Posted on behalf of a friend who is so very precious in the eyes of God. The following is part 1 of the Chesapeake story…. more importantly, this is “Esther’s” story.
_______________________
This is my story of Hope:
I have been a member of Sovereign Grace Ministries for 21 years. I have been married to my husband for 31 years. We have 5 children.
We were members of Fairfax Covenant Church in northern Virginia for 5 years prior to moving to Virginia Beach, Virginia where we have been members of Sovereign Grace Church of Chesapeake, Virginia for 16 years until recently when it became necessary for me to remove myself from under the Leadership of Sovereign Grace Ministries.
Before I begin, I must let you know that my story is part of the Sovereign Grace Church of Chesapeake situation. I am posting this story in order to bring hope to those of you who are presently hurting from abuse from this movement. I believe that God has heard the cries of many broken people, and is bringing forth correction to this movement as He faithfully brings all things into the light.
I want to begin my story by letting you know that it ends with my pastors repenting of their sins and confessing specifically to the grievances that I brought to them over a period of weeks and months. I followed the Biblical steps of first going to my brother (the pastors), taking others with me (witnesses), and finally bringing it to the church (including the Apostolic Team’s attention). Though there has been confession of sin and asking for forgiveness by the pastors, there still remains many concerns for those of us that were involved (especially myself, the three couples who have faithfully stood with me and others who were similarly affected by abusive pastoral counseling over the past number of months and years. We are now aware that there have been numerous cases in our church and in the movement as a whole. Having gone through this process personally, I am aware that this has exposed many flaws in the practices of this movement’s leadership. However, I am also hopeful that by God graciously exposing these things, there is hope for true repentance and real change for the future. There has been much prayer and intercession by many of us in the Chesapeake church as well as others in this movement who are aware of the battle we have fought to bring forth TRUTH.
My story begins with explaining to you my circumstances. I have been married to my husband for 31 years. He has struggled with very serious sin issues throughout our entire marriage. I became aware of his struggles within a few months after our wedding day. I was very young at the time, and I did not know who to turn to. I turned to the Lord and cried out to Him for help and wisdom.
My husband is a professing, spirit-filled believer. In spite of this, he has continued to struggle with the practice of specific sins that scripture clearly states will not allow us to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. There has been much confusion over the years as to how to view my husband. Is he a believer? Is he not a believer? This has never been clearly defined nor understood by “we” the church. However, my children and myself continued to suffer through the up and down roller coaster ride of my husband’s addictions and destructive sin patterns.
I have always embraced the teaching of the church to faithfully serve, to forgive, to extend grace, to allow love to cover a multitude of sin specifically as it relates to my husband. I have prayed and cried out to God to save my husband and to restore him. I waited patiently for God to bring restoration to my husband and marriage. I still believe God is able to do miracles.
My husband struggled with addictions, anger, and rage. This made it so difficult to endure, but God gave me the grace to walk many years. However, there was always a troubling concern deep in my heart. How can my husband be allowed to be a member of the Body of Christ (God’s Church) while still practicing known sin consistently? I trusted that the leadership of the church was doing the right thing. Also, I was so hopeful that my husband would be changed and restored. I kept on tolerating his sin.
In 1990, in the Fairfax Covenant Church, my husband was given Church Discipline. He was sent away to a ranch for a year while myself and my 3 very young children were cared for by the church. We lived with a family for 8 months until we were forced to return to Virginia Beach because of a landlord situation. The children and I lived with my parents the remainder of that year. At that time, the church had no problem with separation. However, I do know that one of the pastors there today regularly asks me to forgive them for separating us. I always say, “No, it saved my life.” I was starting to get ill from the stress even at that time. We were reunited after the ranch experience, moved to Virginia Beach, VA., and attended the Sovereign Grace Church of Chesapeake, known as Southside at the time.
My husband began to repeat many of the same sinful patterns as before. It was an up and down experience. He was in and out of jobs for years.
In 2004, things began to become increasingly more difficult. We lost our home due to very poor decisions and sin. My husband began to go into a downhill direction, and our family was suffering.
It was decided to begin the first step of church discipline at this time. They called it “widening the circle.” This meant that the pastor came to the care group and explained my husband’s spiritual condition to them. They all became aware of my husband’s specific struggles. However, this step as time went on was very unclear in its ultimate spiritual objectives.
Periodically, my husband would have a spiritual experience and seem to repent. I always hoped that this time, it would be the “real thing” and he would be restored. However, these times only proved to find him falling down even harder. So much like the scripture that says the house gets cleaned, and then 7 more demons come in.
In the beginning of 2007, the Lord warned me while in prayer that a storm was coming, and that I needed to get out of the way. It was so strong and I felt I needed to obey the Lord, but wasn’t certain as to what He meant and what this should look like.
My husband began to go out of control with his addictions. His behavior was bazaar. My children were afraid and so was I. I sensed we were in physical danger because of the strange behavior my husband was increasingly exhibiting. At one point, I had to take the kids and leave for a week because of the intense rage my husband went into.
I went to my pastor at the church and asked for input. At this point, the pastor I was receiving counsel from was having very good discernment. For the first time in 21 years with Sovereign Grace, the pastor was seriously considering whether my husband was a believer or not. He felt that my husband was not bearing the fruit of a believer. He began to counsel me that I needed to have prerogative. The pastor met with my husband and tried to appeal to him to repent. There was no response to this. My husband’s sin grew worse. He began to go more out of control. This led us into an eviction from the apartment we were living in. I became very ill physically. It wasn’t due to lack of faith. It was the huge stress of everything falling a part all around me and my children. I lost 14 pounds and was down to 102 lbs. My blood pressure was out of control sometimes as high as 170 over 105. I was very weak. My stomach shut down. My brain could not go into sleep mode. I was exhausted and felt as though I was dying. My doctor was extremely alarmed. He ran many tests to be sure I didn’t have cancer. Once this was cleared, he began to treat me for stress. I was warned that if I didn’t do something to help myself, this condition could wear my heart out and cause a stroke or heart attack. I was afraid. I didn’t want to die yet. I had 2 children still in need of my care.
God had my attention. I knew in my heart that I must trust the Lord with all of my heart and obey his direction. I still didn’t know what that would look like. Over a 5 month period I was sick and then God began to restore my health.
I must also add a very important spiritual experience I went through during all of this. The Lord convicted me that I had been walking in pride by tolerating my husband’s sin all these years, and by accepting the praises of members of the Body of Christ as they marveled at the way I walked with my husband for so many years and kept on loving and forgiving him. God convicted me that this was really wrong. I repented to the pastor and my care group one Sunday after the meeting when I asked them all to gather around me and pray for my healing.
During 2007 the pastor that had been counseling me was changed in his position in the church. He was no longer counseling me. I was given over to another pastor for counseling. This process of change was not handled well, and my situation unfortunately fell between the cracks.
As 2007 came to a close, my situation was getting extremely difficult. We were financially crashing. I had to remove myself from looking at our finances in 2007 because it was so physically and emotionally disturbing to look at the mess, and to see my husband continuing to undo everything by poor decisions and sinful practices.
Though out this time, my husband continued to be a member of the church. The earlier counsel of the pastor, who had now moved on into another sphere of ministry, was discontinued and not upheld. This was confusing to me.
In April of 2008, we were crashing so badly that I had to become involved once again in our finances. I began to try to contact the new pastor that was over my situation. I shared with the care group leader of the care group that I switched to during 2007. The care group wanted to help. They assisted us financially for that time period and thwarted the eviction we were about to go through. They also helped pay off a number of debts. The church did not help us in any way financially up to this point. The pastoral team had decided in 2007 that they did not feel they should spiritually resuscitate my husband. I asked them, “But how do the children and I get cared for?” No answer was ever given, and no financial help was ever given throughout the crisis. However, they did give me some food certificates to Food Lion one time. I resorted to getting food from other church pantries as well. The church would have been ashamed had they known that one individual that I had come into contact with even suggested that I go over to that big church on Elbow Road and see if they could help me. I dared not tell them that was my home church.
Once things settled down, my husband’s sinful patterns got worse. There was the addition of illegal substances added into the addiction pattern. I began to email the pastor regularly. This was how I had communicated with the pastors over the past 2 year period. Things were happening almost daily or weekly, so I couldn’t meet with them that often. I thought emailing would be an effective way to keep them informed.
Sometime between April and July of 2007, I finally became very desperate. I hadn’t really been getting any input or responses to my emails from the pastor who now was over my situation, so I asked for a meeting. In this meeting, I began to appeal for further church discipline. Either this pastor was totally uninformed by the earlier pastor of the counsel I had been receiving, or he did not agree with the early steps of church discipline that had already been implemented. In either case, the pastor did not agree with me. He felt that my husband was experiencing the sanctification process. I was heart broken. I begged the pastor to reconsider his position. My husband was practicing the sins listed in 1 Corinthians 5. He needed to be confronted, and according to scripture the next step should be excommunication. I reminded the pastor that the earlier pastor had started the first step of church discipline a couple of years before. I asked him where we were in the process. It was like talking to a robot. He kept taking me to Matthew 18 and telling me that I must go to my husband and confront him in love. I told the pastor that I had been doing this for 31 years. The pastor persisted in disagreeing with me. I left in tears. I felt totally alone and uncared for as a woman, wife, and mother.
I began to write emails regularly keeping the pastor aware of what was happening in my home. It got worse and worse. The titles on my emails began to be in BOLD, ALL CAPS trying to get his attention as to how bad things were. My children were crying out to me to do something. We were crashing more and more financially once again. My husband was committing his sinful practices right in front of my young son’s eyes. I communicated these details to the pastor. I finally decided to include all of the pastors in my emails. I was trying to get their attention to my situation. I believe this is also a form of “widening the circle” as Matthew 18:16 teaches us.
It was now August, and I wasn’t hearing anything from the pastor. Things were now even more desperate. I wrote an email telling the pastors that I was now considering separation from my husband. I got a phone call from the pastor the next day.
I emailed the pastors and told them that things were so bad both spiritually and financially in our home. I confronted the fact that things have always been about my husband, but never abut the kids and me. I spoke of being a spiritual widow and my children spiritual orphans. I cried out, “I can’t provide for my children and me.” Up until now the church still had done nothing to help us financially other than the
food certificates in April.
The problem is that things were so much worse by this time, and I was sensing that I needed to separate from my husband. I had become aware that the pastors of our church had decided on a new “doctrinal” stand that there was no recourse in any circumstance for a woman to separate from her husband – not even if there was abuse. The only grounds would be for adultery. They believed that separation was the same as divorce. What would I do? There began to be talk of suffering and martyrdom, etc. They believed that I was called to this marriage, and that suffering was something that we all face.
On August 24th, two of the pastors made a surprise visit to my home in the afternoon. My husband wasn’t home. They were intending to confront him and begin preparation for church discipline. I do not know for sure what changed the pastors’ minds about implementing church discipline, but I was very grateful. I ended up talking with the two pastors. This is when they first let me know personally that separation was not a recourse according to scripture.
In late August, I sensed that I needed to prepare to find a safe place for the kids and me. I contacted a man in our church who purchased, restored, and sold houses. I told him what was happening in my marriage situation. I asked if he would consider renting a small house to me. He said he would pray and consider the idea. He also felt that he should talk to the pastor first. After doing so, he decided that he would take a step back out of the way until the pastors and I resolved our impasse.
At the same time that I was appealing to the pastors to reconsider this new doctrinal stand, I was also appealing to them for financial help and care. They were so consumed with the idea of this new doctrinal stand that they did not even respond to many of my appeals for financial help and care for my children and I. Once again, they provided food certificates in late August.
On August 27th, the pastor called me to ask if my husband would be home that evening. I did not come down into the living room for this meeting. I kept the children upstairs. My husband told me afterwards that they had confronted him, and also told him that Church discipline was going to be done in a Family Meeting sometime soon. No date was given.
I continued to appeal to the pastors to reconsider their stand on separation. I wrote emails sharing research on the subject. I received no response to my emails. I decided it was time to implement Matthew 18:16 and began asking others to go with me to two meetings that eventually took place with the pastors. I invited my father who is not a member of Sovereign Grace Church. My father served as a deacon and an elder in his church for over 40 years. I also invited one of the men in my care group who had shown concern for what was happening to me. It is at this time that the three couples became aware of my situation and committed to helping me. One husband in particular attended both meetings. The three couples knew me for years. They knew my character. They knew how I had been in faith for restoration in my marriage. They knew how much I had endured these 31 years. They began to go in and have meetings appealing to the pastors on my behalf as well as in regards to numerous other cases that were going on in the church at the time. I am certain that it is largely because of these three couples and their commitment to Truth that God eventually was able to bring about a breakthrough in my particular situation with the pastors.
Things reached a crisis point with my husband, and he left our home to enter a Detox center. He was there for 8 days. My husband confessed to me during this time that he had wanted to leave me for the past 2 years. We both decided that he needed to leave. There was a problem as to how this would work. We still were under a lease that needed a two months notice. I had to take care of all of the details of a move by myself. I had no idea of where we would move.
The church discipline for my husband was delayed from its first scheduling in September due to an electrical problem where our entire church building was without power for that weekend. We even had to have church outside. It was rescheduled for the end of October. By this time, my husband was moved out and I was moving that exact weekend into a house provided by the man in our church. Incidentally, they finally gave
him permission to help me. They did have a question about how big the place I would move to would be. They wanted to be sure my husband would fit there too.
At the two meetings, I was drilled by the pastors. One meeting in particular lasted 2 ½ hours. They were trying to make me say a blanket “yes” that I would allow my husband to come home. I refused to answer with just a “yes”. I tried to explain my position. They felt that I needed to answer them. My father asked them in the second meeting what the consequence would be for me if I didn’t agree to this idea of letting my husband come home, and that is when I was told that it would be church discipline. I was totally blown away. Here I was the one being abused and uncared for, and I was now being threatened with church discipline. Throughout these weeks, I began to wail in the Spirit as I cried out in horror at what was happening inside my church by the hand of my own pastors.
I continued to confront them. I told them that there is no place in scripture that supports the implementation of church discipline on the basis of someone not agreeing with scriptural interpretation. I did not agree with them. The basis for this new “doctrinal” stand was the passage in 1 Corinthians 7:10-11. I will leave that for you to look up.
Note: Please study the Word to show yourself approved a workman that need not be ashamed rightly dividing the Word of Truth! It is important that we all know the whole counsel of God by studying the Word regularly and in its entirety. This is a protection for each of us. Praise God I had been studying the Word of God for the past 3 years having read the Bible through 3 times. God prepared me to stand firm on the Truth – Christ says the Truth will set you Free.
We also appealed to the pastors that there was much danger in their taking this kind of stand. If my husband ever harmed me or my children, they would be liable because of their counsel that I must stay in the marriage and allow him to continue to abuse my children and me.
Note: Not all abuse is physical in the sense of being hit, but it can be in the form of abandonment, lack of provision, angry outbursts that cause great fear, etc. My dad cited a case where a former pastor of his did not help a woman in her marriage situation by counseling her to leave, and he read in the paper a short time later that the husband had killed both her and their child. He felt that he carried a certain responsibility for not helping her when he could have. The kind of counseling our pastors were bringing would be forcing women to stay in unsafe marriages.
During these meetings, I saw a similar pattern that others have cited in their own cases with Sovereign Grace. They turned on me and began to address my own sin. I was confronted that I was prideful because I only wanted to talk about my husband’s sin in my emails. I had to explain that my emails were not a platform for me to confess my sin, but they were only intended as a means to keep them informed as to what was happening in my home, and for appealing for help.
I was confronted that I only wanted to call things “truth” if I agreed with them. I refuted this by reminding them that this has never been a pattern in my life in the church. If this had been, they should have had a file on me as big as my husband’s.
I was asked, “Do you have bitterness in your heart towards your husband?” This was so hard to listen to. Here I had been married to my husband 31 years and endured so many years of difficulty and now when things were unbearable they were trying to blame it on bitterness or on something I was doing wrong. I refuted this too. I had to explain to them that this was such a difficult decision for me to make. For me it was like a death. It was like a doctor coming into your room at the hospital after you have been fighting for your life, and telling you that there is no more that they can do. I had to accept that this was God’s will for me to separate. It was truly a death for me. A death to all the times I had waited for restoration and healing of my husband. Now I was having to give Him over to God completely with no idea what the future will hold for my marriage. This was one of the most difficult things I have ever endured in my entire life. I knew that God was telling me that, “I must give him over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh that the soul might be saved.” I mourned for a long time when I had to face this decision. The pastors also began to teach the church that women who seek separation and divorce are doing it because they want to be “happy.” I had to differ. I explained to them that there is no decision I can make that would result in no more pain.
The pastors would not back down. At one point in one of the meetings they even told me that they had talked to my husband at Detox that morning, and asked him if he wanted to come home. They said he had told them, “Yes.” I did not believe this to be true. My husband had just spoken with me the day before, and he did not want to come home at this time. He hoped that someday he might be able to come home. I knew in my heart that they had called him at Detox just to be able to use this to manipulate me to say,“Yes!” to their question. I refused, and one of the men (one of the three couples) asked if I could call my husband on the phone during the meeting to ask him this question about wanting to come home, but the pastor said “NO!” He refused to let us. I called my husband once I got in the car from my cell phone. He confirmed that he had not answered the way they tried to “skew” it. My husband also indicated that they had not come to visit him, nor did they seem to be showing any real concern about him. They seemed to be more interested in finding out his plans for when he left Detox.
I finally felt so desperate that I decided to “widen the circle” even larger. I would make an appeal for help from the pastor over the Virginia Region. We kept missing each other on the phone. He finally left me a message and encouraged me to go back to the pastors about my situation. I was very uncomfortable about contacting this individual in the first place, so I didn’t try to call him again. However, I did send him a copy of my letter containing all of my grievances against the pastors at Sovereign Grace Church in Chesapeake. I never heard anything from him other than his phone message to go back to the pastors. I also sent a copy of my letter to all three members of the Apostolic Team. I included a letter specifically to the Apostolic Team of other concerns I had about the movement itself. Only one member of the team responded directly to me. He suggested that I go back to the pastors. I knew then that they were not going to get involved. One of the apostolic team members, and I believe by accident, included my name on an email that he sent back to the pastors at the Chesapeake Church. This was after I sent my letter with all of my grievances and my appeal for help. He indicated that he did not want to be included in the loop of emails. He said that he had been around enough years to know how these things morph. If he got any more emails except if (I), and he used my name, sent one directly to him, otherwise he would just delete them and not open them up. This made me feel more helpless and uncared for.
The three couples continued to meet regularly with the pastors appealing to them and confronting them in love.
I do believe that the pressure put on the pastors by the three couples, and also the fact that the pastor over the region and the entire Apostolic Team were now at least aware of the situation. This resulted in a response by the pastors. Praise God, after much appealing, prayer, and confronting, the pastors finally reversed their decision to go forward with this “doctrinal” stand. The fact is, the church had never been told about this change before it was being implemented, and even church discipline was being threatened to several women in the church. They allowed me to have a meeting where I brought whomever I desired to attend. At this meeting, the pastors involved each repented of specific ways they had sinned against me.
I have to say that much pressure has been necessary to encourage repentance and confession of sin. That is why I believe many people in the church just do not trust the leadership any longer. I personally left the church after all of this. I told them that I do forgive them. And I do. But, I also would have to see as much
proof of change from them as I would my own husband. Also, I would have to see much change in the entire movement before I would trust it again. In addition, my family is in need of much ministry, and Sovereign Grace Church does not have the training nor the understanding of how to walk with people in my circumstance. Wisdom dictates that I must go where there is provision for this.
There needs to be a very strong and sincere look at the way this movement is leading the Body of Christ. There needs to be a very sincere look at the way the governmental structure is set up, and the way accountability works. The Church Body should have a voice, and a way to be covered when pastors stray in their leadership.
Note: I believe this is why the wisdom of “Elders,” and not necessarily the pastors themselves, but older men of God with proven character have been set within many churches by movements to help provide extra eyes as a protection to both the pastors and the church body.
There needs to be honest communication in the movement when changes are made, especially when there are any doctrinal positions being reconsidered. We should not just receive an announcement that the decision has been made, but we should have a part in the process. There is safety in a multitude of counselors. Iron sharpening iron is so important in our relationships. There needs to be honest communication when difficult things happen as they will from time to time. We need to be trusted as the Body of Christ to be Godly enough, mature enough, and able to handle the truth of what is happening.
I think we also need to look at a study of justice, grace, and mercy. We need to be clearer on the importance that consequences play in regards to sin. Thwarting someone from experiencing consequences may be a huge disservice to them. We also need to study the difference between forgiveness and reconciliation. Reconciliation cannot take place until there is real repentance. Forgiveness, however, can take place without repentance. True repentance requires testing and proving oneself. It is not a lack of forgiveness for
me to require my husband to prove his repentance before I reconcile to him. This may take years to happen. If it is real repentance, it will stand the test of time that it will take. If it is superficial, it won’t.
Please continue to pray for Sovereign Grace Ministries. They have a huge process ahead of them. Please pray for the church in Chesapeake. They have much healing to go through. I want to thank my dear friends, these three wonderful couples who laid down their reputations to protect my family, and for others who have equally gone to the pastors during this process, and my dear dad (78 years old) who lovingly covered his little girl, and all the other brothers in the church body especially you “men of God” who are waking up to see that you are to be alert, watching out for, and protecting your church family, your wives and children, and to see that TRUTH is always upheld at whatever the cost, even if it costs you your reputation. God can vindicate!!! Also, I want to thank my wonderful praying sisters (The Ladies Prayer Group at Chesapeake) for praying fervently for the past year for our church, our pastors, our husbands, our children, for salvations, for revival, for TRUTH. And finally for my intercessor praying sisters who though some are far off in other states have been praying without ceasing.
And most especially I want to thank my dear Abba Father in Heaven, my Savior and Lord, Jesus Christ, who is my Husband and Redeemer, and our precious Holy Spirit, my Comforter, my Helper, who seals our souls until Christ returns for His Bride. May He continue to cleanse Us, His Bride, and prepare us to meet Him soon. May we fear only Him who can – not only take our physical life, but who also can put our soul in Hell. He is the only one we should ever fear. We invite the audience of Heaven to surround our churches, our lives, our country, and our world. Greater is He who surrounds us and who is in us than the enemy of our soul. FREEDOM AND VICTORY ARE OURS THROUGH OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST!!!!
And remember my dear friends who have laid down your reputations – here is a Word of Hope for you. Truly God is using you to preserve life and to keep alive many SURVIVORS.
Genesis 45:4 “ And now do not be distressed or angry with yourselves because you sold me here, For God sent me before you to preserve life.”
Genesis 45:7 “And God sent me before you to preserve for you a remnant on earth, and to keep alive for you many SURVIVORS. So it was not you who sent me here, but God.”
Psalm 28:8-9 “The Lord is the strength of his people, he is the saving refuge of his anointed. Oh, save your people and bless your heritage! Be their shepherd and carry them forever.”
January 15th, 2009 at 1:12 am
Hi Esther… you are a very brave and godly woman! I read your post and am amazed, again, by God’s sustaining hand. I am praying for you, dear Esther! Your love for Him and His love for you is very evident! Continue to trust Him, continue to follow Him… He will never lead you astray!
Thank you for bringing these atrocities cast upon you and your family by SGM, and particularly the leaders of the Chesapeake SGM church, into the light… His Truth will prevail!
January 15th, 2009 at 1:43 am
Esther,
I can’t even imagine the pain you’ve experienced. You and your family will be in my prayers. Please remember that the Lord has not failed to notice a single tear you’ve cried, and He will never leave you or forsake you.
January 15th, 2009 at 1:53 am
Wow. This is awful.
But, if I’m reading it correctly, the pastors involved DID eventually apologize and repent, right? Esther, this is not to detract ONE BIT from the awfulness that you went through, but when I read that your pastors at least apologized to you, that gave me hope. I don’t believe that that has EVER happened before, not in any of the other “survivor” stories that have been shared with me.
Blessings, to you, dear sister in Christ! You are brave, and it blesses me to see how you persevered in your faith through everything.
January 15th, 2009 at 1:56 am
Dear Esther,
Thank you for sharing your story. What an extraordinarily difficult journey you have been on. Yet you have not turned from the Lord. As Carole says, your love for Him is evident. It is precious.
How kind of the Lord to bring along these three dear couples and the many intercessors who have stood by you and with you. It blesses me to think of them laying down their own interests and putting your needs above theirs. How like Jesus. So, although your story is full of abuse, included there too is the graceful move of the Lord as demonstrated by His dear people. Thank God for it.
It will be a privilege to join in prayer with you dear folks for the Chesapeake church.
January 15th, 2009 at 2:01 am
God have mercy on us all and heal us.
I don’t even know what to say.
I do have a question, though. Esther, when Sovereign Grace sent your husband “away to a camp,” what does this mean? Did they require that he go to rehab? Where exactly did he go and what exactly did he do there or what did the camp do with him there?
Was it their “camp”?
What does this mean?
January 15th, 2009 at 2:05 am
Esther,
You brave woman. I am praying for your family…all of you.
As I read your story, several faces were in my mind…I believe what happened to you has happened to many. Thank you for sharing it. Because of what you have had to endure, I trust that many will be able to heal.
God will work this for good.
January 15th, 2009 at 2:09 am
Esther…”Then I will go to the king though it is against the law and if I perish, I perish.” Your humility thorughout your life has been a marker for all to see. Your desire to obey the One who made you above all else is…well death it seems. Though you stand with truth and for truth, you went willingly to the slaughter, as did those dear couples with you. Your attitudes of having more fear of GOD than of MAN-all I can say is well done faithful servants. I am so proud of you as I could never-never-walked through this witht he integrity and humility you have. My situation was much smaller and GOd knew I was not the one to “Stand” as you have stood. ALthough He is raising me up…it is much due to your example of the biblical process adn again, having more fear of God than of man. I am so proud of you Esther and will continue to bo on my knees for you, your children, your husband, the church and the pastors. May God continue to shower you in peace and mercy, may you continue to stand on the Rock of Truth….God bless you for your personal sacrifice my dear sister. May God bless you.
With all my heart,
Journey Girl
January 15th, 2009 at 2:20 am
Thank you for sharing, Esther.
How horribly difficult, but how very inspiring to see the Lord walk you through this valley. He is faithful, and will remain faithful to the end!
I am a current member of a Sovereign Grace church, and am very familiar with your former church (Chesapeake) and the many dear people throughout its history that have been associated with that congregation. I am sure we know and love many of the same people. My prayers are with you, and with the believers in the Chesapeake church. May you sense the Holy Spirit breathing life into your weary soul, and may He comfort you in very tangible ways throughout the remaining storms. May the Lord protect and guide you, and protect and guide the believers in Chesapeake. May lasting, God-glorifying and Holy Spirit empowered change radically rock the churches of Sovereign Grace Ministries. May we be wise, compassionate, discerning, and may JESUS be exalted in our understanding, provoking us to worship HIM alone.
Thank you for sharing…
January 15th, 2009 at 2:31 am
I know I just posted, but can I just say I am BLOWN AWAY by Esther’s Christ-likeness?
When your circumstances definitely merit so much counsel, prayer, and support, you call us to PRAY for SGM and SGC Chesapeake. I was floored when I read this:
“Please continue to pray for Sovereign Grace Ministries. They have a huge process ahead of them. Please pray for the church in Chesapeake. They have much healing to go through. ”
You are an inspiration, Esther. The Lord is working mightily through this tragedy, and I know your reward will be very great, in this life or the next.
I am a man in awe of your example and strength.
Thank you.
January 15th, 2009 at 7:23 am
Kris,
The pastors DID apologize… but only after a LOT of pressure. The rest of the Chesapeake story is coming later, and you will see what kind of pressure it took for the pastors to apologize. (Not to diminish anything from their apology at all! I hope it was authentic and, hopefully, there has been a heart change in these men and there will be no more stories like “Esther’s”)
January 15th, 2009 at 8:45 am
Wow, Esther, that is an amazing story.
And it gives me hope (albeit a tiny glimmer,) that your pastors apologized.
January 15th, 2009 at 9:31 am
Esther,
My dear friend! You do know me because we were in care group together when we came to the Lord. I also was a part of the marriage support team that worked with one of your ladies in your prayer group. When I saw her in April and heard that she was still walking through the same stuff with her husband that we had been counseling with them in 1999, I wanted to scream!!!!Did you hear that?? Yes we had been working with this couple starting in early 1998 when church discipline was supposed to happen then. We left in 1999 and went on a church plant. I did have some contact throughout the years with her but was quite shocked to see her in 2008 and still walking through this. Actually she was being told that if she did not let her husband come home, she would face church discipline. My husband was so angry. We could not believe the stand that the pastors were taking. My husband then began to fight for this woman who was 10 hours away!! I do love him:) He actually called and asked one of the former pastors who was involved in this why there wasn’t anyone defending her. Our counsel to her was to run and fast. She needed to find a safe place where she and her children could be cared for appropriately. I talked to her in December and she is doing amazingly well. She has left and is being set free. I told her that her departure from SG was my Christmas present. I wish that she didn’t have to leave but I also knew that it was the only way that she could truly be set free. I had no idea that there were so many others walking through this. It continues to break my heart because I have so many people that I still love the are in this church. The former pastor did apologize to my husband for the stand he took in agreeing with the pastors. I do believe that it was genuine repentance. I do pray for the blinders to be ripped off of not only the leadership but also the people of this church. The problem that I see is that it will take a miracle from God for things to truly change. These patterns, doctrine, etc are so deeply rooted in the pastors and people that it really will take some one outside coming in to see them and help them. We are now in a church that has no ties in any way with anyone from SGM. It has been extremely helpful to continue to expose some of the warped teaching and thinking that I continue to have. I thank God for his mercy everyday for continue to teach me His ways not mans!!
Esther-I will continue to lift you and your family up to our Heavenly Father who is the master of redeeming lives!!!
January 15th, 2009 at 9:42 am
The behavior shown by leaders in this “family of churches” is absolutely reprehensible! They have shown themselves, over and over and over again, as brutish bullies, trying to play God in people’s lives, placing their own “personal preferences”, their own skewed beliefs on innocent, trusting-of-their-leadership, victims.
SGM leaders don’t see these people as living, breathing human beings… they are so blinded by their own tunnel vision, their “God in a box”, one size fits all mentality, that their hearts have grown cold, their consciences are seared.
And, while, in Esther’s case, they have asked forgiveness, the real question is are they going to change their SOP? Are they seeing the hurt they’ve caused so many? Are they prepared to repent and ask forgiveness of ALL they have sinned against and hurt? Do they truly want to seek change, to seek God, to FINALLY do the right thing?
Or is this just another “Please-forgive-us-so-we-can-cover-our-a****”?
Time will tell…
Esther… your courage is a sight to behold! Not only in posting your story, but the way you have lived your life in the midst of such awful circumstances. You are an inspiration to me, and your words bring great hope and strength to me and many, many others who are facing their own Goliaths.
January 15th, 2009 at 10:19 am
I’m a former member of an SGM church who still has family that attends. Can I just point something out? Perhaps the most telling moment in this story is when Esther reaches out for help to a friend for housing, and that friend feels the need to first contact a pastor. Are you serious?? Pastors are to be counselors, yes. But they are not to be running the lives of the members. The fact that a pastor would have a say over whether or not a member can assist in providing housing to someone else is beyond my ability to comprehend. Even if a member of SGM cannot see the ridiculousness of this, anybody outside of the organization would be appalled at this kind of control and manipulation. This is one of the most amazing stories I’ve ever read. One of unbelievable bravery and courage. My prayers are with you.
January 15th, 2009 at 10:46 am
Stevieboy-
Very good points.
Unfortunately, many members of SGM obviously suffer from Stockholm Syndrome.
January 15th, 2009 at 11:13 am
I have been reading the posts but haven’t posted for a while. Such a sad story about Esther. Even if the pastors did apologize, how egregiously they handled this show that these pastors are incompetent. I mean pastors can make mistakes, but goodness, this just show incompetence. Wouldn’t this type of action call for them stepping down either permanently or at least for a season.
With doing this so wrong, why would it be that hard for these pastors to apologize. Are they that blind that can’t see how incompetently they handled this?
I don’t recall Esther saying that the pastors told her that maybe her problem was due to her not submitting like she should to her husband. I remember reading where that was the counsel some pastors would come up with as a means to solve a few other couples’ marital issues. I am sure that can be the problem in some cases, but certainly didn’t appear to be the answer for the cases shared on survivors nor would it make sense to be the answer in Esther’s case.
January 15th, 2009 at 11:20 am
Steve said-
“Wouldn’t this type of action call for them stepping down either permanently or at least for a season. “
That would be a yes…
“we’re incompetent, are not above reproach, and are therefore Biblically disqualified from the office of elder, but we’re sorry”
Not good enough. “we’re sorry, we were wrong” does not equal repentance, nor does it “re-qualify” men who have disqualified themselves.
Don’t forget, these men did not “repent” on their own, but did so under great pressure.
More details concerning the actions of these men will be posted soon. I’ve had them for a while, but don’t want to overshadow “Esther’s” story.
This is her time. Let’s focus our comments, our love, and our prayers towards her.
January 15th, 2009 at 11:39 am
That these leaders are so blind that they can’t even look back and see how incompetent there were (hindsight can be a good thing) and that “repentance” only came under a lot of pressure speaks volumes.
I have posted this before, why is is that this group that claims there leadership is made up of “imperfect” people never willing to admit their imperfections.
Prov 28:13
13 He who conceals his transgressions will not prosper,
But he who confesses and forsakes them will find compassion.
NASB
Has SGM leadership forgotten this well known proverb?
It is good that various actions like these done by SGM are finally starting to be publicized.
January 15th, 2009 at 12:42 pm
Esther,
Thank you for sharing your story. We are heartbroken for what you went through and still encouraged by the way you resolved it. How are you now? How are your children?
January 15th, 2009 at 12:50 pm
Noel,
The compassion and love you show to others is incredible in light of what you and your family are going through! Only God!… His grace, His amazing grace!
Love you and praying for you today…
January 15th, 2009 at 12:51 pm
I just found out the story was posted, yet I haven’t read it because I’m leaving for work! Just wanted to say thanks for posting it! I love you ESTER!!! (because I know you!). I will tell you today who “I” am!!!
Love you, love you, love you for sharing. You are the most Godly woman I know!
January 15th, 2009 at 12:53 pm
Esther,
My prayers are with you and your kids – I am saddened to hear about the abuse you where subject to (at home and from the Pastors). You and I probably know each other (or at least know who each other is) as I was a member when the church was still known as Southside. You and your family have my support. FYI – my email is iamfreedom at live dot com
January 15th, 2009 at 1:11 pm
Esther,
May I call you Sister? I could not get through all of your story. It was too familiar in many ways and still, 5 years after I lfet my marriage, still too painful to read it all.
Esther, YOU and EACH OF YOUR CHILDREN were worth you getting the heck out of there 31 years ago. YOU and EACH OF YOUR KIDS are worth having a church surround you with care and love, lifting you up, carrying your burdens with you, comforting, grieving with you over the way you were treated, SHIELDING YOU and THE KIDS from the hell you lived through. Were these MEN that stood by and did not step in to protect you from the hell you endured. Hardly. As a woman, I would not stand by and watch a dog get treated so badly. Let alone a woman and children.
I’m so grieved you went through this. And so grieved that somewhere along the line our brothers and sisters started loving their theology more than people.
I hope you’re out. I hope you stay out. I hope you get the care and love and tenderness you need.
Many blessings,
Stunned
January 15th, 2009 at 1:21 pm
Grieved but hopeful said, “Our counsel to her was to run and fast. She needed to find a safe place where she and her children could be cared for appropriately.”
Oh grieved but hopeful, how I WISH someone had been there to tell me to take my kids and run. Actually, the wise unbelievers in my life did, but I just wouldn’t hear them, so sure God could work a miracle. How I WISH my pastors had given me the advice you gave that sister. I just wanted to THANK YOU for being one of the few voices of reason in the church today. Why people think it is ok to encourage a person to stay in an unhealthy or abusive relationship is beyond me. Though, I stayed like that for 22 years so I guess I should know how, yet now, I weep at the years lost. So glad to hear that sister got out. I hope she is receiving the loving care she needs. God bless you for your efforts with her. God gave us brains to use them. It’s about time we started.
Stunned
and grieved as well
January 15th, 2009 at 1:26 pm
Grieve also said, “I do pray for the blinders to be ripped off of not only the leadership but also the people of this church. ”
I pray that the blinders be ripped off the congregants eyes as so many of us look up to and respect the “wisdom” of the pastors. These are men. Their brains are no bigger than anyone else’s. (Though their heads may be bigger.) God has not given them more wisdom and insight into your life than He has given you. In fact, God yearns, YEARNS to be with us intimately every day. Hear His word for you. Not a bunch of men who have proven themselves to be foolish abusers of the sheep in their “care”. And certainly not men who have been trained so tragically poorly as the men who go to the pastor’s college at SGM. Yes, they think they are all that and a bag of chips. But they have NO IDEA the kind of training they are missing out on. They have done MUCH DAMAGE TO HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE. Will no one stand up and say, “No more! No further! I won’t put my family through this any more!”?
January 15th, 2009 at 1:30 pm
“Incidentally, they finally gave
him permission to help me. They did have a question about how big the place I would move to would be. They wanted to be sure my husband would fit there too.
At the two meetings, I was drilled by the pastors. One meeting in particular lasted 2 ½ hours. They were trying to make me say a blanket “yes” that I would allow my husband to come home. I refused to answer with just a “yes”. I tried to explain my position. They felt that I needed to answer them. ”
WHAT?!?!?!?! WHAT?!?!?!?!?!!? WHAT?!?!?!?!?!?!!?
Please, people in SGM, run for the hills!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Don’t think you won’t be subject to this kind of insanity next. No neck is safe.
January 15th, 2009 at 1:35 pm
Humm….I wonder how many years and how many situations have gone “unattended” to by the apostle Danny Jones. This is a shame that people suffer like this in the church for years and how many HAVE ASKED FOR HELP. Sorry but this story seems so much what everyone on this side of town has gone throught. JIM THANKS FOR STANDING.
January 15th, 2009 at 4:22 pm
Charlie,
As I read Esther’s story, my mind will FULL of the same thing at CLC. I think it’s all the apostles.
How many others have been treated like this? How many lives have been ruined?
January 15th, 2009 at 4:29 pm
I posted above under “stevieboy”.
I really think a HUGE underlying issue here is the incompotent training received by pastors at the Pastors’ College. Clergy in ‘real’ denominations are usually required to have a four-year degree, plus three years of theological training. These men go to CLC for 9 months and think they’ve learned everything there is to know about leading God’s people.
As much as I admire David Powlison, listening to him lecture for 5 days makes them “biblical counselors” as much as watching ‘24′ makes me an effective counter-terrorism specialist.
Unless and until SGM supplies their leaders-in-training with actual rigorous theological training (including truly listening to/debating alternative views), these types of situations will continue to arise. These men don’t even realize how over their heads they really are.
January 15th, 2009 at 6:02 pm
I have posted here under a different name a while ago, I believe, but just once or twice… have followed the site though, and am deeply grateful for Jim’s perseverance.
Steve, this is a significant insight. The amateur training at the PC stands in stark contrast with how highly regarded this institution is within SGM. I am not title-obsessed, but the fact that the M.Div. degree is as high as it gets within SGM’s leaders is not necessarily a sign of humility, but also one of arrogance.
I have posted on this over on the survivors, and will fit a small quote in here (not to be repetitive… well, I guess I am):
Part of the attraction SGM has for many pastors out there is SGM’s supposed “sound doctrine” which, of course, is really a fairly simple and generic hodge podge of a number of traditions, neither of which SGM is bold enough to really commit to. But a big, and unspoken part, is the attraction to really be able to lead a congregation, to be something, someone.
My church currently has one student in the PC. And, don’t get me wrong – nice guy, terribly nice guy. He knows how to say “the cross”, “greatest sinner I know”, or “temptations”. He is related to another SGM pastor, of course. His wife smiles wonderfully, too. He lifts both hands when he sings in worship, both! He reads what CJ recommends on his blog, and some Puritans too, and he knows that this stuff is the one, true and only “theology”.
And yet I know how limited he is. And I know that when he is sent to pastor a church, his authority can only work in settings in which a ground has been prepared that is similar to what that manual outlines.
Oh… and to be invested with the authority of such shining figures like CJ, Josh or Jeff. To be able to attend conferences which every member would love to attend, and maybe be taught by Wayne Grudem (superstar among evangelicals, hardly known anywhere else) at the PC. To be admired by wanna-be leaders. To be taught how to say the right things to move and shake people. To have a congregation that waits for the word of one’s mouth every Sunday. To have a congregation that makes it a joy to be a pastor, and to finally, finally be rid of the change-resistent Westminster catechism fan, the elder who doesn’t like it when people raise their hands, the young woman who reads feminist literature, the uninterested and stressed family of six…
Instead, you’ll get a fanclub on stage and in the pews every Sunday, even if your education is way inferior to your colleague in a Presbyterian or Baptist church who must endure all these people despite his Mdiv.
Who would not want that? What young man who is theologically interested and likes to voice his own opinion, if possible from a pulpit, would not be fascinated by SGM?
January 15th, 2009 at 6:43 pm
Steven and Papercup-very well said.
Papercup-funny as heck, but sadly true…
January 15th, 2009 at 7:12 pm
WOW! That’s a story. God is always good. He is good to Ester and her children. We must praise him that he kept them safe.
Kudos to the 3 couples that got involved. They have my respect.
Stevieboy/Steven: When Ester needed the housing yet the OWNER of the property had to ask the Pastors?? Sad but true. It is sick to think that when I would bless someone, my CGL actually said I needed to ask him FIRST because he had first hand knowledge of everyones financial situations and knew how people spent their money. He said “maybe the Lord is putting them thru a finacial trial and here you come to bail ‘em out. I think you need to let the Lord work on them.” So I guess when the holy spirit lead me to give to someone, I had to stop and say, well let me ask my CGL????
Well seeing how the Pastors appolgized to Ester, what about the other “8″ accusations or as the Pastors would call it: OBSERVATIONS!!!!! I guess it is an observation when they are talking to you but it is an accusation when it’s to THEM!!
Only time will tell….looking forward to the meeTing in Ches on the 25th!!!!
January 15th, 2009 at 7:13 pm
Esther, your story sounds too much like mine. Click on my name to read a little of my story.
I am so sorry–our “family of churches” keeps repeating the same foolishness destructive strategies over and over. If it weren’t for the support of my real family–and they really couldn’t help me until Gary was out of the house–I would never have made it.
I am so sorry that they keep slapping the same band-aids over broken limbs and gaping head wounds–and then telling us that it’s our fault, our lack of faith, our lack of submission, and ultimately our lot in life to live with the mess.
January 15th, 2009 at 7:16 pm
Oh forgot 1 thing….we need someone out there to clarify “the holy spirit is really moving in Ches”. I will tell you first hand I was not there. I did hear it was about a lady running thru the isles praising God the basketball team won.
January 15th, 2009 at 7:36 pm
Thank you “Esther”, for posting your story.
I’m a first time poster, a former member of SGC Chesapeake, currently attending a PCA church on the other coast. I’d heard of the church’s situation from my mother (who still attends, and is actually in the same CG as one of the couples who stood up for Esther) just before Christmas, and I’ve been praying for them ever since.
Having been raised in the church (I actually worked with two of Esther’s sons), I had was of two minds when I heard what had happened. One the one hand, I was of course completely shocked that this could happen at my home church–and involve the people it did. Those three couples weren’t just anybody, but they were longstanding members–some who had been there since the very first meeting of the church (which is longer than any of the pastors!). But at the same time, the news didn’t surprise me at all. As a teenager, I had always felt like the pastors at SGC didn’t “get it” in some fundmental way. I’d always attributed it to my then-teenage distrust of authority figures, but now I think that it was something more. There was always an air of elitism that they gave off, and they often seem too wrapped up in their own impressive vocabulary or grasp of systematic theology to take the time to listen and understand the situation of real people. In other words, they’re quick to speak and slow to listen (James 1:19).
But there was always one pastor who seemed to be the exception to this. He was the worship leader, and also led the teen/singles ministry, and I believe he was the pastor originally counselling Esther. Maybe it was that his musical talent taught him to listen, maybe it was that he was the adopted son of a former SGC pastor of the old guard and remembered what the church was like at its formation, or maybe it was that he himself had a mother who was divorced and remarried. I don’t know what it was, but he was always the one who was able to listen, and took the time to understand the situation before he gave advice. He wasn’t afraid to say “I don’t know what you should do”. He wasn’t afraid to wait, and listen.
And so what did they do with him? They sent him to the Pastors College. After 13 years as a pastor at Sovereign Grace Church, they figured there was more he could learn in 9 months in Gaithersburg.
Anyway, I look forward to post number 2 of this story.
January 15th, 2009 at 7:56 pm
Esther,
Thank you for sharing your story. It was heartrending to read. I pray the Lord will heal your life and the lives of your children.
I am grateful that He sent those couples, your dad and others to stand for you and with you and provide love and protection.
January 15th, 2009 at 8:00 pm
Very well said Bren. Yes, I agree….E.H. was (and is) the best. After he left, many that were being counciled by him fell thru the cracks. He in my opinion is and was the best SGC in Ches has ever had. Very compasssionate, very personable, very kind. It seems like when he left, out went the common sense so to speak. Many have questioned where would we be right now had he still been here. God is sovereign, in control of all things……….it will probably get much worse before it gets any better.
January 15th, 2009 at 8:01 pm
Welcome BD!
I can imagine how difficult hearing about the problems in your former church is. As much as we want to see repentance and reform in SGM and in the leadership of their family of churches, our hearts are for all of the members who are living, breathing human beings. They are real people, with real feelings… that’s what is so hard about all of this… it’s not just about abusive, controlling leaders, it’s about the PEOPLE who are greatly affected by leadership’s actions.
Our hearts and our prayers are with the Chesapeake church as they seek God and seek Truth.
January 15th, 2009 at 9:33 pm
Thank you, Esther, for sharing your painful story. You and Noel have shown such courage. So has my son, and so have many others in coming forward. It just continues to sicken me that SGM is only taking notice because the stories are getting more and more explosive. I don’t see that change will happen. I pray that they will change for their own sakes now, but I truly feel that SGM’s doors should close. Being repetative myself here but if it walks like a cult, talks like a cult……
January 15th, 2009 at 9:38 pm
Papercup: I think there is a lot of truth in what you say – the severe lack of training is partly the problem, it leaves them indebted to sov grace and dependent on sov grace. And grudem being a superstar among evangelicals is a big stretch. My friend is a reformed pastor in the E-free (grudem’s denomination) and used to marvel at the esteem he is held, he would say he isn’t held up that highly in his own denomination. MOst sovereign grace people thing that systematic theology is the title of a book written by grudem and only him. THey don’t know that htere are others. And then sovereing grace has shrunk systematic theology into bible doctrine – for the supposed purpose of making it easier to read, but convienently it cuts out everything that is against what sovereign grace teaches – specifically the church government parts where Grudem speaks against aposolic authoritcy and a top down church sturcuture.
January 15th, 2009 at 9:52 pm
Bucky – Common sense! Yes! It seems that common sense is thrown out the window in the name of doing things ‘biblically.’ There is a sexual assault (example from Survivors). Common sense says call the authorities and keep the offender away from other kids. There is spousal abuse or substance abuse. Common sense says call the police, social services, anyone who is in a real position to help protect you/your kids and get the offender the help they need too! Didn’t God create us with common sense?? It’s a wonderful thing. Let’s not ignore it because we are too busy trying to figure out how to do something ‘biblically’. Um, it is biblical to protect the weak and those in danger though, right?
January 15th, 2009 at 9:56 pm
Emmy,
Welcome to The Refuge!
Excellent comment… common sense seems to be lacking amidst all of the “doing things biblically”. SGM seems to have conveniently forgotten what “biblical” means…
January 15th, 2009 at 10:15 pm
StevieBoy–
That is what struck me, too. SGMers–out here in the land of the free, we don’t ask our pastors if we can rent one of our houses to a sister in Christ.
We don’t ask permission to leave a horrendous abusive situation.
The control exerted by these leaders is abominable. Weird. Aberrant. Dictatorial.
UnBiblical.
January 15th, 2009 at 10:41 pm
Esther,
I am so sorry to hear your story, but thank you for sharing. I am truly sorry. A pastor should NEVER think it’s alright to be so woefully neglectful and harsh. There is enough hurt and pain in this world without the church causing more of it! How are we supposed to be light to the world if we’re abusing fellow believers?
Brenderlin and Bucky, I have no desire to smear anyone’s name here, but I did want to say one thing because I was under this same pastoral team before leaving a couple of years ago because of the opressive legalism within that church. I agree with you about E.H. being far more compassionate compared to the rest of the pastoral team and I can see how he would seem wonderful compared to the others (especially after Esther’s story). But, comparisons don’t always lead to the best measure of truth. Saying that City A is warmer than City B in winter does not necessarily mean that City A is WARM… does that make any sense?
The usual SGM modus operandi is to put one person up on a pedestal in order to shame another person. I’m not saying that’s what you’re doing, it just could be a temptation here to make the others seem even more awful. No offense intended. E.H. is a good man, but he too has been deeply influenced SGM’s ways – the “obey your pastor and submit” stuff.
January 15th, 2009 at 11:32 pm
Hi, this is my first comment here at Refuge.
I posted the following comment earlier at Survivor, but it seems relevant to the line of thought over here right now as well.
On a separate thread from this one “Justme”, said:
“First, not all SGM churches have the same set of practices in regard to worship, pastoral style, whether or not parents and teens attend the same mid-week groups, whether confession of sin is built into the structure of the meetings, whether tithing is emphasized, whether the music is potentially hypnotic, etc. So be cautious about generalizing.”
My thoughts on this touch on both Justme’s point and on the present discussion of SGM’s use of the term “Biblical”.
First, SGM is committed to set “models” for all of church and life:
If what “Justme” says here is true (and I think there are some subtle distinctions between SGM churches) it is against the expressly stated desires of the the leaders of SGM. I have had first-hand, personal, and in depth opportunity to hear and interact with current SG leaders lamenting the way that some of the churches do not fully reflect the full SGM “model” of leadership approach, doctrine of sin application, giving, worship, etc. Having directly interacted with many of the churches, I also know that even “adopted” churches are unambiguously assigned the task of reordering, restyling, and revising themselves into the particulars of the designed model.
I say this openly and bluntly because they do not hide this desire and would be unlikely to deny what I am saying. Plans are put in place to intervene, instruct, or even replace/reposition leadership when it is discovered that “the model” is not being fully carried out/applied in a local situation. One of the primary (and stated) purposes of apostolic care is to preserve and promote this replication of the “model” throughout each region and beyond.
I will say that I believe there is a sincere awareness among SG leaders of a need for texture and broader experiences influencing their world, but there remains a great discomfort with distinctions and (even regional) variety in approach, practices, or even flavor.
Second, this pursuit of set “models” shapes much of the purpose and application of SGM Biblical interpretation.
All of this speaks to the SGM use of the Bible and “Biblical” definitions. It is this SG commitment to “model” that directs much of their Biblical study. Scripture is used to establish set formulas of application (Biblical fellowship, Biblical leadership, Biblical courtship, Biblical confession, Biblical child-raising, etc). We would all agree that the Scriptures speak vitally into each area of life, but SGM seems only content when precise practices and methodologies can be defined and enforced.
Gone are the Reformation doctrines of the individual conscience and the priesthood of every believer. Instead of teaching Biblical principles and informing a Biblical worldview that provides a course for a rich, Christian life – people are provided with a defined set of practices to shape their lives. Many of these practices are not “unbiblical” and may even be one legitimate option for applying a “Biblical” principle, but they are presented as the clear “Biblical” expectation.
These “models” for every area of life cannot (without an assumption of a sinfully rebellious spirit) be challenged or sidestepped by church members without (overt or implied) suspicion, correction, rebuke, or even discipline – even though the leaders may radically alter these practices every few years.
January 16th, 2009 at 12:05 am
Verona, I just really liked E.H. He actually drank margaritas and beer! I went back and read my comment and I didn’t think I was comparing. I just liked him better, that’s all. I mean, I have some friends I like better than others. Is there anything wrong with that? At least he would look at you when you were talking to him and not all over the room like some others. He always had nice things to say to me. He seemed genuine to me that he really loves the Lord. I pray the Pastors college doesn’t ruin him……………
I would actually have him over for dinner if he came thru Chesapeake again. Some of the other Pastors have said some really “off the cuff comments” to me that I thought I would die had I not known they were Pastors and I found out later.
January 16th, 2009 at 12:07 am
takingnote-
Excellent!
January 16th, 2009 at 12:16 am
Esther, thanks for having the faith and courage to share your story – I thank God for your brothers and sisters there in the Chesa church who are standing up for truth – the God you are not alone in this..
BUcky and others from the church who are posting here – can I just tell you how encouraged I am that you are reading and contributing to the conversation here?
Everyone at my former church still has their heads stuck in the sand about the situation there it seems, and I get discouraged. I am glad people are aware of things going on – I’m curious, what is the current “talk” about the blogs in SGM churches? Is it said from the pulpit there are blogs, but avoid them, is it discussed in small groups?
I know for certain that at least 5 families from my church know of at least my blog. What I can’t understand is why they aren’t reading this blog and survivors blog – I think if they did, at least they’d “get the big picture” like you guys have been able to at the Chesapeake Church and the brothers and sisters at the Fairfax church have..I just find it interesting.
Jim, do you have any idea if there is a wide-spread approach to the blogs in the churches? Sometimes I think my former church falls through the SGM cracks because there is only one family who talks to another SGM family – nobody else from the church here knows other SGM people. So they are isolated. Isolated and deceived. Please pray for them that they would see the truth revealed as those in Fairfax and Chesapeake are seeing..
January 16th, 2009 at 12:21 am
so in the last 6 months alone…
- two churches (San Diego and Aurora/Denver) have displaced/replaced long standing pastors without notice
- one has two reported cases of sexual abuse (Fairfax)
- one is in the midst of splitting as a result of unbiblical pastoral “care” (Chesapeake)
I’m sure we can add to this list, (but I can’t publicly) but this doesn’t seem normal to me given the time frame and extent of things..I wonder if CJ is thinking he needs a raise since he has to “put up with” all this damage control….
January 16th, 2009 at 1:58 am
Comments on EH - I knew him well long before he was a Pastor (since I left the Chesapeake Church). He always had a big heart, but the issue (as mentioned before) is that he would ALWAYS submit to SGM and it’s teachings. I wish it wasn’t true, but wishing something isn’t true doesn’t make it true. I think inside he WANTS to do the right thing, but he has been so conditioned to do the SGM thingm he thinks that is the right thing. It is sad and unfortunate that it is that way – then, they ship him off to PC to break him down and totally into the SGM mold. He was sent and has been told he is getting a church plant because he is a company man. He’s a smart guy and it’s sad to see that he is just following orders – I really wish it wasn’t true because he could be a really good pastor, he has a gifting to listen to people. He just needs deprogramming.
BrenDerlin – I probably know you too! I left in 94 – I couldn’t stay anylonger in good conscience.
January 16th, 2009 at 2:07 am
Precious Esther… I don’t know the entire situation, but it sounds like you are the mom I used to exchange babysitting with way back when. Even if you’re not, I just want you to know I’m sorry for your pain and for the horrible way things were handled. I am praying for you and praying with people who stood by you, and Steve and I will continue to pray. In fact, he prayed all day today with you and the church in mind. Please let me know if there is anything I can do for you — tangible physical help or emotional support or whatever you need. God bless you and the kids!!
January 16th, 2009 at 4:51 am
Luke: 10: 25-37…..an expert in the law asked of Jesus ”What must I do to inherit eternal life?” Jesus answered: “LOVE the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength, and with all your mind, AND,
”LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF”
“You have answered correctly, ” Jesus replied, “DO THIS AND YOU SHALL LIVE”.
Jesus goes on to tell a story of a priest and a Levite (both religious men) who avoided and passed by a man beaten by robbers and left for dead. Then a man from Samaria passes by and bandages his wounds, loads him on his own donkey and takes him to town for help.
Jesus: “Which of these three men do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?
The expert in the law replied, “The one who had MERCY on him.”
Jesus told him, “Go and do likewise.”
And I would ask this question : Who had mercy on Esther when she was wounded and bleeding? Who came to her, bandaged her wounds and took her for help? Jesus is clearly talking about having compassion and how we must have it as our priority after loving God. Whether for the pastors who have sinned and yes , unfortunately I think they have sinned in this situation or for the broken woman. It seems to me that to be like Jesus we have to look at what he did and how he acted. He always had a big heart for the broken, wounded and suffering soul. Man, woman or child: he esteemed them all. He never looked upon a woman as inferior but loved their faith, saw their need and even appeared first to a woman after his resurrection.
Towards the pastors we need to have compassion for who among us hasn’t sinned? Go to Jesus and he will forgive you.
Esther, I believe you will indeed see his face!!! Rejoice, he has given you great faith and grace.
January 16th, 2009 at 9:29 am
Freedom, I agree with you about E.H. having a really big heart. Just been drinking too much of that Kool-aid y’all have been talking about.
Bucky, point taken. Yes, where the others seem like plastic robots, E.H. actually cares and can have a decent conversation with you. And he has far more common sense – that is much needed in SGM! On a side note - if it’s beer-drinking, beer-brewing folks you’re looking for you need to come over the Presbyterian side – or at least the Presbyterian church I’m going to now – we have plenty of ‘em and lots of common sense too (although the men don’t drink margharitas that often)
January 16th, 2009 at 9:42 am
Welcome to all you new folks! So glad to have you dear Chesapeake folks and others added to our discussion. Great comments!
Taking Note, boy do you have good insight of the situation. Particularly, I appreciate your certainty that SGM purposely goes about “reordering, restyling, and revising themselves into the particulars of the designed model,” and that this is, in fact, a primary, stated goal of the apostolic team. I have long thought this MUST be the case because of the similarity of our stories here. In many instances, the pastors’ responses to our dissatisfaction or confrontation were nearly identical, though our experiences were in different decades and in different states.
You also said, “gone are the Reformation doctrines of the individual conscience and the priesthood of every believer.” Ironic that SGM lauds themselves as Reformed when these pivotal doctrines are sorely lacking in their model!
Someone else has said (I can’t find it again to quote!), SGM sincerely believes they have God’s mind on Biblical Christianity and what it looks like (the “model”) in our society. This comes across as arrogant to us, but they think it is GOD! In some instances, I believe they are holding onto their doctrine, defending it as though THEY are being persecuted by folks who haven’t yet been enlightened to the “model”. They think this is HONORABLE, to be persecuted for righteousness sake. I believe they GRIEVE, in some measure, when they see one of us drift into mediocre Christianity (anything unlike the SGM model) or worse yet, when they are forced to subject one of us to church discipline, driving us away from the “happiest place on earth.” (Although I will say, I think there were some of us they were GLAD to be rid of! heh heh) To be removed from being a part of their SGM model would be a NIGHTMARE to them. Add to that the fact that their livelihood is wrapped up in SGM and you have something of a perfect storm.
I am gratified to hear that dear Esther got a much-needed, sincere apology. I applaud it! But for those of us here, there is still concern that the root problems remain. Indeed, it seems a long road back requiring much humility for them to get to the root of these errors and allow the Lord to re-lay the very foundation of their ministry.
Seems impossible with man, but God is still in the picture! So we pray to that end.
January 16th, 2009 at 9:49 am
INC,
How you doing?
Notw and Anxious,
Praying for you!
You too, canary!
January 16th, 2009 at 10:42 am
You know, it’s strange. People of Destiny started out as a house church / restorationist / charismatic / shepherding church. (There’s something for you to Google!) Throughout the 80’s and 90’s, they slowly shed all of their old teachings and became more Calvinistic (not Reformed!), and more evangelically mainstream. There is however, at least one holdover from those days, and that is their church polity. “Hey, we were completely wrong about everything, except apostolic authority! So, I’m still a (self-appointed) apostle!!!” Their teachings on the church resemble Watchman Nee more than John Calvin. Now, they’ll never publicly acknowledge their debt to Watchman Nee, but anyone who is familiar with his writings can see they absolutely are influenced by him.
January 16th, 2009 at 11:18 am
Steven.
Fascinating.
As the SGM doctrine ‘matures,’ their polity does not follow, since adopting a reformed style of polity would mean giving up control of their churches/pulpits/finances/pastoral callings, etc., to the people in the pews through a representational elder/deacon model.
You are really on to something here.
January 16th, 2009 at 12:03 pm
Yes, ReformedT! To adopt reformed polity would require relinquishing control and they can’t do that or the “deck of cards” (been reading the Pensacola post) will fall. But what if God WANTS the card house to fall? I mean, if it’s not built on the firm foundation, the solid rock, on pure religion (which ironically would have to include serving dear Esther as she represents a widow abandoned by her husband and pure religion is caring for widows and orphans), why would He want it to stand? I’m excited about this website and the survivors blog, too. If we can be careful with our posts and honorable in our hearts toward one another, these blogs can be an avenue of repentance for the pastors and a place of healing for those who’ve been injured.
A pastor can come on here anonymously and repent. He can spend time in prayer alone with God and come forward and apologize to his congregation. Then he can pray some more, bring a few more folks with him and go to the apostles. None of that can happen without him first reading these stories and without God gripping his heart afterward. So thank you, Jim, for providing an open door and a path of reconciliation to all involved. I pray that soon those who have caused injury will take the opportunity to come here and speak to the wounded.
I speak as one who now has no problem with anyone in SGM. God has sovereignly (perfect use of the word!) brought SGM people back into my life ten years later, and reconciliation has taken place. That’s why I believe with all my heart that it’s possible for true reform and reworking to occur within SGM. With God, all things are possible!
January 16th, 2009 at 12:03 pm
While I agree that the training one receives at the Pastor’s College does NOT make one competent for counseling and doe sliettle but to puff one up with pride, I think it is short sighted for us to think that 4 or 7 years it takes for one to get their MDiv is all that much better. The problem with the guys going to SGM’s PC is NOT that the time is so too short.
Trust me. My family is lousy with MDivs. Every married woman in my family is married to a man with an MDiv. (Except Mom, who when she married Dad, he was enrolled at Princeton to get his MDiv, but after pastoring a small church for a time, knew that God was calling him to be an engineer and not a pastor. So instead, he was a lay minister instead.) Spread the net out further in my family to my cousins and there is me and one other cousin NOT married to an MDiv. Having that MDiv does NOT make one a competent pastor. It only proves that you can handle things academically and can get through a few years. NOTHING else. (Sorry, that was my ‘don’t be thinking that academics PROVES anything other than academic ability”.)
Besides, the first apostles and pastors were fishermen for heaven’s sakes.
January 16th, 2009 at 12:08 pm
Esther is an awesome example of how to walk through something with grace and humility before the Lord, eager to do what is right.
I commend your words, you spoke without bitterness or malice.
Thank you for following the Lord and being eager to hear His voice to you.
God heals, God redeems, God is at work at all times in His people.
He is not limited by us, or by circumstances, or by poor decisions from those around us and over us.
Thank you for being a living example to all.
You have approached this biblically and with love, thank you.
On another note:
Can we please not bring EH into this? He is not involved, and has been 100% above reproach his entire tenure. Anyone that knows him would never speak an ill word on this (or any) blog about him, and idle speculation about just *how* good a pastor he is, or making general observations about how comparisons work and applying them to a specific person like EH, are pointless at best.
He cares for the sheep; this is what it means to pastor.
Please resist the temptation to widen the circle of criticism beyond the scope of what has actually transpired.
Thanks, guys.
January 16th, 2009 at 12:14 pm
Billy,
Welcome! Your post was stuck in moderation, and I deleted it while trying to approve it.
I’ve re-posted your comment. We don’t place people in moderation, wordpress has a mind of it’s own.
Excellent post, and I like the balance you bring in regards to EH.
If I made a mistake while reposting your comment, resubmit, and I’ll delete my repost.
January 16th, 2009 at 12:16 pm
We have many new guests, and I’ve been a poor host in not welcoming you to the site.
Please forgive me-we are so glad you’re here!
January 16th, 2009 at 12:18 pm
I agree…E.H. has more compassion than the others…but also is “under” SGM. Because of his family, I believe he is more sensative adn I LOVE his wife-who gave me the best counsel ever when she told me to pick up and RUN out of Denver with my children
…I have often wondered if EH “corrected” her when she got home but will never know. On the flip side I have also been the recipient of poor (neglect) counsel from EH-although it was a long time ago. This to say, I would have the most hope of him to return to the church and lead it in humility and no others on staff presently there. The bent of legalism and “authority” are more than scary. Yes, the pastors did repent to Esther (some) but fail to see the “picture”…they just did the “checklist”. Are we being led by scripture and the Holy SPirit…or by the “checklist”….you SGM-ers know what I am talking about. Yes I sinned, please forgive me and these are tangible, practical ways to change and guard for the next time. Sounds perfect, sounds right….unfortunately it gets twisted into a check list and teh heart is not truly affected ot repentant. A friend in Denver called me a few months ago and wanted “the truth”. THeir words were…”we have all been under a checklist instead of hearing from the True Teacher…we have held our Pastors int hat position.” I think this is the true for alot of us…and unhealthy balance. Easter, your discernment is amazing…and your “quiet” faith has become a lioness. I am amazed at your story, humility and TRUTH!
Juli…can you send me your email address again? Or ask Jim too? I would really like the opportunity to talk more in depth with you…again
BrenDerlin…didnt i run into you on the “other coast” at your church…small small world. wanted to talk to you more but couldnt because who i was with…:-) email me too!
journeygirltruth@hotmail.com
-And anyone else who wants to contact me…and Jim I am slowly getting the courage but still have lots of fear of man….keep praying for me
January 16th, 2009 at 12:18 pm
Is there such a thing as 100% above reproach….????????????
January 16th, 2009 at 12:23 pm
Stunned –
Good point. Academics is not sufficient. But it can at least be a starting point.
There is a big difference between education and indoctrination.
January 16th, 2009 at 12:28 pm
Billy…this was not a criticism….just also want to be careful of the balance again…not holding anyone above reproach is a scary place to be…no one is above reproach. No one is without sin, all of us have missed the mark more than once…we need to be merciful but be committed to “see” things and not brush them aside. Every pastor in the world is over worked, over used and comes home exausted every day. The call on their life is one of death. WE must also respect that call and be grateful that men respond to this call. I love my Pastors, respect my pastors, Love EH and GREATLY respect him…lets remember that no one is perfect and we all again, miss the mark from time to time. We must not make eacother “too high” in our eyes, but remember that we all are in need of the SAviour and his grace every day.
And honestly, I think its good to remind ourselves that God is in control and that there are certain men of high character that we hope God uses. All for his glory brother and the good of the Gospel and the church….this is my hope and prayer…
So hopefully this is more of a call to be careful of the balance in which you hold your pastors. THey are just men, serving God and serving you to the best of their ability…which their abilty may be rotten from time to time…but just like Esther…we can show them mercy, but lovingly appeal and show them their faults….just like we are commanded to do in the bible…again “…no one is above reproach…” including US!
January 16th, 2009 at 12:33 pm
Charlie,
That is exactly what I am talking about.
You are bringing what a general observation, and applying it to a specific person, in the context of a discussion about that person.
Scripturally, our elders are to be “above reproach” obviously this does not mean that Jesus can be the only elder because he is the only perfect one, does it?
It is wrong to imply, insinuate, or hint that someone is disqualified as an elder or pastor based on the fact that they are not sinless.
January 16th, 2009 at 12:35 pm
Gracie, I just saw your comment. I’ll leave a brief one on my story so as not to veer this thread off. I don’t have time for more right now.
January 16th, 2009 at 12:38 pm
Also,
Bucky: you said ” I will tell you first hand I was not there.”
is a contradiction.
This is at best a second-hand account if you weren’t there. If it travelled through more than one other person between who was there and you, it is a third, fourth, or fifth-hand account, that is how that expression works.
I was there, and that is not what she was saying at all.
Again, please keep idle speculation and guesses to ourselves.
January 16th, 2009 at 1:00 pm
Jim, you know what I am talking about… I know the PC grad & family at your former church, you know my church and its PC grads. We are lauging together
January 16th, 2009 at 1:23 pm
Billy,
I am no longer blind. Sorry
January 16th, 2009 at 1:25 pm
And oh yeah…thanks for your general observation.
January 16th, 2009 at 2:06 pm
Bucky,
That woman was not screaming about a basketball game…she was shouting the cries of Mercy and Worthy is the Lamb. She also said that people could shout for a basketball game and yet not shout out to the one who saved them from damnation. How you got that horrible story is beyond me and very sad that someone would so mockingly mis-construe what was The Holy Spirit was really doing. I would go to the person that told you that and direct them to the woman and ask her exactly what was said.
Charlie,
pretty harsh, but I understand the sentiment…I am no longer blind and it is very hard for me to be paitent with those still blind and spewing the typical soverign grace-isms that we are all so famiiar with, it povokes me to no end when I hear…”I know you are not a liar, but how can that possibly have happened?” It doesnt make sense what happened to me or others because we trust our pastors too much, and assumming all is well and under control. All is not well and all is under their control…here are my rantings of MY STORY not others. SO I am not taking on anothers offenses (which is what i am often charged with) i am only speaking of my story, my temptations and my own struggle with pain, hurt and bitterness. I am so grateful to not be bild as I feel closer to the Holy Spirit and My Heavenly Father than ever. I didnt kn ow I was blind, friends even tried to show me, appeal to me, and yet their I stood…a strong pastors wife, defending my husband and defending the church. It seems right, even biblical…but in truth…I WAS A CAPTIVE, captive to the wrong master…Oh dear GOd in heaven, I was captive to the wrong master….Praise the Lord for His love and deliverance….praise God for setting the captives free. And Esther and I are only two of many….
January 16th, 2009 at 2:31 pm
Charlie, that was a general request. Not an observation. But nice try.
Again, you say something like “I’m no longer blind”
and the implication is that I am, but you don’t have to back it up with anything substantive, because all you did was make a general statement, yet the implication is clear, because of its context in this discussion.
That is a weak tactic.
January 16th, 2009 at 2:38 pm
Gracie,
Thanks for praying.
Esther, thanks for your courage in sharing your story.
There are just no words to respond with…
[[[[[[[[Esther]]]]]]]]
January 16th, 2009 at 3:43 pm
I am not an attorney. I don’t have to back anything or defend anything. This is a place I can say whatever I want.
I have relatives that are just like you….
January 16th, 2009 at 3:54 pm
I’m so glad to see so many active SGM members here, and so many who have also recently left. I guess I’ve been on the blogs since last April, when I left, and I haven’t noticed this many people still “in crisis mode” all at one time..I don’t know what to call it, but clearly if you are in the Chesa church, your situation is “hot” and unresolved as of yet.
I realize that the bottom line is:
we’re on a blog
many of us don’t know each other too well
many, if not all of us,have been hurt to variying degrees by SGM
the Lord used different means to open our eyes, convicted us of different things, and used diferent means to draw us out (or in some cases, to keep us there for the time being)
we are the Body, and we do have gifts, and they will manifest even here
I just wanted to encourage us to pray for one another as we see things come out on here. Lots of emotions are being churned up right now..I really desire to continue seeing this blog as a place of refuge, peace, encouragement, and where Christ is exalted. It is because of THAT environment that I have seen on the Refuge that I am still here. It encourages healing, not hinders it.
OK, “public service announcement is now over” – please resume your normal programming
Love yu guys!! I really mean that!! You are ALL a blessing to me!! I wish I could meet with each of you in person and have a great big praise and prayer session! Wouldn’t that just be awesome to do together?
January 16th, 2009 at 4:09 pm
Billy,
No where in my post did I question EH’s character, no where, no how. if you notice, people came to defend him. And you will notice the issue is the SGM koolaid (we call it corporate koolaid in the business world, LOL!) – Eric has been drinking the SGM koolaid since he was a kid. His Dad was pastor in SGM for cying’ out loud. The koolaid is the issue, EH is a wonderful person, but the KoolAid is the issue. I wish he would get detoxed before it gets him – I don;t think it’s too late for him.
JourneyGirl – Nice words about M – I could totally see her saying that and she did the RIGHT thing, no matter what consequences she would have to face for her decision. I DO NOT even want to think about what they are doing to her up at PC. It’s been posted about what they do to pastor’s wives at PC, sounds scary. I’d hate to see it happen to her…..
January 16th, 2009 at 5:16 pm
Billy,
My sister was one of the women counseled by E.H. and betrayed by E.H.: so don’t play the “don’t touch my annointed” card in this game. Believe me, you don’t want to go there.
January 16th, 2009 at 5:42 pm
I’m going to step away for a bit and pray since I can’t get the photo of my face off these posts and I don’t have time to craft the perfect posts that say exactly what I mean to say. That’s the problem we all have here online.
My heart is FOR this denomination. I want the Lord to be victorious and the church to be spared more division. But I also want freedom for everyone who has been harmed and that includes pastors and Care Group leaders. You have ALL been harmed by the enemy of our souls and his plan to take a good thing and twist it into a bad thing, using CJ Mahaney and others to do so (unwittingly). Yes, God is sovereign and yet, we all know it’s never His plan to cause harm. He doesn’t condone rape and murder and incest. No one can say that when those things happen, it’s His sovereign plan that they did. So we know He is not pleased that these things are happening within the church. That people are being damaged. But somewhere in the middle of this, I do see a sovereignty. He is working in our midst. Working toward fulfilling the destiny of the former people of destiny movement. He won’t be mocked. He will only let deception go so far before He roars in with His mighty power. That is what I look forward to seeing with excited anticipation.
I’ve been gone for a long time and have developed a lot of perspective on what happened to me. My story wasn’t unique. It’s just that I came to Southside Church straight away after getting my master’s in theology. I sensed that something was not right, but couldn’t put my finger on exactly what it was at the time.
The most difficult thing for me to bear now, ten years later, is the idea that I abandoned you all. I knew doctrine better than many of you because I had just gotten my degree. Yet I said nothing. I’ve already apologized over at the survivors blog many months ago, but I want to apologize again here. I also want to apologize to Esther because I knew what was going on even then and was encouraged to just pray and keep it to myself. We were young and inexperienced and didn’t know what to do, but looking back on the situation, there was much we could have done to be more supportive. Instead, I watched as Esther served others tirelessly and with abandon. Even though we know she WAS tired and weary and worn and wounded. Please forgive me, Esther.
To the rest of you, maybe I’ll blog about all this one day soon. Right now, I will leave you to your discussion and head to my prayer closet. God’s perfect will be done!
January 16th, 2009 at 8:00 pm
quietobserver wrote: My sister was one of the women counseled by E.H. and betrayed by E.H.: so don’t play the “don’t touch my annointed” card in this game. Believe me, you don’t want to go there
Wow – I feel for your sister and you, I know that when someone hurts your family, you hurt too. Thank you for commenting! I can feel for you – I had to work out my own issues with E with in myself, and I finally understood it – it’s the kool-aid. That DOES NOT absolve him of the hurt and damage he has done because of the kool-aid, he is still responsible for his actions. Forgiveness does not mean you automatically trust someone hook, line and sinker again because you forgave them. A relationship (married, friends, etc) is a two way street. As much as I know E has a big heart, he is responsible for his own actions and his own part in what he has done. Following the leader does not recuse someone of their crimes.
The one thing everyone needs to know about EH and the koolaid – he’s drinks it day and night. If he is “corrected” by a sr pastor, he will stand corrected. If a Sr Pastor asks him about something told to him in “confidence”, he will give out the information. Remember, SGM keeps records on everyone. I think Jim posted how they have their own private forum. I wonder what is talked about on it…… As I said before, E has a big heart, he’s been on the koolaid so many years, he does what is expected of him. Even if he does the right thing first (as I know he has in cases), he will turn around and do the SGM thing (as I know he has). E’s issue is the koolaid has taken over and he is responsible for his actions.
January 16th, 2009 at 8:22 pm
Charlie,
you said:
“I am not an attorney. I don’t have to back anything or defend anything. This is a place I can say whatever I want. I have relatives that are just like you….”
Wow, you are now trying to play the guilt-by-association card and we don’t even know who you are talking about…wow, grasping.
January 16th, 2009 at 8:59 pm
Is your first name hill ??? and you probably go to the Sovereign Grace Church I left. The prophecy mike was lined up with folks like you…. I guess your 100% above reproach remark only lasted a few hours…what a let down heh?
January 16th, 2009 at 9:01 pm
Billy and Charlie…may I please call a “truce”? Not to be offensive, but your comments, mainly aimed at eachother, are detracting from Esther’s story and people’s hearts of concern. And Billy, if I offended you with my post I do apologize. Was not im ny heart as I love the H family and am very, very close with them. EH married me for heaven’s sake. This is not an attack on his character just a “general” concern for the Pastors in Ches. Love you guys and appreciate your comments before, but it makes people like me who’s story hasnt been told yet, scared to come forth and being attacked. Sorry to be a girl about it, but would you guys mind? Esther is a dear friend of mine and I know she would be hurt to think she set up a forum for people to pull punches on. I really hope I havent offended you…if I have please email me
jorneygirltruth@hotmail.com
thankyou
journey girl
January 16th, 2009 at 9:09 pm
I’d like to add my “yes, and amen” to journeygirl’s call for a truce. Take it outside, boys.
January 16th, 2009 at 9:10 pm
Journey Girl,
In my journey, at my church do you know how many times I have been stepped on by people just like billy. No, I don’t know him, but it is just another example of a “belittling bully” I mean billy.
I’ll stop just because you asked……….
January 16th, 2009 at 9:11 pm
Thank you Charlie.
January 16th, 2009 at 9:18 pm
Wow, sounds like a lot of angry words on here…
Sorry to open a bag of worms about E.H., and again, I like and respect him in many ways. I just wanted to be sensitive to those who have not received the BEST of care from him – sounds like there are a few on this blog. I guess all I’m trying to say can be summed up with this (maybe someone has already posted this):
“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” (Edmund Burke)
January 16th, 2009 at 9:24 pm
As a current member and CG Leader, my eyes have been open to much recently. It has been open to things I never knew were happening. I was at both two meetings held recently at SGC Ches. The first, was the one referenced by Esther. The second was what appeared to be a grand slam for our pastors, as they and Gene Emerson proceeded to castigate the families who brought these issues to the forefront. This is where I began to question what the heck is going on. (I know all three of these couples, and a whole lot longer than most of the pastors, and they are the last families you would figure would make waves, had it not been true!). When we wanted to discuss the issues openly, Gene shut us up. That didn’t work, and two men rose up and questioned him. One, in particular, I’m sure, made Gene pee his pants. Way to go SZ! Many stand with you, and we may not be silent for much longer!
…and just for the record: EH is just as much a part of the problem at SGC Chesapeake, as any of the other men. For Billy to say he was 100% above reproach and not involved is simply ludicrous. I recently found out that he gave the exact council that Esther was given to another woman in SGC Chesapeake, and she has since left the church, resigned her SGC membership and filed for a divorce. He, as I have understood, asked her to forgive him, much like the other pastors asked Esther to forgive them…
Alas, EH is undergoing indoctrination at the PC as we speak, and if there was any ”sheep caring” left in him, I’m sure it will be taken care of by JP and his men. This is proof positive to me that it is much more a SGM issue, as it is a SCH Ches. issue.
THIS SCARES THE HECK OUT OF ME! But, I’m sure if I tell people about it, they might sense “a root of bitterness” in me!
January 16th, 2009 at 9:33 pm
Long Sufferer,
Thank you for speaking up.
I’ll be exposing as much as I know about the whole dirty deal this weekend.
I’ve have a ton of emails regarding Chesapeake. If anyone wants to add to the pile, now would be the time.
jim@sgmrefuge.com. The only names I’ll post will be those of the pastors.
January 16th, 2009 at 9:41 pm
JG – well said
Long Sufferer – good to hear from you and that your eyes are open. I really hate what they are doing to E up at PC – it’s really too bad. I also feel really, really bad for M as it’s been posted what they do to pastor’s wives in PC……….. FYI, both shunned me…..
January 16th, 2009 at 11:41 pm
I second the kudos to SZ for standing up like a man and defending his friends. A job well done. And one for which people who were not there are extremely grateful.
January 16th, 2009 at 11:51 pm
I’m confident that many will be standing up soon…and heading for the door.
January 17th, 2009 at 12:06 am
Forgive me if someone else already said this (can’t read all 92 previous comments!), but the errant email from the apostle – the one in which he washes his hands of the whole affair and instructs the pastors not to bother him again – should be posted in full for the entire world to see. This is the callous, compassion-free disregard for believers in desperate need, that SGM members have been up against for over 20 years. What he wrote in secret should be shouted from the housetops – with his name attached!
January 17th, 2009 at 12:45 am
Lion Heart,
Well said. Sometimes people can get angry and emotional, here. It is understandable. Yet, we should all remember to be courteous, as much as possible. Let love be our guide! Also, I like your name!
January 17th, 2009 at 1:35 am
I definately sense a shifting on the tone here..so I’m still going to be in prayer as well.
Billy and Charlie, thanks for understanding the request to keep things on topic here and focused on healing and revealing truth. These blogs have never really been so focused on ONE church before, it makes for an interesting situation certainly – so many people posting who know each other personally (and currently) and drop names and situations others don’t know…
For a while there I felt like I was sitting in on a conversation I should not have been listening to – and that is a first for me on this blog. There’s some information I just don’t think I need to know. It felt like eavesdropping reading along the past several comments about these people, and I’m going to have to pray about that..
Esther – you still there??
Are you in a place right now where you won’t feel isolated after leaving the church? Do you have friends who are still talking to you and supporting you during this time – I guess I am asking if there is anything you feel you need prayer about, anything coming up – can we do anything for you from here?
January 17th, 2009 at 9:00 am
Dear brothers and Sisters:
I want to say hello and thank you to each of you for your prayers and care!!!
I am praying for each of you at the Chesapeake Church. I am praying for the meeting on the 25th. I pray that the eyes of each heart would be enlightened to know the truth. The truth will set us free. I encourage each of you to prepare yourself before you go to the meeting. Pray, fill yourself with the Word, and wait on the Lord. He will give you discernment and strength.
Today I emailed “My Story of Hope” to each of the pastors in Chesapeake. I also sent it to many of the members. And finally, I sent it to the Apostolic Team. I hope it will serve those who read it.
God continues to bless and provide for my children and I. Here is just one of the amazing testimonies of God’s faithfulness to us. We were given a car – this was within days of praying that God would provide. I needed to give back the car I was driving to my husband. The car I was given broke down during the
holidays. Now a man of God that I do not even know is fixing it for just the cost of parts. Isn’t that amazing. I could tell numerous stories of God’s kindness to me. I love to tell the story of Jesus’ love for me. Remember that old song. It is so true in my heart.
Tonight I went to a ladies meeting with some very wonderful friends. We were assigned tables. Each table was beautifully decorated. They put a card on each table with a verse. We were told that they prayed over which scripture would be assigned to each table. Here was mine: ”Season of Refuge and Rest”
“He will cover you with His feathers; you will take refuge under His wings. His faithfulness will be a protective shield.” Isn’t God’s timing perfect and His counsel always in step. I am blown away by God’s love shown through moments like this.
Please continue to pray for my children and I. I need to have wisdom from the Lord as I continue on this journey. I know I have healing that needs to happen in my heart. I find myself grieving and weeping often. I do not think it is just over my
own pain, I believe it is the pain of all of the broken hearts combined. I cast my care on the Lord!
Love you all,
Esther
January 17th, 2009 at 9:07 am
Dear Esther,
I am rejoicing with you, dear sister, in God’s amazing goodness. Even among the brambles and thorns, His kindness and His mercies are freely given by His hand!
How good is God!!!!
Praying for you and with you today… and for all of those who have received your story of hope. May they be affected by it, may God use it to pierce their hearts, and cause repentance and change… for His glory and their/our good!
January 17th, 2009 at 11:54 am
Esther,
I’m sorry you are grieving and weeping. You have been through so much stress and change in your life. Humans are creatures of habit and your world has been turned upside down. I agree you are feeling the” the pain of other broken hearts.” Pain personally experienced gives us compassion towards understanding the pain of others and including others in our thoughts and prayers will help you heal. What a perfect verse that was for you; truly Gods word at this time. I noted it right by one of my favorites: “God is our refuge and strength, an ever-present help in trouble. Therefore we will not fear.” Your faith has been built by many years of trusting God in your difficult circumstances. I don’t doubt that as you take refuge under his wings you will also receive His wisdom and His healing for you each day.
January 17th, 2009 at 3:24 pm
Esther,
Thank you for sharing your story. I have experienced some of the things that you have shared and could relate with you on so many levels. I’ll be praying for all of you for the upcoming meeting.
January 17th, 2009 at 8:02 pm
Wow. It breaks my heart to hear those things about EH. He had a very positive influence in my life, and was much more of a friend than any other pastor I’ve had.
And Esther, it sounds like God is really bringing you to a better place in life. And I hope that your story will make waves in the church, and in the denomination as a whole.
The internet is such an amazing thing. These things have been going on for years, and until now, they’ve all been insulated incidents that the ministry could keep quiet. But now, with the internet it’s incredibly easy for people all around the world to put all of these stories together to make a larger narrative of the denomination as a whole.
To quote a film that I doubt many of you have seen…”You can’t stop the signal…”
January 17th, 2009 at 11:07 pm
I posted a link here from my facebook, just as I did for Noel’s story with the comment that I post here as acme. The only folks who have talked to me about it are non-SGM–except my cousin who attends the church in California formerly called Abundant Life and tells me she has her own story to tell. The ones who read are horrified and tell me how very sorry they are and how they wish they could have helped earlier. Not ONE of my SGM friends will talk to me about this stuff–when I left the church after 22 years, silence; when I tell my story, silence.
January 18th, 2009 at 2:48 am
BrenDerlin,
I’ve seen that movie, and the series – it’s good stuff. And I agree, it will be much, much harder for SGM (or any church) to sweep such things under the rug now that people who have been abused can find each other and share stories on the ‘net.
Acme – I’m am unsurprised by the silence from CLC folks, it is their MO to stick their heads in the sand about such things, but I am sorry that they have so completely ignored your story. That’s awful.
January 18th, 2009 at 8:58 am
” They believed that I was called to this marriage, and that suffering was something that we all face.”
so did you knee them in the groin and ask them how they were enjoying their suffering? it’s ok to do that to them because “suffering was something that we all face.”
January 18th, 2009 at 3:34 pm
Jim,
Shoot me an email when you get a minute.
I’d like to get a plan together…these stories are breaking me.
January 18th, 2009 at 4:37 pm
Haha, stunned, I’ve been saying that to my husband ever since I read Noel’s story! Honestly, if I’d been her or had been treated the way many of these women have been I think someone would have been hurting. But just before I did it I would say “in a moment you’re going to have an opportunity to practice forgiveness…”
January 18th, 2009 at 9:36 pm
“in a moment you’re going to have an opportunity to practice forgiveness…”
perfection. And if I recall from what they taught the boys when my son was in middle school, they should then turn and thank us for it.
Ah, good times, good memories…
January 19th, 2009 at 11:16 pm
Acme:
Is your friend going to publically share their story? I ask because I believe that Mark Mullery came from that same church. Here’s hoping that the fact he may have been in both places is only a coincidence.
January 20th, 2009 at 8:14 pm
A long post, but here is the email I sent way back in 2006 to the pastors covering my family. You’ll see many similarities with Esther’s story.
Saturday, August 5, 2006
To: Adam Malcolm and Grant Layman
As I was leaving the meeting yesterday in tears, I said, “My husband does not like me.” In meeting after meeting, he blames me for his problems, glares at me when he looks at me, and warns me that my time to be the focus of attention is coming.
He is angry. He wants his home back. He wants to be fed, housed, cared for. . . . He wants the reputation of a good Christian family man. He wants to continue his reign as the king of our house without cost, without penalty, without delay.
He says he wants to reconcile, but he still does not have a godly grief for the pain he has caused. He is angry that we fear him, that some are afraid to baby sit our children because of the way he bangs on the door, and finally that others do not see that DS and I deserve his wrath.
It is not just that he does not like me. He despises me. He despises our son.
Since we married in 1989, he has demeaned and belittled me. He doesn’t like that I don’t wear makeup and he wants me to dress sexier (after I lose weight, of course) He won’t let me go to a gym to get fit. He has regularly told me that I should be grateful that he wants me.
He does not pray with me–and says the reason is that I am not spiritual enough, because I do not speak in tongues. He tells me that I cannot hear from the Lord as well as he can and sometimes that I can’t hear from the Lord at all.
He says our home is not fit for guests–thus has kept our daily lives out of the church family’s eyes for years–but he won’t help to clean it. He fills the home with papers, magazines, trash, and more, but says it’s all our clutter. He has to have studio space in every home–and wanted to turn the garage into his private domain with his drums, his art, and a couch, but filled it to overflowing with trash and complained regularly that it hadn’t been cleaned out. He says we do not deserve his painting in the house because we’re not clean enough, so our walls are bare. He requires that we serve him, but does not serve us.
He has ruled our home in rage. We have all become adept at reading moods, trying to avoid his wrath, walking on eggshells, because we had come to believe his lies that we control his moods. He has punched holes in our walls and in doors. He screams at us, bangs on doors, threatens violence. Since DS was a little boy, he has demeaned, belittled, and yes, hurt him. He has hit him, kicked him, pushed him against walls and on the floor, choked him, and left marks on our son. He has tried to cast demons out of DS. He expects compliance and expertise, but won’t train and won’t encourage. He regularly lets DS know how disappointed he is that DS isn’t more like this boy or the other boy, as an athlete, as a student, and as a person. The few times he tried to play catch with DS, his constant barrage of criticism left DS in tears.
He does not provide for his family as you know, but the truth of the matter is that if he were kind and consistent and picked up roadkill for a living, I would not be sitting in the pastors’ offices. This failure to provide is due to his incredible self-focus. It really is all about him. I know that we are all selfish, but his selfishness is pathological. It’s consistently about his goals, his desires, his needs, his wants, his demands, his views, and his opinions.
He resents any time I spend with the kids. He resents any time he might need to spend with the kids, if it takes more work than he would like. He expects the family to be quiet as he talks and talks. He has grand plans for singing on stage at the main meeting–and talks about his musical and spiritual ambitions, but cannot encourage anyone else in the family to pursue their gifts. He cannot enjoy the beach because he is not tan enough and he’s sure that everyone is watching him. When we are at the beach or at a picnic, he goes off to do his own thing. He expected that we would all trot around watching him take pictures at the Grand Canyon all day–despite his dying sister’s battle with severely decreased lung function, DS’s very real fears, and DD’s physical needs as a tiny 5 year old.
I know you want my heart to remain soft towards my husband and want him to come home soon. You’ve warned me that I need to be open to this, that a long separation is a danger, and that divorce is forbidden. You’ve said that for now I’m covered because we’re still afraid, that the abuse is still recent enough to count. The abuse is as long term an issue as the failure to provide–and to my mind, far more serious.
Hear my heart. I am praying and working on not allowing bitterness to settle in my heart. I wish G well. I speak well of him to our children. I stay near so I can protect them, but I allow them to see him. I try to be fair to him. I have tried to work this out through the church and followed the Scripture’s admonition for dealing with someone in sin. I am trying to live at peace with all men, including G.
BUT, I think that a rush to reconciliation is far more dangerous. He cannot come home until he has produced fruit in keeping with repentance over a significant period of time. I cannot share a bed and a roof with this man who has perpetuated violence in our home, who has hurt me for 17 years and our son for more than 10 years, who has caused us all to doubt God’s goodness and sovereignty. I have walked too long in despair to ever go back to that bondage again.
Jesus comes to set the captives free. He condemns not only divorce but those who abuse their positions of authority, who call another “Fool” (Matthew 5:21-23), who cause little ones to stumble (Matthew 18:6-7). He hears the cries of the oppressed, of the widow and the orphan (Psalm 10:17-18). God’s chosen fast is loose the bonds of injustice (Isaiah 58).
Jesus is my husband now, the father to my children. It may be that someday G will truly repent and seek to start anew, with wooing and courtship and rededication. This will take a whole series of miracles in his heart and in mine.
He has broken our wedding vows, perhaps not with adultery (though with pornography), perhaps not with abandonment in that he still wants to come home, but with abandonment in that he has long-since abandoned his God-given responsibilities to his wife and children: to provide, to nurture and encourage, to lead by example, to train, to be diligent.
January 20th, 2009 at 9:14 pm
Acme,
Your story is so disturbing and saddening to me. I was particularly struck by this sentence: The abuse is as long term an issue as the failure to provide–and to my mind, far more serious. How incredibly sad and ridiculous that you even had to explain that to the pastors.
I’m disappointed that Mr. Layman was involved in your situation. For some reason I guess I had held out some hope that he was one of the more compassionate pastors at CLC.
January 20th, 2009 at 9:18 pm
Acme – wow, I feel for you… I am sorry about what you have had to go through.
January 20th, 2009 at 9:37 pm
The pastors explained that they had a “biblical” basis to discipline G for failing to provide for his family, but not for abusing us.
January 20th, 2009 at 10:31 pm
I remember from your story in the survivors forum that they only ever disciplined him for not having a job, but I didn’t realize that they explicitly told you that abuse was not a reason for church discipline. That’s astounding. Wouldn’t husbands love your wives as Christ loves the church be a biblical enough basis for discipline?
The more stories/details I hear, the more my response is just, Lord have mercy. I keep thinking of the parable of the sheep and the goats, and Jesus’ statement that “ what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.”(Mat. 25:45). Does SGM actually take these verses seriously? Because they are really on the wrong side, biblically, in overlooking the abuse of the innocent.
January 21st, 2009 at 4:30 am
acme-
I wish your story wasn’t true…even though I’ve heard it before, it still saddens me that you were abandoned and abused by your husband and then by your pastors….
January 21st, 2009 at 7:01 am
Acme,
I will never grow “comfortable” with hearing your story, nor the hundreds and hundreds of others who have had this same type of experience in their SGM church. The hurt and pain inflicted on you and other wives is abominable!
SGM… CJ Mahaney, and the rest of his posse should be completely and utterly ashamed! They should all be on their knees and their faces before our Holy God, weeping and repenting. Then they should fall on their knees before you and all of the others they have sinned against, weeping and repenting. (That would probably take the rest of their time here on this earth…)
It boggles my mind that they still refuse to admit, much less accept responsibility for their sin. Is that a sign of a leader? Is that the sign of God-honoring, God-seeking men?
Unbelievable!!
January 21st, 2009 at 9:09 am
Acme:
You have written to me before and have comforted and encouraged me with your kind and gracious words…. It is amazing to me that dear precious people (like you) who have had endured such horror and abuse can still find in their hearts to reach out to others…. it is truly the Lord who has kept your heart from becoming so embittered and cold towards anyone and everyone. I struggle with resentment and bitterness at times towards someone in my family and it is so hard to separate the right reasons to be upset and angry, to be able to forgive and to not to continue to allow that person to keep on doing what they are doing which is wrong…. Sometimets I just want to not reach out or care for anyone because of my own pain and hurts and defeatedness….
I do pray that the Lord will rescue you from this evil and that you can breathe clean air someday and hold your head up and not feel guilty or shame…
Is the situation resolved? Is your husband still out of the home? I just wondered how long these things can go on… without SGM people actually excommunicating you for your “rebellion” in not allowing him to come home… in my opinon, I’d be like “I really don’t give a flying flip about what you do or don’t do… but I am outta here and won’t be back so don’t bother me no more, no more…..”
January 21st, 2009 at 10:32 am
“Since DS was a little boy, he has demeaned, belittled, and yes, hurt him. He has hit him, kicked him, pushed him against walls and on the floor, choked him, and left marks on our son. He has tried to cast demons out of DS. He expects compliance and expertise, but won’t train and won’t encourage. He regularly lets DS know how disappointed he is that DS isn’t more like this boy or the other boy, as an athlete, as a student, and as a person. ”
Acme, my heart aches for your boy. This is so so so terribly wrong. Why has no “man” stood up to this overgrown bully? Ah, we have so much to learn as a church. God gave each and every one of us brains. He did NOT put into the bible how to wipe our butts, because he gave us brains to figure that out. He did NOT put into the bible that wives and kids need to get out of abusive relationships and that the church needs to step in and freaking man up, because He gave us brains for that.
No where in the bible does it say, “Don’t use your brains.” Instead it says to use the gifts God gave us. (There’s even a parable all about how sinful it is NOT to use the gifts and talents He gave us.) Please, SGM and SGMers, USE the brain God gave you!
Use it or lose it. (As some apparently already have.)
January 21st, 2009 at 10:45 am
“The pastors explained that they had a “biblical” basis to discipline G for failing to provide for his family, but not for abusing us.”
That bunch of lowly, $*^&%#$ $%*^&#@^& $%*^&#$es.
Go ahead and delete me, Jim. I will completely understand.
January 21st, 2009 at 11:11 am
Well, you see, if the husband “apologizes” for whatever he does to the wife or the children and she and they forgive him, then it’s not supposed to be mentioned again. She’s forgiven him. She’s not supposed to be afraid, because fear is sin. It’s not trusting God. When he’s back living in the home and is abusive, she’s supposed to call the police and let them handle it. Rather than live separate and be safe while waiting on God to change the situation, the wife is supposed to submit to the husband being back in the home and has to walk on eggshells. If there is then abuse, she is supposed to call the police.
So if she reports it and the husband is taken to jail, he’ll lose his job, and then the wife is in a financial crisis. What a solution.
Sigh.
January 21st, 2009 at 11:18 am
Stunned (love your posts, btw), why do you think G’s abuse was going to be addressed by fathers who regularly abuse their children (and instruct their wives and congregations to regularly abuse children) – although their abuse is under the guise of “discipline.” The over use of the “rod of correction” in beating toddlers for nothing more serious than being toddlers has seared these father’s hearts and minds.
If they had corrected G – they may have had to examine their own abusive practices.
These men, these bullies, sicken me. “Apostles” indeed.
January 21st, 2009 at 11:25 am
Remnant said, “Stunned (love your posts, btw), why do you think G’s abuse was going to be addressed by fathers who regularly abuse their children (and instruct their wives and congregations to regularly abuse children) – although their abuse is under the guise of “discipline.” The over use of the “rod of correction” in beating toddlers for nothing more serious than being toddlers has seared these father’s hearts and minds. ”
Remnant, I am sad to say, you are right. I hadn’t even thought that through, had I? I wonder how many years these men spent studying early childhood development in order to discern what is normal childhood behavior and what is rebellion and sin.
Funny, how somewhere along the line, we endowed these guys with the ability to know the difference, when they never earned it.
Stupid on my part.
January 21st, 2009 at 11:26 am
Ellie, you said a mouthful of truth there.
Wish it weren’t so, but it is.
January 21st, 2009 at 5:59 pm
I am in a far better place than I was back in 2006–I’m out of CLC (in part, because I was told that I would be under church discipline if I were to divorce G–which I haven’t gotten around to yet, because G does better when he’s not in the house and I’m doing better keeping safer boundaries), my boy has not been hospitalized in the last year and has better ways of managing conflict and stress, and honestly, these blogs (both survivor and refuge) have truly helped me work through so much of the kool-aid issues.
Finally, I want to thank my CLC friends D & D (who were our former CG leaders and pre-marital counselors) who were the first to HEAR me when I described what my home life was like and STOOD by me as I went through the process–appealing to the pastors about why they didn’t discipline G sooner, about why abuse wasn’t as bad as adultery or abandonment, and more.
January 22nd, 2009 at 12:22 pm
I was part of SG for years. Only pastors and apostolic team members can really be trusted, and everything must go through them for approval in order to be expressed, lived, etc. While they pride themselves in their humility, it appears to be a false humility. They consider one another better than themselves, indeed, but do they consider the people beneath them better than themselves? Pay attention at the conferences to see if this is the case, not during the meetings but outside of them. Also, pay attention to what happens when a member wants to go to Africa and care for HIV babies with some group other than SG. Members may not get pastoral support or even seek congregational support within the church, as some type of error could take place if they’re not overseeing it. This is pride. While they have opened up lines of communication outside of SG, members may only read/listen to those who have been approved. Otherwise, they may fail to discern, inspite of the theology they have learned. There is no opportunity for critical thinking. That must be done by leadership. Congregants listen to the results of critical thinking passed down to them. When or if congregants share a testimony, it must be reviewed, edited, and approved by leaders. Again there is a focus on “what if there is a doctrinal error” and there is no trust that the people will be able to sort through it or discern.
While the congregation is commended according to how easily they are led, when individuals present with any type of problem, the focus is immediately upon that person’s sin. Areas of excellence are usually ignored. I am still trying to overcome a hypercritical stance toward my children. I want to look for the good things and not just address their sin.
In that light, SG has very rich teaching. The people love one another and serve one another with joy. The worship is outstanding. The reformed doctrine is very strong. They should trust the Spirit to work in the lives of the people and allow Him to do some of that “correcting” they constantly try to do. The focus on that word “correction” fits in well with modern political correctness where people must watch every word they say that it not displease anyone. The beliefs are not politically correct, but the idea that my actions and communications need to be monitored so correction can immediately be applied at the very least takes joy and spontaneity from the process.
Must we be told how to use Facebook? Must we be chastised according to how we sleep or how we enjoy humor? Even in these trivial things, pride enters in. “My sleep is sanctified sleep.” “God is glorified daily in my facebook status.” “Isn’t that a glorious joke?” Someone mentioned micromanagement. Yes. That’s it. We who do not equal their wisdom need to learn from them how to use facebook and how to sleep. Those areas can certainly be mishandled. But can we not allow the Spirit to guide individuals in these things and stop turning it into some kind of “I honor God the most in every little thing” contest in which we also ironically declare our own humility?
January 22nd, 2009 at 1:46 pm
Acme, I’m glad to hear the good reports. but still sad thinking of what you have lived thru.
January 22nd, 2009 at 4:03 pm
Hi Seeking,
Welcome! Thanks for sharing. You make many good points. I can really relate to what you said about trying not to be hypercritical towards my children and their sin. Even after leaving PDI, it was some time before I had breakthrough in my parenting. The Lord spoke to my heart, “Stop focusing on their sin!” Simple, huh? Even so, it took some time to change focus and become more grace-oriented, but the fruit of it was wonderful!
Acme,
So glad to hear you and your son are doing better after those harrowing years. By the way, your gravatar pic is sweet!
January 27th, 2009 at 4:30 am
“We who do not equal their wisdom need to learn from them how to use facebook and how to sleep. Those areas can certainly be mishandled. But can we not allow the Spirit to guide individuals in these things and stop turning it into some kind of “I honor God the most in every little thing” contest in which we also ironically declare our own humility?”
SSSSSSssso, sooooooo true, Seeking!!! Great post! I too, could relate to the hypercriticalness part.
Welcome!
January 27th, 2009 at 4:58 am
Hi,
Acme, I totally understand your story because of my own. The reason they will not discipline a husband for abuse is because of their twisted idea of headship and authority. They believe that they are not allowed to overstep a husband’s headship in the home. This is not biblical.
Regarding Grant Layman - He is authoritative. He will counsel men to rule their homes. I saw him one time scream at a counselee when he didn’t like what she said, with a beat red face, and finger pointed in her face. He is not a pastor to talk to about this.
I would not even bother with couseling at CLC if you are in a bad marriage. The way they handle these situations is wrong and does not honor God – which by the way, God is the true head of any family, and leadership should flow down from God, and God does not treat women and children in this manner, and men should be an example of Christ. But CLC does not get that. Headship trumps being Christlike at CLC. This is truly truly sad.
I can only hope Esther’s confrontation and these public blogs help change that wrong thinking.