Really, it all starts off with —who is truly being worshipped?
I go back to PK’s posting on polity and his quote:
“SGM’s espousing ’1st among equals’  (‘primus inter pares’)  is a term created by and for the Roman Empire — the Emperors way of reducing the appearance of dictatorship, and it is a term that belongs nowhere in the church.”

A great mocking has occurred, as SGM espouses Grace, Sovereignty, Holiness, Humility–

For they (consciously or not)  have sought to remove the Lordship of Jesus Christ in the redeemed hearts of the Believers by requiring their parishoners to look to SGM pastor ‘standing in the very stead of God’. Jesus said said His ‘sheep’ will know, and hear HIS Voice and follow HIM.

They have divorced the Holy Spirit —where once there was greater covenant relationship with Him –now He has been relegated to a back seat behind the ‘standing in the very stead of God’ SGM pastors. Jesus said He was sending the Holy Spirit in His place—so He could be omnipotent and omnipresent for every Believer.

SGM chips away the fullness of redemptive LIFE by seeking to be the eyes, ears, mind, and heart of the Believer—thus creating the culture of Stepfordites we see in many of the ‘Family of churches’. Critical thinking and spiritual discernment diminish as the years go by—replaced by alleigance to the SGM idol

SGM seeks to fix parishoner eyes on   sin  sin  sin — admonishing parishoners to prioritize “killing sin”.  Jesus said “Seek ye FIRST the Kingdom of God, and His Righteousness”
(Matt 6:33)

If we are entering a time on the earth, when we actually see the spirit of deception operating at all levels (in the days when “Even the elect will be deceived”), we as Believers must cry out to God and Him alone to open our eyes and hear His Voice and know HIS leading above ALL others. God sent His Son as exact representation of Himself–Jesus said IAM THE Way, the Truth, and the Life. Not an institution made of polity edicts, but Jesus, the Messiah, the Risen Savior Redeemer (John 10:14-15 “IAM the good shepherd; I know My sheep and My sheep know Me; just as the Father knows Me and I know the Father–and I lay down My life for the sheep.”)

cult
[kuhlt] Show IPA

–noun
1.
a particular system of religious worship, especially with reference to its rites and ceremonies.

2.
an instance of great veneration of a person, ideal, or thing,especially as manifested by a body of admirers: the physical fitness cult.

3.
the object of such devotion.

4.
a group or sect bound together by veneration of the same thing, person, ideal, etc.

5.
Sociology . a group having a sacred ideology and a set of rites centering around their sacred symbols.

6.
a religion or sect considered to be false, unorthodox, or extremist, with members often living outside of conventionalsociety under the direction of a charismatic leader.

7.
the members of such a religion or sect.

8.
any system for treating human sickness that originated by aperson usually claiming to have sole insight into the nature of disease, and that employs methods regarded as unorthodoxor unscientific.

I’m thinking ……….. yes it’s a cult
 
N.S.L.B.

But, Who am I to police and place eternal damnation on any man’s ministry or life?
We are to run from any type ministry.

I guess St. Peters Sword has been drawn out again?
After the stoning took place, Didn’t Paul have his transformation and a second chance with Jesus on the road to Damascus?  SO Jesus wasn’t finished with him before mankind judged him?
I believe the chaff is to be removed and burned in the end by “Our Lord” not those in this world and yes many who say Lord Lord, Jesus will never have known them.
Luke 3:17
Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff He will burn with fire unquenchable.

Yet we see those who forsake their first love in Christ, have sinful veils and the Holy Spirit is no longer in their life.

The Loveless Church
Rev 2:
2 “I know your works, your labor, your patience, and that you cannot bear those who are evil. And you have tested those who say they are apostles and are not, and have found them liars; 3 and you have persevered and have patience, and have labored for My name’s sake and have not become weary. 4 Nevertheless I have this against you, that you have left your first love. 5 Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place—unless you repent

They now justify hatred and anger as their minute by minute meal so they assume their grasping religious values are now justified because “their own”, work is on the prowl as a group with the rejected spirits on this earth.

It is sad that those attacking ministries do not heed the warning of God our Father and the Words of Christ Jesus. It seems that so many come to a plateau in their Spiritual growth and feel they have arrived and justify them selves, but the Word of God condemns their actions. For me it is a day by day submission and walk in my relationship with Jesus.
I say “Many” get a glimpse of the Kingdom, but then obeying the their own senses and other men’s observances and turning from “The Way” unto a legalistic army that is so far from Gods grace  join in to anguish Gods own army, with their own crowd of cheers as they tear down God’s ministries in this world, “blinded by their own self gratification and their blind leaders”, they only search out the innocent and those who by word of mouth from others, attack till death if possible.
Like the clan felt justified killing a man if he had different color skin for many years.
I am so glad that when Jesus was challenged by a crowd to decide on the immediate arrest of the prostitute to condemn her or not, He said, ” you who have no sin cast the first stone”.

If these ones who are attacking SGM and others have such blessed wisdom and balance in their own families and life, then use it become involved leaders in the Kingdom and not followers to persecute , Get involved in any ministry outside of your comfort zone with  the Leading of the Holy Spirit of course.
I remember i was approached by a Lady in my church saying, “why do i waste my time going into the prisons teaching Gods word to the convict’s, They had their chance on the streets !” i was so shocked, but also i know the power of hatred and anger as i was guilty of this growing up in my teen’s.

Jesus said, “my people hear my voice”, yet millions only hear mankind’s voice and remember  Jesus said he trusted no man.
I believe these anti-Christian speculators have such worldly wisdom that even God chuckles at their remarks yet He says to them “beware because every single word we speak or insult others by raca, we will be accountable for in the end.
Matthew 5:22
But I say (Jesus the Creator and Judge} say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in “danger of the Eternal judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of Eternal hell fire.”"”"

I say if?  you have the Holy Spirit led Life, then it is much more a blessing to go out into the work fields and bring in the harvest with those who need salvation now, because truly the fields are ripe and in need for workers as so many physically die daily without salvation in their life.
We should feel guilty that we can not approaching those who are diminishing daily from salvation’s door’s into Eternal hell.
Busy hands and minds will not let a heart grow heavy,
Frustration is not having anyone to blame but yourself.
Sometimes problems are more elusive than solutions.
I pray that the attacks stop and Gods Grace is sufficient in the lives of us all.
But we forgive those who are misled praying your return to Gods Grace and salvation, open the word saturate your mind and heart with the Living Words of God that when spoken, “Let there be light” also with the same intensity said, “Forgive them, they do not know what they have done!”
Emanuel,
Chaplain Tom
Prison Chaplain
Los Angeles, Ca.

I tell women I share the gospel with each week that the gospel means grace – not the law. I am CONSTANTLY reminding them that there is nothing more required of them – most were raised Catholic and this IS Good News but also something they have a hard time believing. They simply are in a authoritarian, guilt ridden, church in power relgious system. Many have said it before and I still agree – SGM is more Catholic than anything else. It shares more similarities with the Catholic church than any other denomination – reformed, calvinisitic, charismatic or otherwise. Because of this you get a lot of “SGM guilt” like the ol’ Catholic guilt many suffer from. Deception at it’s best (or worst really)

I am burdened as well for those who are in bondage to this guilt, to the overwhelming feeling that their sanctification is their responsibility – or in some cases, that they have NO responsibility and hence no hope for change because maybe God won’t grant them repentance in some area – it’s all wacked if you ask me. SGM has twisted the sovereignty of God, man’s responsibility, and sanctification and produced some confused, overhwelmed, works-driven, law-burdened, joyless sheep in need of freedom. Isaiah 53..our only hope.

I undestand what you mean. It is about authority and control. I also think some of the “corrections” come purposely to test loyalty. I have known some really strong Christians that got the confrontation for a spirit of pride thing. It goes well for them if they just agree and act like some change has happened. If not the people are soon very broken hearted as all love and friendship is cut off and they are made to feel like they are now second class Christians.

 It is terribly sad because there is nothing more painful than spiritual abuse or control however you label it. I have been physically abused by my father and sexually abused by two other family members, I hope to tell you that the spritual abuse was by far the worst, without question. There is nothing more cruel then to leave someone thinking God no longer accepts or loves them; for one that deeply loves God there is no greater loss. It took a long long time about 12 years for me to really get they don’t have that kind of control. That God alone is God, He is the way the truth and life; there is no other that can redeem or condemn me, there is no other name under heaven by which I must be saved. It breaks my heart to think that even one person might still be experiencing this there…

Then, SGM arrives on the scene and this once dull, unmotivated, isolated and independet church is now part of somethng bigger – namely, Sovereign Grace Ministries family of churches. SGM validated the church in some ways. And brought some legitimacy to it, even I sensed that only after a couple of years. People started visiting from other SGM churches, but it was more of the same sheep-swapping and sheep-stealing but no conversions. If the Spirit of God is at work, won’t people be born again?? Reformed theology considered, there would still be people being born again if God was working and the gospel being preached.

So at what point, if everyone says you are wearing blue, even if you think you are wearing green, do you check to see? Of course EVERYONE else could be wrong, but I never got the impression that my former pastor or anyone in SGM has really taken the time to honestly address the fact that people are calling them a cult, or cult-like, whatever you want to call it. Why don’t they respond to the “accusations”? What are they scared of? Are they scared? Are they in denial? What  am saying is that if you feel so confidently in what you profess to believe, then you should never be shaken when those convictions and beliefs are tested, attacked, etc. Paul said to give a defense.

I know that SGM doctrines and practices are certainly not the same thing as the gospel, but in a sense, lets take Paul’s advie to heart: give a defense SGM! Why do you still maintain that you are NOT a authoritairan church? If you are not legalistic, how are you not and how are you grace-based in practice? How do you explain the multitude of people coming out of your churches who are being convicted of legalism and idolatry, and others who are stripped of their joy? SGM’s silence is telling, to say the least.

Canary and Butterfly, I usually tell people I was in an authoritarian church and experienced a degree of spiritual abuse. I acknowledge my experience at SGM was nowhere near as horrible as other churches and denominations, but that doesn’t diminish my pain, deception or need for healing any more than the need for say, a Mormon to heal from the spiritual abuse they endured.

All this so say that at the core is spiritual abuse as a result of an authoritarian structure. Many other denominations are like this and others have experienced varying degrees of it: Catholics, Charismatics, Pentecostals, Baptists, Mormons, JW’s, etc….so it is packaged differently in each, but at the core it is all about authority and control.

Well said, Butterfly.  I really feel strongly that the leaven in the church is what keeps the body of Christ from being effective in this day.  If we can let the Lord, by His Spirit which He left us, reveal the ways in which we still practice the old covenant, we would see the gospel in its true light.  Centuries of dust and build-up have covered our message, and nearly nullified it to the unbelieving.  To the world we are hypocrites, or bible thumpers, or irrelevant.  The true nature of the Good News is so much more than we allow it to be. 

Certainly, we were warned by Jesus that the world would hate us, but let them hate us for loving Christ, not for hypocricy or irrelevance.  Don’t let them hate us because we are mindless robots who cannot think for ourselves, who follow controlling, insecure leaders.  Let them hate us because they see Jesus in us! 

But, all that aside I don’t want to define them by my experience there but by the word of God.  I do think it would be wrong to define Christ’s bride as a “cult”. I am grateful for this conversation because prior to this I wasn’t sure how to define them in conversation.

I also think when you use the word cult it can make your experience there feel worse and more violating. I also think it does malign the word of God to the world.

I think if I was sharing my experience there I would still have to be truthful. I would say that I found them to have legalism and control issues – no different then what Jesus said about the Pharisees in the day.

I just wanted to say that before I even read your post, just when I saw your name, I smiled knowing you had posted again.  It’s nice to “see” you again.

S

I am one who shares your opinion that we cannot call a church whose basic doctrines of the faith are scriptural a cult..  I think the Bible, especially Galations, deals with the problem as legalism, which Paul calls a different gospel.  Leaven of the Pharisees is another term.  It is something the church has struggled with since day one.  Jesus addressed the Pharisees in Jerusalem.  Paul confronted Peter in front of everyone when he would not eat with the Gentiles after  Jewish church leaders came to town.  Timothy was faced with the leaven when he went to Jerusalem with Paul, afraid that the Jewish Christians would expect him to be circumcized.  Fortunately, that temptation was resisted.

It is all about not abiding in Christ.  We attempt to sanctify ourselves.  What that really turns out to be is self-discipline.  We may do it for God, or we might do it for ourselves, so we can look good to other Christians.  When the Lord sanctifies, it is real and it sticks.  After years of battling with a paralyzing fear, it wasn’t until after I left SGM that the Lord was able to address it without man’s influence.  I never thought I’d be free, but I am.  It is truly a miracle, and God’s sanctifying hand.

As for groups calling themselves cults, I doubt it.  The word has such negative connotations that an organization probably wouldn’t embrace the title.  I really think that word could backfire on the Lord’s church if we aren’t careful in how we use it. 

Eponine, it is good to hear you thinking and observing the world around you.  To see that the students who go away to college come back strong in the Lord is a testament to how completely the grace of God can cover His people.  HE keeps us safe. 

Having been in Sovereign Grace my whole life and rarely been to churches outside, it was hard to understand why people thought we were a cult until I went to college. That’s when I started wondering, are we a cult?? I sure can understand why people would think that! I have since decided I don’t think we are a cult, but I can chuckle to myself at the many ways we look like a cult – some mentioned in my earlier comment about overused phrases.

Sure, we have strict rules, some which I don’t necessarily agree with, others which I find very helpful for keeping myself in check.  Yes, I see the legalism, I struggle with it daily. But I can’t say that has always been a problem. There were many years in which my walk with the Lord was a delight and its more my laziness that I have strayed some over the years. I understand problems with some leaders, I’m grateful to say I have not experienced it personally, and in fact my experience with my pastors has been so graceful and it was so evident they cared for me. I’m grateful for friends who went away to school and didn’t go to SGM churches while away – when they are back in town it is SUCH a breath of fresh air!! Although us who stayed home worried for them being out of the safety net, they have done so well and are experiencing God and his grace – even outside of SGM! Shock!! Listening to them talk is so refreshing and helps me to meet with the Lord just through talking with them and hearing how well they are doing.

Anyway, I’m rambling… I just thought I’d drop by again after thinking about this post in class today.

the Kingdoms of man alway crumbles eventually – one day SGM will enter the realm of religious movements that strayed/failed as many others have. There is nothing new under the sun. It (the driving force behind SGM and other movements that cause bondage and not freedom) will come back again under a new name, new leaders, repackaged, to decieve others. Unless Jesus comes back that is …

Come quickly, Lord Jesus.

“Sovereign Grace Ministries” produces 57,900 results.
“Sovereign Grace ministries” + “heresy” produces 5,040 results
Granted, these results do not ALWAYS indicate that the site is about SGM being involved in heresy, it is encouraging to find that 8% of the SGM results are coupled with this term. It is nice to see that three of the top ten results DO report on the heresies within SGM.