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	<title>Comments on: From &#8220;Esther&#8221; in Chesapeake</title>
	<atom:link href="http://sgmrefuge.com/2009/01/15/from-esther-in-chesapeake/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://sgmrefuge.com/2009/01/15/from-esther-in-chesapeake/</link>
	<description>a haven for castaways, a call for reform</description>
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		<title>By: Butterfly</title>
		<link>http://sgmrefuge.com/2009/01/15/from-esther-in-chesapeake/comment-page-3/#comment-6449</link>
		<dc:creator>Butterfly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Jan 2009 09:58:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sgmrefuge.com/?p=212#comment-6449</guid>
		<description>Hi,

Acme, I totally understand your story because of my own. The reason they will not discipline a husband for abuse is because of their twisted idea of headship and authority. They believe that they are not allowed to overstep a husband&#039;s headship in the home. This is not biblical. 

Regarding Grant Layman -  He is authoritative. He will counsel men to rule their homes. I saw him one time scream at a counselee when he didn&#039;t like what she said, with a beat red face, and finger pointed in her face. He is not a pastor to talk to about this. 

I would not even bother with couseling at CLC if you are in a bad marriage. The way they handle these situations is wrong and does not honor God - which by the way, God is the true head of any family, and leadership should flow down from God, and God does not treat women and children in this manner, and men should be an example of Christ. But CLC does not get that. &lt;strong&gt;Headship trumps being Christlike at CLC. &lt;/strong&gt;This is truly truly sad. 

I can only hope Esther&#039;s confrontation and these public blogs help change that wrong thinking.   </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi,</p>
<p>Acme, I totally understand your story because of my own. The reason they will not discipline a husband for abuse is because of their twisted idea of headship and authority. They believe that they are not allowed to overstep a husband&#8217;s headship in the home. This is not biblical. </p>
<p>Regarding Grant Layman -  He is authoritative. He will counsel men to rule their homes. I saw him one time scream at a counselee when he didn&#8217;t like what she said, with a beat red face, and finger pointed in her face. He is not a pastor to talk to about this. </p>
<p>I would not even bother with couseling at CLC if you are in a bad marriage. The way they handle these situations is wrong and does not honor God &#8211; which by the way, God is the true head of any family, and leadership should flow down from God, and God does not treat women and children in this manner, and men should be an example of Christ. But CLC does not get that. <strong>Headship trumps being Christlike at CLC. </strong>This is truly truly sad. </p>
<p>I can only hope Esther&#8217;s confrontation and these public blogs help change that wrong thinking.   </p>
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		<title>By: Ellie</title>
		<link>http://sgmrefuge.com/2009/01/15/from-esther-in-chesapeake/comment-page-3/#comment-6448</link>
		<dc:creator>Ellie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Jan 2009 09:30:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sgmrefuge.com/?p=212#comment-6448</guid>
		<description>&quot;We who do not equal their wisdom need to learn from them how to use facebook and how to sleep.  Those areas can certainly be mishandled.  But can we not allow the Spirit to guide individuals in these things and stop turning it into some kind of “I honor God the most in every little thing” contest in which we also ironically declare our own humility?&quot;

SSSSSSssso, sooooooo true, Seeking!!! Great post! I too, could relate to the hypercriticalness part. 

Welcome!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;We who do not equal their wisdom need to learn from them how to use facebook and how to sleep.  Those areas can certainly be mishandled.  But can we not allow the Spirit to guide individuals in these things and stop turning it into some kind of “I honor God the most in every little thing” contest in which we also ironically declare our own humility?&#8221;</p>
<p>SSSSSSssso, sooooooo true, Seeking!!! Great post! I too, could relate to the hypercriticalness part. </p>
<p>Welcome!</p>
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		<title>By: Gracie</title>
		<link>http://sgmrefuge.com/2009/01/15/from-esther-in-chesapeake/comment-page-3/#comment-6076</link>
		<dc:creator>Gracie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Jan 2009 21:03:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sgmrefuge.com/?p=212#comment-6076</guid>
		<description>Hi Seeking,
Welcome!  Thanks for sharing.  You make many good points.  I can really relate to what you said about trying not to be hypercritical towards my children and their sin.  Even after leaving PDI, it was some time before I had breakthrough in my parenting.  The Lord spoke to my heart, &quot;Stop focusing on their sin!&quot;  Simple, huh?  Even so, it took some time to change focus and become more grace-oriented, but the fruit of it was wonderful! 

Acme,
So glad to hear you and your son are doing better after those harrowing years.  By the way, your gravatar pic is sweet!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Seeking,<br />
Welcome!  Thanks for sharing.  You make many good points.  I can really relate to what you said about trying not to be hypercritical towards my children and their sin.  Even after leaving PDI, it was some time before I had breakthrough in my parenting.  The Lord spoke to my heart, &#8220;Stop focusing on their sin!&#8221;  Simple, huh?  Even so, it took some time to change focus and become more grace-oriented, but the fruit of it was wonderful! </p>
<p>Acme,<br />
So glad to hear you and your son are doing better after those harrowing years.  By the way, your gravatar pic is sweet!</p>
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		<title>By: Stunned</title>
		<link>http://sgmrefuge.com/2009/01/15/from-esther-in-chesapeake/comment-page-3/#comment-6070</link>
		<dc:creator>Stunned</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Jan 2009 18:46:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sgmrefuge.com/?p=212#comment-6070</guid>
		<description>Acme, I&#039;m glad to hear the good reports.  but still sad thinking of what you have lived thru.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Acme, I&#8217;m glad to hear the good reports.  but still sad thinking of what you have lived thru.</p>
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		<title>By: Seeking</title>
		<link>http://sgmrefuge.com/2009/01/15/from-esther-in-chesapeake/comment-page-3/#comment-6062</link>
		<dc:creator>Seeking</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Jan 2009 17:22:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sgmrefuge.com/?p=212#comment-6062</guid>
		<description>I was part of SG for years.   Only pastors and apostolic team members can really be trusted, and everything must go through them for approval in order to be expressed, lived, etc.  While they pride themselves in their humility, it appears to be a false humility.  They consider one another better than themselves, indeed, but do they consider the people beneath them better than themselves?  Pay attention at the conferences to see if this is the case, not during the meetings but outside of them.   Also, pay attention to what happens when a member wants to go to Africa and care for HIV babies with some group other than SG.  Members may not get pastoral support or even seek congregational support within the church, as some type of error could take place if they&#039;re not overseeing it.  This is pride.  While they have opened up lines of communication outside of SG, members may only read/listen to those who have been approved. Otherwise, they may fail to discern, inspite of the theology they have learned.  There is no opportunity for critical thinking.  That must be done by leadership.  Congregants listen to the results of critical thinking passed down to them.  When or if congregants share a testimony, it must be reviewed, edited, and approved by leaders. Again there is a focus on &quot;what if there is a doctrinal error&quot; and there is no trust that the people will be able to sort through it or discern.

While the congregation is commended according to how easily they are led, when individuals present with any type of problem, the focus is immediately upon that person&#039;s sin.  Areas of excellence are usually ignored.  I am still trying to overcome a hypercritical stance toward my children.  I want to look for the good things and not just address their sin.  

In that light, SG has very rich teaching.  The people love one another and serve one another with joy.  The worship is outstanding.  The reformed doctrine is very strong.  They should trust the Spirit to work in the lives of the people and allow Him to do some of that &quot;correcting&quot; they constantly try to do.  The focus on that word &quot;correction&quot; fits in well with modern political correctness where people must watch every word they say that it not displease anyone.  The beliefs are not politically correct, but the idea that my actions and communications need to be monitored so correction can immediately be applied at the very least takes joy and spontaneity from the process.

Must we be told how to use Facebook?  Must we be chastised according to how we sleep or how we enjoy humor?  Even in these trivial things, pride enters in.  &quot;My sleep is sanctified sleep.&quot;  &quot;God is glorified daily in my facebook status.&quot;  &quot;Isn&#039;t that a glorious joke?&quot;  Someone mentioned micromanagement.  Yes.  That&#039;s it.  We who do not equal their wisdom need to learn from them how to use facebook and how to sleep.  Those areas can certainly be mishandled.  But can we not allow the Spirit to guide individuals in these things and stop turning it into some kind of &quot;I honor God the most in every little thing&quot; contest in which we also ironically declare our own humility?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was part of SG for years.   Only pastors and apostolic team members can really be trusted, and everything must go through them for approval in order to be expressed, lived, etc.  While they pride themselves in their humility, it appears to be a false humility.  They consider one another better than themselves, indeed, but do they consider the people beneath them better than themselves?  Pay attention at the conferences to see if this is the case, not during the meetings but outside of them.   Also, pay attention to what happens when a member wants to go to Africa and care for HIV babies with some group other than SG.  Members may not get pastoral support or even seek congregational support within the church, as some type of error could take place if they&#8217;re not overseeing it.  This is pride.  While they have opened up lines of communication outside of SG, members may only read/listen to those who have been approved. Otherwise, they may fail to discern, inspite of the theology they have learned.  There is no opportunity for critical thinking.  That must be done by leadership.  Congregants listen to the results of critical thinking passed down to them.  When or if congregants share a testimony, it must be reviewed, edited, and approved by leaders. Again there is a focus on &#8220;what if there is a doctrinal error&#8221; and there is no trust that the people will be able to sort through it or discern.</p>
<p>While the congregation is commended according to how easily they are led, when individuals present with any type of problem, the focus is immediately upon that person&#8217;s sin.  Areas of excellence are usually ignored.  I am still trying to overcome a hypercritical stance toward my children.  I want to look for the good things and not just address their sin.  </p>
<p>In that light, SG has very rich teaching.  The people love one another and serve one another with joy.  The worship is outstanding.  The reformed doctrine is very strong.  They should trust the Spirit to work in the lives of the people and allow Him to do some of that &#8220;correcting&#8221; they constantly try to do.  The focus on that word &#8220;correction&#8221; fits in well with modern political correctness where people must watch every word they say that it not displease anyone.  The beliefs are not politically correct, but the idea that my actions and communications need to be monitored so correction can immediately be applied at the very least takes joy and spontaneity from the process.</p>
<p>Must we be told how to use Facebook?  Must we be chastised according to how we sleep or how we enjoy humor?  Even in these trivial things, pride enters in.  &#8220;My sleep is sanctified sleep.&#8221;  &#8220;God is glorified daily in my facebook status.&#8221;  &#8220;Isn&#8217;t that a glorious joke?&#8221;  Someone mentioned micromanagement.  Yes.  That&#8217;s it.  We who do not equal their wisdom need to learn from them how to use facebook and how to sleep.  Those areas can certainly be mishandled.  But can we not allow the Spirit to guide individuals in these things and stop turning it into some kind of &#8220;I honor God the most in every little thing&#8221; contest in which we also ironically declare our own humility?</p>
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		<title>By: acme</title>
		<link>http://sgmrefuge.com/2009/01/15/from-esther-in-chesapeake/comment-page-3/#comment-6002</link>
		<dc:creator>acme</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Jan 2009 22:59:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sgmrefuge.com/?p=212#comment-6002</guid>
		<description>I am in a far better place than I was back in 2006--I&#039;m out of CLC (in part, because I was told that I would be under church discipline if I were to divorce G--which I haven&#039;t gotten around to yet, because G does better when he&#039;s not in the house and I&#039;m doing better keeping safer boundaries), my boy has not been hospitalized in the last year and has better ways of managing conflict and stress, and honestly, these blogs (both survivor and refuge) have truly helped me work through so much of the kool-aid issues.


Finally, I want to thank my CLC friends D &amp; D (who were our former CG leaders and pre-marital counselors) who were the first to HEAR me when I described what my home life was like and STOOD by me as I went through the process--appealing to the pastors about why they didn&#039;t discipline G sooner, about why abuse wasn&#039;t as bad as adultery or abandonment, and more. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am in a far better place than I was back in 2006&#8211;I&#8217;m out of CLC (in part, because I was told that I would be under church discipline if I were to divorce G&#8211;which I haven&#8217;t gotten around to yet, because G does better when he&#8217;s not in the house and I&#8217;m doing better keeping safer boundaries), my boy has not been hospitalized in the last year and has better ways of managing conflict and stress, and honestly, these blogs (both survivor and refuge) have truly helped me work through so much of the kool-aid issues.</p>
<p>Finally, I want to thank my CLC friends D &amp; D (who were our former CG leaders and pre-marital counselors) who were the first to HEAR me when I described what my home life was like and STOOD by me as I went through the process&#8211;appealing to the pastors about why they didn&#8217;t discipline G sooner, about why abuse wasn&#8217;t as bad as adultery or abandonment, and more. </p>
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		<title>By: Stunned</title>
		<link>http://sgmrefuge.com/2009/01/15/from-esther-in-chesapeake/comment-page-3/#comment-5926</link>
		<dc:creator>Stunned</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Jan 2009 16:26:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sgmrefuge.com/?p=212#comment-5926</guid>
		<description>Ellie, you said a mouthful of truth there.

Wish it weren&#039;t so, but it is.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ellie, you said a mouthful of truth there.</p>
<p>Wish it weren&#8217;t so, but it is.</p>
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		<title>By: Stunned</title>
		<link>http://sgmrefuge.com/2009/01/15/from-esther-in-chesapeake/comment-page-3/#comment-5925</link>
		<dc:creator>Stunned</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Jan 2009 16:25:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sgmrefuge.com/?p=212#comment-5925</guid>
		<description>Remnant said, &quot;Stunned (love your posts, btw), why do you think G’s abuse was going to be addressed by fathers who regularly abuse their children (and instruct their wives and congregations to regularly abuse children) - although their abuse is under the guise of “discipline.” The over use of the “rod of correction” in beating toddlers for nothing more serious than being toddlers has seared these father’s hearts and minds. &quot;

Remnant, I am sad to say, you are right.  I hadn&#039;t even thought that through, had I? I wonder how many years these men spent studying early childhood development in order to discern what is normal childhood behavior and what is rebellion and sin.  

Funny, how somewhere along the line, we endowed these guys with the ability to know the difference, when they never earned it.

Stupid on my part.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Remnant said, &#8220;Stunned (love your posts, btw), why do you think G’s abuse was going to be addressed by fathers who regularly abuse their children (and instruct their wives and congregations to regularly abuse children) &#8211; although their abuse is under the guise of “discipline.” The over use of the “rod of correction” in beating toddlers for nothing more serious than being toddlers has seared these father’s hearts and minds. &#8221;</p>
<p>Remnant, I am sad to say, you are right.  I hadn&#8217;t even thought that through, had I? I wonder how many years these men spent studying early childhood development in order to discern what is normal childhood behavior and what is rebellion and sin.  </p>
<p>Funny, how somewhere along the line, we endowed these guys with the ability to know the difference, when they never earned it.</p>
<p>Stupid on my part.</p>
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		<title>By: Remnant</title>
		<link>http://sgmrefuge.com/2009/01/15/from-esther-in-chesapeake/comment-page-3/#comment-5922</link>
		<dc:creator>Remnant</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Jan 2009 16:18:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sgmrefuge.com/?p=212#comment-5922</guid>
		<description>Stunned (love your posts, btw), why do you think G&#039;s abuse was going to be addressed by fathers who regularly abuse their children (and instruct their wives and congregations to regularly abuse children) - although their abuse is under the guise of &quot;discipline.&quot; The over use of the &quot;rod of correction&quot; in beating toddlers for nothing more serious than being toddlers has seared these father&#039;s hearts and minds. 

If they had corrected G - they may have had to examine their own abusive practices.

These men, these bullies, sicken me. &quot;Apostles&quot; indeed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Stunned (love your posts, btw), why do you think G&#8217;s abuse was going to be addressed by fathers who regularly abuse their children (and instruct their wives and congregations to regularly abuse children) &#8211; although their abuse is under the guise of &#8220;discipline.&#8221; The over use of the &#8220;rod of correction&#8221; in beating toddlers for nothing more serious than being toddlers has seared these father&#8217;s hearts and minds. </p>
<p>If they had corrected G &#8211; they may have had to examine their own abusive practices.</p>
<p>These men, these bullies, sicken me. &#8220;Apostles&#8221; indeed.</p>
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		<title>By: Ellie</title>
		<link>http://sgmrefuge.com/2009/01/15/from-esther-in-chesapeake/comment-page-3/#comment-5920</link>
		<dc:creator>Ellie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Jan 2009 16:11:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sgmrefuge.com/?p=212#comment-5920</guid>
		<description>Well, you see, if the husband &quot;apologizes&quot; for whatever he does to the wife or the children and she and they forgive him, then it&#039;s not supposed to be mentioned again. She&#039;s forgiven him. She&#039;s not supposed to be afraid, because fear is sin. It&#039;s not trusting God. When he&#039;s back living in the home and is abusive, she&#039;s supposed to call the police and let them handle it. Rather than live separate and be safe while waiting on God to change the situation, the wife is supposed to submit to the husband being back in the home and has to walk on eggshells. If there is then abuse, she is supposed to call the police. 

So if she reports it and the husband is taken to jail, he&#039;ll lose his job, and then the wife is in a financial crisis. What a solution. 

Sigh.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, you see, if the husband &#8220;apologizes&#8221; for whatever he does to the wife or the children and she and they forgive him, then it&#8217;s not supposed to be mentioned again. She&#8217;s forgiven him. She&#8217;s not supposed to be afraid, because fear is sin. It&#8217;s not trusting God. When he&#8217;s back living in the home and is abusive, she&#8217;s supposed to call the police and let them handle it. Rather than live separate and be safe while waiting on God to change the situation, the wife is supposed to submit to the husband being back in the home and has to walk on eggshells. If there is then abuse, she is supposed to call the police. </p>
<p>So if she reports it and the husband is taken to jail, he&#8217;ll lose his job, and then the wife is in a financial crisis. What a solution. </p>
<p>Sigh.</p>
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		<title>By: Stunned</title>
		<link>http://sgmrefuge.com/2009/01/15/from-esther-in-chesapeake/comment-page-3/#comment-5916</link>
		<dc:creator>Stunned</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Jan 2009 15:45:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sgmrefuge.com/?p=212#comment-5916</guid>
		<description>&quot;The pastors explained that they had a “biblical” basis to discipline G for failing to provide for his family, but not for abusing us.&quot;

That bunch of lowly, $*^&amp;%#$ $%*^&amp;#@^&amp; $%*^&amp;#$es. 

Go ahead and delete me, Jim.  I will completely understand. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;The pastors explained that they had a “biblical” basis to discipline G for failing to provide for his family, but not for abusing us.&#8221;</p>
<p>That bunch of lowly, $*^&amp;%#$ $%*^&amp;#@^&amp; $%*^&amp;#$es. </p>
<p>Go ahead and delete me, Jim.  I will completely understand. </p>
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		<title>By: Stunned</title>
		<link>http://sgmrefuge.com/2009/01/15/from-esther-in-chesapeake/comment-page-3/#comment-5912</link>
		<dc:creator>Stunned</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Jan 2009 15:32:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sgmrefuge.com/?p=212#comment-5912</guid>
		<description>&quot;Since DS was a little boy, he has demeaned, belittled, and yes, hurt him.  He has hit him, kicked him, pushed him against walls and on the floor, choked him, and left marks on our son.  He has tried to cast demons out of DS.  He expects compliance and expertise, but won’t train and won’t encourage. He regularly lets DS know how disappointed he is that DS isn’t more like this boy or the other boy, as an athlete, as a student, and as a person. &quot;

Acme, my heart aches for your boy.  This is so so so terribly wrong.  Why has no &quot;man&quot; stood up to this overgrown bully?  Ah, we have so much to learn as a church.  God gave each and every one of us brains.  He did NOT put into the bible how to wipe our butts, because he gave us brains to figure that out.  He did NOT put into the bible that wives and kids need to get out of abusive relationships and that the church needs to step in and freaking man up, because He gave us brains for that.  

No where in the bible does it say, &quot;Don&#039;t use your brains.&quot;  Instead it says to use the gifts God gave us.  (There&#039;s even a parable all about how sinful it is NOT to use the gifts and talents He gave us.)  Please, SGM and SGMers, USE the brain God gave you!  

Use it or lose it.  (As some apparently already have.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Since DS was a little boy, he has demeaned, belittled, and yes, hurt him.  He has hit him, kicked him, pushed him against walls and on the floor, choked him, and left marks on our son.  He has tried to cast demons out of DS.  He expects compliance and expertise, but won’t train and won’t encourage. He regularly lets DS know how disappointed he is that DS isn’t more like this boy or the other boy, as an athlete, as a student, and as a person. &#8221;</p>
<p>Acme, my heart aches for your boy.  This is so so so terribly wrong.  Why has no &#8220;man&#8221; stood up to this overgrown bully?  Ah, we have so much to learn as a church.  God gave each and every one of us brains.  He did NOT put into the bible how to wipe our butts, because he gave us brains to figure that out.  He did NOT put into the bible that wives and kids need to get out of abusive relationships and that the church needs to step in and freaking man up, because He gave us brains for that.  </p>
<p>No where in the bible does it say, &#8220;Don&#8217;t use your brains.&#8221;  Instead it says to use the gifts God gave us.  (There&#8217;s even a parable all about how sinful it is NOT to use the gifts and talents He gave us.)  Please, SGM and SGMers, USE the brain God gave you!  </p>
<p>Use it or lose it.  (As some apparently already have.)</p>
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		<title>By: Patti</title>
		<link>http://sgmrefuge.com/2009/01/15/from-esther-in-chesapeake/comment-page-3/#comment-5909</link>
		<dc:creator>Patti</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Jan 2009 14:09:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sgmrefuge.com/?p=212#comment-5909</guid>
		<description>Acme:
You have written to me before and have comforted and encouraged me with your kind and gracious words.... It is amazing to me that dear precious people (like you) who have had endured such horror and abuse can still find in their hearts to reach out to others.... it is truly the Lord who has kept your heart from becoming so embittered and cold towards anyone and everyone.  I struggle with resentment and bitterness at times towards someone in my family and it is so hard to separate the right reasons to be upset and angry, to be able to forgive and to not to continue to allow that person to keep on doing what they are doing which is wrong.... Sometimets I just want to not reach out or care for anyone because of my own pain and hurts and defeatedness.... 

I do pray that the Lord will rescue you from this evil and that you can breathe clean air someday and hold your head up and not feel guilty or shame...

Is the situation resolved?  Is your husband still out of the home?  I just wondered how long these things can go on... without SGM people actually excommunicating you for your &quot;rebellion&quot; in not allowing him to come home... in my opinon, I&#039;d be like &quot;I really don&#039;t give a flying flip about what you do or don&#039;t do... but I am outta here and won&#039;t be back so don&#039;t bother me no more, no more.....&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Acme:<br />
You have written to me before and have comforted and encouraged me with your kind and gracious words&#8230;. It is amazing to me that dear precious people (like you) who have had endured such horror and abuse can still find in their hearts to reach out to others&#8230;. it is truly the Lord who has kept your heart from becoming so embittered and cold towards anyone and everyone.  I struggle with resentment and bitterness at times towards someone in my family and it is so hard to separate the right reasons to be upset and angry, to be able to forgive and to not to continue to allow that person to keep on doing what they are doing which is wrong&#8230;. Sometimets I just want to not reach out or care for anyone because of my own pain and hurts and defeatedness&#8230;. </p>
<p>I do pray that the Lord will rescue you from this evil and that you can breathe clean air someday and hold your head up and not feel guilty or shame&#8230;</p>
<p>Is the situation resolved?  Is your husband still out of the home?  I just wondered how long these things can go on&#8230; without SGM people actually excommunicating you for your &#8220;rebellion&#8221; in not allowing him to come home&#8230; in my opinon, I&#8217;d be like &#8220;I really don&#8217;t give a flying flip about what you do or don&#8217;t do&#8230; but I am outta here and won&#8217;t be back so don&#8217;t bother me no more, no more&#8230;..&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Carole</title>
		<link>http://sgmrefuge.com/2009/01/15/from-esther-in-chesapeake/comment-page-3/#comment-5890</link>
		<dc:creator>Carole</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Jan 2009 12:01:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sgmrefuge.com/?p=212#comment-5890</guid>
		<description>Acme,

I will never grow &quot;comfortable&quot; with hearing your story, nor the hundreds and hundreds of others who have had this same type of experience in their SGM church.  The hurt and pain inflicted on you and other wives is abominable!

SGM...  CJ Mahaney, and the rest of his posse should be completely and utterly ashamed!  They should all be on their knees and their faces before our Holy God, weeping and repenting.  Then they should fall on their knees before you and all of the others they have sinned against, weeping and repenting.  (That would probably take the rest of their time here on this earth...)

It boggles my mind that they still refuse to admit, much less accept responsibility for their sin.  Is that a sign of a leader?  Is that the sign of God-honoring, God-seeking men?  

Unbelievable!!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Acme,</p>
<p>I will never grow &#8220;comfortable&#8221; with hearing your story, nor the hundreds and hundreds of others who have had this same type of experience in their SGM church.  The hurt and pain inflicted on you and other wives is abominable!</p>
<p>SGM&#8230;  CJ Mahaney, and the rest of his posse should be completely and utterly ashamed!  They should all be on their knees and their faces before our Holy God, weeping and repenting.  Then they should fall on their knees before you and all of the others they have sinned against, weeping and repenting.  (That would probably take the rest of their time here on this earth&#8230;)</p>
<p>It boggles my mind that they still refuse to admit, much less accept responsibility for their sin.  Is that a sign of a leader?  Is that the sign of God-honoring, God-seeking men?  </p>
<p>Unbelievable!!</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: musicman</title>
		<link>http://sgmrefuge.com/2009/01/15/from-esther-in-chesapeake/comment-page-3/#comment-5888</link>
		<dc:creator>musicman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Jan 2009 09:30:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sgmrefuge.com/?p=212#comment-5888</guid>
		<description>acme-

I wish your story wasn&#039;t true...even though I&#039;ve heard it before, it still saddens me that you were abandoned and abused by your husband and then by your pastors....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>acme-</p>
<p>I wish your story wasn&#8217;t true&#8230;even though I&#8217;ve heard it before, it still saddens me that you were abandoned and abused by your husband and then by your pastors&#8230;.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: work-in-progress</title>
		<link>http://sgmrefuge.com/2009/01/15/from-esther-in-chesapeake/comment-page-3/#comment-5881</link>
		<dc:creator>work-in-progress</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Jan 2009 03:31:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sgmrefuge.com/?p=212#comment-5881</guid>
		<description>I remember from your story in the survivors forum that they only ever disciplined him for not having a job, but I didn&#039;t realize that they explicitly told you that abuse was not a reason for church discipline.  That&#039;s astounding.  Wouldn&#039;t husbands love your wives as Christ loves the church be a biblical enough basis for discipline?


The more stories/details I hear, the more my response is just, Lord have mercy.  I keep thinking of the parable of the sheep and the goats, and Jesus&#039; statement that &quot; what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.&quot;(Mat. 25:45).  Does SGM actually take these verses seriously?  Because they are really on the wrong side, &lt;b&gt;biblically&lt;/b&gt;, in overlooking the abuse of the innocent.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I remember from your story in the survivors forum that they only ever disciplined him for not having a job, but I didn&#8217;t realize that they explicitly told you that abuse was not a reason for church discipline.  That&#8217;s astounding.  Wouldn&#8217;t husbands love your wives as Christ loves the church be a biblical enough basis for discipline?</p>
<p>The more stories/details I hear, the more my response is just, Lord have mercy.  I keep thinking of the parable of the sheep and the goats, and Jesus&#8217; statement that &#8220; what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.&#8221;(<a href="http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?go=Go&amp;q=Mat.+25%3A45" class="bibleref" title="ESV Mat 25:45">Mat. 25:45</a>).  Does SGM actually take these verses seriously?  Because they are really on the wrong side, <b>biblically</b>, in overlooking the abuse of the innocent.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: acme</title>
		<link>http://sgmrefuge.com/2009/01/15/from-esther-in-chesapeake/comment-page-3/#comment-5877</link>
		<dc:creator>acme</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Jan 2009 02:37:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sgmrefuge.com/?p=212#comment-5877</guid>
		<description>The pastors explained that they had a &quot;biblical&quot; basis to discipline G for failing to provide for his family, but not for abusing us.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The pastors explained that they had a &#8220;biblical&#8221; basis to discipline G for failing to provide for his family, but not for abusing us.</p>
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	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Freedom</title>
		<link>http://sgmrefuge.com/2009/01/15/from-esther-in-chesapeake/comment-page-3/#comment-5874</link>
		<dc:creator>Freedom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Jan 2009 02:18:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sgmrefuge.com/?p=212#comment-5874</guid>
		<description>Acme - wow, I feel for you... I am sorry about what you have had to go through.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Acme &#8211; wow, I feel for you&#8230; I am sorry about what you have had to go through.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: work-in-progress</title>
		<link>http://sgmrefuge.com/2009/01/15/from-esther-in-chesapeake/comment-page-3/#comment-5873</link>
		<dc:creator>work-in-progress</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Jan 2009 02:14:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sgmrefuge.com/?p=212#comment-5873</guid>
		<description>Acme,
Your story is so disturbing and saddening to me.  I was particularly struck by this sentence: &lt;i&gt;The abuse is as long term an issue as the failure to provide–and to my mind, far more serious.&lt;/i&gt;  How incredibly sad and ridiculous that you even had to explain that to the pastors.

I&#039;m disappointed that Mr. Layman was involved in your situation.  For some reason I guess I had held out some hope that he was one of the more compassionate pastors at CLC.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Acme,<br />
Your story is so disturbing and saddening to me.  I was particularly struck by this sentence: <i>The abuse is as long term an issue as the failure to provide–and to my mind, far more serious.</i>  How incredibly sad and ridiculous that you even had to explain that to the pastors.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m disappointed that Mr. Layman was involved in your situation.  For some reason I guess I had held out some hope that he was one of the more compassionate pastors at CLC.</p>
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	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: acme</title>
		<link>http://sgmrefuge.com/2009/01/15/from-esther-in-chesapeake/comment-page-3/#comment-5870</link>
		<dc:creator>acme</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Jan 2009 01:14:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sgmrefuge.com/?p=212#comment-5870</guid>
		<description>A long post, but here is the email I sent way back in 2006 to the pastors covering my family.  You&#039;ll see many similarities with Esther&#039;s story.


&lt;!--StartFragment--&gt;
Saturday, August 5, 2006 
To:  Adam Malcolm and Grant Layman 
As I was leaving the meeting yesterday in tears, I said, &quot;My husband does not like me.&quot;   In meeting after meeting, he blames me for his problems, glares at me when he looks at me, and warns me that my time to be the focus of attention is coming.  

He is angry.  He wants his home back.  He wants to be fed, housed, cared for. . . .  He wants the reputation of a good Christian family man.   He wants to continue his reign as the king of our house without cost, without penalty, without delay.

He says he wants to reconcile, but he still does not have a godly grief for the pain he has caused.   He is angry that we fear him, that some are afraid to baby sit our children because of the way he bangs on the door, and finally that others do not see that DS and I deserve his wrath.
It is not just that he does not like me.  He despises me.  He despises our son.    

Since we married in 1989, he has demeaned and belittled me.  He doesn&#039;t like that I don&#039;t wear makeup and he wants me to dress sexier (after I lose weight, of course)  He won&#039;t let me go to a gym to get fit.  He has regularly told me that I should be grateful that he wants me.  

He does not pray with me--and says the reason is that I am not spiritual enough, because I do not speak in tongues.  He tells me that I cannot hear from the Lord as well as he can and sometimes that I can&#039;t hear from the Lord at all.

He says our home is not fit for guests--thus has kept our daily lives out of the church family&#039;s eyes for years--but he won&#039;t help to clean it.   He fills the home with papers, magazines, trash, and more, but says it&#039;s all our clutter.   He has to have studio space in every home--and wanted to turn the garage into his private domain with his drums, his art, and a couch, but filled it to overflowing with trash and complained regularly that it hadn&#039;t been cleaned out. He says we do not deserve his painting in the house because we&#039;re not clean enough, so our walls are bare.    He requires that we serve him, but does not serve us.

He has ruled our home in rage.  We have all become adept at reading moods, trying to avoid his wrath, walking on eggshells, because we had come to believe his lies that we control his moods.  He has punched holes in our walls and in doors.   He screams at us, bangs on doors, threatens violence.  Since DS was a little boy, he has demeaned, belittled, and yes, hurt him.  He has hit him, kicked him, pushed him against walls and on the floor, choked him, and left marks on our son.  He has tried to cast demons out of DS.  He expects compliance and expertise, but won&#039;t train and won&#039;t encourage. He regularly lets DS know how disappointed he is that DS isn’t more like this boy or the other boy, as an athlete, as a student, and as a person. The few times he tried to play catch with DS, his constant barrage of criticism left DS in tears.

He does not provide for his family as you know, but the truth of the matter is that if he were kind and consistent and picked up roadkill for a living, I would not be sitting in the pastors&#039; offices.  This failure to provide is due to his incredible self-focus. It really is all about him.  I know that we are all selfish, but his selfishness is pathological.   It&#039;s consistently about his goals, his desires, his needs, his wants, his demands, his views, and his opinions.  
He resents any time I spend with the kids.  He resents any time he might need to spend with the kids, if it takes more work than he would like.  He expects the family to be quiet as he talks and talks.  He has grand plans for singing on stage at the main meeting--and talks about his musical and spiritual ambitions, but cannot encourage anyone else in the family to pursue their gifts.  He cannot enjoy the beach because he is not tan enough and he’s sure that everyone is watching him.  When we are at the beach or at a picnic, he goes off to do his own thing.  He expected that we would all trot around watching him take pictures at the Grand Canyon all day--despite his dying sister&#039;s battle with severely decreased lung function, DS&#039;s very real fears, and DD&#039;s physical needs as a tiny 5 year old.


I know you want my heart to remain soft towards my husband and want him to come home soon.  You&#039;ve warned me that I need to be open to this, that a long separation is a danger, and that divorce is forbidden.  You&#039;ve said that for now I&#039;m covered because we&#039;re still afraid, that the abuse is still recent enough to count.  The abuse is as long term an issue as the failure to provide--and to my mind, far more serious.

Hear my heart.  I am praying and working on not allowing bitterness to settle in my heart.  I wish G well.  I speak well of him to our children.  I stay near so I can protect them, but I allow them to see him.  I try to be fair to him.  I have tried to work this out through the church and followed the Scripture&#039;s admonition for dealing with someone in sin.  I am trying to live at peace with all men, including G.
BUT, I think that a rush to reconciliation is far more dangerous.  He cannot come home until he has produced fruit in keeping with repentance over a significant period of time.  I cannot share a bed and a roof with this man who has perpetuated violence in our home, who has hurt me for 17 years and our son for more than 10 years, who has caused us all to doubt God&#039;s goodness and sovereignty.  I have walked too long in despair to ever go back to that bondage again.

Jesus comes to set the captives free.  He condemns not only divorce but those who abuse their positions of authority, who call another &quot;Fool&quot; (Matthew 5:21-23), who cause little ones to stumble (Matthew 18:6-7).  He hears the cries of the oppressed, of the widow and the orphan (Psalm 10:17-18).  God&#039;s chosen fast is loose the bonds of injustice (Isaiah 58).
Jesus is my husband now, the father to my children.  It may be that someday G will truly repent and seek to start anew, with wooing and courtship and rededication.   This will take a whole series of miracles in his heart and in mine.

He has broken our wedding vows, perhaps not with adultery (though with pornography), perhaps not with abandonment in that he still wants to come home, but with abandonment in that he has long-since abandoned his God-given responsibilities to his wife and children: to provide, to nurture and encourage, to lead by example, to train, to be diligent.  
&lt;!--EndFragment--&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A long post, but here is the email I sent way back in 2006 to the pastors covering my family.  You&#8217;ll see many similarities with Esther&#8217;s story.</p>
<p><!--StartFragment--><br />
Saturday, August 5, 2006 <br />
To:  Adam Malcolm and Grant Layman <br />
As I was leaving the meeting yesterday in tears, I said, &#8220;My husband does not like me.&#8221;   In meeting after meeting, he blames me for his problems, glares at me when he looks at me, and warns me that my time to be the focus of attention is coming.  </p>
<p>He is angry.  He wants his home back.  He wants to be fed, housed, cared for. . . .  He wants the reputation of a good Christian family man.   He wants to continue his reign as the king of our house without cost, without penalty, without delay.</p>
<p>He says he wants to reconcile, but he still does not have a godly grief for the pain he has caused.   He is angry that we fear him, that some are afraid to baby sit our children because of the way he bangs on the door, and finally that others do not see that DS and I deserve his wrath.<br />
It is not just that he does not like me.  He despises me.  He despises our son.    </p>
<p>Since we married in 1989, he has demeaned and belittled me.  He doesn&#8217;t like that I don&#8217;t wear makeup and he wants me to dress sexier (after I lose weight, of course)  He won&#8217;t let me go to a gym to get fit.  He has regularly told me that I should be grateful that he wants me.  </p>
<p>He does not pray with me&#8211;and says the reason is that I am not spiritual enough, because I do not speak in tongues.  He tells me that I cannot hear from the Lord as well as he can and sometimes that I can&#8217;t hear from the Lord at all.</p>
<p>He says our home is not fit for guests&#8211;thus has kept our daily lives out of the church family&#8217;s eyes for years&#8211;but he won&#8217;t help to clean it.   He fills the home with papers, magazines, trash, and more, but says it&#8217;s all our clutter.   He has to have studio space in every home&#8211;and wanted to turn the garage into his private domain with his drums, his art, and a couch, but filled it to overflowing with trash and complained regularly that it hadn&#8217;t been cleaned out. He says we do not deserve his painting in the house because we&#8217;re not clean enough, so our walls are bare.    He requires that we serve him, but does not serve us.</p>
<p>He has ruled our home in rage.  We have all become adept at reading moods, trying to avoid his wrath, walking on eggshells, because we had come to believe his lies that we control his moods.  He has punched holes in our walls and in doors.   He screams at us, bangs on doors, threatens violence.  Since DS was a little boy, he has demeaned, belittled, and yes, hurt him.  He has hit him, kicked him, pushed him against walls and on the floor, choked him, and left marks on our son.  He has tried to cast demons out of DS.  He expects compliance and expertise, but won&#8217;t train and won&#8217;t encourage. He regularly lets DS know how disappointed he is that DS isn’t more like this boy or the other boy, as an athlete, as a student, and as a person. The few times he tried to play catch with DS, his constant barrage of criticism left DS in tears.</p>
<p>He does not provide for his family as you know, but the truth of the matter is that if he were kind and consistent and picked up roadkill for a living, I would not be sitting in the pastors&#8217; offices.  This failure to provide is due to his incredible self-focus. It really is all about him.  I know that we are all selfish, but his selfishness is pathological.   It&#8217;s consistently about his goals, his desires, his needs, his wants, his demands, his views, and his opinions.  <br />
He resents any time I spend with the kids.  He resents any time he might need to spend with the kids, if it takes more work than he would like.  He expects the family to be quiet as he talks and talks.  He has grand plans for singing on stage at the main meeting&#8211;and talks about his musical and spiritual ambitions, but cannot encourage anyone else in the family to pursue their gifts.  He cannot enjoy the beach because he is not tan enough and he’s sure that everyone is watching him.  When we are at the beach or at a picnic, he goes off to do his own thing.  He expected that we would all trot around watching him take pictures at the Grand Canyon all day&#8211;despite his dying sister&#8217;s battle with severely decreased lung function, DS&#8217;s very real fears, and DD&#8217;s physical needs as a tiny 5 year old.</p>
<p>I know you want my heart to remain soft towards my husband and want him to come home soon.  You&#8217;ve warned me that I need to be open to this, that a long separation is a danger, and that divorce is forbidden.  You&#8217;ve said that for now I&#8217;m covered because we&#8217;re still afraid, that the abuse is still recent enough to count.  The abuse is as long term an issue as the failure to provide&#8211;and to my mind, far more serious.</p>
<p>Hear my heart.  I am praying and working on not allowing bitterness to settle in my heart.  I wish G well.  I speak well of him to our children.  I stay near so I can protect them, but I allow them to see him.  I try to be fair to him.  I have tried to work this out through the church and followed the Scripture&#8217;s admonition for dealing with someone in sin.  I am trying to live at peace with all men, including G.<br />
BUT, I think that a rush to reconciliation is far more dangerous.  He cannot come home until he has produced fruit in keeping with repentance over a significant period of time.  I cannot share a bed and a roof with this man who has perpetuated violence in our home, who has hurt me for 17 years and our son for more than 10 years, who has caused us all to doubt God&#8217;s goodness and sovereignty.  I have walked too long in despair to ever go back to that bondage again.</p>
<p>Jesus comes to set the captives free.  He condemns not only divorce but those who abuse their positions of authority, who call another &#8220;Fool&#8221; (<a href="http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?go=Go&amp;q=Matthew+5%3A21-23" class="bibleref" title="ESV Matthew 5:21-23">Matthew 5:21-23</a>), who cause little ones to stumble (<a href="http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?go=Go&amp;q=Matthew+18%3A6-7" class="bibleref" title="ESV Matthew 18:6-7">Matthew 18:6-7</a>).  He hears the cries of the oppressed, of the widow and the orphan (<a href="http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?go=Go&amp;q=Psalm+10%3A17-18" class="bibleref" title="ESV Psalm 10:17-18">Psalm 10:17-18</a>).  God&#8217;s chosen fast is loose the bonds of injustice (<a href="http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?go=Go&amp;q=Isaiah+58" class="bibleref" title="ESV Isaiah 58">Isaiah 58</a>).<br />
Jesus is my husband now, the father to my children.  It may be that someday G will truly repent and seek to start anew, with wooing and courtship and rededication.   This will take a whole series of miracles in his heart and in mine.</p>
<p>He has broken our wedding vows, perhaps not with adultery (though with pornography), perhaps not with abandonment in that he still wants to come home, but with abandonment in that he has long-since abandoned his God-given responsibilities to his wife and children: to provide, to nurture and encourage, to lead by example, to train, to be diligent.  <br />
<!--EndFragment--></p>
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