Welcome!  I appreciate your honesty, curiosity and concerns about the site.  It is rare that one communicates this even semi-politely.  Most just drop bombs and leave, so thank you for not doing that.

My first response was very similar to yours (almost word for word) when I stumbled upon these sites in the past year.  As I read more, took people at their word and did some digging (as the NT commands me to do), I began to see many disturbing patterns confirmed, realized I wasn’t crazy, and took a unique approach; I decided to remain in SGM and cultivate the much-needed seeds of change.  I also try to dispel any SGM-bashing for the sake of bashing.  In fact, there will come a day when I feel I have addressed the core issues and concerns I have, and at that time I will stop re-hashing topics and simply respond to comments.

There are good folks here who don’t want to see SGM crash and burn… they simply want the Gospel to shine its line in its purest form on SGM.

Again, welcome, God bless your missions work, and I look forward to more posts.

…pk

I bet you are used to being in a church like this, too.  But SGM is, by their own admittance, very different.

So, (honest question, I have no personal investment in SGM–this is pure curiosity) do you find it weird to be in a church that will never support your ministry financially, or have you report to the body what God has been doing in and through you?  (or, if they do, they will be acting outside the guidelines of SGM to do so?)  Or that you will hear the leadership warn students from being involved in ministries like the one in which you serve? Or that you may be the only missionaries in the congregation? Thanks for considering this, I truly would like to hear your opinion.

Anway, welcome to the site, I am sure you will add much to the discussion!  This is the most amazing place:  honesty and grace abound.

I would be surprised if newtosgm doesn’t find difficulties in juggling church activities with his para-church ministry.  The way leaders use to preach about para-church organizations almost made it seem like a sin to be a part of it.  Yet, if the ministry should come from the local church, as they say, why doesn’t it?  Good question to ponder.

Jim,

Where have you been?  Hope everything is okay. Hi to Carole!

I understand in the blog world that people read one post and comment.

We are a bit of a different animal, and we’ve done our best not only to clearly state our motives, but have also made it very easy for first time visitors to learn who we are, and why we exist.

newtosgm-welcome!

We’re glad you’re here.

Thanks for your compliment. 

It was my obervation that NewtoSGM was a gentleman (assuming this person is a man).  He posted questions asking etc. vs. some of the “bulls in a china shop” drive by posts we have unfortunately seen from other SGM people. 

I do hope he returns and posts and dialogs with us. 

That is a good question about his being in a parachurch ministry.  From the posts I have read especially on the SGM Survivor blog, SGM doesn’t seem to support para church groups or at least that is what a number of posters have indicated.  I would think it might be hard to be in a SGM church in that situation. 

You are such a gentleman.  Thanks from us all for the gentle defense.  I wonder if NewtoSGM understands how little support he will get from his church with his para-church activities, unless he is part of one of the “exceptions”.  One can only hope!:)

Thanks for understanding and for doing some reading on the purpose of this blog and the other one.  After you have better understanding, please feel free to come back and post.  We welcome your comments and discussion. 

Realize that people in SGM typically don’t experience what many of us have shared here until they start questioning things.  The leadership can appear the way you see them and only show their more “ugly” side when one starts to question or disagree. 

As one person put it, SGM seems to have a number of people that follow the Catholic model of “our leaders have spoken” mentality (kind of like what the Pope says goes unquestioned).  I am sure they both attract this type of person as well as ingrain it in others.  This mentality is where they don’t want to be questioned; if the leadership says something then it must be followed. 

Welcome to the blog and I am looking forward to seeing  your posts and questions.

welcome-I’d second Steve’s response.  You might want to read a little more about us-then maybe you’d understand the “harshness” in a different light.  
Peace-MM

PS-Which para church ministry do you currently serve?

I suggest you click on “About Us” that is on the top of all their web pages.  That might answer a lot of your questions.  You also might look at some of the other tabs before making other comments. 

Though I am sure you meant well, a lot of people here on this site have experienced hurt at the hands of SGM. It would be good if you read about some of this on this blog before posting remarks critical of this blog.  This might also answer your question about going to someone in private first; most say that hasn’t done any good or they get the SGM leadership “spotlighting.” 

You might also want to look at another blog:

http://www.sgmsurvivors.com

As a full-time missionary with a well-known para-church organization, I must be clear when I say that Matthew 28:18-20 cannot be holistically carried out in a non-church context. I know this from experience. However I cannot be unclear on the fact that God has blessed our ministry efforts with the para-church organization. The church, though, is not part of the equation when entering the harvest. And I believe that because of this we are hindered from being effective in many ways. 

Another concern is that I am currently building ministries that are not churches, and are ultimately not contexts by which all of scripture can be applied. 

These are thoughts that I am trying to better understand in light of Scripture. 

Another thought I would like to share, if I may be so bold, is to point out the harshness shown towards Dave Harvey on this blog. My goodness. I’m curious if anybody here has actually approached Dave to share with him your concerns, which are valid and need to be voiced. I just think we could go about it a better way.

One question I have is why did this blog ever begin? I think if it is to help us better understand missiology then let me be the first to thank you for serving. But if it is just to talk harshly about SGM and Dave Harvey’s thoughts then it seems a bit bias and immature. 

Any response that would be beneficial would be greatly appreciated. Thank you for reading and please pray for me as I seek to better understand How Jesus would have my family carry out the Great Commission.

Good thoughts and comments, as always.

Stunned and musicman:

The disadvantage to the net is my jumping to conclusions based on text.  My fault, and no worries on this end, either!

…pk

PK, that is so true, and it makes me want to cry.

I would not want to be the “leadership team” on judgment day…that’s all I have to say about that.

I’m convinced after today, yet again, that redefining everything is key to SGM’s “success”. I asked a friend of mine today who attends the SGM church I used to go to after she threw out a few SGM phrases (speak truth into their lives, “gospel focused” and “Cross centered” to be exact)

In my frustration I point blank asked her: Do you actually KNOW what those phrases mean? Because you hear them thrown around alot since SMG adopted the church, and I for one never had them properly defined. It seems everyone has their own definition of what it means to be “speaking truth into one another’s lives”. And do we truly realize the implications of everyone having their own interpretation of how that works? Sure, there is biblical support for such a practice, but in the context of one being fully submitted to Christ first. Submit to one another, IN THE FEAR OF THE LORD. Again, not what SGM says, but what they DO NOT SAY.

She was taken aback at first, and I pressed on asking what would “speaking truth” look like? And what is it not? And what then is the role of the Holy Spirit if the church speaks truth? And if we are “Cross Centered” then that would, in my estimation, imply we are pointing people to Christ, not the church, for their needs. And I said that if the church I attended was truly Cross Centered, how in the world did I attend for three years and miss Jesus Christ completely and end up a Pharisee?? She could not answer that of course.

It’s time to start speaking up more than just on blogs in relatively anonymity. People need to hear the hard questions asked…if we don’t ask them, who will? I think just voicing out loud what the Holy Spirit is undoubtedly speaking to them (or has in the past anyway) would be glorifying to God. REALLY speaking the truth…

funny now that I think of it – you can speak the truth, but not when it’s the truth. I spoke the truth today, it was not received. I asked her if she didn’t receive truth from someone in care group, what would their response be? Would they label her as rebellious and in sin, with a hard heart? Just kept asking questions, trying to make her think…

a reasonable doubt is all it takes…

she’s questioning, but also is being deceived at the same time, that much is clear.

PK-No worries-I wasn’t offended or trying to contradict your quotes-just trying to voice my concerns over Dave’s experience to be leading and setting doctrine for the 20,000 plus folks who look to him for their doctrine.

How, inquiring minds may want to know, do I know this with such certainty that I would bet the house?

Because *I* attended CF’s very first meeting. We (DH and I) are considered to be their very first local members.

Yes, and they still took a big theological dump on us, but I digress.

That was in October of 1984. Dave Harvey was a member of the church in Indianna, PA.

He came to the Philadelphia church in, I believe, 1986 and first served as a care group leader. (although they were called home groups at the time. He lived in Conshohocken, PA and led a care group in his home and the care group was later moved to another couple’s home in Conshocoken.

He was rather quickly elevated to Jr. (Unmarried people’s) pastor. (circa 1986-87.)

There was a big hullabaloo in which the senior pastor, Bill Patton resigned as senior pastor and Dave Harvey was elevated to the position of senior pastor (I always wondered what happened to Alan Redrup who was one of the planting pastors,) but, again, I digress.

About the time he became senior pastor, he started going to the cemetary…I mean Seminary for some real eddycation.

As I told musicman, I am just basing this on what Dave has stated in his Missiology booklet.  On page 4 implies -at least he CLAIMS- he was part of the church plant.  I appreciate everyone, like you Stunned, for shedding more light on it.  Please don’t take my citations from Missiology as support for Dave’s theological claims, I am citing them only because they WILL be cited -quite rabidly so- by those who support Dave.  I didn’t want to arbitrarily disagree with Dave’s testimony as it might be deemed a personal attack on him, and that is simply not the function and purposes of my comments here.  That’s the only reason I cite Dave’s comments.

Whenever Dave arrived onto the scene, it doesn’t change what I believe are serious lapses in the justification of erroneous conclusions in Missiology and Polity.

…pk

NO.  NO.  NO, Dave was NOT part of the church plant of Cov. Fel.  In 1984 Cov Fel was started by 12 adults and their children, who came up from the church around DC.  I believe the month was November.  The pastor was Bill Patton.  Here are the 12 adults.  I will not name each of their children, but I know the children all well.

1. Fred- single man at the time- no kids at that time- later married a sweet woman and had children- not at Cov Fel any more or wasn’t last I checked- I think they moved
2. Cindy- single woman- no kids at that time- returned to DC area (I’m 95% sure)
3. Martin – single guy at the time (his wedding was fun!)- he often led worship- really skilled musician- moved back to DC area after marrying a quality woman
4. Tall, attractive, thin, brunette single woman- no children at the time- she moved as well
5. Linda – 4 kids
6. Alan – Linda’s husband-Alan went on to become the second pastor of the church- he is a GREAT guy in many ways- when Bill Patton stepped down from senior pastor, Alan took over for a while, then DH was made SP- Alan stepped down from pastoral ministry in either the late 90′s or very early 00′s-for me it was a sad day for the church when Alan stepped down- I’ll be hanging them in a few days and really looking forward to it
7. Bob – church office started and ran in his office for quite a while
8. Val - Bob’s wife- they also had the first of a gajillion home groups and prayer cells in their home in 1984- incredibly hospitable, generous and huge servants- I don’t envision a day when I don’t love them deeply- they had one child with them at the time
9. Chuck- father of one daughter at that time
10, Sharon- Chuck’s wife- another ditto on never being able to envision a day I don’t love them and their kids
11. Bill Patton- father of 3 at that time, started the church as the pastor- now in business and no longer in full time ministry
12. Sue- Bill’s wife

I came at the one year mark.  Volunteered at the church office weekly beginning at the beginning of 1986 when it was in Bob’s office.  At that time the staff was Bill, Alan and Cindy.  Dave was not on staff at that time but was by 1987, possibly 1986.