The following post is an email sent this morning by our friend “Esther”. She asked me to post a copy here. I think we all have something to learn from her wise words.
__________________________________________________________
Steve Shank, Dave Harvey, Gene Emerson, CJ Mahaney:
Thank you for writing back Steve. I do forgive you for adding to my trial, Steve, however, I believe the real issues are much more serious than you describe in your e-mail back to me below:
“Recently I received a document from VB that informed me an e mail response I sent to Keith also went to you. I was not even aware of this until I read about it in the document. (Thus the reason I have not tried to get back to you until now). Please know how very sorry I am for having contributed to your trial. I understand how it would have been offensive, and for that I am deeply sorry, and want to ask you to please forgive me. Since I now live in Phoenix AZ., my intention was to remove myself from a situation I did not have the details, and entrust it to those regionally who would be in better proximity to help.”
My appeals for help went out in many ways. I even spoke to your wife, Janis, when she was here for the ladies’ meeting in I believe it was September, and appealed to her as well as Joanna Breault. I never heard anything from that conversation with your wife. I then began to appeal for help from each of you on the Apostolic Team.
Even after each of you on the Apostolic Team received my cry for help with the very serious list of grievances I stated against the pastoral team of Sovereign Grace Church of Chesapeake, not one of you had the discernment as to how serious this situation really was. (I wish I could share a recorded message from my daughter’s cell phone from my husband cursing and threatening to harm us if I didn’t come bail him out of jail). If any of you wish to hear it, I will share it. None of you, including the pastors of Sovereign Grace Church of Chesapeake ever entered my pain to understand how the counsel I was receiving could really endanger my children and me.
I am certain that the Apostle Paul would have something to say to each of you if he were here today. Each one of you has named yourself an Apostle of God over the churches of Sovereign Grace Ministries. It is a very serious matter for an Apostle to take such a position over the souls of God’s people. Where is the “Fear of God?”
It is a serious matter for the individual Saints (members of the church) to not have their voices taken seriously. If you look in 1 Corinthians 1:11, the Apostle Paul had apparently received a report from members of the Church at Corinth. Apparently it even came from a woman (Chloe’s people), not the pastor of the church. Paul took these matters serious enough to entertain the details and then to follow up with a letter to the church (not just the pastor). Here is an excerpt from scripture: “For it has been reported to me by Chloe’s people that there is quarreling among you, my brothers.” 1 Corinthians 1:11. Paul took it very serious. We weren’t just quarreling here, my pastors were changing doctrine and applying pressure and the threat of church discipline to myself and other women in the church. I couldn’t get any of your attention on the Apostolic Team.
Dave Harvey, your email to me and I quote, “Just wanted to let you know that I have received and reviewed all of your documents. My counsel would be that you take the step Keith Beault requested and meet with him to hear his perspective and counsel. Meeting face to face is a much superior approach to swapping emails and I suspect Tim Lane and Paul Tripp would both strongly concur with that step.”
This response sounds somewhat uncaring as to the seriousness of the grievances that were being brought to your attention. It also sounds rather professional, unlike the heart of an Apostle who should be very concerned for my care and safety as the sheep in your care. It did not indicate any real belief that what I was bringing to you had any merit for serious concern. I had already been meeting face to face with the pastors and was not being heard. It wasn’t until I applied the pressure of making the Apostolic Team aware and the pastors at the Chesapeake Church aware that I had done so, as well as the many meetings face to face that the 3 couples were having both individually and eventually together that things began to change. That is very sad.
The Apostle Paul did not consider the communication by Chloe’s people as gossip nor slander. In fact, he took it very serious and apparently investigated and finally responded to the whole church directly in the form of a letter. This would be the equivalent of a letter, or an email today, or maybe a visit. The Apostle Paul had no problem keeping all things in the light before the entire church. There were no hidden meetings and private handling of matters that involved the Body of Christ. The accounts of church problems are published in scripture even to this day so that each of us is aware of the details. He obviously trusted the maturity of the Saints to handle the truth.
I do not believe my voice was taken serious by any of you on the Apostolic Team. I have huge concern for a movement whose Apostles are now “too far away” in another state, who feel that they should remove themselves from a situation that they do not have the details, and entrust it to those regionally who apparently also feel the same way, and then pass the individual back to the very ones who are offending them. There was no one to help. I felt all alone.
If it had not been for 3 couples who were willing to lay down their reputations, and my own father who is 78 years old and a very strong, wise, servant of God, who persisted in confronting to protect my children and me, I do not know what would be happening to me today. This is very serious.
My concern is for the “lack of discernment” and the “lack of soberness” that each of you on the Apostolic
Team are now exhibiting. Where is the “FEAR OF GOD?”
The Ministry of Apostles:
In 1 Corinthians 4:1-2: “This is how one should regard us, as servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God. Moreover, it is required of stewards that they be found trustworthy.”
There is no process in place for individual members in the churches of Sovereign Grace Ministry to appeal for help from you. How do we get our voices heard? Is it really wise to put so much trust in men that you have placed in leadership and not believe individual members when they appeal to you for help?
In reality I am but one sheep who it may seem has very little affect on the entire Body of Sovereign Grace Ministries, but to God I am “the apple of His eye.” I wasn’t standing up for just myself for I knew that my trial represented something much bigger. There apparently has been “abusive counseling” going on in this movement for many years. Somehow, God’s people have not been heard by you. I believe God is addressing this from His throne. You all have the opportunity to listen, humble yourselves, and revisit your governmental structure. Is it safe for the future? What happens when each of you are dead?” Will the churches in your care really have the protection they need? Is there appropriate accountability in this movement now that you are so large and even extending to other countries? Will doctrine really be protected when there are no local eyes watching closely? Are pastoral teams really able to remain objective and truthful with themselves when it is themselves who are in sin? Will they really contact you and confess that problems are arising early on? Are young pastors really fully tested yet? Isn’t the wisdom of older men and pastors needed as a covering so that the young pastors do not have to learn the hard way at the expense of the sheep in their care? Should any pastor be trusted that he will never go off track? Do pastors on pastoral teams really feel the freedom to disagree with one another without fear of being removed and tagged rebellious, prideful, or not a team member?
Please know that my heart nor the hearts of these 3 couples who have been involved has never been divisive.
We are concerned for the sheep who have left the church with bleeding hearts. We are also concerned for the
future protection of the sheep. Do you not know that you will be held accountable for them?
Here in Chesapeake, Virginia, we were in real danger. Praise God, the pastors were stopped. But, the concern
still remains. We also are concerned that these men have disqualified themselves. The whole process we followed was done as much as possible with adherence to scripture. There were more than 3 witnesses who brought charges to you. Isn’t there a need for a time of testing for these men to prove themselves in their repentance and for them to restore the ability for the members to trust their leadership? This was not a light matter. It has been the practice of this movement to remove men in leadership for much less charges (lack of gifting, personal matters of children in their home who are out of control, etc.) Weren’t these men themselves out of control? How can this be a light matter and so easily dismissed as light sin? If you had involved yourselves earlier on, would you possibly see this differently had it been your own handling of the matter instead of us? Has this possibly clouded your view of how the matter needs to be handled now?
Maybe you should come to Virginia each of you and meet with me and some of the other women involved and hear the details. You might leave weeping. It was a horrible situation for me to endure personally. I have wept and wailed before God crying out to Him to defend me. He has done us. I hope that you understand my heart here. I love my church. I love the people. I love truth. I love my God.
I am praying for each of you that the Holy Spirit will open the eyes of your hearts and enlighten you to see the truth and seriousness of what is being revealed. There are many matters coming into the light. Please take a long hard look at them.
The following letter was sent to the entire membership of SGCC at 6:06 PM on December 20 via email by the SGCC Financial Advisory Team. Here are a couple of excerpts:
“1. 1 Timothy 5: 19-21 provides instruction about the process to be used when bringing a charge against an elder/pastor. This involves an appeal to apostolic ministry for evaluation and correction as warranted, as opposed to an appeal directly to the congregation.”
OBSERVATION: Does this appear to be an accurate interpretation of scripture? Is there anywhere in scripture that supports that the apostolic ministry controls each individual church in such a way that the Church which as you taught us for many years is the People not the building, does not have any responsibility in judging cases? If the Apostolic Team doesn’t come and doesn’t address the problem, wouldn’t the “Church” have to take this responsibility to address it?
In fact, 1 Corinthians 6:1-5 states: “When one of you has a grievance against another, does he dare go to law before the unrighteous instead of the saints?”
Note: Are the “Saints” actually the “Church” which as you taught us is the “people?”
“Or do you not know that the Saints will judge the world? And if the world is to be judged by you, are you incompetent to try trivial cases? Do you not know that we are to judge angels? How much more, then, matters pertaining to life! So if you have such cases, why do you lay them before those who have no standing in the church? I say this to your shame. Can it be that there is no one among you wise enough to settle a dispute between the brothers…”
Note: Is Paul saying that the Apostolic Team is going to come to each church to judge matters and cases? Is he encouraging the Saints, the Church to take this responsibility. I do believe the Elders (Pastors) and
Apostles play a very important role in overseeing these situations, but shouldn’t the Saints, the Church be involved and provide their wisdom too? Shouldn’t the Saints, the Church be involved when it is a case against an Elder, Pastor?
Note: Doesn’t the Word say that the Saints will judge angels not just the Apostolic Team which I do not see is actually mentioned in scripture? Also, aren’t the witnesses who are entertaining an accusation against an Elder, Pastor, most likely among the Saints or Church who are able to see closely? Won’t they need to have a proper method for bringing such accusations to someone requiring them to listen and to investigate? Do we have such a process in place in Sovereign Grace Ministries?
1 Timothy 5:19-21 it states:
“Do not admit a charge against an elder except on the evidence of two or three witnesses (which we did have). As for those who persist in sin, rebuke them in the presence of all, so that the rest may stand in fear (Who are the rest – could it be the other Elders, Pastors as well as the “Church?” Is the word “all” here the “Church?” And are the words “so that the rest” possibly the other Elders, Pastors so that they will stand IN FEAR?
Note: This is so important because without it, The FEAR OF GOD is being diminished in our movement for both the Church, the Saints, as well as the Elders, Pastors. This in itself is a FEARFUL thing. For the “FEAR OF GOD” is the beginning of wisdom.”
Respectfully submitted,
“Esther”
Esther, my sister,
You are a very strong woman, and I commend you!
I sincerely hope you are finding a place of peace and rest in a gathering of the Body in which you can worship freely and without fear and control.
I can appreciate Esthers invitation to these men. When their done, could they stop by a few of the florida churches and clean up some of the devistation down south.
clap clap clap clap
Esther, this is me standing up, applauding you. Well done, courageous sister, well done.
Esther has seriously and soberly thought through everything and expressed herself so well. May her words be taken seriously and soberly.
I echo Reformed Teacher’s words.
Charlie, I’m in one of the Florida SGM churches.
Could you email me at the-truth-about-sgm AT gmail DOT com? I’d like to hear from you on your experiences.
We’ve got ourselves a brave woman.
Imagine that.
Esther,
Great letter!!!! It’s sad, that they have used their own doctrine against you. I love how you have used scripture they use for their doctrine to point out the error of their ways (basically using their own words to hold their feet to the fire).
This is interesting news. It looks like Shank is trying to excuse his inaction on relying on the one person who supposedly “oversees” this church. Good Esther points out the problems with reliance on one person.
If nothing else at least there is some admission of wrong done on the part of SGM which many indicate rarely happens.
It will be interesting to see how all of this goes now. Maybe they will reconsider their charge of “mutiny” on the 3 couples?
Esther,
How could they not’ve listened. How could they have ignored your heart? How could your pastors have seen your children and not cared about what could’ve happened? This all baffles me, and I have experienced some of it, too. They all sound like the guys who came upon the beat-up man before the Good Samaritan and just passed him by. :/
Oh, Steve, he’s just playing weasel word games. :/
would they have passed him by or rebuked him for bleeding? (Surely it would have been a sign of SOME sin.)
Awww, Esther. I’m so sorry. I don’t think these folks are going to be able to change. Steve Shank started that church. He and Janis know you personally. I just can’t imagine even from far away turning away a friend from my past that way. I don’t get it. But, you know, it could happen to any one of us. There is a sly enemy pacing like a roaring lion, seeking who he may devour. We need to pray for these men. They’ve gone astray.
I know it’s tough, but you are going to have to leave and find support and comfort elsewhere. You can’t force them to stop muddying the waters just as you go to drink (Ezekiel). I admire you for trying, though, because I can tell your heart is for them to avoid judgment for what they did by repenting fully. That’s the broken heart of a true lover of God.
This reminds me so much of Maranatha Ministries. But they repented. Anyone know what happened to all those churches? The ones under Bob Mumford?
FF:
Most of the maranatha churches reformed as a new denomination called Every Nation Ministries. Rice Broocks is now the leader of the ministry and Larry Tomczak is now a staff member with EN.
I have heard that some of the same issues remain in EN in some of the churches but generally speaking it is significantly better than when Bob Weiner. I was in Maranatha in college. Let’s just say Bob had some control issues.
Dear Big A’s and Little A’s (or all men listed in the title post above)
I truly hope and pray that you do not try to make this go away by trying to slam Esther more into the ground. You should have protected her not only as her leadership but as men. When I was at SGM I read Recovering Biblical Manhood and Womanhood. One of the things it talked about was how all men are responsible to protect women beyond just their wives. Hence, why in our society men will open the door for all women (not just their wives); or wait while they enter an elevator first. I do think each one of you no matter where you lived were asked for help and as men (even if you didn’t think you should as leaders), as men, you should have stepped up to the plate. You have a choice now. To make this go away by doing what you often do – blame the victim - slander Esther – or you can do what you should have done at first which is step up and be men. I pray you do what God tells you and not just what “one” of you declare will be done.
Oh Esther,
That was so well-said. God bless you for your courage and tenacity, yet kindness and care at the same time. You have allowed the Lord to do a deep work in you through all of your struggles and it truly shows.
Charlie,
I’m sorry, but sadly, not surprised to hear of devastation in Florida. Our experience was in Florida as well. I hope the shaking does indeed spread down south. Blessings!
I have both the honor and privledge to be in Chesapeake and know Esther. She is by all means the definition if you look up “woman of God” her name would be there. SHe is a kind and gentle spirit, but may I say YOU ROCK ESTHER!!!!!
Dear Mr Shank,
Please remove yourself from the position of power that you maintain where you have the ability to ruin many lives.
You and your puppets under you leave behind you a wake of destruction.
Please just move on.
Gracie,
Thank you.
Esther reminds me of the woman in the parable of the unjust judge. I am so impressed with her persistence in calling the pastors out for their negligence and abuse.
Thankyou, Refuge, for the availability to communicate with ‘the saints’. Esther, Thankyou for your example of courageously standing on the Word of God,and obeying God to bring Truth/Light to His people. For many years I have watched you walk steadfastly,in every storm—quietly, on the ‘outside.’ But always abiding in the shelter of the Most High God. God is annointing your voice,for truly you have exemplified “She opens her mouth with wisdom,and in her tongue is the law of kindness.” (Prov 31:26)…We continue to interceede for the peoples in the church in Chesapeake………that they be delivered from strongholds,awaken, and take courage to see the Truth….For those who interceede,here is a ‘marker’: “The Lord ABHORS dishonest scales,but accurate weights are His delight. When pride comes,then comes disgrace,but with humility comes wisdom. The integrity of the upright guides them,but the unfaithful are destroyed by their DUPLICITY.” (Prov 11:1-3).
Dave and Steve-
What exactly do you do as an Apostle, if all you do in a situation like Esther’s, is keep refusing to assist and keep pointing her back to the very pastors that are sinning against her by their neglect?
Timeline-
Esther and children are abused by husband in church
Esther asks pastors for help
No help is offered and church discipline threatened (to Esther)
Esther then appeals to Apostles over local pastors for help
Help is not offered and Esther is told to go back to local pastors for help
No help is given except to inform Esther she would be sinning and under church discipline if she separates from her abusive husband ….
So what exactly do you do in all your Apostolic glory? If a woman in threat of physical harm can not look for help from her pastors or her pastor’s pastor-then what is the use of an Apostle who won’t lead the people he says he leads?
Dave-maybe at your next speaking engagement on marriage, you can include Esther’s story as an example of how effective it is to be a part of the local church, for their marriages. You could even include it at your next Celebration ,when you want to show the church how important it is to have Apostles of such character, serving the couples of your movement…
Esther-I admire your bravery to address these men, with the truth and seriousness of scripture. Thank you for speaking out.
Musicman,
I love your comment to Dave Harvey! Your entire comment is dead on.
I only know what Steve did. Not knowing that Esther was cc’d on the email, he told his underlings that he would not read emails in reference to Esther, and would delete them. Please correct me if I’m wrong, Esther, as I haven’t seen his response to you.
Better yet, Apostle Shank, how about YOU send me a note or (gasp) actually address the issue here.
jim@sgmrefuge.com – phone number-321-five zero four-four five four two.
You might be surprised to discover that I’m not interested in only posting one side of every story. SGM’s practice of non-response makes this a very one sided blog.
Yes, Steve. This does not sound like the Steve Shank who was my pastor ten years ago at Southside Church, formerly The Harbor. It’s okay to come on here and tell everyone you’ve been feeling dry and unanointed lately and have said and done things contrary to the Spirit. We have ALL faced several years of dryness and wilderness, the entire body of Christ has. Every denomination. If only you would respond here with tears of repentance, it would mean so much to so many.
Whenever I flub up with the kids (and this was taught to me at SGM) I go to them and tell them I’m sorry. I tell them I totally messed up and it was 100% my fault, not theirs. The brokenness of my repentance brings a light back into their eyes. It draws them back to Jesus. I would love to see you guys plow through the messages here and even though emotions are raw and some here have said things in their pain that they might have said a little more gently otherwise, fall on your knees before these precious sheep and tell them how sorry you are. You personally, Steve. As the man of God I knew you to be. Not Steve Shank the apostle, but Steve Shank, the guy who cares about Esther’s family, whose daughter played with Esther’s daughter. I don’t know for sure who the three couples are. I only know one of them. But I suspect that one of the others may be the folks who bought your old house. You have connections to these families, Steve! Please let us hear from you — or if not us here on this message board, let Esther and the others in Chesapeake hear from you.
Charlie,
Would you please emai me as I have questions about Florida? I have friedns who are thinking of moving and I dont know anything about the churches. Do you mean there is the same “thread” there too? ANd if so, in what churches there? I just want to know so I can start asking better and accurate questions. Thank you for your help. Again, this not to “gossip or slander”, this is so I may investigate the church and ask them questions to have a “both sides” information plate.
Thank you,
journey girl
journeygirltruth@hotmail.com
Freedom Fighter,
I certainly don’t know who you are and don’t know if I knew you while you were a member at Soutside Church, now Sovereign Grace Church Chesapeake. I now wish I had, though. You speak alot of truth with godly wisdom. Go girl!
I’m a former member of one of the caregroups that was shattered by the “firing” of two of these men at the invitation-only meeting on Saturday, Dec 20 where the pastoral staff and Gene Emerson, by all accounts, slandered these three fine couples and proved they DIDN’T want to ever want to be corrected, despite claims to the contrary.
People, I wouldn’t get too hopeful over this family meeting on 25 Jan. I suspect it will be another SGCC whitewash where rightful knowledge for the flock is camoflaged by the word “gossip.” We have already been informed last Sunday (19 Jan) what the pastors “discovered” while “on their faces” in prayer at their recent pastoral retreat, a retreat that undoubtedly cost more than the benevolence cited in one of the points in the letter to the pastors by the three couples.
My spouse and I, like alot of other people, are prepared to vote with our feet if this meeting is something designed to sweep current critical issues under the rug. Peace and prayers to you all.
Live Wire,
Welcome! Well said.
Live Wire,
What did they “discover” while “on their faces” at the retreat?
Live wire said, “We have already been informed last Sunday (19 Jan) what the pastors “discovered” while “on their faces” in prayer at their recent pastoral retreat”
Oh, please, please, please tell me that they have discovered that they are a bunch of overfed shepherds, feeding off their flocks. That they are a bunch of overgrown babies with serious mother/father issues. That they have tiny…er… large inadequacies in their lives which cause them to lord over the weak and the trusting. That they are sorry and so moved to despair when they saw the wickedness of their ways that they considered hari-cari, but the Lord brought them back and now they are not only going to change their behaviour and their foolish way of looking at things, but that they are going now take on the financial support of all those in the church who are in need, will give up their mcmansions (if they got ‘em), move into humble houses and teach their children what life is like as a normal person so their poor kids don’t end up big ole wankers like they are.
oh, please, please, please tell me that that is what happened!
Welcome, Live Wire.
Thanks, Live Wire. It just occurred to me that I’ve never even mentioned my name! I was a lot younger when I went to church with you all, so you may not recognize me from the photo. I’m Megan Hoyt. We joined the church because Steve Z had been saying such great things about it while I was at grad school with him. I did think it was a great church. Something changed when Larry T. left. It changed swiftly and decidedly and determinedly… On purpose, in other words.
Whatever it was that happened to CJ just before that time needs to be covered in prayer. He needs our prayers. (As I typed that, I thought, “Well, Jeffrey Dahmer needed prayer, too!”) I don’t mean that in an ugly way. I mean, each and every one of us has a blind spot or two based on our upbringing, our past hurts, our life experiences, etc. We are not a whole body without all our parts! Somewhere along the way, CJ was wounded or something and there was a chink in his armor, an opening for deception to get in. I know I’m being all spiritual about it, but just think of all the time you spent in your SGM church before realizing something was wrong. What woundedness made you vulnerable to such an organization? That same thing — or something graver — led the leaders to build walls around the law and walls around the walls that were around the law. Then suddenly, they find themselves full-blown Pharisees. Was that their original intent? NO! Was it the intent of the Pharisees of Jesus’ time? NO! Did Jesus give them the opportunity to repent? Yes, indeed. Some of the teachers of the law did repent. Nicodemus?
I was praying about all this again this morning and Isaiah 58 kept coming to mind. We all need to pray for the oppressed to go free and included in that opression and in my prayers will be CJ Mahaney and Steve Shank. And the others I don’t know by name.
The three couples were not slandered at the meeting and have never been slandered or maligned publicly.
We have not yet been informed what the the pastoral team discovered while on their faces That will likely be a topic addressed at the family meeting.
No one has been accused of gossip, at least not publicly, even though the charge would certainly be accurate in many cases.
The retreat was held at a house owned by a church member–no charge.
Remind me again who exactly is being publicly slandered and maligned?
Barbaric, our friends were told the pastors warned people that they are now to be considered “slanderers and enemies of the church.” Did they not say that at the meeting? I would love to find out that wasn’t said as it’s hurt me a lot to hear these dear friends accused of such things when what they really wanted was to help Esther. You can email me privately if you’d like. creativepowerhouse@gmail.com .
I don’t think anyone here has suggested that our friends (the couples in question) were slandered. The issue was that they were being called slanderers.
Also, Barbaric, there is a fine line between maligning someone and speaking up about their actions when their actions are wrong. If I accused President Obama of being in favor of partial birth abortion, that might appear to be a stretch. But the truth is, he has said he thinks the ban on it was a bad idea. Am I maligning him when I repeat that information here? It’s true information, you see. As barbaric as your name, but totally true. (And I am NOT using this example to start a political debate. Please!!! That would be terrible.)
B.Y.
I’m sorry to tell you that your words are wasted.
Speculation is what this is all about.
Also, you are never allowed to mention the words slander or gossip (unless you are talking about “the bad guys”), because those words make buzzers go off in their heads, and then they automatically classify you as a kool-aid chugging SGM Robot.
They have silently developed two different sets of rules, and they do not let you play by theirs.
They are allowed to accuse, guess, imply, identify sin, and so on.
You are not allowed to do any of those things, or even point out unsupported assertions, or gaps in logic, or appeal to reason in any way.
You are allowed to respond emotionally, however, as long as it is against SGM. They will let you in on that one.
Also, they do not understand rhetorical questions, so you should rephrase your last sentence to be less confusing.
Billy and BY.
Words are never wasted here. I was told that the purpose of the December 20 meeting was to discuss the sins of the 3 couples.
Was I misinformed?
Billy, I’m sorry that you have the perception you have of this site. I’m interested in the truth. If I’m misinformed, I want to know, and I will set the record straight.
You have my contact info.
BY, I would consider the letters sent by both Keith and by the financial team as possibly slanderous. Both letters misrepresented the “demands” of the 3 couples.
Billy- who is “they?” I run this site. You have not been censored.
Say what you have to say.
Here’s a request. Billy and BY are my guests, as is everyone who posts here. Thinking people understand the nature of blogs. One guy pays the bills, and is therefore the host. He creates the posts, therefore he is the voice of the blog. Everyone else is a guest. A good host will allow his guests to comment without correction, with few exceptions.
Should Billy or BY choose to interact with us, I would ask that they be treated as guests. If they challenge what is said here, it not fair to them to ask them to engage in a debate with 50 people.
I want Billy and BY here, and would ask that they are treated as guests, and that we would show restraint and respect. In other words, please don’t gang up on them.
I’ve seen it happen here too often, and I don’t think it’s fair or kind.
i have an idea. to clear up all these matters, let’s have the meetings taped and put out there on display. nothing to hide.
Billy and B Yawp.
I’ve done my best to set the table.
Let’s talk.
jim, i just saw your last post. if you think the idea of posting the meetings so there will be no confusion as to what was said or not was in any form ganging up, feel free to delete it.
Stunned
Stunned-
Virginia is a “one party” State. Is is perfectly legal under State and Federal law for anyone in attendance to record the meeting.
It is also perfectly legal for anyone to send me a copy of that recording, to be posted here.
Why Jim, that would be a perfectly good idea.
The meeting will be recorded, according to a pastor.
Thank you, Jim, for your welcome and civility. I’ve been hesitant for some time to participate in this discussion because it has seemed so one-sided. Wouldn’t want to feel like a liberal guest on Sean Hannity’s radio program. I will do my best to participate.
BY, my pleasure. I’m very glad you’re here, as I am only hearing one side of the story.
Were you at the December 20 meeting?
Hey BY. I’ve got a question: Do you know if the pastor/leadership will be making that recording available to the congregation – or will they keep the tape for their own, private records? Thanks.
BY said, “Wouldn’t want to feel like a liberal guest on Sean Hannity’s radio program.”
BY, I’ve never watched the show, but that’s a great line, nonetheless! Not only did it express your thoughts so well, but it gave me a great big smile. Thanks for sharing it, we could all use smiles.
Stunned
Jim,
Thanks for that. I appreciate it.
I’m serious guys. It’s unfair for 20 of us to throw questions at BY or Billy. I don’t want to start dumping posts into moderation, but I will.
(I’m not referring to your comment, stunned)
I’ve seen “one guy against a gang” far too many times here, and it’s not going to happen this time.
Please use restraint.
Billy-you have the floor-talk to me…
Have I misrepresented anything in regards to Chesapeake?
Barbaric, thanks for your willingness. We’re not perfect here, of course, and you do see tempers flare up, people get defensive, etc. etc..that’s because many of us have been so terribly hurt..we try to bear with one another as well. There is so much that has happened that it creates many raw areas in our lives. But you know what? I think it is not only possible, but does happen on this blog – that we see a glimpse of what the Body is truly to do – we see people agreeing to disagree, but not in a divisive or persally attacked way, we see hurting people receive hope, confused people receive wisdom..all of this on a silly ol’ blog!
It is a hard task to maintain a blog that is led and controlled by the Spirit of God, and not the experiences, opinions, and views of the people on it. Yet, those experiences and opinions and views will and should come out, and discussed, as we all exhort one another IN THE LORD, point each other to CHRIST, test all things, weight things against Scripture, etc.
I’d encourage you to stick around. Work through the temptations to just cut and run because things get difficult to hear – even I (and I left SGM) have had a hard time with people on the blogs “slamming” SGM all the time. So it goes both ways. We have our own struggles and we work through them by the grace of God, led by the Spirit, in an environment where love is seeking to be our guide.
welcome, and we are glad you are here!
Jim,
The “they” I mean are the numerous commenters that jump on any “pro” SGM post.
I just don’t have the time to stay on here and take everyone on point-by-point.
That’s why I put my email address up.
Thanks again.
I’m sorry, Jim. My question wasn’t meant to be disrespectful at all (to either of you). I appreciate your blog, Jim, and your attitude. Sorry.
Billy – no questions or comments from me, I just wanted to say “welcome” brother! Glad to have you here..
Remnant- no worries.
Whitman, eh?
Ozymandias,
“round the decay of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare, the lone and level sands stretch far away.”
Masterful, prophetic poem.
Yes, I was at the meeting. I’m confused about the wide range of perception about what happened that night.
I was given to understand that the meeting’s purpose was to prepare people for an anticipated broad distribution of the document presented to the pastors by the three couples. It was called last minute and those invited included CGLs and as many folks as they could think of who were familiar with Esther’s situation. Some were left out–don’t know why, but it’s fair to assume it was unintentional. I’m sure many of your guests will assume otherwise.
The only derogatory comment that I recall related to the couples was by Gene, to the effect that they had “unfortunately made themselves enemies of the church” by distributing the document while the pastors were in the process of addressing the accusations. In context, I do not believe the comment was slanderous, although I wish it had not been mentioned at all. If anything else was said of a negative nature, I honestly do not recall.
Keith began by acknowledging that the document contained legitimate issues and would be taken seriously by the pastoral team. He expressed his love for the three couples and acknowledged that all of us love them. He thanked them for having the courage to bring the issues to their attention.
Gene suggested that the couples had taken up another’s offense and warned all of us not to make the same mistake toward them. We were encouraged by Gene and Keith to reach out to them–the ultimate goal of reconciliation was stated more than once.
It’s not true that questions were refused. The pastors did not want to have an open mic–don’t blame them as that can get volatile. Instead, they offered to stay “all night if they have to” to address any questions people might have. Hardly anyone left after we were dismissed. People lingered for hours, forming groups around Gene and various pastors.
A long-standing church member interrupted at the end of the meeting. He was angry and accused the pastors of vilifying the three couples. He spoke at length in their defense and was not cut short. I still find his take on the evening confusing.
What many of us wish had happened that night is that the specific charges be addressed. I don’t know why the pastoral team chose not to do it that night. All that was stated was that some were accurate and would be addressed carefully and that others were based on innacuracies. I can only suppose that they wanted time to think and pray through them more carefully before speaking about them publicly. I understand they have since taken a several hour CGL meeting to go over each allegation, emphasizing areas of conviction. All questions were taken publicly, and CGLs were encouraged to address any questions with their groups. My understanding is that all allegations will again be addressed before the entire church body on the 25th.
I have personally asked lots of difficult questions and have seen no reluctance to come clean.
The three-day retreat last week was called so that the pastors could seek God for wisdom and humility on these issues. I don’t know details, but it seems that the time produced conviction and clarity for ways to address the issues in the future.
Jim, I for one will give charitable judgement and assume that the Lord has worked and moved, giving these leaders in Chesapeake the clarity they sought. We will find out on Sunday I suppose. But we remain prayerful. He wants unity, not division. I will strive to pray according to His will, despite reservations I struggle with. This is humbling for all of us, even as far away and “removed” as I am in Texas. When one part suffers, the whole suffers. How true I have seen that to be since being on this blog..but when one part rejoices, we all will also rejoice! May it be so..
I don’t know what the pastors are planning to do with the recording, but what I assumed from the conversation was that the recording was going to be made so that no one would later be misrepresented.
“Gene suggested that the couples had taken up another’s offense and warned all of us not to make the same mistake toward them.”
Wow. It brings sadness to think that Gene saw their actions as taking up an offence, and not as coming to Esther’s defense.
emmy, I agree with you and that he labeled them as the “enemy” of the church is horrid!
The Church are people who are baptized by the Holy Spirit into the Body of Christ by grace through faith.
The “enemy” is Satan and his demonic minions.
That Gene would label blood-washed, adopted children of the Holy God, who are joint-heirs with Jesus, indwelt with the Holy Spirit as the ENEMY is a very serious theological offense.
I am offended on behalf of these couples.
I have to say I’m excited about the possibility of reconciliation. I know it pleases God’s heart for us to walk together in unity and that it was important enough that Jesus prayed over his disciples about it before he was crucified. That means something to me. I picture us all having a gigantic hugfest (sorry for the estrogen effusion) after all this is over. We are one body with one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all.
I will continue to pray for you all for clarity and for the leaders of the entire SG movement to repent and turn from their previous error and really reach God’s heart!
(Thanks for the email, BY!)
So much for a pastor/overseer/former apostolic team member giving any REAL oversight to anything important and taking any REAL responsibility for things in his realm.
So much for REAL confession of sin and repentance, like he preaches the REST of us should do….
But hey, that’s standard fare for SGM, and standard fare for Steve and Janis Shank.
I experienced something very similar to Esther, which also included Steve and Janis Shank, only not to the degree as Esther. And I experienced almost TOTAL pastoral/Shank incompetence, being ignored, and being abused.
What we see here is what SGM is — a bunch of public PR hype but really full of dead men’s bones.
Remnant, Emmy, Beloved of God, these are signs of spiritual deception. Instead of being offended, I hope you’ll pray for Gene and Steve’s eyes to be opened and for them to be delivered. I know that’s what my friends are hoping for.
Yes, I have been praying for Shanks. But I also hurt really bad, and almost literally died from what happened to me in SGM — at the hands of teaching and dynamics from the top down, local pastors and care group leaders and their wives, and from the Shanks. Prayers for more grace to forgive more would be appreciated….
(A bit of comfort and compassion would have been nice to hear first off, Freedom Fighter. You have absolutely no idea what I went through and what I am going through. Um, it’s unbelievable.)
The higher I went in SGM trying to get things taken care of (ala Esther) and trying to find refuge in the leaders of the church, the worse I was treated. Consistently.
What does that say? We do we see?
What that says and what we see here is what SGM is — a bunch of public PR hype but really full of dead men’s bones. Literal Pharisees who care nothing for the sheep, especially the weak and downtrodden sheep.
We see literal Pharisees who love the public places of honor, who load down people with burdens they themselves don’t lift a finger to help with, who don’t act real, who don’t get real, and who don’t believe in real — “If we say his authority is from God, He will say,’Then why didn’t you believe me?’ But if we say his authority is from men, the people will stone us.”
And they should NOT say they sit in Moses’ seat if they want to represent the New Covenant, because saying they sit in Moses’ seat makes them teachers of the Law, and under the curse, and teaching and disseminating the death of the Old Covenant under the Law and under the curse.
Of course, maybe that’s why they do say they sit in Moses’ seat — because that is indeed who they are and what they do!
Ezekiel 34 –
http://biblestudy.crosswalk.co.....lation=niv
Oh, I guess my post makes a public “two or three witnesses” to have said the same things happened to them from Steve and Janis Shank.
I would like to know what the basis is for these leaders claiming to “not take up another’s offense.”
Aren’t we told to speak up for the defenseless and those who can’t protect themselves?
This sounds like another ploy (instead of the usual “gossip” or “slander” ploy) to keep people not know what’s going on.
Should these couples have just not gotten involved? Is that what these leaders were trying to say?
FF,
Thanks for your gracious response.
Guys,
Yes. Gene used a poor choice if words, but a verbal misstep is not the same thing as classifying them with Satan.
The problem is no one can ask him to clarify – “Gene, did you mean that they are literally anti-christs? Or, did you just mean they have chosen a position of opposition to the processes that our church follows?”
A compounding factor has been the extra issue of SGM Polity on top of everything else. Everyone knows these guys move super-slow.
The perception that hey have taken up someone’s offense is understandable (I am not saying correct, mind you, just understandable), if Gene believes that they are trying to circumvent the established church government that we’ve had since our inception.
I do not believe the issue was the fact that they brought “observations/correction,” but rather the means they chose to do so (i.e. it seemed like they meant to send out an accusational letter even after the pastors repented).
It really all turns on this:
What did the “You have three days to resign” part of the letter mean?
I am willing to believe the writer of the letter simply used a poor choice of words, and it came across other than what was intended.
(Now a poor choice of words when you are writing is much more serious than when you are speaking, but let’s go ahead and put Gene and the letter writer in the same category and give room for bad verbiage.)
Are you willing to believe that a reasonable person with no agenda, could read the letter and think it was a threat?
Here is the quote:
“It is our hope and desire to preserve as much unity as possible in the days ahead. That will largely depend on your response to our proposal… Your stepping down will allow us to spare the church exposure to many of the details surrounding the issues outlined above. We encourage you to consider carefully your failure to embrace this proposal.”
Now, doesn’t that come across as a threat?
All I am asking for is the honesty for everyone to say “I don’t read it that way, but I can see how it could be”
BY,
I would’ve loved to have had a 3 day retreat payed for by the congregation to get my bearings and seek God before our “meeting” with our former Sr. Pastor.
Did “Esther” ever get any such luxury???????
I am not hopeful….so therefore I think your offerings just gave them 3 uninterupted days to do damage control.
I am not angry with you……grieved and sickened by the mess.
On the 25th please listen to hear if they say anything about extended periods of prayer. The Holy Spirit speaking to them the from the Word. Any repentance that exhibits a true 180 degree turn. Not “let’s move forward from here and just start over”. NO what changes are they going to bring….
then maybe you don’t see the changes that need to be made.
Emmy and Remnant:
Out of that whole posting , that BY posted, you sift through it and find the one thing that you can use as ammunition, instead of taking it in as a whole and allowing your perspective to be shaped by an actual eyewitness account?
Esther, our hearts and prayers are with you.
And way to go, Esther, and catching them in the games of keep-away, logical fallacies, and hypocrisy, and for nailing them like you did.
Unfortunately, I think that stories like yours (and mine, to a lesser degree) are going to be made public in a number and magnitude that will sicken and horrify us all.
The cries of those hurt and oppressed by SGM have reached the heavens, and God is NOT pleased at all with these SGM leaders — who supposedly represent Him — who have messed around with His sheep.
Beloved:
You slammed FF for not opening her comments to you with compassion and sympathy. Did you read the comment you just posted?
here is what you said to her:
“(A bit of comfort and compassion would have been nice to hear first off, Freedom Fighter. You have absolutely no idea what I went through and what I am going through. Um, it’s unbelievable.)
this is your opening paragraph:
“So much for a pastor/overseer/former apostolic team member giving any REAL oversight to anything important and taking any REAL responsibility for things in his realm. ”
No compassion, no sympathy.
This is what I mean by playing by two sets of rules.
I am not picking on you.
You did pick on her unfairly, and I will not let you.
Hi Billy,
The issue about the 3 couples being singled out as evil troublemakers in the morass of Esther’s story has bothered me for several days. I held my tongue (so to speak) until I had BY’s first-hand report of what was said.
I hope my response wasn’t taken by BY as an attack on BY – that certainly isn’t where my heart is. BY has served the Body well by his truthful reporting, for which I am truly thankful.
I am appalled that the three couples, who also brought a truthful report, were singled out as being wicked.
Billy, do you find my claims of theological error in calling a fellow-believer to be “enemy” incorrect?
Thanks,
Remnant
Singing Cook:
Did you even read this thread?
The retreat was free. Will you retract what you said?
It is interesting that you connect the statements
“I am not hopeful…therefore I think your offerings just gave them 3 uninterupted days to do damage control”
You are basically saying that what you think, and how you are judging these guys is based on your emotions? on whether or not you feel “hopeful”?
If you meant to say that, I applaud your honesty.
If not…would you like the chance to choose different words?
Remnant:
Billy, do you find my claims of theological error in calling a fellow-believer to be “enemy” incorrect?
Did you read my comments?
also, you are now adding “evil troublemakers” and “wicked” to the list of charges piled on the “3″ ?
What I said was that the word “enemy” was not a good word choice.
Of course they are not on the same level as Satan. It is ludicrous to act like you honestly think that’s what Gene meant
Let’s give him the same room to make a mistake in word choices as the writers of the initial letter would ask for.
Billy and BY,
Well, at least you aren’t debating with 50 people
“unfortunately made themselves enemies of the church”.
I can’t think of a stronger charge that could have been made against the 3 couples. This is an outrageous statement. If this is a slip of Gene’s tongue, he should bag groceries.
“Gene suggested that the couples had taken up another’s offense and warned all of us not to make the same mistake toward them.”
This statement is meaningless. This is presented as a sin. Perhaps I’m completely ignorant of Scripture. Would someone please show me “taking up an offense” in Scripture?
Billy-“three days to resign” can only be found in Keith’s letter.
Jim,
I confess I am having a hard time…Billy and BY, I am the first to admit that there is MUCH left to be said between me and my old pastor (whom I love). But in my own personal story (which I have not posted because I am hopeful the A-Team will continue to show wisdom and compassion towards me and my story has the potential to give hope to people that are personally over SGM), there were many “assumptions” and “supposing” that went on in my life. I no longer desire to be in a position to ASSUME anything or SUPPOSE anything. I know I will trust in GOd, but beyond that, assuming and supposing are not the safest route when it comes to man. I seem to hear those words and those type words alot from my fellow members of SGM. It greatly concerns me how much I used to assume and suppose about my Pastors, and trusted too, and how much my friends do…just something to think about.
And I also have an account from that meeting and all I can say is, people hear what they want to hear, hope to hear or discern to hear…sometimes it is in mixtures. THat to say, both sides have something to “hold fast to” to “make their case”. I honestly believe that Keith did not go out to slander or anything else…and I honestly believe these members only desired to obey GOd and bring truth to light. All we can do is pray that “truth” comes forth, people are healed and restoration happens. No matter what side you are on, and lets be honest because truth divides: Luke 12:51Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division. 52From now on there will be five in one family divided against each other, three against two and two against three. 53They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law.”, everyone is on a side, dictated by their convictions and what they believe to be the truth. I join many others in desiring truth and look forward to praising God right along with my extended family in Chesapeake. Here is hoping in God and not in man, on either side
member from 89-98 until I left on a church plant! Feel free to email me and ask! 
PS-Billy and BY, if you have been there long then you probably know me
journeygirltruth@hotmail.com
Jim,
I agree that the enemies of the church thing was not a good thing to say. What I am saying is if we could ask him to clarify I would bet (speculation, I am admitting) that he would mitigate that.
My point on the “taking up offenses” thing is that Gene was at the very least calling for restraint in judgments and attitudes against the 3, but some don’t extend the same courtesy to him here. (not you, Jim)
That statement is only meaningless when the person saying it doesn’t mean it. It’s like opening with “Not to gossip, but…” You can pretty much count on the next thing being gossip.
If Gene didn’t mean it, then yes it is meaningless. But if he did, then it is the opposite: meaningful.
We have to see through to his “motives” (SGM word) to know which it is.
The three days issue is from another letter. The very first letter. I thought you had posted it already, but I stand corrected.
Note, new people coming to defend the pastors that ripped into the brave three couples after they dropped the ball for decades wrt Esther;
I am not saying anything because I can’t manage to say it nicely.
That doesn’t mean there is nothing to be said, mind you, because there is enough chutzpah to drown the east coast (and you know who’s going under water first.)
It means I have mustered enough self control not to say what I want to say but not enough self control to say what I should say.
Billy-”taking up an offense” in meaningless in light of Scripture. Please correct me with chapter and verse. This is a statement of sin in some circles which has no Biblical basis.
We’re going to have to agree to disagree on the enemies of the church statement. “Not a good thing to say” is a mile away from “he could not have said anything worse”.
I have the first letter. It does not contain the phrase “3 days to resign”. It asked for a definitive answer within 3 days.
Jim,
OK, we will let that one go.
But, what does the”definitive answer” refer to?
And, what do they say they will do if none is given?
All I am asking for is to be met halfway at “maybe it could be read like that”
Billy, you said:
Emmy and Remnant:
Out of that whole posting , that BY posted, you sift through it and find the one thing that you can use as ammunition, instead of taking it in as a whole and allowing your perspective to be shaped by an actual eyewitness account?
But don’t you see, that’s the whole issue? Theproblem the pastors have with the 3 couples seems to be, not the way in which they got involved, but that they got involved at all. If this statement is meaningful, it means that they should mind their own business and leave Esther and her issues to the pastors. I find it hard to take it any other way. Especially with the warning for others not to repeat their mistakes. What is your perception of the meaning of the phrase?
Well, thank you Billy and BY for sticking with us here. A couple of things. And pardon me for repeating myself, BY, because some of this I said in a private email to you already…
What you see here are wounded, grieving people. They are literally going through the stages of grief. We spoke of this somewhere else on the blog and someone posted a fantastic set of steps to go through in dealing with grief. The thing is, and I speak from experience having suffered from clinical depression, one level of grief is anger. And an often overlooked symptom of depression is hostility. I hope we can keep talking because I see fruit coming forth and I feel God’s heart beating for love and compassion to rule over all.
I want to apologize to Beloved of God. In an effort to promote peace and keep Billy and BY here and do what Jim asked, I didn’t preface my urging to pray for Steve with compassion for your situation. I’d love to talk to you further, privately, and to encourage you. I know Esther and I may also know you. Even if I don’t, I may have some insights I can share with you and I desperately want to. If anything I say here can help anyone, that is my goal. Please forgive me for causing you harm, Beloved. creativepowerhouse@gmail.com .
Freedom Fighter,
I sincerely apologize for not having been gracious and not having counted to 10 before I posted. I know how to make an “I feel” statement, and I didn’t do that. I don’t like it when people don’t do/do those things for/me in their attempt to communicate feelings, needs, and ideas.
You are right — compassion comes many steps after anger, but anger is a step in that direction…. I’m sorry I expressed it all over you, however.
Will you please forgive me?
Freedom Fighter, thanks, and yes, sure, I forgive you.
Here is one explanation on “taking up offense” from the Last Days Minstries website:
http://lastdaysministries.com/.....ossip.aspx
It is part of one their tracts they produce on gossip. I am not saying I agree with all of this or that is applies all the time but just thought I would share on definition of it that I found. I think this concept of taking another’s “offense” and it being wrng originates with Bill Gothard. As has been shared on other threads, both Gothard and his teachings have various issues.
“Taking Up An Offense”
“Sharing our hurts and bitterness, and listening to others share theirs, is another area where we need to be very careful. If someone is rude to your best friend, and your friend shares their hurt with you, then you’re probably going to “take up the offense.” This means you get hurt too, maybe even angry at the person who caused your friend pain. Later, they might make up and all may be forgiven and forgotten. But there’s only one problem … you’re still bitter! And the next time you see the person who hurt your friend, you realize that you haven’t forgiven him. Unless you go right away and clear things up, you may carry around a subtle bitterness that comes to remembrance every time you see him or hear his name. Why? Because God did not give you the same amount of grace to forgive as He gave your friend. You were not the one offended. God gives grace to the humble and the afflicted (James 4:6), and you were neither. You just “happened” to become involved in something you shouldn’t have been told about in the first place. The strife that one small incident can cause can be far-reaching and long-lasting, depending on how many people hear about it. So you see, it is totally irresponsible to involve others in your hurts and judgments. As far as I can see, we have no right to go to anyone except God and the offender, unless we are really at a loss as to what we should do. And then we need to go for counseling, not to our “most favorite person to talk to.”
At least you know the basis of someone claiming this shouldn’t be done.
Billy,
It could be read like that. We ask you to step down. If we don’t have a definitive answer within 3 days, we will begin the process of telling it to the church.
I think that Keith, having the letter in hand, should have been accurate in quoting the 3 couples.
I’m having a hard time with all of these pastoral slips of the tongue. Billy, I’m sorry, but this is what SGM does. If the pastor considers you dangerous to his position and confronts you, he destroys you. I’ve seen it over and over again.
I’d really like someone to enlighten me on the “taking up offenses” thing.
Of course, Beloved!
I keep hearing this old Vineyard song —
I am a wounded soldier
But I will not leave the fight
Because the Great Physician
Is healing me
So I’m standing in the battle
In the armour of His light
Because His mighty power
Is real in me
I am loved (I am loved)
I am accepted (I am accepted)
By the Saviour of my soul (Saviour of my soul)
I am loved (I am loved)
I am accepted (I am accepted)
And my wounds will be made whole
Jim-
My problem with this whole scenario is that these pastors preach Matt 18 and yet, it seems that they chose to broadcast a public defense before responding to the private communications of these couples. They then call a church meeting without the couples who brought these concerns.
How can they justify this? Where is the scripture that allows for a public defense before trying to work it out in private (as theses couples seemed to be doing)?
Jim, this seems to be a psychological term rather than a biblical one…
Taking up offenses: secondhand forgiveness and group identification.
Brown RP, Wohl MJ, Exline JJ.
Department of Psychology, University of Oklahoma, OK 73019, USA. rpbrown@ou.edu
When a person or group is mistreated, those not directly harmed by the transgression might still experience antipathy toward offenders, leading to secondhand forgiveness dynamics similar to those experienced by firsthand victims. Three studies examine the role of social identification in secondhand forgiveness.
guys,
I am done for the day, headed home.
Thanks for the civility.
I am sure we will pick it up tomorrow!
Steve-
I’m glad that Gothard included a Scripture reference, but that reference had nothing to do with his main point.
Thank you for your input, Billy.
Nevermind.
Jim said, “I’d really like someone to enlighten me on the “taking up offenses” thing.”
It’s another controlling mechanism to keep the sheep from rising up against the shepherds. It denies the Scriptures of bearing one another’s burdens and speaking up for those who can’t.
Super Apostles Series
http://www.cultwatch.com/saseries.html
*
I don’t necessarily endorse the articles below. They are included to hopefully try to answer Jim’s questions.
Doug Cotton Preaching on Offenses
http://www.doctrinetalk.com/?p=61
*
How to Avoid Hurts & Offenses in the Church
http://www.victorious.org/howhurt.htm
Freedom Fighter,
Thank you for you comment at 5:38. You compassionately understand the back and forth range of emotions of wounded, grieving people.
Calling this “taking up offenses” is an oft-used method of silencing people who have been wronged. I don’t believe these friends took up offenses. They walked in on a conversation inadvertently, so the situation fell into their laps. They did not purposefully listen to gossip at all. Esther was talking to pastors on the phone at their place of business.
The underlying issue here, Billy and BY, is that instead of compassionate service these men wronged Esther and instead of repenting when our friends confronted them on it the first time, they ignored them. Then instead of repenting the second time, they turned on their accusers.
I’ve done the same thing. If my husband nails me on something that I know I’ve done wrong, my first inclination is to turn it back on him and say, “Well, YOU did thus-and-so and I’ve seen YOU do such-and-such.”
The godly answer to a true accusation is an unequivocal apology followed by the best form of restitution you can think of. That’s what repentance is all about. That’s what we’re not seeing. And that, I think, is what everyone is so angry about here. Plus, these are not the only men who have done this. It’s rampant throughout the country. At some point, you have to go ahead and admit it, see it for what it is, and decide if you want to stay and try to reform the denomination or leave. I know you don’t want to see that this is all true, because you love your church. I’m really sorry. I’m disappointed along with you.
B of God-
I’ve seen 2 of those articles before.
I understand which men/movements teach this principle, I’m just looking for Scripture to back it up.
It’s my contention that a sin has been invented with no Biblical support.
Someone post a verse….
The only Scripture that could be interpreted this way (that I can find) would be:
Proverbs 17:9
“He who covers over an offense promotes love, but whoever repeats the matter separates close friends.”
The problem is that this (or similar biblical principles) has nothing to do with standing up for the falsely accused or boldly confronting a consistent pattern of abuse or hurtful behavior.
Paul “took up the offense of another” when he publicly rebuked Peter in Galatia for not eating with Gentiles.
Nathan “took up the offense of another” when he cleverly nailed David for his deep sin against Uriah.
Jesus “took up the offense of others” when He told the Pharisees:
“But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in. 14 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you devour widows’ houses, and for a pretense make long prayers. Therefore you will receive greater condemnation.”
If anything, there are many portions of Scripture that are so strongly directing us to caring for the afflicted or abused (the offended), that in Matthew 25:31-44 Jesus could be said to be defining true religion as “taking up the offenses of others.”
billy,
Regarding your post at January 21st, 2009 at 4:45 pm and other of your posts —
Thank you for pointing out my harshness towards Freedom Fighter when I posted at January 21st, 2009 at 4:21 pm. Yuck, I hate it when I do that.
I would like to ask you to please be careful how you approach people in your search for truth. There are a lot of people here who are hurting very badly, and I have felt quite hurt by your approach, your words, your harshness, and yes, the total lack of compassion you accused me of. (I don’t see I had a double standard about compassion there, but that doesn’t mean I didn’t. If I did, I am sorry.
I expect if I have felt so hurt by your comments, manner, and tone, then others here have, also.
I have expressed compassion about the leaders of SGM elsewhere, just not right then. I have prayed for them many, many nights to see, to have life, to know the grace of God, to know the forgiveness of God, to know His love.
When I first posted on this page at January 21st, 2009 at 4:03 pm, I was responding to Esther’s letter, not Freedom Fighter’s post, and so, no, I wasn’t feeling compassion for the SGM high leadership right them, but rather outrage at yet another person hurt and abused in a way so similar to how I was hurt and abused, but worse than I was.
Job’s friends went to comfort Job after all the things the Lord let happen to him. They were just “with” him with their silent presence for 7 days. Their mistake came when they opened their mouths.
But if God replied to Job’s 3 friends like He did, then what does He feel about how you’ve been approaching those of His who have been wounded in pain similar to Job’s?
I do not sense that you are here to comfort any of us walking wounded. You know something? — I love Jesus. What’s more important is that Jesus loves me. Jesus made sure someone picked me up and carried me back to the inn and cared for me when I was bleeding so much from SGM and other things that I couldn’t move.
Searching for truth is great. Wanting people to be fair to each other is great. (And I again thank you for pointing out about my harshness to Freedom Fighter.)
I want you to please quit pouncing on hurting people, clawing them for what you think are lapses of logic and character. You can point out things you disagree with, but it would be really nice if your claws were sheathed, like you like them to be for you.
I want you to also be a Good Samaritan, please, as well as being a disciple after truth and justice.
Thanks, billy.
Keep searching for truth!
Beloved of God
Beloved of God, can we talk offline or via email? 704-453-1408. creativepowerhouse@gmail.com .
Jim,
In reference to your post at 5:05:
I don’t wish to debate the accuracy of the “enemies of the church” comment. I wish it hadn’t been said. I disagree that it’s the worst thing that could be said, particularly in its context. My point, which no one seems to acknowledge, was that the point of the meeting was clearly not to vilify the three couples or to “discuss their sin.” That was the question you asked me. I remind you that the couples were thanked, their concerns acknowledged, love for them was reinforced, warnings against taking offense against them were given, and reaching out with the purpose of reconciliation was encouraged. It’s not fair or gracious to ignore the broad evidence and zero in on the one unfortunate phrase. It’s possible that Gene regrets it himself. I hope he does. And I reiterate that neither Keith nor any other pastor has made a single negative public comment directed toward the three couples.
The comment about “taking up another’s offense” was made by way of explanation. It was not even identified as sin of any kind. The point Gene made, as I recall, was that it is often more difficult to reconcile with people who have taken up the offense of another than with the one who was directly offended. It was not a dismissive nor was it an accusation. And it led to an exhortation to us to maintain a gracious attitude toward him.
Billy has addressed the “three days to resign” deal. There was no dissembling there. The threat seemed perfectly clear to me when I first read the letter. It was reiterated, btw, in a follow up letter two days later. I don’t believe that letter has been posted. I am willing to accept that the three couples didn’t intend such a threat, nevertheless, it is more than reasonable to infer it from their words.
Steven,
In reference to your post at 5:33:
“The problem the pastors have with the 3 couples seems to be, not the way in which they got involved, but that they got involved at all. If this statement is meaningful, it means that they should mind their own business and leave Esther and her issues to the pastors. I find it hard to take it any other way. Especially withe the warning for others not to repeat their mistakes.”
I’ve explained above what the intention seemed to be. Whether you like the phrase or not, it is a reasonable and essentially neutral way of stating what happened. A sister was offended. They took up her offense and brought it to the attention of the pastors. Why is it hard to take it that way (other than an insurmountable bias)? The warning to us was against taking up an offense against the three couples! He told us not to be mad at them. He told us to pursue them and pray for reconciliation.
I don’t know why I bother. I guess folks will believe what they want.
I was there. I heard what was said and how it was said.
FF,
Regarding your post 6:16. I’m sure “taking up an offense” is often used as a tool. It was not so used at the meeting.
There is much confusion about how the pastors were addressed prior to Esther’s letter to them. All I know is that when they received that letter, they were convicted of their sin and failure and made a thorough, sincere apology in which they asked Esther to invite as many witnesses as she wished.
I do not know about the first confrontation with the pastors, but I know that after the 9 concerns were brought to them as a group and the demand for resignations made they absolutely did not turn on their accusers. See all my previous posts for details.
They are embracing the correction. I know they are experiencing conviction of sin. I have every reason to believe the meeting on Sunday will include their expressions of remorse, plans for further evaluation, and some practical changes to be enacted. If I’m wrong, we can discuss it on Monday.
I can’t speak for what’s going on around the country. It’s tragic, I know. Certainly if it is anything like here. I don’t wish this on anyone–any of it. All I know is, I know and love everyone involved–the pastors, the three couples, and Esther. As I wrote to you, I am striving for both concrete change on the part of the pastors and peace and unity in the congregation. Too many posters here seem interested in only the former.
Music Man at 6:04.
The pastors did try to address these issues in private. They called the meeting because the three couples had assured them they would make the issues public. You’ve got it backwards.
DB (5:23),
Thanks, I think, for (sort of) not saying anything unkind.
For the record, I am only “defending the pastors” because they are being slandered here. I understand that the invective springs from hurting people. I am trying to be gracious and understanding, but feel it necessary to correct false allegations.
They are not, however, all false. Our pastors in Chesapeake (I can’t and won’t speak for other churches) have blown it in many ways and for many years. Their misguided counseling and mishandling of the sheep in their flock, particularly women in desperate situations, is inexcusable. I know and love Esther and the three couples. I am deeply sorry for Esther’s experience here and am heartbroken that the three couples are considering leaving the church (that’s an assumption, I don’t know if they have or are planning to).
But I also know and love my pastors. They are flawed and fallen men, but despite what you read here, they are well-intentioned, godly men. All of them were once regular-Joes in the church. I’m open to the idea that they may not be qualified for their jobs (that’s happened before), but that’s not my call to make, and it doesn’t matter anyway. Maybe it took longer than it should have, but I believe their eyes have been opened and their sinful failings revealed. I believe they have been cut to the quick and will repent and change.
They are not monsters. They are not callous and uncaring. They are not power or money-hungry. They do not intentionally manipulate or dissemble. They screw up, like all of us. Unfortunately, when a pastor screws up, the consequences are a lot higher.
I am not seeking to defend all of SGM. I don’t know enough. I only know these people and this church. I know lots of “victims.” I’d consider myself one of them. Billy too, in fact, if he’s who I think he is.
I’ve got my own explanation for how things got to this place. It’s in a letter I sent to the pastors. Maybe Jim would be willing to post it.
I have to speak here: Words like “THREAT” and “DEMAND” are used very carelessly and bandied around as if these men were present when the 3 couples brought the concerns to the pastoral staff, as well as Gene Emerson. Unless you were there when the couples met with the pastors and Gene, you should have little to say about it. In the legal world, we call it “HERESAY”, and in court, that would be inadmissible as evidence. I appreciate the zeal of BY (and Billy) to support their pastors. I too supported them for many years, and indeed, forgive them, as well as Gene Emerson. I will not, however, interpret what these 3 couples intended as anything less than courageous and righteous, but not in their own eyes; I know these couples; but in the eyes of their Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ! Are they flawed? Absolutely! Did they do their best to expose sin in the church? Absolutely. If it took a three day “Proposal.” then so be it. It is what sparked the fire, which will not be quenched until all is exposed. I believe that is exactly what is happening. So, I’m sure many have their own explanation for how things got to this place, and I’m sure they bear some merit…but unless you know the absolute truth, and the only ones that know this are the 3 couples and Esther, please refrain from publishing heresay and you “don’t know enough”. If you were a “victim” I encourage you to be courageous, like Esther, and share your situation only! Blessings!
BY: For your info., the 3 couples did not assure the pastors that they would “make the issues public.” As I understand (from one of the couples directly, as well as my reading of their letter), they would “take it to the church,” which was the biblical mandate in Matthew 18. This is very different from “taking it public,” as well as “undefined.” as I have been told.
I don’t believe the pastors are being slandared.
In fact, this has been festering under the surface so long it has grown and festered like a metaphoric zit.
Noel’s story is the thumb and Esther’s the forefinger that has squeezed the puss to the surface.
The subsequent mess is here for all to see and discuss.
Hopefully, balance and health can be restored to the body to avoid future outbreaks, so to speak.
BY: Another correction. I understand that all three couples experienced similar issues as Esther, and were not “taking up her offense.” I do not know what they were precisely, but know there was similar counseling issues with them. That being said, I understand that Gene was corrected about this statement after the meeting by one of the care group leaders (or leaders). In addition, it appears that through the issues with Esther, the couples saw many issues within the church that were “corrupt.” This is not another’s offense, but as members, offenses to the whole flock.
We are one of the three couples who brought charges against
the three pastors of the Chesapeake church. We are not responsible for
putting this on this blog. We are saddened by some of the comments
that may not be coming from godly motives and attitudes. The Lord
is working in a redeeming way in our church and we’re very
glad for the progress that we see happening.
AK,
Thank you for posting. None of the three couples are responsible for posting the letter. I have approached none of you. You don’t need my baggage.
The letter was sent to me by a friend of one of the couples, who is not a member of Chesapeake. I told this person that I would post the letter if I don’t hear from one of you, or if I don’t hear from this person saying, “I’ve talked to them-they don’t want it posted”
I sincerely hope that I haven’t added to your grief. I want you to know that the support you are seeing here is minuscule compared to the emails of support I have received. You and your friends are loved and respected.
Some of the comments have saddened me as well. There’s obviously a high level of frustration.
A blog is a blog-people need to take it for what it’s worth. I do hope that I haven’t muddied the soup there is Chesapeake. It was my intention to bring these things to light.
Long Sufferer,
I am not on a side. I love my church. That includes my pastors, people hurt by their actions, and the three couples who have brought the issues to light. Those are not just words.
I believe the three couples did a courageous thing. I think they went too far in their zealousness, but have no desire to be diverted by that. Whatever excesses they maybe guilty of are easily overlooked. I agree that their boldness to bring rebuke has begun a needed and ultimately healing process. But the could also lead to division, bitterness, and prolonged suffering if we do not all walk this out in love and grace.
I did not use the terms demand or threat carelessly. As I believe I have already said, I am willing to accept that they did not intend to make a demand, but the wording of their letter (and an ensuing letter that has not been published) can, and was, reasonably be interpreted as a threat: “Your stepping down will allow us to spare the church exposure to many of the details surrounding the issues outlined above.” I was not in the room, but these were there written words. I assume carefully crafted words. If “stepping down” (not communicating with them) is what will “allow (them) the spare the church exposure to many of the details” it is reasonable to conclude that not stepping down will require them to expose the details to the church. It is not bandying to consider these words as a threat.
That said, and giving the couples (whom I love), the benefit of the doubt, I will qualify my terms henceforth to “perceived threat” or “perceived demand.” Will that do?
I want you to know that I entered this fray in the first place because of the way terms get bandied about here-the term “corrupt” for example.
Jim,
Neither Billy nor I ever used the term “slip of the tongue.” We both commented that Gene’s comment would have been better left unsaid. Neither of us sought to excuse it.
DB,
My pastors are frequently slandered by posters on this blog. By slander, I mean the communication of false information injurious to another’s character. I suppose in a legal sense, it would be libel, since the words are written, not spoken. Whatever.
I could find you dozens of examples, but a recent and obvious one would be by Stunned at 10:05 AM on the 21st above:
“they have discovered that they are a bunch of overfed shepherds, feeding off their flocks. That they are a bunch of overgrown babies with serious mother/father issues. That they have tiny…er… large inadequacies in their lives which cause them to lord over the weak and the trusting. That they are sorry and so moved to despair when they saw the wickedness of their ways that they considered hari-cari, but the Lord brought them back and now they are not only going to change their behaviour and their foolish way of looking at things, but that they are going now take on the financial support of all those in the church who are in need, will give up their mcmansions (if they got ‘em), move into humble houses and teach their children what life is like as a normal person so their poor kids don’t end up big ole wankers like they are”
Perhaps these words were written out of a wounded spirit, but they were written of men I consider friends.
My goal is also balance and health to the Body. Every word I’ve typed (probably too many) has been with those goals.
DB – LS – great posts!!! I do not see the pastors as being “slandered”, the truth of their actions are being shared. What they have done in Esther’s case (and many, many others) was damaging, hurtful and just plain wrong. They told Esther (and other women) to stay in a situation where THEIR LIVES WHERE IN DANGER. These men are in a position of power. The standard for their actions NEEDS to be higher than for the members. Their actions SHOULD BE QUESTIONED by the members. Their oversight leads to the very top of a pyramid type corporate structure (with no REAL oversight or accountability beyond CJ). I do not agree with SGM’s structure of church government. It is not sin to question one’s leaders. Their lives should be an open book. If you are in that position of power, you need to be transparent. I remember years ago, when shank was pastor, he, from the stage, attacked the “question authority” bumper sticker – talked about how awful and “sinful” it was. That’s pretty easy to say when you are the one in authority – “it is sinful for you to question me” is what he basically said. My take? Question authority – bad things happen when no one is watching. SGM’s leaders need to be questioned.
BY and Billy – thank you for your posts. You and your brethren at SGMCVA are in my prayers. We do have a disagreement about how things are run at SGM. For things to change at SGM, it simply put, would not be SGM anymore. There are SO MANY issues apart from Esther’s tragedy (and Noel’s). My question is what exactly did the pastor’s repent of? Did they repent for the extra-biblical sgm doctrine? Did they repent for the controling, cultish aspects of the church? Did they repent for trashing and tarnishing the reputation of the 3 couples? Did they repent for their facists and authoritian ways? Did they repent for the damage they have done to all members? Or did they simply say “we repent that our actions may have caused damage to Esther”.
BY and Billy and SM and all other SGM defenders, what does REAL CHANGE at SGM Chesapeake mean to you?
On the subject of “taking up the offense of others” – that is just another method to control. When a pastor stands up on that stage at the SGM church, what is said from the stage is taken as biblical truth, even if it is not. This one has been discussed and I commend the 3 couples for taking up Esther’s offense and I commend everyone who stands with Esther to support her anaginst the tyranny that she has been subjected to – she DESERVES the support.
Jim,
Where in the Bible does it give you the right to bring things to light in a church you don’t even attend?
Barbaric Yawp
Your Pastors are the subject of personal opinion, experience, and free speech. They would be the first to say that when one is in a public arena, one will face public scrutiny. This is a quote from CJ after accidentally misrepresenting a celebrities actions from the pulpit.
False information would be say, Pastor X teaches out of the King James Bible when he does not.
Opinion would be that, Pastor X teaches like Ben Stein after 30 hours of sleep depravation.
See the difference?
They would also be the first to say that effective teaching is measured by its fruit. Seems to me that there is a lot of scorched earth in Gods Kingdom, with the trails leading back to SGM.
AK – I just want to say thank you for you and T standing with Esther and bringing these charges to light. This is a tough, tough thing you have done, but is was the RIGHT thing to do. Thanks to you, Esther and others who have been damaged can begin to heal. I know of how much time, effort, blood, sweat and tears you have put into SGM Chesapeake. At the risk of becoming a spiritual martyr, you and Tim did the right thing. Thank you for doing the right thing.
Barbaric and Billy,
Welcome to the refuge (a little late). I appreciate your willingness to present the other side of the story.
Two things. I agree with Musicman. The three couples were expressly following Matthew 18. Their only Scriptural recourse after weeks of being put off was to proceed to the next step. I guess my question would be, if the pastors and Gene were concerned about the couples wrongly “going public,” why did they not just contact the couples again and reason together? Instead of sounding the alarm? If the leaders believe that it is the three couples who need church discipline for “taking up an offense” and “usurping authority”, why did they not follow Matthew 18 by first taking the couples aside and specifically (and privately) confronting their sin? What is their Scriptural basis for conducting themselves the way they have? Clearly, Matthew 18 cannot be used, for according the accounts given here, they did not follow it.
Secondly, you must understand the pain that is represented on this blog. Many of us have gone to our former SGM pastors with humble hearts, trying to follow the steps of correction as outlined by THEM. Many of us have been brutalized. This has occurred over many years and in many different locations. So, for us, the problem is far deeper than whether or not Gene should have said “enemies” or whether or not the three couples should have rephrased their “demands”. For us, the problems, logically, MUST originate from the top down. Otherwise all of our scenarios could not have been so strikingly similar.
I greatly appreciate AK’s comment and hope for redemption in Chesapeake. We are delighted and eager to stand with her and the rest of the church for just such an outcome. I am amazed, in light of all that has happened, at the attitude of these couples.
But honestly, because of our past experiences, our past hope for redemption that did not come to pass, we are scared for these couples. Maybe scared isn’t the right word. But I can’t think of another. I know for myself, I went into our “meeting” with Scripture in my heart and high hopes, because these were, after all, men of great integrity. Yet, it took me years to recover from the results of that meeting. My story is not unique.
So here’s the bottom line for me. I hope for more than just correction of semantics or verbal misunderstandings. I hope for REAL CHANGE within SGM, from the top down. I hope that SGM polity will be looked at hard and long. I hope that SGM’s position on authority and submission will be brought to a more balanced and, ironically, “biblical” place. I could go on, but Esther and the three couples state the case clearly. The only thing I would add is that the problem is not exclusive to Chesapeake; it is organization-wide.
Dear Arlynn,
We will gladly join you in prayer for the redemption to take place just as you hope. Our prayers may come at it from a different angle and our hope may be for a broader outcome, but we are with you in your desire to see progress, restoration and unity in your church. Blessings!
Jim,
In light of Arlynn’s post, if you find my post inappropriate, delete it. Or if you believe my post is ”piling on” Barbaric and Billy, delete it. No worries.
What is forgiveness and what does it look like? If someone comes to me and asks for forgiveness do I forgive them, and continue to harp on the sin they have committed against me? Wouldn’t we call that ‘bitterness.’
Stein,
Who are you addressing?
Mommy,
Your question seems to come from a perspective that believes that what we do on Sunday morning in America bares some resemblance to the first century church.
Newsflash-we ALL belong to the same church.
When one part of the Body suffers, we all suffer.
Jim,
Just trying to make a point. Even after these pastor have gone to many individuals and already asked forgiveness, including myself, that there is still a sense of ‘they must pay for what they did’ or ‘they’re not getting off that easy.’ Just an observation.
I said I was done posting but after reading these latest postings, I do have a question. I do not believe that this is just a SG Chesapeake problem. I do believe that this is systemic. Why would you have problems movement wide with these same issues if it wasn’t?? I think just focusing on what the pastors in Chesapeake have done and how they are repenting misses the big picture. Could it be possible that the teachings and “doctrines” that are coming down from the top lead to these issues throughout SGM? I do not believe that any of the men who have counseled these women in Chesapeake set out to deliberately harm them! I do not believe the pastor in Cleveland who abused his spiritual authority with us intended on harming us but that fact is that he did!! The fact is that there are families all over the US who are left bleeding and dying is a huge problem that needs to be dealt with starting with the big dogs who run the show. I honestly do not know what the answer is. I do believe repentance needs to be movement wise not just in Chesapeake.
Monica
Stein,
I believe that CJ would be the first to commend a leader for having the humility to step down when necessary. There is no shortage of SGM pastors that have been asked to do so. Unfortunately, it appears that they are asked only when the offence harms SGM. Seldom, if ever, if the injured party is a member. If you only knew how many times an SGM Pastor has run with bad, or misinformation, only to cause much unnecessary pain and suffering.
How many times has CJ preached about actions speaking louder than words?
One of his more popular quotes is, “If you want to know a mans heart, look at his checkbook”.
I would say their actions should disqualify them from leadership.
What if the injured party coming from Chesapeake was Josh Harris’s Family?
Regarding Gene’s use of words during the meeting: anyone who has been in SGM for even 6 months would be aware of how carefully the pastors choose their words, especially in a public setting or in written communication. They take time to consider what they want to say; they have prepared notes; they are always especially careful to qualify statements so that there can be no misunderstanding as to what they are or are not saying.
This is not a bad thing. It’s always good to be thoughtful about what you want to say and clear in how you say it. So I find it difficult to believe that Gene didn’t mean exactly what he said or that he didn’t really mean to say it as he did in the meeting. SGM pastors/overseers are very intentional in how they communicate to their churches. I think you can take Gene’s words at face value and assume that he meant exactly what he said.
Stein,
Another point is the SGM definition of true biblical repentance, which is, “to turn from, or to cease”.
This from Jeff Purswell’s study of the Greek no less.
If they are truly repentant, why does it keep happening over and over, day after day, and year after year?
Excellent comments…
Hello all.
AK, thank you for jumping in. Thank you for your encouragement and faith for the change that the Lord is bringing to SGC. We are praying for you and your family, and all the families, that God will minister to everyone and bring the Holy Spirit more and more.
God bless you, and us all.
Well, thanks for the ride, everyone. As I suspected, I’ve mostly wasted my time here. You are all apparently fixed in your assessment of our situation, even those who have no dog in the hunt.
You don’t read to learn, but to acquire fodder for argument.
You are pretty much without exception determined to ignore any point made in favor of our pastors.
You are determined to judge SGCC in light of your experiences and your settled judgment of SGM.
You make no room for God to grant genuine repentence to the men over our church.
You will not acknowledge that there is a middle ground between “blind defense of SGM and its leadership” and “support for the victims of abuse.”
You mischaracterize, assign evil motives, draw uncharitable conclusions, pronounce judgment, and rely on the very tactics you accuse SGM of employing (manipulation of Scripture, loaded terminology, tu quoque attacks, ad hominem attacks, straw man arguments and various red herrings). Then you excuse them all because you speak from a place of hurt.
You place yourselves above reproach by dismissing biblical correction as “a method of control and manipulation.”
You dismiss the existence of faithful, godly men in leadership positions as “pawns” and “kool-aid drinking robots.”
You resort to petty and offensive mudslinging (“wankers?”) with impunity, but pounce on statements you can interpret as derogatory toward those who share your view.
You label uncharitable interpretations of events and blanket accusations as “truth” in order to justify spreading them.
You give lip service to a desire for peace and reconciliation, then continue venting your rage and tearing down members of the body.
I don’t deny your right to free speech, but that cuts both ways. If you are free to speak, I am equally free to disagree.
AK, a dear friend representing one of the three couples, confirmed what I have been saying and it is barely acknowledged.
Jim, I believe you have good intentions, but this blog is a stew pot for bitterness and divisiveness. Whatever good it may be doing is dwarfed by the evil it is breeding. You were kind enough to welcome me to the discussion, but then joined the bulk of your guests in picking at straws while ignoring my larger purposes. It is also unconscionable to post letters addressed to 3rd parties without the express consent of the authors. Dismissing that concern with arguments like “a blog is a blog” isn’t much of a defense.
This blog does a lot of calling for repentence. I agree that that is warranted by the pastors in my church. I equally believe it is warranted by many who post here. If you do not fit any of the categories above, I apologize and excuse you from this rebuke. For the rest of you, “to him who has ears to hear…”
Now back to my day job.
Mt. 7:6; Pr. 23:9; Pr. 18:13; Pr. 10:18
Beloved of god, I am sorry and sad to hear that you have suffered so greatly at these people’s hands. I don’t know when others will wake up and see… I mean SEE what it is others have done to you. And to many others. It’s one thing for someone to say, “Yes, you are hurting.” It’s another thing for them to ACT as if they know you are hurting. They are two different things. I hope I don’t cause you any more wounds than you already have. And ps, you have nothing to apologize for. You were expressing your pain to someone who caused you even more. That is APPROPRIATE to tell someone that they hurt you. I know as a former SGMer, it’s a hard lesson we must all learn. (At least most of us.) Your pain matters and, I think, it was OK for you to say, that hurts. If someone steps on your toes, inadvertently or not, there are going to be times when you don’t say softly, “Excuse me, kind Sir/Madam, would you please be ever so kind as to remove your heel from my second toe. It is causing me, ever so much, agony.” Instead, you’ll push the person and shout, “Get off!”, 80%+ of the time. That is understandable. That is expected. If I step on someone’s toe by mistake, I would expect that. Sure, I’d be embarrassed, but when I hurt someone who is already hurting, what do I expect? That is why we need to be gentle around the those who are already laying on the ground bleeding and pay more attention to them than the giants in the land.
God bless,
Stunned
and grieving for the whole body
Steve240 said, “Aren’t we told to speak up for the defenseless and those who can’t protect themselves? “
AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You want to accuse me of taking up another’s offense? Thank you. I consider this a high honor and a compliment. I’ll just line up beside my big brothers and sisters in the faith.
Hi billy, don’t know if I have greeted you yet or not. In your 4:31 letter of yesterday you said, “the established church government that we’ve had since our inception.”
I wasn’t really clear by what you mean by “we’ve had”. I am guessing you either mean your specific church or SGM in general. I think it’s interesting to note (if you meant SGM in general) that when I joined my SGM church there WERE elders who were not on staff and not homegroup leaders. I don’t know if I would have joined had there not been this very wise security net in place. Though, that said, even elders can be manipulated given the “right” circumstances.
BY, I know Jim asked us not to jump in here as I think he wanted to not distract you from having to respond to so many posters. So please know I don’t expect a response. I just wanted to encourage you in something. In your 11:41 post last night you said, “I don’t know why I bother.”
I just want to encourage you that you bother, I believe, because you CARE. It’s a beautiful thing. We may not see eye to eye, but I like that you care and are passionate. God says he’d prefer we be hot or cold and not lukewarm. YOu coming on here is showing that you are not lukewarm. That is a good thing. Take care, S
Okay, three things.
One — Hi AK! We love and miss you and your family. It’s hard to believe we’ve been gone so long that now our girls are the age your girls were when they babysat for us.
Two — In Chesapeake, the couples’ private pleas with pastors were ignored. Someone said — I think it was BY — that the pastors tried to resolve things privately and the three couples brought things public. That is not my understanding of what happened.
Three — I have ironically enough been doing a study on forgiveness and reconciliation. We are called to forgive, even when the person who has wronged us has not asked our forgiveness. Case in point — Corrie ten Boom forgives her oppressors who caused the death of her sister in the concentration camp. This type of forgiveness often flows from the heart of God through us to the person we forgive because it’s just too darned hard for us to do ourselves. And also, this can take time. Forgiveness is a process and doesn’t happen automatically.
Reconciliation is different. In order to be reconciled, you have to agree to again live in relationship with the person who wronged you. There are people in my life who I have forgiven but we have not been reconciled. They are not trustworthy and would cause me further harm. Esther’s husband, for example, might not be a good person for her to reconcile with at the moment — he isn’t showing signs of true repentance and could cause her further harm. Does she forgive him? Yes! Can they be reconciled? Only if God moves miraculously on his heart. There’s a difference.
What you see happening here at Refuge is people crying out in pain for someone high up within SGM to repent so that others don’t end up suffering even more. The perpetrator in Noel’s case — allowing him to serve in the two-year-old classroom? Not a sign that Noel’s family will ever be able to reconcile with his. The fruit of repentance is not present. Where are the fruits of repentance in the hearts of CJ and Steve and Gene? We want to know. We want to see them changed — because we want God’s best for them and those they’ve caused harm and also because we don’t want them to do this to others in the future. And I think the final frustration is that we are on the outside. We don’t know what is being or has been said about us, about our walk with God, about our families. To a certain extent, and this is true in many churches, the hand of fellowship was retracted when we left. Even from those we believed would be our friends forever. Being on the outside, we’re crying out for people to hear us — people who can speak at that meeting like BY and Billy. I’m praying for clarity and focus and for true repentance. I’ve felt the Lord wants to use Chesapeake like a lighthouse to shine on nationwide abuses and bring about change. Knowing these friends as I do, I believe that’s possible and am excited about God getting all the glory.
Okay, I have a fourth thing. Someone said the three couples have also experienced things like what Esther went through. I only know two of them and neither of them has experienced anything similar at all.
I am thankful for Billy and BY and Arlynn and Esther and Monica coming on here. I wasn’t sure I should be involved with these blogs because I have nothing to do with these people anymore, but now I can see the hand of God moving in our midst. He is aligning me with certain people and reconciling me with others. I am so grateful. For your support, Jim, and for offering us a place to mourn together.
We will continue to pray that God’s perfect will is done!
Sidenote: I’ll be in Virginia the next weekend and would love to see you all!
Everyone,
I am very troubled that no one is picking up on what AK said.
“God is working in a redeeming way”
and she is “encouraged”
Has she too partaken of the oh-so-popular SGM kool-aid?
Or is something good happening in Chesapeake?
Your silence is overwhelming, and I am now convinced that you really are determined to believe what you wish to believe in the face of any testimony or evidence to the contrary.
“There’s a difference. So what you see happening here at Refuge is people crying out in pain for someone to repent so that others don’t end up suffering even more.”
Thank you for understanding, FF. It is most appreciated to be understood when time and time agin, it feels as if you are oh so alone. Or that few have the eyes to see or the ears to hear. Sometimes all you can do is say what you need to say and leave the results in God’s hands, hoping someone will come along that can hear. Thank you.
Jim, thanks for meeting me halfway on the letter. Here are the two quotes:
(right after the numbered list)
“It is our hope and desire to preserve as much unity as possible in the days ahead. That will largely depend on your response to our proposal, and that is that the three of you – Keith, Brett, and Trevor – immediately resign your positions.”
then the close:
“We ask you to not delay your resignations. Should you refuse, we will take that as your signal for us to honor our scriptural responsibility to “take it to the church”. Should we hear nothing definitive from you within three days, we will begin that process”
By aligning, I didn’t mean taking sides. I didn’t mean anything about the Chesapeake church at all, in fact. God has been sending me bruised people that he wants to comfort and heal. I’m honored to be a vessel used to His glory this way. There’s something about being able to comfort others with the comfort you were comforted with (Corinthians). I see a lot of that happening here and I believe it blesses God.
Billy, it seems strange to talk about the letter on here when you could just call up AK and ask what they intended. Or rather than talk about these things with Jim, just ask AK directly. Er, well, I guess, AK, I’m asking you to tell us why the resignation was called for. What triggered that? Even as I say that, I feel it’s a bit voyeuristic of me. Do I really need to know? Do we all need to know? Maybe it’s a private matter that resulted from their private meeting.
People on here have been wondering about it, though.
And Billy, my heart leaped when I read what Arlynn said. It’s exciting!! I’m VERY encouraged!
Ok I have sat back and not posted for a while. In reference to AK: Yes God is working in a redeeming way. He is redeeming and regenerating my soul. My soul which has been battered and bruised and down right wounded. A soul that has been manipulated and controlled. I am NOT bitter at all. People have even said that about me. I am encouraged in where God is leading and directing me. For there is a time and a season for all things. It is my season to move on. To make new friends. Friends that I hope I would have regardless of where I worship. Detoxing from the kool-aid may take a while………….
FF:
I do not take issue with you, you have been very gracious and willing to listen, thank you.
How is it strange to talk about the letters, though? when the letters are the basis of everything that has happened, and many of them are posted here?
My point in posting it is to show that a reasonable reading could lead the reader to have a very clear understanding of what they meant:
“If you do not tell us you will resign within 3 days, we will take it to the church”
My whole objection was to various commenters saying that keith and the financial team “misrepresented” the letter.
Billy,
I stand corrected about the cost of the retreat. I read 2 posts that just mentioned the retreat and then read BY’s much earlier post about it being at someone’s house. I am very sorry for accusing them of using parishner’s $ to fund their retreat.
I am not hopeful and your berating me for not being so and being emotional only furthered my hopelessness. I am from an area out west that have seen MUCH damage control in the past year. Therefore, my hopelessness is not based on my emotions alone but on personal witness. I know that these pastors sincerely believe what they are doing is right and just. But there are SO MANY people left in the wake of their counsel and or discipline that are hurting and confused and broken. Yes, and maybe see things a bit emotionally.
All of the above does not excuse my $ accusations. I officially retract it.
I do not refract that they got to take 3 days off to gather their thoughts. As “unfair” as I think this is I REALLY do hope God met them and gave them illumination.
Maybe next time you want to make a correction of someone’s assessment you can refer back to the post that refutes it. Rather than throwing out accusations and sarcasm.
SC:
Thank you for your retraction.
I just thought that it was telling that you connected “I am not hopeful…therefore”
Where is our hope?
Who is our hope?
From where does our help come?
Let’s not limit God or our faith in Him to do what we perceive as impossible.
I am sure we can all bear witness that we need to look no farther than our own salvation to see what God can do in a “hopeless” situation.
Freedom Fighter,
Great post on the difference between forgiveness and reconciliation.
Hi Happymom-
I’ve been thinking about you guys and hoping you are all right….no need to fill us in until you’re up for it, or not at all-just wanted to let you know you’re in my thoughts and prayers.
peace-mm
Stein-
If someone murders your child and then says please forgive me-does that mean that you can’t go to the police to report the incident?
You can forgive the murderer and even empathize, but would it be harping on their sin to go and testify in court that the murderer of your child actually did murder?
Forgiveness is not a get out of jail free card for consequences. I can commit sexual sin and get AIDS, God will forgive me and I can know I’m forgiven-it doesn’t mean that I don’t have AIDS-I still live with the consequences (though-not eternally, Thank God).. do you see my point?
Happymom, I think I got that information on reconciliation from someone else on here. Those thoughts weren’t originally mine. If I could, I’d credit the person who first posted it, but I don’t know who that was…
Billy, I just think there’s no sense wondering what they MEANT in the letter when we can now just ask Arlynn to tell us since we know she’s posted here… But again, as I say that, I do feel like it’s not my business. I’m not in an SGM church and haven’t been for ten years.
I do feel hopeful about all this. I think it’s possible for reconciliation to occur if God sweeps in and releases people from these various areas of bondage. I always leap in and offer opinions when I should maybe let those involved work things out. But ten years is a long time. I can see things that perhaps others close to the situation can’t. So if you want some perspective after the fact, I’m here. The main thing to remember is that each one of us is answerable to God and Him alone. Whatever He leads you to do — go or stay — is your choice. But I want it to be an informed choice.
After reading all of this, I have one question and one point to make. I’m just a whittle tweety bird, so no one jump down my throat, okay?
First, my question: If men like Keith Jacobs and Chris Lutyk (from the Fairfax Church) were loving, kind pastors, yet asked to step down for their lack of “gifting” (I happened to know the Lutyks – I don’t believe the reason – impossible!), yet their churches had no such problems as are being discussed here, then why are pastors allowed to remain who have made such serious mistakes and shown their own lack of “gifting”? I am very troubled by this. Can anyone answer this question? Any still-SGMer’s out there? I’d like to understand. I mean, if a big guy like Larry T. is asked to step down because of various character deficiencies (which, to this day, are still purely a matter of opinion), shouldn’t these men join him? Even offer, out of their own humility, to step down and return to the PC for further training, as Benny Phillips did (whose situation was NOTHING like this)?
A point I would like to make: my husband and I left PDI in 1997 after having brought up questions about how some things were being run. We were shocked to be shown the door. Believe me, we had only respect for our “leaders”, and could not believe the anger they were showing us. Not just anger, but a little disdain and alot of condescension. Anyone who knew us (my husband led children’s ministry) would have been shocked as well if we had returned and told them our reasons for leaving. Instead, we left quietly, telling only one couple of our reasons. We respected the group.
In the end, three couples, all in our home group, left. The Pastor went to the HG and, we heard later, apoligized to the group for not handling our situation better. We received no such apology. The group was then disbanded.
My point: from our own experience, and from reading others’ here, SGM does not like messes, nor do they like them to spread. I believe there is a lack of integrity in how questions and such are handled because the leaders fear the messes, like division, lack of control, etc. Now, it is my meager opinion that Chesapeake has become a huge mess, because it has been made so public. The Pastors will show repentance to the group as a whole to avoid a church division. But will they show a true turn-about to those who have been labeled “enemies of the church”? Those words were not spoken lightly. These men do measure their words. I believe this to be an ominous foreshadowing of what is to come on the 25th. This will most likely be a church discipline meeting for the couples involved. I hope I’m wrong but, if not, Esther and the three couples, we are here for you.
Esther and the three will have to cave on their principles in order to remain. They will have to back down on what they saw as the truth. Maybe I should be saying nothing about any of this, as the situation might be to big for my little bird-brain. I just know what it was like to be manipulated and disregarded and then shown the door, so that uniformity could be protected (funny thing – it never crossed our minds to try to divide anyone!). Unless SGM has changed mightily since we left, uniformity is what the leaders will be grasping for, no matter the “collateral damage” that will be involved. This breaks my whittle tweety heart. Is their any reason that I shouldn’t be pessimistic about this outcome? I will definitely be praying.
Oh Lord, do not bring uniformity to your church, your people. Bring unity!!! This I pray with a full heart.
Thanks for listening, everyone. I sincerely hope I am wrong.
The question currently in my mind is “when is a pastor (or overseer or elder) above reproach?”
Yes, the pastors made mistakes and have repented to the three couples…supposedly. Like others have said, repetence doesn’t mean all consequences disolve into dust.
Were the actions of these pastors “below” reproach?
Think about…the ENTIRE Pastoral Team of SGCC got it WRONG with the counseling (esp BC) applications to many people (the walking wounded that have already left our church) and doctrine of seperation issue. These are just two of the nine points laid out in the letter from the three couples to the pastors. How can this happen to an entire staff…men supposedly annointed by God to lead? How many other doctrines that they preached from the pulpit in Chesapeake have they gotten wrong?
If the church treasurer of any church mishandles funds, can he be forgiven? YES!!! Is he going to keep his job? NO!!!!!
Does the inability to interpret scripture and lay it out for modern day teachings disqualify these pastors from pastoral service?
I believe it does. Wake up, people!
Billy,
Welcome! I just want to thank you for being willing to come on and stay here to share your opinion.
To all the SGC members on here I just want to say that I will be continuing to pray for you! I pray that God will continue to give you all strength and wisdom as you prepare for your family meeting. I pray that God will continue to be moving among SGC and SGM.
To everyone on here wouldn’t it be easier to just agree that we disagree? Yes, I know that many of us are still hurt ( I know I do) but we have said we wanted to hear from the other side and Billy is still brave enough to be on here. Though I don’t agree with some of my friends I do appreciate hearing from them. I think right now we just need to be praying…whether we are skeptical (and I would fit this category) about real change happening or whether we think it will happen. I love you all dearly so please don’t take it any other way
I meant to click edit but it kept freezing
When I said agree to disagree I meant on the point of Gene calling the 2 couples the enemy.
Live Wire: Great question.
My opinion is that these counterfeit “apostles” have set up a counterfeit local body with counterfeit “Christian” ideals and counterfeit “Christian” doctrine using counterfeit wisdom and knowledge. What they call loving is truly hurtful. They add to and subtract from Holy Scripture. They say they do not shepherd, yet they do not let the Lord shepherd. Their list of counterfeit feats and ideals grows longer by the year. They claim they repent and yet make no change. They maim the hurt and exalt their own.
Above reproach? Hardly.
Worthy of reproach? Most definitely.
(I realize your question was about pastors – yet the pastors are minions of those in greater authority. Greater authority has hidden behind pastors and make pastors take the blame for edicts passed down from on high. The counterfeit “apostles” are well insulated from any consequences of their false edicts.)
canary said: “If men like Keith Jacobs and Chris Lutyk (from the Fairfax Church) were loving, kind pastors, yet asked to step down for their lack of “gifting” (I happened to know the Lutyks – I don’t believe the reason – impossible!), yet their churches had no such problems as are being discussed here, then why are pastors allowed to remain who have made such serious mistakes and shown their own lack of “gifting”? I am very troubled by this. Can anyone answer this question”
I have asked the same questions. It certainly seems like what the the pastors in the SGC did are more egregious then the other cases you cite. It sure is contradictory.
I also wonder about the 3 couples and Esther. Even with the pastors admitting their mistakes, I wonder what “hard feelings” will remain with the pastors if they don’t step down. If it is like the other cases cited, I imagine it won’t be that easy for them. Thus they probably will have to leave eventually due to feeling shunned or that it isn’t their home any longer.
BY said:
“It is also unconscionable to post letters addressed to 3rd parties without the express consent of the authors. Dismissing that concern with arguments like “a blog is a blog” isn’t much of a defense.”
Where did I defend the posting of the letters by saying “a blog is a blog” ?
I was stating the obvious in regards the diverse opinions of those who post here.
Steve240,
“Lack of Gifting” is rarely the reason for dismissal. There is almost always something else going on that they do not want to disclose. It has, for many years, been that catch all phrase that allows them to remove or reassign anyone for any reason (e.g. Larry was not gifted to lead PDI). The problem with all these people who have been dismissed for lack of gifting is that they were originally installed because of their gifting. I was told by my pastor that I had a “rare gift of developing leadership in others” and then when I fell out of favor that I was “not gifted or called to be a leader”. When I challenged how that can be since God grants irrevocable gifting and calling, they admitted that they sometimes get it wrong and that gifting is ultimately determined by “fruit”. Beyond the obvious problems of circular reasoning, that doctrine makes them, not God, the ultimate arbiters of what constitutes gifting and fruit. In the end the pastor who removed me admitted that he reacted out of insecurity to some comments I made as a CG leader, and they agreed to remove the “not a leader” label from me.
There seem to be a few SGMers posting that are not impressed with the comments, and seem to be surprised at the amount of suspicion on the part of those of us who have left that the repentance of these pastors is genuine or if it will effect real change. I agree with whoever mentioned that this is because the problem is NOT these pastors or this particular church. The problems are coming from the top down and these are the men that need to set about making some major changes in doctrine and application.
Things will change in SGM because God will have his way. I personally do not have any bitterness or grudges toward SGM (though I did earlier on, which is to be expected from anyone here who is in the beginning stages, and why people like FF are much more free since she left much longer ago and has worked through many issues). There are only 2 choices when facing the fact that God is doing something in SGM: respond in pride or respond in humility.
I don’t agree with everyone that if the pastors truly repented that they necessarily need to step down, in fact, if every pastor in SGM did this how many pastors would be left? I think widescale true repentance that comes with major revelation by the Holy Spirit and public confession beginning with C.J., Harvey, etc… on down could totally transform SGM and breath wonderful new life into these churches. Or they can persist in pride and cover-up of sin, pointing accusatory fingers at the weak and wounded individuals and the ship will sink, maybe slowly, but it will sink while many people dance to pretty music in utter denial of reality. If the latter happens (and I pray not) then the lifeboats stand ready for those who wish to abandon ship and head for sunny shores.
The condemnation that some of SGMers feel when you enter into discussion here and elsewhere is probably real to a degree. I don’t think it’s right, but in light of the condemnation you so aptly dish out I think you should expect it. It is SGM’s way, and many here have not totally left all SGM ways behind, we are still influenced in varying degrees by having been immersed in SGM doctrine and culture for so long. Condemnation is not for you or any of us to wield. If God has pronounce that he will not condemn us, then we should not condemn and judge one another. James makes this clear that when we pick up the law to judge our brother we end up condemning ourselves (think Jesus’ words by the same measure you use it will be measured back to you), and then the freeing and hope filled words that follow: Mercy triumphs over judgement!!!
It is possible to bring truth to light , to call for justice for the oppressed, to address serious matters of sin in our brothers without a spirit of accusation and condemnation. Will be do this perfectly? Probably not, but I think there are several on here including Jim and Carole who are doing very well with this and are very humble to acknowledge when they get it wrong. As for any who may lean toward condemning tones, I know God is faithful and will gently and lovingly restore their souls and bind up their broken hearts, he will shower mercy and grace until all the bitterness is washed away and the life of Jesus flows out freely again. This goes for all of us, SGMers and exers.
For those of us who have left, maybe it would be good to read the comments remembering that not so long ago we were in the same boat, speaking the same words (in our own way) and would have responded probably in similar ways as one or another. I read some of the comments and while I reject all condemnation and judgement, guilt, fear and shame, I easily see that a few years back I could have been on here saying the same things, finding it utterly impossible to believe any charges against my beloved leaders.
I also just want to say that I recognize at times my own tone has been harsh or sarcastic, I am a black and white kind of person. I won’t tone down the truth, but I will try to make more of an effort to make my love more evident in my words.
Forgiveness, reconciliation, bitterness, repentance. I hear a lot of these terms being used throughout these posts. I also hear references to “knowing their hearts”, intents, and motives. Something that seems to get lost in these murky waters, and perhaps continues to fuel those of us who desire to see God’s glory made known through our lives and all of life’s circumstances is the idea of consequences.
I for one have full confidence and faith that God is moving in the hearts and lives of all He has called unto himself. For those within SGM, and those beyond, God is using all things to work together for the good. I truly believe that these things coming to light is a blessing for people on either side of these offenses. Do I believe these pastor’s are taking their heart’s to task, earnestly desiring to humble themselves before God and man, YES! Do I believe that we all stumble and fall and that it is God’s lavish grace and kindness that leads us to repentance? YES! Can I know the hearts or motives of these men, either now or when they were exercising their authority through counsel or any other aspect of their role as leaders? Absolutely not! There are questions like these and others, that if we are acting in accordance with our confession of faith, we must answer in light of the truth of God’s word.
As a firefighter/paramedic, there is a “cardinal rule”, or a governing philosophy that trumps all others. It is simply “to do no harm”. When I am called upon to render services to people requiring or requesting assistance, and through my actions or interventions “do harm” to them, I am accountable. Whether the harm is due to acts of ccommission or omission, regardless of my intent or motive, I am held responsible and accountable to those actions.
While I can think of no single specific scripture that speaks to this (maybe some of you can help me), the scriptures which speak of being above reproach (1 Tim) and blameless (Titus) do weigh in and inform us here. The privilege of aspiring to be an overseer is indeed a noble one! Obviously, this comes with the awareness and caution that not many of us should presume to be teachers, because those who teach (handling God’s word) will be judged more strictly. Let’ not forget, these leaders are stewards, given gifts to serve/feed/care for/equip God’s people, his bride. So, with that charge, “do no harm” definitely applies. Herein, in my humble opinion, is part of all this that needs addressed. Has harm been done? Unquestionably, undeniably, yes! Not just here with Esther, but in many instances, in various locations across SGM (a fraction of the full measure of those represented on these blogs). No matter the intent or motivation (pure, wrought with sin, or plain ignorance), these leaders have done harm, the effects of which are not easily measurable.
This harm is what the men involved here at SGCC, and those who have perpetrated harmful practices across SGM, must give an account. There should be an expectation of all those hurt or offended or wronged, what they can identify as “fruit in keeping with repentance”. In other words, discernible, measurable, definitive consequences.
Steve240,
Thanks for responding to my question. There seems to be no answer, right? I’ll just have to scratch my head and wonder…
As far as Esther and the three couples…being called enemies of the church doesn’t bode well for the meeting on the 25th. We will have to wait and see. Who knows, maybe everyone there will end up crying and repenting and hugging. Wouldn’t that be great? Though not the norm. The norm will be to get everyone into a uniform mindset (that is, what the Pastors want them to think), including the dissenters, who will have to drop their case and fall in line, or get ousted eventually. I believe, based on past behavior by SGM, that there will be some sort of church discipline. Personally, I’m hoping for the hugging and crying. Is there any reason to expect a different outcome than the usual “my way or the highway” routine? Gosh, I hope so.
Doug, you are really eloquent! A friend of yours, Doug, and a new friend of ours was counseling me today about all this. We were talking about the “how.” Say these men see their error and want to repent. How does one go about turning such a large ship as this and pointing it back in the right direction? Repentance is great, but then what? His idea was to have CJ go to someone else, someone outside the denomination. To seek out someone like Terry Virgo, a trusted friend who is not a part of SGM. When you have been involved in deception (let’s face it, the enemy gained a stronghold here), you may need some outside eyes to help you restructure.
I’m going to be praying for clarity and also for a way out for everyone. God is creative. I know He can do this! In fact, what my friends have done reminds me so much of Martin Luther pinning his theses on the Whittenburg door. Reformation IS possible.
Terry Virgo wants no part of this. The “Christian Statesmen” of our day are silent.
This only emboldens CJ and company, who feel that this place has no Biblical reason to exist, since nothing that happens within SGM is any of my business.
I guess I have a different view of the Body.
We can’t look to national leaders for help. We must act on our own, by God’s grace.
canary
Well Greg left a good explanation of how SGM uses “lack of gifting” for something else they really don’t want to say. It certainly does appear that these men at SGC showed more of a “lack of gifting” in a number of areas than a lot of other pastors. It will be interesting to see what happens.
Also, it was sad to read your story of what happened to you and your husband. It is sad that that this is such repeating pattern within SGM. Unfortunately the leadership doesn’t do well with even honest questioning. I really wonder how they can serve with a clear conscience when they do these sort of things? Maybe they think the end justifies the means?
One more comment to follow on my previous post and to speak to a comment FF made saying “Reformation IS possible.”
Yes! Reformation is not only possible, it is God’s heart. Opening the eyes to the blind, healing the sick, breaking strongholds, setting captives free, the ministry of reconciliation, preparing for Himself a pure, spotless, bride! God is at work here. This is not about he said/we said, or we’re right and they’re wrong. Each of us would do well to pray fervently for His perspective (His kingdom come, his will be done on earth as it is in heaven).
That being said, leaders of SGCC and all across SGM’s, from the leadership teams all the way down, I implore you! Consider what is coming to light. These blogs are filled with your brothers and sisters in Christ who have spent years laboring with you for the sake of the gospel. Godly, mature, passionate, people eager to run hard after God, who desire to see communities transformed through the gospel expressed and lived out in local church’s, are stumbling and falling, left battered and bleeding as a direct result of some of the practices common to SGM.
Reformation here, within SGM? Only if there are eyes to see, and ears to hear, and hearts that understand, and then, they would turn, and the Lord will heal. That turning will be easily discernible to those who have the mind of Christ. You won’t have to squint your eyes, or have to sift through the all too common cliche’s or “SGM-isms”. The old “you’re not believing the best” will be absent because the best will be obvious and believable. This is the tenor of what should be hoped for.
Please join with me in lifting up our brothers and sisters at SGCC, all across SGM, and for each of us who share these experiences, for the flood gates of God’s grace to open and rain down on each of us.
Steve240,
The “end” they are seeking is uniformity, no division, no mess that would spread through their organization. I believe that is the goal because I have seen it happening. People’s ideas, hearts, feelings, thoughts are not as important as keeping all the members on one page, the page that the leaders insist on. Any deviation causes them to over react, to silence dissent, while appearing to their supporters as being humble and wise. Look how quickly the Ches leaders called a meeting when they thought the three were going to send out an email. Apparently, these leaders jumped the gun, and went behind the couples’ backs to keep the mess from spreading. To not even notify the couples about the meeting was pure cowardice, and a fast attempt to put a finger in the dike. This is very bad form.
I still think church discipline will be the end result, as the leaders pull together to stabalize their church. There is simply too much for them to loose otherwise. Calous? Yes, I guess. We’ve all seen it before. That is why we are here. Could it be possible that this meeting on the 25th will be different? Again, I hope I’m wrong, because it would be wonderful to see the Holy Spirit bring unity.