sic semper tyrannis

\m/ >.< \m/

But, Who am I to police and place eternal damnation on any man’s ministry or life?
We are to run from any type ministry.

I guess St. Peters Sword has been drawn out again?
After the stoning took place, Didn’t Paul have his transformation and a second chance with Jesus on the road to Damascus?  SO Jesus wasn’t finished with him before mankind judged him?
I believe the chaff is to be removed and burned in the end by “Our Lord” not those in this world and yes many who say Lord Lord, Jesus will never have known them.
Luke 3:17
Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff He will burn with fire unquenchable.

Yet we see those who forsake their first love in Christ, have sinful veils and the Holy Spirit is no longer in their life.

The Loveless Church
Rev 2:
2 “I know your works, your labor, your patience, and that you cannot bear those who are evil. And you have tested those who say they are apostles and are not, and have found them liars; 3 and you have persevered and have patience, and have labored for My name’s sake and have not become weary. 4 Nevertheless I have this against you, that you have left your first love. 5 Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place—unless you repent

They now justify hatred and anger as their minute by minute meal so they assume their grasping religious values are now justified because “their own”, work is on the prowl as a group with the rejected spirits on this earth.

It is sad that those attacking ministries do not heed the warning of God our Father and the Words of Christ Jesus. It seems that so many come to a plateau in their Spiritual growth and feel they have arrived and justify them selves, but the Word of God condemns their actions. For me it is a day by day submission and walk in my relationship with Jesus.
I say “Many” get a glimpse of the Kingdom, but then obeying the their own senses and other men’s observances and turning from “The Way” unto a legalistic army that is so far from Gods grace  join in to anguish Gods own army, with their own crowd of cheers as they tear down God’s ministries in this world, “blinded by their own self gratification and their blind leaders”, they only search out the innocent and those who by word of mouth from others, attack till death if possible.
Like the clan felt justified killing a man if he had different color skin for many years.
I am so glad that when Jesus was challenged by a crowd to decide on the immediate arrest of the prostitute to condemn her or not, He said, ” you who have no sin cast the first stone”.

If these ones who are attacking SGM and others have such blessed wisdom and balance in their own families and life, then use it become involved leaders in the Kingdom and not followers to persecute , Get involved in any ministry outside of your comfort zone with  the Leading of the Holy Spirit of course.
I remember i was approached by a Lady in my church saying, “why do i waste my time going into the prisons teaching Gods word to the convict’s, They had their chance on the streets !” i was so shocked, but also i know the power of hatred and anger as i was guilty of this growing up in my teen’s.

Jesus said, “my people hear my voice”, yet millions only hear mankind’s voice and remember  Jesus said he trusted no man.
I believe these anti-Christian speculators have such worldly wisdom that even God chuckles at their remarks yet He says to them “beware because every single word we speak or insult others by raca, we will be accountable for in the end.
Matthew 5:22
But I say (Jesus the Creator and Judge} say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in “danger of the Eternal judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of Eternal hell fire.”"”"

I say if?  you have the Holy Spirit led Life, then it is much more a blessing to go out into the work fields and bring in the harvest with those who need salvation now, because truly the fields are ripe and in need for workers as so many physically die daily without salvation in their life.
We should feel guilty that we can not approaching those who are diminishing daily from salvation’s door’s into Eternal hell.
Busy hands and minds will not let a heart grow heavy,
Frustration is not having anyone to blame but yourself.
Sometimes problems are more elusive than solutions.
I pray that the attacks stop and Gods Grace is sufficient in the lives of us all.
But we forgive those who are misled praying your return to Gods Grace and salvation, open the word saturate your mind and heart with the Living Words of God that when spoken, “Let there be light” also with the same intensity said, “Forgive them, they do not know what they have done!”
Emanuel,
Chaplain Tom
Prison Chaplain
Los Angeles, Ca.

I tell women I share the gospel with each week that the gospel means grace – not the law. I am CONSTANTLY reminding them that there is nothing more required of them – most were raised Catholic and this IS Good News but also something they have a hard time believing. They simply are in a authoritarian, guilt ridden, church in power relgious system. Many have said it before and I still agree – SGM is more Catholic than anything else. It shares more similarities with the Catholic church than any other denomination – reformed, calvinisitic, charismatic or otherwise. Because of this you get a lot of “SGM guilt” like the ol’ Catholic guilt many suffer from. Deception at it’s best (or worst really)

I am burdened as well for those who are in bondage to this guilt, to the overwhelming feeling that their sanctification is their responsibility – or in some cases, that they have NO responsibility and hence no hope for change because maybe God won’t grant them repentance in some area – it’s all wacked if you ask me. SGM has twisted the sovereignty of God, man’s responsibility, and sanctification and produced some confused, overhwelmed, works-driven, law-burdened, joyless sheep in need of freedom. Isaiah 53..our only hope.

I undestand what you mean. It is about authority and control. I also think some of the “corrections” come purposely to test loyalty. I have known some really strong Christians that got the confrontation for a spirit of pride thing. It goes well for them if they just agree and act like some change has happened. If not the people are soon very broken hearted as all love and friendship is cut off and they are made to feel like they are now second class Christians.

 It is terribly sad because there is nothing more painful than spiritual abuse or control however you label it. I have been physically abused by my father and sexually abused by two other family members, I hope to tell you that the spritual abuse was by far the worst, without question. There is nothing more cruel then to leave someone thinking God no longer accepts or loves them; for one that deeply loves God there is no greater loss. It took a long long time about 12 years for me to really get they don’t have that kind of control. That God alone is God, He is the way the truth and life; there is no other that can redeem or condemn me, there is no other name under heaven by which I must be saved. It breaks my heart to think that even one person might still be experiencing this there…

Then, SGM arrives on the scene and this once dull, unmotivated, isolated and independet church is now part of somethng bigger – namely, Sovereign Grace Ministries family of churches. SGM validated the church in some ways. And brought some legitimacy to it, even I sensed that only after a couple of years. People started visiting from other SGM churches, but it was more of the same sheep-swapping and sheep-stealing but no conversions. If the Spirit of God is at work, won’t people be born again?? Reformed theology considered, there would still be people being born again if God was working and the gospel being preached.

So at what point, if everyone says you are wearing blue, even if you think you are wearing green, do you check to see? Of course EVERYONE else could be wrong, but I never got the impression that my former pastor or anyone in SGM has really taken the time to honestly address the fact that people are calling them a cult, or cult-like, whatever you want to call it. Why don’t they respond to the “accusations”? What are they scared of? Are they scared? Are they in denial? What  am saying is that if you feel so confidently in what you profess to believe, then you should never be shaken when those convictions and beliefs are tested, attacked, etc. Paul said to give a defense.

I know that SGM doctrines and practices are certainly not the same thing as the gospel, but in a sense, lets take Paul’s advie to heart: give a defense SGM! Why do you still maintain that you are NOT a authoritairan church? If you are not legalistic, how are you not and how are you grace-based in practice? How do you explain the multitude of people coming out of your churches who are being convicted of legalism and idolatry, and others who are stripped of their joy? SGM’s silence is telling, to say the least.

Canary and Butterfly, I usually tell people I was in an authoritarian church and experienced a degree of spiritual abuse. I acknowledge my experience at SGM was nowhere near as horrible as other churches and denominations, but that doesn’t diminish my pain, deception or need for healing any more than the need for say, a Mormon to heal from the spiritual abuse they endured.

All this so say that at the core is spiritual abuse as a result of an authoritarian structure. Many other denominations are like this and others have experienced varying degrees of it: Catholics, Charismatics, Pentecostals, Baptists, Mormons, JW’s, etc….so it is packaged differently in each, but at the core it is all about authority and control.

Well said, Butterfly.  I really feel strongly that the leaven in the church is what keeps the body of Christ from being effective in this day.  If we can let the Lord, by His Spirit which He left us, reveal the ways in which we still practice the old covenant, we would see the gospel in its true light.  Centuries of dust and build-up have covered our message, and nearly nullified it to the unbelieving.  To the world we are hypocrites, or bible thumpers, or irrelevant.  The true nature of the Good News is so much more than we allow it to be. 

Certainly, we were warned by Jesus that the world would hate us, but let them hate us for loving Christ, not for hypocricy or irrelevance.  Don’t let them hate us because we are mindless robots who cannot think for ourselves, who follow controlling, insecure leaders.  Let them hate us because they see Jesus in us! 

But, all that aside I don’t want to define them by my experience there but by the word of God.  I do think it would be wrong to define Christ’s bride as a “cult”. I am grateful for this conversation because prior to this I wasn’t sure how to define them in conversation.

I also think when you use the word cult it can make your experience there feel worse and more violating. I also think it does malign the word of God to the world.

I think if I was sharing my experience there I would still have to be truthful. I would say that I found them to have legalism and control issues – no different then what Jesus said about the Pharisees in the day.

I just wanted to say that before I even read your post, just when I saw your name, I smiled knowing you had posted again.  It’s nice to “see” you again.

S

I am one who shares your opinion that we cannot call a church whose basic doctrines of the faith are scriptural a cult..  I think the Bible, especially Galations, deals with the problem as legalism, which Paul calls a different gospel.  Leaven of the Pharisees is another term.  It is something the church has struggled with since day one.  Jesus addressed the Pharisees in Jerusalem.  Paul confronted Peter in front of everyone when he would not eat with the Gentiles after  Jewish church leaders came to town.  Timothy was faced with the leaven when he went to Jerusalem with Paul, afraid that the Jewish Christians would expect him to be circumcized.  Fortunately, that temptation was resisted.

It is all about not abiding in Christ.  We attempt to sanctify ourselves.  What that really turns out to be is self-discipline.  We may do it for God, or we might do it for ourselves, so we can look good to other Christians.  When the Lord sanctifies, it is real and it sticks.  After years of battling with a paralyzing fear, it wasn’t until after I left SGM that the Lord was able to address it without man’s influence.  I never thought I’d be free, but I am.  It is truly a miracle, and God’s sanctifying hand.

As for groups calling themselves cults, I doubt it.  The word has such negative connotations that an organization probably wouldn’t embrace the title.  I really think that word could backfire on the Lord’s church if we aren’t careful in how we use it. 

Eponine, it is good to hear you thinking and observing the world around you.  To see that the students who go away to college come back strong in the Lord is a testament to how completely the grace of God can cover His people.  HE keeps us safe. 

Having been in Sovereign Grace my whole life and rarely been to churches outside, it was hard to understand why people thought we were a cult until I went to college. That’s when I started wondering, are we a cult?? I sure can understand why people would think that! I have since decided I don’t think we are a cult, but I can chuckle to myself at the many ways we look like a cult – some mentioned in my earlier comment about overused phrases.

Sure, we have strict rules, some which I don’t necessarily agree with, others which I find very helpful for keeping myself in check.  Yes, I see the legalism, I struggle with it daily. But I can’t say that has always been a problem. There were many years in which my walk with the Lord was a delight and its more my laziness that I have strayed some over the years. I understand problems with some leaders, I’m grateful to say I have not experienced it personally, and in fact my experience with my pastors has been so graceful and it was so evident they cared for me. I’m grateful for friends who went away to school and didn’t go to SGM churches while away – when they are back in town it is SUCH a breath of fresh air!! Although us who stayed home worried for them being out of the safety net, they have done so well and are experiencing God and his grace – even outside of SGM! Shock!! Listening to them talk is so refreshing and helps me to meet with the Lord just through talking with them and hearing how well they are doing.

Anyway, I’m rambling… I just thought I’d drop by again after thinking about this post in class today.

the Kingdoms of man alway crumbles eventually – one day SGM will enter the realm of religious movements that strayed/failed as many others have. There is nothing new under the sun. It (the driving force behind SGM and other movements that cause bondage and not freedom) will come back again under a new name, new leaders, repackaged, to decieve others. Unless Jesus comes back that is …

Come quickly, Lord Jesus.

“Sovereign Grace Ministries” produces 57,900 results.
“Sovereign Grace ministries” + “heresy” produces 5,040 results
Granted, these results do not ALWAYS indicate that the site is about SGM being involved in heresy, it is encouraging to find that 8% of the SGM results are coupled with this term. It is nice to see that three of the top ten results DO report on the heresies within SGM.

Slavation – good one.  That’s what it seemed like.  Now we are free!

“They certainly don’t preach slavation by works.”

I think I invented a new word: SLAVE-ATION..instead of salvation. Kinds of fits with SGM I suppose, since the church is played out to be our savior and spiritual covering, and therefore takes the place of Christ and the atonement in our lives.

Slaves to the church, not slaves to Christ. Sad.

Paul said, “having begun in the spirit (grace) why is it you are now trying to be perfected by the flesh?”  Props to you on that one, Paul.

“We want to offer a pure, untainted Gospel, so that all people will be drawn to your Son, Jesus!”

Amen, Canary.

I agree whole heartedly that we must call legalism what it is – another gospel.  In fact, as Paul said, it isn’t even a gospel, for it is certainly not good news!

I love what I’ve learned in Galations.  Lord, by your Spirit, get the leaven out of the body of Christ!  Show us where it is in our own lives and help us treat it as severely as Paul did.  We want to offer a pure, untainted Gospel, so that all people will be drawn to your Son, Jesus! 

You know what I am just now finding out? That as someone pointed out, even though grace is preached from the pulpit as the sole means of salvation, it is NOT preached as the sole means of SANCTIFICATION. We ARE left to deal with our indwelling sin and wicked hearts with suggestions from John Owen! Who, by the way, must have been a very sad man. He strived in the flesh to perfect himself, and how he, and us all who were in SGM, and htose there now, could read Galtians and MISS THE POINT??

Paul said, having begun in the spirit (grace) why is it you are now trying to be perfected by the flesh?

That simple truth is lost in SGM> They think legalism (when we speak of it) and think in terms of salvation, not sanctification. They certainly don’t preach slavation by works, but they do preach sanctification by works. And that is why they are Pharisees, and it is leaven, and ANOTHER GOSPEL.

I’ve been afraid all these months to really admit the bad doctrine, but there it is, plain as day: sanctification by works. It’s unbiblical. And the fruit of this teaching is evident as people increase in things like homeschooling, modesty, courtship, submission, dominionism, etc etc etc. These are all things with the appearance of godliness but are not of God.

I homeschool, I dress modestly, but I now know that God doesn’t love me MORE because I do, AND He doesn’t love my sister LESS who doesn’t do those things!

For me, that is the bottom line. Grace…

You’re welcome.  I wish I could say “thanks” to those beautiful, Christian neighbors. Children are so precious to Jesus! 

What a beautiful story.  Thank you for sharing it.

Stunned

I do have one thing to add.  It is about the children.  Because some very loving, Christian neighbors moved next door to my home when I was a child (8-9 yrs), I began to hear about God from them.  I was in a non-believing family.  They took me to church meetings and Sunday school.  We played with their children.  I began to believe in God because of the influence of these people, who over-looked my parentage, my awkwardness, and my bad temper!  Years later, at the age of eighteen, I gave my life back to Whom it belonged.

I credit these Christian neighbors for the openness I had in believing that God existed.  Later, when I was old enough to understand, I turned to the Lord.  My point is that we never know what influence for Jesus we might have on a young life, for good or for evil.  If a church or a leader or a prophet has no heart for the children, I stay well away from them.  I want to imitate Jesus, who welcomed the children to Himself when others tried to shoo them away. 

God help all the little children who have been hurt and overlooked by the very ones meant to love and welcome them.  Lord, You won’t overlook them!

Carole,

There was passion in your post.  Very, VERY well said!