Poor Gene.
He drew the short straw and has to give the appearance of oversight to Brent. Brent’s doing what he wants, and Gene is looking really impotent.
Then he tries to sell a bag a crap to some sharp people in Chesapeake. They clearly aren’t buying.
Chesapeake can expect a visit from a bigger dog very soon. Watch and see, folks…
Gene, maybe being a false apostle isn’t all you thought it would be.
Straw men never make it through a storm. Now you need to decide Who is causing the wind to blow.
December 24th, 2008 at 12:23 am
So… what’s going on in Virginia at the Chesapeake SGM church?
Anyone with info want to share?
December 24th, 2008 at 2:13 pm
What does Brent have to do with Chesapeake…?
December 24th, 2008 at 7:24 pm
Ellie-
They are both in Gene’s sphere of oversight.
December 24th, 2008 at 8:29 pm
Ok…..
so, Gene had to get Brent to go along with something, and it’s not working, so Gene had some splaining to do for some reason at Chesapeake, but it’s not going over too well, so now somebody higher up is going to have to go to Chesapeake to SGMize the situation?
December 24th, 2008 at 9:10 pm
Merry Christmas Refuge!
December 28th, 2008 at 1:51 pm
who in the world is Gene Emerson??
It feels GREAT to be “out of the SGM loop” I must say!
December 29th, 2008 at 3:24 pm
Juli:
gene emerson is the senior pastor of the SGM church in Richmond Va and before that I believe he was the original SP in Franklin west virginia.
December 29th, 2008 at 9:22 pm
and before that gene emerson attended CLC.
December 29th, 2008 at 9:39 pm
And now he’s an “apostle”…
December 29th, 2008 at 9:48 pm
I guess the fact that he has moved up the ladder within SGM is just another piece of evidence supporting other posts here that those who learn to play within the system at SGM and do not rock the boat are rewarded.
December 30th, 2008 at 12:53 am
hey Jim, did you get my private email to you the other day about that blog? I didn’t want to post it here just yet..
December 30th, 2008 at 8:55 am
Um….forget it getting my worlds mixed up. I read Gene Emerson and read Gene Emersion and thought it was a term I hadn’t known before, googled it and got…did you mean Gene Emerson and *then* some interesting information about gene expression. Gene Emersion apparently is not something I missed, thankfully.
December 30th, 2008 at 8:59 am
Juli-I did.
With my current work hours, I don’t even have time to look at it.
The floor is yours
December 30th, 2008 at 1:26 pm
Jim, I am going to wait to share it – cause once I do it will be gone off the internet as you and I both know. I also want you to have a chance to read it when you have time. No rush. Just an interesting blog. And I’ve already copied most of it in case it did get taken down.
December 30th, 2008 at 4:05 pm
Juli,
Please copy it all. It might be worth it in the future. (If it’s even there now.)
S
January 2nd, 2009 at 12:48 am
Hello all!! This is my first post! I am a member Sovereign Grace in Chesapeake, yet I haven’t been in months. I am visiting other Churches. Do you know when Brent is coming? Would love to be there THAT Sunday. I will tell my story later…….
January 2nd, 2009 at 11:27 am
Hi Bucky,
Welcome to sgmrefuge. I hope this is a good place for you and brings you healing or clarity or whatever it is you could need us for.
It’s been quiet around here for a while because a lot of the regular posters have been spending quite a bit of time over at sgmsurvivors.com, specifically at http://tinyurl.com/MarkMullery. Come on over if you’d like.
Stunned
but starting to see things a bit more clearly now
January 2nd, 2009 at 12:30 pm
Welcome Bucky!
I doubt that Brent will be the one to try and do what Gene couldn’t do @ Chesapeake.
I’m thinking Harvey, but who knows…
January 2nd, 2009 at 2:26 pm
Thanks for the welcome! Believe me, I spent numerous hours on “survivors”. Thats how I found “refuge”. Jim, you are right-on about the “sharp” people in Chesapeake. I will tell more after the bag of crap hits the fan! What I plainly do not understand is: When the group of Pastors were brought “observations” , a letter went out stating “many of the “accusations” are false”. Who said they were being accused? I also know the feeling of what many have said about: bringing the observation, then it turns on you like you are the problem!! Wow! More to come……………
January 2nd, 2009 at 3:11 pm
Bucky,
I know the whole Chesapeake story, but am not at liberty to share it.
If you can, and would like to, please send me a post via email, and I’ll make it a post.
I’ve had to be very vague, and would love to be able to fill in some blanks.
From my perspective, this story is big, good news.
jim@sgmrefuge.com
January 2nd, 2009 at 4:09 pm
Hi Jim – I ususally post over at survivors (not enough hours in the day to post everywhere!) but I do keep up with your blog – good work. Noel’s story is socking and sad, but doesn’t suprise me at all.
As an FYI, I used to be a member of the church formerly know as Southside. I hope to find out what happened or is happening one of these days. I still know people who are members. Of course, they haven’t spoken to me since I left. I know ALOT about the early history, but not much since shank “left”. My guess is that shank sure set the sgm fondation in the church formerly know as southside.
Jim – keep up the good work!
January 2nd, 2009 at 4:55 pm
Thanks Freedom!
January 2nd, 2009 at 5:03 pm
Jim, things are bubbling under the surface, about the erupt all over.
Wheat and tares are being divided. God is calling His people out of SGM, since SGM will not repent and let His people go. (in terms of the bondage and control, thye are exactly like Egypt and Pharoah!)
We can’t worship God or serve God freely in an SGM church because of the control and bondage. So how is that different from Egypt?
Keep praying brother. Keep praying.
ps how is PK??
January 2nd, 2009 at 6:42 pm
I wish I knew…
January 2nd, 2009 at 7:46 pm
Welcome, Bucky! Looking forward to your story.
Jim, it would be WONDERFUL to hear of big, good news coming out of any SGM church. I’ll pray along those lines. And a big hello and hug to Carole!
PK and PD, I hope you are alright. We’ll be praying.
January 2nd, 2009 at 10:02 pm
hey Jim, I’m intrigued by the process of SGM replacing old pastors (old physcially and spiritually old, more mature) with young, inexperienced and immature in the Lord men. This pattern disturbs me and is unbiblical.
two things I wanted to show you, first is a paper about the ordination of an SGM pastor – not sure who this guy is who was ordained, but the read is interesting because it is how SGM ordains someone..the link is here: http://www.crosswaycc.net/reso.....Pastor.pdf
I have it copied in case someone takes it down. It is a church in Oregon and Shank is West Coast apostle. (I am assuming the apostle they are referring to is Steve Shank of course.)
the other blog I will link to later..
also on this website is the history of how this same church came to be adopted into SGM – intersting in that SGM didn’t want to oversee the planting process (how could they since they colonize and not evangelize??) but they said they would be willing to adopt them in, in a few years if all goes well.. see this link: http://www.clfroseburg.com/leaders-history.html
I just irks me because this is again going on where I live. There is a pastor in a nearby town who wants to start a church, and be part of SGM- only SGM of course won’t adopt them in right now, I know they will partner him with my former pastor since he is the closest SGM pastor, and then once the church is up and running, adopt them in and run the show..It just irks me. They want to “build relationship” first and “test” this guy’s willingness to submit to them.
By then my former pastor will have retired and the new up and coming pastor who is currently at Pastor’s College will take over my former church and it is all downhill from there, since the new pastor is under the thumb of the regional apostle since the regional apostle was is his Sr Pastor
(can I give his name so this guy might find out about things if he googles his name? Maybe he will figure out what he ISN’T being told by SGM about the church he is coming to take over!) He will relocate to this small town and begin being a “pastor in training” when he graduates in May this year. If you look on SGM websites all over the country, the last three years of PC grads are (almost) all on staff somewhere as pastors in training or admin pastors, youth pastors, etc.
I am concerned for these young men. Why do you think they replace qualified, godly pastors with these young pride-prone boys? (I say pride-prone because the Bible said it first) I think it is because they can control and manipulate them easier.
January 2nd, 2009 at 10:03 pm
Jim, you have not heard from PK?
did they figure out who he was and he decided to lay low?
January 3rd, 2009 at 2:01 am
Oversight as defined by Gene and Brent or SG is not what I would define as oversight; it is more like overlook with the apperance of oversight. I will only believe that accountability and good to come from this when I see it. I am confident of one thing, one day they will both be held accountable whether here or in front of a Just God who is not impressed with titles or positions.
January 3rd, 2009 at 1:58 pm
beauty from ashes, I recognize your name, have you posted before a long time ago?? hello, either way!
January 3rd, 2009 at 2:09 pm
Juli-
I’m sorry-I’m not ignoring you. I just can’t give you any good answers right now.
January 3rd, 2009 at 5:24 pm
This is the first time I have participated in a blog, but here I go. I have felt extremely sick over the past week with a MAJOR INCIDENT at the Chesapeake Church, and from incidents of abuse I have witnessed (and have been part of) for years, I refuse to remain quiet. I am coming out of the closet! AND HAVE A WORD FOR THE SGC LEADERSHIP: MANY WILL FOLLOW!
I was invited to what was to be a family meeting, last Saturday. To our surprise (my wife and me), Gene Emerson was there. Oh no, we thought, another pastor leaving. This wasn’t the case. Instead, the meeting was officiated by Gene, who proceeded to drop a bag of crap onto members of the church. The meeting, from start to finish, was knee deep in it, and it was obvious. So much for Godly men in leadership!
I will not go into any more detail, but needless to say, this one is simmering and about to explode!
I write this with humiity and with my letter of resignation of membership tightly in hand.
January 3rd, 2009 at 5:44 pm
Long Sufferer,
Welcome! Thank you for your post.
I know what I think is the whole story, but do not have permission to publish it.
I’m hearing from people in Chesapeake. You are not alone.
January 3rd, 2009 at 10:09 pm
Dear Long Sufferer…You are not alone. I would love to give the whole bag of crap to be published here! I’m waiting to see what happens first. I attend SGC in Chesapeake too. You may want to go to the other website http://www.sgmsurviviors.com. SGM is a “cookie cutter” church in my opinion. What seems to go on in one, goes on in another! I am sick of taking what is an “observation” and it is labeled an accusation!!! Get real people….wake up, smell the deception!!!! It is always “your heart” thats in the wrong place, for God’s sake, where is theirs??????? Ok, so we get the letter from the “3″ observers, then one from the Senior pastor, why can’t we get the list of the “accusations”? HA HA HA HA HA………I have it!!!!! So I know what’s going on so why doesn’t anybody else?????? So why are the so called accusers holding back?? Every member should know………….
January 3rd, 2009 at 10:16 pm
Juli-I have only posted a few times. Sadly, I have a story too but too afraid to share, but I am becoming less afraid.
I read a bedtime story tonight to my little one. Here is what I read “Jesus saw men selling cattle and sheep and doves. Jesus saw other greedy men sitting at tables trading money. Seeing all this made Jesus angry. the temple was supposed to be a holy place. This was the place where blood sacrifices for sin were made. Instead, the temple had become a wicked place. People came to look important and to put lots of money in their own pockets. People were sinning instead of coming to be forgiven. What Jesus saw made him so angry that…He did something about it.”
I haven’t been to Pastor’s college but what I do know of SG doesn’t make Jesus happy.
January 3rd, 2009 at 10:43 pm
beauty from ashes,
welcome!!
Doncha just LOVE Jesus??
I love my Big Brother. I wanna be just like Him someday.
January 3rd, 2009 at 10:48 pm
welcome Bucky, and Long Sufferer, and good to see you over here at the Refuge, Freedom!
January 3rd, 2009 at 11:10 pm
Bucky, Long Sufferer, good to have you both here..
can I just tell you, without knowing how big the church you attend is, that it would have made me feel so much better to know that even ONE person in my church saw what I saw right before I left? ..and there are at least TWO of you (and according to Jim, many more in your church who are upset, angry, confused, etc)
I will be praying for the children of God in your church..that He will reveal, that He will give boldness, courage, strength…please utilize the fellowship, prayer support, and love that you will find on this site as you go through this difficult time.
We’re here for you, but more importantly, please know that the Lord is in your midst, and He has seen it all. If the lampstand is about to be removed, you will be called out first. Rest assured.
January 3rd, 2009 at 11:16 pm
beauty from ashes, all in good time…don’t rush to speak..resting in the quietness of His strength is good for us, especially after being through what many have been through. If you ever want to email privately, my email address is libertyinchristATliveDOTcom.
Praying for the fear to go away and peace to reign in your heart…
January 3rd, 2009 at 11:30 pm
Juli,
It’s a large crowd. They are angry. They don’t like being lied to. They are tired of the manipulation.
There is no way the leadership can get out of the ditch aside from humble repentance. We’ve seen how often that happens.
This is going to blow up in SGM’s face. When it does, they will blame others when they need to look no farther that their mirror.
January 4th, 2009 at 1:18 pm
Hello all
The past several days for Noel and I have been very draining, but in a fantastic way, like draining a old scum pond in preparation for the coming “cleaning storm”.
Those of you who have a story. YOU ARE NOT ALONE!
Peace comes in waves as darkness is removed.
January 4th, 2009 at 2:18 pm
Grizzly, I remember reading a post on survivors where Noel said something about the scar being healthy now..and you saying this about a preperation for a “cleaning storm” I agree with.
I just wanted to tell you that your story is doing more than you might have expected – I know you might think that the Lord will (and I think He will too) give boldness to those with similar stories of abuse and cover up and they will finally break the silence and speak…but can I just tell you know your story has been used of the Lord for ME personally?
I have not experienced what you have, there is no cover up, etc. to that extent, mine is basically your “run of the mill” SGM church experience. But somehow the Lord has used your story and boldness He gave you both to give ME even more boldness and courage, and hope, and the heart to press on in ACTION…to not be so lukewarm in my response to all this, that the time has come for action, whatever that may be. So I am in prayer that He will lead me now…I have been in a holding pattern for months with things and now is the time for change, I know it. It doesn’t mean I am not healed, but I know the deeper work is about to begin, and the OUTPOURING and result of the healing He has brought me will be evident to everyone around.
And I know that it is a result of his first working in you and Noel. So have hope that the Lord will use your story in many more ways that you imagined…even to those with completely different backgrounds, histories, hurts, etc…I love the way the Spirit works – applying His tough uniquely and powerfully all because of a simple act of faith and obedience by one person (Noel). oh may the Lord richly bless your family as a result of your obedience and faith! We love you!
January 4th, 2009 at 2:34 pm
Jim, whatever is going on at the Chessie Church, you are right in that true repentance is the only remedy..many have been praying for the Lord to reveal the truth, it seems He is doing so. Praise the Lord for His faithfulness!
Not only in that church, but MANY other churches as well, as you know for yourself.
January 4th, 2009 at 2:38 pm
Grizzly,
Welcome to the refuge!
I like this-
“Peace comes in waves as darkness is removed.”
Thank you so much for taking a stand against the darkness!
May His Grace and Peace rest on your family.
January 6th, 2009 at 10:56 pm
I am a member of SGC of Chesapeake, and I must have 30 recent letters about all the mudslinging going on in Chesapeake. It looks to me that many people have taken their eyes off a risen Christ and his message and are consumed with the discord, and rumors within the church. One would be better served keeping their focus on Christ and his gospel message.
January 6th, 2009 at 11:06 pm
I assume you are talking about SGM leadership’s eyes… right???
January 6th, 2009 at 11:14 pm
Hi Stein Meistrbrew, I too am a member of SGC in Ches. My eyes are on Christ and Christ alone but you must also have trust in the Pastors preaching the message. I assume you will be staying. I am leaving. The past year for me has been very trying to say the least. You obviously “fit” the SG mold. I do not and do not care to. My eyes have been open, praise God! I am tired of feeling controlled and manipulated. I have met with a Pastor or two, yet when I have brought an “observation” it is always my fault and “Where is MY heart”. They turn it all back on the ones that approach them. No humilty at all. I was sick to find out care group leaders tell ALL to the Pastors. I thought care group was a “safe” place. Have you seen the letter presented to the Pastors? I have and I believe it is all true. Funny we get a letter from D.D. and then one from K.B. so most have been hanging because they do not know what is going on. I would hate to think my marriage was on the rocks and I got THAT KIND OF COUNCILING!!!!!!! This is all for now, I’m tired………….
January 6th, 2009 at 11:50 pm
Modus Operandi.
Never changes.
Same story, different city. One is the cover-up of sexual crime against a baby, and another is an entire church in a massive upheaval. They’re all symptoms of the same sickness.
THE SYSTEM IS BROKEN, SGM!!!
OPEN YOUR EYES!
January 6th, 2009 at 11:56 pm
PS. i like the feature to edit a comment.
January 7th, 2009 at 12:10 am
Stein,
Is it possible that one can keep his focus on Christ and His gospel and still love His Bride? I personally find it impossible separate the two.
Where is your Savior? Must you place your head in the sand to behold Him?
January 7th, 2009 at 12:48 am
Carol – good point. They wouldn’t be in the mess they appear to be in if that was the case…..
January 7th, 2009 at 1:54 am
Jim, exactly.
Bucky, I am praying for you and your family if you have any there at the church with you. I have no clue what is going on, don’t want to know honestly, nor does it matter if I know- I’m simply grieved that the Lord is not being exalted, and His children are fighting again. James said so clearly why this happens: it is because of our own lusts (desires)
We certainly should be thankful our Father in heaven has much grace, rich in mercy, slow to anger, and is long-suffering.
What’s that ol’ joke or sign about God watching us kids fighting from heaven?
“Don’t make me come down there!” – God.
Maranatha! Come quickly, Lord.
January 7th, 2009 at 1:54 am
Since when did covering up sin and lies equate with keeping your eyes on Jesus?
And since when did uncovering pastoral abuse equate with NOT keeping your eyes on Jesus?
Didn’t some of the greatest cleansings and upheavels of history come from men and women who were keeping their eyes on Jesus?
Me thinks someone does not want others to look behind the curtain and see that the Great Wizard of Oz is just a scared little man.
January 7th, 2009 at 2:02 am
“Don’t make me come down there!” – God. ”
Juli, He already did. PRAISE GOD!
Long Sufferer and beautyfromashes, welcome here. I’m sorry to hear you are going through such harsh times. We have each been in similar places. We want you to know you are not alone. I hope the gettin’ out is not as painful as it may be. Actually, what I hope most of all is change, healing and SGM growing a tender heart toward the Lord, His people and the lost.
Stunned
but sorta hopeful right now
January 7th, 2009 at 8:27 am
What Stunned said.
January 7th, 2009 at 8:31 am
Stein,
The recent din of proverbial crickets chirping was less damning than your comments.
And do tell me, what is your opinion of pastors covering up a sexual assault upon a 3 year old baby? (Note; I would be astonished if he actually answers my question.)
Oh, yes, but I do like your witty screen name.
January 7th, 2009 at 9:10 am
Occasionally in comments and frequently via email, people ask about PK.
PK is taking a sabbatical from the blogs. He might not be checking his @refuge email.
I think it’s a good thing-I recommend it!
January 7th, 2009 at 9:22 am
Grizzly,
“Peace comes in waves as darkness is removed”
That is true and beautiful! That should be a quote at the top of the page! Love It!
January 7th, 2009 at 10:05 am
OK, DB, I’m confused. What is clever about that name? (No insult intended to that individual but I figure I am probably missing some literary reference- or cultural or theological reference and just want to figure it out. I am definitely not the brightest bulb in the chandelier.)
January 7th, 2009 at 11:35 am
Stein =German stoneware designed to hold beer and keep it cold.
Meisterbrew = Meister=master, brew is English.
I’m assuming your Stein doesn’t possess a nice frothy head seeing your Dear Leader rewards baldness. But we have a master brewer in our midst.
January 7th, 2009 at 12:41 pm
Heee, thanks. I had thought there was more to it that I wasn’t catching on to! (I’m an idiot some days.)
January 8th, 2009 at 8:43 am
The only ones who have taken their eyes off of the risen Christ is the pastors and so-called godly-leaders of SGM. The sheep whose eyes have strayed from our Lord and Saviour, have only done so due to poor shepherding. That burden will be placed solely on their shoulders, and if man’s accountability never comes, we may rest assured that God’s will.
The discord sewn in the Ches. Church was clearly perpetrated by Gene Emerson and the pastors, as they fumbled their way through this mess. We knew nothing going into a “Family Meeting.” We know nothing after the “Family Meeting.” By the way, how were families chosen for this “Family Meeting?” Was it only those, as Gene stated at the meeting, who will be “Allies” against the three perpetrators who have “Vindictive attitudes?”…Interesting use of words: Allies and Vindictive! (These indicate that there are enemies and they are out for blood). I know two of these familes very well, and they have been in the church (actually all 3) for 10 years plus, and all with impeccable character. I can’t say the same for the men involved! (especially now, after the performance they put on at that meeting).
January 8th, 2009 at 8:53 am
Long,
My understanding is that is was sort of an “invitation only” meeting. I’ve heard that they invited people who had served, or were serving in some type of leadership role.
From what I’ve heard from multiple sources, your observations are correct. I’ve also heard that this will blow up in their face, as many at the meeting were not interested in becoming Gene’s ally.
Would someone please post the story here?
January 8th, 2009 at 12:11 pm
yes, will someone please tell the truth? I know how the pastors preface such meetings, with so many noble commands not to speculate, gossip, etc…and they practically beg you to support them, they are so dependent on your defending them. But honestly, it is not noble and certainly not biblical masculinity, to defend these corrupt men while concealing the truth, thereby allowing the weak and the vicitmized (and usually slandered) to bear the burden of their leaders’ sins alone as scapegoats.
Yes, I have been to several ‘family meetings’ (always arriving after many hours of dread and expecting impending doom) and I wish I could go back and be bold and ask the questions I really wanted to, the questions that needed to be asked. That is accountability! If accountability is so important, why do the pastors keep trying to dodge it?
January 8th, 2009 at 2:13 pm
Oh good grief.
If there was a meeting, and good things were said by good men, (which is what any SGM apostle is and what he would, therefore, say, since he is God’s representative to his people, right, and always says good things?) what is the problem with saying it publicly?
Things done in the darkness and secrecy are rarely rarely RARELY ever good unless they involve surprise birthday parties. Whenever you are called into a private meeting, and a pastor starts the meeting telling you that because you are so special and so important to the church that you are here at this talking points butt-covering family meeting, but that you CANNOT tell anyone what is said there, your response should be to gather your stuff, quickly, and run out the back door, slam it behind you and find one of the many great churches around you at which to worship from that time forward.
If they do this to Brother Soandso and Sister Whatshername, I guarantee you, from personal experience, that it will be you pretty soon. I GUARANTEE YOU that you are next.
This mentality (and it is not exclusive to SGM) is this: I am the boss around here. You are the minions. If this godly ediface needs to make a human sacrifice to continue to make me look good, make me look like i am not a sinner, you can make DANG sure it is not going to be me. It is going to be one of you.
Just say it already. Drag it in the light. Don’t be so afraid. When Jesus told us to stand up for the least among us, you really think he was talking about the reputation of child abusers? About pastors that want to cover up for child abuse in their congregation rather than standing up for the children Jesus insisted be brought to him for his special touch?
HURL, HURL and double puke. WAKE UP!
January 8th, 2009 at 2:34 pm
FYI–Chesapeake Church is planning a Very Important Family Meeting on January 25th.
January 8th, 2009 at 2:48 pm
I wonder which bouncer… errr… big dog… errrrr… I mean LEADERSHIP TEAM MEMBER they are going to send Chesapeake’s way now… Since Gene’s visit wasn’t effective, I guess they have to call in some bigger guns…
Hold fast, Chesapeake!! You have many, many, MANY folks praying for you!
January 8th, 2009 at 2:52 pm
Well, at least we can be sure that he’ll be bald.
January 8th, 2009 at 3:03 pm
I just want to encourage those 3 families at the Chesapeake church. I know two of the families personally and they are godly, god-fearing folks. They must be going through some serious bullying right now.
Hold strong, guys! The truth needs to come out and if that means “ruining the reputation” of the church, then so be it. I think God is big enough to take care of his bride, even if she has huge stains on her dress and is covered in all manner of ugliness. HE is what makes the Church beautiful and it is by HIS blood that we are made clean, not by our own efforts to maintain our outward appearance of beauty and cleanliness. The longer we try to remain in control and deny our need for healing within the Church, the longer it is going to take to get SGM back on the right track.
These stories need come out! Let the authorities know what is happening, please! Speak out. We all care about SGM, we want healing and we want reconciliation. It just isn’t going to happen as long as this remains in the dark.
If SGM is a body that is sick and needs healing, the only way for fixing is to allow the pain of surgery to take place. If we try to fix it ourselves and put band-aids on things that need surgery, it’s going to get really, really ugly eventually. Wounds fester in the dark. Doing things in secret and behind closed doors is not the way to deal with this sort of thing.
January 8th, 2009 at 3:03 pm
LOL!!
Maybe that was Gene’s problem as to why he was so ineffective during his Chesapeake visit… he isn’t bald (at least in the picture I saw, although the combover is kinda cute) and therefore doesn’t have that “special anointing” the others do. Gene, maybe you should just pull a Josh and shave it off… (I guess they are going for some kind of reverse Samson effect… that seems to be working out for ‘em real well… )
January 8th, 2009 at 3:08 pm
let the light shine in!-
Well said!
Welcome!
January 8th, 2009 at 3:12 pm
My last comment was pretty snarky… especially in light of the seriousness of the accounts we are hearing about… not a good time for sarcasm…
January 8th, 2009 at 3:19 pm
Could someone at least address this question: is this another child abuse case? If so, has/have the perpetrator(s) been reported to the state authorities?
Whenever we try to protect the Bride, we are denying the power of the Gospel. Jesus came for sinners. If we say we have no sin, we make God out to be a liar, and the TRUTH IS NOT IN US.
If you are under some freaking delusion that the world does not know the dirty laundry of the church, and laughs at our stupid attempts to hush it up, you are crazy and juvenile.
The world knows, they see, they talk. When they see a body repent, minister to the wounded, the poor, the weak…when they see truth and courage, and stands taken for true righteousness, which is dependance on the completed work of Christ ALONE, then they will take another look at the Gospel. When they see the wagons gather around the least of these my brethren, and they see us “shoot” the wolves in the camp, then they say, ‘Hey, take a look at this! They love the little guy.”
When they see us cover-up, shush, pay-off, CYA, whisper in secret, have little family meetings where we rah-rah-rah-go team each other, then circle the wagons and shoot the bleeding sheep, blah, blah, blah, they say, “Told you so. A bunch of d****d hypocrites. I knew it.”
The truth will set you free. Free. Don’t you long for it?
January 8th, 2009 at 3:26 pm
RT-nothing close to child abuse. It’s the usual pastoral CYA and scorched earth…
What’s cool about this attempt is that it seems like it might not fly.
January 8th, 2009 at 3:33 pm
So someone in the church is accused of talking bad about the church and/or pastor(s) and napalm is being lobbed to silence them?
January 8th, 2009 at 3:40 pm
I personally know of no child abuse cases in the Ches church, but that’s not to say it hasn’t happened in the past. I DO know of at least one case of sexual abuse with young adults that has been “covered up” – meaning the girl was encouraged to keep quiet. Keep quiet and allow the guy to continue on his happy way while she suffers in silence….
January 8th, 2009 at 3:40 pm
if there are three perpetrators or accusers of leadership (however you view it), then they did follow Biblical model, not taking an accusation against an elder without two or three witnesses, so that is good.
I went to a church service last night where the elders and the pastor sat on stage and gave people the opportunity to ask questions. After I picked my jaw up off the ground, I wanted to cry. These men had no fear of man. They didn’t fear being controlled BY the Body, they were truly serving it, and had just shared the vision for the coming year, and were opening it up for questions and dsicussions, something they plan to do every other month from now on.
I was impressed. Talk about REAL servant leadership.
January 8th, 2009 at 3:42 pm
I’m changing my label on this and other blogs to “Collateral Damage” (from SGMFlorida). A pastor once answered an accusation about harming several families in our SGM church because of a bone-headed decision that was made, by saying that these families were “Collateral Damage”. He said, the decision that was made served the greater good (SGM). I’m still amazed at that statement.
January 8th, 2009 at 3:47 pm
Juli!!
What excellent testimony! Welcome to freedom!
January 8th, 2009 at 3:51 pm
SGMFla…
Unreal. Anyone I know
As you may know, Florida’s my turf…
January 8th, 2009 at 3:53 pm
SGM Fla..
I can’t say anymore than I’ve said about Chesapeake, although I’ve heard from so many people, nothing I say could be traced back to them.
Still, no one has given me permission to post the story.
I really wish someone would fill in the blanks….
Like the men of SGM who I am addressing…
Fearing man above God-very sad. SGM is counting on this fear to keep everything hunky dory.
January 8th, 2009 at 3:53 pm
Collateral,
That mentality is rampant in strong authoritarian situations, Hitler too had those ideas, as did Alexander the Great, Osama bin Laden, Hannibal, and many other military leaders in history. Interestingly, the common denominator is a personal goal of the leader, a big picture if you will, coupled with a manipulation of the people under them to bring it to realization. But actually it is the personal desires of these leaders that made them obsessive in meeting their own needs/lusts to the point of driving the people under them to die in gas chambers, and take elephants across the alps in the middle of winter…insanity, as a result of obsession with their own insecurities and needs. Hannibal was exacting revenge on behalf of his father, and Hitler, well good grief the guy only had one scrotum, (really, he did) so that must have made for some major insecurities in his life..strong personal needs driving common men to do extraordinarily manipulative things..
disclaimer: please don’t think I am comparing the morality of SGM leadership to the heinous crimes of Hitler or Bin Laden and implying SGM is just as evil, I am only comparing their internal lusts and manipulation of the people under them as a result thereof (with obvious varying degrees of manipulation of course, which is the distinguishing factor)
January 8th, 2009 at 3:56 pm
ReformedTeacher,
yeah, it was awesome. Nice to see some Biblical truths put into action for a change, things that are hard for me to grasp outside of seeing them modeled. Servant leadership has always been one of those things.
I spoke with one of the elders afterwards (gasp!) and told him what a blessing it was, and how that never would have happened at the church I just let – after 3 years there I wasn’t even sure WHO the elders even were, much less able to talk to them. His jaw dropped on the floor, he was truly shocked. His thinking was ‘well, this is so common sense to do ti this way” but it isn’t – not to everyone.
January 8th, 2009 at 4:12 pm
Juli–so true. When I was ‘let out of the box’ I felt like the colors in my new church were almost ultra-saturated…the sounds seemed louder, the light brighter. I realized that what I had thought was real and true was shadow and grey. I felt discombobulated and almost confused by freedom–the laws were gone. The lines between certain groups (male/female, leader/bottom feeder) were virtually non-existent.
Good for you, my dear sister!
January 8th, 2009 at 4:14 pm
Collateral,
We have heard that same exact thing! We lived it! We are the collateral damage.
Thanks, Shank. I love being your collateral damage.
January 8th, 2009 at 4:35 pm
RT was discombobulated
January 8th, 2009 at 4:38 pm
OUCH!! That musta hurt! You okay RT?
January 8th, 2009 at 4:58 pm
“A pastor once answered an accusation about harming several families in our SGM church because of a bone-headed decision that was made, by saying that these families were “Collateral Damage”. He said, the decision that was made served the greater good (SGM). I’m still amazed at that statement.”
“Collateral” and “This is” – I’m so sorry. NOT what Jesus would do AT ALL.
January 8th, 2009 at 5:04 pm
Well, the same time I got discombobulated, I was also free to sip wine. It was a good trade-off. Didn’t hurt half as much as those four hour fast and testimony meetings in the LDS church.
January 8th, 2009 at 5:39 pm
Juli, sounds like you mighta found a keeper!
January 8th, 2009 at 6:31 pm
Wow what a firestorm. To answer your question DB, and like many of us at SGC Chesapeake, some of us like to brew and drink beer. We’re not a bunch of drunkards, we just appreciate good Godly flavor, hence the name.
As far as a pastor covering up sex crimes, of coarse they need to be removed from ministry and prosecuted. I’m not sure what church that happened at. Not even close to what happened in Chesapeake.
After meeting with the pastors of Chesapeake I saw genuine repentance, and humility, with a sincere desire of reconciliation. Please don’t cast SGC Chesapeake into the ‘lake of fire’ just yet.
January 8th, 2009 at 6:36 pm
Hey Stein,
So, you’re a “brew-it-yourselfer”, huh? Sounds like a lot of fun… from start to finish…
January 8th, 2009 at 7:08 pm
Stein,
No one is throwing your SGC into any lake.
Are the details of my original post correct? Were you at the meeting with Gene?
January 8th, 2009 at 7:40 pm
FYI – it was the Farifax church, CJ knew about the coverup. Jim has graciously posted a link to the story on his blog’s main page – here’s the link again:
http://www.sgmsurvivors.com/?p=276
If what is happening down at SGC Chesapeake is not a big deal, why don’t do you tell us your version of the story?
Anyone out there want to share? I have a feeling it is a big deal to others who were harmed.
January 8th, 2009 at 8:11 pm
Herr Meisterbrew,
Do you recall the scene in Robin Hood, Prince of Theives in which Friar Tuck is teaching someone how to brew beer saying God has given us liquid bread or some such thing, it cracked me up.
I never tried to brew my own, we’re beer snobs, however, and enjoy everything from Lindermans to Hockershur to some BC microbrews, even a nice crisp Italian ale at Christmas Eve when we had our seven fishes. Although I must confess I prefer Chianti (sp) with seafood.
January 8th, 2009 at 8:23 pm
Rt, that song “I can see clearly now the rain is gone” is always going through my mind these days.
I went to see a professional Christian (nouthetic) counselor today. (Don’t tell SGM!) He said something very interesting. He said that groups that are legalistic and controlling often are spiritually immature, hence all the rules, being under the law, etc. Spiritual infants in a sense is what I gathered. And those who are in the “grace” movement, the other extreme, can abuse grace and are antinomian (against the law)..the ironiy is that these controlling groups THINK they are more spiritual and mature, but in reality they are actually immature, hence their self=preceived need for all the legalism.
He said “It takes a very spiritually mature believer to actually walk in Biblical grace, not abusing it, still aware of personal sin, but that doesn’t end up becoming legalistic..to live in that freedom is very difficult, but wonderful”
I am paraphrasing of course.
I totally agree.
January 8th, 2009 at 10:19 pm
Sorry, Juli… your comment was stuck in moderation for some reason. Wordpress keeps doing this to us for some reason. The funny thing is that my own comments have gone into moderation and I’ve had to approve them myself… my own comments!!… What’s up with that???
January 8th, 2009 at 10:25 pm
Juli, One of the pastors in the Greenville, SC SGM church (not the senior pastor) is a professional Christian (nouthetic) counselor. I have no idea what that means, but I know he is one. He counsels people as a side business.
January 8th, 2009 at 10:55 pm
Stein Meisterbrew: reference to 1-6-09: Mudslinging and rumors. I guess in one respect it is good it came out and the rumors started flying when D.D. sent the first email out to the entire Church that we might be recieving a “disturbing letter” from the three couples. This is what really sealed the deal in my family leaving. I knew that these 3 couples would not have signed their name to a bunch of bogus crap. Had it been “just another cover up”, who knows, We could have just been manipulated and decieved for another year or 2. As far as the “lake of fire?” I look at D.D. letter as possible “fire prevention” however it has backfired!!!
Let the light shine in: When you said…The stories need to come out…do you know the stories? Because you mentioned you knew the 3 couples.
Julie: My Christian counseling session is tomorrow! Yipee! I agree with your recent post….How can SGM, SGC get any better if all it takes is 10 months in a self run Pastors college where all the canidates come from with-in????? Seminaries are 3 1/2 to 4 yrs long!
I was driving in the car today thinking about my membership resignation. Now that I know a big wig, oops, (lost my mind there for a second, bald) is coming…I’m holding our letter…………….too bad it will be so late in the month! I will tell after I know it’s been handled and I am FREE to leave! I do believe that point #4 (the letter) says something about possible criminal activity……..
January 8th, 2009 at 11:15 pm
Bucky: Our family left the Chesapeake, VA church in 2008. Several families did. We were there for about a decade, and I’m guessing we probably know each other.
There is so much pain in your posts – we get it. We understand it completely and truly sympathize with you. We know many, many families that have left or will be leaving shortly. You are not alone. You know who your safe and true friends are. As you cling to God through this crisis, lean also on those He has provided for you and your family.
Please know there is wonderful life after SGM! There are many incredible churches in this area. I pray your healing is swift and complete. God is still on the throne, and He is STILL GOOD!
My husband and I are willing to communicate via email if you choose. Jim can provide the address for you.
Misled
January 8th, 2009 at 11:28 pm
I have been thinking: might it be a good idea to start gathering together a list of good churches in several cities, sort of a database for others to use as a starting point to rejoin the body of Christ?
I could probably set that up.
Lemme know.
January 9th, 2009 at 12:17 am
RT, I think setting up a database of sorts is a great idea, but there is such a wide variety of personal beliefs on the blogs (even though most came out of SGM churches) that how would that be possible? I’m really asking this, not being sarcatic or anything!
Some are rethinking calvinism, some rethinking being charismatic, some are getting into the emergent movement (which I personally totally disagree with, but that is their business)and there are all sorts of “beliefs” that I have found, upon reading multiple posts, or visiting personal blogs, and praying about things – that really go all over the place theologically.
I am actually very disturbed by it to be honest. Do you remember the guy who posted for a while who was a universalist? (I remembe rhisname just choosing not to post it here) It took a while for everyone here to figure out what “agenda” he was pushing, but we did, and Jim warned him that he was “bumping the curb” – I think that was Jim’s phrase.. and eventually asked him to leave (I think) he was asked, Jim correct me if I am wrong), because his personal beliefs were being pushed on others. Unfortunately, that still happens, albeit to a small degree.
I think we get so hurt in some areas we swing to the other extreme in some cases and start embracing false teachings. I hate that the enemy uses our pain as another opportunity to deceive us
I’ve actually thought alot about this – what are the specific “dangers” if you will, for those hurt by the church? Teachings that they would not have embraced beforehand, but are open to now based on their experiences, and leadership twisting Scripture to the point they may not know what they believe anymore.
Have you given this any thought? I’m just curious.
January 9th, 2009 at 12:18 am
Carole, I’m in moderation again I guess, but it’s all good – No worries! Your explanation was very sweet though, thanks
January 9th, 2009 at 12:23 am
Misled, so good to hear you’ve found life after SGM, and are reaching “back” to encourage others – a very good thing! I hope you and others you were in fellowship with there can encourage one another. Isn’t the Lord good to us?
When I left, it shocked everyone. Nobody had really left before during the three years I was there anyway, who had been as involved as I was. I think more people will leave, not because I see evidence of it now or anyone is saying they will, but because I know that all fruit eventually begins to show – good or bad. It is just a matter of time. They were just adopted in June 2007, so things haven’t gotten so obvious yet, but they will. No signs of leadership thinking differently at this point, just based on conversations with the pastor I had. But I have faith the Holy Spirit will lead many more of my former church family into all truth, convincing them what they need to do.
January 9th, 2009 at 12:29 am
Bucky – Let us know how the session goes!!!!! Misled is awesome – you and her family can support each other. Both of you have something that I didn’t when I left – support, on these blogs and the support of each other.
January 9th, 2009 at 2:28 am
Freedom said about those in Chesapeake that:“I have a feeling it is a big deal to others who were harmed.”
I totally agree. There is a lot of stuff that may not be as “serious” as sexual abuse or child abuse, but is damaging none-the-less.
I left the Chesapeake church a number of years ago. So, in response to your question, Bucky, no – I don’t know the stories. I hardly see any of those folks any more, except for a few close friends who remain in touch even though I’ve “left the fold.” But I’ve seen enough of SGM to know how it operates. All these stories come as no surprise to me. Noel’s story was particularly shocking, but I’ve heard of really bad advice and counseling from SGC pastors that would shock those outside the bubble that is SGM. Stuff that goes way, way beyond “what is written.”
I’m so sad every time I hear of someone else hurting within that church. My heart aches for the hurting and suffering folks in SGM – the mentally ill, the badly-treated wives, those who have had a serious loss or are dealing with grief, those who just plain don’t fit in – because I know how hard it is when you just KNOW that something isn’t right and long for a helping hand up from the pastors or anyone who would notice. I think that’s just it – anyone who would just NOTICE and care about something that maybe isn’t as serious as child abuse, but isn’t as frivolous as whether your shirt is modest enough or not. They are so bent on trying to be counter-cultural that they forget that people need love, support and genuine care no matter what they are wearing or what they are watching on TV.
The good news is that there is life after SGM. It’s scary to leave, but it’s not worth the damage done to your soul by staying if you’re hurting or suffering. Especially if you have a serious mental illness or are dealing with grief. You need to get help. Godly, qualified counselors and loving pastors in other churches can give hope and lovingly lead you into healing and restoration. I know this from personal experience.
I found trying to deal with my real-life issues while also dealing with the issues that come along with SGM is like trying to clean up the china shop while the bull is still running around inside it. You are not a failure or uncommitted if you are not finding healing within SGM.
I think Reformed Teacher has a great idea of starting a list of solid churches in surrounding areas (not just Chesapeake) that can offer support to those who need it.
Wow – that was quite a late-night ramble.
January 9th, 2009 at 7:52 am
Freedom: I don’t know about “awesome”, but thanks. I do know this hasn’t been easy, I still have fear that sometimes strangles me. And I am so grateful that our time of leaving came when there was support through these blogs. I can’t imagine leaving SGM with NO support, no one to say ‘It’s not just you’.
Juli: You don’t know how many times I’ve started to email you! I feel like I’ve watched you walk this out (all the ups and downs) and I love how refreshingly transparent you have been. With your pain, your anger, your love, your concern, and your desire for Jesus to be glorified. And the softness (the good kind!!) that has permiated your posts is a testimony to the Holy Spirit’s continual work in you. Thank you for always bringing it back around!
Bucky and all the other Chesapeake SGMers considering leaving: It’s NOT easy, but just wait till you experience that first taste of true freedom in Christ. Now THAT’S awesome!
Misled
January 9th, 2009 at 8:23 am
Re: helping each other find a church…Rt, Juli, others..
I think it could be helpful keeping in mind what Juli said about most people being in a state of questioning. Actually, most healthy churches allow , encourage questioning (learning?) and don’t require strict adherence to their doctrinal distinctives. We attended a Vineyard Church for a year or so after leaving SGM and it was so wonderful. Are we Vineyard people, whatever that means? I don’t think so, but we got what we needed at that time. Love, times in God’s presence. They have a strong couselling and prayer ministry, we went up for prayer I think every single time we attended. Every time! We were so hurting, lonely, feeling betrayed, feeling like fools for being duped etc… to have people just pray for us, people we didn’t even know love us, was just so healing.
Nervous about the charismatic? Choose a church that has care high on their list of priorities, probably this will be a smaller church, not a mega church. Just want to get lost for awhile, sit back in the shadows? Choose a larger church. Maybe stick to larger denominations where you know a system of accountability is in place, where they care about their reputation. Maybe don’t choose groups that are enamoured with C.J. and SGM.
Scared to go to church right now? Relax, take a break. Invite other believers over for dinner and tell them your story, listen to theirs, pray together or pull out a guitar and sing some love songs to Jesus together. We did a lot of this after leaving too, we had a few other couple who had left or who were working up the courage to leave.
Jesus made a promise to his disciples just before he ascended to the right hand of the Father where he intercedes for us. He said he wouldn’t leave us as orphans. We are not alone! You are not alone! We have the very Spirit of Jesus with us and in us with the promise that He would never never leave us. I pray that He is revealing himself to all of us, that he is manifesting himself to us, showing himself to be real especially as doubts, questions, fears try to push in and take over our lives. They will not conquer us, Jesus is in us and he will win the day!
There is so much peace and rest when we just know he’s with us.
January 9th, 2009 at 9:33 am
Hi Juli, and all.
If I did start some sort of church database, the project would certainly be fraught with danger theologically, especially given my reformed leanings.
However a way to go about it might be simply to have us, the refuge and survivors bloggers, share a church name and a ‘review’ of the church, which would include how many times you have attended the church, its basic theological bent, and then your feedback on the ‘feel’ of the church: polity? size? style of worship? comments about specific things you noticed?
There would be no reason to slam a church–it takes a long time to be in a church to see its underbelly.
But it seems to me, (coming from the LDS church thousands of years ago), when someone comes out of a community as closed as SGM it is bewildering to even try to figure out where to even start, since you have heard for the last several years or decades that ‘other churches’ are all messed up.
I listened to a sermon from SGM a couple of weeks ago in which a pastor was talking about how his church is not a courting church. In it, he said ‘other evangelical churches’ have let creep come into their church, ‘other churches’ have watered their doctrine, ‘other churches’ don’t understand true worship, ‘other churches’ spend their time and money on missions that is not fruitful, ‘other churches’ have dry boring doctrine and dull boring worship.
(Since I go to church in the same town as he does, I just comforted myself that although he obviously had visited almost every church in town, he had somehow missed mine, and missed an Assemblies church (1500+) down the street, an EPC church (700+) over there, and that big Baptist church on the corner (1000+), since that doesn’t describe our churches at all. But I am sure he spends all his free time visiting all the ‘other churches’ in the area, so I fully expect him to show up this weekend and then retract his statements the following Sunday.)
This is undiluted, steaming, stinking, SLANDEROUS, (slander = lies), misleading, self-congratulatory CRAP that demeans the body of Christ–the elect for whom the Lord of the Universe bled and died.
The body of Christ is alive, vibrant, loving, sinful, messy, beautiful and redeemed, be it in a big PCA church, a little white-framed Southern Baptist church or a rowdy Assemblies of God. There are some whacked Methodist churches, there are some messed-up Presbyterian churches, there are some horrible Baptist churches, there are some sick charismatic churches–trust your instincts and avoid them.
But there is tremendous freedom in most churches who confess Jesus as Lord. For instance, at my church, (which is much like most churches who are solid–you will find one, too! There are lots!), we aren’t forced to confess anything we don’t want to–at small group, we study the Word together, then pray for each other and laugh with each other and go to movies together and eat meals together every once in awhile. We are not told what a fabulous place our church is–and the only time we hear about other churches from the pulpit is when we acknowledge that all the churches in the metro area have agreed to corporately pray together on that day for a certain subject.
We are never told to work harder to try to be a group of people that is a blessing to our pastor. The congregation (about 1000), would probably fall off their chairs laughing if our pastor told us to do that. Instead, he tells us we are all messes and that we need Jesus today to save us from ourselves. We tutor inner city kids. We send lots of folks on missions trips. We support tons of missionaries who actually do not work in the rich US suburbs! We support several Crusade, IV and Young Life missionaries. Those guys all stand in our pulpit frequently and give us a report about what is happening in their missions world.
If a pastor every called a family meeting, it would be open to the public. If he ever stood in the pulpit and tried to get us to be his allies for anything, the elders (we elect them OURSELVES!) would stand and bodily lift him off the stage and then go in for an elder smack-down in the back room.
Our church is messed up. That is what happens whenever a bunch of sinners are called to work together. If you find a church that is not messed up, you better run fast. Good decisions are made, so are great decision and stinking decisions. But grace changes us and GOD is glorified as lives are changed. Love covers a multitude of sins (I think the SGM Bible says, “love covers up a multitude of sins, but better check the ESV).
Our church is not our life, and this is really important. Our faith in Christ is our life. I do not expect my fellow believers from church to be my only friends. I like my neighbors, co-workers and I follow scriptures injunction to be a worker at home. We aren’t busy alot, like my SGMer friends–you know, it is OK just to BE by yourself or with your family or a couple of friends. We don’t go to a bunch of conferences. Our church has lots to do, I guess, women’s Bible studies, Men’s groups, but there is no expectation that you will go to anything.
On the flip side, when you come to visit on Sunday morning (and I am speaking for many many large churches) you will not be love bombed. It is possible that not too many people will even notice you. Are you there to be noticed? Or to worship? Go ahead and worship. Listen to what is going on around you. Read the bulletin carefully. Call the pastor with questions. Then, when you are ready, join a small group or go to the weekly bible study. Start going to a Sunday School class.
During this quiet time of church-shopping, you will go through withdrawal. I know. You are used to running and going to that building all the time for meetings and conferences and meals and car washes and community fairs and book clubs and homeschool fairs. Think of the gas you’ll save. Read the books you have always wanted to read. Talk to your family. Have the pagan neighbors over. Go away with the fam or by yourself or with a friend for a weekend jaunt somewhere. That is OK–no one will call you to make sure you haven’t sinned or anything. Take a nap. Clean your drawers. Spend time with the Lord.
Back to life at a messy normal church: the teens have a vibrant life together, we drop them off for group stuff, and many of them also meet in small groups for discipleship. We ascribe to covenant family theology, which means this (in theological terms): Steve, the young married guy that disciples my son, meets with him and a couple of other guys from his school, they pray together, study together, laugh together, eat together, and Steve shows him what it means to walk out life in Christ as a young man. My husband and I, during that time, hang out at home and thank God for Steve, who speaks truth, (mostly non-verbal) into my kid’s life by loving him on a long term committed basis. I trust Steve, the elders have met with him and checked him out theologically, he has had a criminal check. I don’t need to sit next to my near-adult son all the time.
PK is right in his belief that the church polity is the root of the problem. In other churches, healthy ones at least, the fact that the congregation has elected elders to represent them is very important. Look for a church that does this, and not for a life term, either. There need to be men of maturity who do not gain financially from the church in control of it.
Sorry about the rant. I just sense fear over how even to start a journey into freedom from the controlling, overbusy world of SGM.
Freedom!
January 9th, 2009 at 9:43 am
Whoops sorry, one more comment:
One of the primary and most FUNDAMENTAL signs of a sick church is fear, especially fear of leaving.
You are free to worship with whatever group of believers you want to, biblically, since we are all members one of another. My charismatic brethren, my arminian brethren, my orthodox brethren–we are all one in Christ.
SGM denies this. That is HERESY.
I laugh to think of going into my pastor and telling him we have decided to go elsewhere to worship.
He would say, ‘Why? Is there a problem that needs to be dealt with?
I would say, “No. I just like ABC Church better.”
He would say, “We’ll miss you terribly. I hear that is a good church, you’ll have a great time with them. Hey, I hear your team is playing Saturday, think they are going to win?”
This is truth. We have no fear about exiting our church, since the only way to exit ‘our church’ would be to deny Christ, blaspheming the Holy Spirit and being sent to hell. All of you are my church. All believers, those in Ghana and in Georgia, are my church. On Sunday morning, I am simply choosing the small gathering of my church with which to worship and serve.
Freedom!
January 9th, 2009 at 10:06 am
Julie,
I LOVE your suggestions in your above comment! I believe that everyone has different needs in looking for a new church… or not.
While we have all experienced the same types of abuse at our SGM churches, our responses to that abuse is very different and unique.
When Jim and I left our SGM church, I was in a place where I was confused, I was deeply hurt (the blogs weren’t around then, so I went through the “am I crazy” phase for quite a while, as I didn’t know that what had happened to us had happened to others… Thank God for the internet and the blogs!!), I was questioning myself, my convictions, my very salvation. I had no trust for Christian leadership, and had no desire to place myself under anyone’s authority… that hadn’t worked too well before!
I didn’t even want to visit a church!… I was too afraid that this kind of thing could happen again.
We caught some flack from other (non SGM) Christians we know for not getting involved in a church right away… I know their hearts were for us and they were concerned, but it just wasn’t what we needed at that time. God wanted to heal our hearts… He wanted to tear down our faulty SGM thinking and beliefs and build us back up in His Truth.
What we needed was for God to meet us right where we were… and He did!!
As I questioned everything I had learned and believed, He was faithful to show me those things I believed that were a lie, those things that were twisted, and reinforced Truth to my heart and to my soul… I am in a MUCH better place now! I don’t regret for a minute not jumping into another church… God wanted to do something in our hearts and he wanted to teach us to trust HIM and follow HIM, not fallible, sinful men. We heard, and listened, to His voice… and grew closer and closer to Him as we came to rely more and more on Him… He was all we had!
I am certainly not suggesting that everyone leaving their church should not go to another church… God has a plan for each and every one of us. That just happened to be ours, our journey of healing post SGM. I’m just saying that, as Julie shared in her above comment, that there are many options… don’t feel that you have to conform to what others think you should do. Do what is right for you.
*off my soapbox now*
January 9th, 2009 at 10:13 am
Juli,
I don’t know why wordpress is snagging comments… but yours and mine (!) seem to be the most likely targets, for some reason… although it did snag Light’s and RT’s, too.
Hopefully Jim and I will be quick to approve any comments that go into moderation… and hopefully wordpress will be able to fix this glitch soon…
January 9th, 2009 at 11:10 am
I wish that every SGMer who ever defended something they did not 100% believe in, (only in order to be “kept around” or not get into trouble) would realize that the more they say nothingand allow evil to prosper, that evil will eventually devour them.
If Larry Tomczak was not safe from this cutting loose and slander, then you will not be either.
A brave man dies once.
A coward a thousand deaths.
January 9th, 2009 at 11:30 am
““A pastor once answered an accusation about harming several families in our SGM church because of a bone-headed decision that was made, by saying that these families were “Collateral Damage”. He said, the decision that was made served the greater good (SGM). I’m still amazed at that statement.”
That is beyond tragic. Reminds me of Stalin who felt it necessary to break a few eggs to make an omelet. Unfortunately, the eggs were human beings. I don’t think God takes too kindly to that.
Collateral D, sometimes I would run into a few other people that left my SGM church around the same time I left. We would refer to ourselves at “The rejects of Covenant Fellowship”. I would much rather count myself in that group, than with those held in high esteem by SGM. When I read my bible it seems God likes hanging out with us rejects a bit more than the good religious folks.
January 9th, 2009 at 12:03 pm
Carole, Thank you so much for your last post. After 20+ years in our sgm church, I feel the same way you felt. I have felt so alone lately. We’ve visited churches but nothing feels right. We aren’t pushing to go anywhere in particular but staying home every Sunday is depressing and feels odd. Christmas was hard because we went to a church where we knew a few people but it wasn’t the same. I honestly feel like I’m in a fog. Everything I thought was safe( as in leadership} is now being questioned. I want to trust people in leadership but am afraid. My children are wounded and don’t want to church shop. My daughter (NOTW) seems to be doing better because she’s speaking out and warning her friends still in sgm. I, on the other hand, am more timid about the repercussions from speaking out. I did go out to someone’s house still in sgm for a surprise birthday party. They are all still in sgm. As I looked around the table I was so sad that even though I am a good friend of the birthday girl, I don’t really feel a part of any of them anymore. It’s not just the attending of a church that I miss, it’s the routine of co op, caregroup, youthgroup etc. I know it will get better but it seems so daunting to start all over. I’m lying here in bed with a nasty bug so that also may be coloring my view.
January 9th, 2009 at 12:24 pm
“A brave man dies once.
A coward a thousand deaths.”
LOVE this!
January 9th, 2009 at 12:41 pm
Hey Anxious!
Those nasty bugs don’t help our outlook, do they?
I hope and pray you get better soon!
I, too, felt so alone, and I missed the busyness of my prior SGM life. I didn’t know who I could trust, but I knew deep down inside that I really didn’t trust anyone. But then God started speaking to me, telling me that I could trust Him!
I clung to that… and He was so faithful to show me how trustworthy He is! He built me up, piece by piece, brick by brick, in His gentle, loving way.
I have to say, as alone as I felt I was during that time, I was never alone! And as difficult as it was, I wouldn’t trade that time for anything. I am in a much better place now, my feet and my eyes are firmly planted on Him, my Rock…
I would encourage you to not push anything… let God do what He wants to do in you. Sometimes we just need to be still and know that He is God. And we should fall at His feet and worship Him, and seek Him with our minds, our hearts, our very souls. Only He can bind up our wounds and care for us, teach us His Truth, and then set us back on His path, made whole again.
Praying for you!
January 9th, 2009 at 1:04 pm
Thanks, Carole
January 9th, 2009 at 1:11 pm
Will someone please tell up what happened at the Chesapeake church?
Thanks,
William
January 9th, 2009 at 1:41 pm
Juli:
If you are reforned there are some databases already in existence. For PCA churches, try the church directory on pcanet.org or if you lean in reformed baptist direction try the church directory at founders.org
January 9th, 2009 at 2:03 pm
Anxious,
I am praying for peace for you and oyur family right now. I left my church in April 2008, and the first Sunday I missed, (which was the day after I found the blogs) I went to the church that I am presently attending. It was an evening service that Sunday, and was the Lord’s Supper. It was a small intimate group, about 25 people, maybe. The pastor was not even present, he was out of town.
As they sang “Blessed be the Name of the Lord” I started bawling, on the back row, uncontrollably. “You give and take away…my heart will choose to say, blessed be the name of the Lord”…I kept thinking – my life is over, I can’t handle this, and it had really hit me for the first time – I lost my church!
You see, I was so scared, and it was because I didn’t have anything (or anyone) to fall back on. I had placed ALL my hope, trust, etc in my SGM church, SGM friends, and SGM pastors. When the Lord told me to leave, it was like he asked me to sever ALL ties to my life. I felt so alone, so vulnerable, and was extremely afraid. I’m not suggesting your fear is from the same thing as mine, just telling you how I worked through the fear..and I think you should too – by focusing on rebuilding and rediscovering your identity IN CHRIST..
I took one day at a time. I started reading the Word of GOd again for myself, not to “learn” anything, but to find God in those pages. I needed to know HIM..and He was faithful to reveal Himself to me. It wasn’t directional, it wasn’t “go to this church” type thing, it was simply a time of falling in love with the Lord all over again.
You see, I had been unfaithful to Him, played the harlot, if you will, by making the church my “lover”. HE is the lover of my soul. It was extremely humbling for me to come back to Him and realize He wasn’t going to smack me down in anger or say “I told you so!” His lovingkindness truly lead me to repentance. I had forgotten His goodness and mercy during my time t SGM because of the constant focus on indwelling sin.
In the book of Hosea, there is such a beautiful picture of this restoration by the Lord to the one He loves – Israel playing the harlot and how God treats her when she comes back..what he desires to do FOR her..
A few verses that particularly spoke to me in Hosea during this time of being in the wilderness, was chapter 2, verses 14-16
“Therefore, behold, I will allure her, bring her into the wilderness and speak kindly to her. Then I will give her her vineyards from there, and the valley of Achor as a door of hope. ANd she will sing there as in the days of her youth, as in the day when se came up from the land og Egypt. It will come about in that day, declares the Lord, that you will call Me Ishi (my husband) and will no longer call me Baali (my master, or my Baal).”
notice that God Himself allures her to the wilderness and speaks KINDLY to her, and gives her good things FROM THERE.
He’s so good. Just keep looking to Him to meet your every need.
January 9th, 2009 at 2:08 pm
RT, ok, database idea is good.
So how could we do this database while still allowing for those who want their identities to remain anonymous or at least retain some privacy, the ability to do so?
January 9th, 2009 at 2:17 pm
Juli, You hit the nail on the head. I, too, thought our church and sgm was “it”. Thank you so much for your encouragement. Having a teenaged son and 20 yr old makes looking a little more challenging. They are terrific kids but wary of other churches so far. It sounds like your church is wonderful!
January 9th, 2009 at 2:25 pm
hmmm.
Will ponder this.
The problems with the denomination databases are that they are useful, and certainly great places to start, but will also include some unhealthy churches. Also, it is very possible that there is a fabulous XYZ denomination congregation that someone found and would like to put up for examination by a SGM (or anything else) traveller.
We could simply use our refuge/survivors names…although many of you know each other, I suspect.
Ideas?
January 9th, 2009 at 4:12 pm
RT,
Well I think the first thing we’d have to ask ourselves is do we have a “standard” for churches that would go on the list – and if so, what would they be?
I’m also thinking of answering basic questions like the following:
worship style – contemporary or traditional, or both offered. Is the worship charismatic, if so, can we “define” what that would look like?
Bible teaching – expository, topical or combination. This is very important to know for many people BEFORE they go.
Views of MIssions/Evangelism – do they have anything in place?
How big is the church? If they are independent or non-denom, are they part of a larger orgnization (like SGM) If they are a mainline denom, are they part of WillowCreek, or Acts29 or a similar church-planting network?
Sacraments – how and what and for who
Structure of Church Govt – elders, deacons, pastor rule, etc..
Are Financial statements available to the public or just members, or to anyone?
Any other distinctives – KJV only, etc. WHich authors, books and teachers are “floating around” in the Church as being recommended, taught in small groups, etc. This certainly can reveal some of the maybe less obvious doctrinal positions.
just some starting points. THose are things I personally look at.
January 9th, 2009 at 6:42 pm
We left our SG church 7 months ago after many years together. We left because of the deceptive, dangerous and ungodly leadership of the pastor. It had nothing to do with the families that we had fallen deeply in love with. For us it has been like having a death in the family and the hurt still remains. We have been made out to be the scapegoat for this coward and with cleaverness and lies our reputation has been remade by this individual, so these families we love want nothing to do with us
Leaving was hard but it wasn’t until we left that we began to have our eyes open to just how wrong things were and how spiritually and emotionally unhealthy we had become. So although we still haven’t found our place in a “local church” we have found our first love again and are working on our personal relationship with our Heavenly Father who loves us so dearly. He has been waiting for us to just sit at his feet and listen to HIM and not be busy doing. Contrary to the council we were given that our family would not thrive apart from a local church, our family is now stronger and closer than it has ever been and as a family we are growing deeper in our relationship with God together-totally cool.
We have also learned that SG is not THE only church out there. In our search for a church we have found many good churches and all with in a 15 mile radius of our home. We have learned to rest in the fact that we are part of the body of Christ and have begun to pray earnestly that wholeness and wellness will come to the whole body of Christ and that we as the body will one day here on earth be unified and live in peace with one another.
Wow, I didn’t want this post to get this long. All this was to say that yes the leaving was hard, is hard, but it is so much sweeter for us now that we have left. The hardest part now is knowing that those we deeply love are in a dangerous relationship and they don’t even know it.
January 9th, 2009 at 7:38 pm
Beauty-
It’s ok to let it out-that’s why we’re all here.
Peace-mm
January 9th, 2009 at 8:38 pm
Beauty from ashes,
I like your name. Your story and mine are very similar, but from different times. So glad you felt free to share and are experiencing the goodness of the Lord.
Blessings!
January 9th, 2009 at 10:50 pm
Beauty,
you wrote:So although we still haven’t found our place in a “local church” we have found our first love again and are working on our personal relationship with our Heavenly Father who loves us so dearly. He has been waiting for us to just sit at his feet and listen to HIM and not be busy doing. Contrary to the council we were given that our family would not thrive apart from a local church, our family is now stronger and closer than it has ever been and as a family we are growing deeper in our relationship with God together-totally cool.
I am so encouraged to read that! I can also testify to the truths you have experienced – the desire of the Lord to draw us closer to Himself, the swift progression of discernment AFTER taking the step of faith to leave, the peace in knowing you are still part of the Body even if you aren’t attending a local church, and I certainly can relate to the pastor saying untrue things about you and your friends shunning you. All too familiar!
Don’t get discouraged if it takes a while to find another church – I am so glad to hear your family is closer now, my family got closer too after we left. It seems when you strip away all the outside comforts from friends and church, you turn to each other, and that is the way it should be. (After of course a turning to the Lord and getting closer to Him)
sounds like you are on the right path…stay focused on Him! The road ahead is hard at times, confusing, but it is also filled with peace, love, joy, and an ever-increasing faith. So worth it!
January 10th, 2009 at 12:40 am
Anxious,
Oh Sister, it is hard, isn’t it!? I know some people make that transition immediately. ONe church one week, another church the next. (I’m jealous!) I wish that is the way God had worked it with me. But fdor whatever reason, He has worked things out differently. (I’m only guessing that He knows what is best for me.) It has been YEARS for me. Years. I have been in a church for a few years, but it isn’t “home” for me. Who knows, maybe God doesn’t want me to ever make a church as important to me, doesn’t want it to be the dearest place on earth? I do know for sure that in the frist few years after leaving, every time i prayed about finding a new church, I felt very strongly that He was telling me He wanted me all to Himself. (Maybe I would have put more of my trust in a church instead of Him? Who knows. I know He ministered to me that He is a jealous God and that He wanted me to look to no other man or woman.
I can still remember the moment, the very moment, I felt like He finally relased me to be part of a local church. (I agree with RT, I was a part of the body, the real church, all along and that is what really matters. The liver cannot cut itself out and live on its own. We can’t pretend that one church is so much more important than the other.) It was 5 years after I was dismembered. I was standing in… not the church I was sometimes going to.,.. not a pastor’s office or a therapist’s office or the home of another beleiver. It was in the magazine aisle of CVS. I had been walking down the aisle and the cover of the O magazine caught my eye. I opened it to see if it was wroth buying and as I read one line that jumped out at me, I felt God say that it was now time for me to be part of a church community again.
I still don’t love my church. It still isn’t my “home”. That’s OK. I have only one real home- with Him in heaven.
Until then i’ll be happy to be one tiny cell in the body of Christ.
January 10th, 2009 at 1:28 am
edited- please ignore.
Signed,
Stunned
who is so grateful for the editing option here
January 10th, 2009 at 9:26 am
Beauty from Ashes… (your name is so beautiful, I couldn’t bring myself to shorten it!)
I am so sorry that you have been hurt by the SGM organization! Truly! The pain and hurt you feel towards the SGM church you were a part of grieves my heart… I know that pain and hurt firsthand, as well. To love the people in that church, yet to see the ungodly leadership… well, it’s not a place for anyone to have to find themselves in within a church they love so much.
BUT… I am rejoicing with you that God saw and He heard and He Is moving and working in your life! How kind and good He is!!
Finding your First Love again… beautiful, beautiful words! 
January 10th, 2009 at 3:00 pm
Stunned,
I so appreciated your words. I read your post this morning after I had a meltdown. I still am fighting a bug and we are going away tomorrow and I still feel nauseous! Does anyone have a home remedy ? I was hoping some family time in the Poconos would lift my spirits but as I’ve laid here since Wednesday, all I’ve done is feel so out of control. I really believe what I will take away from this time is my incessant need to have everything predictable and under control. I need to look to my Savior not my friends, husband, kids or my loyal golden retriever to get me through this time. I’ve always known that intellectually but now when the rubber meets the road I need to believe and cling to Him.
January 10th, 2009 at 4:33 pm
This is difficult for me, since I have many relationships within the Ches. Sov. Grace. I would like to differ from what “Meister” has said about the pastors “showing genuine repentance, and humility, with a sincere desire of reconciliation.” I was at the meeting, and if no one had spoken up, I would have asumed this to be true. However, that being said, others did speak up, and one member in particular who I have the highest regard for. Once he spoke, it was clear that the only thing that might be genuine is the fact that they were repenting, but only because it appears they have been caught in many wrong doings. There absolutely did not appear to be a desire for reconciliation. Come on, the families who brought the allegations were destroyed by gene Emerso in front of at a huge gathering of church members. This is truly a bunch of bull, and though I’m not sure who “Meister” is, he is most certainly a “Party Faithful.” Unfortunately, this is what is to be expected of many in SGC’s who not only dring the Kool Aid, but also seek to share it with others!
I certainly hope that all is revealed, AND SOON! And truly believe it will be.
January 10th, 2009 at 5:59 pm
Long (and other Chesapeake insiders).
Knowing the whole story (told to me by multiple sources) and not being able to share the details is not only frustrating-I feel that God’s purpose in this has not yet been achieved.
Someone needs to post the story. Gene Emerson should get the boot for what he tried to do.
January 10th, 2009 at 10:38 pm
Just a side note: beware of your wishes, our family went up to the Poconos to ski on Friday and I spent my Apris time in the ER with Joseph.
Yup, broke his radius.
January 10th, 2009 at 11:12 pm
Jim, do those who have told you everything about the Chesapeake story have a reason for wanting it kept quiet? I’m just interested about why people are keeping it so hush-hush. Are they waiting for the 3 families to let it out on their own?
P.S. Sorry, DB. That’s rough.
January 10th, 2009 at 11:14 pm
Anxious – I hope you start feeling better – I will pray for you – and that you enjoy your vacation – I always wanted to go to the Poconos..mainly because I just like to say that word Poconos, Poconos… makes me smile!
Beuaty from Ashes –
I’m continuing to pray for you as well! Rest in Him. He’s amazing, and will surprise you with how personally wonderful He can be when we are at our lowest..just read King David’s words and see how he experienced the presence of God in the midst of such turmoil, fear, doubt and anxiety..
Long Sufferer – (I hope you feel you can change your name soon to something else as you find freedom and heal from all you have experienced! In the meantime, I’m praying) I hope that you can be a source of encouragement to the families in question. Maybe they can even come here and post anonymously and tell their story. Once things are brought to the Light, the enemy cannot work as powerfully.
But as Jim says, it is the Lord’s timing and perhaps He is not done yet – we can only hope for true repentanct and reconciliation, both at the Ches church and with SGM and Noel…a corporate repentance for so many things that have gone wrong. But as some have said before, that would mean reinventing SGM entirely..
January 10th, 2009 at 11:52 pm
Anxious, enjoy your time in the mountains! Jesus loves you. He really does. he will be right beside you as you drive up to the mountains. He will be with you and hold you as you heal. He will be with you every step of the way.
Hope you have a great time!
Stunned
and craving some snow herself
PS. DB!!! So sorry to hear about your baby!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
January 11th, 2009 at 12:16 am
Hi all! Let the light shine in: It WILL come out, in time. I am still a member there and I am waiting for Jan 25th. Heard CJ is coming. Just read on survivor that Cj will be in Roanoke VA on the 24th. Chesapeake on the 25th. I’m holding back until I turn in my resignation………I just want to see where it goes…….
Long sufferer, you would probably know me! I had heard a while ago about the beer brewing now. I do think the beer might be damaging a few too many brain cells. Beauty, I’m going to call you soon and see if I do know you! I think I do!
January 11th, 2009 at 12:20 am
The boy is doing well, is sort happy because his older brothers say that having a cast is, “A chick magnet.”
Waiting for pictures Jeanette took and I’ll post them on my blog for anyone with extra time on his or her hands.
January 11th, 2009 at 1:10 am
Let-
I have no idea. Someone was going to send me the letters, and was never heard from again. I respect people’s right to privacy, and won’t contact this person to push for what was going to be sent.
Others have told me the story, but I don’t usually ask-”can I post this?”
I assume that all conversations are private until I’m told otherwise. I am frustrated that no one will speak up, but won’t pressure an individual.
All I can do is post to the men of SGM, encouraging them to stand up for truth.
Maybe someone will hear me.
January 11th, 2009 at 3:17 pm
why is it that CJ must come to these places? I mean, I know he is the top man in SGM, but doesn’t that place a burden on him to work through problems in these local churches that they should have been able to work out themselves?
Don’t get my wrong, I think the heirarchy of SGM (that CJ created himself) does place him as the “Buck stops here” man. I am just wondering if after he makes all these visits to churches in turmoil, and private meetings with Noel and Happymom, that he doesn’t come to the conclusion that perhaps this is more than one man can bear. Like Moses figured out. It isn’t good for one man to be responsible or looked at as the “savior” of SGM – I know CJ can’t fix these problems, and even if he does apologize FOR the actions of those under him, what then?
I guess what I am getting at is I wonder if he will realize the fruit of the SGM polity, culture, environment, authoritairanism, whatever it is – is not good, godly, or bearing fruit in keeping with righteousness. Will he come to this realization that somehow, somewhere along the way, something is “off” as a result of seeing this fruit now because HE is the one to deal with it?
We can only pray he does.
January 11th, 2009 at 9:50 pm
I see much anger and resentment flying through this blog. I see that many are casting judgment, and even hoping that the plight of SGC would slide into demise and utter failure. I truly think that some would actually rejoice over it. God is moving at SGC Chesapeake. I believe God is working through these latest trials at SGC and when they are over we’ll see many changes doctrinally, politically, and a more unified church. Hey Bucky don’t give up hope and leave just yet, there are changes already here and more to come. Stay strong in the Lord.
Jim you should come to the family meeting on the 25th 6pm.
January 11th, 2009 at 10:08 pm
I live in Florida, and I’m no longer part of the family.
Why don’t you send me a tape of both meetings?
January 11th, 2009 at 10:30 pm
Hey Jim, You know they will tape the meeting to cover themselves but it will not be available in our bookstore! ha-ha. Stein, I do believe God is moving in SGC. Eyes are being open. I have already decided to leave. Have wanted to leave for the last year or so and kept hanging on praying for change. Never happened. SO God is moving, moving my family to another Church down the road. All I ever heard at SGC was how bad we all are as sinners yet “JOY” has been overlooked. It was a lop-sided gospel. The Victory has been won! Praise God! Thank you Jesus!
January 11th, 2009 at 11:08 pm
Stein MB – for that to happen, almost all of the current SGM church pastors, “apostles”, CGR’s, upper leadership and CJ himself would need to step down. THe style of church government SGM uses would need to change (no more Pope CJ at the top). SGM would need to admit it’s wrong doings, admit that they are a shepherding, courtship, homeschooling, patriarchy church and let the member decide if they want to be part of that. They would need to admit the damage they have done to members AND former members. CJ himself will need to admit that he has covered up sexual abuse and rape cases. They will need to admit they broke the law. SGM needs to come clean with the files they have kept on all members, survivors and present. They will need to admit that if they are a cult or at least admit they are using cultic techniques (these are pretty well documented). They will need to admit to the manipulation techiques they use during the service during worship and how the “teachings” are geared to whatever rough patch sgm has hit. They need to admit that the whole use of peace makers is just another PR attempt to “keep the sgm’s reputation in tact”.
I could go on and on – this thing have been well documented on the internet.
As far as your comment about some people “even hoping that the plight of SGC would slide into demise and utter failure” – that is problem true, but can you blame them for felling that way after the damage that sgm did to those folks?
I can’t blame them.
I think Juli said it best – “God is calling his people out of Egypt” – and this is someone who is praying for SGM to change.
I think you will see a much smaller SGM – you are correct that when it is all over, those who stay will be more unified – but the numbers will be much, much smaller than they currently are.
January 11th, 2009 at 11:10 pm
Hey Bucky – send me an email iamfreedom at live dot com
I have something I want to ask you. You can set up a fake email address if you don’t want me to see your real name.
January 12th, 2009 at 3:54 am
Stein, I’m sorry you see so much anger here – actually the refuge is MUCH calmer than survivors…hence the name I suppose? Anyway, frustrations are normal for people who have been in legalistic churches. We all have further to go – we aren’t perfect, but we also aren’t the “worst sinners you know” either.
I think I could speak for the majority on this blog by saying that we truly love the Body of Christ, we just don’t worship it. We love our brothers and sisters in the Lord, but many of us can’t sit idly by and watch many of them (not all) die spiritually in such a legalistic environment. Some feel compelled to speak out, others to pray, some both, but we all care, even if we show it differently.
Stein – we aren’t a bunch of disgruntled people who want revenge on the church that hurt us, we really aren’t. And we are not individualistic, anti-accountability believers either. It is just that many of us are seeking that Biblical balance. I personally want and need accountability in my walk, just not at the expense of my personal faith and relationship to the Lord. And I am coming to realize that the Body is bigger than just SGM believers. I can have acountability (and I do) with believers in other churches, other denominations..and they are still part of the Body. And more importantly for me to remember, I am still part of the Body of Christ, even though I left SGM.
We’ve experienced some extremes in our “church experiences” and part of healing, growing and moving on is allowing the Lord to teach us what is right, and best, and how to love in the midst of it all. It’s not an easy road to walk, I’ll be honest – I’ve certainly made my fair share of mistakes along the way out of Egypt – but I would never go back to the bondage. Bondage I put myself in, and bondage that was also put upon me by others.
I hope that you will keep reading, striving for unity in the Body, but not at the cost of compromising truth. We CAN still love one another and disagree – it’s a beautiful result (or as SGM would say, “evidence”) of that thing called GRACE.
January 12th, 2009 at 8:16 am
Stein (and I was talking with my dh about your name and we were both laughing at the wit,)
I think the anger is well-placed. If one is not angered by abuse of a child, what would make that person angry?
But the Bible says to be angry but sin not. On this one, I agree with you wholeheartedly.
Do I want to see SGM fail?
NO!
Do I want to see fundamental changes especially in the leadership dynamics?
Hell YES!
Why? Because SGM has so much going for it, so much potential towards the work of the Kingdom, but that’s all being fracked up by an inappropriately powerful set of esteemed leaders. Although this saying is not in the Bible, it rings true, power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
January 12th, 2009 at 8:19 am
Oh, and Joseph is fine. It’s good to have a big sister that can come around and look at the x-rays and confirm the fracture and the fact they let straightforward fractures sit in splints for days to let the swelling go down before casting it.
January 12th, 2009 at 9:15 am
Glad to hear Joseph is fine, DB.
January 12th, 2009 at 1:18 pm
glad to hear he is recovering. i had been this close to heading up to the mountains myself bnut decided to wit around to see what kind of snow we’d get here. how disappointing to see only a dusting! maybe next weekend…
January 12th, 2009 at 2:49 pm
You guys must have been praying for me! I was so nauseous up to 5 minutes before we walked out the door and then it subsided!!! I’m sitting in the wireless area with snow on the mountains and I am marveling at how anyone cannot believe in the Creator! Thank you again for your prayers.
January 12th, 2009 at 4:33 pm
Anxious, I’m so excited to hear from you that you are having a good time!! Have been thinking about you and praying. Hurrah!
January 12th, 2009 at 6:11 pm
Thank you Juli for your sincere comments, and actually “I am the worst sinner I know”.
With 10 years of my life invested in this church I’m going to ride it out and see what happens. I’m excited to see what kind of changes will come and the growth that will happen in spite of the trials we’re in the midst of.
January 12th, 2009 at 8:10 pm
Hey Freedom! I am trying to set up another email account and I am locked out of cox! I forgot my original password……..both of my accounts have my name in them so I do want to set up another one. I read in the past you were part of Southside. That was like ‘88????? Looking forward to your question.
On another note: 2 of the couples involved have been removed from their Care Group leadership. Although only one couples photo has been removed. Makes me wonder if the other couple is falling back in!
January 12th, 2009 at 10:15 pm
Hey Bucky – you can set up a hotmail, live dot com or yahoo email for free too
January 12th, 2009 at 11:06 pm
Hey Bucky – yes, I was part of southside back in the early days. In fact, dave bendinelli (I don’t know how long you have been part of that church) is the one that threatened me and yelled at me when I left. For my part, I told him exactly what I think of SGM.
My heart does go out to the members who have manipulated and lied to at the Chesapeake church.
Look forward to emailing with you!!!
January 13th, 2009 at 10:10 am
We were a part of the Chesapeake Church until 1999. We (”the poster children of SGM”) then left to help plant a church in another city. We left SGM in 2002 after a year of appealing to the entire Apostolic team with our concerns and have since experienced great healing after several painful years. We went back to visit in the spring of last year and were incredibly disturbed to see and hear some of what was going on. I do believe that one of those situations is what has caused this current uproar. As I read through this blog last night I felt like the oldest sibling who was now on her own only to find out that her parents are getting divorced. I am so grieved for my siblings who now have to choose between their parents.
All that to say that we are a family who God has healed and brought into amazing FREEDOM apart from SGM.
My husband and I have had others that had gone before us in leaving that walked us through the process. Without them we would have crashed and burned. Unfortunately we have seen way to many lives destroyed in the process of leaving. Please feel free to contact us if we can be a help in any way. There is great freedom in Christ to be had.
January 13th, 2009 at 11:08 am
Grieved But Hopeful – Would you be willing to email me at misled at hotmail dot com? Thank you.
Misled
January 13th, 2009 at 11:17 am
Grieved but hopeful, what words of hope you give. Thank you for sharing and welcome to the site.
Stunned
and some days hopeful for change, some days not
January 13th, 2009 at 12:22 pm
Stein, you wrote: “With 10 years of my life invested in this church..”
can I just be honest and say your comment is a VERY TYPICAL reason why people who MAY be in an abusive/destructive/detrimental situation choose to continue to stay. I don’t know if this is the case with you of course, I don’t know you, but your comment caught my attention.
Something that we often due in accessing situations to determine if they are normal, right, good, beneficial, worthwhile, etc is to have a baseline of comparison.
A good spiritual “trap” works like the following:
Paranoia about leaving the organization makes people afraid to leave
the “bait” is often teaching us that “right standing with God” is acheieved in the organization/church. This bait is so appealing it causes people to no notice several things. For instance, they learn to ignore others around them who point out that they are neglected or mistrated. They overlook it when they grow more tired over time. THey ignore the fact that people close to them are leaving or urging them to leave. THey are oblivious to how it is becoming easier to justify the things that not so long ago they abhorred. Other baits are the approval of people, religious status or position, a paycheck, a promise that things will improve, etc. These people also ignore the fact that theri goals keep moving out of reach. This reveals the aspect of a good trap. If they want to stop struggling out of exhaustion, frsutration, etc. a voice within “warns” them “WHy give up now when you were just about to have a breakthrough – look at all the time you’ve already invested.”
This introduces the concept of “equity rescuing” – when people do this with a house, we call the concept a “money pit”. The endless home-improvement system. Equity rescuing also occurs in abusive/controlling relationships. In an abusive situation, people are mistrated either physically, spiritually, sexually, or emotionally..and we can all agree this is not normal. With each subsequent “abuse” we move farther and farther away from normal..and eventually, end up very far away.
You may be aware the situation is not normal, so oyu set up boundaries and say “What happened was wrong, no more! From now on if such and such happens, then I will leave!” It happens again, but for you to walk away from the situation at this point you feel as if you’ve been abused for nothing. So oyu try a little more, invest a little more of yourself. More serious abuse occurs, so you set up another boundary. The situation keps getting farther away from normal each adjutment you make. Outsiders looking in see the obvious dangers- but we cannot ourselves because our baseline of comparison each time an abuse occurs is the last adjustment we made, not what is actually “normal”..
Stein, I hope that makes some sense and you will really take the time to ask yourself why you are staying. I’m not trying to tell you what to do of course, but often our view of normal is way off. Take time to get back to the REAL baseline – God’s Word. Start looking at the fruit of people’s lives and ask yourself who is glorifying God, according to Scripture, not according to a man-detemrined standard.
I’ll be praying for you. Remember, the fruit of the Spirit is, peace, patience, kindness, self-control…are you seeing these exhibited in leadership? In the couples in question? Who is manifesting the flesh, who is manifesting the Spirit? Simple as that.
January 13th, 2009 at 12:33 pm
Grieved but Hopeful,
Welcome! Thank you so much for your post.
There are people who believe that there is no hope after leaving SGM. I was one of them.
You can’t imagine how important your words are at this point.
January 13th, 2009 at 1:00 pm
Misled- I tried to email you at misledathotmail.com and it came back undeliverable. You can email me at hmsklmommyof3 at yahoo.com.
I have to admit that I was not always hopeful. There were several years after leaving SGM that hopeless would have been more fitting for me. God was so tender and faithful to me during this time. We had a couple who was several steps ahead of us in the journey of leaving and that was so important. I remember meeting with them monthly and just talking for hours. It was so good to have people who had been there and experienced it. I really believed that God used them to keep me sane. There were so many times when I questioned my sanity during leaving. There are still times to this day that I have to battle with not being hopeless. You see we now have adult (18yrs, 20yrs) children and we are just now seeing the unfortunate affects SGM has had on them. We all had such a warped view of the gospel. This past year or so we have just been soaking ourselves in teaching on the grace of God. That has been extremely helpful. I would highly recommend that people get their hands on anything that Terry Virgo has written or taught concerning grace.
Just today God reminded me that the day we were sent out by the Chesapeake church was the same day that the now senior pastor was sent out to the pastors college. I remember standing there struggling because I truly believed that that is where we were supposed to be going. Just this morning, I once again become overwhelmed and filled with joy that God did not give me what I thought I wanted!!!
January 13th, 2009 at 2:22 pm
Grieved but hopeful, I can really relate to your story. Thankfully our oldest child was only 4 when we left so hopefully the effect on the kids will be minimal (though they still have to deal with any residual effects the legalism has with us). Also diddo on the grace stuff! Terry Virgo was our intro shortly after leaving SGM, and then we started listening to many other great grace preachers and reading books, and well, finally reading and understanding the Gospel through Scripture! This literally saved our lives, our marriage, and family and God has used it to also let us help others through.
If you like Terry you might also like to check out Rob Rufus, Joseph Prince, Bertie Brits, Steve McVey (just a few we like). If you go to my blog you should be able to find links to all of these guys, some of them have free messages available, some not so much, also many of them are on youtube or gracestream internet tv channel (also on my blog).
Your testimony is so encouraging, thanks for sharing!
January 13th, 2009 at 3:58 pm
Julie-actually I went to your blog sometime last year(after seeing it on SG survivors and that is actually how I was reminded of Terry Virgo. So God used you to lead me to the teachings on grace. I have also listened to some of Rob Rufus’s teaching.
January 13th, 2009 at 4:13 pm
Grieved BUt Hopeful,
I’d like to recommend reading Hebrews and Galatians for those who suffered with legalism and a wrong understanding of grace- I recommend the Bible alone, because in SGM enough books and pastors are recommended to leave our heads swimming, and that was part of the problem – we started listening to MEN more and God less.. I know you have been out of SGM for a while, but I guess I am writing this for the benefit of others.
So to those out there still in, about to leave, or recently left – saturate yourself in the Word of God alone- best counsel I ever received and followed. Otherwise, because we are so messed up doctrinally, you can fall for all sorts of other false teachings – because you’ve been hurt, deceived, confused, manipulated, had Scripture twisted, etc. And we’re at risk of being back in bondage and deception, just in another way. Keep yourselves from idols John warned us. We would do well to listen.
January 13th, 2009 at 4:21 pm
let me give some possible examples of the imbalance that can (but certainly not always) occur for some who have left controlling, abusive, legalistic churches:
~extreme focus on indwelling sin? at risk for becoming an antinomian
~lack of joy as a result of legalism? at risk for “prosperity gospel”
~lack of love for church, Body of Christ, general distrust? at risk for emergent movement
~extreme focus on the law? At risk for focusing solely on grace, abusing grace, antinomianism.
~Focused only on God’s sovereignty? At risk for minimizing it now, and emphasizing human responsibility.
~overemphasis on intellectualism? at risk for emotionalism.
~too much dependence on the church and Body of Christ – to the point that you could not make decisions apart from them? At risk for becoming isolated and rebellious, or not seeing need for acountability.
Have you guys noticed the SAME accusations we get for leaving or in response to “what bothers us” about SGM actually do contain an element of truth in many cases? It was just twisted to their benefit, and subtracted from Scripture. Sometimes, what is said is good, but in the absence of what is NOT said, it becomes dangerous.
So in all things, balance. Avoid extremes. (Proverbs)
January 13th, 2009 at 7:40 pm
I don’t particularly care about remaining anonymous, but for the sake of the folks in Chesapeake I will refrain from posting my identity. (It’s easy enough to find out via email if you’re really curious.) I’ve been away from Virginia Beach for quite some time, but I’m sure I must know Bucky and the gang. I just want to encourage you all about something. We were visiting Chesapeake a couple of months ago, and while we were there we stopped by and prayed with one of the families (one of the “three” who were accused of accusing). This was a very powerful time of prayer during which the Lord assured me that He had raised up intercessors across the country to cover this denomination and its failures and that He has already prepared a place of safety and support for all of you. This moment did NOT take Him by surprise. He has either prepared new places of worship for you or He has a plan of transformation for this denomination. I have to say that after knowing this family for 12 or so years and praying with them when we were there at Thanksgiving, if ANYONE can stand their ground and stand on the Word of God and face off (for lack of a godly term for it) with CJ Mahaney regarding the deep issues of God, it is this couple. Who knows? Perhaps they were brought to SGM for such a time as this. Time will tell.
Meanwhile, I want you to know that we pray for you each and every day and especially on Wed. nights at our home group meetings in the town where I know live. You have not been forgotten. I have prayed for you all for almost ten years now, ever since we left. I have reconciled with many people from SGM. The Lord has strategically placed them in my city “sovereignly” and sometimes I think He did it just so that we could reconcile and be in fellowship again and so that I could heal once and for all.
Many have suffered and are ragged and worn. We are here to lift you up. If you have any specific prayer needs, please feel free to email me at creativepowerhouse@gmail.com. But meanwhile, know that I and many others across the country are praying for you!!
Also, if you’d like recommendations, I have visited just about every church in your area. We were loved and counseled by the Vineyard in Chesapeake, especially. Feel free to drop in there at 10 am on a Sunday and cry your eyes out. They will pray for you and love you back to life. I’m sure Eric Watt over at Greenbrier Church would offer you help, too. And Bob Fox who I think works at Operation Blessing over at CBN. He used to be a pastor at KPC. Robin and Cathy Tull would also be happy to pray with you, I’m sure. They were precious to us when we left way back when. Meanwhile, hold your heads high. You have done nothing wrong. The Lord will bring correction where hearts are soft enough to receive it and if that ends up not being possible, He will bring you through!
God bless you, Chesapeake SGM-ers. Drop me an email and let me know how I can help.
January 13th, 2009 at 7:42 pm
Well, so much for remaining anonymous. I can’t figure out how my photo got on there… If someone could tell me, I’d be happy to remove it.
January 13th, 2009 at 7:50 pm
Freedom FIgher – lol – I was wondering about your photo – I mean, sometimes people use their real names (as I do) but few post their pictures! All is well sister. Probably you had linked your picture to a Facebook, Yahoo, or global sign in? But it is attached either to your name or your email address. So, check both if you want to remove it.
So encouraged by YOUR encouragement of our brother and sisters in Chesapeake..how wonderful that would have been to know when I left, that there was someone “waiting” on the outside to help, pray with me, and give names of others who whould. You have truly blessed the Body there by your willingness to post..thank you! Sometimes from here (Texas) I feel there is nothing I can do, and I pray. I wish I was closer, wish I went to that church, and could encourage the brothers and sisters there, but you know what? I can’t even do that HERE! I have no opportunity anymore. Unless the Lord opens a door that is..
thanks again sister! LOVE your name!!
January 13th, 2009 at 7:51 pm
Freedom fighter-
It’s a gravatar connected to your email address. Let me know if you want me to remove your posts, and you can repost with another email address.
I can’t take the gravatar down-I can only delete your post.
If you want it down, please send me an email to jim@sgmrefuge.com so I’ll hear the “ding”.
January 13th, 2009 at 7:52 pm
I just stuck your comments in moderation. let me know if you want them back up, or you can re-post, using a different email address.
January 13th, 2009 at 8:17 pm
It’s okay. I tried to remove the photo at google and it’s more trouble than it’s worth. I’m here. If you knew me, you recognize me. No big deal. Just remember we love you all and are praying for reconciliation, restoration, recovery, and redemption!!!!!
: )
January 13th, 2009 at 9:44 pm
Juli, I agree that we should saturate ourselves in God’s word, but faith come by hearing the word of God and I would not minimize the power of the preached gospel. Now if that gospel you’re listening to isn’t THE gospel but another gospel, then don’t listen to it! I personally benefitted so much from good preaching, still do. But I no longer idolize the preachers but recognize them as human, of course humble men make this easy to do!
January 13th, 2009 at 9:55 pm
Back on because I just cant stay away. My famiy has been involved with goings-on in Chesapeake for quite some time. THere has been a small circle of prayer warriors meeting via phone and emails…praying for the last few years. One of the women in this small prayer group is one of the ladies the “3 Couples” stood by and stood up for. I have known about stuff starting last December and have been praying more so since then.
And dont forget to pray for me as i continue to walk through steps of meeting with my old pastor to “lovingly go to my brother”…I appreciate you all…and yes Freedom Fighter, I remember you in VA…my oldest sister always remarked on how beautiful and eupropean you looked 
I am going to email you when done here…:-)
as to how to continue…please continue to pray tha god would lead me!
Because I know ALL the couples invovled and two of the PAstors, this has beeen hard for me to swallow-but then again, not. My own expereince from my last church opened my eyes. It is so SHAMING how these couples who were raised high in the church-have been heavily leaned on by sgm and Sovereign Grace Church, are now being portrayed as “sinners in need of repentance”…SHAMEFUL! There has been some repentance(by the pastors), but the severity of the issues has been, in my opinion and others, greatly missed by SGM. So sad as these people, these people who tried to ignore the Spirit and knowing truth to be “safe”, could no longer sleep and made the difficult decision to obey their God and try to reach their pastors whom they love. One couple in paticular are dying a very slow and painful death…PLease everyone, please pray for this specifc couple. My heart breaks for them and their family. Remember…GOd led them into this, they did not go looking-who would? Who would when your world appears safe and good and easy to live in….why in the world would you go “looking”?! So sad as people just dont even want to hear the truth…even more sad that over a year ago I was one of them….just so sad. I cry out for mercy over SGM…I love SGM and know that God uses EVERYTHING for our good and His name will not be mocked. Yes, this church is being ripped apart, but in my opinion it will not last long as it will be easy to “sweep under the rug of God is in control and I am going to trust him”…you never ask questions this way and it is safe….I always said I was trustiing God, but in reality I was a robot pushing away the voice of the Holy SPirit….I was so blind….so let us join together in prayer…for God to open eyes and ears…that discernment would reign in this church…that people would WAKE up!
How grievous this is. And how sad that these people in the trenches, who over more than 6 MONTHS, met with pastors, pleaded with Pastors, brought witnesses…went through the whole process and yet people are being told there was no process and the demands “came out of no where”….how sad this is what the pastors believe and what they are telling. How sick that the letter that followed the Senior pastor was another letter from the Financial Team for the church, condoning the pastors words and saying they were at a meeting and didnt hear anything “wrong” but saw “Wrong” in the people who had the concerns….How sick that the letter from the pastor invited “all questions” about what was happening and then at this meeting, atleast two men raised their hand to ask questions and were told this wasnt the time or the place…EXCUSE ME? Then when is the appropriate time?? Oh yeah, how about one on one when others cant hear your questions and I can answer them in a twisted truth without being held accountable…how about then…SHEESH people?! OPEN YOUR EYES!!!!!! Really guys, we MUST come together and pray for this band of brothers who are in the trenches together, fighting a spiritual war, fighting for truth and fighting for their pastors because they love them…not against. I am sick of all the behind doors stuff and SGM pastors and Apostaollic team just trusting that everything is at it should be, right as rain and there are no questions. How sad that going to the pastors over and over again, and trying to involve the Apostollic team just to be told, your pastor can handle it, go back to him….not even being heard…not even questioning the pastor…but just assuming everything is being handled correctly with discernment. SGM has blocked out the Spirit, WE have been spiritually DEAD and now…slowly but surely…the Spirit is opening eyes! Isnt He good??? Even though we tried to shut him out, In His kindness he is stirring us! How wonderful that the Teacher has come back to us. Yeah GOD!
Woooo…didnt mean to write a book, but just kept coming and coming. And Jim if anyone wants to email me-go ahead and dish them my email
And Juli…thank you for your encouragement to me…I have been in the word and continue to wrestle. I believe I have heard from god and have a new fire lit under my butt
All by His Love and Grace,
Journey Girl
January 13th, 2009 at 10:08 pm
This gets more confusing by the minute. I think later tonight, I’m going to sit down and read this thread from the beginning. It seems like bits and pieces of this story have been told here, but the entire story is hard to figure out.
I don’t think anybody wants to really tell the whole thing till after the big meeting with CJ.
But why, then, tell parts and make it more confusing for those of us who are trying to understand.
Thanks.
January 13th, 2009 at 10:29 pm
Just an observation (from experience!)… if the truth does not come out about what’s going on at Chesapeake before CJ comes to town and has his meeting… well, it just may be too late. In delaying truth, it gives the pastors and the SGM leaders time to put their “spin” on the truth and make these families look like liars. Then who will the Chesapeake folks believe? CJ (the pope) or these families, whose reputations will be totally trashed at this meeting… (if their not already)? Especially since most members of SGM churches not only have stars in their eyes regarding their leaders, but they are never told the real story, the truth. They are kept in the dark… intentionally! SGM leaders are masters of manipulation and CYA.
I’m not looking for the “scoop”… I don’t need nor do I want to be on the “inside”… but I DO want to see God’s Truth prevail and see His hand working in this situation. I DO want to see SGM have to admit their sin and shortcomings and the horrendous hurt and confusion they’ve caused in many, many lives because of their unbiblical tactics.
Having said that, and someone wants to step up to the plate, so to speak, there are many of us here, with our arms open wide, to pray for you, to stand beside you, to love you… we’ve been where you are… and we don’t want to see one more person suffer at the hands of SGM and it’s “family of churches”.
If you don’t want to post it directly to The Refuge, send me or Jim an email… Carole@SGMRefuge.com or Jim@SGMRefuge.com.
January 13th, 2009 at 10:39 pm
Journeygirl – way to let loose!!!!!!!! I know how you feel, I invested a numbers of years at the Chesapeake church and probably know the 3 couples whose reputation seems to have been trashed. My prayers are with the members of the church that those in bondage would break free. It’s weird to read your emails and your story and see you all grown up – I left in 94, so you can figure out the age you where when I last saw you. It makes me feel old – lol!!!! (And I have a 6 year old and a 4 year old, so my kids make me feel younger!!). I hope all is well with you in your journey, Girl!!! (pun intended!!!) and you are in my prayers. It just ticks me off how anytime you disagree with the leadership, you are in some sort of “sin” – way, way too many acts are labled as “sin” when they are not….
Freedom Fighter – I’m trying to place your face with a name and it’s driving me crazy (lol!). I sent you an email….
I really hope and pray that eyes are opened. This does not need to be another thing swept under the rug by the leadership of the Chesapeake church – I only know what is posted here, but I can confirm that tons of stuff was swept under the rug when I attended from 88 – 94.
January 14th, 2009 at 1:34 am
Hey all,
Sorry I’ve been absent for so long…I have a little bit of a school break, so I thought I’d “pop in” and say hi.
Chesapeake folks: my prayers are with you! I just got caught up on the posts here, and regardless of the specifics of the situation, my heart goes out to you. I know what you are going through, and how incredibly painful it is. If any of you need a friend/prayer partner, my wife and I would love to be there for you. Jim has my email address if you want to drop a line.
I know what it’s like to be the subject of SGM semantics games…I have an amusing/disheartening follow-up to my story from earlier. In November, some friends still in my old SGM church went to the pastors and asked that they make things right with us. After a year of having my attempts at communication mostly ignored, I got a phone call from the assistant pastor, who claims that (Jim, you’ll love this) they just found Jim’s email to them re: my story buried deep in their junkmail folder. I declined to point out that gmail has no junkmail folder…
Here’s a great (only slightly paraphrased) excerpt from the convo:
“Ryan, we’re concerned because the post on the blog is filled with lies.”
“OK, can you point some of those lies out to me?”
“Well…I er, for one thing, you said you were a pastoral intern!”
“Come again?”
“You were never a pastoral intern, just a regular intern”
“I see…and what’s the difference?”
“A pastoral intern is definitely going to the PC. You were just maybe going to the PC. Everyone knows the difference.”
Clever, isn’t he? He followed it up with a threat to have another meeeeeTing about us. ‘Cause, they have a church body to protect, you know. Whether in VA or FL, the tactics are the same.
Don’t lose faith in God’s goodness!
Ryan (exintern)
January 14th, 2009 at 2:53 am
exintern-
Oh my gosh-the insanity of it all….just makes you laugh at how silly they sound. They sound like 4th graders arguing over a kickball incident. How immature-
Folks in Chesapeake-I’ll pray-but be forewarned-the sort of wordsmithing that exintern is talking about is SG’s mode of squelching questions….
I would tape record the whole meeting so that you know exactly what was said and you can prove it after the “official” story hits the church-just my 2 cents…
peace to you all-mm
January 14th, 2009 at 4:01 am
EX-good to see you.
With your situation, all they have to do is send me a recording of the family meeting.
I’ll tell the truth, no matter what it is.
January 14th, 2009 at 8:35 am
I used to be a “Party Follower.” (pretty much prior to this upheaval) However, many like me now feel like we no longer will be silent. I have voiced my concerns, opinions, as well as pure saddness to the pastors, and have gotten little back from them of genuine “REAL” compassion and concern. It does, however, appear they are concerned. I would too, if my church was splitting at the seems, as ours definitely appears to be. There is agreat deal of contention among the flock, brought on by the fact that many do not know what is really going on, and I, myself, just recently found out the BIG STORY, and it is much bigger than I know people think, and a whole lot more serious. These pastors perpetrated major sin in the areas of manipulation of doctrine to meet their own very narrow views, and it has hurt many pople, mostly women. The “3″ couples points must be heard. I have a word for the SGC pastors: AT THIS MEETING ON JAN 25, THE TRUTH MUST COME OUT!
January 14th, 2009 at 8:35 am
Ryan, it’s a good thing you didn’t call yourself ex pastoral intern! Imagine the evil of it! talk about the pot calling the kettle black.
January 14th, 2009 at 9:12 am
Long Sufferer,
I’m so sorry this is happening to you and the other members of Chesapeake. We are praying for you all… stand strong in what is right and true, as God is made strong in Truth!
January 14th, 2009 at 9:41 am
Journey Girl,
You have broken loose, girl! Be assured we will be praying, especially for the 3 couples (and the one in particular you mentioned) and for the meeting on the 25th. It is exciting to hear that there is a group of prayer warriors there locally already on the job!
Long Sufferer,
I’m sorry for your “pure sadness”. I remember that feeling well. Others have gone before you. The Atlanta SGM church went through a church split back in its early years, with half the church staying with SGM and half starting a nondenominational church. Hoping for a better outcome in your case- that Truth will be seen and embraced by all parties involved and there will be real change within SGM. Praying to that end…
January 14th, 2009 at 10:24 am
Thank you Juli. Although I do have a physical investment in the church, I count it as nothing compared to the relationships I hold dear within the church. The people in SGC Chesapeake, are simply the most wonderful people I have ever had the privilege of knowing. If it were not for the people of SGC it would be easy to bail, but they are to precious to our family. I am on my face praying that there will be genuine humility and change. I can tell you most certainly that the Holy Spirit is moving in some incredible ways, and many of you are seeing it. I tell you this church is being awakened.
January 14th, 2009 at 10:26 am
Stein,
Can you share some of the ways that God is moving @ Chesapeake?
January 14th, 2009 at 10:48 am
Yes, Stein, please do share! I know a little bit about what’s happened and how the Holy Spirit has shown up during the meetings, but I would love to hear more. God loves you all so much! What a privilege it is to see the fruit of my prayers! I literally had to pinch myself at first. I was so honored that the Lord brought us back to see the work He has been doing in the tender hearts of His precious saints. Thanks in advance for sharing! And now I’m so curious about who you all are. I wish you’d email me!!
January 14th, 2009 at 3:32 pm
Welcome Freedom Fighter, Long Sufferer, This is Not Fun, & Grieved but Hopeful, (Hope I didn’t miss anyone!!), and good to see you again, Ryan and Journey Girl!
I’m praying along with you all who want to see the Truth come out. Holy Spirit, do your work. Father, let justice prevail. Thank you, Jesus, that you care for the broken-hearted and are our Advocate.
January 14th, 2009 at 4:45 pm
From what I observed on Sunday, the Holy Spirit was moving. However, it was moving through members of the body who, many of which, as I heard, received much of it from attending another church. It was not coming from SGC, but going out to it. It was certainly a breath of fresh air. Though it did not seem to be eminating from the SGC Pastors (except for one, our newest pastor, Kirk, who is older and and from my interaction with him, a whole lot more mature than the rest of the pastors on staff, including our Sr. pastor, Keith). So yes, it was encouraging, but I remain very suspect of the movement of the Spirit among our leaders, who, if it does not move among them, will only be present as long as these individuals find a different venue to pursue Him. The change needs to spring forth from those on the top.
That being said, I believe that it is miraculous evidence that the Holy Spirit will not be quenched (even by the pastors at SGC)!
January 14th, 2009 at 5:07 pm
Okay, now I’m really curious. I know who Grieved but Hopeful is cuz we spoke on the phone yesterday, but the rest of you I can’t place and it’s making me crazy!!
If you have a minute, drop me a line, okay?
Creativepowerhouse@gmail.com
Meanwhile, we will be praying again for you all tonight at home group!!! God’s richest blessings on you as you move forward, and remember, change is not always a bad thing. New things can be beautiful — and you can ALL move forward together somewhere else if you have to leave. Sometimes that’s how the fragrance of Christ is expressed — by crushing, but also by moving the flowers elsewhere within the body.
January 14th, 2009 at 5:27 pm
Totally random question: Long Sufferer–you refer to the Holy Spirit as ‘it.’ I don’t understand that. Could you clarify?
Thanks!
January 14th, 2009 at 7:24 pm
Julie, I guess my concern is that at one time I thought all of SGM pastors were humble too. I just think it is wise to minimize the teachings of man until you are REALLY grounded in the Word and have untwisted what SGM twisted, and this takes some time, not weeks or months simply.
I left a church before finding SGM and fell into deception and that caused me to compromise with SGM in so many areas - and it (false teachings and deception) ALWAYS come through the teachings of MEN, their books, etc. Just sayin…we gotta be careful, esp since leaving SGM. We open ourselves up to other things..even another gospel being preached, if we are not careful.
January 14th, 2009 at 7:38 pm
So glad to hear the Holy Spirit is moving at Chesapeake..many are praying for the believers there – please keep us posted!
I am encouraged that so many of you are having a “mini reunion” on this blog – small world, eh? I wish so often that others from my former church were reading and commenting on the blogs , but the Spirit is not working as obviously there as at Chespapeake – the blogs are still “off limits” and nobody talks about them and everyone is still shunning me.
All in God’s timing. So until He moves in every SGM church, I am wathcing enxiously to see how things pan out at an older more established church with very close apostolic ties and oversight – not that we don’t have that oversight here, it’s just that the apostle is in Dallas (Frisco) and that is over 5 hours away. He doesn’t visit that much. People know who he is, but still, the church is out of the main SGM loop still being so new and so far removed from other churches. This is good in that all the policies and teachings are coming slowly..BUT, it is bad in that it’s like being a frog in a pot being heated, slow compromises and changes nobody notices..
and then, ribbit - you’re cooked.
January 15th, 2009 at 1:15 am
Jim,
“With your situation, all they have to do is send me a recording of the family meeting.
I’ll tell the truth, no matter what it is.”
And that’s precisely why they will never send you the recording
Stein,
I’m sure this has been said elsewhere, and that it was said more coherently and intelligently than I’m about to say it, but: just because the Holy Spirit is moving doesn’t mean God approves of what’s going on. I experienced some really powerful moves of the Spirit in my time with SGM, but you know what? That doesn’t make the lies, the manipulation, etc. right. Our God loves us so much that He will never abandon us, even if we’re in an awful church situation. I mean, I’ve known people who experienced wonderful moves of the Spirit at Roman Catholic churches, but you won’t catch me saying the Rosary any time soon. We’re still called to hold up conduct, and particularly that of the leaders, to the Biblical standard to see if it matches up. Our God is powerful enough to take what is intended for evil and use it for good, but He doesn’t excuse the evil.
God blessed me during my time with SGM, He really did. I grew in my walk with the Lord, I met the beautiful, godly, intelligent woman who was to become my wife, and I experienced great fellowship with wonderful people, a very few of whom still see fit to call me a friend despite my “blacklisted” status. But I couldn’t in good conscience stay.
There’s was one Sunday, shortly before I resigned membership, when the offering bag was being passed around, and I couldn’t bring myself to put my tithe in. I just thought, “with what I know of what’s happening here, and what I know of the way finances are used in this church, I couldn’t look my wife in the eye and say ‘yeah, we’re giving to this church because I think it’s the right thing to do, and I support what’s happening here. This is a wise use of the resources God has commanded us to use to further His kingdom’ “. And I personally think that when you can’t bring yourself to give to a church in good conscience, you oughta be looking for another church, no matter how much the Spirit is moving or how much good fellowship you have there.
January 15th, 2009 at 4:46 pm
Thanks Long Sufferer for highlighting some of the moving of the Holy Spir-IT.
Last Sunday we had a flash of Pentecostal Holiness in the house. Jim & Freedom Fighter. In 10 years I’ve not heard that many people speaking in tongues at one time. In fact it has been a rarity in our church until recently. Another woman in the church whom I’ve known for years and is usually pretty subdued was moved by the spirit running up and down the isles screaming for people to repent, and serve God.
More people are coming up to the mic and giving words from the Lord. Personally I feel the peace of God in all this like I’ve never felt before. I should and would expect that I be anxious but thank God for his peace. Thanks again Esther for sharing your story
January 15th, 2009 at 4:56 pm
SMB – hopefully the woman screaming repent was speaking to the leadership at the Chesapeake church.
I am glad to hear God is moving at the Chesapeake church, but I would SERIOUSLY question the words spoken from the prophecy mic. The words that are spoken through the mic are carefully controlled by the pastors – no one speaks on the mic unless what they have to say is OK’d by the mic gatekeeper.
January 15th, 2009 at 6:35 pm
Stein – You said: “Another woman in the church whom I’ve known for years and is usually pretty subdued…”
Usually pretty subdued??? I don’t know one other person who knows her that would use the word ’subdued’ when speaking of her, even with the word ‘pretty’ placed before it. Just wondering why you thought to specifically say this about her.
I know for certain she has ”held back” her promptings of the Holy Spirit for a long time. I’m glad she finally decided to give in to Him, and ignore the Sovereign Grace ”way” of doing church – nice and quiet.
Misled
January 15th, 2009 at 10:30 pm
Stein–
Wow.
The Holy Spir-IT.
You don’t quake in your boots mocking the third member of the Godhead like that? I tremble for you when I read that. The arrogance is unbelievable.
The One who hovered over the waters at Creation? The One who brings to our minds what we need for godliness?
You seriously think He is an IT?
I am simply outraged. You think that because people speak in tongues that the Holy Spirit is ‘moving?’ You don’t think He is moving if you don’t literally hear things? Good gracious. Grow up.
January 15th, 2009 at 11:26 pm
Posted on Ester’s Story….
WOW! That’s a story. God is always good. He is good to Ester and her children. We must praise him that he kept them safe.
Kudos to the 3 couples that got involved. They have my respect.
Stevieboy/Steven: When Ester needed the housing yet the OWNER of the property had to ask the Pastors?? Sad but true. It is sick to think that when I would bless someone, my CGL actually said I needed to ask him FIRST because he had first hand knowledge of everyones financial situations and knew how people spent their money. He said “maybe the Lord is putting them thru a finacial trial and here you come to bail ‘em out. I think you need to let the Lord work on them.” So I guess when the holy spirit lead me to give to someone, I had to stop and say, well let me ask my CGL????
Well seeing how the Pastors appolgized to Ester, what about the other “8″ accusations or as the Pastors would call it: OBSERVATIONS!!!!! I guess it is an observation when they are talking to you but it is an accusation when it’s to THEM!!
Only time will tell….looking forward to the meeTing in Ches on the 25th!!!!
Then I wrote back and said….Would someone that was there explain how the Holy Spirit was moving in SGC in Ches. I heard (as I was not there) that she was running around the Place hooping and holering that we won the basketball game……………
January 16th, 2009 at 12:04 am
Misled, ……that is my point exactly, not that she was bound up by church law but that she obeyed the Spirit in spite of the typical SGC conduct. Just one of the examples of how I believed the Spirit is moving in the church. It wasn’t meant in a negative connotation. Maybe ‘reserved’ would have been a better word.?
sub-dued
–adjective
1.
quiet; inhibited; repressed; controlled: After the argument he was much more subdued.
2.
lowered in intensity or strength; reduced in fullness of tone, as a color or voice; muted:
ReformedTeacher No one is mocking the ‘Holy Spirit’, it was simply a pun in response to the comment you made to Long Sufferer.
I wouldn’t dare mock God.
On another note, I notice that one could post something in a positive light and its amazing how some people will always find something negative within it. The glass isn’t always half empty, and having a positive attitude doesn’t always mean you’re party loyalist.
January 16th, 2009 at 12:32 am
Stein,
you said “I’ve not heard that many people speaking in tongues at one time. In fact it has been a rarity in our church until recently.”
I’m curious – Why would you assume this scene was evidence of the Holy Spirit moving? I ask because where the Spirit of God is, there is ORDER, and God is glorified, and what you described happening was not only unorderly, but unbiblical. Was there an interpretor(s) present? We are clearly given the guidelines for speaking in tongues and prophesying, and it is each in turn, and in order, at ONE at a time..
I’m curious – did this happen at the prophecy mic or spontaneously? How did the pastors react to these outbursts? I don’t know what would toruble me more, if they DIDN’T get upset or if they DID. Both don’t bode so well…
Reformed Teacher, I know your personal beliefs regarding this, BUT, would you think that this type of manifestation was indeed the Holy Spirit, even IF you believed in the gifting for today?
(I don’t want to segue into a cessationists vs. charismatics discussion..I’m just curious from the perspective of a cessasionist, how this scene would be interpreted, if you WERE not a cessationist – because I’m of the belief that (as a charismatic) that is WAY out of control…Pentacostal was the right word indeed Stein!
But with this all in mind, I find it HIGHLY interesting that now, of all times, this type of “behavior” suddenly; begins…anyone else find this interesting?
January 16th, 2009 at 1:13 am
Wow. Interesting. In the book of Acts, the Holy Spirit fell on the people and they ALL spoke in other tongues at the same time. I think it’s a little dangerous — especially at this point in time when hearts are so wounded and scarred — to start criticizing a move of the Spirit within Sov. Grace Chesapeake. When God breaks through and breaks people out of the spiritual darkness they’ve been struggling under for so long, it’s common for there to be groanings that cannot be uttered. Speaking of Pentacostalism as if it’s a bad thing to be isn’t so nurturing either.
I am not a Pentacostal. The church I now attend is charismatic, though, and was planted by missionaries who came from the UK to America to help reach the lost and hurting in my city. I think it’s counterproductive to question whether the Holy Spirit baptism/release that has been going on is real or not. I’m glad to see it. Reminds me of that Celebration in ‘96 or whenever it was — just after the Toronto Blessing hit — when my dear friend CB was worshipping with another friend. Both men. Crying and being loved by Jesus. Holding one another up and tears of joy streaming down their faces. SGM is a charismatic reformed denomination (or maybe I should say was?). So if this forum is a safe refuge for people coming out of SGM, I would think they should feel free to talk about charismatic phenomena without impunity.
We had a great night of prayer last night about the situation in Chesapeake. We prayed for specific people and felt the Lord assuring us of two things:
a) There is a wide open door. WIDE OPEN. I don’t know exactly what the Lord meant when He gave us that word — wide open to CJ’s heart on the 25th or wide open to walk out and leave the church. My sense was that it was a divine opportunity, a divine appointment. That God is after the hearts of His people. He wants them freed from legalism and the bondage to a focus on their own depravity rather than a focus on Jesus and a victorious walk.
b) The second thing that we felt God was saying to us is that the people of SG Chesapeake (and probably this was also for the entire denomination) have been dealing with a tremendous amount of shame, placed squarely on them by the pastors and doctrine of the church. I don’t believe any of the pastors set out to do this — it’s just a byproduct of how they do business. The members of the church feel they are unworthy, not good enough for God to love them as they are, ashamed of their unworthiness, ashamed of their sin, ashamed that they haven’t managed to become as perfect as so and so or as humble as so and so or whatever the sin area may be. Ashamed they don’t pray enough and ashamed of their depravity. Just totally and completely filled with shame instead of those rivers of living water that we’re supposed to be filled with. And when this word came forth from my friend it was really odd. And you have to have been a member of the Ches. church for a very long time to remember this. My friend who was praying last night does not know the church or the situation nor has he ever been there. But he saw a picture that he felt was from the Lord of these people sitting in church covered with shame and they were wearing shame like a toupee on their heads. He felt the Lord wanted them to allow Him to blow over them with the wind of the Holy Spirit and blow the toupees of shame right off their heads. My friend spoke of this moment as if he saw a man grab his toupee and yank it off his head, abandoning his shame. Instantly, I thought of one particular service back in the ’90s during which a friend of ours at the Ches. church (then in Va. Beach) was onstage on the worship team and suddenly grabbed the toupee off his own head and began twirling it around in the air, surrendering it to God. It was such a strange thing to have happened during the service and it correlated so perfectly with what my friend was seeing. When I said this to my friend, my husband jumped out of his chair and said, “Yes! I remember that!” All that to say, we really believe you all in Chesapeake are going to be freed from this feeling that you don’t measure up or are unworthy of God’s love just as you are. NO MORE SHAME!!
I’m very longwinded, so I’ll stop now. I’ve heard from a couple of you, but I’d love to know who’s who on here… Or maybe I’ve been gone so long that you don’t remember me or didn’t know me. That’s okay. God bless you all!!!
January 16th, 2009 at 1:54 am
Freedom Fighter,
I didn’t mean to offend anyone of course, and if I did I certainly apologize. I find it interesting that this type of thing has not happened in a long time, and that the first assumption is that it is the Holy Spirit working..I wasn’t there obviously. Stein may have left some details out – I’m sure he did. But just going on what he said, I stand by the Biblical guidelines for that sort of situation – an interpretor MUST be present. If you remember, at Pentcost, as you brought up, many people WERE indeed speaking in tongues at the same time, but these were tongues that were understood by those around in their own languages. Now unless these “many” who were speaking in tongues at Chesapeake were speaking Spanish (or another known language) for the benefit of those non-English speaking visitors that day, there should have been an interpretor present.
Stein never mentioned one, but perhaps there was one and this is all a moot point. I hope so. But if there was no interpretation available, there should be no tongues happening. Period. That is what the Bible teaches.
I have never doubted the Spirit was working in these prayer meetings, other meetings, care groups, etc…and I’ve been encouraged to hear many are praying consistently for the situation there. I think most people who “know” me here know the last thing I’d want to do is criticize a move of the Spirit or attribute His work as “not His word (which, by the way, is blasphemy of the Spirit, a very serious sin and one I don’t take lightly of course).
If it can be established the speaking in tongues WAS a move of the Spirit by the additional information that an interpretor was present (the event in question, not the prayer meetings, etc.) then I won’t question it as being of the Lord. Until then, I simply think we need to be reminded of what Scripture says on the subject, that is all.
Thanks for your encouragement of others there, despite being away.
January 16th, 2009 at 2:34 am
Yes, it’s tough not knowing the full story and not talking to one another in person. I wanted to share this scripture with you, Juli, just to clarify the different types of “tongues.” There are basically two. One is a tongue that is interpreted immediately after it’s spoken during a quiet moment in the worship time either by the person who spoke it or by another member of the congregation (decently and in order and rarely more than two or three at a time is advised by Paul). The second type is what happened at SG Ches. These are the prayers in tongues that God’s people bring forth when they don’t know what else to do or say — the groanings that cannot be uttered, so to speak. It’s what happens when we surrender our voices to God and allow Him to pray through us in other languages either corporately or in our private prayer times. These are the tongues that are given as a gift to people when they are baptized in the Holy Spirit.
From I Cor. 14:
1Follow the way of love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy. 2For anyone who speaks in a tongue[a] does not speak to men but to God. Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries with his spirit.[b] 3But everyone who prophesies speaks to men for their strengthening, encouragement and comfort. 4He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church. 5I would like every one of you to speak in tongues,[c] but I would rather have you prophesy. He who prophesies is greater than one who speaks in tongues,[d] unless he interprets, so that the church may be edified.
These verses are talking about prophecy, but within them you learn that tongues are not ALWAYS interpreted. Sometimes the gift of tongues is given to a person to speak to God, to utter mysteries, to edify himself. In order to edify the entire church, it would be better to prophesy, of course. But in the case of SG Ches., I’m encouraged that people were gathered together in one place and edifying themselves through the gift of tongues there together. I think it must have been a good thing. A positive step!!
January 16th, 2009 at 2:53 am
Good evening, all.
I am encouraged to read this discussion.
I have posted before, but it has been a while. I am a member of Grace Church, Frisco (Dallas) and know and am friends with many people who have been affiliated with SG Chesapeake (formerly Virginia Beach). The family who introduced me to SGM were members of the Virgina Beach church in the mid nineties.
I am praying that the Holy Spirit would continue to arrest hearts and that the winds of His mercy would continue to blow through that congregation. I know that sounds ultra charismatic, but I do believe in the active, visible, and tangible ministry of the Holy Spirit! May His comfort be experienced very tangibly by Esther, her family, and friends who have been going through such trials.
As I was reading these posts, I was reminded of my own journey…
I grew up around Pentecostal/Charismatic churches, but became caught up in the bondage and extreme legalism of Mormonism for just over four years throughout my teenage years. It was during the “Toronto Blessing” years that the Holy Spirit gripped my heart, and I was overcome with a firm knowledge of my sins being forgiven because of the shed blood of Jesus. During those years shortly after leaving Mormonism and in the midst of the Toronto Blessing, I experienced physical healing and waves of a renewal of the Holy Spirit that helped me stand firm in my faith in and love for Jesus, so that eventually I would escape the clutches of Mormonism altogether.
Now onto how I was introduced to SGM…
The Lord arranged for me to get to know a family from Grace Church outside of the church context before I was ever invited on a Sunday morning. This was how I was introduced to Sovereign Grace Ministries, and it was close to ten years after leaving Mormonism. A lot happened in those interim ten years, but when I hear about the moves of the Holy Spirit within PDI/Sovereign Grace in the mid-90s (when I was experiencing His presence in a powerful way), I am brought back to an awareness of the Lord’s faithfulness to lavish His bride with, dare I say it, an EXPERIENCE of His steadfast love. This experience crosses the borders of denominations, movements, and various gatherings of believers throughout the world. Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever. He is the same for Sovereign Gracers as he is for Pentecostals as he is for Presbyterians as he is for Baptists and for all whose hearts have been arrested by his Mercy and who profess Him as LORD.
I know that the Lord works all things for the good of those who love Him and are called according to His purpose. This promise is for Esther, and for all of us who are His bride. One day we will see Him face to face, and all this pain will be washed away as we worship Him for who He is.
I am grateful to be a part of God’s family and to have you guys as brothers and sisters regardless of the church you attend. I pray that the Lord would minister in a very pronounced way to those who are experiencing pain right now.
Jonathon
January 16th, 2009 at 8:47 am
Not to turn this into a cessationist vs continuist debate, but your interpretation of the speaking in tongues from 1 cor 14 leaves the next part out where he says there should be interpreters, than he said 4 intelligible words are better than 10000 unintelligible words. He says to desire gifts that build the church up instead of this. He is clearly rebuking them for the practice of saying stuff that no one understands. Now contrary to what it seems I am not necessarily a cessasionist, I just wish that the translation was more accurate and did not use the word tongues – instead used language – which is what the word means. I do believe there are/were gifts where people know and speak in languages like in acts when the holy spirit fell and they all heard it in their own language. I just find think that you are using a passage that is rebuking the church for unintelligible speaking to justify it. Where do you see that the unintelligible groanings so to speak can be done corporately. I think it is clearly stated that corporately, when languages are spoken they should be understood..
January 16th, 2009 at 9:16 am
Tongues as I saw it in SGC in Ches. Within the last year maybe 18 mos, This same woman after a service went up to the front with another woman. The service was breaking up and people were leaving so no one was sitting down. In fact the chairs were already starting to be put up. This woman was standing in front of our stage area to the left and started raising her hands and screaming and shouting in tongues. I just happened to be standing next to a Pastor and we were talking to a guest. Ok, I have to admit if I were a guest I would have been running to the door because I was a fairly new Christian at the time. I looked at the Pastor like a deer in the headlights and my eyes were as big as saucers. He excused himself, walked over there and made her stop. Both women at the time just stopped. The pastor came back and apologized to the visitors.
Like I said in an earlier post, she was running thru the isles praising God they won a basketball game. I heard the holy spirit was in her but not that she was speaking in tongues. That’s the version I heard. There were teenagers in the lobby in a circle praying in tongues as well.
January 16th, 2009 at 9:42 am
As you guess, I am on board with Juli and P. But like them, I am absolutely uninterested in opening a cessationist/continuist argument. Who really cares, since none of us are going to change our minds?
We need to be careful about context whenever we read the Bible, I love to pull random verses out and beat myself or others with it.
Context: At Pentecost, the disciples/apostles were given ‘other tongues’ in order to exponentially reach the world–in an international marketplace filled with traveling traders, what a genius plan: have the gospel preached in all their languages.
And what a comedic twist: the “interpreters” were the evangelized. God has a sense of humor. But make no mistake, at Pentecost, the evangelized people in that market square could understand exactly what the disciples were saying, since they were speaking languages known to them. These were not unknown tongues, so that example is not apropos to this discussion.
I do affirm that Scripture is true. I do affirm that Scripture speaks of unknown tongues. I do affirm that Scripture teaches that when one speaks in tongues in a public place, another interprets. I do affirm that Scripture teaches let everything be done in an orderly fashion.
“Brothers, do not be children in your thinking. Be infants in evil, but in your thinking be mature. In the Law it is written, ”By people of strange tongues and by the lips of foreigners will I speak to this people, and even then they will not listen to me, says the Lord.” Thus tongues are a sign not for believers but for unbelievers, while prophecy is a sign not for unbelievers but for believers. If, therefore, the whole church comes together and all speak in tongues, and outsiders or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are out of your minds? But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or outsider enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all, the secrets of his heart are disclosed, and so,falling on his face, he will worship God and declare that God is really among you.
What then, brothers? When you come together, each one has a hymn, a lesson, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation. Let all things be done for building up. If any speak in a tongue, let there be only two or at most three, and each in turn, and let someone interpret.
But if there is no one to interpret, let each of them keep silent in church and speak to himself and to God. Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others weigh what is said. If a revelation is made to another sitting there, let the first be silent. For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all be encouraged, and the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets. For God is not a God of confusion but of peace.
If anyone thinks that he is a prophet, or spiritual, he should acknowledge that the things I am writing to you are a command of the Lord. If anyone does not recognize this, he is not recognized. So, my brothers, earnestly desire to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues. But all things should be done decently and in order.” 1 Cor. 14
I know many sisters (mainly) that speak in tongues as a part of private worship, in praise and adoration to God. This is a wonderful blessing to them. I rejoice in this!
I am with Juli that order is part of worship. A woman running up and down screaming simply sounds bizarre to me. A congregation all speaking in tongues with no interpreter is never found in the Bible. Can you search God’s Word in the above passage and let me know where you find this? Where you find corporate tongues? Is God’s Word to be heeded, or not?
However, I don’t really care how your church worships, to tell you the truth. God is God, he does whatever he wills, praise him!
(random side note: why do you call your Sunday morning thing a “meeting’ instead of ‘worship?’ I have wondered about that. I could be wrong about that, but that is what all my students and friends here call it.)
My issue was with the thought, in your mind, that the only time God, the Holy Spirit, shows up is when people are babbling in tongues or running the aisles screaming (or, since the Toronto/Pensacola thing has been brought up, barking, mooing, shrieking, writhing in pseudo-sexual throes…).
And yet you offered as proof of his ’showing up,’ these two things; and the first one is forbidden in the above passage. Did God change his mind? He says in the Word that if there is no interpretation, there must be no speaking in tongues in church, but then the Holy Spirit decides that it is OK? Since they are one, that would be a weird thing for a disagreement between them.
Could you please tell me chapter and verse on this, so that I can clearly see that these sorts of manifestations are moves of God? I truthfully would like to know your thinking on this.
Stein, you honestly don’t think it was a far more powerful move of the Holy Spirit for a arrogant man to admit he had sinned than it was for a woman to run around screaming ‘repent?’ For an abused woman to have had the courage, after 31 years, to stand up and say ‘no more?’ for three families to risk rejection from this community they love to speak for the widow and the fatherless?
But those things don’t impress you as a work of the Holy Spirit? But an outbreak of tongues with no corresponding interpretation, or a woman yelling and running around shows that he is finally showing up in Chesapeake?
God is pretty straightforward with his people–his focus is on repentance, rest, love.
Mercy, justice, goodness, truth, beauty.
His glory. His name.
Reaching the world with the good news of the coming of a savior.
Humility, compassion, generosity.
A people who love him and walk in the light, having fellowship with each other.
Care for the poor, the widow, the fatherless.
Growing in wisdom and knowledge and favor with God and man.
I caution you, my dear brother, to test the spirits you see and hear. And I rejoice with you in the moves of the Holy Spirit you see and will see at Ches.
January 16th, 2009 at 9:53 am
Jonathon–
What a fabulous post. Thank you!
January 16th, 2009 at 10:02 am
Freedom–
I must politely disagree with your interpretation:
He who prophesies is greater than one who speaks in tongues,unless he interprets, so that the church may be edified.
The one who speaks in tongues does not edify the church at all without an interpreter because…..according to the same passage….they are silent in church.
I think you are probably drafting your comments on this?
In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words; and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.
But still, I desire to be instructed in the Word as to where a corporate outbreak of tongues means that the Spirit is finally moving .
Thanks!
January 16th, 2009 at 10:19 am
Juli–
I am sorry, I did not read your post carefully, since I am not fully caffeinated this morning.
I suspect you are asking whether I think this is NOT a move of the Holy God?
I wouldn’t dare to say in this instance. I do believe that God can do anything he wills.
But we are urged to test the spirits and told that counterfeit signs would be done. I did watch Pensacola with fascination, and was appalled at the slapping, hitting, punching, screaming, writhing there, and not surprised when the deck of cards fell. What does a watching world do with this–a preacher claiming to have raised many from the dead, unable to produce a single person he had raised (this would have been news, I guarantee), who was involved with an adulterous affair and money weirdness.
I can tell you what they think, because many told me. Don’t worry, they won’t be taking up our parking places or pews at the church anytime soon. They are laughing too hard and mowing their lawns on Sunday morning.
At the same time, we have missionary physician friends from the yon mountain hinterlands of India where they wasted their time sharing the Gospel and their lives with people who did not have a local church.
God shows up there in signs and wonders, including the raising of the dead. So who knows? The difference is that the newly alive person was seen and heard and people were amazed and came to faith in Christ as a result.
At the same time, since God is God and has a great sense of humor, much wonderful fruit seemed to come from that time in the lives of his people. Many were blessed. He is very wise and terrible–he moves majestically to accomplish his will. No matter the means, his Word never returns void.
It makes me curious to see the attempted collision of Pensacola with Calvin/Luther in SGM. How can this be? (think Larry-that-shall-not-be-named)
We fundamentally disagree on certain things, though certainly affirm the essentials. Whatever side we fall on, we are one in Christ, and will be united in the new heavens and earth in a form of worship that will blow away anything we experience here.
January 16th, 2009 at 10:49 am
I think all of you are trying to understand and interpret something that you weren’t there to witness. Who really cares about your opinions. The Holy Spirit will move on whom he will and is not asking your opnion in the matter. We have been praying for the Holy Spirit to move among us. Some have been praying for 10 years–others of us for less time–But we are desperate for Him. Don’t think for a moment that we see this as any less than His precious presence refreshing our church–and especially our youth. We have been praying that God would free them and be real to them and they would see their walk with him as a glorious, exciting journey and not a set of rules. Many of them have already decided they want no part of this legalism they have been offered. He came with power.
This didn’t happen during the service. A couple of kids went to the back of the sanctuary after the congregation was dismissed and began praying. The group grew and grew. Many of the youth joined them and then many parents. They were praying for the Holy Spirit to minister to their friends–whom they love and want desperately to know how much God loves them. It lasted for over two hours. Many tears, repentance, refreshing…………………Say what you will the youth are being set free!!!!!!
January 16th, 2009 at 11:11 am
Dearest M-O-H,
Hallelujah!
Anytime we ask him to fill and empower us for his will, he is ready and eager to answer! You speak of prayer and tears and repentance and refreshing–truly works of God.
January 16th, 2009 at 11:45 am
I wrote this long post about our close friend Michael Brown who was one of the leaders of the Pensacola revival, then decided this isn’t the forum to discuss whether or not a move of God was a move of God. I’m going to let it go. Hard as that is.
I will continue to pray for my friends in Chesapeake and for the Holy Spirit to bring conviction of sin to pastors and church leaders and a release of forgiveness within the hearts of the congregation. True repentance and reconciliation and understanding and a real, authentic move of the Holy Spirit.
You can email me privately if you want to continue discussing tongues and interpretation or Pensacola. God bless you all!!!
January 16th, 2009 at 12:08 pm
Hi, More of Him. Glad to hear God is moving in your midst. My daughter receives text messages from one of the teens there regularly and comes and tells me what is happening. I think it’s wonderful that a teen is so excited he’s texting a girl in another state with the news. That kind of excitement about God thrills my heart!!
January 16th, 2009 at 12:39 pm
More-of-Him,
Thanks for sharing! I have been praying for the teens in both my former church and in SGM in general. I agree that one cannot judge whether the Holy Spirit is moving if they are not there to witness it. That being said I also believe there needs to be caution (for those at SGM Ches) to test and make sure that truly is God moving among them. I have spent years (going through myself and helping lead) in the teen ministry at my former church. I have seen over and over again as some of the same teens go up to alter calls because they feel the “spirit” is leading them. Some of the teens that go down I know really well and they are going down for alter calls like are you sure you’re saved when for a fact by the fruit of their life they shouldn’t be continuing to go down to these calls. Yes, it is great to see these teens humble themselves but it ends up they do it more out of an emotional thing than the spirit truly leading them. I pray that God continues to move but I remain skeptical solely based on what I’ve seen done in the “spirits” name but I pray I am wrong
January 16th, 2009 at 1:07 pm
I know what you mean, notw. But we can’t judge. I’ve seen teens be really unkind to my kids, then go up to the altar weeping before God. Our kids were bewildered by that. But my take on it is that God can use a donkey just as easily as he can use me. So the vessel doesn’t have to be pure at all to be used by God. Look at how Saul prophesied in the OT. There he was, chasing David, trying to murder him. Then he stops off to visit the prophets and he starts prophesying, too. Who can figure out God?
Yes, be careful to test the spirits. But after a long dearth or desert time when nothing like this took place much in Chesapeake, to see that the Holy Spirit is falling upon the teens and anointing their prayer times is fantastic! I’m greatly encouraged! And since I know many of them personally, I can also guarantee that these are godly offspring of godly parents who are seeking Him with all their hearts. Parents who have grieved over their children knowing God intimately and prayed without ceasing for them to be touched by the Holy Spirit.
I don’t think corporate tongues are a sign of the Holy Spirit moving as someone asked several posts above. My take is that it’s a sign of a public outcry for more of God. That happens when people are broken and hurting. But it doesn’t mean the Holy Spirit is there or not there in that case. Still exciting!!
January 16th, 2009 at 4:16 pm
it does indeed sound as if the Spirit is at work in the youth at Chesapeake and I too rejoice! How refreshing to hear, it soothes the soul burdened by stories of bondage for far too long..
I’m sorry for the segue into the tongues thing, I will to defer as FF will that this discussion is not best suited for this forum, I simply agree with Reformed T and we should test the spirits…specifically, the situation spoken of initially, NOT the incidents with the youth. THose stories I had not heard, and I certainly would NOT question that as being the work of the Lord..so please don’t be discouraged brothers and sisters at Chespapeake if you thought I was implying God was not working at all there, I simply questioned the event in question (corporate tongues, running down aisle)
Wow, I’m encouraged!!! Youth are SO tender! It is encouraging to see God work in them first…how wise of Him!
When parents and adults see the changing of hearts, true repentance, it does amazing things..and trickles over to others around. Who would have thought it would begin with the children? How the Lord humbles us…
January 16th, 2009 at 8:35 pm
Who would have thought it would begin with the children? Are you kidding? God wasn’t messing around when He said and the children would lead them and he wasn’t messing around when he said that hiskingdom is upside down from this worlds. (do NOT ask me a verse on that one. maybe it was just what i was tuaght growing up, that the kingdom of heaven is opposite to the way this world works.) we all been in sgm too long if we forget that it is the humble ones our great lord uses. we stopped listening to the kids too long ago and only the e ones who look like they just came out of their momma’s wombs. (errr. was that a snarky comment about he bald emasculated looking men that lead sgm? yes, i believe it may have been.)
ps. i come from a family of bald men and love each one of them. i have never tolaerated any unkind comments about bald m en. til now. the whole copycat grooming craze that happened around sgm it just too… craZy not to be commented upon from time to time. its’s like the rachel look when friends began. just a bit too disturbing when all of the sorority sisters get the same look. sissy men acting like bullies. sheesh. i thought that ended in 3rd grade. (clearly my name calling did not end there either. actually i never called names. just started now ’cause i’m tired of not enough people standing up to the dang blasted bullies. sometimes i feel like uttering that last comment proclaimed from the famous tina fey/palin with hillary clinton speech. and it wasn’t he part that said, live form new york, it’s saturday night. if you don’t know what i’m tlakign about, you tube it.
i’ll lend you mine…
March 23rd, 2009 at 1:17 pm
Word has it from the grapevine that Gene Emerson is coming back to Chesapeake next Sunday to make some announcements and to report on the “investigation” based on the events of last Nov. and Dec. This was supposed to happen at a family meeting Sunday night the 29th but now they have changed it and Gene will speak Sunday morning. Of course, this is from the grapevine……Maybe Gene will finally confess his wrongdoings and repent to the entire SGCC congregation for his part in the fiasco last Dec and his words of slander concerning the 3 couples. Will he also repent for not getting involved with Esther when she asked him for help in Sept.? Will Steve Shank, Dave Harve, and CJ send word of their confessions and repentance for not helping Esther when she asked them for help as well? We can continue hoping for true repentance and true change. I just hope that Gene does not throw KB and BC under the bus, unless Gene, CJ, Steve, Dave and others plan to go with them.
November 3rd, 2009 at 8:19 am
This guy Gene is a joke with giving a sermon on charitable judgments. He is way to quick to pass judgement on people he dosent even know.
November 3rd, 2009 at 1:17 pm
Lostone,
If I remember, you attend Kingsway now and again with a friend, right? Please elaborate a little, if you don’t mind.
Matthew Williams preached that message (Charitable Judgments) on Oct 25th. Click here!
I am definitely not a Gene Emerson defender, but he is saying some encouraging things lately. My hope is that those “encouraging things” are heart felt, not damage control. I am just trying to detach my feelings from reality here. As I have stated, too many times to count, Gene can preach the most grace-filled message imaginable but then turn around and mix it with law, which contaminates it to the core. Law and Grace never mix well.
In any case, Lostone, please unpack your observations00yuck, there is that word again.
November 16th, 2009 at 12:39 pm
Looks like Kingsway is doing a series on “Correction”. Haven’t listened to the series but saw that KB (sent to Kingsway from Chesapeake) recently taught on how to give correction. For those who would like to listen, here is the link: http://www.kingswayaudio.com/. When I listen to the message, I will be looking for evidence that things are really different. Just wondering, has SGM really changed?
November 16th, 2009 at 1:40 pm
Hi Fred,
Thank you very much for posting that. I just listened to KB’s entire message on “how to bring correction”. It was absolutely outstanding! It was just the opposite of what I thought he was going to teach. I was floored. I encourage everyone to please go listen to that message.
WOW!