Beloved:
I dreaded writing this post. This subject is truly one of those where I believe the debate has no end in sight, as many have their firm convictions and minds settled to a degree that won’t be moved by any natural means.
So, with caution and prayer, here we go…
Christians are going to have to define this word very specifically.
What, in fact, does the word “cult” mean in terms of evangelical Christian theology? Is it a word that we let the world outside the church modify and determine for us in the faith, or do we raise our own standard in regard to it? I would support the latter, and I do not do so in a vacuum, by any means.
I’ve spent many, many hours these past weeks reading posts and comments regarding the issue of whether or not Sovereign Grace Ministries (SGM) should be classified as a cult.
As I surf sites that have miscellaneous posters and commentators -every one of them entitled to their opinion- who write about the ills of SGM, these are some of the observations and statements of individuals I have gleaned after countless hours of reading:
(1) Some individuals fire a Patriot missile and directly accuse Sovereign Grace Ministries of being a “cult.”
(2) Some individuals fire a bazooka, taking it down half-a-notch from number (1) and directly accuse Sovereign Grace Ministries of exhibiting “cult-like behavior.”
(3) Some individuals fire a sawed-off shotgun, taking it down three-quarters of a notch from number (1), and hint at SGM of demanding “cult-like adherence” to particular doctrinal distinctives, teachings, lifestyles, fads, etc.
(4) Some individuals have fired really loud cap-guns by making the it’s-not-a-cult-but-it-sure-is-scary comments.
What all four of the above have in common is that the word CULT has been thrown into the SGM conversational arena, and there’s no going back. I knew that by even doing this post I would only contribute to this.
I have a problem with this, in that I believe people need to be very careful before slapping this four-letter word onto SGM.
In my opinion, numbers (2) and (3) above are not just related to number (1)… the first three are practically triplets in terms of forcefulness. While number (4) may be the red-headed step-brother of this bunch (no offense, red-headed step-brothers), he’s a relative, nonetheless, and can cause as much damage as the triplets.
I don’t think the weapons and sibling analogies can quite capture the concern I have about this word “cult.” Many will presume I have an issue with it because I’m a member of an SGM church, as in “PK must abhor it because he’s been (gasp) taken captive by them.”
My response is that if you believe this, you haven’t been reading my posts and comments in regard to reform here at SGM Refuge; posts and comments critical of my own organization. I take a lot of heat from both sides, and I never take pleasure in it. SGM needs reform, and that’s where my flag is planted.
I feel strongly the need to defend SGM in this use of the word “cult” as many feel it applies to us.
The reason I have a problem with throwing the word “cult” around is because I am very familiar with the word “cult,” for better and for worse. I spent the first quarter of my life in a cult, and many of my own family members spent much longer; I know how a cult feels, looks, sounds, smells and tastes. While I have no formal degrees regarding it, I’ve studied cults, the occult and non-Christian religions for the better part of three decades. I’ve spent hours and hours with ex-cult members, spent just as many hours witnessing to cult members, and spent even more hours on my knees before God regarding all of the above.
Where I part company with many folks who post or comment: when they include “cult” in the same sentence along with Sovereign Grace Ministries accompanied by scathing language, derogatory or less-than-flattering words. I may have even uttered these words myself (“cult-like”). Carrying it beyond an initial, emotional response needs to be seriously reviewed and considered. Beloved, I believe that SGM on its worst day doesn’t even tread the same ground that a “cult” does if we are to apply any type of meaningful standard to the word “cult.”
I know for many reading this, that last sentence felt like salt on your open wounds and many of those wounds were inflicted by SGM. And I know many who are reading this went through harrowing situations due to the sinful behavior of many SGM members, including those in leadership and those in the flock. Please understand that I haven’t gone temporarily insane and forgotten this. Others are taking exception to my words because you thought SGM was clearly defined in a Sociology 101 textbook definition of a cult.
Prayerfully consider holding back on any retorts before reading the rest of this post; in other words, hear me out.
Many men have given their lives or at the very least significant chunks of their ministry in researching, affirming and developing a detailed Evangelical Christian apologetic in regard to the study of cults. Among them on a very short list are Jan Karl van Baalen, Walter Martin, Josh McDowell, Norman Geisler and Ravi Zacharias. Van Baalen, in fact is probably credited with the current usage of the word in Christian culture.
In all of the above individuals’ bodies of work (and many more that were not listed) that includes articles, books, and audio messages detailing their take on the subject of cults, there is an unswerving lane of consistency they maintain before stamping the word “cult” onto any organization. This lane, I am convinced, distilled down to the nitty-gritty, includes essentials of the Christian faith, one or more of which must be mangled to the point of being utterly outside orthodoxy before the word “cult” ever comes into the picture (these are enumerated, but not listed in order of importance; one could argue they are all on the same plane of profundity):
(1) His Word is Truth, or the Infallibility/Inerrancy of Holy Scripture.
(2) God in Three Persons, or the Doctrine of the Holy Trinity.
(3) The Doctrine of the Deity of Jesus Christ.
(4) The Doctrine of the Virgin Birth of Jesus Christ.
(5) The Gospel of Christ in His Dying for our sins, or the Doctrine of Salvation, or the Doctrine of the Atonement (its counterpart would include salvation PLUS works formulae and the error of universal salvation). Included in this nearly-unfathomable subject is the truth that human works are a natural outpouring of one’s salvation status, but contribute absolute zero to that same salvation status.
(6) The Gospel of Christ in the triumph over death in His bodily resurrection.
(7) The Gospel of Christ in His Return, or Second Advent (not when He is coming again, but that He is coming again).
Staunch Hyper-Calvinists would whip out TULIP at this point, but I think it obfuscates the issue at hand, which is defining a cult. In numbers one through seven above, there are solid lines of agreement, however slim one may think they are, between Arminians and Calvinists and everyone in between.
Others believe that items such as (a) Spiritual Gifts and their manifestations, (b) a correct understanding of the offices of the church (a subject close to my heart) (c) the roles of gender in relationship to marriage and church leadership, etc. should be in the above list. Subjects like this, while hotly debated and contested (some by me on a regular basis) I still believe fall within the periphery of theology, and not the soul-saving essentials. As Wayne Grudem would say, a church can be more or less pure in these areas.
My prayer is that individuals see the heart of what I am saying. Are there psychological games, abuse and general mayhem with the minds of the sheep in cults? Of course there is. Are there similar psychosomatics and attempts at conditioning within orthodox churches? Sadly, yes. But regardless of one’s personal experience in an SGM church and their take on what they or a loved one went through, all I ask is that you really consider or re-consider the use of the word cult. Don’t let the world define this word for you, or you may quickly find that they will call any body of believers you set up camp with a cult. There are some very generic definitions of “cult” bouncing around out there. Many so-called experts, with one broad sweep of a word-processor’s clickety-clack, dust all of Christianity into their basin labeled CULTS. The Roman Empire called Christianity at one time a “cult.” It made them feel better about serving up “cult” members to lions.
Here’s some thoughts from Irving Hexham, which I believe are helpful in governing our mouths (mine being first) in regard to this word:
Cults. Defining a cult is far more difficult than is often appreciated. Many evangelical Christians support the activities of Jews for Jesus and see them as a legitimate missionary group. But members of the Jewish community regard them as an evil and deceptive cult, a fact that well illustrates the problems surrounding the word. (Elwell, 289)
Hexham goes on to describe the history of the word “cult,” it’s usage, and how evangelizing the cults is a difficult ministry to administer (f.y.i., Hexham’s entry is in a book published in 1984, so this thought is all the more relevant in the present tense):
In the last twenty years a large number of evangelical books dealing with cults have appeared. Over the course of time these have increasingly concentrated on the allegedly fraudulent claims of the cults, the immoralities of their leaders, and the ways in which their followers are deceived. As a result, in many cases a transition has occurred from a theological argument refuting the claims of various religious groups to a reliance upon the psychological arguments which suggest that members of these groups are in some way brainwashed. This development poses a great danger for evangelical Christianity as can be seen from William Sargent’s The Battle for the Mind (1957). In this book Sargent takes evangelical conversion as a classic example of brainwashing. More recently this argument has been developed by Jim Siegelman and Flo Conway in their popular book Snapping (1979), where the experience of born-again Christians is compared to the process by which people join groups like the Moonies. (Elwell, 289)
Hexham elaborates on the legal quandary this has put evangelicals in with anti-conversion laws, such as the state of New York’s Lasher Amendment (11122-A, March 25, 1980) which have had a whiplash effect in Christendom’s relationship with the state, to put it mildly. He then finishes the entry with a cold splash of water on our faces:
Today the real problem of cults is the propaganda value of the word “cult” in a secular society. Although there are reliable statistics to show that the total membership of groups like the Children of God, the Unification Church (Moonies), and Hare Krishna is less than 35,000 in the United States and even fewer in other Western countries, these groups are presented as a major threat to society [1984 statistics]. As a result secularists are able to urge the acceptance of laws which replace religious freedom by a grudgingly granted religious toleration. Rather than persisting with the use of a word which has now become a propaganda weapon, the academic practice of calling such groups “new religious movements” should be followed [Josh McDowell appears to have done this in quite a bit of his work, referring to them as "today's religions," among others]. An alternative to this neutral terminology available for Christians who oppose such groups on theological grounds would be to revive the usage of “heretic” or simply call such groups “spiritual counterfeits.” Such a procedure would move the debate away from psychological theories that can be used by secularists against Christianity to the arena of theological discussion and religious argument. (Elwell, 289)
Years ago I would have disagreed with Hexham, but I strongly agree with him now as I have seen over the decades how society wants to litigate Christianity into either extreme, innocuous liberalism or mythological non-existence.
I believe the marrow of theology, the rock solid core, to which all of the arms of theology originate from, can be found in the essentials above. If one must use the word “cult,” it is a word in evangelical Christian culture taken to mean of a group being blatantly heretical in relationship with one of the above seven essentials of Evangelical Christianity -regardless of psychological systems employed and their devastating effects. The fact that the church universal has leaders that employ such psychological tactics does not relegate their existence into heresy, pure and simple.
My final answer to the question of whether or not Sovereign Grace Ministries is a “cult” will always be the same unless something radically changes:
No, we are not a cult.
…pk
——————-
BIBLIOGRAPHY
Elwell, Walter A. (Editor). Evangelical Dictionary of Theology. Grand Rapids, Michigan: Baker Book House Company, 1984.
Dearest PK–
I grew up in Mormonism. So I know a cult. To speak quite simply, a cult is a religious group with aberrrant theology, as well as aberrant social restrictons.
The chief sign of a cult is denial of the divinity of Christ, and the insistence that salvation is by works.
Therefore, I totally agree with you: SGM is many things, but a cult it is not.
Excellent brave post, my brother.
I dunno… that definition isn’t helpful either, because it renders every religious group outside of “little-O” orthodox Christianity (Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, etc.) a “cult.”
I’ve always considered “religious or quasi-religious group with uncritical devotion to their leader” to be the most helpful (in the sense that it defines something distinct from other terms) usage of the word.
But let’s say you’re right, PK: in that case, what word would you use to define a “religious or quasi-religious group with uncritical devotion to their leader”?
I’m of the ilk that SG has cult-like tendencies.
Yes, the Gospel is preached, but that which causes suffering amongst people here is a direct result of the creepy cultastic behavior.
Hi Travis:
Good to see you.
“religious or quasi-religious group with uncritical devotion to their leader” then puts one in the quandary of someone other than her/his self defining what “uncritical” is. Some would call my devotion to my senior pastor “disrespectful” while the others would say “cultic.” One could also seriously contend that those words are exactly what is at the core with Islam.
“religious or quasi-religious group with uncritical devotion to their leader.” This is how the world, for the most part, views Christianity, because we are to be in fact adherents -uncritically so- to our leader, Jesus Christ. I’d be willing to add what you have in quotes to the definition as long as it accompanied the aberrancy from the 1-7 essentnials list, but I think it more appropriately falls under the “while some groups have these characteristics, the essentials are at the core of their theology.”
Any time the psychological aspects (which includes uncritical devotion to a leader) are included in a cult’s definition, this is ammunition non-Christian groups and individuals use to slap onto Christianity as a whole, and they do it without fail.
This goes back to my tendency to lean toward Hexham’s desire to drop “cult” altogether. “Heresy” works just fine, as well as “non-Christian religions” and “new religions.” “Sect” poses problems, I believe. “Cult” and its Wikipedia 8+ definitions (and growing) is so generic, a high school drama club could be called a cult. Debate from that platform -minus the word cult and it’s many uses, (for me anyway)- would uncloud the issue and put the pursuance of theology in defining a particular group on the forefront.
Hope this makes sense?
Godspeed on project number three, btw.
…pk
PK,
Excellent post. Very courageous and necessary.
I have always hesitated in calling SGM a cult. At the most, I thought of the controlling aspect of my ex-leaders as creating a cult-like atmosphere. However, it is dangerous to use cult as a description, because the world could then accuse all Christians of being cult-like. After all, we are crazy about our Great Leader, and will die for His cause. Too easy to connect the dots.
We would do well to remember our own responsibility in giving up our freedom in Christ to be ruled over by leadership in a church. It is so much easier, convenient, and seemingly safe to follow a group of people who appear to be mature in the Lord. It requires little faith on our own part, little seeking of the Lord, because the holy man leading the group tells us what to do, where to live, who to marry, etc. So, if we find ourselves enslaved to the rule and traditions of man, I believe it is our own fault. We must repent (as I had to do) of living for the approval of leadership instead of living for the Lord. Any “cult-like” behavior by members of a controlling church has more to do with the heart of the person following than the heart of the person leading, I think. A believer who understands the great value of his/her freedom in Christ would never relinquish it to any man, no matter how wonderful and holy he seems to be.
I agree with you, PK, that SGM should not be defined as a cult. Legalistic would be the word that I would use to describe my own experiences within the church. That is the danger that many Christians face today. Thanks for dealing bravely with such an important topic.
Excellent PK!
Maybe it’s a generational thing. When I became a Christian in the early 80′s, cults were defined by their unorthodox beliefs.
SGM’s statement of faith is completely orthodox.
They certainly have some unBiblical practices, but orthopraxy seems to have died shortly after the death of the Apostles.
SGM is not a cult.
Travis-good to see you here again!
“Legalism,” to me, is not only more accurate, canary, but much more potent than “cult,” considering the post-modernistic interpretation of the word “cult” in our day and age. Legalism is also a subject the bible deals with rather bluntly, as well.
Good thoughts, and thanks.
…pk
Thanks Jim, and good to see you (sorry I’ve been a stranger)!
…pk
PK said:
“Legalism,” to me, is not only more accurate, canary, but much more potent than “cult…”
I whole-heartedly agree!
PK,
Interesting post. I really want to pray about it and read it again. I know each persons story is different, yet shades of the same, and I appreciate you leaving room for the little guy grow, and voice their opinion here, but PK from what I went through It seems right for me to use the work cult, and not church.
I loved the “body of Christ” I really did, tenderly, patiently, praying and serving. Now I am the one “they warn against”….bad things will happen. Its the cold blank stare, the forcing me to repent and to see my sin and again PK the “threats” from the body of Christ, I know it is hard to understand, unless you slip my shoes on and see why it is easy for me to agree with point #1. Maybe your church is not as cultish as the one I left.
I know you address alot in the above post. I think that in my heart, that SG is not a church, but I try really hard not to say that word and cause a weaker brother to stumble, not to mention the children.
I will pray some more. Thanks
Charlie:
I appreciate your post, and know it must have been difficult to recall a past experience like that.
It was a very difficult choice for me, as I knew a post like this, no matter where someone stands on the issue, would dredge up less than desirable memories, to say the least, of bad church experiences both personal and corporate.
Please understand that in my not wanting to label SGM a cult -and arguing for that position- I am not minimizing or even trivializing the horrible things people went through in any church, let aone SGM.
Quite the opposite, I have a desire for reform in SGM.
I am praying along with you, Charlie, and please know that I don’t carry any condemnation in my heart for those who felt/feel God led/is leading them or their families out of SGM.
Everyone:
I think we have to concede that some churches in SGM are worse than others. I understand the trickle-down theory of legalism, but I believe some particular individuals, i.e. yes-men, worsen their church depending on their level of maturity, genuine calling and just simply bad to horrible theological practices in their ecclesiology. In other words, they have no business being in or near leadership positions in church.
Just additional food for thought.
…pk
RT:
Thank you. Coming from you and your similar history to mine, that means a lot.
God bless.
…pk
I think the most important thing is to call it like it is:
a denomination of (mostly) controlling abusive clonish churches:
“First, abusive churches have a control-oriented style of leadership. Second, the leaders of such churches often use manipulation to gain complete submission from their members. Third, there is a rigid, legalistic lifestyle involving numerous requirements and minute details for daily life. Fourth, these churches tend to change their names often, especially once they are exposed by the media. Fifth, denouncing other churches is common because they see themselves as superior to all other churches. Sixth, these churches have a persecution complex and view themselves as being persecuted by the world, the media, and other Christian churches. Seventh, abusive churches specifically target young adults between eighteen and twenty-five years of age. The eighth and final mark of abusive churches is the great difficulty members have in getting out of or leaving these churches, a process often marked by social, psychological, or emotional pain.”
http://www.batteredsheep.com/abusive.html
I would love so much for SGM to change, but somehow I am not too optimistic.
Major changes and scrapping of man’s plans would have to occur.
Hi Ellie:
I appreciate your comments.
The bible, from cover to cover, details God’s scrapping of man’s plans. All I ask is that in the midst of calling it like it is, that you pray for our churches. We need major scrapping of our plans.
…pk
I am a staff member with the Jews for Jesus organization. You quoted a paragraph Elwell saying, “Many evangelical Christians support the activities of Jews for Jesus and see them as a legitimate missionary group. But members of the Jewish community regard them as an evil and deceptive cult, a fact that well illustrates the problems surrounding the word.”
Just to set the record straight concerning Jews for Jesus, please read this:
Spiritual Counterfeits Project (SCP) has been a frontline ministry confronting the occult, the cults, and the New Age movement and explaining why they are making an impact on our society. In the name of truth, sophisticated lies are fed to unwary people who live in and shape our world. Our mandate is to communicate with our generation by creating crossover material that alerts and informs about the very real dangers of the latest deceptions. It is a critical mission at a critical time.
I am told allegations have been made by individuals that the ministry of Jews for Jesus is a cult, or cult-like in its behavior, that the organization is spiritually abusive in practice. These allegations cannot be further from the truth. I have personally known both Moishe Rosen, the organization’s founder, and David Brickner, the current executive director, for many years. I have been impressed with the organization they represent and the care these men have shown in presenting the historic gospel message with clarity and with integrity.
Let me say that knowing a number of Jews for Jesus staff over the years has provided me with added respect for how Jews for Jesus cares for its own staff and encourages individuality and creativity in approaches to their mission goals. People are trusted and given a lot of latitude in their decisions. This is the antithesis of cult-like behavior.
I also believe that Jews for Jesus have held true to the gospel message under pressures that would have broken the backs of most ministries, showing character and resolve under a range of very trying situations, including considerable resistance from the very people they are trying to reach. I am more than pleased to commend this unique and frontline ministry to others as one with high accountability and high achievement in the field of Jewish evangelism.
Tal Brooke, President and Chairman, Spiritual Counterfeits Project
http://www.scp-inc.org
You can also learn about us at http://www.jewsforjesus.org.
Matt Sieger
You quote Elwell as saying, “Many evangelical Christians support the activities of Jews for Jesus and see them as a legitimate missionary group. But members of the Jewish community regard them as an evil and deceptive cult, a fact that well illustrates the problems surrounding the word.” I am a staff member of the Jews for Jesus organization. Please read the following:
Spiritual Counterfeits Project (SCP) has been a frontline ministry confronting the occult, the cults, and the New Age movement and explaining why they are making an impact on our society. In the name of truth, sophisticated lies are fed to unwary people who live in and shape our world. Our mandate is to communicate with our generation by creating crossover material that alerts and informs about the very real dangers of the latest deceptions. It is a critical mission at a critical time.
I am told allegations have been made by individuals that the ministry of Jews for Jesus is a cult, or cult-like in its behavior, that the organization is spiritually abusive in practice. These allegations cannot be further from the truth. I have personally known both Moishe Rosen, the organization’s founder, and David Brickner, the current executive director, for many years. I have been impressed with the organization they represent and the care these men have shown in presenting the historic gospel message with clarity and with integrity.
Let me say that knowing a number of Jews for Jesus staff over the years has provided me with added respect for how Jews for Jesus cares for its own staff and encourages individuality and creativity in approaches to their mission goals. People are trusted and given a lot of latitude in their decisions. This is the antithesis of cult-like behavior.
I also believe that Jews for Jesus have held true to the gospel message under pressures that would have broken the backs of most ministries, showing character and resolve under a range of very trying situations, including considerable resistance from the very people they are trying to reach. I am more than pleased to commend this unique and frontline ministry to others as one with high accountability and high achievement in the field of Jewish evangelism.
Tal Brooke, President and Chairman, Spiritual Counterfeits Project
http://www.scp-inc.org
You can also read about us at http://www.jewsforjesus.org. Thanks!
Matt Sieger
Mr. Sieger:
You said:
and then you quote Tal Brooke of Spiritual Counterfeits Project as saying:
Mr. Seiger, it is apparent you didn’t read my post, and have decided to take someone’s word for it (or it is your own rapid-fire interpretation after scanning and not reading my post) that I accused your ministry of being a cult. By using Tal Brooke’s quote, you’ve made some ugly charges in that regard toward Irving Hexham, me, the Evangelical Dictionary of Theology and SGMrefuge.
While I appreciate your courtesy in how you correspond, I don’t appreciate the discurteous misrepresentation you’ve committed.
The context of the article I quoted (which included segments from Irving Hexham’s entry on Cults in the Evangelical Dictionary of Theology [EDT]) does not call Jews for Jesus a cult. In fact, Irving Hexham (not Elwell, as you stated… Walter Elwell is the editor of the Evangelical Dictionary of Theology, as it states clearly in the bibliography section of this post) a volume in no way at all hostile to Jews for Jesus) illustrates how partcular members of the Jewish community calling Jews for Jesus a cult shows the perilousness of the word “cult” when in the hands of non-Christian religions. You’ve not only taken Hexham’s quote out of context, you’ve wrenched it out, misrepresented my article, risked many reading this for misinterpreting my article, an article which isn’t about Jews for Jesus in the first place.
My post in no way or fashion calls Jews for Jesus a cult. Irving Hexham does not call Jews for Jesus a cult. I merely cited Hexham’s words in his very obvious observation that it is asinine to call Jews for Jesus a “cult,” in illustrating how the world has adopted the word “cult” to erroneously describe evangelical Christianity. You’ve landed like a ton of bricks on a post that quoted an article which in fact does the opposite of what you are charging: it defends the integrity and good reputation of your organization!
I would appreciate your response to my reply to your charges here, and I’m also posting every word of Irving Hexham’s I quoted, again, in context, so there is no misunderstanding:
Quote number 1:
That “word” he is referring to is the word “cult,” and his example and context of this is that if the word “cult” can be applied to an evangelical organization like Jews for Jesus, then the word “cult” presents overy obvious problems!
Quote number 2:
Quote number 3:
and they all can be found in, once again:
I appreciate you taking the time to read my post in context, read the quotes in context, and doing a just review of it rather than a rapid-fire drive by critique.
I am hoping this was nothing more than a misunderstanding that resulted from a premature response to my post, a result of this post being obviously only partially examined by you. I bear you no ill will, but I would caution you in how dangerously cavalier you’ve been in completely and utterly misrepresenting me, Irving Hexham, the reputable Evangelical Dictionary of Theology, and SGMrefuge.com.
Sincerely in Christ, and as a past, present and future supporter of the mission goals of Jews for Jesus (and my parents and many aunts and uncles were/are too)…
Protestant Knight.
Protestant Knight,
I admit that I did scan through your article and did not read it in its entirety. I also admit that I mistakenly attributed the quoted paragraph to Elwell rather than to Hexham. My concern was that readers might interpret the Hexham paragraph to imply that we were a cult, and I responded with a statement from Tal Brooke dispelling that notion. Now that I have re-read the Hexham paragraph, and have read the blog more closely, I agree with you that the Hexham paragraph was not implying that we are a cult. I apologize for reading a bit too quickly and carelessly. It was not at all my intention to misrepresent you, Hexham, or anyone else. Frankly, I don’t think I did so. I simply quoted Tal Brooke regarding our ministry so that readers would be clear about who we are. If my comments hurt you or anyone else, I apologize for that.
Hi PK and all. I’ve been out of pocket for awhile. Still catching up on the past several posts. PK, I hope your health is improving. I’ll join the others in praying for you.
I’ve never called PDI/SGM a cult either, though I understand those who do. It’s a tough subject. For a group who states their Christian doctrines as clearly as SGM does, they demonstrate, in reality, an appalling lack of grace, a foundational component of Christianity. I believe it was C.S. Lewis who said that grace was the defining difference between Christianity and other religions. How can SGM be so right on all their listed doctrines, but miss the gem of our faith?
In addition, there is a distinct elitism and exclusivity that gives the feeling of a cult. In the city where I live, the SGMers were so tight that for awhile they were moving into the same neighborhoods to be near one another. Onlookers, some Christian, some not, thought this was odd and called it their cult-de-sac.
I think that some of SGM’s encouraged behaviors are odd and ingrown. They set themselves up to be called a cult, even if it is a watered down version of the original definition of the word.
I’ve called them a cult, plenty of times. And still do. To the same degree as other churches or ministries or organizations? No. Certainly not. Obviously not.
When are we going to talk about what makes certain people drawn to “cults” or “cult-like” churches in the first place? You have to admit, there are some commonalities among those who were members of cults (or abberant churches, or authoritarian churches, whatever word you choose to use – people like me, and hundreds of thousands of others) If you ask them after they left what drew them in and why they stayed, what do you think they would say? Why don’t we ever discuss this? Maybe if we talked about what drew us to SGM in the first place, it would help us identify the strongholds and therefore release us from the bondage and keep us from repeating the behavior yet again.
If leaders don’t have people following them, them don’t have power or control. And if we help people to understand why they are following these leaders in the first place, we can effectively disengage the leadership from abusive power by cutting off the responses. If they truly care about these people, then when the people change and start following the Spirit of God and not idolizing the church or the leaders, these same leaders would praise God for the growth and not feel threatened.
When asked why I have left the CLC, my brief answer is that I found that the extra-biblical mandates and extremely authoritarian structure crowded out the gospel for me.
I would say that cults take varying amounts of truth and twist it to control others–perhaps even from a sincere attempt to help others. SGM has done just this. SGM fits this generally understood definition (denotation) of a “cult”–it may not fit your more specialized understanding (connotation). What term would you use?
Good thoughts, all.
acme:
For myself, I wouldn’t use any “term” to classify SGM, as I don’t believe it’s a cult. I’ve noticed many people here have trouble even calling us a ministry, as they feel we do nothing of the sort. Based on the experiences of some (and myself), the shortest answer I could come up with is that SGM is a ministry/organization known to wade in the pools of legalism. Legalism is by no means a wimpy term, and the Apostle Paul would have a lot to say about any ministry being tainted by it in the least; Legalism is a root to all kinds of evil in regard to performance, treatment of the flock and rulebooks that imply adherence for slavation.
To say that SGM meanders regularly into the realm of substituting grossly insufficient human works for the infinitely work of Christ (that is, legalism)… well, for me it’s quite shameful, and the primary cause I seek reform in SGM.
The word “cult” was classically not entrenched in the sociological terminology of psychological abuse systems as it is nowadays. It ["cult"] once meant that from an evangelical perspective, a “cult” was a group that denied one or more of the essential doctrines of the faith (the Trinity, the deity of Christ, etc). ”Cult” was put into the psychology and sociology arena by secular camps that now designate Christianity itself as cult. As I said in the post, like Hexham I would favor a return of Christians using terms like “heresy,” or “non-Christian religion,” or “new religion.” Even if one used the term in regard to SGM, and while I may disagree with it, at least there is a launching pad to debate from. “Cult” is way too general nowadays to do any good in contending for the truth.
Just my thoughts.
G’night all… more thoughts tomorow.
…pk
Juli:
Excellent thoughts, all of them.
I know I sound like a broken record (apologies for this), but I think before one even begins a discussion about “cults,” there’s the whole issue of scaling the language barrier. There are die-hards like me who after studying the cults for decades, the red flag(s) for me -before stamping it with the name ”cult”- is an aberrancy on the essentials (those big red seven in my post) that scripture lays out for us. If we call an organization a cult solely based on the psychological aspects of it, then, like secualr society, we can begin slapping “cult” onto many, many organizations based on an individual’s subjectivism. I look at the seven essentials as just grounding me in scripture rather than textbooks, for lack of a better description. I don’t criticize secular efforts at analyzing aberrant groups, but given the nature of the subject, I’d rather Scripture, even above and beyondsociety or even ”the local church,” to be my guide.
Please understand this is a personal guideline for me, and I’m not trying to enforce any standards on anyone else. But the term “cult” has all but been stripped of meaning over the decades.
That being said, I am in wholehearted agreement with you in that I do think the issue of controlling groups and/or individuals and the pitfalls that allow us in the flock to be under their thumb should be addressed.
Any of this make any sense, or do I need more coffee?
…pk
“I look at the seven essentials as just grounding me in scripture rather than textbooks, for lack of a better description.”
Hmm… in what “family of churches” have I heard that reason given for oh-so-many dogmatic stances? ;-D (I’m just poking fun, PK.)
I see what you’re saying, except that (a) it’s only a “classical” definition of the word in the sense that evangelical (so we’re dealing with what? about 200 years, tops?) cult-watch groups and individuals (how objective were they in setting up the definition(s)?) typically define “cult” in the manner you’ve described.
But if we’re in agreement that SGM is heavy on legalism, and looking at Paul’s letter to the Church in Galatia is all we need to see how seriously “aberrant in the essentials” legalism is to biblical Christianity… why isn’t legalism one of the criteria for defining a “cult”? Could it be that some of these same cult-watchers were in churches which could have been defined as “legalist,” so they watered down the meaning of “cult” to give themselves a free pass?
I’m just saying… “cult” isn’t a canonical term.
I have been so cautious in entering into this discussion. After leaving the liturgical church I was raised in, I did not turn to a cult, but to the OCCULT. There is such a huge difference between the two, yet they are so similar. They both draw one to focus on something other than Christ and the Cross. The cult – you are directed to man; the occult – to yourself, for control over your own life and destiny. I stated earlier in my initial introduction that I have not experienced or seen any of what is written here about SGM. Yet, “out of the mouths of two or more, a thing shall be confirmed,:”, therefore I sit in deference to the Word, and the many broken , wounded people I have seen here.
If I had experienced any of this, in my SG church, I would have run the other way. I guess what I am trying to express is that PK, there are dedicated, God Seeking, Christ directing, men in this ministry. Men who weekly point us to Christ, not themselves, who admonish us to stay in the Word to confirm their teaching, who are open to discussion and questions, who weeky use the word to help us draw closer to HIM and not THEM. It grieves me to see it at times referred to as a cult.
Acme, a cult NEVER refers you to the cross, as your redemptive hope. It will never represent Christ as the sacrificial lamb who ALONE is the saving atonement. If we use the blanket term CULT to refer to those we feel are controlling, then we must look also to most fundamental denominations as cults due to their doctrinal differences…One large denomination refuses to accept the gifts of the spirit. Are they a cult because the DENOMINATION tells everyone that they cannot be a “?” if they believe otherwise? Then there is a denomination that tells us concerning the gifts that you can only receive and operate in one particular way. Are they a cult? See, these restrictions/interpretations of the word are all MAN defined, just as SGM is referred to here. Is the denomination that considers a glass of wine a cult? That is legalism. Is the denomination that requires “holiness”: dressing a cult or in legalism?
All of these denominations point to the cross, to Christ, Resurrection and saving blood of the Redeemer, but they are legalistic. I feel we need to be very careful, as, to choose our words wisely. Regardless of the hurts and wounds experienced in all this, WE are still accountable for our words, ideas, and untruths that we may propagate. Healing & wholeness are hard to grasp when we hold on to misconceptions. The enemy can use those to keep anger and pain alive. When we see a situation for what it really is, then there is room for truth to allow us to walk out of the hurt. Legalistic? YES….CULT……NO!!!
I cannot/will not refer to SGM in above post as legalistic, as I have not experienced this. I was referring to the referenced denominaltional differences.
Hi
It has been a while since I posted here but have been following the comments on this blog.
I noticed the following article in the Washington Times about Larry Tomczak and includes a brief mention of his split with SGM:
http://washingtontimes.com/new.....l-a-force/
For some reason I wasn’t able to insert additional comments.
I prefer to use the words “cultish” or “cult-like” to describe SGM. I wouldn’t go so far as to describe it as a cult.
Steve
“See, these restrictions/interpretations of the word are all MAN defined…”
That’s the whole problem right there: “cult” is never defined in Scripture.
Its original (c. 1600, adopted into English from French, which had picked it up from Latin) meaning was basically orthopraxy: those rites, customs and traditions carried out by “the faithful” in a particular religious group. This was in contrast to the group’s orthodoxy (its doctrines/beliefs). So for any religious group in the time of the Renaissance, the “cult” was collectively their group services, regular prayer times, rites and ceremonies, etc.
(According to Wikipedia, “sections in newspapers giving the schedule of worship at Catholic churches are headed Culte Catholique; the section giving the schedule of Protestant churches is headed culte réformé.”)
In the 1800s, it came to define “devotion to a person or thing.”
It wasn’t until the 1920s that certain evangelical groups began to define the word in the way PK is using it.
So that, PK, is why I’m challenging the claim that your definition of the word is its “classical” usage: it’s actually the most revisionist definition we have of the word.
Yikes, I never finished that middle paragraph! It’s corrected now. =)
Mimi said: Acme, a cult NEVER refers you to the cross, as your redemptive hope. It will never represent Christ as the sacrificial lamb who ALONE is the saving atonement.
I think we are all missing the point here. Legalism IS another gospel – just read Galatians. And another gospel means: NOT Christ. Another gospel means that CHrist is NOT “the sacrificail lamb who alone is the saving atonement.” It does not matter what lip service SGM is giving – they may say and sing all the right things – well so did the Pharisees. Why do you think Jesus put so much emphasis on the fruit, not the words? Paul did as well. As did James.
What is the FRUIT of SGM? We have to get our eyes off the words being said that give the apperance of sound doctrine. IF it were sound doctrine, then the fruit would be in keeping with godliness and righteousness, as the Word teaches. When the fruit doesn’t line up – and it CLEARLY DOES NOT as so many has personally testified to – then we have to stop and ask ourselves why.
SGM is legalistic, and legalism is another gospel. I dont’ care how many times they say their “Solas” and push “grace” books – it is all an illusion! It looks sound on the surface, but in reality, the teachings are another gospel, because they cause SOME people to seek salvation, perfection, joy, peace, hope, everything in either the Church, the pastors, or a variety of other means. It produced idolators and legalists – how can that be sound doctrine??
My original question remains – why don’t we discuss these people (like myself) who were led astray – what was in our hearts to predispose us, (for lack of a better word) to fall into the traps of legalism, idolatry, fear, etc…
clearly there are some without “whatever” in their hearts and they are able to worship in Spirit and in Truth at SGM churches – how, I haven’t a clue. But I won’t go so far as to say every single person in SGM is a legalist or an idolator, but I will say there are MANY MORE than would admit to it. And that is the first step – not just going on an on about what is or isn’t wrong with SGM and the doctrines, but WHY did these doctrines affect us the way they did? And how can we learn from that?
I apologize for perhaps coming across so strongly. I’ve just grown tired of all the talk and want to see people set free. And freedom comes when we take a look inside, and not just around us.
I’m very sorry that so many comments are going into moderation.
I’m back in my home office from traveling, and will clear comments stuck in moderation immediately.
This is an excellent conversation-I’ll do my best to keep it real time.
Travis & co.:
I’m not seeking to be a Walter Martin or Ravi Zacharias. When I use the term “cult,” it’s in my aforementioned way, and it’s simply an alternative. I am fully aware of the word’s origins, and if “classical” sense was inadequate, then let me substitute that with “evangelical usage.”
Once again, I actually don’t like the use of the word, and not just because of its reference to SGM, but I’ve heard atheists use it a LOT toward ALL of Christianity, and not just particular Christian denominations.
Also, there seems to be this continuing theme of trying to sum up SGM in one word, which I believe is completely unnecessary. Should we be examined? Absolutely.
If you want a word for SGM, keep in mind that mainline denominations have churches that are guilty of the same legalistic practices that can be found in SGM. Its frequency in leadership and churches is irrelevant, as the degrees are varying. To use Grudemology, the church can be more or less pure in these areas.
To let the world outside define for us in the church what “cult” means, that’s swimming in the relativistic pool of being able to call anything… well… anything. There’s nothing but grinning cardsharks in that pool; we’re playing their game and they consistently stack the deck in their favor. If my definition is the most revisionist version there is of the word, it cements my point in needing to stay away from it and return to “heresy,” “new religions” and “non-Christian religions.”
Also, if we let “legalism” be a guideline so that we can use the word “cult,” then we’re right back to calling everybody a cult.
…pk
Juli:
Once again, good thoughts.
My only disagreement: I’d be careful in characterizing all of SGM as preaching another gospel, because this simply isn’t true, and it’s part of the whole issue here in regard to tossing around the world “cult.” I’ve been in some churches that do park on legalism, and some that don’t and are thriving (and no, I’m not sharing which ones as I don’t want bread crumb trails to my identity… I hope everyone can understand this).
The one I am currently in does expositional preaching that consistently returns again and again to the sufficiency and salvation found in Jesus Christ. I’m not saying this the way, I’m just saying this is the short answer on what’s going on in my church. God has been gracious in that we seem to be able again and again to spit out the bones and retain the meat. I’ve been in other SGM churches that are exactly like the way others here have described: cold, malignant in practice and man-centered. I have been in and visited non-SGM churches like this. This doesn’t scream “cult” to me, it screams “legalism” and/or “heresy” at a minimum on the local church level and very strongly arguable on the hierarchy’s top quarter. This won’t be dealt with effectively until there is a top to bottom (mostly top) change within SGM, which is the whole reason I am here.
We need reform, and you better believe they/we are watching here.
Hope I didn’t get off on a tangent.
…pk
Also, if we let “legalism” be a guideline so that we can use the word “cult,” then we’re right back to calling everybody a cult.
PK, you are abosolutely right. Since being away from SGM, I have seen churches that follow legalism, one in paricular that is even worse than what I experienced. It is everywhere in the body, in one form or another. Thankfully, there are also men and women out there who lead faithfully, full of grace. Cult is a word that could backfire on us one day, as there is a spirit in the world that would really like to classify all Christians as nut-cases.
I never forget the wonderful things I learned during my time at PDI/SGM that helped to give me a sound marriage, a desire to please the Lord, and follow His will above my own. If I didn’t notice the little leaven of legalism in the beginning, it was because I knew so little. As the legalism grew, it began to strangle my relationship with the Lord, to the point that I had to flee the very people who had grounded me in the faith. However, I will always be grateful to the leaders and friends in PDI who helped, in the early years, to build some of my foundation in knowing God.
Juli,
I agree that we must look to ourselves for the reasons why we are drawn to leaglistic churches. I posted that after reading PK’s thoughts about cults. No one commented on it, until you. Yet, it is a very important matter that we understand our own responsibility in allowing ourselves to submit to legalism. This would be helpful for all those who read the posts, here. Why do we allow people to take our freedom in Christ?
A good subject to delve into, I think.
Also, if we let “legalism” be a guideline so that we can use the word “cult,” then we’re right back to calling everybody a cult.
Nope, just the legalists.
Okay, so to make sure I’m tracking with you, PK:
1. You know how “cult” has been traditionally used since its adoption into the English language;
2. You choose to instead adopt a “Christian–ghettoized” definition of the word;
3. Once your esoteric definition is in place, you insist that the word does not apply to SGM.
You know, the key to ending this disagreement is for you to drop #2. You’re one of a very few people here who gauge “cult” by the seven–item list you included in your post. Pretty much everyone else here uses the 19th century definition of the word. In fact, I would venture to say that you’re the one muddying the waters here by presenting your problematic definition.
PK, I was teasing before, but now I’m beginning to think you really are engaging in what cult-watch groups call “bombastic redefinition of the familiar.”
You said it yourself: “heresy” already means what you want “cult” to mean, so your definition of “cult” makes the word redundant. The answer is not to abandon the word, but to abandon the redundant meaning! Classically, the word had a unique meaning, and most folks today still get that meaning; otherwise, “the cult of Jobs” wouldn’t have become a mainstream phrase describing “people with a fanatic devotion to all things Apple (but who nonetheless refrain from performing mass-suicides).”
Classically defined, SGM qualifies as a “cult.” This is not relativistic. This is linguistic. The Bible should be brought to bear in etymological matters, but not for words which never make an appearance in Scripture.
Otherwise, I’d like to see a “Biblical” definition of the following terms, currently chained to the ambiguous relativism that is the English language:
• telephone
• computer
• transatlantic
• intergalactic
• subatomic
• radioactive
• leap year
Perhaps we as Christians have a moral and spiritual obligation to abandon these words, too?
PK said: This won’t be dealt with effectively until there is a top to bottom (mostly top) change within SGM, which is the whole reason I am here.
I guess that is why you and I are not tracking PK. I don’t see the point in focusing on leadership, the top, or SGM itself to bring about reform. To me it is focusing on the symptoms, and not the heart of the problem.
I think we will find that if we examine the hearts of the people affected by legalism, authoritarian churches, etc we will find common denominators. And those common denominators will also (shock!) be evident in the hearts of leadership. For many of the same reasons we are lured in, they were as well. Only the roles were different, they lead, we followed.
And until we examine the hearts of the sheep, we won’t have insight into the hearts of the leaders. And if we don’t address the hearts of the leaders, then no change will come, we will just be spinning our wheels talking about the symptoms of the “problem” all day long.
Which, incidentally, is exactly what the enemy wants us to do. If we keep biting and devouring each other, no progress is made, and no love evident. We can’t simply point out the behaviors of the leadership and think that will bring change – if we are, then we are no better than them in their attempts to “change” us by telling us what we did wrong. While fruit is helpful in identifying problems it is never the solution to the problem. We gotta get our eyes back on the hearts of the people.
Juli -
I agree with almost all of what you are saying, but to paraphrase some of Travis’ understanding of cult. Many in SG don’t just admire CJ and his teachings-they have a passionate devotion to him that is “cult” like. His basic doctrines may not rise to the level of Evangelical usage of the word cult (denial of the trinity, etc..), but he does enjoy a zealous respect among the faithul SG crowd that is beyond healthy, IMO.
Just recognizing that may help someone to ask themselves why? And you’re right, until we look back at ourselves and why we chose this form of legalism-we will not be able to change.
I’m agree with Travis and would like to add that while defining the word “cult” classically might make some people define all Christians as “cult members”, it doesn’t really matter. If someone is going to come against Christians, definitions don’t matter. Enough of us here have been blindsided by SGM’s “mist-ifying” redefinition of terms enough to know that when you don’t play according to “the rules”, you are out of the game. Even if you follow the rules, they make up new ones.
It’s all a big game of musical chairs, those of us “on the outs” just had the chairs pulled out from under us before those that are still in the game. If you haven’t seen what’s going on in your SGM church, it just means that the ones making up the rules and pulling the chairs haven’t gotten to your part of the circle yet.
We get out of the game by recognizing it for what it is. Simple as that. Some of us don’t see it for awhile and some of us see it right away. Some of us don’t see it till we get the chair yanked out from under us by our friends. Some of us want to be part of the “popular crowd” and knowingly play the game anyway, some of us think we are really are part of “a family” and find out that the rules changed unbeknownst to us. When we find out the truth, we try to be reasonable and convince “those in charge” that that musical chairs isn’t the game that we were supposed to play and people are getting hurt. But those in charge don’t care as long as they’re not the ones left sitting in the dust.
We can help by pulling the dusty ones up and putting salve on their knees and showing them that Jesus has many happy circles of children on His playground. We can help by showing others that “musical chairs” isn’t a very wise game to play, in the long run.
*that’s supposed to be “I agree with Travis”.
Musicman, of course not everyone looks at CJ or their own pastors in this way, but I think it IS fair to say there is an unusual amount of personal devotion to the churches, the pastors, and SGM as a whole. Because of this fruit (evidence) that is being produced it strongly suggests two things:
1) the hearts of the followers have some common denominators
2) the teachings of the leaders have some common denominators
I think we’ve discussed at length (and depth) the teachings..and at times we’ve even ventured into the motives of the leaders – this is done WITHOUT looking at the motives of the followers, which is not good. It’s time to move our focus to the followers and it begins with each of us personally.
discerning spirits is just part of it, we also have to discern what it is in our own hearts. There are three forces at work (I’m not counting the work of the Spirit of course, which is the positive force at work of course)
1) the work of the spiritual forces (spirits)
2) the condition of the hearts and therefore actions of the leaders
3) the condition of the hearts and therefore the reactions of the followers
Until we do examine these three areas with humility, honesty, and in love, we are simply dancing around the problems and fail to get an accurate picture of things.
I am certainly NOT a scientist nor is Science my strong point, but if we were conducting a scientific experiment, the scientific method which uses a progression of logic is helpful. How do we apply that logic to the above “forces” at work in SGM?
simply, the scientific method is this:
characterizations (observations, research)
hypothesis
predictions
experiments to test the hypothesis
conclusions/findings
When a scientific experiment is conducted, one must take into account all variables in order to accurately test the hypothesis. In fact, all variables should be taken into consideration in order to even make your observations in the first place. Otherwise your findings have been compromised.
Sorry for the Science tangent, but it seems to me we haven’t taken all the variables into consideration (because we’ve not examined the hearts of the followers) when conducting our observations, characterizations, hypothesis, predicitons and conclusions…therefore, our findings in all these areas are inaccurate at least in part, and are compromised.
we (myself included) have made all sorts of statements as to why things are the way they are, we’ve guessed, prophesied, discerned, exhorted, rebuked, disagreed, we’ve done all this and yet we have done it apart from all the facts. I don’t know the hearts of the men in leadership, but I can, through the Holy Spirit, discern what it is my own heart, what drew me into SGM and contributed to me staying there three years, and then I can somehow better understand the deceptiveness of sin, and what contributes to the practices we currently see happening in SGM.
As I have done this in my own heart, it has made me be able to understand how my pastor could align himself with SGM 6 years ago after having been independent for 20 years. What would make someone do that? Why did he fall/walk into an authoritarian structure that will ultimately strip him of all control that he so desperately wanted in the first place? I don’t know exactly of course because I don’t know his heart, but at least my observations and consequently my intercession will be more effective because I have taken the time to look at the heart. I’m not judging him, in fact by looking at my own heart first (taking the plank out) I am able to see more clearly the speck (or plank) in my brother’s eye. And it has grown graciousness in me that I didn’t have 4 months ago, and I am able to pray for him with true love for his welfare and soul.
PK,
Something interesting to throw into the pot: I just heard on the radio that a media person (?) described President-Elect Obama’s following as “cult-like”. Makes me ponder more about what you are saying.
Juli-
I agree with you-it was when I saw my own failings and how I had done many of the same things, that I started to repent, and then pray for my old friends and church. Even though they didn’t “play nice or by the rules” , as Ellie puts it, I was able to understand why they might be so mean.
Travis:
Wrote a big long post, hit submit, and got schooled in the you-shoulda-saved-it-in-Word university, as that comment is now lost in the cyberspace dead zone. I promise I will respond to your post, and everyone here as well, as time permits. promise this isn’t a copout, folks, life happens, and to God be the glory.
I’ll be at my couch later with a laptop and hope to respond.
Good discussions, all, and I really appreciate you keeping it civil. Good example to me of the love of Christ, and to blend truth with that love is a good thing.
Juli, I’m tempted to take the points you raised and post on them (promise I won’t steal, I will quote you directly, and send you a copy before posting) not to critique points so much as to start a discussion with them. In thinking about your points, God revealed to me some significant blind-sidedness in some areas, so thanks or that. I’m very grateful.
LOL Travis… I was laughing so hard at your list at the end. Outstanding post. But put your seatbelt on for my response (and Travis cleans his goggles nonchalantly while mumbling, “bring it.”).
…pk
I would respond, but you’ve taken care of that for me. All I can do now is chuckle over your vivid depiction of me and mutter, “oh yeah, I forgot to add ‘podcast’.”
PK, any discussion on the points I’ve raised, even to critique, is certainly welcome. And you certainly don’t need my permission, to send me anything first, my approval or anything else – “be released” as Jim would say!
Seriously, this is your blog, do what you will..
by the way Travis, congratulations on #3…your blog cracks me up as usual…
“not an actual Seitler” hehe
Travis:
Your comments with my responses (in bold):
Okay, so to make sure I’m tracking with you, PK:
1. You know how “cult” has been traditionally used since its adoption into the English language;
Yes. I can read (and write) in English (even 19th century English, with only occasional peeks in the Victorian Dictionary).
2. You choose to instead adopt a “Christian–ghettoized” definition of the word;
If “Christian-ghettoized” definition means not “Postmodern-salad-bar-ized-so-I-can-slap-it-on-any-group,” then yes, GUILTY as charged.
3. Once your esoteric definition is in place, you insist that the word does not apply to SGM.
You know, the key to ending this disagreement is for you to drop #2.
Not a chance. This didn’t just fall out of my left nostril (although “esoteric left nostril” sounds rather cool and I’m positive I battled one once in a D&D game long ago; failing to roll a natural 20, I died from a snot-bomb), it was gleaned from decades of research of commentary and research on “cults” from an evangelical perspective. Since I’m not dropping #2, GUILTY again.
You’re one of a very few people here who gauge “cult” by the seven–item list you included in your post. Pretty much everyone else here uses the 19th century definition of the word.
Imagine my nail-biting horror at not being included with everyone else. And then imagine that scene is fiction. The latter would be correct. By the way, I won’t apologize for not throwing my full support behind a definition of anything relating to or affecting the Christian church if it has been given a seal of secular approval after being sifted through a 19th century postmodern/Darwinian blender. Call me a nutty conspiracy theorist, I’ve been called much worse.
continued…
And speaking of “everyone else here” using a 19th century version of the word cult, I’m curious as to why you make this case when you don’t use a 19th century version of the word. Because the definition you give on your website
http://travis.webseitler.com/t.....ministries
is cited from Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult
(an entry which claims there are at least 8 definitions of the word so far) which in turn cites Louis Jolyon West’s definition of a “totalist cult.” What Wikipedia neglects to point out is their omission of a pretty important parenthetical reference immediately after the first word. Wikipedia starts the definition as “A cult is a group or movement…” when in fact West’s original text says, “Cult (totalist type): a group or movement…” This may seem like small potatoes, but the original text clarifies “totalist type” as one of several subcategories of the word “cult.” West later used that definition in an article (co-written by Paul R. Martin) titled “Pseudo-Identity and the Treatment of Personality Change in Victims of Captivity and Cults.” There may be an online link to this article (it’s been ages since I read it online, but I recognized the West definition immediately on Wikipedia; the book sits on my bookshelf) It’s a pretty harrowing read, and the trivializing of it with the “Cult of Jobs” example (below) you tried to school me with in a get-with-the-program-on-your-definition method only confirms my point; there’s so many definitions and contexts wrapped up in this word, it’s like a buffet line for anyone who wants to apply the word “cult” to anything.
In fact, I would venture to say that you’re the one muddying the waters here by presenting your problematic definition.
In regard to the word “cult,” the waters were so thick with drying mud before I ever entered them, you could build Mormon Temple sandcastles out of the stuff. The International Cultic Studies Association (ICSA; an organization that is about as secular as you can get), in an article titled “The Definitional Ambiguity of the Word Cult and ICSA’s Mission,”
http://www.icsahome.com/infose.....iquity.htm
acknowledges at least 13 subcategories of cults branching off of at least 8 definitions of “cult,” All of which, by their own admission, can be used “properly or improperly.” This has about as much profundity as drying paint. I’ll stack my seven guidelines drawn from scripture and the work of at least four reputable evangelical apologists against the 8+3 +?+?+? secular definitions and subs seven days out of the week.
PK, I was teasing before, but now I’m beginning to think you really are engaging in what cult-watch groups call “bombastic redefinition of the familiar.”
Secular society bombastically redefined this word long before I even approached it, so I really doubt I’m going to wreck someone’s world by offering something that at least tries to wink at conviction. But I’ve been called bombastic more than once. GUILTY as charged.
You said it yourself: “heresy” already means what you want “cult” to mean, so your definition of “cult” makes the word redundant. The answer is not to abandon the word, but to abandon the redundant meaning! Classically, the word had a unique meaning, and most folks today still get that meaning; otherwise, “the cult of Jobs” wouldn’t have become a mainstream phrase describing “people with a fanatic devotion to all things Apple (but who nonetheless refrain from performing mass-suicides).”
Standing around the water cooler, I never heard anyone refer to the “Heresy of Jobs” or a “Heresy of Personality.” I don’t believe picking that word is a redundancy, and even if it were, it’s very obvious society hasn’t quite mangled it as severely as it has “cult.” Yep. I’m stickin’ with heresy. GUILTY.
Classically defined, SGM qualifies as a “cult.”
Then, classically defined, so does my nephew’s scout troop. Time to find a new word. GUILTY as charged.
This is not relativistic. This is linguistic. The Bible should be brought to bear in etymological matters, but not for words which never make an appearance in Scripture.
Really? How about the word Trinity? It appears zero times in Scripture, yet I think the Bible has a LOT to say about that word, and -call me a radical- I think the Bible should inform its etymology within the Christian body as well.
Otherwise, I’d like to see a “Biblical” definition of the following terms, currently chained to the ambiguous relativism that is the English language:
• telephone
• computer
• transatlantic
• intergalactic
• subatomic
• radioactive
• leap year
I never framed the English language as ambiguous relativism; my high school teachers and college professors already did that. I only framed secular society’s definition (or non-definition) of “cult” as ambiguous relativism, and that’s being kind.
Perhaps we as Christians have a moral and spiritual obligation to abandon these words, too?
No, just a moral and spiritual obligation to stand our ground.
…pk
Postmodernism in the 1800s?! You’re making my head hurt, PK. (LOL)
Okay, okay… here’s what I’m trying to say: this word “cult” had a general usage in the English language from the 1600s on, but in the 1950s certain Evangelical groups basically decided (with shades of then-contemporary McCarthyism) that, if they abandoned “heretics” as their label for deviant “Evangelical-ish” groups and called them “dangerous cults” instead, they could get the general public to help them on what the public would otherwise deem a “witch hunt.”
So these 50s-era evangelicals pulled Scriptural criteria for identifying heretical teaching, and instead of calling the applicable groups “heretics,” they called them “cults.” That’s the “bombastic redefinition” I’m talking about. I suppose you aren’t actively engaging in it, so much as blindly regurgitating it.
I think you misunderstood me a little bit, because your “heresy of Jobs” remarks were actually the point I was trying to make: outside of Evangelical circles, “cult” isn’t used to define deviant, heretical Evangelical groups. “Cult” doesn’t mean heretic, regardless of the force by which 50s-era evangelicals tried to redefine the word. “Cult” means something else; something which makes it far more useful than “heresy” when describing the Apple Corp.’s dedicated customer base.
The thing your 7 criteria prove SGM is not? That’s a heretical Evangelical group.
[cult ≠ heresy]
The International Cultic Studies Association (ICSA; an organization that is about as secular as you can get), in an article titled “The Definitional Ambiguity of the Word Cult and ICSA’s Mission,” acknowledges at least 13 subcategories of cults branching off of at least 8 definitions of “cult,” all of which, by their own admission, can be used “properly or improperly.”
Right. That’s the definitions floating around in the heads of people coming to them for help/information. On their “About Us” page, however, they have this:
So it looks like you’ve mischaracterized the ICSA: they have one working definition, not “8+3+?+?+?”.
Travis:
Thanks for the mathematical formulae in spelling out that cult does not equal heresy. I’m sure I didn’t catch it the first four times.
I simply don’t buy the fact that you believe that “everyone else here” is using an 1800s reference to “cult” and not influenced one iota by later decades.
““Cult” doesn’t mean heretic, regardless of the force by which 50s-era evangelicals tried to redefine the word. “Cult” means something else; something which makes it far more useful than “heresy” when describing the Apple Corp.’s dedicated customer base.”
Feel free to set straight the apparent 50′s-era evangelical ignorance on this; I’d love to see the dialogue on that conversation. And this statement only confirms my radical conviction that my nephew’s scout troop is, in fact, a cult.
Apologies for the headache: I’d been reading a book on technology during the postmodern era, right after reading one on modernism’s technology precipitating it, and the brain kicked out “postmodernism” when I was writing. The typical modernist approach that man can solve his problems long before God ever could was what I had in mind; the church/religion was viewed as a detriment to progress. I’m not trying to oversimplify the era in two sentences, I’m just relating what was running through my noodle. That’s the truth, and my apologies. I can’t recommend anything except prayer for PK’s brain to untie its knots and just simple aspirin for you (or the painkiller of your choice, with even more apologies from me).
And I think you missed my point. I believe a debate on the subject of whether or not issues within SGM fall into the heresy realm, my answer would be yes (the creation of a fictional apostolic team, a supergroup that might be present in Marvel Comics but not Holy Scripture, springs to mind). That’s an introduced idea, that’s heresy in my opinion, that’s a subject worth debating as it affects the life of the church. No more flash cards, please. My whole point was to point out the heretical particulars rather than slapping SGM with the generalizing of “cult.”
I think if we continue, we’re bound to have more you-missed-my-point-isms that would resemble a you-can’t-fire-me-I-quit conversation. The only thing I can broken-recordize again is that when people use the word “cult,” I don’t think the 19th century version springs to mind. The one botched up by us ignat pitchfork evangelicals having a hoe-down rebellion over is more than likely the one that does spring to mind.
Thanks for the grammar lessons and history corrections.
…pk
As for “trinity,” it’s a word coined to describe a Biblical concept ["tri" modifying the word "unity"]. In contrast, “cult”—as well as the words on the list I provided—are all words which first appeared in the popular [secular] culture.
The Scriptures should be brought to bear on any word or phrase coined specifically to summarize a theological concept (Trinity, supralaspariamism, post-tribulational rapture), but this doesn’t mean that we co-opt an existing word and attach to it an unrelated Biblical concept.
In otherwords, it would be both confusing and unhelpful for evangelicals to take the word “elephant” and assign to it all the meaning traditionally assigned to “messiah.” This is what was done with “cult” and “heresy.”
Travis:
Please forgive my failed attempt at trying to herd the sheep into the slaughterhouse and your heroic success in correcting me. Forgive my co-opting of words in trying to bring theological implications into everything, including elephants. There’s problems with the word cult. Evangelicals have addressed what they believe should be criteria in declaring something a cult. Thanks for setting them straight.
…pk
It’s always fun to follow a conversation between two really smart analytical thinkers. Thanks for the entertainment, PK and Travis!
I’m probably over-simplifying, but PK, the main thing I’m hearing in your original post is that you believe the word “cult,” as typically understood nowadays, carries too much baggage to be used when describing Sovereign Grace Ministries. So you’re seeking to present arguments against ANY use of the term when we discuss SGM, including phrases like my own, ”I believe SGM sometimes employs cult-like methodologies.”
I really can understand why, to someone currently on the inside of an SGM church – especially a church that has largely avoided most of the problems discussed on this and other blogs – it would be disconcerting to hear the “C-word” applied to anything relating to SGM, even in the most narrow of ways. I can also understand how it might be wise to avoid the term “cult” so as to avoid offending SGMers and thus shutting down any productive, constructive discussion with them.
I can agree with those reasons for not bandying about the label of “cult,” or “cultic.” That’s precisely why, on the survivors site, I’ve always been extremely squeamish when the discussion goes in a more aggressive direction.
BUT…if we set aside the (very legitimate) emotional reasons for not using the word “cult” for any aspect of SGM, I think it’s intellectually dishonest to argue that nothing about the way *some* SGM churches have conducted their business has ever demonstrated “cultic tendencies.”
As has been pointed out already, there is much about the slavish devotion to CJ Mahaney that seems “cultic” to a Christian outsider. I’d add to that what I personally found off-putting (and alarming, actually, when I got to thinking about it) during our sojourn through our own SGM church, which was that members constantly demonstrated, through word and deed, that they had thoroughly identified their commitment to Christ specifically with their commitment to SGM.
Guy and I had the opportunity on at least 3 different occasions to sit in on what was purportedly a time of “sharing our testimonies.” Our care group leader carefully directed the discussion, clearly telling us to go around in a circle and share about “how we came to faith in Christ.”
But every single person (including Guy and me!) eventually brought our “testimony” around to our love for and commitment to our specific SGM church. In fact, the majority of the “testimonies” had much, MUCH more to do with how the person came to discover Sovereign Grace Ministries than how that person came to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ.
Honestly, PK – if that’s not “cultic” by any definition, then what IS? And if we cannot use commonly accepted terms to discuss such slavish devotion to a cause that ultimately (in my opinion) serves to distract us from Christ, then how CAN we go about discussing the problem?
Please don’t get me wrong here. I am all for avoiding shutting down discussions and offending people. I even agree with most of what you’ve said with respect to SGM’s essentially orthodox (and therefore non-cultic) doctrines.
But to say that there is nothing “cultic” about SGM practices and unspoken yet very real cultural expectations…well, I think that is simply dishonest. And not really productive to fixing the problem, even if you’re still on the inside of a Sovereign Grace church.
<blockquote>
I think if we continue, we’re bound to have more you-missed-my-point-isms that would resemble a you-can’t-fire-me-I-quit conversation. The only thing I can broken-recordize again is that when people use the word “cult,” I don’t think the 19th century version springs to mind. The one botched up by us ignat pitchfork evangelicals having a hoe-down rebellion over is more than likely the one that does spring to mind.
Thanks for the grammar lessons and history corrections.</blockquote>
PK,
as Kris said in her post, I think most of us are aware of both useages of the word “cult”. Cult as used to define those who are somewhat clonish with their devotion as in the cult of jobs, and cult as defined by you above with the 7 criteria. That’s why we use words like “cult-like” and clones most of the time instead of coming right out and calling SGM a cult.
I am somewhat concerned with how you are handling being disagreed with. As long as we are respectful with each other, it is ok to disagree. Sarcasm towards each other isn’t going to help convey anything except a desire to just give up the dialog.
Travis:
I was tempted to erase the festering sore that was my last post, but instead, I am feeling led to lance it (sorry for the mess).
Forgive my tone and nastiness behind it. I appreciate your contention for the truth, and this is honest, and not done in a but-I’m-still-right way. Positions are never, NEVER worth me getting riled up over like this personally with someone else.
Forgive me brother, and thanks for keeping me on my toes.
…pk
Ellie:
Apologies. Please see my post at 1:10pm. It was written before I saw your post.
…pk
From Faithful Friend by Twila Paris:
” I am one of many whose path has been made clear
By the light you’ve carried faithfully as a warrior and a child
God has used you greatly to encourage and inspire
And you’ve remained a true friend all the while
So I will never put you on a pedastal
Cause we both know all the glory is the Lord’s
But I’ll be there to pray that He will keep you by his grace
And I always will remind you to be seeking His face.”
- this is for PK and Travis.
I really appreciate both you guys!
{{{{{{{{{{{{ hugs }}}}}}}}}}}
Thanks, Ellie. Them’s good lyrics, and I always covet your prayers here, everyone.
…pk
EVERYONE PLEASE READ THIS COMMENT:
Everyone:
I need your prayers, and I need to ask your forgiveness.
I am humbly asking for your prayers, as my inbox -a place out of sight from here- has become a war zone. This isn’t a surpise, but at times it can be overwhelming. As I stated at the beginning of my post, “I sort of dreaded writing this post, as this subject is truly one of those where I believe the debate has no end in sight, as many have their firm convictions and minds settled to a degree that won’t be moved by any natural means.”
Nevertheless I went forward as I really couldn’t justify discussing our witness (SGM and the church universal) to world religions and “cults” without addressing it.
I’ve hit a nerve with all sides, and I simply need your prayers. I’m humbly asking everyone here for that, those who are within and without SGM. I want to serve folks and not retort; debate while “agreeing to disagree” agreeably with folks. And while we are on that subject, please forgive my public nastiness specifically toward Travis (and Travis, again, please forgive me for that) and anyone else for that matter. For those offended by me, please email me and let’s work it out. It was a sorry example of how to contend for the truth.
The ‘fuge has had somewhat of a readership/ratings surge, rapidly increasing the traffic and correspondence. Please know that my recent “Why SGM is NOT a Cult” post was not purposely exploiting an incendiary subject to do this. With this surge, I need the grace to be able to handle it. Trying to answer or engage in everyone’s comments and emails sometimes results in very late responses.
For those who are emailing, I ask that you not come in swinging, with links to dozens of web pages I cannot possibly have time to read in their entirety. I’ve had more than one person accuse me of giving credence to stories here without fact-checking, and then these individuals proceed to tell me their stories in defense of their position. Nobod’s stories take ascendence over anyone else’s. In this environment, I have to initially give everyone the benefit of the doubt, and then simply check the fruit. This may be imperfect, but folks, you’re gonna have to deal with it. This is how we typically deal with each other in church, and it’s how we deal with each other in the world, frankly. I am the best Protestant Knight I can be right now, relying on God’s mercy and grace.
My physical condition also dictates some of my activity/inactivity here, another situation I cannot change. Please understand, I should NOT use this as a free pass on sin. Keep the concerns and the correction coming. All I ask is that you temper it, and don’t dig in on something because you feel I haven’t responded correctly to your specific concerns. Pray for me to treat everyone even-handedly here.
I am working on a “BEFORE YOU POST” page here; not that I expect it to resolve any and all issues; but it may be helpful. I need prayer and guidance on constructing this.
I think I’ve been guilty of generalizations in the past, of forming groups in my head and not individuals. It will take some work to unravel this spaggheti matrix, but I’m preaching the following to myself before anyone else:
My brothers and sisters in SGM (commenters and silent observers): Please take into account the context of the many issues at hand here, and know I am contending for the truth and not perpetually airing some personal grievance. I touch on many, many issues here that go way beyond my personal experience. Our ministry needs reform, and your comfort or discomfort in your current church situation does not dictate reality for all of our churches. All I ask is that you please keep this in mind when reading the stories of others here, especially those no longer in SGM. Don’t stop the testimonies and encouragement, just pause before Your holy God in how you relate it
My brothers and sisters not in (or no longer in) SGM (commenters and silent observers): Please take into account the context of the many issues at hand here, and know I am contending for the truth and not perpetually airing some personal grievance. SGM needs reform, and your comfort or discomfort in your current church situation does not dictate reality for all churches, let alone SGM. All I ask is that you please keep this in mind when reading the stories of others here, especially those still in SGM. Don’t stop the testimonies and encouragement, just pause before Your holy God in how you relate it.
Thanks everyone…
…pk
Hi PK! (and everyone else here at The Refuge!
)
First of all, I want to publicly thank you, PK, for heroically carrying the torch here at The Refuge! You have done an admirable job, from your posting and writing abilities and your obvious gifting in this area, to your pattern of gracious responses, which show your true love and care for everyone here, those still in SGM and those no longer a part of SGM. (We all slip, at times, into a possibly more aggressive defense of our own views and convictions… but, as Christians, we have the ability to agree to disagree amicably and move on, still loving and caring for one another in spite of, or maybe because of, our unique, God given personalities.)
This is one of the things I love and appreciate about our little community here… we all have this platform, this blog, to voice our opinions and our beliefs, to hear an opposing viewpoint, to even argue our views. We also, as humans, with our human nature, can respond from that human nature and possibly offend others. Having said that, we also have this platform to repent when we have sinned, to ask forgiveness of those we have offended, and to forgive. (PK… I’m not addressing your viewpoint nor your convictions… I am addressing only your self-admitted “tone and nastiness” directed toward Travis, and your subsequent appeal for forgiveness. This is, again, a testimony to your soft heart towards everyone here, and your quickness to respond to God’s leading.)
From what I have witnessed here at The Refuge, time and time again, that has been the pattern. And that says a lot about all of you here, your intent to do the right thing, to live a life worthy, to love and respect each other and our differing opinions.
And I have seen this pattern again in PK and Travis. I respect both of you, and now even more so, seeing how you have conducted yourselves here. God is glorified, my friends!!
PS… Just a quick update on mine and Jim’s absence from The Refuge… Jim has been working 12-18 hour days lately, even through the weekends, which hasn’t left him much time to even read the blog, much less post very often. As for me… I have spent much of my time taking care of my elderly parents (they are both in their late 70′s). They have a myriad of health issues requiring many, many doctors visits and multiple hospital stays (sometimes both in the hospital at the same time). Coupled with my own health issues, I haven’t had much time to spend here, either, much less weigh in on these topics that PK has been addressing… as much as I’d like to!
Hopefully things will settle down soon and become more “normal” (whatever “normal” is) and we will be able to re-join all of you here on a more regular basis. Until then, you are all in our hearts and in our prayers! And, again, Jim and I are so very thankful and grateful to PK (and his lovely wife, Protestant Dame) for taking over The Refuge in our absence! 
PK,
and here I thought me saying we needed to look at our own role in all this would be met with anger and defensiveness by some…so this welcomes the question:
why did everyone (on both sides) get so bent out of shape over this discussion? THAT warrants some examination. Over-reactions are often (but of course not always) an indication of a deeper problem. We all process things emotionally, at least in part, somewhere along the way. These emotions can range from anger, to defensiveness, to denial, depression, whatever. But each one of us has some PERSONAL lusts (desires) at stake here. So it is up to us, in prayer and the leading of the Holy Spirit, to discover what desires are currently lurking beneath all the talk and what is secretly and silently driving us in our emotions, thoughts, actions.
THAT was my point initially. Do you see the dancing around at least some of the issues here? Not that everything everyone has had to say is NOT a good point or relevant, but we are failing to examine the single most important factor in all our analysis of things: our own hearts.
Can I give you guys a personal example to perhaps illustrate this?
I left my SGM church in April of this year, so going on 8 months (praise the Lord!) but each month the Lord has dealt with a different aspect of MY heart at the same time I have been examining SGM’s teachings, etc. For example, the over-emphasis on the teachings on indwelling sin were especially a problem for me. Why? I was a people pleaser and had tremendous fear of man. The more I was told how wicked I was, the more depressed I became and the more I sought to gain approval through performance. This resulted in me becoming a legalist. A second example would be the Calvinistic doctrine. I was raised Southern Baptist and was taught OSAS (once saived always saved) and was examining conditional security when I “discovered” Calvinism. It seemed to be the answer to all my questions. I had the assurance I wanted, but it came at a price. I’m not wanting to get into a discussion of what is right/wrong doctrine, but giving an example of how my own heart was causing me to seek after various things – doctrines, churches, etc. It DID have an impact.
Is the teaching that we have indwelling sin wrong or unbiblical? By all means no, it isn’t. But instead of arguing whether or not it is right/wrong, we need to look at the heart of the individual. FOr some, the intellectual focus is a problem and causes them to stumble. For others, the authoritarian structure provides a sense of security and protection they may have never known before – I know people who had horrific families growing up, no father figures, or bad ones, others who were abused, and to find a church family that loves and accepts you is wonderfully healing in some ways, but if you are not careful, you will end up in bondage.
DO you guys see what I mean by all this? The common denominator that links all the people who attend SGM and are struggling or who came out and struggled, are the heart issues. Yes, there are doctrines and teachings that contribute, but SOMETHING about these doctrines and teachings must appeal to certian people (us) and not others. We’ve just looked at half the problem – we’ve identified patterns of things in the teachings and culture of SGM that produces similar-minded sheep, but what about the sheep? Why is everyone not affected by these teachings?
The Lord really spoke to me and cautioned me that for some (myself included) sharing our convictions and sin publicly has been abused by SGM and so the last thing we want to do is share them here. So I want to address that. Indwelling sin for me is a topic that makes me cringe. But I don’t need to go the other extreme and just be an antinomian, do I? Again, is confessing sin to one another wrong or unbiblical? Of course not. But it has been abused in SGM as a form of control. I am suggesting that we share those things the Lord reveals (as HE leads us) as we examine them, and seek prayer for and from one another. That we model on here what was failed to be modeled in our SGM churches because of the abuses there.
I think the Lord would be pleased.
Carole, good to “see” you – I’m praying for you and Jim..was JUST thinking this morning that caring for our parents is such an act of glory to God. I am so not kidding about the timing, so how odd. I was thinking of the time I would be doing so and asked the Lord to prepare me for it. So I pray the Lord truly blesses this time with your parents and your care for them. You inspire me sister!
Hi Juli!
Thanks so much for your prayers and your encouragement! It’s difficult to see my parents getting older and watching as their bodies start to fail. I know it’s all a part of life, this growing old thing, but it doesn’t make it any easier to watch it happen to my Mom and Dad, who have always been so strong and have given their lives to raising us kids and sacrificing so much for us.
And it is an honor to be able to take care of them now, when they are the ones who need to be cared for and supported.
Hey,
I was reading this and I wanted to share it here. I think I left one of the “worst” SG churches, and I only assest that by the spiritual decay in so many. Yes, everyone has their own problems, but alot of decay stemmed from being beat down by leadership, or neglected when asked for help, or asked to leave etc…..Well yah, I struggle alot through this process….but I pray alot for the church. I read this and I was affect, warmed where I was cold, and able to take one of those freeing breaths…
For too long, the Protestant church has felt the license to defame the body and the Bride of Christ by calling her Cahtolic (or what ever) brothere and sisters the “whore” church of Revelation. Every time we say such a thing, we ar pounding another nail in the hands of Jesus. he died for Catholics and Protestants both. And Catholics can no longer afford ot categorize protestants as mere schismatics, heretics or lesser Christians. For too long, some Protestants have cursed Catholics, rather than embraced them as brothers and vice versa. Of course, we are all starting to realize our error. We all need humility to embrace Christ within one another, though we many never agree on any other doctrinal issue.
It is all to childish to paint one another in black and white stereotypes. We all can learn from one another, and we are all riddled with error. In his imaginary games, my 3 year old son loves to pretend there are “good guys” and “bad guys” But ireal life is
not that simple. We have all played the harlot. It is time we grow up.
The reason nearly every move of God tends to stagnate, is because it judges the last move of God. We become what we judge. If we judge religious people and hypocrites, we eventually become religious hypocrites. Never citicize the old wineskin, just let it be. The wine itself will burst the old jug. an it will eventually burst yours. There is no quicker way into bondage than falling into spiritual pride and thinking we are on the cutting edge of what god is doing. That we have somehow ascended beyond where the old order got stuck. First of all, we don’t know all the old order had to put up with, and what spiritual ground they broke through on our behalf.
It is important not to adopt a rebellious spirit, and to remember that our battle is not against flesh and blood. Yes, religion is a foul thing, But religious people are often just wounded Christians seeking identity and comfort in the wrong places. To criticize the old guard is often a sign that we are still operating out of rejection, and somehow needing their affirmation rather than the Lord’s. Truly mature Christians, who have overcome insecurity, will see pople beyond the veil of their religious bondage and empathize with the hurts that landed them there.
Is Christ enough? Is it enough that He wants a Bride whose body parts are not strewn about…a Bride who cares about nothing except Him and Him alone? WE are told to first love God, then to love others as ourselves. Unity doesn not mean compromise on the basics. And we want to take doctrinal errors seriously. But we need to give one another alot of latitude and grace to grow. Then some of the greatest divides in the church could be healed at this time…
Juli:
I definitely hear ya. The heart primes the gears into action at times before Christ does; nothing necessarily wrong with this so long as Christ is inhabiting the desires of our heart. Probably every stumbling block I’ve had in my life can be traced back to that, a gut reaction, a carnal satisfaction to satiate me.
An example, Juli, I believe in what you are talking about: I love books. But I’ve made them idols at times (an understatement). I’ve been Phariseeical in my opinions more than once that everyone else should love books and research and analysis as much as I do. I love studying the Gifts of Grace and the Doctrines of Grace. I never had a problem marrying the two in my life, and to say this is an issue with die-hard Charismatics and die-hard Reformers is another understatement. But that’s not my point here. My point is wanting to leap to those books to solve my immediate crises. My heart is focused in a reliance on them, and not the word of God. I try to retroactively bring the Holy Spirit into my thoughts and actions. What a deplorable thing to do in terms of walking with God! God can raise a child in any manner He wants to, and I firmly believe that while there are some non-negotiables in scripture, He raises children in the manner He wants to, and in infinite ways.
The problem is I get caught up in the peripherals. I will continue to post on my concerns regarding the areas of cults and even the word “cult” itself, but with a mlittle more grace and understanding when entering the forum. I haven’t been entering the forum, I’ve been entering the ring.
That’s where I trip up. I ring my own bell and start punching, when the other person is simply trying to talk. “Come let us reason” has been “come let us duke it out” for me.
My words should be rich with life and not straps of leather wrapped around my knuckles. My actions should be the same.
The world of books SGM lays out before you is attractive. Books can help us, I believe that. But even the “good” ones, when worshipped… well, it may as well be a Golden Calf at that point. There’s one book that should smash all others, bottom line. And His Holy Scripture is sufficient for me.
I said this prayer once:
If I am stranded on a desert island, my Lord… before you teach me to hunt, to fish, to survive to do anything that would nourish and glorify my carcass… give me your word! Wash it upon the shore so that in my isolation You remind me of who I am and what You are! And if I can’t have that, write it on my heart so that it carries me until I fly to you…
That’s just one area, Juli.
Want the eight thousand others?
God is merciful.
…pk
PK,
Will I forgive you? Absolutely! I was having a good time, and while you got a little sarcastic there, I didn’t take it as mean-spirited… only “spirited.”
So there’s no hard feelings at all on this end, and please forgive me for any I caused on yours.
I would have said something sooner, but my wife has some nasty morning (more like all-day) sickness, and I’ve been pulling double duty around the house.
I don’t comment on any of these blogs. Mainly because my story is not over yet. I’m ‘knee deep’ in a situation to ‘go there’ yet. I do, however, sometimes read the blogs.
But, I do have something to say:
If there were not a problem, there would be nothing to talk about. Since the debate is so contentious and the ‘sides’ are so terribly opposed, I’d even venture to say that the problem is so deep and so wide that there’s really no logical way out of it.
If there were no problem, wouldn’t there be more peace? Would any of us ever have ‘googled’ ‘sgm cult’ or some similar search thus finding our way to these blogs?
To date, the ‘survivors’ blog had over 1.73 million hits. I understand that many or most of those hits are from return guests. But, I would love to know how many individual people have hit that site. My best guess is that there are probably between 10,000 and 15,000 (that is a very generous guess) total members in all of SGM. Are there more individual people hitting these blogs than there are total members? Could there be that many people who have, in one way or another, tried to understand the ‘thing’ we call SGM?
I don’t think that many people would be ‘visiting’ if there were nothing to debate and I don’t think there would be anything to debate if there were nothing wrong.
Just my opinion.
Very well written post. I have said SGM is cult-like before, but I’m not overly anxious to slap on any label for the heck of it. In fact, to just call them a cult puts them in a sort of sureal state that most people can’t relate to when in reality a very large majority of western churches are caught up in legalism that is just as serious while perhaps not so particularly difficult to live with.
SGM is preaching another gospel according to the Galatians description (which is primarily dealing with the false assumption that justification is by faith/grace while sanctification, or moving on, is by obeying the law) , so ironically I would think this gets them in the cult category according to your points. I mean, if you’re not preaching the true gospel, what are you preaching exactly? I have heard a lot of heresy from their pulpits over the years, though sadly I didn’t even know it most of that time. And I think honestly, neither do they.
Anyway, I do agree that labelling them ‘cult’ could be quite counter-productive.
You know, it is always useful to define terms in any debate, and I think that causes most of the problem here.
There is a fundamental difference between these two scenarios:
Look, there is an elephant in the road.
and
Blecch, you smell like an elephant.
Elephants just are. They are big grey animals with long trunks that live in Asia and Africa and zoos. Calling someone an elephant would be stupid. Only elephants are elephants.
However, I could certainly take an aspect of elephanthood to use to describe something else that is not an elephant. I could say your shirt is as grey as an elephant, or your ears are as big as an elephant’s, or you smell like an elephant.
But I would not, literally, be callling you an elephant. (However, only the first comment would not be hurtful.)
We must define cult to have this discussion. But this is probably impossible to do in this context, since we are not face-to-face and we have differing theologies and motivations. But until that word is universally ‘fuge-defined, we wil continue to go round and round.
Certainly aspects of a cult are apparent in SGM: extreme loyalty to a group, extreme loyalty to a group leader, exclusiveism. But just because your shirt is grey or your ears are big in no way makes you an elephant. The right DNA, and all the right parts, just not some, make you an elephant.
It is instructive to keep an elephant in mind when thinking about elephant-like stuff. The comparison between the two causes clarity.
Can I just say that even “kids” like myself who have grown up in SGM laugh about why people think we’re a cult – because as we grow older we can understand it? The annoying overused phrases, the strict doctrines, the families with millions of kids all wearing denim jumpers…
The overused phrases get me the most. There are some people who just don’t understand how ridiculous we sound. Then there are new people to the church – they are like breaths of fresh air to me!! They don’t use all the dumb phrases like “evidences of grace” and such and they don’t WANT to! They want to be christian without using the hoity toity language that so often comes across as arrogance. I’ve been corrected by people outside of my church for using that sort of language and sounding arrogant… and that was not my intention to try to sound like I’m above them but I understand what they’re saying and it’s made me change my words to sound more.. hmm…. human?
Eponine,
Well said.
I agree. Well said. Good to see you eponine.
Hi everyone,
Can I ask a question? Sometimes when I put a question out here, I get ignored. I think this is a critical query for today’s church. Instead of continuing this discussion on whether a controlling church is a cult, wouldn’t it be more productive to discuss the legalism that enslaves hearts in the body of Christ? This legalism strangles the love of God in peoples’ hearts, making us ineffective in the worldly culture that surrounds us. Paul preached violently against the leaven of the Pharasees. Shouldn’t we? (okay, that’s two questions)
I was just wondering…
Hi, Canary. I think we all can agree that the church in general and people in particular tend to swing between legalism and license.
We measure out our mustard seeds with tweezers to get the perfect tithe–and argue about the number of angels on the head of a pin (or the meaning of the word “cult” or “orthopraxy”)–and create ever longer lists of idols and sins and enemies.
Then all of our rules strangle us–and we realize how empty and hollow we’ve become, how far we have travelled from the mercies and the messiness of walking by faith in the footsteps of Jesus.
So, we bag it all. We all hold hands and sing “Kum-ba-ya” around campfires until we realize “Hey, some of these hands are filthy” and “Who’s gonna teach the children right from wrong?” and then. . .
We swing back . . .
Notice I have an easier time painting a silly picture of the pharisee side–and I probably need some time to see the foolishness of the side I’m currently on.
So, once we recognize this tendency to drift to legalism or to license, how do we correct this in ourselves? how do we help point it out to others? is that our job?
Acme,
Good points. I think that, as we read about the leaven of the pharasees, we see that it was not to be tolerated. Paul was not subtle about his feelings towards those who tried to enslave believers with the law. Today, our churches allow a little leaven without realizing that it will grow and grow until grace is all but strangled. That is what happened to my PDI church. It was a slow, suffocating death of grace. When that happens, all we have to offer the world is a powerless, almost loveless religion.
Obviously, the first step in confronting the leaven of the pharasees would be for us all to look into the mirror. This is a painful thing. Only the brave can do it. To be rid of the leaven means that we test everything we thought we knew about being a Christian. That can be dangerous ground for church leadership. It means letting go of control, seeking for truth no matter how brutal, and preaching grace to the fullest extent of its definition.
But are we brave enough to do this?
canary said:
“Obviously, the first step in confronting the leaven of the pharasees would be for us all to look into the mirror. This is a painful thing. Only the brave can do it. To be rid of the leaven means that we test everything we thought we knew about being a Christian. That can be dangerous ground for church leadership. It means letting go of control, seeking for truth no matter how brutal, and preaching grace to the fullest extent of its definition.
But are we brave enough to do this?”
I don’t think we are, Canary. Most churches are so beholden to tradition for traiditon’s sake. Not to say it is all meaningless; but is it keeping us from relationship with God? maybe. I would guess that in most instances when a pastor wants to change anything at all regarding interpretation of Scripture, theology, even how things are run, for crying out loud, he is labeled a heretic and run out of town on a rail. All this is a high price to pay for honestly questioning and honestly seeking truth. People want the status quo, to “be fed” the usual diet, and go home. I know i am generalizing! I don’t think that’s the kind of believer Jesus had in mind for His people to be.
whereis,
looking for the real Jesus, post SGM
Canary said,
“To be rid of the leaven means that we test everything we thought we knew about being a Christian. That can be dangerous ground for church leadership. It means letting go of control, seeking for truth no matter how brutal, and preaching grace to the fullest extent of its definition.”
Grace is very messy. It doesn’t look alike in every circumstance. It is impossible to control. That makes people uncomfortable sometimes. Also, it’s easier to comprehend that when we sin, we are in trouble with our Holy God and have to work to make it right. Maybe there is a unspoken fear among leaders of legalistic churches in general that if they extend grace in a situation, it will lead to license in other’s lives. (I have seen license at work to an appalling degree in another church. Paul must have seen it as well – “Shall we go on sinning so that grace may abound? May it never be!”) Grace is risky. It’s easier to structure our meetings or our lives according to a formula that runs smoothly and has seen some measure of results. But are the results always glorifying to God? Or more glorifying to man or the organization? Is affection and gratitude toward God one of the fruits? Or affection, gratitude and fierce loyalty to a man or organization? More questions, canary! :)
I am, sadly, quite prone to these legalistic responses. My personality likes everything neat and regimented. I am prone to pride and fear. God has spent much time with me, demonstrating how these traits can lead to legalism and still I know there is work to do in this area.
Recently a friend gave me a gift. It was an angel from a collection by a certain artist. Each angel has a name or emphasis. My friend chose the angel that reminded her the most of what she sees in me. It was called Grace. Imagine my delight (and surprise!) when I received that gift. God used it as a little encouragement that some progress has been made. That’s one reason I chose the name Gracie for myself as well. A constant reminder of the heart of the gospel. I need that. SGM needs that.
Gracie,
Wow, more questions, more thoughts to ponder. How marvelous that your life is moving so much towards grace that someone else would notice enough to comment. You should be greatly encouraged.
I wonder if, when grace is preached fully, that some don’t move into license because they really are not the Lord’s. Grace is like a weed killer. Preach it and the flowers will bloom more fully while the weeds wither.
Whereisthelove,
I was very sobered by your words. You said, “People want the status quo, to “be fed” the usual diet, and go home. I know i am generalizing! I don’t think that’s the kind of believer Jesus had in mind for His people to be.”
This seems to be true, and should make us all mourn. Is it possible that the Spirit of God is moving in a way to make believers dis-satisfied with the status quo? I don’t get around alot, so I can’t answer that. Maybe someone reading this can say. I know my own heart is no longer satisfied with the business as usual routine.
Perhaps leaders won‘t change, first. Perhaps the followers have to stop following so blindly. It’s time to stop taking the easy road, and begin walking on the difficult, rocky path to freedom in Christ. It’s costly, and sometimes painful, but the love of Jesus will fill us so fully that we will become a different people. The love of God is so powerful that it will overcome our fears.
I apologize if I’ve derailed the conversation about cults. It’s just that, thinking about legalism and how it will cripple the body of Christ is so critical to helping others be set free from controlling leadership.
I just found this in Galations. Paul speaks of going to Jerusalem after spending fourteen years preaching the gospel to the Gentiles. He guarded his heart from legalism when he got to Jerusalem.
“But all went well! Even Titus, who was with me, was not compelled (as some had anticipated) to be circumcised , although he was a Greek. My precaution was because of false brethren (some men who were Christians in name only) who had been secretly smuggled into the Christian brotherhood; they had slipped in to spy on our liberty and the freedom which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might again bring us into bondage under the Law of Moses. To them we did not yield submission even for a moment, that the truth of the Gospel might continue to be preserved for you in its purity” (Galations 2:3-5, Amplified).
I am reading these words as though I’d never read them before!
This discussion reminds me of something a dear friend pointed out to me-she said the best definition of leadership is this “Leadership is the ability to influence people.” In other words-if you have the title of leader (or pastor, care group leader, etc…) so what-it’s the people that actually influence people towards the love and grace of God that are leaders. So yes-maybe we all need to stop worrying about titles and stated roles and start asking how God is calling us to lead in our own sphere of influence. Even if no offical “leader” has told us what to do.
It’s interesting, that Paul states in Galatians that the Apostles of Jerusalem added nothing to his gospel or message. In other words-he was 14 years on track with God without any official ok by the Eleven. Not trying to down play education or normal means of affirming leaders-but shouldn’t it be more than what we are seeing…no more status qou for me, thank you.
I never thought of what i am about to say too much until now. We think of license as the opposite of legalism and want to find balance. But from what i can tell, Jesus speaks of the Pharisees countless times (actually 99 times the Pharisees are mentioned in the bible). He warns us to be wary of their leaven and influence. He calls them a brood of vipers. The bible speaks of legalism as bringing death. If what we call license were as bad, why is there no mention 99 times of groups who represent that which we fear- license.
Just thinking out loud.
Stunned,
Excellent point! The more I read, the more surprised I am to find how Paul spoke of legalism. He called it (in Galations) another gospel. Why do we think it is okay to preach grace with a little leaven? Paul would have a hissy-fit if he was around today to visit some American churches.
Now the question is, what is legalism? Because I can guarantee that there are people reading these posts who do not recognize the legalism in their lives. My ex-leaders were adamant that they did not practice it, yet my husband and I saw it everywhere we looked, including in our own lives. So, what defines the leaven of the Pharisees? Why did Paul consider it so dangerous? He insisted that those who preached this “other” gospel should be cursed. Strong words, I think.
I’m sorry if I’m doing to much of my thinking on this blog. I’ll try to stay away from the “mic” for a little while. I just get so excited about what I’m reading in the Bible!
Canary,
I feel that you’ve taken this thread in a very good direction.
The mic is open-please continue to share your excitement. It’s contagious.
Thanks, Jim. I appreciate that.
Well, my thoughts have been circling the wagon for two days, now. If we follow the vein of Juli’s comments, how we need to look at ourselves to discover what draws us to legalistic churches, then I would begin with myself.
I was “born again” into legalism at the age of 16. Some Baptists taught me right after my conversion all the things I “needed” to do to be a Christian. I was 18 when I became a part of the church in Fairfax, which eventually hooked up with PDI. Though there was a little more attention put on Jesus at the beginning of this church, it gradually moved into teaching the “have to’s” and the “you dare nots”. Being young and uniformed, I followed these teachings.
But what drew me to them? What caused me to yield my freedom to others? The very first weakness I think of is fear of man. This ensnared me. It was my sin. Yes, the church enabled this fear to grow and multiply through its teachings, its controlling aspects of the hierarchy, but the sin was still mine to own. I would fear to miss a meeting because I might get into trouble, I feared being different from the crowd because I might be noticed and corrected (stay under the radar), I practiced the many ways I was taught to be a godly woman, wife, and mother…boy, talk about legalism. I could NEVER fulfill that “call”. I confessed sins to people I hardly new, even sins I wasn’t comitting at the time, but it was on the care group list for discussion so we all had to confess something. I lived to please the people in my life. Where was God in all of this?
The day I understood how much of a legalist I had become was a sober moment that I will never forget. It happened without anyone else present. Then came true repentance and comittment to take up my cross and follow Jesus. Unfortunately, my new life in Christ meant I couldn’t follow the leaders anymore, for the most part. Since they made it impossible to let me think for myself, to seek the Lord for myself, I had to leave the people I loved so much.
My next greatest sin discovery was my unbelief. I spent weeks upon weeks in the book of Hebrews. I was amazed at all the teachings, traditions, and rituals I followed that I DIDN’T BELIEVE. I was also amazed at how many truths of God I also DIDN’T BELIEVE. Legalism makes it so easy to follow stupid rules and regulations, while missing out on the important issues like walking in the grace of God, or belieivng that the Great I Am really is.
I’m getting personal about myself because I want others to feel the freedom to get personal, too. We have to look at the ways that the leaven of the Pharasees effect our walk with God, and keep us ensnared in rules and traditions that make no sense. Our hunger, the cry of our heart, should be to know Jesus and to know Him more fully every day. Instead, it has been replaced with knowing our leaders, knowing our church, obeying, staying under someone’s authority, getting to all the meetings, etc. These sort of activities are what causes us to think of controlling churches as being cult-like in the first place. But, it is the followers who can make this change. It is Us!
Legalism is insidious and evil. We are no longer under the law, but under grace. If we truly imitate the early Apostles in preaching the grace of God fully to ourselves and others, we will, like Paul, guard ourselves against legalism so that we might present a pure gospel. Isn’t that what we all want?
Jim, if I’ve over-stepped my boundaries, please tell me. I write all this with a little fear and trembling, wanting to encourage my brothers and sisters in Christ. I don’t wish to cause anyone to stumble. Thanks for allowing me the freedom to share.:)
Can I just say that I often hear people saying grace is messy, worrying about liscence etc… But aren’t most of here because the opposite is true? Living under law, legalism, is very ‘messy’. It produces death and stinking self-righteousness, white-washed tombs. We never hear anyone talk about how messy legalism is! Maybe that because we are so deceived by the enemy , dazzled and bewitched by the pretty shiny exterior of legalism. Since coming into fuller and fuller revelation of grace, I’ve experienced messsiness as all the poisonous lies finally start coming out to be dealt with, but I am becoming freer and freer, more and more filled with love, peace, joy and the other fruits of the Spirit. Am I immune to making mistakes or failing at times? No, but my life is far more Christ-like than it ever came close to being under the old covenant mindset of try harder try harder beat yourself and try some more.
Canary,
Keep sharing as the Lord leads. Great question, “What is legalism.” I can’t begin to tell you what it is for me. I am clueless. Maybe if you took a photo of me and put a red circle around it you could say, “That here folks is legalism.” You might not be too far from the truth.
But I can’t help but think that God probably doesn’t spell legalism out for us because (and I KNOW this is true), as soon as He does, someone would make a rule out of it, a doctrine, and then trying to avoid that definition of legalism in itself would become a law.
We people are funny.
Well, I agree that PK was courageous in this post, but I do not agree with him at all.
I was in SGM for about 8 years. I am speaking from my own experience.
Also, I have done LOTS of research on cults, trying to find life and solid ground again, and more and more cult-watch sites, even Christian cult-watch sites, are saying that a group can teach orthodox beliefs, but if they have and use cult dynamics, they ARE a cult.
While SGM preaches the gospel on the one hand, they also REALLY preach “a different gospel” where believing and doing things “the SGM way” will gain God’s and SGM leaders’ favor and approval. That’s works-righteousness.
While they preach Christ as Savior and Lord on the one hand, they also REALLY preach CJ as Lord and pope and SGM as the Savior.
While they preach orthodox biblical doctrine at times, they also REALLY preach SGM doctrine and extra-biblical doctrines and rules of prime importance and supremacy.
In my experience, they pay lip service to certain orthodox positions, but REALLY believe and REALLY live and REALLY preach “a different gospel”.
<<From an orthodox Christian perspective, a cult is a group of people who follow one man or the group’s spiritual teachings and practices that, when compared with orthodox Christian doctrine always contradict them, as well as exalt the group’s own unique religious perspective as the only way to truly serve God. From a purely Biblical perspective, 2 Corinthians 11:4 gives us the clearest and most concise description of how cults may be discerned. False teachings, the apostle Paul warned here, will introduce three major errors to the unsuspecting in the name of Christianity. First they will preach their own determination of who Jesus Christ is, denying his Biblically revealed identity as God the Son and exchanging it with another. They’ll point to “another Jesus.” Secondly, cult teachers will proclaim a “gospel message” that is ultimately is a message of works-centered salvation, in sharpest contrast to the Good News of saving grace through faith in Christ (Ephesians 2:8-9). They’ll preach “another gospel.” Thirdly, the revealed spiritual nature of the work of the cult claims to be, but actually is not, inspired by God the Spirit. Instead, a chilling reference is made to spiritual entities who lend tremendous spiritual power to their natural human puppets to preach deceptive gospels. They’ll be empowered by “another spirit.” This is the work of demonic agents in allegiance with Satan, the opposer of God throughout history.In short, a cult will energetically claim to follow the Bible and be the only group to be found anywhere who really are interpreting it correctly (hence the rationale for some countercult workers calling some groups “Bible based”). Ultimately, once examined, a questionable group’s doctrines will always deny orthodox Biblical truth in one way, shape or form. >>
http://www.spiritwatch.org/cultdef.htm
1. SGM often and even predominantly points to a different gospel.
2. SGM points to a gospel message of SGM doctrine and works-righteousness, and when SGM (or CJ) disagrees with the Bible, SGM (or CJ) holds SGM stuff as superior/predominant to the Bible.
3. My experience was that SGM was increasingly devoid of the Spirit of God, partly due to SGM having an ingrained systematic habit to reject biblical correction and input. In my experience, worship time there was NOT motivited by the Spirit of God but by SGM doctrinal beliefs and mob psychology. Therefore, who or what IS the spirit and power behind SGM?
<<It is easier to estimate to what extent a particular group is unorthodox, if its belief system is based on a religion like Christianity, and the group explicitly denies one or more of the central doctrines of the source religion. Often it is not so easy, and denial may be only implicit; or there may be no commonly agreed checklist by which to compare what is orthodox and what is not. There is no reliable orthodoxy meter available to measure a group’s belief system, and the process of investigation is likely to be complex and difficult.
The purpose of this kind of investigation, attempting to locate a particular group’s belief system along a spectrum between orthodox belief systems and increasingly quasi or unorthodox belief systems, is not to make value judgments between orthodox and unorthodox beliefs as such. On the one hand, orthodox belief systems have evolved over time, and incorporate experience and understanding distilled over generations. On the other hand, it is important to acknowledge both that personal freedom is an established tenet of Western democracy, and also that various forms of unorthodoxy (in the sense of deviation from established norms) may well have evolutionary benefits for society as a whole. Both tradition and innovation have their respective merits.
Rather, the intention in the present context is to point to a particular characteristic of independent, self-originated and innovative belief systems, which can give a considerable advantage to an organisation promoting such a belief system. The particular characteristic of independent belief systems is that they can set their own moral codes….
The Culture of Cults
Summary
Religious organisations and movements are free to practice their religion as they choose, subject to the laws of the land. In practice, this means that cults, in promoting their religious beliefs and gaining adherents, are free to use deception, misrepresentation, psychological coercion or any other techniques which do not leave physical traces and are difficult to prove in a court of law.
Initially using conventional marketing techniques, cults promote their particular belief systems. The trick is that through influencing a person’s beliefs, it is possible to influence or indirectly control a person’s mind. The actual controlling of mind is done by the person themselves, as they attempt to train and discipline their mind in accordance with the tenets of their new belief system. It is the belief system itself which is the primary active agent in cult mind control.
Cult belief systems differ from conventional belief systems in a number of subtle but significant ways, which may not be apparent to an outsider. To understand the nature of these differences is to understand the nature of a cult.
Cult belief systems are typically:
I know that what I say may not be accepted by many or most. However, here I stand; I can do no other. God help me.
PS
Perhaps, since whether SGM is a cult or not is a disputable matter, it would be better to nail what is heresy, extra-biblical, and where evil dynamics are used.
Thanks.
Julie-
Yes, yes, yes-legalism is just as messy but worse. Legalism doesn’t look messy from the outside-and hence why it is so deceptive. But take a smell, and you will get nothing but the stench of death.
It’s kinda like falling in love with a department store mannequin-beautiful, pretty, smartly dressed, thin and attractive. But in the end it’s just a dead piece of plastic with no heart and a oily dead plasticine smell. True-your mannequin will never change-always oh so pretty-but it will also never give you conversation or anything, other than an appearance of life. Anyway-enough with my silly comparison-Julie thanks for your reminders on grace.
HI FOLKS: I’ve been away from here for a couple of days, and sorry about the tardiness in answering some of these posts. This is not intended to interrupt the current conversation, I was just wanting to answer some earlier posts I’ve hadn’t had a chance to yet.
Hi Kris:
Always good to see you here. Give Guy my regards and the Lord bless you both.
You said:
I’m probably over-simplifying, but PK, the main thing I’m hearing in your original post is that you believe the word “cult,” as typically understood nowadays, carries too much baggage to be used when describing Sovereign Grace Ministries. So you’re seeking to present arguments against ANY use of the term when we discuss SGM, including phrases like my own, ”I believe SGM sometimes employs cult-like methodologies.”
I really can understand why, to someone currently on the inside of an SGM church – especially a church that has largely avoided most of the problems discussed on this and other blogs – it would be disconcerting to hear the “C-word” applied to anything relating to SGM, even in the most narrow of ways. I can also understand how it might be wise to avoid the term “cult” so as to avoid offending SGMers and thus shutting down any productive, constructive discussion with them.
I would add that the way cult is very liberally defined, the ways in which it is used here and there in regard to SGM, it could be used to describe the Southern Baptist Convention, The Assemblies of God, on and on and on. Many churches in mainline denominations suffer from identical ills suffered by churches within SGM. That has something to do with my disconcert as well.
I can agree with those reasons for not bandying about the label of “cult,” or “cultic.” That’s precisely why, on the survivors site, I’ve always been extremely squeamish when the discussion goes in a more aggressive direction.
BUT…if we set aside the (very legitimate) emotional reasons for not using the word “cult” for any aspect of SGM, I think it’s intellectually dishonest to argue that nothing about the way *some* SGM churches have conducted their business has ever demonstrated “cultic tendencies.”
The way the word “cult” works Kris is like wildfire in its distortion. I’ve seen in it action for over thirty years of my lifetime work this way: The first person says “cult-like tendencies” to “it might be a cult” to “it is a cult.” I’ve used the phrase “cult-like tendencies” myself in the past to describe behavior, and people within and without the body I was referring to came back to me, jammed their finger in my chest and said “So-and-so said that you said we were a cult.” All I am asking for is that if one must use the word cult, there has to be definite guidelines. I suggested some, and got accused of completely re-inventing its so-called definition… a definition that is as rapidly in flux as the latest iPod model. CULT’s history simply makes it an untrustworthy term in the context of the church -and I mean universal church. In turn, it’s no more dishonest to make an emotional appeal to not use the word than it is to make emotional appeal to use it, which is what happens all the time. I’m sticking to that, and I will always fall on the side of not using it, and not just in reference to SGM. Today, I mean TODAY, I heard a woman in a supermarket tell her friend that her daughter’s in “…some cult called Young Life.” Enough said.
As has been pointed out already, there is much about the slavish devotion to CJ Mahaney that seems “cultic” to a Christian outsider. I’d add to that what I personally found off-putting (and alarming, actually, when I got to thinking about it) during our sojourn through our own SGM church, which was that members constantly demonstrated, through word and deed, that they had thoroughly identified their commitment to Christ specifically with their commitment to SGM.
Not all of us do. Some of us actually believe Christ called us out of darkness, and not a bald man in Maryland who has a slavish devotion to the Redskins. There are many, many in word and deed throughout SGM who do not behave this way. Slavish devotion, once again, can be found in all shapes and sizes in many churches in many denominations. Statistical data of this sort does not relegate a body into culthood.
Guy and I had the opportunity on at least 3 different occasions to sit in on what was purportedly a time of “sharing our testimonies.” Our care group leader carefully directed the discussion, clearly telling us to go around in a circle and share about “how we came to faith in Christ.”
But every single person (including Guy and me!) eventually brought our “testimony” around to our love for and commitment to our specific SGM church. In fact, the majority of the “testimonies” had much, MUCH more to do with how the person came to discover Sovereign Grace Ministries than how that person came to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ.
First off, a person will always associate the church they were attending while being apprehended by Christ as a great place… this is a natural response, however emotional and misguided it may be. Also, there will always be a propensity to be excited about the place they are currently in. Be careful in whipping out a subjective healthy-o-meter when people share testimonies, because the same could have taken place in a different non-SGM church. I have just as many stories where people said, and I quote, “I owe everything I have to T.D. Jakes,” or “There is simply no better communicator than R.C. Sproul.” If they really were drooling at the mouth over SGM and CJ and co., then shame on them, and shame on the Care Group leader for not stopping it.
Honestly, PK – if that’s not “cultic” by any definition, then what IS?
See my post.
Just kidding.
And if we cannot use commonly accepted terms to discuss such slavish devotion to a cause that ultimately (in my opinion) serves to distract us from Christ, then how CAN we go about discussing the problem?
Please don’t get me wrong here. I am all for avoiding shutting down discussions and offending people. I even agree with most of what you’ve said with respect to SGM’s essentially orthodox (and therefore non-cultic) doctrines.
But to say that there is nothing “cultic” about SGM practices and unspoken yet very real cultural expectations…well, I think that is simply dishonest. And not really productive to fixing the problem, even if you’re still on the inside of a Sovereign Grace church.
I guess I’m scratching my head on this one… how telling my denomination that its practices and cultural expectations demonstrate “cultic tendencies” will be productive in fixing the problem.
Part of the problem Kris is this faux universal understanding of what “cult” is. However backward Travis or anyone else thinks the mid-20th century evangelicals were, I would argue that this is the defintion that springs to mind in most discussions. It is a word linked with Rajneesh, Mormonism, Unification Church, Jehovah’s Witnesses, etc. etc… all of them denying one or more essentials of the Christian faith. When you call SGM a cult, in the minds of most they simply want to rack us in with all of the above (I’ve seen this in action way too many times for anyone to try to convince me that everyone on these boards has a collective and correct definition of cult except PK), and when you call our practices cultic, most want to rack our practices in with all of the above. As I’ve said before, Kris, I’ve been in a cult that could be ranked with those above -SGM is so far removed from anything like that, it’s like trying to argue how far away earth is from the sun as compared to Venus.
There is also something I need to head off at the pass (this was in no way said by you, Kris, or anyone yet, but I’d like to say it as its come up before in other discussions I’ve had outside this blog). I’ve been told that my past experience in a cult has skewed my view of what a “cult” is, and prevents me from seeing what a “true” cult is, as something only mildly better (ex.-SGM) than what I or my family went through could be a cult anyway. To say this is elitist and malignant is really an understatement. It’s like telling a POW he doesn’t know the true meaning of torture and imprisonment because the hell he endured has skewed his proper view of what torture and imprisonment really is.
Using the elastic guidelines applied to “cult” nowadays, I could seriously argue that these websites -where SGM refugees meet- are cults. Why not? We all share the same terminology when referencing SGM… we are alarmed when outsiders try to point out error… we claim “freedom” from our past slavery, yet feel a need to meet here regularly for “support” and “guidance.” We pat each other on the back for not “drinking the Kool-Aid,” take pride in not being “clones” and “Stepford Wives,” post our thoughts using the same lexicon over and over again, go to bed satisfied we are better than what we once were in that body of waifs and idiots known as SGM, and dare the next SGMer to come in and drop a bomb. At least, these are the very cultic tendencies I see here.
SCREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEECH!
Let’s put the brakes on right now. I don’t believe in any of the above. This is just a brief example to prove my point. I seemed to have had everyone tied up into a neat little package of “cultic tendencies,” and I bet most people who read the above had their blood reach a boiling point or were disgusted to one degree or another with me. Remember this when you toss around the word “cult” and use phrases like “cult-like tendencies.”
Could I have some personal issues with this? I’m not going to be stupid enough to say no. But it goes way beyond that, beloved.
I’m asking for CARE using the word, and if you insist on using it, then you know where I stand in terms of its definition.
My apologies, canary and company for interrupting the good discussion… please continue!
…pk
Travis said:
PK,
Will I forgive you? Absolutely! I was having a good time, and while you got a little sarcastic there, I didn’t take it as mean-spirited… only “spirited.”
So there’s no hard feelings at all on this end, and please forgive me for any I caused on yours.
I would have said something sooner, but my wife has some nasty morning (more like all-day) sickness, and I’ve been pulling double duty around the house.
And I say:
Thank you, brother. You did not cause me to stumble.
I’ll be praying God grant you what it takes to get it done at home, and your family is in my prayers as well.
Take care, and thanks again.
…pk
julie said:
Very well written post. I have said SGM is cult-like before, but I’m not overly anxious to slap on any label for the heck of it. In fact, to just call them a cult puts them in a sort of sureal state that most people can’t relate to when in reality a very large majority of western churches are caught up in legalism that is just as serious while perhaps not so particularly difficult to live with.
SGM is preaching another gospel according to the Galatians description (which is primarily dealing with the false assumption that justification is by faith/grace while sanctification, or moving on, is by obeying the law) , so ironically I would think this gets them in the cult category according to your points. I mean, if you’re not preaching the true gospel, what are you preaching exactly? I have heard a lot of heresy from their pulpits over the years, though sadly I didn’t even know it most of that time. And I think honestly, neither do they.
Anyway, I do agree that labelling them ‘cult’ could be quite counter-productive.
julie:
Thank you for this post… I have even more respect for you now (not that it was ever low) couching your concerns in no less than what Gospel is being preached; it would have been easy to weave the events you went through into the fabric of this post, but you didn’t (not that what you went through doesn’t matter; it does, but you didn’t place it on the same level of importance as your Lord). You stated your conviction with selfless clarity and with the objective of the Gospel in mind, and I really, really, appreciate that.
Stay in the freedom of His grace,
…pk
PK,
I’m so very sorry to read that you suffered in a really bad situation with your family when you were growing up. I couldn’t even begin to imagine what life must have been like or what kind of an impact that would have on a young person. I can only guess that having people use the word “cult” to refer to SGM must almost diminish all the horribleness of what you experienced. I’m so glad you have found your lovely wife and a church where Christ IS preached. And most importantly, I’m glad you know God in such an intimate way. And again, I’m only guessing here so could be way off, but I imagine it must have taken a lot of courage to trust in Him, truly trust in Him, after what you experienced. Maybe that is where the true brave knight in you was born.
S
This is the first time I have read this blog and am very glad it is present. I have been apart of PDI/SGM since 1989…have been apart of three church plants and for a time, my husband was on staff. There is MUCH that I could say but my heart would not be pure in it’s communication as to date, I struggle with hurt and bitterness (something I am walking through with my pastor at the SGM church I now attend). This I will say and have been saying. I believe many Pastors in SGM have become Pharisees. How about that term/name. Cult, is a very strong and dangerous word to use. And I challenge anyone who uses it as I have been through MUCH with these churches. It takes alot of anger and bitterness to use that term against a “body”, and honestly I feel justified to use it…if I felt that way. But I truly believe there are some pastors of SGM that have truly become Pharisee-like. The focus on Puritans and indwelling sin is CONSTANT and true grace is missed by many. The SGM church I am in now is unlike the previous four. I have been to numerous Celebration’s, Small Group Leader Conferences and Leadership Conferences. All have had wonderful impacts on my life, I treasure my times there. I have learned much these 20 some years in SGM. This line we must tread carefully, responsibly. It is my responsibility to go to my brother and bring concerns, observations, sin to them…not to spread to others-this I am guilty of. I am in the process of walking through the “plank in my own eye”, so that I can humbly bring things to leadership…but if we just leave and then spout our difficulties to the masses…aren’t we allowing the Gospel to be mocked?! Arent we dividing instead of bringing the spirit of peace about? Now, after I walk through this process with Leadership, they may choose to not agree with my observations and turn yet another blind eye…but I may stand before my God knowing I tried andresponded Biblically and will keep on trying. I know many people who threw up their hands and walked away and I also know many who persevered and were faithful to the scriptures to bring things. When they were turned away, they prayerfully and peacefully went the way God was leading them. When you ask, they will be completely honest on why they left and the concerns they have and yet you see and hear their hearts. Their hearts are not twisted in bitterness, but concerned for the body. They are not blinded by hurt, but equipped to bring scriptural truths…these are the people i admire and respect. That to say, pastors are sinners and will never lead perfectly. I would challenge anyone who knows a pastor…you know their heart is for the Gospel and for their church…and anyone can be mis-lead. We must pray for these people, whom we believe are in the wrong (a sinful position). Please keep in mind people that I have been through much with Sovereign Grace Ministries, so I do not have a rose petal view. I only hope to have a fore-bearance view…one of forgiveness and the knowledge that my hope is not in man, but in God. I have been neglected, ignored, persecuted even and know people who are walking through much more in a church on the east coast. I am NOT ignorant…I am just proposing that we challenge, HUMBLY, we bring, Biblically, and pray, faithfully. Nothing is perfect, and I am greatly concerned over many a things in SGM, but again, I want to be a faithful steward (Not SGM but of God’s) to bring truth to light. This has been a long, painful journey for me and many others…but what we must also remember is that SGM has done MUCH good too. Let’s not throw it all away…let’s be faithful to shout to the Leadership, turn heads, point out truths and lies…CONFRONT! I truly hope that the pastor of which I have much anger, hurt, bitterness towards, and I can reconcile. I desperately desire this Pastor to SEE, to really see and as of present he is still blind. But until his eyes see, he cannot change, repent and affect the church likewise. This is my greatest fear for the body that I was a part of for so long. Where my heart is…in hope that this church, this pastor will not come to ruin. Many people have knocked on the door, but have not been heard. I pray, truly cry out for the Holy Spirit to rise up and for people to be HEARD. Shouldn’t this be the cry of all Christians?! Instead of tongues of fire being used for evil…how about in desperate cries for help? Help for the pastors, help for the churches….. Sovereign Grace Ministries is NOT perfect…and in some cases really not good at all, but I believe their heart is actually in a place of wanting to do the right thing, follow God and know him more every day. There are many things that make me sad though….things I have heard but more over seen and been apart of. I still hope and pray as there are also pastors I know making a stand and asking questions. And even more so….”Elders” (care group leaders) taking stands, questioning and members being more vocal. I’d share more specific things, but do not want to offend anyone…it is a very sticky road to walk-speaking the truth. The only thing that really ticks me off is how we (and i say we because i am included in this) justify not speaking more to “protect the church”….for heaven’s sake, protect them from what??? THE TRUTH??!! In talking to people in my old church, I get off the phone and SCREAM. Knowing I was a silent when I wanted to scream while living there and now my friends are doing the same. To tell parts of the truth is MIS LEADING AND A LIE and yet, this seems to be a comfortable place for two churches I know of…okay, there is my one vent and possible “crossing over the sticky road part”. So for all of you on the east coast…you may know who this is and I say HELLO to you:-). And on the west I say HOWDY! Truth is truth and should not be twisted or “bullied” in ANY way….period. I pray for the Holy Spirit to come in truth and power to SGM because there is much good to still do and SGM can be used. I also pray for healing for those who have been hurt in unfathomable ways by SGM, may we choose to forgive those who have trespassed against us…
Robyn-
I can see you are in pain… I pray God leads you and heals you.
Peace-MM
Robyn,
I pray God’s loving hand brings about great healing. I admire your desire to protect others, help them to find healing as well and see the truth brought into the light. I know the Holy Spirit can do great work and I join you in praying he does.
Stunned
ps. I was in an east coast church, too.
stunned,
i bet i knew you then or maybe you knew my sister…email me if you feel comfortable:-)
and anyone else for that matter. if you have questions for me or concerns-feel free!
robynmarmon5@hotmail.com
i trust no one will send me hate mail
thank you for your prayers…they are most welcome and appreciated, and please, pray for my little ones (there are four precious blessings) who miss the godly father that walked out of their lives.
Beloved of God, what you have said fits my understanding as well–and PK, I would argue that this definition does not fit the Southern Baptists (at least in my experience with it with all the ministers and missionaries in my family) nor other denominations.
However, PK, I see that this word really troubles you, that its connotations for you seriously rock your faith to the core if folks label SGM with it. Part of me thinks this is — quite frankly — silly, partly because it’s not my Tillichian “ultimate concern.” Part of me thinks — well, this is like choosing not to have a glass of wine around a recovering alcoholic — it won’t kill me to let to say “ok, whatever” and it blesses my brother.
Hey, PK -
Thanks for the greeting, and thanks for responding to my comment.
I think first of all, I’d have to agree with “acme” above, when she said:
We certainly don’t need to use the word “cult” to describe SGM…and especially if it bothers you, PK, it’s not a big deal to me. I’ve always shied away from it anyway, preferring to describe what I see as SGM’s “cult-like methodologies.” But, like acme said, it’s much more important to bless you!
So you won’t be hearing me use the term “cult” on this website…after this one last comment…
I do want to respond to your response when you said,
Did you know that what leads the largest number of readers to the sgmsurvivors site is that they put the terms “Sovereign Grace Ministries” + “cult” into a search engine? And obviously, they did not get the idea to do this kind of query from reading the “survivors” blog…the query was what led them to the “survivors” blog. So I’m thinking that it’s not our discussions on these websites that is driving the use of the term “cult” with respect to SGM. Rather, it seems that there is something (or several somethings) about SGM that cause people to suspect that SGM is a cult.
I could be wrong, of course, but I highly doubt that the Southern Baptist Convention website and the Assemblies of God website are receiving such a great percentage of their hits from people plugging the term “cult” along with the denomination name into a search engine.
Whether or not the term “cult” is being used correctly in the minds of these people is really beside the point. The fact is that there is a perception among folks that there’s something “off” about SGM.
And I believe that if this perception is out there – as it obviously is! – then arguing about semantics isn’t very productive. In fact, trying to control the general public’s use of a term, however ill-informed that usage might be, is kinda like herding cats.
Instead, those inside SGM – especially its leaders – ought to tackle the subject head on. We’ve all agreed (pretty much) on the characteristics that cause people to suspect “cultishness” (or “sect-hood,” or whatever term you’d prefer to use) in SGM. Maybe there’s something legitimate about these observations. Maybe these could be the areas that SGM leadership addresses and fixes. I guess this is why I think it could actually be productive and constructive to acknowledge that the “c-word” is on the table.
Dearest Robyn–
A godly father did not walk out of your children’s lives. A ‘godly’ man does not do that.
Seems to me like they are blessed with a godly mom! And a God who loves you all.
I am so sorry for your pain, only God is good, life is often filled with hurt, which drives us to the Father. But knowing those things does not take away the pain and grief. I am so sorry.
So good to have you here!
Amen. Robyn, we are glad you felt the freedom to post.
Stunned:
Thank you for your kind words. Once again, undeserved. I’m not so much a brave knight as foolhardy one. Apologies to those who think I’m trying to annihilate windmills.
acme and Kris:
I sincerely appreciate the consideration from both of you regarding the word “cult,” but (1) this goes way beyond the whole “it’s a personal thing with PK.” However true or untrue many may think it, it’s shared by many people I know personally within and without SGM. Also, (2) please know that if anyone were to use the word “cult” and the phrase “cult-like tendencies” to describe SGM to my siblings, parents, extended family and friends -who years ago belonged to a “cult” I referenced growing up in- frankly, they’d smile, then laugh, then ask the the person stating so if they were serious. Please stand in their shoes (the four dozen plus pairs -and growing- of them) as well, and don’t put PK and PK alone on a reservation regarding this word.
I think if I keep commenting on this word, it’s just going to confirm my “no end in sight” comment at he beginning of my post, and quite frankly I don’t want to get into a “my dog’s better than your dog” discussion any more with people I care about :the commenters here and on Survivors - No patronization, it’s sincere. The taste in my mouth after my debate with Travis… well, it wasn’t exactly Watermelon Laffy Taffy. I admire Travis a lot, appreciate his intelligence and wit in debate, but I never want a wall to come up -albeit my sin or not- between me and a brother or sister and Christ again in this manner (I’m only preaching to myself here, folks).
Everyone:
Feel free to continue the discussion on the word “cult,” but please know I’m getting off my soapbox now regarding it (definitions, semantics, etc), unless the issue takes another direction that I feel I haven’t covered.
Juli and canary:
I promise I’ll take up the torch on your great posts and comment about them.
Robyn:
Welcome to the ‘Fuge! Thanks so much for baring your heart on your life and current state with SGM. My prayers are with you and your family. With the exception of the occasional troll-bomber, everyone here I’m sure welcomes you as well. To those who’ve responded to Robyn and encouraged her, thank you. Robyn, remember that Christ is sufficient for all things, no matter what your history, circumstances, hurt, sin, good times, bad times… the power of His salvation rests on the past, present and future of these semesters we call life. He is good because He is God!
…pk
PK,
“Apologies to those who think I’m trying to annihilate windmills.”
I’m right there with ya, brother. I’m a tilter at would be dragons a plenty and admire the man who will march into hell for a heavenly cause. I personally think Don Quiote is a hero and can’t understand my best friend who thinks he is a humourous character.
S
Well-this has been quite the conversation.
As is my custom, I’ll quote myself-
Excellent PK!
Maybe it’s a generational thing. When I became a Christian in the early 80’s, cults were defined by their unorthodox beliefs.
SGM’s statement of faith is completely orthodox.
They certainly have some unBiblical practices, but orthopraxy seems to have died shortly after the death of the Apostles.
SGM is not a cult.
I’m going to re-post my earlier post:
PK,
Excellent post. Very courageous and necessary.
I have always hesitated in calling SGM a cult. At the most, I thought of the controlling aspect of my ex-leaders as creating a cult-like atmosphere. However, it is dangerous to use cult as a description, because the world could then accuse all Christians of being cult-like. After all, we are crazy about our Great Leader, and will die for His cause. Too easy to connect the dots.
AND
I agree with you, PK, that SGM should not be defined as a cult. Legalistic would be the word that I would use to describe my own experiences within the church. That is the danger that many Christians face today. Thanks for dealing bravely with such an important topic.
PK, I just want you to know that you are not alone in how you think. Thanks for daring to deal with the topic.
Something I found in Galations, today:
“Oh your poor and silly and thoughtless and unreflecting Galations! Who has fascinated or bewitched or cast a spell over you, unto whom, right before your very eyes – Jesus Christ was openly and graphically set forth and portrayed as crucified?
Let me ask you this one question: Did you receive the Holy Spirit as a result of obeying the law and doing its works, or was it by hearing the message of the Gospel and believing it?” (Gal. 3:1-2, Amplified)
Again, strong words from Paul. I think that we, as the church, have to ask ourselves two questions: have we received the Holy Spirit, and are we under the “spell” of legalism, which reveals itself in how we live our Christian lives? Boy, this is getting better and better, the more I read…
Dear friends,
This post is in reference to Juli’s comments earlier on this thread that we should look to our own hearts in regard to our negative experiences in SGM.
I have shared my story on this blog and on survivors. Most of you know that my experience was nearly two decades ago. I often hesitate to post or decide not to post because I feel like I’m repeating myself. I even feel like I’m repeating myself about repeating myself! At the risk of doing so again, let me share how the Lord brought me through.
It is true that when we first got unceremoniously “dismembered” (to coin DB’s expression) from PDI, our focus was nearly entirely on what THEY did wrong. We were confused, defensive, disillusioned and lonely. There was a period of many weeks and months where I couldn’t sleep at night, I cried often, I tried to make people understand my “side” of the story. I suffered. My family suffered. Even though many years have passed and I am well, it is easy for me to understand and empathize with those in the midst of this same situation.
If there had been a blog available back then, it would have been a godsend. We thought we were crazy. To have others repeating scarily similar stories would have eased our doubts and confusion. But focusing on what THEY did wrong alone would not/did not bring the healing. Nor would it keep me from repeating the same mistakes. It wasn’t until the Lord began to address my own error that I turned the corner. I started to see the motivations of my heart in a clearer light. There were three in particular: pride, fear, and somewhere in there, a desire to please the Lord.
First, pride. When our church was adopted into PDI, I was excited. It’s not that I was dissatisfied before adoption, but I was familiar with the national ministry of the “apostles” of the organization and highly respected them. I was proud to be a part of this cutting edge family of churches. I was proud to sit under the tutelage of these men, receiving the best parenting advice, the best educational advice, the best marriage advice, the best local church experience, the best way of doing Christianity EVER! I was proud that my husband was a leader. I bought into the idea that we were just a little bit (or a lot) better than other churches. I looked down my nose at those poor, unknowing Christians who weren’t part of PDI. I believed that God was uniquely on the move in PDI and His stamp of approval was evident. I wanted a place of honor and good standing within this organization. Let me be clear – this attitude was modeled and taught by many of our leaders, but I was responsible for embracing it in my own heart.
Next Fear. When you think too highly of men or an organization, then you must at some point face the fear of losing them/it. When you think too highly of your reputation or standing in a group, then you face the fear of losing it as well. As our situation progressed and then deteriorated, fear increased. There was fear of man, fear of failing, fear of rejection, fear of being disqualified from the great thing God was doing in PDI. And at the end I experienced the worst fear of all. Fear that God was rejecting me because those men were. Fear that I had lost my standing with Him and because of my supposed sin, He was opposing me. These fears were played upon by the leadership, but once again, I was responsible for embracing them in my own heart.
In time, I repented of pride and fear. I allowed the Lord to teach me from His Word about New Covenant, about how I did not need a second mediator to go between me and a Holy God because I had Jesus, the True Mediator of the New Covenant. I realized that the Lord was serious about providing a way of intimacy for Him and each individual believer. So serious, in fact, that He was willing that I make mistakes in my efforts to hear and follow Him for myself rather than follow after a man, even a very gifted man. To sum it up, I learned (and continue to learn) the ways of grace.
Which brings me to my third motivation: a desire to please the Lord. The Lord very kindly showed me that I wasn’t totally depraved of any decent motivation, that somewhere in my heart I loved Him and was trying to please Him. I was just going about it the wrong way.
I think for some of us grace is hard to grasp- not hard to understand, just hard to grasp. It is too good to be true. We know we don’t deserve it. The lengths that the Father and Jesus were willing to go for us are shocking. As a result, He separates our sins from us as far as the east is from the west and remembers them no more! Why? What kind of love is this? It is easier for us to grasp the fact that we are screw ups and need to work our way back into His favor. Thank God He has a new and better covenant.
So, for Juli, the Lord called it idolatry. Kris makes some excellent points about folks who choose SGM being from dysfunctional or abusive homes, looking for a second chance at a normal “family” of sorts with a strong leader. For me, the Lord called it pride and fear which led me into the legalism that Canary speaks of. He will reveal to each one in His time.
However, let me stress, while I believe it is important that we look to our own hearts as we try to understand our SGM experiences, this process can not be rushed or forced. If the Lord had told me I had sins to repent of weeks or even months after we were kicked out of PDI, I would not have survived it. We were already wading through the man-made list of sins that precipitated our need to be dismembered, many, if not all of which were completely off. The Lord was much more interested in reaffirming His Love for us and our safety and standing in His Kingdom. He took a good long time to do so in our case.
The Lord will take each one through the process of healing in His own way. There may be similarities, but there will be differences as well. Be careful not to fall into sin-sniffing of yourself. Let the Lord speak in His time. There may even be some of you who have handled your SGM experience in a wiser manner than we did and the Lord would only say, Well done.
Gracie said:
“The Lord will take each one through the process of healing in His own way. There may be similarities, but there will be differences as well. Be careful not to fall into sin-sniffing of yourself. Let the Lord speak in His time. There may even be some of you who have handled your SGM experience in a wiser manner than we did and the Lord would only say, Well done.”
Simply an outstanding post.
I think one of the hardest tasks for a Christian is to look at the underbelly of ourselves and what sins of our own may have contributed to disasters in church. This is very hard in an environment -as some have described here and what I’ve experienced in the past- where it’s all about your sin and how difficult you’re maing the leader’s task. I think, to use Gracie’s term, “sin-sniffing,” is ever so difficult to internalize given the difficulty of also easily slipping into legalism and making ourselves vulnerable to the wolves inside the church (and, as it has become apparent on these blogs, the wolves are everywhere).
For myself, I’m guilty of trying to intellectualize everything. If a leader could make a smarter argument than me, my submission was dependent on that. This is very stupid on my part, as we know that smarter people are simply smarter sinners at times. It’s also a double-edged sword: I used to tend toward ignoring a leader if he wasn’t -in my warped mind- smarter than me, and on the other side, I would tend to ignore a smarter leader by slapping him with a Pharisee label (which wasn’t always deserved). I think at those times the phylactery on my forehead was probably the size of Jupiter.
I speak like this is past tense. Maybe I’m simply under the illusion that I’m doing better in this area, but my hope and prayer is that it’s God’s ongoing work.
…pk
Wow, Gracie! The true grace of the Father is just flowing off your words. Like a bonfire radiating intense heat, that grace radiating from your post feels enveloping. In fact, I think I will nominate it to be an “official” sgm Refuge post!
As pk said —- Outstanding!!
Gracie,
Your post is very moving, and hits every nail on the head with a big wallop! It is good that you remind us not to go “sin-sniffing”, and to let the Lord reveal everything in His own time. God’s conviction is tender and merciful. When we are able to understand our own responsibility in being drawn to legalism (though there is much fault with the teachers of it!), there is a huge sense of relief. Now we are on the right track. Now we can see Jesus for who He really is. Now we can know that we have been forgiven for EVERYTHING. It is truly a cause for worship.
Gracie, your post will help others reading this blog who are lost and confused. You just put a sign post in the ground that says, “GO THIS WAY TO FIND GRACE!”.
PK,
“intellectualizing” is an easy thing to do when there are leaders telling us to have a “passion for doctrine”. There are too many brainiacs in church leadership, and not enough of the heart, not enough abiding in Christ. The leaders in my old church seemed more likely to abide in theology. There was little power or grace because they seemed unable to abide in order to really have Christ’s heart for the sheep. So much of our legalism, etc. would fall away if we should learn to abide in Christ. Pastors would have hearts to care for the sheep because that is Christ’s heart!
PK, you have a great heart towards God’s people, which must mean that your “intellectualizing” is further in the past than you might think. I can see it in the way your write and in the way you speak of your “beloved” SGM. So, keep going, friend!
Great posts-Gracie-I think you’ve really described the pain and process of coming out of a world of hurt, but still allowing the Lord to lead and even correct- but now in the light of Grace, love, and acceptance instead of the legalistic burdens of fear, confusion, and condemnation.
Peace-mm
Gracie and Canary – you two have perfectly illustrated EXACTLY what was on my heart for others to see and hear from those who are healed – how you got there. The process, while different, did eventually involve our hearts. And I was just feeling that the blogs had focused far too long on blaming SGM – there is a time a place for that, but eventually you have to back off in order to be healed. I am encouraged and relieved that no one took my suggestion to focus on our own hearts in this as sin sniffing, the Lord cautioned me on that – and I agree with you Gracie, there is a time that is too soon for that – and for many on here it is too soon, because as you said they need to be reassured of God’s grace and love. Our view of Him was warped by our SGM experiences, and He must corrrect it before we are corrected. But the bottom line is this – the healing process is ongoing. Never stand still in one place too long. God won’t let us, He loves us too much!
You brothers and sisters are a blessing indeed – thank for sharing your hearts, you have edified the Body here reading, and I have to testify that God is being glorified here and I know His heart must be pleased to see the love and grace we have for one another on here, despite our differences. We are beginning to live out the unity in Christ the CHrist Himself prayed for in John 17. Awesome!
I was just thinking I hope PK is being blessed by the fact that no one has gone postal on him for writing this essay on the non-cultiness of SGM.
We’ve all been well-behaved and everything.
DB,
You are so right. If we can disagree on concepts (that are not the basic doctrines of our faith) and still be friends, we are getting somewhere! It has been a privilege to know you all.
I thought I’d add this link, because it is the church my brother-in-law is a part of. He is the one I spoke ofon the SGM survivors blog who is divorcing his wife because she no longer wished to be a member of Calvary Temple, in VA. This article shows how controlling other churches out there can be! The sad thing is that the media is now involved.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/.....8111502769
canary-your post was stuck in our over zealous spam filter for far too long.
I’m buried at work right now, and not doing a good job of minding the farm.
I’m sorry.
Jim,
No problem! Hope the work load eases up for you, soon.
wow, canary, that was an amazing article. but i’m not sad at all that the media is involved. it could help many people just as this site has. who knows how many people it may warn, or bring healing to. thanks so much for sharing this with us.
stunned
Stunned,
When you read something like this, you wonder how it could possibly happen! I’m only glad that Starr Scott’s congregation has gone from 2000 down to 400. It shows that many of the members wouldn’t submit to someone like him. That’s encouraging!
I know the article isn’t about SGM. It does illustrate, though, that a little leaven will leaven the whole lump of dough. My brother-in-law, who is involved with Calvary Temple, has pretty much told us where to go with our counsel about divorcing his Christian wife (a very sweet woman who could no longer submit herself to the church’s practices). We aren’t in his “church” so we are not justified in his eyes. Sounds a little familiar to me…
Yeah, very familiar. Not that I have EVER experienced SGM telling someone to divorce a spouse because they were not a member. If anything the opposite, I know people who have been dismembered because of their spouse but in my experience they have never asked ME to do the divorcing of my (icccck, I can’t tell you how hard it is for me to type the h word- I’m not kidding, I can’t even type ex-h- even that I just had to go back and retype ’cause I didn’t even use the “e” at first it was all so distasteful- wow, get thyself to a therapist soon, Stunned!)… where was I? Yes, in my experience they have been good at telling spouses to stick together rather than sticking to the church.
In my experience.
btw, canary, i’m so sorry to hear what your family is going through.
I, too, am relieved that 1,600 people have been able to escape and protect their children from that atmosphere. I hope things with your brother in law and his family can be improved. (Wow, how weak did that sound. I guess I’m not one for large leaps of faith nowadays.)
Stunned,
That’s okay. We don’t have much hope of my brother-in-law doing anything differently. Maybe our faith is low. Or maybe we see how brainwashed he is, how hardened his heart has become. So sad.
SGM never got as bad as Calvary Temple. Thank God.
SGM has not gotten as bad as many places, but I think if you were to ask anyone at one of these other churches how it started, their early days would look alot like SGM does now. That is why the truth must be spoken. Keep the leaven from spreading more than it has. Snatch some from the fire…(Jude 23)
As of Wednesday night, some in my former SGM church have been officially “informed and warned” about my blog. Maybe some will come on this site or survivors site as a result, I hope they do, you guys would be a blessing to them. Keep in mind I am from a small town in the South, not in a suburb of an East or West Coast SGM church. Please pray for the believers here, the warfare is intense, and many hearts are on the brink of either being hardened further, or softened by His grace and mercy.
As for my own voice in this struggle, I decided to stop blogging. I will keep my blog up for a reference, but no more posts. I’ve said all there is to say about my own journey out of SGM. It’s time for me to move on and begin my journey of faith, giving attention and focus to the future, not the past.
You guys have been a tremendous support and encouragement to me through the last 6 months since I left my church. You’ve seen me at some pretty low points, and I have been so blessed and encouraged that you have modeled true grace, exhortation, correction in love, and have spoken the truth and pointed me and others to Christ. THAT is the way a Body should function. The sad thing is, it took all of us being hurt and then going online before we saw how it is supposed to work in the Body of believers.
My prayer is we take our lessons learned into all the world, all kinds of churches, and preach the good news of Jesus Christ, His redeeming love, His law, His grace, and build up the Body of Christ wherever we are, keeping watch for the leaven at work.
For me, this journey is beginning in my small town. God is at work here, and He is jealous for His Name. I’ll pop in to visit every once in a while and see how you guys are, and give you some praise reports as to what is happening here, and I will continue to pray for each of you. Those who want to email me privately you can do so at libertyinchristATliveDOTcom
May God continue to pour out His grace and COVER each of you! I love you all!!!- Your Sister in Christ, Juli
Kris and Guy, Carole and Jim – thank you, for everything. One day you’ll know the impact and extent of your obedience and sacrifice.
Juli,
Look at you. Six months later and ready to move on with your life. It took some of us years! This means so much to me. You have been a special blessing to us, here, with your openness and good counsel. Your heart for Jesus has spoken volumes to those who read the site. Thanks, Juli, for your willingness to be used of the Lord to help others find their freedom in Christ. I have to say, YOU GO GIRL!
I agree with Canary, Juli. Six months is relatively short order for healing and moving on. The Lord is good! We’ll be looking forward to your “popping in” to visit, hoping for a good report about your small town. Blessings!
Canary,
I just took the opportunity to read the article about Calvary Temple you linked to earlier. My goodness! THAT is where your brother-in-law goes? Frightening. I have to say that even though SGM does not approach that kind of weirdness, there are things in that article that remind me of patterns within SGM nonetheless. I have family members who have been strongly encouraged not to speak to other family members because of their “sin”. I guess it’s something like “turning them over to satan.” It seems strange to me that when a person is in the worst place in life that God’s people would be silent and cold. I need to read that ”turning them over to satan” passage in context for myself. I don’t feel I have the balance on that yet.
Gracie,
What amazed me about the article on Calvary Temple were the responses afterwards. Members posted, defending their leader with the same mindless zeal that some SGmers have responded with. THAT was scary to me. Too similar. The same zombie-like following, in some ways. Their leader could do no wrong. My brother-in-law thinks like that. Very scary. Very real.
I did not see this extreme form of pastor-worship in the SGM churches I was involved with, but the seeds were there. We would hear no wrong against our pastors. People who left were dealing with sin. There was alot of secrecy about why others left. Leaders protected each other. They shared things about members behind members’ backs. Members shunned those who didn’t agree with the church, or left it.
I do understand that there are exceptions in SGM. Not all leaders there are out to control their sheep. Legalism can be found in churches across the nation. Hopefully, Christians will read blogs like this and begin to comprehend how bad it is to live under “another gospel”. Hopefully, the church can deal with the leaven of the Pharasees before the world has to get involved. I’d hate to see a 20/20 headline about controlling churches in America. But God knows what is needed…
Juli –
Don’t be surprised or dismayed if you find you’re having to do more SGM damage control in your life in the future.
Working through grief and trauma takes time and can have cycles.
However, congratulations on getting over this huge hurdle in your life.
Blessings.
PK and those who said they and their families were in a much worse cult, and so SGM, by comparison isn’t —
I grieve for you. I also experienced an overtly worse cult previous to SGM, and I understand your pain.
To say a kitten is not a feline because it’s small is to deny truth. Just because something is not the same in degree does not mean it is not the same in kind.
May God help you (and me) to recover, to see the light of life again, and to feel the presence and love of God again.
Thanks.
Beloved,
I am one of the former culters (cultists? cultees?)…thanks for your good insights.
My argument is exactly that of kind and not degree, I made the elephant analogy earlier: SGM is not an elephant, but parts of it sure look like one. However, smelling like an elephant is different than being an elephant.
At the heart of it, we are all disagreeing on what constitutes an elephant. We would certainly agree that to be an elephant, one must have elephant DNA.
Terms need to be agreed upon before discussion. Each one of us is defining cult differently–therefore we have to agree to disagree and simply enjoy the discussion.
I would insist that a cult include, along with extreme social aberrations, wrong doctrine–most specifically the dotrines of salvation, efficacy of the cross, inerrancy of the Bible, and the divinity of Jesus Christ.
So, although SGM smells like a cult in terms of its weird social stratas, missiology, and polity–I would argue that it does not fit the sniff test in terms of its doctrinal stances. I would probably call it an odd sect–or on a bad day I just throw things at the wall and cry because my beloved students will never be called to missions…or show interest in a lost world…or sit next to a brother/sister of the opposite sex and discuss a movie or shoes or the meaning of life without everyone in the whole freaking place either rebuking them or asking when the wedding is.
I dunno. I just wish they would turn their people free to find full life in Christ.
What are your definitions of a cult? And how do those apply to SGM? I would like to think about this some more.
Having been in mainline churches most of my life and then being in an sgm church, at first ,to me, it seemed the same. What I mean by that is-loving people, teachings seemed to be right on(at least at first) and the culture had a closeness we liked. But as time went on, without going into detail, things didn’t fit right.
That being said, since we left, I feel like I’m in a fog. No one is telling me how to think, not think and when to perform. To me that feels like a cult. I’d say that it’s the closest thing to a cult I want to be involved in.
Anxious,
I remember that feeling, that foggy-like thinking. When I left SGM, all the voices shouting at me gradually stopped. By this I mean, the demands that kept me from resting in God suddenly weren’t there anymore. Then I was able to learn how to hear the Lord’s gentle, quiet voice in the silence. Keep going. He will speak and you will recognize Him.
RT,
I feel for you. It is obvious that you love your students and desire that they understand what freedom in Christ means. Those poor kids won’t know the real world when it hits them smack in the face, eventually. How will they handle it?
Just a quick comment. IMHO heresy and culthood are unrelated. There are heretical churches which are quite liberal and tolerant and orthodox churches that utilize all manner of abusive practices. They really are on two different axis.
There are lots of lists for cultlike behavior but the easiest one is this. Is disagreement seen as persecution particularly of the leader? If so you generally dealing with a cult.
Actually, instead of ‘cult’, the bible speaks of legalism. In Galatians, Paul labels it “another gospel”, which he goes on to say is no gospel at all, for legalism is not good news. I think it is important that we understand how this blight on grace has tempted the church away from Jesus for centuries. If the leaven is allowed to grow, the church will become like the Pharisees during Jesus’ time. It’s everywhere. It’s insidious. It’s dangerous and a grace-killer. The law under the old covenant will steal our freedom in Christ, if we enable it. Under the new covenant, the law is written in our hearts, our penalty has been paid, and we are justified in Christ.
Thank you all for sharing your experiences. Thank you Jim and Carole for creating and maintaining this site.
A Tale from Virginia
My wife and I began attending SGM in 1992 when it was PDI. I had been a Christian for four years and moved to Va. Beach to attend Regent University. When we visited the Church, we fell in love with the worship and the solid theological grounding that was being preached. We were drawn right in by the Care Group members and it was great to be a part of this church. We were a part of SGM for 10 years. The last year, it felt horrible to be a part of SGM.
For the last year prior to relocating to Arizona, I wanted to leave SGM with every fiber of my being. I prayed, but never felt released by God to go. God and I struck a bargain, so to speak, wherein the move would be our split from SGM. My intent was that I wouldn’t darken the door of another SGM church for the rest of my life. I was bitter. I was angry. I was tired. I declared to myself and my God that I would not speak evil of anyone in SGM. I am no longer bitter. I am no longer tired. I am still angry, but it is an anger toward the blindness that has fallen over so many people I once prayed with . Perhaps the full tale will eventually be told, but it could fill a book. As such, I would simply like to point out a few of the things I witnessed there which seems to run against the grain of Scripture.
A bit of history: Over the years, we served as Care Group Leaders (and were allowed to participate in all the reindeer games), walked through the painful loss of two premature sons, taught in children’s ministry, regularly tithed, helped organize the yearly Evangelism Outreach (read membership drive), and we were on a first name basis with all the Pastors and CG leaders. We remained on good terms with everyone before we moved to AZ and harbor no ill-will toward any we knew.
1. Over the years, almost everyone we saw leave the church did so (we were told) because of “issues of pride” on the part of those who left. In some cases, we maintained close relationships with the people who had left and this did not seem to be the case at all. In too many instances, these “unnamed” persons became a sermon illustration.
2. SGM is an INSIDER church. Once you are a CG leader or other aspect of ministry, you get to go to the Leadership conferences, “parties,” and other events. It is an exclusive club. Once we stepped down from leadership (“a coveted position,” I was told by one who respected my decision) because I felt that the group was too ingrown and not flourishing, we were quickly uninvited to the reindeer club. A good number of those folks who left for issues of pride actually left because they were OUTSIDERS who weren’t invited to lunch, etc.
3. If the Pastors have met and discussed an issue and they agree with one another on the matter, the discussion is over. Your position is simply wrong. “Discussion” of such things merely means that two or more of the Pastor’s and/or CG leaders will be arguing against you and trying to convince you of the error of your position. Refusal to “submit” to herd-think is proof of “intellectual pride” and “arrogance.” You will be given a recommendation of the right book to read. You will argue until you are blue in the face. In my case, I received a very clear word from the Lord prior to one of these meetings and He told me what they would say. When the words came out of the Pastor’s mouth, almost verbatim, I nearly fell over. I pointed out that the Lord had told me this is what they would say before I even arrived. I’m one of those “prophetic word” sort of guys who has received a word on about three occasions. In each of these instances, there was absolutley no doubt it was from God, and was always confirmed in a number of ways…based in Scripture, accompanied by the power of the Holy Spirit moving in my solar plexus, and coming to pass. Nonetheless, I was wrong.
4. There can be no such thing as a “radical, free-thinker in love with Jesus Christ.” If you hold to a position that is at odds with the SGM theology, and you are in leadership, you will be praised if you remain ever silent on the matter. Thinking and doubting are sins and there is a Scripture passage or a book that can be prescribed.
5. Despite the pecking order of leadership in Scripture…Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors and Teachers…in the SGM it is “Apostles” and then “Pastors” followed by “Care Group leaders.” In Virginia, the vetting system for the microphone for worshippers to bring “prophetic words” was overseen by a great man with a long history of speaking prophetically who was a member in good standing for 15-20 years. In my last year there, it was decided that one of the junior Pastors would be covering the microphone and “judging” the word.
6. During the Larry Tomczak debacle, we were in leadership. I clearly recall a meeting wherein one of the Pastors/Apostles told us that Larry was strongly cautioned against “speaking evil” against SGM/PDI because they knew everything about him…with the implied threat remaining unspoken.
7. If a number of SGC members began meeting outside the context of Care Group or church meetings in order to have a “Backyard bible Study,” and began inviting neighbors and kids over, it would somehow be drawn into the activity of the church, and then co-opted and taken over, only to see it moved and then eventually led by new leadership.
8. A guy with a bacterial brain injury decided to go to a Pentecostal church that was having a “healing service.” He simply wanted prayer that God would heal him and decided to go since “healing” was the focus of his need. In casually mentioning to a Pastor that he went and was prayed for, he was “cautioned” against this sort of thing because he didn’t have any idea “who their covering” was.
SGM is about control. I agree with your position about throwing around the word “cult” lightly. Over the years, I witnessed a great deal of love, care, kindness, compassion and gentleness. Most of this emanated from the day-to-day church members. In times of trouble, command and control are the watchwords of the day.
As I wrestled through how to handle this matter, prior to moving to Arizona, I wrote many letters that I never sent. I prayed many prayers. I wasn’t sure what to do with all of the things I had seen and experienced. The word has stuck with me, however. The words the Lord gave me prior to my last official “meeting” with two of the pastors a month or so prior to moving were these: “As it was in the days of Pharaoh, even now I am hardening their hearts and placing a blindness over their eyes.” Likewise, “They will call you prideful because you are sure of my voice and arrogant because you claim to hear my word.”
My hope is that none of my words ring with bitterness. There is none meant nor is there any that is felt within my heart. Know that my sense of humor is a bit slanted, so my intent is often misunderstood when I am attempting to make light a period of my life that bore enough weight of its own. We actually did darken the door of a SGM church a year or so after we arrived in Tucson, and stayed for about 9 months or so…but that tale is for another time, and was within the sovereign will of God for a number of different purposes that were achieved. The Lord placed the final nail in the coffin himself and we are now members of a great little Baptist church where we attend and serve faithfully.
Let us be faithful in prayer for those who cannot see and beg the Lord of Heaven to open the eyes of the blind. Even today, I see how God used me to begin the eye-opening process of a SGM member I met while we briefly attended in AZ.
Soli Deo gloria!
Canary – Your words are so on target!
Digital Raven – I so enjoyed reading your post. This is one of the things I like most about my new church – there is no pecking order. It is SO amazing & freeing to me. They function as a body and a team. It astounds me after seeing SGM. No leaders are fawned after where you get all tingly just because one of them to spoke to you.
It is like if you were asked to do something in a leadership role it would just be another way you could “serve” God and the church. It is not a matter of moving up the ladder. And service teams at my church make decisions together. Unlike SGM there are no “star” players while the rest of us that are picked last stand in the background ready to do what we are told, keeping our mouths shut, and secretly hoping one day we will hear “well done” from the church gods…
Digital Raven,
thank you for sharing your story with us. It was both a blessing and a bit painful to read, due to it’s accuracy. Many of us need to be confirmed time and again that we were not nuts for the way we saw things. From someone who served in the church faithfully for more than 15 years, almost never once missed a Sunday meeting let alone any homegroup or prayer meetings, cooked, baked, baby-sat, worked at the church office for free, taught children’s ministry, cleaned the offices, etc. etc, yet was never let into the inner circles and never would have been, it is a great comfort to read that someone who was “in” with the cool kids admit that there was indeed such a group, such an in crowd and out crowd and everyone knew it, though denied the existence of it.
Last month Dave Harvey handed the reigns over to another man at Cov Fel. For Dave, there was an formal (tuxes and all) party. Of course, it was also an exclusive party. None of the “lower” church riff raff. Just the upper echelon of the SGM society. It made me so sad that the people who were paying for the party couldn’t even go to it.
Stunned
though I shouldn’t be
Thank you, Digital Raven, for telling your story. It rings so true with what I experienced in over 20 years at CLC.
I want to share this prayer from sgmsurvivors here too (which for some reason is languishing in moderation).
Lord, in your mercy, as you changed Saul’s heart on the road, change the hearts of the leaders in SGM. Blind them with your truth, help them to see how they have persecuted YOU in their pride and arrogance, and transform them–heart, soul, mind, body, and spirit.
Lord, you are the Good Shepherd and you care for the sheep, seeking out the lost, the hurting, and the frightened.
Have mercy, Father, on your little ones–in particular, I pray for the second and third generations who have known no church but SGM, who do not know the joy, freedom, variety, and real grace to be found in the Church Universal.
Have mercy, Father, on those who are dealing with mental illness, depression, and addiction–conditions SGM is particularly ill equipped to handle–guard their hearts and minds from foolish and harmful guidance and lead them through to real help.
Thank you, Jesus, for all the ways you love and take care of us. Show us again how long and wide, high and deep your love for us is. Help us to love each other, as You have loved us.
D-Raven-thank you for posting. Welcome!
“all the reindeer games”- I love that.
As a former member of the club, I felt a sense of entitlement. My thoughts at the time were:
Why should I pay to go to a SGL’s conference? I’m becoming better equipped to serve the church.
The annual CGL retreat and Christmas party are fair compensation for working my butt off all year.
I’m not sure if the other CGL’s shared in my sin. I do know this-we were ALL grateful to the Sr P-as if he was spending his own money on these functions.
SGM pastors-IT’S NOT YOUR MONEY. I understand that it’s fun to play santa, but when one man rule includes discretionary spending, it would serve you well to remember what you teach-it’s God’s money.
The “accountability” system among SGM pastors only encourages this type of mentality, as they are the most entitled.
Ask your pastor who paid for his new i-phone. Ask him who pays for everything.
It’s you.
Vote with your wallet. You won’t be “robbing God”.
Thanks for all of the kind comments.
I am grateful that I have found this site. It is comforting to know that I wasn’t “crazy” for seeing and feeling the things I experienced. The Baptist fellowship I am in now truly demonstrates the heart of God. We were loved into the congregation by the simple act of a Pastor who visited us when my wife was in ICU three years ago following a very serious accident. When we attend services, we are loved and welcomed. When we have to miss sometimes, we are loved and welcomed. When we go on vacation, we aren’t made to feel that we must schedule it in between Sundays. Our Pastor takes vacation and actually stays away from the Sunday service in order to rest or attend services at another church. People who drift out of the church are welcomed and loved when they drift back in. How good and how great it is when brothers live together in unity. Our small building is used by all sorts of people in the community for purposes of Outreach and simply because large building spaces are often needed by Aerobics classes, 4-H, Music lessons, etc. What a contrast from SGM.
Despite our being in leadership and being “among the faithful,” when we were getting ready to move, former members of our Care Group asked to use the “facilities” at the new building for our going away party. They were advised by a junior Pastor that leadership would have to discuss the matter as it wasn’t an “official church function” to see if it would be okay for us to use one of the classrooms and the kitchen. They hadn’t heard back by the time we left and we ended up having it at our house to show everyone all the work we had done inside and in the back yard. It was great to be surrounded by those we loved dearly.
It wasn’t until our long drive to Arizona that the weirdness of that situation occurred to us. Imagine…the audacity of someone asking to have an “unofficial” gathering of believers in the new building in order to wish other believers well on their travels to a different state. Ten years of time serving and caring and tithing so the building could be built…only to be unwelcome to use the edifice which our blood, sweat, labors and money had built. Just plain goofy. Rather than being upset or bitter over that particular issue, we simply found it amusing because of how absolutely strange it was.
The one commandment should be painted on a sign at SGM fellowships for all to clearly see:
“All animals are created equal, but some are more equal than others.”
Soli Deo Gloria!
Stunned said:
“Of course, it was also an exclusive party. None of the “lower” church riff raff. Just the upper echelon of the SGM society. It made me so sad that the people who were paying for the party couldn’t even go to it. ”
Having been a member of PDI since the early eighties (my husband and I left in 1997), we saw this happen frequently. The sad thing is that it creates in the church “riff raff” a sense of envy and failure. It sort of reminds me of high school, when all the popular kids hung out together, and wouldn’t let anyone else in. Very childish. This shouldn’t be happening in the body of Christ.
Digital Raven,
Thanks for your courage in sharing, here. Another person speaking out about their experiences in a controlling church is needed, and just confirms what we’ve all experienced in one way or another during our SGM days. Welcome!
“The sad thing is that it creates in the church “riff raff” a sense of envy and failure.”
Isn’t that the truth?! I can’t begin to recount the horrible fruit resulting from this. I used to pray, pray, pray that someone would reach out to me. I was always reaching out to others. DB can tell you I was in an unusual situation, but after years of constant rejection in my own home church, I think it may have made me a bit socially “off”. What I mean is, my self perception was a bit bent. Surely, there must have been something wrong with me since I was so rejected for 15 years. Funny thing was, where ever I went while I was there and after, I was totally accepted and welcomed.
In the Sahara I spent the night laying in sand dunes discussing education with an Argentinian woman, a Chinese pharmacist and a Berber who had never spent a night under a roof while we stared at the stars. In Spain I worked with a famous Oscar winner. A professional basketball player and wealthy winery owner invited me to his family vineyards on the other side of the Atlantic. I lived with Africans stripped of their citizenship due to racist reasonings, where we all got along in loving ways. I was welcomed into homes in Turkey, by people who only knew me for days. I was offered cars to use and beds to rest in in New Zealand, where an entire community invited me to live permanently. I was offered jobs by sophisticated business people in London and Geneva. I was befreinded by the successful and the failures. By artists and homeless. I’ve been honored at weddings down under and welcomed by UN dignitaries.
But in my own home church? I was a reject, who just couldn’t fit in, though THAT was the place I longed most to belong to. THAT was where I desired to glorify God and be part of the sweetest place on earth. Unfortunately, it was only the sweetest place for those who are allowed in. For those of us who felt the pain weekly for more than a decade and saw it on the faces of all those kids who grew up there, but who, for no reasons up to them, just didn’t belong, for those of us who saw the pain on the face of others as they sought to find the key, the doorknob to let them into a place of love and acceptance from their own church body, yet never fit in despite their best attempts, it was a place of agony.
It was like a bunch of “cool kids” who weekly stood for an hour telling all the others how awesome it was to be in the inner sanctum of their circle, yet when you cried over not being able to be included, they would 1) tell you you weren’t in because there must be something wrong with you and 2) you were in sin for wanting to be in (though at the same time, weekly they kept telling you how you should WANT to be in it.)
Trust me, this does not come from someone struggling with high school pain which I am dumping on others. I think I was the happiest teenager on earth. Even at 15 I remember standing in the ocean singing, “I’m on top of the world and I can’t get any higher” and being amazed that I didn’t suffer what it seemed every other teenager suffered. I had been the super nerdy kid all through elementary school so understood rejection, but for some reason by high school I didn’t experience any of it. So no, no sour grapes from school here. I was the super secure girl, who still could recognize when the jerky popular kids were being mean to the other kids. I never stood for it and would set any of the other popular kids in their place in an instant if they were not being kind to someone else. They were smart enough to listen. How sad that my own pastors, after knowing me for 15 years still weren’t willing to listen to how their actions were causing so many others in the church pain. (That is why we were “invited to find another church”. After having addressed a few things to them where they were causing pain to others we were told we apparetnly didnt’ trust them enough.)
All this to say 1) this ain’t sour old grapes carried over from wanting to sit at the cool table in the lunch room. This is from SGM mistreatment of others and myself. 2) It turns out I wasn’t completely socially messed up. I HAD the ability to play nice with others (I don’t run with scissors either!), but it was not me that was “off”, it was SGM. (Unless the rest of the world is socially “off” like me, and it is only those in the upper echelon of SGM that have appropriate social skills and have the “gift” to see that the rest of us are screwy and they alone are correct. Of course, in spite of everything, I still find myself questioning myself. “Maybe there was something wrong with me.”
Exhausted remembering what it was like. What it still feels like some days.
The “cool kids” aren’t particularly cool.
It really is a lot like high school.
Big fish in a tiny pond.
I’m enjoying my life as a dork.
I’m enjoying my life as a dork too, Jim
Odd thing is, once you’re out of SGM, you realize everyone ends up at the same level regardless of their former status in SGM: shunned and rejected. It doesn’tmatter if you were a pastor, leader, teacher, servant or who you were while inside the family, but if you chose to go outside, then you are pretty much disowned by them it seems. I was nobody really in my church, although I depserately wanted to be somebody, which was my first vulnerability and sin. It set me up for the legalism and idolatry later on, that is clear to me now.
I see a dangerous strategy – gravitate towards those who are “needy” and vulnerable in some way, fill the need once you know it, and hook them in. If it is finances, then the church would give money, if it was a family you didn’t have, they would become your family, if it was emotional or spiritual security, they were it. Problem is, all these things are supposed to be done by Jesus in our lives. WHich is why for me, my church was my idol, and the people there were my idols. I don’t want to assume the motives of the church by implying they knowingly took the place of Christ, but the end result was often unbiblical, even if the motives were pure in their own minds.
Ironically, my former SGM pastor counseled me on a seperate occassion over two years ago that in the Bible, God made it clear what we were to do about idolatry- and it wasn’t to play with them – it was to smash them and destroy them from our lives. Yet when I confessed idolatry to him (and OF him) he acted like I was insane! Suddenly, when the idol was the church, SGM, or the Body of Christ, smashing the idol was not an option anymore, because I NEEDED the church and Jesus DIED for the church, so those wonderful God-given gifts could not possibly be idols!
Didn’t understand his logic then, and still don’t. An idol is an idol. And why in the world would I confess to a sin that bad if I wasn’t guilty of it?? If they had just acknowledged that sin, and helped me through it by pointing me back to Christ, it would have made all the difference. But they were either incapable or unwilling, not sure which.
DIGITAL RAVEN - welcome to the FUGE…look forward to hearing of God’s faithfulness to you and your family over the years inside and outside SGM!
Welcome, Digital Raven!
Thanks for posting! What you and Stunned wrote made me recall so many things that I haven’t thought of in quite a while.
Ellie
Stunned,
At least you can see now that the problem in SGM wasn’t “all you”. There is serious error when leaders desire to control their congregation instead of guide them. I remember the same words being spoken to my husband and myself: “I’m sorry you don’t trust us enough.” What in the world do you say to something like that? (smiley man rolling his eyes)
““I’m sorry you don’t trust us enough.” ”
and what is ENOUGH? to drink the kool-aid? to not point out mistakes? to not expect them to be perfect?
Juli,
I appreciated your comments. I believe I was drawn in to SGM due to my move to a new place (Va. Beach) and the insecurities of being in a new area with no relationships. It was a loving, ready-made spiritual home. I DO believe, however, that SGM was less controlling when we first became involved…at least it seems that way now. Interestingly, I always had a strong streak of independence (read “sin of pride” and “fear of man” here) so I never actually “coveted” leadership nor quite understood that comment when I decided to step down from being a CG leader (I always thought ‘coveting’ was a sin). Due to my close friendship and relationship with my CG leader, when he became a Pastor, I was defaulted into the position.
When I met with my former CG leader (now Pastor) during the Larry Tomczak debacle, I was focused on my own inadequacies. I recall discussing with him my genuine concerns and anxiety that I was, perhaps, unfit for the task…after all, a man such as Tomczak was disqualified. I still recall his odd response. He said he wasn’t sure what my motivation was in bringing these concerns to him…as though I had some other sort of agenda and he wanted me to clarify what it was I was trying to achieve. I merely had concerns about my own abilities to lead in the face of such a huge crisis in the SGM movement and my own perceived inadequacies. I believe I was eventually offered some encouragement and good advice, but it really struck me as odd that my genuine concerns were initially met with “suspicion” that I had some other sort of motivation.
I truly agree with Jim’s position on the word “cult,” but would really like to have a way to define what we have experienced. Do we call it the “sheperding heresy,” “dysfunctional,” “domineering” or what? I think being able to define exactly what the problems are and being able to accurately label SGM practices would make it easier to address SGM members and leaders.
On the flip-side, do we address and confront SGM leadership, or merely lay members of SGM? Knowing how the core basically “circles the wagons,” I feel that it is a lost cause to attempt to confront leadership. I have a former employer who still attends SGM and has a number of growing concerns. He has communicated how he can’t exactly put his finger on what it is that he feels uncomfortable about, but that he “feels” something isn’t right. As he shares examples, I simply encourage him to examine and explore his concerns. Right now, he is stuck in one of those quasi-leadership positions, so his motivation to explore his concerns are bogged down in the ruts of what I believe he knows that he will probably find…that he needs to walk away. This is not always an easy task as many know, so I am standing back and praying and only offering insight when he asks for input.
So how DO we define our experiences?
‘Due to my close friendship and relationship with my CG leader, when he became a Pastor, I was defaulted into the position. ’
You were defaulted into the position of CG leader? Are you kidding me? Oh my gosh, I can’t tell you how GOOD it is to hear stuff like that. Things sometimes seemed so illogical there, as if this job was sometimes about who you were buddies with and not other things. Can I just say a big Thank you for sharing this?!
Stunned,
I understand completely. I guess I should have answered the trust comment with, “No, I no longer trust you.” I think the remark was so odd that I just couldn’t quite find any words to respond!
As far as CG leadership: My husband was asked to lead a CG. He was told that the leaders were “taking a chance” on him. What do you say to something like that? Just plain weird. We eventually left that church only a few months into CG leading because we became a part of another church plant. Thank goodness we never got that deeply involved in the upper echelons ever again. It would have been so much more difficult to disentangle ourselves from the organization. We worked in the Children’s Ministry, so our leaving only caused a little ripple in that church. Of course, it was a major tidal wave in our personal lives. One that we survived by the bountiful grace of God!
Pondering on my own experiences and the question I raised above, I recalled an interesting piece of history.
Sovereign Grace gained its name as a movement when our church changed its name to Sovereign Grace Church of Chesapeake. After a number of months, PDI began shopping a name change around the churches in the movement. It was felt that PDI, “People of Destiny, International” sounded too “cultish.” We sometimes joked that we were POD members. Anyway, due to our proximity to the mothership and the pastoral relationshps with CJ…and because we had chosen a great name…PDI adopted our name as the name of the movement.
We had changed our name to Sovereign Grace because of our obvious focus on God’s sovereignty in all things and because His grace was fully sufficient as He was the author and finisher of our faith.
Right about the same time, SGM began to focus more intensely on the Puritans and the theology of indwelling sin. While SGM constantly declares God’s Grace in the pulpit, in practice, YOU are responsible for eradicating the indwelling sin in your life. Grace was sufficient for salvation, but it certainly wasn’t enough for a life of holiness and purity…that was up to your hard works. This practice resulted in a near constant cycle for many (most) of: failure/guilt and grief/more hard work/brief success…followed again by failure, etc. A failure or refusal to “work on yourself” was its own proof that you were “prideful,” “arrogant” and weren’t “submitting” to leadership ordained over you by God. I agree that one must work out one’s own salvation in fear and trembling, but I have found more success in recognizing that God’s GRACE is the primary component in making forward progress. Just as there are Type A and Type B personalities, there are those who make progress by Grace alone. In SGM, this was not recognized as a possibility. Despite its Charismatic core, there is often a refusal to recognize that God’s Spirit moves as He desires and that He can’t be confined in the box of SGM theology. The passage about “having a form of godliness, but denying the power” comes to mind. If leadership agrees that it is a move of God’s Spirit, then it is…if they agree that it isn’t, then it isn’t.
Soli Deo gloria!
Canary,
If I were you I would have been dumbfounded. As it was, it’s taken me 7 years to respond myself to that same accusation. I was soooooo stunned when they said that. I don’t even think I could have formed the words, “Huh?”
And the “taking a chance” thing? Who AREN’T they taking a chance on? And a chance of what? Crazy, crazy.
D-Raven-re your 3:18 post, I simply state that SGM has an unbiblical view regarding pastoral authority. I believe that the most serious consequence of this view is that it can hinder the Gospel.
That’s why I think that all SGM issues are polity issues.
I’m a simple guy-maybe my description is too simplistic.
D-Raven,
After the name change, did you get the memo that “we don’t want to call ourselves SGM”?
Stunned,
That would be my general assessment of the situation. This is not to say that I had/have glaring issue of sin in my life, etc. I graduated from Seminary where I led a small group and was certainly very active in our CG and volunteered/was appointed for various tasks and responsibilities. I was, however, almost certainly another one they were “taking a chance on,” as I don’t fit the stereotypical mold of a goose-stepping herd-thinker. I tried awfully hard not to think for myself and tried to allow leadership to think for me, but I guess it was just too much for me…the sins of my “arrogance” and “intellectual pride” ultimately raised their ugly heads and I fell into the sins of allowing myself to think and question, as well as to believe that I actually heard a word from the Lord.
My humor is not meant to communicate that I am without these particular sins, but I am and was very aware of them. I always prayed and sought God’s help in rooting these issues out and sought out others to determine if my positions, issues and communications appeared to evidence these sins. Apparently, the only ones who saw these “sins” were members of leadership. Others indicated that it sounded like honest, open communication and questioning, originating from a desire to know the truth.
I certainly considered it an honor to be in leadership, and I don’t feel that I wasn’t qualified, but I guess I just didn’t “covet” the position enough to want to hold on to it to the detriment of others in my CG. I desired for them to grow in their relationships with others. Likewise, I was wrestling with my own faith and was weary of pretending. I felt they deserved better.
Jim,
I think your position is a very good starting and ending point: “unbiblical view regarding pastoral authority.” This does seem to encapsulate the majority of SGM issues. Perhaps I misunderstand your feelings on the depth of the severity of the issue. You indicate that the “most serious consequence of this view is that it can hinder the Gospel.” I believe this is a MAJOR consequence and represents a very severe issue…rejection of Scripture as the final authority for faith…and that it contains within itself the possibilities of doing much greater damage than just hindering the gospel.
I don’t wish to sound like “chicken-little,” but my concerns over SGM have certainly grown since I was last involved there.
Digital Raven,
Now THAT is the kind of leader people need- the one more concerned with the people below him than the people above him or his own “position”. (Though thinking for your self or listening to God’s voice does sound awfully dangerous. I hope you’ve stopped those nasty habits by now.)
Just out of curiosity, where did you go to seminary? (Don’t worry, I won’t be impressed by spiritual or “intellectual pride”.) My dad was enrolled in one seminary when he and Mom got married and both of my sisters and my niece were married when their husbands went through seminary so I’m often curious where people went to get their MD.
D-Raven,
I’m with you.
I might tend to under-state my feelings towards SGM these days.
My experience there, along with running this site for almost 6 months has left me weary and jaded.
Digital Raven
One big thing the name change from PDI to Sovereign Grace Ministries was their move towards Calvinism. From what I understand, the term Sovereign Grace and Calvinism are pretty synonymous. Before this, they had more of an Evangelical viewpoint on election. The group’s move towards Calvinism increased after Larry Tomczcak left the group.
Calvinism teaches that man has no choice with regard to salvation that God sovereignly elects some to salvation. That that God chooses has no choice but come to Christ. Those that God doesn’t choose has no possiblity of being saved. I personally don’t believe in Calvinism. There are some scriptures that can be used to support Calvinism and others that seem to contradict it.
Some Baptist Churches call themselves “free will” Baptist Churches to make the distinction that they don’t believe in Calvinism at that specific church.
This move to Calvinism was one of the reasons Larry Tomczak chose to to leave PDI which he alludes to in his book “What Do You Believe About How People are Saved.”
You said:
“When I met with my former CG leader (now Pastor) during the Larry Tomczak debacle, I was focused on my own inadequacies. I recall discussing with him my genuine concerns and anxiety that I was, perhaps, unfit for the task…after all, a man such as Tomczak was disqualified.”
I understand at least one person in leadership in the VA Beach was quite involved in removing Larry Tomczak (probably not your former CG leader). It wouldn’t surpsrise me if when they heard you say what you said, they thought you might be fishing for some information from them on what happened to him or maybe they thought you were alluding to something they did there.
Jim,
I guess you’ve had a rough time these past six months as you’ve led this site. It’s too bad that we can’t all physically stand beside you when you come up against the critics. You’d look around and be amazed at the support you’d see. But, since this is only “cyber” support and we can only show you words, my words are a great, big
THANK YOU from the bottom of my heart.
Canary, that is a lovely picture you’ve painted. And I am in agreement. Jim, it would be nice to see how many people are standing behind you and your wife in this time. I’m guessing it would be a bit crowded.
Canary and Stunned,
That’s very kind of you-thank you!
There’s been a stressful moment or two (like when I killed the blog), but there is no huge burden.
PK came along at the perfect time, as I was out of time (work obligations) and felt like my bullets were either missing their mark, or would have no effect on the borg.
I really felt like I had said everything that I had to say except in regards to polity. When I compared what I was writing to what PK was writing, I liked his material more than my own.
The emails we receive are very hard to read, but so are the stories posted here and on survivors.
I don’t know when it happened, but at some point, Carole and I realized that SGM was in much worse shape that we thought it was.
To be honest, I’ve probably lost any real hope for reform.
Digital Raven
You stated, “This practice resulted in a near constant cycle for many (most) of: failure/guilt and grief/more hard work/brief success…followed again by failure, etc. A failure or refusal to “work on yourself” was its own proof that you were “prideful,” “arrogant” and weren’t “submitting” to leadership ordained over you by God.”
I like reading your posts. As much as I see these things and know them to be true it is always comforting that others see it as well. I was so frustrated with the move to Calvinism. Not with the doctrine itself(which I do disagree with), but it came at the same time as the self-confrontation manual – then the messages about how we need to observe and confront other’s sins - to the point it became the “others confrontation manual”; I found people would quote to me what I needed to do in my life and what my sins were based on something from the self-confrontation manual and not scripture. I don’t care how much scripture is written in a book – only the bible is the “Word of God”. And you can observe outright sin in someone’s life but don’t try to tell me what is in my heart or what motivates me or that I am so sinful that God can’t speak to me and that is why they have to tell me the deep hidden sin of my heart….wow, good to know that they are more effective than the Holy Spirit. I can’t hear the Holy Spirit because I am so sinful…but, I could hear them. It is so good that God has their help to do what He is not able. The whole cycle to me was sickening.
ah, butterfly, the sin police. i’d have to say that is the number one reason I am glad to be out of there.
Digital Raven and Stunned,
Your experiences are bringing back painful memories.
Stunned, I am still stunned (excuse the pun,) that they treated you like that.
You were always one of the cool kids in my mind.
I am enjoying my status as a hopeless awkward nerd.
DB, isn’t it funny how our perceptions of ourselves is so different than how others see us? I think I was in that church for 5 years (maybe more) before I had my first invitation to have dinner at someone’s house. You know I went to every church meeting, homegroup/caregroup, prayer cell, women’s meeting, etc. But since my husband was not a believer, we were NOT considered worthy of sharing an evening meal. And I can’t tell you how many times my kids were denied going over someone’s house because of that. At times, the parents would say no right in front of me and tell them to find someone else to invite!
I tried to convince myself it was all my imagination… I was not “beleiving the best”… I was in sin somehow, “accusing them” in my heart… until finally one of the families leaving the church asked my forgivenss for all the years they ostracized had my children. (Somehow it was comforting to have some sort of confirmation that it wasn’t all in my head.) Funny, the very kids who needed to see homes with loving dads were the ones most denied access. Breaks my heart. That often happened with the kids of single moms, too. Who knows what kind of evil lurks in the homes of the heathen? (Or the hearts of our SGM bretheren.)
Sorry to bring back the painful memories, DB. I wish I could believe that there are vulnerable people at SGM who are not suffering that kind of … bigotry?… prejudice?…judgement?… I don’t know the word. I just know my last couple years I saw broken hearted kids walk into that new building every Sunday knowing this was the place of their greatest rejection because they were too heavy, too different, their parents weren’t together, their parents weren’t perfect people, they were too worldly, too something… yet at the same time, never enough. I saw them walking through the doors, crushed from the years of rejection. Very painful to watch. Very painful.
Oh, Stunned, your post rings too true. I begged the pastors, the caregroup leaders, the men in my caregroup for a man to take an interest in my son, to include him when doing “manly” stuff with their own son(s).
not
one
man
not
one
found it
in his heart,
in his calendar,
to reach out to my boy
One or two expressed an interest
They could not see how he shines in my eyes
how good and smart and sweet and strong he is
how troubled, yes, but how funny
how awkward, yes, but how wonderful
even his father cannot see it
and sees only that he is
NOT like those other CLC boys
Jim and Carole,
Happy Thanksgiving weekend. Jim you said in the above post that to be honest, …I probably lost any hope for real reform.
Sometimes I am sick to my stomach of SGM, as my family and friends participate in this hoop de la. I wanted to encourage you Jim, TO PUT YOUR HOPE in CHRIST. and keep HIS FAITH that HE WILL BRING REFORM, OR BRING IT DOWN. I’m really not saying that to be mean (just because it is in all caps), but to remind you of the strength and power of our GOD. Jim, He will not be mocked. Just take our lives, we are out and we are free….that was not the case a few years ago. You are doing your part and you do it well Sir. God will contend with the rest. Let’s pray together and see.
Stunned,
I attended Regent University in Va. Beach, VA. Though originally called CBN university and being founded by Pat Robertson, it actually has a very sound body of Professors and Pat Robertson has very little impact or effect on the School of Theology. His viewpoints and perspectives were typically given little credence by the instructors and his positions were, at times, completely eviscerated in the classroom.
Steve240,
When we first began attending PDI in 1992 in Chesapeake, VA, many years before it became Sovereign Grace, they were already resting on solid Calvinist theology. Charismatic Renewal Theology, by J. Rodman Williams was the primary theological work they were referencing at the time as Brent D was a close protege of J. Rodman Williams. I attended seminary at Regent University in Va. Beach and sat under his teaching as well. I still tend toward a calvinist theology. Their turn to focus on the Puritans and indwelling sin did begin around the same time, but you are correct that it became a greater emphasis after Larry left. Just before we left, one of the Pastors described SGM as being “essentially reformed, but more Charismatic than you think.” I would disagree. They are much less Charismatic than they would like people to believe and moves of the Holy spirit have to be sanctioned by the Pastors to actually be considered genuine.
Jim, I appreciate your work on this site. I truly hope that the blog is not too much of a burden, but I know what you mean by feeling weary and tired. I can recall every Sunday becoming a chore. When I was asked why I felt this way by a few who were close to me, I could only state, “I’m just so tired and weary of arguing all the time” and having to constantly defend what I think. I finally just decided to shut up and endure until we relocated to AZ. My litmus test now is to pay close attention to how heavy the yoke feels within a church body. Right now, it is easy and light. When I began attending SGM here in AZ, it felt much lighter than back East, but over time I began to see and feel the same sort of heaviness beginning to creep in. God stepped in at that point and moved us elsewhere. My wife was involved in a serious car accident and was in ICU. During her stay in the ICU and recovery afterward, NOT ONE of the Sovereign Grace Pastors or members in Tucson called, stopped in, sent a card, flowers, etc. NOT ONE! They were made aware of the situation through my empoyer who attends there and by my current Pastor who had a relationship with the SGM Pastors. After my wife recovered, we took this as a very clear sign that our time with SGM was over.
I now liken SGM to a slowly sinking ship. Though the Captain and crew are in charge, those who are most familiar with the integrity of the hull and state of the engines are the grease-monkeys who are in daily contact with the cold steel which separates the water from the inside and who listen to the hum as the engine plows them through the deep waters. In this way, the grease-monkeys can be equated with Rats on the old wooden sailing ships of old. Once water began to penetrate the hull, you would find the rats beating a hasty retreat from the lower holds of the ship in order to escape the obvious calamity.
The ones in the know have their fingers on the pulse of the engines and see the integrity of the hull. Their primary goal once they feel the water coming should be to save their own skins and the skins of family and friends and to alert as many as possible that the ship is going down. Nonetheless, the goal is clear. The lifeboat. There are many who have more patience and faith than I with SGM. I wish I could say all of my motives and intentions were completely pure and holy, but I cannot lie to myself and others. I just got sick and tired of being sick and tired of attending church and feeling that my yoke was breaking my neck and that the burden of SGM was beating me down. Five years after leaving Chesapeake and now three years being SGM free, I can honestly say that I love attending church services and serving the Lord again. I feel free to share with others and expect to hear encouragement and Godly input without feeling like I am taking another beating or having to argue my point.
We finally wised up and, like good rats, noticed the water was coming into our boat again. We thought the AZ boat was different, but it turns out that it was crafted by the same builders as the one in Chesapeake.
May God richly bless all the good rats who have managed to make it off the ship. My hope and prayer is that ALL the rats make it off…rats really can’t save a sinking vessel.
With so many years in SGM, I was well indoctrinated in how “there aren’t very many good churches out there.” What I found was that was just a load of BS. If God moves you, He will place you where He wants you for His purposes…and, YES, sometimes He does have you remain on the sinking ship long after the most “sensible” rats have scurried to safety. Before we moved, I felt no sense of peace in the idea of leaving the church prior to our relocation. When we began attending here, I had no sense of peace in not attending SGM despite the hour drive (one way) to church and my growing concerns with the direction of leadership within the movement. In both cases, there was an appointed time and there was peace and no sense of bitterness in the decision to leave.
I now know that I will never be a part of SGM again, but this knowledge comes from a freedom in and of Christ. It is not my own obstinance, bitterness or the anger of a reactionary decision. Instead, it is the clear knowledge that the Lord…the TRUTH…has set me free.
Soli Deo gloria.
I have been reading the comments here, admittedly, not all, as my time is very limited right now… as I posted earlier, my parents are not in the best of health, and need a lot of help and care. (Thank God! they seem to be getting better, but at 78 years of age, they still need some looking after)
It still amazes me to hear of the abuses in the leadership ranks of SGM. Jim has stated in multiple posts that he believes it all goes back to the faulty polity issues SGM adheres to. While agreeing with him, my heart and my thoughts always turn to the sheep, the members, who live with and suffer the effects of SGM’s “trickle up” belief system.
While in our SGM church, I also saw many children ostracized… children who needed friendship, needed to be included, needed to know that they fit in, that they were accepted into the church, this local body of believers, that they were accepted by God. What better way to express God’s love than love and acceptance? When these issues were brought up to the pastor and youth pastor, they didn’t think it was important enough to address. Jim kept confronting these men on this issue, to no avail. Some of those kids now have grown up and have left the church behind… their thoughts and feelings being “Why would I go to church? It’s painful there.” It breaks my heart to know that they have turned their backs on the most loving God, the One Who created them and accepts them just as they are, all because of an unloving, unaccepting church.
Do they not realize that God created each and every one of us, in His image? That we are each unique? That we each have a job to do, that He has given giftings to accomplish that job? And because we each have different jobs, different giftings, we are not all going to look alike and act alike?
I also saw (and listened and talked to and prayed with and cried with) many women who were not included in the life of the church. Single women, working women, women who (gasp!) didn’t homeschool their children, women who were not “Stepford wives” and had no desire to become one. They were “not on board”, so they were left on the fringes, left to wonder what was wrong with them. BUT… leadership wasn’t so picky when it was time to serve… whether it was to clean the church, babysit their children (for free!), teach children’s church, make a meal, etc. These were the women who were asked to go above and beyond, to sacrifice their time and their money, because leaders wives were far too busy to do these mundane tasks. If these same women, who weren’t usually given the time of day by leadership, refused, even for a valid reason, their “sinful hearts” would be called into question, and they would be pushed even further to the fringes.
For a church movement, those that profess the love of God, to turn their backs on people, to push them to the sidelines, to cause them to think that there is something wrong with them, just because they don’t look like SGM, talk like SGM, smell like SGM, and live, breathe and bleed SGM, be it kids or women or men, because they don’t measure up to their (very human) expectations is a travesty, and I believe that God is not pleased.
It literally makes me sick to see the elitism that embodies SGM. This caste system is not of God… it doesn’t honor Him, it doesn’t represent Him. It is skewed, it is wrong, and I wonder how much longer they will be able to get away with it without God ripping it apart.
And this is just one of the many, many ways that SGM’s arrogance and elitism is walked out for all to see.
I just don’t get it.
Oh Dear Acme,
I feel and know your pain. This happened too often (one child suffering that was too often, though) and clearly, not in just one of the SGM churches. It’s too sad
“BUT… leadership wasn’t so picky when it was time to serve… whether it was to clean the church, babysit their children (for free!), teach children’s church, make a meal, etc. These were the women who were asked to go above and beyond, to sacrifice their time and their money”
Carole, preach it sister! You’re so right on.
Hi Digital Raven,
Welcome! Thank you for sharing. I too have been reminded of many of my own PDI experiences while reading your posts. We were in PDI in the 1980′s. When my husband, who never really gave up thinking and hearing the Holy Spirit’s leading for himself as I was apt to do, bucked the powers that be and declined to serve in the capacity they deemed best for him, he was called “independent” and “a problem.” Like Canary, we were told that we didn’t trust our leadership. And the honest answer to that (also like canary) was that no, we didn’t trust them to the extent they wanted to be trusted. To an ungodly extent, IMO. They wanted to be trusted to hear God for us. We were expected to put their supposed direction from God for our lives above our own relationship and direction from God. No can do. To them, the logical conclusion of our inability to trust their leadership in our lives was that we had to go.
In summing up in a few words what the biggest issue is within SGM, you mentioned shepherding heresy, dysfunctional, domineering. Yes, yes and yes. At the time we called it dictatorship or control. Didn’t go over very well.
A non-SGM pastor floated through our PDI church once. His comments were interesting to me. He said every church has it’s particular bent or flavor. In his view, PDI was an elder factory. Most of the emphasis of the church was placed on identifying and raising up like-minded men who could someday become elders (or pastors). This pastor did not state this as a positive or negative thing, just as an observation.
But it definitely has a down side. As I think back and listen to the heartbreaking stories of stunned and acme and others who didn’t fit the mold and as a result were never allowed “in”, the elder factory makes sense to me. If you did not fit the mold and therefore were not potential leadership material, you were not worthy of their time and effort. In our era, this was not spoken directly, but was done nonetheless and justified by using Scriptures that likened their approach to Jesus choosing the twelve and investing in them rather than the masses. While I understand that a man only has so many hours in the day and can’t minister to everyone’s needs, I believe SGM has taken this too far.
Stunned and Acme,
Again your posts tug at my heart. Sometimes I want to charge into my local SGM church (where I’ve never attended) and make a fuss, knowing that they have no power over me now and I could do so without fear. But I think more appropriately, I will ask God to help me be sensitive to the pain of dear folks all around me who just need someone to take an interest in them.
Gracie,
Thank you for the compassion you are showing to his lost and hurting sheep. If only the shepherds of the SGM movement had that heart, many things would/could be different. I heard that comment about Jesus focusing on the 12 many, many, much to many times. Knowing that I and mine are not and never will be one of the 12 is heartbreaking if you think of Jesus as focusing on them mostly. He loves and cares for us ALL.
Before a friend left SGM she went to the pastors with the scripture about Jesus leaving the 99 sheep to go searching for the lost one. Oh, if only they had heard that! Instead they insisted it was their job to “protect” the 99 from the one “bad” sheep. How grievous. How so not our Lord.
Wow…all these posts are like reruns of my own involvement with SGM. Surely, the more of us who speak about our experiences, the more others will be set free from the awful leaven that crushes grace!
I do have one thing to add. It is about the children. Because some very loving, Christian neighbors moved next door to my home when I was a child (8-9 yrs), I began to hear about God from them. I was in a non-believing family. They took me to church meetings and Sunday school. We played with their children. I began to believe in God because of the influence of these people, who over-looked my parentage, my awkwardness, and my bad temper! Years later, at the age of eighteen, I gave my life back to Whom it belonged.
I credit these Christian neighbors for the openness I had in believing that God existed. Later, when I was old enough to understand, I turned to the Lord. My point is that we never know what influence for Jesus we might have on a young life, for good or for evil. If a church or a leader or a prophet has no heart for the children, I stay well away from them. I want to imitate Jesus, who welcomed the children to Himself when others tried to shoo them away.
God help all the little children who have been hurt and overlooked by the very ones meant to love and welcome them. Lord, You won’t overlook them!
Carole,
There was passion in your post. Very, VERY well said!
Canary,
What a beautiful story. Thank you for sharing it.
Stunned
Stunned,
You’re welcome. I wish I could say “thanks” to those beautiful, Christian neighbors. Children are so precious to Jesus!
heavy yokes. Heavy burdens. That describes the life in an SGM church perfectly.
You know what I am just now finding out? That as someone pointed out, even though grace is preached from the pulpit as the sole means of salvation, it is NOT preached as the sole means of SANCTIFICATION. We ARE left to deal with our indwelling sin and wicked hearts with suggestions from John Owen! Who, by the way, must have been a very sad man. He strived in the flesh to perfect himself, and how he, and us all who were in SGM, and htose there now, could read Galtians and MISS THE POINT??
Paul said, having begun in the spirit (grace) why is it you are now trying to be perfected by the flesh?
That simple truth is lost in SGM> They think legalism (when we speak of it) and think in terms of salvation, not sanctification. They certainly don’t preach slavation by works, but they do preach sanctification by works. And that is why they are Pharisees, and it is leaven, and ANOTHER GOSPEL.
I’ve been afraid all these months to really admit the bad doctrine, but there it is, plain as day: sanctification by works. It’s unbiblical. And the fruit of this teaching is evident as people increase in things like homeschooling, modesty, courtship, submission, dominionism, etc etc etc. These are all things with the appearance of godliness but are not of God.
I homeschool, I dress modestly, but I now know that God doesn’t love me MORE because I do, AND He doesn’t love my sister LESS who doesn’t do those things!
For me, that is the bottom line. Grace…
Juli,
I agree whole heartedly that we must call legalism what it is – another gospel. In fact, as Paul said, it isn’t even a gospel, for it is certainly not good news!
I love what I’ve learned in Galations. Lord, by your Spirit, get the leaven out of the body of Christ! Show us where it is in our own lives and help us treat it as severely as Paul did. We want to offer a pure, untainted Gospel, so that all people will be drawn to your Son, Jesus!
Juli said, “That as someone pointed out, even though grace is preached from the pulpit as the sole means of salvation, it is NOT preached as the sole means of SANCTIFICATION.” So well spoken! I’m right with both of you on that.
Paul said, “having begun in the spirit (grace) why is it you are now trying to be perfected by the flesh?” Props to you on that one, Paul.
“We want to offer a pure, untainted Gospel, so that all people will be drawn to your Son, Jesus!”
Amen, Canary.
hehe..I didn’t spell check before , but interesting things happen when you don’t spell check your own words!
“They certainly don’t preach slavation by works.”
I think I invented a new word: SLAVE-ATION..instead of salvation. Kinds of fits with SGM I suppose, since the church is played out to be our savior and spiritual covering, and therefore takes the place of Christ and the atonement in our lives.
Slaves to the church, not slaves to Christ. Sad.
Juli,
Slavation – good one. That’s what it seemed like. Now we are free!
Looking at the numbers.
“Sovereign Grace Ministries” produces 57,900 results.
“Sovereign Grace ministries” + “heresy” produces 5,040 results
Granted, these results do not ALWAYS indicate that the site is about SGM being involved in heresy, it is encouraging to find that 8% of the SGM results are coupled with this term. It is nice to see that three of the top ten results DO report on the heresies within SGM.
word is getting out – by His Spirit, not by google (even though Google is the means, it is the Spirit prompting people to search in the first place, myself included)
the Kingdoms of man alway crumbles eventually – one day SGM will enter the realm of religious movements that strayed/failed as many others have. There is nothing new under the sun. It (the driving force behind SGM and other movements that cause bondage and not freedom) will come back again under a new name, new leaders, repackaged, to decieve others. Unless Jesus comes back that is …
Come quickly, Lord Jesus.
Today I was sitting in history class and we got into a discussion about the difference between religion and cults. Immediately I thought about this site and tried to remember what was talked about here. As people tried to explain a cult, words like strict, prophet, and brainwashed were being thrown around, the question came to mind that I didn’t get a chance to ask the class, do people actually call themselves cults or is it only a term used by people who think a group is a cult?
Having been in Sovereign Grace my whole life and rarely been to churches outside, it was hard to understand why people thought we were a cult until I went to college. That’s when I started wondering, are we a cult?? I sure can understand why people would think that! I have since decided I don’t think we are a cult, but I can chuckle to myself at the many ways we look like a cult – some mentioned in my earlier comment about overused phrases.
Sure, we have strict rules, some which I don’t necessarily agree with, others which I find very helpful for keeping myself in check. Yes, I see the legalism, I struggle with it daily. But I can’t say that has always been a problem. There were many years in which my walk with the Lord was a delight and its more my laziness that I have strayed some over the years. I understand problems with some leaders, I’m grateful to say I have not experienced it personally, and in fact my experience with my pastors has been so graceful and it was so evident they cared for me. I’m grateful for friends who went away to school and didn’t go to SGM churches while away – when they are back in town it is SUCH a breath of fresh air!! Although us who stayed home worried for them being out of the safety net, they have done so well and are experiencing God and his grace – even outside of SGM! Shock!! Listening to them talk is so refreshing and helps me to meet with the Lord just through talking with them and hearing how well they are doing.
Anyway, I’m rambling… I just thought I’d drop by again after thinking about this post in class today.
eponine,
I am one who shares your opinion that we cannot call a church whose basic doctrines of the faith are scriptural a cult.. I think the Bible, especially Galations, deals with the problem as legalism, which Paul calls a different gospel. Leaven of the Pharisees is another term. It is something the church has struggled with since day one. Jesus addressed the Pharisees in Jerusalem. Paul confronted Peter in front of everyone when he would not eat with the Gentiles after Jewish church leaders came to town. Timothy was faced with the leaven when he went to Jerusalem with Paul, afraid that the Jewish Christians would expect him to be circumcized. Fortunately, that temptation was resisted.
It is all about not abiding in Christ. We attempt to sanctify ourselves. What that really turns out to be is self-discipline. We may do it for God, or we might do it for ourselves, so we can look good to other Christians. When the Lord sanctifies, it is real and it sticks. After years of battling with a paralyzing fear, it wasn’t until after I left SGM that the Lord was able to address it without man’s influence. I never thought I’d be free, but I am. It is truly a miracle, and God’s sanctifying hand.
As for groups calling themselves cults, I doubt it. The word has such negative connotations that an organization probably wouldn’t embrace the title. I really think that word could backfire on the Lord’s church if we aren’t careful in how we use it.
Eponine, it is good to hear you thinking and observing the world around you. To see that the students who go away to college come back strong in the Lord is a testament to how completely the grace of God can cover His people. HE keeps us safe.
Eponine,
I just wanted to say that before I even read your post, just when I saw your name, I smiled knowing you had posted again. It’s nice to “see” you again.
S
Canary, I understand your thoughts on using the legalism label; and I also agree with Kris because I too found the site by typing in Sovereign Grace Ministries cult. I also looked in cult books to see if they were listed yet.
But, all that aside I don’t want to define them by my experience there but by the word of God. I do think it would be wrong to define Christ’s bride as a “cult”. I am grateful for this conversation because prior to this I wasn’t sure how to define them in conversation.
I also think when you use the word cult it can make your experience there feel worse and more violating. I also think it does malign the word of God to the world.
I think if I was sharing my experience there I would still have to be truthful. I would say that I found them to have legalism and control issues – no different then what Jesus said about the Pharisees in the day.
I think if I was sharing my experience there I would still have to be truthful. I would say that I found them to have legalism and control issues – no different then what Jesus said about the Pharisees in the day.
Well said, Butterfly. I really feel strongly that the leaven in the church is what keeps the body of Christ from being effective in this day. If we can let the Lord, by His Spirit which He left us, reveal the ways in which we still practice the old covenant, we would see the gospel in its true light. Centuries of dust and build-up have covered our message, and nearly nullified it to the unbelieving. To the world we are hypocrites, or bible thumpers, or irrelevant. The true nature of the Good News is so much more than we allow it to be.
Certainly, we were warned by Jesus that the world would hate us, but let them hate us for loving Christ, not for hypocricy or irrelevance. Don’t let them hate us because we are mindless robots who cannot think for ourselves, who follow controlling, insecure leaders. Let them hate us because they see Jesus in us!
This reminds me – my own former SGM pastor admitted that people had accused him for years of being in a cult – now I found that odd when he said this, since it never seemed to affect him to the point where he stopped and thought “well, am I?” and this was BEFORE SGM. I grew up in the town where the SGM church is and I too thought for years “something weird is going on out there”. Others felt this as well, including area pastors and believers I have spoken to about it. Even before SGM, the church had a reputation in the community for being isolated, introverted, and not community focused. Certainly not considered evangelistic. The size had not changed in 25 years really. Not many conversions. Not much fruit. It seemed to be stagnant and lukewarm.
Then, SGM arrives on the scene and this once dull, unmotivated, isolated and independet church is now part of somethng bigger – namely, Sovereign Grace Ministries family of churches. SGM validated the church in some ways. And brought some legitimacy to it, even I sensed that only after a couple of years. People started visiting from other SGM churches, but it was more of the same sheep-swapping and sheep-stealing but no conversions. If the Spirit of God is at work, won’t people be born again?? Reformed theology considered, there would still be people being born again if God was working and the gospel being preached.
So at what point, if everyone says you are wearing blue, even if you think you are wearing green, do you check to see? Of course EVERYONE else could be wrong, but I never got the impression that my former pastor or anyone in SGM has really taken the time to honestly address the fact that people are calling them a cult, or cult-like, whatever you want to call it. Why don’t they respond to the “accusations”? What are they scared of? Are they scared? Are they in denial? What am saying is that if you feel so confidently in what you profess to believe, then you should never be shaken when those convictions and beliefs are tested, attacked, etc. Paul said to give a defense.
I know that SGM doctrines and practices are certainly not the same thing as the gospel, but in a sense, lets take Paul’s advie to heart: give a defense SGM! Why do you still maintain that you are NOT a authoritairan church? If you are not legalistic, how are you not and how are you grace-based in practice? How do you explain the multitude of people coming out of your churches who are being convicted of legalism and idolatry, and others who are stripped of their joy? SGM’s silence is telling, to say the least.
Canary and Butterfly, I usually tell people I was in an authoritarian church and experienced a degree of spiritual abuse. I acknowledge my experience at SGM was nowhere near as horrible as other churches and denominations, but that doesn’t diminish my pain, deception or need for healing any more than the need for say, a Mormon to heal from the spiritual abuse they endured.
All this so say that at the core is spiritual abuse as a result of an authoritarian structure. Many other denominations are like this and others have experienced varying degrees of it: Catholics, Charismatics, Pentecostals, Baptists, Mormons, JW’s, etc….so it is packaged differently in each, but at the core it is all about authority and control.
Juli,
I undestand what you mean. It is about authority and control. I also think some of the “corrections” come purposely to test loyalty. I have known some really strong Christians that got the confrontation for a spirit of pride thing. It goes well for them if they just agree and act like some change has happened. If not the people are soon very broken hearted as all love and friendship is cut off and they are made to feel like they are now second class Christians.
It is terribly sad because there is nothing more painful than spiritual abuse or control however you label it. I have been physically abused by my father and sexually abused by two other family members, I hope to tell you that the spritual abuse was by far the worst, without question. There is nothing more cruel then to leave someone thinking God no longer accepts or loves them; for one that deeply loves God there is no greater loss. It took a long long time about 12 years for me to really get they don’t have that kind of control. That God alone is God, He is the way the truth and life; there is no other that can redeem or condemn me, there is no other name under heaven by which I must be saved. It breaks my heart to think that even one person might still be experiencing this there…
Butterfly, I totally agree with you – the thought that someone , even one, would think that the Lord does not love and accept them on the basis on Calvary breaks my heart too and probably the Lord’s as well! He said ti was finished, yet men still strive to gain his approval, pleasure, and blessing through “obedience” and behavior modification – that is why teachings like mortifying indwelling sin (John Owen) and so many others that in effect deny the completed work on the Cross are so dangerous to believers.
I tell women I share the gospel with each week that the gospel means grace – not the law. I am CONSTANTLY reminding them that there is nothing more required of them – most were raised Catholic and this IS Good News but also something they have a hard time believing. They simply are in a authoritarian, guilt ridden, church in power relgious system. Many have said it before and I still agree – SGM is more Catholic than anything else. It shares more similarities with the Catholic church than any other denomination – reformed, calvinisitic, charismatic or otherwise. Because of this you get a lot of “SGM guilt” like the ol’ Catholic guilt many suffer from. Deception at it’s best (or worst really)
I am burdened as well for those who are in bondage to this guilt, to the overwhelming feeling that their sanctification is their responsibility – or in some cases, that they have NO responsibility and hence no hope for change because maybe God won’t grant them repentance in some area – it’s all wacked if you ask me. SGM has twisted the sovereignty of God, man’s responsibility, and sanctification and produced some confused, overhwelmed, works-driven, law-burdened, joyless sheep in need of freedom. Isaiah 53..our only hope.
Oh my Brother’s how sad so many try to find the weeds in the field’s so soon and pull them out before their time.
Most of the fanatical legalistic terrorist in the church and against the church’s are so deceived. If you remember even the elect in the church in the end will be deceived.
Mark 13:22
For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
But, Who am I to police and place eternal damnation on any man’s ministry or life?
We are to run from any type ministry.
I guess St. Peters Sword has been drawn out again?
After the stoning took place, Didn’t Paul have his transformation and a second chance with Jesus on the road to Damascus? SO Jesus wasn’t finished with him before mankind judged him?
I believe the chaff is to be removed and burned in the end by “Our Lord” not those in this world and yes many who say Lord Lord, Jesus will never have known them.
Luke 3:17
Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff He will burn with fire unquenchable.
Yet we see those who forsake their first love in Christ, have sinful veils and the Holy Spirit is no longer in their life.
The Loveless Church
Rev 2:
2 “I know your works, your labor, your patience, and that you cannot bear those who are evil. And you have tested those who say they are apostles and are not, and have found them liars; 3 and you have persevered and have patience, and have labored for My name’s sake and have not become weary. 4 Nevertheless I have this against you, that you have left your first love. 5 Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place—unless you repent
They now justify hatred and anger as their minute by minute meal so they assume their grasping religious values are now justified because “their own”, work is on the prowl as a group with the rejected spirits on this earth.
It is sad that those attacking ministries do not heed the warning of God our Father and the Words of Christ Jesus. It seems that so many come to a plateau in their Spiritual growth and feel they have arrived and justify them selves, but the Word of God condemns their actions. For me it is a day by day submission and walk in my relationship with Jesus.
I say “Many” get a glimpse of the Kingdom, but then obeying the their own senses and other men’s observances and turning from “The Way” unto a legalistic army that is so far from Gods grace join in to anguish Gods own army, with their own crowd of cheers as they tear down God’s ministries in this world, “blinded by their own self gratification and their blind leaders”, they only search out the innocent and those who by word of mouth from others, attack till death if possible.
Like the clan felt justified killing a man if he had different color skin for many years.
I am so glad that when Jesus was challenged by a crowd to decide on the immediate arrest of the prostitute to condemn her or not, He said, ” you who have no sin cast the first stone”.
If these ones who are attacking SGM and others have such blessed wisdom and balance in their own families and life, then use it become involved leaders in the Kingdom and not followers to persecute , Get involved in any ministry outside of your comfort zone with the Leading of the Holy Spirit of course.
I remember i was approached by a Lady in my church saying, “why do i waste my time going into the prisons teaching Gods word to the convict’s, They had their chance on the streets !” i was so shocked, but also i know the power of hatred and anger as i was guilty of this growing up in my teen’s.
Jesus said, “my people hear my voice”, yet millions only hear mankind’s voice and remember Jesus said he trusted no man.
I believe these anti-Christian speculators have such worldly wisdom that even God chuckles at their remarks yet He says to them “beware because every single word we speak or insult others by raca, we will be accountable for in the end.
Matthew 5:22
But I say (Jesus the Creator and Judge} say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in “danger of the Eternal judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of Eternal hell fire.”"”"
I say if? you have the Holy Spirit led Life, then it is much more a blessing to go out into the work fields and bring in the harvest with those who need salvation now, because truly the fields are ripe and in need for workers as so many physically die daily without salvation in their life.
We should feel guilty that we can not approaching those who are diminishing daily from salvation’s door’s into Eternal hell.
Busy hands and minds will not let a heart grow heavy,
Frustration is not having anyone to blame but yourself.
Sometimes problems are more elusive than solutions.
I pray that the attacks stop and Gods Grace is sufficient in the lives of us all.
But we forgive those who are misled praying your return to Gods Grace and salvation, open the word saturate your mind and heart with the Living Words of God that when spoken, “Let there be light” also with the same intensity said, “Forgive them, they do not know what they have done!”
Emanuel,
Chaplain Tom
Prison Chaplain
Los Angeles, Ca.
Actually, I completely disagree. Identifying a cult is not done by examining their religious beliefs, rather it is done by analyzing their methodologies, practices, and tactics. I spend 20+ years in the group and was connected to “the top” of the authority pyramid structure. You can read why I think it is a cult here: http://www.sgmsurvivors.com/?p=2203&cp=4
Wow, this is a very old thread. At one time I agreed with the arugment. I never wanted to call SGM a cult. A few years later I am feeling quite differently after hearing so many more stores, especially yours, Kerrin. There are too many cult-like tendencies. The love that is to represent a Christian group seems absent from what I have seen. There is too much done out of fear rather than faith. It is too man-controlled. The Holy Spirit is not given His rightful place. SGM seems less and less like a group full of people who know Jesus Christ and more like a place where people know doctrine, a corporation rather than a church.
Cult or no cult………you be the judge
Here’s a link to a site where you can put SGM (or any church) to the test.
…and from Dictionary.com
cult
[kuhlt] Show IPA
–noun
1.
a particular system of religious worship, especially with reference to its rites and ceremonies.
2.
an instance of great veneration of a person, ideal, or thing,especially as manifested by a body of admirers: the physical fitness cult.
3.
the object of such devotion.
4.
a group or sect bound together by veneration of the same thing, person, ideal, etc.
5.
Sociology . a group having a sacred ideology and a set of rites centering around their sacred symbols.
6.
a religion or sect considered to be false, unorthodox, or extremist, with members often living outside of conventionalsociety under the direction of a charismatic leader.
7.
the members of such a religion or sect.
8.
any system for treating human sickness that originated by aperson usually claiming to have sole insight into the nature of disease, and that employs methods regarded as unorthodoxor unscientific.
I’m thinking ……….. yes it’s a cult
N.S.L.B.
Quizzler, oh my goodness. I have always stood that SGM is NOT a cult. Cult like, yes. Cult? No. I still am not going to say it is. But I had to stop reading that test after the 30th question because SGM CLEARLY fit all but 2 of those questions and I was too upset to keep reading. This is getting kinda frightening.
And, Stunned, I still just cannot say the sentence…even thought the attributes are there.
Really, it all starts off with —who is truly being worshipped?
I go back to PK’s posting on polity and his quote:
“SGM’s espousing ’1st among equals’ (‘primus inter pares’) is a term created by and for the Roman Empire — the Emperors way of reducing the appearance of dictatorship, and it is a term that belongs nowhere in the church.”
A great mocking has occurred, as SGM espouses Grace, Sovereignty, Holiness, Humility–
For they (consciously or not) have sought to remove the Lordship of Jesus Christ in the redeemed hearts of the Believers by requiring their parishoners to look to SGM pastor ‘standing in the very stead of God’. Jesus said said His ‘sheep’ will know, and hear HIS Voice and follow HIM.
They have divorced the Holy Spirit —where once there was greater covenant relationship with Him –now He has been relegated to a back seat behind the ‘standing in the very stead of God’ SGM pastors. Jesus said He was sending the Holy Spirit in His place—so He could be omnipotent and omnipresent for every Believer.
SGM chips away the fullness of redemptive LIFE by seeking to be the eyes, ears, mind, and heart of the Believer—thus creating the culture of Stepfordites we see in many of the ‘Family of churches’. Critical thinking and spiritual discernment diminish as the years go by—replaced by alleigance to the SGM idol
SGM seeks to fix parishoner eyes on sin sin sin — admonishing parishoners to prioritize “killing sin”. Jesus said “Seek ye FIRST the Kingdom of God, and His Righteousness”
(Matt 6:33)
If we are entering a time on the earth, when we actually see the spirit of deception operating at all levels (in the days when “Even the elect will be deceived”), we as Believers must cry out to God and Him alone to open our eyes and hear His Voice and know HIS leading above ALL others. God sent His Son as exact representation of Himself–Jesus said IAM THE Way, the Truth, and the Life. Not an institution made of polity edicts, but Jesus, the Messiah, the Risen Savior Redeemer (John 10:14-15 “IAM the good shepherd; I know My sheep and My sheep know Me; just as the Father knows Me and I know the Father–and I lay down My life for the sheep.”)
Waters, applause, applause! Well said!
Awesome post Waters!!
I used to not want to call SGM a cult….I didn’t want to admit that my friends and I were the type who could be duped. But the truth is, SGM IS a Cult. I’ve come to peace with that…for what it’s worth.
It is hard to take that final step in calling SGM a true cult. I have done that. Jim has said in the past that we shouldn’t paint the whole picture with a broad stroke (or something to that effect). There must be churches affilliated with SGM who are not cults. Where are they? Who are they? However, the latest stories we’ve read here and at survivors seem to suggest that the SGM team has produced cultish churches, at least in some areas of the nation (world?). Is there anywhere in SGMingdom where the leaven has not taken over?