I first heard of the situation in Chesapeake on December 23 via email. I’ve since received many emails telling me the same story. I have not been contacted by “the three couples”, so I would ask SGCC to not add this to your list of their supposed sins. As I was composing the Chesapeake story, I received an email with the following letter attached. The letter was written by one of the three couples and sent to their care group, and to 7 other friends who asked for it. Please note that curiosity was aroused by Gene Emerson, and that none of the 3 couples chose to “tell it to the church”. This letter was sent to me by a friend of one of the three couples. This friend does not attend SGC Chesapeake. I’ve changed Esther’s real name to Esther. All other non pastoral names have been replaced with a single X. This letter is dated January 6.
______________________________________________________
Over these last years, we as a couple and also both individually, have been involved in the lives of many people at SGC. During these years we have observed disturbing actions and even cover up of possible criminal activity (involving church members) by the pastors of SGC. Additionally, abusive counseling has been given to many of our friends in the membership (all will remain unnamed in this letter except for Esther). A pattern of abusive counseling and a pattern of application of wrong doctrine emerged. Esther, who has given us permission to use her name, had repeatedly appealed to the SGC pastors for help but to no avail. In fact, what she did receive was abusive counseling. Esther asked X to attend a counseling session with her. He was shocked by the behavior of the pastors and became greatly concerned. In September, Esther asked Gene Emerson to become involved in her circumstances because she had become fearful of our pastors and was desperate for help. Gene Emerson refused to become involved. Esther’s request for help from other apostolic leaders including Dave Harvey and Steve Shank during that time was also refused. It was obvious that the system of accountability had failed within the pastoral staff and that the leadership above them was not going to become involved. Because of the serious nature of the issues (not only the Esther case but many cases that we had been involved with for years) and the obvious fact that the apostolic team was not willing to become involved, our consciences would not allow us to remain silent any longer. For years, we had blindly trusted our pastors and the apostolic leaders and actually made excuses for their actions. However, the time came when we could no longer turn a blind eye.
Only after Esther wrote a final letter to the pastors withdrawing her membership and once again explaining her many grievances, did the pastors publically confess and repent to her. We are very thankful that the pastors have confessed and repented to Esther and others. However, because of the pattern and serious nature of the conduct of these pastors, many questions remained including questions regarding their ability to interpret Scripture correctly, their attempt to develop faulty doctrine and their ability to effectively manage the finances of the church.
Several meetings took place in September and October by individuals and couples with various pastors regarding these issues. A meeting with the entire pastoral staff was requested on Sunday, November 9th by ourselves and two other couples who were intimately involved and had great concerns. Following the process specified in 1Timothy 5:19, we presented a list of very serious concerns to the pastors at a meeting in which only Keith Breault and Brett Campbell attended. Several times during this meeting, Keith stated that we were free to leave the church with his blessing even though we never had any intention of nor stated that we wanted to leave the church. We waited for over a month for a response from the pastors but heard nothing from them.
During this month of fervent prayer and Bible study, it became obvious to us that Keith Breault, Brett Campbell, and Trevor Haynes had disqualified themselves from pastoral leadership. Over the past 11 years, we had seen X, X, and X dismissed as pastors. In each case we were told that there were no character issues causing their dismissal. We were told that they were disqualified because of a lack of pastoral giftings. In the case of Keith Breault, Brett Campbell, and Trevor Haynes, serious issues of character and judgment had been raised. Based on scripture, their actions, conduct and behavior disqualified them as pastors because they were no longer above reproach (Titus 2:7-8). They have demonstrated a pattern of lack of godly wisdom, godly judgment, and godly discernment. Because of the seriousness of these issues, we asked for yet another meeting.
At the next meeting, on December 16th with the pastors, Gene Emerson and others, we read a letter with the concerns and appealed to Keith Breault, Brett Campbell, and Trevor Haynes to step down as pastors. We believed that their stepping down would allow the church to be spared from the many details surrounding these issues.
In this letter, we stated that if a response was not given within three days, we would begin the process of going to the membership. This three day time period was given because the pastors never responded to our meeting of November 9th. At the end of the meeting, X asked Gene for his assessment of what had happened and how our pastors had gotten to this point (she asked, “Gene, what do you think happened here?”). Gene’s response was that these men had sinned. Gene also said that he had sinned against and hurt his very own people in his church when he was a young pastor. He said that these pastors just needed to be taught and needed to learn a different way. This response was very disturbing and grievous to us. The perception to us based on what he said was that he took these issues very casually, and that basically it was no big deal since he had done the very same things to his flock when he was a young pastor. For a man in his position, this response was irresponsible and showed a total lack of care for the people of SGC. We left the meeting discouraged, believing that Gene had not taken these issues seriously.
The following day Gene responded with a short email stating that plans were being put into place to look at these issues. Again, his response was very casual and in no way indicated that he realized the seriousness of the issues. We responded later in the week with a letter to him from the three couples. Gene had the opportunity at this meeting as well as in the days following to convey to us that he realized the extreme nature of these issues. He did not do this and in fact, his actions following the meeting convinced us that he continued to take the issues casually. Furthermore, Gene participated in a meeting at our church on December 20th which we believe to be very ungodly.
On Saturday, December 20th, the pastors of SGC called a by- invitation- only meeting to a select group of the membership of SGC (60+ people). Neither we nor the other two couples involved in the November 9th and December 16th meetings were invited. Also, only three people in our care group were invited. This meeting was a most unbiblical and ungodly meeting for several reasons:
1. There is no scriptural precedent for even having a meeting such as this.
2. There was no communication prior to the meeting with the three couples informing us that we were to be accused before a large number of the membership.
3. The three couples were not invited to this meeting to state our case and yet Gene and the pastors slandered our character, our reputation, and our names before this whole group at the meeting.
4. The whole membership of the church was not invited even though Keith Breault’s email file name for the meeting was “Family Meeting” with the three couples names stated.
5. Gene and the pastors brought church discipline against us without following Matthew 18:15-17. Gene nor any of the pastors EVER contacted us prior to this meeting to discuss ANY of the issues. They went straight to the “select” portion of the membership without notifying us in ANY manner.
6. Gene and the pastors told the people at the meeting that we had sinned and that they should pray for our repentance. Prior to this meeting, they had not in any way told us that they thought that we had sinned and that we should repent; in fact they thanked us for bringing our concerns forward at the meeting on December 16th.
7. When asked by those present (twice) at the December 20th meeting for a time to ask questions, Gene and the pastors said no.
8. During this meeting on December 20th, they did not present the issues of concern that the three couples had brought to the pastors on November 9th and December 16th. In fact, they did not accurately articulate the events or the time frame that led up to this private meeting of December 20th.
9. An announcement was made at this meeting that X and another care group leader had been removed from care group leadership. No communication as to this action had been given to either man or to their care groups prior to this meeting. In fact, all the people present at the December 20th meeting unrelated to these two care groups knew of this action before the two care group leaders or their care group members were even told. These two men were later notified of this action via email by Chris Mangold. This notification was sent on Sunday evening to X’s work email. There was no consideration shown to these two men or to the members of their care groups.
10. Many church members have conveyed to us that they are outraged by the very nature of this meeting. Gene, the apostle, accused us by name; slandered our character and lied about our actions. This clearly constitutes slander and defamation of character. There were many witnesses at this meeting. Is this the conduct befitting an apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ?
We have heard from numerous sources that Gene and the pastors called this meeting because we were going to send out an email with an attached letter to the membership right away. They never contacted us asking us if this was our intention nor did they communicate with us at all about this. They assumed that this was to be our action and they assumed wrongly! This was absolutely not true and was never stated by us. Our letter to the pastors stated “Should we hear nothing definitive from you within three days, we will begin that process. “ As of the time of that meeting, we had no definitive plan for the next steps of this process. It was never our intention for the church to know of this at that time, especially right before Christmas.
After we heard about the by-invitation-only meeting to which we were not invited, an email was sent with our letter of issues to 8 recipients who had previously expressed concerns to us. Until this email today, we have not sent a letter out to a broad range of people or to the membership. After Gene and the pastors “warned” the congregation that an email and letter were coming, they aroused curiosity. People are actually calling us requesting a copy of the letter of issues that was presented to the pastors.
During the meeting on December 20th at 6:04 PM, an email was sent to everyone in the church membership by the financial advisory team (see below) informing the church that a letter was being sent to them that was divisive and untrue. These men had not communicated with us to determine our intentions nor had they spoken with us at all since the December 16th meeting. In fact, as far as we know, these men only became involved in this on December 16th. These men are not pastors nor do they have any authority, yet they had access to the church’s email system and directory. This leads us to believe that the pastors condoned this mass email. In fact, Chris Mangold has stated to others that the pastors did indeed condone this mass email and in fact gave permission for the email to go out. This email was followed by a second email Saturday night by Keith Breault to the entire membership basically communicating the same information from the financial team’s email. Again, Keith had not spoken with any of us and yet he assumed that we were sending out a mass email and letter without even verifying our intentions. The header of the body of Keith’s email stated “Family Meeting – the three couples names”. Again, our names were publically revealed and misrepresentations were given to the whole membership concerning us.
The result of these actions by Gene, as well as by the pastors of SGC and Messer’s X, X and X resulted in a major upheaval throughout the whole church. Gene Emerson, the pastors of SGC as well as these other three men did this to our church; we did not! Did we try to do things as scripture dictates and follow biblical principles? Absolutely! Did we at anytime have a motive or intention of divisiveness? Absolutely not! Were we bitter and vindictive? Absolutely not! Did we pick up an offense of another? Absolutely not! Did we do things with a heart full of love for Jesus Christ and a love for His people? Absolutely! Did we do this to stop the abuses of the flock at SGC and to expose grave darkness? Absolutely! Could Gene, other apostles or the pastors have intervened at any point and stopped our involvement? Absolutely! By demonstrating true concern for the flock of SGC; by demonstrating that they understood the serious nature of the issues; and by demonstrating that they would take decisive action concerning the issues presented, we would have gladly handed this over to them. Neither Gene nor any of our pastors did this!
Please hear us clearly. We are very thankful that the pastors have met with members of the flock who have been victims of abusive pastoral counseling or who have been neglected by the SGC pastors. We are very thankful that they have confessed and repented. It is our hope that much forgiveness, healing and restoration will take place in the hearts of the people who have been abused and in the church as a whole. Also, we are very thankful that the pastors realized that they were in error in presenting a “new” doctrine on marriage and separation based on erroneous interpretation of suffering. Even though they were already presenting this “new” doctrine in the New Members class, we are thankful that they stopped the process of submitting this to the whole church. However, this does not change the fact that these pastors have disqualified themselves according to Scripture and are no longer above reproach.
We have no shame, condemnation or guilt as a result of our actions. We have walked in the fear of God throughout this entire process. Our hearts are broken over the condition of our beloved church, our beloved friends and our beloved pastors. We have loved SGM, SGC, the people and these pastors. We have cared for our pastors and served them for years. Gene and the pastors of SGC have done much damage to this church but we are confident in God’s faithfulness and His great love for His flock. We are confident that He will be glorified and that He will bring forth redemption, restoration and reconciliation in His church.
After much prayer and in the fear of God and out of our love for you and this church, we believe that we are obligated to bring to you the list of serious concerns that we brought forth to the pastors on December 16th :
1. Implementing an erroneous interpretation of scripture as though it were settled doctrine/policy on marriage, separation and divorce (toward several women in the church). A “position paper” was promised by Keith that was to justify the “no marital separation” policy, but was never presented nor even verbally explained to the church body at the time of implementation. Implementing this unofficial doctrine/new interpretation of scripture resulted in the threat of church discipline to all three of these women even though there was no definitive proof of the particular sin (adultery and/or abandonment), which really does justify church discipline. The threat of church discipline was used to control and manipulate these women into doing the will of the pastors and not the will of God. These women were fearful of further abuse from their husbands and yet their voices were not heard. Each woman left Sovereign Grace Church under duress. Titus 1:9 very clearly states that pastors/elders are to operate in sound doctrine: “holding fast the faithful word as he has been taught, that he may be able, by sound doctrine, both to exhort and to convict those who contradict.”
2. Error in the doctrine of suffering: That women and children must stay in abusive situations (even unto death) because they are called to suffer until such time as God would remove the abusing spouse is questionable at best. This interpretation of suffering goes against the principle of life that God established in the Ten Commandments (“thou shalt not murder”) and does not protect the sanctity of life. In fact, this particular focus on suffering has little, if anything, to do with suffering for the faith but would force the victim (and his/her children) to potentially suffer criminal violence at the hands of the abusive spouse.
3. Lack of care and compassion bordering on neglect for the weak and broken in the church. This was evidenced through the situation with the X Family. Very little practical or financial help was given to this family even though at times they lacked money to buy even food. Scripture makes it very clear that God is very concerned with the needy and downtrodden: 1 Samuel 2:8, Psalm 12:5-6, Psalm 10:14,18, Psalm 40:17, 70:5, 72:12, 74:21, etc. Additionally, last year’s total church expenditure for benevolence of $1,051 gives further evidence that care and compassion for the needy barely exists. That amount is shameful in a church our size. Is it our church’s policy not to give benevolence to needy members and instead have them rely on others – their care group, friends, family, etc.? If so, that policy should be clarified.
4. Disingenuous communication to the membership. It was very disturbing that the congregation was informed at the Sunday Night Family Meeting in October, that the pastoral staff was “caring” for Esther, X and the children, and indeed, had cared for them. The interpretation of that statement might come down to what “caring” means, and how the pastors define it. However, what was very much implied was that practical assistance, as well as compassion, was given. This was not true, but was clearly implied by the way in which it was communicated to the congregation by Keith’s statement. What we expected to be a favorable evening, in light of the fact that Esther was not brought under church discipline, proved to be saddening to those involved in Esther’s’s plight. The statement about care was deceptive, painting the pastoral staff in a “good light” in the midst of a dark circumstance. Titus 2:7-8 states, “in all things showing yourself to be a pattern of good works; in doctrine showing integrity, reverence, incorruptibility, sound speech that cannot be condemned, that one who is an opponent may be ashamed, having nothing evil to say of you.”
5. Renaming the Building Fund a “Mission Fund”. This basically falls under category 4 above, but when new members and visitors hear of an opportunity to give to our mission fund, they picture missionaries, foreign missions, etc. Disillusionment and anger result when people discover that our “mission” is to pay off the building at an accelerated rate.
6. Practicing a counseling model that condemns and disciplines the victim as if they are the abuser. In cases where abuse has been perpetrated against a member of our church, the victim has often not been cared for but rather treated as though their sin was somehow responsible for, or mitigated the abuse. Rather than listening to those being abused, the pastors have chosen to embrace the abusers, caring for and discipling them to the neglect of the victims. Repeatedly, counsel for the victim has focused on the victim’s sin even though blatant and at times criminal abuse had occurred against them. The root of this counseling method seems to be the reverse of “I’m ok, You’re ok”. It has become “You (the abuser) aren’t ok, but you (the victim) YOU’RE NOT OK EITHER!” The good intentions come from a faulty assumption that since indwelling sin is so pervasive, everybody (including every victim) has a log (perhaps many logs) in their eye and we pastors must aggressively “help” them focus primarily on their own sins. Instead of realizing that Biblical cases often include both guilty and innocent parties, this model deals only with two (or more) basically guilty parties. The victim must be made ready in advance to carefully and willingly extend lavish grace, compassion and forgiveness on their abuser (there were many victims of this).
7. Non-biblical and irresponsible stewardship. In the church’s 2007 Financial Report, total expenses amounted to $1,936,518 while total revenues were only $1,707,372. This adds up to a net over-expenditure of $229,146. This puts the church in a potentially dangerous financial position. Even though the church was operating in the red in early 2007, we believe that a rather significant amount was spent on the 20th Anniversary Celebration in the third quarter. From what we can see on the Report, it appears that it may have amounted to nearly $20,000. The church recently sponsored Dave Ramsey’s teaching series on financial stewardship for our members and guests. If we were to submit our church’s recent financial track record to Mr. Ramsey, we believe that SGC would fail the test of sound financial responsibility.
8. Scattering the sheep. The removal of X from care group leadership illustrates both a lack of discernment and wisdom. By all accounts, X is a man of impeccable character and a proven leader. Members of his former group agree that the group was in excellent condition when suddenly the group was shut down and scattered. The reasons given for his removal and the means by which it was done are, at the very least, suspect. This and other groups have been treated to the same method. Our church is and has been built upon relationships, and to fail to maintain the established relationships within care groups scatters the sheep. If a new leader is needed (and in some cases the need is legitimate), that leader should firstly be sought from within the group itself (he’s already a trusted part of the group). If no one within the group qualifies, surely someone else being brought in is preferable to disbanding (which amounts to scattering). You have seriously and unwisely underestimated the emotional and spiritual impact of disbanding and scattering on sheep who have invested heavily in their care group experience.
9. Presenting a distorted gospel. The gospel as presented from our pulpit has been very one-sided. It’s been weighted so heavily upon the doctrine of sin that a lack of hope and joy are driving numbers of people out of the church. We love and appreciate the doctrine of sin, but without balance, the eyes of the flock are left upon their sinfulness and the death on the cross. The gospel is meant to be good news, but our over-emphasis upon the sinfulness of man leaves people feeling discouraged, disheartened and depressed. Remember that the cross itself is not unique; many thousands were crucified. The uniqueness of Christ’s cross is that He is no longer dead. There is no reason to celebrate the cross if there is no resurrection (1 Cor. 15:13-19). This aspect of the gospel is largely missing in our church. Alongside of the doctrine of sin, we should have been hearing at the very least an equal portion of the “overcomers”, our victory in Jesus, the “new creation in Christ”, and the power of the Holy Spirit to “master” sin (Gen. 4:7) etc.
We strongly believe that through the power of the Holy Spirit and through genuine humility, the damage that has been done to SGC can be corrected. We believe that Scripture would call for Gene Emerson and the pastors to go before our church with the following actions:
• speak the truth concerning the events leading up to and including the December 20th meeting;
• present and discuss the issues that the three couples brought to the pastors on November 9th and December 16th to the church; and
• speak the truth about the intentions and character of the three couples and repent for slandering and defaming our names and reputations in the December 20th meeting.
We are hopeful that the unity of the body can be restored and that great healing will take place throughout SGC. We love each of you and pray for God’s grace and most abundant blessings to cover you as you walk through this process. We pray that He will give you great wisdom and discernment and we appeal to you to open your eyes and your hearts to hear God clearly.
__________________________________________________
The following letter was sent to the entire membership of SGCC at 6:06 PM on December 20 via email by the SGCC Financial Advisory Team. Here is the preface, placed in the body of the email: We are writing in response to recent allegations that have been made against the pastors. Please read the important attached document and join us in continuing to pray. I personally love a prayer request mixed in with character assassination. I’m sure God is fond of the practice as well.
__________________________________________________
To the leaders and congregation of Sovereign Grace Church:
As longtime members of Sovereign Grace Church we are writing in response to recent allegations that have been made against the pastors by three other couples in the church. Earlier this week the three couples met with the Pastors, Gene Emerson, and with us. At the meeting they presented a letter in which a number of grievances were set forth and which demanded the immediate resignation of Keith Breault, Trevor Haynes and Brett Campbell as pastors of Sovereign Grace Church. If their demands were not met, the couples promised to present these allegations and demands directly to the entire congregation after three days. The demands were made as if these allegations had already been fully investigated, confirmed to be true in every respect and that judgment was now required to be executed. Although Gene and Doug both appealed to them to reconsider their position in light of Biblical truth on the matter, they have refused.
Although these are dearly loved friends, we strongly disagree with and oppose the approach and process they have demanded for the following reasons:
1. 1 Timothy 5: 19-21 provides instruction about the process to be used when bringing a charge against an elder/pastor. This involves an appeal to apostolic ministry for evaluation and correction as warranted, as opposed to an appeal directly to the congregation.
2. This scriptural process is the only one supported by Sovereign Grace Ministries. The alternative to this process would be to divorce ourselves from both scripture and the apostolic care and support of Sovereign Grace Ministries.
3. No matter how well intended, the practicle outcome of the approach demanded can only lead to division and great harm to our beloved church body.
4. The pastors have already invited Gene Emerson, Dave Harvey and other leaders to activley participate in this process.
Since the time of our involvement we have seen first hand that the pastors have demonstrated a teachable heart and fully embraced the process of evaluation. We have not observed any inclination to excuse themselves during this process, in fact we have seen them take initiative to embrace change and seek forgiveness with offended parties. We are personally challenged by the humility they have demonstrated during this time.
We ask that you join us in continuing to pray for the apostolic team, our pastors and all of those involved as we all seek to glorify God through this process.
__________________________________________________
On December 20 at 11:44 PM the following letter was emailed to the congregation of SGCC by their senior pastor, Keith Breault. This is really a nice 1 2 3 combo. The Finance team emails the church at 6:06 PM, Gene Emerson slanders the 3 couples before an invitation-only audience, and the sr pastor closes the show with a midnight email. All in one night. I’m thinking this is probably a coincidence. The following is the letter from the sr pastor.
___________________________________________________
As I write this I am acutely aware of and thankful for the joy and comfort we share in Jesus Christ!
I have written this letter to the membership of Sovereign Grace Church, Chesapeake VA, to update you on a recent chain of events. Our hope is to prepare you for a disturbing e-mail that some have threatened to circulate throughout the church.
Three couples, have brought a list of concerns to our pastoral team with a demand that three pastors, Trevor Haynes, Brett Campbell, and myself resign within three days or they would share their charges with the church.
Though there is something to be learned from some of these charges, the pastors, Gene Emerson and I cannot agree with most of their accusations. Though we want to believe the best of their intentions, after extensively and exhaustively listening to their charges on two separate occasions (most recently in the presence of four objective witnesses, including Gene Emerson), we are concerned by the inaccuracy of their allegations.
One of the charges refers to three recent counseling situations in which we erred by requiring people to adhere to a standard relating to marital separation not explicitly expressed in Scripture. Though our motives were to see these marriages restored, our counseling had a heavy-handed effect – harkening to a narrower path than God commands. Furthermore, our expressions of practical care, though existent, fell short of what they could have and should have been. This grieves us tremendously and we have asked forgiveness and God’s grace, we have experienced joyful reconciliation and look to Him to continue that work.
My concern for us to walk in truth is compounded by my concern for us to walk in unity. The allegations made by this group ends with the demand that three pastors resign under the threat of public exposure. In their words:
“It is our hope and desire to preserve as much unity as possible in the days ahead. That will largely depend on your response to our proposal… Your stepping down will allow us to spare the church exposure to many of the details surrounding the issues outlined above. We encourage you to consider carefully your failure to embrace this proposal.”
However, God has appointed structures of leadership for the care and fruitfulness of the church, that produce safety in the way the church is governed. Nowhere in Scripture do see members usurping the oversight of pastors. God has ordained a plurality of leadership so that we can all be built up in Christ. There is a very helpful resource on church government entitled, “Polity: Serving and Leading the Local Church.” You can order a copy or download it free of charge. Here is the link:
(A link was inserted to Dave Harvey’s polity statement)
As pastors, we remain in a posture of knowing that we, as shepherds, are also sheep. We, too, need the Gospel and we need transforming grace constantly. While recognizing that pastors must be held to higher standards of conduct and biblical discernment, we are also being sanctified. Our mutual need for the Gospel is the basis of our fellowship. As pastors, we derive both admonition and comfort in these words from Paul to Timothy (as an apostle when he received this command): “Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the Word of truth.”
As a pastoral team, we welcome correction and the goodness of pursuing reconciliation when our shortcomings offend. Many of the things God has brought to light over the last two months have resulted in repentance and more grace in caring for you, His church. As always, we have pursued Gene’s counsel. We have also sought the input of other pastors who have been generous with their time and counsel. This process should encourage us all to take initiative to communicate openly. Please anticipate your pastors asking for ways in which we can better serve you. Also, please do not hesitate to contact us with any questions, comments or concerns.
Our prayers are with you and for this church. Our trust is in the risen, reigning Savior who holds all things together by the power of His Word. We are also praying for our brothers and sisters who brought these demands.
We invite you to bring any questions, concerns or observation, to the pastoral team or the members of the financial review committee Doug Davis, Chuck Snader and Todd Barstow.
“But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son, cleanses us from all sin.” 1 John 1:7
Rejoicing in the power of Jesus and in the unity of the Holy Spirit!
Keith Breault, on behalf of the pastoral team.
_______________________________________________________
I’ll let these documents speak for themselves for now.
January 18th, 2009 at 12:23 am
I’m beginning to lose hope that this isn’t going on in churches all over the place, even outside of sgm. If big churches are having these scandals and cover ups, seems like small ones would too, maybe even more – where everyone is close and sins against each other and it’s easier to get into fights. Maybe it’s the same in either church. We’re all just rotten sinners in need of someone to save us. I want to leave my big church, but I almost don’t have faith to go to a small church either. Its as if everything I ever knew were just a hoax.
Oh Lord bring the day when we shall see your Face and sin will be no more!!
January 18th, 2009 at 12:31 am
Jim, I guess the cats comming out of the bag huh…what simular situations that people have been cowarding through for years in the florida churches. When I read the column under recent posts there is one titled…”trying not to puke” I feel that way each and every time truth is revealed this way exactly the same for “my old church”
I am so sorry for these above couples, you are in my prayers.
January 18th, 2009 at 12:55 am
Wow! I really have no words… Wow!
Having heard Esther’s story first, this just makes me sick to my stomach. Those 3 couples are truly courageous and I respect them even more after reading this. Thank you for sticking up for the needy and downtrodden! Thank you for sticking up for women who are being abused! Thank you for putting your foot down when these controlling pastors try to rewrite doctrine to suit their agendas! You are all in my prayers.
Eponine, take heart! This is really disappointing and distressing stuff to read, but I personally have NEVER experienced anything like this outside of SGM. I don’t think this has anything to do with a big vs. small church. If you decide to look for a new church I pray that you find a safe, loving church family soon – like many other readers on this blog.
January 18th, 2009 at 1:07 am
Jim – thanks for posting. The letters speak for themselves. It just shows that this situation, Noel’s situation and many, many others are handled with lies and deceit. First, the slander and call into question those who stood with Esther – here is someone in a really, really bad situation and 3 couples stand with her and give her support. What happens? The church leadership is afraid of anything that would make them or the church look bad. So, they deal with it by lying and deceit. I attended this very church from 88 – 94 and much of what was in the letter is why I left (among a longer laundry list of issues). This is how they handle anyone who has a problem with they church. I am not at all suprised that shank ignored Esther’s plea for help, that is what he does. Shank was the founding pastor of the church and he is someone who has shown that he has an issue telling the truth. He sure did lay the foundation down there.
How many others have been damaged? a CGR steps up and is asking like a leader (instead of an SGM foot soldier), questions what is going on, and BAM! His name is dragged through the mud for things he didn’t do. This is how they always handle things – lies and secrecy. It was interesting that the CGR mentioned pastors removed for “lack of gifting” – we see that alot across SGM (just look at some of Jim’s other posts, most recently uh oh, steve shank is here). Lies and deceit.
Those still stuck in the Chesapeake church – it’s time to break free. The pastors and “apostle” are3 still running the show! Any voice of questioning will be shut down via lies and the person that asks the questions will be pushed out of the church, if they don’t submit.
I am not suprised they handled it this way – they have done this kind of slander of those who question in the past. Before the advent of the internet, it was easy for them to get away with it. Now, everyone will know. People will either choose to ignore the truth and stay comfortable or stand up for what is right.
I understand how hard it is for the current members – it’s almost like finding out your dad cheated on your mom. Then you find out they had a kid. Then you find out that it’s not the only half sibling you have. Prior, you had trusted him and he was your hero. Now, that has all changed – his actions where not that of a hero. IAt first, you don’t believe it, you know “dad would never do that”, then you come to acceptance and have to deal with the issue, or cover it up, pretend it never happened and go on your marry way, even though you will have to deal with issues.
Members of SGC – Chesapeake, VA, it’s time to break free. There are great people on this board willing to support you.
January 18th, 2009 at 1:53 am
There’s something in the Sr.P’s letter that I just don’t get:
Furthermore, our expressions of practical care, though existent, fell short of what they could have and should have been. This grieves us tremendously and we have asked forgiveness and God’s grace, we have experienced joyful reconciliation and look to Him to continue that work.
Reconciliation with whom, exactly? It almost sounds like he’s talking about being reconciled to God, but in a way that implies “yes we screwed up, but we said ’sorry’so it doesn’t count! Leave us alone!”
There’s definitely quite a bit of chest-thumping in that e-mail, too. Does he not realize that congregations have always had the ability to veto a pastor’s presumed authority… with their feet?
Talk about sounding like the Wizard of Oz… it’s all a bunch of smoke and mirrors, folks. If the “pastors” and “apostles” are acting in a manner unworthy of the Gospel, and refusing to repent or to adhere to the Biblical qualifications for elders, then they’re really wolves and false apostles. Our responsibility is to identify them and then run the other way.
January 18th, 2009 at 1:56 am
Freedom,
You hit the nail right on the head. Preemptive slander has been the MO for dealing with those who have disagreements in so many stories here, that one almost wonders if that technique takes up a good 6 out of the 9 months of the PC. I want to echo the call: it is indeed time to break free. Make no mistake, it hurts like crazy when you leave, and when your “friends” turn on you, and the men in leadership you once trusted lie about you. But obeying the conscience your Heavenly Father gave you is worth it, both in this life and the one to come.
January 18th, 2009 at 2:58 am
It’s the same story over and over again. There is so much that could be said about all this, but I will just point out this part of the Sr. Pastor’s letter:
However, God has appointed structures of leadership for the care and fruitfulness of the church, that produce safety in the way the church is governed. Nowhere in Scripture do see members usurping the oversight of pastors.
I think that word ‘usurping’ really says everything about how many pastors in SGM, and evidently the pastors as the Chesapeake church, understand their role and the role of church members. In other words, they are the head honchos, no one can ever question them, and to do so is a sinful challenging of the line of command (”structures of leadership,” to use his words).
Shameful.
January 18th, 2009 at 3:04 am
Oh, Lord, Jesus…..
January 18th, 2009 at 3:29 am
“How long oh God….How long will you let evil prosper….how long to sing this song…yet, I will trust in the Lord my Rock, even if my eyes fail-he will not fail me…”
My heart aches for Esther and these couples- I did not go to this church, but I have seen this type of preemptive slander at another SG church…it hurts so bad to see people you trust lying thru their teeth, about good people who’s only sin was to disagree with a pastor about anything….
May God’s Peace Fill you -know that many feel your pain and are praying for you-you are brave
with jesus’ love-mm
January 18th, 2009 at 3:38 am
“You can’t mutiny! I’m the Captain, and what I say goes!”
It would be hilarious if it weren’t so gut-wrenchingly sad.
January 18th, 2009 at 3:54 am
This story echoes, in so many ways, what my son and DIL went through. The lies and character assassinations as an attempt to cover up their own sins….what kind of pastor does that? Heck, what kind of Christian does that??? I feel so sick to read yet another story of SGM’s ‘apostles’ and ‘pastor’s behaving in ways so grievous that it makes me wonder even about their Christianity, let alone their ability to be leaders.
I am heartsick……..
January 18th, 2009 at 3:56 am
You Know Keith-it seems to me that one way you could “serve the flock” is to step down…just a thought…a Biblical one at that…
January 18th, 2009 at 7:19 am
Okay this is what i am most flabergasted about :
“1. 1 Timothy 5: 19-21 provides instruction about the process to be used when bringing a charge against an elder/pastor. This involves an appeal to apostolic ministry for evaluation and correction as warranted, as opposed to an appeal directly to the congregation.”
Okay the passage states:
“19Do not entertain an accusation against an elder unless it is brought by two or three witnesses. 20Those who sin are to be rebuked publicly, so that the others may take warning. 21I charge you, in the sight of God and Christ Jesus and the elect angels, to keep these instructions without partiality, and to do nothing out of favoritism. ”
Where in the world do they get that this involves and appeal to apostolic ministry?????
They did come with multiple witnesses, how are they in the wrong???
In fact a lot of commentaries take vs 20 to mean that when elders are to be rebuked they are to be rebuked publically – such as when paul rebuked peter in front of the church – which is exactly what they were doing. I am flabergasted how they insert apostolic team where scripture clearly does not warrant it.
January 18th, 2009 at 7:33 am
This is standard SGM operating procedure – modeled and trained from the top down. The use and abuse of authority evidenced in this story (if present appearances hold up after further information) are not failures, stumblings, or slip-ups in a SGM paradigm, but are, rather, well-ordered and successful application of designed leadership theories and methodologies.
Do you see how much more hazardous and insidious this is? We are not observing a troubling pattern of a system being corrupted, undermined, or sidestepped. We are observing the more tragic pattern of a system being applied, fulfilled, and enforced just as it was designed to work.
And it is being modeled, trained, applied, fulfilled, and enforced in countless “small” and big stories across the day-to-day lives of people throughout SGM community of churches.
January 18th, 2009 at 7:51 am
Pres,
Incredible, isn’t it?
….just shaking my head at the utter disregard for Scripture….
January 18th, 2009 at 9:03 am
As sad as this story is, I am hopeful that it is the beginning of change.
People are becoming courageous as they are faced with stories such as Esther’s and Noel’s.
It seems as though our stories have hit some sort of critical mass and both the multitude of stories and the gravity of some is too much for even those in the deepest stages of sleep to ignore.
I really have no words and prayer is the best response anyway.
January 18th, 2009 at 9:26 am
Presbyterian,
I remember thinking the same thing. My parents are in the care group of the couple that sent out that first email. The day after everything went down, they sent out a much shorter email saying basically that they were being removed from CG leadership, and that they had tried to appeal to the pastors in a biblical way, following every step in 1 Timothy 5:19-21.
They quoted the exact same verse!
Flabbergasted is right. A “layman” was reading the bible, and interpreting it more correctly than an official of the church. All the more reason why accountability should be to the congregation, and not to some distant member of “apostolic ministry”.
January 18th, 2009 at 10:04 am
“Additionally, last year’s total church expenditure for benevolence of $1,051 gives further evidence that care and compassion for the needy barely exists. That amount is shameful in a church our size.”
WHAT?!?!?!??!?!?! I am too outraged to continue reading. I will be back shortly after I cool off.
THE TRUTH MUST COME OUT!
Stunned
and disgusted
January 18th, 2009 at 10:07 am
Unfortunately, there will be no real change at SGM until they realize how unbiblical their polity is. There is no place in scripture for self-appointed apostles who rule with fists of iron. This is why in every single Protestant denomination the congregation has a voice. It is to bring a check to the sinfulness that still exists in the church’s leadership.
And by the way, if you read the post with the word ‘dictator’ substituted for ‘pastor’, it suddenly makes a lot of sense.
January 18th, 2009 at 10:11 am
“total revenues were only $1,707,372″
I’m sick. I actually feel sick to my stomach. I am sick. nearly 2 million in revenue and barely over a thousand dollars of it went to benevolence fund. i am $%^&*^$ sick. $20,000 for an event and 1,051 for the hungry in your own church. you guys make me sick.
January 18th, 2009 at 10:20 am
On the passage from 1 Timothy:
I kinda get where SGM is coming from (I disagree, but I see what they’re doing).
In v.21, Paul charges Timothy to “keep these instructions.” It seems Timothy was being sent to Ephesus on Paul’s behalf, so one could maybe/sorta claim he was coming with a sort of apostolic authority. And so SGM takes that and runs with it, claiming that only an apostle has authority to handle situations where elders are being accused and in need of rebuke.
Which totally misses Paul’s points in the passage (protect the flock by publicly rebuking those elders who sin against them, just don’t go overboard believing every accusation) and warps it into yet another “we clergy have authority and you laity are powerless” statement.
Yeah, these men are “beyond” reproach… like how the teacup ride is “beyond” the Magic Kingdom’s gates. :p
January 18th, 2009 at 11:37 am
Oh man.
Praying today for the three couples, Esther, and everyone else in the line of fire at Chesapeake.
Dear Eponine,
I’m praying for you as well. When our foundation is screwed up, the Lord loves us enough to shake it to its core. It feels like you have no solid ground to stand on for awhile, but then, if we cooperate, He will rebuild our foundation so that it is rooted and grounded on His Love and His Word, making it unshakeable. That’s what, potentially, is going on here. SGM is being given a good shaking. Don’t be dismayed. God is at work. Praying that all parties will respond to Him.
January 18th, 2009 at 2:29 pm
The words really do speak for themselves. The email sent by one of the three couples is thorough and very measured and temperate in its wording. I am so impressed by the wisdom that was evident as they waded through the events and carefully clarified and sorted through the issues. Their insight really lifts the fog. It’s obvious they spent a great deal of time praying and being Bereans about the entire situation.
Other than that, well, I think Zaccheus is a great example of repentance. (Luke 19:1-10). He was seeking Christ and wanted to see Him so badly, he sought Him to the extent of not worrying if he would lose his dignity or prestige by climbing a tree. And then after his encounter with the Lord Jesus he was brief, to the point and took action.
Zaccheus’ example is sobering to me. May God grant grace for those involved (and for all His children) to seek His face above all else.
January 18th, 2009 at 2:47 pm
From the Financial Advisory team’s letter:
“Earlier this week the three couples met with the Pastors, Gene Emerson, and with us. At the meeting they presented a letter in which a number of grievances were set forth and which demanded the immediate resignation of Keith Breault, Trevor Haynes and Brett Campbell as pastors of Sovereign Grace Church. If their demands were not met, the couples promised to present these allegations and demands directly to the entire congregation after three days.”
Does it appear that the Fin Adv Team is saying that the 3 couples would present their concerns to the church if the pastors do not resign within 3 days?
From the sr pastor’s letter:
“Three couples, have brought a list of concerns to our pastoral team with a demand that three pastors, Trevor Haynes, Brett Campbell, and myself resign within three days or they would share their charges with the church.”
I’ll be polite and use the term disingenuous. ALL of these men had the December 16 letter. The exact wording is-“We regret having to confront you, but our consciences allow us no other course. We believe that our proposal is Spirit-led and can bring unity, peace, and a great measure of healing to the church body. We ask you to not delay your resignations. Should you refuse, we will take that as your signal for us to honor our scriptural responsibility to “take it to the church”. Should we hear nothing definitive from you within three days, we will begin that process.”
Do you see in the statement above, “resign within three days or they would share their charges with the church.” ?
I see a request for a definitive response, and I wonder why Keith and the fin adv team would feel the need to overstate their case by misrepresenting what the three couples actually said.
January 18th, 2009 at 3:09 pm
I see an almost Roman Catholic tone in the letters from the Finance team and the sr pastor. As you probably know, catholics believe that “sacred tradition” (what is taught by the catholic church) is equal in authority to Scripture. I see the same tone in the two letters.
The finance team writes:
“1. 1 Timothy 5: 19-21 provides instruction about the process to be used when bringing a charge against an elder/pastor. This involves an appeal to apostolic ministry for evaluation and correction as warranted, as opposed to an appeal directly to the congregation.
2. This scriptural process is the only one supported by Sovereign Grace Ministries. The alternative to this process would be to divorce ourselves from both scripture and the apostolic care and support of Sovereign Grace Ministries.”
The sr pastor writes:
“However, God has appointed structures of leadership for the care and fruitfulness of the church, that produce safety in the way the church is governed. Nowhere in Scripture do see members usurping the oversight of pastors. God has ordained a plurality of leadership so that we can all be built up in Christ. There is a very helpful resource on church government entitled, “Polity: Serving and Leading the Local Church.” You can order a copy or download it free of charge. Here is the link:”
Why must the Fin Adv Team appeal to an interpretation of 1 Timothy 5: 19-21 that is held by very few outside of SGM, and supported by no Biblical scholars? Why must the sr pastor appeal to a denominational polity statement?
SGCC’s own statement of faith contains the following:
“The Scriptures are the authoritative and normative rule and guide of all Christian life, practice, and doctrine. They are totally sufficient and must not be added to, superseded, or changed by later tradition, extra-biblical revelation, or worldly wisdom. Every doctrinal formulation, whether of creed, confession, or theology must be put to the test of the full counsel of God in Holy Scripture.”
Do these men actually believe their own statement of faith?
January 18th, 2009 at 3:17 pm
Well I am glad to see that this issue is finally surfacing.
The leaders of the Chesapeake Church certainly wrote a very “religiouseeze” letter trying to “admit” their poor actions. That type of tone certainly makes what they are saying quite suspect.
I really question SGM’s choice of what poor actions require a pastor to step down. Tomczak was made to step down due to supposed problems with one of his children misbehaving and possibly not being transparent about this problem. Two other pastors have been “asked” to step down due to vague reasons such as supposed “fear of man” an not being “gifted.” Now we have pastors that counsel women to stay in a bad marriages, despite abuse and substance issues, and SGM doesn’t seem to think they should step down. What happened at this SGC sure seems worse than what issues that forced these other pastors to step down.
I am not sure that it would be in the best interest for the leadership to immediately resign and leave within three days but certainly if what is reported here is true, a plan for replacing some if not all of the leaders in a reasonable period of time makes sense.
Can one even really say these pastors “apologized” if they had to do this under force? If one can’t even look back and see and grieve their error (without an apology being forced) here then it appears they lack the empathy for being a leader.
I would be curious to know how SGC spends the income they receive each year and how they feel justified in only spending around $1K of their $1.7 M income on help for members.
I certainly think it is deception to call a fund for paying off the local church’s debt on their building a “missions” fund. I wonder how they can justify using that terminology? It certainly what I would think of when I hear that word.
January 18th, 2009 at 3:20 pm
The sr pastor writes:
“Though we want to believe the best of their intentions, after extensively and exhaustively listening to their charges on two separate occasions (most recently in the presence of four objective witnesses, including Gene Emerson), we are concerned by the inaccuracy of their allegations.”
Are we to believe that Gene Emerson and the 3 financial advisory team members should be regarded as “objective witnesses”? I believe their actions since the December 16th meeting are a clear indication of their objectivity (or lack thereof).
It’s my opinion that Keith Breault’s words and actions since the December 16 meeting have only validated the concerns of the three couples.
January 18th, 2009 at 3:31 pm
I only see the phrase, “we will begin that process.”
Overstating is a defense, as is an appeal to tradition.
When you place yourself under the authority of God’s Word, you have to stop defending yourself. You’re opening yourself up to the two-edge sword that discerns the thoughts and intentions of the heart. God is the one who then provides the defense or correction or comfort or conviction.
January 18th, 2009 at 4:04 pm
Something else that is very suspect… why weren’t the “three couples” invited to the “Family Meeting” on December 20th with Gene Emerson and the pastors? THEIR ACCUSERS WEREN’T INVITED TO THIS MEETING! Am I the only one that finds this… ummmmm… suspicious?
If you don’t have anything to hide, if you are going to “tell the truth, nothing but the truth, so help you God”, if your motives are above reproach, if your truly want unity, why not face your accusers and answer their allegations in front of the other members of the church?
Something is looking and smelling pretty fishy in Chesapeake… and it ain’t fish!
January 18th, 2009 at 4:26 pm
And also, lets remember that Keiths letter “opens the door to questions at anytime” and yet at this meeting, questions were hushed, not answered. The pastors and Gene simply said, this was an information meeting and they wouldnt be taking questions….that they would take questions at a more appropriate time…how about that for smelling fishy….I will write again what I wrote about 100 posts ago
I am sure the “appropriate” time is one on one where no one else can hear the question or the answer…no accountability and easier to manipulate and seem “sincere” when you DIVIDE AND CONQUER…makes sense doesnt it?! Sad, sad, sad not to mention shameful….
January 18th, 2009 at 4:43 pm
The writer of the first letter expresses outrage that Gene and the pastors did this to ‘our church.’
That is the precise problem: it is not your church. It is their church. You exist to finance it. They run it.
January 18th, 2009 at 5:01 pm
JG,
I found that kind of “interesting” as well. And then Keith stated THREE TIMES in his letter to the church:
“As a pastoral team, we welcome correction and the goodness of pursuing reconciliation when our shortcomings offend.”
“Please anticipate your pastors asking for ways in which we can better serve you. Also, please do not hesitate to contact us with any questions, comments or concerns.”
“We invite you to bring any questions, concerns or observation, to the pastoral team or the members of the financial review committee…”
Yeah… that’s gonna happen! Look how well it worked out for the “three couples”!!! I’m sure it would work just as well for anyone else who “contacted (these leaders) with questions, concerns, comments, or observations”!
If you believe that, I’ve got some good land down here in Florida to sell you…
January 18th, 2009 at 5:11 pm
Again, this is just so similar to what my son and DIL went through…on a much grander scale, to be sure, but still, so similar. A family meeting was held about them as well….one that they were not present at or invited to.
Not to downplay anything that any of these people have gone through, but as so many have said, this is such a PATTERN!! These are not isolated incidents, this is the ‘norm’ for SGM. It is wrong and it is time to bring their abuses to an end!!
January 18th, 2009 at 5:12 pm
As leaders in SGC Ches., I can honestly state that I am worried! This is the worst mess SGC Ches. has ever been in, and it is solely the fault of the pastoral staff, as well as Gene Emerson! We will be praying very fervently and fasting as well, as we will most likely be resigning both our post at the church, as well as our membership.
Now that, in the words of Steve Shank, “the proverbial doo doo has hit the fan,” I certainly hope many other voices will be raised; not just the three couples and Esther. These families, and not the pastors, must be held up as humble servants by the memebrs of SGC Ches., and the SG Movement. Why are we holding up our pastors and surpressing the couples who brought darkness to light? I say this to many at SGC Ches, leaders like ourselves: Jim Benson, Barry Herman, and others, that if we stay, we must continue to pursue truth and righteousness, and not at the expense of our members, many of which have been very hurt through this process, and seek to encourage those who exposed this, who pressed forth in what would become a very damaging process to them all: Esther, as well as the three couples, all who I know, and who I know are in pain through this process, by what has happened to them.
I, unlike others, am not sick by what has happened, but severely grieved, embarrasssed, as well as ashamed at out pastors, Gene Emerson, as well as the three men on this financial team, who, as it appears, brought just as damaging charges against members of the church as the pastors did.
I believe the Holy Spirit, though working through members of the church, is very grieved, and this will continue to become manifest at SGC Ches. We need to pray for a restoration, but believe it will only come once MAJOR changes come, and I don’t think these men are the ones to do it.
Just maybe, they have disqualified themselves. Maybe these couples were correct.
Now that I have read the letter in its entirety, maybe Gene…you’re the one who is wrong! You’re the one who is devisive! You’re the one we need to be allied with, against!
I am Grieved!!!!!
PS: Jim thank you for your take on the men who sit on the finance team. They acted very shameful and wrong. This saddens me because I always viewed these men as pillars in our church, as well as friends. WHAT THEY REALLY ARE, AS I NOW PERCEIVE THEM: They are a true embarressment to the church. I hope they are able to bring themselves to the palce where they publically come clean as well. Maybe this will come at our family meeting next Sunday night!
January 18th, 2009 at 5:30 pm
PATTY!!!
Welcome back! We’ve missed you! How’s the family doing?
You are so right in your above comment!… this is SGM’s standard operating procedure… it’s been done again and again and again and again, and over and over and over again.
It’s time to expose this “family of churches”… to reveal the truth of what goes on behind the curtain of leadership. It’s time for this to stop! It’s time for God’s people to rise up and stop living in fear of these “leaders”.
It has to stop… please, God, have mercy!
January 18th, 2009 at 6:02 pm
Long Sufferer-
Here’s what will happen on the 25th- CJ will pick up where Gene left off.
You’ll hear statements like: ” I have nothing but respect for Keith”.
January 18th, 2009 at 6:18 pm
So it will take a few brave souls who will stand up with solidarity, with confidence, with boldness, without apology, without bowing to CJ’s pleas to sit down, and state, “We were lied to. Our friends have been maligned. We no longer hold trust in our pastors and financial team. We demand action and answers and we will not leave here until these things are dealt with clearly, without rhetoric, excuse and manipulations.”
January 18th, 2009 at 6:19 pm
Remnant-exactly.
January 18th, 2009 at 6:34 pm
Maybe I haven’t read well enough, but why did the finance team have a big old say in this? Did the worship team, children’s ministry team, or parking lot crew also get to weigh in on this?
I’m all for congregational input–and I think this element is one of the key ingredients missing at SGM, but I am surprised that an email would be sent out by a ministry team.
January 18th, 2009 at 6:53 pm
I have to tell any of you who might still question the hearts of these three precious couples (just in case there are any like that here listening), I prayed with one of the couples about all this before the letter was sent and the Dec. 20 meeting called. They were grieved to the heart and wanted only God’s perfect will to be done. They were quiet, careful not to mention any names, and soberly, painfully aware of the seriousness of what they were being called to do. They coveted our continued prayer over the entire situation. I am no longer a part of an SGM church and have not been for some time. I had no idea what was going on. I would trust these people with my life. They are in all likelihood the most committed believers I have ever known.
As they told me a few of the details and eagerly discussed how they believed reconciliation might occur as a result of our prayers and of their future humble interactions with the pastors, I thought to myself, “This will not happen. They will be called slanderers and enemies of the church.” I hate that my thought came true!
I know this couple’s heart was FOR the church they so dearly love. I know them well. They serve tirelessly in many different ways. I think that’s one reason this particular situation has opened the eyes of a sleeping congregation wide and drawn the attention of CJ. Because these couples (I only know who two of them are — wish someone would tell me who the third is, but that’s just idle curiosity) are such stalwarts of the faith, so involved in serving the body, so strong in the Lord and balanced and giving and loving and kind (I could go on and on!) that NO ONE believes they could possibly EVER slander anyone or misrepresent the truth.
I told someone earlier this week that the way people are standing behind this couple (Thank you, SZ!) is a testimony to their flawless walk with God. I only WISH I could be as these folks are. I stumble and fumble my way through my faith journey and watch in awe as they reach heavenward and bring the love of Jesus to the hurting, the helpless, those in need and those they walk with every day through life. They are dear, DEAR people. Such shining examples to us all. If I say more, they’ll know for sure who I am. They probably already do. But I can’t say enough good things about them. And something that has not been mentioned here is that their family business could be destroyed by the words spoken against them if believed by the church and if the church shuns them. This could cost them their livelihood and they still took the risk because they felt called to by God and His word.
I know some will say that printing it all here is gossip. I have prayed fervently about that and truly believe that God, the ruler of the universe, and Jesus Christ, His son, the king of all kings, have been waiting for this moment. The veil that has covered over these sins for so long has now been lifted. Hallelujah! Only holiness can come when sin is uncovered and repented of — and holiness is a GOOD thing. It’s just that those in high places within this organization — now that their sins have been uncovered — are going to have to make a choice. Do they admit wrongdoing, potentially opening themselves to actual lawsuits and certainly being forced to step down from leadership (and all that means financially — much like those banking CEOs only without the golden parachute)? Or do they continue to walk in sin by refusing to humbly repent (or repeat the rhetoric of repentance rather than let the Holy Spirit break their hearts over their sin) and admit that they have caused harm? If they do that, they save face and keep their jobs, but remain entrenched in sin. To walk in holiness is a high calling, a narrow way, a rocky road. Will they choose the narrow way?
I think what I’m really asking is will they choose to walk the walk they’ve demanded their members walk? Will they focus on their OWN indwelling sin and confess their own sins in accountability to the body they’ve so grievously injured?
I have a friend whose heart races every time a SGM church member who works in her office walks in to ask her a question. She was shunned after leaving. She knows they’ve been told lies about her but doesn’t really know what the lies were because she was shunned. I received an email from one of you here at refuge who knew me before and it began with his name, followed by “please don’t believe everything they said about me.” (To which I responded “Well, don’t believe ANYTHING they said about ME!”) It’s a shame that our conversation had to start out that way, isn’t it?
I guess I’m saying all these things to let you know that this organization’s doctrine has tentacles. I’ve been away for more than ten years and so has the gentleman who contacted me, yet our greeting still started that way. There will be a need for healing and counsel and comfort if people leave the church. The other option is a total reversal of the way SGM does business. I don’t know if that’s possible, but what if it is? What if they adopt a different model, something like Terry Virgo’s New Frontiers? If that happens, they’ll need to offer counseling to those so entrenched in the focus on indwelling sin and pride. But I’m optimistic. It IS possible. God is in the business of miraculous transformations and He often brings them about only once our entire situation is completely hopeless and broken. Then all the glory goes to Him.
I look forward to a positive outcome and will be praying fervently to that end. If it doesn’t happen, feel free to get my email from Jim if any of you in Chesapeake need a listening ear.
January 18th, 2009 at 7:05 pm
Ordinary folks – appalled by any manipulative, secretive, or heavy-handed use of authority – will assume that stories like this represent a breakdown in the system with these pastors and apostles doing things that even they recognize are unhealthy or undesirable.
The far more disturbing reality is that the sequence of events represented by the letters above is a well-honed leadership approach in the SGM culture. Many of us have experienced almost identical sequences of letters, meetings, misleading announcements, selective memory, manipulated information, etc. all cloaked in a “language of humility” that gives little evidence of being sincere.
In other words, this is standard SGM operating procedure – modeled and trained from the top down. The use and abuse of authority evidenced in this story (if present appearances hold up after further information) are not failures, stumblings, or slip-ups in a SGM way of doing things; but, rather, are a well-ordered and practiced application of an intentionally designed leadership methodology.
Do you see how much more hazardous and insidious this is? We are not observing a troubling pattern of a system being corrupted, undermined, or sidestepped. We are observing the more tragic pattern of a system being applied, fulfilled, and enforced just as it was designed to work.
Sadly it is being applied with greater and greater efficiency as it it being refined through frequent repetition in the lives of SGM people throughout this group of churches. Previously these operations were hidden in secrecy, but now they are under the observation of more and more concerned believers.
Like all of you.
January 18th, 2009 at 7:08 pm
Yes, Remnant! But will the couples be present at the CJ meeting? I’m confused about how this meeting will bring about understanding if they aren’t even there.
And I want to reiterate that I believe, as I said over at the SGMSurvivors blog many months ago, this battle is not against flesh and blood. You all are fighting FOR CJ and Steve and Dave and whoever else AGAINST the enemy of their souls. They are broken and blinded and you all in Chesapeake will be taking up your weapons alongside them (stay with me here) against a common foe. Let’s not forget that. They are not your enemy. Satan is. Your job is to beat down the enemy on their behalf through prayer so that the scales will be removed from their eyes. I sometimes think we villify these “apostles” because we’re in such pain when really they are only the instruments the enemy has used to enslave us (and themselves). Imagine the distress they’ll be in once they see what they’ve done and the need for restoration once they repent. It’s sure a tricky thing. But God is big! (Read Ephesians 6)
January 18th, 2009 at 7:15 pm
Taking Note-
You’re exactly right.
January 18th, 2009 at 7:29 pm
So, WILL the three couples be in attendance? I do hope they are planning on being there (even if not invited) and I do hope they bring an attorney with them. And a recorder.
January 18th, 2009 at 7:53 pm
Steve 240, you said: ”As a pastoral team, we welcome correction and the goodness of pursuing reconciliation when our shortcomings offend.”
We know from history that there is no problem on the part of the “apostles” to fire pastors with no clear plan for the future.
Look what happened at the Aurora, CO church. Pastor fired, nobody firmly set to replace him, church is led for 4 months by 3 men who are deemed “care group leaders.”
THAT is scary. But, it is wholly possible and conceivable that this could happen again.
January 18th, 2009 at 8:08 pm
I’m sorry, the edit timer ran out…I quoted the wrong section of Steve’s comment…..
Here’s what I meant to say:
“I am not sure that it would be in the best interest for the leadership to immediately resign and leave within three days but certainly if what is reported here is true, a plan for replacing some if not all of the leaders in a reasonable period of time makes sense. ”
Then my comment above, which I’ll copy again here: We know from history that there is no problem on the part of the “apostles” to fire pastors with no clear plan for the future.
Look what happened at the Aurora, CO church. Pastor fired, nobody firmly set to replace him, church is led for 4 months by 3 men who are deemed “care group leaders.”
THAT is scary. But, it is wholly possible and conceivable that this could happen again.
January 18th, 2009 at 8:10 pm
Steve,
Priorities.
If they choose to do something about the pastors, they can’t do it now. They first must destroy those who dared to stand up to their “authority”.
January 18th, 2009 at 8:10 pm
What’s it all about?
I didn’t say what you just quoted me as saying. If you do a search you will find that that you quoted is what the SGC pastors said in their email to members. I think you meant to quote something else I said, maybe my questioning that it might not be best if these 3 pastors left immediately.
You do make good points that SGM “Apostles” do fire pastors without regard for whether they might be better off with the existing pastor there for a period of time or not. I can understand under certain conditions immediately removing a pastor might make sense.
January 18th, 2009 at 8:25 pm
humblylearning
Thanks for sharing what you did about the 3 couples.
My thought on these 3 couples is that they went to the pastors under the illusion that the pastors were as open to correction and reproof as they indicate they are. As can be seen by this story, they were in for a rude awakening.
Unfortunately, this is an experience that a number of people have shared about SGM.
January 18th, 2009 at 8:13 pm
So you all think it will play out via status quo? The three couples will be disfellowshipped (for the oh so grave sin of speaking against the “Apostles”)? And this “family” meeting will ty to put a spin on it that CJ really cares about them and that he’s got all confidence in the integrity of current leadership.
Is that what’s expected?
What would it look like if the whole congregation stood united against SGM’s twisted logic, lies, cover-ups in favor of the three couples and truth, honesty, full disclosure and true dialogue. What if they all stood up (literally) and made sure their voices were heard. And if CJ or other leadership tries to silence them, what if they all walk out as one and follow-up by being willing to withhold financial support and their presence at all church-related events?
What if they insisted that things change in the SGM modus operandi and start the change within their strong, truly loving congregation?
What if they just say ”No!” to SGM’s unholy, Bible-twisting, unloving, authoritarian patriarchy?
What if they are all willing to be disfellowshipped? All of them? (Or a vast majority.)
January 18th, 2009 at 8:17 pm
If any of the churches is radical enough to do that, my thought is it’d be this one, Remnant.
They could always leave the denomination as an Episcopal church in their city is doing (Messiah). But then you have the sticky job of trying to keep your building — because you paid for it but it belongs to SGM…
January 18th, 2009 at 8:42 pm
I hope someone stops the meeting in its tracks and says” Excuse me, CJ, but we’re not here to listen to you; you are here to listen to us.”
January 18th, 2009 at 8:44 pm
Freedom said <blockquote>They could always leave the denomination as an Episcopal church in their city is doing (Messiah). But then you have the sticky job of trying to keep your building — because you paid for it but it belongs to SGM…</blockquote>
I am sure that could be one problem. Of course, if funds are as tight a they seem to be for this church (deficit spending last year) and if their is still a signficant debt on their building (sounds like it since their is a “missions” fund to pay it off early) then SGM may be more likely to let the break off group have the building if they assume the mortgage.
On a similar note, I am sure all these problems occurring at this church will do wonders for their budget (they were in a deficit in 2007). Of course having at least on pastor off the payroll would do wonders for their budget. Maybe if there is an exodus of members, the church will be forced to have to take one or more pastors off the payroll.
January 18th, 2009 at 8:48 pm
Steve240:
In South Denver, the only pastor was fired for what? Oh yeah, “lack of gifting.”
No pastor to replace him. Immediate removal, no prior warning, the next Sunday the family was gone to another SGM church. No new pastor for 4 months. For those 4 months, the church was being “led” by 3 care group leaders. Oh, and Shank…long distance?
There was no reason for it to be immediate. If he lacked gifting for 10 years, what’s another couple months?
I wouldn’t put anything past the powers that be.
January 18th, 2009 at 8:51 pm
“We know from history that there is no problem on the part of the “apostles” to fire pastors with no clear plan for the future. Look what happened at the Aurora, CO church. Pastor fired, nobody firmly set to replace him, church is led for 4 months by 3 men who are deemed “care group leaders.”
THAT is scary. But, it is wholly possible and conceivable that this could happen again.”
What’s it all about,
That thought occurred to me also, it would make those who would stand up for what’s right, to become confused. The apostles would deal later with the couples, and even later with those who supported them.
Pray, pray, pray!
January 18th, 2009 at 8:55 pm
Thank you Carole! We are all doing well. (except we miss Ryan and Fallon soooo much!) We are at a place in our lives where we would truly like for all things SGM to be behind us. Problem is we aren’t just talking about an organization, but people…people that we loved and cared about and whom we thought loved and cared about us. As a relational kind of person, it’s hard for me to just ’stop’ relationships.
Even so, we had friends there, or so I thought….and the way they turned on us, the way the pastors hurt innocent children by flat out wrong counseling, the way the pastors talked about us behind our backs (both negatively as well as breaking confidences shared) and most importantly, the way they assassinated the characters of my very godly son and DIL, hurt me beyond what I thought possible. I have never, never, never been treated this way by other so-called Christians, and I’ve been a Christian and active in churches for decades. I know we cannot know the heart of another, but it is hard for me to not wonder about their true beliefs if they are ok with lying, slandering, and causing unquestionably harmful ramifications by giving unqualified counsel. How is that the fruit of a Christian? None of us are perfect, I totally get that and believe that…yes, all sinners, again I totally get that and believe that. But this is a pattern of sin, eating its way through leadership throughout SGM…how is that evidence of God’s salvation and grace??
My story is that, except for Ryan and Fallon, the rest of us pretty much remained on the fringe; never wholly acceptable to the core of the church. We built part of our family through adoption (pastor told us that this was the cause of any problems we may have), we strongly believe in and support missions, we advocate and practice attachment parenting (the polar opposite of parenting philosophies such as Ezzo, which is strongly taught in most SGM churches), and I worked (uh oh) in the counseling field (double uh oh). All that combined to make us pretty unacceptable in the clique-ish core. Oh, that and because I had no problem telling the pastor and the assoc pastor exactly what I thought as far as them being totally unqualified to counsel, and that I found the assoc pastor to be incredibly arrogant and disrespectful.
Anyway, as I said, I am at a point now, praise God, where SGM doesn’t enter my thoughts for weeks at a time….but still vulnerable enough that little incidences (like being snubbed in front of a group of my friends) make the wound ooze just a little bit more. :-/
January 18th, 2009 at 8:58 pm
oops, sorry, I thought I was still on the other topic’s page (your story)! sigh….jumping in when one is sleep-deprived is not w/o it’s risks! LOL
January 18th, 2009 at 9:09 pm
Hi Freedom Fighter,
SGM church buildings are actually owned by the local churches, not Sovereign Grace Ministries.
This is one of the few concrete points that they try to use to say that they are not a “denomination” and that there is a form of “autonomy” to each local church.
Technically, each SGM church is individually incorporated, and SGM leadership has “relational oversight” but not official authority on any matters of finance, business, or building. Technically…
Technically (again) each individual church could step away at any time and carry on without SGM membership.
Again, these are the pieces of their argument that they are not a denomination (though each of these things could be said of many existing denominations as well).
January 18th, 2009 at 9:13 pm
Taking Note,
They are owned by the directors on the corporate docs. Usually the pastors.
January 18th, 2009 at 9:18 pm
All of the corp docs I’ve seen in Florida churches state that assets will be given to another 503c if the corp is disbanded.
Anyone can search by name and view corp docs in Florida at sunbiz.org
January 18th, 2009 at 9:19 pm
Main Entry:de·nom·i·na·tion Pronunciation:di-ˌnä-mə-ˈnā-shənFunction:nounDate:15th century
1: an act of denominating2: a value or size of a series of values or sizes (as of money)3: name , designation ; especially : a general name for a category
4: a religious organization whose congregations are united in their adherence to its beliefs and practice
January 18th, 2009 at 9:21 pm
That’s a good point, Jim.
The local dynamic of incorporation directors could make it very fuzzy if there was division between the local leaders and the congregation.
I was only making note that they are not owned “denominationally” by the Sovereign Grace Ministries as an extra-local organization.
January 18th, 2009 at 9:34 pm
Didn’t mean to go off on a tangent, but I know my friends there would love to stay together and just be free of the politics and nonsense and false doctrine. And I’d love to see them get to. If any of you are reading this, go over and talk to Marty O’Rourke at Messiah if you want to consider this possibility. I’m really close friends with his wife Wendy. Just tell them you’re friends of mine.
Or you know what? Go start your own church! Start over and align yourselves with New Frontiers…
It’s late and I’m getting slaphappy, I think. I guess this is a bit premature!
January 18th, 2009 at 9:54 pm
“In other words, this is standard SGM operating procedure – modeled and trained from the top down. ”
you are (sadly and tragically) correct. i can only guess that the “worst” that can happen is that the pastors will be given up as sacrificial lambs to protect the movement. order will be restored and another group of pc graduates will oversee the church there. though i hope remnants suggestion happens.
everyone stand as one voice.
refuse to give in to manipulation and partial truths.
but don’t walk out.
sit there.
refuse to leave until every single person’s voice is heard (including the 3 couples).
until every question has been answered satisfactorially.
until every hurt has been adressed.
publically.
As a group repeat the chant, “Let the couples speak. Let the couples speak. Let the couples speak.”
Don’t allow yourselves to be silenced until CJ or one of the pastor’s pick up his cell phone and calls to invite each of the couples over immediately.
make sure the call is on speaker phone for the whole church to hear.
wait for them to get there.
allow them each to have their say.
don’t go anywhere
keep talking until all of their questions have been answered.
talk
talk
talk
come on leadership, you can do it.
this is church
anything else as important to you?
sleep?
eating?
stick it out.
if cj and the pastors leave, let them.
but don’t go anywhere until every single person’s questions have been heard and answered.
every single.
and answered satisfactorially.
this is worth it.
January 18th, 2009 at 10:02 pm
jim said, “All of the corp docs I’ve seen in Florida churches state that assets will be given to another 503c if the corp is disbanded.”
Hmmm. like, could the pastors give the church building to … say… SGM if the congregants decided to stop going to and giving their money to a church that takes in nearly 2 million but only gives over a thousand to benevolence?
January 18th, 2009 at 10:59 pm
In response to the letter of concerns and item #5, this has ALWAYS been an area of concern with us as we had been attending the flagship (CLC) for just over ten years. In our first year as visitors, I remember oh so clearly the Sunday morning where it was celebrated with great joy the paying off of the mortgage on the original building. Thousands of mock mortgage notes floated from the ceiling along with balloons (if my memory serves me) while the band played on. This was in fact a tremendous accomplishment as they had been in the building only a short time, but there was a strong conviction that they should be free of debt in order to use monies more wisely. I wholeheartedly agreed. Then, later when it was apparent that growth into the second phase (current worship facility) was needed, here comes another big mortgage, but that was okay. After all, we had to “reach out” to the community with the Gospel. After the magnificent structure was built and occupied, the conviction to be debt free of the new mortgage returns with full force, only this time under the monniker of the “Mission Fund” (sound familiar?) Remember folks, this is the flagship. That was the day our “mission giving” stopped. And what a sad day it was.
January 19th, 2009 at 8:45 am
This unfolding drama is all very fascinating. There seems to be a lot of information flowing out there. My understanding is that this is a good size church. Did the couples get a consensus from the rest of the church before they asked the pastors to step down? Sounds a bit like a mutiny and perhaps the rest of the ship wasn’t clued in.
One would gather from the words of the letter writer above, that they are absolutely faultless in all of this, lots of clauses that communicate that the writer did no wrong. Seems that if they are so willing to give the names of the offenders, that (if they themselves are above reproach and have no fault in all of this) they would also give their names. Perhaps if others in the church knew their names, they could join their mutiny.
January 19th, 2009 at 8:52 am
McD,
Did you read the post? I took out many names, including those of the authors. I would think that everyone at Chesapeake knows who these couples are by now, thanks to Gene and Keith. It seems that the three couples were going to attempt to get a consensus, but Gene, the pastors, and the finance team did a preemptive strike.
You need to understand, and should after reading this, that the only consensus SGM is interested in is obedience to leadership.
Do you attend a SGM church?
January 19th, 2009 at 9:02 am
Rather than this being a mutiny, it was a plea to the pastors to repent of the wrongdoing they were guilty of in their dealings with Esther. They stumbled upon Esther while she was speaking with the pastors on the phone about being forced to allow her husband back. That’s what I know of the situation. Once they walked into the room and heard what was being said, they felt obligated to stand beside her and walk her through her struggle, thus bearing one another’s burdens and fulfilling the law of Christ as it says to do in Galatians. So mutiny would be the wrong word for it. Prior to finding out about Esther, they knew nothing about any type of wrongdoing anywhere within SGM and had no particular vendetta or bone to pick. None whatsoever. Once someone told them about this website, they realized they were obligated (provoked by their conscience) to do more, to bring the pastors to accountability as they’d been taught to do within SGM.
January 19th, 2009 at 9:03 am
I’m sorry, but I’m envisioning CJ (or Emerson or someone from that church,) in a white wig all corseted in period costume whilst beragged Esther and her poor children (al’la’ Oliver Twist or Les Mis) come into court begging for a crust of bread or more gruel and CJ Antionette lets out a, “Let them eat cake.”
I know the SG church in my area is palatial, I wouldn’t be surprised if the pastors have gold plated fixtures in their exclusive executive bathrooms, all it needs is the proverbial air conditioned doghouse.
Honestly, folks, if you demand a tithe out of the hides of your members, you should be tithing your income to the needy. Or are you like Congress exempting yourselves from the laws you impose upon other people.
January 19th, 2009 at 9:05 am
Obligated was the wrong word to use. Too clinical. Their hearts were broken for Esther and out of love for her, they chose to stand beside her and support her.
January 19th, 2009 at 9:07 am
DB,
As you probably know, SGC’s send a substantial amount of money to SGM, inc.
Add that to the generous honorariums given to visiting royalty, there’s really nothing left over to help the needy.
January 19th, 2009 at 9:17 am
To all of us, perhaps a quick visit to this link,
http://www.reviveourhearts.com.....People.pdf
would help us all get a clearer picture of how the Lord would desire us to carry ourselves through this life He has so graciously given us.
January 19th, 2009 at 9:23 am
McD,
Excellent document!
Though much experience, I feel the the column on the left could insert the heading, ‘Sovereign Grace leadership”
January 19th, 2009 at 9:40 am
McD, thank you for coming on here as an example of how someone can slap you in the face and insult you, but as long as they are wearing a velvet glove when doing it, you aren’t supposed to feel the pain. Thing is, I did feel the pain for the 3 couples and the rest of those you just spit upon.
Not cool at all.
January 19th, 2009 at 10:05 am
I think the Revive Your Hearts people mean for both columns to apply to us all. I certainly know that I lean heavily to the Proud column vs. the Broken. My prayer every day is that God will reveal in me a desire to glorify Him in all that I do and say.
January 19th, 2009 at 10:24 am
I must be daft. I thought McD was agreeing that the leadership has much to learn about pride. I didn’t take offense in the least. It IS an excellent document. I have seen God use the broken over and over again in miraculous ways, accomplishing things in their weakness that the proud could never accomplish. That’s why I believe things can change within SGM. But let’s not be inflammatory here. It isn’t worth it.
January 19th, 2009 at 10:24 am
I’m not so sure any more that the choice is Proud (bad) and Humble (good)–especially with such a long list with which to beat oneself up. Sometimes the godly response is in the proud column.
January 19th, 2009 at 10:41 am
QUOTE: jim said, “All of the corp docs I’ve seen in Florida churches state that assets will be given to another 503c if the corp is disbanded.”
Then Stunned said, “Hmmm. like, could the pastors give the church building to … say… SGM if the congregants decided to stop going to and giving their money to a church that takes in nearly 2 million but only gives over a thousand to benevolence?” UNQUOTE
…. that’s why any church with ANY money in the bank or ANY property should be having second (third, fourth, etc) thoughts about becoming part of the “FAMILY OF CHURCHES”. It seems that in this “family”, outsiders (those not from the original church) come in if those in the original church don’t want to be in the family anymore, and take everything that you’ve worked and saved for. :/
January 19th, 2009 at 10:55 am
McD,
If that’s truly the case, then are you really in the right position to point so many fingers against those who were trying to defend the defenseless (”Sounds a bit like a mutiny…” “One would gather from the words of the letter writer above, that they are absolutely faultless in all of this…” “Seems that if they are so willing to give the names of the offenders…they would also give their names”)?
In other words, I doubt the sincerity of your self-deprecation. If you recognize a pattern of sin in your heart, confession is not enough—you need to repent.
Ironically, that’s the very thing we keep saying to SGM’s leaders.
January 19th, 2009 at 10:56 am
hi humblylearning,
I don’t think you’re daft. I was referencing mcd’s earlier post.
slap.
ouch.
January 19th, 2009 at 11:16 am
No, I see it now, Stunned. But when I read the document, I just thought, “Yes, this is true.” Never realizing McD meant it as a warning to those of us who are commenting here. I must have glossed over his previous message. (I assume it’s a “he.” Don’t really know.)
It led me to pause and think about why I AM commenting here. I don’t believe it’s gossiping to do so. I think I’m here because I was so shocked at the ones being accused. Having known them for years and emulated their walk with God as I fumbled through my own, I’m really and truly shocked that they’re being treated as the guilty parties in all this. These are simply not the sort of folks who would ever be self-serving or power-hungry or any of the things on the pride list. It’s tough for someone who doesn’t know them to believe anyone could really be as godly as I believe them to be. So I can see why McD might wonder. Another reason I have a soft spot for these folks is they’re practically the only ones who remained friends with us when we left. They never even blinked or listened to a word of gossip or warning that we were now the enemy or any of that bunk. They remained faithful to the Word of God and the promptings of the Holy Spirit.
I’m here because I want God to be glorified and I want Him to be able to present a spotless bride at the glorious coming of Jesus Christ. What I don’t understand is why these pastors and church leaders are so unwilling for their sin to be exposed and yet so willing to expose — immediately and very publicly — the perceived sins of these three couples? They huff and puff and refuse to answer questions that might incriminate themselves but then turn around and sling arrows every which way at others.
This doesn’t sound like what Steve Shank intended at all when he started the church plant in Chesapeake. I sat “under” his teaching and it was NOT THIS. Now SGM seems to basically be saying “Only those destined for holiness will remain in SGM (we’ll decide who that is). All others will be shaken off like dust on the leaders’ feet.” It seems so impossible that a Christian denomination would have that intent. I think that’s why people like McD disbelieve the innocent. It doesn’t seem possible that these things could be happening. Yet they are.
January 19th, 2009 at 11:23 am
Something to consider…
If we attack people like McD, they won’t feel safe to come here and comment. I, for one, would LOVE for the pastors and elders (do they have elders?) to comment here at Refuge. I know many of us are still quite raw because of all the past hurts, but we have to find a way to walk in love while we’re overturning the moneychangers’ tables. I know we’re all working through a lot of garbage, so it won’t be easy to give soft answers. Some who have been away longer will have an easier time of it, I’m sure. I hope to take my cue from Esther…
January 19th, 2009 at 11:36 am
from McD: “Did the couples get a consensus from the rest of the church before they asked the pastors to step down? Sounds a bit like a mutiny and perhaps the rest of the ship wasn’t clued in.?”
No they did NOT get a consensus as they were not bringing others at that point (by gossip NOR conversation) into the conflict and were being careful to prayerfully walk through the situation they found themselves in. SGM does not have an avenue for getting any kind of a consensus since they are not even ALLOWED to ask questions in their public meetings.
I think the couples were convicted by God and felt that ignoring or covering the sin would include them as guilty parties. Bringing truth by exposing it to the light is not wrong. It takes a person of conviction to do it in a Godly way which they did. It takes standing up and speaking out to bring truth that the Holy Spirit reveals to us individually. Maybe they spoke because the H S was leading them to.
I agree with the comment directly above. Yes humblylearning we must give soft answers and see that it is only the Holy Spirit that enlightens us and gives us understanding. Many of their leaders are blinded and do not see it. They are not trying to pull anything over on all these people intentionally. No they do not have elders and that is part of the problem. A big part. Their structure is Pastors/elders and Care group leaders. If the church has 4 pastors then it is considered to have 4 elders. I believe I am correct here but I know others will post if I’m not.
January 19th, 2009 at 11:42 am
humblylearning wrote: This doesn’t sound like what Steve Shank intended at all when he started the church plant in Chesapeake. I sat “under” his teaching and it was NOT THIS.
Me: Unfortunately, what shank teaches and what he models are two different things. If you read the blogs, you will see a story of a wake of distruction left by shank. I listened to his “teachings” for years – it’s all about authority, obey, submit, we know better than you do. As far as his attitude, it’s pride, nothing humble (even though he says he is humble), it’s pride. He refuses to listen to anything when he is wrong. His knowledge of history (including christian history) is severly skewed. He is a revisionist historian, re-writing history to use as he sees fit. The sad thing is he believes he is right, always right.
January 19th, 2009 at 11:53 am
Lion Heart…well said. Graciousness and not arrogance came from your thoughts. I appreciate that. If someone posts something we disagree on, we must remain gracius. You can still speak the truth in your heart but remain humble. If we speak from our pain, it can be dangerous at times and also at times necessary to say what needs to be said. I just dotn want anyone feeling “attacked” for hteir opinions. So, McD hope you dont feel that way and are still reading. Everyone needs to feel the FREEDOM to post their opinion and not come under the gun. Havent we had enough of that? Let’s be bearers of mercy and truth, not bitterness and hurt (although some of us feel those)…and just pray for eachother, the ministry the people…we are called to pray. Thank you Lion Heart for your gracious and clarifying words.
January 19th, 2009 at 11:54 am
Lion Heart…well said. Graciousness and not arrogance came from your thoughts. I appreciate that. If someone posts something we disagree on, we must remain gracious. You can still speak the truth and in your heart remain humble. If we speak from our pain, it can be dangerous at times and also at times necessary to say what needs to be said. I just dont want anyone feeling “attacked” for their opinions. So, McD hope you dont feel that way and are still reading. Everyone needs to feel the FREEDOM to post their opinion and not come under the gun. Havent we had enough of that? Let’s be bearers of mercy and truth, not bitterness and hurt (although some of us feel those)…and just pray for eachother, the ministry the people…we are called to pray. Thank you Lion Heart for your gracious and clarifying words.
January 19th, 2009 at 12:11 pm
humblylearning, I’m glad that these 6 people stood by you and never turned their backs on you when you left SGM. It’s good to see you doing the same.
Take care,
Stunned
January 19th, 2009 at 12:11 pm
Test
January 19th, 2009 at 12:12 pm
Don’t be fooled people, the letter written by the original “6″ said that if they, ‘the pastors’ did not resign within 3 days that they would ‘ take it to the church’. Now they’ve back peddled and said, well we didn’t mean we would email it to practically the entire congregation. That letter was emailed out the 20th to a few people, that is a fact. We all know what happens with email, reply to all, forward, and the nature of people. I tell you my phone and all the other phones in the two care groups were lighting up. “oh please send me a copy of the letter” they all asked. It could have been sent out to 2 people, and the same thing would have happened. So they can’t pretend that they didn’t send it out and it was the pastors. NO! The letter by the original 6 was sent by one of them! After that it was like a virus, and the rest is history. I feel like we’re re-hashing the same thing over and over again. Every day day I wake up and it’s Ground Hog day. Yes there will be a pastor or two resign eventually. Maybe there will be a church plant in Uruguay and one will be sent there. Maybe an SGC in Iraq. Lets focus on, and I hate to sound like Microsoft, but ‘where are we going to go today’. Even after all of this the church will move forward and prosper. Not the building or the ministry, but the church, the wonderful people I’ve had the privilege of serving with. Please continue to pray with us and lets keep our focus on Christ, not man.
January 19th, 2009 at 12:18 pm
Stein-
I have the December 16 letter.
The exact wording is-“We regret having to confront you, but our consciences allow us no other course. We believe that our proposal is Spirit-led and can bring unity, peace, and a great measure of healing to the church body. We ask you to not delay your resignations. Should you refuse, we will take that as your signal for us to honor our scriptural responsibility to “take it to the church”. Should we hear nothing definitive from you within three days, we will begin that process.”
January 19th, 2009 at 12:29 pm
Stein,
It is true that the letter was emailed to a few friends, as was the January 6 letter.
It was emailed in response to questions brought to them because of the full frontal, preemptive strike by Emerson, Keith, and the finance team.
It’s clear that you have chosen a side, which is fine. This situation will unfortunately force everyone to choose a side.
I would recommend that you take your own advice-don’t be fooled.
January 19th, 2009 at 12:31 pm
Sent a test as this is a new poster! I believe the three couples will go to the meeTing on the 25th. I pray they do. Acme: I belive the financial team went because I know one is a CGL/Attorney. I think the Pastors just wanted someone there with them in front of Gene. These three men would probably stick with the Pastors to the end. AMEN Steven on your post about standing up and telling CJ he is here to listen to US!!! Humble: I know all three couples. Yes, one couple would have a lot to lose. I wonder what some of their employees will do. I know some of the employees are leaving SGC but I know some will stay. Jim: Do I understand you correctly??? The Church is owned by the pastors? Clarify for me please. A 501c3 is a non-profit and is tax exempt. Is that what you meant? So, say, a Church is paid off and it folds, they can sell it, who gets the money??? I was always assuming SGM owned all the buildings???? But that’s me not really knowing the structure. IT SICKENS ME TO THINK THAT I GAVE SO MUCH MONEY TO THE MISSION FUND TO pay off that building when I could have been helping others like Esther and other families to pay their power bills! I think I will puke now!
January 19th, 2009 at 12:39 pm
I’m definitely not part of the problem or the solution and am hesitant to enter the “fray,” but I know that there was a very real concern that the pastors would again remain silent. Refusing to respond to the second letter would have caused further harm to Esther. They felt strongly that a time limit needed to be put on the Dec. 16th letter.
January 19th, 2009 at 1:44 pm
Jim – good post!!!! They did lay out the exact plan!
Almost an Ex sgc-er: goodluck! Please get a support system when you leave – you have a great support system online (this one and survivors). There are many, many folks who will pray for you. You also have lots of people who will run to your defense online when sgm faithful attack your posts online. If you have anyone else that can be there for you, please use them. You need it – it is tough when you leave. Cindy K highly recommends using an exit counselor.
Someone down in Chesapeak/Va Beach needs to start a recovery group for the folks who will leave sgm chesapeake. They really will need it. I remember when a church called word of life imploded (lots of bad stuff going on) and sgm “caught” some of those folks. You don’t want this to happen again and need the support.
January 19th, 2009 at 1:51 pm
Humbly Learning…you know me so please dont hear what I am NOT saying…but if I hear one more person come at me with the “you are not part the problem, therefore not part of the solution” I think I will pull all my hair out!!! Arent we a family of churches…don’t we rejoice when we hear testimonies of miracles or God redeeming lives in other churches??? Why then are we brought correction when we know painful testimonies from our “family of churches”??????!!!!!!! This is ridiculous! We are apart of the problem and are apart of the solution. Christians (any many churches not just SGM) are being hurt and neglected…isnt it our Christian “job” to love our neighbors as ourselves…did not the churches in the New Testament sell their belongings and give to the poor??? Did they even go to their church??? It is not specified as far as I can recall….but the church sacrificed and gave to the poor…..arent we commanded to help the widows and orphans??? Does it say…only if they go to our church and if they dont, its not your problem??!! Is anyone else horrified at the lack of care given to Esther and so many like her. DOes it matter what church they go to? Part of the problem would be to allow things to go unsaid, unchecked, un-confronted. Part of the solution is the same and to PRAY!
Stein Masterbrew ( i think i know you)-did you ask the 6 what exactly their steps were in beginning the “process”. Sounds to me and I have spoken to them personally as well, that they were going to be praying alot and meeting alot to figure out the biblical next steps…what it meant to “bring it to the church”. Just as much as the pastors had no intention of hurting or neglecting or for horrible counsel that destroys the soul….theses couples intent was not too hurt the church, but to be witnesses to the truth and abuses they have seen. These people have been involved for a long time with meeting and bringing things to the pastors-and yet it was declared by them that it was only twice….are you kidding me??? These people have been gut-wrenched to bring this to the Pastors….but I praise GOd that they had more fear of their God than MAN! That they love their church, their friends, and THEIR PASTORS so much to walk this road. SM-People have told me over and over since my situation, Journeygirl, I am sure you are not lying but what you are saying doesnt “balance” with the pastor you are speaking of. It is much easier to believe the man over you (as we all should love and respect and trust them) than to believe the Holy Spirit inside. It is a sad truth in so many churches…I would have never thought in a million years my marriage would end thus. That the man who was like my second father would hurt me most. I have no bitterness or even anger towards my ex husband, but unfortunately I struggle with anger, hurt and bitterness towards the senior pastor. And when people ask me for details and I share (still desiring to protect my old pastor), its funny how people outside of SG and even non Christians are horrified and I havent even told the really bad stuff….and yet, people in SG (actually only the men-imagine that) have a hard time believing me and come up with all sorts of possible excuses….as if there are any. The only couples that share in my horror are ones that did not originate from the east coast churches….do you think that means something??? Stein, be very thorough in you questions…and ask them. I Was talking to someone last night and they were remarking how they were told that it was unnecessary information…I beg your pardon??? Why go to school? Why read??? It is because knowledge and information make you more capable of making a wise decision. Ignoring information (both “good” and “bad”) mean that you are not making an informed decision…you are blindly making one out of ignorance. How can we learn about the Love of God unless we read and speak to others? How can I be a good mom unless I ask questions or watch others and interact? To hear both sides of the story fully, I believe, is the Godly response. Arrogance is ignoring information if I may be so frank.
And truth, I guess, is a “virus” like you stated….The truth divides and SETS THE CAPTIVES FREE…and I’m so glad that Jesus set me free singing glory, halleluiah, Jesus set me free!
Love you Stein, whether I know you or not, I am praying for you, the church and the pastors!
journeygirltruth@hotmail.com
January 19th, 2009 at 1:54 pm
And Freedom’s right…I went to Word of Life…we were rocked off the boat and were in deep need of specific counsel. If you are thinking of leaving the church, you should contact someone who has that you rspect or someone you know respected them…I seem to remember back in the day that New Life had a small group of people from the church. If anyone needs some contacts, you can email me.
January 19th, 2009 at 2:18 pm
Journey Girl – thanks, I was actually thinking of your family as one of the people. I didn’t want to post “Hey, guess what happened to Journey Girl’s family” as that would have been gossip. But, posting that x church imploded and sgm caught some of the folks is a different thing. I can’t remember if it was your parents, you sisters or someone else that gave me the inside scoop on what happened.
You probably have many more contacts in that I would at this point. I haven’t lived in the area since the 90’s. I wish I had some outside contacts when I left the church. It’s really tough to see what is happening – I really feel for the people at the church. I put so much of my life into that church and seeing people there being deceived is not something I like.
Well, the improtant thing is to not get pulled into another bad situation because of what is happening. It’s like people who jump from abusive realtionship to abusive realtionship because they don’t know how to break the cycle.
January 19th, 2009 at 2:38 pm
I think there’s a lot of wisdom in seeking out care, like an exit counselor. And the idea of many people sticking together to support one another sounds good, too. Good luck with it all!
January 19th, 2009 at 3:00 pm
Freedom, you said: “Well, the improtant thing is to not get pulled into another bad situation because of what is happening. It’s like people who jump from abusive realtionship to abusive realtionship because they don’t know how to break the cycle.”
I totally agree. But an important thing to remember is that GOD LEADS US INDIVIDUALLY. Not everyone is called to leave, not everyone is called to leave at the same time, not everyone is called to leave in the same manner – some are told to speak out, others are told to leave quietly…we need to individually seek the Lord in our own situation and not assume, in a very difficult time of confusion, fear and doubt, that what everyone else thinks/feels/does is also God’s will for us.
When you’ve been in an abusive situation in a church, the habit has been to follow the corwd, or follow your leaders, and many have lost their ability to hear and follow the Spirit of God. TO be led by the Spirit is KEY right now. For each of you consideirng your next move. There are likely many distractions ahead – take some time and be still before the Lord, listen for HIs voice and leading. It may take some time to readjust to hearing HIS voice after years of hearing so many others voices (pastors, apostles, books, preachers, care group leaders…)
but take heart, and be encouraged – God will lead you. Follow HIM.
January 19th, 2009 at 3:06 pm
” Not everyone is called to leave, not everyone is called to leave at the same time, not everyone is called to leave in the same manner – some are told to speak out, others are told to leave quietly…we need to individually seek the Lord in our own situation and not assume, in a very difficult time of confusion, fear and doubt, that what everyone else thinks/feels/does is also God’s will for us.”
You are so right on. He is a God of such individual care and plan.
January 19th, 2009 at 3:08 pm
Almost an Ex sgc-er,
Welcome. And good luck for hte near future. God will lead you. He loves you and each of us so.
January 19th, 2009 at 3:44 pm
Dear almost an Ex-SGMer–
We puke with you, my friend. .05% of a church budget to benevolence. That is not 5%, that is .05%
Let me say that in words:
FIVE ONE/HUNDRETHS OF ONE PERCENT.
Let’s say that another way: everything a family gave $2000 to the budget of their church, $1 was given for the poor and needy.
In other words, 1/2000 of the budget was used to help the poor and needy.
“By your fruits you shall know them.”
I guess the only question is WHY THE CONTINUED LOYALTY TO A PLACE, RATHER THAN TO THE WORD AND BRIDE OF CHRIST?
You are free to worship with another body. Life in Christ in NOT about your friends. Life in Christ is about him.
January 19th, 2009 at 4:39 pm
ReformedTeacher, it’s worse than that: “benevolence” also covers the honorariums paid to guest speakers, visiting SGM pastors/apostles, etc.
It may very well be that they didn’t pay a single cent to help the poor.
January 19th, 2009 at 4:55 pm
Hey R.T.! I am “Almost an Ex sgc-er” because we will drop our letter of resignation off in the lobby after CJ says his thing. My family has been visiting other Churches for quite sometime now. We wanted to be part of the “family meeting”!!!! I might as well bring my barf bag with me.
We have only held our membership there for the past few months because we wanted to stand with and beside the 3 couples since we believe in what they did. I actually hope CJ will say “Please stand if you will be resigning tonight”………………
January 19th, 2009 at 4:59 pm
Almost exsgmer,
I thank you for your courage and the integrity to stand with the three couples. I’m sure they will be blessed by your actions and I hope you have a lot of company.
January 19th, 2009 at 5:17 pm
Lets define benevolence,
1.
desire to do good to others; goodwill; charitableness: to be filled with benevolence toward one’s fellow creatures.
2.
an act of kindness; a charitable gift.
3.
English History. a forced contribution to the sovereign.
True SGC Chesapeake failed with one of its own members for fear of enabling the husband to continue in his ways. Bad decision,……Yes, who could argue that. The pastors have asked for forgiveness for this specific sin. What about the church in Warez, Mexico….the orphanage that SGC has poured out thousands of dollars too. The many men and women who have taken the trek, blood, sweat, and tears that even most of the ‘6′ have participated in. I would consider that benevolence.
January 19th, 2009 at 5:32 pm
Yes Stein…..I too gave money to the E-team, but little did I know SGC wasn’t even helping those with in our Church. SGC also cooks hot dogs and hamburgers and hires blow up jumpy things for a neighborhood all summer long 2 years in a row…..as outreach yet no-reach with-in is sad for me………..
January 19th, 2009 at 5:45 pm
Jim, Can we set up “Almost an Ex sgc-er” an account to do a live-blog of the meeting on the 25th?
January 19th, 2009 at 5:48 pm
Stein,
What category does SGCC’s work in Warez fall under in your annual financial report?
The financial report is the context of the three couples statement.
What precipitated the confession by the pastors in regards to Esther? Input from Gene, Shank, Harvey, or CJ? Everyone already knows the answer.
January 19th, 2009 at 5:58 pm
Hey Collateral…I’m in! I wish I could be wired somehow!!!!!! Like I said before, Jan 25th is it for me!
January 19th, 2009 at 6:12 pm
Stein, you said “What about the church in Warez, Mexico….the orphanage that SGC has poured out thousands of dollars too”
I assume you are referring to the church plant in Juarez, Mexico that will be the future home of the SGM Pastor’s College to train South/Central America pastors and plant more SGM churches there? Hardly qualifies as benevolence, or missions really. SGM churches are traditionally lacking with regard to supporting local ministries, aside from a few exceptions of course, my former church included.
And about the orphanage, WHAT orphanage? I’ve never heard anything about an orphanage sponosored or supported by SGM. Only thing that comes clost is Covenant Mercies ministries, which is an orphan sponsored program with money going to SGM approved local churches to then give out money to those THEY think are in need. I agree with accountability when it comes to finances in an often-corrupt overseas “ministries” but I think SGM’s accountability is more a means of control, yet again. (btw, Covenant Mercies is the USA ministry thru an SGM church, but they partner with churches in African countries)
January 19th, 2009 at 6:18 pm
Almost ex- I wish I could be there with you, and other brothers and sister at the family meeTing and stand by your side, and the side of Biblical truth. Remember when you take a stand, you are standing for hundreds and thousands of others as well, when you take a stand against the injustices of authoritairanism and abusive pastoral counsel. So even if there is only a remnant present at that meeting that will stand for truth, you will represent a far greater number who could not be there in person. Remember that, and take courage!
Our prayers will most certainly be with you. And yes, I’d bring your barf bag.
If I were you, I’d hand your resignation letter directly to CJ himself, in hand, not leaving it in the lobby passively, and tell him “I am no longer under your authority or the authority of SGM pastors. I am under the authority and covering of Jesus Christ, My Risen Lord, and I submit to HIM.”
Because in all honesty, a good pastor, a humble pastor, would applaud you for submitting to Christ, even if it means leaving that particular church. Yet somehow I think CJ would be angry, offended, or just plain put off by such a comment.
January 19th, 2009 at 6:21 pm
some may call me paranoid, but the more you guys talk about being at the meeting and taking notes, making recordings, don’t be surprised if the meeting gets cancelled, becomes by invite only, or they frisk you as you go in the doors…
cause you know they are reading these blogs and they should be sweating bullets knowing the little ol’ sheep ain’t to docile and dumb anymore, but their eyes are open and they are out for justice…
Shepherds, beware. to those of you who have abused and battered the sheep under your care. God Himself will be their Shepherd..and as for you..well, unless you repent…I guess I would say: it sucks to be you.
January 19th, 2009 at 6:33 pm
Yeah, what “almost” is saying rings true to me…the first e-team I participated in with SGM, I was expressly forbidden from doing any fundraising within the church. The reason for this, as explicitly stated by the Sr. P., was he didn’t want to take from the church’s tithes.
The stuff in Juarez and Bolivia and the handful of other countries SGM has work in is always played as a trump card against anyone who criticizes the level of benevolence and missions work that the group does. Here’s my two problems with that: first, and I can’t say this is true across the board, the folks that are at the Juarez church and others aren’t economically or evangelistically any different from your average church member in Gaithersburg. They’re middle-to-upper-class folks who were already Christians when SGM arrived on the scene. We’re not talking the slums of Mexico city, we’re talking people who are rather comfortable. Second, even if this counted as what most people here mean when they say “benevolence”, it’s still a pathetically small part of the budget at any SGM church I’ve ever come into contact with.
What I’m about to say is a rather across-the-board statement, but I’ll say it anyways: I don’t know of any denomination/group of churches that stinks as bad as SGM does at benevolence. Compare them to whoever you like, PCA, Southern Baptists, Calvary Chapel, Vineyard, Roman Catholic, whoever, SGM stinks in comparison. My church here in Boston, which is of a comparable size to the larger SGM churches (just shy of 2000 members), and has about as many people on staff (or more) as you would expect to see at an SGM church of that size, gives 40% of the annual budget to foreign missions and benevolence. Now, explain to me why, even if the building is not payed off, a church the size of Chesapeake can’t cough up more than a measly grand for benevolence? “He who gives to the poor lends to the Lord”. May we all take this verse more seriously.
January 19th, 2009 at 7:28 pm
Stein.
The mission in ‘Juarez’ you mean?
Jesus commands the church and believers to give to the poor, both in and out of the church. Get a grip. .05%
I wonder, have you ever been in another gathering of the church? (this would be translated to: have you ever gone to a non-SGM church?)
Most of them consider it a minimum starting point to give 10% to benevolence. Then, more to missions.
The trips to Juarez are neat. Most churches do multiple trips to all sorts of places, including missions in their own towns.
But what about the poor and needy?
January 19th, 2009 at 7:58 pm
Hmmm. On second thought.
The poor are often messy. Would someone who is poor feel comfortable going to these ‘local churches?’ Bringing their messiness along with them?
Their divorces? Their lack of husbands or wives in the home? Their abuse? Their neediness? Their job searches? Their undereducation? Their messy children that attend messy public schools? Their sadness? Their hunger? Their clothes that aren’t quite right? Their children that don’t know the right words and the fact that Christians don’t date?
You know, those messy people Jesus hung out with all the time. Heck, he even made a bunch of ‘em his best friends, and later called them ‘apostles.’
And then their ‘apostolic authority’ then trickled down to…….CJ!!!
Hey messy people!! Come and woship with the rest of us messy people!! We are all messy — but Jesus is good to us all.
January 19th, 2009 at 8:00 pm
Travis–re:4:39.
Terrifying. Are you kidding me????
January 19th, 2009 at 8:11 pm
Thanks, Journey Girl. I was feeling like I’d overstepped by telling of the incident where they overheard Esther on the phone. I don’t live in Virginia, know nothing of the workings of this church, having left ten years ago to join another wonderful, free church. I was feeling like it wasn’t my business to be talking about the situation so freely, thus the “not part of the problem or solution” comment.
After reading your post, I do believe it’s appropriate for all of us to be gathered here in one accord — to keep a record of what has been said and done. And Stein, I wish you would email me privately. There are a few things I’d like you to know. If it’s convenient for you. You don’t have to tell me who you are or you may. Either way.
There is a stirring within the heart of God and after much prayer and agonizing over this situation because it concerns people I dearly love, I have come to believe that God wants to free everyone who will allow Him to from the bondage to the directives these men have given you. You no longer have to be a part of the problem or the solution to offer wisdom. You do not have to be accountable to your accountability partner but to God. You can worship wherever you please in whatever fashion the Lord directs. You do not have to homeschool unless you are called to. (We homeschool our children, but we know many well-adjusted kids who were not homeschooled.) You are free to sleep late, stay up late, watch whatever movies your God tells you are appropriate. You can even let your children sass you and get away with it. You can laugh at them and ruffle their hair instead of whipping them if you want to! This is your life and you are free to live. Really live! If even one of you does this, I’ll feel I didn’t go through all the disappointment for nothing.
I am praying for you all.
January 19th, 2009 at 8:14 pm
And one more thing… You can read whatever books you want to. Not just Sovereign Grace-approved books!
January 19th, 2009 at 8:23 pm
Juli…I almost wet my pants when I read your “sucks to be you” comment. Hilarious girl!
I am praying for the Holy Spirit to open more eyes and ears at this meeting. This could be a great testimony of humility and God’s love. We can always hope guys…without hope I would wallow in misery for sure.
January 19th, 2009 at 8:27 pm
RT: I wish I were, but… no.
And maybe you’ve already seen me write this elsewhere, but in a situation similar to what exintern just mentioned, the Joppa pastors told my CGL that they (literally) wouldn’t do a single thing to inform the congregation of the severe financial hardship a family in our care group was suffering through, because they didn’t want to distract the congregation from sacrificially giving for the about-to-launch “mission fund” to—get this—improve the church parking lot.
My “pride” and “rebellion” toward the pastors in response to this is what led to my eventual exit.
January 19th, 2009 at 9:33 pm
Travis:
The mission fund was intended to improve the parking lot? If this were not so funny I would cry at the lack of concern for unbelievers.
Unfortunatelly, I think this is true for most SGM churches. At my old church, the Mission Fund was intended to receive donations to be used to retire the mortgage and the goal after retiring the mortgage was to use the funds previously alloted for debt service to (a) hire additional pastors and (b) possibly build a gymaniusm which most likely would be used to help the pastors fight off the effects of advancing middle age.
January 19th, 2009 at 9:34 pm
Sick
January 19th, 2009 at 9:38 pm
Humbly – I’d add you can listen to whatever music your conscience allows. I remember some friends’ Dad told them (years and years ago, this stuck me as odd) that they needed to “pray about buying the new Stryper album, since the lyrics aren’t as strong as previous album -against the law, great album, title song include they lyrics “I don’t live for you because I’m against your laws” speaking of leagalistic christianity and those that condemned Styper – as he put on the pat methany trio and talked about seeing him in concert!
‘Do as I say, not as I do”
January 19th, 2009 at 9:47 pm
Y’all crack me up! Just got back home. Yeah, I think it would suck to be in a Shepard position right now in Ches
Has anyone ever heard of a recorder that would look like a hearing aid? Oh yeah, that’s right, they’d probably take it at the door…………hoping I wouldn’t be able to hear! I think I will do what Juli suggested by giving my letter directly to CJ. They will probably treat him like some rock star and exit him backstage!
Please do pray for us. Honestly, this is why we have waited to resign. We truly love the 3 couples that came forward and knew they were the real deal. They have so much integrity, discernment, and would never do anything to hurt anyone. I believe everything they have said is true.
January 19th, 2009 at 9:49 pm
Someone does need to record it. Anyone good at bootleging concerts that give some tips on hwo to sneak a recording devide in?
January 19th, 2009 at 9:52 pm
Travis,
My ex-husband – a CGL – wouldn’t allow me to help a single mom that was struggling financially. He did a financial review – made her prove she had a need – and she did. She only needed $20 every two weeks to meet her bills. I was working full time and I wanted us to provide that for her. He said no because we wouldn’t get the tax deduction. That just killed me. Giving should be about more than tax deductions. So I gave her the money myself out of my “allowance”.
January 19th, 2009 at 10:02 pm
Freedom-
Don’t bootleg it-you need to let the church know you are recording the meeting or else you’re in danger of breaking privacy laws….
January 19th, 2009 at 10:35 pm
This is my first posting–The SGCC has taken several trips to Juarez to work in an orphanage there. The Ches. church has helped the orphanage alot with construction projects and having teens help do various projects. Let’s give them credit for this benevolence.
January 19th, 2009 at 10:47 pm
Freedom:
I have a cousin that is a jazz musician and for a time he was pretty heavily into Pat Metheny’s form of jazz which is sort of a combination of freeform and fusion jazz but probably more centered on the former. There is no denying that Methany is a prodigous musical talent but my cousion used to routinely refer to Methany’s work as “Cocaine Jazz” for reasons which should be obvious.
So the point is, which would be the better influence? Stryper (who I myself do not particularly care for) or the indiscriminate musical ramblings of man influeced by drugs? ….just wondering
January 19th, 2009 at 10:54 pm
Annie:
You are right. SGCC should be commended for its work at the Juarez Orphanage but having been to Juarez twice on e-teams I can affirm what someone posted earlier. Namely, that the Juarez church is an upper middle classs church where most people are hardly sufferering. The first time I went we went to a first night reception at someone’s home which had tiled floorrs, very large rooms, a walled, grassy filled backyard. I felt more like I was in San Diego that a third world country.
January 19th, 2009 at 10:54 pm
Musicman – good point
January 19th, 2009 at 11:04 pm
Up until a few months I was actually still sending monthly contributions to the national SGM because I still held out hope that the national organization was somehow either unware of some of the abuses at the local congregation level or perhaps was at least somewhat committed to changing these behaviors. However, because I now convinced that real reform is not going to come anytime soon, I have stopped these contributions. However, since I did make contributions last year, I received a copy SGM’s 2008 financial statements with my contribution statement.
Here are some interesting facts:
Contributions from churches: approximately $ 3.5M
(Contributions from others: approximate;y $ 2M
(Other would be presumabley folks like myself who were too naive to stop giving
Sales of merchandise: $ 1.1M
Total revenue: Approximately $ 8.3M
Total compensation and benefits: Approximately $ 4M (almost half of the revenue)
Gifts and Grants: Approximately $ 1.3M
Travel and Hospitality $ 500K
Promotion: $ 320K (Probably for promoting various books)
However, no line item specifically called “MIssions”, “Outreach” or “Evangelism”
sales
January 19th, 2009 at 11:21 pm
I forgot to add that perhaps real reform will come to SGM when the money starts to dry up. They used to say about Eastern Europe when the region was still dominated by communist regimes that the people did have demoracy because the people could always “Vote with their feet”. To people still in SGM churches, perhaps it is time for you to start voting.
January 19th, 2009 at 11:24 pm
formersgmer
If I am reading what you just posted correctly, you are saying that SGM spent around $4M in compensation and benefits and these compensation and benefits were only for SGM salaries and not for the compensation and benefits of local SGM members.
That certainly seems like a lot. I am guessing that this figure includes paying for those on the “apostolic” team and the whatever national administrative staff they have?
If they had 40 people on staff that averaged compensation and benefits at $100K then that would be one to get to that $4M figure. Does anyone know what size national staff they have?
January 19th, 2009 at 11:40 pm
Steve:
The compensation and benefits amount would only be for the national organization but I think I heard somewhere that when CJ used to be the senior pastor at CLC part of his salary was paid by CLC and part by SGM because of his dual role as senior pastor and leader of the apostolic team. I assume that Joshua Harris salary may also be bifurcated in this way.
Jim:
Would you know if SGM does split payroll costs this way?
January 20th, 2009 at 12:08 am
Item number 9 that was listed in the email by the three couples:
“9. Presenting a distorted gospel. The gospel as presented from our pulpit has been very one-sided. It’s been weighted so heavily upon the doctrine of sin that a lack of hope and joy are driving numbers of people out of the church. We love and appreciate the doctrine of sin, but without balance, the eyes of the flock are left upon their sinfulness and the death on the cross. The gospel is meant to be good news, but our over-emphasis upon the sinfulness of man leaves people feeling discouraged, disheartened and depressed.”
as most know, isn’t an issue specific to just this local SGM Church but from discussions I have seen, is ubiquitous to the group. This is a reflection of the teaching that comes down from the top (Mahaney).
January 20th, 2009 at 12:08 am
FYI (in particular STEIN): There will be many on Sunday that will be reisgning their membership at SGC Ches. This I do know, and am sad, yet excited. Excited that there will finally be change. As a CGL, I will need to be there for those who we care for (the only reason we most likely will not resign ours…at that time. There will be many wounded, I feel, after that meeting, who will need care…many of these being our friends). It appears to us, the only way things will be made right, is if the three pastors step down, and the church institutes an oversight board, something akin to an eldership. This, however, I fear, will never happen, since it is contrary to SCMs Modus Operendi (spelling)! I believe now that CJ would rather see the entire SGC Ches. break free from their oversight, than institute such an accountability feature. Incidently, it does appear that STEIN might well be a former SGC pastor??? He certainly knows the talk and says the right words…especialy suspect: 10 years at SGC and a physical attachment to it….I wonder. Additionally, I do know, directly from one of the three couples, that the reason the e-mail was sent out on Saturday, the 20th, is that their backs were against the wall, and since they were not invited to the party, they decided to show up via their friends through an e-mail to them. This appears to have been forced by the pastors and Gene, who precluded their involvement, yet sought to lambaste them without them being present. There is a name for this: BACKSTABBING!
January 20th, 2009 at 12:56 am
so if everyone reisgns, or at least many do, then giving drops…what % do you think will really leave?
about the financial report stats- if 3.5 million were given from the churches, someone do the math on that one – there are about 25,000 members (max) in all the SGM churches, and ther eare something like 74 church, so how does that break down? LOTS of money being given by the churches…WAY more than I thought.
CLose friends of mine were adopting 2 children from Uganda last year. When I asked the Sr Pastor if a fund could be set up to help them (for oversight and convenience) since they needed some help financially, he said “I’d really like to get the new building paid off first..then maybe we will see about a fund..”
God intervened, they got their money through hard work and God’s exceptional provision for work..and the church got no “credit” which is what I was praying for. I was afraid if they did give them money in the end and “resuce them” at the last minute when the deadline was fast approaching, then it would be a means to hook them in more….you’d think the churches would use money as a means of controlling the sheep, would work wonders..but guess they can control for cheap, they don’t need to buy the loyalty of the sheep..they just brainwash it out of them for no cost at all..(to the leaders anyway)
January 20th, 2009 at 7:44 am
Point 9 well taken.
I think I can factor it down even more; fear.
The common denominator for all of this is fear.
The parenting is fear-based.
Indwelling sin; fear-based.
Tithing; fear-based.
The accusation of gossip and slandar; fear-based.
How many of you (us, actually,) were *afraid* to post here when we started sharing our thoughts? I bet the vast majority.
Fear, folks, its the currency of SGM and the modus operendi (hey, I spelled it the same as LS, but doesn’t mean it’s correct,) the modus operendi of the pastor. IOW, Fear is the short and curlies by which they control their masses.
January 20th, 2009 at 8:04 am
DB–you hit the nail on the head.
SGMers are controlled by fear. Fear of their pastors disapproval. Fear of their kids becoming unmanageable, which they fear will make them look like bad parents. Fear they will be excluded from an event. Fear to send their kids to school or to college. Fear they won’t be part of their children’s marriage. Fear that they need their pastors’ approval to send their kid on a weekend away. Fear they don’t have a husband who is a good leader. Fear they don’t have a wife that submits. Fear that they will dress wrong, listen to the wrong music, read the wrong books, teach the wrong Math curriculum, buy the wrong car….so very sad to see the anxiety all the time in my large group SGM friends.
Fear does not come from God.
Fear comes from the enemy.
Do the logic, people. If you are living life with fear and anxiety, you are not living the life God offers you.
You are living the life that the enemy desires for you.
January 20th, 2009 at 8:31 am
Yes, RT!
I was hoping someone would bring up #9. It’s near and dear to my heart as it’s the reason we left. When Ken H asked me (the only person who did ask me) why we were leaving, at the time all I could come up with was “It’s so ingrown! You can only read books written by their people, you can’t start a Bible study for your neighbors!” (They admonished me for doing this and said if I had wanted a Bible study I should have told the CGL and his wife would have offered us one — which she later did. So I can’t have the women on my cul-de-sac over to eat lunch and pray for one another?)
With many years and some perspective, the problem wasn’t the insulation as much as how the focus on sin — and things that really weren’t sin but just variances within the body of Christ like the Stryper thing — and how horrible we all are. It leaves Jesus on the cross. And didn’t someone here say, or maybe it was in their document, there were plenty of people who were crucified, but only ONE raised from the dead?
As I stare out my window at the snow (we don’t get snow here often) I’m reminded that love covers a multitude of sins. That’s so true. It really does. But we have to UNCOVER what’s being done like yanking off the bandaid and cleanse the wound and let it air out, not just keep slapping dirty bandaids on a gravely infected scab while giving holy hugs and hallelujahs. God doesn’t operate that way. He really doesn’t.
And while we’re on the subject of what the Bible does and does not say about the church. Let’s talk for a minute about apostles from 2 Corinthians 12:
“I ought to have been commended by you, for I am not in the least inferior to the “super-apostles,” even though I am nothing. 12The things that mark an apostle—signs, wonders and miracles—were done among you with great perseverance.”
I know we’re not all of the charismatic type here and you all know that I am. But if we’re talking about what the Bible says about apostleship, let’s see what it REALLY says… Nothing about beating the sheep, as it turns out. But there is something about that in Ezekiel:
Ezekiel 34
Shepherds and Sheep
1 The word of the LORD came to me: 2 “Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel; prophesy and say to them: ‘This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Woe to the shepherds of Israel who only take care of themselves! Should not shepherds take care of the flock? 3 You eat the curds, clothe yourselves with the wool and slaughter the choice animals, but you do not take care of the flock. 4 You have not strengthened the weak or healed the sick or bound up the injured. You have not brought back the strays or searched for the lost. You have ruled them harshly and brutally. 5 So they were scattered because there was no shepherd, and when they were scattered they became food for all the wild animals. 6 My sheep wandered over all the mountains and on every high hill. They were scattered over the whole earth, and no one searched or looked for them.
7 ” ‘Therefore, you shepherds, hear the word of the LORD : 8 As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, because my flock lacks a shepherd and so has been plundered and has become food for all the wild animals, and because my shepherds did not search for my flock but cared for themselves rather than for my flock, 9 therefore, O shepherds, hear the word of the LORD : 10 This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I am against the shepherds and will hold them accountable for my flock. I will remove them from tending the flock so that the shepherds can no longer feed themselves. I will rescue my flock from their mouths, and it will no longer be food for them.
verse 20:
20 ” ‘Therefore this is what the Sovereign LORD says to them: See, I myself will judge between the fat sheep and the lean sheep. 21 Because you shove with flank and shoulder, butting all the weak sheep with your horns until you have driven them away, 22 I will save my flock, and they will no longer be plundered. I will judge between one sheep and another. 23 I will place over them one shepherd, my servant David, and he will tend them; he will tend them and be their shepherd. 24 I the LORD will be their God, and my servant David will be prince among them. I the LORD have spoken. “
January 20th, 2009 at 8:35 am
Stein,
I need to ask you a question in regard to your mention of the church in Juarez, Mexico in conjunction with benevolence. Are you saying they need our help financially? There are some crazy rich people in that congregation. I mean, crazy, crazy rich. Very comfortable pastors there, too. (Very comfortable is my gentile way of saying rich, again.) The pastors there for the most part are wonderful guys, too.
So, given the many wealthy people in that church, please explain to me why you chose to say that they have anything to do with your church’s benevloance funding. There’s no chance that you chose to mention that church simply because they ARE MEXICAN and for some reason you think that all Mexicans need our help, do you?
January 20th, 2009 at 8:42 am
humblylearning said, “is your life and you are free to live. Really live! If even one of you does this, I’ll feel I didn’t go through all the disappointment for nothing. ”
That was really beautiful. Thanks for sharing.
January 20th, 2009 at 8:47 am
Travis said, “the Joppa pastors told my CGL that they (literally) wouldn’t do a single thing to inform the congregation of the severe financial hardship a family in our care group was suffering through, because they didn’t want to distract the congregation from sacrificially giving for the about-to-launch “mission fund” to—get this—improve the church parking lot.
My “pride” and “rebellion” toward the pastors in response to this is what led to my eventual exit.”
Good for you for rebelling against such evil! I’m very proud of you.
January 20th, 2009 at 8:58 am
humbly, may i add that you can wear the clothes you feel are ok between you and god for you to wear? i’ll never forget the time one particularly sweet but lethally legalistic dad pulled my son’s best friend (NOT even this guy’s own child, keep in mind) aside at a youth group meeting and told him that his shirt was too worldly.
did it have curse words written all over it?
no.
did it proclaim the glorious second coming of satan himself?
no.
did it have pictures of naked women on it?
no.
was it cut “down to there” so the girls could see his decolletage? (I know this makes little sense, just go with me on it.)
no.
well what was it about the shirt?
to this day i can’t even figure it out myself.
it was a hawaiian print shirt (sort of what you would see some middle aged suburban dad wearing in the mid 50’s or 60’s). i still can’t figure out how that shirt was somehow more “worldly” than any other shirt in that room. heaven knows, it drew less attention to itself than the denim, long skirted jumper with cartoon characters embroided over it that his 16 year old daughter had on.
i give the kid credit for not stripping down right there and then and handing all his clothes to this dad “in repentance”.
January 20th, 2009 at 9:06 am
DB, proclaim it loud because it is true.
FEAR.
January 20th, 2009 at 9:44 am
Almost Ex…praying for you and your family!!
Travis…a parking lot. wow. that takes the cake.
Steve240…*9 jumped out at me too. During our time w/SGM, my husband and I noted an alarming number of folks who were depressed. We couldn’t help but feel that the intense focus on sin was a huge part of that. They experienced no joy in their salvation, in the risen Christ, in his forgiveness and mercy!! Instead, we all were told over and over and over again that we were lower than a snake’s belly and constantly confronted about sin in our lives. Where was the love, the hope, the joy? Gone!!
Freedom Fighter, the insulation was oppressive too. I am not surprised that you were chastised for starting a Bible study w/your neighbor w/o permission. My kids were constantly chastised for fellowshipping w/other youth groups…even, at one point, youth from OTHER SGM churches!
Not surprised about the kiddo that was pulled aside for wearing a particular shirt either. My niece was told that wearing a red necklace had to be motivated by the sin of wanting to call attention to herself. My son was constantly chastised for wearing a baseball cap. And so on it went………
Yep…all of this is not surprising. It is absolutely a pattern, a sickness that is widespread throughout SGM and not particular to an individual church here and there.
January 20th, 2009 at 9:56 am
“My niece was told that wearing a red necklace had to be motivated by the sin of wanting to call attention to herself.”
?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
and please allow me to add
?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
people, take your children and run, do not walk, run to the nearest exit.
January 20th, 2009 at 10:03 am
I am one of those fearfull people you speak of. I didn’t drink all the koolaid but most of it. I was a closet reader(books not approved by sgm), I watched every word I said to the point of being terrified if I said anything wrong when talking to the pastor’s wives. My daughter WAS a sgmer all the way so I never had to be concerned about her dress, music, book reading, etc. She was the epitome of a model child. She was more “anxious” than me. I would dread caregroup, not because of the people , but what the atmosphere was. I never felt like I measured up and was fearful of saying the wrong thing or not responding correctly. My last cg was better, but it folded due to the leader’s not seeing eye to eye with things.
January 20th, 2009 at 10:15 am
I have to keep pinching myself to believe I’m actually sitting here talking to people who are potentially from my old church and that they now understand what I have been saying. Can this be happening? I’m overjoyed at their deliverance. I almost don’t have any words. But I write for a living, so I suppose I can fumble through and find a few. First of all…
I MISS MY FRIENDS! I WANT THEM ALL BACK IN MY ARMS, AT MY HOUSE DRINKING COFFEE AND TALKING ABOUT SILLY THINGS!
I never, ever thought ANY of them would give me the time of day ever again and it hurt so much to lose their friendship. I know I’m taking a giant risk writing with my photo here, and I honestly only did it because I didn’t know how to take it down, but now I want to tell all of you who know me that I love and miss you and if you ever want to talk I’m here, ready to be your friend again and to counsel and love you. I don’t live in the same city anymore, but you can call me anytime. Email for my phone number… creativepowerhouse@gmail.com or find me on Facebook. Maybe you aren’t even here, but whoever IS here, tell your moms, wives, sisters, etc. that we love them and are praying earnestly and fervently for them!! God bless you all…
(Silly me… Now I’m sitting here analyzing whether or not to hit send because if I DON’T get any emails or phone calls from old friends I’ll be risking further rejection. I guess that’s the chance you take when you take a leap of faith! Also, I have a feeling many on here are the children of those I once knew. Now in their late teens and early 20s?)
January 20th, 2009 at 10:22 am
Stunned I’m not familiar with the financial status of those within the Juarez church, but I was referring to the orphanage that SGC Chesapeake has supported for a number of years both monetarily, and physically with much labor and sweat. Since they are already a group of Christians I wouldn’t consider that missions. I mention the orphanage in Juarez simply because it is a real, sincere example of benevolence within SGC. I will say that many SGC needs to do a better, more detailed job on their financial statements in the future.
Freedom Fighter Thanks for getting on your face and praying for our church!! Many of us are truly grateful!!!
Reformed TeacherWhat group of SGCers do you hang out with? “Controlled by fear” ? Was this a personal experience? Pretty bold and broad statement.
Hardly the case for people I know at SGC Chesapeake, and I know a lot of people. Personally I could care less what anyone thinks of me, and I certainly wouldn’t fall under anyone’s control. Are there any other SGCers posting that have ever felt ‘controlled by fear’.?
January 20th, 2009 at 10:26 am
Hi Anxious! I am right there with you, even to the point I would pray outloud (this took me years in CG to do!) and then the next person up that knew MORE than me corrected my prayer. I will NEVER forget when the Pastor had us get in small groups and pray for like 5 other countries, after I prayed and the next person up, actually corrected prayers I prayed because I didn’t use quite the verbage this couple did!!! Yeah, when I first went to SGC I asked about the bookstore and my CGL. He said they were “approved reading”……….but the good news is: I’m over it!!!!!
January 20th, 2009 at 10:34 am
Dear Freedom Fighter,
My heart goes out to you for saying that you’re taking a giant risk puting your photo here–I don’t know you as I went to SGCC after you left. I hope that you really never feel you are at risk of rejection again! Keep fighting, sister! You are most fully accepted and loved in the true body of Christ.
January 20th, 2009 at 10:42 am
I always thought “approved reading” simply meant the pastors recommended somthing as good that they had read. I never got the impression that we weren’t supposed to go out of the “SCM” bookstore. Coming out of previous SG church experience where pastors never recommended any reading materials or appeared to have read other books, this came to me as a good thing.
January 20th, 2009 at 10:50 am
stein, I truly appreciate you getting back to me. Really, I do. Thank you.
January 20th, 2009 at 10:50 am
Stein Masterbrew….this is Journey Girl raising my hand
,
You know what is sad? I had many fellow church goers and outside friends “challenge” me on this subject, but I passionately disagreed with them. My pastor was humble, preached against pride, against fear, helped me to see my sin…didnt he? It wasnt until God “dropped the veil” that I began to see, really see-dont freak out at this word…but DISCERNED what was going on. I would say that every single person I have spoken with ( and just like you I know a friggin alot of people) that has left or considered, takes the list to only two things. 1. An unbiblical balance of the Crucifiction and Resurrection of Jesus Christ. The “Cross centered life” is good in theory….but it is hopeless and powerless without the Resurrection. “Death defeated and life without end”. Most people hear 100x more about the cross and our sin, then we do about power over death and sin and hope and joy! We get so caught up in Doctrine and Theology, we forget about the LOVE of God. THe Gospel is not…” For Stein Master and JOurney Girl are such, horrible rotten sinners God sent his son…” IT IS: “For God so LOVED the world he sent his son…” We have become like the Puritans…a checklist of humility (check), death to pride (check), conditioning our mind and heart (check), knowing the scripture (check), modest (check)…etc….Are theses things good and right? ABSOLUTELY….but we (including myself) became legalistic with these things. IT is hard to explain S.M….I didnt see what my friends and fellow members saw until I was open to being led by the SPirit. Dont hear what I am not saying please. This is how conviction is brought about though,,,,the SPirit may bring something to light in my heart but not in yours. Maybe you can listen to U2 and be perfectly fine, but if I listen to U2 I get the hots for Bono
. I am saying that the Spirit leads us and shows us things in his time not ours. It wasnt until my life had fallen apart and I was broken, pregnant on the floor without my husband that I cried out for Gods deliverance. It came in a way I did not mean. It came in understanding, but in understanding I was given peace and a trust that My Father in Heaven would pick me up in His gentle arms and carry me through this. I had no idea that my “religion and doctrine” had become fear based. I was horrified when I did “see”. Yes, I was controlled by fear…others are controlled by fear…thats why it is hard to see…all the teachings sound “right and true and biblical”…but it gets twisted into something else…there is a reason the “Puritan” movement “died out”….legalism and fear kill you spirit and joy of the gospel.
January 20th, 2009 at 10:55 am
SM-if you are a rat, woud you please email me? i would love to talk with you as you then know me and love me and i you…if you are not a rat
, then my guess is wrong and i do not wish to intrude in your life. But if it is you….i almost cried when i saw you the last time-why is it you bring that out in me? 
journeygirltruth@hotmail.com
former SGCer(1989-99)
present GCer (sgm church:-)
January 20th, 2009 at 10:56 am
Stein,
In re: “Are there any other SGCers who have ever felt ‘controlled by fear’?”
Seriously? This blog is full of posters who felt controlled by fear. Not sure if by SGCers you meant only those who were at your church or at SGCs in general, but if you meant the latter, you can certainly count me in that. Looking back at my years in SGM, I now see that fear of disapproval colored every personal decision I made during that time.
And you know what? That’s how the pastors wanted us to feel.
January 20th, 2009 at 10:58 am
Annie, I was told NOT to read certain books that weren’t on the approved list. But that was many years ago.
Stein, the women are completely overrun by fear. You mentioned once that you are a strong, sturdy type person. I’m assuming you’re a man since Stein seems like a man’s name. As moms, we often struggled and worried whether or not we were doing things right in raising our children. Then along come the Ezzos and those within SGM who were willing to tell us what to do and how our children should behave. To those of us with tender hearts — and God LOVES a tender heart — we were crushed underneath the burden of all the rules our kids had to obey. I know of many, the Butlers included, who later discovered their child was not obeying quickly, cheerfully, and completely because of a learning disability or other previously undiagnosed disorder. My daughter has OCD. She had tantrums. I remember one birthday party at Chris and Maria’s house where she hid behind a chair and threw a fit and we had to come and get her. We spanked her constantly, the proper way and followed by prayer and hugs. Still, she struggled and rebelled. Only much later did we discover that she had been counting the steps she took, the ceiling tiles in each room she entered, how many corners she turned while shopping at the mall so that she could turn the other way to “undo” them.
This precious daughter of mine did not have the words to describe the burden she was living under and all I did was spank her and spank her and spank her and force her to say “Yes, Mom,” because even saying “Okay, Mom” was wrong since saying okay means acquiessence rather than wholehearted obedience.
The constant struggle to be a good mom in front of the disapproving hierarchy left me bedraggled and worn. I was clinically depressed already and didn’t know it (the same genetics that gave my daughter OCD). So the burden and the fear was too much to bear. When we left, I actually left feeling like I was a failure and could not walk the high road of holiness my fellow sisters in Christ were walking.
Imagine my relief to discover the Vineyard in Chesapeake, where EVERYONE was accepted in Christ, from the man whose son was gay and whose wife had left him (he was the most amazing spirit-filled guy I knew) to the worship leader whose children were absolutely perfect at all times. There was a guy at that church who had been in the mafia and miraculously escaped. He used to go out to parks where gang members hung out in Norfolk and sit on the bench waiting to tell them his story. We had gang members begin joining our church as a result. These guys were scary-looking but completely sold out for God (Google God’s ex-ganstas).
All that to say, yes, Stein, there was a lot of fear. Fear of failure, letting God down, not measuring up. And now there is going to be a lot of repentance with tears between fathers and mothers and their children. You’re going to find guilt-ridden moms who have overdisciplined their kids grabbing them and holding them and loving on them. It will be beautiful and God will be pleased.
January 20th, 2009 at 10:58 am
Journey Girl – Your post was amazing. Your expression perfect. Yes! For God so loved. Lets get back to the simple truth of the gospel! It is more than our sin that is for sure!
January 20th, 2009 at 10:59 am
Stein-”Controlled by fear” DARN SKIPPY!!!!!!!
January 20th, 2009 at 11:03 am
the Juarez orphanage is called Rancho 3M
It seems to me the clothing issue, like the wives submit issue got abused by well-intentioned persons. My children were spoken to at SGCC when they started to wear the black band T-shirts, even though the bands were “Christian”. I would knock heads with my kids myself on a Sunday morning when they might want to wear something that I thought would distract another person trying to worship. I was also spoken to in the ladies bathroom by a friend that wanted to know why i allowed my child to wear the color black. (My son had the black shirt but still the blue jeans) That being said, my kids then didn’t fit into the accepted dress code of polo shirts.
There can be a valid argument for what we wear showing our hearts moving to being unduly influenced by the world’s standards. For some of us, maybe a check is in order. There’s a fine line between mentioning something in genuine concern and love and making an issue over nothing. The church itself needs to have some standard–remember when Mark Dever brought up to CJ about the imodest dress in SG?
January 20th, 2009 at 11:03 am
annie, I don’t know if you ever heard from the pulpit before how awful all other Christian bookstores were. The word dangerous was sometimes used. From my understanding, this was common in MANY sgm churches.
January 20th, 2009 at 11:10 am
FF said, “where EVERYONE was accepted in Christ, from the man whose son was gay and whose wife had left him (he was the most amazing spirit-filled guy I knew)”
I just LOVE people who don’t look “pretty” and are “messed up” in the church’s eyes. Right where I belong! Gimme the losers and rejects. That’s where I fit in.
January 20th, 2009 at 11:12 am
“I was also spoken to in the ladies bathroom by a friend that wanted to know why i allowed my child to wear the color black.”
Wow.
“The church itself needs to have some standard”
No. It doesn’t. Every person needs to be taught to listen to the Holy Spirit. It is HIS job to guide us. Not ANY standard.
January 20th, 2009 at 11:18 am
almost an ex,
someone CORRECTED your prayer?! i know i should be upset for you. i am SURE that hurt like heck. but i have to say, i am actually laughing outloud over that one. oh my gosh! thank heavens that person was there to correct things or the holy spirit/god/jesus would NOT have known what to do!
stunned
but giggling
January 20th, 2009 at 11:31 am
Travis:
You said that the honorariums we pay guest speakers comes out of the benevolence budget.
Do you have any thing to support this gratuitous assertion?
(If not, it is speculation at best, am I allowed to speculate about you? Let me know, because I am really, really good at speculating.)
Are we officially into “any thing bad about SG is true” territory? I’m afraid so.
Long-sufferer:
What is your deal? You just get more and more petty. Now you are trying to undermine Stein by speculating that he is a pastor? (you know the effect that “accusing” someone of being an SG pastor has on these sites)
Stunned:
Now you are playing the racism card? wow…
Years of trips and thousands and thousands of dollars poured into an ORPHANAGE are suddenly swept aside, and called racism.
No one calls you guys out on this B.S. but I won’t let it slide.
I am surprised that no one involved has asked you to just be quiet. You are an embarrassment to those who you would seek to support.
You are polluting the waters on what should be a clear issue of how the pastors respond to some very particular points outlined in the letters.
This isn’t fair to Esther, or the 3 couples, or ANYONE that is prayerfully approaching the leadership, that have agonized and prayed for months (and months) over how to proceed.
With a few hot-headed comments made in anonymity, you are making the bath water cloudier and cloudier, and it is going to be impossible for the leaders to see the baby.
Jim,
I appeal to you, you are allowing this to become a mockery.
By allowing such weak off-topic speculation, your site becomes less and less credible by the day, and easier to write-off. Is that what you want?
Everyone feel free to email me directly if anyone wants to take issue with me.
mynameisbillyblack@gmail.com
January 20th, 2009 at 11:43 am
Hi Billy,
This is a blog. I speak for SGM Refuge, and everyone else speaks for themselves. Sharp, dull, spot on, nutty, the whole bag of chips. It is the nature of blogs, and I only censor heresy, and men who are rude to women.
I can address Travis’ statement. In many SGC’s, benevolence and honorariums are combined under “benevolence” on their financial statement. I understand this is not the case in Chesapeake. They were in my church, and I suppose that they were in Travis’.
Thinking men and women can separate a blog host and his guests. I’m not concerned with our credibility, just because our commenters have a wide array of opinions.
Now, if you’d like to attack the blog, please feel free to question my credibility.
You can email me directly as well. I’ll shoot back a note with my phone number, as it is included in every email I send.
jim@sgmrefuge.com
Just to ensure that we’re keeping our eye on the ball, I think the only credibility that matters at this point regarding Chesapeake is that of the 3 couples, the pastors, the finance team, and the “apostles”.
January 20th, 2009 at 12:23 pm
Freedom Fighter, beautiful testimony, and one I can relate to a lot! I was depressed most of my time in SGM, mostly low level apathetic and guilt/fear ridden, but at times very severly and suicidal. Once (when my second child was about 6 months old) I was so depressed and physically worn out from doing 95% of all night time stuff with kids, only 14 months apart (and nursing), we went to a pastor for some counsel. I think I was getting roughly 4 hrs of interupted sleep a night while my husband continued to get the normal amount, we thought this was our proper roles and my husband’s sleep was more important since he had to go to work hehe. The pastor listened and decided that my problem was that I had made sleep my idol. He gave NOT ONE peice of advice or counsel to my husband to indicate that he should take better care of me or be less selfish or make changes to let me get more sleep.
By God’s grace alone he miraculously pulled me out of that depression and others, not only that he has shown me that joy, peace, life are already mine in Jesus, free for the taking!
I don’t want to make my husband out to be an idiot, that wasn’t the case. We were both idiots! We had swallowed all the poisonous lies we were being taught and it was our fault we got sick. Do the guys who fed us that stuff share responsibility too? Yep. They should repent, change their minds, start believing and teaching truth. We have!
Incidently, we found a much needed refuge in a local Vineyard Church when we first left too!
January 20th, 2009 at 12:28 pm
Julie, every time i think about the time you went through that, I feel so sad for you and your whole family.
January 20th, 2009 at 12:49 pm
Do you know what stunned? Every time I pray for someone with depression now, they are set free, right away! It’s because I know that I know that I know it’s not God’s plan for anyone to be depressed, depression is like walking in death . God’s plan and provision through Jesus is LIFE! And the true real gospel brings us LIFE! Now that I know the gospel, I have confidence that whenver I share it and the person I’m sharing it will believes, they will be set utterly free. I have confidence because I’ve experienced myself, because I see it clearly in Scripture, because the Spirit is always testifying with my spirit that it’s true, God really is GOOD! He really does LOVE ME! I think depression doesn’t stand a chance as soon as someone begins to grasp the fact the God loves them personally, unashamedly, and lavishly. And his love is eternal, never conditional on us but on Jesus who is perfect and always will be. The gospel is the good news! Anyone who preaches to you that the gospel was given to reveal our sin is a liar. The gospel was given to reveal the righteousness of God, and righteousness is a gift that can never be earned or maintained by obedience to any law, principal, rule, guideline or regulation or other ‘good idea’. It is for us to believe God and it is for God to credit our belief to us as righteousness.
January 20th, 2009 at 1:15 pm
Are my ears deceiving me?! What is this abortion?! There is no proportion of Theology and Geometry here! We must….ah!…My valve!
January 20th, 2009 at 1:20 pm
I don’t understand what you mean, Ignatius. I’m pretty concrete, so I have a hard time interpreting — are you asking for a theological basis for what we’re saying? I can give you that if you’d like. My master’s is in Theology. : )
January 20th, 2009 at 1:21 pm
Here’s my depression story:
http://creativepowrhouse.blogspot.com
January 20th, 2009 at 2:48 pm
“You’re going to find guilt-ridden moms who have overdisciplined their kids grabbing them and holding them and loving on them. It will be beautiful and God will be pleased.” –
I coud not agree more. I was/am one of them. I hug and kiss on my ten year old son WAY more often than I did a year ago, when in an SGM church. I’m also just plain happier now about who he is, sin and all.
Ignatius,
I’ve never read A Confederacy of Dunces, but am somewhat familiar with the character by references. So, what exactly are you implying?
January 20th, 2009 at 3:07 pm
Former SGMer – as I mentioned, listen to what ever you want, as long as your conscience can allow it. It’s no different that wtching a movie or a TV show – what does your conscience allow you to watch? As far as Stryper vs Pat Methaney Trio, my issue is do as I say not as I do. Maybe that person needed to “pray” about his decision – lol! Mind you, this is the same person that called me up a week after I just boufght a new truck, asked me to use it to haul stuff around that would have scratched up my truck bed. When I said no, I was told I need to pray about it.
SM – I did have fear of having to see him and others in leadership the sunday that followed.
Journey Girl – I caught what you meant. I was thinking it was that person or two others and all three have been at SGM longer than 10 years, so either it’s not them or SM has a probelm telling the truth. Maybe that needs to be added to his SGM file. BTW – your U2 comment made me laugh!
Annie – that’s crazy that you where confronted. I think the whole dress thing is crazy!!!! What is wrong with black? Does everyone have to dress like CJ and Carolyn?????? The “modesty in dress” is far worse than when I left. What’s next? Making sure men and women go to seperate beaches? Or do the women have to dress in those bathing suites from the early 19th century that cover everything? I’d hate to hear how I would be correct for dressing my 4 year old (3 years old last summer) in a bikini to go to the pool – I presonally don’t care, but when your daughter is in swimming diapers and just potty trained, it’s a heck of a lot easier. GREAT that your kids are where concert t’s!!!! Good for them!!!! Rock on!!!!!! I was going to mention Sanctuary church in CA, a church full of fans of Metal (long hair, concert t’s, a number of christian rock/metal bands), but I guess there “doctrine” isn’t sound according to sgm (they don’t buy into legalism or the puritanical movement). Look who Jesus hung out with?
All women that posts – I have heard a recurring theme about depression, especially among female members and former members of SGM. That is a tough thing to deal with – I’ve had to deal with it in my family. I am willing to bet a number of the men suffer from it, they just don’t talk about it and keep it hidden, because they think it’s not what a “godly man” does.
January 20th, 2009 at 3:12 pm
Stein, you said: “I will say that many SGC needs to do a better, more detailed job on their financial statements in the future.”
What do you mean by that?
Why didn’t you say, “I will say that SGC needs to give more than 1/2000 of our budget to benevolence?”
Instead of hoping that SGC does a better job making sure no one knows that they are unwilling to give to the poor and needy, do you not hope for the day when they will be generous with the money that their members have given? Money that they could not “afford” to give, but that they gave in faith?
Do you really think that the people in the pews understand how their tithes are spent? Ha! I have been on church staff, and know the great ways that we use money: lunch meetings reimbursed (of course, we never hit the dollar menu at McDs), ‘planning retreats’ that never took place at a local park, unless it was the Park Inn, gas reimbursement for driving to meet a pal at Starbucks, which can be written off if you talked church business for a couple of minutes.
People in the pews, who grimace when they write that check, yet being confident of God’s provision, would have no idea.
That is why it IS truly a great idea to have “SGC needs to do a better, more detailed job on their financial statements in the future.” The less the sheeple know, the better.
January 20th, 2009 at 4:26 pm
FF,
My story is similar to yours and I was in a deep suicidal depression during my years at Covenant Fullofit.
And fear was my constant companion.
And I, too, am enjoying the grace and acceptance found at my local Vineyard church.
January 20th, 2009 at 4:36 pm
So glad you’re better, DB!
FF
January 20th, 2009 at 4:37 pm
Hey DB, out of curiosity, which VCF are you at?
January 20th, 2009 at 4:41 pm
Stein,
Fear was the air I breathed.
Julie and FF thank you for your openness about your depression.
January 20th, 2009 at 4:57 pm
Stein, who are you? Did you and Long Sufferer know us?
January 20th, 2009 at 5:59 pm
In Chester Springs…um…er…let me find a link…
http://www.vineyardchestersprings.org/main/
January 20th, 2009 at 6:13 pm
Jim,
A snipit from the Feb 2002 Virginian Pilot. Is this the same church?
Byline: STEVEN G. VEGH THE VIRGINIAN-PILOT
CHESAPEAKE — For a young church family, it’s a heck of a starter home.
At 48,600 square feet, the new worship space being built by Sovereign Grace Church will be as big as a Circuit City or a large supermarket. The building is rising at the corner of Centerville Turnpike and Elbow Road – a place of woods and farmland, not far from the advancing sprawl of Virginia Beach.
Sovereign Grace, which formed in 1987, has worshipped in rented space at Salem Middle School since 1991 and has never owned a building. Its membership, though, has grown steadily to more than 700, Senior Pastor John Butler said.
January 20th, 2009 at 6:15 pm
Yes, that’s it, PFR. John and Beverly are friends of mine here in Charlotte. Dear people. He’s been gone for a while.
January 20th, 2009 at 6:30 pm
I was wondering what happened to John Butler…I’m going to assume they are at another church outside sgm.
January 20th, 2009 at 7:16 pm
Here it goes. I am no longer going to be anonymous. I am Monica Robinson. We were a part of this church from 1994-1999. We were saved in this church and God used many of these people in our lives. God also has used and continues to use alot of what was put into us during our time there. We left when we went to plant a SGM Church in Cleveland Oh. We left that SGM church in 2002. I have been continuously getting emails with people questioning who I am and I have no reason to remain anonymous. We had some of our best times in SGM and some of our worst. Our leaving was extremely painful and we still seem some of the negative effects of this ministry in our lives and our childrens. If you want to know more please contact us at robbiesfam@yahoo.com.
My heart is breaking for what is going on here. I explained in an earlier post that I feel like the adult child of parents who are getting a divorce and I still have siblings living in the home. I realize that this divorce is going to have lasting affects on all involved. How sad that we as brothers and sisters in Christ choose to devour each other. We were personally involved with another women in a similar situation as “Esther”. We unfortunately counseled her in the “SGM”way back in 1999. When she contacted me to let me know that this situation was still continuing in 2008 and she was now being told that she could experience church discipline for not submitting to the pastors counsel, I wanted to scream. How is it that her husband could continue in his sin for a decade and not experience church discipline yet when she is told to submit to the pastors counsel and chooses not to, she then is facing church discipline within weeks???My husband called to defend her and then we told her to run and run fast.
If we still would have been local, there would be four couples and not just three!!! We love all of you and are continuing to pray. The sad things is that this is not just happening in Chesapeake. This is a systemic problem. We have personally been involved in this type of situation with friends in Denver, Orlando, and Charlotte. The fortunate thing is that my family has come out as survivors but many have come out as casualties:(
January 20th, 2009 at 8:00 pm
Oh my oh my. It is getting thick. This is some crazy stuff, but certainly at the heart of SGM’s problems: THEY NEED ELDERS!
And, to all those defenders who get so angry at all of this gossip, slander, etc. THIS SITE AND OTHERS LIKE WOULD NOT EXIST IF THERE WAS TRANSPARENCY IN THE CURRENT STATE OF SGM CHURCH POLITY. IT IS AUTHORITARIAN, ABUSIVE AND “UNBIBLICAL”.
My husband and I were reminiscing about some past hurts we experienced in a CMA church….didn’t need to find a website to voice our hurts…went right to the pastor and he lent a compassionate ear. Was horribly hurt and disturbed by a Christian college. No need to find a website. Went right to the president and told him my concerns.
THE GRIPPING FEAR AND CREEPY CODE OF SECRECY IN SGM HAS PROMPTED THE CREATION OF THESE SITES.
January 20th, 2009 at 8:08 pm
So proud of you, Monica (and hoping it will bring you relief!) Maybe some day…
January 20th, 2009 at 9:06 pm
I love you, Monica!!!
I already sort of “outed” you in the moving on section (in a good way).
In that section (moving on) someone said something like “SGM is for strong people.” I didn’t comment on that at the time, and I know the person meant no harm in saying that, but I want you to know that our Lord chooses to use the foolish to confound the wise and it is to the weak that He shows Himself strong. Blessed are the meek, the poor in spirit. To me, it’s too easy for the “strong” to strong arm those who are broken and close to the Lord, to manhandle them into submission while celebrating the strengths of the sturdy members. This ought not to be. And, in fact, I would even say this is contrary to what God intends for His church.
I will be praying and fasting this week for my old church. But I am also excited that God is doing such great things within the hearts of His people. My daughter gets text messages from teens in Chesapeake saying, “Your mom is on that refuge site again.” I’m glad to know they’re reading and learning and watching God move in our midst. What a glorious bride He has!!!
January 20th, 2009 at 9:34 pm
Monica – congrats on coming out of the SGM closet (LOL!)
FF – Good to know the youth are reading it! I always had a big heart for the teens at SGM.
January 21st, 2009 at 7:32 am
Monica!
Thank you for “coming out”… and for standing up for, not only for Esther and the other dear woman you spoke of, but for the “three couples” who have shown great courage and love for their church by speaking out.
You are a woman of great courage, as well! I applaud you! I know the fear and angst involved in making the decision to “come out”… but the freedom truth brings removes all of the fear, dear Monica.
SGM can’t battle against truth… and there is far too much truth being exposed about SGM and their ungodly tactics. The leaders, from CJ all the way down to local pastors and care group leaders should be on their faces, begging for forgiveness, instead of trying to cover their butts yet again!
January 21st, 2009 at 7:52 am
Someone sent me an email last night, noting the new courage shown on this site-by women.
His question is my question…
WHERE ARE THE MEN?
January 21st, 2009 at 8:05 am
Yes, I think I may have spoken with the man who emailed you last night saying “Where are the men?” My suspicions were that they are afraid. Or have been emasculated by the SGM leaders — left to wallow in their guilt as failures rather than raised as servant leaders.
My husband’s take on it was completely different. He did not run into nearly as many problems while we were involved in our SG church. The men were the rulers — they played golf together and talked about work and ruled over their wives and children. It was the women who suffered under the burden of running the entire household singlehandedly and on one income, homeschooling the children (the MANY children since we were encouraged to allow God to decide the population of the quiver), and to submit, submit, submit even to a husband who was not walking with the Lord at all! There have been discussions on Survivors about how the plight of women in SGM was much worse than that of men. So if my husband is correct, the men have basically been on a cake walk this whole time. They may not even see or believe what we have been saying.
January 21st, 2009 at 8:15 am
Humbly,
A “man” who enjoys the cake walk is a eunuch.
January 21st, 2009 at 8:19 am
The men are at home:
shaving their heads;
reading books about how to make wives submit to them (something men are never commanded to do–submission is between a woman and God);
talking about football;
thinking hard about how to be a joy to their pastors.
Too busy for anything else.
January 21st, 2009 at 9:00 am
RT-
Funny, as usual.
I resemble the football statement
Being the most blessed man on the planet, Carole’s as much of a fan as I am.
January 21st, 2009 at 10:37 am
I agree that the men, in general, have it easier than the women…however, the men in my family are an exception, praise God. Exintern is my oldest son…my other son has also posted (although it’s been a while) on survivors. And my husband wanted to leave long before the rest of us did as he knew nearly from the get-go that it was not a good place to be. Currently, I know of at least two couples at our former SGM church, where the husband desires to leave and stays only because the wives don’t want to leave their friends (although I have tried to point out that if these folks are really their friends, they will still be their friends even if they no longer go to the same church….of course, we all know that won’t be the case, sadly….but in that case, they were never really friends to begin with!). So….maybe all is not lost when it comes to the men??
The depression is a quite serious thing, though. Towards the end of our time there, the depression and oppression were nearly palpable. It was frightening to observe. I remember one Sunday morning, I was standing off to the side as people were coming out after the service and it hit me like a ton of bricks….walking w/their heads down, a look of sadness and/or wariness on their faces, no laughing, hugging or joy. I had to fight back the tears…it was quite eery.
Stunned….yeah, doesn’t that just blow your mind about the necklace?! I kid you not…it was a necklace of small red beads that was adorable w/her outfit. And it was just….a necklace!!! The same w/my son and the baseball caps….he wouldn’t wear them unless he was motivated by the sin of wanting to call attention to himself (this is a young man who has loved baseball since he was a toddler and has worn baseball caps since then as well!!). I vehemently agree with you: people, take your children and run to the nearest exit!!!!!!!!!!!!
January 21st, 2009 at 11:19 am
Patty said, “Towards the end of our time there, the depression and oppression were nearly palpable. It was frightening to observe. I remember one Sunday morning, I was standing off to the side as people were coming out after the service and it hit me like a ton of bricks….walking w/their heads down, a look of sadness and/or wariness on their faces, no laughing, hugging or joy. I had to fight back the tears…it was quite eery. ”
Patty, I normally experienced seeing/feeling the utter sadness and depression as people came walking INTO church. I encourage all SGMers to get to church early one Sunday and stand to the side, where you won’t be noticed and watch people as they come in. (Not the “stars” of the church, but the kids no one knows, the parents who aren’t in the “in” crowd. ) Watch them when they don’t see anyone else, when they are not brightening up to greet someone. Watch their countenance. And feel the Lord’s heart. See if your does not break in response.
Stunned….yeah, doesn’t that just blow your mind about the necklace?! …. The same w/my son and the baseball caps….he wouldn’t wear them unless he was motivated by the sin of wanting to call attention to himself ”
This reminds me of the Mom who used to brag about how modest her kids were. (Hmmm, bragging… modest… that alone begs a comparison.) Her teen-aged daughter used to walk with her head held high with how modest she was.
Let’s see- doesn’t modest mean that the person is not necessarily drawing attention to yourself? Cause dressing like your mother when she is in her 40’s and you are a teenager DRAWS ATTENTION TO YOURSELF! NOT dressing like the culture around you DRAWS ATTENTION TO YOURSELF!
Nuns wore habits because that was the dress of the common woman back when the “habit craze” started. The whole point was not covering the body so that pervy men who objectify women would not get turned on (and trust me, pervy men can get turned on by a burka!), but so that their dress would not draw attention to themselves, but allow them to relate to the common man and for the common man to relate to them.
To NOT dress like those around you IS DRAWING ATTENTION TO YOURSELF! It is to put up a barrier between you and those you want to reach!
Let me tell you a dull little story about a housewife named Stunned. She had a LOVE of boots (still does). (OK, so LOVE is a little strong. Let’s say she had a slight crush on them.)
One day, as she was running her errands she found a store going out of business. It had a pair of boots that called out to her.
“Stunned,” they said, “Come buy us. You love us and we love you, too!”
Stunned’s heart lurched toward the boots. She tenderly picked up the price tag to discover (due to the store closing) that they were well within her meager means. ($15 was the price for the perfect pair of boots.)
She imagined how happy her feet would be, walking through the grocery store in these lovely, Bohemian, earthy boots.
But, alas, therein lay the problem.
Stunned loved these boots. But she loved her Lord, and the other housewives she encountered even more. She knew that the typical Suburban housewives that she was called to minister to, to love, and to draw to Christ would see these boots (these wonderful, lovely, brown suede boots) and draw back a bit inside. She knew these boots were “different” enough that the quiet, broken women she was called to love would not be able to overcome the “different-ness” of these boots, not be able to jump over that hurdle of “different”. She knew that if there were only ONE woman who could not hear or feel her message of love, because these silly boots might create a barrier, then that it would NOT be loving of Stunned to wear them.
So as much as she loved those boots, she turned and walked away. Her heart hurt a bit. They longed for the boots that felt, oh so much, “her”. But she longed to destroy any barriers between her fellow housewives and the message of love she was to bring them more.
And when I went and lived overseas, tramping around with both the rich and the destitute- those boots would have come in handy and my housewife clothes would have created barriers.
A baseball cap doesn’t draw attention to oneself if that is what one’s peers are wearing. It can show relate-ability. Something many SGM kids need oh so badly. And so, too, a few of their parents.
January 21st, 2009 at 12:02 pm
Aw, Stunned. You make me wanna go out and buy you a pair o’ boots! We spent way too much time thinking and analyzing and not nearly enough time praying and loving the needy. Lesson learned.
January 21st, 2009 at 2:31 pm
Stunned, last summer two SGM friends and I had a little discussion about go-go boots (knee high boots) and the one said to the other that the fact her husbands LIKED them so much indicated that other men would as well. It was very condemning. I called the other sister the next day and said “You know what? You’re free to wear those boots if you want. Don’t worry about what ___ said.”
Sad thing is, I didn’t have the courage then to turn to my legalistic friend and say “Shame on your for putting a burden on your sister that Jesus is not asking her to bear.”
but i was chicken back then, but not anymore!
Monica, your “outing” gives me such joy and encouragement. God will honor your courage and many others will find it as well, including, yes our beloved brothers in SGM.
to my brothers in SGM – I believe in the God who called you, chose you, redeemed you, and began a good work in you, that He will finish the work. You will be given strength, courage, healing, and be rightfully restored to the roles that our Father intended for you. Even though these roles have been twisted and confused by SGM’s teachings, you will find truth, and you will find rest, and you will find joy.
Please know that many sisters, daughters, wives are praying for you. We love you! And we know you will make our Father pleased when you do take a stand for what is true. We believe you will, and want to encourage you to do so as soon as possible. When it happens, we will glorify the Lord together. Take courage brethren!
January 21st, 2009 at 2:47 pm
Doug Robinson here. Blessed husband of Grieved but Hopeful. I would like to weigh in on the e-mail question and following comments about “where are the men”. This is my first time posting, however, I have been following many of the posts for some time. I have been wrestling with God over the past several weeks about whether to add my two cents to this site. I struggle with things like: are these sites helpful, are they a means of grace that God can use toward healing and reconciliation, are the people who need to be reading and posting here the ones actually here, are the words and heart of what gets written pleasing and honoring to God, and so on. At the same time I also see that many people (many of whom I know personally) are able to meet on common ground and bring into the light abusive situations and treatment that has been repressed, ignored, or refuted for far too long. All that being said, while I still have extremely mixed feelings about all this, I felt it appropriate, especially in light of the question about men, to say a few words
I would offer a couple opinions to the question Jim posed:
His question is my question…
WHERE ARE THE MEN?
My first thought, though not directly answering the question, speaks not to the relative silence of men, but rather the presence of the women. The women who are posting here are finally and rightfully letting their voice be heard. I read through these threads and hear Godly, discerning, persevering, courageous, mature, gifted, Christ-loving daughters of the King who are able/permitted/free to be heard. (yes, one of those is my wife!) It is my opinion and first hand experience with SGM, that women are functionally marginalized, repressed, and trivialized, with very specific parameters on what a “Godly woman” looks like. So, perhaps, as women break free from this paradigm, and move out from under the patriarchal, domineering, oppressive government of their lives, they begin to function in their God given capacity to express themselves and be heard in ways that they should have all along.
(oh, the danger of saying what I’m not saying or vice versa….Thus the hazards of posting on blogs)
A second thought speaks directly to the men. I feel very well qualified to speak to this (Obviously, because I am a man…ha). More specifically, my experience within SGM was wonderful/terrible (which, by the way is one of the reasons people have such a hard time reconciling all this mess with SGM…because there is a lot that God has done in and through peoples lives that is, past and present, wonderful. But, as we all know, there has been, past and present, the terrible as well…I digress). Though every guy will be somewhat different, an all too common reality for those of us beyond SGM, is that the men, much like the women, have to re-discover who they are as a man in Christ. I know that there are flipant statements that I’ve heard about men being spiritually emasculated or castrated. Though graffic and perhaps somehwat amuzing to say, this has been my personal experience and my observation of many others. I have had 6 years of seperation, and I would say that for me this re-discovery process (obviously still on-going) has taken some time. Depending on where men find themselves in this process may be one of the reasons for their relative silence. Men are encouraged implicity or in some instances explicitly, to aspire to “Godly/or biblical” manhood as seen in the example of….leadership. So, to be a Christ-emulating, God glorifying man is to act, talk, look like, lead like the pastors and “a”postles (if I could make that “a” even smaller, I would). As men truly discover who Christ IS (the one who is alive and empowering us, and not just the one who died on the cross for me), and consequently who they are in Him, then and only then will men be the loving, passioante, courageous, sacrificing, servant-leaders that we are called to be.
Do men need to speak up here, and everywhere else for that matter, becoming increasingly who we are in Christ? I say yes! May God re-vitalize and re-form, in His image (not man’s or ministry’s), all that was repressed, stunted, or taken away in the hearts and lives of men and women alike.
January 21st, 2009 at 2:56 pm
Doug,
Excellent post. Thank you!
BTW, I struggle with the questions you asked in your first paragraph.
Welcome!
January 21st, 2009 at 3:00 pm
Doug, beautifully and powerfully said. Thank you so much brother, for having the courage to speak up, and add your two cents (which I personally think it worth QUITE a bit more!)
Monica is blessed to have you as her husband, and you are blessed to have her as your wife. Couples such as you give me hope, that in all the mess and confusion, God’s wonderful plan and intention for marriage, men, and women, will shine through even in the darkness of wonky teachings – truth always prevails!
thank you again, from the bottom of my heart,
Your sister in Christ, Juli
January 21st, 2009 at 3:02 pm
Doug, I forgot to say that I too struggle and still do with the same concerns as you about the blogs’ purpose, effectiveness, etc. Each day the Lord is revealing much that encourages me that much healing and ministry is accomplished, even through battered sheep, simply out of our love for one another and the Lord. It is a beautiful thing to behold, when you are not distracted by all the “other” stuff that can also go on at times!
January 21st, 2009 at 3:30 pm
As a general question, is there some sort of a community forum or message board where questions and discussions can be posted? I have a serious SGM experience that I’m interested in sharing. Yet I’m not sure if it merits being posted on SGM refuge, especially in light of the sobering events in the Chesapeake church (coincidentally the church where my story is coming from too).
January 21st, 2009 at 3:31 pm
Welcome, Doug!
January 21st, 2009 at 3:39 pm
We all struggle with the whole “is this the place to discuss all this?” thing. But if we didn’t have a place to gather, we would each believe the lie that the problem is us. I lived under that for far too long. And way too many prozac prescriptions have been written based on it. The poster who said Paul took it to the entire church had a valid point. If you look at all this with a bird’s eye view, it’s really a bunch of Christian brothers and sisters trying to get clarity about a really sticky situation. The flaws in docrine were so hard to articulate at the time we left, but they have been articulated here. I see it as a positive thing. A way to bring about change, cleansing for all of us and for SGM.
That said, it would be nice if we could all try to think “Would Jesus say this to or about so-and-so?” before we hit submit comment. I know that those who are still in SGM are reading here and thinking, “How can I trust that these are godly people with sincere grievances against the movement when they speak sarcastically or rudely?” I also know some of you are so raw that nothing but pain comes out no matter what. To you, I say freedom in Christ. Say what you have to and you can depend on my support every step of the way.
Megan
January 21st, 2009 at 3:41 pm
Good to see you again, Doug! We’ve missed you!
And Franklin, it was on my heart this morning to start some sort of private forum. But I don’t know how to do such things. A yahoogroup, maybe?
January 25th, 2009 at 3:09 pm
After briefly reading through this.. I am really proud of the couple’s and Esther.. they seemed to be the true role models in this whole situation..
January 25th, 2009 at 3:47 pm
Praying for you guys. For EVERYONE involved.
What time is the meeting?
January 25th, 2009 at 4:11 pm
Their website says:
“On Sunday, January 25 at 6:00 pm. Members and individuals who have recently attended the membership course are invited to attend. Children ages 10 and up are also welcome to attend the meeting. Please make this a priority.
Free child care available for children ages 6 months to 9 years old. For more information contact the church office.”
Hopefully the pastors involved on their “retreat” did some serious soul searching vs. figuring a way to manuever out of this especially if their manuevering would have been to blame others to hide what they have apparently done wrong.
January 25th, 2009 at 4:27 pm
I am so troubled. I pray that God has His way at this meeting and those that would use weasel words to hide behind would be stopped in their tracks. I pray that the Holy Spirit will blow the fog and confusion away.
January 25th, 2009 at 5:31 pm
“T H I S I S A H O L Y P R O C E S S”…………… This is the new wordage coming from the halls of leadership in regards to the Chesapeake earthquake. Perhaps those words will be spoken at the Family Meeting today. (or not).—And yes— because God is Holy—it is He Who has uncovered and brought to Light the grievous sins of the pastors………FF and Juli have pointed out so well the scriptures keys for believing true repentance: FRUIT —Anyone see fruit grow quickly??? Fruit production requires a timely process—thus,the analogy Jesus gave in observing and judging others by their ‘fruit”.—Genuine broken hearted repentance requires intense actions—-Will the pastors be broken-hearted enough,serious enough, to step aside and submit theirselves to the light of the Holy Spirit and tested brothers in Christ to help them in the digging up of the fallow ground of their hearts???—Or, will there be lipservice—-a whitewash—similar to ….”waxed fruit”….it LOOKS like the real thing…but is it????……..Much preparation and checked lists have occured this past week…..as each of “the Three Couples” met with the pastors–Would they report that the pastors didnot show any of the characterstics that they walked in for the past years?? (not acknowledging,owning and repenting of their own sins; intimidating and verbally strong-arming; coarse,mocking, or unfounded accusations) Only they know—And we all await to watch for genuine fruit to unfold….”He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the Lord REQUIRE of you but to do JUSTICE and to love KINDNESS and to walk HUMBLY WITH YOUR GOD.” { Micah 6:8}…praying for Truth to prevail…….
January 25th, 2009 at 5:43 pm
We are praying as well. I’m truly hoping to hear a good report after tonight’s meeting.
To all of our brothers and sisters in Chesapeake: We are faithfully lifting you up in prayer tonight. May God’s purpose be accomplished… may you hear His voice, leading you and guiding you into His Truth, even now as you prepare, and throughout this night… may your eyes and ears be open, and may you have wisdom and discernment to see and hear clearly.
Our thoughts, prayers, and hearts are joined with yours.
January 25th, 2009 at 8:00 pm
Did anyone else other then me wonder why children 10 and up are invited? I think that’s a pretty young age to be sitting in a meeting of this seriousness – the pastors told a women that was with an emotionally/pshycially abuse husband to NOT leave, they endangered her life.
I know I can be too cynical towards sgm, but a big part of me wonders if they are doing it for CONTROL purposes (and I’m not talking about agent 86!) – I could see the Pastor’s thinking that the parents may be more in line if young children are in attendance.
Now, what about the people watching the young children? Anyone wanna bet it’s the singles and teens? I could be wrong, but knowing how sgm expects singles and teens to serve more than married people, I wouldn’t be suprised.
BUCKY – can you comment? Your comments have been very enlightening!!!!
January 25th, 2009 at 8:06 pm
I also wonder why they are allowing children that young to attend this. One would think that they are too young to be hearing some of what should be discussed at this meeting. Guess we will have to wait and see.
January 25th, 2009 at 8:21 pm
Freedom & Steve,
It was on my mind as well. A serious discussion of the situation would be intense and overwhelming. I also think it would be hard on the children to listen to any tense questions and answers.
January 25th, 2009 at 8:26 pm
Well, if we can recongnize it, so can the pastors. Whatere is said will be watered down, the parents who have brought their tweens may not speak out as much. I really do think it is all about control, they COULD BE (I didn’t say it is happening), but could be using the children to water down the message and keep the “inmates from taking over the prison”
January 25th, 2009 at 8:29 pm
any word yet? Been praying…
January 25th, 2009 at 8:34 pm
I, too, am praying.
January 25th, 2009 at 8:42 pm
Juli,
No word yet… keep praying!
January 25th, 2009 at 9:09 pm
Waters, you said…
<<as each of “the Three Couples” met with the pastors–Would they report that the pastors did not show any of the characteristics that they walked in for the past years?? (not acknowledging, owning and repenting of their own sins; intimidating and verbally strong-arming; coarse, mocking, or unfounded accusations) Only they know—>>
I spoke with one of them and she told me the pastors went down their list item by item and apologized for each and every one.
My husband thinks they did it because they were cornered. But only God knows the heart of a man. We all have come out of this movement and can see clearly that what they did was wrong. Those who are in it cannot see so clearly. I tend not to be too hard on these pastors. They were doing what they were trained to do. They have forgotten how their hearts once beat so passionately for God. My prayer is that He blows in strongly and unmistakeably with the power and unction of the Holy Spirit to cleanse and purify this whole denomination and free the captives, even those who caused harm. And I pray that the repentance is sincere and freedom from the bondage to legalism is the result.
January 25th, 2009 at 9:15 pm
FF,
Apologies are good… but there is a vast difference between “I’m sorry” and true repentance (which means “to change”). Are you saying that they repented and promised to change? Will fruit of repentance be seen? Are they repentant enough to step down? Will they attempt to restore the reputations they tried to destroy on Dec 20th?
Inquiring minds…
January 25th, 2009 at 9:20 pm
Carole, you sound just like my husband. I’ve been known to be a bleeding heart type person. Mercy is my gifting. I just really want it to be true and for things to be healed, ya know? Sometimes that just isn’t possible. I think many families will still leave. Our friends (one of the couples) are going to another church and some other friends of ours who left a few years ago have seen many familiar SG faces at their new church recently, too. Which is great! God be praised. His people are worshipping Him. Who cares where? (as long as it’s a healthy, functional church…)
January 25th, 2009 at 9:21 pm
If their methods of control remain what they will do is wait a while and then announce a leadership change. The leaders will step down for someone more gifted. They will wait awhile though so they can say it wasn’t because of Esther. This is because if they did it now they will see it as giving up some control to Esther and they can’t do that, not to a sheep or a woman.
January 25th, 2009 at 9:46 pm
Freedom Fighter said:
“My husband thinks they did it because they were cornered. But only God knows the heart of a man. We all have come out of this movement and can see clearly that what they did was wrong. Those who are in it cannot see so clearly. I tend not to be too hard on these pastors. They were doing what they were trained to do.”
I do really wonder about SGM leadership. They are quick to quote this Scripture:
Heb 13:17
17 Obey your leaders, and submit to them; for they keep watch over your souls, as those who will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with grief, for this would be unprofitable for you.
NASB
They emphasize the submission (which means something slightly different in the Greek) part but they seem to be neglecting the “give an account part.”
If they truly realized the meaning of the word “give an account” then one would think their actions would be different. It would provide more motivation to do the right thing than thousands of blogs and bloggers reporting on and analyzing their actions especially their questionable actions.
Will be interesting to see what is reported.
January 25th, 2009 at 9:49 pm
FF,
Sorry… I replied to your post before it was edited… my bad!
January 25th, 2009 at 10:27 pm
Just received word from one of the teens that things didn’t go particularly well:
They skirted around the issues and admitted there were flaws but made no effort to correct them.
Gene said the structure will not change and asking him to change it is like asking him to change the Bible.
If I got this wrong, I’m sure someone will correct me. This information was from a teen to my teen and then to me… This is third-hand, but I wanted you all to know…
Don’t know anything about CJ or what else was said. But I grieve for these men because of what Steve240 said above. They will have to give account.
You know, while I was waiting to hear what happened, I was watching the Duggar family show. You know the family with 18 kids? Their eldest son was getting married. They discussed the transfer of authority from the bride’s dad to Josh as they married, letting God decide how many children they will have, etc. These are not all horrible things, but they’re not the Gospel either. As long as Josh honors and respects and prefers his wife, things will be fine and she will have no reason not to submit to his perceived authority in her life. But wouldn’t it have been better to consider it a protective covering instead? And do we have to make doctrine out of such things? Esther, I’m sorry about all this and all you’ve been through. And I hope you find a really great new church home!
I just hate all this. Jesus would call them whitewashed tombs, I think. (not the Duggars, but SGM.)
“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men’s bones and everything unclean.” Matthew 23:27
I’m disappointed. But pressing on toward the mark of the high calling in Jesus Christ!
January 25th, 2009 at 11:07 pm
CJ wasn’t there. Gene ran the show.
Maybe Billy and Stein and Yawp will tell us what happened.
January 25th, 2009 at 11:13 pm
Jim,
That was my guess to…they invited the 10 year olds because they were going to do nothing. I’ve seen that pattern for years, I saw it this week…
January 25th, 2009 at 11:18 pm
Charles,
This week in Florida?
January 25th, 2009 at 11:20 pm
“Gene said the structure will not change and asking him to change it is like asking him to change the Bible.”
I find it funny that this answer seems to come up a lot. The more I read SGM stuff and compare what is being preached or written to what the Bible says the more I find things taken out of context.
January 25th, 2009 at 11:35 pm
Totally right on the 10 year olds. No way to speak true truth in front of them, and every reason to quit early to get the little rug rats home for bed before their stressful school day tomorrow.
January 26th, 2009 at 12:33 am
I’m sad.
January 26th, 2009 at 3:14 am
buying time..damage control…protecting their interests…not concerned about the sheep..(sigh)
you know what? God will bring good out of all of this. All of the people hurt by the actions and words of self-appointed shepherds in the churches..when will people realize that the Body of Christ is not a building, faith is not a doctrine, and Biblical fellowship is not a pot-luck dinner?
The Dearest PLACE on earth? Come on. God is not geographically challenged, and we should not be either. Wherever we are, as the Body of Christ, is the dearest place on earth because we are indwelt by His Spirit, and led by His Spirit. Doesn’t get any better than that!
Time to follow Christ - and it may just be outside those four beloved walls and into the real world, where ministry happens, people are comforted, the gospel is preached, lives are changed, glory to God is given…that is His Kingdom being advanced.
I’m sad too, but encouraged that once again God is revealing, truth is prevailing, and His disciples will continue to follow Him where He leads them.
brothers and sisters at Chesapeake – fix your eyes on your Lord, and follow Him, at all costs. Wherever and whatever that means for you.
January 26th, 2009 at 3:40 am
I think it is confirmation that they are all about their control, authority, and keeping their kingdom intact. Women at SGM have no voice, no helper. Submission in SGM is forced. Control is acceptable behavior. They will never establish any checks and balances because they do not want them. They will admit error only when backed in a corner and someone says “check”. But the SGM kingdom has to be protected at all cost and even when stories like Esther’s or Noel’s come up – protecting the kingdom is the first goal. That is more important than Esther or Noel or Christ.
A church was not meant to be bondage and neither was marriage.
January 26th, 2009 at 7:27 am
Juli said, “God is not geographically challenged, and we should not be either. Wherever we are, as the Body of Christ, is the dearest place on earth because we are indwelt by His Spirit, and led by His Spirit. Doesn’t get any better than that!”‘
Amen! What a beautiful truth you have just shared with us. Thank you! I had to underline the best parts.
January 26th, 2009 at 7:38 am
Well said, Juli.
In my interactions with SGM folks, statements like your 3:14 really seem to confuse them.
Christ’s Bride does not have walls-or a mortgage. I’m not against buildings-I live in one.
I am against temples.
January 26th, 2009 at 7:59 am
I was thinking the same of the 10 year old’s presence. Those who invited ten year olds aren’t going to discuss the serious issues at hand and those who went thinking they were going to broach serious subjects will have their concerns silenced in deference to the needs of the young to be protected from the more adult nature of some issues.
Brilliant strategery, SGM, well-played!
January 26th, 2009 at 8:07 am
And OT regarding the Duggars,
I had to swallow the bile that was building up in my throat.
Josh Duggar is a typical second generation neopatrist. His education is, ahem, limited. Did anyone here see his political consulting webpage with errors that would have been picked up with spell check?
The boy isn’t living in the real world and has an ego the size of a small planet because, in his world, having a Y chromosome makes him in authority over at least half of the population and, gollygeeshucks, he got someone to transfer his authority over to him. Since I am nothing but a woman, I can only imagine the pride.
Too bad for him (and thank God says most of the rest of us,) this is a figment in their collective imaginations.) But its in harmony with SGM teachings on courtship, education, male-female roles, and umbrellas of authority. A sidenote, this supports the SGM is a lot like Gothard theory.
January 26th, 2009 at 8:23 am
DB–I felt the same way about the Duggars. The father, on the morning of his beautiful daughter’s wedding, only blabs on about who is in authority over her now?
The Bible never tells man to take authority over a woman.
It tells the woman to be in submission to her husband.
It tells the husband to die for his wife.
didn’t hear any of that, did you?
January 26th, 2009 at 8:26 am
Okay… I guess I’m out of the loop… who are the Duggars?
January 26th, 2009 at 8:29 am
Never mind… Google is a wonderful thing!!
January 26th, 2009 at 9:08 am
As the father of a large family, The Duggars disgust me. They are pimping out their family for the sake of getting a larger house, furnishings, and attention. They are viewed as freaks by several extended family members, and many who watch their show.
Sorry to further derail the real discussion here. I had to get that off my chest. Back to our regularly scheduled discussion…
January 26th, 2009 at 10:00 am
Yeah, sorry I brought in the Duggars, but sitting there watching that wedding while waiting to hear about a Gothard-like church’s response to an abused wife’s neglect sort of did me in, too. I was trying to be polite earlier.
Something hit me this morning, though, and I need to share it. People like the Duggar family and those happily situated within the ranks of SGM churches are living in a bubble. To us living here on the outside and seeing the wrongs not being righted, they’re in need of rescuing (I’ve said this before). But let’s look for a minute at what they’d be giving up. My daughter made a good friend at her youth orchestra who she thought was a Christian. They shared a love of all things Lord of the Rings. They went to each other’s houses to play act scenes in full costume. They loved one another and had a great time together. Then one year her friend became distant and stopped returning calls. They were 18 now. Did the friendship play itself out now that college and real life was looming? No. This girl is now a lesbian. So my daughter, being in a non-SGM orchestra with a mix of kids, now is dealing with a somewhat challenging friendship. One of my other daughter’s good friends was put in a psych ward for punching through a car window. These were decent, Christian American kids from non-SGM churches.
I was pondering all we’ve gone through since leaving the bubble and all that the bubble kids will NOT go through — the Duggars of the world. Stifling dissension and abusing the needy in an effort to stifle their stories (for the greater good?), these bubble communities can remain intact. I can see why they don’t want to play outside with the rest of us. It’s messy. People get hurt. Sin is rampant — the blatant kind like stealing and the not so blatant kind like “not preferring one another.”
I guess what I’m saying — what the epiphany was for me this morning is — I now understand those of you who are unwilling to leave and face what’s out here in the real world. Even though those of us who are just like you are out here in the trenches, too, and we’d love for your kids to come over and play within our safe Christian homes. But I want to warn you. It’s a wicked tradeoff. You get your safe bubble, but at any given moment, without warning and for any reason, you could get pushed outside of it just like the rest of us did. And when there’s that much uniformity, the community doesn’t really represent reality. To “be in the world and not of it” is what we’re called to do. Not to “not be in the world.” Mennonites have their own communities and they shun their own children for leaving, thinking they will be so hurt that they’ll return to the community. They actually believe they would be in sin if they did NOT shun them. So you have your SGM churches doing much the same thing. Keeping the community pure and hoping we’ll repent and return.
Just curious. Has anyone ever returned?
January 26th, 2009 at 10:33 am
FF, hate to break it to you, but that bubble you speak of doesn’t exsist in SGM. SGM people lie, cheat, steal, do drugs, and have sex outside of mariage. From what I understand, this includes having lesbian relations (relations? What am I? 65?) There’s no bubble, just the illusion of one. Only difference between the outside world and SGM, is at least the outside world is being honest about it.
January 26th, 2009 at 10:42 am
Stunned, I completely concur. The bubble is a myth. We have family and friends outside of SGM (imagine that), whose kids have turned out much better and well balanced than many kids inside SGM.
January 26th, 2009 at 11:27 am
Wow, Stunned and Coll. Damage.
Yeah, it’s different out here. The air is fresh and clean and we are on a mission from God to reach the lost and hurting. Pointed outward toward the messy world, not inward toward one another.
Guess I was in my own little bubble about all this, though I shouldn’t have been after all I’ve read here. I remember someone else recently saying that. My friend who is one of the “three.”
January 26th, 2009 at 12:06 pm
FF,
I do understand what you are trying to say. There is a country song (yes, I love country music – one of the things I found out about myself in 1997 when I left SGM – I began to have my own interests!), anyway, the song says, “you say you are washed in the water, but are you washed in the blood?” I think this explains why some SGM kids live in what seems like a bubble yet sin. If the law is preached, sin will abound. No grace to keep it away.
When I was in SGM, I too was in a bubble. Now, it is so different. We are called to influence those around us for Christ. If you stay away from unbelievers (which is what my life was like, once), how can you bring others to Jesus?
We have a couple of friends whom the Lord has given us much love for. They are married, and are deeply spiritual, yet they do not have the Holy Spirit, nor do they really know Jesus. There are demonic things that pop up in them every so often. You can actually “see” it. Well, instead of running for the hills, my husband and I are educating ourselves on what will be needed to bring the true gospel to this wonderful couple. We are learning what the Bible says about these things, as well as listening to teachings on spiritual warfare. Some of you here are cessationists. I have no desire to offend. However, when you are faced with something else looking back at you that isn’t your friend, or when something invisible gets in the car with you after being at your friends, well, it makes you rethink things. The thing in my car left after I asked it to in the name of Jesus. No fear, just “no thanks, don’t want to take you home.”
Anyway, I say this because there are many things outside of the bubble that I once would have run from. Not now. Jesus loves these friends of mine, and I believe He will fill them with His Holy Ghost, causing anything else inside of them to flee. We walk in wisdom, don’t get me wrong. There is much outside the bubble that has to be faced, too many lives effected by the evil of this world. WE are the Lord’s hands and feet! If we remain in our little communes, safe and sound, these people will never be reached.
Sorry if I got off subject. I get you, FF.
January 26th, 2009 at 12:15 pm
P.S.
I’m sorry if the mee-ting yesterday went the way of the ordinary. I think it will become impossible for these people who think differently to remain. We are watching another heart-breaker, folks. As I said before, uniformity is the treasure most protected in what I remember of SGM. That and their doctrine (which has alot of problems, unfortunately, when it involves “authority”). Also, CJ not being there makes sense. If he had come, it would have shown that the local leaders could not handle things on their own. That would not have been good for their leadership rep.
January 26th, 2009 at 1:04 pm
“Also, CJ not being there makes sense. If he had come, it would have shown that the local leaders could not handle things on their own. ”
Or maybe it would have shown that he cared for Esther and her children.
my question: why were the guys, the pastors from the PC not sitting with esther and standing behind her? Isn’t it the victims who normally need our care? I can’t think of a better woman to lead the woman’s ministry that they spoke about, than her. I hope they choose wisely
Stunned
who sadly knows that this “women’s miinistry” will not look anything like what the people in the seats last night were led to believe what it would look like in five year’s time- if in fact it will even still exist by then
January 26th, 2009 at 1:13 pm
“Or maybe it would have shown that he cared for Esther and her children.
my question: why were the guys, the pastors from the PC not sitting with esther and standing behind her? Isn’t it the victims who normally need our care?”
Stunned, those are good things to point out.
January 26th, 2009 at 1:45 pm
“There is much outside the bubble that has to be faced, too many lives effected by the evil of this world. WE are the Lord’s hands and feet! If we remain in our little communes, safe and sound, these people will never be reached.”
You didn’t get off this subject, Canary, not really. What you said here, is the whole reason why we’re here. To be Jesus’ hands and feet, to have His Heart, and by the power of the Holy Spirit, to help “rescue the prisoners”.
Good post!
January 26th, 2009 at 1:48 pm
I wonder what will be taught at this women’s ministry? I sure pray that it isn’t how to walk on eggshells more carefully around men. :/
January 26th, 2009 at 2:20 pm
Ellie,
Hee-hee. I hate walking on eggshells. They ALWAYS crack.
Hi and hugs to you!
January 26th, 2009 at 2:41 pm
FF, you wrote: I now understand those of you who are unwilling to leave and face what’s out here in the real world. Even though those of us who are just like you are out here in the trenches, too, and we’d love for your kids to come over and play within our safe Christian homes. But I want to warn you. It’s a wicked tradeoff. You get your safe bubble, but at any given moment, without warning and for any reason, you could get pushed outside of it just like the rest of us did.
I have to admit, last week my son was at the new church we attend. He was upset because the boys his age (10-12) all brought their hand-held computers with them..he wasn’t able to get to know them, all they do is play the games and talk about the games, etc…so my son was frustrated. He even confessed trying to “fit in” with them, and then said he couldn’t because he has never watched the movies they talkeda bout (I won’t let him) and he finally realized he just didn’t “fit in”
so this is at a CHURCH. It spurred a WONDERFUL conversation about being in the world but not part of it. I realized then and there that us being out of the bublle is challenging because we have messy things to deal with and lessons to be taught, feelings get hurt, things are confusing, etc. But all this causes us to GROW in our faith and in the grace of God! It doesn’t happen in isolation!
For about a nano-second I missed the children from the SGM church who were “safe” and didn’t watch the movies these kids did, whose parents “shared the same values” as me, and I could sort of relax when they played together.
But the trade off? My son was TERRIBLY hurt by the shunning. When the bubble burst his heart broke, just as you said FF. My heart broke too. He realized at far too young an age (nine) that some friendships are not real, only an illusion.
The whole SGM thing has caused both my son and I to grow tremendously. He told me once he felt like a weight had left his heart since leaving. I almost cried! SO even though outside the SGM bubble is messy (and even in other churches!) it is here that we grow, are stretched, rely on grace, and must fall on our faces before the Lord CONSTANTLY. Honestly, I didn’t “need” God in SGM. Every need was already met from within the Body:
covering? check!
sense of security? check!
accountability? check!
someone to point out my sin for me? check, check!
fellowship? check!
sense of belonging, purpose? check!
joy? uh, no.
passion? um, not really, except for the church.
faith? er, not so much, I was never stretched, I was so comfortable!
FF, If someone DID go back to the bubble after leaving, I can’t imagine what that would imply. I hate to imagine it. It is unthinkable what you’d trade in to go back in bondage. God killed the Isrealites for their lack of faith in the wilderness and they didn’t enter the Promosed Land. Going back into bondage is lack of faith. And that would anger the Lord, I would think!
January 26th, 2009 at 3:31 pm
Juli, good post.
I can totally understand your frustration and your son’s pain at the shunning he received in SGM and the same ’shunning’ he received at the other church. So very sad, I am so sorry for this pain for both you and him
Life is messy, and kids are mean, and parents are lax about what they watch and read, and besides that, they text in worship and talk about Xbox and iTouches and naughty movies.
This is because they desperately need Jesus. Perfect kids don’t need Jesus. Why would they?
But I totally empathize with your frustration. Our kids ARE too worldly. I know one of mine is, that’s for sure.
However, I have recently, after placing him in a local prep school for high school, watched with fear and trepidation as he enters the world for the first time, by himself.
The first month was hell on earth in some ways. We thought he was over the deep end. He was entranced by the girls and the parties and the music and …… (not that he attended any, mind you, nice try though, dude.)
We prayed. We trusted. God provided a discipler for him.
And here we are, months into it.
I am so glad about what I see. He told me the other day, ‘I don’t care what people think about me. I just am who I am, and they can deal with it. I try to get along with everyone, but I am not going to make it my goal to please anyone.’
(he is well-liked, by the way, but won’t be asked to all the parties and trips…thank God.)
So, I see that in his case, a kid who thought it was cool to flirt with the world while still hiding in the church, when confronted with the pain in the real world, realized that relationship with God and life in the Body wasn’t all that bad after all.
So, what do we do about the moral messiness in the body, though? What is in the middle of worldliness and legalistic arrogance?
January 26th, 2009 at 4:09 pm
RT,
Your heart for kids comes across so loudly. It is beautiful.
I have four kids, ages 16-23, who all have their own faith in the Lord. My husband and I have taught them at early ages about Jesus, but there was a moment with each one where they had to have their own faith. This did involve sending them out into the world (in this case, college), praying they would find their own fellowship with other believers, being there to guide and answer questions when needed, trusting them to be a good influence on others instead of picking up the negative influences out there, even dealing with lust…omg, prayer is the only way through all this. I have to believe that my kids are part of the new covenant my husband and I have with the Lord. Kids must have their own trials and tests to grow their own faith. My four oldest are growing in the Lord because He has given them faith. Jesus is their Redeemer, not me or my church or my pastor.
Then there is my 14 year old daughter, who resists faith. She is going to need to have facts and experiences to believe the truth. She askes compelling questions. I fully believe that the Lord has called her. I see her struggle with the world. I want to jump in and take over. I fear. None of this works. I MUST give her to God, be there for her, and teach her when she is open. I don’t want her to have religion, I want her to KNOW Jesus.
You ask, so what do we do about the moral messiness in the body? Each child, teen, young adult has to be taught the true gospel, and know that the law itself cannot save. They have to learn, one by one, to listen to their own conscious. What might be good for one person might not be for another. We cannot judge another’s conscious.
My kids are computer nerds to the core, yet we are sensitive if others come over who believe that computer games are evil. We turn them off, out of love for our guests. My oldest will go to a movie that I might not go to, so I pray that the Lord will open his heart, change his thinking, whatever…but God has to be the revealer to what is right for HIM. He is 23 and doesn’t need his mommy to dictate to him ( I am not speaking of those things that are black and white sinful). If each child is taught about what it means to abide on the vine, that is, to walk with Jesus Christ (without all the leaven), they will learn what is right and wrong for themselves.
I don’t know if any of this made good sense. I just know that religion, rules, and the old law, will only increase the desire to sin, especially in our kids. It is grace that helps us withstand sin. It is loving Jesus that makes us want to be like Him. So, instead of giving our kids rules and regulations about God, we should help them to know Jesus, that personal, faithful, loving, joyful man that walked this earth 2009 years ago, and will be coming again to take up His own.
January 27th, 2009 at 4:15 am
“I don’t want her to have religion, I want her to KNOW Jesus.”
This is what I want for mine, too, Canary!! What you wrote is soooo good, thank you!
{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{ }}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}
January 27th, 2009 at 7:30 am
It took me awhile to realize that my expectations of other people and their families were unrealistic when we left SGM and went to visit other churches. It took awhile for me to realize that that nice warm secure fuzzy feeling was an illusion.
SGM kids are, “Safe,” because they’re conditioned to obey and be good. They’re too frightened to be anything. And I mean that, they’re conditioned to be frightened little shells that won’t saying mean to your son because they’ll be beaten if they do. They won’t play wicked guitar hero because they’re frightened. They’re friendly toward your son because they’re trained to be friendly because their parents want them to be friendly and they will be whipped if they are not cheerful. The minute you fall out of favor and you and your family stop being someone’s project, those nice warm friendly kids won’t be in your son’s life.
The messy kids in the other church, they may not be all those warm fuzzy things, but you’re likely getting to know the real McCoy not some little frightened drone in the SGM collective.
Which brings me to something that’s been bugging me, the kids in SGM churches are held to a higher standard than their pastors. The women and lower ranking dogs in the pack are held to a higher standard. Isn’t this bass akwards? Doesn’t the Bible tell us to hold our pastors to a higher standard?
If a fracking two year old in SGM gets beaten for not looking an adult in the eye and being friendly why do the pastors get away with not discussing serious subjects at hand? Why the lying, deception? Beat the four year old for not sharing her toys but you’ll have pretty landscaping and drown in freaking bottled water while Esther tries to put food on her table and keep a roof over her family’s head? Punish the teens for cliquishness but the leadership shows favoritism within their ranks.
And why, oh, why are you so proud of your Y chromosome? Its a tiny little chromosome, It doesn’t do much more than provide you with male plumbing, really, biologically, it isn’t particularly significant so why all the pride? Which goes back to the Duggars and Josh’s wedding and what someone said about them pimping out their families. Instead of it being a special day for the Bride and Groom, we get to hear the ikky transfer of authority. I’ve been to SGM weddings that aren’t much better that sounded like a “Wives Submit,” sermon more than anything else. This supports my hypothesis that SGM is Gothard retooled, Calvinized, and marketed to otherwise unreachable educated suburban Blue State populations.
January 28th, 2009 at 4:22 pm
INC said:
January 26th, 2009 at 1:13 pm
“Or maybe it would have shown that he cared for Esther and her children.
my question: why were the guys, the pastors from the PC not sitting with esther and standing behind her? Isn’t it the victims who normally need our care?”
Esther was not at the meeting because she is no longer a member and was not invited. Her oldest daughter was there though. The pastors would say that they had already confessed and “repented” to Esther at an earlier meeting.
February 25th, 2009 at 11:05 am
Last month I made a comment here about SGM congregations’ “Benevolence” budgets including honorariums for visiting speakers. I’ve since re-found my copy of the Joppa, MD church’s ‘05-’06 financial statement. They in fact have “Benevolence” and “Honoraria” as separate categories. So I was repeating something I had heard secondhand (Jim knows of SGM congregations combining the two), rather than recounting something I had seen for myself.
So I apologize for misspeaking due to my own laziness, and ask that y’all would forgive me.
February 25th, 2009 at 12:04 pm
In my ex-sgc’s 2008 Financial Statement, they are listed as separate categories as well.
The last one from this SGC was in 2005, in which the categories were combined.
I have no idea what the standard is in SGM, and I don’t want to paint his issue with a broad brush. If anything, it would appear that SGCs do indeed list these line items separately.
March 16th, 2009 at 9:02 am
I’m just now reading this blog because we have friends who will be going to a new church plant that Gene Emerson is overseeing. Maybe I’m just getting old but my reading of the NT’s qualifications for being a pastor/elder is that these men who are acting as elders are supposed to really be elderly. At least some years of experience walking with Lord and handling the Word of God correctly. I know, Timothy was not that old but I believe he was the exception, not the rule. Couldn’t many of the abuses in the pastoral ministry be eliminated by more careful examination of possible candidates and especially looking for those who have shown years of wisdom and grace? Pastor/elders are held to a higher standard but no matter how experienced they are, there will always be sin that will creep out because they are also human. Hopefully, there will also be true humility to know when to step out (notice I said out, not down, because they are not on a different level from everyone else. Don’t get me started on the clergy/laity thing).
March 16th, 2009 at 12:18 pm
Mack,
Welcome to the blog. I love your comment about the clergy/laity thing. Don’t get us started, either!
I totally see your point. “Elders” should be older, experienced believers who’ve been around the block once or twice. I believe that some of the errors we followed in child training came from inexperienced SGM parents (leaders) who had yet to finish raising their children. Also, putting young men in their twenties in as Pastors or assistant pastors seems a little too much. They have yet to have any life experience, even if they did attend nine months of SGM pastor’s college (with little education elsewhere, for some of them). I’ve been on this blog for a while, and have read so many stories of wounded people who went through terrible things that could have been avoided if the leader involved had been more of an “Elder”. Of course, there is the lack-of-love issue. Don’t get ME started on that!
Again Mack, welcome to the Refuge. I hope you have had time to take a peek at PK’s two main posts on church polity. Very enlightening!
March 19th, 2009 at 3:05 pm
Yes, I have read through most of PK’s posts on polity. My husband and I have been in several different churches in our walk with the Lord and each one had a different way of doing leadership in the church. The presbytery form seems to have helped us the most. We actually were involved in the leadership of the church and it caused us to seek the Lord even more. Right now, it feels like every major decision for the church is already done for us which breeds a type of spiritual laziness or apathy. I know we’re not alone in this but I’ve had my years as a boat rocker and I’m tired of getting all wet! Hopefully, in a couple of years we will move out of this area and find something better.
March 19th, 2009 at 3:54 pm
Mack, my apologies, I assumed you were a man by your name – I had posted on another thread I was glad to see more men posting now, and mentioned you specifically – sorry my dear sister!
and yes, welcome to the refuge, glad to have your voice here..
March 19th, 2009 at 4:52 pm
Hee-hee, Juli, I must be following you. I just posted behind you that Mack is a woman. Easy mistake to make!
July 28th, 2009 at 12:11 am
You know what. I think all of this is just plain gossip. Shut up!!! For the Glory of Christ and the church He bought with His blood do not publish your personal hurts to the world. Please. You have plenty of friends and elders and such to get counsel and comfort from. SGM is not perfect and will have problems. May I inform you that any church you join has the capability and probably will hurt you. There is no perfect church or organization. So get over it and stop being another tabloid. Do you hear me??? Just stop it. I am not a part of SGM, but I am a pastor. I have seen this victim whimping stuff to the point I am nauseated. Sheep, grow up. You will not find utopia until Christ returns. Sorry to have to tell you that.
July 28th, 2009 at 8:37 am
Pastor Turnerash,
You just puked on my blog because you saw something that made you sick.
Now you know why people post here.
July 28th, 2009 at 10:46 am
I have been a member of various churches throughout my 30 or so years as a Christian and I have never seen anything like the control issues I saw at PDI at any other church or in any other denomination. Pastor, you are not exhibiting grace and mercy toward the sheep. Jesus was a merciful shepherd. His yoke is easy and His burden light. He says “Come unto me all you who labor and are weary and I will give you rest for your souls.” Because our precious Savior is being misrepresented, we are still here.
Although we disagree, I love you, Pastor Turnerash, with the love Jesus has for His church, His bride.
July 29th, 2009 at 11:43 am
Turnerash
I imagine things would have gone for the worse at the Chesapeake Church had SGM Leadership not had this and other blogs reporting what was happening. That is I am saying that with these blogs the actions of SGM Leadership is more in the spotlight. They can’t do things that they use to do without them possibly being reported on these blogs. Thus SGM Leadership is being more cautious.
Thus I see quite a good purpose these blogs serve.
Perhaps Brett Detweiler wouldn’t have stepped down and resigned if it weren’t for these blogs.
July 29th, 2009 at 6:17 pm
True, Steve, but I would much rather see true repentance, restoration, and change than people stepping down. Though I don’t know what the circumstances were surrounding Brent’s departure. You’d think I would since he lives in my city… I guess I no longer keep up with such goings on.
July 29th, 2009 at 6:56 pm
Time for a pop-quiz…………………….
Which of the following doctrines appear to be part of Turnerash’s faith?
A) The doctrine of shut up
B) The doctrine of get over it
C) The doctrine of just stop it
D) The doctrine of I am nauseated
E) The doctrine of Sheep, grow up
F) All of the above
……..and for extra credit, define “victim whimping ”
N.S.L.B.
July 29th, 2009 at 8:05 pm
Turnerash,
I was wondering how, as a pastor, you could be following the example of our good and great Shepherd Jesus and write what you just wrote on this blog?
“He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering. Like one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not” (Isa. 53:3).
“16 He went to Nazareth, where he had been brought up, and on the Sabbath day he went into the synagogue, as was his custom. And he stood up to read. 17 The scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him. Unrolling it, he found the place where it is written: 18 ‘The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to release the oppressed, 19 to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.’ 20 Then he rolled up the scroll, gave it back to the attendant and sat down. The eyes of everyone in the synagogue were fastened on him, 21 and he began by saying to them, ‘Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.’ 22 All spoke well of him and were amazed at the gracious words that came from his lips.” (Luke 4:16-22a).
“A bruised reed he will not break, and a smoldering wick he will not snuff out, till he leads justice to victory” (Mt. 12:20).
“The King will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.’ ” (Mt. 25:40).
July 29th, 2009 at 8:09 pm
Quizzler,
I will choose (F). I would also add that Turnerash came across with the same treatment some of us received from SGM, though perhaps not quite so rude. Who knows, perhaps we are threatening his own position over the sheep he claims to pastor, and who might be reading the Refuge. Leaders, at least in SGM, have no job security anymore. The truth is coming to light through this blog, and those who aren’t truly in the job of loving and caring for all their sheep (and they know who they are) have to look over their shoulder for any signs of a shanking. That’s gotta be a bit uncomfortable.
July 29th, 2009 at 10:58 pm
Quizzler… that was TOO funny! (Can you give me a hint as to what “victim whimping ” means? That’s a new one for me…)
July 29th, 2009 at 11:19 pm
Maybe pastor turnerash will come back and explain…
I have a hangerin’ for a good Shut up!!! with a side of get over it.
Make mine to go, please…
July 29th, 2009 at 11:41 pm
Me thinketh that turnerash is an imposter – posing as a pastor????
July 29th, 2009 at 11:59 pm
Carole…………..
I was hoping that Turnerash would define victim whimping as it was him/her that used the term above. Looks like Quizzler needs to do some homework on this interesting term.
N.S.L.B.