Ok-you’ve left PDI/SGM.
If you now find yourself better off post SGM, you can tell us your story here.
You can always find this thread in the tabs across the top of the page.
This is part of the refuge zone. Criticize a poster, and I’ll delete your comment.
Please feel free to yell at us here
I’ve moved many of the posts in this thread to the “Concerned?” page.
August 11th, 2008 at 10:20 am
I’m better off and I am thankful to have endured my experience because I doubt I would have believed the psychology of legalistic systems unless I experienced it firsthand.
It took me a long time to get over the pain I experienced after being dismembered from my church family. I really loved our church and most of the relationships I had outside of my immediate family were drawn from the church (mistake, but I digress.) My experience being dismembered is a part of who I am today.
I am a loud (articulate, perhaps not,) voice of dissent with regard to legalistic systems, draconian parenting teachings, and hyper patriarchal systems.
I have learned to accept myself for who I am. I am in the process of growing and becoming, but my basic temperament is a manifestation of His Image and I will not consent to people trying to mold me into their version of the Christian standard for Biblical womanhood or whatnot.
On the other hand, I think SGM churches have a lot to offer this broken world. Their strength, however, rests in their people not necessarily from the charisma of their leadership. The people love G0d and they love people, if the legalistic systems could be broken down, these churches could be a powerfully positive influence in their environments. I really hope and pray that this would happen in the near future.
August 11th, 2008 at 10:33 am
DB-thank you for posting here!
dismembered
August 11th, 2008 at 7:40 pm
Well, it has been a long, long time since our PDI experience, but I can tell you the impact of those years and the lessons learned have stayed with me. I am much better off.
I have become adamant about a couple of issues that sometimes get a little muddled (or mangled) in SGM churches. First and foremost, I carefully guard my relationship with the Lord, not allowing a mere man to ever step between me and my Savior. Though I am quite stubborn on this point at times, this doesn’t mean I won’t hear or learn from others. But ultimately, I try to take everything to the Lord and hear for myself. ”As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him.” 1 John 2:27 I don’t care if I am labeled “independent” (as if that were a negative thing) and I am extremely hesitant to tow any sort of line if it is not Scripturally mandated or my own personal conviction/direction from the Lord. I was not this way during my PDI years. Wanting to fit in and be acknowledged and approved by the leadership, I readily did what was expected. I was nauseatingly submissive for awhile. The perfect little PDI woman. Many of you wouldn’t have liked me very much back then! But through the pain and difficulty of those experiences, I have learned what the New Covenant is really all about. This has resulted in the most precious gift of all – greater intimacy with Jesus.
The other way that the Lord has “bettered” me is in discovering a much broader sense of the Body of Christ. After losing my church family in one devastating blow, I began to diversify! I had the opportunity to travel overseas and fellowship with a large group of Christians from around the world (in Israel). In addition, my husband, children and I have all been on overseas mission trips which have opened our eyes to the beauty of His people and His great love for them all. I found out that the Lord is working in many other places besides America and PDI! And that He has some pretty fantastic folks who aren’t plugged in to any PDI church and some pretty exciting ministries that PDI would consider “parachurch” (once again, in a negative way). This awareness has decimated the prideful ”we’re doing church right” feeling that I always got in PDI and held in my own heart for awhile.
I have had the opportunity to work in an arts school for homeschoolers. There I met Catholics, Charismatics, Presbyterians, Methodists, Baptists, etc. and had a great time! Some of these ladies are my closest friends and we don’t even attend the same church. The same is true of my children. At my daughter’s birthday party a few years back, I noticed with joy that there were guests there from our church, from the arts school, from dance, from the volleyball team, from the neighborhood, etc. We have had opportunities to meet nonChristians as well doing community service and community theater. As a result, I don’t think I would ever be able to go back to such a myopic view of the Body.
So, even though PDI left its mark on our lives, the Lord God has redeemed it all. We are better and stronger. We are free. There is great joy in that! I think it’s time to watch the dancing you tube video and praise the Lord!
August 11th, 2008 at 8:21 pm
Gracie,
That was so encouraging to me! Thank you so so much for sharing.
Wow. I want to be more like you =) You are so much like Jesus.
August 11th, 2008 at 9:06 pm
“First and foremost, I carefully guard my relationship with the Lord, not allowing a mere man to ever step between me and my Savior. ”
You are one smart cookie, Gracie!!:D
“I was nauseatingly submissive for awhile. The perfect little PDI woman.”
ROFL – I am SO glad you have changed!! {{{{{{{{{ }}}}}}}}}}}}
August 11th, 2008 at 9:59 pm
Oh dear. Summer, thank you for your kind words. However, I must say, I’ve still got a LONG way to go to be like Jesus (although I’m not going to spout the “I’m the worst sinner I know” mantra).
)
August 11th, 2008 at 10:00 pm
Thanks for the hugs, Ellie!
August 12th, 2008 at 7:42 am
Gracie,
Your words bring much hope and faith in the Father to many reading here… and, I’m sure to many, many more that you interact with daily!
To look back and glean from your experiences, to take that knowledge and build conviction in Him and in His Word, and live your life rooted and grounded in Him is the epitome of freedom!
You are an inspiration… and your life and words point us right back to Him! It just doesn’t get any better than that!!
August 12th, 2008 at 10:17 am
Grace said:
“So, even though PDI left its mark on our lives, the Lord God has redeemed it all. We are better and stronger. We are free. There is great joy in that!”
Yes!
Thank you so much for posting here. My desire would be to see this thread eclipse the “Your Story” thread with stories of God’s faithfulness.
August 31st, 2008 at 7:39 am
Hey – great topic,
When you are in the deep end of the SGM pool you don’t have a clue you are drowning. I am glad that I was misjudged and given the boot. I thank God for it. I loved them too much and it was the only way God would have gotten me out. In the deep end: I stopped growing, I lost the joy of my salvation, and I worked every minute of my day to earn man’s approval. Now: I pray everyday with faith and trust, I worship every day with joy, I read my bible constantly and I am so hungry for more of God, I have a church that preaches truth with love, they encourage sharing your faith one on one with those in your community (that’s new), they encourage you to live a holy life not out of a fear of man but rather out of total love for Christ. I forgive CLC/SGM and if I could go back in time and change what happened – I wouldn’t. It has made me get on my knees and discover who Jesus is, it has made me stronger, more confident, more joyful. It turns out my thorn(losing CLC/SGM) came from a Rose. I wouldn’t change a thing. We serve a truly amazing God and I am more in love with Him!
August 31st, 2008 at 1:40 pm
Butterfly,
“It turns out my thorn came from a Rose.” That is so beautiful!
I will never regret spending 20-odd years in PDI/SGM. I learned many good things, and had some memorable experiences. I don’t regret the bad times that came, because they caused me to seek Jesus with all my heart. He found me, convicted me of being a Pharasee, and then forgave me. My whole life changed. To this day, I see the Lord’s merciful hand in my family’s experience, even though it was so dreadfully painful.
Even today, I carry a deep respect for my ex-pastors. I cannot agree with their rigid and religious ways, but I continue to have hope for them. I get angry at the injustice of enslaving people like they do, but I am not angry at them. That, too, is a merciful gift from the Lord.
There is a wonderful woman, a pastor’s wife, who in my early church days spent three years showing me how to love God’s will above my own. I will continue to be grateful to her for the hours upon hours she spent with me, for holding me while I cried, for feeding me hot soup after my car broke down in rush-hour traffic, for listening to my fears, and encouraging my hopes. In her eyes now, I might seem like one of her “failures” because I’m no longer in SGM, my husband and I having turned from the organization over eleven years ago. If it were not for those three short years of learning to love God’s will, I would not be who I am today. To this woman, I say another “thank you” from deep within my heart. I will always, always be grateful to her.
August 31st, 2008 at 4:48 pm
Canary,
there was a woman like that when I was first in PDI and for several years afterwards. I miss those earlier days with her and her wonderful family. So much.
August 31st, 2008 at 6:26 pm
Ellie,
I understand. It is so hard when relationships change and grow apart. But we have the memories!
September 1st, 2008 at 9:14 pm
Acme,
That was so funny. This week end, my friend I so needed a hug, a story, a snack, an ear, and a lovey. It was a hard long weekend.
Today, I slept in the sun, swam alittle, played pinball and air hockey against my neighbors son, had a coke slurpee, shopped and read 2 chapters of pilgrims progress… I was worn out with the goodness of God. Thanks again for your perspective.
September 4th, 2008 at 8:56 pm
“the “I’m the worst sinner I know” mantra”
Hey, here’s an idea. Next time CJ says that, you slap him across the face. (Hard.) Then you smile and say, “There. Now you’ve met someone worse than you and you never have to say that again.”
OK, so you’re shocked. But don’t tell me at least one of you didn’t smile just a little bit internally.
September 4th, 2008 at 9:55 pm
Crud! I wrote that post BEFORE I read the rest of what happened in here. (You guys really may want to consider monitoring my posts before you allow me to post here.)
I’m sorry to have been some what inappropriate given the tone of this post.
Now that I am done reading all of it I just want to give Bobbi a great big hug. It’s not easy to hurt. I admire your willingness to be so transparent with us. That took a lot of courage. Thank you for trusting us with your heart so much.
September 10th, 2008 at 11:48 am
Hello all. I am a “not (yet) out” SGMer, but it sounds from the tone like I am allowed to post here.
I am asking myself many similar questions: How to know if it is okay to stay; how to know if it is time to move on.
Music Man’s point above about “if you have spouse and children” and how the “conflict” might be affecting them hits very close to home for me. In my situation there is no conflict, so for me I would word it that I have turned my observations to seeing how being a part of SGM is affecting “Fly-mate and maggots” (note my monicker is “Fly”).
I think I saw somewhere (here? the other SGM blog? can’t remember) the point was made that SGM churches work well for people who are healthy or strong, but things start breaking down where individuals within the “program” are questioning, or struggling, or experience something beyond the SGM scope of “normal”.
When you combine sheltered SGM kids with “different” experiences, and plug them into the SGM youth care group ministry, I begin to see “conflict” (as in trying to fit a round peg into a square hole”. Plus, there are all these little SGM clone children, who are legitimately trying to walk with the Lord, but have no example but SGM. These children, and then young adults, are being put into “Care” Groups, and then taught within this context to do the SGM sin-sniffing exercises. But, then you get a group of kids where the first five are saying, “I’m really struggling to get up for quiet times.” “I am having trouble managing my time.” “I’m fighting with my brother again.” “I need (”want”) this new pair of shoes, but my parents won’t pay for it.” Then, along comes round peg who says something like, “I’m anorexic, and I haven’t eaten since last Wednesday. I think it’s probably wrong, but I can’t stop, and frankly I don’t want to.” or “I’ve been struggling with suicidal thoughts. I found that if I cut, it relieves the pressure so that the crises passes, but I think it’s wrong.” or “I was raped by an adult in the church.” or “I think I am attracted to the same sex.”
SGM doesn’t handle these issues well, let alone SGM youth. So either “Round Peg” (RP) gets stupid or bad answers, or makes up lame things to say, or just withdraws and doesn’t talk in care group.
If RP manages to talk to the Care Group Leader, RP and parents get referred to a pastor. Pastor may be your basic CW (NC) variety, and direct RP immediately to the “obvious” sin issues that he/she needs to immediately address in his/her life. Or pastor may be the empathetic variety. Empathetic pastor sympathasizes, sets up additional sessions, and encourages “RP” to share with “trusted” individuals within the care group to foster openness and accountability, which is stupid because the kid in the care group has no idea what to do with that information.
Either way, the pastor has followed the SGM format and not referred RP to get real help, which RP really needs. RPs parents walk a tight rope trying to figure out what they should do… quietly get RP outside help? Let RP continue seeing the pastor exclusively? Leave SGM entirely? Or maybe the parents aren’t even aware of all this stuff, because RP is not open with them…
So, Fly is sitting on the wall seeing all this stuff flying around, watching the Fly-babies, the Fly-Mate, and beginning to think Fly needs to get out. But for this particular Fly there is some particularly sticky Flypaper (like there isn’t some sort of flypaper making escape difficult for every other fly…)… This won’t be easy. Will I have to cut off my leg to escape?…
And I can see why the Reformed Big Dogs aren’t aware of these things… Every church has issues, dissenters… We’ve heard those lines. Plus, the written materials published by SGM largely seem so (theologically and otherwise) dead-right-on! It must be hard for someone on the outside to believe the stories that are starting to surface. Some of the pastors are really sincere, and some of the pastors are just really good at the practice they have developed of speaking so carefully, so theoretically correctly, so graciously to one group, and so arrogantly, so poisonously, so sure of themselves and their God-given gift of “identifying and pointing out” the sin in others’ lives. I think Fly will probably still find these materials to be spiritually edifying even when on the outside…
So that’s where Fly currently is on moving on. Sorry if this post hits at a bad place for other conversations, but my computer has been sluggish, and my day has been busy, and it has taken me close to four hours to complete this post.
Fly
September 10th, 2008 at 12:04 pm
To the Blogmaster(s) (Jim? PK?)
I tried to edit my post while it still had the “Click to Edit” button up, but I received the message “You do not have permission to edit this post. Close.”
Thought you would want to check to see if the edit feature is working properly. Thanks.
Fly
September 10th, 2008 at 12:25 pm
Fly,
You only have a certain amount of time to edit, I think.
Interesting observations. Boy, if someone told me their kid was thinking of suicide, you better believe I’d point them to professional Christian counseling! Anorexia – what a deadly thing to deal with. How can anyone take these things so lightly, and believe they have the knowledge/ability to handle the counseling of people like this with only 9 months of PC under his belt? And how difficult to say, “I’m attracted to the opposite sex” when the kids around you are talking about little things like not having a quiet time or fighting with their siblings?
None of these serious conditions are surpising to God. His great love can change anything! These are the weak and wounded that SGM has, in the past, overlooked or left behind. The “help the strong, pray for the weak” strategy is not Christ-like. Jesus will go out of His way to go after the stray and the downcast. “I am the Good Shepherd. The Good Shepherd risks and lays down His own life for the sheep.” John 10:11, amplified.
Fly, your current observations only underline what has been said on this blog, and survivor’s blog. Your voice is going to speak loudly, here!
September 10th, 2008 at 12:35 pm
Thank you, Canary. I will be here quietly watching, while I struggle with my flypaper.
Oh, I wanted to reply to something else Music Man had said, about approaching the Leadership to open a conversation… To use a fire and smoke analogy I saw on the Survivors blog a few months ago, …I think the building is on fire. There is no time to make an appointment with a pastor; I think it is time to cut and run. There may be time to trip the fire alarm o my way out…
Or, to use the Jim Jones/Kool Aid analogy, I think I am surrounded by sincere folks drinking drugged Kool Aid, and everyone is so excited about how great the Kool Aid is. I may just have to nod, and talk about how great the Kool Aid is, and pretend to drink it, and then slip quietly out the exit with Fly-Mate and maggots, and hope they don’t notice and don’t send gift-boxes of Kool Aid to my home trying to entice me back…
September 10th, 2008 at 2:57 pm
Fly, I understand your problem. Ultimately, you have to decide whether your priority in life is your horizontal relationships (people and what they think of you), or your vertical relationship (God and what he thinks of your obedience to him).
God had to bring me to the point of understanding (i.e., he had to renew my mind) that I’d been practicing idolatry by caring about what the pastors and other people around me thought, as I struggled with leaving. This was after the Spirit had taken me through much of the Bible, and highlighted many verses to show me what He wanted me to pursue in Him and how that was not present in my SGM church.
Over time, God gave me a vision of what I needed to go TO, in order to worship Him “in spirit and truth” — worship/practice that would bring me into my own spiritual destiny. Once I understood that vision, I realized that no one at SGM had ever asked me what my vision/destiny was — it was always assumed that whatever the pastors said was THE vision (and it changed regularly over the years!), would automatically be MY vision!! (In order to agree with that, I had to keep drinking the Kool-Aid to silence the voice of the Spirit in me, telling me that He had a unique vision for me that no longer corresponded with the SGM vision.)
What I’m trying to say, in short, is that things will become much clearer to you when you stop trying to make things easy for yourself — sounds like they’re no longer easy, anyway! — and start asking God what His plan is for your own life and your family’s destiny. I’m sure He’s sown a lot of seeds of such a vision in yourself and your wife, over the years. What God-given dreams/visions are you having to squelch/throttle, in order to stay in SGM and continually follow THEIR vision?
It also becomes clearer when you realize that the role of pastor/teachers, and the other “five-fold ministries,” is to equip YOU to do the work of ministry. That means SGM churches should be producing hundreds and hundreds of increasingly mature Christians, who are able to go out and practice their own ministries — spiritual or secular — evangelize the lost, disciple other believers, start their own churches, etc., with LESS and LESS reliance upon their SGM pastors!
If your SGM church is NOT preparing/equipping you in these ways (helping you define YOUR OWN vision/destiny, and equip you to succeed in that and eventually become a “father” as discussed in 1 John), then you should have already been looking around for a place that will help you do that.
Ultimately, sitting fat-and-happy in an SGM church, following the path of least resistance, can itself be sinful – if the Spirit is telling you that He’s calling you to something different/better. Remember that when Abraham and Joseph (Mary’s husband) got orders from God in the middle of the night, they acted on the commands IMMEDIATELY. That’s the “right-away” part of the SGM-approved definition of “obedience” (the other parts, of course, being 2) all the way, and 3) with a good attitude!).
When God showed me that, I finally realized that my staying in SGM was not only uncomfortable and unpleasant, but actually sinful. That got my attention and led to my departure – but looking forward to the better thing God had planned for ME!
September 10th, 2008 at 3:21 pm
Your fat and happy comments are reminding me that one of the reasons people are so happy (I’m not sure about fat,) is because the esteemed leadership thinks for you. You get to put your brain on autopilot and chill with your instant SGM friends.
When you go out into the big bad world out there you have to scrape and manage and actually *think* and *pray* and get direction for yourself.
After years of kicking back and having your obedience as the gold standard, putting on your big girl pants and doing this stuff for yourself is daunting.
September 10th, 2008 at 4:44 pm
Fly,
I’m sorry-I’m buried today..
You should have 10 minutes to edit a post.
September 10th, 2008 at 4:46 pm
Thank you for your input. To be blunt, my issues with separation are that no separation can be a complete separation due to blood relatives in a close knit extended family…
September 10th, 2008 at 4:52 pm
Fly-
Family ties make the separation tough, for sure-I didn’t have this, but knew many who did. That really makes it all the more, a painful decision.
September 10th, 2008 at 6:48 pm
Fly,
I agree wholeheartedly with your observation regarding the square peg/round hole. For the first few years, our family tried very hard to fit the mold, and succeeded fairly well. Deep down, however, there were already things brewing….. By the time the perfect storm hit for us, complete with psychiatric crisis, no one at our church seemed to know what on earth to do. They just didn’t know! I personally was finished when our cg leader said, when I told him I didn’t know if I even believed the Bible anymore, “Then I don’t think we can help you.” At least he was honest – ha!
September 10th, 2008 at 9:12 pm
I am a former Mormon, and know the whole lose-the-family thing. Oh yeah.
Fly, is your extended family rational? If you flat out asked them, “If the Fly crew begins to worship in another building on Sunday morning, with another group of God’s beloved elect, would you have problems with that?” If they answer negatively, (which you suspect they would), isn’t that proof enough that you are in a whacked church, possibly a cult?
We were in an unhealthy church a couple of years ago, and it dawned on me one morning that I spent far more time worrying about the people in church than I did worshiping Jesus, and much more time worrying about pleasing horizontally than I did resting vertically, in the Savior.
There are healthy groups of believers. They would like to welcome you into a world that does not revolved around….them! They gather for worship, they meet for the study of God’s word, and then they encourage each other to push back the effects of the fall by loving their community and their neighborhood.
There are many many congregations that are led by a large group of elders, a couple of whom are paid, since they have so much to do (preparation/study for preaching, managing, counseling, teaching, etc.), and can’t have another job, but the vast majority of whom are just men who love God and their church, and GET THIS: were nominated and elected to their offices by the congregation! What a novel idea! Kind of like…..representation! They meet once/twice a month to govern, pray and lead the church, they visit the sick, they anoint with oil and pray for the sick, they fix the toilets, they teach Sunday School….without pay. Imagine!
I am bossy and opinionated, so please take this with a grain of salt: don’t waste any more time. Find (it may take some time) another group of the church where your kids will be allowed to be sinners in need of the present power of Christ, you will be allowed to just….BE. You won’t have massive quatities of Insta-Friends, but you’ll find good friends after awhile. You can sit in the back as long as you need to, just worshiping and being fed without demands. When you are ready, you and your husband can find a place for service–ask one of those unpaid elders, they’ll probably give you some ideas.
I’ll be praying for you.
September 10th, 2008 at 10:00 pm
So much I cannot respond to… Must not divulge identity if I am to ever exit discretely, which is preferable to exiting under “church discipline”, which is the clear (apparently) response of leadership if Fly’s like me do not willingly appear to drink the Kool Aid…
Extended family clearly drinking deeply of the Kool Aid.. nay, they are making the Kool Aid…
September 10th, 2008 at 10:56 pm
Fly,
I never made the Kool Aid, but I dispensed it freely. Even shoved it down a few throats.
There’s hope.
September 10th, 2008 at 11:18 pm
Yeah, they’re force feeding the Kool Aid, and dismembering anyone who won’t drink it…
September 12th, 2008 at 2:29 pm
Praying for you Jim and CG, that a good dialogue will come from this. Lord, give them both clarity…
September 14th, 2008 at 10:26 pm
Folks,
I want to reiterate one point I made over on SGM Survivors: when it comes to owning up, it just aint gonna happen, plain and simple. Does the word “liability” mean anything to anyone? It’d only take an inkling of admission to open the proverbial floodgates, of which it’s quite possible some might take advantage of (eg litigation). I’m not making a judgement on that, just an observation. But my point is that an open apology or admission that something may have gone awry or is out of order places the entire infrastructure of SGM at risk, and as I said before, it just aint gonna happen (IMHO)
September 14th, 2008 at 11:27 pm
onthefence08 saith: “Does the word “liability” mean anything to anyone? It’d only take an inkling of admission to open the proverbial floodgates, of which it’s quite possible some might take advantage of (eg litigation). ”
I think it’s just a matter of time, if SGM doesn’t come forward voluntarily, before someone does initiate a lawsuit. The fact that SGM is forcing all the sheep to sign forms, essentially absolving SGM of any responsibility for anything they say or do, is evidence they’ve pulled up the drawbridge, have double-locked all the doors, and are boiling pots of oil to dump on any attackers.
SGM figures that if they never admit to any wrong, and force everyone to sign papers absolving SGM of any damages, they’ll be safe. But something will happen. Where SGM has closed all the doors, God himself will open a window – and toss in a stone. “Everyone who [voluntarily] falls on that stone will be broken to pieces, but he on whom it falls will be crushed.”
I don’t think God judges Christians in this life – but he does discipline us. Unless they repent and confess their sins of arrogance and pride, SGM leaders are facing some severe discipline from God. I don’t know what it will be, or how it will come. However, that discipline – like the stone falling on someone to crush them – will be far worse than the damage that would be caused by voluntary admissions of wrongdoing. It could even bring the end of the entire ministry.
It will be discipline “as biblically defined.”
“Then suddenly the Lord you are seeking will come to his temple; the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, will come,” says the LORD Almighty. But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears? For he will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap. He will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver; he will purify the Levites and refine them like gold and silver. Then the LORD will have men who will bring offerings in righteousness….”
“For our God is a consuming fire.”
So – to prevent that stone from sailing through the window of Fortress SGM; to prevent the refiner’s fire from blazing throughout the edifice – Isn’t there one single pastor in all the churches who will stand up and admit, in public, that the stories told on these blogs aren’t gossip and slander, but Truth?
Isn’t there one pastor in SGM willing to place his cushy job on the line, for the sake of Truth?
Isn’t there one pastor willing serve as an intercessor for SGM, humbling himself in the dust, repenting on behalf of the ministry, and calling for mercy and forgiveness from the God of the refiner’s fire?
“I looked for a man among them who would…stand before me in the gap on behalf of the land so I would not have to destroy it, but I found none. So I will pour out my wrath on them and consume them with my fiery anger, bringing down on their own heads all they have done, declares the Sovereign LORD.”
“It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.”
September 16th, 2008 at 11:01 am
”
We have created this blog, 2 years after we left SGC/SGM, after becoming aware that there are many who have experienced the effects of SGM’s authoritarian leadership style. We have heard similar (or worse) stories from people around the country who are in differing stages of detox. The experience has been gut-wrenching.
Our desire is two-fold. To provide a safe haven for those who have left, are considering leaving, or have thought about joining an SGM church. You are safe here, and will receive informed, loving answers to your questions. We want to provide a healing environment for those, who like us, are asking-”why and how did this happen?”, “how do we work though the many issues we are faced with?”, and “where do we go from here?”
”
I would address CG, but she doesn’t listen to anyone and apparently thinks it’s ok to slander everyone who posts here by calling us all bitter liars. This place is supposed to be a refuge from people like her, it hurts every time I read through her posts talking about us who post here like we aren’t worth anything and that everything we and our families went through is meaningless.
How can we heal like this?
September 16th, 2008 at 11:53 am
Ellie,
Gottcha. That is a concern. Maybe Jim will move the conversation to a different thread. CG’s posts are certainly not helping those who are trying to “move on” from the same old issues. Maybe we should have a “drive-by” thread for those who only hit and run, who aren’t really listening to what is being said. But I’m sure Jim will figure it out. This has to stay a safe place for people.
September 16th, 2008 at 1:25 pm
I think I will begin the transition back to the topic of this htread – moving on….and share some of my latest praise in my journey out of SGM.
It has been an incredible road, one that I will never forget. The Word of God is always first and foremost my “North Pole” in terms of not getting off track. But on those days I get frustrated, or think I am crazy, or dry..it is good ot know there are others out there to encourage me and pray for me. It is a testimony to the TRUE Body of Christ, His Spirit, and the love among the saints that a person terribly hurt within the “church” (SGM) can find love, support and exhortation from others in the Body.
I think often that if I had left SGM and had not had a support system such as this, how much more difficult it would be. Just having you guys here is a constant reminder that the Body is not totally broken – something I forget the more I dwell on the problems in Sovereign Grace Ministries and their leadership. It would be very easy, and was more tempting in the beginning, to just chalk up the spiritual abuse to “all churches suck and I don’t trust anymore anymore, least of all a church”.
I can readily see why so many flock to the Emergent church movement, become agnostic, lost faith altogether, or become bitter and cease the grow in the grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus.
I honestly don’t know what a healthy, functioning Body looks like in terms of the traditional church as seen in history (the buildings, offices, catechisms, etc which are all just religion). But the people, the actual Bride of Christ, individually have shown me that it is possible to function as the Word describes to us the Body should work – each doing his part, building one another up, edifying, loving, and exalting Christ. We are not perfect. But if these are our goals, then even in our imprefections Christ is glorified.
Jim and Carole – I’ll say it again: speaking the truth has always and will always be met with accusations of slander, gossip, heresy, etc. It has always been so by the saints of God who dared to follow Him alone, and defy man’s doctrines, man’s teachings, man’s religion, and man himself. It is a lonely road. But the few on it with you that the Lord allows you to meet along the way will more than encourage you to press on, He is our goal, our vision, and He is more than worth it.
September 16th, 2008 at 4:33 pm
Ellie,
Thanks for speaking up! I should have treated this thread in the same way I treat “Your Story”. I will in the future. If I can move the recent exchanges over to “Concerned?”, I will.
September 16th, 2008 at 5:36 pm
Going back to what *I* wanted to talk about (cuz it’s all about me, right?), way way up in this long column – here’s a link to another funny video of the type that could be made to illustrate illogical/unbiblical SGM stuff. It uses a 3-d sculpture of “life” to help illustrate the various ways we look at the life God’s given us.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xz4uKu_QsZM
September 16th, 2008 at 6:02 pm
Keep-that’s a good video. Way out of my gifting. Let me know when you make one
And what’s wrong with wanting a Corvette? Or a Porsche?
September 16th, 2008 at 9:47 pm
Some folks here may’ve already seen this, but here’s an example of the kind of repentance that former SGMers deserve from abusive leaders, to be able to heal and truly move on. This is written by Barbara, who with her husband was part of the leadership of a highly controlling church – until they escaped. As “The Person Formerly Known As Your Leader,” she’s typed-out a confessional, repentant letter to the people she hurt.
Here’s one of her many confessions:
“I taught you that with leaders, you did not have the right to expect friendship or any sort of loyalty back. I told you that you should become what I had become, completely a servant. They owed you and me nothing. I have learned to watch out for ‘friendships’ where I am the servant only. I have learned my ’servanthood’ was nothing more than trying to manipulate myself into prominence.”
Read the rest here: http://snurl.com/3qxzb [retrofited_blogspot_com]
September 18th, 2008 at 4:30 pm
“I think it’s just a matter of time, if SGM doesn’t come forward voluntarily, before someone does initiate a lawsuit. The fact that SGM is forcing all the sheep to sign forms, essentially absolving SGM of any responsibility for anything they say or do, is evidence they’ve pulled up the drawbridge, have double-locked all the doors, and are boiling pots of oil to dump on any attackers. ”
I am dying to know if such a document would hold up in court. Does anyone have a copy of it or knows what it says? I have a close friend who is an attorney who would probably have a gander over it to see if it’s even legally plausible for anyone to use to protect themselves in court.
September 18th, 2008 at 5:17 pm
Stunned-you can download it on this page:
http://www.covlife.org/ministries/starting_point
September 18th, 2008 at 9:11 pm
don’t other churches have you sign forms of membership as well? all it’s saying is that you agree with what the church believes… at least i think it does. maybe i’ll have to go back and read it again.
and practically speaking, becoming a member simply helps keep order in the church. in larger churches, you can’t have just anybody serving in childrens ministry. someone has to make sure they aren’t lunatics.
also it’s helpful for pastors so they make sure everyone is being cared for.
I don’t understand the big deal with signing a form.
September 18th, 2008 at 11:09 pm
I can shout in from the PCA–in the three churches we have joined over the last twenty years, membership did not consist of signing anything. However, membership is required in all three of them in order to teach or work with kids.
Usually, the process is to take a membership class, two-three meetings, led by one of the elders, which serves to explain the doctrines of the church.
Then, each member meets with two elders, who hear his/her testimony and get to know his/her story. If there is the suspicion that the potential member is not a believer in Jesus, that will be addressed at that time.
If a member decides to leave, the church to which he next applies, (regardless of denomination), contacts this last church, for transfer of membership. This is usually straightforward.
We have never have to sign anything saying that we will attend morning services and small groups, or that if we leave the city, we will join a like-minded church in the new city. I get the feeling there is the implication that a member will never make a church membership move within the same locale, in the CLC membership contract.
I have a dear friend struggling over leaving her ‘local church,’ (SGM), who thinks she is going to ‘get in trouble.’ So very sad. Those Baptists across the street from the ‘local church,’ with the little old pastor and his wife, are the beloved Bride of Christ. So is that Bible Church down the road, us Presbyterians across town, and a whole host of beloved saints meeting in buildings all over your town, each lifting up the name of Jesus.
To imply that one group is superior to another REALLY gives away a skewed view of the Body of Christ.
Come breathe the free air.
September 19th, 2008 at 12:05 am
Once again, well said RT.
September 19th, 2008 at 5:25 pm
Wow…I just got caught up.
I have to say, it hurts my heart to see someone so vehemently defending a man (or men) and distorting the truth to do so when people are being hurt by this man (or men). And it seems like such a clear cut example of idolatry. Loyalty gone wrong is scary to me.
I look at my family now and we are very nearly “whole” again. But, not completely. I still have an adult child who is hypnotized by the SGM trance. I must admit, I find it hard not to feel anger well up in me when someone comes along with such a “oh sure, you’re just making this up” mentality. Do we have to experience something ourselves before we can believe it? Do I have to get hit by a car before I know the damage it does to the human body? Just once, I’d like to hear someone from SGM say …”I believe you, it’s wrong, I’ll stand by you and help you heal.” Why does that never happen?
September 19th, 2008 at 5:35 pm
Hi IGO! Welcome back!
You said: “Just once, I’d like to hear someone from SGM say …”I believe you, it’s wrong, I’ll stand by you and help you heal.” Why does that never happen? ”
I think we are starting to see this happen… our co-host, Protestant Knight, is an amazing example of this, as he is still involved in his SGM church, but sees the problems within it’s leadership. And, not only does he see it, but he is speaking out on The Refuge, seeking reform for the church he loves. Through his words and his actions, he is standing by us, helping us heal, validating our experiences, and loving us and caring for us, while still loving SGM.
Because of PK and his wife, and others who comment here that are still in an SGM church (not CG and others of her ilk), I am filled with even greater hope and faith in God that reform will take place.
I hope you are, too!
September 19th, 2008 at 10:23 pm
Greetings!
I have decided to end my time here (although it was very short). I think this site can be good for some people – but I am not one of them. I do respect what you are doing and I wish all of you well. I will continue to pray for SGM to have a change of heart. Kind regards and take care.
September 19th, 2008 at 11:00 pm
Butterfly,
I highly respect your desire to guard your heart.
You will be missed.
September 20th, 2008 at 8:32 am
Jim,
Thank you that really means alot to me. I want everyone to know that it is not because of anyone here that I am signing off. God has given me a lot of healing from what happened at SGM and so for me being here is not healing but stirs up unneccessary emotion. I do really respect what Jim and PK are doing. I think there is a godly purpose for you in being here. But for me it is more curiousity than anything and I don’t see that being a good motive. I will still be checking in on Spriritual Tyranny. That is more my speed and would save me time by going to just one site and being there is not emotional for me although it often gives me a great laugh and helps me see things more clearly. I have only about one hour of free time a day and spending it here has meant less time with God. I do also want to guard my heart and tame my tongue and sometimes the easiest way to do that is to talk less! I do want all to know I have nothing but respect and love for what you are doing and I do hope that SGM ears begin to do more than “listen” and try to make you go away but that they “hear” and change.
Peace and Love,
BFLy
September 20th, 2008 at 8:47 am
Butterfly:
Go with God, and may He bless you and keep you and make His face to shine upon you. I hope our exchanges haven’t contributed to this… please forgive me for that.
You will be missed.
…pk
September 20th, 2008 at 10:12 am
PK,
None of the exchanges from anyone here weigh in on my decision and I don’t want anyone to think so, esp. Jim, Concerned, & yourself. I would not leave over any minor disagreement but would stay if staying was God’s best for me. It truly is for the reasons I described above. I think this site will be really helpful for those just leaving or that still want to talk about it. I think for me being several years free – It is just time to move forward with the new thing God is doing in my life. I have nothing but respect for each person here.
Thank you for your blessing!
Peace & Love,
BFly
September 20th, 2008 at 10:14 am
I will sure miss you here, Butterfly, but I am glad you are going to be checking in at Spiritual Tyranny!
Don’t want to not “see” you again! If you want, you can get my email from Jim.
{{{{{{{{{{{{ BF}}}}}}}}}}}}}
September 20th, 2008 at 1:00 pm
Butterfly,
We’ll miss you!
September 20th, 2008 at 2:38 pm
Butterfly,
I wish you well and many blessings and adventures.
September 28th, 2008 at 11:57 am
Aahhh! This weekend I had one of those rare moments when the light bulb clicks (okay, I’m told I’m not the brightest bulb in the pack) and I realize something that many of you probably already know. First I must recap a bit. As some of you know we are still “on the fence” as we are looking to cut ourselves free from our SG church (visiting other churches, etc.). Well, for the past month or so I’ve felt uneasy about not bringing my offering (some call it tithe) to our local church given our current status (ie, one foot out the door). This has resulted in some angst over my not being in compliance with what I’ve been taught as one of those incontravertible facts of Christendom, meaning bringing the whole tithe into the [SG church] storehouse. BUT, lo and behold while I’ve not been “tithing” for close to a month now, THE BOTTOM HASN’T DROPPED OUT IN OUR FINANCES! (and no, I don’t think we’re responsible for the Wall St. mess either). This being said please understand one thing; I’m in no way pushing aside God’s command to give, to support our local church, to support the laborer worthy of his wage, etc. etc. I very much believe and support that, have always believed this and am looking forward to doing so once more with a whole heart. But I’ve discovered that my heavenly Father isn’t up there looking down at me in utter disdain because I haven’t been tithing, and that there is no man in a black hood with my neck in the Guillotine ready to pull the lever because I’ve “robbed God”. I believe our Father understands my plight, and better yet understands my heart even more than I do (what a comfort!) I’ve also recently put two and two together on something I’ve been taught these many years, particularly at the teaching of Professor Purswell. “Right doctrine leads to right thinking which leads to right living”. Sounds good, right? (pun intended). Well that works fine except for the propensity that leads us to “wrong” legalism. Allow me to explain. There’s absolutely nothing, and I mean nothing wrong with right doctrine. That’s God’s gift to us, although what’s considered “right” is primarily based on exegetical skill and interpretation. Let’s assume for this discussion that SGM promotes “right” doctrine. The problem comes when we live in an environment that continuously evaluates our “right living” as a barometer of our “right thinking” and hence “right doctrine”. Confusing? Absolutely! But here’s the point: our living in a perpetual state of evaluation often (as in this case) leads to the utmost form of legalism, and as Philip Yancey put’s it, ungrace. So to wrap up this slight rant, I refuse to cowed under the mighty arm of legalism and the ensuing guilt and I choose to live under grace. And I’m anxious (in a good way) to see what God has for our family in the coming weeks as we continue to visit other local expressions of the body of Christ in hopes of finding our place.
September 28th, 2008 at 12:52 pm
OTF-
You said:
But here’s the point: our living in a perpetual state of evaluation often (as in this case) leads to the utmost form of legalism, and as Philip Yancey put’s it, ungrace. So to wrap up this slight rant, I refuse to cowed under the mighty arm of legalism and the ensuing guilt and I choose to live under grace.
Excellent!
BTW, as a New Testament Christian, you are under no Biblical command to tithe. ZERO. Look it up
September 28th, 2008 at 12:53 pm
“…living in a perpetual state of evaluation…”
WOW…that’s what it’s like!
GREAT post, otf!!
September 28th, 2008 at 1:02 pm
What Jim said.
In fact, operating out of fear of (fill in the blank here, but fear of something,) is a big red flag for me.
Coersion to tithe using fear of financial ruin (tithe to the church or tithe to the repair man,) is bondage, nothing less.
September 28th, 2008 at 3:59 pm
Part of the reason I struggled, so much when I left SG after a gazillion years, was that so many trusted leaders told me “GOD WILL OPPOSE EVERYTHING YOU DO” It it soooo freeing to really believe that God loves me and cares deeply about what I just experienced. He is walking me through.
September 28th, 2008 at 5:20 pm
“Right doctrine leads to right thinking which leads to right living”.
Wow, what CRAZY thinking. You see, in spite of what I think of do, I still don’t live right! I still… drum roll please… sin. How could anyone think that “right thinking” (hmm, anyone else think “right thinking” sounds rather Third Reich-ish or Stalinistic?)… where was I? Yes… how could anyone think that “right thinking” could do a greater work in our lives than the Holy Spirit could? I mean, even the Holy Spirit, living and breathing in me can’t make me perfect or even “live right” a large portion of my day.
I thought SGM taught that we are all sinners and everything we do is shot through with sin. How, therefore, is there any hope of right living merely because we have “right thinking”? Seems contrary to what their theology. So is their theology that no man is good and we all sin all day correct or is their thinking that right thinking can get us to live right correct? Seems a quandry to me.
September 28th, 2008 at 9:33 pm
It would seem to go against the Calvinistic theology.
But its so darn tempting to teach a concept like right thinking when *you* get to tell everyone what constitutes right thinking. Such power, its almost aphrodisiatic.
And one can see how it can extend its talons to grip people like Charlie that are trying to breath in the fresh air of freedom and bask in the sunshine of grace.
September 28th, 2008 at 9:47 pm
Based upon the issue of polity alone, we at Sovereign Grace Ministries cannot even begin to broach the claim of right doctrine, even by a mile.
This is a false statement (obviously, I know) as God is constantly shaping us on that potter’s wheel the duration of our lives. Rather than Purswell or anyone else going for the absolutist throat on this, it might be better phrased as:
This phrase would square pretty securely with scripture; of important note is that this contributes absolute zero to our salvation. Try handing God a volume of your “right doctrine” on Judgment Day and let me know how it works out for you. When statements about doctrine in this sense are proclaimed so heavy-handedly, it sort of defeats the “Christ and Him Crucified” motif of our theology, in my opinion.
Thank God that no matter how many pages of Systematic Theology I memorize, it will be the forgiveness of my sins and the imputation of Christ’s righteousness onto me that saves me. Other things that will NOT save your soul: an acceptable grimace during singing hymns; your audio collection of sermons; your unabridged volumes of Spurgeon’s works; riding the coattails of your family’s faith, etc.
And if we’re going to beat the “rewards” dog to death, I think it best to let God determine your rewards, and not Jeff Purswell or anyone else.
I don’t think we ever “arrive” at the purest form of anything (short of glimpsing Christ) as far as scripture is concerned. Many will interpret this as a just-keep-tryin’ defeatist line of reasoning, and my only response is to that is ‘time to get over yourself’.
…pk
September 29th, 2008 at 1:52 am
The problem with Jeff’s little saying, is that it does not define right doctrine and the such. If he means knowing about right doctrine, James makes it clear that even the demons are monotheistic.
I remember the day it hit me, that there was more than just “right doctrine”… it was the day a close family friend (Who was a Calvinist and would give his testimony using TULIP as his framing narrative) was arrested and convicted of armed robbery and sexual assault. He knew all the lingo and doctrines and knew how to joke about Arminians-but it sure didn’t add up to a hill of beans the day he chose to shrug off his “right doctrine” and chose to rob and rape his neighbor instead of love them and trust God for supporting his material needs. It has to be more than just having an airtight theology…it must lead us to faith expressing itself in love. Otherwise it’s useless…
Don’t get me wrong, I think Jesus loves it when we get our theology right. But only if it leads us back to him and the life he’s gained for us thru the cross and resurrection.
September 29th, 2008 at 8:18 am
Musicman,
Your post reminds me of the horrible statistic that a disproportioinally large number of sexual criminals are deeply religious folks. No, I’m not picking on the Catholic church here. This crosses all denominational lines and deals with very sincere Christians.
Yours and PK’s above statements are correct.. It’s about Jesus, His work, not us and anything we could possibly do. We are fallen, yet created in the very image of God himself. As if I will ever be able to figure that one out.
Stunned
but still forgiven and loved- how amazing is that?
September 29th, 2008 at 9:08 pm
TooFunny,
Obviously no one witnessed your cruelty, but it seems that you’re the one who needs to get a life.
Or maybe a heart.
Blogs make cowards feel manly, don’t they? Enjoy your “life”.
September 30th, 2008 at 1:02 am
Jim, you are a tough act to follow, but at the risk of detracting from your last comment, I’m going to return to OTF’s comments about tithing.
Having been in a few SGM churches under several different pastors over the years, I have an interesting observation:
One pastor would notice one of his flock “straying,” and would immediately check the church records for that sheep’s giving patterns. And as I recall he would periodically peruse everyone’s giving records just to check the pulse on various people’s commitment, because the dropoff of giving would be the “first indicator” of straying.
Then we had another pastor who told us once that he never looked at the giving records, and emphatically stated that he did NOT want to see them ever. Although he never spelled it out, I connected the dots (in my mind at least) this way: that he didn’t want to judge any member for their lack of giving, nor think too highly of a member for their generous giving. Now maybe some would say that’s irresponsible and naive, but after the experience with the above-mentioned micro-managing pastor, I found it very refreshing.
My point is: both these pastors were in SGM churches. I’m not sure there’s any blueprint for “How to Behave with the Giving Records” in the Sr. Pastoral Handbook, but it’s obvious that each man is going to be different….in a variety of areas.
Men, at their best, are still just men after all. I’m sure that’s a quote by some wonderful Old Dead Guy, but I can’t seem to remember whom. Oh, perhaps the Knight will know!
Good night all,
PD
September 30th, 2008 at 10:04 am
Well,
“They tried to convince me that “I” – “we” should set up direct deposit for tithing, because it was easier for ones SP wife to do the book keeping…..along those lines I always did wonder how a church so small in numbers had so many electronic gadgets and did not have enough money for simple ministry. I don’t think think the sheep are as “dumb” as one SP would like to think… that is my 2 mites worth…..
September 30th, 2008 at 10:19 pm
I hope I’m not being too premature in my optimism here, but today I called a local church that we plan on attending and I was so absolutely blown away by what I learned in the 30 minute conversation I had with one of the Pastors and I just have to share it with you all, my friends. Although my wife was smart enough to recognize the hand of God here (I told you earlier, I’m not the brightest bulb in the pack
), just about every, and I mean EVERY topic of interest I threw at him (tithing, church polity, small groups, worship style, PASTORAL ACCOUNTABILITY, etc. etc., aligned so precisely with where we want to be, well, it’s just scary. I texted my wife later in the day and said it almost brought tears to my eyes. Now, we haven’t yet attended but are planning on doing so very soon, and we’re oh so hopeful that this will be our new church home where we can both serve and be served. We’re actually EXCITED about church now! Please pray for us as we set out on what I hope to be a very short journey of finding our place in the body of Christ. And please pray that we will find godly wisdom tempered with humility as we prepare to inform our Pastor (by email) and our CG leader at our next CG meeting. Note I said “inform”. I’m not going there begging to be “released” as though we were dogs on a leash (don’t go there folks, although I know it’s tempting). It’s going to be a simple “we’re movin on” type of email, but I do want to be gracious in consideration of the fact that we have received much over the years during our membership, and it would be sinfully ungrateful to “throw out the baby with the bath water”. Anyway, just wanted you all to know to and to say “thanks” for being there.
September 30th, 2008 at 10:26 pm
OTF,
What wonderful news! We are rejoicing with you, not just because you are leaving SGM, but because you have (potentially) found a place to worship and serve. What a blessing to be excited about church again. We’ll be in prayer for the transition.
September 30th, 2008 at 11:16 pm
On the,
Please tell us how it goes. I am praying for you and your family. It is exciting to hear how you will continue to be used in the body of Christ.
September 30th, 2008 at 11:55 pm
OTF,
Breathe the free air, my brother!
I remember waking up on Sundays, right after leaving an abusive church, and being surprised that my mind was on Jesus and that I was looking forward to worshiping him without worrying about horizontal stuff.
I never can figure how and why abusive churches get us to believe that they have some sort of power over their members and where we meet together for corporate worship.
One does not have to be released from the church. How ridiculous! You are not leaving the church, just parking your car in front of another gathering of the same church. The only way one could, as a believer, leave the church (understand my affection for the flowery ”P”), is to wake up one Sunday morning ‘absent from the body, but present with the Lord.’ That is even a paltry example…since the Bride will eventually be all gathered together anyway.
Welcome to freedom! Please drop a note to tell the next part of the story!
October 1st, 2008 at 6:41 am
OTF08:
Praise God! That conversation with the pastor sounds exciting. I will be praying for you and your family. God is wonderful.
PD:
Very interesting story about radically different pastors in regard to the tithe. If only all of them could be like the latter one.
…pk
October 1st, 2008 at 6:04 pm
OTF,
Cool! You are no longer “on the fence”! You’ll have to change your name. It will be wondeful to hear of your experiences in the next few weeks.
October 1st, 2008 at 8:49 pm
Canary,
True enough, OTF08 WILL change, but only after we’ve confirmed where God wants us to be, and oh how we look forward to that day! I’m thinking “OnSolidGround”, what do you think?
OTF
October 2nd, 2008 at 12:40 am
…whether one leave or stays, if they are following God, I’m happy…
just keep the gravatar
October 2nd, 2008 at 8:41 am
Word, Jim, Word!
October 2nd, 2008 at 2:55 pm
OTF,
Yes, I love the gravatar. Keep it! I like OnSolidGround, too. Or, NoKoolAidServedHere. Hee-hee.
That’s a mouthfull.
October 2nd, 2008 at 5:18 pm
OTF, don’t forget – you were on solid ground all along, even when you WERE on the fence!
that is God’s grace towards us, even when we face trials and confusion, in retrospect we see He is always faithful.
Personally, I long to be in a position spiritually where I thank Him IN ADVANCE for the trials and hard times I know will bring Him glory – not only afterwards when I know it all work out in the end.
October 2nd, 2008 at 6:28 pm
Juli said,
Personally, I long to be in a position spiritually where I thank Him IN ADVANCE for the trials and hard times I know will bring Him glory – not only afterwards when I know it all work out in the end.
Me too. Haven’t gotten there, yet. However, I have learned to resist fear when things get hairy. But we’re growing in God! That’s so exciting! You, especially. You just aren’t the same person you were a few months ago. You inspire me!
October 22nd, 2008 at 10:18 pm
Hi all.
Well, a few weeks ago we finally made the break, left our SG church and have since begun worshipping and fellowshipping in another local church. Yes, many of you know me by another name on both this and the SGM Survivors blog, but out of fear of retribution or other potential repurcussions I’m not comfortable just yet in making the public crossover. Nevertheless, I want to tell you all that we’re happy and blessed to be where God has placed us, and I couldn’t in my wildest imagination believe that we could have been sovereignly (no pun intended) planted in the new small group such as we’re in! Real people, with real stories, and we didn’t even share our sin! We chatted, shared stories, prayed for various needs, ate great snacks, and just simply got to know one another. Breathe the fresh air! But here’s the kicker; upon leaving the church I posted (snail mail) a letter to our Pastor informing him of our intent to terminate our membership along with a few nondescript details but that I was open to further discussion should he desire more information. That was that. Since then we’ve not gotten ONE (and I mean one) single contact from ANYONE from the church regarding our exit. No emails, no form letters, no Pastoral calls, not even a secretary asking about a forwarding address! In fact, the only confirmation I DID get was that our access to the “Members only” (isn’t that a clothing line at Target?) section on the church website was, DELETED! I admit this is probably too good to be true considering many of the stories posted on these blogs, but nothing? I mean c’mon folks, whatever happened to common courtesy (”we’re sorry to see you go” or “do you have any observations for us?”. (LOL) Has the pendulum swung so completely in the opposite direction now? We’re still slightly stunned, but in a good way. So there you have it friends, the ultimate “under the radar” exit.
October 22nd, 2008 at 11:06 pm
Deleted,
Actually, it would be great if you get “out” under the radar. I would be suprised if people don’t begin calling to ask where you are. I’m so glad you found a great church where you can worship in freedom. Enjoy the fresh air and surround yourself with the Lord’s grace. Though you’ve been “deleted” from SGM, you’ve now “entered” into a season of great joy as you enjoy the Lord (okay, bad computer pun). God’s grace is so amazing. Who can not help but love Him??!! We all stand with you.
October 22nd, 2008 at 11:23 pm
Deleted:
Praise God that you and your fam are thriving.
Christ is sufficient!
…pk
October 22nd, 2008 at 11:39 pm
Breathe the free air, my friend.
Perhaps your post may cause others under the radar to demand that the doors at SGM be thrown open, that a fresh wind would flow! I certainly sense that is PK’s and Jim’s call to them! Wouldn’t it be wonderful.
October 23rd, 2008 at 1:24 am
I was wondering what happened to you, Deleted!! (good name, btw)
I am glad to hear that you’ve found a good church and are enjoying getting to know other brothers and sisters in the Lord.
October 23rd, 2008 at 7:45 am
Enjoy your flight under the SGM radar.
I’m glad you found a nice church to attend.
October 26th, 2008 at 12:38 pm
Deleted, may God’s grace and the liberty you have in Christ cause your love for others to abound. May His face always be before you, and may you follow the ancient paths that lead to life and liberty, (and, incidentally might I add- the pursuit of happiness!)
Our Father’s blessings to you and your family
October 26th, 2008 at 10:49 pm
DB,
Is that you in the picture????
October 26th, 2008 at 10:50 pm
Greetings, everyone, from the Fly.
Fly is buzzing through to let everyone know that Fly has flown. Fly and the fly-mate have flown to a new, grace-filled gathering of fellow believers where the Fly-couple, and the little Flys, are all happily settling in.
~Fly
October 26th, 2008 at 11:49 pm
Fly – good to hear you have moved on as well – wow, I am encouraged. Everyone seems to be finding a new church home…I recently felt like the Lord was telling me it was time to begin seriously praying about it again – I’ve taken a break from looking and visiting, and now I think I will search again. thanks for the words of encouragement guys..
October 27th, 2008 at 12:37 pm
Juli,
That’s great! I know the Lord will lead you to a body of believers that will be just right for you.
Fly,
I’m so glad that the Lord guided you and your family to a place of grace. Enjoy your freedom in Christ. May the Lord’s goodness surround you!
October 27th, 2008 at 9:05 pm
Yes, Canary, an aerial shot, so to speak.
October 28th, 2008 at 10:20 am
That’s so great, Fly!!
November 4th, 2008 at 9:42 am
Now that we are in the process of leaving, we don’t know where to look for another church. We’ve lived in the Towson/ Baltimore area for years so we are familiar with a lot of churches. We just don’t see any good youth ministries within the churches. Maybe we are too picky after micromanaging our teen and young adult. We visited a wonderful church way out in the Aberdeen/Belair area. It takes about 45 minutes to get there. The problem we have seen with the churches near us, range from watered down doctrine and teaching, to women pastors, to teen groups where there is no accountability, to very apathetic youth. Anyone have any suggestions? If you don’t want to endorse any church publicly would you please get my email from Carol or Jim or pk? I’m so confused about looking. I even went on a forum and blog search for anyone excited about their chuch around here-even the Shepherd’s Guide. There was one chuch called Journey that seems to be planting a church in our area. I got excited and looked deeper. Then I saw it-recommended books by CJ,sgm music,etc. Oh well. .
November 15th, 2008 at 8:54 pm
Anxious:
Try pcanet.org and this link to Maryland churches in the PCA.
https://processor.pcanet.org/ac/directory/directory.cfm
November 16th, 2008 at 3:32 pm
formersgmer-thanks.
January 19th, 2009 at 6:10 pm
Hello Friends, I actually requested this category, so please pardon me for not posting to it sooner. As some of you may remember, I was happily part of CLC for many years and part of ministry teams and CG leadership until I fell into disagreement with leadership over several issues including a lack of (real) missions efforts, the process for installing and removing leaders, sloppy doctrine, and my own dismissal as a CG leader. My series of meetings with pastors lasted 9 months and ended well from an administrative stand point. They finally repented of abusive behavior, and I agreed to move on to a more suitable church. However, the process was so drawn out and damaging that 13 years later I was still hurt and essentially spiritually disabled. Only in the past year have I been able to say that I’ve moved on by the love of God and care from the Body of Christ.
So, here are some ideas on what I went through. I hope they are helpful.
Grieving
1. Denial – this is not happening to me. It only happens to “problem” people. I’ve been so devoted.
2. Anger – this where you try to fight leadership and express your hurt and outrage, thinking they are reasonable, compassionate, and will validate you. They will not.
3. Bargaining – you think you can repair the situation or change the leaders, policy, or doctrine. You may even try to negotiate terms under which you can stay. You cannot. Once SGM pastors remove you from a position, accuse you of sin, or start suggesting that you find another church, you are done. Someone please prove me wrong.
4. Depression – real, disabling, and even life threatening depression can set in. You question your faith, any form of organized church, even the worth of you own soul. You may feel that you have lost your joy, your calling, your faith, even your will to live. The cause of this is the tendency of leadership is to turn a disagreement over an issue to an attack on your very person. The intent is to disable you so you won’t cause problems.
5. Acceptance – yes it really did happen. It may take a while to realize the full extent of who hurt you and what they did, but this is critical. Yes, they were people you loved and admired, and yes, what they did was wrong. You may have lost friends or the sense of community and purpose you loved so much. Have hope, God can and will restore this.
Obviously, these are the standard stages of grieving a la SGM. Several friends have described leaving SGM as a death or a divorce. I think it is in a very real sense. For many ex-SGMers, the depth of grieving is that profound. I had to allow myself the time and space to go through the grieving process.
January 19th, 2009 at 6:13 pm
Recovery
Several of my friends have struggled as I did with life after SGM. Here is a beginning list of ideas on how to recover, In Christ, all that was taken away from you by spiritual abuse. Please contribute your own ideas.
1. Tell your story – This is really key to recovery. I recommend telling your story over and over in full detail to few mature, objective, and trusted Christians. When you get that stunned look like, “They did what?” you begin to finally realize the extent of abnormal behavior at SGM. No detail is too small, no wound to minor that it does not need to be healed. One of my biggest mistakes over many years was trying to be brave and not admitting to myself how often and how deeply I was hurt. In a manipulative environment, subtle tactics like offhand comments or withholding of support can wound as gravely as open abuse. Don’t be surprises if you have to share your story in many different ways until you get it all out and are completely healed. My hope and prayer is that we all receive the compassion from the Body or Christ that we sought from the beginning.
2. Admit your faults – you may have contributed to the problem with your attitudes or actions. This may range from depending too much on the acceptance of others, to idolizing leaders, to angry reactions and trying to get back at those that hurt you, or holding onto resentment for many years. In no way can you ever do or say anything that justifies abuse, but the goal of self examination is to keep a clear conscience before the Lord.
3. Forgive – this can often be a ongoing and even daily process until you feel no pain or anger towards those that hurt you. There are many good books on forgiveness, maybe someone can recommend some resources.
4. Keep yourself in the love of God – stay close to your loving Father in prayer, bible study and other devotions. Stay in fellowship with other believers. It may take a while to find a church or ministry where you are loved and can function as designed, but it will happen because God is faithful to His purpose for you.
5. Healing – related to the four points above is prayer for healing. I recommend that any time you share your story, don’t leave with an open wound. Extend and ask for forgiveness and have your friends lay hands on you and pray for emotional healing. I can’t tell you how much this has helped me and restored my faith in the Body of Christ.
6. Where was I? – at some point your hopes and dreams were crushed. Dust off those youthful dreams of serving Jesus. Every dream, gift, ability, and calling God ever spoke to you is just as valid as it ever was. Nothing heals the pain of personal disappointment like the excitement of sharing the gospel and serving others. I had to go back to goals I had 15 years ago and start pursuing them again.
7. Recover your identity in Christ – you are who God says you are, not what others say about you. Renounce any curses spoken against you (you’re rebellious, you’re not called etc.) and confess scripture over yourself. As time goes on and you begin to function in a healthy way in church, you will find that your unique personality and gifts are useful and appreciated and that you are who you thought you were.
Personal note
I’ve been in a great church for the last 3 ½ years, and I’m happy to say that I have received an abundance of grace and mercy. It is possible to find a church with balanced doctrine, a sincere care for others, no desire to control others, and an open format for doing ministry. I had to move cross country to find it, but it was one of the best decisions I ever made. I can finally talk about my experience at SGM without pain and recognize all the love I received there along with trials. I’ve been able to keep a few close friends from SGM. I am aware of both the strengths and weaknesses of the SGM. Finally, I am headed to the Middle East this summer on a short term missions trip. I have an interview on Sunday to see if they want me to lead the team. Yeah God!
January 19th, 2009 at 7:00 pm
GregC,
Thank you for sharing that. I’m going to save what you wrote.
I think I’m stuck in 4. Depression, of Grieving, with still some bouncebacks to 1. Denial.
Your words about, “this is not happening to me. It only happens to “problem” people. I’ve been so devoted,” are so true. I kept thinking at the time, and still think, I can’t believe this. The process was so disproportionate it seemed. The kind of stuff you think would be done if there was open and flagrant rebellion against God.
Your words, “Here is a beginning list of ideas on how to recover, In Christ, all that was taken away from you by spiritual abuse,” also really hit home. I so long to see that.
“In a manipulative environment, subtle tactics like offhand comments or withholding of support can wound as gravely as open abuse,” is also helpful, because it’s true.
Thank you again.
I am so glad to hear you’re doing so well. It gives hope.
January 19th, 2009 at 7:12 pm
Thanks GregC
That really helps.
January 19th, 2009 at 7:22 pm
It’s funny–it is always happening to the problem people.
Then, one day, you become a problem person.
But no one wants to come alongside you. why? Because you are, obviously, a problem person!
Blecck.
January 19th, 2009 at 7:42 pm
GregC,
Your posts are concise, practical resources for those who are currently living where you have already lived. God bless you on your upcoming mission trip!
Anxious,
Been thinking about you and notw. How are you doing?
January 19th, 2009 at 7:58 pm
Hi Gracie,
We’re hanging in there. My daughter is still blogging about all the sgm problems and getting some interesting responses. I’m sure she will comment as things happen. I think we are at #4( not to the extent of being life threatening) in GregC’s first post. I know things will get better but it seems so hard right now.
January 19th, 2009 at 8:21 pm
Thank you, GregC. Those are important steps to consider.
January 19th, 2009 at 11:04 pm
Wow, thanks GregC! I have to agree that I probably fit in 4 right now for the grieving stage and I’m trying to figure out how to get back to 6 for the recovery. I have felt God very specifically calling and molding me to serve yet this past year have been drained of everything. I hope I can start dreaming and moving forward again soon!
January 20th, 2009 at 1:19 am
Greg, awesome steps! I totally agree, very helpful to others. I love “steps” and things to do- one of the reasons I made an excellent legalist!
Seriously though, these are very helpful to those thinking of leaving, just leaving, whatever stage.
Can I add just two things for those who might be finding yourself just going through these for the first time? (and btw, I’m still going through this, but I’ve grwon much more familiar with the steps since I keep revisiting them in the healing process!)
First, these steps are not always sequential. You can move in and out of steps, back and forth, many times..this is normal. It is not like you go step 1,2,3, etc and you are done. If you find yourself slipping in and out of various stages, take heart- you are STILL healing…there are not steps backwards, you are still moving forward even if it FEELS like backwards, once you recognize the problem, you’ve already begun the healing process.
Secondly, I would add Relief as a step. This can occur immediately after you 1)find out about the blogs or the “big picture” and don’t feel alone or insane anymore and/or 2) when you leave your church or are asked to leave
The overwhelming feeling of relief also is something that changes…I still have relief, but it isn’t the same as the first day. It has matured into a deeper joy now. But initially, that relief should be embraced, enjoyed, and if you start to “lose it” don’t freak out. That’s normal too. Sometimes when you’ve been in an abusive situation, you get numb, and then when the emotions and feelings start coming back, they come back ten-fold, and it can be overwhelming. Normal. So just recognize that and cut yourself some slack.
Some days are very emotional, and not the “feel good” kind of emotions like relief and joy. Some days the fear, depression, anger, etc settle in. Don’t panic. Take one day at a time. And don’t beat yourself up if you have an angry day every now and then..esp if you come on the blogs and you’re bent out of shape and it comes out on here, most of us will understand why. Just having an angry day! I’ve recently been learning this one again…I have angry days and think I’m falling backwards, but that is a lie, it is still moving forwards..I just have to work through it with God’s grace.
A person in AA would say “Work the Program” (I think is the terminology), even when things get tough. In our case, we need to “Stay Tight With Jesus” when it gets tough. Focus on spending time in His Word, listening for His voice and learning to hear Him again, then reach out to others, keep talking about things, don’t isolate yourself, and PRAY PRAY PRAY. He will see you through and use others in the Body to help you! (this last part is also His way of reassuring you that not EVERYONE in the Body will hurt you…as RT always says, the Body of Christ is bigger than just SGM, it is time for SGMers to realize that for themselves.)
Remember the ol’ train with Faith as the engine, and feelings as the caboose? Don’t put our caboose up front…our feelings may seem to be out of wack, but get your faith in line and the feelings will follow, eventually. Do what you know God’s Word tells you to do. Listen to His voice. Don’t get distracted with feelings, acknowledge them, but don’t let them rule you or determine your mindset. Faith should determine feelings, not our feelings determining our faith. But many of us have powerfully strong feelings to deal with, so it is hard to remember that, but we must. If we don’t, we will stumble as we allow our feelings that are largely not based on truth to determine our actions (not based on truth since we’ve been under much manipulation and deception)
January 20th, 2009 at 7:55 am
I would have been blessed by some exit counciling, I think.
Greg’s advice rings true to me.
I hope people in this wave of turmoil will receive the help they need as they chose to leave SGM churches. The process is much more daunting than people imagine.
January 20th, 2009 at 8:27 am
GregC – just the ticket!
January 20th, 2009 at 12:43 pm
I’m so glad I accidentally clicked on this section.
God moved dramatically on my behalf when we left PDI ten or so years ago. I want to point out several people who were helpful and encouraging to me since the church I came out of is in crisis right now in Jan. 2009:
Cathy Tull – I found her in the hallway of another church I was visiting soon after we left — she was holding a woman in her arms who had recently left SG Chesapeake (back when it was Southside) as she wept uncontrollably. Cathy was there for me as well and was a soldier on the frontlines when it came to taking us under her protective wing and helping us all through. Anyone in Chesapeake who needs affirmation, counsel, and comfort should definitely consider contacting her. She attends Greenbrier Church, I think. Not sure.
My pastor and elders at the Ches. Vineyard — Oscar Richardson, Elston Brown (who prayed tirelessly for healing for me for many, many years whenever I asked), Steve Elliott, Joel Andre. And their wives and also just about everyone at that church. To say they loved me back to life would not be an overstatement. They literally enveloped me with the love of Jesus, no questions asked. The refreshing that came as a result was unbelievable. This is a small fellowship of believers and their church has a reputation for being like a hospital. I see why. They are not like other Vineyards, so don’t expect it to be beachy and Vineyard-like. You’ll hear shofars and Hebrew blessings and lots of time for worship and prayer ministry at the end of the service.
Now that I’ve outed my favorite people in the entire world…
My restoration came in spurts. There were moments where I’d see someone at a yard sale or WalMart and avert my eyes, take my cart elsewhere, run away. I’d go home and cry. There were other times I’d walk up to them and chat for a minute about whatever — the weather, our children. Then I’d go home and cry. They always said, “We’ll have to get together sometime!” I knew they would never call or even return my calls. It was especially tough because they all lived within a mile or two of my house. My children missed their children and asked about them often. They still do.
Then after a few years of involvement in a new church and freedom in Christ, I finally felt free of the shame and able to speak to them on the street once more. Now, I found I had a fresh compassion for them. They were beginning to look haggard and worn like I used to and I felt sad for the bondage they were in. My heart began to break for them as it should have at first but couldn’t. I started to pray.
We moved to a different state after that. My husband faced two different seven month stints of unemployment because the company he worked for in Virginia was sold and everyone laid off. It was hard. I began to lose my footing and started feeling the shame issues again. I was thankful to be in another town (Nashville) where I wouldn’t run into any of them in my vulnerable condition. His new job was in Charlotte, NC. We moved again and got back on our feet.
A few years later, fast forwarding to 2008, something began stirring. I ran into a woman who had joined my homeschool group who went to a SG church here in town. I had told her up front several years earlier when we first moved here that I had issues with her church. She said it was probably just immaturity on the part of those people who had hurt me and said her church was not like that. (Crossway. It is — but to talk about that would be a huge digression.) I ran into her a few years later (back to 2008) and she looked different. Her eyes were brighter and she looked younger. I’m not kidding! I apologized for acting so strange about her church when I first met her, and she told me she doesn’t go there anymore, that I had been right, and she led me to these two websites.
After reading here and at Survivors, I cried so much! Tears of relief and joy and thankfulness to God. I was then (only then — ten years later!) able to fully forgive those who had hurt me. Now here’s the miraculous part. Almost immediately — within three days of my forgiving everyone by name — my daughter discovered our former pastor’s daughter was on Facebook and her town was listed as Charlotte. She said, “Mom, I think she lives here now!” Sure enough. Our former pastor in Chesapeake is now in my town. I prayed, called her, and we were reconciled. We prayed together on the phone, both crying. Now, this is only possible with God. And He had a special, perfect moment in time prepared for it. That moment was after I had fully forgiven these people! Isn’t that fantastic? It gets better. I got on Facebook and found our former Care Group leader’s wife. We were reconciled, too!
Fast forward less than a month and our family is visiting Virginia (Nov. ‘08). We’re invited over to a friend’s house from SG. With no hesitation (don’t have any now that all is forgiven) I accept. And more reconciliation results!
Suddenly and quite surprisingly, we are now reconciled with the pastor, the Care Group leaders, and several of our former Care Group members.
All within one month’s time!
I don’t understand all the hows and whys of God’s plan, but I can tell you that He is working within and without SGM. He wants to, if only people will listen, shore up the doctrine, bless the communities, and deliver those who will let Him from the bondage to false doctrine they previously endured. It’s all possible because all is possible with God.
Reconciling with people doesn’t mean you suddenly agree with their doctrine. It means all is forgiven. You are now working side by side to bring Him glory in all you do. It’s really been an exciting journey for me. I constantly look at the details of how this all worked itself out — from us leaving the town we moved to after we left Virginia (Nashville) and coming to Charlotte and our former pastors also moving to Charlotte — and just shake my head at the goodness of God.
And by the way, the only way I was able to forgive was because He ENABLED me to.
I see this website and the survivors site as VITAL components in my healing and ability to forgive. My friends Elaine and Vince and Monica and others have helped bring validation and understanding, but it was God who ordered the steps that brought me here. Are there others who aren’t yet reconciled to me? Sure! But I am so encouraged!
I have to out a couple more people, too. Leslie, my dear, dear friend and fellow neighborhood Bible Study leader, got me through the first few months after leaving and so many theological discussions beforehand — all while going through intense personal trials. Trace and her husband C. ALWAYS stood by us, even though they are fully Reformed and still solid SGMers. Kim S and M. E. did, too. M., your walk with God inspires me to keep going. Your strength and faith amid trials is a shining example to us all! Your love and prayers have been much appreciated. Thank you, all of you, for sticking by me!!
More of my recent miraculous transformation is here: http://creativepowerhouse.blogspot.com
January 20th, 2009 at 12:49 pm
Juli, thanks for several excellent points, especially that the steps are not necessarily sequential. The first set under Grieving are from standard grief counseling. I thought they might serve not as “the way to do it”, but as a useful starting point for counseling those leaving SGM. I think many of us have gone back and forth between stages and even experienced several emotions at the same time. The second set under Recovery are not sequential at all – just ongoing spiritual practices I found helpful in the recovery process. I felt this was necessary for believers because secular models really do not have a concept of restoration that is so central to the Christian experience.
DB, sadly, SGM would never provide exit counselling becase that would be admitting that they are causing people problems which would require change. I think it is up to those who have come out of spirtual abuse to develop ther own resources, communities, and models for recovery. A forum like one is a great launching pad or “skunkworks” for those efforts.
Definition:“Skunk works” or “skunkworks” is widely used in business, engineering, and technical fields to describe a group within an organization given a high degree of autonomy and unhampered by bureaucracy, tasked with working on advanced or secret projects.
January 20th, 2009 at 2:03 pm
FreedomFigher,
thank you so much for sharing your ppst-SGM story, it gives me MUCH hope and encouragement! I think so often all we hear of is the stories that are still raw, full of pain and hurt, confusion, that it is such a blessing to “fast forward” some time and hear your story – of God’s faithfulness to you, His amazing means of bringing reconciliation and how He has changed your heart in the process…wow. and wow again. Thanks for sharing..it truly lifted my spirits today!
January 20th, 2009 at 2:06 pm
FreedomFighter, would it be OK to post your story you shared above on my own blog? I would love to be able to encourage others from my former church who read my blog but not these blogs. I think they do think life ends after SGM. Your story proves otherwise..I will link to your blog as well if that is OK.
you can email me at libertyinchristATliveDOTcom or just answer here..thanks so much..
January 20th, 2009 at 2:40 pm
Juli said, ” I love “steps” and things to do- one of the reasons I made an excellent legalist!”
Ha ha ha! I completely understand that!! Awesome.
January 20th, 2009 at 4:19 pm
“Reconciling with people doesn’t mean you suddenly agree with their doctrine. It means all is forgiven. You are now working side by side to bring Him glory in all you do.”
I love this and will add it to the list of recovery practices. Reconciliation is not always possible when the other party will not participate, but we should always seek it. It is very powerful when it happens.. Thanks FF.
January 20th, 2009 at 6:59 pm
Greg
Thanks for your posts.
I past them on to someone I know who is still having issues from being “asked to leave” her SGM (was PDI) at the time. It can be hard for some people to get over what happened to them.
I am sure it is natural for a while to think that something must be wrong with you. After all, these leaders present themselves as humble and open to correction etc. After hearing this and believing it for many years when you don’t find them open to what you are saying and put the guilt trip on you there is a conflict and you assume this conflict must be due to you and your actions.
It can take a while to see that many times these leaders aren’t as humble and open to correction like they say they are.
Thanks again.
January 21st, 2009 at 8:19 am
Juli, by all means, pass along my story! I am so humbled at what God did. (That GOOD kind of humility!) I prayed for years and suffered silently. Then, after moving on and basically writing off the entire mess as impossibly irreconcilable, WHAM! God shows up! I am seriously pinching myself… Not only that, there is a church here in my city that is made up almost solely of SGM survivors. Even if I had NOT responded to what God was doing, He had a backup plan to woo me toward healing through the precious people there! What I am now is SPOILED!!! LOL!
And you can link to my blog, too. Although the rest of what’s on there is pretty much frivolous.
January 21st, 2009 at 8:35 am
I just reread my story above and it looks like I was either saying my pastor was a woman (which could never be in a SG church) or that I prayed with the pastor’s daughter. I should have said I called the pastor’s WIFE, and was reconciled.
Also, an addendum… When I said I was reconciled to my former CGL’s wife, I should have offered a few more details.
SHE APOLOGIZED FOR SHUNNING ME!!!
That’s much bigger than “we were reconciled — and reconciliation doesn’t always mean you agree on doctrine.” Praise Jesus!
January 21st, 2009 at 10:55 am
FF,
Wow, that is so amazing that she apologized for shunning you! That must have been so healing.
January 21st, 2009 at 12:36 pm
It was, Ellie. And an important thing to realize is that we are all on a journey of faith. We don’t always do everything right — that’s why we need a Savior. I know I left in a huff, thinking these people were off their rockers. Who would want to stay friends with me when it’s written all over my face that I disapprove of their doctrine? So there was culpability on both sides.
But the problem people are facing now is no one at SGM is willing to say, “Geez, I was wrong to teach those corrupt doctrines and I can see now how much it hurt you and God and the body of Christ. AND I’M SORRY!”
January 26th, 2009 at 3:22 am
FF, not only it is amazing that she apologized for shunning you, but that she acknowledged it was shunning!
I’m currently being shunned by 99% of my former SGM church, so the thought that ANYONE would even admit to shunning me, much less apologize for it, seems, well, impossible to be honest. I guess I don’t have the faith just yet, but I am praying for reconciliation.
To be honest, I think them shunning me the Lord has used to help me move on, cling to Him more. It’s funny, the things that hurt the most end up doing us the most good in the long run. What they intended for evil, God meant for good (gee, isn’t that somewhere in the Bible?
So even though the shunning hurts, I identify with Joseph in that respect. And when I am angry at them, I identify with David. And when I begin to love them again, I identify with Christ.
As my dear sister in the Lord always says when she gets hurt by people (esp in the Body)
“This should not hurt so much, I am supposed to be DEAD!” ha ha
January 26th, 2009 at 8:11 am
Hey, Juli,
Keep in mind, that shunning is a common experience.
There is nothing particularly vile about you to have those whom you thought were close friends all of a sudden shun you.
Its just typical modus operendi for SGM.
January 26th, 2009 at 10:11 am
Yes, DB, the vile part was my children constantly asking if their kids could come over and play and my tears behind closed doors after having to tell them no.
I still forgive them, though, because as Jesus Himself said, “They know not what they do!”
And I have to say, God totally came through for us with new friends and a new church family. When we first left SGM, I had a newborn baby and realized coming home from the hospital that no one would be making me meals for a week because we’d left the church. To my surprise, my neighbor two doors down who has never done anything like this appeared at my door with a complete meal the next day. That is only God’s mercy at work!
January 28th, 2009 at 10:44 am
Our family left SGCC about two years ago for a couple of reasons. The first has to do with our oldest child. All her preteen and teen years she felt ostracized. I don’t blame anyone. When we left we only told everyone that she connected with a youth group in another church. Almost every time we shared this we met people who could relate. Litterly dozens and dozens of families who could relate. This apparantly is widespread within the church. I hope this issue will be resolved as some of the other issues are being addressed.
The second reason relates to some very harsh counsel that I received. I do believe the pastor was blind to how destructive his counsel was. Many years ago I approached a pastor about a certain situation because I was confused about lack of “follow through” on his part. His response was “You have an idol”. I was taken aback because my ONLY experience with him was being hurt because he didn’t keep his word. However I completely trusted him and the other pastors. I got down on my hands and knees before God and saught my heart. After repeatedly seeking God to reveal to me my sin I came to realize that this pastor misunderstood my heart. He asked me to lay this idol down once and for all and seek God. For a year I foirgave his offenses towards me and sought God. I had no preconceived time line in mind. However after a year I thought maybe I was “good enough” to be used in this particular venue. When I approached hin about being ulsed in this particular venue he looked me square in the eye and said “I was thinging yearS”. I felt the floor give way beneath me. I was crushed. Where was the grace? Why wasn’t I shown this grace they most recently showed the pastors of SGCC for much more egregious sins? I even wrote one of the pastors before leaving. I told him I felt a cloud was over my head and I had a sign on my chest that said “UNFIT and UNWORTHY!”. I had NO response to this cry of my heart! I plead with the pastors please do more than say you are sorry, Please change your destructive counseling patterns towards your flock!
January 28th, 2009 at 12:09 pm
hurtsheep,
I pray that God will gather you in His arms and bind up your wounds.
See Ezekiel 34:11-16, especially verse 15 and the first part of 16:
“I myself will be the shepherd of my sheep, and I myself will make them lie down,” declares the Lord GOD. “I will seek the lost, and I will bring back the strayed, and I will bind up the injured, and I will strengthen the weak…”
January 30th, 2009 at 6:39 pm
Hurtsheep,
Welcome to the refuge. I don’t know how I missed your comment, but while looking for an old post, I found it!
I’m sorry for your pain. I do not understand how a pastor could be unresponsive when one of his flock exhibits such pain. I hope that you have overcome those horrible lies from our enemy (satan). The Truth is that, through the blood of Jesus, you are dearly loved and cherished and fit for use in His Kingdom! GRACE to you.
January 30th, 2009 at 7:39 pm
O Hurtsheep, I thought I was the only one wearing the “UNFIT and UNWORTHY” sign on me with a child who never seemed to fit in, for whom the laughing crowds at the youth meetings only seemed to highlight our otherness.
As my Lutheran pastor used to tell the children at the communion rail,
“Jesus loves you, just the way you are!”
January 30th, 2009 at 8:09 pm
Welcome, Hurtsheep! {{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{ }}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}} <—-hugs
Nope, Acme, you and Hurtsheep aren’t the only ones. :/
January 30th, 2009 at 10:46 pm
INC, Gracie, acme, and Ellie,
THANKYOU for your kind words and support!
January 31st, 2009 at 8:01 am
Hi Hurtsheep!
Welcome to The Refuge! Like Gracie, I somehow I missed your comment. Hopefully you will find comfort here.
January 31st, 2009 at 12:19 pm
Dear Hurtsheep,
Along with the others here on the Refuge,I hear the cry of your heart. The destructive counsel you received embodied in cruel, law-motivated words. When you wrote the pastor before leaving and described yourself with a big sign reading “unfit and unworthy”—and there was no response–just silence on the other end—this is also a wounding that we and many others have experienced. The discarding of people by not even acknowledging the wounded cry of their questions and hearts.
And yet—the Father has heard your cry; and I hear streams of reatoration in your voice. And I pray He will continuously sing over you and your family with songs of deliverance (deliverance is defined as ‘victories’).
January 31st, 2009 at 12:30 pm
You are more than welcome around here, Hurtsheep. I pray that God will use our words here to help heal you! Feel free to just join in, sometimes we even get silly!
January 31st, 2009 at 12:33 pm
And Waters, what a sweet response to Hurtsheep!
(I don’t know if this is your first post here or not, but if it is – Welcome! If it isn’t, then I am sorry I missed when you posted and I am glad you are here!)
January 31st, 2009 at 12:52 pm
Thankyou,Ellie. No, not my first post…but as the Lord leads……
January 31st, 2009 at 1:36 pm
Hurtsheep,
Hurting with you…the leaders who treated you so badly were not your true pastors because, in the end, they did not love you or treat you tenderly like a shepherd does. Jesus, your true Shepherd, is going to lead you gently and lovingly. When you experience this Pastor of our hearts, you will never feel unworthy again. You are so welcome here!
January 31st, 2009 at 1:45 pm
Hurtsheep, I am so glad when you sought the Lord He revealed HImself to you, and you feel now free to go worship Him, and not feel condemned and unworthy anymore.
Sometimes we need to move on past the Cross to begin the journey of faith, you know?
Keep pressing on, following Jesus!
January 31st, 2009 at 3:29 pm
Hurtsheep,
I had the thought the other night that even as other Christians were the ones to hurt you and many others here push us down, the Lord uses other Christians to remind us of His love and give us a hand up and carry us when we are broken.
May the Lord comfort you with His love and bring other believers into your life to assure you that He cares for you.
January 31st, 2009 at 6:54 pm
Carole,
Hi! and thank you for the welcome!
Waters, and Julie,
God is restoring my joy with “songs of deliverence”. I’m singing with an awesome team of worshipers. One of our current favorite song is Freedom. How applicable is that?! I’m also free to worship because I don’t have anger in my heart anymore. I dearly love the people at SGCC including the pastors! Thank you God for your gentle loving work in me! I’m excited knowing God has used all the negative experiences in my life for a purpose. While I pray for others to have their eyes opened I pray that God continue to open MY eyes to blind spots.
January 31st, 2009 at 7:05 pm
Ellie,
Thank you for the encouragement!
Canary,
One of the things I’ve learned through the 8 years of emotional turmoil at SGCC was to trust GOD alone. Even my wonderful, Godly husband is not always correct in matters of the heart. However he is usually more spiritually discerning than me.
I know in my mind that God will never reject me but I’m still learning to except that in my HEART. Thank you for your support!
January 31st, 2009 at 7:18 pm
INC,
He HAS brought many christians to encourage me and assure me of His love and acceptance. Thank you so much for that prayer!
January 31st, 2009 at 8:34 pm
Hurtsheep,
I’m so glad to hear that! I thank God for His care!
January 31st, 2009 at 9:00 pm
Hurtsheep , When I read the bible on my own I am aware of many warnings and teachings. The primary message I receive from God though is always……..I love you. I want to know you. I want you to trust me. I want you to follow me. It will be ok. Then I see the warnings and teachings are for my own good. Many teachers of the word are so busy correcting and make the mistake of thinking they see it when they don’t. I’m sorry you felt ignored, misunderstood and rejected. I know how hard it is to leave a church. You are definitely out of your comfort zone and its not always what you really want to do. I hope you are healing and able to praise the One who is Holy : the One who is Worthy of ALL Praise.
February 1st, 2009 at 2:48 pm
Lion Heart, yes, going to another church after 15 years was one of the MOST difficult things I have done in my entire life. My first born was only a baby when we first attended. I felt like I was in no man’s land. No other church would feel “right” at first. While everyone was very warm and accepting they still weren’t family. Praise God they are now! It took over a year for my heart to stop aching. While I still dearly love the people at SGCC I feel very much part of the ministry and family at my new church. About 8 months after leaving SGCC my husband and I were asked to lead worship at a life group leadership meeting. I was blown away because I didn’t even know how they new we sang together. I had not pursued this venue in our new church. God had His fingerprints all over this! Not only did God bless us in this way but when they were laying hands on the Life Group leaders the head of the life groups wanted to pray for us. As he prayed he said “I don’t know why you left your previous church, whether it was negative or not but it is perfectly clear that God has called you hear!” At this point I started bawling like a baby! I needed to know that I was still under God’s care and that I hadn’t played a part in tearing my family away from God’s plan for us. Even as I type this I have tears of gratitude for His unfailing love!!!! Thank you God for your love and patience!! Yes, Lion Heart am not only healing but growing more Christlike with His help. Thank you for your support!
February 3rd, 2009 at 5:13 pm
Hurtsheep,
It brings my heart joy (and I needed it today!) to read that you see God’s fingerprints all over the events in your life, even the difficult ones. THAT is redemption! Isn’t He just awesome?? I love Him!
So glad to hear you are not only healing but becoming more like Christ – which is what we all long for.
February 3rd, 2009 at 6:29 pm
Juli,
Glad to bring your heart joy! Yes, He is awesome!! I think I need to change my screen name to BELOVED sheep.
February 3rd, 2009 at 6:58 pm
Hurtsheep,
I think, my dear saint, that you should become Beloved Sheep. That is the Lord’s heart for you!
February 3rd, 2009 at 8:40 pm
Wow, Beloved Sheep!!! That is so cool how they ask you guys to to lead worship when they didn’t even know you two sang together! So glad you found a place where it feels like a family, where you belong.
February 4th, 2009 at 6:14 pm
Canary,
Thank you!
Ellie,
When the head of the life groups called us he mentioned that he heard that we sang together. I just don’t know where he heard that. This was someone my husband and I didn’t know. When God has a plan He makes a way to get the necessary word out. I’ve learned over the years to trust God for certain things to happen and not take matters into my on hands. When I do act without trusting God it is disasterous. Most
importantly I want His blessing on everything that I do! I still struggle with not feeling worthy and I’m not. However Through Jesus Christ I am loved and accepted and made righteous. His word is a comfort to me. It does help a lot to be in a church that is a “safe place” just like our pastor said it should be. I still am grateful for the teachings of the cross but how wonderful to also experience the joy that comes through His Holy Spirit!
February 4th, 2009 at 6:33 pm
Hi Beloved Sheep! ; )
February 4th, 2009 at 6:51 pm
Hi Freedom Fighter! We sure enjoyed seeing you Saturday : )
February 4th, 2009 at 7:17 pm
Hi Beloved!
I like your new name OH! so much better than your last one!
February 4th, 2009 at 7:45 pm
Hi Carole, me too!
March 10th, 2009 at 1:45 pm
Hello Saints!
I just read “About PK”, which I failed to see available ’til today. Duh…it use to be “About Jim”, so I didn’t realize it had been changed. I would encourage everyone – this is a must read, if you have not already done so. Any damage I have done, in my own confusion over what wasn’t clear, will be cleared up upon seeing the balanced agenda on PK’s heart.
The stories told about the misuses of authortiy in SGM have been vital to our reaching the point of reform, or even being able to hope for it. Those of us no longer at SGM can speak of how the Lord has changed us, and moved us forward in our walk with Him. Those who still remain at SGM can have a discussion about the effects of PK’s 1,2,and 3 (see, now you are curious, and have to go read about him!), and how it must change for God’s glory. Those still unsure about what they are seeing will gain clarity, I hope.
For those special ones who have been forced out of SGM, either through shunning or disagreeing with the pastors, you have not been lost. God’s tender eye is upon you. I hope you will feel free to post here, and on “My Story”, where Jim promised to give the boot to anyone who criticizes you. These two places are for you, the ones who could no longer keep up, the ones who feel left by the wayside, lonely and afraid.
There are also some of you who have moved on who will be invaluable in helping those still sitting on the road, wondering, “What now? Where is God?” Please, please post your experience so that those who feel hopeless and alone can gain courage and insight. Remember what it was like to feel “dismembered”? Let’s help encourage those who are there, now. They need to see that they are not alone, that Jesus is with them, even if they have left SGM.
Walking in Freedom, if you are reading this, I hope you will feel comfortable posting again, especially after reading about PK. I hope my own questioning was not responsible for your leaving. Those who need a refuge can still find it here. You are welcome on this blog!
G.D., if you are reading: I feel confident that your experience will help those who have suffered, and lend insight to the discussion with any who remain at SGM. Be free, brother. Your discernment will guide you. Besides, my kitty needs lots of reminding about why he is in the cage!!!
Looking forward to hearing from folks here and at My Story. I will be reading along on the main blog, as well, knowing that very important discussions will be going on, there. PK’s passion for reform matches, maybe surpasses Jim’s, from what I have learned about him. I think it’s going to be good! Canary
P.S. I realize this is not MY blog. I’m just parking over in this corner, ready to help support those who need it. Got your back, PK!
March 10th, 2009 at 4:41 pm
Canary – I will try to read along and respond as I can…I am always praying! I am so encouraged by the work the Lord is doing behind the scenes, not only here but in SGM churches nationwide. He is at work, make no mistake!
People are finding freedom, relief, peace, joy..and at the same time we can encounter such confusion, fear, paranoia (well, I was paranoid for a whole month last year anyway!) and they can feel lonely, depressed, disconnected…so many possibilities.
Many have said before, and I echo it here – were it not for the blogs to simply let these people know they are NOT alone – it would take much longer to process all that is happening to them..I know the blogs are a huge part of the reason I have worked through this relatively fast (compared to others who didn’t have access to blogs, prayers of others, information, etc)
So, for those reading with questions – you can always email people privately..take that first step - it is not a sin to seek the truth!! It is not a sin to share your story! In the end, you still decide, nobody will decide for you. PK, Carole, Jim are all more than willing to help answer any questions you have if you don’t want to ask them publicly, and they keep things in confidence, AND this thread here is a NO ATTACK zone..so feel free to post and hang out in this corner of the blog if you want to simply discuss things with people and not fear drive-by comments that may hurt or distract..
March 10th, 2009 at 7:20 pm
Hey Juli!
I’m glad you will pop in and out. I haven’t had a chance to read the new discussion on Polity. Going to try to, tonight.
I found that one of the things I went through after the initial shock of betrayal wore off was depression. The Lord carried me with strength through that. Then I had to understand what my own responsibility was in the whole experience. I trusted men before God.
My whole walk for the past 13 years since leaving SGM has been seeking and finding the Lord. Learning to abide in Christ is so important, as the bible instructs. There was so much taught at my old church that centered around a few particular verses, leaving out others that would have given balance. For years, I could not read Paul’s letters because he was presented so sternly to us. Now, after learning more about him, and seeing scripture through the mind of Christ, I see that he was passionate for the gospel. He was so passionate that he said some pretty harsh things toward those who would attempt to preach a false gospel, namely the leaven of the Pharisees (1 Co. 5:6-8).
I found this verse, and wondered when THAT got placed in my bible. How did I miss it? I use the Amplified version. It says in Gal. 5:9:
“A little leaven (a slight inclination to error, or a few false teachers) leavens the whole lump [it perverts the whole conception of faith or misleads the whole church].”
I’m still studying about what the leaven is. I want to be able to identify it in my own life.
March 11th, 2009 at 12:44 am
hey remember about what we talked about before, about what SALT does to leaven! that was cool..
WE ARE THE SALT OF THE EARTH
KILL THE LEAVEN!!
March 11th, 2009 at 12:27 pm
Hee-hee, We should make a flag or something “Down with Leaven of the Pharisees!”
I have found two verses where Jesus describes the Kingdom of heaven like this: a woman takes 3 portions of flour, puts leaven in it and hides it away. Now, that left me scratching my whittle head. I asked my husband, “So there is good leaven and there is bad leaven?” His answer: the woman puts the dough away so that it will rise in private or in secret, where no one watches it grow. The leaven can be compared to the wheat and the tares. They both LOOK the same as they begin to grow, but are impossible to tell apart til they mature. That is why the Lord says to let them grow together. He doesn’t want the wheat accidentally torn up as they tear up the tares (say that five times fast).
He said, it is like having a tree grow, but not being able to tell if the fruit of it is good or bad, until the fruit appears (hence, the leaven growing in secret, letting the dough rise unharmed). Two trees may look the same, until the fruit begins to show. Wheat and tare look the same until they mature. Leaven in dough can look the same until it permeates the dough. The Pharisees were filled with bad leaven (corruption, selfish ambition, etc.). Jesus has the good leaven, which is compared to the Kingdom of heaven. So, there’s good leaven in heaven! (Oy, bad joke).
Hope I explained that well enough. I’m still learning about this. I even found that Abraham, when the three angels visited, ran to Sarah for food. She made three cakes with cereal and LEAVEN to feed the angels. Hmmmm…yet the Israelites, when leaving Egypt, took bread WITHOUT leaven. I think that symbolizes that they were leaving behind the bondage they were under as slaves. Interesting, isn’t it?
March 11th, 2009 at 12:42 pm
Oh, I forgot. My husband went on to say that the fruit that is good is not knowledge (which puffs up) but the fruits of the spirit spoken of in Phillipians – love, joy, peace, patience, goodness, kindness, gentleness, self-control…this is from memory so I hope I got it right…
March 11th, 2009 at 7:07 pm
Canary, you said: “I’m still studying about what the leaven is. I want to be able to identify it in my own life.”
Leaven (sin) hunting in your own life is the Holy Spirit’s “job” for the Holy Spirit will convict you or your sin…..or so I thought until a few minutes ago……
Wow! I was hunting down the verse to support the idea above without much success. So I googled “Holy Spirit convicts us of sin” and came up with this video. It is only a couple of minutes long.
Wow! This really and truly speaks to SGM’s issue of sin hunting – of “indwelling sin.”
Wow! Please go watch that video and get back her to discuss this revelation with me: The Holy Spirit convicts us of righteousness (not sin).
Stunned.
er, I mean, Remnant.
March 11th, 2009 at 7:10 pm
Canary, I have a post in moderation. Please be sure to check back soon because I posted a link to a short video discussing the Holy Spirit’s role in “sin hunting.”
Can’t wait until you and Juli listen to what is on that video. I need to talk about it…I’ve never looked at the Holy Spirit’s role in this manner before. I “bought” a lie.
March 11th, 2009 at 7:24 pm
After listening to that video clip, give number 48 a whirl….
Boy, does this relate to SGM’s teaching on “indwelling sin” and speak truth to that lie. It’s a great follow-up to the above clip.
March 11th, 2009 at 10:21 pm
Thanks Canary for the encouragement. Everything is good now.
March 11th, 2009 at 10:21 pm
Remnant,
I’ve looked at the video. I’ll have to study on it for a while. Convicted of righteousness…isn’t it amazing when we stumble across scripture that we merely skipped over in the past?
I want to be clear that, when the bible speaks of the leaven, it is not speaking about sin. I do not go sin-digging. Icky. Had enough of that. I don’t have time to explain tonight, but I will show you what I mean tomorrow, in scripture. I don’t claim to be an expert or teacher, but I will share what I’ve found in the bible on this subject. In moving on from our experiences at SGM, it helps to understand what the leaven is, and how it effected our faith. Galations 5:9 is a good place to start. Nightie-night!
March 11th, 2009 at 11:31 pm
Something interesting that I found concerning leaven:
When you dig into Jesus’ parables a little bit, they can make you crazy. Many of the parables can leave you feeling surreal and confused. Sometimes they are like a Buddhist koan: “What is the sound of one hand clapping?” You try to get your mind around them, but they defy defining. With his parables, Jesus challenged conventional thinking and easy answers. He broke his listeners out of their complacency, and created space in their imaginations.
These parables today may seem familiar and comfortable to you. But maybe there is more here than meets the eye. I’m going to try to open up some of the fabric of these stories and images. Let’s see where it takes us.
“The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed that someone took and sowed in his field; it is the smallest of all the seeds, but when it has grown it is the greatest of shrubs and becomes a tree, so that the birds of the air come and make nests in its branches.”
In Jesus’ world, mustard is a weed. An invasive weed. No one would intentionally sow mustard seed in an agricultural plot. And it doesn’t become a tree. Maybe a big bush, but never a tree.
But Jesus’ listeners recognized this language about a great tree that the birds of the air would make their nests in. That tree was an important image for Israel — an image of Israel’s destiny in the messianic age.
Listen to the vision of Daniel:
Upon my bed this is what I saw; there was a tree at the center of the earth, and its height was great. The tree grew great and strong, its top reached to heaven, and it was visible to the ends of the whole earth. Its foliage was beautiful, its fruit abundant, and it provided food for all. The animals of the field found shade under it, the birds of the air nested in its branches, and from it all living beings were fed. (Daniel 4:10-12) Popular thought had adopted this vision as an image of Israel’s future.
Centuries earlier Ezekiel had imagined God’s planting a noble cedar upon a high mountain. “In the shade of its branches birds of every sort will nest.” (Ezekiel 17:22-23) The national identity of Israel includes the dream of being the highest and greatest tree — a mighty cedar which will shelter and shade.
But Jesus says, “The kingdom of heaven is like… …a mustard weed!” So much for your delusions of grandeur. Cedars don’t even grow in Israel. But look again at this modest mustard weed, from a seed so small you can barely see it. The effects are just the same. The birds of the air come and make nests in its branches. You don’t have to become a big cedar; a weedy mustard plant is enough for the Kingdom of God.
“The kingdom of heaven is like yeast that a woman took and mixed in with three measures of flour until all of it was leavened.”
Yeast is always a negative symbol in the scriptures. “Beware of the yeast of the Pharisees and Sadducees,” Jesus says. Yeast is a metaphor for corruption. A tiny measure of yeast will affect a volume of flour fifty to one-hundred times it’s measure, causing it to expand to two or three times its size. Yeast is a powerful image for the corrupting potential of even the smallest sin.
But this is a bad translation. It’s not yeast. It’s worse than yeast. It’s leaven. The better translation is, “The kingdom of heaven is like leaven…” Leaven is a chuck of bread that has been stored in a dark place until it molds. It is rotten. A little leaven spoils the whole batch. Every Jewish household must be purged of leaven for the Passover, and no leaven is allowed in the holy environs of the Temple.
And speaking of the Temple, what is this woman doing? Three measures of flour is an ephah of flower — fifty or sixty pounds of flour. That’s the recipe for Temple Bread. This woman in her little kitchen with her little clay oven is using the Temple Bread formula. Women can’t do that! And she’s hiding nasty leaven in it. Leviticus says that God hates the smell of leaven. It is always Biblical symbol of evil. “The kingdom of heaven is like leaven that a woman took and mixed in with fifty pounds of flour until all of it was leavened.” How bizarre. Surreal.
“Again, the kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field, which someone found and hid; then in his joy he goes and sells all that he has and buys the field.”
The buyer is probably a laborer, a peasant. He would have had to sell everything in order to buy the field. In a little village like those where Jesus taught, that selling and buying would have been very public. It would have prompted much gossip and speculation. This peasant is willing to part with the very substance and security of his life to buy a field.
But, we think we know why. He’s found the treasure, right? But what Jesus’ listeners knew that we don’t necessarily know, is that if this peasant began to spend the treasure, and it was discovered that he knew the treasure was there but didn’t tell the former owner, that would be tantamount to fraud. The former owner would sue and would likely reclaim the field and its treasure.
So here is the peasant. He owns a great treasure hidden in his field, but he can’t take possession of it for himself. The kingdom of God is like a man with a possessionless treasure.
The kingdom of God is like a mustard weed? …or a truckload of nasty bread? …or a treasure you own but cannot possess? What is this stuff about?
Your guess is as good as mine. But you can bet Jesus was shaking up the common notions of his time. These are naughty stories. Like a comic satirist, Jesus made fun of the pretensions of nationalism and religion and purity and wealth and power.
The preacher/teacher doing stand-up.
Nation, you are like a mustard weed. Let the birds be glad.
An unclean woman bakes Temple Bread in her home oven. Let the multitudes eat.
There’s infinite treasure worth risking your substance and security for, but you can’t posses it. Let everyone be joyful.
The peasants loved this stuff. Proud religious folks like me hated it.
http://www.stpaulsfay.org/id326.html
March 12th, 2009 at 7:48 am
Atonement = the effect of Jesus’ sufferings and death in redeeming mankind and bringing about the reconciliation of God to man.
Because of the atonement, you are totally forgiven.
Because of the atonement, all your sins are covered by the blood of Jesus.
Because of the atonement, you no longer OWE anything for your sins because Jesus has paid it all.
Because of the atonement, all you have to do is receive the finished work of Christ.
Because of the atonement, you no longer have to prove anything to anybody. Jesus proved it all by dieing on the Cross for YOU. Yes, He did this just for YOU.
Because of the atonement, because of Jesus death on the Cross, you are a new creature. The old has gone and the new has come.
Because of the Atonement, all of your shame and guilt has been dealt with. You have no more shame, no more guilt because Jesus died on the Cross for you.
Remember that when we try to pay more for our sins by working harder and not receiving our salvation, the Scriptures say that it is as if we are saying that Jesus’ death on the Cross is not enough and that we have to do more. No it is finished and He has done it all. The best gift that you can give to Jesus (not that you have to give Him a gift because you are a gift to Him just the way you are) would be to receive from Him today. Receive His love. Receive today because Jesus Christ paid a huge price to give you the atonement. You were washed clean of all your sins from the moment that you confessed that you were a sinner in need of a Savior and accepted Jesus as your Savior and as your Lord. You are clothed in the righteousness of Christ and this is what Father God sees when He looks upon you. He sees the righteousness of Christ over you. What wonderful news! This is why we can walk free today. This is why we can live the abundant life that Christ promised – Because of Christ and the FINISHED work on the Cross!!
Let God work this Truth into your heart today. All your sins have been washed clean by the blood of Jesus Christ. They are no longer. What GOOD NEWS! Receive this today. Stand firm in the Truth and walk in the power of the Resurrection! He is sitting at the right hand of the Father making intercession for us this very minute. What Good News!
March 12th, 2009 at 7:55 am
March 12th, 2009 at 9:11 am
Elle – thank you for those lessons on the parables. As a Jew, I’ve heard a different perspective on the parables than what is normally taught at churches. Your post is wonderful and certainly eye-opening. It is so important to remember the context, the audience, the perspective of the first-century Israel when trying to interject meaning into the parables. Thank you!
About the leaven and Passover: what you say is spot on. The Feasts of Israel are a fore-shadow of the first and second advents of Messiah. Without going into detail, I’m sure we all recognize that Messiah was crucified on the day the Passover Lamb was sacrificed at the Temple (1 Cor 5:7), arose on the day First Fruits and is the First Fruit of the Resurrection (1 Cor 15:20), and that the Church was established on the Day of Pentecost (aka The Feast of Weeks) (Acts 2:1) when the Holy Spirit was given unto us.
What is missing in this line-up of 4 Spring Feasts is the 7-day Feast of Unleavened Bread. The Feast of Unleavened Bread occurs the day after Passover and symbolizes the Sinlessness of Jesus’ blood offering. Now that that Passover sacrifice is accomplished (the Lamb is slain), we celebrate a 7-day Feast dedicated to the absence of Leaven – the absence of sin. The Blood of the Lamb has been applied not to doorposts as in Exodus, but instead, the Blood of the Lamb is applied to each Believer, freeing us from the Wrath of God (Heb 9:11-10:18).
Walking in Freedom – yup and amen!
The Good News Message is that Atonement has been provided for us: Leaven has been removed by the Blood of the Lamb. The Wrath of God is appeased. We are no longer objects of Wrath, but God’s precious children (Romans 5:9).
We no longer need fear God’s wrath, anger, disapproval. We are loved, accepted, forgiven, paid for.
March 12th, 2009 at 11:23 am
Canary..I recently looked into what that verse mean about knowledge puffing up – it was always taught in the context of pridefulness..actually, the word “puffed up” in Greek doesn’t even come CLOSE to meaning that, even on a good stretch out of context..it actually means burdened…knowledge burdens us, which is what Solomon said in Ecclesiastes…BIG difference..
but it would stand to reason why SGM would continue to teach this incorrectly – searching for truth would be then construed as seeking knowledge, and since seeking or obtaining knowledge “puffs one up” and puffing up has been defined (conveniently) as pride, and we know pride is sin….sooo..seeking truth is sinful. That is the rational end to that type of teaching. And any teaching that says individual thought or pursuit of knowledge and truth is sinful is, uh, controlling and tyrannical…that says a lot about SGM right there.
March 12th, 2009 at 11:32 am
Remnant, I have not watched the video as of yet..but yes, there is a big difference between conviction of sin and conviction of righteousness…
this is what I personally feel on the subject from my own study, just food for thought: one of the reasons Jesus died on the Cross was to remove awarness and consciousness of sin, right? We read this over and over (actually this aspect of the atonement is marginalized and in my opinion it is the BEST result of the atonement and resurrection) so if He died to do this, then why would we still be “convicted” of sin? It certainly seems to contradict the whole clear conscience teachings over and over in Scripture.
However, we do have an awareness of sin – but I think that doesn’t come post-regeneration or post-salvation or whatever you want to call it – each person has this ability from birth – the awareness of sin – read Romans 1…man exchanges truth for a lie, bit by bit…but we all begin with a knowledge of God and who He is, the law is written on our hearts, this is the New Covenant..so why all the talk about the HOly Spirit convicting of sin when we had that ability BEFORE being indwelt…doesn’t it stand to reason that logically, the role of the Holy Spirit would be, post-salvation, to convict of RIGHTEOUSNESS as you indicated?
Just some thoughts..I will check out the video..of course many will fear a license for sin and abuse of grace…but I think if you examine Scripture and play out these teachings to their logical ends…you will find that increasing holiness, freedom, and clean conscience would result as our faith is ever increasing…it’s amazing!
teachings on indwelling sin and total depravity have always been about control, make no mistake…when these doctrines of death are lifted and man is now free from the guilt and condemantion ha can experience grace as God intended…and we can experience abundant life, as God intended for us to.
March 12th, 2009 at 11:37 am
Remnant, I just read all of your posts above..so as a Jew, could I ask – what do you think the purpose of the old testament sacrifices were? What effect were they to produce in the people, and also in the eyes of God?
I know my own perspective on this and they are not what I was raised being taught, and asking this one question radically changed how I viewed things in terms of Jesus’ sacrifice..but I’d be really interested in hearing how this was actually taught to you as a Jew, and what your understanding of it is now – thanks in advance! I’m wondering if my understand is now more in line with the Jewish thinking actually…or not..
March 12th, 2009 at 12:22 pm
I love all this discussion. It is very uplifting!
I have to say again that leaven did not represent sin, as much as bondage to salvery. (Ex. 13:3,7). The Feast of the Unleavened Bread (Ex.12:17) was practiced to remind the Jewish people how they left Egypt in a hurry. Their bread was unleaven because their leaven bowels were already on ther backs (verse 39). The Lord said that for seven days they must eat no leaven to remember the bondage they were brought out of. This was done once a year after the Exodus.
Leaven is symbolic of corruption (Ex.12:15) when it has to deal with what Jesus described as the leaven of the Pharisees. “You shall not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leaven” (Ex.34:25, Luke 12:1).
Leaven was not despised by God when offered as a sacrifice of Thanksgiving with the Sacrifice of Peace Offerings (Lev. 7:13).
The lady who put aside three portions of flour: this first happened when Abraham was visited by the three angels (Gen.18:6). Sarah made three cakes of cereal (I’ve just found that there is no mention of leaven – the three portions is what is important) to feed them – this is like a thanksgiving offering because, like everything he did, Abraham fed the angels by faith. Jesus again speaks of a woman putting away three portions of flour with leaven (Luke 13:20-21) as being like the Kingdom of God. He speaks at least twice about the leaven being like the Kingdom of heaven (Matt. 13:33).
What we see here is that there is good leaven, leaven that is pleasing to God, that is compared to the Kingdom of heaven, that was offered in a Sacrifice of Thanksgiving and Peace.
There is also what Jesus warned as the leaven of the Pharisees (Matt. 8:15, Luke 12:1). Their leaven represented hypocrisy and corruption, which produces unrest and violent agitation (Amplified).
My favorite verse to explain why the leaven of the Pharisees is so harmful: “A little leaven (a slight inclination to error or a few false teachers) leavens the whole lump (it perverts the whole conception of faith or misleads the whole church)” (Gal. 5:9, Amplified).
Now, having shown the verses to go read, I believe it is important to understand the leaven of heaven (
) and the leaven of the Pharisees in order to move on from our experiences at a controlling church. That is what I’m still studying on. What we have described as “legalism” is not a word used in the bible (at least I haven’t found it, yet…anyone else find it?). Jesus warned of the leaven of the Phar. but also spoke of leaven as the Kingdom of God (lady with three portions of flour – she was not disobeying God – leaven was okay to use, except during the sevens days of the Feast of the Unleaven Bread that ocurred once a year). This is what I’ve learned:
The leaven (good and bad) is like the wheat and tares (Matt. !3: 24-30).
Leaven can look the same – it is not that using it is bad. It is how and when it is used that the Lord rebukes. Error, false teaching, corruption, hypocrisy – this is what Pharisee’s leaven looks like.
Leaven is like a seed – you will not always know which kind of fruit the trees will offer until they have matured with fruit. Until then, they can look the same (leaven of Phar. and leaven of the Kingdom, wheat and tares).
We want leaven in our lives that grows, leading to the Kingdom of heaven in our lives.
We experienced leaven of the Pharisees in SGM, from some of the teaching and from our own lack of understanding. It was in my one church when PDI took over. We already had leaven, for we were not searching as much for the Kingdom of heaven to grow in our midst as much as building a New Testament church. The leaven grew over the years, until it became what it is today – an organization that misrepresents its authority, giving more power to men than they should have. We have men who are puffed up with knowledge (like the Pharisees were), and believe their doctrines are RIGHT. When it comes down to it, they will choose their doctrine over love, which is a bad fruit (I saw relationships blow apart over doctrine that men had created through the use of one or two verses).
We, during our little tussle on this blog, chose love over being right. We desired unity over our own opinions. We got through a conflict, coming out still loving one another. Sure, it was a little messy. SGM did not like messes. So, it was my way or the highway. Do what we say or go some where else. That is baaaaad leaven. It does not bear good fruit. It lacks love. It was not the Kingdom of heaven in our midst. Even a little error grew until it perverted our conception of faith, and has even misguided the whole organization. That is what we saw, folks. That is what hurt us so much.
So, the kind of leaven I want in my life is the sort that Jesus spoke of. I want the Kingdom of heaven to grow within me. I want to be a tree that bears good fruit (love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, etc.). I do not want to eat of the leaven that will bear hypocrisy, error, agitation, etc.
Again, I am not a teacher (except for my home schoolers). Read the verses I noted and tell me if I’ve missed something important. I have another site I know of which is also speaking on this subject. Think I’ll fly over there for a quick browse.
However, what I’m realizing is that, when I was in SGM, I wasn’t a leaglist as much as a Pharisee! There was leaven in my life that was fermenting into much confusion about what faith really is. When I left, when I studied Hebrews, then I understood that it is faith that pleases God. Not faith in leaders. Not faith in a church. Not faith in doctrines created by men to control people and own their allegience.
That was the leaven that led to my bondage. Now I am free, and I want the Kingdom of heaven to be in my life by abiding with Jesus, who will ferment that good leaven (while no one can see it grow) into a good, useful lump of dough. Or a great tree that others can find shade beneath. Or a tree whose fruit is healthy and nourishing for others. Or a piece of wheat that will be collected in the end, and be saved.
I love my Bible! I just need to give my bird brain a rest. All this parable stuff has twisted it into a pretzel like shape…Hee-hee.
March 12th, 2009 at 4:06 pm
Juli, I was not taught much about this topic as a child, although I was raised in a Conservative home and we kept most of the laws of Kashrut (keeping Kosher) within the walls of the home. One could eat lobster and shrimp, but only at restaurants and only without the grandparents present! My personal heritage is one of tradition, rather than a heart-faith. I heard the Bible readings during Sabbath services and I, of course, went to Hebrew School three days per week, but we mostly studied history and tradition and learned to read Hebrew (without learning too much vocabulary) – that is, when we didn’t skip school to walk the short distance to the National Zoo on Connecticut Avenue in DC.
I was saved during my college years, in the 1970’s. My studies regarding Biblical things began at that time. When you ask my opinion of Old Testament sacrifices, I presume you mean those of the Mosaic Covenant only. We know that folk offered animal sacrifices prior to the giving of the Mosaic Covenant but I think your interest encompass the Lord’s intended purposes for the commanded offerings He gave to Moses.
I confess that although I did have a few basic ideas behind the reasons for the offerings, I did resort to doing a bit of research. Here’s what I found from my favorite saved Jewish scholar, Arnold G. Fruchtenbaum, Manuscript 180: The Levitical Offerings and the Levitical Sacrifices (Ariel.org).
The basic Meaning for the Offerings is found in the Hebrew word korban, meaning “to draw near” (Lev 1:2). “Therefore, by means of the sacrifice, one could draw near to God. The basic meaning is that of approaching God, drawing near to God by means of sacrifice” (pg 5).
The Frucht (as we fondly refer to him) goes on to state five derived meanings ranging from self-dedication (Burnt Offerings), generosity in giving (Meal Offerings), thanksgiving/praise/fellowship/communion for individual or national deliverance (Peace Offerings), expiation [removal of guilt by payment of penalty] by substitution (Sin Offering) and expiation with restitution made when someone caused injury (Trespass Offering aka “guilt offering).
The Mosaic sacrifices were not meant to be complete: they were limited in that they needed to be continually offered and they were also limited in purpose to the covenanted people only (Jewish people). Messiah’s one sacrifice, however, was sufficient for all (Rom 6:10; Heb 7:27; Heb 9:12; Heb 10:10; 1 Peter 3:18).
Even before the Mosaic Law, it is interesting to note that shedding of blood was necessary for redemption – from the original sin in the Garden of Eden when the Lord clothed Adam and Eve in animal skins. Fruchtenbaum states “As biblical history develops in the Book of Genesis, we find that all the ones with whom God was pleased came to Him by means of blood. Noah immediately offered up blood sacrifices when he left the ark. He was followed by other great men in Jewish history: Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, all of whom were careful to approach God by means of blood. When Moses received the Law at Mount Sinai, the redemptive element of blood ran throughout the entire Law with its 613 commandments (Manuscript 014: Why Did Messiah Have to Die? pg 4). This was a continual life and death cycle (pg 7).
When I first became a Believer in Messiah, one of the first verses I learned in regards to Messiah’s death was Leviticus 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you on the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood by reason of the life that makes atonement.
There is much more that can be discussed on the subject of sacrifices including the role of the Priesthood and Jesus’ High Priesthood. I’m not sure that what I wrote here was the direction you have been thinking. Have I answered your questions??
March 12th, 2009 at 4:26 pm
CORRECTION: In paragraph 7, I meant to say Mark 8:15, not Matt. 8:15.
March 12th, 2009 at 5:15 pm
Gosh – I just realized my last question, which was intended to be a leading question, comes across harshly. It was not my intention. Let me try again:
Juli, I hope my little discussion was along the lines you’re interested in. Was it what you are wanting to discuss, or would you like to tweak my focus?
March 13th, 2009 at 10:51 am
Remnant,
I’m not Juli (obviously) but your last question doesn’t sound harsh to me – it sounds like what you intended – a leading question.
March 13th, 2009 at 11:43 am
I want to clarify something. When I said the leaven is more like bondage to slavery than sin, I used the Exodus scriptures. However, bondage to the old law does lead to sin, like hypocrisy, corruption, strife, envy…all the things we see in the NT Pharisees . Many Christians live parts of their spiritual lives under the Old Law, which cannot free us or save us (when we were taught to sin dig, we were being taught the bad leaven). That is why it is so important to identify the bad leaven in what we have learned through SGM. Under the New Covenant, we are set free! The leaven of heaven can grow deep within us, and we see the Kingdom of Heaven in our midst.
Remnant,
Exodus 34:25 - “You shall not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leaven.”
Thank you for your description of the different offerings. I missed reading that yesterday, somehow! When I found the above Ex. verse, I thought this was a forshadowing of Jesus’ sacrifice. I love the verses you included. Jesus did it all with His own sacrifice of blood.
I read that the Peace offering was given with leaven. Do you know anything more about what that offering was for? You know, the Thanksgiving offering of peace (I think is what it was called)? I ask because I want to more deeply understand why the leaven was pleasing to God in this offering, while it was not pleasing to Him during the Feast of the Unleaven bread (because of the Exodus – I get that). Trying to wrap my brain around it all, so my heart will get filled. I love the kind of revelation from scripture that deepens my understanding of the Lord and His plans. Thanks!
March 13th, 2009 at 6:46 pm
Remnant, thank you so much for all the information – I am going to read some of The Frucht’s work
This is where I am coming from and see if I can lay this out enough for others to follow. It’s difficult to explain how all this is working in my mind, but I will attempt to do my best:
I have asked myself for years about PUNISHMENT for sins being the means of cleansing the conscience. Punishment=Clean Conscience has been my assumption for years. Until recently, when I rethought it. I rethought it simply because of the logical outworkings and terrible fruit produced by SGM’s constant focus on indwelling sin and the Cross-centered guilt that was heaped upon us for so long.
You mentioned expiation (if I understood correctly) by three different means: payment of penalty, substitution, and restitution.
I’ve been taught Christ’s “sacrifice” met all three of these. But I don’t find much support in the NT for the penalty aspect in particular. Meaning, most scriptures that deal with Christ’s death are speaking to it accomplishing the ability for those with faith to have a clean conscience, and not even implying that punishment was even necessary…that by faith we escape even the NEED for punishment. Those who don’t live by faith will in fact be punished eternally. For their sin, and sin is any action that stems from what? Unbelief. It’s all about faith. Go figure!
So, ultimately, all “sin” translates to unbelief..not so much the actions..naturally many actions stem from unbelief and exchanging the truth of God for a lie (romans 1), for not believing the law that is written on our hearts under the New Covenant. God said that as part of the New Covenant that ALL would know Him and Romans 1 talks further about this knowledge of GOd we have so that we are without excuse. So if we have access to God by faith (like everyone did in the OT) and they drew near by the blood, and we draw near by the blood of Christ now and don’t need to offer actual blood sacrifices..why all the talk of Jesus taking on the punishment for sins?
Remember, God said that sacrifices and offerings he does not want, but a broken and contrite heart he will not despise..so, if we have that broken and contrite heart (which is a change of heart, which is repentance) then why the need for punishment then? We’ve repented of our “sin” of unbelief and are believing God – no punishment should be required, right? So now it seems Jesus’ death was the shedding of blood so that we can draw near, with a clean conscience by faith..not because our sin was “paid for”. We can draw near because our CONSCIENCES have been sprinkled..Hebrews says. That is key.
Does all this make sense? Because honestly, how can one say without thinking it ridiculous that the death of a bull or lamb somehow would “satisfy” the righteous requirements of the law that were broken in and of itself? The act alone I am saying. Wasn’t it really the HEART and FAITH of the person killing the bull that pleased God and satisfied Him? The act of sacrifice was the outward working of the inward faith already present..as James said, faith and action working together…FAITH pleases God, not the sacrifice or action. But if faith is present, action will follow. I think we’ve just focused on actions for too long and neglected the heart. (which in cidentally is what Jesus said about the Pharisees when he said they clean the outside of the cup but the inside is still dirty)
so when we, by faith, draw near to God through Jesus, we are acting in the same way the people of faith in the OT did, in a way that pleased God. And it seems to me it had little or nothing to do with punishment for sins – it had EVERYTHING to do with the heart and repentance and a faith that resulted in action. For where there is no offense, there is no need for punishment.
To put it in practical terms – as a mother, when my son does something “wrong” I discipline him or punish him for what ultimate purpose? To teach him a lesson – to change his attitude, his heart, to make him into something he isn’t. And I know he is not there because of his actions. His actions revealed his heart. I correct the action to get at the heart. God does the same with us. Now, if my son had realized his error and was truly repentant at something he did, why would I punish him? What need would there be for that? It doesn’t make sense to me. So why would God punish Jesus for our actions if we have repented? What is the point? This is where I get confused.
I’m throwing this out knowing it is likely to be controversial – so bear with me. I am truly wanting feedback on this – because I think it is important for us to know – esp ecially since in SGM we have endured so much Cross-centered guilt by focusing on indwelling sin and being taught to always be aware of our wicked hearts, etc. This guilt is the very reason Jesus died – so it makes no sense to continue feeling guilty for our sin when He died to take the guilt away! It is a doctrine of death, it does not lead to life. And yet this is the doctrine SGM teaches constantly.
Do you guys see the disconnect here?
March 15th, 2009 at 1:22 pm
Juli,
I just read your March 12th post. I missed it before. What great insight, that the words “puffed up” mean to be burdened. That is why I like my Amplified. The Greek is so hard to translate into its proper meaning, and the Amplified does it for me.
To be burdened is what the Pharisees placed upon the people. They, too, were burdened with the law, though they were also hypocrites. WE were burdened by all the traditions of men, taught as knowledge. Weren’t we attracted to these men because they seemed so knowledgable about scripture? I think I have to say yes for myself. What I realized later was that knowledge wasn’t what my heart desired. I desired to KNOW Jesus.
Thanks, Juli.
Remnant (I love that name!),
Can you explain a little more about what the Feast of Thanksgiving and Peace means? I would love to understand a little better. Thank you.
March 16th, 2009 at 12:32 pm
Hey Juli,
Did you read my above post? Do you happen to have the Greek word used for “puffed up”? Thanks. I’m compiling all these thoughts about the leaven in a file on my computer. I would love to look up the Greek myself, so I can include it in my file.
March 16th, 2009 at 3:15 pm
http://www.greekbiblestudy.org/gnt/main.do
Here’s a cool website, Canary & it’s free!
March 16th, 2009 at 4:06 pm
Sorry it has taken so long to reply. This took a bit of digging, and I didn’t want to post something inaccurate.
Ellie, thanks for the opinion.
Canary commented: I read that the Peace offering was given with leaven. Do you know anything more about what that offering was for? You know, the Thanksgiving offering of peace (I think is what it was called)? I ask because I want to more deeply understand why the leaven was pleasing to God in this offering, while it was not pleasing to Him during the Feast of the Unleaven bread (because of the Exodus – I get that).
My reply: Leviticus chapter 3 speaks about Peace Offerings. I don’t find anything in that text regarding leaven. From Fruchtenbaum (Manuscript 180, page 12): “This was a voluntary thanksgiving offering. It emphasized complete well being and harmony, not merely the absence of war. The uniqueness of this offering is that certain parts were burned on the Altar, but the rest was given back to the petitioner. The one who offered it got most of it back. This was the believer’s way of participating in the blessings of the fellowship of God.” Fruchtenbaum goes on to say, “As far as its typology is concerned, it typifies the value of Messiah’s death in terms of its communion. It typifies the Messiah’s procuring peace with God for the sinner (Rom 5:1). And it typifies the fellowship of believers with God, once again, the concept of communion.”
Meal Offerings are described in Leviticus 2 however, it is interesting to note that leaven is prohibited from these offerings (Lev 2:11). It is even more interesting to note that even though this offering is without blood, it was placed on a bloody altar, and therefore accompanied by blood. Fruchtenbaum (page 11) says of this offering, “As mentioned, this is the only offering which was a bloodless offering. However it was never offered apart from blood, but was normally accompanied by blood (Lev. 23:9-14; Num. 15:1-16; Ezra 7:17). Before the Meal Offering was placed upon the Altar, the Burnt Offering was given first. The Meal Offering was then placed upon the Burnt Offering, so that the Meal Offering always came in contact with blood.”
I cannot find any offerings where leaven is permitted.
March 16th, 2009 at 4:56 pm
Juli, you said: I’ve been taught Christ’s “sacrifice” met all three of these [payment of penalty, substitution, restitution]. But I don’t find much support in the NT for the penalty aspect in particular. Meaning, most scriptures that deal with Christ’s death are speaking to it accomplishing the ability for those with faith to have a clean conscience, and not even implying that punishment was even necessary…that by faith we escape even the NEED for punishment. Those who don’t live by faith will in fact be punished eternally. For their sin, and sin is any action that stems from what? Unbelief. It’s all about faith. Go figure!
My response: I’m not sure I follow all of what you are thinking. I think you are a far deeper thinker than I! But let me try to hear you and reply. Please dialogue with me if my understanding is in error.
Interesting point about not finding much in the NT supporting the penalty aspect of Christ’s sacrifice. I’ve done a bit of digging and have come up with the following (after taking lots of rabbit trails – wish we could be doing this across the table with a cup of tea):
1. Gal 3:13 – “Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us–for it is written, ‘CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE’ ”
Being dealt a curse is being dealt a punishment, is it not? If so, here we see Christ redeeming us from the specific punishment of the curse.
2. From the Old Testament we find Isaiah 53:5-8 – “But He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him, And by His scourging we are healed. All of us like sheep have gone astray, Each of us has turned to his own way; But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all To fall on Him. He was oppressed and He was afflicted, Yet He did not open His mouth; Like a lamb that is led to slaughter, And like a sheep that is silent before its shearers, So He did not open His mouth. By oppression and judgment He was taken away; And as for His generation, who considered That He was cut off out of the land of the living For the transgression of my people, to whom the stroke was due?”
The very life of Messiah bears out the witness to this verse. He was pierced, beaten, scourged. With that, the believer’s penalty for sin is remitted – “The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him.”
Does this count as a New Testament verse because of the literal way in which it is translated by the very life of Messiah?
3. 2 Cor 5:21 – “He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.”
Does this theological truth of imputation apply to penalty? Instead of me bearing the penalty and consequences for my sins, Jesus became sin for me so that I become righteous? In my life, Jesus exchanged my sin for his righteousness.
4. Rom 5:9 – “Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.”
The believer is delivered from God’s general wrath against sin through Jesus.
Again, Juli, I’m not at all sure that these things answer those things that you’ve been dwelling on.
March 16th, 2009 at 5:08 pm
Juli (a previous comment to you is awaiting moderation), you further your thoughts with this: so when we, by faith, draw near to God through Jesus, we are acting in the same way the people of faith in the OT did, in a way that pleased God. And it seems to me it had little or nothing to do with punishment for sins – it had EVERYTHING to do with the heart and repentance and a faith that resulted in action. For where there is no offense, there is no need for punishment.
My reply: I think you are absolutely correct that it is faith that pleases the Lord.
But don’t neglect that it is the content of our faith that is important: I have faith in God. Therefore I have faith that His Word is true. Therefore, I have faith that, if I were living as an Old Testament Saint (true believer), I would need to bring my bulls and goats as sacrifice for my sin. I would follow what the Lord had revealed to that point: the blood of bulls and goats was essential during the time that the Mosaic Law was in effect.
Today, as a New Testament believer, I have faith that the Lord is. I have faith that the Son of God offered Himself willingly, out of love for me, in substitution for me. While I deserve punishment for my sin, Jesus died in my place, giving to me not my just desserts, but His righteousness as my own. I have faith and my faith has content and that content is the TRUE gospel (1 Cor 15:4).
We, as humans, deserve punishment – death – eternal separation from God. But God made provision for that – IF one has the faith to believe it. The object of faith has always been God. The content of that faith has changed from time to time: under the Mosaic Law, the content of redemptive faith lay in the blood of bulls and goats, righteously sacrificed on the Temple altar in Jerusalem. Today, the content of our faith is in the Lord Jesus’ death, burial and resurrection (the TRUE gospel).
March 16th, 2009 at 5:11 pm
With that, I think I addressed points directed my way. Let me know if I missed something.
Oh, and really – if you disagree with me, that’s not going to ruffle my feathers – wait – Canary has the feathers. Er, I promise not to be snarky. Really.
March 16th, 2009 at 6:31 pm
Remnant,
Thank you so much for explaining about the thanksgiving offering. I find it interesting that the petitioner gets his offering returned to him. LIke he gets to share in this sacrifice…
The verse about leaven being offered as part of thanksgiving is Lev. 7:13: “With cakes of leavened bread he shall offer his sacrifice of thanksgiving with the sacrifice of his peace offerings.” In verse 13, part of the offering included unleavened cakes and wafers. So why was leavened bread required, too? That puzzles me.
March 16th, 2009 at 6:33 pm
Thanks for the site, Ellie, you google queen! I’ve added it to my favorites’ list.
March 16th, 2009 at 6:59 pm
I need to clarify – the puffed up in Corinthians DOES mean “haughty” – I’m not sure how I got that mixed up..but now it is bothering me..I will check my study to see where I got verses confused..but I needed to clarify it here so nobody was confused by my error – my apologies.
March 16th, 2009 at 7:18 pm
Remnant, I’d love to have a cup of tea with you and “muse” together..one of my favorites pastimes..
some thoughts – and I’m throwing these out for consideration, I’m not “set in stone” on any of this. Just thinking and writing out loud..which is fun
1) you mentioned the curse. What exactly IS the curse? Well, I’ve understood it to be death. Death is the curse of unbelief..so Christ becoming that curse (dying) released us from it. Where Oh death is your sting? etc..
2) I’m thinking there is some increased significance in the whole life and death pattern and how that plays into the blood sacrifice.
3) obedience and disobedience and how they are defined in Scripture is focusing completely on the ability and willingness of man to HEAR God and listen..not on actions. So sin, or how we understand sin, is ultimately unbelief, lack of faith. ANY action or behavior that stems from unbelief is sin. Some actions (like murder) will ALWAYS stem from unbelief. WHat exactly are we not believing here? WHo God is, who God says WE are, what God can do, etc..wrong beliefs in these areas is the same as unbelief – which lead to actions that are sinful.
I’m still thinking on this..but just offer that for now.
March 16th, 2009 at 8:15 pm
Now I want to slap my forehead and say, “Duh!” because I know that the Feast of Weeks (aka Pentecost) included two leavened loaves.
Here’s the basic “picture” of the Feast of Weeks: Two leavened cakes of completely equal proportions were offered to the Lord together in a wave offering.
Lev 2:12 speaks about this offering. There is a huge difference between this offering and the Meal Offerings: this one with the leaven is not offered on the altar – it is not burnt.
Lev 23:17 also speaks about this offering with further instruction that these loaves are to be waved before the Lord.
I made mention previously that the Spring Feasts of Israel were a foreshadow of the first advent of Messiah:
1. Feast of Passover: The Lamb is slain. Jesus was slain on the cross at the same moment as the Passover Lamb is slain in the Temple.
2. Feast of Unleavened Bread: Coming the day after the Passover, this Feast represents the Sinless Sacrifice (death) of Messiah.
3. Feast of First Fruits: Jesus is the First Fruit of the Resurrection. This day is the exact day Jesus arose from the dead.
4. Feast of Pentecost: This is the exact day that the disciples were gathered in the upper room when the Holy Spirit descended. With the giving of the Holy Spirit, the church was born. This is the day that those two leavened loaves were presented to the Lord as a wave offering. Just as the other three Feasts had very clear Messianic significance, so does this Feast: those two leavened loaves represent two people groups: Jews and Gentiles. Since the loaves are leavened, they do not represent the Sinless Christ. The two people groups, Jews and Gentiles, are now presented to God on EQUAL terms: Gentiles were no longer excluded from the presence of the Lord. The significance of the Feast of Weeks/Pentecost is that the two are now made into One Body by faith.
Want more information? See the Feast of Shavuot (Weeks/Pentecost): http://www.haydid.org/ff.htm
March 16th, 2009 at 8:40 pm
Juli, I have noone right now to sit and muse with me in real life. I miss that!
Your number one:
1) You mentioned the curse. What exactly IS the curse? Well, I’ve understood it to be death. Death is the curse of unbelief..so Christ becoming that curse (dying) released us from it. Where Oh death is your sting? etc..
My reply: *I* think the curse stems from Adam and Eve’s sin. The land was cursed. Adam and Eve were driven from the presence of the Lord.
Rev 22:1-4 (which I won’t type because it will pop up when you place your cursor over the link) states that there will be a time where the curse will be removed from the land (the verse describes the times of the Millennial Kingdom).
I do not think that the curse related only to that of the Mosaic Law: which only Israelites needed to adhere to and then only for a limited period of time (Jews are no longer obligated to obey the Mosaic Law – even unbelievers). Gentiles were never obligated to the Mosaic Law.
As to your number 2:
2) I’m thinking there is some increased significance in the whole life and death pattern and how that plays into the blood sacrifice.
Lev 17:11. Life is precious – what’s the word? Sacred! Life is sacred. God created life. To take a life, even that of an animal, is sorrowful. I agree with you that there is huge significance in the life/death pattern. God had to kill an animal to cover Adam and Eve when they sinned: He had to kill that which he lovingly created. Death is never easy. Our sin costs much – it costs a life. Ultimately, it cost Jesus His life. (Which he lovingly and voluntarily laid down for us because He wanted to!)
July, you said in your point 3:
3) obedience and disobedience and how they are defined in Scripture is focusing completely on the ability and willingness of man to HEAR God and listen..not on actions. So sin, or how we understand sin, is ultimately unbelief, lack of faith. ANY action or behavior that stems from unbelief is sin. Some actions (like murder) will ALWAYS stem from unbelief. WHat exactly are we not believing here? WHo God is, who God says WE are, what God can do, etc..wrong beliefs in these areas is the same as unbelief – which lead to actions that are sinful.
My reply: yes and yes and yes….unbelieving is unfaith. The content of faith in the Old Testament so many many times was this: The evil wicked one needed to believe two things about the Lord: That God existed and that there was ONE God. I wish I could put my finger on it, but there were times that an enemy king came to believe in the True God, but they never committed to Him ALONE – hanging onto the gods of his culture.
The great Jewish declaration from Deut: Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is One.
There is a God.
He stands alone.
If I can declare those things, I can then learn of Him and His ways. But all starts there.
That’s my take, anyway.
March 16th, 2009 at 11:32 pm
Remnant,
Thanks!:)
March 17th, 2009 at 10:11 am
Juli,
Many times also, if the OT offering was two doves (birds), one’s neck was broken, slit, and the blood drained into a basin. The second bird was then dipped in the blood and given back to the petitioner (representing the spilled blood of the Messiah, covering us, thus bringing forgiveness and freedom)
When Hashem ( G-D, the Heavenly Father, King of the Universe) gave the law, HE knew there was NO way man could keep all of it, although this is what HE required, thus necessitating the need for the Messiah. HE also required that the blood sacrifice be a spotless, unblemished animal. Knowing that we, as man, could never keep all of the law, thus not being able to fulfill it for our freedom and salvation, HE told them of, and sent to us, Jesus, the spotless lamb for the perfect blood sacrifice.
Juli, I agree with you, that it is the heart of the matter that HE looks at. I believe that many of them in the OT, did their best to keep the law out of faith and belief in HIS word and promise, that the obedience would reunite them with HIM, as they had a true love and longing for their G-D.
I believe that because of the way He set the law forth, and the requirements of sacrifice HE made, JESUS had to die, and blood be shed for our redemption and freedom. Just as those of the OT believed that their sacrifices reunited them with HIM, JESUS’ death, paid that requirement in full, so that we would not live our lives in vain, trying desperatley to fulfill a law, that only G-D Himself could meet, as HE is the one who instituted it.
For me, what so many believers today forget , or are never told is that (please understand, I pray I am not being heretical here) without the Resurrection, what value did the Cross have. Since, only a spotless, unblemished blood offering could be accepted for atonement, and G-D HIMSELF, being the only one spotless and blameless for atonement to take place, the resurrection for me, proves HE is G-D, the Messiah, and the price paid once and for all.
To me, if I do not walk to the other side of the cross, experiencing the joy and freedom the resurrection brings me, I would be so overwhelmed with uncertainty, guilt and shame, seeing HIM hanging on that cross day in and day out. I would be reminded constantly of my sin that put HIM there, and have NO peace, joy or freedom. I hope you understand, I AM NOT negating the importance, blessing and selfless sacrifice HE made for me, but to not live in the freedom HIS death brought about, to me is telling HIM it was not enough.
Not too long ago, we had a sermon about the resurrection, and the statement was made, “there is no way we can partake of the grace of God provided by the cross, if we do not understand and live in the freedom and joy of the resurrection”!! WOW, that statement just reaffirmed to me (1. That I am not an heretic – whew) 2. That, we ARE to walk in freedom, joy and peace in our relationship with HIM; and not in guilt, shame, and condemnation. 3. That when we are taught the love of the sacrifice along with the blessing it brings, I find myself wanting and desiring more of HIM due to the knowledge of what G-D did for me, (dying & then RISING so I could be free)thus building on a love relationship between the two of us, rather than fearful, condemning interaction between a “lording” finger pointing, rejecting G-D.
I hope I haven’t caused confusion, I, along with you, want others to come to the understanding of that incredible, fulfilling, joyful relationship that HE has provided for us, rather than to live under the painful, shameful, guilt ridden one that others perpetrate on them.
MiMi
March 17th, 2009 at 12:37 pm
Mimi,
Thank you so much for your words above. I know Juli will respond when she can, but I wanted to pop in and say that you are NOT a heretic for saying the cross cannot be where we remain. You are right – Jesus proved He was the Messiah by rising from the dead. I think it is sad that we have to explain ourselves, that we have to say we do no negate what happened on the cross, because that just shows how teachings we sat under did not allow for the empty tomb, the risen Lord, who showed us that He had dealt with our sins. There was intense focus on sins, which led to intense control of our behavior. It did not lead to grace.
I wonder if you can answer a quesiton for me, as it seems from your post that you have a Jewish heritage. I am a bit confused about these verses:
”Jesus again speaks of a woman putting away three portions of flour with leaven (Luke 13:20-21) as being like the Kingdom of God. He speaks at least twice about the leaven being like the Kingdom of heaven (Matt. 13:33).”
Jesus is comparing the Kingdom of God with leaven. My understanding is that the Feast of the Unleaven Bread only lasts seven days. Obviously, leaven (as Remnant said) was not offered in the burnt offering. It seems that it was allowed to be used in the two loaves of bread given in the thanksgiving offering, and by the people when eating during the rest of the year. So, my thinking is that there are two types of leaven – leaven of the Pharisees, and leaven that compares to the Kingdom of God? Do you get this? I think I do, but I’m not sure if I’m right. I’d really appreciate your help. Thanks.
I also have to add that, learning about OT sacrifice, and that it was a forshadowing of Jesus, is so amazing to me. I’ve always thought that it is like a huge puzzle being put together by the Lord, and Jesus added the final pieces. It just underscores that He really is who He says He is!
March 17th, 2009 at 3:13 pm
Hey Juli,
I was very intrigued by your questions about the crucifixion as punishment. I stumbled onto some things. I never realized that some of my current beliefs originated from the understanding or interpretation of different individuals. I just have assumed so many things without researching them for myself. I wonder how much I believe that was taught to me–either through sermons or books–that isn’t exactly something I’d come up with through reading the Bible on my own. Anyway, I’m glad you brought that up. It’s got me thinking. If you have a chance, check this out (it may not help, just give you more questions, but it is interesting):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A.....tion_view)
March 17th, 2009 at 3:14 pm
Canary,
Unleavened bread has a beautiful and special meaning for believers. The Lord Christ Jesus was crucified on the cross at Golgotha on the day of Passover. He was then buried.. However, unlike all other mortals,, the body of Jesus (Yeshua) would not decay in the grave. There would be no decomposition of His body. God the Father would not “allow thine Holy One (His Son Jesus) to see corruption (Psalm 16:10; Acts 2:27). The Feast of Unleavened Bread proclaims that Christ’s physical body would not experience the ravages of death while in the grave; for He was sanctified (set apart) by God the Father.
For the Jew, this feast, Pesach, or Passover, reminds them of the swiftness they had to leave Egypt. They did not have time to add leaven to their bread, thus they had to take it a it was. Oddly enough, the lack of leavening….made it last longer, it did not decay before they were able to eat it. Thus giving them life on the perilous journey. Much like, the fact that JESUS’ body did not decay, thus through is resurrection and renewed life, we have the sustance available to us to make it through this earthly life until we ee HIM face to face.
Even the 10th plague for the Egyptians represents and foreshadows the death and resurrection of our Jesus. By painting the blood of the slaughtered lambs on the door posts (lentels), the Jews were “passed over” by the angel of death. The blood on the posts represented the blood of Jesus covering our hearts when we come to HIM, thus we are too “passed over” for eternal death, due to the shed blood and resurrection of our Savior. So very much of the OT and that covenant foreshadows and fortells the deity, promise and fulfillment of Christ’s coming.
Now to the verses you referenced. Just as so many things in this life, leaven can and does represent more than one thing. Because bread was such a vital “religious” part of the Jews life, I believe HE used it as an example to explain the power of HIS word and the gospel message. Leavened bread is part of the weekly Sabbath ritual for the Jews. It is used as a symbol for the sustance of life that Hashem made available to all through HIS creation of this world. Jesus, knowing that for a Jew not to have leaven, to make the special necessary Sabbath bread, would be a travesty for them, so using it as an example certainly get their attention!
I believe HE was telling them in these two verses that the word of G-D, like leaven, is so powerful, that it takes just a little for the word to spread. That only a few, speaking the truth of the word, can cause many to hear it eventually. WE should look at it in context too. Shortly before, he was speaking of the mustard seed, explaining that from that tiny seed, that is nothing, there appears to be not hope of fruition, but when planted in good soil, it grows a tree with many leaves; reaching out farther and wider than ever imagined when looking at that seed. Just as the gospel of Christ, though maybe spoken to a few, if within those few hearts, is fertile soil for the sowing of HIS word, the truth and gospel will grow and spread through these faithful full: thus the Kingdom of heaven is liken unto leaven, needing little for much to come of it…and remember, once leaven has taken hold, there is no way to remove it from the bread..just as once the Gospel is spoken, it too will grow…..to reach all nations….that HE promised
MiMi
March 17th, 2009 at 3:29 pm
Mimi,
Thank you so much! I was thinking the same from what I was reading, but wanted to be sure. You explain it all so well. Can I ask two more questions?
First, what does “Hashem” mean?
Second, Jesus was called the “bread of life”. Would that represent leaven or unleaven to a Jewish person?
I’m getting a real kick out of learning all this. It only solidifies my faith. How much more so it must for you, Mimi, who shares in the heritage of Israel.
One more thing: I notice that you do not use His name in your post. You spell it
G-D. Even as a Christian, do you still feel the reverance that is Jewish custom not to speak His name? I hope you don’t mind me asking. I feel like a sponge which is soaking up information, so that I can understand. Thank you!
March 17th, 2009 at 3:35 pm
One more thing: I find it interesting that leaven representing the Kingdom of Heaven, or the Gospel, is something that grows and spreads. In SGM, very little evangelism was done in a way that was successful. Not from what I saw. Not from what others have said on this site. They go into a city, plant a church, gathering up people who are already believers, for the most part. I don’t think any church plant was started because so many people were redeemed that SGM had to begin a new church. Hmmmmm…
March 17th, 2009 at 5:15 pm
Canary,
HASHEM – this is the name the Jews attribute to our heavenly Father, as they feel it is irreverant to speak HIS name G-D. The O in GOD represents the eternal, ongoing, never ending one, therefore, they won’t even write it. In the old days, of transcribing and writing the Torah, every time they got to the word GOD, they wrote it G-D, broke the writing instrument, and started with a new one. I certainly write and say the word GOD, but I find myself, when referring the the scripture in tying together the old and new covenant, and in sharing the insights and truths of all pointing to our Jesus, I am so in awe, that I still use the G-D… an old habit I guess.
To the Jew, Jesus being referred to the “Bread of Life” is not an acceptable term, as only G-D gives and sustains life, AND since JESUS is NOT G-D for them, HE would be neither, as both leavened and unleavened play vital and important roles in their lives rituals and traditions……….
MiMi
March 17th, 2009 at 6:28 pm
wow! This is some awesome discussion with you guys! I imagine if we lived closer we’d spend quite a bit of late night talking, drinking coffee, and sharing our thoughts..this is what I missed in SGM- the ability to THINK OUT LOUD and not have someone slam me for it or make me feel stupid for trying to figure out the wonderful mysteries of God and His truth. Which I fully believe we are to SEEK Him and SEEK truth and ask questions…something I stopped doing in SGM because I felt sinful doing so.
It’s great to be able to do that here!
I will respond when I have more time…but just wanted to say you all have me thinking now..which I love to do!! It’s like Christmas on the Refuge…hehe
March 17th, 2009 at 8:52 pm
Mimi,
Thanks so much. I wonder, did Jesus calling himself the “bread of life” offend the people He was speaking too? He did quite alot of offending, such as “eat of my flesh and drink my blood”. He lost many followers after that one.
Mimi, you’ve been such a help. I REALY appreciate it!
Juli,
Yes, my brain is working overtime trying to understand it all. Parables are hard enough. Then you get into the meanings of such things as leaven or seeds or fruit (like Ellie was explaining). And, as Mimi said, some things can sound the same and have different meanings. That is what puzzled me about the leaven. Now, after Mimi’s wonderful explanation, I get it!
I have other questions. I want to understand what the leaven of the Pharisees was. I know hypocrisy and corruption has been mentioned. I’m going to see what else is there. I feel very strongly that this will help me, at least, to understand where things went wrong in my SGM church that would drive people away.
March 18th, 2009 at 8:08 am
We went to the most wonderful conference last weekend on the Father’s Love by James Jordan of Father Heart Ministries. We were saturated in the Love of the Father through wonderful worship, sound teaching and Spirit filled prayer. I found this teaching on the internet and want to share it with each of you. James’ teaching on the Father’s love has been life changing for me, even in these last few days. So wonderful to think of the fact that the Father is loving us right now! Hallejuah!!
http://event.cbn.com/spiritual.....ntID=90080
March 18th, 2009 at 8:16 am
Canary,
I know the following list is long, but thought it might be helpful. The definition for self-righteousness according to webster is “more righteous, moral, in one’s own opinion and mind”. The following references are to the pharasees being hypocrites. Yet, at the root of it all, in order to be a hypocrite, isn’t one really self righteous in believing that they are above reproach in their behavior, and because they are, who they are, they are immune to the opinion of others?
Could this perhaps be the leaven of the Pharasees? If so, it may answer alot of your questions about how things got to where they are.
MiMi
“So when you give to the poor, do not sound a trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, so that they may be honored by men Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full.
Matthew 6:1-3 (in Context) Matthew 6 (Whole Chapter)
Matthew 6:5
“When you pray, you are not to be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and on the street corners so that they may be seen by men Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full.
Matthew 6:4-6 (in Context) Matthew 6 (Whole Chapter)
Matthew 6:16
[ Fasting; The True Treasure; Wealth (Mammon) ] ” Whenever you fast, do not put on a gloomy face as the hypocrites do, for they neglect their appearance so that they will be noticed by men when they are fasting Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full.
Matthew 6:15-17 (in Context) Matthew 6 (Whole Chapter)
Matthew 15:7
“You hypocrites, rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you:
Matthew 15:6-8 (in Context) Matthew 15 (Whole Chapter)
Matthew 22:18
But Jesus perceived their malice, and said, “Why are you testing Me, you hypocrites?
Matthew 22:17-19 (in Context) Matthew 22 (Whole Chapter)
Matthew 23:13
[ Eight Woes ] ” But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut off the kingdom of heaven from people; for you do not enter in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.
Matthew 23:12-14 (in Context) Matthew 23 (Whole Chapter)
Matthew 23:14
[" Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you devour widows' houses, and for a pretense you make long prayers; therefore you will receive greater condemnation.]
Matthew 23:13-15 (in Context) Matthew 23 (Whole Chapter)
Matthew 23:15
“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you travel around on sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.
Matthew 23:14-16 (in Context) Matthew 23 (Whole Chapter)
Matthew 23:23
” Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others.
Matthew 23:22-24 (in Context) Matthew 23 (Whole Chapter)
Matthew 23:25
“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you clean the outside of the cup and of the dish, but inside they are full of robbery and self-indulgence.
Matthew 23:24-26 (in Context) Matthew 23 (Whole Chapter)
Matthew 23:27
” Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which on the outside appear beautiful, but inside they are full of dead men’s bones and all uncleanness.
Matthew 23:26-28 (in Context) Matthew 23 (Whole Chapter)
Matthew 23:29
” Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous,
Matthew 23:28-30 (in Context) Matthew 23 (Whole Chapter)
Matthew 24:51
and will cut him in pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 24:50-51 (in Context) Matthew 24 (Whole Chapter)
Mark 7:6
And He said to them, “Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:’ THIS PEOPLE HONORS ME WITH THEIR LIPS,BUT THEIR HEART IS FAR AWAY FROM ME.
Mark 7:5-7 (in Context) Mark 7 (Whole Chapter)
Luke 12:56
“You hypocrites! You know how to analyze the appearance of the earth and the sky, but why do you not analyze this present time?
Luke 12:55-57 (in Context) Luke 12 (Whole Chapter)
Luke 13:15
But the Lord answered him and said, “You hypocrites, does not each of you on the Sabbath untie his ox or his donkey from the stall and lead him away to water him?
Luke 13:14-16 (in Context) Luke 13 (Whole Chapter)
March 18th, 2009 at 10:04 am
Connie,
for some reason that link is redirecting to sgmrefuge.com.
I got the right address by right clicking on the link which brings up the properties window, and then copy & paste the cbn address from the bottom of the properties window.
March 18th, 2009 at 11:58 am
Mimi,
Thank you, again. You have saved me a lot of book searching. I’m the old fashioned, find my huge condordance and look it up type person.
Okay, so here’s what I’m thinking. When leaders spoke of love (the small amount of times that they did), I found that their actions did not match. This would be hypocritical. The words slid off the tongue so easily, yet how quickly were relationships that had lasted for years shattered over disagreement with leadership decisions? That has bothered me for years (I am a 12 year recovering Pharisee).
I saw this happen with relationships I thought would last a lifetime. Larry and Doris T. splitting from CJ was one of them. I won’t mention the others, as they are not “celebrities” in SGM. However, I know of enough splits, even amongst families, to see that “love” was less important to the leadership than following them without question. And, if a man is pastoring a flock, yet puts himself above or before the sheep, this is not a true “shepherd”, because he is not walking in love. That, too, would be hypocrisy.
Matt.23:22-24 is also very applicable to what others here have witnessed:
” Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others.”
Where was justice, mercy, and faithfulness to those who fell by the wayside beneath the authoritarian ways of SGM? Where was it in my own heart when I was following them? We ought to all ask these questions of leadership, especially in the more serious experiences of Noel, Esther, and HappyMom.
I know that, the day the Lord showed me how much of a Pharisee I had been, I could sense his great disappointment. Thank the Lord He has since set me free from those ways. I would never want to grieve him that way, again. I wasn’t even a Big Wig in SGM, yet the Lord showed mercy to me as he revealed the state of my heart to me. Surely, he must wish to reveal to the hearts of some of the leaders if they, too, are following the hypocritical ways of the Pharisees, if there is truly leaven in their hearts?
Unless they just cannot hear, or are not listening. I say this to all SGM leaders (indeed to any church leader anywhere), the welfare of your flock depends on your listening to the Lord, and on the state of your own heart.
” But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut off the kingdom of heaven from people; for you do not enter in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.”
Matthew 23:12-14 (in Context) Matthew 23 (Whole Chapter)
I may say this because I was once there, not entering the beautiful kingdom of heaven in my own life. In my own little way, I was also keeping others from entering, by my actions. The leaven had grown and grown within me, til it choked out any grace that might have been there. Thank the Lord for His mercy! Thank Him for His kindness in showing me who I was. I thank Him for setting me free from the bondage of slavery to ideas that were not His.
I also thank Him because He can do this for all of SGM, as well.
Just thinking online.
March 18th, 2009 at 12:01 pm
Ellie, oh google queen, you said:
Connie,
for some reason that link is redirecting to sgmrefuge.com.
I got the right address by right clicking on the link which brings up the properties window, and then copy & paste the cbn address from the bottom of the properties window.
Huh? I want to hear Connie’s link (Hi, Connie!), but my whittle bird bwain is so confwuesed…
March 18th, 2009 at 12:13 pm
I would like to add to my 11:58 am post: I asked these questions and ponder the answers because of love. That is my motivation. I wish to be clear on this. I love God’s people, and wish them all to walk in the same freedom and grace that many of us have discovered, having left SGM.
March 18th, 2009 at 12:17 pm
ok, silly bird. click on her link.
where does it take you?
I’ll wait.
March 18th, 2009 at 12:30 pm
Ellie,
Her link took me to SGMrefuge. Scratching my head, here. I’ll wait…
March 18th, 2009 at 12:42 pm
Well, Ellie, I tried every which way I could figure to find the link. Maybe you can just re-post it here, like a good, little google queen. This tweetie would be most appreciative! Hugs.
March 18th, 2009 at 2:29 pm
The Quizzler is having a hard time too. Maybe this will work:
http://event.cbn.com/spiritual.....ntID=90080
March 18th, 2009 at 3:41 pm
So sorry for the trouble! Hope this works. If not go to fatherheart.net, scroll to bottom of page and press enter on pictures of James Jordan being interviewed by Gordon Robertson. It is well worth finding. Thanks Mr./Mrs. Quizzler (hummm)
http://event.cbn.com/spiritual.....ntID=90080
March 18th, 2009 at 3:52 pm
When making a comment, you can highlight a word, such as “here”, highlight that word by mousing over it, then click on what looks like a link of chain in the tool bar. You can then add the web address in the window that pops up.
Here’s an example…
Quizzler get’s another “F”
March 18th, 2009 at 4:15 pm
Noooooooooooo, may it never be that the Quizzler would get an “F.” Jim must be grading on a curve
March 18th, 2009 at 4:19 pm
OK, trying this: click here. By the way, this is a great web site (IMHO) because I actually know the owner of it.
March 18th, 2009 at 6:07 pm
I say Quizzler’s “F” is for FUN!
March 18th, 2009 at 6:11 pm
Canary,
Yeah that’s probably what it is
March 20th, 2009 at 12:59 pm
Mimi,
I hope you are still reading, because I have two more questions for you. I understand if you won’t answer publicly, but it would be great if you would (if not, Jim knows my email address – you could answer me that way).
What does the “cross” mean to a Jewish person?
What does the “cross” mean to a Messianic Jew?
I’m sure I could find these things out by research, but I wanted to know from the words of a person who has the experience. I hope I’m not being too personal. Thanks, Mimi.
March 20th, 2009 at 4:08 pm
I’m hoping Mimi will read this and be able to answer my questions. I have gotten such insights from you, Mimi. You’ve helped me understand much about the leaven.
If you can’t help, I understand. I’ll go do my research, and grow my bird brain a little more.
March 20th, 2009 at 8:36 pm
hey all..I haven’t had time to respond, but read a bit..will respond soon! just wanted to pop in..see who’s still “here” reading and writing…
March 21st, 2009 at 9:21 am
Canary ,
The Cross to a Jewish person means nothing more than the form of accepted execution during the time of JESUS’ death. Since HE did not rise from the dead (a false story circulated by HIS followers), then the cross had absolutely NO meaning or purpose of consequence to the Jewish people.
For the completed Jew, it is interesting how the cross is looked at. For most of them, it represents the tool, or vehicle used to bring them to freedom, BUT it is only part of the completed Gospel, which is the fulfillment of all the prophecies that they look at. THEY look at the fact, that JESUS experienced and fulfilled what was fortold as far as HIS suffering in Isaiah 9. They rejoice in HIS resurrection because it proves HE is their Messiah, thus making their salvation possible. The Messianic JEW, many times, most times actually, rather than celebrate Easter, celebrates the Passover as a believer telling of HIS fulfilled promise, equating their “Passover” from lost and eternal death, to eternal life with HIM.
I think the best way to describe how the completed Jew sees the cross is that what they see first and foremost is the completion of the prophecies and HE who fulfilled them. Then, they look at how it was accomplished, rejoicing all the time in the WHO of this great gift and miracle, and then the how.
I look at it kind of like this. It seems that many focus on the “kiss” that Judas gave Jesus as the damming act in his life. When in reality to me, the idea and act of betrayal is what I see that had to take place for our freedom to ensue. Any sign chosen , just as any type of prosecution, would have done the job, but the fact that he betrayed, just as our Lord chose to set us free, AND then the Father raise HIM up, is the actual completion of HIS choice. The cross did not raise HIM up, but the act of willingness to die, so HE could be raised up tells the WHOLE story for me.
In celebrating the “whole” gospel, the Messianic Jew recognizes, honors and celebrates the Trinity. They always refer to G-D, as the Creator of the Universe, Father of all Living things; Giver of Life and sustance. (something I believe we take very much for granted) Jesus of course is the Messiah, the chosen one, redeemer of our souls. And, the Holy Spirit, as in Isaiah 9:6 is spoken of as our Wonderful Counselor, one who brings us to knowledge of The Creator and Messiah. Many times through the years, I have heard the term “we need to look at and be aware of the whole counsel of G-D. Well, they look at the whole being of who GOD is. Just as we should look at, practice and believe in the whole Gospel, they take it one step further, realizing that without, Father , Son, and Holy Spirit, non of this could have taken place at all. They most certainly have a reverence that we, as most believers, tend not to have
Doesn’t mean I am right, just how I see it. Hope this helps and doesn’t confuse.
MiMi
March 21st, 2009 at 12:10 pm
Thank you so much, Mimi. How my little Canary’s heart is singing because of your post!
You wrote:
“Many times through the years, I have heard the term “we need to look at and be aware of the whole counsel of G-D. Well, they look at the whole being of who GOD is. Just as we should look at, practice and believe in the whole Gospel, they take it one step further, realizing that without, Father , Son, and Holy Spirit, non of this could have taken place at all. They most certainly have a reverence that we, as most believers, tend not to have.”
Oh my goodness, that is what I’ve been experiencing. That is what I’ve been trying, in my own little way, to explain! We have the gosepel as our foundation, but we need to move on into KNOWING the wholeness of who God is. The fact that He is three persons is amazing enough, and mindboggling. How can anyone stay focused on an inanimate object (a symbol of death) to find their daily gratefulness for the Lord, when focusing on His actual BEING is what really causes us to grow in joy, peace and faith?! It is the KNOWLEDGE of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit that believers should grow in.
Also, the fact that Jesus, as you said, made a choice to sacrifice Himself is a quality in God that we can explore. Not the cross itself (please, no offense inteneded to anyone!) but His willingess to hang there, when He could have, at any time, gotten down all by Himself!
These thoughts, exploring the nature of who God is, and why Jesus did what He did, excite me. Love grows within me. It didn’t all begin and end at the cross. In SGM, we did not get to go on to learn these wonderful things about our magnificent Lord! I am more and more firmly believing that simply teaching belivievers that “we will never move away from the cross” is great error. One cannot grow into spiritual maturity by remaining fixated on an object of death. I want to be fixated on the One who died, rose, walked around to show He had risen, and then ascended. I want to be looking to the sky, waiting, watching, for His return. If it happens in my life time, I wanna be one of the first to say, “Hey, look! It’s Jesus coming back!!!”
Okay, now I’m thinking about the oil in the virgins lamps – who had oil and was ready for the bridegroom, and who didn’t. What does that mean to us? Who will be ready? Who will have faith when He returns? Off I go to my humongous concordance…
Thank you, Mimi!
March 21st, 2009 at 1:32 pm
Uh oh, I’m stuck in moderation…testing, testing, one, two, three…
March 22nd, 2009 at 11:11 am
If we were meant to hang out at the cross….
….why did the body get buried?
….why did the Resurrection occur?
….why did the Holy Spirit come?
….why did the Apostles preach to thousands immediately following with great joy and signs and wonders?
….why did the missionary journeys?
….why did they not sit and mourn over their sin at the physical and literal place of the cross?
….why did the Lord give the command “GO! and make disciples…”
A partial Gospel is no gospel. It’s like trying to bake a cake with only flour. Without the rest, the eggs and baking soda, it’ll never resemble a cake. Without the burial and miraculous resurrection, there is NO gospel message for the Gospel is GOOD news, according to the Word, not sad, pathetic and mournful. The Gospel is JESUS centered, not ME and my sin centered.
It is leading the people astray to not include the WHOLE story. They leave out the Good news. How can that be right?
March 22nd, 2009 at 11:47 am
Good questions, Remnant. I can say, through my own experience, that focusing on SIN was paralyzing and put me into a helpless state of self-absorption. Now that I’m free from living under that sort of teaching (which, to me, was like leaven that grew and choked my spirit), I have joy and peace, even contentment. These fruits I did not have before the mercy of the Lord showed me the errors I was living. The gospel is my foundation, but there is so much more in knowing God! As Mimi put it, “they (Messianic Jews) look at the whole being of who GOD is.” That is what I want in my life – to know Him as completely as I can while on this earth.
Doesn’t the first point in the apostle’s creed go something like this? Why are we here? To know God, and enjoy Him forever. I think that is what it says. I’ll go look it up.
March 22nd, 2009 at 11:51 am
Whoops, wrong – it isn’t the apostle’s creed. Now where did I read that little ditty? We are to know God, and enjoy Him forever. Memory, don’t fail me now! Of course, isn’t that what we will be doing for all eternity?
Well, memory (and research) has failed me. I know I’ve read something like that before, but just can’t find the source. Sorry. Unless someone out there knows what I’m talking about – that we are to know God and enjoy Him (or worship Him) forever…
March 22nd, 2009 at 12:32 pm
If I may continue to converse with myself online…hee-hee…I found it! It is from the Westminster Catechism, written in 1643.
. What is the chief end of man?
A. Man’s chief end is to glorify God, and to enjoy him forever.
Thank you. Even Miss Queen of Googling (good morning, Ellie!) couldn’t have done better. Oh wait, she would provide a link. Haven’t learned how to do that. Ho-hum, me and my bird brain…
March 22nd, 2009 at 12:39 pm
Remnant
Great stuff, however, do I detect an effort to usurp the Quizzler here?
March 22nd, 2009 at 12:44 pm
Canary,
You are so right on the sin focus thing. That’s why you are singing on top of the cage and the Cat is unhappily confined in the cage.
March 22nd, 2009 at 1:07 pm
the reason that SGM or any church in history focuses on sin, inability to overcome sin, or uses guilt is because they want control and power over you. There is no difference between what churches do and what governments do.
Keep the people ignorant by controlling the media/propaganda/educational input
Keep the people thinking they are inept through doctrines/teachings that will result in them feeling inadequate, and therefore increasing their inability and unwillingness to “revolt” against you
Keep the people dependent on you by ever reminding them of their position vs your own
how does this translate into SGM? Simple.
Keep the sheep thinking they are totally depraved and wicked.
Encourage them to think you stand in the very stead of God.
Remove their ability to think for themselves.
Create an environment that fosters dependence on leaders.
Encourage collective thinking and discourage individual identity or ability to reason.
Over time, all of the above rob us of our joy, and our peace. We begin having a crisis of faith, as we feel more and more out of control – and we are – we have no control over our own lives or faith anymore. These teachings and methods always result in a break down, eventually, and the fruit bears out. For some it takes longer than others. The key is the ability of the individual person to think, ask questions for themselves, and allow themselves to move outside the boundaries established. The more they do this, the more they are treated with contempt – it is the same in governments. Think about it.
March 22nd, 2009 at 2:25 pm
Remnant ……………………. (or should I call you The Quizzler II)?
Very insightful and appropriate questions!
You said……..”The Gospel is JESUS centered, not ME and my sin centered. ”
The fact of the matter is, that when I continue to focus on my sin…………..it’s still really all about me.
N.S.L.B.
March 22nd, 2009 at 2:33 pm
Quizzler, May I ask you a question? You have been signing your posts, N.S.L.B. Would you please explain? Many thanks.
March 22nd, 2009 at 3:33 pm
Bowing my head in embarrassment: I am in no way trying to usurp The Quizzler. It’s just that when things don’t make sense to me, I have questions. You understand, I’m sure.
And, Canary, even I (a Jew), could have told you Westminster Confession. Shucks. Wish you hadn’t found it. Wanted to show off! (But, please, no quizzes on any more of it. That’s the total extent of my Westminster knowledge base.)
I think MiMi is right. As saved Jews, we are truly in a blessed position (oh, not spiritually superior to a saved Gentile, let me finish my sentence….) BECAUSE we have NO PRECONCEIVED notions about Jesus.
What we learn about our Messiah comes as a surprise to us. We are sponges, soaking it all in. We as Jews, seek a sign, while Gentiles seek knowledge. 1 Cor 1:22. To leave Jesus at the cross ain’t no sign. It is the burial and resurrection, after 3 days that is the SIGN. It is the resurrection that makes a Jew KNOW without a shadow of a doubt that Jesus is the promised Messiah. Many people died on crosses. Only one arose from the dead.
And I do think that as Jews, we do feel a bit of an intrinsic responsibility to preserve the whole of the truth. This doesn’t come as a matter of pride but of calling and responsibility….for to the Jews belong the preservation of the Word. The Jews are the authors of the Bible (yes, even Dr. Luke is a Jew for he uses too many Jewishisms to be a Gentile), the Jews perserved the writings with very tedious and methodical techniques.
[All this written with great saddness, too, because there is a strong false belief growing within the Messianic movement which teaches there is a way of salvation apart from Jesus. ]
March 22nd, 2009 at 3:42 pm
Remnant, you wrote: All this written with great saddness, too, because there is a strong false belief growing within the Messianic movement which teaches there is a way of salvation apart from Jesus.
I had no idea. Does this belief within the Messianic movement really have any traction at all?
Amazing. And sad.
March 22nd, 2009 at 5:16 pm
Remnant,
Interesting! If you don’t mind my asking, what was your “conversion” like? What was it like to have a revelation of Jesus as your Messiah? I can only imagine how all the dots connected in your mind, after having understood the Jewish religion during your life. I have learned through reading the OT, and find myself amazed, but sorta like looking at it from the outside.
I think, because this is the “moving on” section of the blog, that one of the ways I have been moving forward in my faith is to understand the “big picture”, to see life from God’s perspective (not always easy!). There is still so much more of the story to be completed. Talking to our Jewish friends here has helped me to remember that this life isn’t just about me (my sin, sin focus, sin digging, or even the cross). It isn’t just about my walk with Jesus. This life is a journey that began so long ago. We are a teeny part of this big picture that will one day result in the return of our Lord Jesus, the rolling up of the earth and the heavens, the creation of a New Jerusalem, the Day of Judgement, and spending eternity in the presence of our Father.
Also, Remnant, you are correct to remind us as well that the Jewish people have kept the scriptures pure for us throughout the ages. The Monks of the middle ages continued this with the NT. Unfortunately, the church at large through the years has intrepreted wrongly how we are suppose to look as the bride of Christ (blame that on the leaven) in some ways. I have felt for so long that the Gospel must have the dust of the ages shaken off it, that we must find and maintain its purity. Remaining at the cross is one of those issues that keep the gospel from being preached in its fullness. Am I right? I know that I had to leave those teachings behind in order to move on into maturity in the Lord (not that I ever forget them!). There is so much more to the fullness of knowing Christ, His Father, and our Great Comforter. That fullness of the Being of God is what Mimi said that Messianic Jews have such a better grasp of.
March 22nd, 2009 at 5:26 pm
Yes. The false teaching is gaining strength as we speak. If the Messianic Movement isn’t fully encompassed, it is only a matter of time (except for a few who will NOT bow to this false teaching, including the faithful congregation around the block from CLC – Son of David). This false belief teaches that “all Israel will be saved.” Period. Apart from Jesus.
The true context of the scripture is that in the END times, all Israel will be saved. That happens AFTER 2/3 of the Jews have been killed off by the tribulations. The 1/3 left alive ALL repent and believe in Jesus and THEREFORE they are saved.
Verses:
2/3 of Israel will be killed: Zech 13:8
All Israel will be saved: Rom 11:26 (Notice when this will happen: when the Deliverer comes – at the Second Advent)
All Jews alive will call upon the One who was pierced: Zech 12:10 (Here they repent of their national sin of the rejection of Jesus the Messiah on the basis of demon possession – their sin which resulted in the destruction of the Temple.)
Read the whole in context: Zech 12-13
I highly recommend this article to you. It does a great job answering the issues facing the Messianic movement today.
March 22nd, 2009 at 5:27 pm
I want to add that I look at men like CJ, and the Big Guys, thinking, “Am I wrong in challenging what they are preaching? I’m no theologian.” Yet, I can read my bible, I’ve been to college, and I’ve sat under doctrinal teaching for nearly 20 years. I can think. I’ve read the OT and NT many times. When it comes to living out my faith, I could no longer remain under SGM teaching and survive, spiritually. It was so unbalanced that, for me to remain, would have been death to my burgeoning faith. To be free from the sin digging (which I believe is leaven) has given my heart so much room to know more of the fullness of Christ, to live in joy, and peace that surpasses understanding. I am no longer a fearful, timid miss much afraid, after years of trying to deal with that amidst the sin teaching. I have to say that the proof is indeed within the pudding. Did any of you see this happen in your own lives when you finally left your controlling church?
Disclaimer: I realize that there are exceptions within SGM.
March 22nd, 2009 at 5:45 pm
Canary,
You need NOT apologize, that which you have learned is from the Holy Spirit, not theologians. Consider the following:
1 Corinthians 2:1-16 And when I came to you, brethren, I did not come with superiority of speech or of wisdom, proclaiming to you the testimony of God. [2] For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified. [3] I was with you in weakness and in fear and in much trembling, [4] and my message and my preaching were not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, [5] so that your faith would not rest on the wisdom of men (theologians), but on the power of God.
[6] Yet we do speak wisdom among those who are mature; a wisdom, however, not of this age nor of the rulers of this age, who are passing away; [7] but we speak God’s wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory; [8] the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it they would not have crucified the Lord of glory; [9] but just as it is written, “Things which eye has not seen and ear has not heard, and which have not entered the heart of man, all that God has prepared for those who love him.”
[10] For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God. [11] For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God. [12] Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God, [13] which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom (theologians), but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words. [14] But a natural man {even a Christian thinking with human understanding} does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. [15] But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one. [16] For who has known the mind of the Lord, that he will instruct Him? But we have the mind of Christ.
March 22nd, 2009 at 5:47 pm
A previous comment in reply to Juli (5:26) is awaiting moderation because I used links.
Canary, my salvation came after great sadness and loss in my life. I lost my dad at a young age. I lost my sister after a long two-year fight with cancer, in which she lost her leg. She was all of 19 when she died. I had just finished my first year of college. It was nigh on impossible to think about the future and life when so deep in mourning.
I had a boyfriend at the time. A catholic. His sister died before mine did, in a tragic New Year’s Eve crash. The following spring, his mother was saved (eventually his father, too) during the great Charismatic Renewal of the Catholic Church in the 70’s. She was a wise woman. Somehow she’d gotten hold of literature explaining the Jewishness of Jesus, which she left on her coffee table for me to read. My saddened heart was ready to hear.
It was during the winter break, 6 months after the loss of my sister, one year after the tragic car crash, that I lay in bed. I cried out in my first heart-felt prayer, “God, if Jesus is the Jewish Messiah, I have to know!” Immediately. Immediately, the scales of blindness fell off my eyes and I saw Jesus. He was standing at the foot of my bed. I had gotten my miracle. 1 Cor 1:22. (I am weak. I needed the miracle.) From that moment, I never once doubted nor wavered in this belief. I did not know the whole gospel until several months later (it was these following months that I went to TAG). But I do believe that my belief on the Messiahship of Jesus, in that moment, I was saved.
I have since come to learn that my experience of “seeing” Jesus is not unique amongst Jewish believers.
I have not asked for a sign since (in case anyone was wondering). I don’t need one any longer. I wasn’t even asking for a sign then. I just got one. I don’t believe in seeking signs. The Word is sufficient to the Christian life. Signs and wonders are for unbelievers, imho (not saying that life is always smooth and easy, but the Holy Spirit leads and guides and comforts).
Anyway, Canary, I think you are right. We need the big picture. To camp out at the cross is so wrong in so many ways! Christ came to give us ABUNDANT life. Oh, please, Canary, don’t get me started. Smile. I hate the false gospel of death and sin. I think you do well to move on.
March 22nd, 2009 at 5:55 pm
Good verses, G.D. Thanks!
March 22nd, 2009 at 6:01 pm
I have two posts in moderation. Unless this one makes three.
March 22nd, 2009 at 6:36 pm
Canary, Juli..
Following are various translations of Rom 8: 34
They ALL refer to the resurrection as completing the sacrifice, and a couple even place a strong inference to placing it above and making it necessary for the sacrifice to be valid… Even Matthew Henry in his commentary (PUBLISHED IN 1706) states about Rom. 8:34. “it is Christ that died. By the merit of His death he paid our debt and the surety’s payment is a good plea to an action of debt. It is Christ, an able all-sufficient Savior. His resurrection: YEA RATHER, THAT HAS RISEN AGAIN. This is a much greater encouragement, for it is a convincing evidence that divine justice was satisfied by the merit of His death. HIS RESURRECTION WAS HIS ACQUITTANCE, IT WAS THE LEGAL DISCHARGE. THEREFORE, THE APOSTLE (PAUL) MENTIONS IT WITH A “YEA, RATHER.” IF HE HAD DIED, AND NOT RISEN AGAIN, WE WOULD HAVE BEEN WHERE WE WERE.”
YOU MAY NOW STAND FOR THE HALLALUJAH CHORUS!!!!
Just thought you would like it.
MiMi
Rom
KJV - Rom 8:34 -
Who [is] he that condemneth? [It is] Christ that died, yea rather, that is risenagain, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
© Info: - King James Version 1769 Info
NKJV - Rom 8:34 -
Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.
© Info: - New King James Version © 1982 Thomas Nelson
NLT - Rom 8:34 -
Who then will condemn us? Will Christ Jesus? No, for he is the one who died for us and was raised to life for us and is sitting at the place of highest honor next to God, pleading for us.
© Info: - New Living Translation © 1996 Tyndale Charitable Trust
NIV - Rom 8:34 -
Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died–more than that, who was raised to life–is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us.
© Info: - The Holy Bible, New International Version© 1973, 1978, 1984 International Bible Society
ESV - Rom 8:34 -
Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us.*
Footnote:
* Or Is it Christ Jesus who died… for us?
© Info: - English Standard Version © 2001 Crossway Bibles
March 22nd, 2009 at 6:53 pm
Remnant, your post gave me chills! I have read that Muslims also have such a vision and sign during their conversions – and it is more typical than not. Isn’t He good to give us what We need to believe? He doesn’t have to – but He does.
March 22nd, 2009 at 6:54 pm
I’m hearing the music, Mimi! He is risen!!!
Remnant,
Hang in there. Some of us have been stuck in moderation this weekend. Your posts will show up!
March 22nd, 2009 at 7:03 pm
Remanant,
I’ve read your 5:47 post. What a beautiful revelation you had! I have no doubt that you saw the Lord, because it resulted in your salvation and faith in Him.
I’m so sorry you suffered such grief. Thank you for sharing your experience with all of us.
March 22nd, 2009 at 7:14 pm
I’m wondering something. My ex-pastor must have known the full gospel. He certainly knew the bible (he was one who’d gone through seminary, not just the PC). Why did he (and later on many of the SGM churches) feel the need to settle at the cross? Why is that so appealing to this organization? Why preach an incomplete gospel? Why preach the gospel to believers? Oh well, maybe this isn’t a subject for “moving on”. I just wish I could understand why.
Sorry, Mimi and Remnant. My gentile genes are showing (signs verses wisdom
).
March 22nd, 2009 at 8:09 pm
Would you dear saints please pray for my brother David who is in the hospital with pneumonia and septicemia? Thank you so much. He has a dear wife and 4 children who need prayer also.
March 22nd, 2009 at 8:12 pm
LOL Canary. You can’t be a bird of a different stripe. (Did I just mix metaphors?)j
Canary, you can’t figure this out, I’m sure. Maybe it was easier to follow than fight. Maybe he was persuaded that he was wrong. Maybe he is under conviction for this change of mind and/or focus.
Leave him behind. Move on, dear Canary. Take your tweet and sing a new song. A beautiful song. He is risen indeed! He loves you. He has made you a new creation, the old is gone, the new is come. You are washed and His Holy Spirit lives in you. Go and bear fruit.
March 22nd, 2009 at 8:13 pm
Yes, Connie.
March 22nd, 2009 at 8:24 pm
Father we pray for Connie’s brother, David, who is going through a very serious medcal problem. We pray that you will touch his body and those attending to him in a supernatural way. We also pray for his wife as she looks on helplessly; we pray for comfort and faith to be gifted to her by you, and may this reminder of mortality remind us all of who we are and how precious the gift of life is. Father touch David’s life in a healing way, as you see fit and for your glory. We cannot ask for more!
March 22nd, 2009 at 8:51 pm
Amen, G.D. Connie, I’m praying, too. Please keep us updated. Big wing cuddles to you!
Remnant,
Thanks. Good advice. One day, when it is all over, we will know everything. I am filled with questions. In heaven, I’ll be yanking on His robe (if we wear robes) asking, ”Lord, why did you put a big red spot on Jupiter? How can you possibly know all our names? How can you name and remember all the stars in the universe? Why did you make the sky blue? Why did you let the universe continue to expand? And what DID happen to the dinosaurs?”
Not one of those questions will have anything to do with sin. Now there is an eternal thought for you…
March 22nd, 2009 at 9:05 pm
Hey Canary,
I haven’t been commenting lately (but once, I think), but following along in these discussions–and benefiting. Your question at 7:14 about why SGM churches would settle at the cross got me thinking about CJ, of course, and how he promotes the idea in his book, Humility. Maybe his explanation there about “mortifying pride” (isn’t that sort of an oxymoron?) would answer your question somewhat. I’ll quote a bit for you…
“For me, the most consistently helpful item on the list [of practical ways I have found to weaken pride and cultivate humility--to help me tremble at His Word and help me stay focused on pursuing true greatness] is this: Reflect on the wonder of the cross of Christ. I believe this will be the most important habit and practice for you as well. To truly be serious and deliberate in mortifying pride and cultivating greatness [humility], you must each day survey the wondrous cross on which the Prince of Glory died.”
He goes on to quote John Owen as saying, “Fill your affections with the cross of Christ that there may be no room for sin.”
And then Martyn Lloyd-Jones: ”There is only one thing I know of that crushes me to the ground and humiliates me to the dust, and that is to look at the Son of God, and especially contemplate the cross….Nothing else can do it. When I see that I am a sinner…that nothing but the Son of God on the cross can save me, I’m humbled to the dust….Nothing but the cross can give us this spirit of humility.”
Now I agree with you completely Canary, I think you know. So I don’t put these quotes here to debate the issue, but to offer up the possible explanation for why they feel that they’re doing the right thing in staying at the cross. In my opinion, CJ/SGM may be misunderstanding Owen and Lloyd-Jones because it is one thing to know that I need to remember what Christ suffered for me, but it’s another thing entirely to make that central (but I could be wrong about Owen and Lloyd-Jones as I have read very little of them). It seems like CJ is saying that because he has such a great desire to grow in holiness, he’s going to do what he believes is the best thing to do in order to make that happen–focus on the cross.
This has been something that has stood out to me since I had my eyes opened about SGM–that it seems like the most important goal in life, to SGM, is pursuing holiness. If that’s the case, then it follows that they would make central whatever they believed to have the greatest impact on that goal. But, as I think I’ve mentioned on here before, we cannot produce the fruit of the Holy Spirit in our hearts.
The more I’ve studied about sanctification, the more I’ve come to believe that growth happens best in our lives when our eyes are off ourselves and instead directed in faith towards God. Faith that He’ll do as He promised (Romans 8:29), for one.
Anyway, I wanted to offer those thoughts from the big guy of SGM on why they focus on the cross. I do think it’s another method for pursuing holiness–actually, THE method, to CJ. If God were the pursuit (John 14:6) and there was fear of Him over fear of man (or church organization), then the cross would be one part of the WHOLE gospel message, and all the other various truths of the Scripture that seem to be lacking from the teaching wouldn’t be ignored (like they seem to be).
March 22nd, 2009 at 10:19 pm
Bree,
Thank you SO much. My dear friend, Remnant has advised me to move on from this question, to go out and bear fruit. Now I can do this with ease (’cause I sorta got an answer – hee-hee). I remember all the talk on pursuing holiness in PDI/SGM, and rejected that, to pursue Christ. My husband reminds me how once, our ex-pastor said that he prayed the world would see God’s “pure and holy church”. My h. found that hard to swallow, because the church isn’t to be lifted up. Jesus is to be.
“I have to ask (I know, another question – I’m just such a danged curious Canary), do these men struggle so much with pride that they must continually grieve over their sin as they remain at the cross?” I don’t know, it seems that, the more time I spend waiting on the Lord, the less I think about myself, or pride, or any sin. I think I become more like HIm because He shows me Himself, and He kinda rubs off on me.
Today, I had a talk with the Lord about a particular motive I had in wanting a particular thing (details are unimportant). After years of not looking at this motive (which is an ungodly one), I finally admitted to the Lord that this motive was there. Duh…no surprise to Him. He probably wiped His mighty brow and said, “Sheesh, finally she admits it!”
So, we talked, I said I was sorry, and that I desired to have His mind on the matter. I know He wishes that, as well. So now I wait for His Spirit to do the work, to change my thinking to be like His. It was simple, gentle, and there weren’t even any tears or remembering the cross or lashing myself with a wet noodle…sorry, no sarcasm. The Lord and I are in agreement that my sin has been paid for like all the rest, and I shouldn’t allow it any room in my thinking, anymore. However, He will do the work of change in me. All I have to do is cooperate.
I hope this doesn’t sound irreverant. It’s just the way it happened. No condemnation. Just a change in my thinking is all that the Lord required. Now He can work more of HImself into me in this particular area of my life.
So, (uh-oh, another question – Quizzler, I don’t mean to be filling your shoes!), if I, being a lowly, little canary, can have the Lord’s ear on the matter of my sin, and come out of it like I did, why don’t these men who seem so holy and smart, find the same freedom from their sin? Why must they continually wallow in the ugliness of their pride, etc. at the foot of the cross? Man, I’m sitting at the feet of Jesus, instead, and seeing real change, real joy, and great contentment. Jesus saw some dirt on my feet today, and washed them for me. I am happy that He did, and look forward to seeing Him change me in the particular area He showed me. It’s exciting.
I guess I’m asking another question because I don’t think people ought to be following men who have such trouble with pride, who haven’t been truly set free from it. I mean, how many more years do these guys have to “mortify pride” before they are thinking like God on the matter? He is big and we are small. Simple.
Okay, Remnant. Movn’ on.
March 22nd, 2009 at 10:42 pm
Movin’ on is process, Canary. You won’t find me hounding you for your good and legitimate questions. Movin’ on can only happen in total if you lay all the issues out there – for your sake. Voice the questions. Then leave them for the Lord to resolve. It might take quite awhile to find the question to voice. And once you’ve voiced all your questions and have moved on, don’t be surprised that another question pops up out of the blue in a week, a month, a year…. it is all in God’s cleansing process.
The Lord knows full well what y’all who have spent decades in SGM have been subjected to. The Lord knows how your hearts have been tugged and mugged. The Lord knows how your minds have been twisted and shaped and lied to (either covertly or overtly). He knows how you’ve been mistreated then and since.
The questions are not simple ones. They are not few.
They can be left unanswered. Sigh. Without resolution. Double sigh. (Who here doesn’t like unresolved issues?)
When I say “move on” I mean that it does no good to camp out on SGM issues. There is so much more to your life. But when the Lord brings to memory an issue, listen. Understand what He is speaking to your heart: Canary, here’s an offense you suffered. Canary, here’s an evil perpetrated. Canary, here’s a teaching that wasn’t quite right. Canary, here’s where you embraced a lie. Canary, here’s where someone hurt your feelings. Canary, here’s where you believed you were no better than the leaders. Hear Him. He whispers the truth to you. Repent if you must. But then lay it at His feet. And move on for the day. For He does not condemn you. And neither do I.
March 22nd, 2009 at 10:53 pm
Aw, Remnant, I didn’t think you were condemning me. I can hear your heart in your words. Maybe answering some of these questions here will help others stuggling with their current situation. I don’t hurt like I use to, which is maybe why I can ask these things. I feel for those still left in the bondage of confusion and control. This blog is for them.
You are a really nice person, Remnant!
March 22nd, 2009 at 11:37 pm
Canary,
I have a couple of thoughts…
It has been a very, very short time since we left our SG church. So fresh in my memory is the way I perceived the teaching, what I thought to be the correct doctrine. I believed that it was important/godly to see my sin and necessary to have help in seeing my sin because of the deceitfulness of sin. Of course, that is Scriptural, that sin is deceitful. But I can’t help now seeing how deceived I was by the teaching–legalism. Anyway, in focusing on my sin, on myself, I was sinning more. It kind of makes sense, to be self-focused and preoccupied with my sanctification would seem naturally to produce self-centeredness and all sorts of related sins. Is that the experience of the leadership as well? I don’t know. But law does produce sin, does it not? (Romans 7:5, Romans 5:20, Romans 7:8)
What you said, about Christ rubbing off on you made me think of the verse about beholding the glory of the Lord and being changed into his image, 2 Corinthians 3:18. Just this morning, I was thinking about accountability (as you know, a big thing within SGM) and how I don’t agree with the idea–not the way they put it forth. And the realization came to me that now, since I’ve been set free from thinking submitting to God means submitting to my church, I have more faith in God to make me holy than in my church. That’s a huge thing for me as I’ve always had a hang up about needing the church to prevent me from falling away (and we’re not in a church right now). But what does the Word say? ”for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I’ve committed unto Him against that day.” (2 Timothy 1:12)
I agree with you, it should be about Christ and not the church–in every way. Please don’t misunderstand–I’m not completely anti-church. This is just where we’re at right now–between churches. And I trust God to care for us during this time.
Thank-you for sharing how God worked in your life today. That’s encouraging. And faith building to hear how you’re trusting Him to make the changes in you.
Just one more thought, because I think both my husband and I myself felt this way… To keep oneself focused and on the look out for sin while a part of SG, may be at least partially a by-product of the enforced (maybe too harsh a word) openness, confessing of sins and drawing out. One would want to be on top of things if one knew that fellow care group members would be drawing one out or asking where or how one is struggling–this sounds like fear of man, I guess. And maybe there’s also a fear of becoming deceived by sin if you aren’t constantly searching for it (I think I felt that way). I think the Word says to be on guard, but not to be hunting. And also, David prayed for God to search his heart. I think there’s something to be considered there, too, regarding digging for sin.
I’m so glad I’m set free from all of that, but I do feel bad for those who continue in that way. It really lacks faith, doesn’t it? That cannot be a good thing.
March 23rd, 2009 at 1:16 am
the question has been asked: Why is that (focusong on the cross and sin) so appealing to this organization?
I offer this as an answer: in order for anyone to control another, you must have certain things in place. One of these things, as perhaps most important, is another person (or persons) who feel inadequate, unable, inept, etc..unable to make decisions on their own, or at least to question every single decision they make. This creates a dependent state. Then, they “fill in the blank” conveniently enough, with what? THEMSELVES. They become our Savior and answer to our questions, our “covering”, our man on earth who “stands in the stead of God,” the “overseer of our souls” and on and on and on.
It’s about power and control. Never forget that. It is a spiritual trap that gets the best of us, devours us, and spits us out – only afterwards we are unable/struggle to think for ourselves, unable/struggle to trust anyone, unable/struggle to make decisions apart from someone else’s approval, and worst of all…not having a shred of joy, peace or faith.
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: THIS is why they are doctrines of death, not life.
But, praise God – He opened our eyes, continued to give grace, continued to reveal truth, and by His Spirit we were set free. And now we can experience the abundant life promised to His children.
March 23rd, 2009 at 2:34 am
Bree,
I hope you are finding help and hope through this blog. Having been out of SGM for only a short time, it is so good that you have others to talk with who have been in your shoes.
2 Tim. 1:12 – cool. How many of us were taught that we would fall away from the Lord if we left the churches we were in? How much fear did this instill in us? Peter still walked with the Lord during the times he was imprisoned. So did Paul. They didn’t get a “pass” to attend church meetings and accountability groups. Neither did John who, after being boiled in oil and surviving, was sent to the island of Patmos. Did he fall away? No! He wrote the book of Revelations.
Some of what we were taught to believe was just plain, ole’ superstition. I am glad you are doing well as you learn from the Master Teacher. One day, He will guide you and your family into your calling, where ever that may be. Enjoy your rest in the Lord!
I’m glad it was helpful that I shared about my talk with the Lord, today. I still find it hard sometimes to be vulnerable, to let others see inside of me. Trust is so difficult to re-learn after betrayal shatters it. I was thinking, good grief, how many people are reading this post? Ever seen a Canary with pink cheeks? Then, I found myself hoping that others would understand God’s heart on the matter of dealing with our weaknesses and faults. It needn’t be this huge distraction. It was simple and sweet. I could relish God’s goodness in taking another part of my life and making it like His. Now I’m back to resting in and enjoying His presence.
Well, this Canary has chirped quite enough the past couple of days. I hope others will feel the freedom to come on here and tell us how they have moved on after their SGM experience. Maybe, in our own small way, we can encourage each other to remain in the faith, to grow in the knowledge of the fullness of God, and to endure until He comes again.
March 23rd,