All I have to say is this-apostle Jones, isn’t it time you realize that you have zero discernment, are disqualified from eldership due to your life-long failure to manage your household well, and just step down? (see note at the bottom of this post)
___________________________________________________
I’m going to quote myself from here:
“Lakeland is about Todd Bentley. Spend 20 minutes on you tube and come to your own conclusions. I’m persuaded that the guy is a complete charlatan. Watch his poor acting as he tries act “drunk in the spirit”. Watch his show boating as he knees a man in the stomach who has Pancreatic Cancer (clearly hurting the guy) because “God told him to”.”
“At best, this guy is clearly a yo-yo.
Christian leaders have a responsibility to compare this highly visible nonsense with Scripture. No word from CJ, and a cautious endorsement from MLC.
What confuses me is this. Is MLC just flying under the radar, with SGM totally unaware, or is the apostle Jones so powerful that CJ looks the other way, or is SGM still “privately” hyper-charismatic, while CJ presents a conservative continuationist stance to his evangelical big dog friends as a part of SGM’s effective PR.
I have no idea. I am completely confused by this.”
_______________________________________________
Now we hear from Bentley’s Fresh Fire Ministries:
August 15, 2008
From the Board of Directors
We wish to thank all of our friends and partners for the overwhelming flood of support and compassion we have received as a ministry on behalf of Todd and Shonnah Bentley. The many phone calls and emails of concern from people who genuinely love the Bentleys and Fresh Fire Ministries have been a great encouragement to all of us here during these past few days. In particular, the rallying of support and prayer for Todd and Shonnah by prominent leaders within the Body of Christ has been a beautiful indicator of the maturity and grace the Lord is bringing to his Bride.
We wish to acknowledge, however, that since our last statement from the Fresh Fire Board of Directors, we have discovered new information revealing that Todd Bentley has entered into an unhealthy relationship on an emotional level with a female member of his staff. In light of this new information and in consultation with his leaders and advisors, Todd Bentley has agreed to step down from his position on the Board of Directors and to refrain from all public ministry for a season to receive counsel in his personal life.
On behalf of the Fresh Fire leadership and the Board of Directors we wish to apologize to our friends and partners and to the larger body of Christ and to ask for your forgiveness. We are truly sorry for the pain many of you must feel and so regret that in the midst of great revival, the enemy has found a way into our camp. To those who have stood by us, we wish to thank you for what in many cases has been years of support. Thank you for your financial giving towards the vision of this ministry, and thank you especially for your prayers. For those of our partners, friends and supporters who may be struggling with the recent disclosures and finding continued support of this ministry in conflict with either conscience or conviction, we release and bless you with all our hearts and trust that God will redeem in your hearts the good that He has accomplished in your lives through this ministry. It is our sincerest hope and prayer that the Lord bless you and bring you into your fullest destiny in Him.
When this ministry was initially birthed in May of 1998, Todd had but one simple desire in his heart – to see the world come to know Jesus. Now, only 10 years later, Fresh Fire Ministries has grown to become a Resource Center that is literally reaching out to all the corners of the Earth. There have been dozens of associate ministries, scores of interns and hundreds of graduates from the Supernatural Training Center. Over 60 nations have received a combined total of more than five million dollars in humanitarian aid and we have seen well over one million conversions for Jesus Christ.
And so, the question can well be asked… where do we go from here? It is true that we are deeply saddened by these recent events, but it hasn’t shaken our faith in either God or His goodness towards us and with the help of wise and compassionate leaders within the body, we will do everything within our power to see our brother and sister healed and restored.
As a ministry, we can not forsake the vision and heartbeat upon which Todd Bentley founded Fresh Fire Ministries which is simply this:
- Matthew 10:7-8
And as you go, Preach, saying, “The kingdom of heaven is at hand” Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons. Freely you have received, freely give.
While Todd and Shonnah each go through the necessary steps towards restoration and wholeness, we are compelled, with the resources with which God has entrusted us, to continue to spread God’s love and power all over the world.
There are many noble activities and endeavors in which Fresh Fire Ministries is involved, initiated by Todd, and to which we are still committed. We have the Supernatural Training Centre, our school of ministry, already in it’s fourth full year and with more than 50 students already enrolled we’re believing for an amazing year of biblical instruction, practical application and encounters with the presence of God. Many mature and gifted speakers and associates, graduated interns and teachers filled brim-full with the DNA and fire of this ministry are ready to pour revelation and passion into the hungry hearts of this coming year’s student body.
We will continue to host conferences in our region with speakers and worship leaders from around the nation whose message and mandates resonate with the vision and heart of Fresh Fire Ministries. In addition, we are committed to supporting the growing “OutPourings” across North America and around the world with our Associates, with encouragement and prayer support. In Todd’s own words, “What God is doing is bigger than one man”, and we now have a golden opportunity as the Body of Christ to pick up the baton and to run with perseverance for His glory.
Our missions department is progressing, as previously mentioned, with our major African crusade. With close to 100 team members in attendance, excitement is beginning to build and team members have responded that they are still believing God for the most amazing missions trip ever! Our Uganda Jesus Village in Kampala is forging ahead with the recent acquisition of 35 acres of land 30 minutes drive from our present location. Two of the 15 homes planned for the property are nearing completion, and the expanded village, when finished, will house almost 150 orphans rescued from war torn northern Uganda.
So whether in our Children’s Home in Africa, in our Supernatural Training Centre in British Columbia, in the revival meetings and outpourings spreading around the globe, or in taking teams to minister compassion and practical assistance to the poor in the far corners of the Earth, we have been and still are committed to bringing love, hope and a demonstration of the saving, healing, delivering power of the Gospel to a world in need.
Thank you all once again for your prayers and support. We bless each and every one of you in whatever decision you must make. Please know that our heart in all of this is to see the name of the Lord vindicated, and we take great encouragement from Psalm 23 and the Lord’s promise that He will “lead us in paths of righteousness for His name’s sake.” Together we look to the mercy and wisdom of our loving Father and we remain as ever, your brothers and sisters in Christ.
The Fresh Fire Board of Directors
________________________________________________
Update, August 20
I knew about this, but was waiting for it to hit the news.
This is Todd’s second “affair” in the last 3 years. His fans won’t like the fact that I’m reporting this, but the man is truly a dog.
Here’s the story
___________________________________________________
Update August 26
Todd has been put out to pasture, and the “apostles” who aligned themselves with him are all now moonwalking away from him as fast as they can.
You can read more here. Argue with that crowd, if you’re up to it-I’m done with Todd.
I’ve left this post up in it’s entirety, but would love to delete my first paragraph. Do I think Jessie Philips should have condemned Todd and Lakeland? Yes. Do I think the apostle Jones should have publicly corrected the young pastor in training on his staff? Yes.
That being said, I went too far. Jones was not a part of the “apostolic alliance”, and the swipe that I took at his leadership in regards to his family was snarky at best. I’ve felt that the apostle was unqualified for years ( I went public with this charge in May of 2005, telling my SGC sr p, and a regional leader w/in SGM)
Here’s the problem-if I’m not willing to publicly back up my reasons for calling the “apostle” to step down, I need to quit dropping snarky little hints. Florida is well aware of his family issues, but people I love are involved, and I’m not going to plaster Jones’ dirty laundry on the internet.
I repent. I would take the first part of my post down, but I feel that would be a hypocritical act-a sort of covering for myself by erasing something I wish I hadn’t said. It was clearly a swing and a miss. So, I’ll leave it up-behold my stupidity. There will probably be more.
August 16th, 2008 at 3:35 pm
What do the first few lines have to do with the rest of this post? I really hope the best for this site and its mission, for various reasons, but those not-so-subtle hints without any follow-up (unless the story of the Tampa intern was one) over the past few weeks don’t give the best impression to 1st time lurkers. Maybe that can be clarified - would be helpful.
August 16th, 2008 at 3:59 pm
I agree with the comment above - where is any direct link, Jim, between Todd Bentley, and Jones’s alleged “life-long failure to manage your household well“? To quote you quoting yourself, “I have no idea. I am completely confused by this.”
August 16th, 2008 at 4:12 pm
The link between Bentley and SGM Florida is this-Jessie P, who is on staff at MLC, the Florida mothership and home of the apostle Jones, gave Lakeland a “cautious” endorsement. My statement from July 23 stands:
Christian leaders have a responsibility to compare this highly visible nonsense with Scripture. No word from CJ, and a cautious endorsement from MLC.
What confuses me is this. Is MLC just flying under the radar, with SGM totally unaware, or is the apostle Jones so powerful that CJ looks the other way, or is SGM still “privately” hyper-charismatic, while CJ presents a conservative continuationist stance to his evangelical big dog friends as a part of SGM’s effective PR.
The apostle Jones (along with many others) showed a complete lack of discernment by not correcting his young pastor in training, and calling the Lakeland circus what it was-a farce led by a huckster.
His lack of discernment has also informed the way he has “led” his family. Those in Florida know exactly what I’m talking about.
August 16th, 2008 at 11:08 pm
Here’s something that can apply equally to Todd Bentley and the pastors of SGM. It’s by Rev. Allen Baker, Pastor of Christ Community Presbyterian Church in West Hartford, CT; part of a longer statement about the condition of the Church in America.
———————————
I am deeply grieved over the condition of the church in America. What are we to do? We must pray, asking God the Holy Spirit to come upon preachers, granting them boldness to preach the doctrines of God’s holiness, Christ’s atoning death, and the necessity of the new birth.
These same preachers must turn away from sin, all the while abiding in Christ, never forgetting their dependence upon the Spirit for everything. They must be sensitive to the Spirit’s indwelling and leading, keeping short accounts with God, repenting quickly and humbly when their sin is revealed to them. They must remember they will stand before Christ and be judged according to their deeds. They will give an account of their labors for Christ.
And they must daily surrender everything to Jesus, not holding back like Achan did with the spoil. They must be willing to spend and be spent for the sake of the gospel. They must be willing to be fools for Christ’s sake. They must be willing to suffer reproach and false accusations. They must die to self.
August 17th, 2008 at 2:29 pm
Famagusta,
Does my explanation help at all?
I’d really appreciate more input-either here or by email.
August 17th, 2008 at 3:16 pm
keepinstep,
That quote from Rev. Baker is so excellent! I’m going to make a copy to keep in my Bible. It doesn’t just speak to leaders, but to the Body of Christ, as well. Thanks for putting that in.
Jim,
Comment about the “Apostle Jones” just seemed to come out of the blue. I didn’t know, and still do not know, what you are talking about. It was confusing, and sounded like an accusation. That’s not what you meant it to be, right?
As for Todd Bently, it is sad that the enemy “came in like a flood”. I saw another man like him fall, but it did not negate the prophecies and miracles that occurred during the time previous to his sin. But you were right to doubt his character, it seems. Very sad for the Body of Christ.
August 17th, 2008 at 4:00 pm
I do have to add that I like the way the Ministry has handled the situation. They are, in a loving way, attempting to help Todd and his wife to be restored. There is not anger or an accusatory manner in how the letter is written. Though Todd is stepping down, you get the sense that he is being neither shunned nor dismembered.
August 17th, 2008 at 5:10 pm
canary,
The family thing was something that 100’s of people in Florida already know. It was also an accusation.
The oversight thing is right out of CJ’s playbook.
From his blog post here:
1. Protect Your People
A pastor’s role includes protecting the flock from error. This is no easy task today, especially when so many of the popular books and videos published by professing Christians who appear to have serious theological deficiencies. Yet pastors cannot simply ignore the prevalence and influence of these materials; they have the responsibility to protect those entrusted to their care.
This discernment is especially important when the issues are of primary importance and not secondary, when—as carefully noted by Greg Gilbert—matters of the gospel are in question.
It’s worth noting that acting to protect the flock from published teachings that depart from Scripture is handled differently than steps taken privately to confront a brother in sin (i.e. Matthew 18:15-20). Let me state clearly that I don’t assign sinful motivation to Rob Bell. Actually, I assume he is sincere. But sincerity doesn’t exempt any of us from the appropriate evaluation of what we teach.
August 18th, 2008 at 3:14 pm
Jim, I think this is overblown. Everyone who wanted could go down to Lakeland and give a sober evaluation of what went on, whatever it might have been, without condemning anything, and put it on a blog that a handful of people read. As far as I can see, that was all, there is no reason to take the extra 5 miles and accuse other pastors of a lack of discernment, or bring up family stories. There are better places for that. At no point did anyone from MLC “endorse” what went on down there as far as I can see from what you posted and linked to.
What really sparked my de-lurking though is that these kinds of attacks on SGM are exactly the thing they could only wish for: they distract from the real issues and they paint a picture of the ex-SGM community as simply personally hurt and therefore obsessed with picking on anything they can find.
But you, as well as SGMSurvivors(!), can only remain credible, subversive and effective if your sites are different from the thousands of websites out there by angry people who are ready to pick on any minor oddness of the groups, denominations or leaders they don’t like. There are sites out there that shoot like cray at Piper, sites that shoot like crazy at MacArthur, sites that shoot at Driscoll, sites that shoot at Jerry Falwell, sites that shoot at the Dalai Lama… and they don’t change a thing! Do you know what I mean? You will need to be different in order for SGM to be shaken. And that will require different strategies, different arguments than the one above.
If you want to be heard, don’t shout too loud! You will need your breath for the many serious things you are still in the position to uncover and articulate on this site.
Jim, there is enough really serious stuff to point out for an insider like you. More than enough, I am sure.
If you know something, say it (at the end of July, you wrote that in that month you thought of publishing something about SGM Florida “31 days”)!
But such hints, weak links and seemingly “angry” arguments harm your cause more than they help. Since your cause is a good one, I hope this will change.
I am sure there are people out there hoping for you to say something. But not something like the above. Keep up the good work, please!
p.s.: I hope it is ok to publish this here and not shoot you an e-mail. I wanted this different take on all things critical of SGM to be here, visible for visitors who may be out off by the initial post. I hope you understand, if not, please feel free to delete this and let me know that I need to write you an e-mail. Thanks!
August 18th, 2008 at 4:25 pm
Fama-I appreciate your input. I thought I made a valid point-CJ has moved away from Toronto, and MLC is longing for it. Perhaps I missed.
Jessie’s post was reposted on Adrian Warnock’s blog (which is where I found it). His is a high traffic site.
I consider the Bentley nonsense a serious matter.
On August 2, my blog died. I’m still rebuilding and way off track. That’s where I need input-”Jim, you’re off track” is helpful!
I am beating around the bush with the Jones issue. I think about posting specifics every day. I don’t know how to do it without hurting people I care about.
This is a public forum. Of course I’d prefer an email, because you’re exposing my weakness
I appreciate your input-public or private.
August 18th, 2008 at 6:51 pm
Jim:
Without any disrespect whatsoever to Famagusta, here’s my take on the websites that have publicly aired concerns over SGM (my organization, by the way):
The Pope said Luther was a drunk, and that when he sobered up, things would settle down. Luther was also referred to as a wild boar at loose in the field of the Lord. Many claimed the legitimacy of Luther’s stand was questionable as he was incendiary with “profane” illustrations on his “heretical” tracts; the minority that followed Luther was pretty much a rag-tag team ranging from societal outcasts all the way “up” to the wealthy and intellectual. God will use what appears to be foolish to others to confound their wisdom.
The Reformation started with the 95 theses, but it did not happen overnight.
Jim, keep posting. Your concern is legitimate, and your cause is legitimate.
…pk
August 18th, 2008 at 6:55 pm
Thanks PK!
I haven’t spoken to fam-don’t know anything about him or her.
I’m thinking fam might be an insider, and knows how sensitive SGM leaders are-so concerned with presentation.
If that’s the case, I need that type of reminder-I’ve been away from all things SGM for 2 years.
I also need your input.
August 19th, 2008 at 11:03 am
Knight,
I think I hear what you’re saying (drawing on similarities between Luther and Jim as bold and outspoken “reformers”, hehe ;), but actually you just confirmed my point: the Pope called Luther all kinds of things - and it didn’t help much. If anything, it only increased sympathies for Luther.
Smart, solid and sober criticism would have done more.
See what I meant?
I think we all want the same things to happen. And they need to happen in a way that can be taken seriously, and picked up on, by SGM as well as interested outsiders. And Jim is one of the men to do that. - no doubt, his response above to my concerns only increased my opinion.
Jim, I do respect that you feel serious over the Lakeland madness and hope you stay safe today and tonight in Titusville!
August 19th, 2008 at 11:50 am
I’m no Luther-and those who know me will tell you that I’m not all that bright. I’m not a reformer, just someone hoping for reform.
Smart, solid and sober criticism is limited by the vessel. I’ll be hit and miss. The Bentley thing may have been a miss. I thought it was important. Again, that’s why input is so important.
Fam, what’s your take on the Brent/Elliot post?
August 19th, 2008 at 11:53 am
Fama:
I hear what you are saying, and while there is some merit to it, unfortunately we are not all “smart, solid and sober.” This world is chock full of sinners, some saved by grace, and some not.
This doesn’t excuse erratic behavior on the part of anyone, but in many cases it becomes incredibly hard to make coherent, intelligent criticisms without being caught up in the emotional train wreck involved. I also think at SGM we insulate ourselves to make it impossible for an outside party, particularly individuals, to raise such widely-encompassing issues and/or concerns (to put it mildly) because the tendency is to write off anything that hasn’t been approved by SGM. This is like a snake consuming itself! We pat ourselves on the back for hitting the big time with things like T4G while treating the people in our congregations like a doormat for lust for power and fitting the amorphous, spiny block of our theology through the round hole of grace. Leaders have an endless capacity for addressing other people’s sin while the enemy of their souls has exploited their own! Are you really telling me that every emotion-filled testimony here is bogus, without merit and not worth even a cursory consideration on the part of us? Does it strike you that even a shred of truth from here is enough to cause us to tremble before a Sovereign God? Or is His Sovereign Grace just that cheap to where we can blowtorch someone else while counting on His blood to cover us?
This is a travesty and trampling of the Gospel in so many ways, I can’t even adequately, verbally describe it. It probably isn’t smart, solid and sober.
This type of chasing our theological tail around the mulberry bush does nothing but leave a wake of bitterness and ties up our flock’s families into knotty pretzels that will explode with very little effort.
We have to acknowledge that (a) we are the originators of provoking some of these folks into bitterness and (b) clean up our own back yard in terms of emotional, biting responses posted here by those in Sovereign Grace Ministries. And if these people don’t speak for you, Famagusta, then I ask you to extend the same grace to folks here. I’ve seen responses from fellow SGMers on these websites that make my hair stand on end in terms of their self-righteous gloating, officious torpedoes of self-proclaimed theological superiority and just some plain old cursing and teeth-gnashing.
Before you want “smart, solid and sober” dialogue to take place, we have to stop firing our cannons at those who’ve left. Reactionary responses (and I am guilty of this on these blogs, God forgive me) to concerns raised here only fuels the fire of turmoil people have gone through.
I can’t really fault anyone for emotionalism here, as ultimately (a) I am not their judge on everything that has happened to them and (b) SGM does NOT create an atmosphere for “smart, solid and sober” dialogue. If people’s behavior turns sinful, then my prayer is that we all lay that before God and seek His help in walking out repentance.
If we really lay claim to having an understanding of God’s Sovereignty and Man’s Responsibility, we at SGM need to be on our faces first, asking for a Holy God’s grace in removing the trees from our own eyes before we try to flick toothpicks out of the eyes of those who’ve departed.
…pk
August 19th, 2008 at 2:38 pm
This is a travesty and trampling of the Gospel in so many ways, I can’t even adequately, verbally describe it. It probably isn’t smart, solid and sober.”
thanks, and of course I don’t mean there must be “white collar criticism” only, I hope you didn’t misunderstand me that way. I don’t think, or ever wrote, that Jim displayed “erratic behavior”, and neither do I have anything to do with SGMers who posted here or elsewhere, I don’t think I wrote anything in that regard either. Also, I understand frustration etc. - more than you might think I do.
All I wanted to point out is that the use of “strong words” against SGM must be founded on “strong” things happening, or at least relatively strong ones, otherwise the ex-SGM community here will be an easy target to be labeled by SGM as “just an angry bunch of the usual disappointed folk that every denomination has”.
There are enough such “strong” things to be pointed out - by Jim and by others. I am guessing that quite some out there are hoping for that to happen, and for that to have an effect. and it will have the most effect only if it is well-aimed.
I hope this clarifies things, and gives you an idea of what I am hoping for for this site and others - I’m hoping the best, just as you.
I don’t think I should write any more on this now. Peace
August 19th, 2008 at 2:51 pm
Jim and Famagusta:
Apologies if this was taken as a shotgun blast; My statement about the “trampling of the gospel” was in reference to the hypocritical behavior of removing splinters from eyes while we have logs in our own… it was NOT directed at you, Famagusta.
Please forgive me.
…pk
August 19th, 2008 at 3:04 pm
Fam,
I see what you are saying.
August 19th, 2008 at 3:52 pm
Fam-I sent you an email, but it bounced. Please send me a note here
August 19th, 2008 at 6:04 pm
I really admire your tone towards each other–thank you so much for being quick to listen, slow to speak, slow to anger. Your gracious conversation is a challenge to me as I examine the use of my tongue!
Jim, you are not wrong about your concern over SGM’s wiggly response to Bentley. I believe Bentley is a serious problem, and I don’t understand, when we are urged in Scripture to test teachers/prophets, why those in SGM leadership refuse to do so.
In my community of SGMers, there are several who are Bentley-ites-they travel down there for the ‘revivals,’ watching him baptize in the name of “the Father, the Son and BAM,” kick people, slap people, etc. One of them is the wife of a CGL and a leader in the youth ministries.
I asked a pastor’s wife from this church for her opinion of Bentley and his teachings, and she waffled, saying that neither she nor her pastor/husband really have an opinion.
Well, make one. (Sound of hair-pulling and eye rolling in background)
Pro or Con, make one! I know that there will be disagreement between us about the validity of his ministry, but we all have to admit that he and others like him are here to stay for awhile, and are having an impact on a small segment of the Body.
Do you think CJ, et al, are kind of like the younger senators who go up to Washington filled with a general fervor to do good, then realize, after arrival, that to be truly effective they have to land in one camp and stay there? The problem for them comes when they realize that landing and standing in one camp will cost them the approval of those camping elsewhere.
For example, Piper / Sproul / MacArthur are not going to waffle on Bentley–they will make cogent and specifics criticisms of his theology. On the other hand, the Third Wave crowd, who really is the spiritual ancestor of SGM in many ways, is going to be mad if SGM comes out with the Reformed Big Dogs. So perhaps the immediate SGM solution is to plant their heads firmly under their pillows and wait until the storm blows over…..or until there is a moral lapse which is easy to condemn?
SGM has gone through many twists and turns of vision and theology–their history is so very young and filled with leadership changes/direction shifts. This is a chance for them to not wait until the chips fall, but make a stance ahead of time.
August 19th, 2008 at 6:18 pm
RT-well said. Especially this:
“I asked a pastor’s wife from this church for her opinion of Bentley and his teachings, and she waffled, saying that neither she nor her pastor/husband really have an opinion.
Well, make one.”
Colossians 2:18
Where Scripture is clear, leaders should speak clearly.
August 19th, 2008 at 6:20 pm
I agree with Famagusta. It seems like a stretch to connect the failure of Todd Bentley to SGM.
I am not aware of an endorsement at the top level, nor am I aware of an explicit criticism. That leaves me with no opinion. I’m not a big fan of this post. Sorry!
August 19th, 2008 at 6:33 pm
No need to be sorry, eq.
Forget Todd’s failure for a moment.
Knowing what was going on in Lakeland, if members and staff of the mothership in Florida are going to Lakeland hoping to find Toronto, should the apostle of the SE US, who is the sr p of the Florida mothership remain neutral (or possibly positive behind closed doors)?
Again, this all started with my stated confusion over CJ’s view and Orlando’s view.
Let’s say this post is just horrible. I would agree in a sense, as I was clearly saying “I told you so”. Not my finest moment. All things Bentley bug the heck out of me, and I knew that this story would come out.
Aside from my snarky moment, is my original question valid?
August 19th, 2008 at 7:03 pm
yes, Yes, YES, it is valid. (ok, your Jones allusion was a little snarky, but we all need Jesus.)
We have to be jealous for the purity of the church! How can a church denomination send an ambassador, of sorts, to check out Lakeland, and then have him post that wishy-washy blog?
I think you have an excellent ’sniff’ going on here: why, in a church that, depending on which local body is in view dictates to its membership how to dress, how to date/court, what to read, where to go for conferences, when/where to prepare for the pastorate, which care groups to be in, how to raise kids, etc., why won’t they address some serious problems with a ministry in which many of their own members are involved? There is something off about it.
Just do some research into Bentley’s life and ministry, and the other blogs and comments from people about the meetings: people being refused access to the ‘healer’ if they don’t fit the mold, there are so many things….and make a judgement!
August 19th, 2008 at 7:16 pm
The original question was not for me, but for “apostle” Jones. He was asked to realize that he has “zero” discernment and a “life long” failure to manage his household.
I don’t see why he would be compelled, either by the hyperbolic nature of the accusations or by the weak supporting evidence, to answer. I believe, to the contrary, that this gives him reason to ignore this site completely.
Not the effect you were going for, I know.
…You asked!
August 19th, 2008 at 7:18 pm
RT saith: “On the other hand, the Third Wave crowd, who really is the spiritual ancestor of SGM in many ways, is going to be mad if SGM comes out with the Reformed Big Dogs.”
SGM, whose mother church was birthed during the charismatic revival of the 70s, actually predates the Third Wave.
I don’t, however, think the TW is going to be “mad” at SGM about anything at all. SGM doesn’t openly identify with any TW authors/theologians/organizations, so I doubt SGM shows up on the TW radar screen. (Has Peter Wagner ever mentioned SGM, or made any statement indicating he cares that SGM exists?)
August 19th, 2008 at 7:24 pm
EQ,
The apostle knows exactly what I’m referring to, as does everyone around him.
That’s not the original question I was talking about.
I appreciate your input. Sincerely.
August 19th, 2008 at 8:28 pm
K-as always, you make excellent points.
I do see in my SGM friends and clients, however, a real ambivelence concerning their own spiritual identity and heritage. Many who come in to SGM see the style of worship, and assume a pentecostal/charismatic root. Others see the more traditional evangelicalism and theology and think otherwise. This is why there is a rumbling locally about TW stuff–some think SGM is still tied, genetically, to those who now make up the TW, others think SGM has roots in the reformation. It is probably both? What do you think? Is this ambivelence more of a local thing rather than a national one?
This is why, I believe, it is going to be important for CJ or Harris to give some sort of leadership…or perhaps it should stay a local thing? There is a conflict brewing here, that’s for sure, over whether the TW healing ministries are going to be in the church.
In all honesty, it almost seems as if the local leadership is unaware of the whole Lakeland/Toronto thing, and their implications for this congregation.
August 19th, 2008 at 8:35 pm
EQ-
This is my original question. The 2 Bentley posts are related.
What confuses me is this. Is MLC just flying under the radar, with SGM totally unaware, or is the apostle Jones so powerful that CJ looks the other way, or is SGM still “privately” hyper-charismatic, while CJ presents a conservative continuationist stance to his evangelical big dog friends as a part of SGM’s effective PR.
I have no idea. I am completely confused by this.”
August 19th, 2008 at 8:52 pm
RT saith: “…there is a rumbling locally about TW stuff–some think SGM is still tied, genetically, to those who now make up the TW, others think SGM has roots in the reformation. It is probably both? What do you think? Is this ambivelence more of a local thing rather than a national one?”
If Jim & other commenters are correct, Mahaney’s spin of the steering wheel into Reformed/indwelling-sin waters hasn’t dissuaded some leaders from taking the “charismatic” language of their official statements at face value. And, apparently, the Holy Spirit still makes an occasional appearance in Florida (!) SGM churches.
That makes it seem as though the struggle for the “heart” of SGM is not over, though I can’t imagine that Mahaney’s highly visible love-affair with the cessationist crowd hasn’t had some impact.
I think one, little-noticed, “wild card” is the effect that the addition of more pre-existing churches will have on the focus and direction of SGM. Just as the addition of Dave Harvey eventually had a huge (negative) impact on SGM, it’s possible some new leader in the future may out-Mahaney Mahaney, and bull his way into control of the organization…in the guise of a humble, cross-centered servant, of course.
August 19th, 2008 at 11:20 pm
I’m not sure what you mean by Third Wave healing ministries - as opposed to Biblical healing ministries. Please explain what “TW healing ministries” are, and whether you believe these are a good or a bad thing.
Healing in SGM is not a new thing, but, I would guess, no longer taught as part of the gospel (as it is in Heb 2:4).
August 19th, 2008 at 11:32 pm
Off topic:
Kali, how did you do the little boxed in quote thing?? That looks cool!
August 19th, 2008 at 11:44 pm
“Kali, how did you do the little boxed in quote thing?? That looks cool!”
I’m not quite sure - I tried using some quote code, but now I can’t get it to duplicate the effect.
August 20th, 2008 at 1:29 am
Admittedly, many of us are going to be on opposite sides of this, but here is my take:
Being a Sola Scriptura PCA drone, my answer would be this. Scripture is our rule. James chapter 5 tells us this: “is any among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer of faith will save the one who is sick and the Lord will raise him up…”
So…the differences between the Todd Bentley ministry of healing and more traditional Biblical healing, in my opinion, which is worth about what you are paying for it, are these:
1. Calling for the elders of the church. The very nature of this sentence implies that the sick one remains where he/she is, and the elders come to him/her. Todd is not an elder in my church, and has no intrinsic authority over my family. Also, he doesn’t know us, has no pastoral care towards us. Additionally, I don’t know him. But I do know, well, the three elders that came to my house last week to anoint and pray for my daughter. They spoke to her, they cried for her, they laughed with her, then they gathered and prayed for her, anointing her, trusting in Abba’s sovereign care for her. They see her each week and they email her when she is at college. They are her elders and they love her.
2. Yelling BAM and whapping people on their foreheads are not praying. Prayer is a holy privilege, a high calling, a communion between us and the Father. I simply cannot believe that yelling BAM is communing with the God of the Universe, either in tongues or in English.
3. Anointing with oil is commanded, yet other than the occasional oil that he claims appears on his hands, he does not anoint with oil.
4. Elders is plural, as is the pronoun used later, “they.” Todd, as far as I can see and have heard, works by himself. I have seen many times when he is dealing one on one with the one needing healing. I hve always thought that elders gather in a group to anoint and pray mirrors the injunction that Jesus gave us, ‘where two or three are gathered in my name….”
I am open to correction, however…is there an example in the New Testament of a man with a ministry like Todd’s? Certainly the apostles traveled frequently, but this was in the process of planting churches in unchurched areas, bringing the Gospel as they traveled, as well as signs and wonders as proof of the veracity of the Word. Is there a biblical example of a man, (except Jesus), who sets up a remote location, and then people flood to that place, away from the group of believers in which they worship,?
Also, if healing is a gift of God to the church, why do so many TW healers ’sell’ their healing methods in seminars? I just can’t envision Jesus, Peter, Paul, or Thomas selling seminars in which they advertise that you, too, can have the gift of healing. How can one sell a gift of God? If all good gifts come down from above from the Father of lights…he is the one that gives. So, if I pay $400 for the healing seminar, but God is not planning to give me this gift, do I get my money back?
In fact, I think this is precisely what Jesus got so extremely torqued off about in the temple: making money off the Bride of Christ.
We will differ on this, too, but I do believe that the Bible teaches that women are not to be in positions of official leadership (elders) in the church. They have too many other things to do. But, because of my interpretation, I believe that women will not have public healing ministries, (implicitly claiming to be elders), however many TW healers are women.
Please don’t think that I believe women have not been God’s means of grace to the sick, or that the faithful prayer of a woman cannot be used to effect healing in one who is needy–of course they can and do, probably more so than any man has. I am simply talking about the James 5 healing…which is the premise of my argument.
I certainly can’t say whether TW healing ministries are good or bad….God is at work in his church at all times, and I know many involved in the Third Wave mnistries are blessed and healed, and I give God glory for that. Whenever Jesus is lifted up, he will draw all men to him.
However, I am saddened by one aspect of TW ministry: the lack of accountability involved: it can only hurt this movement when Todd gets this level of acceptance publicly when many of the leadership is highly sceptical. The very fact that the Bentley’s marriage was that messed up, and that he was emotionally connected to his staff member without anyone’s knowledge makes me sad that he was not in communion with other elders in a small body of Christ.
Also, I believe elders are chosen by the congregation (one point that bugs me about SGM). Todd was not elected to his position of elder.
I know a SGM sister who is planning to take the healing course sold by another healing ministry, run by a married couple, and then she plans to ’set up shop’ in her SGM church.
That’s why I think Jim is right about this being an important issue: SGM is going to have to decide where they are on this.
August 20th, 2008 at 8:42 am
I guess it’s too easy to say “ditto” on Reformed Teacher’s thoughts on this, but I couldn’t quantify it any better. So, DITTO, and DITTO on Jim’s concerns about this.
I’ll have a more “profound” (LOL) comment after my coffee.
…pk
August 20th, 2008 at 10:31 am
PK saith: “I know a SGM sister who is planning to take the healing course sold by another healing ministry, run by a married couple, and then she plans to ’set up shop’ in her SGM church.”
An older couple with a healing ministry once came to the SGM church I belonged to. They wanted to be members, but also wanted to pursue their ministry. They assumed the SGM church leaders would welcome them and give at least vocal support to their ministry. They were mistaken on both counts, and left the church not too long after.
I would be very surprised if this SGM sister succeeds in her venture, while remaining a member of her SGM church.
November 19th, 2008 at 12:16 am
MetroLife Church is one of the most (if not THE most) charismatic of the SGM churches. While SGM used to be more charismatic than it is today, MLC retains much of that “heritage.” Their worship leader (Todd Twining) is the most “charismatic” of all the pastors there (he is a fully ordained pastor now.) I attended with my teenage kids, the X-treme conference (post-Jeremy Jones as leader) and Todd was leading a prophecy and ministry time, and said he had a word for people who wear glasses. Having been in PDI/SGM for almost 20 years, this was the most bizarre “word” I have ever heard. It wasn’t a thing about being healed from wearing glasses, just a strange word of encouragement for those who do wear glasses. Then he had a word for men named “Jose”. Very strange.
November 19th, 2008 at 10:38 pm
Wow! That really is a blast from the past. I remember the days when Bob Kauflin would have strange “words” (sometimes at the prompting of C.J.) for bald men and others burdened with the sins of life :). I did visit MLC once many years ago with my family and they really did stuff out of the box, but it was interesting. Unfortunately as you have aptly noted, SGM (at least the mothership) has steered away from the rocky shoals of charismaticism, much to my dismay. For all intent purposes, they may as well apply for membership into the the PCA. R.C. would probably welcome them in; uh, wait a min. On second thought, baptism would definately be a problem. Oh well, there’s still time for them to change their mind, for as we all know, constant change is here to stay!
November 20th, 2008 at 12:28 am
Well Todd Twining is a direct “disciple” of Bob’s. Even lived with him while he was at the Pastor’s College back in 2001/2002.
November 20th, 2008 at 9:53 am
SGMFlorida- Welcome!
November 21st, 2008 at 9:48 am
Deleted,
I remember the bald thing, too. For some odd reason it has stuck with me all these years.
I come from a family of bald men. When my son was in 2nd grade and learned about heredity he started warning his friends to enjoy his hair ’cause it wouldn’t be around for long. We pretty much embrace the bald thing. Heck, I even tell my bald friends that it is generally related to having more testostorone (sp?!) than men with lots of hair. (No offense intended to you, Jim. I’m all about the hair in men.)
But I think what made it stick with me is CJ calling men who used Rograine, in essence, to repent. That they were not embracing the way God had made them. My heart hurt for these guys he was speaking to. Many men (like CJ and my dad) have embraced their baldness and that’s fine. But other men in this day and age see it as a choice. Certainly nothing the bible makes a big deal about one way or another. But here’s the thing that gets me, if CJ was all about people “repenting” for trying to change the way God had sovereignly made them, then why the heck was Carolyn not brought up on stage and publically rebuked for coloring her hair? Why was she not called to turn from this “sin” as the men at that meeting were? Why was that same level of condemnation and guilt not dumped on her?
Not that I think she should go through that. It just means I don’t think any of those other men should have received that either and still pray for those who may be affected by it.
November 21st, 2008 at 2:45 pm
Stunned,
I was “disqualified” by the head Pastor of our church because I colored my hair. He was rude and insensitive in the way he approached me to ask if I had colored it (as if it was any business of his in the first place). I could sense his dismissal of me, even though my husband was right there saying how much he loved the new color. This Pastor had no idea that I was in the process of being freed from the fear of man ( my husband understood), that even the simple act of changing my hair color for a time was a way for me to express a little freedom from the traditions that bound me.
So, I wonder why Carolyn M. was okay in coloring her hair and I wasn’t? And why did bald men rate so highly with CJ, to the point that men went out and shaved their domes? Sounds a little like the ole’ circumcision debate all over again…
Really, what it seems like is that CJ was preaching that bald men who embraced their hair loss were more justified than men who did not. Man, what a burden to put on other believers. Yuck.
November 21st, 2008 at 2:50 pm
Deleted said,
“Oh well, there’s still time for them to change their mind, for as we all know, constant change is here to stay!”
HA-HA-HA-HA-HA! That should go in the “random quote” section on this blog. Priceless!
November 21st, 2008 at 2:55 pm
Disqualified for coloring your hair!?!?! There are some ladies in our church with hair color that is not found anywhere in nature. I wonder how our SP feels about that. Oh yeah, we don’t have an SP right now. He’s at the PC. So I guess they get a pass until he gets back in May 2009.
November 21st, 2008 at 3:53 pm
SGMFlorida,
Disqualified for coloring your hair!?!?! There are some ladies in our church with hair color that is not found anywhere in nature.
Ha! We left PDI in 1997, so maybe the rules have relaxed a little. That makes me laugh, though.
Let’s face it. The church is still telling people, in many odd ways, that men have to be “circumcized” in order to be sanctified. If your are bald, stay bald. If you are a married woman, stay at home. If you are a kid, never think for yourself. If you aren’t in a local church, you aren’t a Christian. If you move, get permission (and be sure there is an SGM church where you are going). If you have a junk drawer, you are not walking in integrity (I’m not kidding!). If you are a married woman you can never say “no” to intimacy with your husband, even if you are nine months pregnant. If you are single, you must not date. And the list goes on…
Does anyone see how ridiculous it all is? Or how close this type of legalism is to the type Paul speaks of in Galations? Oh foolish Americans, who has bewitched you? Having started out in the spirit, are you now trying to complete your salvation in the flesh? Boy, would we, the church, get an earful if Paul was alive today! I don’t mean to be insensitive, but we should be laughing at ourselves, and then falling upon our knees, weeping in repentance. The lack of grace in many of our churches today has effected our witness to the world. We are ineffective when we allow even a little bit of the leaven of the Pharasees into our dough…