I receive google alerts when SG in mentioned on a blog. There’s been quite a few times when I visited a blog, and have seen a warning by you, inviting the readers to take a look at us and survivors. Thank you so much for your boldness in this regard, and for drawing attention to us and to SGM Survivors!

I didn’t respond to this comment since I was so busy writing about another topic here.  Thanks for noticing and I am glad I can do my part.  Though I have a small blog commenting on “Kissing Dating Goodbye”/Courtship I am don’t have or even feel called to set up a blog like you have.  I appreciate all your efforts, your wife’s and Kris and Guy’s efforts. 

I am guessing that what we are sharing here may be like what happened with Gothard and his orgainization.  People started slow and eventually more and more people listened and the truth came out about that man and his ministry.  Now most people have woken up to what went on there with Gothard.  My guess is that will eventually happen with SGM if they don’t wake up and seek God to where they should change.  This may be a warning and possibly final warning to them.  Who knows what God may choose to do with this situation. 

If more people publicize the existence of these blogs, more and more people will be come aware of what is going on there.  The either exodus or the leadership will be forced to change. 

Thanks again for all your hard work and putting yourself out there on this.  I am glad to advertise this blog when and where I can.

However…who really gives a flying fig newton about that?  Would Jesus condemn a kid with a nose ring, or the one that judges the kid?

I just get sad over the legacy of legalism:  Kids are brought up as Stepford kids (great picture) and then they reject any other kid, believer or non-believer, who doesn’t meet the mold, and their parents do the same thing–not only do the same thing, but demand that their kids do the same thing.

I suspect a bunch of people are going to be REALLY SHOCKED in the new heavens and earth–gonna be some serious WEIRD looking people there.  Like us.

…I wouldn’t pressure pk…

(I was just lovingly harassing him…)

AMEN!  AMEN!  AMEN!  I once heard someone describe it this way.  (Something like this at least.)  You walk along and see a door.  Over it is written, “Who so ever may come.  He is not willing that any should perish but all come to knowledge and repentance.”  You walk through the door, then turn around and see written above it on the other side, “Those chosen from the beginning of time.”   That makes this simple minded person happy. 

“My IQ is a couple of standard deviations from the norm (you can make your own assumptions about the direction”
DB, I love you!!!!! You make me laugh so much some times.

Thanks for clarifying this.  I was under the impression you were misintreting what I was saying. 

I do see the contradiction you are talking about with over control of their children.  A while back I mad a blog entry about that on my blog:

“Sovereign Grace” & Courtship: A Contradiction?

http://ikdg.wordpress.com/2008.....radiction/

One illustration I might make to show my point on holding parents resposible for their children coming to Christ goes back to my elementary school days.  I was in a science class and the teacher showed us that the natural speed of a weight on a string depended on the length of the string and not how much weight the string was supporting.  He would then say he was baffled when he aske students to explain how to correct the pendulum of a clock that was moving too fast or slow.  Some of the students would say to increase/decrease the weight when they had just learned that weight was the determining factor. 

SGM appears to do soemthing similar.  They say that salvation depends on God’s election then blames parents for their children not coming to Christ.  They are using faulty logic.  Either one or the other or the other is wrong. 

Well I am sure I have rattled long enough on this.    Off to watch the debate.

In your last comment, at the end of your first paragraph, you said:

Let me try and explain this again.

Whoa.  Nobody is trying to derail your point whatsoever.  We know that you were establishing this:

My point was a contradiction between what SGM says they believe about predestination and “election” and their expecting all of their children to become believers and who is to blame if some of these children choose to follow Christ.

I and others have simply discovered that within this the realm, your insight can shed light on many other areas, as well.  That’s all.  Nobody is trying to redefine what you said.

If I have misread you and there’s a communication gap that isn’t resolved via writing as opposed to verbal conversation, my apologies.

…pk

My point was a contradiction between what SGM says they believe about predestination and “election” and their expecting all of their children to become believers and who is to blame if some of these children choose to follow Christ. 

According to what SGM says they believe about Calvinism, if a child decides to not follow Christ then the child is not one of the “elect” or hasn’t been “elected” at this time.  That should what one should logically conclude if they say they believe in Calvinism. 

From what I hear, SGM is holding parents accountable (including having a pastor step down) for their adult children not becoming believers.  This is a contradiction of what SGM says they believe about predestination and election.  If a child decides to not follow Christ, shouldn’t someone who believes in Calvinism just accept that this child is not part of God’s “elect” or that this child’s time of “election” hasn’t occurred?

Anyway, well-said!

…pk

I wouldn’t judge kids for piercings or tats anymore than I’d pressure pk into changing his avi as odd as it looks to me, it speaks someone Else’s language.

And I do live in my paradox. My IQ is a couple of standard deviations from the norm (you can make your own assumptions about the direction, ) but I know I’m neither wise nor smart enough to grasp these things, so I trust my lord and refrain from taking my opinion too seriously.

But the micromanaging children, I honestly do not understand.

First, we all get free will. It must be taken into consideration; predestination or not. It is important enough to God for Him to have allowed all manner of heartache and injustice. What makes people think children are any different. Everyone has free will.

Provide boundaries, yes, discipline, yes, dedicate, yes.

But the level of hand’s on (and by that, It usually translates into spanking, parenting is absurd. I get the sense that people honestly believe they are going to create the first generation of perfect Stepford kids.

So, they have this odd paradox (again, that word,) in which they believe in indwelling sin; they dwell on sin and sinfulness to the degree it is no longer healthy, yet, paradoxically, they think *they* are the people that are going to get parenting right and produce a generation of kids that will make them (the dear leaders, that is,) worthy (ha!) of their leadership positions.

How arrogant can one be?

If you clear your cookies, it should.

…pk

Good recent post.  In my recent post I indicated that this is quite esoteric.  From what I see, you are basically saying what I said about this. 

As you indicated, God’s ways are much higher than ours.  It is good if we realize this.

exhibit A (Jim):

PK-

Your ever evolving gravatar is becomes more creepy with each edition.

and exhibit B (Ellie):

I liked your second knight pic the best.

I have changed my ever-evolving gravatar once again… it should show up after awhile.

lol

…pk

I suppose it would also extend to and inform their reaction, which I have seen modelled twice this very week, of rejecting kids who don’t fit the mold:  long hair/earrings/tats on guys, for example.

Perhaps DB’s paradox is where we need to live:  we try to split  the truths of scripture: 

–God calls a people to himself.  Jesus exults in the fact he will never lose the ones his father has given him.  God foreknew and predestined his people.

–if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart God raised him from the dead, you shall be saved.  Whosoever believes in him shall never perish.

–be ready at all times to share the hope within you. Go into all the world…

–if you are ashamed of me, I will be ashamed of you before the Father.

–the potter from Romans 9

We are only able to face one side of the paradox at a time, since we are caught in humanity/time/a pea-sized intellect.  We also like to be right about stuff. 

What if the truth is so great we cannot wrap our heads around it, a royal marriage of the doctrines we bicker over, resulting in a Bride that can not be lost?

He calls/we choose.
 

Thanks for your compliment. 

Just realize that I was referring to a person coming to Christ and what Calvinism teaches about this vs. bringing up children that are reasonably behaved. 

I do believe the qualification that scripture lays out for elders is that an elders children (not adult childrent) should be well behaved.  I have seen children in “Christian” families be quite unruly and then seen non-Christian families where the children were raised to be well behaved.  Scripture says a man isn’t qualified to be an elder if his children are unruly.  I am not aware of a scripture that indicates they have to come to Christ. 

As we both know, there is big difference between children being well behaved and a child or adult coming to Christ. 

My point is that if you are going to say you believe in Calvinism then be willing to accept that God in essence reprobates some people by not selecting them for salvation.  In other words, according to Calvinism God doesn’t give certain what they need to come to Christ and thus it is impossible for these “non-elect” to receive salvation.  If one wants to teach “election” of some being willing to accept this darker side.  This could mean that some of your family members God in essence has allowed to become reprobates. 

If you say you believe in Calvinism just be willing to accept what some call the “darker” side that besides God “electing” some to salvation while those that aren’t elected are “reprobated.”

Rather than disqualifying someone to be an elder since one their children hasn’t come to Christ shouldn’t they just accept that maybe this child isn’t one of God’s “elect” or the time of “election” hasn’t occurred yet. This would be more in line with what they say they believe.

It is quite a contradiction how they can call some leaders “apostles” when these men haven’t seen Christ.  I believe that SGM uses some type of wording to where they distinguish between an SGM apostle and an Apostle that has seen Christ. 

…pk

Your ever evolving gravatar is becoming more creepy with each edition.

If SGM teaches this type of belief then it would make no sense to hold the parents accountable for their children not coming to Christ when they teach that it is only God who decides their children’s salvation and man’s effort makes no difference.  Thus there is quite a contradiction between what SGM says they believe on this issue and some of their actions such as this.

Interesteing how this law has unflinchingly and uncompromisingly been laid down on an interpretation of the scriptures, yet when it comes to the qualifications of an “apostle” to have seen the risen Christ, we at SGM somehow hushedly trim that out of the bible.

Good comments!

…pk