I first heard of the situation in Chesapeake on December 23 via email. I’ve since received many emails telling me the same story. I have not been contacted by “the three couples”, so I would ask SGCC to not add this to your list of their supposed sins. As I was composing the Chesapeake story, I received an email with the following letter attached. The letter was written by one of the three couples and sent to their care group, and to 7 other friends who asked for it. Please note that curiosity was aroused by Gene Emerson, and that none of the 3 couples chose to “tell it to the church”. This letter was sent to me by a friend of one of the three couples. This friend does not attend SGC Chesapeake. I’ve changed Esther’s real name to Esther. All other non pastoral names have been replaced with a single X. This letter is dated January 6.
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Over these last years, we as a couple and also both individually, have been involved in the lives of many people at SGC. During these years we have observed disturbing actions and even cover up of possible criminal activity (involving church members) by the pastors of SGC. Additionally, abusive counseling has been given to many of our friends in the membership (all will remain unnamed in this letter except for Esther). A pattern of abusive counseling and a pattern of application of wrong doctrine emerged. Esther, who has given us permission to use her name, had repeatedly appealed to the SGC pastors for help but to no avail. In fact, what she did receive was abusive counseling. Esther asked X to attend a counseling session with her. He was shocked by the behavior of the pastors and became greatly concerned. In September, Esther asked Gene Emerson to become involved in her circumstances because she had become fearful of our pastors and was desperate for help. Gene Emerson refused to become involved. Esther’s request for help from other apostolic leaders including Dave Harvey and Steve Shank during that time was also refused. It was obvious that the system of accountability had failed within the pastoral staff and that the leadership above them was not going to become involved. Because of the serious nature of the issues (not only the Esther case but many cases that we had been involved with for years) and the obvious fact that the apostolic team was not willing to become involved, our consciences would not allow us to remain silent any longer. For years, we had blindly trusted our pastors and the apostolic leaders and actually made excuses for their actions. However, the time came when we could no longer turn a blind eye.
Only after Esther wrote a final letter to the pastors withdrawing her membership and once again explaining her many grievances, did the pastors publically confess and repent to her. We are very thankful that the pastors have confessed and repented to Esther and others. However, because of the pattern and serious nature of the conduct of these pastors, many questions remained including questions regarding their ability to interpret Scripture correctly, their attempt to develop faulty doctrine and their ability to effectively manage the finances of the church.
Several meetings took place in September and October by individuals and couples with various pastors regarding these issues. A meeting with the entire pastoral staff was requested on Sunday, November 9th by ourselves and two other couples who were intimately involved and had great concerns. Following the process specified in 1Timothy 5:19, we presented a list of very serious concerns to the pastors at a meeting in which only Keith Breault and Brett Campbell attended. Several times during this meeting, Keith stated that we were free to leave the church with his blessing even though we never had any intention of nor stated that we wanted to leave the church. We waited for over a month for a response from the pastors but heard nothing from them.
During this month of fervent prayer and Bible study, it became obvious to us that Keith Breault, Brett Campbell, and Trevor Haynes had disqualified themselves from pastoral leadership. Over the past 11 years, we had seen X, X, and X dismissed as pastors. In each case we were told that there were no character issues causing their dismissal. We were told that they were disqualified because of a lack of pastoral giftings. In the case of Keith Breault, Brett Campbell, and Trevor Haynes, serious issues of character and judgment had been raised. Based on scripture, their actions, conduct and behavior disqualified them as pastors because they were no longer above reproach (Titus 2:7-8). They have demonstrated a pattern of lack of godly wisdom, godly judgment, and godly discernment. Because of the seriousness of these issues, we asked for yet another meeting.
At the next meeting, on December 16th with the pastors, Gene Emerson and others, we read a letter with the concerns and appealed to Keith Breault, Brett Campbell, and Trevor Haynes to step down as pastors. We believed that their stepping down would allow the church to be spared from the many details surrounding these issues.
In this letter, we stated that if a response was not given within three days, we would begin the process of going to the membership. This three day time period was given because the pastors never responded to our meeting of November 9th. At the end of the meeting, X asked Gene for his assessment of what had happened and how our pastors had gotten to this point (she asked, “Gene, what do you think happened here?”). Gene’s response was that these men had sinned. Gene also said that he had sinned against and hurt his very own people in his church when he was a young pastor. He said that these pastors just needed to be taught and needed to learn a different way. This response was very disturbing and grievous to us. The perception to us based on what he said was that he took these issues very casually, and that basically it was no big deal since he had done the very same things to his flock when he was a young pastor. For a man in his position, this response was irresponsible and showed a total lack of care for the people of SGC. We left the meeting discouraged, believing that Gene had not taken these issues seriously.
The following day Gene responded with a short email stating that plans were being put into place to look at these issues. Again, his response was very casual and in no way indicated that he realized the seriousness of the issues. We responded later in the week with a letter to him from the three couples. Gene had the opportunity at this meeting as well as in the days following to convey to us that he realized the extreme nature of these issues. He did not do this and in fact, his actions following the meeting convinced us that he continued to take the issues casually. Furthermore, Gene participated in a meeting at our church on December 20th which we believe to be very ungodly.
On Saturday, December 20th, the pastors of SGC called a by- invitation- only meeting to a select group of the membership of SGC (60+ people). Neither we nor the other two couples involved in the November 9th and December 16th meetings were invited. Also, only three people in our care group were invited. This meeting was a most unbiblical and ungodly meeting for several reasons:
1. There is no scriptural precedent for even having a meeting such as this.
2. There was no communication prior to the meeting with the three couples informing us that we were to be accused before a large number of the membership.
3. The three couples were not invited to this meeting to state our case and yet Gene and the pastors slandered our character, our reputation, and our names before this whole group at the meeting.
4. The whole membership of the church was not invited even though Keith Breault’s email file name for the meeting was “Family Meeting” with the three couples names stated.
5. Gene and the pastors brought church discipline against us without following Matthew 18:15-17. Gene nor any of the pastors EVER contacted us prior to this meeting to discuss ANY of the issues. They went straight to the “select” portion of the membership without notifying us in ANY manner.
6. Gene and the pastors told the people at the meeting that we had sinned and that they should pray for our repentance. Prior to this meeting, they had not in any way told us that they thought that we had sinned and that we should repent; in fact they thanked us for bringing our concerns forward at the meeting on December 16th.
7. When asked by those present (twice) at the December 20th meeting for a time to ask questions, Gene and the pastors said no.
8. During this meeting on December 20th, they did not present the issues of concern that the three couples had brought to the pastors on November 9th and December 16th. In fact, they did not accurately articulate the events or the time frame that led up to this private meeting of December 20th.
9. An announcement was made at this meeting that X and another care group leader had been removed from care group leadership. No communication as to this action had been given to either man or to their care groups prior to this meeting. In fact, all the people present at the December 20th meeting unrelated to these two care groups knew of this action before the two care group leaders or their care group members were even told. These two men were later notified of this action via email by Chris Mangold. This notification was sent on Sunday evening to X’s work email. There was no consideration shown to these two men or to the members of their care groups.
10. Many church members have conveyed to us that they are outraged by the very nature of this meeting. Gene, the apostle, accused us by name; slandered our character and lied about our actions. This clearly constitutes slander and defamation of character. There were many witnesses at this meeting. Is this the conduct befitting an apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ?
We have heard from numerous sources that Gene and the pastors called this meeting because we were going to send out an email with an attached letter to the membership right away. They never contacted us asking us if this was our intention nor did they communicate with us at all about this. They assumed that this was to be our action and they assumed wrongly! This was absolutely not true and was never stated by us. Our letter to the pastors stated “Should we hear nothing definitive from you within three days, we will begin that process. “ As of the time of that meeting, we had no definitive plan for the next steps of this process. It was never our intention for the church to know of this at that time, especially right before Christmas.
After we heard about the by-invitation-only meeting to which we were not invited, an email was sent with our letter of issues to 8 recipients who had previously expressed concerns to us. Until this email today, we have not sent a letter out to a broad range of people or to the membership. After Gene and the pastors “warned” the congregation that an email and letter were coming, they aroused curiosity. People are actually calling us requesting a copy of the letter of issues that was presented to the pastors.
During the meeting on December 20th at 6:04 PM, an email was sent to everyone in the church membership by the financial advisory team (see below) informing the church that a letter was being sent to them that was divisive and untrue. These men had not communicated with us to determine our intentions nor had they spoken with us at all since the December 16th meeting. In fact, as far as we know, these men only became involved in this on December 16th. These men are not pastors nor do they have any authority, yet they had access to the church’s email system and directory. This leads us to believe that the pastors condoned this mass email. In fact, Chris Mangold has stated to others that the pastors did indeed condone this mass email and in fact gave permission for the email to go out. This email was followed by a second email Saturday night by Keith Breault to the entire membership basically communicating the same information from the financial team’s email. Again, Keith had not spoken with any of us and yet he assumed that we were sending out a mass email and letter without even verifying our intentions. The header of the body of Keith’s email stated “Family Meeting – the three couples names”. Again, our names were publically revealed and misrepresentations were given to the whole membership concerning us.
The result of these actions by Gene, as well as by the pastors of SGC and Messer’s X, X and X resulted in a major upheaval throughout the whole church. Gene Emerson, the pastors of SGC as well as these other three men did this to our church; we did not! Did we try to do things as scripture dictates and follow biblical principles? Absolutely! Did we at anytime have a motive or intention of divisiveness? Absolutely not! Were we bitter and vindictive? Absolutely not! Did we pick up an offense of another? Absolutely not! Did we do things with a heart full of love for Jesus Christ and a love for His people? Absolutely! Did we do this to stop the abuses of the flock at SGC and to expose grave darkness? Absolutely! Could Gene, other apostles or the pastors have intervened at any point and stopped our involvement? Absolutely! By demonstrating true concern for the flock of SGC; by demonstrating that they understood the serious nature of the issues; and by demonstrating that they would take decisive action concerning the issues presented, we would have gladly handed this over to them. Neither Gene nor any of our pastors did this!
Please hear us clearly. We are very thankful that the pastors have met with members of the flock who have been victims of abusive pastoral counseling or who have been neglected by the SGC pastors. We are very thankful that they have confessed and repented. It is our hope that much forgiveness, healing and restoration will take place in the hearts of the people who have been abused and in the church as a whole. Also, we are very thankful that the pastors realized that they were in error in presenting a “new” doctrine on marriage and separation based on erroneous interpretation of suffering. Even though they were already presenting this “new” doctrine in the New Members class, we are thankful that they stopped the process of submitting this to the whole church. However, this does not change the fact that these pastors have disqualified themselves according to Scripture and are no longer above reproach.
We have no shame, condemnation or guilt as a result of our actions. We have walked in the fear of God throughout this entire process. Our hearts are broken over the condition of our beloved church, our beloved friends and our beloved pastors. We have loved SGM, SGC, the people and these pastors. We have cared for our pastors and served them for years. Gene and the pastors of SGC have done much damage to this church but we are confident in God’s faithfulness and His great love for His flock. We are confident that He will be glorified and that He will bring forth redemption, restoration and reconciliation in His church.
After much prayer and in the fear of God and out of our love for you and this church, we believe that we are obligated to bring to you the list of serious concerns that we brought forth to the pastors on December 16th :
1. Implementing an erroneous interpretation of scripture as though it were settled doctrine/policy on marriage, separation and divorce (toward several women in the church). A “position paper” was promised by Keith that was to justify the “no marital separation” policy, but was never presented nor even verbally explained to the church body at the time of implementation. Implementing this unofficial doctrine/new interpretation of scripture resulted in the threat of church discipline to all three of these women even though there was no definitive proof of the particular sin (adultery and/or abandonment), which really does justify church discipline. The threat of church discipline was used to control and manipulate these women into doing the will of the pastors and not the will of God. These women were fearful of further abuse from their husbands and yet their voices were not heard. Each woman left Sovereign Grace Church under duress. Titus 1:9 very clearly states that pastors/elders are to operate in sound doctrine: “holding fast the faithful word as he has been taught, that he may be able, by sound doctrine, both to exhort and to convict those who contradict.”
2. Error in the doctrine of suffering: That women and children must stay in abusive situations (even unto death) because they are called to suffer until such time as God would remove the abusing spouse is questionable at best. This interpretation of suffering goes against the principle of life that God established in the Ten Commandments (“thou shalt not murder”) and does not protect the sanctity of life. In fact, this particular focus on suffering has little, if anything, to do with suffering for the faith but would force the victim (and his/her children) to potentially suffer criminal violence at the hands of the abusive spouse.
3. Lack of care and compassion bordering on neglect for the weak and broken in the church. This was evidenced through the situation with the X Family. Very little practical or financial help was given to this family even though at times they lacked money to buy even food. Scripture makes it very clear that God is very concerned with the needy and downtrodden: 1 Samuel 2:8, Psalm 12:5-6, Psalm 10:14,18, Psalm 40:17, 70:5, 72:12, 74:21, etc. Additionally, last year’s total church expenditure for benevolence of $1,051 gives further evidence that care and compassion for the needy barely exists. That amount is shameful in a church our size. Is it our church’s policy not to give benevolence to needy members and instead have them rely on others – their care group, friends, family, etc.? If so, that policy should be clarified.
4. Disingenuous communication to the membership. It was very disturbing that the congregation was informed at the Sunday Night Family Meeting in October, that the pastoral staff was “caring” for Esther, X and the children, and indeed, had cared for them. The interpretation of that statement might come down to what “caring” means, and how the pastors define it. However, what was very much implied was that practical assistance, as well as compassion, was given. This was not true, but was clearly implied by the way in which it was communicated to the congregation by Keith’s statement. What we expected to be a favorable evening, in light of the fact that Esther was not brought under church discipline, proved to be saddening to those involved in Esther’s’s plight. The statement about care was deceptive, painting the pastoral staff in a “good light” in the midst of a dark circumstance. Titus 2:7-8 states, “in all things showing yourself to be a pattern of good works; in doctrine showing integrity, reverence, incorruptibility, sound speech that cannot be condemned, that one who is an opponent may be ashamed, having nothing evil to say of you.”
5. Renaming the Building Fund a “Mission Fund”. This basically falls under category 4 above, but when new members and visitors hear of an opportunity to give to our mission fund, they picture missionaries, foreign missions, etc. Disillusionment and anger result when people discover that our “mission” is to pay off the building at an accelerated rate.
6. Practicing a counseling model that condemns and disciplines the victim as if they are the abuser. In cases where abuse has been perpetrated against a member of our church, the victim has often not been cared for but rather treated as though their sin was somehow responsible for, or mitigated the abuse. Rather than listening to those being abused, the pastors have chosen to embrace the abusers, caring for and discipling them to the neglect of the victims. Repeatedly, counsel for the victim has focused on the victim’s sin even though blatant and at times criminal abuse had occurred against them. The root of this counseling method seems to be the reverse of “I’m ok, You’re ok”. It has become “You (the abuser) aren’t ok, but you (the victim) YOU’RE NOT OK EITHER!” The good intentions come from a faulty assumption that since indwelling sin is so pervasive, everybody (including every victim) has a log (perhaps many logs) in their eye and we pastors must aggressively “help” them focus primarily on their own sins. Instead of realizing that Biblical cases often include both guilty and innocent parties, this model deals only with two (or more) basically guilty parties. The victim must be made ready in advance to carefully and willingly extend lavish grace, compassion and forgiveness on their abuser (there were many victims of this).
7. Non-biblical and irresponsible stewardship. In the church’s 2007 Financial Report, total expenses amounted to $1,936,518 while total revenues were only $1,707,372. This adds up to a net over-expenditure of $229,146. This puts the church in a potentially dangerous financial position. Even though the church was operating in the red in early 2007, we believe that a rather significant amount was spent on the 20th Anniversary Celebration in the third quarter. From what we can see on the Report, it appears that it may have amounted to nearly $20,000. The church recently sponsored Dave Ramsey’s teaching series on financial stewardship for our members and guests. If we were to submit our church’s recent financial track record to Mr. Ramsey, we believe that SGC would fail the test of sound financial responsibility.
8. Scattering the sheep. The removal of X from care group leadership illustrates both a lack of discernment and wisdom. By all accounts, X is a man of impeccable character and a proven leader. Members of his former group agree that the group was in excellent condition when suddenly the group was shut down and scattered. The reasons given for his removal and the means by which it was done are, at the very least, suspect. This and other groups have been treated to the same method. Our church is and has been built upon relationships, and to fail to maintain the established relationships within care groups scatters the sheep. If a new leader is needed (and in some cases the need is legitimate), that leader should firstly be sought from within the group itself (he’s already a trusted part of the group). If no one within the group qualifies, surely someone else being brought in is preferable to disbanding (which amounts to scattering). You have seriously and unwisely underestimated the emotional and spiritual impact of disbanding and scattering on sheep who have invested heavily in their care group experience.
9. Presenting a distorted gospel. The gospel as presented from our pulpit has been very one-sided. It’s been weighted so heavily upon the doctrine of sin that a lack of hope and joy are driving numbers of people out of the church. We love and appreciate the doctrine of sin, but without balance, the eyes of the flock are left upon their sinfulness and the death on the cross. The gospel is meant to be good news, but our over-emphasis upon the sinfulness of man leaves people feeling discouraged, disheartened and depressed. Remember that the cross itself is not unique; many thousands were crucified. The uniqueness of Christ’s cross is that He is no longer dead. There is no reason to celebrate the cross if there is no resurrection (1 Cor. 15:13-19). This aspect of the gospel is largely missing in our church. Alongside of the doctrine of sin, we should have been hearing at the very least an equal portion of the “overcomers”, our victory in Jesus, the “new creation in Christ”, and the power of the Holy Spirit to “master” sin (Gen. 4:7) etc.
We strongly believe that through the power of the Holy Spirit and through genuine humility, the damage that has been done to SGC can be corrected. We believe that Scripture would call for Gene Emerson and the pastors to go before our church with the following actions:
• speak the truth concerning the events leading up to and including the December 20th meeting;
• present and discuss the issues that the three couples brought to the pastors on November 9th and December 16th to the church; and
• speak the truth about the intentions and character of the three couples and repent for slandering and defaming our names and reputations in the December 20th meeting.
We are hopeful that the unity of the body can be restored and that great healing will take place throughout SGC. We love each of you and pray for God’s grace and most abundant blessings to cover you as you walk through this process. We pray that He will give you great wisdom and discernment and we appeal to you to open your eyes and your hearts to hear God clearly.
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The following letter was sent to the entire membership of SGCC at 6:06 PM on December 20 via email by the SGCC Financial Advisory Team. Here is the preface, placed in the body of the email: We are writing in response to recent allegations that have been made against the pastors. Please read the important attached document and join us in continuing to pray. I personally love a prayer request mixed in with character assassination. I’m sure God is fond of the practice as well.
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To the leaders and congregation of Sovereign Grace Church:
As longtime members of Sovereign Grace Church we are writing in response to recent allegations that have been made against the pastors by three other couples in the church. Earlier this week the three couples met with the Pastors, Gene Emerson, and with us. At the meeting they presented a letter in which a number of grievances were set forth and which demanded the immediate resignation of Keith Breault, Trevor Haynes and Brett Campbell as pastors of Sovereign Grace Church. If their demands were not met, the couples promised to present these allegations and demands directly to the entire congregation after three days. The demands were made as if these allegations had already been fully investigated, confirmed to be true in every respect and that judgment was now required to be executed. Although Gene and Doug both appealed to them to reconsider their position in light of Biblical truth on the matter, they have refused.
Although these are dearly loved friends, we strongly disagree with and oppose the approach and process they have demanded for the following reasons:
1. 1 Timothy 5: 19-21 provides instruction about the process to be used when bringing a charge against an elder/pastor. This involves an appeal to apostolic ministry for evaluation and correction as warranted, as opposed to an appeal directly to the congregation.
2. This scriptural process is the only one supported by Sovereign Grace Ministries. The alternative to this process would be to divorce ourselves from both scripture and the apostolic care and support of Sovereign Grace Ministries.
3. No matter how well intended, the practicle outcome of the approach demanded can only lead to division and great harm to our beloved church body.
4. The pastors have already invited Gene Emerson, Dave Harvey and other leaders to activley participate in this process.
Since the time of our involvement we have seen first hand that the pastors have demonstrated a teachable heart and fully embraced the process of evaluation. We have not observed any inclination to excuse themselves during this process, in fact we have seen them take initiative to embrace change and seek forgiveness with offended parties. We are personally challenged by the humility they have demonstrated during this time.
We ask that you join us in continuing to pray for the apostolic team, our pastors and all of those involved as we all seek to glorify God through this process.
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On December 20 at 11:44 PM the following letter was emailed to the congregation of SGCC by their senior pastor, Keith Breault. This is really a nice 1 2 3 combo. The Finance team emails the church at 6:06 PM, Gene Emerson slanders the 3 couples before an invitation-only audience, and the sr pastor closes the show with a midnight email. All in one night. I’m thinking this is probably a coincidence. The following is the letter from the sr pastor.
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As I write this I am acutely aware of and thankful for the joy and comfort we share in Jesus Christ!
I have written this letter to the membership of Sovereign Grace Church, Chesapeake VA, to update you on a recent chain of events. Our hope is to prepare you for a disturbing e-mail that some have threatened to circulate throughout the church.
Three couples, have brought a list of concerns to our pastoral team with a demand that three pastors, Trevor Haynes, Brett Campbell, and myself resign within three days or they would share their charges with the church.
Though there is something to be learned from some of these charges, the pastors, Gene Emerson and I cannot agree with most of their accusations. Though we want to believe the best of their intentions, after extensively and exhaustively listening to their charges on two separate occasions (most recently in the presence of four objective witnesses, including Gene Emerson), we are concerned by the inaccuracy of their allegations.
One of the charges refers to three recent counseling situations in which we erred by requiring people to adhere to a standard relating to marital separation not explicitly expressed in Scripture. Though our motives were to see these marriages restored, our counseling had a heavy-handed effect – harkening to a narrower path than God commands. Furthermore, our expressions of practical care, though existent, fell short of what they could have and should have been. This grieves us tremendously and we have asked forgiveness and God’s grace, we have experienced joyful reconciliation and look to Him to continue that work.
My concern for us to walk in truth is compounded by my concern for us to walk in unity. The allegations made by this group ends with the demand that three pastors resign under the threat of public exposure. In their words:
“It is our hope and desire to preserve as much unity as possible in the days ahead. That will largely depend on your response to our proposal… Your stepping down will allow us to spare the church exposure to many of the details surrounding the issues outlined above. We encourage you to consider carefully your failure to embrace this proposal.”
However, God has appointed structures of leadership for the care and fruitfulness of the church, that produce safety in the way the church is governed. Nowhere in Scripture do see members usurping the oversight of pastors. God has ordained a plurality of leadership so that we can all be built up in Christ. There is a very helpful resource on church government entitled, “Polity: Serving and Leading the Local Church.” You can order a copy or download it free of charge. Here is the link:
(A link was inserted to Dave Harvey’s polity statement)
As pastors, we remain in a posture of knowing that we, as shepherds, are also sheep. We, too, need the Gospel and we need transforming grace constantly. While recognizing that pastors must be held to higher standards of conduct and biblical discernment, we are also being sanctified. Our mutual need for the Gospel is the basis of our fellowship. As pastors, we derive both admonition and comfort in these words from Paul to Timothy (as an apostle when he received this command): “Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the Word of truth.”
As a pastoral team, we welcome correction and the goodness of pursuing reconciliation when our shortcomings offend. Many of the things God has brought to light over the last two months have resulted in repentance and more grace in caring for you, His church. As always, we have pursued Gene’s counsel. We have also sought the input of other pastors who have been generous with their time and counsel. This process should encourage us all to take initiative to communicate openly. Please anticipate your pastors asking for ways in which we can better serve you. Also, please do not hesitate to contact us with any questions, comments or concerns.
Our prayers are with you and for this church. Our trust is in the risen, reigning Savior who holds all things together by the power of His Word. We are also praying for our brothers and sisters who brought these demands.
We invite you to bring any questions, concerns or observation, to the pastoral team or the members of the financial review committee Doug Davis, Chuck Snader and Todd Barstow.
“But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son, cleanses us from all sin.” 1 John 1:7
Rejoicing in the power of Jesus and in the unity of the Holy Spirit!
Keith Breault, on behalf of the pastoral team.
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I’ll let these documents speak for themselves for now.
I’m beginning to lose hope that this isn’t going on in churches all over the place, even outside of sgm. If big churches are having these scandals and cover ups, seems like small ones would too, maybe even more – where everyone is close and sins against each other and it’s easier to get into fights. Maybe it’s the same in either church. We’re all just rotten sinners in need of someone to save us. I want to leave my big church, but I almost don’t have faith to go to a small church either. Its as if everything I ever knew were just a hoax.
Oh Lord bring the day when we shall see your Face and sin will be no more!!
Jim, I guess the cats comming out of the bag huh…what simular situations that people have been cowarding through for years in the florida churches. When I read the column under recent posts there is one titled…”trying not to puke” I feel that way each and every time truth is revealed this way exactly the same for “my old church”
I am so sorry for these above couples, you are in my prayers.
Wow! I really have no words… Wow!
Having heard Esther’s story first, this just makes me sick to my stomach. Those 3 couples are truly courageous and I respect them even more after reading this. Thank you for sticking up for the needy and downtrodden! Thank you for sticking up for women who are being abused! Thank you for putting your foot down when these controlling pastors try to rewrite doctrine to suit their agendas! You are all in my prayers.
Eponine, take heart! This is really disappointing and distressing stuff to read, but I personally have NEVER experienced anything like this outside of SGM. I don’t think this has anything to do with a big vs. small church. If you decide to look for a new church I pray that you find a safe, loving church family soon – like many other readers on this blog.
Jim – thanks for posting. The letters speak for themselves. It just shows that this situation, Noel’s situation and many, many others are handled with lies and deceit. First, the slander and call into question those who stood with Esther – here is someone in a really, really bad situation and 3 couples stand with her and give her support. What happens? The church leadership is afraid of anything that would make them or the church look bad. So, they deal with it by lying and deceit. I attended this very church from 88 – 94 and much of what was in the letter is why I left (among a longer laundry list of issues). This is how they handle anyone who has a problem with they church. I am not at all suprised that shank ignored Esther’s plea for help, that is what he does. Shank was the founding pastor of the church and he is someone who has shown that he has an issue telling the truth. He sure did lay the foundation down there.
How many others have been damaged? a CGR steps up and is asking like a leader (instead of an SGM foot soldier), questions what is going on, and BAM! His name is dragged through the mud for things he didn’t do. This is how they always handle things – lies and secrecy. It was interesting that the CGR mentioned pastors removed for “lack of gifting” – we see that alot across SGM (just look at some of Jim’s other posts, most recently uh oh, steve shank is here). Lies and deceit.
Those still stuck in the Chesapeake church – it’s time to break free. The pastors and “apostle” are3 still running the show! Any voice of questioning will be shut down via lies and the person that asks the questions will be pushed out of the church, if they don’t submit.
I am not suprised they handled it this way – they have done this kind of slander of those who question in the past. Before the advent of the internet, it was easy for them to get away with it. Now, everyone will know. People will either choose to ignore the truth and stay comfortable or stand up for what is right.
I understand how hard it is for the current members – it’s almost like finding out your dad cheated on your mom. Then you find out they had a kid. Then you find out that it’s not the only half sibling you have. Prior, you had trusted him and he was your hero. Now, that has all changed – his actions where not that of a hero. IAt first, you don’t believe it, you know “dad would never do that”, then you come to acceptance and have to deal with the issue, or cover it up, pretend it never happened and go on your marry way, even though you will have to deal with issues.
Members of SGC – Chesapeake, VA, it’s time to break free. There are great people on this board willing to support you.
There’s something in the Sr.P’s letter that I just don’t get:
Furthermore, our expressions of practical care, though existent, fell short of what they could have and should have been. This grieves us tremendously and we have asked forgiveness and God’s grace, we have experienced joyful reconciliation and look to Him to continue that work.
Reconciliation with whom, exactly? It almost sounds like he’s talking about being reconciled to God, but in a way that implies “yes we screwed up, but we said ‘sorry’so it doesn’t count! Leave us alone!”
There’s definitely quite a bit of chest-thumping in that e-mail, too. Does he not realize that congregations have always had the ability to veto a pastor’s presumed authority… with their feet?
Talk about sounding like the Wizard of Oz… it’s all a bunch of smoke and mirrors, folks. If the “pastors” and “apostles” are acting in a manner unworthy of the Gospel, and refusing to repent or to adhere to the Biblical qualifications for elders, then they’re really wolves and false apostles. Our responsibility is to identify them and then run the other way.
Freedom,
You hit the nail right on the head. Preemptive slander has been the MO for dealing with those who have disagreements in so many stories here, that one almost wonders if that technique takes up a good 6 out of the 9 months of the PC. I want to echo the call: it is indeed time to break free. Make no mistake, it hurts like crazy when you leave, and when your “friends” turn on you, and the men in leadership you once trusted lie about you. But obeying the conscience your Heavenly Father gave you is worth it, both in this life and the one to come.
It’s the same story over and over again. There is so much that could be said about all this, but I will just point out this part of the Sr. Pastor’s letter:
However, God has appointed structures of leadership for the care and fruitfulness of the church, that produce safety in the way the church is governed. Nowhere in Scripture do see members usurping the oversight of pastors.
I think that word ‘usurping’ really says everything about how many pastors in SGM, and evidently the pastors as the Chesapeake church, understand their role and the role of church members. In other words, they are the head honchos, no one can ever question them, and to do so is a sinful challenging of the line of command (“structures of leadership,” to use his words).
Shameful.
Oh, Lord, Jesus…..
“How long oh God….How long will you let evil prosper….how long to sing this song…yet, I will trust in the Lord my Rock, even if my eyes fail-he will not fail me…”
My heart aches for Esther and these couples- I did not go to this church, but I have seen this type of preemptive slander at another SG church…it hurts so bad to see people you trust lying thru their teeth, about good people who’s only sin was to disagree with a pastor about anything….
May God’s Peace Fill you -know that many feel your pain and are praying for you-you are brave
with jesus’ love-mm
“You can’t mutiny! I’m the Captain, and what I say goes!”
It would be hilarious if it weren’t so gut-wrenchingly sad.
This story echoes, in so many ways, what my son and DIL went through. The lies and character assassinations as an attempt to cover up their own sins….what kind of pastor does that? Heck, what kind of Christian does that??? I feel so sick to read yet another story of SGM’s ‘apostles’ and ‘pastor’s behaving in ways so grievous that it makes me wonder even about their Christianity, let alone their ability to be leaders.
I am heartsick……..
You Know Keith-it seems to me that one way you could “serve the flock” is to step down…just a thought…a Biblical one at that…
Okay this is what i am most flabergasted about :
“1. 1 Timothy 5: 19-21 provides instruction about the process to be used when bringing a charge against an elder/pastor. This involves an appeal to apostolic ministry for evaluation and correction as warranted, as opposed to an appeal directly to the congregation.”
Okay the passage states:
“19Do not entertain an accusation against an elder unless it is brought by two or three witnesses. 20Those who sin are to be rebuked publicly, so that the others may take warning. 21I charge you, in the sight of God and Christ Jesus and the elect angels, to keep these instructions without partiality, and to do nothing out of favoritism. ”
Where in the world do they get that this involves and appeal to apostolic ministry?????
They did come with multiple witnesses, how are they in the wrong???
In fact a lot of commentaries take vs 20 to mean that when elders are to be rebuked they are to be rebuked publically – such as when paul rebuked peter in front of the church – which is exactly what they were doing. I am flabergasted how they insert apostolic team where scripture clearly does not warrant it.
This is standard SGM operating procedure – modeled and trained from the top down. The use and abuse of authority evidenced in this story (if present appearances hold up after further information) are not failures, stumblings, or slip-ups in a SGM paradigm, but are, rather, well-ordered and successful application of designed leadership theories and methodologies.
Do you see how much more hazardous and insidious this is? We are not observing a troubling pattern of a system being corrupted, undermined, or sidestepped. We are observing the more tragic pattern of a system being applied, fulfilled, and enforced just as it was designed to work.
And it is being modeled, trained, applied, fulfilled, and enforced in countless “small” and big stories across the day-to-day lives of people throughout SGM community of churches.
Pres,
Incredible, isn’t it?
….just shaking my head at the utter disregard for Scripture….
As sad as this story is, I am hopeful that it is the beginning of change.
People are becoming courageous as they are faced with stories such as Esther’s and Noel’s.
It seems as though our stories have hit some sort of critical mass and both the multitude of stories and the gravity of some is too much for even those in the deepest stages of sleep to ignore.
I really have no words and prayer is the best response anyway.
Presbyterian,
I remember thinking the same thing. My parents are in the care group of the couple that sent out that first email. The day after everything went down, they sent out a much shorter email saying basically that they were being removed from CG leadership, and that they had tried to appeal to the pastors in a biblical way, following every step in 1 Timothy 5:19-21.
They quoted the exact same verse!
Flabbergasted is right. A “layman” was reading the bible, and interpreting it more correctly than an official of the church. All the more reason why accountability should be to the congregation, and not to some distant member of “apostolic ministry”.
“Additionally, last year’s total church expenditure for benevolence of $1,051 gives further evidence that care and compassion for the needy barely exists. That amount is shameful in a church our size.”
WHAT?!?!?!??!?!?! I am too outraged to continue reading. I will be back shortly after I cool off.
THE TRUTH MUST COME OUT!
Stunned
and disgusted
Unfortunately, there will be no real change at SGM until they realize how unbiblical their polity is. There is no place in scripture for self-appointed apostles who rule with fists of iron. This is why in every single Protestant denomination the congregation has a voice. It is to bring a check to the sinfulness that still exists in the church’s leadership.
And by the way, if you read the post with the word ‘dictator’ substituted for ‘pastor’, it suddenly makes a lot of sense.
“total revenues were only $1,707,372″
I’m sick. I actually feel sick to my stomach. I am sick. nearly 2 million in revenue and barely over a thousand dollars of it went to benevolence fund. i am $%^&*^$ sick. $20,000 for an event and 1,051 for the hungry in your own church. you guys make me sick.
On the passage from 1 Timothy:
I kinda get where SGM is coming from (I disagree, but I see what they’re doing).
In v.21, Paul charges Timothy to “keep these instructions.” It seems Timothy was being sent to Ephesus on Paul’s behalf, so one could maybe/sorta claim he was coming with a sort of apostolic authority. And so SGM takes that and runs with it, claiming that only an apostle has authority to handle situations where elders are being accused and in need of rebuke.
Which totally misses Paul’s points in the passage (protect the flock by publicly rebuking those elders who sin against them, just don’t go overboard believing every accusation) and warps it into yet another “we clergy have authority and you laity are powerless” statement.
Yeah, these men are “beyond” reproach… like how the teacup ride is “beyond” the Magic Kingdom’s gates. :p
Oh man.
Praying today for the three couples, Esther, and everyone else in the line of fire at Chesapeake.
Dear Eponine,
I’m praying for you as well. When our foundation is screwed up, the Lord loves us enough to shake it to its core. It feels like you have no solid ground to stand on for awhile, but then, if we cooperate, He will rebuild our foundation so that it is rooted and grounded on His Love and His Word, making it unshakeable. That’s what, potentially, is going on here. SGM is being given a good shaking. Don’t be dismayed. God is at work. Praying that all parties will respond to Him.
The words really do speak for themselves. The email sent by one of the three couples is thorough and very measured and temperate in its wording. I am so impressed by the wisdom that was evident as they waded through the events and carefully clarified and sorted through the issues. Their insight really lifts the fog. It’s obvious they spent a great deal of time praying and being Bereans about the entire situation.
Other than that, well, I think Zaccheus is a great example of repentance. (Luke 19:1-10). He was seeking Christ and wanted to see Him so badly, he sought Him to the extent of not worrying if he would lose his dignity or prestige by climbing a tree. And then after his encounter with the Lord Jesus he was brief, to the point and took action.
Zaccheus’ example is sobering to me. May God grant grace for those involved (and for all His children) to seek His face above all else.
From the Financial Advisory team’s letter:
“Earlier this week the three couples met with the Pastors, Gene Emerson, and with us. At the meeting they presented a letter in which a number of grievances were set forth and which demanded the immediate resignation of Keith Breault, Trevor Haynes and Brett Campbell as pastors of Sovereign Grace Church. If their demands were not met, the couples promised to present these allegations and demands directly to the entire congregation after three days.”
Does it appear that the Fin Adv Team is saying that the 3 couples would present their concerns to the church if the pastors do not resign within 3 days?
From the sr pastor’s letter:
“Three couples, have brought a list of concerns to our pastoral team with a demand that three pastors, Trevor Haynes, Brett Campbell, and myself resign within three days or they would share their charges with the church.”
I’ll be polite and use the term disingenuous. ALL of these men had the December 16 letter. The exact wording is-“We regret having to confront you, but our consciences allow us no other course. We believe that our proposal is Spirit-led and can bring unity, peace, and a great measure of healing to the church body. We ask you to not delay your resignations. Should you refuse, we will take that as your signal for us to honor our scriptural responsibility to “take it to the church”. Should we hear nothing definitive from you within three days, we will begin that process.”
Do you see in the statement above, “resign within three days or they would share their charges with the church.” ?
I see a request for a definitive response, and I wonder why Keith and the fin adv team would feel the need to overstate their case by misrepresenting what the three couples actually said.
I see an almost Roman Catholic tone in the letters from the Finance team and the sr pastor. As you probably know, catholics believe that “sacred tradition” (what is taught by the catholic church) is equal in authority to Scripture. I see the same tone in the two letters.
The finance team writes:
“1. 1 Timothy 5: 19-21 provides instruction about the process to be used when bringing a charge against an elder/pastor. This involves an appeal to apostolic ministry for evaluation and correction as warranted, as opposed to an appeal directly to the congregation.
2. This scriptural process is the only one supported by Sovereign Grace Ministries. The alternative to this process would be to divorce ourselves from both scripture and the apostolic care and support of Sovereign Grace Ministries.”
The sr pastor writes:
“However, God has appointed structures of leadership for the care and fruitfulness of the church, that produce safety in the way the church is governed. Nowhere in Scripture do see members usurping the oversight of pastors. God has ordained a plurality of leadership so that we can all be built up in Christ. There is a very helpful resource on church government entitled, “Polity: Serving and Leading the Local Church.” You can order a copy or download it free of charge. Here is the link:”
Why must the Fin Adv Team appeal to an interpretation of 1 Timothy 5: 19-21 that is held by very few outside of SGM, and supported by no Biblical scholars? Why must the sr pastor appeal to a denominational polity statement?
SGCC’s own statement of faith contains the following:
“The Scriptures are the authoritative and normative rule and guide of all Christian life, practice, and doctrine. They are totally sufficient and must not be added to, superseded, or changed by later tradition, extra-biblical revelation, or worldly wisdom. Every doctrinal formulation, whether of creed, confession, or theology must be put to the test of the full counsel of God in Holy Scripture.”
Do these men actually believe their own statement of faith?
Well I am glad to see that this issue is finally surfacing.
The leaders of the Chesapeake Church certainly wrote a very “religiouseeze” letter trying to “admit” their poor actions. That type of tone certainly makes what they are saying quite suspect.
I really question SGM’s choice of what poor actions require a pastor to step down. Tomczak was made to step down due to supposed problems with one of his children misbehaving and possibly not being transparent about this problem. Two other pastors have been “asked” to step down due to vague reasons such as supposed “fear of man” an not being “gifted.” Now we have pastors that counsel women to stay in a bad marriages, despite abuse and substance issues, and SGM doesn’t seem to think they should step down. What happened at this SGC sure seems worse than what issues that forced these other pastors to step down.
I am not sure that it would be in the best interest for the leadership to immediately resign and leave within three days but certainly if what is reported here is true, a plan for replacing some if not all of the leaders in a reasonable period of time makes sense.
Can one even really say these pastors “apologized” if they had to do this under force? If one can’t even look back and see and grieve their error (without an apology being forced) here then it appears they lack the empathy for being a leader.
I would be curious to know how SGC spends the income they receive each year and how they feel justified in only spending around $1K of their $1.7 M income on help for members.
I certainly think it is deception to call a fund for paying off the local church’s debt on their building a “missions” fund. I wonder how they can justify using that terminology? It certainly what I would think of when I hear that word.
The sr pastor writes:
“Though we want to believe the best of their intentions, after extensively and exhaustively listening to their charges on two separate occasions (most recently in the presence of four objective witnesses, including Gene Emerson), we are concerned by the inaccuracy of their allegations.”
Are we to believe that Gene Emerson and the 3 financial advisory team members should be regarded as “objective witnesses”? I believe their actions since the December 16th meeting are a clear indication of their objectivity (or lack thereof).
It’s my opinion that Keith Breault’s words and actions since the December 16 meeting have only validated the concerns of the three couples.
I only see the phrase, “we will begin that process.”
Overstating is a defense, as is an appeal to tradition.
When you place yourself under the authority of God’s Word, you have to stop defending yourself. You’re opening yourself up to the two-edge sword that discerns the thoughts and intentions of the heart. God is the one who then provides the defense or correction or comfort or conviction.
Something else that is very suspect… why weren’t the “three couples” invited to the “Family Meeting” on December 20th with Gene Emerson and the pastors? THEIR ACCUSERS WEREN’T INVITED TO THIS MEETING! Am I the only one that finds this… ummmmm… suspicious?
If you don’t have anything to hide, if you are going to “tell the truth, nothing but the truth, so help you God”, if your motives are above reproach, if your truly want unity, why not face your accusers and answer their allegations in front of the other members of the church?
Something is looking and smelling pretty fishy in Chesapeake… and it ain’t fish!
And also, lets remember that Keiths letter “opens the door to questions at anytime” and yet at this meeting, questions were hushed, not answered. The pastors and Gene simply said, this was an information meeting and they wouldnt be taking questions….that they would take questions at a more appropriate time…how about that for smelling fishy….I will write again what I wrote about 100 posts ago
I am sure the “appropriate” time is one on one where no one else can hear the question or the answer…no accountability and easier to manipulate and seem “sincere” when you DIVIDE AND CONQUER…makes sense doesnt it?! Sad, sad, sad not to mention shameful….
The writer of the first letter expresses outrage that Gene and the pastors did this to ‘our church.’
That is the precise problem: it is not your church. It is their church. You exist to finance it. They run it.
JG,
I found that kind of “interesting” as well. And then Keith stated THREE TIMES in his letter to the church:
“As a pastoral team, we welcome correction and the goodness of pursuing reconciliation when our shortcomings offend.”
“Please anticipate your pastors asking for ways in which we can better serve you. Also, please do not hesitate to contact us with any questions, comments or concerns.”
“We invite you to bring any questions, concerns or observation, to the pastoral team or the members of the financial review committee…”
Yeah… that’s gonna happen! Look how well it worked out for the “three couples”!!! I’m sure it would work just as well for anyone else who “contacted (these leaders) with questions, concerns, comments, or observations”!
If you believe that, I’ve got some good land down here in Florida to sell you…
Again, this is just so similar to what my son and DIL went through…on a much grander scale, to be sure, but still, so similar. A family meeting was held about them as well….one that they were not present at or invited to.
Not to downplay anything that any of these people have gone through, but as so many have said, this is such a PATTERN!! These are not isolated incidents, this is the ‘norm’ for SGM. It is wrong and it is time to bring their abuses to an end!!
As leaders in SGC Ches., I can honestly state that I am worried! This is the worst mess SGC Ches. has ever been in, and it is solely the fault of the pastoral staff, as well as Gene Emerson! We will be praying very fervently and fasting as well, as we will most likely be resigning both our post at the church, as well as our membership.
Now that, in the words of Steve Shank, “the proverbial doo doo has hit the fan,” I certainly hope many other voices will be raised; not just the three couples and Esther. These families, and not the pastors, must be held up as humble servants by the memebrs of SGC Ches., and the SG Movement. Why are we holding up our pastors and surpressing the couples who brought darkness to light? I say this to many at SGC Ches, leaders like ourselves: Jim Benson, Barry Herman, and others, that if we stay, we must continue to pursue truth and righteousness, and not at the expense of our members, many of which have been very hurt through this process, and seek to encourage those who exposed this, who pressed forth in what would become a very damaging process to them all: Esther, as well as the three couples, all who I know, and who I know are in pain through this process, by what has happened to them.
I, unlike others, am not sick by what has happened, but severely grieved, embarrasssed, as well as ashamed at out pastors, Gene Emerson, as well as the three men on this financial team, who, as it appears, brought just as damaging charges against members of the church as the pastors did.
I believe the Holy Spirit, though working through members of the church, is very grieved, and this will continue to become manifest at SGC Ches. We need to pray for a restoration, but believe it will only come once MAJOR changes come, and I don’t think these men are the ones to do it.
Just maybe, they have disqualified themselves. Maybe these couples were correct.
Now that I have read the letter in its entirety, maybe Gene…you’re the one who is wrong! You’re the one who is devisive! You’re the one we need to be allied with, against!
I am Grieved!!!!!
PS: Jim thank you for your take on the men who sit on the finance team. They acted very shameful and wrong. This saddens me because I always viewed these men as pillars in our church, as well as friends. WHAT THEY REALLY ARE, AS I NOW PERCEIVE THEM: They are a true embarressment to the church. I hope they are able to bring themselves to the palce where they publically come clean as well. Maybe this will come at our family meeting next Sunday night!
PATTY!!!
Welcome back! We’ve missed you! How’s the family doing?
You are so right in your above comment!… this is SGM’s standard operating procedure… it’s been done again and again and again and again, and over and over and over again.
It’s time to expose this “family of churches”… to reveal the truth of what goes on behind the curtain of leadership. It’s time for this to stop! It’s time for God’s people to rise up and stop living in fear of these “leaders”.
It has to stop… please, God, have mercy!
Long Sufferer-
Here’s what will happen on the 25th- CJ will pick up where Gene left off.
You’ll hear statements like: ” I have nothing but respect for Keith”.
So it will take a few brave souls who will stand up with solidarity, with confidence, with boldness, without apology, without bowing to CJ’s pleas to sit down, and state, “We were lied to. Our friends have been maligned. We no longer hold trust in our pastors and financial team. We demand action and answers and we will not leave here until these things are dealt with clearly, without rhetoric, excuse and manipulations.”
Remnant-exactly.
Maybe I haven’t read well enough, but why did the finance team have a big old say in this? Did the worship team, children’s ministry team, or parking lot crew also get to weigh in on this?
I’m all for congregational input–and I think this element is one of the key ingredients missing at SGM, but I am surprised that an email would be sent out by a ministry team.
I have to tell any of you who might still question the hearts of these three precious couples (just in case there are any like that here listening), I prayed with one of the couples about all this before the letter was sent and the Dec. 20 meeting called. They were grieved to the heart and wanted only God’s perfect will to be done. They were quiet, careful not to mention any names, and soberly, painfully aware of the seriousness of what they were being called to do. They coveted our continued prayer over the entire situation. I am no longer a part of an SGM church and have not been for some time. I had no idea what was going on. I would trust these people with my life. They are in all likelihood the most committed believers I have ever known.
As they told me a few of the details and eagerly discussed how they believed reconciliation might occur as a result of our prayers and of their future humble interactions with the pastors, I thought to myself, “This will not happen. They will be called slanderers and enemies of the church.” I hate that my thought came true!
I know this couple’s heart was FOR the church they so dearly love. I know them well. They serve tirelessly in many different ways. I think that’s one reason this particular situation has opened the eyes of a sleeping congregation wide and drawn the attention of CJ. Because these couples (I only know who two of them are — wish someone would tell me who the third is, but that’s just idle curiosity) are such stalwarts of the faith, so involved in serving the body, so strong in the Lord and balanced and giving and loving and kind (I could go on and on!) that NO ONE believes they could possibly EVER slander anyone or misrepresent the truth.
I told someone earlier this week that the way people are standing behind this couple (Thank you, SZ!) is a testimony to their flawless walk with God. I only WISH I could be as these folks are. I stumble and fumble my way through my faith journey and watch in awe as they reach heavenward and bring the love of Jesus to the hurting, the helpless, those in need and those they walk with every day through life. They are dear, DEAR people. Such shining examples to us all. If I say more, they’ll know for sure who I am. They probably already do. But I can’t say enough good things about them. And something that has not been mentioned here is that their family business could be destroyed by the words spoken against them if believed by the church and if the church shuns them. This could cost them their livelihood and they still took the risk because they felt called to by God and His word.
I know some will say that printing it all here is gossip. I have prayed fervently about that and truly believe that God, the ruler of the universe, and Jesus Christ, His son, the king of all kings, have been waiting for this moment. The veil that has covered over these sins for so long has now been lifted. Hallelujah! Only holiness can come when sin is uncovered and repented of — and holiness is a GOOD thing. It’s just that those in high places within this organization — now that their sins have been uncovered — are going to have to make a choice. Do they admit wrongdoing, potentially opening themselves to actual lawsuits and certainly being forced to step down from leadership (and all that means financially — much like those banking CEOs only without the golden parachute)? Or do they continue to walk in sin by refusing to humbly repent (or repeat the rhetoric of repentance rather than let the Holy Spirit break their hearts over their sin) and admit that they have caused harm? If they do that, they save face and keep their jobs, but remain entrenched in sin. To walk in holiness is a high calling, a narrow way, a rocky road. Will they choose the narrow way?
I think what I’m really asking is will they choose to walk the walk they’ve demanded their members walk? Will they focus on their OWN indwelling sin and confess their own sins in accountability to the body they’ve so grievously injured?
I have a friend whose heart races every time a SGM church member who works in her office walks in to ask her a question. She was shunned after leaving. She knows they’ve been told lies about her but doesn’t really know what the lies were because she was shunned. I received an email from one of you here at refuge who knew me before and it began with his name, followed by “please don’t believe everything they said about me.” (To which I responded “Well, don’t believe ANYTHING they said about ME!”) It’s a shame that our conversation had to start out that way, isn’t it?
I guess I’m saying all these things to let you know that this organization’s doctrine has tentacles. I’ve been away for more than ten years and so has the gentleman who contacted me, yet our greeting still started that way. There will be a need for healing and counsel and comfort if people leave the church. The other option is a total reversal of the way SGM does business. I don’t know if that’s possible, but what if it is? What if they adopt a different model, something like Terry Virgo’s New Frontiers? If that happens, they’ll need to offer counseling to those so entrenched in the focus on indwelling sin and pride. But I’m optimistic. It IS possible. God is in the business of miraculous transformations and He often brings them about only once our entire situation is completely hopeless and broken. Then all the glory goes to Him.
I look forward to a positive outcome and will be praying fervently to that end. If it doesn’t happen, feel free to get my email from Jim if any of you in Chesapeake need a listening ear.
Ordinary folks – appalled by any manipulative, secretive, or heavy-handed use of authority – will assume that stories like this represent a breakdown in the system with these pastors and apostles doing things that even they recognize are unhealthy or undesirable.
The far more disturbing reality is that the sequence of events represented by the letters above is a well-honed leadership approach in the SGM culture. Many of us have experienced almost identical sequences of letters, meetings, misleading announcements, selective memory, manipulated information, etc. all cloaked in a “language of humility” that gives little evidence of being sincere.
In other words, this is standard SGM operating procedure – modeled and trained from the top down. The use and abuse of authority evidenced in this story (if present appearances hold up after further information) are not failures, stumblings, or slip-ups in a SGM way of doing things; but, rather, are a well-ordered and practiced application of an intentionally designed leadership methodology.
Do you see how much more hazardous and insidious this is? We are not observing a troubling pattern of a system being corrupted, undermined, or sidestepped. We are observing the more tragic pattern of a system being applied, fulfilled, and enforced just as it was designed to work.
Sadly it is being applied with greater and greater efficiency as it it being refined through frequent repetition in the lives of SGM people throughout this group of churches. Previously these operations were hidden in secrecy, but now they are under the observation of more and more concerned believers.
Like all of you.
Yes, Remnant! But will the couples be present at the CJ meeting? I’m confused about how this meeting will bring about understanding if they aren’t even there.
And I want to reiterate that I believe, as I said over at the SGMSurvivors blog many months ago, this battle is not against flesh and blood. You all are fighting FOR CJ and Steve and Dave and whoever else AGAINST the enemy of their souls. They are broken and blinded and you all in Chesapeake will be taking up your weapons alongside them (stay with me here) against a common foe. Let’s not forget that. They are not your enemy. Satan is. Your job is to beat down the enemy on their behalf through prayer so that the scales will be removed from their eyes. I sometimes think we villify these “apostles” because we’re in such pain when really they are only the instruments the enemy has used to enslave us (and themselves). Imagine the distress they’ll be in once they see what they’ve done and the need for restoration once they repent. It’s sure a tricky thing. But God is big! (Read Ephesians 6)
Taking Note-
You’re exactly right.
So, WILL the three couples be in attendance? I do hope they are planning on being there (even if not invited) and I do hope they bring an attorney with them. And a recorder.
Steve 240, you said: ”As a pastoral team, we welcome correction and the goodness of pursuing reconciliation when our shortcomings offend.”
We know from history that there is no problem on the part of the “apostles” to fire pastors with no clear plan for the future.
Look what happened at the Aurora, CO church. Pastor fired, nobody firmly set to replace him, church is led for 4 months by 3 men who are deemed “care group leaders.”
THAT is scary. But, it is wholly possible and conceivable that this could happen again.
I’m sorry, the edit timer ran out…I quoted the wrong section of Steve’s comment…..
Here’s what I meant to say:
“I am not sure that it would be in the best interest for the leadership to immediately resign and leave within three days but certainly if what is reported here is true, a plan for replacing some if not all of the leaders in a reasonable period of time makes sense. ”
Then my comment above, which I’ll copy again here: We know from history that there is no problem on the part of the “apostles” to fire pastors with no clear plan for the future.
Look what happened at the Aurora, CO church. Pastor fired, nobody firmly set to replace him, church is led for 4 months by 3 men who are deemed “care group leaders.”
THAT is scary. But, it is wholly possible and conceivable that this could happen again.
Steve,
Priorities.
If they choose to do something about the pastors, they can’t do it now. They first must destroy those who dared to stand up to their “authority”.
What’s it all about?
I didn’t say what you just quoted me as saying. If you do a search you will find that that you quoted is what the SGC pastors said in their email to members. I think you meant to quote something else I said, maybe my questioning that it might not be best if these 3 pastors left immediately.
You do make good points that SGM “Apostles” do fire pastors without regard for whether they might be better off with the existing pastor there for a period of time or not. I can understand under certain conditions immediately removing a pastor might make sense.
humblylearning
Thanks for sharing what you did about the 3 couples.
My thought on these 3 couples is that they went to the pastors under the illusion that the pastors were as open to correction and reproof as they indicate they are. As can be seen by this story, they were in for a rude awakening.
Unfortunately, this is an experience that a number of people have shared about SGM.
So you all think it will play out via status quo? The three couples will be disfellowshipped (for the oh so grave sin of speaking against the “Apostles”)? And this “family” meeting will ty to put a spin on it that CJ really cares about them and that he’s got all confidence in the integrity of current leadership.
Is that what’s expected?
What would it look like if the whole congregation stood united against SGM’s twisted logic, lies, cover-ups in favor of the three couples and truth, honesty, full disclosure and true dialogue. What if they all stood up (literally) and made sure their voices were heard. And if CJ or other leadership tries to silence them, what if they all walk out as one and follow-up by being willing to withhold financial support and their presence at all church-related events?
What if they insisted that things change in the SGM modus operandi and start the change within their strong, truly loving congregation?
What if they just say ”No!” to SGM’s unholy, Bible-twisting, unloving, authoritarian patriarchy?
What if they are all willing to be disfellowshipped? All of them? (Or a vast majority.)
If any of the churches is radical enough to do that, my thought is it’d be this one, Remnant.
They could always leave the denomination as an Episcopal church in their city is doing (Messiah). But then you have the sticky job of trying to keep your building — because you paid for it but it belongs to SGM…
I hope someone stops the meeting in its tracks and says” Excuse me, CJ, but we’re not here to listen to you; you are here to listen to us.”
Freedom said <blockquote>They could always leave the denomination as an Episcopal church in their city is doing (Messiah). But then you have the sticky job of trying to keep your building — because you paid for it but it belongs to SGM…</blockquote>
I am sure that could be one problem. Of course, if funds are as tight a they seem to be for this church (deficit spending last year) and if their is still a signficant debt on their building (sounds like it since their is a “missions” fund to pay it off early) then SGM may be more likely to let the break off group have the building if they assume the mortgage.
On a similar note, I am sure all these problems occurring at this church will do wonders for their budget (they were in a deficit in 2007). Of course having at least on pastor off the payroll would do wonders for their budget. Maybe if there is an exodus of members, the church will be forced to have to take one or more pastors off the payroll.
Steve240:
In South Denver, the only pastor was fired for what? Oh yeah, “lack of gifting.”
No pastor to replace him. Immediate removal, no prior warning, the next Sunday the family was gone to another SGM church. No new pastor for 4 months. For those 4 months, the church was being “led” by 3 care group leaders. Oh, and Shank…long distance?
There was no reason for it to be immediate. If he lacked gifting for 10 years, what’s another couple months?
I wouldn’t put anything past the powers that be.
“We know from history that there is no problem on the part of the “apostles” to fire pastors with no clear plan for the future. Look what happened at the Aurora, CO church. Pastor fired, nobody firmly set to replace him, church is led for 4 months by 3 men who are deemed “care group leaders.”
THAT is scary. But, it is wholly possible and conceivable that this could happen again.”
What’s it all about,
That thought occurred to me also, it would make those who would stand up for what’s right, to become confused. The apostles would deal later with the couples, and even later with those who supported them.
Pray, pray, pray!
Thank you Carole! We are all doing well. (except we miss Ryan and Fallon soooo much!) We are at a place in our lives where we would truly like for all things SGM to be behind us. Problem is we aren’t just talking about an organization, but people…people that we loved and cared about and whom we thought loved and cared about us. As a relational kind of person, it’s hard for me to just ‘stop’ relationships.
Even so, we had friends there, or so I thought….and the way they turned on us, the way the pastors hurt innocent children by flat out wrong counseling, the way the pastors talked about us behind our backs (both negatively as well as breaking confidences shared) and most importantly, the way they assassinated the characters of my very godly son and DIL, hurt me beyond what I thought possible. I have never, never, never been treated this way by other so-called Christians, and I’ve been a Christian and active in churches for decades. I know we cannot know the heart of another, but it is hard for me to not wonder about their true beliefs if they are ok with lying, slandering, and causing unquestionably harmful ramifications by giving unqualified counsel. How is that the fruit of a Christian? None of us are perfect, I totally get that and believe that…yes, all sinners, again I totally get that and believe that. But this is a pattern of sin, eating its way through leadership throughout SGM…how is that evidence of God’s salvation and grace??
My story is that, except for Ryan and Fallon, the rest of us pretty much remained on the fringe; never wholly acceptable to the core of the church. We built part of our family through adoption (pastor told us that this was the cause of any problems we may have), we strongly believe in and support missions, we advocate and practice attachment parenting (the polar opposite of parenting philosophies such as Ezzo, which is strongly taught in most SGM churches), and I worked (uh oh) in the counseling field (double uh oh). All that combined to make us pretty unacceptable in the clique-ish core. Oh, that and because I had no problem telling the pastor and the assoc pastor exactly what I thought as far as them being totally unqualified to counsel, and that I found the assoc pastor to be incredibly arrogant and disrespectful.
Anyway, as I said, I am at a point now, praise God, where SGM doesn’t enter my thoughts for weeks at a time….but still vulnerable enough that little incidences (like being snubbed in front of a group of my friends) make the wound ooze just a little bit more. :-/
oops, sorry, I thought I was still on the other topic’s page (your story)! sigh….jumping in when one is sleep-deprived is not w/o it’s risks! LOL
Hi Freedom Fighter,
SGM church buildings are actually owned by the local churches, not Sovereign Grace Ministries.
This is one of the few concrete points that they try to use to say that they are not a “denomination” and that there is a form of “autonomy” to each local church.
Technically, each SGM church is individually incorporated, and SGM leadership has “relational oversight” but not official authority on any matters of finance, business, or building. Technically…
Technically (again) each individual church could step away at any time and carry on without SGM membership.
Again, these are the pieces of their argument that they are not a denomination (though each of these things could be said of many existing denominations as well).
Taking Note,
They are owned by the directors on the corporate docs. Usually the pastors.
All of the corp docs I’ve seen in Florida churches state that assets will be given to another 503c if the corp is disbanded.
Anyone can search by name and view corp docs in Florida at sunbiz.org
Main Entry:de·nom·i·na·tion Pronunciation:di-ˌnä-mə-ˈnā-shənFunction:nounDate:15th century
1: an act of denominating2: a value or size of a series of values or sizes (as of money)3: name , designation ; especially : a general name for a category
4: a religious organization whose congregations are united in their adherence to its beliefs and practice
That’s a good point, Jim.
The local dynamic of incorporation directors could make it very fuzzy if there was division between the local leaders and the congregation.
I was only making note that they are not owned “denominationally” by the Sovereign Grace Ministries as an extra-local organization.
Didn’t mean to go off on a tangent, but I know my friends there would love to stay together and just be free of the politics and nonsense and false doctrine. And I’d love to see them get to. If any of you are reading this, go over and talk to Marty O’Rourke at Messiah if you want to consider this possibility. I’m really close friends with his wife Wendy. Just tell them you’re friends of mine.
Or you know what? Go start your own church! Start over and align yourselves with New Frontiers…
It’s late and I’m getting slaphappy, I think. I guess this is a bit premature!
“In other words, this is standard SGM operating procedure – modeled and trained from the top down. ”
you are (sadly and tragically) correct. i can only guess that the “worst” that can happen is that the pastors will be given up as sacrificial lambs to protect the movement. order will be restored and another group of pc graduates will oversee the church there. though i hope remnants suggestion happens.
everyone stand as one voice.
refuse to give in to manipulation and partial truths.
but don’t walk out.
sit there.
refuse to leave until every single person’s voice is heard (including the 3 couples).
until every question has been answered satisfactorially.
until every hurt has been adressed.
publically.
As a group repeat the chant, “Let the couples speak. Let the couples speak. Let the couples speak.”
Don’t allow yourselves to be silenced until CJ or one of the pastor’s pick up his cell phone and calls to invite each of the couples over immediately.
make sure the call is on speaker phone for the whole church to hear.
wait for them to get there.
allow them each to have their say.
don’t go anywhere
keep talking until all of their questions have been answered.
talk
talk
talk
come on leadership, you can do it.
this is church
anything else as important to you?
sleep?
eating?
stick it out.
if cj and the pastors leave, let them.
but don’t go anywhere until every single person’s questions have been heard and answered.
every single.
and answered satisfactorially.
this is worth it.
jim said, “All of the corp docs I’ve seen in Florida churches state that assets will be given to another 503c if the corp is disbanded.”
Hmmm. like, could the pastors give the church building to … say… SGM if the congregants decided to stop going to and giving their money to a church that takes in nearly 2 million but only gives over a thousand to benevolence?
In response to the letter of concerns and item #5, this has ALWAYS been an area of concern with us as we had been attending the flagship (CLC) for just over ten years. In our first year as visitors, I remember oh so clearly the Sunday morning where it was celebrated with great joy the paying off of the mortgage on the original building. Thousands of mock mortgage notes floated from the ceiling along with balloons (if my memory serves me) while the band played on. This was in fact a tremendous accomplishment as they had been in the building only a short time, but there was a strong conviction that they should be free of debt in order to use monies more wisely. I wholeheartedly agreed. Then, later when it was apparent that growth into the second phase (current worship facility) was needed, here comes another big mortgage, but that was okay. After all, we had to “reach out” to the community with the Gospel. After the magnificent structure was built and occupied, the conviction to be debt free of the new mortgage returns with full force, only this time under the monniker of the “Mission Fund” (sound familiar?) Remember folks, this is the flagship. That was the day our “mission giving” stopped. And what a sad day it was.
This unfolding drama is all very fascinating. There seems to be a lot of information flowing out there. My understanding is that this is a good size church. Did the couples get a consensus from the rest of the church before they asked the pastors to step down? Sounds a bit like a mutiny and perhaps the rest of the ship wasn’t clued in.
One would gather from the words of the letter writer above, that they are absolutely faultless in all of this, lots of clauses that communicate that the writer did no wrong. Seems that if they are so willing to give the names of the offenders, that (if they themselves are above reproach and have no fault in all of this) they would also give their names. Perhaps if others in the church knew their names, they could join their mutiny.
McD,
Did you read the post? I took out many names, including those of the authors. I would think that everyone at Chesapeake knows who these couples are by now, thanks to Gene and Keith. It seems that the three couples were going to attempt to get a consensus, but Gene, the pastors, and the finance team did a preemptive strike.
You need to understand, and should after reading this, that the only consensus SGM is interested in is obedience to leadership.
Do you attend a SGM church?
Rather than this being a mutiny, it was a plea to the pastors to repent of the wrongdoing they were guilty of in their dealings with Esther. They stumbled upon Esther while she was speaking with the pastors on the phone about being forced to allow her husband back. That’s what I know of the situation. Once they walked into the room and heard what was being said, they felt obligated to stand beside her and walk her through her struggle, thus bearing one another’s burdens and fulfilling the law of Christ as it says to do in Galatians. So mutiny would be the wrong word for it. Prior to finding out about Esther, they knew nothing about any type of wrongdoing anywhere within SGM and had no particular vendetta or bone to pick. None whatsoever. Once someone told them about this website, they realized they were obligated (provoked by their conscience) to do more, to bring the pastors to accountability as they’d been taught to do within SGM.
I’m sorry, but I’m envisioning CJ (or Emerson or someone from that church,) in a white wig all corseted in period costume whilst beragged Esther and her poor children (al’la’ Oliver Twist or Les Mis) come into court begging for a crust of bread or more gruel and CJ Antionette lets out a, “Let them eat cake.”
I know the SG church in my area is palatial, I wouldn’t be surprised if the pastors have gold plated fixtures in their exclusive executive bathrooms, all it needs is the proverbial air conditioned doghouse.
Honestly, folks, if you demand a tithe out of the hides of your members, you should be tithing your income to the needy. Or are you like Congress exempting yourselves from the laws you impose upon other people.
Obligated was the wrong word to use. Too clinical. Their hearts were broken for Esther and out of love for her, they chose to stand beside her and support her.
DB,
As you probably know, SGC’s send a substantial amount of money to SGM, inc.
Add that to the generous honorariums given to visiting royalty, there’s really nothing left over to help the needy.
To all of us, perhaps a quick visit to this link,
http://www.reviveourhearts.com.....People.pdf
would help us all get a clearer picture of how the Lord would desire us to carry ourselves through this life He has so graciously given us.
McD,
Excellent document!
Though much experience, I feel the the column on the left could insert the heading, ‘Sovereign Grace leadership”
McD, thank you for coming on here as an example of how someone can slap you in the face and insult you, but as long as they are wearing a velvet glove when doing it, you aren’t supposed to feel the pain. Thing is, I did feel the pain for the 3 couples and the rest of those you just spit upon.
Not cool at all.
I think the Revive Your Hearts people mean for both columns to apply to us all. I certainly know that I lean heavily to the Proud column vs. the Broken. My prayer every day is that God will reveal in me a desire to glorify Him in all that I do and say.
I must be daft. I thought McD was agreeing that the leadership has much to learn about pride. I didn’t take offense in the least. It IS an excellent document. I have seen God use the broken over and over again in miraculous ways, accomplishing things in their weakness that the proud could never accomplish. That’s why I believe things can change within SGM. But let’s not be inflammatory here. It isn’t worth it.
I’m not so sure any more that the choice is Proud (bad) and Humble (good)–especially with such a long list with which to beat oneself up. Sometimes the godly response is in the proud column.
QUOTE: jim said, “All of the corp docs I’ve seen in Florida churches state that assets will be given to another 503c if the corp is disbanded.”
Then Stunned said, “Hmmm. like, could the pastors give the church building to … say… SGM if the congregants decided to stop going to and giving their money to a church that takes in nearly 2 million but only gives over a thousand to benevolence?” UNQUOTE
…. that’s why any church with ANY money in the bank or ANY property should be having second (third, fourth, etc) thoughts about becoming part of the “FAMILY OF CHURCHES”. It seems that in this “family”, outsiders (those not from the original church) come in if those in the original church don’t want to be in the family anymore, and take everything that you’ve worked and saved for. :/
McD,
If that’s truly the case, then are you really in the right position to point so many fingers against those who were trying to defend the defenseless (“Sounds a bit like a mutiny…” “One would gather from the words of the letter writer above, that they are absolutely faultless in all of this…” “Seems that if they are so willing to give the names of the offenders…they would also give their names”)?
In other words, I doubt the sincerity of your self-deprecation. If you recognize a pattern of sin in your heart, confession is not enough—you need to repent.
Ironically, that’s the very thing we keep saying to SGM’s leaders.
hi humblylearning,
I don’t think you’re daft. I was referencing mcd’s earlier post.
slap.
ouch.
No, I see it now, Stunned. But when I read the document, I just thought, “Yes, this is true.” Never realizing McD meant it as a warning to those of us who are commenting here. I must have glossed over his previous message. (I assume it’s a “he.” Don’t really know.)
It led me to pause and think about why I AM commenting here. I don’t believe it’s gossiping to do so. I think I’m here because I was so shocked at the ones being accused. Having known them for years and emulated their walk with God as I fumbled through my own, I’m really and truly shocked that they’re being treated as the guilty parties in all this. These are simply not the sort of folks who would ever be self-serving or power-hungry or any of the things on the pride list. It’s tough for someone who doesn’t know them to believe anyone could really be as godly as I believe them to be. So I can see why McD might wonder. Another reason I have a soft spot for these folks is they’re practically the only ones who remained friends with us when we left. They never even blinked or listened to a word of gossip or warning that we were now the enemy or any of that bunk. They remained faithful to the Word of God and the promptings of the Holy Spirit.
I’m here because I want God to be glorified and I want Him to be able to present a spotless bride at the glorious coming of Jesus Christ. What I don’t understand is why these pastors and church leaders are so unwilling for their sin to be exposed and yet so willing to expose — immediately and very publicly — the perceived sins of these three couples? They huff and puff and refuse to answer questions that might incriminate themselves but then turn around and sling arrows every which way at others.
This doesn’t sound like what Steve Shank intended at all when he started the church plant in Chesapeake. I sat “under” his teaching and it was NOT THIS. Now SGM seems to basically be saying “Only those destined for holiness will remain in SGM (we’ll decide who that is). All others will be shaken off like dust on the leaders’ feet.” It seems so impossible that a Christian denomination would have that intent. I think that’s why people like McD disbelieve the innocent. It doesn’t seem possible that these things could be happening. Yet they are.
Something to consider…
If we attack people like McD, they won’t feel safe to come here and comment. I, for one, would LOVE for the pastors and elders (do they have elders?) to comment here at Refuge. I know many of us are still quite raw because of all the past hurts, but we have to find a way to walk in love while we’re overturning the moneychangers’ tables. I know we’re all working through a lot of garbage, so it won’t be easy to give soft answers. Some who have been away longer will have an easier time of it, I’m sure. I hope to take my cue from Esther…
from McD: “Did the couples get a consensus from the rest of the church before they asked the pastors to step down? Sounds a bit like a mutiny and perhaps the rest of the ship wasn’t clued in.?”
No they did NOT get a consensus as they were not bringing others at that point (by gossip NOR conversation) into the conflict and were being careful to prayerfully walk through the situation they found themselves in. SGM does not have an avenue for getting any kind of a consensus since they are not even ALLOWED to ask questions in their public meetings.
I think the couples were convicted by God and felt that ignoring or covering the sin would include them as guilty parties. Bringing truth by exposing it to the light is not wrong. It takes a person of conviction to do it in a Godly way which they did. It takes standing up and speaking out to bring truth that the Holy Spirit reveals to us individually. Maybe they spoke because the H S was leading them to.
I agree with the comment directly above. Yes humblylearning we must give soft answers and see that it is only the Holy Spirit that enlightens us and gives us understanding. Many of their leaders are blinded and do not see it. They are not trying to pull anything over on all these people intentionally. No they do not have elders and that is part of the problem. A big part. Their structure is Pastors/elders and Care group leaders. If the church has 4 pastors then it is considered to have 4 elders. I believe I am correct here but I know others will post if I’m not.
humblylearning wrote: This doesn’t sound like what Steve Shank intended at all when he started the church plant in Chesapeake. I sat “under” his teaching and it was NOT THIS.
Me: Unfortunately, what shank teaches and what he models are two different things. If you read the blogs, you will see a story of a wake of distruction left by shank. I listened to his “teachings” for years – it’s all about authority, obey, submit, we know better than you do. As far as his attitude, it’s pride, nothing humble (even though he says he is humble), it’s pride. He refuses to listen to anything when he is wrong. His knowledge of history (including christian history) is severly skewed. He is a revisionist historian, re-writing history to use as he sees fit. The sad thing is he believes he is right, always right.
Lion Heart…well said. Graciousness and not arrogance came from your thoughts. I appreciate that. If someone posts something we disagree on, we must remain gracius. You can still speak the truth in your heart but remain humble. If we speak from our pain, it can be dangerous at times and also at times necessary to say what needs to be said. I just dotn want anyone feeling “attacked” for hteir opinions. So, McD hope you dont feel that way and are still reading. Everyone needs to feel the FREEDOM to post their opinion and not come under the gun. Havent we had enough of that? Let’s be bearers of mercy and truth, not bitterness and hurt (although some of us feel those)…and just pray for eachother, the ministry the people…we are called to pray. Thank you Lion Heart for your gracious and clarifying words.
Lion Heart…well said. Graciousness and not arrogance came from your thoughts. I appreciate that. If someone posts something we disagree on, we must remain gracious. You can still speak the truth and in your heart remain humble. If we speak from our pain, it can be dangerous at times and also at times necessary to say what needs to be said. I just dont want anyone feeling “attacked” for their opinions. So, McD hope you dont feel that way and are still reading. Everyone needs to feel the FREEDOM to post their opinion and not come under the gun. Havent we had enough of that? Let’s be bearers of mercy and truth, not bitterness and hurt (although some of us feel those)…and just pray for eachother, the ministry the people…we are called to pray. Thank you Lion Heart for your gracious and clarifying words.
humblylearning, I’m glad that these 6 people stood by you and never turned their backs on you when you left SGM. It’s good to see you doing the same.
Take care,
Stunned
Test
Don’t be fooled people, the letter written by the original “6″ said that if they, ‘the pastors’ did not resign within 3 days that they would ‘ take it to the church’. Now they’ve back peddled and said, well we didn’t mean we would email it to practically the entire congregation. That letter was emailed out the 20th to a few people, that is a fact. We all know what happens with email, reply to all, forward, and the nature of people. I tell you my phone and all the other phones in the two care groups were lighting up. “oh please send me a copy of the letter” they all asked. It could have been sent out to 2 people, and the same thing would have happened. So they can’t pretend that they didn’t send it out and it was the pastors. NO! The letter by the original 6 was sent by one of them! After that it was like a virus, and the rest is history. I feel like we’re re-hashing the same thing over and over again. Every day day I wake up and it’s Ground Hog day. Yes there will be a pastor or two resign eventually. Maybe there will be a church plant in Uruguay and one will be sent there. Maybe an SGC in Iraq. Lets focus on, and I hate to sound like Microsoft, but ‘where are we going to go today’. Even after all of this the church will move forward and prosper. Not the building or the ministry, but the church, the wonderful people I’ve had the privilege of serving with. Please continue to pray with us and lets keep our focus on Christ, not man.
Stein-
I have the December 16 letter.
The exact wording is-“We regret having to confront you, but our consciences allow us no other course. We believe that our proposal is Spirit-led and can bring unity, peace, and a great measure of healing to the church body. We ask you to not delay your resignations. Should you refuse, we will take that as your signal for us to honor our scriptural responsibility to “take it to the church”. Should we hear nothing definitive from you within three days, we will begin that process.”
Stein,
It is true that the letter was emailed to a few friends, as was the January 6 letter.
It was emailed in response to questions brought to them because of the full frontal, preemptive strike by Emerson, Keith, and the finance team.
It’s clear that you have chosen a side, which is fine. This situation will unfortunately force everyone to choose a side.
I would recommend that you take your own advice-don’t be fooled.
Sent a test as this is a new poster! I believe the three couples will go to the meeTing on the 25th. I pray they do. Acme: I belive the financial team went because I know one is a CGL/Attorney. I think the Pastors just wanted someone there with them in front of Gene. These three men would probably stick with the Pastors to the end. AMEN Steven on your post about standing up and telling CJ he is here to listen to US!!! Humble: I know all three couples. Yes, one couple would have a lot to lose. I wonder what some of their employees will do. I know some of the employees are leaving SGC but I know some will stay. Jim: Do I understand you correctly??? The Church is owned by the pastors? Clarify for me please. A 501c3 is a non-profit and is tax exempt. Is that what you meant? So, say, a Church is paid off and it folds, they can sell it, who gets the money??? I was always assuming SGM owned all the buildings???? But that’s me not really knowing the structure. IT SICKENS ME TO THINK THAT I GAVE SO MUCH MONEY TO THE MISSION FUND TO pay off that building when I could have been helping others like Esther and other families to pay their power bills! I think I will puke now!
I’m definitely not part of the problem or the solution and am hesitant to enter the “fray,” but I know that there was a very real concern that the pastors would again remain silent. Refusing to respond to the second letter would have caused further harm to Esther. They felt strongly that a time limit needed to be put on the Dec. 16th letter.
Jim – good post!!!! They did lay out the exact plan!
Almost an Ex sgc-er: goodluck! Please get a support system when you leave – you have a great support system online (this one and survivors). There are many, many folks who will pray for you. You also have lots of people who will run to your defense online when sgm faithful attack your posts online. If you have anyone else that can be there for you, please use them. You need it – it is tough when you leave. Cindy K highly recommends using an exit counselor.
Someone down in Chesapeak/Va Beach needs to start a recovery group for the folks who will leave sgm chesapeake. They really will need it. I remember when a church called word of life imploded (lots of bad stuff going on) and sgm “caught” some of those folks. You don’t want this to happen again and need the support.
Humbly Learning…you know me so please dont hear what I am NOT saying…but if I hear one more person come at me with the “you are not part the problem, therefore not part of the solution” I think I will pull all my hair out!!! Arent we a family of churches…don’t we rejoice when we hear testimonies of miracles or God redeeming lives in other churches??? Why then are we brought correction when we know painful testimonies from our “family of churches”??????!!!!!!! This is ridiculous! We are apart of the problem and are apart of the solution. Christians (any many churches not just SGM) are being hurt and neglected…isnt it our Christian “job” to love our neighbors as ourselves…did not the churches in the New Testament sell their belongings and give to the poor??? Did they even go to their church??? It is not specified as far as I can recall….but the church sacrificed and gave to the poor…..arent we commanded to help the widows and orphans??? Does it say…only if they go to our church and if they dont, its not your problem??!! Is anyone else horrified at the lack of care given to Esther and so many like her. DOes it matter what church they go to? Part of the problem would be to allow things to go unsaid, unchecked, un-confronted. Part of the solution is the same and to PRAY!
Stein Masterbrew ( i think i know you)-did you ask the 6 what exactly their steps were in beginning the “process”. Sounds to me and I have spoken to them personally as well, that they were going to be praying alot and meeting alot to figure out the biblical next steps…what it meant to “bring it to the church”. Just as much as the pastors had no intention of hurting or neglecting or for horrible counsel that destroys the soul….theses couples intent was not too hurt the church, but to be witnesses to the truth and abuses they have seen. These people have been involved for a long time with meeting and bringing things to the pastors-and yet it was declared by them that it was only twice….are you kidding me??? These people have been gut-wrenched to bring this to the Pastors….but I praise GOd that they had more fear of their God than MAN! That they love their church, their friends, and THEIR PASTORS so much to walk this road. SM-People have told me over and over since my situation, Journeygirl, I am sure you are not lying but what you are saying doesnt “balance” with the pastor you are speaking of. It is much easier to believe the man over you (as we all should love and respect and trust them) than to believe the Holy Spirit inside. It is a sad truth in so many churches…I would have never thought in a million years my marriage would end thus. That the man who was like my second father would hurt me most. I have no bitterness or even anger towards my ex husband, but unfortunately I struggle with anger, hurt and bitterness towards the senior pastor. And when people ask me for details and I share (still desiring to protect my old pastor), its funny how people outside of SG and even non Christians are horrified and I havent even told the really bad stuff….and yet, people in SG (actually only the men-imagine that) have a hard time believing me and come up with all sorts of possible excuses….as if there are any. The only couples that share in my horror are ones that did not originate from the east coast churches….do you think that means something??? Stein, be very thorough in you questions…and ask them. I Was talking to someone last night and they were remarking how they were told that it was unnecessary information…I beg your pardon??? Why go to school? Why read??? It is because knowledge and information make you more capable of making a wise decision. Ignoring information (both “good” and “bad”) mean that you are not making an informed decision…you are blindly making one out of ignorance. How can we learn about the Love of God unless we read and speak to others? How can I be a good mom unless I ask questions or watch others and interact? To hear both sides of the story fully, I believe, is the Godly response. Arrogance is ignoring information if I may be so frank.
And truth, I guess, is a “virus” like you stated….The truth divides and SETS THE CAPTIVES FREE…and I’m so glad that Jesus set me free singing glory, halleluiah, Jesus set me free!
Love you Stein, whether I know you or not, I am praying for you, the church and the pastors!
journeygirltruth@hotmail.com
And Freedom’s right…I went to Word of Life…we were rocked off the boat and were in deep need of specific counsel. If you are thinking of leaving the church, you should contact someone who has that you rspect or someone you know respected them…I seem to remember back in the day that New Life had a small group of people from the church. If anyone needs some contacts, you can email me.
Journey Girl – thanks, I was actually thinking of your family as one of the people. I didn’t want to post “Hey, guess what happened to Journey Girl’s family” as that would have been gossip. But, posting that x church imploded and sgm caught some of the folks is a different thing. I can’t remember if it was your parents, you sisters or someone else that gave me the inside scoop on what happened.
You probably have many more contacts in that I would at this point. I haven’t lived in the area since the 90′s. I wish I had some outside contacts when I left the church. It’s really tough to see what is happening – I really feel for the people at the church. I put so much of my life into that church and seeing people there being deceived is not something I like.
Well, the improtant thing is to not get pulled into another bad situation because of what is happening. It’s like people who jump from abusive realtionship to abusive realtionship because they don’t know how to break the cycle.
I think there’s a lot of wisdom in seeking out care, like an exit counselor. And the idea of many people sticking together to support one another sounds good, too. Good luck with it all!
Freedom, you said: “Well, the improtant thing is to not get pulled into another bad situation because of what is happening. It’s like people who jump from abusive realtionship to abusive realtionship because they don’t know how to break the cycle.”
I totally agree. But an important thing to remember is that GOD LEADS US INDIVIDUALLY. Not everyone is called to leave, not everyone is called to leave at the same time, not everyone is called to leave in the same manner – some are told to speak out, others are told to leave quietly…we need to individually seek the Lord in our own situation and not assume, in a very difficult time of confusion, fear and doubt, that what everyone else thinks/feels/does is also God’s will for us.
When you’ve been in an abusive situation in a church, the habit has been to follow the corwd, or follow your leaders, and many have lost their ability to hear and follow the Spirit of God. TO be led by the Spirit is KEY right now. For each of you consideirng your next move. There are likely many distractions ahead – take some time and be still before the Lord, listen for HIs voice and leading. It may take some time to readjust to hearing HIS voice after years of hearing so many others voices (pastors, apostles, books, preachers, care group leaders…)
but take heart, and be encouraged – God will lead you. Follow HIM.
” Not everyone is called to leave, not everyone is called to leave at the same time, not everyone is called to leave in the same manner – some are told to speak out, others are told to leave quietly…we need to individually seek the Lord in our own situation and not assume, in a very difficult time of confusion, fear and doubt, that what everyone else thinks/feels/does is also God’s will for us.”
You are so right on. He is a God of such individual care and plan.
Almost an Ex sgc-er,
Welcome. And good luck for hte near future. God will lead you. He loves you and each of us so.
Dear almost an Ex-SGMer–
We puke with you, my friend. .05% of a church budget to benevolence. That is not 5%, that is .05%
Let me say that in words:
FIVE ONE/HUNDRETHS OF ONE PERCENT.
Let’s say that another way: everything a family gave $2000 to the budget of their church, $1 was given for the poor and needy.
In other words, 1/2000 of the budget was used to help the poor and needy.
“By your fruits you shall know them.”
I guess the only question is WHY THE CONTINUED LOYALTY TO A PLACE, RATHER THAN TO THE WORD AND BRIDE OF CHRIST?
You are free to worship with another body. Life in Christ in NOT about your friends. Life in Christ is about him.
ReformedTeacher, it’s worse than that: “benevolence” also covers the honorariums paid to guest speakers, visiting SGM pastors/apostles, etc.
It may very well be that they didn’t pay a single cent to help the poor.
Hey R.T.! I am “Almost an Ex sgc-er” because we will drop our letter of resignation off in the lobby after CJ says his thing. My family has been visiting other Churches for quite sometime now. We wanted to be part of the “family meeting”!!!! I might as well bring my barf bag with me.
We have only held our membership there for the past few months because we wanted to stand with and beside the 3 couples since we believe in what they did. I actually hope CJ will say “Please stand if you will be resigning tonight”………………
Almost exsgmer,
I thank you for your courage and the integrity to stand with the three couples. I’m sure they will be blessed by your actions and I hope you have a lot of company.
Lets define benevolence,
1.
desire to do good to others; goodwill; charitableness: to be filled with benevolence toward one’s fellow creatures.
2.
an act of kindness; a charitable gift.
3.
English History. a forced contribution to the sovereign.
True SGC Chesapeake failed with one of its own members for fear of enabling the husband to continue in his ways. Bad decision,……Yes, who could argue that. The pastors have asked for forgiveness for this specific sin. What about the church in Warez, Mexico….the orphanage that SGC has poured out thousands of dollars too. The many men and women who have taken the trek, blood, sweat, and tears that even most of the ’6′ have participated in. I would consider that benevolence.
Yes Stein…..I too gave money to the E-team, but little did I know SGC wasn’t even helping those with in our Church. SGC also cooks hot dogs and hamburgers and hires blow up jumpy things for a neighborhood all summer long 2 years in a row…..as outreach yet no-reach with-in is sad for me………..
Jim, Can we set up “Almost an Ex sgc-er” an account to do a live-blog of the meeting on the 25th?
Stein,
What category does SGCC’s work in Warez fall under in your annual financial report?
The financial report is the context of the three couples statement.
What precipitated the confession by the pastors in regards to Esther? Input from Gene, Shank, Harvey, or CJ? Everyone already knows the answer.
Hey Collateral…I’m in! I wish I could be wired somehow!!!!!! Like I said before, Jan 25th is it for me!
Stein, you said “What about the church in Warez, Mexico….the orphanage that SGC has poured out thousands of dollars too”
I assume you are referring to the church plant in Juarez, Mexico that will be the future home of the SGM Pastor’s College to train South/Central America pastors and plant more SGM churches there? Hardly qualifies as benevolence, or missions really. SGM churches are traditionally lacking with regard to supporting local ministries, aside from a few exceptions of course, my former church included.
And about the orphanage, WHAT orphanage? I’ve never heard anything about an orphanage sponosored or supported by SGM. Only thing that comes clost is Covenant Mercies ministries, which is an orphan sponsored program with money going to SGM approved local churches to then give out money to those THEY think are in need. I agree with accountability when it comes to finances in an often-corrupt overseas “ministries” but I think SGM’s accountability is more a means of control, yet again. (btw, Covenant Mercies is the USA ministry thru an SGM church, but they partner with churches in African countries)
Almost ex- I wish I could be there with you, and other brothers and sister at the family meeTing and stand by your side, and the side of Biblical truth. Remember when you take a stand, you are standing for hundreds and thousands of others as well, when you take a stand against the injustices of authoritairanism and abusive pastoral counsel. So even if there is only a remnant present at that meeting that will stand for truth, you will represent a far greater number who could not be there in person. Remember that, and take courage!
Our prayers will most certainly be with you. And yes, I’d bring your barf bag.
If I were you, I’d hand your resignation letter directly to CJ himself, in hand, not leaving it in the lobby passively, and tell him “I am no longer under your authority or the authority of SGM pastors. I am under the authority and covering of Jesus Christ, My Risen Lord, and I submit to HIM.”
Because in all honesty, a good pastor, a humble pastor, would applaud you for submitting to Christ, even if it means leaving that particular church. Yet somehow I think CJ would be angry, offended, or just plain put off by such a comment.
some may call me paranoid, but the more you guys talk about being at the meeting and taking notes, making recordings, don’t be surprised if the meeting gets cancelled, becomes by invite only, or they frisk you as you go in the doors…
cause you know they are reading these blogs and they should be sweating bullets knowing the little ol’ sheep ain’t to docile and dumb anymore, but their eyes are open and they are out for justice…
Shepherds, beware. to those of you who have abused and battered the sheep under your care. God Himself will be their Shepherd..and as for you..well, unless you repent…I guess I would say: it sucks to be you.
Yeah, what “almost” is saying rings true to me…the first e-team I participated in with SGM, I was expressly forbidden from doing any fundraising within the church. The reason for this, as explicitly stated by the Sr. P., was he didn’t want to take from the church’s tithes.
The stuff in Juarez and Bolivia and the handful of other countries SGM has work in is always played as a trump card against anyone who criticizes the level of benevolence and missions work that the group does. Here’s my two problems with that: first, and I can’t say this is true across the board, the folks that are at the Juarez church and others aren’t economically or evangelistically any different from your average church member in Gaithersburg. They’re middle-to-upper-class folks who were already Christians when SGM arrived on the scene. We’re not talking the slums of Mexico city, we’re talking people who are rather comfortable. Second, even if this counted as what most people here mean when they say “benevolence”, it’s still a pathetically small part of the budget at any SGM church I’ve ever come into contact with.
What I’m about to say is a rather across-the-board statement, but I’ll say it anyways: I don’t know of any denomination/group of churches that stinks as bad as SGM does at benevolence. Compare them to whoever you like, PCA, Southern Baptists, Calvary Chapel, Vineyard, Roman Catholic, whoever, SGM stinks in comparison. My church here in Boston, which is of a comparable size to the larger SGM churches (just shy of 2000 members), and has about as many people on staff (or more) as you would expect to see at an SGM church of that size, gives 40% of the annual budget to foreign missions and benevolence. Now, explain to me why, even if the building is not payed off, a church the size of Chesapeake can’t cough up more than a measly grand for benevolence? “He who gives to the poor lends to the Lord”. May we all take this verse more seriously.
Stein.
The mission in ‘Juarez’ you mean?
Jesus commands the church and believers to give to the poor, both in and out of the church. Get a grip. .05%
I wonder, have you ever been in another gathering of the church? (this would be translated to: have you ever gone to a non-SGM church?)
Most of them consider it a minimum starting point to give 10% to benevolence. Then, more to missions.
The trips to Juarez are neat. Most churches do multiple trips to all sorts of places, including missions in their own towns.
But what about the poor and needy?
Hmmm. On second thought.
The poor are often messy. Would someone who is poor feel comfortable going to these ‘local churches?’ Bringing their messiness along with them?
Their divorces? Their lack of husbands or wives in the home? Their abuse? Their neediness? Their job searches? Their undereducation? Their messy children that attend messy public schools? Their sadness? Their hunger? Their clothes that aren’t quite right? Their children that don’t know the right words and the fact that Christians don’t date?
You know, those messy people Jesus hung out with all the time. Heck, he even made a bunch of ‘em his best friends, and later called them ‘apostles.’
And then their ‘apostolic authority’ then trickled down to…….CJ!!!
Hey messy people!! Come and woship with the rest of us messy people!! We are all messy — but Jesus is good to us all.
Travis–re:4:39.
Terrifying. Are you kidding me????
Thanks, Journey Girl. I was feeling like I’d overstepped by telling of the incident where they overheard Esther on the phone. I don’t live in Virginia, know nothing of the workings of this church, having left ten years ago to join another wonderful, free church. I was feeling like it wasn’t my business to be talking about the situation so freely, thus the “not part of the problem or solution” comment.
After reading your post, I do believe it’s appropriate for all of us to be gathered here in one accord — to keep a record of what has been said and done. And Stein, I wish you would email me privately. There are a few things I’d like you to know. If it’s convenient for you. You don’t have to tell me who you are or you may. Either way.
There is a stirring within the heart of God and after much prayer and agonizing over this situation because it concerns people I dearly love, I have come to believe that God wants to free everyone who will allow Him to from the bondage to the directives these men have given you. You no longer have to be a part of the problem or the solution to offer wisdom. You do not have to be accountable to your accountability partner but to God. You can worship wherever you please in whatever fashion the Lord directs. You do not have to homeschool unless you are called to. (We homeschool our children, but we know many well-adjusted kids who were not homeschooled.) You are free to sleep late, stay up late, watch whatever movies your God tells you are appropriate. You can even let your children sass you and get away with it. You can laugh at them and ruffle their hair instead of whipping them if you want to! This is your life and you are free to live. Really live! If even one of you does this, I’ll feel I didn’t go through all the disappointment for nothing.
I am praying for you all.
And one more thing… You can read whatever books you want to. Not just Sovereign Grace-approved books!
Juli…I almost wet my pants when I read your “sucks to be you” comment. Hilarious girl!
I am praying for the Holy Spirit to open more eyes and ears at this meeting. This could be a great testimony of humility and God’s love. We can always hope guys…without hope I would wallow in misery for sure.
RT: I wish I were, but… no.
And maybe you’ve already seen me write this elsewhere, but in a situation similar to what exintern just mentioned, the Joppa pastors told my CGL that they (literally) wouldn’t do a single thing to inform the congregation of the severe financial hardship a family in our care group was suffering through, because they didn’t want to distract the congregation from sacrificially giving for the about-to-launch “mission fund” to—get this—improve the church parking lot.
My “pride” and “rebellion” toward the pastors in response to this is what led to my eventual exit.
Travis:
The mission fund was intended to improve the parking lot? If this were not so funny I would cry at the lack of concern for unbelievers.
Unfortunatelly, I think this is true for most SGM churches. At my old church, the Mission Fund was intended to receive donations to be used to retire the mortgage and the goal after retiring the mortgage was to use the funds previously alloted for debt service to (a) hire additional pastors and (b) possibly build a gymaniusm which most likely would be used to help the pastors fight off the effects of advancing middle age.
Sick
Humbly – I’d add you can listen to whatever music your conscience allows. I remember some friends’ Dad told them (years and years ago, this stuck me as odd) that they needed to “pray about buying the new Stryper album, since the lyrics aren’t as strong as previous album -against the law, great album, title song include they lyrics “I don’t live for you because I’m against your laws” speaking of leagalistic christianity and those that condemned Styper – as he put on the pat methany trio and talked about seeing him in concert!
‘Do as I say, not as I do”
Y’all crack me up! Just got back home. Yeah, I think it would suck to be in a Shepard position right now in Ches
Has anyone ever heard of a recorder that would look like a hearing aid? Oh yeah, that’s right, they’d probably take it at the door…………hoping I wouldn’t be able to hear! I think I will do what Juli suggested by giving my letter directly to CJ. They will probably treat him like some rock star and exit him backstage!
Please do pray for us. Honestly, this is why we have waited to resign. We truly love the 3 couples that came forward and knew they were the real deal. They have so much integrity, discernment, and would never do anything to hurt anyone. I believe everything they have said is true.
Someone does need to record it. Anyone good at bootleging concerts that give some tips on hwo to sneak a recording devide in?
Travis,
My ex-husband – a CGL – wouldn’t allow me to help a single mom that was struggling financially. He did a financial review – made her prove she had a need – and she did. She only needed $20 every two weeks to meet her bills. I was working full time and I wanted us to provide that for her. He said no because we wouldn’t get the tax deduction. That just killed me. Giving should be about more than tax deductions. So I gave her the money myself out of my “allowance”.
Freedom-
Don’t bootleg it-you need to let the church know you are recording the meeting or else you’re in danger of breaking privacy laws….
This is my first posting–The SGCC has taken several trips to Juarez to work in an orphanage there. The Ches. church has helped the orphanage alot with construction projects and having teens help do various projects. Let’s give them credit for this benevolence.
Freedom:
I have a cousin that is a jazz musician and for a time he was pretty heavily into Pat Metheny’s form of jazz which is sort of a combination of freeform and fusion jazz but probably more centered on the former. There is no denying that Methany is a prodigous musical talent but my cousion used to routinely refer to Methany’s work as “Cocaine Jazz” for reasons which should be obvious.
So the point is, which would be the better influence? Stryper (who I myself do not particularly care for) or the indiscriminate musical ramblings of man influeced by drugs? ….just wondering
Annie:
You are right. SGCC should be commended for its work at the Juarez Orphanage but having been to Juarez twice on e-teams I can affirm what someone posted earlier. Namely, that the Juarez church is an upper middle classs church where most people are hardly sufferering. The first time I went we went to a first night reception at someone’s home which had tiled floorrs, very large rooms, a walled, grassy filled backyard. I felt more like I was in San Diego that a third world country.
Musicman – good point
Up until a few months I was actually still sending monthly contributions to the national SGM because I still held out hope that the national organization was somehow either unware of some of the abuses at the local congregation level or perhaps was at least somewhat committed to changing these behaviors. However, because I now convinced that real reform is not going to come anytime soon, I have stopped these contributions. However, since I did make contributions last year, I received a copy SGM’s 2008 financial statements with my contribution statement.
Here are some interesting facts:
Contributions from churches: approximately $ 3.5M
(Contributions from others: approximate;y $ 2M
(Other would be presumabley folks like myself who were too naive to stop giving
Sales of merchandise: $ 1.1M
Total revenue: Approximately $ 8.3M
Total compensation and benefits: Approximately $ 4M (almost half of the revenue)
Gifts and Grants: Approximately $ 1.3M
Travel and Hospitality $ 500K
Promotion: $ 320K (Probably for promoting various books)
However, no line item specifically called “MIssions”, “Outreach” or “Evangelism”
sales
I forgot to add that perhaps real reform will come to SGM when the money starts to dry up. They used to say about Eastern Europe when the region was still dominated by communist regimes that the people did have demoracy because the people could always “Vote with their feet”. To people still in SGM churches, perhaps it is time for you to start voting.
formersgmer
If I am reading what you just posted correctly, you are saying that SGM spent around $4M in compensation and benefits and these compensation and benefits were only for SGM salaries and not for the compensation and benefits of local SGM members.
That certainly seems like a lot. I am guessing that this figure includes paying for those on the “apostolic” team and the whatever national administrative staff they have?
If they had 40 people on staff that averaged compensation and benefits at $100K then that would be one to get to that $4M figure. Does anyone know what size national staff they have?
Steve:
The compensation and benefits amount would only be for the national organization but I think I heard somewhere that when CJ used to be the senior pastor at CLC part of his salary was paid by CLC and part by SGM because of his dual role as senior pastor and leader of the apostolic team. I assume that Joshua Harris salary may also be bifurcated in this way.
Jim:
Would you know if SGM does split payroll costs this way?
Item number 9 that was listed in the email by the three couples:
“9. Presenting a distorted gospel. The gospel as presented from our pulpit has been very one-sided. It’s been weighted so heavily upon the doctrine of sin that a lack of hope and joy are driving numbers of people out of the church. We love and appreciate the doctrine of sin, but without balance, the eyes of the flock are left upon their sinfulness and the death on the cross. The gospel is meant to be good news, but our over-emphasis upon the sinfulness of man leaves people feeling discouraged, disheartened and depressed.”
as most know, isn’t an issue specific to just this local SGM Church but from discussions I have seen, is ubiquitous to the group. This is a reflection of the teaching that comes down from the top (Mahaney).
FYI (in particular STEIN): There will be many on Sunday that will be reisgning their membership at SGC Ches. This I do know, and am sad, yet excited. Excited that there will finally be change. As a CGL, I will need to be there for those who we care for (the only reason we most likely will not resign ours…at that time. There will be many wounded, I feel, after that meeting, who will need care…many of these being our friends). It appears to us, the only way things will be made right, is if the three pastors step down, and the church institutes an oversight board, something akin to an eldership. This, however, I fear, will never happen, since it is contrary to SCMs Modus Operendi (spelling)! I believe now that CJ would rather see the entire SGC Ches. break free from their oversight, than institute such an accountability feature. Incidently, it does appear that STEIN might well be a former SGC pastor??? He certainly knows the talk and says the right words…especialy suspect: 10 years at SGC and a physical attachment to it….I wonder. Additionally, I do know, directly from one of the three couples, that the reason the e-mail was sent out on Saturday, the 20th, is that their backs were against the wall, and since they were not invited to the party, they decided to show up via their friends through an e-mail to them. This appears to have been forced by the pastors and Gene, who precluded their involvement, yet sought to lambaste them without them being present. There is a name for this: BACKSTABBING!
so if everyone reisgns, or at least many do, then giving drops…what % do you think will really leave?
about the financial report stats- if 3.5 million were given from the churches, someone do the math on that one – there are about 25,000 members (max) in all the SGM churches, and ther eare something like 74 church, so how does that break down? LOTS of money being given by the churches…WAY more than I thought.
CLose friends of mine were adopting 2 children from Uganda last year. When I asked the Sr Pastor if a fund could be set up to help them (for oversight and convenience) since they needed some help financially, he said “I’d really like to get the new building paid off first..then maybe we will see about a fund..”
God intervened, they got their money through hard work and God’s exceptional provision for work..and the church got no “credit” which is what I was praying for. I was afraid if they did give them money in the end and “resuce them” at the last minute when the deadline was fast approaching, then it would be a means to hook them in more….you’d think the churches would use money as a means of controlling the sheep, would work wonders..but guess they can control for cheap, they don’t need to buy the loyalty of the sheep..they just brainwash it out of them for no cost at all..(to the leaders anyway)
Point 9 well taken.
I think I can factor it down even more; fear.
The common denominator for all of this is fear.
The parenting is fear-based.
Indwelling sin; fear-based.
Tithing; fear-based.
The accusation of gossip and slandar; fear-based.
How many of you (us, actually,) were *afraid* to post here when we started sharing our thoughts? I bet the vast majority.
Fear, folks, its the currency of SGM and the modus operendi (hey, I spelled it the same as LS, but doesn’t mean it’s correct,) the modus operendi of the pastor. IOW, Fear is the short and curlies by which they control their masses.
DB–you hit the nail on the head.
SGMers are controlled by fear. Fear of their pastors disapproval. Fear of their kids becoming unmanageable, which they fear will make them look like bad parents. Fear they will be excluded from an event. Fear to send their kids to school or to college. Fear they won’t be part of their children’s marriage. Fear that they need their pastors’ approval to send their kid on a weekend away. Fear they don’t have a husband who is a good leader. Fear they don’t have a wife that submits. Fear that they will dress wrong, listen to the wrong music, read the wrong books, teach the wrong Math curriculum, buy the wrong car….so very sad to see the anxiety all the time in my large group SGM friends.
Fear does not come from God.
Fear comes from the enemy.
Do the logic, people. If you are living life with fear and anxiety, you are not living the life God offers you.
You are living the life that the enemy desires for you.
Yes, RT!
I was hoping someone would bring up #9. It’s near and dear to my heart as it’s the reason we left. When Ken H asked me (the only person who did ask me) why we were leaving, at the time all I could come up with was “It’s so ingrown! You can only read books written by their people, you can’t start a Bible study for your neighbors!” (They admonished me for doing this and said if I had wanted a Bible study I should have told the CGL and his wife would have offered us one — which she later did. So I can’t have the women on my cul-de-sac over to eat lunch and pray for one another?)
With many years and some perspective, the problem wasn’t the insulation as much as how the focus on sin — and things that really weren’t sin but just variances within the body of Christ like the Stryper thing — and how horrible we all are. It leaves Jesus on the cross. And didn’t someone here say, or maybe it was in their document, there were plenty of people who were crucified, but only ONE raised from the dead?
As I stare out my window at the snow (we don’t get snow here often) I’m reminded that love covers a multitude of sins. That’s so true. It really does. But we have to UNCOVER what’s being done like yanking off the bandaid and cleanse the wound and let it air out, not just keep slapping dirty bandaids on a gravely infected scab while giving holy hugs and hallelujahs. God doesn’t operate that way. He really doesn’t.
And while we’re on the subject of what the Bible does and does not say about the church. Let’s talk for a minute about apostles from 2 Corinthians 12:
“I ought to have been commended by you, for I am not in the least inferior to the “super-apostles,” even though I am nothing. 12The things that mark an apostle—signs, wonders and miracles—were done among you with great perseverance.”
I know we’re not all of the charismatic type here and you all know that I am. But if we’re talking about what the Bible says about apostleship, let’s see what it REALLY says… Nothing about beating the sheep, as it turns out. But there is something about that in Ezekiel:
Ezekiel 34
Shepherds and Sheep
1 The word of the LORD came to me: 2 “Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel; prophesy and say to them: ‘This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Woe to the shepherds of Israel who only take care of themselves! Should not shepherds take care of the flock? 3 You eat the curds, clothe yourselves with the wool and slaughter the choice animals, but you do not take care of the flock. 4 You have not strengthened the weak or healed the sick or bound up the injured. You have not brought back the strays or searched for the lost. You have ruled them harshly and brutally. 5 So they were scattered because there was no shepherd, and when they were scattered they became food for all the wild animals. 6 My sheep wandered over all the mountains and on every high hill. They were scattered over the whole earth, and no one searched or looked for them.
7 ” ‘Therefore, you shepherds, hear the word of the LORD : 8 As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, because my flock lacks a shepherd and so has been plundered and has become food for all the wild animals, and because my shepherds did not search for my flock but cared for themselves rather than for my flock, 9 therefore, O shepherds, hear the word of the LORD : 10 This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I am against the shepherds and will hold them accountable for my flock. I will remove them from tending the flock so that the shepherds can no longer feed themselves. I will rescue my flock from their mouths, and it will no longer be food for them.
verse 20:
20 ” ‘Therefore this is what the Sovereign LORD says to them: See, I myself will judge between the fat sheep and the lean sheep. 21 Because you shove with flank and shoulder, butting all the weak sheep with your horns until you have driven them away, 22 I will save my flock, and they will no longer be plundered. I will judge between one sheep and another. 23 I will place over them one shepherd, my servant David, and he will tend them; he will tend them and be their shepherd. 24 I the LORD will be their God, and my servant David will be prince among them. I the LORD have spoken. “
Stein,
I need to ask you a question in regard to your mention of the church in Juarez, Mexico in conjunction with benevolence. Are you saying they need our help financially? There are some crazy rich people in that congregation. I mean, crazy, crazy rich. Very comfortable pastors there, too. (Very comfortable is my gentile way of saying rich, again.) The pastors there for the most part are wonderful guys, too.
So, given the many wealthy people in that church, please explain to me why you chose to say that they have anything to do with your church’s benevloance funding. There’s no chance that you chose to mention that church simply because they ARE MEXICAN and for some reason you think that all Mexicans need our help, do you?
humblylearning said, “is your life and you are free to live. Really live! If even one of you does this, I’ll feel I didn’t go through all the disappointment for nothing. ”
That was really beautiful. Thanks for sharing.
Travis said, “the Joppa pastors told my CGL that they (literally) wouldn’t do a single thing to inform the congregation of the severe financial hardship a family in our care group was suffering through, because they didn’t want to distract the congregation from sacrificially giving for the about-to-launch “mission fund” to—get this—improve the church parking lot.
My “pride” and “rebellion” toward the pastors in response to this is what led to my eventual exit.”
Good for you for rebelling against such evil! I’m very proud of you.
humbly, may i add that you can wear the clothes you feel are ok between you and god for you to wear? i’ll never forget the time one particularly sweet but lethally legalistic dad pulled my son’s best friend (NOT even this guy’s own child, keep in mind) aside at a youth group meeting and told him that his shirt was too worldly.
did it have curse words written all over it?
no.
did it proclaim the glorious second coming of satan himself?
no.
did it have pictures of naked women on it?
no.
was it cut “down to there” so the girls could see his decolletage? (I know this makes little sense, just go with me on it.)
no.
well what was it about the shirt?
to this day i can’t even figure it out myself.
it was a hawaiian print shirt (sort of what you would see some middle aged suburban dad wearing in the mid 50′s or 60′s). i still can’t figure out how that shirt was somehow more “worldly” than any other shirt in that room. heaven knows, it drew less attention to itself than the denim, long skirted jumper with cartoon characters embroided over it that his 16 year old daughter had on.
i give the kid credit for not stripping down right there and then and handing all his clothes to this dad “in repentance”.
DB, proclaim it loud because it is true.
FEAR.
Almost Ex…praying for you and your family!!
Travis…a parking lot. wow. that takes the cake.
Steve240…*9 jumped out at me too. During our time w/SGM, my husband and I noted an alarming number of folks who were depressed. We couldn’t help but feel that the intense focus on sin was a huge part of that. They experienced no joy in their salvation, in the risen Christ, in his forgiveness and mercy!! Instead, we all were told over and over and over again that we were lower than a snake’s belly and constantly confronted about sin in our lives. Where was the love, the hope, the joy? Gone!!
Freedom Fighter, the insulation was oppressive too. I am not surprised that you were chastised for starting a Bible study w/your neighbor w/o permission. My kids were constantly chastised for fellowshipping w/other youth groups…even, at one point, youth from OTHER SGM churches!
Not surprised about the kiddo that was pulled aside for wearing a particular shirt either. My niece was told that wearing a red necklace had to be motivated by the sin of wanting to call attention to herself. My son was constantly chastised for wearing a baseball cap. And so on it went………
Yep…all of this is not surprising. It is absolutely a pattern, a sickness that is widespread throughout SGM and not particular to an individual church here and there.
“My niece was told that wearing a red necklace had to be motivated by the sin of wanting to call attention to herself.”
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and please allow me to add
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people, take your children and run, do not walk, run to the nearest exit.
I am one of those fearfull people you speak of. I didn’t drink all the koolaid but most of it. I was a closet reader(books not approved by sgm), I watched every word I said to the point of being terrified if I said anything wrong when talking to the pastor’s wives. My daughter WAS a sgmer all the way so I never had to be concerned about her dress, music, book reading, etc. She was the epitome of a model child. She was more “anxious” than me. I would dread caregroup, not because of the people , but what the atmosphere was. I never felt like I measured up and was fearful of saying the wrong thing or not responding correctly. My last cg was better, but it folded due to the leader’s not seeing eye to eye with things.
I have to keep pinching myself to believe I’m actually sitting here talking to people who are potentially from my old church and that they now understand what I have been saying. Can this be happening? I’m overjoyed at their deliverance. I almost don’t have any words. But I write for a living, so I suppose I can fumble through and find a few. First of all…
I MISS MY FRIENDS! I WANT THEM ALL BACK IN MY ARMS, AT MY HOUSE DRINKING COFFEE AND TALKING ABOUT SILLY THINGS!
I never, ever thought ANY of them would give me the time of day ever again and it hurt so much to lose their friendship. I know I’m taking a giant risk writing with my photo here, and I honestly only did it because I didn’t know how to take it down, but now I want to tell all of you who know me that I love and miss you and if you ever want to talk I’m here, ready to be your friend again and to counsel and love you. I don’t live in the same city anymore, but you can call me anytime. Email for my phone number… creativepowerhouse@gmail.com or find me on Facebook. Maybe you aren’t even here, but whoever IS here, tell your moms, wives, sisters, etc. that we love them and are praying earnestly and fervently for them!! God bless you all…
(Silly me… Now I’m sitting here analyzing whether or not to hit send because if I DON’T get any emails or phone calls from old friends I’ll be risking further rejection. I guess that’s the chance you take when you take a leap of faith! Also, I have a feeling many on here are the children of those I once knew. Now in their late teens and early 20s?)
Stunned I’m not familiar with the financial status of those within the Juarez church, but I was referring to the orphanage that SGC Chesapeake has supported for a number of years both monetarily, and physically with much labor and sweat. Since they are already a group of Christians I wouldn’t consider that missions. I mention the orphanage in Juarez simply because it is a real, sincere example of benevolence within SGC. I will say that many SGC needs to do a better, more detailed job on their financial statements in the future.
Freedom Fighter Thanks for getting on your face and praying for our church!! Many of us are truly grateful!!!
Reformed TeacherWhat group of SGCers do you hang out with? “Controlled by fear” ? Was this a personal experience? Pretty bold and broad statement.
Hardly the case for people I know at SGC Chesapeake, and I know a lot of people. Personally I could care less what anyone thinks of me, and I certainly wouldn’t fall under anyone’s control. Are there any other SGCers posting that have ever felt ‘controlled by fear’.?
Hi Anxious! I am right there with you, even to the point I would pray outloud (this took me years in CG to do!) and then the next person up that knew MORE than me corrected my prayer. I will NEVER forget when the Pastor had us get in small groups and pray for like 5 other countries, after I prayed and the next person up, actually corrected prayers I prayed because I didn’t use quite the verbage this couple did!!! Yeah, when I first went to SGC I asked about the bookstore and my CGL. He said they were “approved reading”……….but the good news is: I’m over it!!!!!
Dear Freedom Fighter,
My heart goes out to you for saying that you’re taking a giant risk puting your photo here–I don’t know you as I went to SGCC after you left. I hope that you really never feel you are at risk of rejection again! Keep fighting, sister! You are most fully accepted and loved in the true body of Christ.
I always thought “approved reading” simply meant the pastors recommended somthing as good that they had read. I never got the impression that we weren’t supposed to go out of the “SCM” bookstore. Coming out of previous SG church experience where pastors never recommended any reading materials or appeared to have read other books, this came to me as a good thing.
stein, I truly appreciate you getting back to me. Really, I do. Thank you.
Stein Masterbrew….this is Journey Girl raising my hand
,
You know what is sad? I had many fellow church goers and outside friends “challenge” me on this subject, but I passionately disagreed with them. My pastor was humble, preached against pride, against fear, helped me to see my sin…didnt he? It wasnt until God “dropped the veil” that I began to see, really see-dont freak out at this word…but DISCERNED what was going on. I would say that every single person I have spoken with ( and just like you I know a friggin alot of people) that has left or considered, takes the list to only two things. 1. An unbiblical balance of the Crucifiction and Resurrection of Jesus Christ. The “Cross centered life” is good in theory….but it is hopeless and powerless without the Resurrection. “Death defeated and life without end”. Most people hear 100x more about the cross and our sin, then we do about power over death and sin and hope and joy! We get so caught up in Doctrine and Theology, we forget about the LOVE of God. THe Gospel is not…” For Stein Master and JOurney Girl are such, horrible rotten sinners God sent his son…” IT IS: “For God so LOVED the world he sent his son…” We have become like the Puritans…a checklist of humility (check), death to pride (check), conditioning our mind and heart (check), knowing the scripture (check), modest (check)…etc….Are theses things good and right? ABSOLUTELY….but we (including myself) became legalistic with these things. IT is hard to explain S.M….I didnt see what my friends and fellow members saw until I was open to being led by the SPirit. Dont hear what I am not saying please. This is how conviction is brought about though,,,,the SPirit may bring something to light in my heart but not in yours. Maybe you can listen to U2 and be perfectly fine, but if I listen to U2 I get the hots for Bono
. I am saying that the Spirit leads us and shows us things in his time not ours. It wasnt until my life had fallen apart and I was broken, pregnant on the floor without my husband that I cried out for Gods deliverance. It came in a way I did not mean. It came in understanding, but in understanding I was given peace and a trust that My Father in Heaven would pick me up in His gentle arms and carry me through this. I had no idea that my “religion and doctrine” had become fear based. I was horrified when I did “see”. Yes, I was controlled by fear…others are controlled by fear…thats why it is hard to see…all the teachings sound “right and true and biblical”…but it gets twisted into something else…there is a reason the “Puritan” movement “died out”….legalism and fear kill you spirit and joy of the gospel.
SM-if you are a rat, woud you please email me? i would love to talk with you as you then know me and love me and i you…if you are not a rat
, then my guess is wrong and i do not wish to intrude in your life. But if it is you….i almost cried when i saw you the last time-why is it you bring that out in me? 
journeygirltruth@hotmail.com
former SGCer(1989-99)
present GCer (sgm church:-)
Stein,
In re: “Are there any other SGCers who have ever felt ‘controlled by fear’?”
Seriously? This blog is full of posters who felt controlled by fear. Not sure if by SGCers you meant only those who were at your church or at SGCs in general, but if you meant the latter, you can certainly count me in that. Looking back at my years in SGM, I now see that fear of disapproval colored every personal decision I made during that time.
And you know what? That’s how the pastors wanted us to feel.
Annie, I was told NOT to read certain books that weren’t on the approved list. But that was many years ago.
Stein, the women are completely overrun by fear. You mentioned once that you are a strong, sturdy type person. I’m assuming you’re a man since Stein seems like a man’s name. As moms, we often struggled and worried whether or not we were doing things right in raising our children. Then along come the Ezzos and those within SGM who were willing to tell us what to do and how our children should behave. To those of us with tender hearts — and God LOVES a tender heart — we were crushed underneath the burden of all the rules our kids had to obey. I know of many, the Butlers included, who later discovered their child was not obeying quickly, cheerfully, and completely because of a learning disability or other previously undiagnosed disorder. My daughter has OCD. She had tantrums. I remember one birthday party at Chris and Maria’s house where she hid behind a chair and threw a fit and we had to come and get her. We spanked her constantly, the proper way and followed by prayer and hugs. Still, she struggled and rebelled. Only much later did we discover that she had been counting the steps she took, the ceiling tiles in each room she entered, how many corners she turned while shopping at the mall so that she could turn the other way to “undo” them.
This precious daughter of mine did not have the words to describe the burden she was living under and all I did was spank her and spank her and spank her and force her to say “Yes, Mom,” because even saying “Okay, Mom” was wrong since saying okay means acquiessence rather than wholehearted obedience.
The constant struggle to be a good mom in front of the disapproving hierarchy left me bedraggled and worn. I was clinically depressed already and didn’t know it (the same genetics that gave my daughter OCD). So the burden and the fear was too much to bear. When we left, I actually left feeling like I was a failure and could not walk the high road of holiness my fellow sisters in Christ were walking.
Imagine my relief to discover the Vineyard in Chesapeake, where EVERYONE was accepted in Christ, from the man whose son was gay and whose wife had left him (he was the most amazing spirit-filled guy I knew) to the worship leader whose children were absolutely perfect at all times. There was a guy at that church who had been in the mafia and miraculously escaped. He used to go out to parks where gang members hung out in Norfolk and sit on the bench waiting to tell them his story. We had gang members begin joining our church as a result. These guys were scary-looking but completely sold out for God (Google God’s ex-ganstas).
All that to say, yes, Stein, there was a lot of fear. Fear of failure, letting God down, not measuring up. And now there is going to be a lot of repentance with tears between fathers and mothers and their children. You’re going to find guilt-ridden moms who have overdisciplined their kids grabbing them and holding them and loving on them. It will be beautiful and God will be pleased.
Journey Girl – Your post was amazing. Your expression perfect. Yes! For God so loved. Lets get back to the simple truth of the gospel! It is more than our sin that is for sure!
Stein-”Controlled by fear” DARN SKIPPY!!!!!!!
the Juarez orphanage is called Rancho 3M
It seems to me the clothing issue, like the wives submit issue got abused by well-intentioned persons. My children were spoken to at SGCC when they started to wear the black band T-shirts, even though the bands were “Christian”. I would knock heads with my kids myself on a Sunday morning when they might want to wear something that I thought would distract another person trying to worship. I was also spoken to in the ladies bathroom by a friend that wanted to know why i allowed my child to wear the color black. (My son had the black shirt but still the blue jeans) That being said, my kids then didn’t fit into the accepted dress code of polo shirts.
There can be a valid argument for what we wear showing our hearts moving to being unduly influenced by the world’s standards. For some of us, maybe a check is in order. There’s a fine line between mentioning something in genuine concern and love and making an issue over nothing. The church itself needs to have some standard–remember when Mark Dever brought up to CJ about the imodest dress in SG?
annie, I don’t know if you ever heard from the pulpit before how awful all other Christian bookstores were. The word dangerous was sometimes used. From my understanding, this was common in MANY sgm churches.
FF said, “where EVERYONE was accepted in Christ, from the man whose son was gay and whose wife had left him (he was the most amazing spirit-filled guy I knew)”
I just LOVE people who don’t look “pretty” and are “messed up” in the church’s eyes. Right where I belong! Gimme the losers and rejects. That’s where I fit in.
“I was also spoken to in the ladies bathroom by a friend that wanted to know why i allowed my child to wear the color black.”
Wow.
“The church itself needs to have some standard”
No. It doesn’t. Every person needs to be taught to listen to the Holy Spirit. It is HIS job to guide us. Not ANY standard.
almost an ex,
someone CORRECTED your prayer?! i know i should be upset for you. i am SURE that hurt like heck. but i have to say, i am actually laughing outloud over that one. oh my gosh! thank heavens that person was there to correct things or the holy spirit/god/jesus would NOT have known what to do!
stunned
but giggling
Travis:
You said that the honorariums we pay guest speakers comes out of the benevolence budget.
Do you have any thing to support this gratuitous assertion?
(If not, it is speculation at best, am I allowed to speculate about you? Let me know, because I am really, really good at speculating.)
Are we officially into “any thing bad about SG is true” territory? I’m afraid so.
Long-sufferer:
What is your deal? You just get more and more petty. Now you are trying to undermine Stein by speculating that he is a pastor? (you know the effect that “accusing” someone of being an SG pastor has on these sites)
Stunned:
Now you are playing the racism card? wow…
Years of trips and thousands and thousands of dollars poured into an ORPHANAGE are suddenly swept aside, and called racism.
No one calls you guys out on this B.S. but I won’t let it slide.
I am surprised that no one involved has asked you to just be quiet. You are an embarrassment to those who you would seek to support.
You are polluting the waters on what should be a clear issue of how the pastors respond to some very particular points outlined in the letters.
This isn’t fair to Esther, or the 3 couples, or ANYONE that is prayerfully approaching the leadership, that have agonized and prayed for months (and months) over how to proceed.
With a few hot-headed comments made in anonymity, you are making the bath water cloudier and cloudier, and it is going to be impossible for the leaders to see the baby.
Jim,
I appeal to you, you are allowing this to become a mockery.
By allowing such weak off-topic speculation, your site becomes less and less credible by the day, and easier to write-off. Is that what you want?
Everyone feel free to email me directly if anyone wants to take issue with me.
mynameisbillyblack@gmail.com
Hi Billy,
This is a blog. I speak for SGM Refuge, and everyone else speaks for themselves. Sharp, dull, spot on, nutty, the whole bag of chips. It is the nature of blogs, and I only censor heresy, and men who are rude to women.
I can address Travis’ statement. In many SGC’s, benevolence and honorariums are combined under “benevolence” on their financial statement. I understand this is not the case in Chesapeake. They were in my church, and I suppose that they were in Travis’.
Thinking men and women can separate a blog host and his guests. I’m not concerned with our credibility, just because our commenters have a wide array of opinions.
Now, if you’d like to attack the blog, please feel free to question my credibility.
You can email me directly as well. I’ll shoot back a note with my phone number, as it is included in every email I send.
jim@sgmrefuge.com
Just to ensure that we’re keeping our eye on the ball, I think the only credibility that matters at this point regarding Chesapeake is that of the 3 couples, the pastors, the finance team, and the “apostles”.
Freedom Fighter, beautiful testimony, and one I can relate to a lot! I was depressed most of my time in SGM, mostly low level apathetic and guilt/fear ridden, but at times very severly and suicidal. Once (when my second child was about 6 months old) I was so depressed and physically worn out from doing 95% of all night time stuff with kids, only 14 months apart (and nursing), we went to a pastor for some counsel. I think I was getting roughly 4 hrs of interupted sleep a night while my husband continued to get the normal amount, we thought this was our proper roles and my husband’s sleep was more important since he had to go to work hehe. The pastor listened and decided that my problem was that I had made sleep my idol. He gave NOT ONE peice of advice or counsel to my husband to indicate that he should take better care of me or be less selfish or make changes to let me get more sleep.
By God’s grace alone he miraculously pulled me out of that depression and others, not only that he has shown me that joy, peace, life are already mine in Jesus, free for the taking!
I don’t want to make my husband out to be an idiot, that wasn’t the case. We were both idiots! We had swallowed all the poisonous lies we were being taught and it was our fault we got sick. Do the guys who fed us that stuff share responsibility too? Yep. They should repent, change their minds, start believing and teaching truth. We have!
Incidently, we found a much needed refuge in a local Vineyard Church when we first left too!
Julie, every time i think about the time you went through that, I feel so sad for you and your whole family.
Do you know what stunned? Every time I pray for someone with depression now, they are set free, right away! It’s because I know that I know that I know it’s not God’s plan for anyone to be depressed, depression is like walking in death . God’s plan and provision through Jesus is LIFE! And the true real gospel brings us LIFE! Now that I know the gospel, I have confidence that whenver I share it and the person I’m sharing it will believes, they will be set utterly free. I have confidence because I’ve experienced myself, because I see it clearly in Scripture, because the Spirit is always testifying with my spirit that it’s true, God really is GOOD! He really does LOVE ME! I think depression doesn’t stand a chance as soon as someone begins to grasp the fact the God loves them personally, unashamedly, and lavishly. And his love is eternal, never conditional on us but on Jesus who is perfect and always will be. The gospel is the good news! Anyone who preaches to you that the gospel was given to reveal our sin is a liar. The gospel was given to reveal the righteousness of God, and righteousness is a gift that can never be earned or maintained by obedience to any law, principal, rule, guideline or regulation or other ‘good idea’. It is for us to believe God and it is for God to credit our belief to us as righteousness.
Are my ears deceiving me?! What is this abortion?! There is no proportion of Theology and Geometry here! We must….ah!…My valve!
I don’t understand what you mean, Ignatius. I’m pretty concrete, so I have a hard time interpreting — are you asking for a theological basis for what we’re saying? I can give you that if you’d like. My master’s is in Theology. : )
Here’s my depression story:
http://creativepowrhouse.blogspot.com
“You’re going to find guilt-ridden moms who have overdisciplined their kids grabbing them and holding them and loving on them. It will be beautiful and God will be pleased.” –
I coud not agree more. I was/am one of them. I hug and kiss on my ten year old son WAY more often than I did a year ago, when in an SGM church. I’m also just plain happier now about who he is, sin and all.
Ignatius,
I’ve never read A Confederacy of Dunces, but am somewhat familiar with the character by references. So, what exactly are you implying?
Former SGMer – as I mentioned, listen to what ever you want, as long as your conscience can allow it. It’s no different that wtching a movie or a TV show – what does your conscience allow you to watch? As far as Stryper vs Pat Methaney Trio, my issue is do as I say not as I do. Maybe that person needed to “pray” about his decision – lol! Mind you, this is the same person that called me up a week after I just boufght a new truck, asked me to use it to haul stuff around that would have scratched up my truck bed. When I said no, I was told I need to pray about it.
SM – I did have fear of having to see him and others in leadership the sunday that followed.
Journey Girl – I caught what you meant. I was thinking it was that person or two others and all three have been at SGM longer than 10 years, so either it’s not them or SM has a probelm telling the truth. Maybe that needs to be added to his SGM file. BTW – your U2 comment made me laugh!
Annie – that’s crazy that you where confronted. I think the whole dress thing is crazy!!!! What is wrong with black? Does everyone have to dress like CJ and Carolyn?????? The “modesty in dress” is far worse than when I left. What’s next? Making sure men and women go to seperate beaches? Or do the women have to dress in those bathing suites from the early 19th century that cover everything? I’d hate to hear how I would be correct for dressing my 4 year old (3 years old last summer) in a bikini to go to the pool – I presonally don’t care, but when your daughter is in swimming diapers and just potty trained, it’s a heck of a lot easier. GREAT that your kids are where concert t’s!!!! Good for them!!!! Rock on!!!!!! I was going to mention Sanctuary church in CA, a church full of fans of Metal (long hair, concert t’s, a number of christian rock/metal bands), but I guess there “doctrine” isn’t sound according to sgm (they don’t buy into legalism or the puritanical movement). Look who Jesus hung out with?
All women that posts – I have heard a recurring theme about depression, especially among female members and former members of SGM. That is a tough thing to deal with – I’ve had to deal with it in my family. I am willing to bet a number of the men suffer from it, they just don’t talk about it and keep it hidden, because they think it’s not what a “godly man” does.
Stein, you said: “I will say that many SGC needs to do a better, more detailed job on their financial statements in the future.”
What do you mean by that?
Why didn’t you say, “I will say that SGC needs to give more than 1/2000 of our budget to benevolence?”
Instead of hoping that SGC does a better job making sure no one knows that they are unwilling to give to the poor and needy, do you not hope for the day when they will be generous with the money that their members have given? Money that they could not “afford” to give, but that they gave in faith?
Do you really think that the people in the pews understand how their tithes are spent? Ha! I have been on church staff, and know the great ways that we use money: lunch meetings reimbursed (of course, we never hit the dollar menu at McDs), ‘planning retreats’ that never took place at a local park, unless it was the Park Inn, gas reimbursement for driving to meet a pal at Starbucks, which can be written off if you talked church business for a couple of minutes.
People in the pews, who grimace when they write that check, yet being confident of God’s provision, would have no idea.
That is why it IS truly a great idea to have “SGC needs to do a better, more detailed job on their financial statements in the future.” The less the sheeple know, the better.
FF,
My story is similar to yours and I was in a deep suicidal depression during my years at Covenant Fullofit.
And fear was my constant companion.
And I, too, am enjoying the grace and acceptance found at my local Vineyard church.
So glad you’re better, DB!
FF
Hey DB, out of curiosity, which VCF are you at?
Stein,
Fear was the air I breathed.
Julie and FF thank you for your openness about your depression.
Stein, who are you? Did you and Long Sufferer know us?
In Chester Springs…um…er…let me find a link…
http://www.vineyardchestersprings.org/main/
Jim,
A snipit from the Feb 2002 Virginian Pilot. Is this the same church?
Byline: STEVEN G. VEGH THE VIRGINIAN-PILOT
CHESAPEAKE — For a young church family, it’s a heck of a starter home.
At 48,600 square feet, the new worship space being built by Sovereign Grace Church will be as big as a Circuit City or a large supermarket. The building is rising at the corner of Centerville Turnpike and Elbow Road – a place of woods and farmland, not far from the advancing sprawl of Virginia Beach.
Sovereign Grace, which formed in 1987, has worshipped in rented space at Salem Middle School since 1991 and has never owned a building. Its membership, though, has grown steadily to more than 700, Senior Pastor John Butler said.
Yes, that’s it, PFR. John and Beverly are friends of mine here in Charlotte. Dear people. He’s been gone for a while.
I was wondering what happened to John Butler…I’m going to assume they are at another church outside sgm.
Here it goes. I am no longer going to be anonymous. I am Monica Robinson. We were a part of this church from 1994-1999. We were saved in this church and God used many of these people in our lives. God also has used and continues to use alot of what was put into us during our time there. We left when we went to plant a SGM Church in Cleveland Oh. We left that SGM church in 2002. I have been continuously getting emails with people questioning who I am and I have no reason to remain anonymous. We had some of our best times in SGM and some of our worst. Our leaving was extremely painful and we still seem some of the negative effects of this ministry in our lives and our childrens. If you want to know more please contact us at robbiesfam@yahoo.com.
My heart is breaking for what is going on here. I explained in an earlier post that I feel like the adult child of parents who are getting a divorce and I still have siblings living in the home. I realize that this divorce is going to have lasting affects on all involved. How sad that we as brothers and sisters in Christ choose to devour each other. We were personally involved with another women in a similar situation as “Esther”. We unfortunately counseled her in the “SGM”way back in 1999. When she contacted me to let me know that this situation was still continuing in 2008 and she was now being told that she could experience church discipline for not submitting to the pastors counsel, I wanted to scream. How is it that her husband could continue in his sin for a decade and not experience church discipline yet when she is told to submit to the pastors counsel and chooses not to, she then is facing church discipline within weeks???My husband called to defend her and then we told her to run and run fast.
If we still would have been local, there would be four couples and not just three!!! We love all of you and are continuing to pray. The sad things is that this is not just happening in Chesapeake. This is a systemic problem. We have personally been involved in this type of situation with friends in Denver, Orlando, and Charlotte. The fortunate thing is that my family has come out as survivors but many have come out as casualties:(
Oh my oh my. It is getting thick. This is some crazy stuff, but certainly at the heart of SGM’s problems: THEY NEED ELDERS!
And, to all those defenders who get so angry at all of this gossip, slander, etc. THIS SITE AND OTHERS LIKE WOULD NOT EXIST IF THERE WAS TRANSPARENCY IN THE CURRENT STATE OF SGM CHURCH POLITY. IT IS AUTHORITARIAN, ABUSIVE AND “UNBIBLICAL”.
My husband and I were reminiscing about some past hurts we experienced in a CMA church….didn’t need to find a website to voice our hurts…went right to the pastor and he lent a compassionate ear. Was horribly hurt and disturbed by a Christian college. No need to find a website. Went right to the president and told him my concerns.
THE GRIPPING FEAR AND CREEPY CODE OF SECRECY IN SGM HAS PROMPTED THE CREATION OF THESE SITES.
So proud of you, Monica (and hoping it will bring you relief!) Maybe some day…
I love you, Monica!!!
I already sort of “outed” you in the moving on section (in a good way).
In that section (moving on) someone said something like “SGM is for strong people.” I didn’t comment on that at the time, and I know the person meant no harm in saying that, but I want you to know that our Lord chooses to use the foolish to confound the wise and it is to the weak that He shows Himself strong. Blessed are the meek, the poor in spirit. To me, it’s too easy for the “strong” to strong arm those who are broken and close to the Lord, to manhandle them into submission while celebrating the strengths of the sturdy members. This ought not to be. And, in fact, I would even say this is contrary to what God intends for His church.
I will be praying and fasting this week for my old church. But I am also excited that God is doing such great things within the hearts of His people. My daughter gets text messages from teens in Chesapeake saying, “Your mom is on that refuge site again.” I’m glad to know they’re reading and learning and watching God move in our midst. What a glorious bride He has!!!
Monica – congrats on coming out of the SGM closet (LOL!)
FF – Good to know the youth are reading it! I always had a big heart for the teens at SGM.
Monica!
Thank you for “coming out”… and for standing up for, not only for Esther and the other dear woman you spoke of, but for the “three couples” who have shown great courage and love for their church by speaking out.
You are a woman of great courage, as well! I applaud you! I know the fear and angst involved in making the decision to “come out”… but the freedom truth brings removes all of the fear, dear Monica.
SGM can’t battle against truth… and there is far too much truth being exposed about SGM and their ungodly tactics. The leaders, from CJ all the way down to local pastors and care group leaders should be on their faces, begging for forgiveness, instead of trying to cover their butts yet again!
Someone sent me an email last night, noting the new courage shown on this site-by women.
His question is my question…
WHERE ARE THE MEN?
Yes, I think I may have spoken with the man who emailed you last night saying “Where are the men?” My suspicions were that they are afraid. Or have been emasculated by the SGM leaders — left to wallow in their guilt as failures rather than raised as servant leaders.
My husband’s take on it was completely different. He did not run into nearly as many problems while we were involved in our SG church. The men were the rulers — they played golf together and talked about work and ruled over their wives and children. It was the women who suffered under the burden of running the entire household singlehandedly and on one income, homeschooling the children (the MANY children since we were encouraged to allow God to decide the population of the quiver), and to submit, submit, submit even to a husband who was not walking with the Lord at all! There have been discussions on Survivors about how the plight of women in SGM was much worse than that of men. So if my husband is correct, the men have basically been on a cake walk this whole time. They may not even see or believe what we have been saying.
Humbly,
A “man” who enjoys the cake walk is a eunuch.
The men are at home:
shaving their heads;
reading books about how to make wives submit to them (something men are never commanded to do–submission is between a woman and God);
talking about football;
thinking hard about how to be a joy to their pastors.
Too busy for anything else.
RT-
Funny, as usual.
I resemble the football statement
Being the most blessed man on the planet, Carole’s as much of a fan as I am.
I agree that the men, in general, have it easier than the women…however, the men in my family are an exception, praise God. Exintern is my oldest son…my other son has also posted (although it’s been a while) on survivors. And my husband wanted to leave long before the rest of us did as he knew nearly from the get-go that it was not a good place to be. Currently, I know of at least two couples at our former SGM church, where the husband desires to leave and stays only because the wives don’t want to leave their friends (although I have tried to point out that if these folks are really their friends, they will still be their friends even if they no longer go to the same church….of course, we all know that won’t be the case, sadly….but in that case, they were never really friends to begin with!). So….maybe all is not lost when it comes to the men??
The depression is a quite serious thing, though. Towards the end of our time there, the depression and oppression were nearly palpable. It was frightening to observe. I remember one Sunday morning, I was standing off to the side as people were coming out after the service and it hit me like a ton of bricks….walking w/their heads down, a look of sadness and/or wariness on their faces, no laughing, hugging or joy. I had to fight back the tears…it was quite eery.
Stunned….yeah, doesn’t that just blow your mind about the necklace?! I kid you not…it was a necklace of small red beads that was adorable w/her outfit. And it was just….a necklace!!! The same w/my son and the baseball caps….he wouldn’t wear them unless he was motivated by the sin of wanting to call attention to himself (this is a young man who has loved baseball since he was a toddler and has worn baseball caps since then as well!!). I vehemently agree with you: people, take your children and run to the nearest exit!!!!!!!!!!!!
Patty said, “Towards the end of our time there, the depression and oppression were nearly palpable. It was frightening to observe. I remember one Sunday morning, I was standing off to the side as people were coming out after the service and it hit me like a ton of bricks….walking w/their heads down, a look of sadness and/or wariness on their faces, no laughing, hugging or joy. I had to fight back the tears…it was quite eery. ”
Patty, I normally experienced seeing/feeling the utter sadness and depression as people came walking INTO church. I encourage all SGMers to get to church early one Sunday and stand to the side, where you won’t be noticed and watch people as they come in. (Not the “stars” of the church, but the kids no one knows, the parents who aren’t in the “in” crowd. ) Watch them when they don’t see anyone else, when they are not brightening up to greet someone. Watch their countenance. And feel the Lord’s heart. See if your does not break in response.
Stunned….yeah, doesn’t that just blow your mind about the necklace?! …. The same w/my son and the baseball caps….he wouldn’t wear them unless he was motivated by the sin of wanting to call attention to himself ”
This reminds me of the Mom who used to brag about how modest her kids were. (Hmmm, bragging… modest… that alone begs a comparison.) Her teen-aged daughter used to walk with her head held high with how modest she was.
Let’s see- doesn’t modest mean that the person is not necessarily drawing attention to yourself? Cause dressing like your mother when she is in her 40′s and you are a teenager DRAWS ATTENTION TO YOURSELF! NOT dressing like the culture around you DRAWS ATTENTION TO YOURSELF!
Nuns wore habits because that was the dress of the common woman back when the “habit craze” started. The whole point was not covering the body so that pervy men who objectify women would not get turned on (and trust me, pervy men can get turned on by a burka!), but so that their dress would not draw attention to themselves, but allow them to relate to the common man and for the common man to relate to them.
To NOT dress like those around you IS DRAWING ATTENTION TO YOURSELF! It is to put up a barrier between you and those you want to reach!
Let me tell you a dull little story about a housewife named Stunned. She had a LOVE of boots (still does). (OK, so LOVE is a little strong. Let’s say she had a slight crush on them.)
One day, as she was running her errands she found a store going out of business. It had a pair of boots that called out to her.
“Stunned,” they said, “Come buy us. You love us and we love you, too!”
Stunned’s heart lurched toward the boots. She tenderly picked up the price tag to discover (due to the store closing) that they were well within her meager means. ($15 was the price for the perfect pair of boots.)
She imagined how happy her feet would be, walking through the grocery store in these lovely, Bohemian, earthy boots.
But, alas, therein lay the problem.
Stunned loved these boots. But she loved her Lord, and the other housewives she encountered even more. She knew that the typical Suburban housewives that she was called to minister to, to love, and to draw to Christ would see these boots (these wonderful, lovely, brown suede boots) and draw back a bit inside. She knew these boots were “different” enough that the quiet, broken women she was called to love would not be able to overcome the “different-ness” of these boots, not be able to jump over that hurdle of “different”. She knew that if there were only ONE woman who could not hear or feel her message of love, because these silly boots might create a barrier, then that it would NOT be loving of Stunned to wear them.
So as much as she loved those boots, she turned and walked away. Her heart hurt a bit. They longed for the boots that felt, oh so much, “her”. But she longed to destroy any barriers between her fellow housewives and the message of love she was to bring them more.
And when I went and lived overseas, tramping around with both the rich and the destitute- those boots would have come in handy and my housewife clothes would have created barriers.
A baseball cap doesn’t draw attention to oneself if that is what one’s peers are wearing. It can show relate-ability. Something many SGM kids need oh so badly. And so, too, a few of their parents.
Aw, Stunned. You make me wanna go out and buy you a pair o’ boots! We spent way too much time thinking and analyzing and not nearly enough time praying and loving the needy. Lesson learned.
Stunned, last summer two SGM friends and I had a little discussion about go-go boots (knee high boots) and the one said to the other that the fact her husbands LIKED them so much indicated that other men would as well. It was very condemning. I called the other sister the next day and said “You know what? You’re free to wear those boots if you want. Don’t worry about what ___ said.”
Sad thing is, I didn’t have the courage then to turn to my legalistic friend and say “Shame on your for putting a burden on your sister that Jesus is not asking her to bear.”
but i was chicken back then, but not anymore!
Monica, your “outing” gives me such joy and encouragement. God will honor your courage and many others will find it as well, including, yes our beloved brothers in SGM.
to my brothers in SGM – I believe in the God who called you, chose you, redeemed you, and began a good work in you, that He will finish the work. You will be given strength, courage, healing, and be rightfully restored to the roles that our Father intended for you. Even though these roles have been twisted and confused by SGM’s teachings, you will find truth, and you will find rest, and you will find joy.
Please know that many sisters, daughters, wives are praying for you. We love you! And we know you will make our Father pleased when you do take a stand for what is true. We believe you will, and want to encourage you to do so as soon as possible. When it happens, we will glorify the Lord together. Take courage brethren!
Doug Robinson here. Blessed husband of Grieved but Hopeful. I would like to weigh in on the e-mail question and following comments about “where are the men”. This is my first time posting, however, I have been following many of the posts for some time. I have been wrestling with God over the past several weeks about whether to add my two cents to this site. I struggle with things like: are these sites helpful, are they a means of grace that God can use toward healing and reconciliation, are the people who need to be reading and posting here the ones actually here, are the words and heart of what gets written pleasing and honoring to God, and so on. At the same time I also see that many people (many of whom I know personally) are able to meet on common ground and bring into the light abusive situations and treatment that has been repressed, ignored, or refuted for far too long. All that being said, while I still have extremely mixed feelings about all this, I felt it appropriate, especially in light of the question about men, to say a few words
I would offer a couple opinions to the question Jim posed:
His question is my question…
WHERE ARE THE MEN?
My first thought, though not directly answering the question, speaks not to the relative silence of men, but rather the presence of the women. The women who are posting here are finally and rightfully letting their voice be heard. I read through these threads and hear Godly, discerning, persevering, courageous, mature, gifted, Christ-loving daughters of the King who are able/permitted/free to be heard. (yes, one of those is my wife!) It is my opinion and first hand experience with SGM, that women are functionally marginalized, repressed, and trivialized, with very specific parameters on what a “Godly woman” looks like. So, perhaps, as women break free from this paradigm, and move out from under the patriarchal, domineering, oppressive government of their lives, they begin to function in their God given capacity to express themselves and be heard in ways that they should have all along.
(oh, the danger of saying what I’m not saying or vice versa….Thus the hazards of posting on blogs)
A second thought speaks directly to the men. I feel very well qualified to speak to this (Obviously, because I am a man…ha). More specifically, my experience within SGM was wonderful/terrible (which, by the way is one of the reasons people have such a hard time reconciling all this mess with SGM…because there is a lot that God has done in and through peoples lives that is, past and present, wonderful. But, as we all know, there has been, past and present, the terrible as well…I digress). Though every guy will be somewhat different, an all too common reality for those of us beyond SGM, is that the men, much like the women, have to re-discover who they are as a man in Christ. I know that there are flipant statements that I’ve heard about men being spiritually emasculated or castrated. Though graffic and perhaps somehwat amuzing to say, this has been my personal experience and my observation of many others. I have had 6 years of seperation, and I would say that for me this re-discovery process (obviously still on-going) has taken some time. Depending on where men find themselves in this process may be one of the reasons for their relative silence. Men are encouraged implicity or in some instances explicitly, to aspire to “Godly/or biblical” manhood as seen in the example of….leadership. So, to be a Christ-emulating, God glorifying man is to act, talk, look like, lead like the pastors and “a”postles (if I could make that “a” even smaller, I would). As men truly discover who Christ IS (the one who is alive and empowering us, and not just the one who died on the cross for me), and consequently who they are in Him, then and only then will men be the loving, passioante, courageous, sacrificing, servant-leaders that we are called to be.
Do men need to speak up here, and everywhere else for that matter, becoming increasingly who we are in Christ? I say yes! May God re-vitalize and re-form, in His image (not man’s or ministry’s), all that was repressed, stunted, or taken away in the hearts and lives of men and women alike.
Doug,
Excellent post. Thank you!
BTW, I struggle with the questions you asked in your first paragraph.
Welcome!
Doug, beautifully and powerfully said. Thank you so much brother, for having the courage to speak up, and add your two cents (which I personally think it worth QUITE a bit more!)
Monica is blessed to have you as her husband, and you are blessed to have her as your wife. Couples such as you give me hope, that in all the mess and confusion, God’s wonderful plan and intention for marriage, men, and women, will shine through even in the darkness of wonky teachings – truth always prevails!
thank you again, from the bottom of my heart,
Your sister in Christ, Juli
Doug, I forgot to say that I too struggle and still do with the same concerns as you about the blogs’ purpose, effectiveness, etc. Each day the Lord is revealing much that encourages me that much healing and ministry is accomplished, even through battered sheep, simply out of our love for one another and the Lord. It is a beautiful thing to behold, when you are not distracted by all the “other” stuff that can also go on at times!
As a general question, is there some sort of a community forum or message board where questions and discussions can be posted? I have a serious SGM experience that I’m interested in sharing. Yet I’m not sure if it merits being posted on SGM refuge, especially in light of the sobering events in the Chesapeake church (coincidentally the church where my story is coming from too).
Welcome, Doug!
We all struggle with the whole “is this the place to discuss all this?” thing. But if we didn’t have a place to gather, we would each believe the lie that the problem is us. I lived under that for far too long. And way too many prozac prescriptions have been written based on it. The poster who said Paul took it to the entire church had a valid point. If you look at all this with a bird’s eye view, it’s really a bunch of Christian brothers and sisters trying to get clarity about a really sticky situation. The flaws in docrine were so hard to articulate at the time we left, but they have been articulated here. I see it as a positive thing. A way to bring about change, cleansing for all of us and for SGM.
That said, it would be nice if we could all try to think “Would Jesus say this to or about so-and-so?” before we hit submit comment. I know that those who are still in SGM are reading here and thinking, “How can I trust that these are godly people with sincere grievances against the movement when they speak sarcastically or rudely?” I also know some of you are so raw that nothing but pain comes out no matter what. To you, I say freedom in Christ. Say what you have to and you can depend on my support every step of the way.
Megan
Good to see you again, Doug! We’ve missed you!
And Franklin, it was on my heart this morning to start some sort of private forum. But I don’t know how to do such things. A yahoogroup, maybe?
After briefly reading through this.. I am really proud of the couple’s and Esther.. they seemed to be the true role models in this whole situation..
Praying for you guys. For EVERYONE involved.
What time is the meeting?
Their website says:
“On Sunday, January 25 at 6:00 pm. Members and individuals who have recently attended the membership course are invited to attend. Children ages 10 and up are also welcome to attend the meeting. Please make this a priority.
Free child care available for children ages 6 months to 9 years old. For more information contact the church office.”
Hopefully the pastors involved on their “retreat” did some serious soul searching vs. figuring a way to manuever out of this especially if their manuevering would have been to blame others to hide what they have apparently done wrong.
I am so troubled. I pray that God has His way at this meeting and those that would use weasel words to hide behind would be stopped in their tracks. I pray that the Holy Spirit will blow the fog and confusion away.
“T H I S I S A H O L Y P R O C E S S”…………… This is the new wordage coming from the halls of leadership in regards to the Chesapeake earthquake. Perhaps those words will be spoken at the Family Meeting today. (or not).—And yes— because God is Holy—it is He Who has uncovered and brought to Light the grievous sins of the pastors………FF and Juli have pointed out so well the scriptures keys for believing true repentance: FRUIT —Anyone see fruit grow quickly??? Fruit production requires a timely process—thus,the analogy Jesus gave in observing and judging others by their ‘fruit”.—Genuine broken hearted repentance requires intense actions—-Will the pastors be broken-hearted enough,serious enough, to step aside and submit theirselves to the light of the Holy Spirit and tested brothers in Christ to help them in the digging up of the fallow ground of their hearts???—Or, will there be lipservice—-a whitewash—similar to ….”waxed fruit”….it LOOKS like the real thing…but is it????……..Much preparation and checked lists have occured this past week…..as each of “the Three Couples” met with the pastors–Would they report that the pastors didnot show any of the characterstics that they walked in for the past years?? (not acknowledging,owning and repenting of their own sins; intimidating and verbally strong-arming; coarse,mocking, or unfounded accusations) Only they know—And we all await to watch for genuine fruit to unfold….”He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the Lord REQUIRE of you but to do JUSTICE and to love KINDNESS and to walk HUMBLY WITH YOUR GOD.” { Micah 6:8}…praying for Truth to prevail…….
We are praying as well. I’m truly hoping to hear a good report after tonight’s meeting.
To all of our brothers and sisters in Chesapeake: We are faithfully lifting you up in prayer tonight. May God’s purpose be accomplished… may you hear His voice, leading you and guiding you into His Truth, even now as you prepare, and throughout this night… may your eyes and ears be open, and may you have wisdom and discernment to see and hear clearly.
Our thoughts, prayers, and hearts are joined with yours.
Did anyone else other then me wonder why children 10 and up are invited? I think that’s a pretty young age to be sitting in a meeting of this seriousness – the pastors told a women that was with an emotionally/pshycially abuse husband to NOT leave, they endangered her life.
I know I can be too cynical towards sgm, but a big part of me wonders if they are doing it for CONTROL purposes (and I’m not talking about agent 86!) – I could see the Pastor’s thinking that the parents may be more in line if young children are in attendance.
Now, what about the people watching the young children? Anyone wanna bet it’s the singles and teens? I could be wrong, but knowing how sgm expects singles and teens to serve more than married people, I wouldn’t be suprised.
BUCKY – can you comment? Your comments have been very enlightening!!!!
I also wonder why they are allowing children that young to attend this. One would think that they are too young to be hearing some of what should be discussed at this meeting. Guess we will have to wait and see.
Freedom & Steve,
It was on my mind as well. A serious discussion of the situation would be intense and overwhelming. I also think it would be hard on the children to listen to any tense questions and answers.
Well, if we can recongnize it, so can the pastors. Whatere is said will be watered down, the parents who have brought their tweens may not speak out as much. I really do think it is all about control, they COULD BE (I didn’t say it is happening), but could be using the children to water down the message and keep the “inmates from taking over the prison”
any word yet? Been praying…
I, too, am praying.
Juli,
No word yet… keep praying!
Waters, you said…
<<as each of “the Three Couples” met with the pastors–Would they report that the pastors did not show any of the characteristics that they walked in for the past years?? (not acknowledging, owning and repenting of their own sins; intimidating and verbally strong-arming; coarse, mocking, or unfounded accusations) Only they know—>>
I spoke with one of them and she told me the pastors went down their list item by item and apologized for each and every one.
My husband thinks they did it because they were cornered. But only God knows the heart of a man. We all have come out of this movement and can see clearly that what they did was wrong. Those who are in it cannot see so clearly. I tend not to be too hard on these pastors. They were doing what they were trained to do. They have forgotten how their hearts once beat so passionately for God. My prayer is that He blows in strongly and unmistakeably with the power and unction of the Holy Spirit to cleanse and purify this whole denomination and free the captives, even those who caused harm. And I pray that the repentance is sincere and freedom from the bondage to legalism is the result.
FF,
Apologies are good… but there is a vast difference between “I’m sorry” and true repentance (which means “to change”). Are you saying that they repented and promised to change? Will fruit of repentance be seen? Are they repentant enough to step down? Will they attempt to restore the reputations they tried to destroy on Dec 20th?
Inquiring minds…
Carole, you sound just like my husband. I’ve been known to be a bleeding heart type person. Mercy is my gifting. I just really want it to be true and for things to be healed, ya know? Sometimes that just isn’t possible. I think many families will still leave. Our friends (one of the couples) are going to another church and some other friends of ours who left a few years ago have seen many familiar SG faces at their new church recently, too. Which is great! God be praised. His people are worshipping Him. Who cares where? (as long as it’s a healthy, functional church…)
If their methods of control remain what they will do is wait a while and then announce a leadership change. The leaders will step down for someone more gifted. They will wait awhile though so they can say it wasn’t because of Esther. This is because if they did it now they will see it as giving up some control to Esther and they can’t do that, not to a sheep or a woman.
Freedom Fighter said:
“My husband thinks they did it because they were cornered. But only God knows the heart of a man. We all have come out of this movement and can see clearly that what they did was wrong. Those who are in it cannot see so clearly. I tend not to be too hard on these pastors. They were doing what they were trained to do.”
I do really wonder about SGM leadership. They are quick to quote this Scripture:
Heb 13:17
17 Obey your leaders, and submit to them; for they keep watch over your souls, as those who will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with grief, for this would be unprofitable for you.
NASB
They emphasize the submission (which means something slightly different in the Greek) part but they seem to be neglecting the “give an account part.”
If they truly realized the meaning of the word “give an account” then one would think their actions would be different. It would provide more motivation to do the right thing than thousands of blogs and bloggers reporting on and analyzing their actions especially their questionable actions.
Will be interesting to see what is reported.
FF,
Sorry… I replied to your post before it was edited… my bad!
Just received word from one of the teens that things didn’t go particularly well:
They skirted around the issues and admitted there were flaws but made no effort to correct them.
Gene said the structure will not change and asking him to change it is like asking him to change the Bible.
If I got this wrong, I’m sure someone will correct me. This information was from a teen to my teen and then to me… This is third-hand, but I wanted you all to know…
Don’t know anything about CJ or what else was said. But I grieve for these men because of what Steve240 said above. They will have to give account.
You know, while I was waiting to hear what happened, I was watching the Duggar family show. You know the family with 18 kids? Their eldest son was getting married. They discussed the transfer of authority from the bride’s dad to Josh as they married, letting God decide how many children they will have, etc. These are not all horrible things, but they’re not the Gospel either. As long as Josh honors and respects and prefers his wife, things will be fine and she will have no reason not to submit to his perceived authority in her life. But wouldn’t it have been better to consider it a protective covering instead? And do we have to make doctrine out of such things? Esther, I’m sorry about all this and all you’ve been through. And I hope you find a really great new church home!
I just hate all this. Jesus would call them whitewashed tombs, I think. (not the Duggars, but SGM.)
“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men’s bones and everything unclean.” Matthew 23:27
I’m disappointed. But pressing on toward the mark of the high calling in Jesus Christ!
CJ wasn’t there. Gene ran the show.
Maybe Billy and Stein and Yawp will tell us what happened.
Jim,
That was my guess to…they invited the 10 year olds because they were going to do nothing. I’ve seen that pattern for years, I saw it this week…
Charles,
This week in Florida?
“Gene said the structure will not change and asking him to change it is like asking him to change the Bible.”
I find it funny that this answer seems to come up a lot. The more I read SGM stuff and compare what is being preached or written to what the Bible says the more I find things taken out of context.
Totally right on the 10 year olds. No way to speak true truth in front of them, and every reason to quit early to get the little rug rats home for bed before their stressful school day tomorrow.
I’m sad.
buying time..damage control…protecting their interests…not concerned about the sheep..(sigh)
you know what? God will bring good out of all of this. All of the people hurt by the actions and words of self-appointed shepherds in the churches..when will people realize that the Body of Christ is not a building, faith is not a doctrine, and Biblical fellowship is not a pot-luck dinner?
The Dearest PLACE on earth? Come on. God is not geographically challenged, and we should not be either. Wherever we are, as the Body of Christ, is the dearest place on earth because we are indwelt by His Spirit, and led by His Spirit. Doesn’t get any better than that!
Time to follow Christ - and it may just be outside those four beloved walls and into the real world, where ministry happens, people are comforted, the gospel is preached, lives are changed, glory to God is given…that is His Kingdom being advanced.
I’m sad too, but encouraged that once again God is revealing, truth is prevailing, and His disciples will continue to follow Him where He leads them.
brothers and sisters at Chesapeake – fix your eyes on your Lord, and follow Him, at all costs. Wherever and whatever that means for you.
I think it is confirmation that they are all about their control, authority, and keeping their kingdom intact. Women at SGM have no voice, no helper. Submission in SGM is forced. Control is acceptable behavior. They will never establish any checks and balances because they do not want them. They will admit error only when backed in a corner and someone says “check”. But the SGM kingdom has to be protected at all cost and even when stories like Esther’s or Noel’s come up – protecting the kingdom is the first goal. That is more important than Esther or Noel or Christ.
A church was not meant to be bondage and neither was marriage.
Juli said, “God is not geographically challenged, and we should not be either. Wherever we are, as the Body of Christ, is the dearest place on earth because we are indwelt by His Spirit, and led by His Spirit. Doesn’t get any better than that!”‘
Amen! What a beautiful truth you have just shared with us. Thank you! I had to underline the best parts.
Well said, Juli.
In my interactions with SGM folks, statements like your 3:14 really seem to confuse them.
Christ’s Bride does not have walls-or a mortgage. I’m not against buildings-I live in one.
I am against temples.
I was thinking the same of the 10 year old’s presence. Those who invited ten year olds aren’t going to discuss the serious issues at hand and those who went thinking they were going to broach serious subjects will have their concerns silenced in deference to the needs of the young to be protected from the more adult nature of some issues.
Brilliant strategery, SGM, well-played!
And OT regarding the Duggars,
I had to swallow the bile that was building up in my throat.
Josh Duggar is a typical second generation neopatrist. His education is, ahem, limited. Did anyone here see his political consulting webpage with errors that would have been picked up with spell check?
The boy isn’t living in the real world and has an ego the size of a small planet because, in his world, having a Y chromosome makes him in authority over at least half of the population and, gollygeeshucks, he got someone to transfer his authority over to him. Since I am nothing but a woman, I can only imagine the pride.
Too bad for him (and thank God says most of the rest of us,) this is a figment in their collective imaginations.) But its in harmony with SGM teachings on courtship, education, male-female roles, and umbrellas of authority. A sidenote, this supports the SGM is a lot like Gothard theory.
DB–I felt the same way about the Duggars. The father, on the morning of his beautiful daughter’s wedding, only blabs on about who is in authority over her now?
The Bible never tells man to take authority over a woman.
It tells the woman to be in submission to her husband.
It tells the husband to die for his wife.
didn’t hear any of that, did you?
Okay… I guess I’m out of the loop… who are the Duggars?
Never mind… Google is a wonderful thing!!
As the father of a large family, The Duggars disgust me. They are pimping out their family for the sake of getting a larger house, furnishings, and attention. They are viewed as freaks by several extended family members, and many who watch their show.
Sorry to further derail the real discussion here. I had to get that off my chest. Back to our regularly scheduled discussion…
Yeah, sorry I brought in the Duggars, but sitting there watching that wedding while waiting to hear about a Gothard-like church’s response to an abused wife’s neglect sort of did me in, too. I was trying to be polite earlier.
Something hit me this morning, though, and I need to share it. People like the Duggar family and those happily situated within the ranks of SGM churches are living in a bubble. To us living here on the outside and seeing the wrongs not being righted, they’re in need of rescuing (I’ve said this before). But let’s look for a minute at what they’d be giving up. My daughter made a good friend at her youth orchestra who she thought was a Christian. They shared a love of all things Lord of the Rings. They went to each other’s houses to play act scenes in full costume. They loved one another and had a great time together. Then one year her friend became distant and stopped returning calls. They were 18 now. Did the friendship play itself out now that college and real life was looming? No. This girl is now a lesbian. So my daughter, being in a non-SGM orchestra with a mix of kids, now is dealing with a somewhat challenging friendship. One of my other daughter’s good friends was put in a psych ward for punching through a car window. These were decent, Christian American kids from non-SGM churches.
I was pondering all we’ve gone through since leaving the bubble and all that the bubble kids will NOT go through — the Duggars of the world. Stifling dissension and abusing the needy in an effort to stifle their stories (for the greater good?), these bubble communities can remain intact. I can see why they don’t want to play outside with the rest of us. It’s messy. People get hurt. Sin is rampant — the blatant kind like stealing and the not so blatant kind like “not preferring one another.”
I guess what I’m saying — what the epiphany was for me this morning is — I now understand those of you who are unwilling to leave and face what’s out here in the real world. Even though those of us who are just like you are out here in the trenches, too, and we’d love for your kids to come over and play within our safe Christian homes. But I want to warn you. It’s a wicked tradeoff. You get your safe bubble, but at any given moment, without warning and for any reason, you could get pushed outside of it just like the rest of us did. And when there’s that much uniformity, the community doesn’t really represent reality. To “be in the world and not of it” is what we’re called to do. Not to “not be in the world.” Mennonites have their own communities and they shun their own children for leaving, thinking they will be so hurt that they’ll return to the community. They actually believe they would be in sin if they did NOT shun them. So you have your SGM churches doing much the same thing. Keeping the community pure and hoping we’ll repent and return.
Just curious. Has anyone ever returned?
FF, hate to break it to you, but that bubble you speak of doesn’t exsist in SGM. SGM people lie, cheat, steal, do drugs, and have sex outside of mariage. From what I understand, this includes having lesbian relations (relations? What am I? 65?) There’s no bubble, just the illusion of one. Only difference between the outside world and SGM, is at least the outside world is being honest about it.
Stunned, I completely concur. The bubble is a myth. We have family and friends outside of SGM (imagine that), whose kids have turned out much better and well balanced than many kids inside SGM.
Wow, Stunned and Coll. Damage.
Yeah, it’s different out here. The air is fresh and clean and we are on a mission from God to reach the lost and hurting. Pointed outward toward the messy world, not inward toward one another.
Guess I was in my own little bubble about all this, though I shouldn’t have been after all I’ve read here. I remember someone else recently saying that. My friend who is one of the “three.”
FF,
I do understand what you are trying to say. There is a country song (yes, I love country music – one of the things I found out about myself in 1997 when I left SGM – I began to have my own interests!), anyway, the song says, “you say you are washed in the water, but are you washed in the blood?” I think this explains why some SGM kids live in what seems like a bubble yet sin. If the law is preached, sin will abound. No grace to keep it away.
When I was in SGM, I too was in a bubble. Now, it is so different. We are called to influence those around us for Christ. If you stay away from unbelievers (which is what my life was like, once), how can you bring others to Jesus?
We have a couple of friends whom the Lord has given us much love for. They are married, and are deeply spiritual, yet they do not have the Holy Spirit, nor do they really know Jesus. There are demonic things that pop up in them every so often. You can actually “see” it. Well, instead of running for the hills, my husband and I are educating ourselves on what will be needed to bring the true gospel to this wonderful couple. We are learning what the Bible says about these things, as well as listening to teachings on spiritual warfare. Some of you here are cessationists. I have no desire to offend. However, when you are faced with something else looking back at you that isn’t your friend, or when something invisible gets in the car with you after being at your friends, well, it makes you rethink things. The thing in my car left after I asked it to in the name of Jesus. No fear, just “no thanks, don’t want to take you home.”
Anyway, I say this because there are many things outside of the bubble that I once would have run from. Not now. Jesus loves these friends of mine, and I believe He will fill them with His Holy Ghost, causing anything else inside of them to flee. We walk in wisdom, don’t get me wrong. There is much outside the bubble that has to be faced, too many lives effected by the evil of this world. WE are the Lord’s hands and feet! If we remain in our little communes, safe and sound, these people will never be reached.
Sorry if I got off subject. I get you, FF.
P.S.
I’m sorry if the mee-ting yesterday went the way of the ordinary. I think it will become impossible for these people who think differently to remain. We are watching another heart-breaker, folks. As I said before, uniformity is the treasure most protected in what I remember of SGM. That and their doctrine (which has alot of problems, unfortunately, when it involves “authority”). Also, CJ not being there makes sense. If he had come, it would have shown that the local leaders could not handle things on their own. That would not have been good for their leadership rep.
“Also, CJ not being there makes sense. If he had come, it would have shown that the local leaders could not handle things on their own. ”
Or maybe it would have shown that he cared for Esther and her children.
my question: why were the guys, the pastors from the PC not sitting with esther and standing behind her? Isn’t it the victims who normally need our care? I can’t think of a better woman to lead the woman’s ministry that they spoke about, than her. I hope they choose wisely
Stunned
who sadly knows that this “women’s miinistry” will not look anything like what the people in the seats last night were led to believe what it would look like in five year’s time- if in fact it will even still exist by then
“Or maybe it would have shown that he cared for Esther and her children.
my question: why were the guys, the pastors from the PC not sitting with esther and standing behind her? Isn’t it the victims who normally need our care?”
Stunned, those are good things to point out.
“There is much outside the bubble that has to be faced, too many lives effected by the evil of this world. WE are the Lord’s hands and feet! If we remain in our little communes, safe and sound, these people will never be reached.”
You didn’t get off this subject, Canary, not really. What you said here, is the whole reason why we’re here. To be Jesus’ hands and feet, to have His Heart, and by the power of the Holy Spirit, to help “rescue the prisoners”.
Good post!
I wonder what will be taught at this women’s ministry? I sure pray that it isn’t how to walk on eggshells more carefully around men. :/
Ellie,
Hee-hee. I hate walking on eggshells. They ALWAYS crack.
Hi and hugs to you!
FF, you wrote: I now understand those of you who are unwilling to leave and face what’s out here in the real world. Even though those of us who are just like you are out here in the trenches, too, and we’d love for your kids to come over and play within our safe Christian homes. But I want to warn you. It’s a wicked tradeoff. You get your safe bubble, but at any given moment, without warning and for any reason, you could get pushed outside of it just like the rest of us did.
I have to admit, last week my son was at the new church we attend. He was upset because the boys his age (10-12) all brought their hand-held computers with them..he wasn’t able to get to know them, all they do is play the games and talk about the games, etc…so my son was frustrated. He even confessed trying to “fit in” with them, and then said he couldn’t because he has never watched the movies they talkeda bout (I won’t let him) and he finally realized he just didn’t “fit in”
so this is at a CHURCH. It spurred a WONDERFUL conversation about being in the world but not part of it. I realized then and there that us being out of the bublle is challenging because we have messy things to deal with and lessons to be taught, feelings get hurt, things are confusing, etc. But all this causes us to GROW in our faith and in the grace of God! It doesn’t happen in isolation!
For about a nano-second I missed the children from the SGM church who were “safe” and didn’t watch the movies these kids did, whose parents “shared the same values” as me, and I could sort of relax when they played together.
But the trade off? My son was TERRIBLY hurt by the shunning. When the bubble burst his heart broke, just as you said FF. My heart broke too. He realized at far too young an age (nine) that some friendships are not real, only an illusion.
The whole SGM thing has caused both my son and I to grow tremendously. He told me once he felt like a weight had left his heart since leaving. I almost cried! SO even though outside the SGM bubble is messy (and even in other churches!) it is here that we grow, are stretched, rely on grace, and must fall on our faces before the Lord CONSTANTLY. Honestly, I didn’t “need” God in SGM. Every need was already met from within the Body:
covering? check!
sense of security? check!
accountability? check!
someone to point out my sin for me? check, check!
fellowship? check!
sense of belonging, purpose? check!
joy? uh, no.
passion? um, not really, except for the church.
faith? er, not so much, I was never stretched, I was so comfortable!
FF, If someone DID go back to the bubble after leaving, I can’t imagine what that would imply. I hate to imagine it. It is unthinkable what you’d trade in to go back in bondage. God killed the Isrealites for their lack of faith in the wilderness and they didn’t enter the Promosed Land. Going back into bondage is lack of faith. And that would anger the Lord, I would think!
Juli, good post.
I can totally understand your frustration and your son’s pain at the shunning he received in SGM and the same ‘shunning’ he received at the other church. So very sad, I am so sorry for this pain for both you and him
Life is messy, and kids are mean, and parents are lax about what they watch and read, and besides that, they text in worship and talk about Xbox and iTouches and naughty movies.
This is because they desperately need Jesus. Perfect kids don’t need Jesus. Why would they?
But I totally empathize with your frustration. Our kids ARE too worldly. I know one of mine is, that’s for sure.
However, I have recently, after placing him in a local prep school for high school, watched with fear and trepidation as he enters the world for the first time, by himself.
The first month was hell on earth in some ways. We thought he was over the deep end. He was entranced by the girls and the parties and the music and …… (not that he attended any, mind you, nice try though, dude.)
We prayed. We trusted. God provided a discipler for him.
And here we are, months into it.
I am so glad about what I see. He told me the other day, ‘I don’t care what people think about me. I just am who I am, and they can deal with it. I try to get along with everyone, but I am not going to make it my goal to please anyone.’
(he is well-liked, by the way, but won’t be asked to all the parties and trips…thank God.)
So, I see that in his case, a kid who thought it was cool to flirt with the world while still hiding in the church, when confronted with the pain in the real world, realized that relationship with God and life in the Body wasn’t all that bad after all.
So, what do we do about the moral messiness in the body, though? What is in the middle of worldliness and legalistic arrogance?
RT,
Your heart for kids comes across so loudly. It is beautiful.
I have four kids, ages 16-23, who all have their own faith in the Lord. My husband and I have taught them at early ages about Jesus, but there was a moment with each one where they had to have their own faith. This did involve sending them out into the world (in this case, college), praying they would find their own fellowship with other believers, being there to guide and answer questions when needed, trusting them to be a good influence on others instead of picking up the negative influences out there, even dealing with lust…omg, prayer is the only way through all this. I have to believe that my kids are part of the new covenant my husband and I have with the Lord. Kids must have their own trials and tests to grow their own faith. My four oldest are growing in the Lord because He has given them faith. Jesus is their Redeemer, not me or my church or my pastor.
Then there is my 14 year old daughter, who resists faith. She is going to need to have facts and experiences to believe the truth. She askes compelling questions. I fully believe that the Lord has called her. I see her struggle with the world. I want to jump in and take over. I fear. None of this works. I MUST give her to God, be there for her, and teach her when she is open. I don’t want her to have religion, I want her to KNOW Jesus.
You ask, so what do we do about the moral messiness in the body? Each child, teen, young adult has to be taught the true gospel, and know that the law itself cannot save. They have to learn, one by one, to listen to their own conscious. What might be good for one person might not be for another. We cannot judge another’s conscious.
My kids are computer nerds to the core, yet we are sensitive if others come over who believe that computer games are evil. We turn them off, out of love for our guests. My oldest will go to a movie that I might not go to, so I pray that the Lord will open his heart, change his thinking, whatever…but God has to be the revealer to what is right for HIM. He is 23 and doesn’t need his mommy to dictate to him ( I am not speaking of those things that are black and white sinful). If each child is taught about what it means to abide on the vine, that is, to walk with Jesus Christ (without all the leaven), they will learn what is right and wrong for themselves.
I don’t know if any of this made good sense. I just know that religion, rules, and the old law, will only increase the desire to sin, especially in our kids. It is grace that helps us withstand sin. It is loving Jesus that makes us want to be like Him. So, instead of giving our kids rules and regulations about God, we should help them to know Jesus, that personal, faithful, loving, joyful man that walked this earth 2009 years ago, and will be coming again to take up His own.
“I don’t want her to have religion, I want her to KNOW Jesus.”
This is what I want for mine, too, Canary!! What you wrote is soooo good, thank you!
{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{ }}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}
It took me awhile to realize that my expectations of other people and their families were unrealistic when we left SGM and went to visit other churches. It took awhile for me to realize that that nice warm secure fuzzy feeling was an illusion.
SGM kids are, “Safe,” because they’re conditioned to obey and be good. They’re too frightened to be anything. And I mean that, they’re conditioned to be frightened little shells that won’t saying mean to your son because they’ll be beaten if they do. They won’t play wicked guitar hero because they’re frightened. They’re friendly toward your son because they’re trained to be friendly because their parents want them to be friendly and they will be whipped if they are not cheerful. The minute you fall out of favor and you and your family stop being someone’s project, those nice warm friendly kids won’t be in your son’s life.
The messy kids in the other church, they may not be all those warm fuzzy things, but you’re likely getting to know the real McCoy not some little frightened drone in the SGM collective.
Which brings me to something that’s been bugging me, the kids in SGM churches are held to a higher standard than their pastors. The women and lower ranking dogs in the pack are held to a higher standard. Isn’t this bass akwards? Doesn’t the Bible tell us to hold our pastors to a higher standard?
If a fracking two year old in SGM gets beaten for not looking an adult in the eye and being friendly why do the pastors get away with not discussing serious subjects at hand? Why the lying, deception? Beat the four year old for not sharing her toys but you’ll have pretty landscaping and drown in freaking bottled water while Esther tries to put food on her table and keep a roof over her family’s head? Punish the teens for cliquishness but the leadership shows favoritism within their ranks.
And why, oh, why are you so proud of your Y chromosome? Its a tiny little chromosome, It doesn’t do much more than provide you with male plumbing, really, biologically, it isn’t particularly significant so why all the pride? Which goes back to the Duggars and Josh’s wedding and what someone said about them pimping out their families. Instead of it being a special day for the Bride and Groom, we get to hear the ikky transfer of authority. I’ve been to SGM weddings that aren’t much better that sounded like a “Wives Submit,” sermon more than anything else. This supports my hypothesis that SGM is Gothard retooled, Calvinized, and marketed to otherwise unreachable educated suburban Blue State populations.
INC said:
January 26th, 2009 at 1:13 pm
“Or maybe it would have shown that he cared for Esther and her children.
my question: why were the guys, the pastors from the PC not sitting with esther and standing behind her? Isn’t it the victims who normally need our care?”
Esther was not at the meeting because she is no longer a member and was not invited. Her oldest daughter was there though. The pastors would say that they had already confessed and “repented” to Esther at an earlier meeting.
Last month I made a comment here about SGM congregations’ “Benevolence” budgets including honorariums for visiting speakers. I’ve since re-found my copy of the Joppa, MD church’s ’05-’06 financial statement. They in fact have “Benevolence” and “Honoraria” as separate categories. So I was repeating something I had heard secondhand (Jim knows of SGM congregations combining the two), rather than recounting something I had seen for myself.
So I apologize for misspeaking due to my own laziness, and ask that y’all would forgive me.
In my ex-sgc’s 2008 Financial Statement, they are listed as separate categories as well.
The last one from this SGC was in 2005, in which the categories were combined.
I have no idea what the standard is in SGM, and I don’t want to paint his issue with a broad brush. If anything, it would appear that SGCs do indeed list these line items separately.
I’m just now reading this blog because we have friends who will be going to a new church plant that Gene Emerson is overseeing. Maybe I’m just getting old but my reading of the NT’s qualifications for being a pastor/elder is that these men who are acting as elders are supposed to really be elderly. At least some years of experience walking with Lord and handling the Word of God correctly. I know, Timothy was not that old but I believe he was the exception, not the rule. Couldn’t many of the abuses in the pastoral ministry be eliminated by more careful examination of possible candidates and especially looking for those who have shown years of wisdom and grace? Pastor/elders are held to a higher standard but no matter how experienced they are, there will always be sin that will creep out because they are also human. Hopefully, there will also be true humility to know when to step out (notice I said out, not down, because they are not on a different level from everyone else. Don’t get me started on the clergy/laity thing).
Mack,
Welcome to the blog. I love your comment about the clergy/laity thing. Don’t get us started, either!
I totally see your point. “Elders” should be older, experienced believers who’ve been around the block once or twice. I believe that some of the errors we followed in child training came from inexperienced SGM parents (leaders) who had yet to finish raising their children. Also, putting young men in their twenties in as Pastors or assistant pastors seems a little too much. They have yet to have any life experience, even if they did attend nine months of SGM pastor’s college (with little education elsewhere, for some of them). I’ve been on this blog for a while, and have read so many stories of wounded people who went through terrible things that could have been avoided if the leader involved had been more of an “Elder”. Of course, there is the lack-of-love issue. Don’t get ME started on that!
Again Mack, welcome to the Refuge. I hope you have had time to take a peek at PK’s two main posts on church polity. Very enlightening!
Yes, I have read through most of PK’s posts on polity. My husband and I have been in several different churches in our walk with the Lord and each one had a different way of doing leadership in the church. The presbytery form seems to have helped us the most. We actually were involved in the leadership of the church and it caused us to seek the Lord even more. Right now, it feels like every major decision for the church is already done for us which breeds a type of spiritual laziness or apathy. I know we’re not alone in this but I’ve had my years as a boat rocker and I’m tired of getting all wet! Hopefully, in a couple of years we will move out of this area and find something better.
Mack, my apologies, I assumed you were a man by your name – I had posted on another thread I was glad to see more men posting now, and mentioned you specifically – sorry my dear sister!
and yes, welcome to the refuge, glad to have your voice here..
Hee-hee, Juli, I must be following you. I just posted behind you that Mack is a woman. Easy mistake to make!
You know what. I think all of this is just plain gossip. Shut up!!! For the Glory of Christ and the church He bought with His blood do not publish your personal hurts to the world. Please. You have plenty of friends and elders and such to get counsel and comfort from. SGM is not perfect and will have problems. May I inform you that any church you join has the capability and probably will hurt you. There is no perfect church or organization. So get over it and stop being another tabloid. Do you hear me??? Just stop it. I am not a part of SGM, but I am a pastor. I have seen this victim whimping stuff to the point I am nauseated. Sheep, grow up. You will not find utopia until Christ returns. Sorry to have to tell you that.
Pastor Turnerash,
You just puked on my blog because you saw something that made you sick.
Now you know why people post here.
I have been a member of various churches throughout my 30 or so years as a Christian and I have never seen anything like the control issues I saw at PDI at any other church or in any other denomination. Pastor, you are not exhibiting grace and mercy toward the sheep. Jesus was a merciful shepherd. His yoke is easy and His burden light. He says “Come unto me all you who labor and are weary and I will give you rest for your souls.” Because our precious Savior is being misrepresented, we are still here.
Although we disagree, I love you, Pastor Turnerash, with the love Jesus has for His church, His bride.
Turnerash
I imagine things would have gone for the worse at the Chesapeake Church had SGM Leadership not had this and other blogs reporting what was happening. That is I am saying that with these blogs the actions of SGM Leadership is more in the spotlight. They can’t do things that they use to do without them possibly being reported on these blogs. Thus SGM Leadership is being more cautious.
Thus I see quite a good purpose these blogs serve.
Perhaps Brett Detweiler wouldn’t have stepped down and resigned if it weren’t for these blogs.
True, Steve, but I would much rather see true repentance, restoration, and change than people stepping down. Though I don’t know what the circumstances were surrounding Brent’s departure. You’d think I would since he lives in my city… I guess I no longer keep up with such goings on.
Time for a pop-quiz…………………….
Which of the following doctrines appear to be part of Turnerash’s faith?
A) The doctrine of shut up
B) The doctrine of get over it
C) The doctrine of just stop it
D) The doctrine of I am nauseated
E) The doctrine of Sheep, grow up
F) All of the above
……..and for extra credit, define “victim whimping ”
N.S.L.B.
Turnerash,
I was wondering how, as a pastor, you could be following the example of our good and great Shepherd Jesus and write what you just wrote on this blog?
“He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering. Like one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not” (Isa. 53:3).
“16 He went to Nazareth, where he had been brought up, and on the Sabbath day he went into the synagogue, as was his custom. And he stood up to read. 17 The scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him. Unrolling it, he found the place where it is written: 18 ‘The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to release the oppressed, 19 to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.’ 20 Then he rolled up the scroll, gave it back to the attendant and sat down. The eyes of everyone in the synagogue were fastened on him, 21 and he began by saying to them, ‘Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.’ 22 All spoke well of him and were amazed at the gracious words that came from his lips.” (Luke 4:16-22a).
“A bruised reed he will not break, and a smoldering wick he will not snuff out, till he leads justice to victory” (Mt. 12:20).
“The King will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.’ ” (Mt. 25:40).
Quizzler,
I will choose (F). I would also add that Turnerash came across with the same treatment some of us received from SGM, though perhaps not quite so rude. Who knows, perhaps we are threatening his own position over the sheep he claims to pastor, and who might be reading the Refuge. Leaders, at least in SGM, have no job security anymore. The truth is coming to light through this blog, and those who aren’t truly in the job of loving and caring for all their sheep (and they know who they are) have to look over their shoulder for any signs of a shanking. That’s gotta be a bit uncomfortable.
Quizzler… that was TOO funny! (Can you give me a hint as to what “victim whimping ” means? That’s a new one for me…)
Maybe pastor turnerash will come back and explain…
I have a hangerin’ for a good Shut up!!! with a side of get over it.
Make mine to go, please…
Me thinketh that turnerash is an imposter – posing as a pastor????
Carole…………..
I was hoping that Turnerash would define victim whimping as it was him/her that used the term above. Looks like Quizzler needs to do some homework on this interesting term.
N.S.L.B.
Oh, my. I can’t even finish reading this post – it’s all too much at one time!
We knew Trevor H, very well. Wow. I could totally vouche for his character, godliness, and help to at least some hurting families in SG. This post is mouth-dropping to me. I don’t doubt it, I believe that what happenned happened, but as I try to imagine what on EARTH happenned that he would change his stance on abusive marriages (because he did, he didn’t use to handle these situations like this!), all I can come up with is the peer pressure, top-down, cultishness I am beginning to see from these behind the scenes stories!!!
I am still stunned. Allow me to say that what was told to the members of the former church TH pastored before his move to Virginia Beach, was that there was a need in VB, that was all. He was not “dismissed”. At least, that was never EVER communicated to the members.
The story the former members there all believe now is that he was “let go” due to “financial difficulties” in the church there.
On one hand I can understand him being counseled to just not tell the truth (oh my, what would happen if he did??), on the other, it is just another example of SG not being honest, open, transparent, and accoutable to their “members”.
I will never believe another story of these church-hopping pastors again. They always leave, move on, are let go yadda yadda for such benign reasons. We never hear the truth.
I am so sorry for the pain caused at Chesapeake, I can NOT imagine. But one thing I am seeing is more and more clearly as I read testimonies is that it’s the SYSTEM. It doesn’t work. It doesn’t work. Because perhaps it’s not Biblical???
Oh my, my head is spinning… Lord bless you all. I don’t know what to say.
Again, it seems that the problem here is the top-down authority nonsense (er, heresy). Bad government corrupting potentially sincere followers of Christ. Oh my. Lord have mercy, I may just be hesistant to step into church again.
Anon, this story in Chesapeake is difficult to believe but it happened to the shock and disbelif of many. Shocking that men that you believed to be strong men of God were not! Shocking that what you thought was real Christianity was a sham, a counterfeit. Shocking that so much of what has been going on in SGM for years very closely resembles a cult. Shocking that adults of any age were so deceived and kept their families in this counterfeit church for so long. As you may guess, I am speaking of myself here! BUT, God is the Deliverer, the Redeemer, the Light that shines through the darkness. He is the One we put our trust in and He is the One and only One that we will stand before one day! My cry is Lord, show me Truth, show me Your real church. and show me real Christianity!! I want the REAL church, REAL Christianity, REAL Truth!! Nothing less will do and can only come from HIM!!!
Wow, Fred. The more and more testimonies I read, the more I hear from people who lived this stuff, the more and more I can see it’s not the believers that are responsible (although we need to be careful to guard ourselves against deception – but that’s the nature of deception – you don’t know you’re being decieved.. tough stuff). It’s the system, cult some call it, that is to blame, and the dynamics that are ready made within it to cause these tragedies to happen.
***That’s what happens when you quench the Spirit and ensure the Body can not function as Christ designed it.***
When I told my husband that I finally found out the story behind TH’s departure, his mouth just dropped open. And stayed that way. We are still shaking our heads in shock and disbelief. It makes me hate the set-up of SG even more. It’s not just that they are off a bit, they are downright wrong. It’s not Biblical. It reaps what it sows.
I heard recently that TH is still there at Chesapeake. Is that true? I don’t know how it all went down, but what is the news now? Did the church split? Did many leave? No one talks about anything anywhere in SG so we never knew and will never know unless we poke around.
So glad I found this site and all the normal people here.
Anon,
Thank you, again, for writing and sharing your story and thank you, too, for giving us all the “fresh” eyes of one who is seeing the insidious hierarchial structure of SGM Corp.
During the Cheapeake upheaval, the men of the “3 Couples” (who became Esther’s advocates) were absolutely shocked and astonished when they met behind closed doors with pastors KB and BC. These pastors became threatening oppressive bullies — a completely different ‘face’ than the one the members of Chesapeake were accustomed to seeing. This is one reason it is so difficult for fellow congregants to believe the testimony of the oppressed Brethren. —However, it is significantly revelatory in showing the SGM structure of leadership and pastors will will will obey the edicts of SGM, even to the point of manipulating, oppressing and controling the Brethren.
— KB had begun instituting a formal Doctrine incorporating an SGM ‘Law’ which would deny women Biblical freedom to separate from her spouse (even in the case of physical abuse). This doctrine, according to KB, was aided by J Purswell and edited in writing help by another member of Chesapeake.
—Presently, because of the uncovering of this, this is not an official doctrine,yet we are vigilant in watching for any sign of this evil oppressive ‘doctrine’ to manifest.
— AS G Emerson told the 3 couples “These pastors just need to learn a different way” ( meaning KB and BC)—well, KB has sure watched how GE handled the whole KingsWay travesty: *Deflection* Charge those who have been lied about with the sin of pride etc*
—So, it all becomes business as usual—and KB has been mentored on how to operate in an insidious manner. Now KB and his band of church planters will land in Charlottesville VA — keepin’ on keepin’ on……….
As you so aptly stated, anon: “bad (SGM) government corrupting potentially sincere followers of Christ.”
Anon, when TH came to Chesapeake, KB told the congregation that TH’s former church was not a “fit” for him and that’s why he left. Seems like this was a different story from the one you were told! Now that he is no longer a pastor, maybe he will come on refuge and tell the real reason as to why he left your congregation. Apparently SGC was his 3rd SG church.
Fred, when TH left for Chesapeake the reason was communicated that it was because Chesapeake had a need. That’s it.
BTW, why is TH no longer a pastor, really? Was he fired? Forced to step down? Did he leave on his own? (sorry to make you all repeat yourselves, I haven’t found the post that sums up how it all ended there, ie why he left. Again, it is reported in other parts b/c of “financial reasons”, ie no money to pay his salary). I heard that even tho he in unemployed by the church, he is still attending there.
Again, sorry if that has already been explained and I missed it – this is a huge site and I’m still reading all the testimonies.
Anon, TH is no longer a pastor but is still in the Chesapeake church. The congregation was told that finances were the reason for his termination/firing. He was involved in all that went on in the Chesapeake church in 2008 and was probably involved with EH’s departure from Chesapeake. Remember EH went to pastors’ college and is now sr. pastor in Chesapeake after KB was removed.
One really cannot be certain of the reasons why TH was removed because we have seen over and over throughout this movement that the “leadership” does not tell the congregation the true story when a pastor is removed. There was another TH removed as pastor in the Chesapeake church at another time and the congregation was told that he no longer had the grace to serve as pastor. This was totallly untrue. The man was out and out fired so that the sr. pastor at that time, KB, could bring in one of his own handpicked guys. Everything these “guys” do is suspect!
Anon, Have you considered calling TH since you knew him in his previous church and thought so highly of him? Who knows if you could find out the real story or not. Seems like the pastors who have been fired continue to have a loyalty to SGM and are reluctant to tell what really happened.
I feel really dumb, especially since I came from the Chesapeake church, but could someone email and tell me what TH stands for? I know KB and EH — remember EH as a teen. But I can’t figure out TH.
Fred, I was talking with someone recently, to clarify why TH left his former church, and they remembered it being communicated that it wasn’t a “good fit” for him. I remember it being about “the need in VB”. So I guess both reasons were given, it just what each remembered.
What bothers me are two things: 1) input, prayer, consultation, and counsel (imagine, from other believers who are not pastors lol) or vote was never asked from the lowly sheep 2) “good fit” (if that indeed was the reason), was not elaborated upon in the least. I mean, what does “good fit” mean anyway? And good fit for whom?
TH was dearly loved and a total blessing at his former church (this is not to defend any wrong doing on his part in VB at all). If there was anything that went wrong to hasten his departure from his former church, it was behind closed doors and no one knew about it. NO ONE to this day has ever shared of anything slightly unbiblical that he may have done to quicken his departure.
The whole thing is deeply concerning to me on many levels. As for asking Trevor (Haynes, that is, Freedom Fighter:)), this is a very delicate topic. If the opportunity arises, I suppose we will. I don’t know that we will ever get that chance, though.
Another former pastor, JH, who ”moved on” from TH’s same former church, we heard was recently also let go for “financial reasons”. He left and then was given the boot several years later from his new SG church. Financial reasons, really?? SG has some serious financial issues then.
Some men being invited to the PC are now thinking twice and are cautious b/c they feel like the same could be done to them later on.
Talk about unhealthy polity.
Thank you! Guess I was already gone before he came. I didn’t know him. The men who were pastors in Chesapeake way back in the dark ages when I went to church there, I loved dearly. I don’t know if it was reciprocated or not. If my ignored Facebook friend requests are any indication, I’m guessing not. But we continue to pray! Not just because we love them and have missed them, but because we want victory for Jesus, not the enemy, in all this. I know He WILL overcome the enemy, but how long must these things go on before that happens? The sincere ones must play the game right or be let go as “not a good fit.” And their livelihoods depend on hanging onto their jobs. It’s a risky venture. I will be praying, praying, praying for these folks!!!
‘…no longer had the grace to serve as pastor…” Ugh. “MY GRACE IS SUFFICIENT” said the Lord.
A pastor left our church (his choice). The meeting/announcement made it look like he was too impatient to wait for God’s timing (i.e. his fault). After some digging, we found out he really left because he couldn’t abide the controlling, Holy Spirit squashing, micromanagement any more. But he took the fall. Bless him, at least he’s free now.
First degifting, now degracing. What next? Desalvationing or perhaps we should be questioning the ability of he who does not impart said gifts to decide who is gifted, graced, or saved.
Actually DB, you are not far off. If your Christianity doesn’t look like SGM Christianity, many there question if you are really saved or not.
DB and Fred— Isn’t it amazing how SGM coins their own phrases,like, “no longer had the grace to serve as pastor” to remove one of their own who has “stood in the very stead of God” and is (was) “the 1st among equals”???!! Their nebulous definitions attempting to come off as “Biblical” — are MAN CREATED. Do they know how utterly ridiculous they sound? Their nebulous man-created speech invites the ‘shifting shadows’ and deceptions to prevail and counterfeit as truth. Scripture warns us about the danger of deception.
Their polity attempt to create a stepfordite/cookie-cutter denomination/family of churches usurps the place of the Holy Spirit. As Fred states, they even have been known to accuse the Brethren of not truly being saved. Control, manipulation, and how they want to appear is of utmost importance.———Which reminds me, we are into January and the KingsWay congregants will receive another visit from Peacemakers soon. GE will continue to mentor and emulate to all SGM pastors and leadership how to …control,manipulate and deflect responsibility when they have SCRIPTURALLY disqualified themself to pastor/lead their flock. Another example of SGM Polity counterfeiting clear scriptural edicts.
Now I am scared. My daughter just “discovered” this church and is still in that “honeymoon phase”. How do I approach her about all I have just read?
First, pray. But then, trust that the Lord will give you an opportunity to speak. If it helps, I am a friend of Esther’s and can attest to her character and the truth of all that happened. Those involved in her defense were some of the most godly people I think I’ve ever met or been privileged to call friends. Your daughter might like New Life Providence or if she likes small churches, The Vineyard Christian Fellowship in Chesapeake. I love that church to pieces! But it’s small.
I do not want to alienate my daughter. She feels the young men are very respectful of her and I know that is extremely important to her. She was raised as a Catholic, but none of us praticed for years. I have been on the receiving end of Christians who declared they could do what they wanted to me because they were “forgiven”. I have always told my children, I am the most imperfect person I know. I claim to be nothing. My relationship with God is personal and I pray continually from the time I get up till the time I go to bed. My worst fear is that my daughter will get in too deep and instead of realizing the mistake, she will suck it up and keep going. Normally, she is very level-headed. Her sister actually has a masters in Religious Studies, but is abroad at the moment. I am waiting for her reply. I am a little confused by some of what I read because the author seemed purposely vague (totally understandable). Were crimes actually committed and was anyone ever held accountable? Should I ask my daughter if these “doctrines” are still being taught in new member classes? Out of all my children, she is the one I least expected to be sucked in. Thank you for your kind reply and suggestions. I may actually check them out myself.
LB, if it’s any comfort, most people that are sucked into cults or cultish things are of above average intelligence and education. They are often insightful enough to be disillusioned by the world’s standards and desire to look for alternative ways of living life.
So you done good raising this girl!
The men seem very resepectful. But one thing I had to learn is that there is a difference between treating someone as a respected peer and treating someone as an object one puts up on a pedestal. People often think that being treated as an object on a pedestal sounds pretty good, but in the long run, you’re still being treated as an object. Objects are always lower than people at the end of the day. I pray that if this is part of her draw to SGM, that she sees this in the light of God’s view very soon.
Stunned, I just love the ‘pictures’ you paint with your words — so clear…
LB, thankyou for writing, we understand your concern for your daughter..to the above suggestions, may I add…remind her how much you love her …and be there for her…
The young people in SGM and SGC have been trained to be respectful and mannerly—attributes which are welcome in the culture we live in. …..We can pray your daughter will become highly sensitive to the ‘checks’ of the Holy Spirit and the promptings the Lord swiftly sends us when ‘something’ is amiss we cannot quite tangibly define.
Praying the love of God will strengthen and uphold you and your household…………
LB-
Flattery is intoxicating…many of us were drunk on it before we woke to the ugly reality that is SGM.
The other problem is that there are others along for the ride. These are all college students. It seems like there has been some “positioning” among the females. If I give just first initials, would you be likely to know who I am speaking of? The guys I have heard her speak of is “G”, “C” “A” (also known as “N”) along with 2 of the pastors, both mentioned above. My daughter has been to some of the homes of these guys. I used to think my other children have issues, but how do you find against the thought of finding “God”? Never thought I’d be on this sight. I never go to chat rooms. I never seek out anyone. Something just told me to click on this site. Everything for a reason. Let me tell you that I appreciate all your information and help, more than you can ever know.
LB, I feel the love and heartbeat of a parent when reading your posts. I also feel the alarm in your spirit for your daughter and let me say that you are discerning danger that is very real in SGM churches. As Waters wrote, there is trained behavior that comes across as very respectful but you cannot rely on what you see in these churches. Much of the respectful behavior that is seen is learned, rote behavior. This respectful behavior is not always the behavior that one would see behind closed doors. This is the frightening part and must be taken seriously.
There is a history throughout SGM churches including the one your daughter is now attending of abuse against women – spiritual and mental abuse by the pastors. This attitude towards women has resulted in other forms of abuse toward women, even from husbands. Much of this stems from a lack of respect toward women in general and as one poster put it, looking at women as objects. Women in SGM churches are taught a distorted form of submitting to their husbands which results in very unhealthy marriages.
Your daughter may very well tell you that things are different at the church in Chesapeake because of past events causing much needed changes. However, friends still in the church have told me that things really are not different. The culture of these churches is so embedded that it will take years to change in the best of circumstances. In the case of SGM churches, there has been no repentance from upper leadership and there has been no change in the government/polity of the churches. Therefore the very foundation of this movement is the same as it has been for years and years.
You mention that your daughter was previously Catholic. That may be one reason she is feeling comfortable there. The pastors believe that they are standing in the stead of God and they run the churches with an authoritarian rule. Again, some will say that this has changed in Chesapeake, however, the government/polity of the church has not changed and the pastors are still the governing elders in the church. The foundation of the church has not changed.
As someone mentioned pray, pray, pray. God has not given us a spirit of fear but of power, love and a sound mind. I am praying for you and your daughter. May God give you an open door and an opportunity to speak Truth to your daughter and may she have ears to hear and eyes to see! God bless you LB!
LB,
If you would like to discuss a completely different perspective then what you are getting here let me know and I’ll send you my email.
I suspect there are those who continue attending these churches, happily oblivious to the sort of abuses that were uncovered — quick to dismiss them and equally quick to defend their pastors. I know a few families who are precious, amazing lovers of Jesus who would defend their beloved church to the end. Until you question something or for some reason, your head is raised above the radar, you will be treated with dignity and pleasant friendship. It even seems impossible to believe any of these things could have taken place. In fact, it was shocking to those who stumbled upon Esther as she quietly dealt with being punished as the victim of abuse. Such a crazy web of confusion! Once you get over the initial shock at being exposed and convicted of crimes you didn’t commit, the rest falls neatly into place and you can’t believe you ever fell for it. I can’t think of a better orchestrated snare, but then the enemy of our souls has been at this for much longer than I’ve been alive.
LB,
Since your daughter is new at the Chesapeake church this is a perfect time for asking questions.
If she is just there for the social aspects of the church then these questions will be of no interest to her. If, however, she truly wants to understand what Sovereign Grace Ministries and the Chesapeake church are all about and she is seeking a closer walk with our Savior then she may want to pose these questions to a pastor there. Much will be revealed by the answers; that is, if the pastor has the integrity and courage to answer the questions directly and clearly………..
Questions to ask your Chesapeake Sovereign Grace Ministries (SGM) pastor……
1. Who are you accountable to?
2. Who determines your salary?
3. Who can fire you?
4. How does SGM view the Holy Spirit?
5. How does SGM view gifts of the Holy Spirit?
6. Whose name is on the deed for the church building?
7. How do you view marital separation in light of an abusive marriage?
8. Is there ever a valid reason for marital separation?
9. What is required of a person to be baptized?
10. How do you view dating?
11. What is your theological and educational background?
12. Have you been to a seminary? How long was it?
13. Do members of the church have a right to question the pastor on issues of doctrine, finances, personal behavior? If so, how would that be accomplished? Who would oversee that process?
14. How do you view Satan and his current activity in this world?
15. What is your position in relationship to church members and God?
16. What other local churches is this church involved with? In what ministries?
17. How do you view Christian ministries such as Campus Crusade for Christ, The Gideons, Promise Keepers, Joyce Meyer, etc ? Does the church support any of these ministries?
18. How can I become a foreign missionary? How will the church support me in this?
19. How can I become a lay leader in this church?
20. How do you view married women working outside the home? Does your wife work outside the home? Do any of the pastor’s wives work outside the home?
21. How do you view public school?
22. Where do your children go to school?
23. Of last year’s high school graduates from the church how many are in a 4 year college or university? How many are in the military? How many are in a trade?
24. What is the “Missions Fund”? What missions do those funds support?
25. Who are the elders in this church?
26. Are there any elected elders in this church?
For the pastors at Chesapeake………you may want to start preparing your answers …….somebody may be asking you soon.
So many questions…….. so little time.
N.S.L.B.
Alas, Quizzler, my expectation for DIRECT and CLEAR pastoral answers for these most excellent questions is… next to nada.
Camouflage and deflections enshrouds their SGM language.
Quizzler,
I thought about many of these same questions. It will have to be her father who plants some seeds in her mind. I am afraid that if push comes to shove, she might be encouraged to disengage from her family. Because we knew nothing about this church, we are in a position to see both sides and not be accused of disobedience by giving her our guidance and counsel. I am going to look through the questions again carefully. In the meantime, I would like to ask for prayers for my son-in-law’s father. He is in his last stages of cancer and I would like his passing to be as painless as possible. Thank you all.
Oh, how awful, LB. I’m so sorry for what your family is suffering. Yes, I will be praying for a painless period for him.
Stunned
Great questions Quizzler but I must agree with Waters! One may ask the questions but with no guarantee of honest answers. Yes indeed – camouflage and deflections are sadly the norm and the pattern!
LB, I will be praying for your son in law’s father! May he have a peaceful passing into our Savior’s arms!
Wow. Quizzler, amazingly discerning questions.
SGM pastors, might want to get answers redy.
Does anyone think that the church would try to convince my daughter to severe ties with her family if we bring up these matters with her? Would they try to convince her that since we aren’t with the church, that we are bad and evil? Even now, I feel I can’t talk to her about this because I already feel that she would think I am trying to take something from her. She definitely won’t listen to her sister. My only hope is her father making inroads with her. People are often so amazed that with all the different religions in this house that we’ve stayed an intact family for so long! Thank you again for your prayers and if I am not imposing too much, my granddaughter is also dealing with terminal brain cancer. So prayers for her are always welcome.
LB,
Joining with the other Refugers’ in praying for your soninlaws father
And for the Lords continued guidance for your daughter and your familys’ interractions
LB — I have never known anyone in SGM who was officially told to sever ties with family simply because they were not part of the church – someone else may know of such examples. The pressure to consider your church family more important was, in my experience, not expressly stated, but was made apparent by the expectation that you would attend every meeting, show up for homegroup, etc., leaving most people very little time to maintain other relationships. In my own case, my extended family was in another state. Anytime I left town to go care for them, I was told I was doing the right thing, encouraged to do so and cheerfully, uh, “released” from Sunday duties. I hope that helps.
Others will probably disagree with this suggestion, but if you haven’t visited the church, I’d suggest going with her one Sunday. — with eyes wide open. You can see and hear for yourself – the Holy Spirit will guide you.
One caution LB if you do attend church with your daughter: the outward appearance of SGM churches and church “family” most often look perfect. Things are done in an excellent way and people appear to be doing well. You have already been told that the men are very respectful of your daughter and yet women are pretty much thought of as second class citizens throughout SGM land. In another thread, Waters spoke of Jesus calling the pharisees white washed tombs. This is what I am talking about. Things look great on the outside but it is what is unseen, on the inside that is of great concern. There is a very deceptive spirit involved with SGM and I warn you to be very careful that you are not pulled in by the deception and outward behaviors that you may see when visiting an SGM church.
LB, I’ve been a member of SGC for many years and know all the pastors quite well. Like WF, I’d love to give you a completely different persepective on the church than the good folks on this blog. I’m not willing to do thate here–I’ve tried to give a different perspective before and, well, it wasn’t received well.
I almost never visit here, in fact, but on a whim (perhaps the Holy Spirit?) popped in today and saw your posts and their replies. I had to say something. The folks here are well-intentioned, I am sure, but their perspective on SGC is not accurate.
If you don’t want to e-mail me (barbaricyawp43@gmail.com), I understand, but please do what the last few posters recommended: visit the church (with your husband) and ask all the questions Quizzler listed of a pastor. Your daughter is in no danger, and no one will seek to persuade your daughter that you are bad or evil.
LB,
How very interesting… You are being presented with two opposing viewpoints in this forum. Since you are seeking information about this “family of churches”, I’d like to recommend that you visit The Wartburg Watch (http://www.thewartburgwatch.com), which my friend Dee and I maintain. We have written quite a few articles on Sovereign Grace Ministries, which you can access through our Categories section. Of course, you’re welcome to post comments there as well.
The primary focus of our blog is spiritual abuse, not just in SGM but across the board. I think you will find it to be a valuable resource.
If you’re not familiar with the term “Love Bombing”, I’d recommend that you Google it and see what it means. I believe you are witnessing this technique here at SGM Refuge.
Blessings to you in your pursuit of God’s truth.
Deb,
In your opinion, who is doing the love bombing here?
Jim,
I’m hoping LB will be able to figure that out on her own. Amway distributors have been using the Love Bombing strategy for years. It’s an effective technique used by those who are trying to sell something. As far as I can tell, nothing’s for sale here at SGM Refuge…
I’ve been out of SGC Chesapeake since before it moved to Chesapeake, which is a very long time. I was surprised to hear what happened to “Esther” because I had hoped to see change long before now. I still have dear friends there and I want to see them find freedom from the constant talk of indwelling sin, progressive sanctification, etc. that was so prevalent when I went there years ago. You don’t see enough of that in “emergent” churches these days, but at SGM you see TOO much, in my opinion.
Barbaric, I’ve been away for a long time, too. This message from LB popped into my email inbox because I checked the box to notify me of a reply back when you and I were here last. I know you have been there for a long time and have seen people come and go. It isn’t always blatantly obvious why. Shortly before we left, I had an experience that was sort of typical of the type of thing we’re talking about here. A couple of friends of mine and I started a Bible study that met at each of our houses — sort of revolved locations every third week. We did this so we could invite each of our neighbors and pray for them and minister to them every three weeks. We had an Italian lunch one time, Mexican the next. It was fun and at the same time we were able to reach out and comfort our neighbors and pray for them. This was all women, by the way. They were going through some difficult trials and needed our support. They were very grateful.
When the Care Group leader and pastors found out we were doing this — three women of the church — they asked us to stop and we were told that if we had wanted a Bible study we should have asked the Care Group leader’s wife. She would have been happy to lead one for us. Which she did within a couple of weeks. Instead of studying the Bible, though, we read through a book written by an approved author from SGM.
I am all for making sure we have a spiritual “covering” but the Lord was really blessing these Bible studies we were having. And I’m sure our neighbors wondered why we suddenly had to stop meeting. I have a Master’s in Theology, and nowhere in my studies did I come across a scripture that said I couldn’t have my neighbors over to pray for them. I could be wrong about that, but I don’t think so. There was an overemphasis on authority, covering, submission, and indwelling sin at the church back when I went there. Eventually we realized it just wasn’t the place for us. It was too intrusive. Lots of accountability groups, confession groups, that type thing. Very little fellowship with anyone outside the church. There just wasn’t time! And not a whole lot of joy. If that is no longer the case, I’d love to hear of some concrete examples. Some proof that things have changed. Really and truly! I want to know. It would make me so happy.
I harbor no ill will against anyone, and the Care Group leaders from back then are still close friends of mine. They know there were excesses and there was immaturity. I thought we had all learned a lot and grown past these things until I heard about Esther. I have no explanation for what happened to her. Punishing the victim seems to be a problem in these churches for some reason, and I don’t know why.
I choose not to hide my identity here. I think it keeps me from saying anything I wouldn’t say to my old friends. And I am totally open to being proven wrong. I look forward to the day that happens with great joy!!!
Barbaric, Don’t know if you will read this or not since you don’t often visit the blog, but I am just wondering, what will you tell LB? Will you tell her about the women that were threatened with church discipline if they didn’t return to their abusive or adulterous husbands (and we know that there were many more than 3). Will you tell her about Esther’s story? Will you tell her that women were commanded by the pastors to return to their adulterous husband’s beds within weeks of finding that the husbands were committing adultery? Will you tell her the story of the woman from the Denver church and her history with your church? Will you tell her about the other stories of abuse that you personally know about including stories involving single woman? Will you tell her that in each of these cases the women were confronted over and over with their own sin and not their hurt, pain, and woundedness? Will you tell her about the “3″ couples and all the others who have since left your church? Will you tell her why they all left? Will you, BY? Will you? Oh, but things have changed haven’t they? None of this could possibly happen again, right? And why not Barbaric? The polity/government of the church hasn’t changed and the upper leadership has not repented. No, just recently CJ was comparing his current situation of receiving criticism as to Calvin. From what many of us hear, the culture has not changed in your church has not changed. Also, one of the most emotionally and spiritually abusive pastors is still on your churches staff. So, please tell us, how can anyone be sure that none of this can or will ever happen again?
Thanks Deb. I wasn’t sure how to read what you were saying.
BarbYawp has posted his email here five times, always wanting to take the conversation offline. Poor guy can’t make his case in public without being met with cries of “Not true” from his former church members. He still thinks the 1-2-3 combo aimed at the three couples was a coincidence, and defends the attack.
Fred, I know who you are talking about from Denver, and I know Esther. While I have watched the Lord breathe strength, humility, mercy, and beauty (for ashes) into their lives throughout the trials they went through at the hands of their pastors, I am still shocked that any of it happened at all. There is plenty of scriptural admonition against such beating of the sheep. And what happened to strengthening the feeble knees as in Isaiah 35?
BY, what have the pastors told you is the reason they tried to force Esther to stay with her abusive husband or face excommunication? And why didn’t they go after HIM, pursue him with all diligence as an erring brother? Why focus on Esther and her sin of lack of submission rather than her husband’s abuse? I am not trying to back you into a corner but to get answers. Do you believe they did the right thing? And was the secret church leadership meeting to “discuss” the problem of the three couples who were standing behind Esther appropriate? Did they ever apologize for any of this and admit they were all wrong? How did reconciliation take place? We don’t always hear about these things when/if they occur, here at SGM Refuge, but I’d love to. It would be such a relief to discover it’s all been covered by the blood of Jesus, forgiveness has washed over all parties involved, and true fellowship restored. But my friends still attend a different church, so I don’t think that has happened. Not yet, anyway.
I love and respect you, BY. And one of my two Bible study friends chose to stay in the church. I love her with all my heart, too! I don’t quite understand it, though…
I see you point, Jim, but it IS easier to talk offline. You can mention names and invite the person out for coffee. I get that part of it.
The thing is, all BY and others can say here is that these are men of integrity that they’ve known for a long time and things are not as we’re portraying them here. But if that’s true, I’d like to read about it here and I’d like for KB to come on here and explain how he was deceived into believing what he was doing to Esther was right and how he has since repented after the Holy Spirit convicted him and how things are all different now and all is reconciled. That can’t happen because it isn’t yet true. Even if it’s in process, it would bring such joy to us here to know that. Because some of us have been through soooo much at the hands of this denomination. Not me, but others. It IS a tight-knit community. I think that’s why people stay despite the things that have happened in their midst. They can’t imagine leaving their lifelong friends that they’ve been through thick and thin with — until they’re the ones under the microscope and they suddenly have no choice but to leave or be disciplined for something they really and truly did not do. The most alarming part, to me, is how this must grieve the Holy Spirit. He still blesses, comforts, and showers us with love, warts and all, perpetrators of error and non. But I don’t want to be the reason our Lord weeps. Back to the prayer closet for me!
“The polity/government of the church has not changed and the upper leadership has not repented.” —- thankyou for the foundational FACTS, Fred.
And in the continuing saga of the SGM leaderships responses to the revealing of manipulative authoritarian mauling leadership polity:
Ceej (on his blog) quietly and with all (sniff sniff) ‘humility’, states he is “embarassed” to be naming HIMSELf in the same category as Calvin — because of all those roiling critics!!!!!!!
So now……… the bigdog head of SGM is the ‘victim’!!??!
Vicitm of….revelation of facts that the SGM polity and pastors have been charged time after time, years after years , with abusive controling tactics of the Brethren!!!!???!!
Amazing!
And yet, the abused women crying out for help were charged with the sin of selfishness and rebellion against pastoral mandates (stay with abusive husband, obey pastors..)
Pleas for help from apostolic leaders (now Regional Overseers) were met with,”go to your pastor and listen to him and do as he says.”
LB, When there was a meeting at Cheapeake during the Esther story, one of the men of the 3 couples stood to defend their convictions. He was a 20plus year member, respected caregroup leader and a man almost 60 years old. Two ‘younger’ men in that meeting
(also long time respected members) mocked him and called out “sit down, old man”
Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks — No respect and certainly no desire to HEAR what was going horribly wrong in their church.
(Both Gene Emerson and KB were presiding at this meeting)— So if your husband talks with these people, know there is a ‘respectful’ learned stance of the peoples—but they are blind and choose not to listen to the gravity of the grievous dangerous activity which goes on behind closed doors of pastoral ‘counseling’, and the consequences of polluted SGM polity.
CJ’s blog PROVES there is no change—for now, he is taking on the character of the poor little pastor whom people are bringing charges against. He now sees himself as a victim!
And how CJ responds is exactly how the pastoral leadership chain will, and are, responding.
SGM continues to shoot the Watchmen on the Walls
And now, the abusers are the victims
Saints, we must see beyond the whitewashes and cry out for Gods Truth and Light
Deception began in the Garden — it ain’t no new tactic
What a shame, people slandering a church that holds a different view than what you believe. Half of the people here slamming the church, probably havent visited it after this event happened. Churches make mistakes and are in no way perfect, but that doesnt mean they cant change. You cant believe all you hear, just like this article can only be taken as half truths. The articles going to lean towards hurt, and its amazes me to see people still slander a church after 2 years. Ever since I’ve been going there, nothing leads me to believe they havent changed under EH leadership, and have never seen their “deceptive ways”. Come on now, Jesus called out churches for false propheting, but never went to these lengths. I just want the people who talk against the church and their teachings to speak out about their recent experiences, and not just what they have read through this site. Cause as they make mistakes, you shouldnt speak out until you have experienced it for yourself, changed, and make your own opinion.
Waters said, “LB, When there was a meeting at Cheapeake during the Esther story, one of the men of the 3 couples stood to defend their convictions. He was a 20plus year member, respected caregroup leader and a man almost 60 years old. Two ‘younger’ men in that meeting (also long time respected members) mocked him and called out “sit down, old man”
Waters, this is so horrific. Reminds me of the children who came out and mocked the prophet in the OT.
CS, you know how we’ll know that they have repented? They will repent.
When they come to each and everyone that they have harmed (even to the least of these) and repented, then we’ll know. It’s not really a hard thing to figure out.
Stunned,
SGM sets the environment, whether they realize it or not, for their own congregants to often respond in retaliatory manner. (Thus there is also the shunnings and ‘misrepresentation’ of former congregants)
As you state, we will know they have repented— when they repent.
CS, I haven’t visited the church since Esther’s situation occurred, but I went to lunch with two of the three couples, prayed with one of the couples both in person and over the phone (we live six hours away), and the other couple were actually mentors of ours. Their children babysat our children. We know these families very well. They are wonderful, godly men and women who only wanted to help a woman in distress and were mocked and ostracized for it. Last I heard, one of the couples stayed in the church. They are all trying very hard to walk in a godly manner but still defend the defenseless against a really insidious polity that is very damaging. I know EH. He was just a teenager when we went to church there, but I hear he’s a wonderful pastor and I have been praying for him. We are not a bunch of whiners here, nor are we bitter troublemakers. We’re grieved by what has been happening and until we found out about this blog, we thought we were the only ones who had been injured. Now that we see a pattern and in many different churches, we can’t in good conscience do nothing. We love these families! We want to see transparency, reconciliation, and restoration. That’s my prayer.
Well said, Freedom Fighter……..
I believe all of the 3 Couples no longer attend SGChesapeake
There is much prayer for the Chesapeake church and EH
And, as you state, we too, cannot in good conscience be silent
–The ongoing pattern of destructive SGMPolity is continuing,
therefore the abuses will continue to be brought into the light
–praying SGM will SEE Repent, and Renounce their destructive deeds
CS you stated: “What a shame, people slandering a church that holds a different view than what you believe.” You really have it all wrong CS. This is not at all about a church holding a different view than what people on the blog believe. This is about a whole movement of churches that got way off through wrong doctrine and abusive and controlling behaviors toward God’s people. Have you read the blogs and know the stories? Do you know what happened in the Chesapeake church, the Denver Church, Fairfax, Richmond, Orlando, etc? Please tell me, how can you believe that this is about people holding a different view when this is all about spiritual abuse, control, manipulation, wrong doctrine, etc?
Freedom Fighter, so well put! Thank you for expressing what many of us can not.
I truly believe that if the leaders of SGM realized what they had done, repented, and made real changes such as changing their polity, folks on these blogs would celebrate and be very thankful. Unfortunately, after reading CJ’s recent blog comparing his situation with recent criticism to Calvin’s situation,I don’t think that will happen. As Waters stated, the abuser has now positioned himself as the victim. What starts at the top flows down through the lower leadership. They have dug in their heels!
But again, you all are all speaking out of things you hear. Until you’ve gone yourself after theyve made changes, how can you still dwell on the past. Over 2 years, God can change a church drastically in 2 years, and even if you talk to people that still go, thats still word of mouth. All I’m saying, is that experience the church after the event for yourself and not keep dwelling on the past and listening to others.
(Luke 6:35-37 NIV) But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful. “Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.
CS-
So 2 year old sins are past the statute of limitations for public repentance….Gosh, somebody should’ve told poor Gene Emerson before he had to admit to lying about another man’s character and displaying his own lack of it…seems that after 2 years, the whole thing should’ve been forgotten and not spoken of…..thanks for setting us all straight CS.
CS, maybe you missed what I said. We will know they have repented when they repent “to the least of these”. It is incumbent upon them to go to each and every person they have harmed. This is no mystery to them. There are many they have harmed yet they have not gone to each of them yet. Once they have done so, then they will have begun this change you speak of. Until then, it’s neither significant, nor real repentance.
Matthew 5:23-24 “Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother or sister has something against you, leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to them; then come and offer your gift.”
CS,
Rebuilding and making changes and updates is a positive endeavor.
However, if one chooses to rebuild and make changes and updates atop a
garbage heap — how strong is the foundation?? Even if the garbage heap is covered up and cosmetically improved and appealing (like “Mt Trashmore” in VA Beach), we all know the garbage heap is underneath.
For Chesapeake to rebuild and make changes on a strong foundation, the cracked foundations must be excavated, or all that is rebuilt upon it will be shifting sands.
One serious excavation for Chesapeake leadership would be to publically repent
(serious, genuinely) to the 3 Couples who were advocates for abused and maligned women at the hands of KB and BC. Gene Emerson, KB, and BC and EH have all allowed the maligning of their names (the 3 Couples) to remain as– “enemies of the church”!
This is a LIE your church continues to rebuild upon.
A lie is not an attribute of our Lord, correct? Lies are assaults to hinder and stop truth.
There are pollutant toxins of deceptions and manipulations seeping through the cracks of the foundation in Sovereign Grace Church of Chesapeake.
The remedy? Sorrowful repentance. Choosing God above man and polity.
Humility that falls on its knees and cries out for strength and courage to embrace Truth at all cost—because…Jesus IS Truth …and we are to follow Him as Lord.
One cannot arrive at step 5 until 1,2,3, and 4 etc have solidly taken place.
Chesapeake is still at ground zero,scurrying to rebuild upon toxic deceptions,
under the SGM Polity Contractors, Inc.
It is grievous, grievous to watch.
CS……….
Maybe you (or BarbaricYawp) would care to answer these questions and let the sheep, reading here, determine for themselves if things in Chesapeake have changed or not…..that is if you are high enough on the food chain to know the answers.
Questions to ask your Chesapeake Sovereign Grace Ministries (SGM) pastor……
1. Who are you accountable to?
2. Who determines your salary?
3. Who can fire you?
4. How does SGM view the Holy Spirit?
5. How does SGM view gifts of the Holy Spirit?
6. Whose name is on the deed for the church building?
7. How do you view marital separation in light of an abusive marriage?
8. Is there ever a valid reason for marital separation?
9. What is required of a person to be baptized?
10. How do you view dating?
11. What is your theological and educational background?
12. Have you been to a seminary? How long was it?
13. Do members of the church have a right to question the pastor on issues of doctrine, finances, personal behavior? If so, how would that be accomplished? Who would oversee that process?
14. How do you view Satan and his current activity in this world?
15. What is your position in relationship to church members and God?
16. What other local churches is this church involved with? In what ministries?
17. How do you view Christian ministries such as Campus Crusade for Christ, The Gideons, Promise Keepers, Joyce Meyer, etc ? Does the church support any of these ministries?
18. How can I become a foreign missionary? How will the church support me in this?
19. How can I become a lay leader in this church?
20. How do you view married women working outside the home? Does your wife work outside the home? Do any of the pastor’s wives work outside the home?
21. How do you view public school?
22. Where do your children go to school?
23. Of last year’s high school graduates from the church how many are in a 4 year college or university? How many are in the military? How many are in a trade?
24. What is the “Missions Fund”? What missions do those funds support?
25. Who are the elders in this church?
26. Are there any elected elders in this church?
……….and while you’re at it maybe you could address the amount of church funds currently allocated to benevolence. Seems that that was a “problem” two years ago as well.
N.S.L.B.
“Two ‘younger’ men in that meeting
(also long time respected members) mocked him and called out “sit down, old man” ”
I’m with Stunned. I am appalled that this kind of behavior was going on in that meeting- it wasn’t even hidden. “Out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks.” indeed. Unbelievable.
Ellie and Stunned,
The leadership in these meetings (G Emerson,KB and BC) positioned themselves as the “victims” of charges brought against them (much like CJ is blogging about currently).
Oddly, charges of allowing and propagating abuse is against the laws of our land—but not the courts of SGM.—SGM continues to hold ‘meeeeeeetings’ whenever there is an exposed upheaval. Duplicity and deceptions and deflections then incite the congregants. The congregants react to “protecting” their church. They mock and malign those who are advocates of truth and rightousness.
Yes, Ellie, it IS appalling….
The ‘fruit’ is quite visible and clear— for those who have eyes to see and ears to hear…
CS, E-mail me, please.
Cuz yer opening up their big can of worms, CS
It’s true that the “fruit” you’re speaking of — and it was monstrous — occurred two years ago or so. I don’t remember the exact dates. That being the case, we would love to get an update on how things are going now. I know CJ is still not repentant or maybe he just doesn’t realize the seriousness of what he’s done yet. There have been times when I didn’t realize how inappropriately I was behaving or the impact of what I was saying. When that happens, you have to do something really difficult and that is admit that you were wrong, repent, and change course. It hurts like heck and it’s embarrassing! But it’s the right thing to do.
In the case of SGM, I think they’re pretty darned committed to Calvinism. Calvin was a brilliant man, highly intelligent, and sharp. The thing is, when you take progressive sanctification and predestination to an extreme, you get the sorts of abuses we’ve seen in SGM churches over the years. I am not a Calvinist. I believe God is fully capable of running my life and I trust Him to it, but I also believe it’s a fluid, changeable course because fallible man rebels against God’s plan and gets in the way of my smooth path. So God changes the plan! His plans are all always for good, not evil. He made sure we knew that. But back to Calvinism. I am not a Calvinist, but I’ve seen healthy PCA churches that are sweet havens of peace and love. They foster courage under trial and encourage joyful obedience to a God you can count on and trust, not just hatred of self over the doctrine of sin. I didn’t see that peace and joy back when I attended SGC. It was hard work! You had that constant fear that you weren’t raising your kids well unless they displayed politeness, looked people in the eye and greeted them, always said yes, ma’am, and never got grumpy or irritable. If God demanded that of me, I’d crumble to pieces under the burden.
That doesn’t mean things haven’t changed, though. I’m sure as time goes on and more people leave, change will come and may already have to a certain extent. As God showers me with grace, I want to shower them with it as well. I just don’t want anyone else to get hurt. We really do see through a glass dimly, and I am not in a position to cast the first stone, that’s for sure.
I hope current members of SGM churches feel they can come here and share the good that is happening as a result of all the brokenness. I’d sure like to hear about it. And if things are NOT different, I’d like to know that, too, so we can keep praying until we see change. It could be just around the next corner, you know?
I’d love to chat with you too, Waters.
Yes, Freedom Fighter, we are praying for changes of redemptions to come–
Needless to say, through the gates of Truth and no shifting shadows…..
Let us not build on sand …but on the solid Rock (per Matt 7:26)
BY, I simply do not, presently, chat with SGM long-timers or leaders. Trust has been broken by various pastors and apostolic leaders. Alarmingly so. I cannot trust because of the deep deceptive spirit which assaulted our family—and we still see happening to this day. Perhaps when we see evidences of excavations within SGM, trust will begin…
Until then, I am staying close to my Shepherd and His Voice, apart from any SGM voice.
barbyawp,
I asked you to call me over a year ago. You were not interested, yet you want everyone on here to email you. I don’t get it….
I’m still at 321-five-zero-four-4542
It’s about control of venue….a common tactic of abusive relationships is when one party insists on conversing in the location of their choosing. They will refuse to converse outside of those boundaries to try and minimize conversation from going off script. BY says it’s fruitless to post here because his info is not “received well”-but from my perspective BY just doesn’t want to do the hard work of defending his views. So email him if you want to…but I’d be leery as to why he comes on a public forum, criticizes our conclusions publicly, but insists on private communication for anyone who wants to hear “the other side of the story”….is there a secret password too?
The old control of venue tactic. You’re on to me, musicman.
I’m happy to “do the hard work of defending my views,” I’d just prefer to do it one-on-one with someon actually interested in hearing them. If you’re not, no sweat. Just an invitation. I inevitably stir up a good bit of antipathy here and it causes me too much anxiety.
Waters, your recollection of that meeting and what I said to TK is incorrect, and I was hoping to set the record straight. No problem though.
So set it straight….I’m interested in your views. Jim said he’s willing to have a one on one conversation, why not take him up. I’ve seen Jim retract before, what do you have to lose?
Hi BY! You said, “Waters, your recollection of that meeting and what I said to TK is incorrect, and I was hoping to set the record straight.”
BY, I’m sorry but I am not clear what it is you are referring to. I went back and read through the things that Waters said and couldn’t find any reference that Waters made about what you said to anyone. (I may be looking right past it.) Would you please repost what it was that Waters said you said so that I could follow this discussion?
Thank you very much.
Stunned
It may be a little intimidating and even sort of frightening to speak at the podium here, when defending an erring denomination in front of a hundred or more of its detractors. I can see where BY would prefer talking privately. I’ve spoken to BY privately before. BY is a reasonable, godly person who believes in these pastors, loves them, prays for them. BY is a good friend of many of my lifelong friends, though I’ve never been super close to BY (age difference, mostly). I know there’s deception going on — the enemy of our souls has long been at work twisting doctrine to entangle God’s beloved in arguments ending in despair. As a writer, I have seen disputes arise online over inflections that weren’t even in the person’s online “voice.” But truthfully, we’re all on the same side against a common enemy. We’re fighting FOR BY and his SGM family, not against them. Does that make sense at all?
Suppose BY were to take our list of questions to EH and discuss a bit of this with him and get back to us? If there is a way to bring reconciliation and release a congregation and even a denomination from deception and see them walk in freedom through deliverance, I’d be thrilled to see it. I’d drive my six hours up there and meet with these two in person if that would help. I hate seeing people ensnared by the enemy and taken captive at his will. It disgusts me. I realize God is over all, but these are the things that keep me up at night.
And I was just thinking about that foundation issue — because we have a foundation problem in our house right now. It’s caused a huge zigzagging crack down the middle of our living room wall and separation at both corners of about an inch, just enough to let us know we’d better take a look outside at that muddy spot at the corner of the house and clamp it, an expensive endeavor but necessary to avoid further ripping apart of the wall. We don’t want to tear apart SGM or see its downfall as much as we want to reform it, to fix it, like Calvin, Luther, and Zwingli at first wanted to reform the Catholic church. We want to see the beloved church whole. But at the same time, we don’t want people harmed by it anymore. Left as is, that might well be the case. Or maybe they aren’t being harmed any more. Has anything new come up recently? Besides CJ blowing off steam about being persecuted? He may blog publicly a certain way but privately institute changes we can’t see here, having left the church. It’s a long shot, but Jesus is King of the long shot and champion of the underdog.
Praying for you all!
First time to post after reading here for some time plus over at Survivors. I am overwhelmed with grief reading all the stories of spiritual abuse. As a member of CLC for 3 decades, I suspect I know some of you personally. I am greatly saddened hearing how people have been hurt and betrayed by shepherds who claim they were looking after our souls. It also grieves me how systemic the problem is across a multitude of SGM churches and how blind those in the bubble seem to remain. I know firsthand about the abuse because I, too, experienced it, and after working through it for many years to the point I have forgiven the pastor and CGLs, it is still painful to discuss. Reading here has helped me understand what happened and I am grateful beyond words to those who have shared on these blogs. I feel like I’ve been in a daze for many, many years but am now seeing the blue sky above as God continues to open my eyes to the truth and gives me hope for life beyond. I’ve also been shaken to the core for my own part in grieving the Holy Spirit and possibly hurting others.
Maybe one day I’ll have the courage to share my story but what prompted me to write today was the comment by CS who tried to discount the others by saying “you all are all speaking out of things you hear. Until you’ve gone yourself after theyve made changes, how can you still dwell on the past. Over 2 years, God can change a church drastically in 2 years, and even if you talk to people that still go, thats still word of mouth.” CS, as you read these blogs you will see the patterns of abuse are the same across SGM and not just at the church in Chesapeake. I am a current member of an SGM church, in fact, at the very flagship of CLC. If the situation at Chesapeake has ‘drastically’ changed in the last 2 years you would think similar changes would have occurred in other SGM churches, too. I wish you could help me understand why haven’t the pastors sought out all those whom they hurt so badly to ask forgiveness, current as well as former members? And when those who have been hurt do step out to try to talk about it, why is it still so often only about our sin and not theirs? Josh’s soirees at CLC are a start but the jury is still out on that. Although there are some positive steps, I’m not sure I see the ‘drastic’ changes you are talking about. You can forgive me for being wary because as Waters said, “if one chooses to rebuild and make changes and updates atop a garbage heap — how strong is the foundation??” That’s it precisely, I’m afraid the very foundation has serious cracks. I don’t know what’s going to happen and cannot think about it too much because of how sad the whole SGM situation makes me.
I’m so sorry, Blue Sky. We only experienced a couple of years of it before leaving. I can’t imagine the grief you’re experiencing after decades. But many people here can. You’re not alone! And there is strength in numbers. Support, encouragement, and love can be found here amidst the broken.
Blue Sky, welcome to the Refuge — and I’m so glad you’re seeing some blue sky these days.
Anne – CLC 1986-2007
Blue Sky, Welcome! Hope that you find rest and healing to your soul through the love of Jesus and the love of your fellow brethren here. May I ask one question: why are you still a member of SGM?
Barbaric Yarp or should I say _____, I can only say one word, WOW! I am amazed that you were willing to out yourself on this blog. Of course, you did this through acknowledging that you were the one who said sit down old man to ______! I for one would truly appreciate hearing your side of the story since you are saying that Waters recollection is incorrect. Others heard you say it as well so I am wondering, where is the recollection off? You spoke these words during a very serious meeting at SGCC in which a large number of people were in attendance. ______ was speaking very serious convictions and concerns from his heart at the time you and your buddy laughed at him and then you said these words. So, help us out here BY and tell us where the recollections are off.
After listening to BC’s message titled “Something to Build On” on Jan 2, 2011 on 2 Chronicles 33:1-17 (King Manasseh – Worst King Ever) and then having GE speak here two weeks later, followed by KB here a couple of weeks ago (trolling for planters for Charlottesville), I am convinced all these guys are smoking from the same hookah.
BY – I agree with Fred’s 10:31 post. You have publically initiated a conversation and it would appear to be helpful to many if it was resolved publically.
Blue Sky – Greetings. No doubt we have met, since we have both attended the same church for thirty years, though I don’t know who you are.
It appears we each have different opinions and conclusions of our experiences at CLC. This could make for an interesting discussion. But I have no desire to cause you any further pain. In fact, just the opposite. If there is anyway I can help, I would be glad to talk with you. I respect your opinions and conclusions, and would do all that I can to maintain that respect, by His grace, in all of our conversation.
Who knows what each of us would discover as we respectfully explore each of our perspectives on thirty years as members of CLC?
Respectfully, 30years
2 Corinthians 6:3-10 (Amplified Bible)
3We put no obstruction in anybody’s way [we give no offense in anything], so that no fault may be found and [our] ministry blamed and discredited.
4But we commend ourselves in every way as [true] servants of God: through great endurance, in tribulation and suffering, in hardships and privations, in sore straits and calamities,
5In beatings, imprisonments, riots, labors, sleepless watching, hunger;
6By innocence and purity, knowledge and spiritual insight, longsuffering and patience, kindness, in the Holy Spirit, in unfeigned love;
7By [speaking] the word of truth, in the power of God, with the weapons of righteousness for the right hand [to attack] and for the left hand [to defend];
8Amid honor and dishonor; in defaming and evil report and in praise and good report. [We are branded] as deceivers (impostors), and [yet vindicated as] truthful and honest.
9[We are treated] as unknown and ignored [by the world], and [yet we are] well-known and recognized [by God and His people]; as dying, and yet here we are alive; as chastened by suffering and [yet] not killed;
10As grieved and mourning, yet [we are] always rejoicing; as poor [ourselves, yet] bestowing riches on many; as having nothing, and [yet in reality] possessing all things.
I ask, where are these sort of Pastors, today? They are probably out in the world, laboring for Christ, not living in a wealthy neighborhood, maybe having no where to sleep, preaching the word to whoever will listen. I think Church today has got it all wrong. Show me a Pastor like the above scripture describes and I will support him/her…
Welcome, Blue Sky! You are among friends.
Welcome Blue Sky. i pray for your healing.
BY,
that’s so sad. How could you have talked to someone like that? And laughed about it? I really don’t know what to say.
Hi Blue Sky and 30 years…this is my first time posting on Refuge, although i’ve made a few posts on Survivors…i’m sure we all know each other…i was at CLC from 1980 until 1990 when i moved to the Pasadena, Ca church for 8 years. I can understand the feelings that you have Blue Sky as you read these posts…I too have had the same feelings and also the issue of dealing with the blindness I had to what was going on as I was “drinking the kool aid” as a CGL. welcome and may Jesus bring healing!
Welcome Blues0080! Are you still in the SGM church in CA?
Hi Fred,
Nope….I left when Che Ahn and Lou Engle did….and now I’m loving the house church I’m a part of!
Please don’t ask me any more questions or make any more appeals. It must be clear to everyone that I cannot possibly answer all that I am asked here, not to mention attempting to address the presuppositions and insinuations that come with some of the comments. I do not have the time nor the energy. I initiated nothing. I made a polite appeal to two posters here, commending the intentions of the folks on this blog. Nevertheless, I was met (by some) with obvious hostility.
Even this is against my better judgment, since my motives are suspect here and I expect my veracity will be as well, but I will make this one attempt to defend my tarnished character.
These are the facts:
1. The meeting when I spoke harshly to the member of the “three couples” was during the “reconciliation meeting” with Esther. The first meeting. Gene Emerson was not in attendance.
2. The brother spoke at length without interruption. He finished his message, which was lengthy (5-10 minutes, I guess), then sat down. I was only a few seats away in the same row.
3. Others began speaking in turn, several in support of the brother’s comments. While they were speaking, he would periodically interject further comment from his seat, which I felt was inappropriate, since he had had his turn, and others should have been given the same opportunity.
4. After several such interjections, I said to him, angrily, these exact words: “OK [his first name], we get it.” I did not yell, and only those in my vicinity heard me. In no way did I mock or laugh (I was in no laughing mood), and I certainly did not call him “old man” nor anything derogatory.
5. I have no recollection of anyone else saying anything to him aloud. I could have missed that, however. In other words, I don’t know of any second “younger” man.
6. Immediately after the meeting, I searched him out (we spoke in the parking lot–his wife was there), and asked him to forgive me for my angry outburst, admitting that I was angry and that I should not have spoken that way to him. He accepted my apology, we chatted awhile, and parted, though not in agreement, as friends.
7. I see this brother regularly (just a couple hours ago, in fact), and love him and his family dearly. We are, as far as I know, fully reconciled.
I don’t care what anyone thinks they heard or have been told about my behavior that night. I regret saying what I did, but it was nothing like how it is being characterized.
Hey BY, I hear you. I have said things and then regretted them as well. Thank you for helping me to understand what it was that you were referencing earlier. It can not be easy to come on here so I appreciate you clearing up what you were referring to.
BY, thank you for replying. My final response to you is this: there were many witnesses who would give a completely different account as to what you said at that meeting. Nevertheless I am thankful that you are completely reconciled.
Yes, completely different accounts. (And the reconciliation among brothers, is good)
SGM sets an environment, (purposefully or not?) of “us against them”.
The Happiest Place on Earth is a big glass house constructed by SGM Enterprises/Polity.
When the realities of destruction in the form of abusive pastoral counseling and the subversive tactics of manipulation and control come to light (by SGM Brethren) , the leadership of SGM retaliate with deflections etc (see Esthers Story, Noels Story, OrlandoMetro, Denvers, Phoenix, KingsWay). The SGM congregants cry “foul” when the truths of destructive practices come to light. They align against their Brethren whom God is using to expose destruction in their midst.–The 2-edged sword Jesus describes in regards to Truth —slicing right down to the marrow (where life is)– exposes.
Great courage and true humility are required to see truth, even when the ugly truth describes a beloved family member … or church.
Will we cry out for courage to hear and see Truth???
We cannot BEGIN to be healed and restored and walk in the Light as He is in the Light when we choose to whitewash or gloss over effects of man-made destructive polity,which robs Saints of spirit-filled life. If we choose to abide behind the walls that have been whitewashed, we will lose our sensitivity to the guidance of Holy Spirit; His Voice will be less clear…and the voice of priority will be to the religion of man.
A word of encouragement to each person, man, woman, teen, child,
whom SGM has emblazoned the letter “T” for talebearer (gossip,slander,bitter etc)
—There IS the letter “T”:
—it is for “Truth”
Truth uncovers deceptions, manipulations, counterfeits,maulings, control….
****************************************************************
Blue Sky,
You came into the Refuge in Gods perfect timing. I stand up with you and place my arm around you to say— I HEAR you…and take the courage the Lord is extending to you to continue to see and identify UNChristlike actions. We know the Lords will is not that His people be held in any type of spiritual, or mental captivity— Keep looking up –seeing the beautiful blue sky and breathing in His Spirit— He will guide you…and protect you as you listen to the ‘nudgings’ of His warning signals (I love that about Him)
The Lord keep you and your household in His manifested UNfailing love — Waters
Thank you, BY, for braving the “waters” (sorry for the pun. I’m a writer and couldn’t resist) and being open about what you did/said. I’m sure it was a heated meeting and I’m sure there was a lot of pressure on everyone that day and afterwards — and even amid family members, some of whom wanted mom and dad to stay in the church and were probably extremely upset at the thought of their departure with the other two couples.
I choose to shower this whole situation with grace and love. But grace and love should never have to cover the truth. They cover a multitude of sins, but love rejoices in the truth. However, if you are still attending the church and no one has harmed you, despite all these stories of abuse, you may still want to stay with your friends, safe and well. Snug. It is a hard place to leave. I just hope that the Lord will rip open the entire denomination — in much the same way he met that young woman at the Pensacola revival in Florida who stepped up to the mic and began repenting for her sins, unleashing a payload of weeping and repentance that flowed to God’s heart and touched Him so deeply that He released a flood of anointing on them. I’ve been a Christian for thirty or so years, and I’ve seen stranger things happen, a man rising from the dead, Howard Kanatzer (sp) included. Our God can do ANYTHING!
Waters, you so eloquently stated the problem. God has the solution in His hand, in His timing. Until someone leaves the church and starts breathing different air and drinking from a different fountain, they are not going to be able to understand what we’re saying here. This means, to me, that we need to be merciful in our replies, remembering that the scales fell from our eyes only because He tore them off. Such a work of the Holy Spirit can’t be accomplished by man, I don’t think, or we would have seen change by now. But I’m very glad these two blogs are here as beacons. They may be the planting, the watering, etc. One day, we’ll see the harvest!
BY,
I, too, am glad you talked with your friend after the meeting and reconciled.
“—There IS the letter “T”:
—it is for “Truth”
Truth uncovers deceptions, manipulations, counterfeits,maulings, control”
Clapping icons for Waters & Freedom Fighter!!!
LB, if you are still reading, I certainly believe that the current sr. pastor at SGCC is trying to “fix” those things that have been in error. The problem as Waters wrote is that the foundation is cracked and we all know what happens (as FF wrote) when something is built upon a broken, cracked foundation. It will not stand upright; it will not stand the test of time; and it will not support the heavy loads above it. There have been many things that have added cracks to this foundation but I believe that the major problem is that SGCC is still associated with and part of SGM. Until SGM itself changes or until such time as the church in Chesapeake chooses to leave SGM altogether (which at this time does not appear likely) then there are real concerns. No, there is real danger. What is the danger? That the spiritual and mental abuses, control, and manipulation will once again rear its ugly head. There have been no changes made in the polity of SGM churches, including Chesapeake, nor in the accountability structure. There is no system of checks and balances that will assure it will not happen again. CS will tell you that I am wrong that the care group leaders now are holding the pastors accountable and that there are discussions going on before decisions are made. Again, danger, danger, danger. The care group leaders hold no power or authority. They are not elders but might be more akin to deacons (although they are not designated as deacons in this movement). The pastors within SGCC are still the only elders in the church and they are still paid for their duties.
Again, I truly believe that the current sr. pastor has the best of intentions and motives and is trying very hard to repair things. However, he is still aligned with CJ and the whole SGM machine. This, I believe, is where the danger lies. CJ and Larry T. started SGM and over the course of time, we all know that CJ got rid of Larry. We have all seen pastor after pastor discarded and tossed aside, in a somewhat similar manner as with Larry. Oh, the specifics might differ but the similarities are there as well.
LB, if you knew some of the people on this blog, you would know that we are not bitter towards SGM and we have moved on into the wonderful new things that God has for us. We are moving forward. However, we write on this blog because there is still danger lurking within the walls of SGM. Why do I continue to think there is danger? In a word, repentance. CJ to this day has not repented. Besides the fact that there is no evidence of this, we see through his writings that he believes that he is the victim, not the abuser. He is the one who created this environment and passed it on to the pastors. He is the one who allowed and even covered up abuse after abuse within his network of SGM churches. I suspect that he is also the one making the decision to keep the old polity and the ole’ boys’ club!
So LB, this is why I continue to write. My heart is not against the Chesapeake church, in fact it is for this church. I pray that for the day when this church is no longer affiliated with SGM and CJ and for the day when this church is part of the bigger body of Christ. I pray for the day when this church is healthy and the blinders are removed.
This to me is why there are still blogs about SGM and why many of us are still writing!
Fred,
Thankyou for sharing your heart in the excellent synopsis for why there are postings on SGM Refuge.
My family and I agree with your words.. “My heart is not against the Chesapeake church (or any SGM church) —in fact, it is FOR this church……….”
As long as SGM continues in their Polity—the abuses will continue and Gods people will be mauled. We know that there is much ‘unpublished’ about the abuses in some stories-
And this is why I post—to help those who are beginning to “see”…To encourage those who rise up for Gods Truth when He exposes unrighteousness in an SGM church;
And to be vigilant when the SGM drop-ins seek to stir in any smokescreens, or enticements to the SGMHappyPlace. We too pray for blinders to be removed from Gods people.. to step into freedom from leaven polluted air.
Eyes on our Redeemer, Who IS the Resurrection and the Life (John 11:25)
Please read The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse by David Johnson & Jeff VanVonderen. My daughter said it was required reading for her Theology major. Excellent
Yes, LB!! Excellent book and a must read for SGM’ers!!
So very encouraged to hear this is required reading in your daughters Theology class —perhaps all this spiritual abuse is coming to light to the degree that our Seminary/Theology students are being equipped to recognize and stop this insidious inroad into the denominations.
Thank you LB. I have read it and it is an excellent book!
Would this be a helpful book for an eighteen year old girl who has lived with severe abusive control by her father? In other words, does the book only apply to church abuse or would it also help this girl I speak of?
BarbaricYawp (or BW?): You stated above, “…he would periodically interject further comment from his seat, which I felt was inappropriate, since he had had his turn, and others should have been given the same opportunity,” referring to the brother you angerly corrected, explaining why you felt you had the authority to correct him (or anybody). By whose authority do you make this statement? Were you on staff at SGC? Who was in charge of this meeting? Clearly it wasn’t you, or was it? Under what authority did you feel that you had the ability to regulate how long a member of a church may speak. After all, 10 minutes, or even 20 minutes, after attending a church for over 20 years, is not a long time. I am concerned that there were many present at this meeting who felt as though they possessed some sought of extra-authority, which allows them to make decisions to which they had no authority. BTW, I was at that meeting, and distinctly heard you, as well as another man, Steve Bokmiller, hush this man up. It is immaterial what you said to commit this act. What is material is that you (and S.B.) said it. I know nothing about your reconciliation with the brother, and if it occurred as you say it did, applaud you. I do, however, take concern that it appears that you know little about the impact your comments had on so many more than just the brother you spoke it toward (yes, even 2 years later). Have you reconciled with them? As a former member of Sovereign Grace Church Chesapeake, I am unaware of such a reconciliation. You obviously slighted this man publicly, even by your own admission on this blog. Have you reconciled publicly?
Greener, You have brought up another interesting point. At least at SGCC, the people were encouraged to confront and correct others in their sin. In this way, there was authority given to each member to not only observe but then to “speak into others’ lives. There was a statement in their covenant agreement with the members that if you observed sin in a brother you would confront and correct. This was your duty as a Christian. I would suspect that BY believed that he indeed did have the authority to correct his brother in that meeting. But the behaviors in that meeting by BY and his buddy were definitely mocking the older man. This was not an unusual occurence in that church. As long as I was there, there was a definite spirit of mocking which was evident even when SS was pastor. Those pastors left behind after he went west would actually mock each other and others from the stage on a Sunday morning. Remember, it all flows down from the top. What the leaders do, the members will also do. This spirit was evident in the adults as well as the children. If the children observe their pastors and parents mocking others, of course they will copy this same behavior. This is one example of the culture in this church. I wonder, how long does it take for the culture to change in a church? There are things such as mocking that are so embedded, can it be gone in 2 years? I wonder……We know that all things are possible with God but we also know that there will be evidence of good fruit. The polity is still the same and there are no unpaid elders so where is the change? Quizzler posted some excellent questions that need to be asked of the current staff.
For the 18year-old girl I would also recommend Quivering Daughters (you can read a lot of the book online.)
Thank you, DB.
Fred, I remembering the mocking as being condescension. It was horrible to receive that kind of look from a pastor. You didn’t know what you did wrong but knew that he was laughing at you on the inside or, at the very least, judging you from his high seated position. Took me years to figure that one out.
I never experienced condescension, only a sort of formulaic approach to everything. Ex: Raising children. You must require first time obedience, spank them for every infraction, etc., in order to parent biblically. There was a pat answer for every childrearing or marriage question, and there wasn’t much in the way of individuality. Being sort of artistic — my parents were symphony musicians in Dallas and before that played at Radiocity in NYC — I wasn’t a great fit for the sort of vanilla type one size fits all approach. But the beauty of humanity is in our differences. Our quirks and oddities. At least that’s what I have found to be true for me.
I don’t think anyone plans to become condescending. It’s learned and absorbed from above or possibly at Pastor’s College? I’m glad to see it being discussed here for more than one reason. My daughter has fallen for someone who is not a believer, much to our dismay. There has been a positive in it all, though, and that is that we are seeing what we look like to someone outside the body of believers. It’s not always pretty! Sometimes we don’t exude the lovely fragrance of Christ as much as we think we do. In those times, it quickly becomes obvious because he is in our midst as judge and jury. I’m grateful for the opportunity to see my sin exposed, and more grateful than ever for the immense grace God has showered on me, a sinner. (I realize that sounds sort of SGM-ish, but it’s true grace I’m talking about.) Perhaps, though, these pastors don’t even know they’re being condescending. These things come on you gradually over time and unless they’re exposed, they cling. Here’s hoping someone has the courage to bring these things up to them!
LB
If you are still reading, a person going by the name Kerrin posted some interesting quotes from a book today on the SGM Survivors. The writing Kerrin posted sure sounds like SGM. You can find it on the following link:
http://www.sgmsurvivors.com/?p=2088
comment 164
Hope this helps you and your daughter make the right decision.
SGM refuge + SGM survivors = Radio Free Christianity!!
Fred, that last comment made me smile…I remember the days of Radio Free Europe!
Apparently, Sam Storms http://www.enjoyinggodministries.com/was at SGC Chesapeake this past weekend and spoke on the Holy Spirit. It was exciting to hear that the people there are being taught more on Holy Spirit! Other changes have also been made including purchase of a baptismal. As I thought of these changes it seemed obvious to me that the church is moving forward! Moving forward can be a wonderful, very positive thing as we on Refuge know. But as I thought of this, the church moving forward, my mind wandered to those who have been left behind - those beaten, battered sons and daughters of God and there are many. Many who were either hurt and wounded by the deception and wrong doctrine and control and manipulation by church leaders and others who were mentally and spiritually abused by dangerous counseling. I was reminded of a story that we are all familiar with.
This is a story of a man robbed, stripped, and beaten lying on the side of the road, half dead. But it is also a story about 3 other men: a priest, Levite, and Samaritan. Two of these men continued moving forward, thinking only of themselves (Luke 11:30-37). As the man going from Jerusalem lay half dead (as the Amplified Bible states) the priest and Levite kept moving forward, ignoring the beaten, half dead man lying on the side of the road. They both saw him and they both passed by on the other side of the road. Being a priest and a Levite, they certainly must have known the Old Testament and yet they did not stop to help the man. They had knowledge of the law but they had no heart and they did not have love and so they kept moving forward.
I am wondering SGC Chesapeake and all other SGM churches, as you move forward, what have you done about those robbed, stripped and beaten sons and daughters of God who are lying on the side of the road? They were robbed of much during their years within your movement, SGM. Many were stripped of their dignity, their identity in Christ, and their faith in Christian leaders ( and more). They were spiritually and emotionally beaten and abused at they hands of the Shepherds, the very ones who should have been protecting, nurturing and caring for them. Again, I ask, what are you doing about those lying on the side of the road? Will you continue to pass by on the other side of the road or will you stop your forward momentum as the Samaritan did? The Amplified Bible says that “he was moved with pity and sympathy (for him). And went to him and dressed his wounds, pouring on (them) oil and wine. Then he set him on his own beast and brought him to an inn and took care of him…….” SGM, we are all commanded to ”love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind; and love your neighbor as yourself.”
Fred,
What a heart-felt post! You are so right. I hope SGM doesn’t stop the Holy Spirit as our church did in the mid-90′s. Remember the time of refreshing? If the Holy Spirit is giving this group another chance, I am extremely happy. However, you are right, Fred. There are wounded sheep who read this blog. They would highly benefit from a recognition of the SGM leadership, attempting to show love to those they have hurt and misled and even deceived. Any leaders ready to admit to their own wrong doing in this controlling organization would be well received here. Many wounded hearts could be touched by this loving action.
Fred,
Excellent post!
Fred, Excellent post and admonition!
The scripture story you took us to (Luke 11:30-37) reminded me of a very significant sermon given by Yesupadem (evangelist/missionary from India) in the spring of 2005 at Grace Church Chesapeake! I remember it vividly — it was one of those ‘sermons’ the Holy Spirit breathed His Breath into every illustration and exhortation. As I have thought back on this time, and reviewed my notes, I have often seen, in hindsight, that his words to Sovereign Grace Church Chesapeake were….prophetic.
I would like to share with all of you the main points of his exhortation to the church:
He opened by speaking of the great love of God and beseeched the church to HEAR:
“For God SO LOVED the world…”
He gave the referring scripture (Luke 10: 25-37), the Story of the Good Samaritan.
We all know the story. A ‘certain lawyer’ attempted to put Jesus ‘to the test’. This lawyer knew the commandments and decalred his own answer to Jesus what is written in the Law
”You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind; and your neighbor as yourself.” verse 28: ”Jesus said to him you have answered correctly; do this and you will live.” But wishing to justify himself he said to Jesus ‘And who IS my neighbor?…………..Then Jesus relates the story of the beaten,wounded,robbed man lying on the road and the three (types) of people who saw him —a priest, a Levite, a man from Samaria.
(As Fred worte above, the Priest and the Levite saw the wounded dying man…but kept on moving forward to their own destination……the Samaritan man saw him…and cared for him, bandaged his wounds, journeyed with him to a safe place, an inn, and provided for his continuing care towards recovery)—And then Jesus asks the lawyer the heart revealing question in verse 36:
“Which of these 3 do you think proved to be a neighbor to the man who fell into the robbers hands?” The lawyer answered
’The one who showed mercy toward him.’ (vs 37)
And Jesus said to him “Go…and do the same.”
The Samaritn man S A W the wounded broken man… and moved T O W A R D him
—he was moved by compassion (compassion— the language of love in action)
The Priest and the Levite knew the commandments, were void of compassion, and missed their divine appointment to bring healing and restoration to a robbed and broken man.
The Priests and Levite individuals represent those who are respected; supposed to represent God and the Gospel……but they do not truly see or hear the needy and broken
who are in their path.
***********************************************************************
In Sovereign Grace Ministries, their beloved structure of SGM Polity has been their ‘answer’
to the broken, wounded, maligned, questioners of leaven, appealers of Gods Truth.
And so, in an SGM story, the Levite and Priest representing an SGM pastor and Apostle
would bring ‘correction’ to the Samaritan man by charging him with:
Pride (of course)…. Bringing attention to himself…. Not believeing the best because afterall maybe the pastor or apostle really did have plans to turn around and help in some manner….Not first requesting permission from a pastor or apostle before taking up the task of going towards a wounded bleeding person….Not waiting for a pastor or apostle to oversee any ministring actions…And then, if the samaritan tried to ask others for help at the inn, the pastors and apostles would charge the samaritan with dividing the unity of the town……….
But wait….
The broken wounded, bleeding, robbed, dying man…….would also be charged by the pastors and apostles:
Lack of wisdom…Allowing (?) an ‘unclean’ samaritan to see, hear, and care for him…
Slander, gossip and bitterness when the wounded man relays the story of how the pastors and apostles ignored his brokenness and cries for help
The power of the Gospel brings salvation and then transformation, from glory to glory, into the image of Christ Jesus. However, if we are void of the motivation of the love of God and, as Yesupaddem defined compassion as ‘the language of love in action’, we only seek to justify ourselves as the lawyer did in our great knowledge of the commandments and the checklists. How do you respond to the broken and wounded, SGM? The broken and wounded at the hands of your own polity driven leadership?
As recently as the several months of testimonies and reports at KingsWay Midlothian
we see the reality of SGM Polity in action.
Change???
Canary, that would be so wonderful! Yes, any and all SGM leaders, past and present, we welcome you on here! Please come and join this dialogue. It could be such a good thing.
Stunned
P.S.
on my above post, everything written below the ‘stars’ is NOT the analogy of Yesuppadem
That certainly would be significant for SGM to admit their past mistakes including the mistakes made at Chesapeake. Has anyone hear of or a know of examples where specific mistakes made were confessed? Was there any soul searching as to why this happened and what could be done to prevent this from happening again?
One would think that confession and repentance of past mistakes would be required for the Spirit to have an outpouring like Fred described possibly starting or an outpouring of the Spirit would cause this confession.
I pray that something happens but am quite skeptical.
Canary and Stunned – it will never happen.
It is well known, all the way up the chain, that this platform is available to any SGM pastor. They know that they can set the ground rules. I’ll close comments after they post, I’ll hide their identity if they like-whatever they choose, I’ll accommodate.
You see, these are “local church issues that do not belong on a blog”.
Hello. Thanks for allowing me to post on this site. I just found this site this evening. I posted at Survivors earlier and regretfully I did not come across as loving as I should have…not Christ-like at all.
I interned at SGM for the first couple of years of my 10 year pastoral training. I’m not a part of the “inner circle” of SGM, but was mentored by CJ, so after reading all of your posts I felt that I should post and allow any of you to say or ask anything to me and I would do my best to answer. I don’t know that I am the SGM leadership past or present you were mentioning, but all the same I trained under them.
A little bio of me, I am not affiliated with SGM. My being influenced by CJ or SGM amounts to the size of a newt compared to the other influences that I have mostly the Pastor/best friend that mentored me for the last 7 years of my pastoral training. But, I have been influenced obviously by CJ and SGM because of my earlier internship.
My theolgoical beliefs are: I am calvinist, but not the say it once to your kid and the next time “whack” them. I am of the Piper “new-calvinist” influence, but not sure to what amount. Anymore about my beliefs I am willing to share at any time.
I am VERY VERY VERY sorry for the abuses that you all have gone through. I assure you I am and will continue to pray for you, your families, your friends, SGM, and all the SGM churches that have been involoved in this abuses.
In Chirst’s Name,
Cory McDonald
Conference on Holy Spirit does not equal outpouring of Holy Spirit. Teaching on Holy Spirit quite different from experiencing Holy Spirit!
Thanks Canary, Happy Mom and Waters! I continue to think of God’s sons and daughters who are still wounded and hurt from their years with SGM!
Cory
I saw your post on SGM Survivors and here. One thing that has surprised me has been SGM response to what has been said on these blogs. SGM Leaders seem to have no problem with dismissing all of the allegations and concerns posted on these blogs. There seems to little introspection on the part of SGM Leaders
IMO SGM Leaders are acting like the Jewish people of Jesus’ time when Jesus said that if the miracles He did had occurred in Gentile cities they would have repented in “sackcloth and ashes.” Jesus even said that had His miracles occurred in Sodom they would still been standing in Jesus day.
SGM Leaders are quick to dismiss what is alleged here vs. considering it a possible warning from God.
Cory, I think the issue for me isn’t so much the polity itself but the fact that time and time again it has produced woundedness and no one has stepped up (until you just did — thank you!) to apologize for the damage. It reminds me of the whole healthcare debaucle. You try implementing a plan in good faith, but when it doesn’t produce fruit and actually, instead, causes great harm, you have to at some point can it and try something new. I’m not a Calvinist now because of what happened at SGC Chesapeake back in the nineties, but I think anyone who is would agree that telling an abused woman God must want her husband to be abusing her in order to teach her some life lesson or other (paraphrasing) and to harass the woman and threaten excommunication if she leaves the marriage and not contact authorities or at least call the husband on the carpet for what he’s doing is reckless and dangerous and to say the least, not what Calvin had in mind when he suggested God was sovereign over us all. Why does CJ continue to support this sort of abuse of authority on the part of his pastors? Why hasn’t he come out and apologized to everyone in an open letter or made changes?
We are called to confront darkness and sin within the church and I admit we’re not doing it perfectly here and maybe it would be too intimidating for him to comment on this blog, but surely he could send a letter to the pastors to be read to the churches. I know they all mean well. They really do. And when we left the church, they didn’t understand why. They didn’t see, it didn’t click in their minds that there were “cultish” tendencies to the polity. Now that they DO know, though, from reading the stories here, I’m wondering why nothing has changed. I remember Bob Mumford defending the whole “shepherding” movement at first, but later he recanted and repented of the heavyhandedness and authoritative way the pastors of Maranatha churches were leading. I’d sure like to see this happen within SGM. I haven’t been a part of it for at least a decade, but I still remember the pain.
Hey Cory, I appreciate the way you entered here. If you don’t mind me making a suggestion, please continue reading. If you feel I am out of line for making a suggestion to a complete stranger, please feel free to skip this post.
Above you said, “I posted at Survivors earlier and regretfully I did not come across as loving as I should have…not Christ-like at all.”
Can I suggest that you go back to SGM Survivors and tell them that you didn’t like the way you came across? I think it would be a good idea.
Best,
Stunned
Steve-
First, I’m not dismissing any of the allegations. I wasn’t at those churches nor did I witness anything like that during my time at SGM, but that doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. I wasn’t there when Affirmed won the Triple Crown in 1978, but I know he won it because of facts.
I do not think this is God giving SGM a warning, I think it is simply people abusing their power and taking scripture and peverting it, so that it matches up with what they’re trying to teach (think Rob Bell, Creflo Dollar, Joel Osteen, etc). It is to me a matter of humans abusing the power that they don’t have, but they think they do have because of the call to the pulpit.
Freedom-
I do believe God is sovereign, but sovereign doesn’t mean abusive or ignorant. For anybody to say “God is sovereign, so he must want you to go through this abuse because of X” is ignorant at best. God is just in punishment obviously (He sent His Son to die on a roman cross for our sins), but not in the sense of you are going through this abuse to teach you this or that. That takes EVERYTHING that Calvin taught and peverting it and twisting it, so that it matches up to what you want it to. I do think you should face the person that abused you…. in a court room, if at all.
As for why hasn’t Cj appologized for this abuse by the Pastors? The only answer I have is he loves and trusts the Pastors and after hearing their story about things he thinks what they did isn’t abuse or whatever, but again I am not CJ and am not in his brain. Stupid answer I know, but it’s the best one I could come up with.
Like I said earlier in this post I didn’t witness any cover ups, abuses, etc during my four years at SGM, but again that doesn’t meant it didn’t happen. The CJ I know (knew) was humble, loving, etc. The CJ I know (knew) was loving enough that when my Dad died he sat in my house with me all night comforting me, the CJ I know (knew) also sat with me for two days when it appeared my Mom was dying. It is that CJ that I was coming to defense to when I posted my comments at Survivors (UnChrist-like 100%).
I am not sure why these Pastors haven’t repented or why nobody within the SGM leadership hasn’t come to this blog or Survivors and commented or why a letter hasn’t been sent to the churches to be read to the congregation and frankly it is cowardice to just try to ignore things in hopes that they go away when so many people have been affected by the abuse.
It is abuse like this that causes people to become dechurched and/or come to hate christianity. That is not part of the Great Commission that God has called us to. In fact it is the polar opposite.
Cory, it is very kind of you to apologize for the abuses incurred by SGM over the years. Since you were not involved with the abuse, are not on staff, and are not in leadership within SGM I must conclude that your apology comes from a compassionate heart for your brothers and sisters in Christ. Thank you for sharing your heart with us. Unfortunately, you are not in a postion to “step up” and apologize for the others.
There are many (including me) who have benefited much and have been blessed much by the teachings of Creflo Dollar and Joel Osteen. As far as I know, these men have never been accused of abusing God’s people. Differences in theology and differences in interpretation of Scripture are very different from abusing God’s people.
I continue to think of all those who have been wounded by SGM. It seems clear to me that it is not just those who have left that have been robbed, stripped, and beaten but it is also those who are still within SGM. They have also been robbed, stripped, and beaten by sitting under doctrine that is shot full of error. They have been robbed, stripped, and beaten by being in a system where they are not allowed to operate in the gifts that Almighty God has given them. They have been robbed, stripped, and beaten because they have not been allowed to walk in their true identity as sons and daughters of the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. They have been robbed, stripped, and beaten because they have been under the heavy hand and bondage of their own sin, not taught the victory that is theirs through the Cross and Resurrection. They have been robbed, stripped, and beaten because they have watched abuse happening to their fellow brothers and sisters and they sat in silence fearing that it would happen to them. They have been robbed, sstripped, and beaten by the controlling, manipulating pastors that have kept them from living the abundant life that Jesus has promised for all those who believe in Him. They have been robbed, stripped, and beaten by ungodly counsel and being held back in many cases from receiving help from professional mental health experts who have been trained and could really help them with their issues. I could go on and on with examples but time does not allow. Certainly, those still in SGM churches have had a choice to leave but they chose to stay. However, …they are being held captive through the strong deception which operates within SGM. We continue to pray that God will lift the veil off of their eyes and that they will see and hear Truth!
Cory,
Appreciate your patience. We sat in CJ’s office, he heard all about our issues.
Two of our kids were molested during our time at SGM, read Noel’s story on the Survivor blog and you will see how those pastors responded, we got the same treatment, plus some. (same church as Noel’s) We gave two years of our time challenging how SGM responds to sex abuse against children and CJ has ignored all our emails since August 2010.
It is not exposing these issues that hurts the cause of Christ, it is the behavior of some of the leadership in SGM that does far more damage to a watching world.
Thank you for posting Happymom! There probably are SGM pastors that have not abused the people nor perverted the word but they have participated by being in a corrupt system. They have participated by remaining silent and not speaking out against the abuse. They have participated by staying in as SGM pastors.
Cory,
Thank you for conversing with us. It is most appreciated. The CJ you describe from the past is whom I remember from afar. His humility before God, his sense of humor, how he could engage us to KNOW God when he taught…those things were there, once. When Larry T. left and CJ took charge of the then PDI, he began to change. Again, I am speaking from one who did not know him personally, only from the pulpit. PDI began to change dramatically, like a damn had been busted. The focus on sin instead of Jesus, remaining at the cross almost as though in worship, and the sudden need to control our personal lives began to develop. It became less and less subtle to the point of abuse, as has been posted on this blog and at Survivors.
So the question is, when did you have that time with CJ? Was it before or after Larry T. left? I believe he was forced out in the early/mid 90′s. Someone correct me if I’m wrong. I was at the ’96 Celebration – Larry T. was in the audience, having been “de-gifted” or whatever. That was the Celebration when CJ redirected the Holy Spirit (at least in my humble opinion) and said he “wasn’t afraid to lead”. Things got much worse with control issues in my PDI church that next year – the pastors decided to stop the refreshing that the Holy Spirit was bringing. It was a conscious decision, according to our cg leader. Our head pastor was one of the big guys in the PDI chain. The need to control in leadership became so bad that it bordered on paranoia. My family left late summer of 1997.
Funny thing, the pastor I speak of was fired a few years back. It gets quite confusing for us to keep up with who is gifted, when he is gifted, and when he suddenly is not. Some pastors stay though children misbehave. Others are fired when an adult offspring goes astray. Some pastors who were quite loving to the sheep (I think of one in particular who really loved the people) was sacked due to a lack of administrative giftings. Oy, my poor, whittle yellow head. It gets so frustrating to follow and understand all the double standards we see.
But I digress. My point is that you might be speaking about the early CJ. That is commendable. He was different at one time. You know, I’d have moved on from this whole situation had not so many people come here to speak of the same problems, the same abuses of power, only worse. The fact that SGM has gotten worse, not better, in all the years since I was there (according to recent reports of witnesses – more than two or three!) makes me feel so sad. There have been too many wounds, to much leaving behind of those who could not keep up with a group of people who think they have it all, when really they do not. The ultimate lack of integrity this organization has shown over-all (I’m sure there are some SGM churches excluded from this – Jim says not to paint SGM with a broad brush and I agree), the outright manipulation of the truth is appalling.
The CJ you once knew might not be the same man as he is now. Something changed. Unless, of course, your connection with him was more recent than 1996…
Cory said:
“I do not think this is God giving SGM a warning, I think it is simply people abusing their power and taking scripture and peverting it, so that it matches up with what they’re trying to teach (think Rob Bell, Creflo Dollar, Joel Osteen, etc). ”
I find this interesting how you don’t think that these blogs are some type of warning to SGM about their abuses etc? Shouldn’t SGM leaders be humbly responding to to concerns raised and allegations of abuse?
You are welcome Fred.
I agree, that’s why I wrote “some of the leadership” although there were quite a few pastors involved with our issues. JB from South Carolina and KM from CLC, all who, like CJ, continue to ignore all our emails.
Steve, check your yahoomail.
So, Is there a church that any of you would recommend trying out around this area? One preferably non-denominational.
Hi HH, what is “this area” that you are referring to?
If you mean Chesapeake, Va, I’d recommend 1) Chesapeake Vineyard Christian Fellowship – a small, safe family church we’ve known and loved for decades or
2) New Life Providence near Kempsville and Indian River Rd.,
3) Greenbrier Church on Volvo Pkwy or Eden Way. Can’t remember which, or
4) Kempsville Presbyterian Church on Kempsville Rd.
Sadly FF, it appears that the same heavyhandedness and control is at KPC. I was shocked but was told by a very reliable source. This person’s story was very similar to one that you would hear about SGM.
Hi Cory!
Thanks so much for your gracious tone.
I scratched my head over this: “I am calvinist, but not the say it once to your kid and the next time “whack” them.”
I’m a diehard reformed believer, mostly Calvinist, pretty savvy about doctrine, but simply can’t make head or tails out of that comment.
Thanks.
RT, SGM told us to maintain first time obedience with our children by spanking them for every single infraction. That’s probably what he’s referring to. It has less to do with reformed thinking than SGM, though.
HH,
Check it out: http://www.poemavb.org/ Although we don’t live close enough, if I lived in the area, I would give this one serious concideration. Hey, can’t lose anything by at least checking it out online.
Oh, that’s terrible! My husband proposed to me at KPC on Easter Sunday 23 years ago. I’m sorry to hear about that. There’s a church called The Wave Church near the beach that I heard was good — sort of youth oriented, I think. I’ve been gone for about ten years now. We live in NC. The only church in Chesapeake I know you can trust is the Chesapeake Vineyard. We’ve walked miles alongside them. Their pastors/elders each have unique giftings — preaching, administration, teaching, pastoral care. And they are wonderful, loving people.
Hey, FF,
I found it interesting that a pastor with ten years of understudy would associate reformed theology with abusing children.
In the decades I’ve been in reformed churches, I’ve heard grace, grace, grace.
Knew several charismatics that would whack their kids, though. Doesn’t make me suspect their theology includes whacking children.
I just expected more adroitness at handling doctrinal points from someone with that much preparation?
Can I say it one more time: SGM IS NO MORE REFORMED THAN MY DOG.
Ew, this charismatic wouldn’t dream of smacking… I guess we’re overgeneralizing about denominational afiliations. I have found over the years that reformed doctrine like that of some SGM churches (the type that is carried to extremes — maybe we need to rename is something other than reformed or Calvinist so as not to offend those of that persuasion) leads people to harden their hearts. After all, if a person is in a tight spot or being abused or struggling financially, isn’t that their destiny? Doesn’t God want them to be where they are, struggling as they are? Why should I do anything to help? Wouldn’t that interfere with God’s supreme plan? And that leads straight to “Wow, I’m sure glad my life is going great. And I’m doing everything just right. God must surely be pleased.” It’s more like karma than Christianity. But I realize not every person in every SGM church is like that. I happen to really love Barbaric Y and others still at SG Chesapeake. I worry about them, though…
RT said:
“I found it interesting that a pastor with ten years of understudy would associate reformed theology with abusing children.
In the decades I’ve been in reformed churches, I’ve heard grace, grace, grace.”
The over control and taking control that I hear reported being taught and done in SGM Churches seems to indicate they really don’t believe in the Reformed Doctrine of God being in control of their child’s salvation. If one believes that God elects some to salvation and reprobates others then why the over control of children. It contradicts what they supposedly believe about election.
RT-
I DON’T associate Reformed Theology to abusing children. What I have learned from reading all of the posts is that SGM believes in one time saying next time spanking and they call themselves “Reformed”, so I was stating that I am not of the SGM “Reformed Theology” variety.
Hey Cory, not trying to “nail” you here, Bud. For the most part I like what you say, but from time to time you say something that doesn’t seem to compute for me so if you don’t mind, I like to ask about it.
You said, “What I have learned from reading all of the posts is that SGM believes in one time saying next time spanking.”
This kinda shocked me. You spent 3 or 4 years being mentored by CJ Mahaney yet you didn’t know this from your time with him? I mean, this, one time telling, next time spanking is kinda big there. As in BIG. How did you not learn that in all those years working at SGM?
You know, as I ponder all this, a couple of thoughts come to mind. One, the women of the church did a large part of the disciplining when I went there, so maybe the men didn’t get as much of the spanking stuff drilled into them. Two, and this is a grand generalization for sure, when someone messes up at their job, it’s embarrassing, scary, and dangerous to their livelihood to have to own it. I’m sure that by the time CJ heard of whatever shenanigans were going on they had been firmly sugarcoated by those involved. He may not, until these blogs appeared, have heard the actual facts straight from the people who were harmed. It doesn’t excuse his silence now — although it would/will be a difficult thing for him to openly repent of leading an entire denomination toward heavyhandedness and away from the grace he so espouses. I don’t know him at all and have never heard him preach, so I can’t judge, but I know he sits at the helm of a large corporation that he doesn’t want to go belly up. He’s probably feeling like slow incremental changes will fix things and allow him to save face and keep the wheels rolling. I don’t see that as the most noble way to handle all that’s been exposed, but I’ve never run a large corporation either. He’s probably frightened, too. Thus the joke about being persecuted.
I’m just ruminating on it all. I don’t know if any of this will make sense to anyone else! We’re all such broken vessels that I hate seeing people so hurt and I also hate seeing those who jump to the defense of their beloved church feeling hurt. I will not relent in my request for the Lord to break through to the hardhearted and bring reconciliation through repentance and forgiveness. I realize some of these stories are so incredibly sad that that’s more than likely never going to be possible.
:::::not saying a word::::
Ellie–that’s because you one smart lady, methinks.
Thanks for the response, Cory. It’s unusual for a pastor not to attend seminary (I mean pastors outside of SGM.) I’d love to hear your reasons for not pursuing a more traditional education. I have to say I find your terminology odd–you just don’t sound like a pastor of several decades. ”What I have learned from reading all of the posts is that SGM believes in one time saying next time spanking and they call themselves “Reformed”, so I was stating that I am not of the SGM “Reformed Theology” variety.”
I’ve never heard the expression “one time saying next time spanking,” in fact I had to read it several times before I figured out that it must be some sort of SGM-speak. I’ve not read it here on the blogs…
I completely accept your explanation, but I’d expect a pastor to have a more comprehensive hold on reformed theology…
Thanks again, Cory, for sticking in here and answering questions. I’m glad you’re here.
RT, I’m still waiting on Cory to answer my question from Survivors:
March 17th, 2011 at 1:10 pm
So, Cory…what does your wife think of CJ? (I assume she met him while you were interning.) What did she think of the SGM attitude towards women and how children were to act?
Have you read Esther’s story? (This happened at Chesapeake, but this attitude concerning women was widespread at SGM.)
Hello. Sorry that it has taken me so long to get back here and answer questions. We (my family and I) have had a bit of a rough week. My son’s teacher’s 17 month old son passed away, we are close with the family.
Stunned-
You’re not “nailing” me. I’ll answer anything, so you don’t have to worry about thinking you’re “nailing” me.
During my time at SGM nothing was discussed as in regards to the discipline of children and all that. We trained as Pastors, but mostly from a preaching the Word standpoint. Hope that makes sense.
RT-
I took seminary classes and am currently taking more seminary classes. In May I will graduate with a MDiv. I didn’t attend Seminary traditionally because Seminary teaches theologians not Pastors. Pastors teach and train Pastors. So, I decided I was going to go the route of being trained by several Pastors and maybe at some point take some seminary classes, which I’m doing now. Hope that makes sense.
As for the “say it one time and the next spank them” it has been stated several times on this blog hence why I put it that way.
I’m sorry that my terminology seems odd, that’s just I talk I guess. I’m not a Pastor of several decades, I’m only three decades old.
Ellie-
I answered you on Survivors, but I will answer you here too just in case.
My wife and I were not together during my time at SGM, so she wasn’t around CJ during that time. She has met CJ and has been around him several times, but only at conferences. So, what she thinks of CJ would be far different than your’s or anybody elses. As for the attitude towards women and how children were to act, she doesn’t have any idea about it and hasn’t been around SGM at all. She has however read on this blog and on Survivors, so she is aware of all of you and is praying for you all daily.
Hi Cory, thanks for coming back and I’m so sorry to hear your sad news. I will pray for the family.
I wanted to comment on what you said about seminary. I went to seminary — got an MA in Theology. Many of my classes were pastoral, or at least many of the classes offered. I wasn’t planning on becoming a pastor. They offered coursework in pastoral counseling, culminating in practicums at local facilities, the military, and churches. Internships were available after the academic courses were completed. I think, having read the stories here, that “official” seminary would greatly benefit future SGM pastors. They are, it seems, coming out of Pastor’s College ill prepared from a theological standpoint to serve their congregations. I took classes in biblical languages, methodical Bible study, and unity of the Bible. They really forced me to think of the word of God as a whole, inspired work and I think that was part of the reason I recognized that something was not quite right when we left SGM.
I also don’t think CJ is behaving the way he is on purpose. We all bring certain biases to the table based on our own experiences in life. It’s the whole nature vs nurture debate. Within his nature and background is a certain amount of Catholicism. Maybe he believes more in training Christians to be holy than the average reformed pastor might whose background was Presbyterian? Just a guess. It’s a work of the Spirit that any of us are holy, ever. But there’s always that desire to “work on our sin areas.” Add in a small “care” group’s help with those sin areas, and you have a really obsessive attitude toward sin.
From there, the adversary can twist and distort and voila, we see stories like you’ve read here. That’s why, I think, we need to be vigilant about the Word and about the words of our Lord within the Gospel. In Revelation, there’s a scripture that says “Let no one take your crown.” Having walked with the Lord for several decades now, through the Jesus movement, the prosperity doctrine movement (even went to a couple of services at Bob Tilton’s church in Dallas), and the postmodern “relevant” churches of today, I can see so many distortions of the Gospel weaving their blackness through time. It’s not pretty! And we walk a fine line here at the blogs trying to expose the darkness and still love the church itself (okay, some of us don’t love it, but we do still love the individual people we met there).
Despite all we’ve been through, I hope everyone will remember to let no one take their crown. It’s a crown of glory, proffered by a loving God who, yes, sometimes trains us through adversity, but is never the direct author of it. It’s been tempting for me — after being abused verbally by a couple of Christians, one of them Anglican and one Charismatic — to believe our Lord, by allowing us to go through the mire and be hurt, was in favor of us going through what we did. But that is not in the character of God or the New Testament. What we do see is increased persecution as the hour is late. Increased wickedness. The biggest hurdle for me with SGM’s form of Reformed (not accurate according to RT) is that idea that God must WANT us to suffer. It’s a fact that we will, but He is not doing it Himself. Does that make sense? I guess I’m still working through it. And very imperfectly.
So…Cory…your wife has been reading this blog? Really? So she has read all your posts here and knows you’ve been a pastor-in-training (basically) for the last 10 years?
Cory–thanks so very much for your patient and gracious tone. Your openness and temperance are an encouragement to me and, I suspect, to others.
I attended Sovereign Grace Church in Chesapeake for several months and during that time made many great friends. I even began attending the new members class. Then, someone pointed me to this site. The words and stories on here opened up my eyes and I saw everything they were talking about. I went back to the church once more to see it with open eyes and I knew God was calling me away from the cult-like place. We sang Blessed Be Your Name that morning and I cried all the way through it. The friends I made were all great people, but they were sunk in too deep to the church. The pastoral staff and leaders were corrupt. I looked around and noticed that an entire generation from the church was missing. There were the families who had been there well before the large conflict mentioned on this site and there were new people. When I left, I couldn’t announce to people why I was leaving because of their commitment so I only told those who asked. I made around 30 good friends and I thought half of them to be close friends. Only five people asked me why I left. Only five. Now, only one still talks to me. I had decided not to post until I noticed something tonight. I noticed that two brothers who I was close with deleted me off Facebook. The one I invited into my home, gave him a birthday present, and I always greeted them both with hugs and really cared for them. They never asked why I left. Now I realize they were never my friends. They stabbed me in the back. As my Christian brothers they should have reached out to me to make sure I was ok and they never did, neither did most of the others. Once you leave Sovereign Grace you will be forgotten about. When I left the church, it was very hard for me. Now I see that I made the right decision and that these survivor sites are entirely true. For a place that is supposed to be a House of God and full of Christians, they are so damaging and ungodly. A place were you enter vulnerable, you leave broken. What kind of church is that? It isn’t.
Hurt and Forgotten, I am so sorry for your hurt and pain but know that Jesus will heal your broken heart. I would be happy to talk with you as I used to be a member of the same church. If you would like to contact me, Jim here on the refuge can give you my email address.
Hurt and Forgotten, You are right, a caring Christian brother or sister would have reached out to you. Not delete you and turn their backs. Praying the Lord will comfort your heart and heal that wound.
Hurt and Forgotten wrote:
“I looked around and noticed that an entire generation from the church was missing.”
Up here in Richmond, if you were to attend KingsWay, you would notice the same thing. I am happy to say that I am part of that missing generation that is in the process of forming a new church. But I agree with you, people at SGM churches are cliquish and can be brutal if you leave their little family.
I hope you find true friends.
God bless you dear Sister, you may be (understandably) Hurt but you are NOT Forgotten by our Precious Savior!
You are a sweet child of God, co-heirs with Christ and seated with Him in Heavenly Places!
how great is that?!
Hurt and Forgotten, I was hurt and forgotten, too. By many of the same people, I imagine. Your eyes have been opened, but try to remember that theirs have not. They don’t realize what they’re doing. They can’t see it. I’ve spoken to several of my old friends from the past and they are all so very sorry they ostracized me after I left. It was completely unintentional. That church keeps you very busy and occupied within the congregation. There isn’t room for anyone else. It has taken 12 or so years for me to get to this place of peace, but we are all in loving fellowship with one another now. Not terribly close since I live very far away from them, but reconciled nonetheless. I want you to know you are loved and understood by everyone here and that we all feel your pain alongside you. But also that the Lord will not leave your comfortless. There are several really great churches in close proximity to the one you left. Many of the “missing generation” can be found at New Life Providence on Indian River Rd. I found loving arms at the Chesapeake Vineyard. God bless you!
Chesapeake,
I assume you have been informed of the Ambassadors of Reconciliation meetings
in Gaithersburg as they are gathering witnesses of SGM abusive tactics. Also, they seek to bring a “Biblical judgement” in regards to the CJ Mahaney versus Josh Harris/CLC stalemate. (even though CJ and the Board have declared him as fit for ministry BEFORE the A of R comes to their conclusions!)
Please read on BrentDetweiler.com a moving letter written by Bruce Farley. Those of you who have been there more than 10-12 years will remember him.
Bruce copied his letter to EH and BW.
Unless the Lord builds the house,
Those who build it labor in vain — PS 127:1
Waters………..
You mean this letter? Very interesting.
N.S.L.B.
Waters,
I would hope that your assumption is correct, but I wouldn’t count on it. I have spoken with a number of friends from KWCC and they were not aware of the AoR meetings. I still get the newsletter email and there has been no mention. If they were serious about getting all of the input they could get this would have been shouted from the rooftops. I checked the blogs of a handful of SGM churches (somewhat randomly) and found no mention.
StvMac,
You share troubling reports which indicate the minority of SGM churches are informing their congregants of this stake-in-the-ground process with AoR. And yet, not surprising.
Always, I am grieved to watch the citizens of SGM dwell in the land of Nod — Oblivious, or asleep, or choosing to ignore every opportunity to become engaged in fighting the good fight of the faith.— More oil being drained from their lamps —
And so, StvMac, we on Refuge and Survivors are a means of “Shouting from the rooftop”
on behalf of warning our brothers and sisters, and exposing the deeds of darkness.
Was reading some excerpts from Martin Luther, writing on “The Church”:
“Remember well that the sheep (that would be we Blood bought, standing in the Righteousness of God in Christ Jesus, with the mind of Christ, and the dunamis power of the indwelling Holy Spirit) have to pass judgement upon that which is placed before them.
They should say: ‘We have Christ as our Lord and prefer His Word to the words of any man or to those of the angels of darkness.’”
The assaults on the Body of Christ have been going on for centuries — the enemy packages deceptions attractively for every generation. The ‘Dearest Place on Earth’ ruled by those who authoritatively ‘stand in the very stead of God’ — and leave a wake of mauled and wounded Saints in the fields….. is being judged by the Shepherd and His sheep.