What self righteous sanctimonious bull.
I have some new friends in Charlotte (thanks, Care Group leaders! The more you trash us, the more email we receive). I had heard some inside stuff about Brent’s “church plant”, but did not want to post without verification. That means I just endured Mickey and Brent, all in one shot. I’m nauseous.
On December 9th, these heroes of the faith conducted a thinly veiled appeal for money, wrapped in all of the usual, out of context, disingenuous, manipulative crap. The Word of God is certainly not crap, but these men treat it as such.
Mickey spoke of the “Gospel going forth into a new area”. This “new area” is 18 miles down the road. This new area, for which Crossway is “sacrificing for the Gospel” has 1 Lutheran, 2 Presbyterian, 2 Baptist, and 4 Methodist churches WITHIN ONE MILE of their new meeting place. I forgot that the Lutherans, Presbyterians, Baptists, and Methodists did not preach the Gospel. Thanks for the reminder. Don’t tell Lig Duncan and Mark Dever.
Do a 5 mile church search, and you’ll lose count. This is the Bible belt, right in the center of an incredible amount of churches THAT PREACH THE GOSPEL.
There was of course much talk of “mission”. That’s who I think of when I see Brent-he’s a real Jim Elliot.
Mickey told Crossway that by their best estimate, the church plant would take 20% of Crossway’s income with them. According to Brent, 55 adults are going with him.
A church with 700+ members loses 55 adults and 20% of their income? I guess these pioneers of the faith won’t be living in tents.
Mickey was kind enough to remind Crossway that there is no mission without sacrifice. We must embrace sacrifice with joy. 1 of the joys of sacrifice is increased giving. Now you’re talking, Mickey. The “plant” will require Crossway to give sacrificially for a few more years. They’re really going to need to give faithfully this year, so “we” can function next year. Don’t forget (how could we, Mickey?), Crossway is sacrificing for the Gospel, for the church being built, and for the lost being saved.
Because, you know-SGM is all about reaching the lost. That’s why they planted in one of the most churched areas on the planet.
Brent picked up where Mickey left off, using the same “reaching a new region”, “open up a whole new region” verbiage. He of course had to commend the church, saying this, referring to Crossway: Christ died in order that there would be a church right here and right now.
I couldn’t make this stuff up if I wanted to.
He then had the nerve to reference 2 Cor 9:8 & 9. He explained the context-Paul was commending the prosperous Corinthian church for giving to the needy Jerusalem church.
He then said this-hold your nose…
“In an analogous way, this text applies to this plant”, which is “one of the largest and strongest church plantings in Sovereign Grace Ministries’ history”
Yeah-the richest members of a rich church move to an affluent, church infested area-that’s just like 2 Cor 9.
To summarize: SGM is bringing the gospel to a whole new region 18 miles away that is full of churches, therefore you’re going to have to give till it hurts.
Did I mention self righteous sanctimonious bull?
You can hear the whole deal here.
You’ll need coffee, a handful of tums, and perhaps a beer.
August 13th, 2008 at 11:17 pm
Ahh, tums and beer! They do work well, I’m with ya on that!
Jim, didn’t you know the Gospel is only for the wealthy, churched, homeschooling family who doesn’t date?
uuuugggh! I could just go on and on… I have to take some time to gather my thoughts and control my furiously typing fingers for this one!
August 13th, 2008 at 11:50 pm
I was a part of the Charlotte church until 1997. I’ve heard it all before. Yuck.
Just to let you know, Brent’s church plant in Kannapolis/Mooresville is a little more interesting than you might think. These two counties, especially the first, were rather run-down, not at all prosperous. The Kannapolis Mill closed quite a few years ago, putting many people out of work. Well, several years back, a Research Team (can’t remember the exact name – some kind of bio thing) decided to buy the old Mill property to build a new facility. Sooooo, when the place is finished, many high income people will be needing to move to the Kannapolis area. My sister, who lives in that town, says that this next year should be seeing alot of this happening.
I don’t know alot about Mooresville, except that it is a bit of a drive from Charlotte. People would live out there to afford better housing. But, I do know about Kannapolis. I would humbly submit that a church plant in that little, old, run-down town on the main highway leading to Charlotte would probably not happen without the Research Facility and all its new employees moving there as well.
Am I judging or being too cynical? Also, if SGM made over eight million dollars in2007, why does the Charlotte church have to support the church plant? These are hard times, and many of the people attending are families with only one parent out in the workforce. It was hard enough to pay for a church building. How is this justified and where in the world did all that money go???!!!
If I’ve gone to far, speak up. This just gets my goat!
August 14th, 2008 at 12:21 am
canary,
Charlotte doesn’t have to support the plant-the plant took 20% of their income (the people with money).
Charlotte is concerned with supporting themselves.
My new friends tell me that Brent’s church is in an affluent area.
August 14th, 2008 at 12:33 am
I’m sorry, Jim, I don’t understand. Something vexes thee? Speak plainly, man!
August 14th, 2008 at 12:39 am
Sorry to beat around the bush :-)
August 14th, 2008 at 1:09 am
Canary, I think you’re right…you should listen to the general interest meetings too….
http://www.crosswaync.org/plant/media/quotes.pdf
http://www.crosswaync.org/plant/
What do you guys think?
August 14th, 2008 at 8:47 am
I’ve been reading with interest this site and have posted on sgmsurvivors a couple times way back when, but this is my first post here.
This kind of thing (SGM church plant) reminds me of how Wal-Mart took over and started building stores in America in the 90s. All these little person-owned stores were doing fine with their business when Wal-Mart came in and “took over.” Wal-Mart was essentially saying “We have everything! Come to us!” What resulted? Those little stores lost a lot of business or eventually closed up shop.
I see SGM doing the same thing here. “Come to us! We’ve got what you need! There’s no need to go anywhere else!”
Also, as a resident very close to this area, I’m very aware of the growth and am interested in seeing what happens.
August 14th, 2008 at 10:32 am
never-welcome! and thanks for posting!
The Wal-Mart analogy is perfect!
August 14th, 2008 at 10:46 am
Jim,
Well, I lived very close to Kannapolis for fourteen years, and went through there alot. Unless they have hidden the affluence somewhere in the background, the town is not prosperous in any sense, but it will be as this new Bio-Research Facility brings in the tons of educated employees to man it. I can only tell you what I’ve witnessed. I can’t see Brent planting a church there in any normal circumstances, unless he is looking to reach lower income people (which would be refreshing, and commendable).
If Kannapolis has become a prosperous place since the two years I’ve been gone from NC, then it happened very quickly, due to the Research place coming in. It was a mill town, where many worked until the mill shut down – then many were out of a job. It was a really bad situation for the townsfolk, who’d depended for many years on the Mill for jobs. If there is affluence, they’ve hidden it pretty well. It could be old money in some wealthy, oldtime families, but they certainly aren’t the majority. This is puzzling to me. Mooresville I know little about.
So, from what you are saying, this will not be a continual two year sucking money from church members’ pockets to support the plant? What a relief. I just feel for them because I was involved in two building funds over the years, and the pressure to give more than you were able was tremendous. It was very burdensome, like having debt to pay.
I apologize if I was too intense on my last post. Sometimes, this money issue really upsets me. Leaders are living off the sheep, and the sheep have no say in how the money is spent. It is an injustice.
August 14th, 2008 at 10:49 am
Dear Tripping,
I’ll try and listen, but I can barely get through those sort of things anymore. Jim, can I borrow your tums?
August 14th, 2008 at 11:01 am
Canary-I reconfirmed this morning with someone who knows more details than I have posted, as I most of my post was taken from the Mickey/Brent message.
I asked-”the plant is in an affluent area, correct?”. Their response was “oh yes”
Crossway is not giving money to the plant, but lost revenue because of it. 55 adults left, and these member’s contributions were 20% of Crossway’s revenue. If 8% of the membership made up 20% of Crossway’s revenue, this is a rich crowd. That’s Crossway’s financial issue-lost revenue.
Their lost revenue is not offset by a loss of overhead, as no staff members left. Brent was on SGM’s payroll.
I’m sorry-I had a tum-fest last night-I’m all out.
August 14th, 2008 at 11:28 am
It doesn’t sound like a church plant at all. The rich folks in an existing congregation just meet closer to home.
August 14th, 2008 at 11:32 am
Greg,
Yep-which makes their “mission” and “Gospel” statements all the more nauseating
August 14th, 2008 at 11:35 am
To their understanding, this new area is “unreached.” Let’s remember that when an SGM church elbows its way into a community, the church makes no attempt to reach out to any other churches in the neighborhood. That’s because the SGM church is the only one with the true gospel.
Therefore, it doesn’t matter how many other churches are already there — in fact, the more churches the better! That means there will be more potential SGM-church members, who can be easily integrated into the new church. None of that difficult, messy baby-Christian discipleship that comes from evangelism.
And regarding motive – going back to the “franchise” motif, what if planting new SGM churches is all about providing pastors with affluent “sales territories” of their own? As new pastors are generated by the PC, it creates situations in which new places have to be found for them, in addition to the existing pastors.
Likely each well-off, SGM-church community can be expected to generate a certain number of church members, who can provide a certain number of dollars per annum. There must be a tipping-point at which the leadership determines it’s time to plant a new church, because they know how much money they need to support their own middle-class lifestyle (which includes a nice church building in a nice, middle-class neighborhood) with comfy offices and a support staff). More newly graduated pastors (not community need for evangelism) produces greater need for more churches, so each pastor has a profitable sales territory that doesn’t overlap with another pastor’s territory.
Adequate “sales revenue” determines location, just as it does for any retail business. Knowing that SGM will not plant a church in an urban setting, or a poor-rural setting, we can only assume locations are chosen because of favorable economic demographics to support middle-class lifestyle with very low potential for conflict or business failure (a fully employed and homogeneous membership will generate steady revenue, with fewer pastoral-counseling needs).
We’re talking about the demographics they know will be able to support the pastors in the manner to which they have become accustomed (see above). I find it very unlikely the location-process includes a pastor having a dream, in which a guy in Dockers and a Polo shirt calls out, “Come bring the gospel – the true gospel of partial-Reformed theology with charismatic distinctives, complete leader-laity split, and no laity input into any decision – over here, where we don’t yet know the burden of indwelling sin that never ends!”
Rather, I believe there’s some sophisticated, strategic business-planning involved – perhaps a savvy SGM staff person or outside consultants. Here’s what I mean: It would be very interesting to do a study of SGM church zip codes, using a marketing tool like Claritas Prizm, and see what specific characteristics these church locations all share. I’m sure there are quite a few commonalities among all the current church locations. I expect one could even predict which areas near existing churches would be targets for future SGM church plants, based on the set of shared demographic markers.
August 14th, 2008 at 11:42 am
Keep-good points!
Don’t forget, Brent’s son got a job from this deal-if that’s what Brent means by “leadership team”.
August 14th, 2008 at 11:49 am
“Don’t forget, Brent’s son got a job from this deal-if that’s what Brent means by “leadership team”.”
SWEET!!!
August 14th, 2008 at 12:00 pm
The Wal-Mart analogy also fits SGM’s church polity–no unions at WalMart and no laity input at SGM.
One of the pastors from England used the analogy of members as the bricks of the church. A pastor from a non-SGM church asked why SGM was taking their bricks. The SGM pastor replied, “If you don’t leave your bricks lying around, I can’t take them.” I–and all the other sheep–laughed at that silly non-SGM pastor and applauded taking the bricks left lying around.
BTW, I’ve been released from CLC–the big back door flew open in my favor without a fuss.
August 14th, 2008 at 12:02 pm
acme-that’s an answer to prayer…
Congratulations!
August 14th, 2008 at 5:18 pm
Jim,
Respectively, I’ve been trying to make a point. So here goes again. Below is a quote from Wikipedia about a Census done in 2000 for Kannapolis, NC:
“The median income for a household in the city was $35,532, and the median income for a family was $42,445. Males had a median income of $30,990 versus $23,277 for females. The per capita income for the city was $17,539. About 7.7% of families and 10.5% of the population were below the poverty line, including 14.6% of those under age 18 and 10.7% of those age 65 or over.”
And here is is a quote from the Irish Creek Community that is building new, very expensive houses in Kannapolis:
“A renaissance is occurring in Kannapolis. Castle & Cooke is creating one of the world’s most advanced centers for biotechnology. When complete, the North Carolina Research Campus will have a 311,000-square-foot Core Lab. UNC-Chapel Hill, NC State, Duke and other universities will operate research facilities here. And this vibrant, small town will be home to scientists from around the world. Outside the laboratories, you’ll find a village with shops and restaurants, theaters, parks, and greenway system. Even Irish Creek is within biking distance.
Why biotechnology?
As the owner of Dole Food Company, Inc., which sells fruits and vegetables, David H. Murdock is committed to the health and welfare of both adults and children around the world. Given biotechnology’s potential to cure disease and improve wellness, Mr. Murdock decided to dedicate the NCRC to biotechnology and nutritional research. And by investing $1.5 billion, he is making his commitment come to life.”
So, my point has been that a new church plant would not be happening in Kannapolis without the boom that is coming with the new Research Center. The economy after the Cannon Mills closed, and even before that, would not be conducive to support a church plant from SGM. Brent sees the boom coming, just like he did years ago when they chose Charlotte to plant a church (my husband and I followed the team there). 17 years ago, Charlotte was the up and coming place to be. Now it is busting out of its seams.
I hope this helps to clarify what I’ve been trying to say.
August 14th, 2008 at 5:27 pm
Jim,
I just submitted a comment that posted, then disappeared. Can you find out what happened? Something flashed up that said it was Spam. Thank you.
August 14th, 2008 at 5:41 pm
Sorry canary-you were stuck in the spam filter.
August 14th, 2008 at 5:43 pm
That’s okay. Hmmm…sounds uncomfortable being stuck in a spam filter. (big smile!).
August 14th, 2008 at 6:02 pm
Testing Avatar…
August 14th, 2008 at 6:38 pm
Canary,
Your research supports my point above. Someone’s doing serious demographic-based market research to decide where to plant new churches – not based on whether an area is “unchurched,” but whether there is a middle- to upper-middle-class group in an area that is large enough to support an SGM church. In the cases you’re citing, SGM exhibits evidence of a desire to skim the cream off the market.
I don’t think this is how Paul and his companions did their apostolic gig; but then, neither are many other things SGM does.
August 14th, 2008 at 7:18 pm
look at that avatar!
August 14th, 2008 at 7:26 pm
As I read these accounts, I am reminded of Marjoe Gortner who was a phony evangelist back in the 70’s. Taking the Gospel and turning it into a business effort……instead of being motivated by compassion and obeying the Holy Spirit, these guys are running a ministry like a marketing firm would advise a business. Also, I liken this in a way to David counting his army….trusting in his own strength and planning instead of walking by faith and purity of motives.
August 14th, 2008 at 7:53 pm
Keepinstep,
You said:
“In the cases you’re citing, SGM exhibits evidence of a desire to skim the cream off the market.”
That is such a creepy way to put it. It gives me shivers. It is so…so…calculated. How did this ever happen? I remember in the early days that there was love involved in our New Testament Church. What happened?
Jim,
My avatar is up due to my tech support (my college age son who is getting his degree in Computer Science – yeah for the smart guys!). Tell Carole that instead of a barking Chihuahua, I found a karate tweety bird (who I believe is a canary!). She’ll understand!
August 14th, 2008 at 8:48 pm
Acme,
The idea of thinking of church members like bricks is highly disturbing to me. I know SGM leaders like to see themselves as transcending the whole megachurch mentality of bigger is better, but this sounds very much in keeping with that idea. And I’m reminded of how much they tend to associate church growth with “God’s blessing” – there’s a logical fallacy for you . . .
Tripping,
I think the fact that the links on the church plant page are largely about the socioeconomic/financial aspects of living in the church plant area is very revealing indeed. I wonder what any of that has to do with Jesus :/
August 14th, 2008 at 10:37 pm
The “Quotes and Slides” PDF (see http://www.crosswaync.org/plant/) is completely about economic growth – no mention at all of the people living there. It’s just assumed that the people are solidly middle-class and affluent, based on the information contained in the slides. Check the text of the 2 slides with info from the Charlotte Observer (which I’d overlooked when writing my long comment above):
“The University area is one of the county’s fastest-growing areas, and Highland Creek’s 13,800 residents and 4,300-plus homes make it one of the state’s largest residential developments.”
“University City’s 28269 zip code reported 830 closings on single family homes in the first six months of the year. It was far ahead of the second hottest-selling area, 28277 in southeast Mecklenburg, which had 618 closings.”
This, along with the other info in those slides, makes it clear that SGM chose this area specifically for its predicted economic growth over the next 20 years, and that zip-code segmentation is part of their selection methodology. So, it’s quite obvious SGM intends to stake its claim at the beginning of this major growth curve. Note that they’re targeting an area with a lot of single-family homes – not an area with a lot of townhouse/condos, or other lower-income housing.
None of this is sinister, but it shows that Crossway did not send out a cross-cultural plant, but one targeting more people “just like us.” And it’s definitely not a lower-income area, but one of solid economic potential and growth. If the area becomes as densely populated as the articles suggest, the new church could split off one or more satellite churches able to support themselves quite nicely, located fairly close to the original. That means a good “inheritance” is possible for one or more pastors in the future – a good selling point for PC grads?
This info is also meant to be reassuring to the church-plant team – letting them know that the homes they buy will appreciate in value, and that there will likely be ample jobs available close to home – uh, close to the future church building.
August 14th, 2008 at 11:04 pm
Don’t forget the abundant number of churches in the area.
The fields are white… with sheep!
August 14th, 2008 at 11:30 pm
keepinstep,
You do realize that the University Area and Highland Creek are part of Charlotte, which is Mecklinberg county? These areas are definitely middle to upper middle class. Kannapolis is further away, past Concord, in Rowan/Cabbarus county. 17 years ago, Charlotte/University area was smaller, with much growth potential, which is why Brent chose that area for a church plant. It has lived up to its potential, that’s for sure. Concord has experienced growth because of Charlotte. Kannapolis could be next, but only because of what’s coming with the Research Center. Sorry to keep beating this horse, but it just won’t die! I lived in the area for 14 years. Kannapolis is another economic boom waiting to happen, but people there have been lower income families, some below the poverty line. There are some newer suburbs near the Kannapolis/Concord line (though they are not for wealthy people). Maybe the church is near there. The Research Center will bring prosperity, and thus a new SGM church. During the meetings for the Charlotte Church years back, Brent noted the growing city of Charlotte and how it was going to grow. Yes, the demographics were important to them. The church grew, but not with new Christians. It was poaching as usual. I suspect that will happen with the Kannapolis church plant, as well. Again, I know little about Mooresville and it could very well be more prosperous, so perhaps the church is nearer there than Kannapolis. I’d have to see a map.
I just wonder when the Lord said, “Go to all nations that are prosperous and can support your church leaders.” Ugh.
August 14th, 2008 at 11:44 pm
Wikipedia on Mooresville, NC (Iredell county), 2000 Census:
“The median income for a household in the town was $42,943, and the median income for a family was $51,011. Males had a median income of $39,524 versus $24,939 for females. The per capita income for the town was $20,549. About 5.6% of familiesAs of the census[1] of 2000, there were 18,823 people, 7,139 households, and 5,082 families residing in the town. and 7.2% of the population were below the poverty line, including 7.5% of those under age 18 and 12.3% of those age 65 or over.”
“As of the census[1] of 2000, there were 18,823 people, 7,139 households, and 5,082 families residing in the town.”
August 15th, 2008 at 7:44 am
@Jim – that is correct!
@canary – Thanks for clarifying that info. Here’s what the first 3 slides of that PDF say about the area north of Charlotte:
1) Lowe’s is building in 3 phases a huge, 170-acre corporate-hqs “campus” for 10,000 employees, off I-77’s Exit 33 (20 miles north of Charlotte).
2) Kannapolis will build a light-rail transit system, planning for 2030 when, according to the mayor of Kannapolis, “ Our economic impact analysis of the NCRC suggests that it could be the most densely developed area in the region, behind only downtown Charlotte and the SouthPark area.”
3) The Highway 3 Corridor will become an area of major economic growth. Says the mayor: “In my opinion, in the next 20 years this corridor is going to become a major economic engine for our county. Think about it – on one end will be the NCRC (North Carolina Research Center) and on the other will be Lowe’s corporate headquarters. Right now is the time to plan for that corridor, while we’re still ahead of the development curve.” [my emphasis]
August 15th, 2008 at 10:01 am
Looks like Brent’s son has a bright future ahead of him.
August 15th, 2008 at 11:01 am
Yeah – what was that quote from an SGM pastor, to the effect that “indwelling sin is my job security?” Just another reason for SGM never to move away from a doctrinal stance that focuses on sin, rather than on sanctification (that results in laity actually being equipped for the work of ministry – and then doing that ministry, more and more on their own and with greater success).
In MLM empires, customers need to keep coming back for product replenishment – here too. Their goal is not to make mature “little Christs,” but people continually dependent on pastors for teaching about indwelling sin (not Christ glorified and seated at the right hand of power).
But you knew that….
August 15th, 2008 at 11:23 am
keepinstep,
“…that results in laity actually being equipped for the work of ministry – and then doing that ministry, more and more on their own and with greater success).”
I like you! You make some great statements that are so right on! Most of us were kept on such short leashes when it came to using our gifts that you couldn’t even have a prayer meeting in your home without “oversight”.
I didn’t know about the Lowes Campus coming in. That is amazing, and a great boon for Charlotte. I guess we can all agree that the church plant did its homework, saw an opportunity, and seized it. The people who have lived in Kannapolis for decades won’t recognize their own town after, say, ten years. I wonder what will happen to the low-income folks there? Perhaps the Research Center will give them jobs. Since Cannon Mills shut down it’s been very hard for the community.
August 15th, 2008 at 6:49 pm
Hi all, my first post here – have been reading survivors for a month or so.
I was in the SG church in south Denver (yah, that one…..) for several years. When the history of the church plant (which happened in 1998 or 99) was talked about, it sounded like there was extensive analysis as to the areas that would be high-growth areas. So in Denver, Broomfield (north) and Highlands Ranch (south) were selected. No question these are both affluent areas. ALL the planter people for the south church moved to HR.
So, the south Denver church started at a hotel near a very very affluent area, then a lease space in Littleton (around 10 miles from the original Highlands Ranch area, then to lease space in Aurora, which is not nearly as affluent as HR, then soon to a school (a downsize), again in Aurora.
The Broomfield/Westminster church is doing OK.
The best laid plans……..
August 15th, 2008 at 8:35 pm
Hi where is-
Welcome!
August 16th, 2008 at 3:29 am
Sovereign Grace Mart, Inc.
SG Greeter: Hi welcome to Sovereign Grace Mart, can I help you?
Potential Church member: Why yes-we’ve come today to find out more about your church?
SG Greeter: Well I believe it’s Providential that you’ve come, you see, we’re a local church. And not just any local church, we’re affiliated.
PCM: Uh, ok-you’re affiliated. You mean to a denomination or something?
SGG: Oh no-we’re not a denomination. We’re a family of churches-but not just any churches, no, we have really smart guys who right their own books, songs, and tell funny jokes-their our beloved leaders. They have been such a means of grace for me and my family. But despite how much we really love each other and being together-we’re not afraid to preach, Sound doctrine. Doctrine that proclaims man’s sin and the propitiation of the Saviour, and the ever encompassing importance of involvement in -The local church.
PCM: Uh-cool. What was that word? Propulsion of the saviour-oh, never mind about that. We did like the church service..
SGG: You mean the meeTing?
PCM: Ahh-yeah-the meeting. Anyway we were wondering if there was any more info we can take with us while we consider our possible involvement here. Do you have any info on the youth group? I travel during the week(I sell computer software) and my wife work’s as a Psycho-therapist for a half way home for teens addicted to drugs. Anyway, it’s very important that our kid’s feel involved and connected too.
SGG: Did you say you’re a traveling salesman in the computer field?
PCM: Why-yes.
SGG: That must make a lot of money-why are you forcing you’re wife to work and neglecting your children?
PCM: I beg your pardon?
SGG: Common fella-it’s just that only pansies make their wives work-you’ll be sorry ya know. As CJ always says-time to be a man’s man -like him.
PCM: Um-my wife works because she loves it and she’s great at helping troubled teens.
SGG: Well you know, that they wouldn’t be so troubled if they were a part of a local church. Can I make an observation? Well, I know you’re new and it’s your first time here-and I’ve been in your place too-so it just seems to me that unless you get deeply involved (and I mean involved with your time AND your money) that your family is in deep do-do -unless you become a part of this church. Just my humble observation-I hope that it serves you well.
PCM: Uh-I-uh_i think I need to go-thanks for the-uh-observation. Bye (Quickly runs out to his car)
SGG: Well thanks for visiting Sovereign Grace Mart-remember our motto: We’ll make you feel terrible about yourself-but you’ll feel that you’re better than everyone else.
Disclaimer: The above account was purely fictional any resemblance to the truth is based on over 10 years experience with churches similar to the fictional one described in the preceding conversation.
August 16th, 2008 at 8:56 am
musicman -
That is spot on. I am especially nodding my head to this part:
PCM: Um-my wife works because she loves it and she’s great at helping troubled teens.
SGG: Well you know, that they wouldn’t be so troubled if they were a part of a local church.
I’ve been thinking, given how harshly SGM churches treat members who do not conform to their cultural standards in what are ultimately minor ways, what would an SGM church do with a family that was really struggling? We already know how unhelpful they can be in situations where the wife is the primary or only breadwinner for her family, for one reason or another. How would they deal with a family where the wife/mom is physically unable to perform all the duties they expect of a “biblical woman?” How about a new (or long-time!) Christian struggling with drug addiction or alcoholism – especially if it were a woman or a child? How about a church member who has schizophrenia or bipolar disorder – again, especially if it were a woman or a child?
At best I think an SGM church wouldn’t have the slightest idea how to care for people or families in these situations. At worst I think they would tell these folks their problems exist because they aren’t trusting God enough, and possible even shun them as members directly or indirectly. It is not impossible for me to imagine a man in leadership being asked to step down or even leave his SGM church because his wife or child is suffering from addiction or mentally ill. You have to keep your house in order, you know.
August 16th, 2008 at 9:06 am
Musicman said,
“Well thanks for visiting Sovereign Grace Mart-remember our motto: We’ll make you feel terrible about yourself-but you’ll feel that you’re better than everyone else.”
LOL LOL LOL!!! How do they DO that!?
August 16th, 2008 at 12:23 pm
MM,
Entirely funny! I wonder how many members SGM would have if they’d say the truth about themselves right up front?
1. When you join us, you are commanded by scripture to pay us your tithe. You have no say in where the money goes, or what decisions we make for the body. If we decide to build a building or fund a church plant, you will have to sacrifice more.
2. When you join, you are to give us your complete obedience and trust. No free-thinkers will make it in our church.
3. Pastors here stand in the very stead of God. So, they are more able to make right decisions for your life.
4. If you have teens, you will be expected to attend all youth meetings with them. We don’t let them roam around alone in this church.
5. God expects you to obey us completely. Did I mention that?
6. YOu will be expected to attend all meeTings that we hold. If you have suffered severe illness or death, we will release you from attendance.
7. You are expected to tithe. Have I said that? Be faithful, because we keep track. We’re watching you.
8. Your wife will not be allowed to work outside of her home unless she has her household completely in order (linen closets must be neat, no junk drawers allowed). She should be home schooling your children, so if that all works out, then maybe she can work outside the home. Of course, we have yet to see a woman meet our high standards of wife and mother and homemaker and laundress and cook and kitchen worker and baby maker and cookie baker and don’t forget the meals she has to prepare for anyone who has a baby and….well, basically we believe a wife has to keep herself in the home. Oh, and she has to make herself beautiful for when you come home from work. She has to have the children quiet, and slippers at hand, preferably in her teeth.
Your wife is a brain surgeon? Sorry, no exceptions allowed.
I’m sure everyone could think of add-ons to this. Would people join if they got all the “doctrine” up front, instead of little bits at a time?
August 16th, 2008 at 1:37 pm
Canary
Don’t forget that we are a courtship church. No dating is allowed (but we aren’t a courtship church). Oops we are but just won’t go out and say that.
Of course this isn’t something that I hear they come out and tell people. It is more something they push on after they have hooked in a new member.
August 16th, 2008 at 2:44 pm
Steve20,
Oh, you’re right! The good ‘ole courtship model! We’ll make that one #9. Let’s see…
9. Though we are not a courtship model church, we strongly suggest that your older unmarried offspring (16 – 50) have someone oversee their relationship (chaperone), that the couple only get romantic if they intend to marry (we decide if God has called the two together), and that the couple only go out with groups of people (sin, you know, is so much stronger than the grace of God to keep you). But if you are looking for a courtship church, I know one that is down the road a ways.
I can joke about this one because I’ve been through the ringer recently with the courtship thing. Parents who seek to control rather than guide are going to loose their kids, eventually.
August 16th, 2008 at 2:56 pm
MM – that is GREAT, rofl!
August 16th, 2008 at 4:43 pm
I have to be honest-I thought many of these things in my mind (or worse yet-I actually said them to somebody) when I attended SG. Shame on me
.
August 16th, 2008 at 6:27 pm
very interesting posts about the Mooresville church. My extended family lives in South Carolina, so we drive through Kannapolis, Concord and the University City Area at least once year and we usually this area as stopover during our drive. So we are very familiar with it and, consequently, having seen this area year over year, there is no doubt that it is an affluent, growing area. Anybody who says that planting a church in that area is making a sacrifice or who is so arrogant as to compare churching planing in the Charlotte, N.C suburbs or exhurbs to the work of Jim Elliott is surely deceived.
August 16th, 2008 at 6:37 pm
See this: There are seven PCA churches in charlotte and three in the Moorsville area. With ten explicitly reformed congregations in the area, what exactly is the compelling reason for SGM to plant another “reformed” church?
Hope Community Church
Charlotte
NC
704-521-1033
hope-community@hope-community.net
http://www.hope-community.net
Central Carolina
Rev. Mark E. Upton
Korean Presbyterian
Church of Charlotte
Charlotte
NC
-
-
-
Korean Southeastern
-
Sovereign Grace Presbyterian Church
Charlotte
NC
704-553-9600
info@sovereigngrace.org
http://www.sovereigngrace.org
Central Carolina
Rev. William Barcley
Faith Presbyterian Church
Charlotte
NC
704-375-3501
-
-
Central Carolina
Rev. B. David Gullett
Prosperity Presbyterian Church
Charlotte
NC
704-875-1182
prospca@juno.com
http://www.prosperitychurch.org
Central Carolina
Rev. William Henry Laun
Stone Bridge Church Community
Charlotte
NC
704-549-8272
tgriggs@stonebridgecharlotte.com
http://www.stonebridgecharlotte.com
Central Carolina
Rev. Richard T. Harper
Uptown Church, PCA
Charlotte
NC
704-375-7355
uptownchurch@uptownchurch.org
http://www.uptownchurch.org
Central Carolina
Rev. Thomas D. Hawkes
August 17th, 2008 at 12:52 am
W-I-P,
You said, “How about a new (or long-time!) Christian struggling with drug addiction or alcoholism – especially if it were a woman or a child? How about a church member who has schizophrenia or bipolar disorder – again, especially if it were a woman or a child?”
Um, if I happen to know of people in these situations I’m sure we would all agree I should not say too much that would reveal their identity. People like this definitely do not need public humiliation on top of other problems. I will say that they need to be served, loved, encouraged, and corrected in a very time-consuming, committed way. Church leaders do not seem to have the time for this commitment, and people in need often are too afraid, angry, or ashamed to go to leaders. I pray for and try to serve the mentally ill, the addicted, and the misfits in the ways I can. I also pray for and try to communicate to leadership about the importance of caring for these suffering people. Ultimately, I trust God to help them.
In other words I should pray for AND work with the weak.
August 17th, 2008 at 9:21 am
SGMSingle,
Just to be clear I wasn’t asking for info on how SGM has handled such situations. I totally agree that anyone in such situations deserves privacy (and prayer and concrete support, as you say)! My questions were more hypothetical; my point was that given the intense pressure (that I witnessed and experienced, at least) to be perfectly conformed on very minor issues, it seems to me that SGM would be a very difficult place for families struggling with addiction or mental illness to get the help and support they need. I know I have never been able to talk to my parents or anyone else in SGM about my relatively minor issues with occasional depression.
August 17th, 2008 at 10:11 am
SGMsingle was either quoting what he heard from me (we’ve talked), or what he heard first hand within SGM-I don’t recall which.
Early on in cgl training we were taught: “work with the strong, pray for the weak”. This fits perfectly with SGM’s “leader duplication” model, but bears little resemblance to the heart of Christ.
August 17th, 2008 at 1:14 pm
In my own experience, SGM is an INCREDIBLY difficult place for families struggling with mental illness (and other brain-based issues) to get the help and support they need. My son didn’t need more spankings; he needed professional care (including meds) and accommodations. I didn’t need more teaching, accountability sessions, and correction to deal with my chronic depression and anxiety; I needed professional care, real friends, and real help.
August 17th, 2008 at 3:00 pm
1 Cor. 9:22: “To the weak I have become weak, that I might win the weak…”
August 17th, 2008 at 4:30 pm
Hi, everybody…
First time commenter here.
work-in-progress brings up some interesting hypothetical situations which I happen to know are not so hypothetical.
As the moderator of that other SGM site, I’ve talked extensively via email with several ladies who have had one form of mental illness or another…and some of them had significant physical disabilities as well. At least a couple of these ladies suffered from some pretty severe stuff, where they REALLY needed professional help and medication.
But from the stories they shared, they got cut little slack by SGM leadership in terms of the perfection that was expected of them. They were still required to attend the majority of meetings, just like everyone else. If they asked for help, they were more often than not told that they needed to “buck up” and make the best of their situation…quit complaining…rejoice instead of look at the dark side…take small steps like clean out a junk drawer, and they’d soon be on the way to tackling a whole messy, chaotic household!
Such advice could be helpful for someone struggling with a minor case of “the blahs.” But if someone is mired in the darkest depths of depression, SGM seems to have little to offer that person that could help, and MUCH that could harm them.
More than anything else, it has been these stories, these ladies, who have fueled the fire of my indignation toward SGM’s system. SGM can be a downright brutal experience for someone – particularly a woman – who struggles with chronic illness or mental health issues.
August 17th, 2008 at 4:33 pm
Welcome “First-time-commenter-Kris-from-that-other-SGM-site”! Glad to see you “sharin’ the love” over here at The Refuge!
August 17th, 2008 at 5:06 pm
Hey Kris,
I love the discussion on “that other site” about the handling of women with PPD. It is so true that some of these women NEED medical help. Keep sharing the good stuff.
About the women who are too sick to keep up with what’s expected of them, I quote myself (modestly) from a few posts above:
“6. YOu will be expected to attend all meeTings that we hold. If you have suffered severe illness or death, we will release you from attendance.”
I was wrong. Some churches won’t even release you for sickness.
Healthy women had a hard enough time trying to “imitate” the leaders’ wives. I could never keep up. How much more difficult for women with any sort of mental or physical illness. Dear Lord, set these poor women free!
August 17th, 2008 at 5:12 pm
Kris-are you slummin’ ?
Just kidding-glad to see you here
August 17th, 2008 at 5:19 pm
“That other site” is sgmsurvivors.com
I recommend it.
August 17th, 2008 at 8:30 pm
Kris -
Somehow I am not surprised that SGM churches have treated struggling families and women poorly. So sad.
Jim, re: “Work with the strong, pray for the weak.” I’m stunned (though I probably shouldn’t be) that they actually teach this explicitly to their leaders! As you say this is polar opposite of how Jesus conducted his ministry: “”It is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but those who are sick.” (Matt. 9:12)
August 18th, 2008 at 11:51 am
When we were homegroup leaders, there was a particular young lady who was about to get married in our group. As it turns out, she confided to the pastor of the church that she had been abused sometime in her past. The pastor referred her to ME, (ME!) her homegroup leader’s wife, to counsel her through this issue before her marriage. I was in my 20’s with absolutely NO idea how to make sure her issues were resolved and would not be brought into her marriage. Why didn’t HE counsel her? Or his wife? Or better yet, a professional Christian counselor who knew what they were doing? Why did I go along with it? I had NOTHING to offer her, except my prayers and support.
The same was true of a couple of other women with serious issues that floated through our homegroup. I was not equipped to help them, yet I was expected to. There were no other options. One of them ended up in a divorce. Both of them left the church and I have no knowledge of their well-being. I realize that they might have ended up divorcing and leaving even if I knew what I was doing and had been able to give them sound counsel, but … maybe not. I should never have been put in that position. I was not qualified, even if the pastor, by putting my husband and I in the position of homegroup leaders, felt that I was. AHHH!
I always felt that those troubled women were not really wanted as part of our PDI church. I’m sure they felt it too. As homegroup leaders, there was always more emphasis on investing in those who could be raised up as future leaders rather than the down and outers.
August 18th, 2008 at 12:40 pm
Gracie,
That just confirms what Jim said he was taught – to help the strong and pray for the weak. I saw that happening for years, but now I hear it spoken. That is not in my bible.
Poor Gracie. That must have been a difficult time. I have learned that you have a loving heart. How it must have frustrated you to be placed in such an impossible position! I think you and I would agree that we would not hesitate to tell someone to get Christian counseling if we saw the need. Live and learn! (smiley face with thumbs up!).
August 18th, 2008 at 1:57 pm
And this is why it is good to seemingly tell the same stories over and over again. The Lord keeps bringing pieces of the puzzle together to help us in our understanding of what happened to us many years ago and this in turn will help us to help others. I am seeing more and more that some things that I attributed to something local in my church, or maybe something that I was doing wrong wasn’t what was going on at all.
August 18th, 2008 at 2:29 pm
True, Ellie. Too true. And as we tell our stories, we can also offer guidance on how to discover a deep relationship with the Lord, where the Holy Spirit, our Comforter, is allowed to be heard. Once people understand this, they can get on fine, overcoming the hurts and confusion suffered under overstepping church rule. Hey, we can call that OCR. I have suffered from OCR, but have been set free! Hee-hee!
August 18th, 2008 at 4:55 pm
Ellie, you said: And this is why it is good to seemingly tell the same stories over and over again. The Lord keeps bringing pieces of the puzzle together to help us in our understanding of what happened to us many years ago and this in turn will help us to help others. I am seeing more and more that some things that I attributed to something local in my church, or maybe something that I was doing wrong wasn’t what was going on at all.
Thank you for that. It really encourages me, because I have been really dreading reading story after story on here, it felt like salt in the wounds…I posted about it elsewhere on here. Anyway, I am encouraged to know that there can be a sense of ongoing healing from hearing stories, in that the Lord is working in long-forgotten memories and bringing truth and clarification. I’m so grateful for that!
My concern was just that too much focus on the stories and comparing notes and not enough pointing to Jesus results in one bunch of bitter people. And I know none if us wants that! You and Grace and Canary have always struck me as healed, and set free. But I see that the work is ongoing, not that you aren’t healed, but there is always a deeper work he wants to do – because He loves us so much!
Thanks for reminding me of that!
August 18th, 2008 at 6:05 pm
Hey Concerned,
As I stated earlier, I totally understand the need to move on from SGM. There are those I know who are recent departees (not quite as recent as you) who could add much to our discussion in terms of inside information, but who have begun a new life and don’t wish to look back. I truly believe that is God’s will for them. Not everyone is called to what Jim and Carole are doing.
I’m not sure exactly what God is doing in me/with me here. My best guess – it is part of His Redemption for the pain we went through all those years ago. If I can share an experience or a prayer or an encouragement, however small, that helps someone in the same predicament I was once in to not feel alone or crazy, then I am blessed. That is enough. Sure, I hope and pray for reform within SGM, but my heart is more for the wounded and confused.
I do feel healed. I have had several opportunities over the last several years to interact with SGMers at one of their churches fairly closely and these interactions did not raise even a bleep in my spirit on a personal level. Truly. There is no more fear, no more confusion, no more pain. I believe, in regard to SGM, anything that can be shaken has been shaken within me. Man, if I wasn’t healed after 20 years, that would be depressing. It would also be extremely discouraging to those who are just beginning their exit from SGM. There is a light at the end of the tunnel! There is hope, restoration, wholeness and even JOY post-SGM. Maybe I don’t emphasize that often enough.
August 18th, 2008 at 9:28 pm
Right on, Gracie!
August 19th, 2008 at 6:52 pm
I’ve just found all of these “I survived a SGM Church” sites. ::rolls eyes:: For the LOVE people…
Stop whining about how other people have sinned against you. It happens! Did you all forget that we are all sinners? Did that escape from your memory? Did you forget that sin is deceitful and that no one is exempt? Not even SGM leaders! For crying out loud, this entire site is one giant, “keeping records of wrong” all the while patting each other on the back saying, “it’s ok, you’re safe now from the evil clutches of SGM” Really folks? What are you trying to prove? That SGM had issues with sin? Have you been living under a rock for the past 20 years?! If anything, SGM has an EXCELLENT view of the doctrines of sin and reconcilliation, my word, you got burned or were sinned against?!? You shouldn’t have been surprised by this. And you sure as heaven shouldn’t be documenting everything and slandering Christs Bride in this manner. How much more of a ridiculously dangerous make-you-feel-good practice could you choose?
How did the very idea of this site get off the ground… (”I know, lets blog publicaly about our gripes, offenses and complaints against an entire movement”) Unbelievable. Did you think God sleeps or doesn’t see when His children are sinned against? Or maybe perhaps should you truly believe in the soveriegnty of God, you would’ve seen this as an opportunity to trust in God and his plan. God orchestrated everything that happened to you so that YOU could learn something about Himself… It’s so sad that you’ve completely missed the lesson here, and jumped to what is gossip, slander, lying, and division… all of which are detestable to God. God revealed an attribute of Himself to you that you could actually understand with human understanding and you mock His bride and sling mud at her face in return. If this is your response to being sinned against (i.e. blogging your offense to the world) no wonder you had a probelem with SGM. The practice of publicaly slandering people on the internet is not a SGM practice nor is it a Biblical one. Oh and the process of repeating you stories over and over to each other has clearly bred a scary amount of bitterness and slander. Remember that we are all going to be held accountable for the things that we say… Blogging is not discluded is that. Tread Lightly.
August 19th, 2008 at 6:56 pm
Oh boy! Another “gossip, slander, lying, division, mud-slinging” accusation…
(I’m sure it’s all “in love” though… I can tell from Bauer’s “tone)
Bauer, you may want to pull out a dictionary (or, even better… a Bible!) and look up the definitions of those words, my friend…
August 19th, 2008 at 7:08 pm
Golly, Bauer, I don’t think any of us have ever thought before about anything you’ve brought up! Especially this: “God orchestrated everything that happened to you so that YOU could learn something about Himself…”
But my favorite is this: “…should you truly believe in the soveriegnty [sic] of God, you would’ve seen this as an opportunity to trust in God and his plan.”
If Sovereign Grace Ministries truly believed in the sovereignty of God as you describe, they would never have felt it necessary to force anyone to leave their churches, but would simply have trusted in God to work everything out. In the real world, however, SGM pastors don’t regard members’ disagreement with doctrine or praxis as “an opportunity to trust in God and his plan,” but as an opportunity to ask those people to leave.
August 19th, 2008 at 7:09 pm
That’s great Bauer. Nice intro. Great to meet you.
“How did the very idea of this site get off the ground…”
Your question has been answered. Start here.
August 19th, 2008 at 7:43 pm
Sheesh, another drive-by poster who hasn’t bothered to read the whole site. He sounds a little bitter, don’t ya think? (Oh, wait a minute – WE’RE the bitter ones!) That was sure a gun-load he sprayed on us. But, it’s all good. Gives people a chance to hear from the horse’s mouth just what we’ve been talking about all along. No love in Bauer’s post.
Bauer,
Um…welcome…uh…to the blog…I think. I’m going to go find my kevlar.
August 19th, 2008 at 7:43 pm
Bauer:
Please do not deafen your ears to the testimonies here. And using your words, “tread lightly.”
“The practice of publicaly slandering people on the internet is not a SGM practice nor is it a Biblical one.” I think your post would fall dangerously close to this category.
“Did you think God sleeps or doesn’t see when His children are sinned against?” No… and that’s the whole point, and it’s the reason websites like this exist.
Bauer, your statements line by line read like a description of the spirit of your post, which makes what you just posted implode on itself.
My exhortation to you is to not smear the name of an organization I’m affiliated with any further by coming in and dropping a bomb like this.
…pk
August 19th, 2008 at 7:55 pm
Gladly. Heck, lets look em all up from both.
“On December 9th, these heroes of the faith conducted a thinly veiled appeal for money, wrapped in all of the usual, out of context, disingenuous, manipulative crap. The Word of God is certainly not crap, but these men treat it as such.”
“Psalm 15:3and has no slander on his tongue, who does his neighbor no wrong and casts no slur on his fellowman,”
“Slander- 1. Defamation; calumny, 2- a malicious, false and defamatory statement or report.”
________________________
“Yeah-the richest members of a rich church move to an affluent, church infested area-that’s just like 2 Cor 9.”
“Proverbs 16:28 A perverse man stirs up dissension, and a gossip separates close friends.”
Gossip, 1- idle talk or rumor, esp about the private affairs of others.”
Sarcastic, 1- A harsh or bitter derision or irony, 2- a sharply ironical taunt, sneering or cutting remark.
______________________________
“That means I just endured Mickey and Brent, all in one shot. I’m nauseous.”
“Romans 16:17-18 I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them. For such people are not serving our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the minds of naive people.”
_________________________________
You use sarcastic, biting, gossiping, slanderous language toward leaders of the church. You get this sort of comment a lot? I would imagine so… Since when is this sort of behavior justified? If you sit there and nitpick about the manner by which people bring things to you and pull the whole, “well I can’t take what you are saying because you didn’t bring it to me in perfection and without sin” then how is anyone to say anything contrary to what you say? You created the perfect forum in which you can gripe without accountability. And the perfect excuse to not listen when someone tries. No experience, however bad, gives any person the right to slander the church (hello… Christ’s Bride) in this manner.
Do you truly believe that this site is NOT slanderous? Honestly?! I cannot understand how anyone could view this as OK…. though I’m sure it feels really good.
But say I get to know all your personal lives and then I blog about all of your personal problems and sin: (when you yell at your kids, when you are impatient with your wife, when you struggle with temptation) all publicly because I want to make sure everyone on the internet knows what horrible people you are and that they should steer clear of you. Now that seems pretty obvious right?? That would be wrong.
Now lets say you sin against me….
Would it still be wrong? Of course it is! Do I have the right to slander you? No, I do not.
And yet this site is ok and God glorifying?
I’m confused….. Someone please explain it, don’t direct me to a different page… Explain it…. clear terms. Clear cut… Answer this question: “I know that God is glorified in this website and the things I’ve posted because: _______”
“The things posted on this blog are ok because:______”
“I can say whatever I want about the church because:_______”
August 19th, 2008 at 8:03 pm
Oh no, don’t hear what I’m not saying. I’m not bitter. It’s just funny….
“My exhortation to you is to not smear the name of an organization I’m affiliated with…”
….and this site is doing what to SGM exactly?
Are there any sites from SGM that smear your name?
I was told that people would respond this way…. Mea culpa, I should’ve known better. I’ll take my leave and no longer smear your organization…. Will you do the same for mine?? (which btw was the whole point of my posts…. should I start to do the same thing you’re doing, would it be construed as OK and right) clearly it wasn’t. Which is my whole point.
August 19th, 2008 at 8:06 pm
… as i said before… “I feel the love just oozing from Bauer’s comments!”
You’re pretty arrogant and demanding, Bauer. It might be a good idea to get off of your high horse if you really want your questions answered… which, by the way, I don’t think you honestly do. You seem to be just a drive by spewing your venom.
Have some more kool aid…
August 19th, 2008 at 8:13 pm
Bauer,
I directed you to another post that answered a lot of your questions. I’m sorry that you don’t have the time to read them.
SGM doesn’t have a website that slanders me that I’m aware of. SGM leaders either whisper untruths or publicly slander via “family meetings”.
I could point you to examples on this site, but you seem to have no interest.
BTW, your litany of Scripture references apply to SGM as well.
August 19th, 2008 at 8:14 pm
Nevermind. You are right. Those posts were not out of love. It’s hard when someone says unkind things about a church that you love. I’m not used to people saying such things. Forgive me for my arrogance. I wasn’t concerned for your soul primarily I was wanting to show you the error of your ways. And that is the Spirit’s work, not mine. Don’t worry, I won’t post anymore or start up an Anti-anti-SGM site.
August 19th, 2008 at 8:14 pm
Bauer, you’ve come in and fallen on your own grenade.
The organization I am affiliated with is Sovereign Grace Ministries.
I’m off to prayer now, brother, but we can dialogue later if you want.
…pk
August 19th, 2008 at 8:17 pm
bauer-so today is your drive-by day?
Do you plan a hit and run on all of the anti SGM sites?
You and I can have an intelligent, respectful conversation here.
August 19th, 2008 at 8:22 pm
BTW-survivors is that way>
I look forward to your posts there, having read your statements on the spiritual tyranny site today.
August 19th, 2008 at 9:00 pm
You know, I remember when I was one of those people who believed nothing wrong of PDI, and would defend it completely. I was narrowminded, controlled, not allowed to think for myself. I would never have been able to hold a sound discussion with someone who criticized my beloved church. Bauer cannot either. He is all emotion, not rationality. He sees only what he wants to see, from the PDI/SGM glasses he still wears.
Jim, I hope you can hold a discussion with him, but I doubt it. He doesn’t, apparently, think for himself. Been there, done that, and I have the T-shirt somewhere…
August 19th, 2008 at 9:36 pm
Ut oh, Jim. Looks like your post on SGM’s new Kannapolis/Mooresville franchise has made somebody uncomfortable…
August 19th, 2008 at 10:10 pm
Hi Bauer -
Why don’t you come over for a drive by on our site too? I just love stuff like this…
August 19th, 2008 at 10:17 pm
Actually, Ellie, I think Bauer may be from the SGM-Pasadena franchise. I found his Xanga page.
August 19th, 2008 at 10:51 pm
Bauer,
I too loved my church. I would have defended it venomously as well. Why? Because my church taught me that it was the superior model, that we were the ones doing Christianity right. It taught me that my leaders could actually hear God for me and so I reverenced and obeyed them. It taught me that with them I had spiritual covering and protection, that they would keep me from falling into sin. It taught me that I was in the greatest place on earth. I felt like I had found the church I would serve in for all my days.
Then, they turned me out. They took my church away from me. They made me feel that God was with them and opposing me. Because I had believed so fully in everything my church taught, I was devastated and nearly destroyed. (You can read my whole story under ”Your Story” if you care to take the time.)
But you know what Bauer? They were wrong in what they taught and what they did to me. And they are wrong in what they continue to do to others in the same manner. The history that makes up the accounts on this blog goes back 20 years or more. And still the abuse continues. Most, if not all of us, have gone to them personally and privately, over and over, and we have received remarkably similar treatment from leaders all around the country. Something is amiss.
I was so despairing at first, that my faith was in jeopardy. I will not sit back, I cannot sit back and say nothing when I KNOW there are others in the same position. At the risk of offending you and others like you, we reach out to the abused that have been tossed aside by SGM lest they despair and turn from the Lord.
Occasionally we show anger or disgust or even sarcasm. We are after all human. But do not use that as an excuse to write off every story and every comment. We have valid concerns, real stories, and some of us have heard the worst stories in private emails from folks too frightened to post publically. Do you care? Does that concern you at all? The church I loved, the church you love has left a wake of broken lives. You will have to face that and deal with it. Calling it all gossip and slander is not good enough.
August 19th, 2008 at 11:10 pm
Hey you guys, I know I’m a broken record. Sorry for posting such similar comments. I’m a simple girl and this is what is on my heart.
August 19th, 2008 at 11:14 pm
Gracie… you are much deeper than you think you are!
You always say the right thing at just the right time! Maybe you are hearing from Someone Who wants to speak to all of us? 
Thanks for sharing your heart!
August 19th, 2008 at 11:21 pm
I’m thinking back to the original purpose of Jim’s post, in which he talked about a new church plant. I’m wondering how SGM, these days, goes about explaining to prospective members – most of whom are already Christians in other churches – that when they join an SGM church, they will not have very limited information about what goes on in the church, and will not have any decision-making input whatsoever.
SGM churches have no (non-pastoral) elder boards, finance or other committees with authority to investigate pastoral activities, spending or decisions – much less to hire or fire pastors. How does SGM “spin” this reality into a selling-point, in a time when Americans (as “consumers”) are demanding more transparency from corporations and government? Does anyone have text from SGM marketing materials discussing church leadership and authority structure?
August 19th, 2008 at 11:25 pm
“Occasionally we show anger or disgust or even sarcasm.”
Yep. Just like Jesus….remember Him, Bauer?
He got kinda radical about hypocrisy. And causing little ones to stumble…ya know? …millstones and all that….
August 19th, 2008 at 11:40 pm
Keep-just Harvey’s polity statement.
Don’t forget, SGM’s “pluality of elders” keeps Sr pastors from autocracy.
uh huh…
August 20th, 2008 at 12:50 am
Guy,
Love the new look!
Gracie,
You say the right things at the right time! Keep it up.
August 20th, 2008 at 10:39 am
You know, this is so sad. You guys are like Inigo Montoya or Javert from Les Miserables – dedicating your lives to afflicting those you perceive as evildoers. Aren’t Christians supposed to trust God to avenge them? If the people in this ministry are as corrupt and duplicitous and abusive as you say, shouldn’t you just trust God to destroy it instead of trying to do it yourself?
I have been perusing this site for a few days, reading the posts and stories. If what I’ve read about your experiences comprises “abuse” then words have no meaning. Move on, people. You have freed yourselves from this ministry. Enjoy your freedom.
August 20th, 2008 at 11:14 am
Om-no vengeance in my heart.
Exposure is Biblical, particularly if all other means have been exhausted.
August 20th, 2008 at 11:23 am
Of course there’s vengeance in your heart. You clearly want to “get” these people.
August 20th, 2008 at 11:37 am
Ombud:
A word of caution or advice: I am wondering if you are aware just how condescending and uninformed your post comes off as being. If “perusing” means skimming, that I can understand… absorbing what you want to and beginning posts with “You know, this is so sad…” really endears folks to your humble exhortation. You may want to try a different approach, unless there is a cheap form of trusting God that everyone will automatically warm up to that entrance.
I think people on this site trust God the same way Joshua trusted God… even when God brought Jericho’s walls down, Joshua’s army was not absent. David trusted God, and yet buried a stone in Goliath’s forehead with several stones to spare. Did the army then say “Excellent… we’ll go home now, and wait for a lightning bolt to zap the rest of the Philistines.” Please tell me how trusting God with inaction is replete through scripture? Was Paul’s prison stays absent of prayer and his Epistles absent of naming names of those -even in the church- he regarded as dangerous?
This site is a long, long way from slinging stones and hunting down Amalekites into extinction… I think I can safely say that folks here trust God in ways I’ve never known before, and I hope to learn by their example.
Is part of “testing all things and holding fast to that which is true” remaining silent, and not defending those who have been wounded? Do folks here not respond in being used by God to maybe help administer a healing balm?
I’d also like to know how not sharing stories here will make SGM aware of what’s going on? Do we stay in a dome of silence? Or, for the millionth time will you retort with scriptures about slander and gossip ignoring the full scope of scripture which commands us to root out the very things described here?
Can you tell me what abuse is without copying and pasting Webster? Is a pastor telling a victim of physical abuse “Isn’t it good to know you’re still doing better than you deserve?” not abuse? If it isn’t, please post a video link to that, because I would personally like to see it said with a straight face. Would even a Reformer really say that in good conscience without extending the healing that comes through the majesty of Christ? If you haven’t found that story -among dozens- then you’ve indeed been perusing, skimming, and not reading.
I encourage you to read, or simply ”enjoy your freedom” from this site. Either way, I pray God’s blessings and mercy on you.
Take care,
…pk
August 20th, 2008 at 11:40 am
Ombud,
the right question is not “what is in xy’y heart?”.
We can not know.
The right question is: “what must have been, and is, going on, for this blog and sgm-survivors to come into being as they did?”
If it was just one angry man on a mission to “get” someone, I would understand what you are saying. But there seems to be much more going on than that. To those who don’t share the experiences of Jim and others, this blog and others are not so much an indicator for the temperament of those who run it. We can’t know. Instead, their existence, and popularity, are a measure for what it is they are reacting to.
August 20th, 2008 at 11:43 am
Om,
Love Les Miserables and Princess Bride!
However, you cannot see into my (our) hearts. Here I go again, but TRULY, I am not bitter or seeking any kind of revenge. I am at peace, spiritually DONE with everything that happened to us. Because I continue to speak about it doesn’t mean I’m not well. It means that the problems continue and others are STILL being hurt. As I see it, I and many others here are in a unique position to aid those who are in the throes of their own situations now. We are here to help those who are hurt, struggling and, worst of all, feeling very alone. If it comes at the expense of exposing that which has long gone on behind closed doors or in “family meetings”, then so be it.
I am genuinely glad for you that you have never experienced the abuse, (yes, abuse- suggest you read The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse) that we have. Just make sure you’ve got the lessons that we painfully learned during our experiences. Let God be God in your life and not a man or organization. Don’t ever let anyone come between you and your Lord.
And for the record, I’m totally enjoying my freedom!
August 20th, 2008 at 11:47 am
Fama, I am glad you are back… I need to ask your forgiveness in the manner/spirit I replied to you the other day. Those words fall flat if I am riled up, and I was. Forgive me brother.
Take care,
…pk
August 20th, 2008 at 11:53 am
PK,
thanks; forgiven, no grudges. If it matters, please know that I didn’t feel offended. Misunderstandings happen when one is posting the 1st time, and face-to-face communication is missing.
August 20th, 2008 at 12:20 pm
PK -
I read the stories very thoroughly and I didn’t hear anything that could be labeled abuse. I heard things that I would describe as insensitive and clueless and sometimes even mean (assuming they’re true) but abusive? No. The word “abuse” is applied too loosely to these situations.
And PK – thanks for your words of caution and advice, but I don’t need or want it.
Thanks anyway,
Ombud
August 20th, 2008 at 12:26 pm
Pk,
Your words to Ombud were very gracious.
Ombud,
We are here because we want to help others who are struggling with the authoritarianism we all experienced in SGM. We are not bitter. People only use that accusation to try and quiet us. It just won’t work. I, personally, do not feel bitterness (though I recently repented of cynicism). I love God’s people. It is an injustice and, plainly, an untruth for CJ to tell pastors that they “stand in the very stead of God”, or “help the strong, pray for the weak”. We are not making this up! Frankly, we all have better things to do with our time than to blog about the misuse of authority we saw in SGM leadership. It is love for truth, love of God’s people, and the desire to see others set free that keeps us going.
Ask Jim and Carole. Go over to the survivors site to ask Guy and Kris. These folks get emails all the time from people who are too frightened to post here. The stories they tell are uncannily similar. Could so many people be so wrong, so bitter? I guess you might answer yes, but you’d have to do one thing. You’d have to call all those people, and all the people who post, liars.
Or more simply, bitter. Then you could ignore the wrongs that God, in His mercy, intends to right.
I do thank you for posting a little more calmly than some of the “drive-bys”. Maybe there can be a fruitful discussion. My first question to you would be, do Pastors stand in the very stead of God? My second question: is it right to help the strong and pray for the weak? Show us scripture that uphold these two points made by SGM leadership. I’d really like to see it. Peace to you.
August 20th, 2008 at 12:27 pm
Ombud said: “And PK – thanks for your words of caution and advice, but I don’t need or want it.”
But, of course, we are supposed to heed your advice… Hmmmmmm…
August 20th, 2008 at 12:29 pm
Ombud,
Are you an expert on abuse?
August 20th, 2008 at 12:33 pm
Ombud:
My mistake in the story’s reference. It is on sgm survivors website. Fair enough in regard to the caution and advice… my only exhortation at this point is for you to try to maintain more civility toward others here than what you displayed at the end of your last post directed at me. I’m a big boy and can take it. Others here don’t deserve that.
God bless,
…pk
August 20th, 2008 at 12:34 pm
Ombud,
I just read your last post. Too bad. I guess you won’t answer my questions, then. People who have no solid argument to stand on resort to accusations. Couldn’t you just try debate my two points? Unless you want to call us liars, as well as bitter, you have to admit to the outright misuse of their authority, the SGM leaders who teach these things. How can you support men who believe this nonsense? Stand in the very stead of God? Help the strong, pray for the weak? Come on, you have to have some thoughts on this!
If not, well, peace to you as you move on.
August 20th, 2008 at 1:29 pm
I don’t see anything uncivil in anything that I’ve said. I’ve simply given my opinion in a very honest and forthright way. I’m entitled to my opinion, right? Are you going to insist that I speak and express myself in a way that you deem acceptable? For you to insist that I speak in a way that is to your liking is to do what you say SGM does.
This site and sites like it remind me of school-shooter sites. Seems like every time a plot is uncovered to shoot up a school or bomb it, there’s some blog connected to it where the shooter has been posting his hatred of his targets and his list of grievances against it (or them, I guess). Jim, are you creating a church shooter? If one of your regulars shoots up a church someday are you going to be able to live with that?
Gracie, if in fact you have better things to do with your time, then, honey, why don’t you go do it?
Summer, in answer to your question – Are you?
August 20th, 2008 at 1:53 pm
Om,
That’s a bit of a stretch. I don’t hate SGM. Quite the contrary.
I’m glad you’re here, and you of course have the right to say anything you like in any manner you choose.
One of our few rules is be nice to the ladies. If you are a male, I’m not sure calling Gracie “honey” is appropriate in anyone’s world.
August 20th, 2008 at 1:59 pm
Hmmm…anybody notice that Om did not take me up on debating those two points I brought up? Just shows that he/she is responding emotionally instead of rationally. What a shame. And do I sense a bit of hostility in his/her manner, or is that my imagination?
August 20th, 2008 at 1:59 pm
OM,
Please read this post.
Is this pastor abusive?
August 20th, 2008 at 2:00 pm
Wow Ombud…
This statement… “I don’t see anything uncivil in anything that I’ve said. I’ve simply given my opinion in a very honest and forthright way. I’m entitled to my opinion, right? Are you going to insist that I speak and express myself in a way that you deem acceptable? For you to insist that I speak in a way that is to your liking is to do what you say SGM does.” is a very insightful glimpse of your arrogance. You expect others to speak in a way that is acceptable to you, but you don’t expect to do the same… Hmmmmmmm….
You want to be able to speak and express yourself, but you want to limit others from doing the same thing. Again… Hmmmmmm…
I don’t know if you are a “SGM’er” or not, but you sure talk like one.
(And… “honey”???? Watch out! Your pride is showing.)
August 20th, 2008 at 2:03 pm
Ombud is new, and therefore our guest.
Could we give him/her a chance to catch his/her breath?
Just a request…
August 20th, 2008 at 2:05 pm
Oops, I think Om was addressing me. Gracie mentioned nothing about spending her time with other things. I did. My point was that we are sacrificing our time and energy to help get out the word that people need no longer LIVE IN SLAVERY to man’s traditions and ideas. There is freedom in Christ on the other side of SGM.
Now, if Om would only tell us his views on:
1. Pastors stand in the very stead of God – said by CJ.
2. Help the strong, pray for the weak – confirmed here by at least two witnesses who were once in SGM leadership.
Where does the Bible support these two comments? Come on, Om, surely you can think for yourself. Put aside the hostility and really ponder on this. We’d truly like to know what you think.
August 20th, 2008 at 2:05 pm
Jim
Hatred drips from every word you say about SGM. All that sarcasm about this new church in NC? I can tell you that among people who know of the existence of this site (ordinary people, not leaders) the subject of security has been raised and people do wonder if there isn’t some kind of violent episode that will result from this. You probably don’t know all your regular posters face-to-face. You don’t know what could happen. This isn’t just harmless fun. Someone could get hurt and you’d be responsible.
Ombud
August 20th, 2008 at 2:07 pm
Sorry, Jim. I wrote my above post before seeing your latest. Hope I wasn’t too rough. I really would love to hear Om’s answers…
August 20th, 2008 at 2:09 pm
OMG…did he just write that? There is no debating this guy…
But OM sure confirms the type of fear and anger we experienced at PDI/SGM when leaders were disagreed with. This is just more proof to put in the files.
Sure wish someone from SGM would come on who was calm enough to debate those points of mine…dang, wouldn’t that be something.
Jim and Carole,
Ignore the vitriol in Om’s post. It is unbelievable that he would even talk about anyone here doing violence. Oh brother….
August 20th, 2008 at 2:11 pm
Ombud, the more you spew, the more it only legitimizes the necessity of sites like this, and the more it makes it necessary to address the manner and verbal bombs you drop. I wasn’t telling you how to speak/write, I was addressing common manners of civility, and you know that. Please don’t pretend to not understand what point I was making, and please don’t act surprised that your crash-landing here isn’t going to catch on fire, burn and blowup in your face.
The whole Columbine-scenario is a stretch, and a very weak argument. Nobody mentioned any type of public outcry/violence until you did. This makes me wonder if this is something pent up in you, and if that’s the case, then I’m praying for you right now.
Whether you want words of caution or not is your perogative. Whether you need them or not is so glaringly apparent a neophyte counselor’s red flags would shoot up like bottle rockets.
Take care… please.
…pk
…pk
August 20th, 2008 at 2:18 pm
Ombud saith: “If the people in this ministry are as corrupt and duplicitous and abusive as you say, shouldn’t you just trust God to destroy it instead of trying to do it yourself?”
In the real world, “trusting God” often means responding to God’s call to work for him. Likely many were praying and trusting God to reform the Roman Catholic Church, but Martin Luther and some others in the 1500s actually “did it [themselves]“. Luther nailed a paper full of questions to a door, and changed the Church. Consider this blog a similar set of questions to SGM – which they, so far, have absolutely refused to acknowledge or answer. (But one day, the just God will force SGM to acknowledge these issues, and not because everyone kept silent.)
Turning to scripture, note how upset God was to discover he had no human partner, in the days of Isaiah:
“I looked, but there was no one to help, I was appalled that no one gave support; so my own arm worked salvation for me…” (Is 63)
James assumed that our faith would result in good works:
“If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. ” (Jas 2)
August 20th, 2008 at 2:21 pm
Ombud,
Sarcasm does not equal hatred.
I don’t know what to make of the security concerns-I think it’s a little paranoid.
I certainly do not advocate violence, and there’s nothing fun about running this site.
In other words, I take no pleasure in reading and hearing 100’s of horror stories.
I take no pleasure in seeing how far a movement that I love has fallen.
Zero. None. Nada.
There are SGM churches that will probably end up in the mainstream media before the end of the year. SGM needs to clean their own house, now that they are being exposed, and their reign of silence is over.
If something horrible does happen, SGM will only have to look in the mirror to see who’s to blame.
I obviously pray that it would never come to that, and feel that security concerns are a little out there.
August 20th, 2008 at 2:27 pm
canary,
Those are interesting things said by CJ (at least the first was, was the second?)
Still being in SGM, I cannot agree with the second. That is not something Jesus would do, he was a friend to sinners, and to the weak. He did not support the Pharisees or only those doing well.
And the first statement… I don’t even understand it.
August 20th, 2008 at 2:31 pm
There is absolutely nothing uncivil in anything I’ve said. I have merely given my opinion in a very calm and rational manner. It is you guys who are “losing it” and the temper tantrums that have resulted from my posts only serve to reinforce my concern that one of you could turn violent and do something terrible. You spend hours and hours every day poring over and analyzing SGM for some new offense and writing paragraph after paragraph about how bad it is. It’s deranged. These are not the actions of people with lives.
I seriously doubt that people who are still IN SGM churches think about SGM as much as you people do. Move on, folks. There’s sunshine and fresh air and all kinds of things to enjoy in the real world. Time to join the party.
August 20th, 2008 at 2:32 pm
Jim,
Do you really think it’s that serious that SGM could be in mainstream media by the end of the year??
Also, in response to the violence that Ombud mentioned could happen… I must admit, when I first got on these sites and was reading, that was a fear of mine. Mostly because I did not see what they were talking about and it all seemed over the top. However, since taking more time to read stories and God opening my eyes to problems within my own church, I understand the purpose of these sites more clearly. It’s not an angry mob of townspeople going to beat down the Beast’s door with a tree, it’s hurt people who trying to recover from the pain and confusion they experienced at their churches they loved. In general, I don’t see bitterness, although it does seem like an occasional commenter may struggle with it. The love shown for people here is just evidence that God is working in them and teaching them to love others as he loved them first.
August 20th, 2008 at 2:38 pm
Jim,
Forgive me, but in the same way that you found Detwiler and Connolly’s words nauseating, I find your protestations as to the nobility of what you’re doing equally nauseating – as though this “mission” was thrust upon you. SGM isn’t the Catholic Church and you sir are not Martin Luther.
August 20th, 2008 at 2:41 pm
eponine,
The chances are 50/50 regarding media attention. It depends on how the parties involved handle things.
Now would be a very good time for SGM leaders to humble themselves. The free ride is over.
To further clarify, I can’t say anything else about the situations, and I will have nothing to do with any media exposure (other than this site) that SGM might receive.
August 20th, 2008 at 2:43 pm
Om-
That’s fine. I agree with the Luther reference.
I’m praying for SGM’s Luther to appear, but I’m clearly not him.
Tums are helpful.
August 20th, 2008 at 2:46 pm
“You spend hours and hours every day poring over and analyzing SGM for some new offense and writing paragraph after paragraph about how bad it is. It’s deranged. These are not the actions of people with lives. ”
Ombud, you’ve been posting for four hours. You told me specifically that you read this website top to bottom. You’ve written paragraph after paragraph in response to others here at SGM Refuge. By your own definition, you are deranged and don’t have a life.
Thankfully, my definition of you is nothing of the sort. We on earth are all under the scope of sinners, some saved by grace. So why not stop shooting yourself in the foot, and address the issues here in a cogent manner.
Let’s get down to brass tacks, then: how about addressing Canary’s posts/questions?
And I promise I’ll keep my big fat mouth shut (that’s only a rest-of-the-day promise on this subject).
…pk
August 20th, 2008 at 2:54 pm
Ombud,
I find it significant that you chose to insult Jim via my historical reference, but didn’t feel you could respond to my scriptural references. It reminds me that when I left SGM a few years ago, there was so very little scripture being taught, and so much scripture being ignored.
Jesus pointed out a similar imbalance in his day:
“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.” (Matt 23)
Encouraging SGM to practice biblical justice, mercy and faithfulness in their own house is what this blog is about. If they would do these things, in addition to teaching on the roles of men and women and many other secondary issues, this site would be unnecessary.
And then maybe we could all go play in the sunshine, as you suggest. Distraught SGM members wouldn’t have to waste time in meetings with SGM pastors, in which they’re mocked and attacked for raising even the most innocuous questions about SGM doctrine and practice. And SGM pastors could take a walk outside, instead of organizing rumor campaigns about SGM members who have decided to leave rather than endure cruel treatment by those who are supposed to be modeling Christ.
August 20th, 2008 at 2:58 pm
Keep and Om,
If I see reform within SGM, this site will become my passion.
I’ll document it every step of the way, and this will become an extreme example of a PRO-SGM site.
August 20th, 2008 at 3:06 pm
If I saw SGM begin reforms (and I’m not talking about based on my whimsy and pithy comments… I mean solid reforms to prevent websites like this from even forming), my full time mission in life would be to shout it from the rooftops… reform is my heart’s desire! First within myself, then within the ministry I love!
…pk
August 20th, 2008 at 3:08 pm
PK-
Here’s what’s funny… this has always been a pro-sgm site.
They just don’t get it.
August 20th, 2008 at 3:10 pm
Yeah, Jim! That’s the way!
Eponine,
Hi! So glad you are back. Jim can pull up the quote from CJ about Pastors standing in the very stead of God. It’s on this blog, somewhere. It means that Pastors act as mediators between the members of their organization and God. Only Jesus can claim that spot (I believe that is in Hebrews).
Jim was told when he was in leadership about praying for the weak but helping the strong. He can confirm this. There is another ex-leader who comes on this site who said the same thing. I just can’t remember the person’s name. Are you out there? Can you confirm?
Eponine, I hope you are doing well. You sound like a really nice person!
August 20th, 2008 at 3:16 pm
Ombud,
Your statements about SGM’s “security concerns” in light of some angry comments left on blogs are just…well…what can anyone say? If a person’s first thought, when reading someone’s story about a bad church experience, is one of self-preservation and concern for his own safety, doesn’t that demonstrate a bizarre lack of Biblical perspective toward the people who are hurting?
Also, your own admonitions to the folks here to just ”trust God to avenge” fall pretty flat if you yourself are not content to trust God to protect you from IMAGINED danger.
August 20th, 2008 at 3:17 pm
Canary & Eponine,
Our church was adopted by SGM in 1999.
In 2000, I was in the class of 5 men and their wives who were to be the first care group leaders-SGM style.
We were clearly taught-work with the strong, pray for the weak.
The “very stead of God” post is here
August 20th, 2008 at 3:20 pm
Well said, Kris.
August 20th, 2008 at 3:24 pm
Canary,
You sound like a really nice person as well! In fact a lot of you on here do! It’d be fun to meet some of you (if I don’t already know you – how strange the Internet can be)
It says in 1 Timothy 2:5 “For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” So that verse alone would be a major contradiction to any pastor saying he is the mediator between God and the congregation. There are also verses all over Hebrews about Christ being our mediator. A pastor claiming to be our mediator is almost like claiming to be God (Jesus), which would be outright heresy.
August 20th, 2008 at 3:25 pm
Om,
In answer to my question, no I’m not, but I could probably educate YOU on the subject. Yours is an opinion, mine is an experience.
Gimme a break with the whole violence thing….
August 20th, 2008 at 3:27 pm
Keepinstep:
You have made some outstanding posts, btw. I pray I can have yours and canary’s patience in the future… I’m not being facetious or patronizing with that, I am sincere.
…pk
August 20th, 2008 at 3:31 pm
Eponine:
The 1 Timothy 2:5 quote… I’ve heard it and read it a zillion times, yet at this moment I am profoundly affected by it. Thank you for being obedient to share the word in light of this discussion. This verse made my week… month… year… lifetime?
Thanks again,
…pk
August 20th, 2008 at 3:48 pm
Just a thought, as I read the post from CJ (or rather Jeff Purswell) – which I would like to go back and read more thoroughly later – I’m wondering something, and want to know what you all think…
Do you think he could mean that he is in a severe place as he preaches God’s word and he needs to make sure that he takes that position with seriousness as he addresses the people with the living word of God? I mean, one slight mistake could be heresy! If a pastor is not careful, he may slip and say the wrong thing, or confuse people. Also, I never saw the word “mediator” in the article. Could he mean that he is in a place where he is bringing the word of God to people (who should be studying it on their own) and possibly clarifying it for them, and teaching them – but not actually being a mediator, because that goes back to the mistakes of the Catholic church.
These are just some thoughts that crossed my mind and I’m curious to know what you all think… let me know if this does not make sense
August 20th, 2008 at 3:52 pm
This is one day in my life. You guys have been posting for months. I tried to read the site fully because I wanted to form an opinion based on all the information that’s available rather than shooting from the hip. You should give me snaps for that. And I have time for this today. Jim all those posts that you pulled out for my benefit. I’ve already read them. I’m not impressed.
I’m an SGM member going way back. My life is about as different from the stereotypical SGM-er as it gets. The control that you describe is nothing that I’ve experienced. No one has ever questioned, confronted, corrected or offered an observation about my very unorthodox lifestyle. They seem to simply assume that I am following the Lord even if I’m not doing the typical things that many SGers do.
I can see some of the faults and foibles that you’ve described. But I also see a sincere desire to reach the lost and a recognition that the church is for everyone not just the white upper-middle class.
Canary – I’ve never heard those particular quotes in context so I don’t want to comment on them, but I do know that I see no sign that my pastor wants me to look upon him as God Almighty and I’d be very surprised if one statement “help the strong, pray for the weak” is the sum total of everything SG pastors think should be done for people who are hard-pressed. Or maybe they just have a very high opinion of the effectiveness of prayer. Over the years, I’ve seen “weak” people helped, loved and cared for.
In short, the SG that you present here is an SG that I don’t recognize. I believe that I’ve been given the freedom to figure out how to apply Scripture without interference from pastors, CG leaders or other members. I simply can’t sympathize with people who were “made to feel bad” because because they departed from some perceived SG rule for living. When I make a decision about my life that diverges from the accepted norm, it isn’t my pastor’s fault if I lack the confidence to brazen it out with my fellow members who probably aren’t thinking anything anyway. I love my pastor, but I don’t need his stamp of approval on my life or my parenting decisions. That’s why our relationship works.
In my opinion, your legitimate criticisms of SG (and some of them are legitimate) are nullified by they way you’re communicating those criticisms. Haven’t you ever heard the one about flies and sugar vs. vinegar? These kinds of sites don’t heal hearts. Rather they make it harder for people to move on. Actually, the latest psychological research shows that when people talk on and on about their grievances, it actually ends up making them feel worse. That’s not Ombud, folks, that’s science.
If your goal is to do good, then personally I think you need to focus on a single goal and find a constructive way to make it happen. This isn’t it. I’m allowed to give my opinion – right?
August 20th, 2008 at 3:55 pm
Eponine,
I think you are correct in what Jeff was saying.
The danger in these statements is that they are presented to an audience (shepherds and sheep), who already have an unbiblical view of clergy/laity.
August 20th, 2008 at 3:58 pm
Ombud:
You can always give an opinion, and if you had come on here like you did in your last post, I don’t think quite as many bombs would have gone off.
Truce?
…pk
August 20th, 2008 at 4:03 pm
PK,
Bombs don’t bother me. Bomb away.
August 20th, 2008 at 4:22 pm
Om-you sure are allowed to give your opinion. Here’s your snaps.
I’m sorry, but the sugar/vinegar thing is just an easy out for anyone who wants to take it. “I don’t like your tone, so I’m covering my ears”.
I could refer you to the tone of Jesus and Paul, but then you’d tell me I’m no Paul.
I’m genuinely happy that your experience in SGM is positive. Obviously experience doesn’t trump experience.
Pointing you to Ryan’s story was not an attempt to impress you, but it was attached to a question.
Could you answer it please? “Is this pastor abusive?”
August 20th, 2008 at 4:32 pm
Jim,
You said, “The danger in these statements is that they are presented to an audience (shepherds and sheep), who already have an unbiblical view of clergy/laity.”
Be careful making generalizing statements like this – Having been in SGM for many years, statements like this have not made me think that the pastors are my mediators to reaching God. In fact, if they had made it sound like that I would have been alarmed. I have learned enough of the Roman Catholic Church to fear the outcome of leaders like that. I think there are many bright God-loving Christians in SGM who do not see the clergy in this way. However, as you have noted, there most likely are many who see sermons, etc as their way of meeting with God through the pastor - which is laziness on their part.
August 20th, 2008 at 4:38 pm
Also, about what canary mentioned earlier with the pastor teaching to help the strong and pray for the weak, I have nothing to say about that. It’s absurd. And also its nothing I have encountered at my sgm church - which I thank God for.
August 20th, 2008 at 4:56 pm
Your gang has reproving me all day over my tone and PK said that if I had the proper tone in the first place, he would have been more open to my point of view. So I guess tone is ONLY important for those who want to defend SG. If you want to trash it, sarcasm is fine, scorn is fine, mocking is fine. So I guess the flies and sugar thing is only selectively applied here.
As to Ryan’s story, you’re going to have to refresh my memory. I believe I have read all or close to all of the stories and I didn’t hear anything that sounded abusive. I heard things that sounded unbelievable and exaggerated and I did hear some things that I thought (assuming they were true) that they were fairly insensitive and harsh but abusive? No, nothing I read rises to the level of abuse. There was one situation that you wrote about that I actually have some intimate knowledge of and the way you characterized it was dead wrong and much of what was reported to you was pure fiction. And you trumpeted it into cyberspace as fact. I’m sure that pleased God, brought Him glory and accomplished His purposes.
It sounds to me as though you lost patience with the biblical approach to reconciliation with your pastor and decided to go nuclear. Sounds like God didn’t work it out on your timetable so you’ve taken matters into your own hands.
August 20th, 2008 at 5:15 pm
Om-
Here’s Ryan’s story.
I don’t have a gang. If commenters here are my gang, then one could number you as one of them.
I’ve tried to be polite, and don’t think I’ve turned the sugar/vinegar thing on you.
I fully understand the anger someone feels when they first encounter this site.
This is very significant:
“There was one situation that you wrote about that I actually have some intimate knowledge of and the way you characterized it was dead wrong and much of what was reported to you was pure fiction. And you trumpeted it into cyberspace as fact. I’m sure that pleased God, brought Him glory and accomplished His purposes.”
Please be specific. If I’ve posted anything that is false, I’ll take it down. You can email me if you like here.
August 20th, 2008 at 5:31 pm
Ombud:
“I’m sure that pleased God, brought Him glory and accomplished His purposes.”
“Forgive me, but in the same way that you found Detwiler and Connolly’s words nauseating, I find your protestations as to the nobility of what you’re doing equally nauseating – as though this “mission” was thrust upon you. SGM isn’t the Catholic Church and you sir are not Martin Luther.”
“Of course there’s vengeance in your heart. You clearly want to “get” these people.”
“If what I’ve read about your experiences comprises “abuse” then words have no meaning. Move on, people. You have freed yourselves from this ministry. Enjoy your freedom.”
“You know, this is so sad.”
In regard to the above quotes (and a dozen or so of others) Ombud, I can’t improve on your words: I’m sure that pleased God, brought Him glory and accomplished His purposes. It sounds to me as though you lost patience with us, never even came anywhere near a biblical approach with Jim and others here in regard to broaching any subject, and decided to go nuclear. Sounds like God didn’t work it out on your terms, and when someone calls you on your attitude and wide-brushed tar and feathering, you’ve decided to take matters into your own hands.
“There was one situation that you wrote about that I actually have some intimate knowledge of and the way you characterized it was dead wrong and much of what was reported to you was pure fiction. And you trumpeted it into cyberspace as fact.”
Ah, now the truth comes out. Why wasn’t this in your first post, and we could have spared everyone the tap-dance masquerade (punctuated by a grenade or eight, but a tap-dance nonetheless)?
I’m waiting on pins and needles in regard to you setting Jim straight on the facts.
…pk
August 20th, 2008 at 5:54 pm
Eponine,
I can see that the “stead of God” comment could mean what you say. Unfortunately, I saw often in my time at PDI/SGM this sort of thing actually happening. That is why I was so amazed to see CJ actually putting it on his blog.
We had to seek “permission” to be “released” from a meeting. I had a friend who felt called at three different times to do missions work, but her leaders told her she could not. So she didn’t. One friend had a pastor tell him that he was not in a place to hear God for himself on a decision to relocate. I had a friend who was coerced into marrying a young woman (it ended in divorce) because his leader told him it was wrong that my friend could not seem to committ to a relationship. This pastor actually yelled at my friend. We had a women’s care group that was going so well, with the Holy Spirit moving among us, bringing us closer together. Our Pastor decided to end this and gave us questions to answer every week (he had more control of us this way). The meeting became dead. The worst thing I witnessed was how a Senior Pastor took it upon himself to stop the Holy Spirit from moving in our meetings. He decided that it wasn’t the way things should go. To me, that is a mere man standing in the stead of God.
When a person is not allowed to hear from the Lord personally, when he/she is accused of “mysticism” as Concerned was, simply because she desired to pursue a closer relationship with Jesus, then something is wrong. When members are afraid to do anything that their pastor/cg leader does not agree with, there is something wrong. When a person is made to think that they will fall away if they leave their SGM church, wow, there is really something wrong.
There are too many stories here and on survivors to ignore this kind of controlling, authoritarian behavior by churchleaders. Maybe CJ meant to endorse the “very stead of God” thing or not. But he and other SGM leaders certainly do walk in the idea.
And it is my understanding (and experience) that working with the strong and praying for the weak means exactly that. Too many weak people were left by the wayside by leaders, who felt that their time was better spent with those strong ones who could be potential leaders someday. I actually had a well-known SGM Pastor tell me, in so many words, this thing about myself.
I hate that this kind of stuff goes on. That’s why I blog here. People need to understand that they are being taught not to think for themselves. They live off their leaders’ words, faith, knowledge, and direction.
It wasn’t until I came away from SGM that I began to know my freedom in Christ. I learned to understand truth verses lie. I learned to think for myself, to hear God for myself, to walk in a freedom I’d never known (I was in PDI from the age of eighteen until I was about 32). I saw that the men who were “leading” took too much upon themselves. They wanted my obedience, but they didn’t love me.
I am sharing this not out of pain or bitterness. I’m actually doing quite well. But I want you to compare the experiences you read on this blog and survivors, and see if the leadership doesn’t consider its place in members life to be a little more important than it actually should be. That’s all.
August 20th, 2008 at 5:54 pm
Ombud said: If the people in this ministry are as corrupt and duplicitous and abusive as you say, shouldn’t you just trust God to destroy it instead of trying to do it yourself?
First off, I have never seen anyone on these sites come even close to suggesting that they want to see SGM “destroyed.” I do not believe that is the wish of anyone commenting here.
You know, I used to believe what Ombud said in the quote above. And then I finally came to understand that God uses people to get things done – such as exposing the negative aspects of a particular ministry. How do you suppose any ministry would change or grow if everyone who had an issue with it just up and left? Never mind the fact that most of the people here, by my reckoning, were pushed out of or forced out of SGM against their will and no longer have recourse to the much vaunted Matthew 18 method of dealing with conflict. I guess we should all just shut up and let God deal with the problem.
August 20th, 2008 at 6:03 pm
PK,
There has been absolutely nothing uncivil in anything I’ve said. I’ve only spoken in measured and reasonable tones. I have voiced my opinion. I’ve been assured that this is place where people can express themselves. I wonder that I’ve been taken to task over and over again about my tone, my “bomb-throwing” when so much of what goes on here is sarcastic, rude, assumes the worst about people’s motives and purports to know what’s in the hearts of SG leaders. I haven’t thrown any bombs – merely expressed what I think about what’s going on here. We could point out each other’s hypocrisy until the cows come home. We could argue all day about who REALLY knows what’s up.
The truth is that it’s basically the same 10 or so people who post on this site hour after hour, day after day. In my opinion, this is deranged behavior, a little worrying from a security perspective and a sign that you have too much time on your hands that could be spent – I don’t know – feeding the hungry, evangelizing the lost, visiting those who are sick and in prison. I happened to have a day when I’m stuck at home and tied to the pc so I have the time today. But this is the only day. Tomorrow, I’ll be back to feeding the hungry, evangelizing the lost and visiting those who are sick and in prison – stuff I became motivated to do through God’s word and the encouragement of my SG pastors whom I love and respect.
Enjoy your time,
Ombud
August 20th, 2008 at 6:09 pm
Ombud,
How did I know you wouldn’t answer my questions?
August 20th, 2008 at 6:13 pm
Okay…Ombud shows that he has no inclination to listen or learn from here. He is blind to his own faults. This canary smells something foul in the mine. I’m taking my cage topside til the air smells better, hopefully tomorrow when our guest is out “feeding the hungry, evangelizing the lost and visiting those who are sick and in prison”. I hope his gospel isn’t as narrowminded as he is. Poor guy…
August 20th, 2008 at 6:29 pm
PK,
Looks like Ombud may be the one making false accusations, it seems he won’t answer.
He came in with the right name, but turned into someone that said things that to be investigated.
August 20th, 2008 at 6:31 pm
Ombud:
I happen to have a wrecked spine and neck and am tied to my PC and physical therapy; my career went kaput as my job required lots of travel, so I’m online quite a bit these days looking for work. So I guess you could say I’m stuck at home as well. But it has been a time of refreshing and renewal spiritually, and most definitely an eye-opening exchange with my fellow members of Sovereign Grace Ministries.
As much as you don’t want my advice, you need it, so here goes: You might not want to use the word “deranged” when you visit the sick with circumstances similar to mine… I know that the guys who take care of me at my church don’t, and they are some of the best. They also don’t serve me sour grapes when I am hungry, and I am almost positive their prison visits don’t involve them beginning with the words “You know, this is sad.” When these guys evangelize, they give people the gospel, and not themselves in measured, civil tones. If you don’t want to learn from my sterling, deranged, get-a-life example, I urge you to learn from theirs.
Take care and God bless. Like it or not, you are in my prayers.
…pk
August 20th, 2008 at 6:35 pm
Mike, nice to meet you! And… I agree. LOL
…pk
August 20th, 2008 at 6:48 pm
Oh man….
Tomorrow, I’ll be back to feeding the hungry, evangelizing the lost and visiting those who are sick and in prison
Please. You’ll be mingling with the homeless, food in hand, stop by the local hospital and the local prison tomorrow, just like you did yesterday?
C’mon…
August 20th, 2008 at 7:05 pm
PK,
I’m sorry to hear of your physical infirmity. I will be praying for you. And thanks for being a clear, strong voice on this blog! It also sounds like you have a good bunch of guys in your church. I’ve always said there are exceptions in SGM. Glad you are part of one. God Bless!
August 20th, 2008 at 7:55 pm
PK –
Your wrecked spine does not excuse your participation in contributing to this poison. You may feel tied to your pc, but you aren’t tied to this blog.
Canary -
I came, I saw, I disagree. Isn’t one of your complaints about SG their insistance on lockstep agreement? Are you doing what you accuse them of doing? Besides, “learn”? Learn what? You look down on SG – I get it.
Jim -
You’re right – not all in one day of course. But by the end of the week without a doubt.
Now, let’s talk about Ryan’s story. The first thing that is obvious is that this church was never a good fit for him from the beginning. SG has a different approach to missions and if traditional missions is what you’re into, you simply are not going to be happy in an SG church. Whether you believe that Celebration or foreign missions is a better use of church money is a subjective call and good people can disagree about it.
“The assistant pastor asked me point-blank once whether I was considering leaving, to which I responded “no” because at that point I wanted to stick it out. I was going through some major “fear of man”, as they would say, and though I expressed many of my disagreements, I never did tell them that I was considering leaving. I was simply too afraid of what they might do or say. “
This is an example of deceitfulness on Ryan’s part. It isn’t the pastor’s fault that Ryan was too afraid to tell the truth. I see this theme over and over again on this site. You’re afraid of what everyone will think of you so you blame the pastors. Incredible.
“They met us in a public place, and the assistant pastor came as well. The senior pastor yelled and screamed at us for about an hour, and called me insulting names like “insane”. Fallon was in tears, and we were both embarrassed by the public setting. We left, again thinking this was the end.”
Yelled and screamed at him in a public place? Are you kidding me? Who does this? Hey, I wasn’t there, but I’d call that claim questionable.
How does he know what was said at a family meeting if he wasn’t there? If someone close to him like his brother-in-law called him “emotionally abusive” – hmm, well, it bears thinking about.
This is Ryan’s side of it and that’s all you have. There is plenty here that leaves room for doubt. It was probably one of those human situations where everyone screwed up including Ryan and there’s plenty of blame to go around. Ryan was an intern, he lied about his intention of finding a new church, then he EMAILS his pastor to break up. Again, I just don’t think you can blame other people because you crave their approval too much to be straight with them. His pastor may have reacted to Ryan’s duplicitous behavior sinfully, but I don’t think there’s anything uniquely SG about that. I think a lot of people would have.
The problem comes in when you fix on a narrative i.e. evil CJ controls every SG church with an iron fist – and reject any exculpatory information that doesn’t fit the narrative – i.e. Danny Jones has got his own thing going in FL. How can A be true if B is also true? Hmmmm. Something’s not adding up. Either A is true or B is true, but they can’t both be true.
I trust I have answered your question in sufficient detail.
Ombud
August 20th, 2008 at 8:07 pm
Ombud,
Just curious. What are you trying to accomplish here? If we are as deranged as you say, then what purpose do any of your comments serve? I’m just wondering why you feel the need to make your case to crazy, insecure folks in the first place.
August 20th, 2008 at 8:23 pm
WIP -
Because deranged people are a hoot! I have no goals here. I’m just amusing myself.
August 20th, 2008 at 8:24 pm
Yeah, WIP, why is he wasting his energy? If Ombud is just here for the day, as he claims, we don’t have much to worry about. He’ll be gone tomorrow, and we can return to figuring out how to get past Nurse Ratched.
August 20th, 2008 at 8:36 pm
Ombud, I actually e-mailed Jim earlier, suggesting you be given the benefit of the doubt… but that last comment contained a downright ignorant remark toward PK. He wasn’t trying to “excuse his participation” here; he was explaining how his is not an example of someone sitting at a computer all day because they “have no life.”
I read your first comments in this thread, and you’re right: there’s nothing in them that implies a bad attitude on your part. However, I think it’s safe to say that now you’re merely engaging in a p****ing contest—and I feel gullible for having assumed the best about you. :
Maybe you’re just getting worked up. Maybe you’re reading the same (nonexistent) vitriolic tone in others’ remarks that they’re reading into yours. Maybe both sides need to read each other’s comments with the assumption that the other person is trying to help (regardless of how successful their help may be).
Whatever the case may be, perhaps everyone needs to chill for the evening?
August 20th, 2008 at 9:21 pm
Ombud,
Might I suggest that you work on your comprehension skills?
You said:
Yelled and screamed at him in a public place? Are you kidding me? Who does this? Hey, I wasn’t there, but I’d call that claim questionable.
How does he know what was said at a family meeting if he wasn’t there? If someone close to him like his brother-in-law called him “emotionally abusive” – hmm, well, it bears thinking about.
This is Ryan’s side of it and that’s all you have. There is plenty here that leaves room for doubt
From my post:
I wanted to feature his story as a post, but as he’s using his name, and naming names, I needed to do some work behind the scenes. I asked for an email from his wife to hear her view, and asked Ryan to provide 2 or 3 witnesses. I’ve heard from 3 people so far, including one who gave me a pretty detailed account of the “family meeting” that Ryan referenced. All who I’ve been in contact with have confirmed his story.
Are you unable to read, or do you think that I make this stuff up?
August 20th, 2008 at 9:36 pm
I think you make this stuff up.
Seriously? Asking Ryan to provide witnesses? Fact-checking would mean that you contacted the church, informed them of Ryan’s post and asked for their side of the story. That’s fact-checking, my friend. If they failed to comment, then you could post Ryan’s story, say that you tried to get the other side but they wouldn’t cooperate and that you’ve done your due diligence.
Besides I already know that your “facts” are questionable. I read just fine, but thanks for asking. You know that my assessment of Ryan’s “story” is fair.
August 20th, 2008 at 9:38 pm
So, you honestly can’t read. From the same post:
I then sent an email over the weekend to the sr p of St Pete, and to his secretary, just in case he was out of town. I asked him if he wanted to respond, and gave him my personal email and phone number. Here it is:
Hi Jerry,
My name is Jim Xxxxxxxxx. I was a CGL at the Titusville church.
I run sgmrefuge.com
A former member of Gulf Coast has posted to our blog.
Since he’s being very specific, I wanted to give you a chance to respond.
You can call me any time @ XXX-504-4542, or bounce back a note if you like.
I asked him for “2 or 3 witnesses”, and I’ve received 3 emails so far, and I’m told that more are coming.
I’d really like to hear your side of the story.
Grace,
Jim
August 20th, 2008 at 9:39 pm
Call Gulf Coast and ask the Secretary if I sent her and the sr pastor the email above.
August 20th, 2008 at 9:41 pm
Jim,
I’ve been reading from “top side” and saw this by Ombud:
WIP -
Because deranged people are a hoot! I have no goals here. I’m just amusing myself.
This guy reminds me of Dennis. He’s just here to cause dissent. He’s probably having a great time, as he “amuses himself”. You shouldn’t spend much more time being distracted from the course set before you by answering his nonsense. I hope you don’t mind my input.
August 20th, 2008 at 9:48 pm
canary,
Dissent is welcome here. I appreciate your input, but look at the last 4 posts.
At this point, I’m amused.
August 20th, 2008 at 9:52 pm
Okee-doke. Just looking out for you, and any vulnerable people who are reading.
August 20th, 2008 at 10:01 pm
canary,
I appreciate it! I just think what just transpired is classic.
Ombud came on, guns blazing, and as the day progressed, dug himself into a hole.
His next statement will show what he’s made of.
August 20th, 2008 at 10:12 pm
Then what you can say about it is that Ryan submitted a story, his friends corroborated it, but ultimately you’ll never really know how much of it is true because the other side of the sketch chose not to respond. Personally, after reading what passes for constructive criticism on this site, I can’t blame the man for not responding.
You know that my assessment of Ryan’s story is a fair assessment. I’m not saying its all lies, but I am saying that its his perspective sans any balancing perspective and therefore should be approached with caution.
So what if Ryan’s WIFE corroborates the yelling in the restaurant. Of course she does. What else is she going to do? What else are his FRIENDS going to do?
And no, I heard nothing that sounded like abuse.
Just, you know, take deep breaths. Relax. I’m just questioning your integrity. It’s ok to question, right? I mean, if you didn’t allow me to question things that would make you like you-know-who…
August 20th, 2008 at 10:18 pm
Ah, I see now. The only difference between Ombud and your garden variety internet troll is that s/he quotes more scripture. In that case, my usual advice is – don’t feed the trolls! They just like the attention.
August 20th, 2008 at 10:18 pm
Oh brother…I see what you mean, Jim. The more Om blows, the more he shows.
I think even SGM leaders would be embarrassed and ashamed of him.
Goodnight!
August 20th, 2008 at 10:20 pm
Ombud,
At least be consistent. here’s what you said:
Fact-checking would mean that you contacted the church, informed them of Ryan’s post and asked for their side of the story. That’s fact-checking, my friend. If they failed to comment, then you could post Ryan’s story, say that you tried to get the other side but they wouldn’t cooperate and that you’ve done your due diligence.
Then you realize you didn’t actually read the post, and come back with this:
Then what you can say about it is that Ryan submitted a story, his friends corroborated it, but ultimately you’ll never really know how much of it is true because the other side of the sketch chose not to respond.
Which is it?
Please choose which side of your mouth you’re going to speak with and stick to it.
August 20th, 2008 at 10:21 pm
Checkmate.
August 20th, 2008 at 10:40 pm
You clearly are not comprehending me and it may not be all your fault for a change. I was handling a business call and typing at the same time.
What I’m saying is that ultimately, these stories really can’t be corroborated. You get a story, the “victim’s” friends and relatives weigh in. You have no avenue to receive any exculpatory information because the people on the other side of the sketch won’t talk to you.
I know from at least one of the stories you posted that you are not in possession of all the facts or even very many of the facts. People have their perspective and the truth can be an elusive thing. The old saying that there are 2 sides to every story is wrong. There are usually a lot more than 2 sides and you’re just getting one.
August 20th, 2008 at 10:49 pm
Ombud,
You referred to this before, and i asked you to be specific.
This is very significant:
“There was one situation that you wrote about that I actually have some intimate knowledge of and the way you characterized it was dead wrong and much of what was reported to you was pure fiction. And you trumpeted it into cyberspace as fact. I’m sure that pleased God, brought Him glory and accomplished His purposes.”
Could you please tell me what you’re referring to?
August 20th, 2008 at 10:52 pm
Ombud saith: “I know from at least one of the stories you posted that you are not in possession of all the facts or even very many of the facts. ”
Since you’re pressing Jim so hard to tell the complete truth, you have a moral obligation to share with him these missing “facts.”
August 20th, 2008 at 10:56 pm
Ombud, someone reveals a hole in your construct, and you blame business calls.
Someone hands you an olive branch, you reply with a snake bite.
You have no toes left, that’s how many times you’ve shot yourself in the foot.
“People have their perspective and the truth can be an elusive thing,” is a very weak way of saying that you’ve spent hours not really offering any light on this subject, and the best you can come up with is post after post that really just amounts to “You’re wrong…nyaaaah!”
As the great philosopher Stephen King said, I’m going to leave this discussion before it descends to the level of calling each other poopy-kaka.
Goodnight, folks.
…pk
August 20th, 2008 at 11:09 pm
Dear Ombud,
You will never have the priveledge of hearing my story, or challenging what I live through to leave a church that I loved. But I wonder if you are a part of my local church. Because of coldhearted saints like you, I’m done. I glad to be once removed, thanks Jim for your prayers.
August 20th, 2008 at 11:10 pm
Jim, you are out of your frickin’ mind if you think I’m going to pass along personal information about close friends of mine for you to blog about. I wouldn’t discuss this situation with you or your gang in a million billion years. Why should I? You’ve already published the version that fits the narrative. You’ve already decided what you want to believe. The damage is done. What good would it do to remove it now? No, you’re stuck with this one.
August 20th, 2008 at 11:15 pm
ombud,
All I’m asking is this-what post are you referring to? I haven’t asked you for any personal information. You keep referring to ’something’ and I have no idea what you’re talking about.
August 20th, 2008 at 11:20 pm
No way. You’re just looking for some juicy gossip.
August 20th, 2008 at 11:20 pm
Can anyone say troll?
August 20th, 2008 at 11:32 pm
Can anyone say Sovereign grace ministries clone without character troll? I can sleep now, thanks guy.
August 20th, 2008 at 11:34 pm
Umm- “Because of coldhearted saints like you, I’m done. I glad to be once removed” That’s what I was thinking when I read that Om saw no abuse!
August 20th, 2008 at 11:41 pm
Thanks Kali,
I was just talking to someone today and shared my feelings about SGM saints saying….”well that just never happened to me” or “I just don’t see how that can happened. ” The saints could not choke out even an ounce of compassion, to ever say…”I’m sorry that happened, or can I pray for you” So thanks for understanding. It was hard and sickening. And I will not be put on ”trial” by the saints…
August 20th, 2008 at 11:42 pm
Well, dudes, I’m off to bed.
I’m sure we didn’t accomplish anything useful here today, but then again that seems like a fairly typical day on hater sites of any stripe – racial, religious, political, whatever.
Getting you guys off on a tangent was easier than I thought it would be. Usually if I’m feeling frisky, I take it out on the Washington Post’s forum but today’s perverseness had a decidely religious bent.
Truth be told, I’ve never been a very good Christian and I probably never will be.
This is Ombud and I am outta here…………
August 20th, 2008 at 11:43 pm
Quote…”When a person is made to think that they will fall away if they leave their SGM church, wow, there is really something wrong.”
I think this relates to Om’s fear of violence. Since the posters here have “fallen away” by no longer being under the authority of SG leaders, and have left the greatest place on earth, they are dangerously open to being pawns of the devil.
Also, Om said….”SG has a different approach to missions and if traditional missions is what you’re into, you simply are not going to be happy in an SG church. Whether you believe that Celebration or foreign missions is a better use of church money is a subjective call and good people can disagree about it.”
Celebration is missions?!! ha hahahahahhahah ha
What does the Bible say about missions?
August 21st, 2008 at 12:09 am
I’m gonna miss my new buddy….
August 21st, 2008 at 12:42 am
You know, this is so sad: a brother in Christ who brags about his works and shows no compassion for the Body of Christ, lambs who have been hurt by those entrusted with their welfare.
Poor guy.
August 21st, 2008 at 12:44 am
And by the way, you guys are walking examples of tongue control, and I am very encouraged by each of you. Thank you, sincerely, for modeling continued right thinking, gracious speech, and insistence on truth.
August 21st, 2008 at 12:54 am
So, Ombud’s one kindness was to reveal that this was nothing more than a sick game to him.
This was Dennis #2, except it wrapped up in one day.
Are we all agreed that in the future, we’ll totally ignore people who suddenly show up with inflammatory/confusing statements?
August 21st, 2008 at 12:56 am
Oh, and Jim…you won’t miss him–LOL. He is indelibly hooked.
Right, Ombud?
Well, I’d love to continue to blog endlessly, giving away the fact that, according to the gracious Ombud, I apparently have no life. However I need to go continue to prepare to spend the next school year teaching my beloved SGM ‘homeschool’ students. We are going to have a marvelous time together, I will listen to their stories and they will listen to mine and we will read great literature and study history and do math.
They will probably continue to ask me why I don’t give in and start coming to their church–some of them are mystified how anyone can survive spiritually outside SGM, some can’t wait to escape and find freedom.
But don’t worry, I just smile and affirm their parents’ choices for them (the vast majority of them are wise and good) and then return after a long day to my nonlife and peruse these blogs for sanity.
Thanks Jim and Carole and all for a dose of thought provoking and challenging conversation at the end of each day.
August 21st, 2008 at 9:03 am
Hi:
keepinstep: “Are we all agreed that in the future, we’ll totally ignore people who suddenly show up with inflammatory/confusing statements?”
I’ll agree to that, but I would graciously remind everyone here the “pray for your enemies,” practice is good as well (and not optional).
I understand what you are saying, keepinstep; these blogs unfortunately are magnets for nuts and dolts. I always tell myself I’m going to apply a three strikes rule for ignoring someone if all they want to do is be incendiary… and then I remember how patient my Savior was with me when I revolved in the outer atmosphere somewhere between universalist and agnostic. I was every bit as pathetic in my demeanor as Ombud.
God is gracious; none of us are beyond His reach. Pray for Ombud.
…pk
August 21st, 2008 at 9:41 am
I think that four “dissenting” commenters since June 7 is very low.
When someone like om shows up, I have to think the best, and assume that they are who they say they are. I’m not convinced by Om’s last statement, but it makes no difference to me either way.
The SGM’rs that have come on here are angry-this is understandable as we are calling their mother ugly.
My goal is to interact in a kind, rational manner, with the hopes that, at some point, we can reason together. I’m not always as kind as I’d like to be. I want to grow in this area.
i really wish an angry SGM’r would park here and challenge everything I’ve said. The “Lawrence” comments, which have not yet been restored, were actually helpful to me.
I changed a thing or 2 because of his comments. His input is the primary reason my avatar is a pic of my face. Not to prove a point, but because he made a valid observation.
So, I personally don’t want to jump to conclusions when we have a new guest.
Ombud’s parting shots might have been a reaction to the fact that he realized that he publicly self destructed in the course of a day. A face saving “I was just playing with you guys” is not outside of the realm of possibility.
I just don’t know, but I want to be careful not to prejudge.
So far, all of the desenters have left here angry, and since I know 2 of them, this makes me sad.
August 21st, 2008 at 9:57 am
“Ombud’s parting shots might have been a reaction to the fact that he realized that he publicly self destructed in the course of a day.”
Last time he did that, he was banned from the internet…
August 21st, 2008 at 10:30 am
Ellie,
Do you know who he is?
August 21st, 2008 at 12:24 pm
Hey Jim,
I still see your castle avatar!
Ellie,
You sneaky thing. You probably do know who Om is. Queen of the web search!
RT said,
And by the way, you guys are walking examples of tongue control, and I am very encouraged by each of you. Thank you, sincerely, for modeling continued right thinking, gracious speech, and insistence on truth.
I think that is so true. For all the anger and bitterness we are suppose to have, it didn’t show up yesterday against a very mean person.
August 21st, 2008 at 12:33 pm
@canary Try this:
Shift+Ctrl+R (PC)
Shift++R (Mac)
August 21st, 2008 at 12:36 pm
Or just clear your cache and dump your cookies, then hit refresh
Travis, I would never call you a geek, but keystrokes to refresh?
So much easier than a mouse click.
August 21st, 2008 at 12:49 pm
Thanks Travis, but nothing happened. I still see a castle. Ho-hum-dee-dum. I’m destined to never see Jim’s face…but your face makes me laugh (in a good way!). Your expression is priceless!
Jim, I’d take your advice but I have NO idea what you mean by “clear your cache and dump your cookies (are they chocolate-chip? Yum!)”. Time to call for tech support, but I think my son is out. I’ll get his help later…
August 21st, 2008 at 1:09 pm
canary-be happy with your destiny. I’d love to see the castle when I log on.
August 21st, 2008 at 1:12 pm
Canary,
Jim *made* me clear my cookies, so I would see his face every time I log onto The Refuge.
(Of course, I rather like it! Much better, in my opinion, than the castle!)
August 21st, 2008 at 1:14 pm
Yeah, come to think of it… sounds like Canary’s displaying some “lack of contentment” in God’s sovereignty. He’s got you seeing the castle for a reason, girl. (LOL!)
August 21st, 2008 at 1:22 pm
You’re right, Travis. I love castles. I repent in dust cloth and ashes…(is that how they say it?)
Carole, I’ve heard of “loosing” your cookies but never “dumping” your cookies. Boy, the things I learn on the internet.
Jim, You must look okay in order to catch a great lady like Carole!
Are you Floridians swimming in your front yard, or did the rain finally pass?
August 21st, 2008 at 1:31 pm
Ohhh….I duno…he kinda reminds me of someone….
http://www.sgmsurvivors.com/?p=29
…not mentioning any names….
August 21st, 2008 at 1:33 pm
That picture of Travis just CRACKS me up, ROFL!!!
August 21st, 2008 at 1:47 pm
canary,
Thanks for the clarification on that…. yes that does sound like an abuse of leadership and an example of pastors thinking they can mediate between God and man. That is so sad. I am fortunate to have not witnessed this (to my knowledge).
In response to some questions above as to why Ombud is here and his answer which was to just amuse himself…
Sometimes its not worth answering dumb questions from someone who only wants to cause a fight, or is only “amusing” himself. Sometimes its better and stronger to refuse to answer until they are serious in their questions, and actually care about receiving answers. Just a thought…
August 21st, 2008 at 1:56 pm
Ellie,
I wrote this last night:
“Jim,
I’ve been reading from “top side” and saw this by Ombud:
WIP -
Because deranged people are a hoot! I have no goals here. I’m just amusing myself.
This guy reminds me of Dennis. He’s just here to cause dissent. He’s probably having a great time, as he “amuses himself”. ”
You are truly the female version of James Bond.
August 21st, 2008 at 2:01 pm
Eponine,
I agree wholeheartedly that some people just don’t deserve any response. That’s why I took my cage and left the discussion! But Jim did a great jog deflecting in a calm way some of the outrageous claims yesterday’s driveby asserted. I think everyone who responded did so in a way that pleases God.
I’m so glad you have not seen any of the control alot of us did. That is so wonderful! If you are in an “exception to the rule”, and are being shown how to walk by faith, in freedom, by grace (boy, that’s a mouthful) then you are truly blessed.
I’m curious. Has anyone left your church in the past few years somewhat abruptly, mysteriously, or with no real explanation from the leaders?
August 21st, 2008 at 2:03 pm
canary,
People who see Carole and I together either think that I’m very rich, or she is very blind.
I would just thank God that love is blind. Carole is drop dead gorgeous and comes from one of those annoying (I’m not annoyed) gene-pools that causes people to not age.
August 21st, 2008 at 2:06 pm
Jim, Thanks for the chuckle! Now I’ve just got to see your pic…
August 21st, 2008 at 2:16 pm
Canary,
picture a mischieveous little kid with a buzz cut…
http://www.gravatar.com/avatar.....if&r=R
Can you see it at the above link?
August 21st, 2008 at 2:28 pm
thanks Ellie… that’s wonderful.
I’ll be 50 in Dec, and the pic is 3-4 weeks old.
The lighting in my office hides a lot of gray hair.
Let’s talk about something else….
August 21st, 2008 at 2:41 pm
Ah, phooey. Unless Jim has a crown on his stony head, I still see a castle. Boo-hoo…
August 21st, 2008 at 3:16 pm
Yes, Jim did do a good job fighting the fight when everyone could have just backed off and ignored him.
canary,
I think I have witnessed some control in the church, not particularly from the pastors, more from parents and caregroup leaders and friends. It may come from pastors, I just haven’t had enough interaction with them to see it. My interactions with pastors have been very grace filled – I really do love most of my pastors. (I’m saying most because I really don’t know some of them) I think my eyes are being opened to the control within the church slowly, and there may be much more that I’m not even seeing.
And as to someone leaving the church… it’s fairly big so I probably would not have noticed. No one that I know left “mysteriously” however I do know some people who left.
August 21st, 2008 at 3:49 pm
Eponine,
My reason for asking is that, alot of times, the problems that cause people to leave are kept private. If there is dissension over controling issues, you most likely aren’t going to hear about it.
All I can say is to seek Jesus, a relationship that does not require a mediator. Protect your freedom in Christ. You don’t sound like you are in a bad place right now. If ever you are involved in a controlling situation (where you are not free to follow your conscience) you’ll know. Okay?
I really like talking with you! You’re going to be okay.
August 21st, 2008 at 7:19 pm
canary said: <i>alot of times, the problems that cause people to leave are kept private. If there is dissension over controling issues, you most likely aren’t going to hear about it.<i>
I have *never* told anyone at my former SGM church the full story of what went on between my parents and I during my college years (very controlling behavior on my parents’ part). For some reason – I think in large part because I probably thought, and not without reason, that people at the church would back my parents and not me – I didn’t feel like I could share how I was feeling with anyone there.
August 21st, 2008 at 7:53 pm
canary saith: “All I can say is to seek Jesus, a relationship that does not require a mediator. Protect your freedom in Christ….If ever you are involved in a controlling situation (where you are not free to follow your conscience) you’ll know.”
Amen.
If you ever push them for explanations, and they push back instead of explaining – LEAVE.
August 21st, 2008 at 8:08 pm
Argh. I am having a lot of trouble with html tags lately!
August 21st, 2008 at 9:51 pm
Yeah and if it did get around that someone had left over control issues, I’d probably hear it as “so and so isn’t doing well anymore…” typical sgm response.
I’m not in a bad situation now because I’m still in the process of figuring out my beliefs. I do have serious problems with some controlling parents of “children” who are adults. However I am not one to encourage friends to disrespect their parents – because they may not see it as controlling as I do. I would appreciate prayers as I seek God in this and learn about Christ and my sin through what the Bible says more than what I hear from others.
August 22nd, 2008 at 12:23 am
Eponine,
Learn about Christ and the grace He gives us. Learn about your freedom in Him, that God is good, gentle, and merciful. SGM enslaves the soul by only teaching about sin. There is so much more to the story! Our souls cannot be satisfied with only half the story. There was a crucifixion, but there was also an empty tomb and a risen Lord, who right now intercedes for you. He is your real Mediator, and because of Him, the Father sees not your sin, but His Son’s blood which took your sins away!
August 22nd, 2008 at 10:05 am
canary saith: “Learn about Christ and the grace He gives us. Learn about your freedom in Him, that God is good, gentle, and merciful. SGM enslaves the soul by only teaching about sin…Our souls cannot be satisfied with only half the story. There was a crucifixion, but there was also an empty tomb and a risen Lord, who right now intercedes for you.”
This statement is so important to understanding why the SGM experience is so unusual, and so unsatisfying the longer one pursues the SGM experience.
SGM steers members toward its own definition of “the gospel.” The apostles understood that Jesus himself is the center of the gospel message (revealed most clearly in John, Ephesians/Colossians, Hebrews and Revelation). Unfortunately, Jesus himself - the unique Person with whom we have fellowship – is invisible within SGM’s gospel.
The proof is on SGM’s own website. Look through their site for Jesus – he’s not there. Look even at their FAQs and pages on their beliefs. Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, is the object of prepositional phrases (”the gospel of Jesus Christ“), but he’s not the object of salvation and worship there. I believe their omission of a real, living Jesus demonstrates the SGM understanding of Jesus: he’s merely a vehicle for the gospel they teach (living only to die on the cross).
SGM’s gospel doesn’t teach members how to experience a direct, living relationship with the risen & all-powerful Jesus through his indwelling presence. SGM’s gospel keeps members at a respectful distance from Jesus – the real, living Person – by focusing on topics (cross, sin, salvation, local church, sound doctrine) that are not in themselves Jesus, and don’t necessarily lead to a deepening relationship with Jesus.
How to find the true gospel of Jesus Christ? Ask the Spirit of Christ within you to reveal Jesus himself to you. Ask him to make you a disciple and follower of Jesus himself – not the Jesus SGM offers to you, but the Jesus that the word of God offers. Ask him to strengthen your personal relationship with Jesus, as you get to know him by reading the word of God itself.
You must have revelation from the Spirit of Christ, given through his own word, to replace the system SGM has devised to interpret and keep you at a distance from the living, breathing, speaking and loving Jesus.
August 22nd, 2008 at 11:00 am
KIS,
Bravo! Well said!
August 22nd, 2008 at 3:37 pm
KIS,
I agree!!!!!
“by focusing on topics (cross, sin, salvation, local church, sound doctrine) that are not in themselves Jesus, and don’t necessarily lead to a deepening relationship with Jesus.
I love that word topics.
I admit since leaving several months ago, I really struggle with connecting with Jesus.
August 22nd, 2008 at 3:59 pm
Kis, now I get your name. Gal 5:25 ,
“Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit.”
right?
August 22nd, 2008 at 5:04 pm
Kali saith: “Kis, now I get your name. Gal 5:25”
you’re right.
August 22nd, 2008 at 8:21 pm
Gal. 5:25 – what a great verse! I guess if you don’t live by the Spirit, you are certainly out of step with Him. It is the same as “having the mind of Christ”. I want to agree with Him, so I have to think like Him, so I have to know HIm, so I can know what He thinks! Did you get that?
August 22nd, 2008 at 8:50 pm
canary saith: “I want to agree with Him, so I have to think like Him, so I have to know HIm, so I can know what He thinks! Did you get that?”
Amen! That’s why we need to focus on the words and thoughts of God himself in the Bible – not on secondary writings, commentaries, etc. (as good as they may be…). The power to renew our minds is most potent in his own words and stories.
August 22nd, 2008 at 10:53 pm
keepinstep,
That’s the truth! His word is truly alive!
August 22nd, 2008 at 10:55 pm
Jim,
I don’t know what happened, but I can see your picture. Carole, he’s a cutie-pe-tutie!
Sorry, Jim. I won’t embarrass you anymore about how you look so much better than your castle…hee-hee.
August 22nd, 2008 at 11:30 pm
I’m still seeing the castle. But here goes my gravatar test.
Whoo Hoo! I did it. Well, my daughter and I did it.
August 23rd, 2008 at 9:06 am
Look at Gracie’s gravatar!
August 23rd, 2008 at 9:17 am
Canary…
(I think so…)
Gracie… LOVE the gravatar!!
August 23rd, 2008 at 3:17 pm
Gracie, What a pretty flower!
August 28th, 2008 at 7:11 pm
“Brent Detwiler is just like Jim Elliot”
Does that mean he is dead and someone ate him?
(Feel free to erase this at your discretion. The stand up in me just needed to say it.)
August 29th, 2008 at 12:23 pm
If you’re all so concerned about this, why don’t you just email Brent and ask him about his motivation. His email is on the church website.
I’m sure CJ’s contact info wouldn’t be that hard to track down either… but actually talking with them isn’t really the goal here is it?
August 29th, 2008 at 12:30 pm
I think it would be great to have Brent respond here. I wouldn’t be surprised if he reads this forum.
August 29th, 2008 at 1:15 pm
dolph,
You assume much.
Read more of the site and see how well I’ve done with trying to communication with SGM leadership.
I’ve moved on to public responses made to public actions. I’ll re-read the original post to see if I questioned his motivation. I’m not concerned with motivation-I’m concerned with public misrepresentation.
August 29th, 2008 at 3:57 pm
Hi Dolph:
Apologies for the lengthy response here, but I wanted to write something that could both answer your post and also be copied and pasted by me into the hundreds of future responses I will give to the hundreds of the carbon-copied posts like yours… because, quite frankly, they are the confetti of these websites, so vast in number they are.
You said: “If you’re all so concerned about this, why don’t you just email Brent and ask him about his motivation. His email is on the church website.
“I’m sure CJ’s contact info wouldn’t be that hard to track down either… but actually talking with them isn’t really the goal here is it?”
I would certainly agree that Brent isn’t hard to find at all… especially with a subtly, humbly-titled website like http://www.brentdetwiler.com. And don’t copy the last paragraph on the title page there for me, I already know that his fan club and not Brent himself has posted this (nice picture, though).
The whole point is that in the past, emails and phone calls and letters (oh my) are usually met with a High School the Gritty Non-Musicalresponse: a conference card (”observation”) being sent to the questioner or inquirer, then same questioner/inquirer has to go to the prinicpal’s (senior pastor’s) office so that this “observation” can be endlessly dissected; this leads to nowhere, the word “sanctification” is sullied in this process and eventually the questioner is silenced by one of many methods (just read the stories on these sites); among these are the scarlet letters G and S, the great catch-all of being accused of gossip and slander. While sarcasm and emotionalism are present on any blog, I think Jim and others here have exhibited more than a scripturally-required amount of self-control, and when they go overboard they are quick to ask forgiveness and/or acknowledge their sin. The prophet Elijah would make us look like Miss Manners in terms of both propriety and sarcasm.
Websites like this are indicative that it has reached the point to call a duck a duck, as calling it a dove that happens to honk and quack doesn’t do anyone any good anymore.
There are many episodes in Holy Scripture where men were called out, publicly, by name in the context of being corrected; the Apostle Paul never had a problem with it, and these episodes are recorded for us in a document that was a lot more public than the internet ever hoped to be at one time: The Holy Bible. And now with the net, those names are available to probably billions. The names of the guilty have not been changed to protect either the guilty or innocent. All parties’ names have remained preserved in these documents, and for two thousand years millions of people knew that “Hymenaeus and Philetus” erred (one example among many). Simply google “Paul named names,” and this would keep anyone busy for quite some time chasing their theological tail around the mulberry bush on the doctrine of propriety.
I hope this didn’t go above and beyond responding to your post, but I didn’t want to send out a simplistic mail bomb, and I really wanted to go beyond and finish this message without the pettiness of a statement like “…but actually talking with them isn’t really the goal here is it?”
If you were hoping for a quick drive-by with no response, my apologies for not meeting your expectations. We are simply sheep who observe and report, and while we love and respect our leaders, we do test all things (the greek word for “all” means… all) so that we may hold fast to that which is true.
…pk
August 29th, 2008 at 8:22 pm
dolph,
We’d LOVE to have a discussion with some of the SGM leaders, but they won’t talk on this site. We tried individually, in our own ways to speak to them before we left, but they didn’t want to hear. So, a public discussion on this forum would be very welcome! I, myself, have plenty of questions I would like to ask, in a very respectful way, of course. An open debate might bring reform, if only it would happen. Like Jim has said over and over, he will make SGM heroes on this blog if reform were to take place.
Dolph, you should enter into a little due diligence before posting. You’ve made some bad assumptions. Welcome, anyway.
August 29th, 2008 at 9:57 pm
I wonder if Dolph will respond back or be just another drive by? The typical drop a grenade approach then run away and not respond.
Time will tell.
August 29th, 2008 at 11:42 pm
Steve240,
I wonder, why is it that none of these driveby’s can enter into a calm, logical debate with us? Why only fling poo? Why not answer our questions? I’m ready to be convinced if I’m wrong. It’s just strange, like these guys can’t think clearly for themselves.
August 29th, 2008 at 11:43 pm
This will be the last time I suggest this, but here it is: can we now finally agree to ignore these people who drop the same bomb-load, once or twice each week? It’s such a waste of time replying to them, and takes the entire discussion off-track.
If there really is some Pavlovian urge to respond to every single person who drops in (which some love to see and exploit), there should be an FAQ link that can be referenced, as the single response to a dozen recurring, irritating questions.
August 30th, 2008 at 8:36 am
KeepInStep:
I think I am finally with you. Apologies for the Pavlovian responses, as I am still a rookie in many ways to blogging, but I never think it’s a waste of time to disarm every petty pot-shot (I might feel differently after my, oh, six-thousandth one). It does knock the discussion off track, however… I’m in wholehearted agreement with you on that, and your idea of funneling this traffic rapidly into a FAQ is a good idea.
Back on track: In terms of what our SGM missions truly are, and in light of the great commission: Has anyone read our SGM Perspectives booklet on missiology? Any thoughts?
…pk
August 30th, 2008 at 8:47 am
Keep-
The FAQ is a GREAT idea.
Or FSA maybe.
Frequently Slung Accusations.
August 30th, 2008 at 9:15 am
Or, to quote canary, FFP.
August 30th, 2008 at 5:13 pm
Jim,
I was going to say “crap” but I’m way too refined…tee-hee.
Keep,
I agree with you. On the other hand, letting some of the drive-by’s spray their bullets only proves a little more of what we are saying. For instance, the matter of being able to debate with us calmly is really important, yet so many drive-bys just can’t do it. I say again that, in our time at SGM, we were so undermined by leadership in our own ability to think for ourselves, that half these driver-byers probably don’t know WHY they believe that we are wrong. They just come on in a defensive mode to defend their “pure and spotless church”. It proves the case we are laying out.
However, some need to be totally ignored, like Ombud/Dennis. Titus 3 says, “But avoid stupid and foolish controversies…As for a man who is factious, after admonishing him a first and second time, reject him from your fellowship and have nothing more to do with him.” This does not apply to a person who disagrees with us (as that would make us like the organization we left), but for someone who is bent on and enjoys causing division. So I guess we’ll have to “sniff” the air a bit when a new person comes on. If the air smells suspicious, I grab my cage and head for the surface. Noxious mines can prove deadly.
Just a little tweety-bird advice.
June 12th, 2009 at 8:49 pm
I happened to stumble upon this blog today. I hadn’t thought much about this issue since we left Fairfax in ‘86. Eerily it feels like yesterday and the issues are unchanged. Since then we have been on quite a journey. We have been to numerous charismatic churches and stumbled upon the reformed faith as a result of reading books by Francis Shaeffer, Tim Keller, Ravi Zacharias and some of the professors at Covenant Seminary in St. Louis.
We had heard that CJ had subscribed to the reformed faith and were very excited about it until we spoke to friends cemented into the highest levels of leadership and sensed the same control issues and elitist attitudes and dialogue we had encountered when we left.
My husband went to Covenant Seminary, graduated and was a pastor for a while. We went more for the purpose of learning and getting deeper into the word than for the purpose of actually being a Pastor. Learning the original languages and about historical, cultural and theological context was so incredibly helpful in gaining a more balanced perspective. I grew up in methodist and baptist churches and my husband grew up in a catholic church.
Aside from all the examples I could talk about theologically one experience stands out in my mind and prevails to this day. We still drop in every now and then to SGC in Fairfax. When we first left we attended a PCA Presbyterian church in CT. We all felt like we had been in a desert and just found an oasis. After attending for a while and getting comfortable with the freedom we were experiencing taking part in the decision making in the church, we met a man who was very rough and drove a motorcycle. He was tattooed from head to toe before tattoo’s became a mainstream fad in the culture. We were going to New York city to hear Tim Keller speak. Tim Keller is author and Pastor in the PCA in NYC and one of the most revered in the PCA and on the contemporary Christian scene. There were several thousand people there and our friend ‘Ronnie’ listened intently. After the service our friend went to the front and we grew a bit anxious because though he was very intelligent he looked like one of ‘Hells Angels” and was equally tough. We followed and watched as he laid into Tim Keller giving his critique of a particular part of the sermon. Our friend came back and as we walked out he was a changed man.”That dude is okay!” he said. He had confronted Tim on an issue and Tim had responded, “Thank you so much for pointing that out to me; I thought about that when I said it and you have confirmed my doubt, Thank you very much for bringing it to my attention.” It brought a similar incident to mind when CJ visited our Church in Fairfax and gave an example of a time when someone approached him and he basically rebuked the guy and let everyone know that they need not bother him and to pray about it when they doubted something he said and not to bother him with it. The contrast was striking and incidentally Ronnie was right on.
When we left FCC then now SGC in Fairfax, we had all these preconceived notions about other denominations and how we were fundamentally the cutting edge church. I was very shocked how mature the Christians were in those churches (PCA) and the attitude of the Pastors and how they truly were on the same level as everybody else. There wasn’t a sharp division and ‘in’ group. It was so different I was astonished.
The SGC adaptation of the reformed faith was anything but the reformed faith as I was experiencing it. The expository preaching was as if I was hearing the word of God for the first time. The topics were discussed because the scriptures address them. The topic of homosexuality is clearly addressed in Romans for example. I personally feel much safer when the confines of scripture shape the message. I believe there is less opportunity and temptation to manipulate people in that structure.
Lastly, the governing of the church is like comparing communism to capitalism. I could go into great detail but suffice it to say it is a question of freedom and the opportunity to make choices and take responsibility for our choices and have unity with diversity vs uniformity and authoritarianism. To me this blog is like the free press. The free press provides a level of accountability outside a closed system. Let them come and reason with the body openly and humbly because we do see through a glass darkly.
YT
June 12th, 2009 at 11:11 pm
Hey Lightspeak!
Glad you posted. I was in FCC from the early 80’s to the early 90’s. You could say I grew up there. Wonder if we know each other?
To me this blog is like the free press. The free press provides a level of accountability outside a closed system. Let them come and reason with the body openly and humbly because we do see through a glass darkly.
Amen!
June 13th, 2009 at 12:38 am
Canary,
We did as well. We were there when they began. As a matter of fact we went to tag when Larry and CJ started. I must confess I miss the early days. They were a group of very gifted young men. I often wonder what would have happened if they had been properly trained and had the richness of the reformed theology to divide the word of God. The PCA had it’s problems with controlling leaders as well but they did have mechanisms built into the church government to deal with it. There is also a measure of safety in having a rich history and a developed systematic theology.
We may know each other. We were in Gary Stegall’s homegroup.
June 13th, 2009 at 12:26 pm
lightspeak,
We were also there when FCC began. There was such enthusiasm for Jesus during those days. The sense of family was strong. However, the focus went to building a New Testament church, which seemed to take our eyes off Jesus. The leaders were very young. In 1982 or ‘83, Brent came in and the focus changed even more.
Can’t remember all the care groups I was in. I knew the pastor’s wife pretty well, but that changed after Brent moved in. The leaders’ put their attention on raising up leaders and training them. We didn’t get to that place til near the time we left, so my relationship with the P.’s wife changed dramatically. I don’t blame her. She was just going with the flow.
Did you ever attend Saturday Night Alive with Benny and Renny? Those were exciting times!
Glad you found your freedom, lightspeak!
June 14th, 2009 at 1:09 am
Yes we did! Remember Larry’s shout for Jesus. LOL
June 14th, 2009 at 2:04 pm
Lightspeak-welcome!
Excellent post. I hope you hang around.
August 22nd, 2009 at 6:46 am
That’s what I could never understand…………why plant a church where there are 20 more in the immediate area?
Unless you think you have a market on God. (and that reeks of superiority, arrogance and presumption.)
August 23rd, 2009 at 12:26 pm
Hey all. First time being here and first time posting. Look, I’m not gonna try and hide who I am – Brent’s son. Many of you may have at least heard me, in at least reference, cause I’ve stirred up plenty of trouble as of late. Thank God he is at work in me though and there is much He has shown me over this past year amongst my seemingly uncountable errors and sins.
I want to get it clear though I’m not here to cause a ruckus and I don’t want to fight over issues. I don’t believe I could sit here, call myself a Christian in front of everyone, and then precede to bash everyone.
I guess what I’m trying to say is I don’t want to judge anyone who goes here. I’d assume that most people who post have had some form of a bad experience with SGM. I don’t know your stories and I’m not going to make judgements about them or you as people.
Hey, if anyone has questions they want to ask me, feel free to send me an email – sadetwiler@gmail.com. I’m not even sure right now why I’m posting this or saying this – it’s just on my heart to do so.
Anyhoo, that’s it for now.
In Christ to the Brothers,
Stephen Detwiler
August 23rd, 2009 at 12:35 pm
Stephen,
Thank you for posting.
Here’s my concern-anyone can say they are anyone here. To protect you and your family, would you please call me ASAP?
321-five zero four-four five four two.
I won’t ask you any uncomfortable questions, I just need to know that you are really you.
August 23rd, 2009 at 2:01 pm
Stephen called me. He is who he claims to be.
August 23rd, 2009 at 2:08 pm
Stephen,
I’m praying for you and your family. Sincerely so.
P.S. I don’t mean that in a condescending way. Just wanted to be clear. You and yours are going through a very rough time. Know that there are very sincere and loving prayers being lifted up for you all.
August 23rd, 2009 at 3:36 pm
Stephen,
Welcome! Thank you for sharing your heart. I add my prayers for you and your family to canary’s and others who post here. Blessings in Jesus!
August 23rd, 2009 at 3:38 pm
By the way, Canary, hi! Always good to “hear” your voice. Love you.
August 23rd, 2009 at 3:45 pm
Gracie,
Hope your summer hasn’t been too hot. As usual, your compassion for those here continues to inspire. Love you, too!
August 23rd, 2009 at 10:26 pm
I’m praying for you too–but I think you knew that. =)
(and I’m seriously not just saying that either.) lol
August 25th, 2009 at 9:44 am
Lightspeak,
I know you and you know me. We were friends of the Stegalls for many years. You even took photographs of me and my husband (which are still some of my favorites). It’s so good to hear about your time after you left SGM. I’ve enjoyed seeing you at FFX in the recent past and hope to see you again if you visit.
Stephen,
What a courageous thing to do on this website. I was in the FFX church when your dad came in. We are praying for you and your family. None of us is perfect and our two sons have made their share of foolish decisions. But God is so good and full of mercy. I know He is working in our lives and yours too! Thanks for sharing with us.
August 25th, 2009 at 12:39 pm
Stephen,
I agree with Mack above…….
imagine what would happen if the leaders of SGM would show that same
courage and humility?
August 25th, 2009 at 2:01 pm
A friend of mine said something wise to me, yesterday. I will paraphrase: Some men are in the “business” of pastoring. Some have been called from the womb to care for God’s people. Isn’t that profound? It is pretty easy to tell the difference between the two types…
Stephen, I also agree with Mack. Well said, Mack! (Have I said this before? I was in the FFX church when Brent came in – we probably know each other. Maybe you have said that to me all ready, but I forget).
August 25th, 2009 at 3:40 pm
Call me crazy, but does the gift of mercy appear to be lacking in some of the dissenters who visit here? If we lack the ability to show mercy (and actually FEEL the pain of others in order to be a part of God’s plan for their lives), do we not also shoot ourselves in the foot as it relates to walking in grace?
I’ve said it before and I’ll beat the dead horse again, I don’t need Mickey, Brent, or Larry to acknowledge their responsibility (which is good because I doubt I will ever rank high enough to “deserve” such a thing), however, shouldn’t they feel some need to do it since they are pastors. At least 2 of the 3 above have said from the pulpit that the responsibility is greater on a pastor to care for his flock.
I spoke to someone who was treated horribly recently in regards to the Grace fiasco and this person told me Mickey said he would be willing to sit down and discuss any situation with any person who has left or been run off from the church. Personally, and I said this to the fellow I was speaking to, I think the “pastors” should be actively pursuing these “misfits” with the express purpose of humbling themselves and acknowledging their failings. Many folks are laying along the side of the road bloody and bruised and can’t drag themselves into Mickey’s office to run the risk of beating their heads against the wall. I would be one of those right now.
I will be transparent for a moment. I have spent the last 3 years trying to decide if I even want a relationship with God after what I saw done to others and had done to myself in a SGM church. Did I make mistakes? Absolutely. Would I do things differently now in the light of the beginnings of healing? Absolutely. But, my Father NEVER turned his back on me. He never laid the hammer of judgement down on me. He never closed a door in my face and refused to have relationship with me. NEVER.
When someone comes on here and behaves the way some of these “loyal” SGMers do, I see no mercy in their words or attitudes. More like…”if I don’t see it, it doesn’t exist and those who are laying there bloodied and broken just need to shut up”.
My husband keeps worrying about me coming on here to read because he sees me get upset. I know now that this site is playing a part in God drawing me back to Himself. Why? Because the contrast between many SGM leaders/some members and God is becoming clearer and clearer to me. I am now more determined than ever to put myself in HIS hands. Let HIM love on me. Let HIM sing over me. Let HIM show me what He looks like. Learn to love HIM first and not lump Him in with his creature…including so-called men of God. And get my priorities in line–
My God
My Family
My church, job, friends
etc. etc.
Not the SGM way–
My God (throught leading in the church)
My church
My family, job, friends.
And yes, the SGM order was said from the pulpit by Mr. D himself.
This is hard. But, for me, it’s time to pull the baby out of the drain where he got stuck while I was throwing out the bath water. What I don’t want to do is try to get all that dirty water back too because I assume they are one and the same.
Please pray for me. I somehow know in my spirit that He’s calling me and drawing me but, I admit, I am afraid.
August 25th, 2009 at 3:58 pm
Hey Canary,
My husband and I were there practically from the beginning of the church. Even attended the meeting where Benny and Dr. John were making plans to start the church. We probably do know each other. Thanks for the encouragement!
August 25th, 2009 at 4:15 pm
I Got Out… It’s difficult to sift through all of the crap we were knee deep in while in SGM, isn’t it? I’ve shared this before, but it’s been awhile…
When Jim and I left our SGM church, I went through the process of scrutinizing everything I believed about God, weighing everything in light of Scripture, not what I had learned from SGM. Now, I’m not saying that everything SGM teaches is scripturally unsound. But a lot of it is. A lot of it is their own personal preferences, inflicted on the sheep to adhere to, (even if God is moving them in a different direction). And it’s important for all of us to know the difference, to believe in the Word of God, not SGM’s made up rules and mandates.
What I found at the end of that process was a loving, kind-hearted God, Who loves me, and He has picked me up, dusted me off, and taught me, from the ground up, what being His child looks like. And it doesn’t resemble the legalistic, authoritarian, “Do it my way or hit the highway” view that SGM holds.
It is easy to get God and pastors/leaders mixed up… especially in SGM, as the pastors and leaders are exalted so highly. But they are mere men, just like you and me (okay… I’m a woman, but it’s all the same!).
You are on the right path! Pursue Him and Him only! Forget the man-made rules and look to our Father for His wisdom and guidance. He will not let you down, nor will He lead you astray.
You are in my prayers… rest in Him!
August 25th, 2009 at 4:31 pm
I Got Out
With regards to transparency, the jiggler appreciates what you said and finds himself in the same boat. One of these days it will be better.
sic semper tyrannis
\m/ >.< \m/
August 25th, 2009 at 5:16 pm
I Got Out,
Transparency takes courage after what you have been through. Good for you!
When I first stumbled on the Survivor’s Site, I cried the whole first day as I read that others were or had been in the same sgm nightmare I had been in. A great healing took place over the next few days.
I am so happy that the Lord is drawing you back. He is wooing you. He will show you what good things to keep and what bad things to let go right down that drain. It is a little like deprogramming.
The Holy Spirit is so gentle, so tender with us. I pray peace over you as you respond to His call to come home. Home, where it will be familiar, safe, and restful, a place He never wants you to leave again. He has left the 99 sheep to go after you, the one who was cast down. Isn’t that beautiful?
Like Carole said, rest in Him! There is a Sabbath rest for every believer (Hebrews).
August 25th, 2009 at 5:45 pm
Hey, all.
I’ve not posted before – on any site – and am undecided about how much I should say. It would be helpful if I knew if the Atlanta SGM church has been mentioned in the past. I’ve spent quite a bit of time looking (and having my feelings about SGM confirmed), but have not found any discussion of the situations that congregation has been dealing with for the past 5 years.
I got out almost 1 year ago, have dealt with many mixed emotions, but know beyond a shadow of doubt that it was the right thing to do. There is life – abundantly – after SGM
August 25th, 2009 at 5:52 pm
It will be better, my friends. It WILL be better!
Man, reading this stuff gets me so fired up.
Why won’t these pastors come forward and repent, seeking out those they’ve damaged, as I Got Out said. What arrogance…”my door is open to anyone I’ve hurt…(you) come and talk with me.” I thought it was the the other way around. I thought it was the abuser’s responsibility to go to the person he abused and ask for forgiveness.
Don’t these men see that it’s their darn arrogance and pride (and smug self-righteousness) that caused this mess in the first place? And now their attempt to apologize wreaks of the same arrogance and pride!
Good grief!!
Truth is, most of these men don’t have a clue as to how many or who they’ve hurt. (And the number is great.) Heck, they’re not even sure HOW they hurt them. How sad is that?!? Most of them still believe what they did/do is “biblical”! How could you even believe an apology was sincere knowing what they feel?
Wouldn’t it merely be damage control?
(I Got Out, I’m praying for you.)
August 25th, 2009 at 6:50 pm
Hey I Got Out,
You are so right. God has always had His hand on you and yours. I’m excited to see what He is doing in your lives. You were in SGM much longer than I was, and it took me years to work it out. But I see Him at work in you. I see Him wooing, washing, healing and establishing Himself in your life. Do not doubt that. He used you to speak encouragement to me last time we were together. Remember? You have a much greater capacity now to understand grace than ever before. You are on the right road and it is beautiful. As far as being afraid, I’m going to go ahead and quote Twila Paris again (can’t go wrong there, right Ellie?):
I am not afraid anymore
You have opened all the windows, opened all the doors
I am not afraid anymore
I feel the wind of freedom like I never did before
The Light is filling up the corners, dancing on the floor,
I am not afraid anymore.
No room for fear, no room, NO ROOM!
No room for fear, perfect love is living here…
(back to the beginning)
Love you, IGO!
*For those of you who don’t know, I Got Out is my big sister.
August 25th, 2009 at 6:53 pm
Ming,
You’re a good friend! You’re the type of friend Jesus calls us to be, not a “fair weather” friend. Good for you!
God gave you that gift…the gift of seeing and feeling what other people are feeling. In our self-centered world that doesn’t come naturally. Continue to use it to encourage and minister to your friends.
God also gave you the ability to “think for yourself”, rather than believe everything you hear. Once again, good for you! Filter EVERYTHING through the grid of scripture FOR YOURSELF, not second-hand, and continue to listen to the voice of the Holy Spirit. He’s always there, even when things appear totally confusing, He’s there to guide you through. He’s that small voice that keeps telling you when something “does” or “doesn’t” seem right.
August 25th, 2009 at 6:57 pm
Lee,
Welcome! I am living in the Atlanta area now, but my PDI experience was elsewhere. I have kept as far away as possible from SGM churches since moving away from the city where our bad experience happened, so I personally know nothing of current goings-on in the ATL church. Others can correct me if I am wrong, but I’m fairly sure there was some discussion about Atlanta in Set Free’s story over at survivors. Yes? I will not try to reiterate her story, but you can find it as its own post there.
August 25th, 2009 at 7:10 pm
Oh Gracie, I remember you mentioning a sister. Wow, this is amazing. I Got Out, your baby sis has been such a lifter-up of the saints on this blog. I know she can help you through your time of upheavel. She’s been through it, like all of us. Know that we are all here for you!
August 25th, 2009 at 7:13 pm
Lee,
Welcome. I have not heard of anything with the Atlanta church. Just wanted to say “hello”, and I’m so glad you are doing well post sgm.
August 25th, 2009 at 10:57 pm
Hi Mack,
last name begin with M? I think I know who you are. Do you know here the Stegals are?
August 26th, 2009 at 8:31 am
Hey lightspeak,
Yes, my last name does begin with M? The Stegalls are living back in Fredericksburg. I have her e-mail if you want it. We haven’t been in contact as much lately mainly, I think, because they are both working and were doing some stuff to their new house. Call me.
August 27th, 2009 at 12:11 am
AKS,
Thank you… lol Honestly though I’m far from being the friend that I need to be to others. Far to often do my own desires flair up and try to take center stage instead of casting the light on what would be best for my friends (or anyone else for that matter).
And I promise I’m not trying to be humble or anything it’s just a fact, I’ve got a long long way to go. And I realize that flattery never got anyone anywhere. =)
PS. Do you know me? Cause I have no idea who you are. lol But thanks, you’re to kind. =)
August 27th, 2009 at 10:30 am
I Got Out made a great statement above…
“I’ve said it before and I’ll beat the dead horse again, I don’t need Mickey, Brent, or Larry to acknowledge their responsibility (which is good because I doubt I will ever rank high enough to “deserve” such a thing), however, shouldn’t they feel some need to do it since they are pastors. At least 2 of the 3 above have said from the pulpit that the responsibility is greater on a pastor to care for his flock.
I spoke to someone who was treated horribly recently in regards to the Grace fiasco and this person told me Mickey said he would be willing to sit down and discuss any situation with any person who has left or been run off from the church. Personally, and I said this to the fellow I was speaking to, I think the “pastors” should be actively pursuing these “misfits” with the express purpose of humbling themselves and acknowledging their failings. Many folks are laying along the side of the road bloody and bruised and can’t drag themselves into Mickey’s office to run the risk of beating their heads against the wall. I would be one of those right now.”
This is something that I never understood, nor probably ever will. The fact that SGM pastors/leaders think that it’s up to the individual to pursue them to “make things right”, to confront these pastors/leaders of their sins against them is mind boggling! It is their sin that has hurt God’s people.
They know who they have hurt, who they have sinned against and it is their responsibility to seek those folks out, to repent to them (and God!!) and ask for forgiveness. Usually, they have been made aware of their sin by those who have been sinned against… but even if they haven’t, what about the Holy Spirit convicting them? This is scary stuff! They are either immune to the prodding of the Holy Spirit, or they just don’t care that they have sinned against God and His sheep, destroyed people in their arrogance and pride… destroyed their lives, destroyed their faith.
This attitude, to me, is the height of arrogance! “If you call me and set up an appointment, I will be more than happy to discuss this situation with you.” HUH???
I will never be convinced that they have no idea of their sins. Christians have the Holy Spirit, Who is faithful to convict us and change us, if we only humble ourselves, seek repentance, and forgiveness, from our Holy God first and foremost, then those we have sinned against.
I say it’s time for SGM leaders/pastors to man up! Accept your responsibility and pick up the phone… send an email… choose to do the right thing! You need to take the first steps toward “making things right”, toward forgiveness! I know this could be a very daunting task, as the list of those sinned against is very long indeed… But it is the right thing to do, the biblical thing to do… and, in not taking the first step, it speaks volumes!… and not in a very complimentary way.
If these pastors/leaders can’t even accomplish this task, how can anyone have any confidence in them at all?… to follow them, to look up to them, to seek guidance from them when they themselves aren’t walking out biblical principles themselves and seeking to serve God and follow Him in all areas of their lives?
When I see pastors/leaders stepping up to the plate, seeking out those they have sinned against, of their own accord (not because they have been reminded by the ones sinned against!… kind of like a “V-8 moment”) I will again be full of hope that SGM can change, that they want to change. But as long as their arrogance and pride permeate the whole organization, there is no hope left in me for SGM. This is, indeed, a very sad thing.
May God continue to have mercy on SGM…
August 27th, 2009 at 11:19 am
Carole,
Thanks for what you wrote.
As long as these leaders can get away with blame-shifting their sin and are supported by their leaders, all the way to the top…this will continue.
It doesn’t matter if the actions of a “Family” pastor are causing a child to stumble, a child who has been abused and hospitalized as a result of this abuse. A child who has witnessed this “Family” pastor heroically minister to those within SGM.
Even when professionals are attributing his abandonment of this child to her difficulty in healing.
He remains insulated and protected.
“Man up?”
August 28th, 2009 at 1:47 am
I have a question for you all. Indulge me for a minute if you would…
At what point do we move on? Why does everyone feel the need to continue bashing SGM? I feel like SGM didn’t handle the situation with my dad in the best manner. There are plenty of ways through this situation I feel SGM has wronged my family and parents. But, what good would it do for me to go around telling everyone what a terrible organization SGM was? How would that honor God?
Yes, I admit – SGM is not perfect (isn’t that a surprise?)! But it’s still a great group of churches. They strive to spread the Gospel (the most important thing ever!) to all corners of the world. In fact, according to their accounting records they spent 3.6 million dollars in outreach (almost half of their expenses) last year alone in doing just that!
I think what I’m trying to say is: Why can’t we love SGM? Yes, SGM can mess up in ways. But, no person - no ministry is perfect. The thing they do have right, however, is the Gospel. Shouldn’t that be the ONE thing that unites all Christians together? Can we not (and I’m including myself in this) overlook faults of each other and just focus on advancing the Gospel as one family?
Take a step back with me for a second, so we can see this from a different angle. Let’s say your brother, or sister, sins against you in some way… They steal something from you for example. Let’s say then that the individual never comes and seeks your forgiveness. Won’t you and shouldn’t you forgive them anyways? Shouldn’t we take them in and still love them like before?
Now, how is that different from another Christian or Christian organization?! According to God, isn’t that our family?!
Mark 3:31-35
”31Then Jesus’ mother and brothers arrived. Standing outside, they sent someone in to call him. 32A crowd was sitting around him, and they told him, ‘Your mother and brothers are outside looking for you.’
33′Who are my mother and my brothers?’ he asked.
34Then he looked at those seated in a circle around him and said, ‘Here are my mother and my brothers! 35Whoever does God’s will is my brother and sister and mother.’”
Doesn’t Sovereign Grace, and those in it, fit that category? If it was your “blood” family, would we talk about them the same we do about SGM? There are things that SGM does that people don’t like, but why do we feel we need to inform the world about it?
I feel in my heart and conscience that God would be pleased if we forgave SGM and dropped any grudge or displeasure with it and worked along side it instead to further the Gospel together. What kind of an example would that be to unbelievers?
I hope I don’t come across as bossy or preachy in any of this. I really just felt the need to say something. Many of you may disagree with me and that is up to you. I don’t mean to start an argument or debate, just as a fellow Christian and brother sharing a thought from my heart.
I struggle in the same way, maybe not towards Sovereign Grace but towards individuals in my life. I have not perfected ANY of the things I’ve shared… They are just thoughts from things circling in my head. Thanks guys. =)
August 28th, 2009 at 7:52 am
Hi Stephen,
First off, you don’t come across as preachy at all! I appreciate your demeanor and attitude.
Okay… where to start with your questions?
You asked “At what point do we move on?” and “Why can’t we love SGM?”… and then wrapped up with the comparison of a “blood” brother or sister sinning against you and the biblical mandate to forgive them…
What you are not seeing here is that we DO love SGM! Which is why we are calling out for reform in their organization! Jim and I have both said on numerous occasions that we agree with a lot of SGM’s beliefs… just not the manner in which they go about enforcing those beliefs.
I understand your confusion regarding the forgiveness issue, though… I really do. I can only speak for myself here… this blog and my views have nothing to do with lack of forgiveness on my part toward SGM. I have forgiven them… but the bigger picture in this is that SGM’s hyper authoritarian beliefs and actions CAN NOT continue, as this damages the body of Christ!… and their SOP is NOT BIBLICAL! We can call out for reform and call our SGM brothers out on their sinful error, while forgiving them at the same time.
One thing about love… if you truly love someone, when you see them harming themselves or others over and over and over again, you will confront them and do whatever it takes to help them see where they are wrong and how they are hurting God’s people and stop them from perpetuating the harm they inflict on others.
If this were just an anomaly within SGM, if this was something that had happened “a time or two”, this blog would not be here. But the fact is, this is SGM’s standard, this is what they do, this is how they treat those that disagree with them… and it’s wrong, it’s not biblical, it hurts those that God loves, it damages lives and it damages faith in a mighty God. How can that ever be swept under the rug?
To get to your comparison… you are right about forgiving a brother or sister who steals from you and doesn’t ask your forgiveness. I must reiterate here… forgiveness is not the issue! I have forgiven SGM, just as I would forgive my brother/sister. BUT if my brother/sister had a problem with stealing, and they did it over and over again, it’s time for an intervention! You see, Stephen, I love my brothers and sisters enough to tell them the truth, to want to stop the hurtful behavior, behavior that hurts others and has the potential to destroy my family member.
That’s true love… stepping out and caring enough to do the hard things. That’s why this blog exists.
I hope this answers a few of your questions. If not, please post again. It is only through God’s sovereign hand and plan and communication that these issues within SGM will ever change, for God’s glory and our (the whole body of Christ) good!
August 28th, 2009 at 9:13 am
May I add just a little thought…
When we ask “at what point do we move on”, I think the answer is–
There isn’t a “point” that one can put their finger on and say “okay, here is the time people should be able to move on”. I think that point differs from person to person and may not even be a “point” at all but more a process. In my opinion, the whole need to figure out a formula for life and all it’s ups and downs is part of what’s gotten SGM in “trouble” (for lack of a better word) in the first place.
August 28th, 2009 at 9:46 am
Stephen,
Take a step back with me for a second, so we can see this from a different angle. Let’s say your brother, or sister, sins against you in some way… They steal something from you for example. Let’s say then that the individual never comes and seeks your forgiveness. Won’t you and shouldn’t you forgive them anyways? Shouldn’t we take them in and still love them like before?
Stephen, you are right, lets take a look at this. I have used this analogy previously and will use it again for you. Suppose your or one of your family members goes to a Dr. who causes loss of life/limb for you. When the investigation starts on the case and there are many malpractice suits against this person, would you continue to go to him/her, or recommend them to your family or friends? I suspect not. You would still forgive them (hopefully for killing your child or spouse) but I cannot imagine anyone in their right mind having anything medically to do with that person.
It is the same for those that have been hurt, wounded, damaged, deserted due to SGM actions. Wouldn’t you want to warn people about that physican so they did not suffer the pains you did at his hand?
Granted, maybe the way some things are conveyed here, seem harsh, unforgiving and cold….WELL……can you tell me that the day after your spouse died at the and of that Dr., you would take your only child to him for treatment?
Every wound, cut, scrape, bruise heals differently. Please give these people time to heal. Forgive???????? They have, they are simply shouting to the world that ‘THIS DR CAN CAUSE GRAVE EMOTIONAL AND BODILY HARM’
HE knows what they are doing..If there is a problem with it, HE will address it. And, knowing their hearts, they will receive from HIM, as HE heals with love, gentleness and patience, not uninformed condemnation.
I said it before, and will say it again, I am praying for your family. If you have been hurt by this, then surely you know how to pray for these people here.
August 28th, 2009 at 10:26 am
Stephen,
Interesting post, isn’t part of the Gospel message to bind up the broken and the wounded? To proclaim good news to the captives?
Where have YOU been?
August 28th, 2009 at 10:40 am
Steven,
If we were writing about the dangers of the doctrines and practices of the Jehovah’s Witnesses, would you call it “bashing”? We are warning, not bashing. To those in SGM who continue to spiritually abuse God’s people, we are confronting, rebuking, correcting, warning, etc. To those that have left, we are counseling, comforting, encouraging, and atempting to help heal the deep wounds inflicted by these spiritual abusers who Lord it over their members.
August 28th, 2009 at 10:46 am
Carole,
Thank you so much for your post. I really enjoyed talking to your husband for the time that I did. I appreciate the heart motives that both of you share in this blog.
I guess the problem I have is with how people communicate about SGM. It comes across to me as more of a bashing party against SGM. Aren’t we called by Christ to encourage someone like ten times or something before bringing correction?
I don’t know that it’s fair to say it’s the SGM norm. What we are getting is only one side of the story. You don’t see the tens of thousands of people who love SGM posting here their stories.
I know for a fact there are many ways SGM doesn’t agree with John Piper or Mark Driscoll but both are still able to work together. They all see that they have a difference of opinions but that the Gospel would be much better served if they worked together rather then squabbling over little things.
If I disagree with SGM it doesn’t mean they are wrong. They very well may have biblical backing for their beliefs. Is it our place to question them? If we can’t agree with SGM then there are plenty of other churches out there for us.
No matter what we say SGM WILL ALWAYS hurt people. They will screw up and make mistakes. People’s lives will be damaged and wronged against. Can we focus on the good? Focus on the Gospel? Focus on the tens of thousands saved?
I Got Out,
I’m sorry if I came across saying there was an exact moment for us to move on. It was meant as more of a rhetorical question. I don’t think there is an exact “point” just that we can dwell on something forever. Granted if we were all like Jesus we would forgive and forget right away. Unfortunately we aren’t and won’t be until death takes us… but why lower our standers just because we won’t ever be like that as an excuse to hold onto wrongs?
Mimi,
I’m not sure that the doctor analogy really adequately works for this situation… but let’s humor it. Imagine at the same time as this doctor has ten malpractice suits against him maybe he has 1000 amazing cases where he pulled someone from the brinks of death. What do you think people would think of the doctor then?
When SGM makes mistakes I hardly think they are killing anyone or causing them to fall away from Christ. Yes, SGM can cause hurt towards those people for sure. But I think for every time SGM has handled a situation wrong there are at least 100 cases the because of SGM people have come to know Christ and have been rescued from death and the pits of Hell.
And that’s just the point… I would happily recommended someone to attend a SGM church. I would not hesitate to do so. I may feel need to warn them it’s not perfect but SGM has God at the heart. Not perfectly I must say – just like us – but that is what they strive for.
Cardinal,
I’m sorry. I’m not sure I’m following your post.
August 28th, 2009 at 11:28 am
Mimi, Well said! Great analogy! and there are many more layers of complexity to this issue.
Stephen, I don’t know that we can make the assumption that SGM is a ‘great Church’ therefore we sweep everything under the rug. The ends do not justify the means. If the good shepherd left the 99 to pursue the one lost sheep we cannot discount or devalue any of the lives that have been shattered by the actions of the leaders at SGM Churches. No amount of good they have done justifies the destruction of even one person. While we all make mistakes and there can be honest disagreements about the issue of authority, it is obvious that this issue is pernicious and ongoing. I believe SGM has a severely flawed theology in it’s interpretation of what it means to sheppard it’s flock. After all these years and the numerous casualties that have occurred with almost the exact same testimonies, it is indeed more than the two accusations required by scripture to receive the accusation against the elders of this church. The victims of the abuse is only the first dimension of the problem. Being in reality is the priority and thus pleasing to God. Any less than that and the truth is diminished and all suffer as a result. The farther we are from reality the worse the consequence. Not only do the victims suffer but the perpetrators suffer as well as does the entire body of Christ. Forgiveness is just one portion of the equation. What causes forgiveness to yield it’s intended result? Forgiveness and repentance work in tandem to produce intimacy and community. Indeed we can forgive but we cannot achieve intimacy and community without repentance from the offending party and in fact without the repentance portion we must take steps to prevent further abuse. Would or should we permit a known child abuser to work with our children? We have to be willing to name the sin and confront it. If there is no repentance we are left with no other choice but to warn the rest of the body on behalf of the truth and to protect all involved.
This is no small matter. In the end we ALL deceive ourselves including the leaders of SGM. They are not the end all be all unto themselves. There is a larger body of Christ. I believe the reason the Lord allowed the Church to have a reformation and become what it is now, a lot of separate groups and denominations is because we do see through the glass darkly and we need to have an existent freedom in the body to hold each other accountable and have the freedom to go else where when there are abuses like this. The tower of Bable is a great example. The Lord knows that sooner or later any group will make these kinds of mistakes and hopefully the others will be able to address the issues and help resolve them. We are all in need of grace, forgiveness, repentance and restoration to one degree or another. The objective is not to bring anyone down or gravel at their feet but to expose the deception of evil working among us in the body. This is a destructive force that needs to be addressed to restore health and vitality to the body for the good of all believers. For those who have been damaged it is their responsibility to stop being victims and make healthy choices with regard to how they progress spiritually and to those who have inflicted the damage to seek forgiveness and restoration to the ones they have damaged. I believe it is possible. It is a process and it cannot be rushed. We do have to trust that the Lord is bringing his truth to the issue. In the meantime we really do have to do whatever we can to be a positive influence. God Bless you Stephen, I do know your Dad and I am certain he will be a better man and God will give all of you a greater capacity to work in the body.
August 28th, 2009 at 11:32 am
Stephen
I noticed your above post. Though you indicated that “I feel like SGM didn’t handle the situation with my dad in the best manner. There are plenty of ways through this situation I feel SGM has wronged my family and parents” I didn’t see any acknowledgment of wrong that your father has done including maybe to deserve this. I don’t have any first hand knowledge but have heard he certainly did a number of wrongs to people etc. Yes no one is perfect but I don’t see you writing about this side.
Sadly, many, including some on this blog, see your dad stepping down as a good sign for SGM.
First your dad was asked to step down from what SGM calls the “apostolic team.” Now he was asked to step down as pastor. Perhaps the stepping down from the team wasn’t enough of a wake up call.
With that being said, there certainly does seem to different standards for what makes a pastor step down in SGM. Tomczak was removed due to family problems but Mahaney’s brother in law didn’t have to step down despite this brother in law having family problems. Maybe your father wasn’t extended the favoritism that other pastors seem to receive within SGM. It also might be that your father is more of a threat to Mahaney like Tomczak was was used as a convenient way to silence that threat.
My big point is that there appears to be responsibility on your father’s part of what happened. He doesn’t appear to just be a victim. I am sure that isn’t easy to accept with him being your father but appears to be the truth.
August 28th, 2009 at 11:33 am
Hi Stephen,
My husband enjoyed talking to you, too! He said that you were very kind and “sweet” (I know, that’s not a great adjective to describe a young man, but he meant it in the best way!!).
I can understand your point of view… there are some angry people who post here. They are hurt, they have had their life as they knew it destroyed because of the authoritarian ways of SGM. But not everyone here is angry. Exposing sin issues that are rampant in a family of churches does not equal an angry mob.
We truly love the body of Christ, which includes SGM.
One thing I would like to try to clarify, if I may… we are not talking about a disagreement or a difference of opinion here… we are not talking “I like blueberries, and since you don’t, you are wrong and MUST change.” If it was as simple as a difference of opinion, or personal preference, none of it would be an issue. (Like the differences SGM has with Piper and Driscoll… I don’t know either one of these gentlemen, and I’m assuming that they are not walking in continuous sin.)
We are talking about UN-biblical beliefs and behavior, inherent in SGM, that affect the sheep in a negative way. This UN-biblical behavior must stop… it is inherently sinful… it is wrong… hyper authoritarianism goes completely against what Jesus taught.
And YES!!!… it IS our place to question pastors/leaders!… especially if what they are teaching is wrong and sinful! It is the responsibility of every Christian to weigh everything they are taught, everything their church leaders practice, with the Word of God! It is so important to know the Word of God, to study for yourself, not leave it up to anyone (even a pastor) to interpret God’s Word for us. This is how we can discern what is right and wrong in what we hear, what we believe, what we are taught. If SGM has biblical backing (Scripture) to back up their SOP, I would like to see it.
I sure hope you are wrong when you said this: “No matter what we say SGM WILL ALWAYS hurt people. They will screw up and make mistakes. People’s lives will be damaged and wronged against.”
Surely there will come a day when SGM’s unbiblical practices will be a thing of the past!… although my hope for that is growing very thin, indeed. Am I living in a land of sunshine and rainbows? Naahhh!
I know that as long as we are on this earth, we will sin against others. The difference is, will we sin intentionally and continuously, knowing we are inflicting pain and hurt on others, even when we are confronted over and over in our sin? Or will we see our sin when it is brought to our attention, through the Holy Spirit, confess our sin, repent, ask forgiveness… and CHANGE?
As a side note… why is it wrong to ask questions in SGM? Why is it wrong to question pastors/leaders about something that they are teaching as truth? It is the height of arrogance to have the idea that you should never be questioned on anything you do or anything you say or anything you teach others. Whereas, on the other hand, humility and open communication and open mindedness is a good way to become more and more Christlike.
Thanks again for posting here! I know Jim told you this on the phone, but just wanted to tell you again… we are praying for you and for your family. No matter how different our views are, we are brothers and sisters in the Lord, all a part of the body of Christ.
August 28th, 2009 at 11:37 am
Stephen-
I do agree that if we were like Jesus we would forgive right away. And you are right that this won’t occur this side of Heaven. However, there won’t be any sin in Heaven either. I don’t think that’s the point. My point is that our Father is a gracious, patient, and loving Father–not one who is sitting there drumming His fingers on the table waiting for us to “get our acts together”.
As far as the “lowering our standards” comment, I take issue with that. Who’s standards are we talking about? Your standards on how long it takes to heal? Maybe SGM’s standards? What if it takes 1 month longer for person X to heal from the sin person Y did to them than person Y is comfortable with. Well, I say too bad for person Y. Especially if person Y can’t seem to humble himself and confess and repent or is totally minimizing the hurt of person X. I think you may be making an assumption that folks don’t want to heal. I believe that would be a mistake. Nobody wants to feel like this. I can’t imagine that anyone is enjoying this.
When you make the comment above about doubting that SGM’s mistakes could cause anyone to fall away from Christ, I seriously beg to differ. Just because it may not be your experience, doesn’t make it untrue. I personally know folks who want nothing to do with church or religion (one doesn’t want anything to do with God) because of their experiences in SGM. That should cause every pastor in every SGM church to stop dead in their tracks and take a good hard look at themselves. Rather than make the heartless, smug, condescending comment “well, then their faith must not have been genuine to begin with”, which has been said from the pulpit in SGM, maybe a true “pastor” of a flock would walk away from those 100 lucky folks you talk about above to go out and find and bandage up that one sheep that’s not doing so hot.
That’s what our Lord did…
August 28th, 2009 at 12:16 pm
Oh, BRAVO everyone! What a great discussion.
Carole, you’ve explained it all so well.
Stephen, you ask good questions, and I hope you “feel” the welcome from everyone. It takes courage to come on a site where you think people are bashing sgm, and tell your point of view with patience and clarity. I’m still praying for your family. Just wanted you to know.
To the saints in SGM: we really do love you in Christ Jesus! We really do! Please look past the anger and emotion prevalent in some here who are still working through their issues. We are all doing our best to express what Carole has spoken of – telling of the authoritarian abuses that damage so many lives in churches that practice it (this blog being about SGM). If we did not have love, we would not care what happens to our brothers and sisters who have or are suffering right now from abusive authority. Try to see past the emotion and hear what is being said. Please! Thank you.
August 28th, 2009 at 11:55 pm
Hey guys, thank you all for your posts. I think at this point it’d be best if I didn’t post much longer. - I’ve said what I wanted to say. I know we could all go back and forth countering each other but I’m not sure I see the good in it. I would think both sides are fairly well set in their opinions, for better or worse. I think Canary has summed things up fairly nicely though.
I do just feel the need to say a couple last things. In response to Steve240… Please be careful of what you say about people. Your post is riddled with error when it comes to my father. My father was not asked to step down from the Leadership Team for sin issues. My dad no longer wished to be on the LT because he felt called to focus on the church plant and to have being a Senior Pastor his only focus.
Your comment about my dad or Tomczak being a “threat” to CJ honestly made me laugh. If you knew CJ, my dad, and Larry Tomczak like I do you would understand.
Yes, I guess you could say my dad has been responsible in some ways to being asked to step down. He has sinned… so if that’s a criteria – by all means! The problem I have with this is it’s obvious you have only heard one side of the story, liked what you heard, and bought it hook, line, and sinker. Before you make assumptions about someone, sit down, talk with them, hear their side of the story.
I had wanted to avoid the issue because it is my family. But, if there is one thing I will not and can not put up with is hearing my father’s name slandered by someone who has no connection with the situation and who is only making assumptions off of hearsay!
Please, hear me out. DO NOT take for fact what you’ve heard a person or two say! Even if it is posted on this blog does not make it fact.
August 29th, 2009 at 1:18 am
Stephen,
I think that’s a wise choice!
Our prayers continue for you and your family… may God richly bless you all and lead you into His Truth!
August 29th, 2009 at 10:31 am
In the years before I left, I had members of my family attacked and slandered by SGM leadership. As you know, my sister “Gracie” was one of them…not the only one, but one of them. I was also slandered and wrongfully judged by SGM leadership. As I’ve mentioned before, they actually had the audacity to call my faith “not genuine” as if they had any right or business to make that kind of judgement. If you’d like a nice little laugh, at one point my former “care” group leader (and I use the term loosely) said I must have had a stroke to be walking away from it all like I was.
Now, here’s the sad flip side– I had a conversation with someone I was mildly aquainted with at the church a couple weeks ago. He, too, has since left. He recognized some of the details of my posting here and was able to identify me and got in touch with me via Facebook. We spoke on the phone. He mentioned that he had been surprised with my experience and attitude with SGM because, he would have thought I was one of the “saducees” too. Talk about making my heart sick. But, and here’s the sad part, he was right. When I think about how I bought into this warped version of being a believer and actually lived it for many years, I could vomit. When I think of all the pat answers I spewed out at people who were confused and hurting, I could vomit some more. When I think of the times when I thought “whatever happened to so-and-so” but never gave it another thought and certainly didn’t pursue them…more vomiting. When I think of all the times, as the Lord began to open my eyes, that I said nothing as this nonsense continued…oh my. When it became a little to personal and my children began to be hurt so I began to question things but didn’t put my foot down, that’s when the sick really gets bad. As hard as it was to switch from being a blind follower, to a tongue-biting conformist, and then to a “heck no” kinda gal, knowing what it would cost me, at least now I don’t feel sick anymore. Not about my own behavior anyway. Thankfully, God forgives. And He understands.
I really want to be compassionate to the protective nature SGM-faithful folks have toward their leaders. It’s hard, though, when there is so little to no compassion extended to those who have been hurt so badly. And it’s hard when the truthfulness and validity of our experiences is constantly challenged and questioned. I guess, truthfully, my thought is “what goes around comes around”. It did for me. I got treated the way I treated others. But, I see it now. And I make no excuses and minimize it. And I don’t see life like them any more. For that, I am so thankful. It’s never too late to learn and it’s never too late to change. With God’s Spirit, I can change, I can heal, and I can be the person He wants me to be.
So, if it took a “stroke” for me to get out…thank you Father for my stroke!!!!!
August 29th, 2009 at 10:55 am
Stephen,
I do appreciate your time here. I would also disagree with Steve’s assumption re the leadership team. There is no evidence to back up this claim.
I think we’re probably discussing this on the wrong tread. This thread would be a better fit.
Obviously everything you read here cannot be verified. What I want you to know is that when I create a main post, I do my best to hear all sides of the story. The post about your father’s resignation includes data received from members of the involved churches, those close to the situation, and from a SGM pastor. I have asked for your father’s side of the story.
Early on in the life of this blog, I would ask SGM pastors (offline) to confirm or deny an account that mentioned their name. I was met with silence. I’ve stopped that practice, but have recently asked a SGM pastor to “please ask these men to call me”.
I’m as busy as they are, but I’m very easy to reach, with direct contact info listed on the “About” page.
My prayer is that we would start interacting directly. The time has long passed for these men to act as if this blog doesn’t exist.
August 29th, 2009 at 2:34 pm
Stephen
Sorry if it was my post that made you decide to stop posting on this blog. Your decision to post on this blog is admirable and took some courage on your part. I was though shocked at how you seemed to be portraying all that happened to your dad was due to him being a victim of SGM leadership vs. due to his actions that caused him to have to step down from his position as pastor.
It is too bad that no statement has been given as to why Brent Detwiler has stepped down. It is true that I have only heard the one side. It would be interesting to hear what the other side is.
One concern I have with SGM is that when they ask pastors to step down, from what I have heard, they don’t give them any type of severance. I imagine that makes life difficult for a family where the father has been in ministry for a while. That is what Larry Tomczak indicated in one of his books.
As Jim has said, there is no indication that sin/character issues were cited as why Brent stepped down from the SGM Leadership team. You claim it was solely due to focusing on the new church plant. That may be the case but if it wasn’t it wouldn’t be the first time SGM whitewashed something like this. I doubt we will ever know the real truth this side of eternity.
August 30th, 2009 at 12:38 pm
My prayer is that we would start interacting directly. The time has long passed for these men to act as if this blog doesn’t exist.
Oh, well said, Jim!
Steve240, you’ve been posting long enough for us all to know something of your heart. You’ve always been pretty gentle about how you present your opinions. Just wanted to encourage you.
Stephen, I’m really glad you visited the Refuge. I hope that, if anything posted here is missing some facts, that it will be cleared up. I continue to wish you and your family well, and pray for them during this difficult time. We might strongly differ in how we view church leadership and the focus on sin so much (there is such amazing freedom and joy when we focus on the doctrine of grace, instead!), but we all have one thing in common – we desire to follow Jesus Christ. I pray that you will sense His loving presence as you continue on your journey through this life. God bless you and yours. Very, very sincerely, Canary
August 30th, 2009 at 12:54 pm
“There is such amazing freedom and joy when we focus on the doctrine of grace, instead”
Amen Canary! Thank you so much for that wonderful truth. May God richly bless you today.
August 30th, 2009 at 1:00 pm
I Got Out,
I can tell by your words that things are still “raw” with you. You have legitimate questions. I believe the Lord will answer them all in time. We are all here for you!
I am so sorry you experienced what you did. Yet, I say gently, it is also very good that you are at the point of seeing your own culpability. I know that Gracie has spoken of this about herself. So have I about myself. I write this because, when we realize how we bought into the system by our own choice, that we too made errors in our behavior towards others, we are well on our way to healing and freedom!
That does not take away from the faulty doctrine that was preached as absolute truth. So much focus on our sin made us incapable of growing up in the faith because we were always looking at ourselves! OMG, I got so sick of ME. I couldn’t take it anymore
Anyway, I wanted to encourage you that you are so on the right track! The raw feelings will ease as the Lord continues to guide you, to fill you with joy. I can’t believe that anyone would say you must have had a stroke if you were leaving sgm. That is so…so…I can’t even find a word. What do SGMers (especially pastors) think about that comment, I’d like to know. Shaking my head here, and rubbing my brow. Oh brother…
I Got Out, I’m so glad you got out. So glad that you are going to get through this, that you are going to experience faith like you never have before. It is a beautiful thing to walk in the freedom which Christ gave us. You will NEVER want to give yours up again. I won’t either. We will guard our faith fiercely. I am also glad you are posting here. Do you realize how many people you are all ready helping, just by giving us your precious thoughts? Thank you so much, I.G.O.
August 30th, 2009 at 1:01 pm
Thank you, Dennis.
August 30th, 2009 at 1:17 pm
Canary,
I can only respond with “well said!”. I know it looks funny after you just gave me a “well said’. I tend to look funny anyway.
I’ve said this before, but what the hey…
I believe in the doctrine of indwelling sin. I believe that it should be given the same “weight” that it’s given in Scripture. SGM has overemphasized this this doctrine to the point that it’s all that some people hear. People NEED to hear, and NEED to dwell on the incomprehensible Grace of God.
SGM pastors and care group leaders, please take a sabbatical from addressing hearts and tell your audience about Jesus. tell them WHO THEY ARE IN HIM.
Hearts have been addressed to death. Speak words of Life in Him. Not just from the pulpit, but in the office, in cars, in living rooms, on the phone, in email-tell people who they are and why.
August 30th, 2009 at 1:18 pm
“So much focus on our sin made us incapable of growing up in the faith because we were always looking at ourselves!”
Yes, that is so true! And we (former SGMers) are now focused on the sins of the leadership because these sins are destroying those who are being Lorded over. Jesus called the Pharisees, “white washed tombs”, “hypoctites”, and a “brood of vipers”. He focused on the sins of the leadership because they were Lording it over people, and putting them in legalistic bondage, just as the SGM leaders are guilty of doing. So we are right to focus on the sins of the leadership, just as Jesus did. They preach ONE WAY accountability – to them! They absolutely refuse to be accountable to us.
August 30th, 2009 at 1:24 pm
Canary
Thanks for your encouragement.
Steve
August 30th, 2009 at 1:49 pm
Jim,
Well said (hee-hee!).
Steve240,
You are very welcome.
October 14th, 2009 at 9:43 pm
What you don’t know about Mr. Detwiler is a lot.
October 15th, 2009 at 11:46 am
There are some of us here who know Brent very well, as we sat under his teachings for years. He was also our pastor. I personally feel very deeply for the struggles he and his family are presently going through. It isn’t easy to hear that another pastor got shanked. Yet, his controlling ways damaged many. If he learns to understand this, perhaps this will all turn out for good. That is something we can all pray for.
October 15th, 2009 at 2:16 pm
Mr Alderfer-
Care to add what you know?
October 16th, 2009 at 12:23 am
Canary,
Brent was not shanked…Believe me. His actions most definitely predicated the outcome of the situation. His choices brought about the particular resolution of the problem that took place.
…I guess one could say he was “Detwilered”. Reaping & sowing comes to mind when I think upon this scenario.
October 25th, 2009 at 12:45 pm
Shanked, fired, forced to resign…it’s all the same.
I said, “Yet, his controlling ways damaged many. If he learns to understand this, perhaps this will all turn out for good. That is something we can all pray for.” I don’t excuse Brent’s behavior, nor do I excuse my own while I was involved with SGM. I do, however, think that it is important to have compassion for someone who has fallen from great heights. If this forces Brent to question his belief system, then it is the Lord’s discipline that he is under. It is a fearful thing to come under the hand of the Living God. This should move us with compassion to pray.
As I said earlier, I was pastored by Brent for many years, and was completely, utterly devestated in the end. I know his ways. I am glad he is removed from the position that allowed him to control and harm so many. However, love must motivate us. If we loose the ability to have compassion for those who harmed us, especially while they are being disciplined by the Lord, then we become like the SGM machine which trampled so many saints. God forbid!
If this situation is just another pastor stepping down to be “adjusted”, who will then become some sort of leader again as he cooperates with the agenda, then my compassion is mis-spent. That has yet to be proven. So I will continue to pray for Brent and his family. Perhaps I can do that because I am past the anger, and most of the pain from my experience is gone. Now, I want to see the leaven purged from the church. God help us all to see that day!
October 25th, 2009 at 1:54 pm
You people are pathetic.
It’s now wonder you get ripped by people like Brent Detailer. You can’t run your own life so you all get in line with the rest of the hamsters for your turn on the wheel.
Pastor Detailer is no different than any other leach church leader. Swaggart, Baker, Jim Jones, they are all the same. Find some sucker and run their life and please pay in advance today for your salvation tomorrow.
I am so shocked about what my Pastor did to us. Where have you all been for the last 25 years? Have you learned nothing?
Forget about Brent Detwiler. Man up and take command of your own life. He doesn’t need you and you sure don’t need and can’t afford him. Brent Detwiler is the only man alive who knows what the Lord wants you to do? How weak is that? All of you can read, you know what the print says. So step up and stop following losers and build a life no matter what you believe.
Follow me I will save your sorry life for 2.5 percent that’s about the best deal you will get. Pay 20 years in advance and for a one time payment I will get you into heaven and knock off another 1 percent. Eternal salvation for 1.5 percent. Try and get Pastor Detwiler to give you a better deal then that.
Brent will have no trouble finding someone else to follow him off some cliff. Brent might find more money working at a place like ENRON then you will never have to hear from him again.
October 25th, 2009 at 2:31 pm
Randy,
Interesting post. Might want to adjust the meds, as you seem to slip in and out of coherent thought. Mostly out.
October 25th, 2009 at 3:11 pm
Jim, you think a meds adjustment is in order here?
October 25th, 2009 at 3:50 pm
GDfS-maybe. Maybe it’s me, but I’m having a hard time tracking with Randy.
Randy, I’m sorry for my sarcastic response-could you break it down for me a little?
October 25th, 2009 at 4:03 pm
I am in need of meds?
Who are the ones following the teachings of a narcissistic nut case who makes his living off of the backs of working families? One who tells them their children can’t date and court. I have a feeling we could learn a lot from the courting habits of Pastor Detwiler. Just another pastor who is always the first to cast the stone.
Does SGM provide it’s members with a financial statement with an open accounting of what is being paid to it’s pastors?
Very well said Jim. Spoken just like another sheep on the way to becoming a mutton dinner. Make sure your head stays deep in the sand while your pastors steel from you.
October 25th, 2009 at 4:13 pm
Randy, I love your passion, but Jim really is one of the good guys. You many want to extend a little more grace–really!
October 25th, 2009 at 4:20 pm
Grace-Really?
I have no passion in all of this. I don’t look at events as I want to see them but from and outside position trying to see truth.
Funny thing, I didn’t accuse Jim of needing meds. I’m glad he is one of the good guys.
October 25th, 2009 at 4:25 pm
Jim and G.D.,
It seems that Randy Ruth hasn’t read much of the blog. He seems to think we are following Brent. Talk about misinformed. Read the blog, new posters, before giving your opinion!
In defense, Brent is neither a “narcissistic nut case”, not does he “throw stones”. Talk like that is ridiculous, and makes us all look like nutcases. He and SGM leadership have chosen a path of doctrine that is off the beaten path of the true gospel of peace. They have introduced and nurtured the leaven that grows within the church, the leaven that is so harmful to the saints and to the purity of the gospel of Jesus Christ. They sincerely believe they are right, just as we all thought we were when we were a part of their movement. We were once where they are now. Let us pray for our brethren, and continue, in love, to speak the truth of what we have seen. That’s all I’m saying.
To Randy Ruth: Peace out. Why not introduce yourself to Jim and explain where you have come from? We’re listening…
October 25th, 2009 at 4:31 pm
Canary: Is “peace out” anything like chill out? I am just wondering.
October 25th, 2009 at 4:31 pm
Randy,
I don’t “have” a “pastor” in the modern use of the term. I apologized for the meds statement, and that stands. It was stupid.
Please tell us who you are addressing and what you are trying to say.
October 25th, 2009 at 6:42 pm
Jim,
No offense take and I understand you don’t stand with SGM. Why am I in this state? Because,,,,, my family has been put down. Have your children been told they don’t have Jesus with them by a slime ball pastor? Threats have been made and if that is what SMG is about they are just like every other major church. They have lost their way and have become evil. They have forgotten who they serve.
I have also read every word of this blog. Every word.
Enough about this corrupt organization. You all sound like great people here and you will surly find your way if you leave SGM behind. I should have never posted because people only see what they want to see. Be safe and trust only yourself and Jesus. And,,,,,, oh yes, he is a narcissist.
Good by and I wish you all well.
October 25th, 2009 at 6:53 pm
Randy,
We would love to have you walk with us. Don’t isolate yourself ; we are your brothers and sisters, we are the church! Some of us go to the “box” on the corner at 10pm on Sunday morning. Some of us don’t. Some of us are intense; some of us go with the flow. Stick around! We won’t always agree with you, as you won’t with us, but your ideas and views are welcome for what it’s worth.
October 25th, 2009 at 6:54 pm
Randy,
Now I see where you are coming from. My children were never told that they were not Christians, but 2 of them were not treated well.
My wife and I were high profile in our little ex sgc. We made enemies just by leaving, and you can only imagine what I’ve heard since I started this blog 17 months ago.
October 25th, 2009 at 9:14 pm
G.D.,
Hee-hee. Yes, “chill out” would be the equivilant of the Brady Bunch era for “peace out”. Ugh, I’m showing my decades. Ho-hum…
Hope you and your family are doing well!
October 26th, 2009 at 6:40 am
I am peace-ing out!
October 26th, 2009 at 10:20 am
I found an excellent article over the weekend about church authority, government, and practices. You may not agree with every single point, but it sure will make you think. Please check it out:
http://www.lonang.com/Reclaim_the_Church.pdf
October 26th, 2009 at 11:41 am
Here is one more article, which is about “the SUPER Apostles”. Try not to think of CJ Mahaney and group when you read it. Betcha can’t!
http://www.cultwatch.com/Churc.....ority.html
October 26th, 2009 at 12:13 pm
Canary,
I appreciate your heart for Brent. In spite of everything, I’ll always be grateful for the positive way that some of his preaching has influenced my life and I so feel for him and his family and pray for them often. Even though I believe that the decision to step down was the correct one, I take absolutely no pleasure in this whatsoever. I pray with all my heart that those who have been hurt by Brent will know without a doubt that the Lord is their vindication and will find their healing and restoration in Him. I’m not sure what man can do at this point.
The Missus
October 26th, 2009 at 12:51 pm
If you will bear with me, I have one more article that has some very profound insights into conformity pressures and influencing factors of church organizations using manipulation, mind control, spiritual inferiority complexes, possession and “ownership” of members, etc vs freedom in Christ. OUTSTANDING!
http://www.kingdomline.com/jb_churchstructure.pdf
October 26th, 2009 at 1:28 pm
Randy-
I’m sorry for all your going through, if you ever want to talk more about it, stop by again.
Until then…peace to you
October 27th, 2009 at 7:54 am
It truly is not the flesh we are battling! Though we do have to put names to the evil being done to properly gain insight to the specific issues, we do have to focus on the core problems.
Great articles Dennis! We come to Christ because in the end we long for Him. The Spirit He has imparted to us will cause us to find no substantive satisfaction in this world though we will lose our way as we go. It is painful to see others make their mistakes and tempting to coerce them when they lose their way. We are permitted to instruct, teach, suggest etc. but ultimately they must come of their own accord. If they are Christians they will come. When we attempt to manipulate in any way we only we are circumventing the organic processes the Lord has in place. Every thinking adult is fully responsible for their own choices and we must fully respect the sacredness of this freedom accorded by God. Not guilt nor pity nor fear nor threats will produce authentic love for Him and nothing less will satisfy the one who first loved us and will forever.
I fully believe we are being instructed by the Scriptures to be committed to a local body. I believe it is the vehicle to live most functional and satisfying life while we are here, but it is the Lord that leads our hearts and we must be free to make that choice. We come because we want to. There are seasons of life come and go. We must resist the temptation to userp the unique position of the Holy Spirit in the lives of others. To use the contemporary term ‘codependent’ is an apt adjective for this dynamic. We often busy ourselves with wanting to ‘fix’ others and escape the responsibilities of fixing ourselves or ‘taking the log out of our own eye.’
To find a highly functional church is indeed a challenge. We do need to have pastors. The marker of a great pastor is one who truly ‘loves’ the people. When a pastor truly loves the people, the primary feature will be relational and not authoritarian. If we find ourselves attracted to authoritarian type leadership we may have to think about why. If the issue is about a fear of intimacy we may choose to isolate in response to a bad experience. It only worsens the situation and we find ourselves in a reactionary mode unable to choose rationally and freely. Good choices are made when our perspective is aligned with what really is. That is the challenge folks! The most balanced truly ‘loving,’ pastor I have experienced is from firstpresaugusta.org ’George Robertson’. His sermons are online weekly. He was my pastor for 4 years and the entire time I was there he spent his time building relationships with the people. While he speaks the truth boldly and articulately, he demonstrated by his actions that he had a profoundly healthy respect for the boundaries of individuals and trust for the Holy Spirit in the lives of others. I’m not talking perfection, but we know when we are truly loved and love does ‘cover the multitude of sins’. It’s just an example that they do exist for those who may have lost hope of finding a Church. Check out his sermons.
It’s obvious that the American Church per se, has lost it’s way when you look at our culture and understand that we were the conscience of our culture just a short time ago. We are struggling but their are faithful servant leaders out there. The challenge is to find them. Peace out! lolol!!
October 27th, 2009 at 6:49 pm
The Missus,
I couldn’t have said it better. Good post.