide anyone!).  Unless SGM has changed mightily since we left, uniformity is what the leaders will be grasping for, no matter the “collateral damage” that will be involved. This breaks my whittle tweety heart.  Is their any reason that I shouldn’t be pessimistic about this outcome?  I will definitely be praying.

Oh Lord, do not bring uniformity to your church, your people. Bring unity!!!  This I pray with a full heart.

Thanks for listening, everyone.  I sincerely hope I am wrong.

Billy, I just think there’s no sense wondering what they MEANT in the letter when we can now just ask Arlynn to tell us since we know she’s posted here… But again, as I say that, I do feel like it’s not my business. I’m not in an SGM church and haven’t been for ten years.

I do feel hopeful about all this. I think it’s possible for reconciliation to occur if God sweeps in and releases people from these various areas of bondage. I always leap in and offer opinions when I should maybe let those involved work things out. But ten years is a long time. I can see things that perhaps others close to the situation can’t. So if you want some perspective after the fact, I’m here. The main thing to remember is that each one of us is answerable to God and Him alone. Whatever He leads you to do — go or stay — is your choice. But I want it to be an informed choice.

If someone murders your child and then says please forgive me-does that mean that you can’t go to the police to report the incident?

You can forgive the murderer and even empathize, but would it be harping on their sin to go and testify in court that the murderer of your child actually did murder?

Forgiveness is not a get out of jail free card for consequences.  I can commit sexual sin and get AIDS, God will forgive me and I can know I’m forgiven-it doesn’t mean that I don’t have AIDS-I still live with the consequences (though-not eternally, Thank God)..  do you see my point?

I’ve been thinking about you guys and hoping you are all right….no need to fill us in until you’re up for it, or not at all-just wanted to let you know you’re in my thoughts and prayers.

peace-mm