We need a Sabbatical, even if it’s brief, from our discussion on Polity.
But don’t get too comfortable in that hammock.
Today I’d like to re-post a comment that frequent and well-versed commenter Reformed Teacher submitted in the POLITY Episode 3 comments. It’s worthy of a serious gander, and while reading it, ask yourself these questions (and I’m sure many will crop up on their own):
Do the gates of heaven swing open any wider for the Arminian or the Calvinist? Is it possible to be a Calminian? Should one debate this topic at all in the church? What is your background or stand in this area? How do you believe the sovereignty of God plays out in the events of history and man’s salvation? Does debating this strengthen or divide the church? What is Hyper-Arminianism and what is Hyper-Calvinism?
In our discussion here, debate is acceptable if respect is modeled, and an assurance that we can “agree to disagree agreeably.”
If anything, just enjoy this excellent read by Reformed Teacher:
—————————————-
I grew up Mormon and didn’t really care if anyone else converted to LDS, since I knew I had my own planet and was good to go, as long as I found a LDS husband and wore my magic underwear. Well, that is before the Holy Spirit came blasting my heart to pieces in the winter of 1972 in Guantanamo Bay in the middle of a Christmas pageant at the chapel on base. I can testify that I had no interest at one point, then I found myself praying to Jesus to save me.
After my conversion to the truth, I was in wonderful Arminian churches, but I received the message that millions around me were headed to hell since they were not saved. (True)
Then I learned that I should share the Gospel with them. (True)
Then I sang a bunch of songs and heard sermons about how God would like me better and smile at me if I saved souls. (ah…not true–his smile on me comes courtesy of Jesus’ death and resurrection)
And then I listened to songs on the radio about how people in heaven would run up to me when I got there (since there is not time in eternity, do we all get ‘there’ simultaneously…that would be a fun post.), and weep and hug me around the neck and thank me for sharing the Gospel with them. (ah….scary not true, I suspect we are going to have competition for attention and tears and hugging at Heaven’s gate, and I am not talking about Peter).
Then I read, in the OT and the NT, that ‘those who God foreknew he also predestined’ to become his children. that before time he had ordered his kingdom, that he has always had a people.
And guess what? It freed me to take part in God’s plan, without the horrifying thoughts:
—God could somehow ‘like me better’ or be ‘mad with me’ depending on my evangelism efforts. This adds to or subtracts from the glorious imputed righteousness of Christ and challenges the efficacy of the finished work of Christ on my behalf and is blasphemy.
—”I have to make them pray the prayer! Right now!! It is all up to me!!! I have the power (extrapolating this thought to the nth degree) to send people to hell, since if I don’t get them praying that magic prayer, they will not be saved.” (right…I am God. I have to make this happen! It all depends on ME, ME, ME! Funny, people squirm over election, since they think it implies God sends people to hell, yet they tell each other that THEY are sending people to hell if they don’t share the Gospel with them in a persuasive way. Is this circular reasoning?)
—I must work harder, because God is waiting for people to work. He is sitting like the zitty pudgy girl at the prom, along the edge, looking anxiously around the room hoping, against hope, that SOMEONE will ask her/Him to dance. (ah…read Job. Become terrified at his magnificence and control.)
—”I can’t just love them, eat with them, cry with them, catch a movie with them, treat them with dignity, laugh with them. No, I need to keep my eye on the ball. I have to share the four spiritual laws with them! Every conversation needs to be about them going to hell if they get hit by a bus! That’s what Jesus would do.” (well, actually he did all the above, and frequently got called names like ‘glutton’ and ‘drunkard’ since he was hanging with the sinners. Or crying with them. Or speaking truth to them. Or feeding them.)
Since becoming convinced of the sovereignty of God in the matter of salvation, I have found myself free. Campus Crusade, back in the dark ages, used to have a slogan I loved even then: evangelism is sharing the Gospel in the power of the Holy Spirit, and leaving the results to God.
It is a liberating thing to ponder this: in response to the grace of God, a believer can confidently join the Savior in the work of gathering his people. He is not dependent on us to do so. He offers us the joy and the blessing of involvement, but if we opt out, we are the ones on the fringe, watching the dancing going on before us. We can take part, or we can watch from the sidelines, but He is a jealous Husband, and is going to bring the Bride home.
He is not willing that any of his people should perish, isn’t that amazing? It is not about me, it is about him–so we need not be afraid of involvement in missions or evangelism!
Just like Jesus, ‘who for the joy set before him endured the cross, despising its shame….’ and went about the work of the Father, knowing everything was in his control, we can look forward eagerly to the joy of sharing the gospel, knowing that God has already ordained the day of salvation for his beloved, confident that we cannot ‘mess up’ someone else’s salvation–we simply don’t have the power.
Question: for the ‘hypers’ on both ends: I understand why a hyper-Calvinist would not bother sharing the Gospel with sinners, since God will save them anyway. (Loser!) But why would a ‘hyper-arminian’ pray for someone’s salvation, if the Holy Spirit does not need to call that person to salvation? And if God does something (i.e., calls someone to salvation in response to the prayer of a believer), can He fail in his task? Which leads us to the i ching of questions: can God make a rock so big he could not move it?
…ah, it is late. Time for bed, obviously.
ps–It is time to plant pansies, my favorite flowers. But I really love Spring–all those TULIPS are simply amazing!
September 23rd, 2008 at 9:45 am
I missed that comment..What a wonderful question to bring our minds (at least mine) to the focus I have clung to for so long. I too, after coming to our Jesus, “grew up spiritually” in the Armenian camp. Then, was exposed to the CalvIn platoon. Thus, my extrapolation of what is important to me. THE BLOOD SAVING DEATH AND REDEMPTIIVE RESURRECTION OF CHRIST!!!. I came to determine that neither camp mattered to me. My primary focus (though failed at many times) is to daily not only draw closer to HIM, but to get to that place in HIM that I can hide and rest. Do my actions daily glorify HIM??? Do others know HIM, by my love and unconditional acceptance of them, right where they are? Is relationship with someone (so I can share HIS love with them) more important than being right all the time and proving it to them? Do I daily inspect my eyes for that BEAM before I question the tiny speck in theirs? Do I die daily to self, rather than “kill” someone else with an unkind, painful action or word?
Do I do my best to live a life in HIM, so that the witness of my trust in and love for HIM serves as an evangelical tool? YES, Reformed Teacher, what freedom comes with knowing that HE doesn’t need my help in “saving” the world, I just need to love those HE loves, and bear ALL with them through their lives, healing and restoration, all the time remembering HE provided a way for others to do that for and with me through HIS act of love for us all. What I do feel compelled to do is to stand in the gap for those that HE brings before me until they are able to stand on their own. What an evangelistic tool HE has provided us…..LOVE !!!! If I can hold onto Romans 12: 9-21, then HE keeps me focused on what HE desires me to be so that HE may be glorified and lifted up in my life……and as HE becomes stronger, then all those HE brings onto my path hopefully will feel the love of CHRIST and desire to experience that love and sweet fellowship with HIM.
I don’t care about the “Armenian & Calvin” theologies. Aren’t we supposed to live daily for HIM, doing the best we are capable of whether we can “loose ” that gift of salvation or not? I don’t care about who is “predestined” as much as I care about so desperately being at HIS feet, asking HIM to make me more like HIM; knowing when I fail, that through that failure, HE comes evermore alive in my life as I allow HIM to correct, mold and change me. That is the joy of my salvation, not only knowing, but seeing that in my weekness (sin and failure), He becomes strong, and I am that much closer to the inner sanctum of being bathed in HIS presence.
MiMi
September 23rd, 2008 at 9:53 am
Outstanding comment, Mimi… keep pursuing your Creator and Savior.
…pk
September 23rd, 2008 at 2:23 pm
The problem is the truth looks like a paradox to us and we split into two camps.
The reality is we can’t comprehend reality.
Sort of like the Trinity, you just muddle along in faith.
This is a non-issue to me until some hyper on either side makes a pain of themselves, then it’s an issue.
To be honest, my theology is more on the level of Calvin and Hobbs.
September 23rd, 2008 at 3:45 pm
I think I need to study more, and read a few more definitions on the above post. I really want to understand, but in my small understanding, this is what I think. Well when I was in SG I just learned basically that God chooses us. I did not know how to articulate that but when I had any questions I was looked down on, like “don’t question this truth,” So, that is how I treated others. And really and truly not knowing either apart. So……I guess along with wanted to slowly break down scriptures and definitions on the subject, I decided I would be devoted to prayer and try to be kind to everyone. In SG these are the issues that separate…WE HAVE SOUND DOCTRINE BIT, and BAT, so I hesitate. But for some reason I am always interested in learning…truth.
September 23rd, 2008 at 7:58 pm
Keep learning and reading, Charlie, and sift everything with the Word of God. I hate to say this, but most of my fellow saints in SGM simply accept doctrines at face value without growing in its richness by studying it. They repeat it because someone they respect told them this and that and so it MUST be true. This could be said of many, many churches within and without SGM; the party line is towed without digging deep. His word is truth. Those who worship God must worship Him in spirit and in Truth. You shall know the Truth, and the Truth shall set you free (indeed). Your pursuit of Truth is a Good Thing, Charlie!
…pk
September 23rd, 2008 at 11:20 pm
Good grief, how mortifying. I open sgmrefuge to receive some more needed teaching from the able PK and Jim, and see this reprinted. Argh. Thank you for the compliment, but please promise that you will continue to teach us! What a blessing this has been, to read your hard work and the comments which follow.
DB–
Paradox. You are so right., what a perfect word choice. In class we sometimes talk about how man’s greatest thought/acheivement (Einstein? Pascal? Bach?) is still like a small child’s compared to Abba Father…yet he graciously invites us to ‘come and reason together.’
You are spot on about the Trinity, too. The eternity/time thing will also blow our fuse–the Godhead has been around forever? Simply living in fellowship? How much “time” did they spend planning the intricate legs of a praying mantis? Did they laugh over giraffes? Capybaras? Did they enjoy planning photosynthesis and hiding the Pythagoran Theorem inside the shape of a butterfly’s wing? Did they chuckle, knowing that we would one day name those gorgeous mycological creations of theirs, “Wolf-fart puffballs?” Did it delight the Trinity to plan that mushrooms would grow in delicate ‘fairy rings?’ Did they smile when they designed lady-bugs, thinking about the wonder that little children would take in those little creatures–rather like the delight we parents take wrapping the perfect Christmas gift for our small children?
Paradox: the God that ’spent’ millenia planning the delights of creation, for his pleasure and ours, came down here and, on his way to the cross, discovered them for himself.
Anyway, back on topic:
Remember that old song, “Trust and Obey?”
Trust and obey, (the marriage of arminian and calvinist views on evangelism)
For there is no other way,
To be happy in Jesus, (’who, for the joy set before him”)
But to trust, and obey.
September 24th, 2008 at 3:22 pm
I will comment more later on this thread but here is an entry from blog about the need to think. From what I saw, the culture in SGM didn’t want people that thought for themselves.
A Favorite Story About The Need to Think for Yourself
I am digressing a bit in this post to share a favorite story that I read not too long ago. It is about the need to think for yourself despite what a leader or someone in authority might tell you is true. It can apply to a number of things including courtship and dating but more importantly other spiritual areas.
Charles II Story:
From: “Reach Out for Life” by E. Lonnie Melaschenko Chapter 3
How many of us and how many times do we hear something taught and strive to believe it is true just because someone in a position of authority or who is well respected indicates it is true even if warning signals in our mind and heart go up that what was said isn’t true? Why do we sometimes put so much faith in what some “respected” leaders tell us?
Do we sometimes look to explain why the scale would still read 10 pounds when we know that there is no probable way it could? What teaching have you been “taught” that you may be doing something similar on?
Something to ponder.
September 25th, 2008 at 1:47 pm
Steve 240,
I love that story! It is so typical of what I once experienced. I would have been one of the guys who gave the “expected” answer, even though it would be wrong because I didn’t question the question! Thanks for sharing that.
September 25th, 2008 at 6:22 pm
Great story, Steve. At the beginning of that story I thought, “That’s ridiculous! What the heck was wrong with that scale? Somebody really needed to talk to that king and set him straight!”
After reading what sweet Canary wrote I thought, “No wonder I was never put in leadership at my SGM church.” But truthfully, Canary, there were so many other things I DID swallow that I wasn’t good with, but doubted myself, for, after all, isn’t the heart wicked above all things? So why the heck didn’t I say to myself, “So why is the leadership ‘hearing’ what is right and not me? Isn’t their heart as wicked and deceptive as mine?” Sheesh was I sucked in. I’d stand up and fight a king (you really gotta pity my professors, I just don’t let stupid or faulty reasoning pass unchallenged), but I sucked certain things from SGM right up! Doh!
September 25th, 2008 at 7:13 pm
Stunned,
It still baffles me how I could think strongly about something, then be totally reversed in my opinion by a leader who disagreed. We aren’t talking doctrine, more like a personal decision or idea. I was asked a question by a leader once about a friend of mine. I knew the answer right away and responded confindently. The leader, not knowing my friend as well as I, said I was wrong, giving a very negative, untrue assessment of my friend instead. I knew this leader was wrong, but I accepted his opinion because he was my “authority”.
That would never happen today. I can’t believe I gave up my will so completely to people who, in the end, didn’t love me, only my membership support. Never again. We are free in Christ!
I love that comment about your not letting stupid or faulty reasoning pass unchallenged with a Professor. I’ll bet they don’t see you coming!
September 25th, 2008 at 11:23 pm
Canary
I am glad you and Stunned enjoyed the story. I have been guilty of wanting to believe something was true just because someone in authority like that said something. I am sure we all have especially if we were part of SGM culture that doesn’t like questioning etc.
It did take a smart king to ask that question and realize that it was in the king’s best interest to have men that would tell him the truth and not what he wanted to hear. Only allowing people to tell you what you want to hear vs. the truth a wise man will realize can set you up for catastrophes.
Stunned
It is something how they teach the heart is sick and that the leaders are imperfect but then don’t want you to question them. It is another one of SGM’s contradictions. They say one thing but their actions show they truly believe something else.
September 26th, 2008 at 1:31 am
Steve,
This is a thank you note….
The Charles II story is a classic! Thank you for posting that here.
I admire you for not joining into a tulip debate here. It’s seems that we’ve agreed to disagree agreeably. I thought that either you or I might toss a missive, the other would respond, and then we’d both remember that we’ve danced around this tree before, and know that we believe what we believe. When I saw PK’s post, I thought of you first. I’m so glad that we both avoided the discussion.
I respect you.
I receive google alerts when SG in mentioned on a blog. There’s been quite a few times when I visited a blog, and have seen a warning by you, inviting the readers to take a look at us and survivors. Thank you so much for your boldness in this regard, and for drawing attention to us and to SGM Survivors!
I’m thinking that there’s a “well done” waiting for you in the (hopefully) distant future.
You’re a good man, Steve, and a highly valued participant here. Again, thank you for being a “part of the solution” (had to throw in some sgm-speak)
Grace and Peace,
Jim
September 26th, 2008 at 3:31 am
Jim,
FYI (as if you didn’t already know haha) “part of the solution” is actually a Gothardism adopted by SGM.
September 26th, 2008 at 10:08 am
Jim:
I admire you for not joining into a tulip debate here. It’s seems that we’ve agreed to disagree agreeably. I thought that either you or I might toss a missive, the other would respond, and then we’d both remember that we’ve danced around this tree before, and know that we believe what we believe. When I saw PK’s post, I thought of you first. I’m so glad that we both avoided the discussion.
I respect you.
Jim
Thanks for your comment. I am glad that you enjoyed the Charles II Story.
To be honest I have been busy this week haven’t had time to come up with much on this topic. I do think that it is best that the two of us agree to disagree on this. I don’t see either of us changing our beliefs about this issue. I do get value from hearing and discussing others’ viewpoints on this issue.
I will be one to admit that Calvinism/Arminianism/predestination is an esoteric topic. I don’t believe the scriptures are fully clear on this and I can see how one can after scripture study have different beliefs than mine. This isn’t something that is as clear cut as some people on both sides of the spectrum make it.
When I questioned Calvinism at SGM (called PDI at the time) when it was first being introduced, I was made to felt like a heretic and it wasn’t mentioned that there might be another acceptable belief. Someone else shared that when they were in SGM they went through the NT and listed scriptures that supported Calvinism and those that supported Arminianism. She came up with a pretty equal list. When she shared this with her care group leader, it wasn’t well received. I also would add that SGM moved towards Calvinism without being real open and honest about their doing this.
I do question when I see people being taught one way or the other without doing some study of their own and taking into account the whole bible. It shocks me when the leader of SGM gets up and quotes only one scripture to support his view of predestination. As I have said before, at a seminary he would have received an “F” for his exegesis.
I have a lot more respect with someone who had done their own study on this vs. someone that believes either way just because their leaders say it is true. I also don’t think a lot of people out there really understand including those in SGM what Calvinism teaches.
It is quite clear that SGM have moved away from having a evangelistic/missions orientation in the last few 15 years or so. During that same time period they moved towards Calvinism/predestination. I am sure the two are related. As you have pointed out that the two don’t always go hand in hand but in this case they sure seeemed to. That is I am concluding that the leadership’s belief in Calvinism producted their move away from missions and evangelism.
One item I will repeat that I know I have shared a few times on SGMSurvivors blog is SGM’s contradiction in what they say they believe and some of their actions. For example, you read about SGM leaders being held responsible for the actions of their adult children including these grown children not coming to Christ. Holding parents accountable for their children not coming to Christ is a direct contradiction to what Calvinism teaches.
My understanding of what SGM teaches on Calvinism/predestination is that God selects and gives an “irresistable grace” to some. Those that God gives this “irresistable grace” to, according to Calvinism, have no choice but to become believers. Those who God doesn’t “select” to give this “irresistable grace” to have no chance of coming to Christ.
If SGM teaches this type of belief then it would make no sense to hold the parents accountable for their children not coming to Christ when they teach that it is only God who decides their children’s salvation and man’s effort makes no difference. Thus there is quite a contradiction between what SGM says they believe on this issue and some of their actions such as this.
Why isn’t SGM’s conclusion about these children that God either hasn’t “selected” them for salvation or hasn’t yet selected them for salvation? This might be what some call the “darker side’ of Calvinism that SGM doesn’t want to accept. When it is your own children it can be harder to accept what Calvinism teaches that God only elects some to salvation. If you are going to say you believe in Calvinism make sure your actions line up with that belief.
Again, I have more of an issue with SGM contradictions in what they say they believe on this matter and do vs. debating the issue.
Well after your nice compliment, I hope I haven’t lost your respect now Jim.
September 26th, 2008 at 10:18 am
Steve240, I am essentially riding Jim’s coattails on thanking you for being able to disagree agreeably; I wanted to especially highlight a comment of yours that is pure gold, especially in light of SGM’s stringency on qualifications for an elder:
Interesteing how this law has unflinchingly and uncompromisingly been laid down on an interpretation of the scriptures, yet when it comes to the qualifications of an “apostle” to have seen the risen Christ, we at SGM somehow hushedly trim that out of the bible.
Good comments!
…pk
September 26th, 2008 at 10:50 am
PK-
Your ever evolving gravatar is becoming more creepy with each edition.
September 26th, 2008 at 12:05 pm
LOL… FYI, this latest gravatar (9/26/08) is DC Comics’ rendition of Batman in the Victorian age. Probably not the gravatar of choice for others, but it works for me.
…pk
September 26th, 2008 at 12:09 pm
Protestant Knight
Thanks for your compliment.
Just realize that I was referring to a person coming to Christ and what Calvinism teaches about this vs. bringing up children that are reasonably behaved.
I do believe the qualification that scripture lays out for elders is that an elders children (not adult childrent) should be well behaved. I have seen children in “Christian” families be quite unruly and then seen non-Christian families where the children were raised to be well behaved. Scripture says a man isn’t qualified to be an elder if his children are unruly. I am not aware of a scripture that indicates they have to come to Christ.
As we both know, there is big difference between children being well behaved and a child or adult coming to Christ.
My point is that if you are going to say you believe in Calvinism then be willing to accept that God in essence reprobates some people by not selecting them for salvation. In other words, according to Calvinism God doesn’t give certain what they need to come to Christ and thus it is impossible for these “non-elect” to receive salvation. If one wants to teach “election” of some being willing to accept this darker side. This could mean that some of your family members God in essence has allowed to become reprobates.
If you say you believe in Calvinism just be willing to accept what some call the “darker” side that besides God “electing” some to salvation while those that aren’t elected are “reprobated.”
Rather than disqualifying someone to be an elder since one their children hasn’t come to Christ shouldn’t they just accept that maybe this child isn’t one of God’s “elect” or the time of “election” hasn’t occurred yet. This would be more in line with what they say they believe.
It is quite a contradiction how they can call some leaders “apostles” when these men haven’t seen Christ. I believe that SGM uses some type of wording to where they distinguish between an SGM apostle and an Apostle that has seen Christ.
September 26th, 2008 at 12:14 pm
Steve240–excellent point about the juxtaposition of SGM’s take on predestination vs. their control issues of their children.
I suppose it would also extend to and inform their reaction, which I have seen modelled twice this very week, of rejecting kids who don’t fit the mold: long hair/earrings/tats on guys, for example.
Perhaps DB’s paradox is where we need to live: we try to split the truths of scripture:
–God calls a people to himself. Jesus exults in the fact he will never lose the ones his father has given him. God foreknew and predestined his people.
–if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart God raised him from the dead, you shall be saved. Whosoever believes in him shall never perish.
–be ready at all times to share the hope within you. Go into all the world…
–if you are ashamed of me, I will be ashamed of you before the Father.
–the potter from Romans 9
We are only able to face one side of the paradox at a time, since we are caught in humanity/time/a pea-sized intellect. We also like to be right about stuff.
What if the truth is so great we cannot wrap our heads around it, a royal marriage of the doctrines we bicker over, resulting in a Bride that can not be lost?
He calls/we choose.
September 26th, 2008 at 12:17 pm
I liked your second knight pic the best.
September 26th, 2008 at 12:54 pm
Alright: In caving into peer pressure…
exhibit A (Jim):
and exhibit B (Ellie):
I have changed my ever-evolving gravatar once again… it should show up after awhile.
lol
…pk
September 26th, 2008 at 2:33 pm
Reformed Teacher
Good recent post. In my recent post I indicated that this is quite esoteric. From what I see, you are basically saying what I said about this.
As you indicated, God’s ways are much higher than ours. It is good if we realize this.
September 26th, 2008 at 2:57 pm
…does that mean the creepy one will stop staring at me soon?
September 26th, 2008 at 3:00 pm
Ellie:
If you clear your cookies, it should.
…pk
September 26th, 2008 at 3:01 pm
What’s wrong with piercings and tats?
I wouldn’t judge kids for piercings or tats anymore than I’d pressure pk into changing his avi as odd as it looks to me, it speaks someone Else’s language.
And I do live in my paradox. My IQ is a couple of standard deviations from the norm (you can make your own assumptions about the direction, ) but I know I’m neither wise nor smart enough to grasp these things, so I trust my lord and refrain from taking my opinion too seriously.
But the micromanaging children, I honestly do not understand.
First, we all get free will. It must be taken into consideration; predestination or not. It is important enough to God for Him to have allowed all manner of heartache and injustice. What makes people think children are any different. Everyone has free will.
Provide boundaries, yes, discipline, yes, dedicate, yes.
But the level of hand’s on (and by that, It usually translates into spanking, parenting is absurd. I get the sense that people honestly believe they are going to create the first generation of perfect Stepford kids.
So, they have this odd paradox (again, that word,) in which they believe in indwelling sin; they dwell on sin and sinfulness to the degree it is no longer healthy, yet, paradoxically, they think *they* are the people that are going to get parenting right and produce a generation of kids that will make them (the dear leaders, that is,) worthy (ha!) of their leadership positions.
How arrogant can one be?
September 26th, 2008 at 4:33 pm
Outstanding thoughts/comments, DB; especially noting the sheer arrogance of the we-have-finally-arrived-at-perfection attitude that some have within SGM of parenting. I am not a parent myself (unless four legged fur-garbed and fanged friends count), but I see many parents with this attitude and the resultant disasters that canoccur with newcomers (this was moreso from my church years ago than it is currently, praise God).
Anyway, well-said!
…pk
September 26th, 2008 at 5:21 pm
My original post on children wasn’t about their micromanagement though that may also be an issue in SGM. As others have pointed out, the micromanagement also tends to show they don’t really believe in what they teach on “election” and predestination. Let me try and explain this again.
My point was a contradiction between what SGM says they believe about predestination and “election” and their expecting all of their children to become believers and who is to blame if some of these children choose to follow Christ.
According to what SGM says they believe about Calvinism, if a child decides to not follow Christ then the child is not one of the “elect” or hasn’t been “elected” at this time. That should what one should logically conclude if they say they believe in Calvinism.
From what I hear, SGM is holding parents accountable (including having a pastor step down) for their adult children not becoming believers. This is a contradiction of what SGM says they believe about predestination and election. If a child decides to not follow Christ, shouldn’t someone who believes in Calvinism just accept that this child is not part of God’s “elect” or that this child’s time of “election” hasn’t occurred?
September 26th, 2008 at 5:40 pm
Steve240:
In your last comment, at the end of your first paragraph, you said:
Whoa. Nobody is trying to derail your point whatsoever. We know that you were establishing this:
I and others have simply discovered that within this the realm, your insight can shed light on many other areas, as well. That’s all. Nobody is trying to redefine what you said.
If I have misread you and there’s a communication gap that isn’t resolved via writing as opposed to verbal conversation, my apologies.
…pk
September 26th, 2008 at 8:50 pm
PK
Thanks for clarifying this. I was under the impression you were misintreting what I was saying.
I do see the contradiction you are talking about with over control of their children. A while back I mad a blog entry about that on my blog:
“Sovereign Grace” & Courtship: A Contradiction?
http://ikdg.wordpress.com/2008.....radiction/
One illustration I might make to show my point on holding parents resposible for their children coming to Christ goes back to my elementary school days. I was in a science class and the teacher showed us that the natural speed of a weight on a string depended on the length of the string and not how much weight the string was supporting. He would then say he was baffled when he aske students to explain how to correct the pendulum of a clock that was moving too fast or slow. Some of the students would say to increase/decrease the weight when they had just learned that weight was the determining factor.
SGM appears to do soemthing similar. They say that salvation depends on God’s election then blames parents for their children not coming to Christ. They are using faulty logic. Either one or the other or the other is wrong.
Well I am sure I have rattled long enough on this. ;-) Off to watch the debate.
September 27th, 2008 at 7:48 am
Canary, you wrote, “It still baffles me how I could think strongly about something, then be totally reversed in my opinion by a leader who disagreed. We aren’t talking doctrine, more like a personal decision or idea. I was asked a question by a leader once about a friend of mine. I knew the answer right away and responded confindently. The leader, not knowing my friend as well as I, said I was wrong, giving a very negative, untrue assessment of my friend instead. I knew this leader was wrong, but I accepted his opinion because he was my “authority”. Canary, you’re not alone, my friend. I hope I didn’t make you feel that way at all. You’re not alone in that at all.
September 27th, 2008 at 8:14 am
“We are only able to face one side of the paradox at a time, since we are caught in humanity/time/a pea-sized intellect. We also like to be right about stuff. What if the truth is so great we cannot wrap our heads around it, a royal marriage of the doctrines we bicker over, resulting in a Bride that can not be lost?”
AMEN! AMEN! AMEN! I once heard someone describe it this way. (Something like this at least.) You walk along and see a door. Over it is written, “Who so ever may come. He is not willing that any should perish but all come to knowledge and repentance.” You walk through the door, then turn around and see written above it on the other side, “Those chosen from the beginning of time.” That makes this simple minded person happy.
“My IQ is a couple of standard deviations from the norm (you can make your own assumptions about the direction”
DB, I love you!!!!! You make me laugh so much some times.
September 27th, 2008 at 3:58 pm
DB said: “I wouldn’t judge kids for piercings or tats anymore than I’d pressure pk into changing his avi as odd as it looks to me, it speaks someone Else’s language.”
…I wouldn’t pressure pk…
(I was just lovingly harassing him…)
September 27th, 2008 at 5:35 pm
It might be argued that piercings and tats are misuse of the body, especially for the unmarried, since a piercer/tatter is making a permanent choice about someone else’s body.
However…who really gives a flying fig newton about that? Would Jesus condemn a kid with a nose ring, or the one that judges the kid?
I just get sad over the legacy of legalism: Kids are brought up as Stepford kids (great picture) and then they reject any other kid, believer or non-believer, who doesn’t meet the mold, and their parents do the same thing–not only do the same thing, but demand that their kids do the same thing.
I suspect a bunch of people are going to be REALLY SHOCKED in the new heavens and earth–gonna be some serious WEIRD looking people there. Like us.
September 27th, 2008 at 8:58 pm
Jim
I receive google alerts when SG in mentioned on a blog. There’s been quite a few times when I visited a blog, and have seen a warning by you, inviting the readers to take a look at us and survivors. Thank you so much for your boldness in this regard, and for drawing attention to us and to SGM Survivors!
I didn’t respond to this comment since I was so busy writing about another topic here. Thanks for noticing and I am glad I can do my part. Though I have a small blog commenting on “Kissing Dating Goodbye”/Courtship I am don’t have or even feel called to set up a blog like you have. I appreciate all your efforts, your wife’s and Kris and Guy’s efforts.
I am guessing that what we are sharing here may be like what happened with Gothard and his orgainization. People started slow and eventually more and more people listened and the truth came out about that man and his ministry. Now most people have woken up to what went on there with Gothard. My guess is that will eventually happen with SGM if they don’t wake up and seek God to where they should change. This may be a warning and possibly final warning to them. Who knows what God may choose to do with this situation.
If more people publicize the existence of these blogs, more and more people will be come aware of what is going on there. The either exodus or the leadership will be forced to change.
Thanks again for all your hard work and putting yourself out there on this. I am glad to advertise this blog when and where I can.