Aug
9
Beloved in Christ:
This post is closed to comments, as 650+ makes it virtually impossible to load. You can now leave comments at Moving On 2 here.
This is part of the refuge zone. Criticize a poster, and we’ll delete your comment.
Please feel free to yell at us here.
We’ve moved many of the posts in this thread to the “Concerned?” page here.
–PK & PD
I’m better off and I am thankful to have endured my experience because I doubt I would have believed the psychology of legalistic systems unless I experienced it firsthand.
It took me a long time to get over the pain I experienced after being dismembered from my church family. I really loved our church and most of the relationships I had outside of my immediate family were drawn from the church (mistake, but I digress.) My experience being dismembered is a part of who I am today.
I am a loud (articulate, perhaps not,) voice of dissent with regard to legalistic systems, draconian parenting teachings, and hyper patriarchal systems.
I have learned to accept myself for who I am. I am in the process of growing and becoming, but my basic temperament is a manifestation of His Image and I will not consent to people trying to mold me into their version of the Christian standard for Biblical womanhood or whatnot.
On the other hand, I think SGM churches have a lot to offer this broken world. Their strength, however, rests in their people not necessarily from the charisma of their leadership. The people love G0d and they love people, if the legalistic systems could be broken down, these churches could be a powerfully positive influence in their environments. I really hope and pray that this would happen in the near future.
DB-thank you for posting here!
dismembered
Well, it has been a long, long time since our PDI experience, but I can tell you the impact of those years and the lessons learned have stayed with me. I am much better off.
I have become adamant about a couple of issues that sometimes get a little muddled (or mangled) in SGM churches. First and foremost, I carefully guard my relationship with the Lord, not allowing a mere man to ever step between me and my Savior. Though I am quite stubborn on this point at times, this doesn’t mean I won’t hear or learn from others. But ultimately, I try to take everything to the Lord and hear for myself. ”As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him.” 1 John 2:27 I don’t care if I am labeled “independent” (as if that were a negative thing) and I am extremely hesitant to tow any sort of line if it is not Scripturally mandated or my own personal conviction/direction from the Lord. I was not this way during my PDI years. Wanting to fit in and be acknowledged and approved by the leadership, I readily did what was expected. I was nauseatingly submissive for awhile. The perfect little PDI woman. Many of you wouldn’t have liked me very much back then! But through the pain and difficulty of those experiences, I have learned what the New Covenant is really all about. This has resulted in the most precious gift of all – greater intimacy with Jesus.
The other way that the Lord has “bettered” me is in discovering a much broader sense of the Body of Christ. After losing my church family in one devastating blow, I began to diversify! I had the opportunity to travel overseas and fellowship with a large group of Christians from around the world (in Israel). In addition, my husband, children and I have all been on overseas mission trips which have opened our eyes to the beauty of His people and His great love for them all. I found out that the Lord is working in many other places besides America and PDI! And that He has some pretty fantastic folks who aren’t plugged in to any PDI church and some pretty exciting ministries that PDI would consider “parachurch” (once again, in a negative way). This awareness has decimated the prideful ”we’re doing church right” feeling that I always got in PDI and held in my own heart for awhile.
I have had the opportunity to work in an arts school for homeschoolers. There I met Catholics, Charismatics, Presbyterians, Methodists, Baptists, etc. and had a great time! Some of these ladies are my closest friends and we don’t even attend the same church. The same is true of my children. At my daughter’s birthday party a few years back, I noticed with joy that there were guests there from our church, from the arts school, from dance, from the volleyball team, from the neighborhood, etc. We have had opportunities to meet nonChristians as well doing community service and community theater. As a result, I don’t think I would ever be able to go back to such a myopic view of the Body.
So, even though PDI left its mark on our lives, the Lord God has redeemed it all. We are better and stronger. We are free. There is great joy in that! I think it’s time to watch the dancing you tube video and praise the Lord!
Gracie,
That was so encouraging to me! Thank you so so much for sharing.
Wow. I want to be more like you =) You are so much like Jesus.
“First and foremost, I carefully guard my relationship with the Lord, not allowing a mere man to ever step between me and my Savior. ”
You are one smart cookie, Gracie!!:D
“I was nauseatingly submissive for awhile. The perfect little PDI woman.”
ROFL – I am SO glad you have changed!! {{{{{{{{{ }}}}}}}}}}}}
Oh dear. Summer, thank you for your kind words. However, I must say, I’ve still got a LONG way to go to be like Jesus (although I’m not going to spout the “I’m the worst sinner I know” mantra).
)
Thanks for the hugs, Ellie!
Gracie,
Your words bring much hope and faith in the Father to many reading here… and, I’m sure to many, many more that you interact with daily!
To look back and glean from your experiences, to take that knowledge and build conviction in Him and in His Word, and live your life rooted and grounded in Him is the epitome of freedom!
You are an inspiration… and your life and words point us right back to Him! It just doesn’t get any better than that!!
Grace said:
“So, even though PDI left its mark on our lives, the Lord God has redeemed it all. We are better and stronger. We are free. There is great joy in that!”
Yes!
Thank you so much for posting here. My desire would be to see this thread eclipse the “Your Story” thread with stories of God’s faithfulness.
Hey – great topic,
When you are in the deep end of the SGM pool you don’t have a clue you are drowning. I am glad that I was misjudged and given the boot. I thank God for it. I loved them too much and it was the only way God would have gotten me out. In the deep end: I stopped growing, I lost the joy of my salvation, and I worked every minute of my day to earn man’s approval. Now: I pray everyday with faith and trust, I worship every day with joy, I read my bible constantly and I am so hungry for more of God, I have a church that preaches truth with love, they encourage sharing your faith one on one with those in your community (that’s new), they encourage you to live a holy life not out of a fear of man but rather out of total love for Christ. I forgive CLC/SGM and if I could go back in time and change what happened – I wouldn’t. It has made me get on my knees and discover who Jesus is, it has made me stronger, more confident, more joyful. It turns out my thorn(losing CLC/SGM) came from a Rose. I wouldn’t change a thing. We serve a truly amazing God and I am more in love with Him!
Butterfly,
“It turns out my thorn came from a Rose.” That is so beautiful!
I will never regret spending 20-odd years in PDI/SGM. I learned many good things, and had some memorable experiences. I don’t regret the bad times that came, because they caused me to seek Jesus with all my heart. He found me, convicted me of being a Pharasee, and then forgave me. My whole life changed. To this day, I see the Lord’s merciful hand in my family’s experience, even though it was so dreadfully painful.
Even today, I carry a deep respect for my ex-pastors. I cannot agree with their rigid and religious ways, but I continue to have hope for them. I get angry at the injustice of enslaving people like they do, but I am not angry at them. That, too, is a merciful gift from the Lord.
There is a wonderful woman, a pastor’s wife, who in my early church days spent three years showing me how to love God’s will above my own. I will continue to be grateful to her for the hours upon hours she spent with me, for holding me while I cried, for feeding me hot soup after my car broke down in rush-hour traffic, for listening to my fears, and encouraging my hopes. In her eyes now, I might seem like one of her “failures” because I’m no longer in SGM, my husband and I having turned from the organization over eleven years ago. If it were not for those three short years of learning to love God’s will, I would not be who I am today. To this woman, I say another “thank you” from deep within my heart. I will always, always be grateful to her.
Canary,
there was a woman like that when I was first in PDI and for several years afterwards. I miss those earlier days with her and her wonderful family. So much.
Ellie,
I understand. It is so hard when relationships change and grow apart. But we have the memories!
Acme,
That was so funny. This week end, my friend I so needed a hug, a story, a snack, an ear, and a lovey. It was a hard long weekend.
Today, I slept in the sun, swam alittle, played pinball and air hockey against my neighbors son, had a coke slurpee, shopped and read 2 chapters of pilgrims progress… I was worn out with the goodness of God. Thanks again for your perspective.
“the “I’m the worst sinner I know” mantra”
Hey, here’s an idea. Next time CJ says that, you slap him across the face. (Hard.) Then you smile and say, “There. Now you’ve met someone worse than you and you never have to say that again.”
OK, so you’re shocked. But don’t tell me at least one of you didn’t smile just a little bit internally.
Crud! I wrote that post BEFORE I read the rest of what happened in here. (You guys really may want to consider monitoring my posts before you allow me to post here.)
I’m sorry to have been some what inappropriate given the tone of this post.
Now that I am done reading all of it I just want to give Bobbi a great big hug. It’s not easy to hurt. I admire your willingness to be so transparent with us. That took a lot of courage. Thank you for trusting us with your heart so much.
Hello all. I am a “not (yet) out” SGMer, but it sounds from the tone like I am allowed to post here.
I am asking myself many similar questions: How to know if it is okay to stay; how to know if it is time to move on.
Music Man’s point above about “if you have spouse and children” and how the “conflict” might be affecting them hits very close to home for me. In my situation there is no conflict, so for me I would word it that I have turned my observations to seeing how being a part of SGM is affecting “Fly-mate and maggots” (note my monicker is “Fly”).
I think I saw somewhere (here? the other SGM blog? can’t remember) the point was made that SGM churches work well for people who are healthy or strong, but things start breaking down where individuals within the “program” are questioning, or struggling, or experience something beyond the SGM scope of “normal”.
When you combine sheltered SGM kids with “different” experiences, and plug them into the SGM youth care group ministry, I begin to see “conflict” (as in trying to fit a round peg into a square hole”. Plus, there are all these little SGM clone children, who are legitimately trying to walk with the Lord, but have no example but SGM. These children, and then young adults, are being put into “Care” Groups, and then taught within this context to do the SGM sin-sniffing exercises. But, then you get a group of kids where the first five are saying, “I’m really struggling to get up for quiet times.” “I am having trouble managing my time.” “I’m fighting with my brother again.” “I need (“want”) this new pair of shoes, but my parents won’t pay for it.” Then, along comes round peg who says something like, “I’m anorexic, and I haven’t eaten since last Wednesday. I think it’s probably wrong, but I can’t stop, and frankly I don’t want to.” or “I’ve been struggling with suicidal thoughts. I found that if I cut, it relieves the pressure so that the crises passes, but I think it’s wrong.” or “I was raped by an adult in the church.” or “I think I am attracted to the same sex.”
SGM doesn’t handle these issues well, let alone SGM youth. So either “Round Peg” (RP) gets stupid or bad answers, or makes up lame things to say, or just withdraws and doesn’t talk in care group.
If RP manages to talk to the Care Group Leader, RP and parents get referred to a pastor. Pastor may be your basic CW (NC) variety, and direct RP immediately to the “obvious” sin issues that he/she needs to immediately address in his/her life. Or pastor may be the empathetic variety. Empathetic pastor sympathasizes, sets up additional sessions, and encourages “RP” to share with “trusted” individuals within the care group to foster openness and accountability, which is stupid because the kid in the care group has no idea what to do with that information.
Either way, the pastor has followed the SGM format and not referred RP to get real help, which RP really needs. RPs parents walk a tight rope trying to figure out what they should do… quietly get RP outside help? Let RP continue seeing the pastor exclusively? Leave SGM entirely? Or maybe the parents aren’t even aware of all this stuff, because RP is not open with them…
So, Fly is sitting on the wall seeing all this stuff flying around, watching the Fly-babies, the Fly-Mate, and beginning to think Fly needs to get out. But for this particular Fly there is some particularly sticky Flypaper (like there isn’t some sort of flypaper making escape difficult for every other fly…)… This won’t be easy. Will I have to cut off my leg to escape?…
And I can see why the Reformed Big Dogs aren’t aware of these things… Every church has issues, dissenters… We’ve heard those lines. Plus, the written materials published by SGM largely seem so (theologically and otherwise) dead-right-on! It must be hard for someone on the outside to believe the stories that are starting to surface. Some of the pastors are really sincere, and some of the pastors are just really good at the practice they have developed of speaking so carefully, so theoretically correctly, so graciously to one group, and so arrogantly, so poisonously, so sure of themselves and their God-given gift of “identifying and pointing out” the sin in others’ lives. I think Fly will probably still find these materials to be spiritually edifying even when on the outside…
So that’s where Fly currently is on moving on. Sorry if this post hits at a bad place for other conversations, but my computer has been sluggish, and my day has been busy, and it has taken me close to four hours to complete this post.
Fly
To the Blogmaster(s) (Jim? PK?)
I tried to edit my post while it still had the “Click to Edit” button up, but I received the message “You do not have permission to edit this post. Close.”
Thought you would want to check to see if the edit feature is working properly. Thanks.
Fly
Fly,
You only have a certain amount of time to edit, I think.
Interesting observations. Boy, if someone told me their kid was thinking of suicide, you better believe I’d point them to professional Christian counseling! Anorexia – what a deadly thing to deal with. How can anyone take these things so lightly, and believe they have the knowledge/ability to handle the counseling of people like this with only 9 months of PC under his belt? And how difficult to say, “I’m attracted to the opposite sex” when the kids around you are talking about little things like not having a quiet time or fighting with their siblings?
None of these serious conditions are surpising to God. His great love can change anything! These are the weak and wounded that SGM has, in the past, overlooked or left behind. The “help the strong, pray for the weak” strategy is not Christ-like. Jesus will go out of His way to go after the stray and the downcast. “I am the Good Shepherd. The Good Shepherd risks and lays down His own life for the sheep.” John 10:11, amplified.
Fly, your current observations only underline what has been said on this blog, and survivor’s blog. Your voice is going to speak loudly, here!
Thank you, Canary. I will be here quietly watching, while I struggle with my flypaper.
Oh, I wanted to reply to something else Music Man had said, about approaching the Leadership to open a conversation… To use a fire and smoke analogy I saw on the Survivors blog a few months ago, …I think the building is on fire. There is no time to make an appointment with a pastor; I think it is time to cut and run. There may be time to trip the fire alarm o my way out…
Or, to use the Jim Jones/Kool Aid analogy, I think I am surrounded by sincere folks drinking drugged Kool Aid, and everyone is so excited about how great the Kool Aid is. I may just have to nod, and talk about how great the Kool Aid is, and pretend to drink it, and then slip quietly out the exit with Fly-Mate and maggots, and hope they don’t notice and don’t send gift-boxes of Kool Aid to my home trying to entice me back…
Fly, I understand your problem. Ultimately, you have to decide whether your priority in life is your horizontal relationships (people and what they think of you), or your vertical relationship (God and what he thinks of your obedience to him).
God had to bring me to the point of understanding (i.e., he had to renew my mind) that I’d been practicing idolatry by caring about what the pastors and other people around me thought, as I struggled with leaving. This was after the Spirit had taken me through much of the Bible, and highlighted many verses to show me what He wanted me to pursue in Him and how that was not present in my SGM church.
Over time, God gave me a vision of what I needed to go TO, in order to worship Him “in spirit and truth” — worship/practice that would bring me into my own spiritual destiny. Once I understood that vision, I realized that no one at SGM had ever asked me what my vision/destiny was — it was always assumed that whatever the pastors said was THE vision (and it changed regularly over the years!), would automatically be MY vision!! (In order to agree with that, I had to keep drinking the Kool-Aid to silence the voice of the Spirit in me, telling me that He had a unique vision for me that no longer corresponded with the SGM vision.)
What I’m trying to say, in short, is that things will become much clearer to you when you stop trying to make things easy for yourself — sounds like they’re no longer easy, anyway! — and start asking God what His plan is for your own life and your family’s destiny. I’m sure He’s sown a lot of seeds of such a vision in yourself and your wife, over the years. What God-given dreams/visions are you having to squelch/throttle, in order to stay in SGM and continually follow THEIR vision?
It also becomes clearer when you realize that the role of pastor/teachers, and the other “five-fold ministries,” is to equip YOU to do the work of ministry. That means SGM churches should be producing hundreds and hundreds of increasingly mature Christians, who are able to go out and practice their own ministries — spiritual or secular — evangelize the lost, disciple other believers, start their own churches, etc., with LESS and LESS reliance upon their SGM pastors!
If your SGM church is NOT preparing/equipping you in these ways (helping you define YOUR OWN vision/destiny, and equip you to succeed in that and eventually become a “father” as discussed in 1 John), then you should have already been looking around for a place that will help you do that.
Ultimately, sitting fat-and-happy in an SGM church, following the path of least resistance, can itself be sinful – if the Spirit is telling you that He’s calling you to something different/better. Remember that when Abraham and Joseph (Mary’s husband) got orders from God in the middle of the night, they acted on the commands IMMEDIATELY. That’s the “right-away” part of the SGM-approved definition of “obedience” (the other parts, of course, being 2) all the way, and 3) with a good attitude!).
When God showed me that, I finally realized that my staying in SGM was not only uncomfortable and unpleasant, but actually sinful. That got my attention and led to my departure – but looking forward to the better thing God had planned for ME!
Your fat and happy comments are reminding me that one of the reasons people are so happy (I’m not sure about fat,) is because the esteemed leadership thinks for you. You get to put your brain on autopilot and chill with your instant SGM friends.
When you go out into the big bad world out there you have to scrape and manage and actually *think* and *pray* and get direction for yourself.
After years of kicking back and having your obedience as the gold standard, putting on your big girl pants and doing this stuff for yourself is daunting.
Fly,
I’m sorry-I’m buried today..
You should have 10 minutes to edit a post.
Thank you for your input. To be blunt, my issues with separation are that no separation can be a complete separation due to blood relatives in a close knit extended family…
Fly-
Family ties make the separation tough, for sure-I didn’t have this, but knew many who did. That really makes it all the more, a painful decision.
Fly,
I agree wholeheartedly with your observation regarding the square peg/round hole. For the first few years, our family tried very hard to fit the mold, and succeeded fairly well. Deep down, however, there were already things brewing….. By the time the perfect storm hit for us, complete with psychiatric crisis, no one at our church seemed to know what on earth to do. They just didn’t know! I personally was finished when our cg leader said, when I told him I didn’t know if I even believed the Bible anymore, “Then I don’t think we can help you.” At least he was honest – ha!
I am a former Mormon, and know the whole lose-the-family thing. Oh yeah.
Fly, is your extended family rational? If you flat out asked them, “If the Fly crew begins to worship in another building on Sunday morning, with another group of God’s beloved elect, would you have problems with that?” If they answer negatively, (which you suspect they would), isn’t that proof enough that you are in a whacked church, possibly a cult?
We were in an unhealthy church a couple of years ago, and it dawned on me one morning that I spent far more time worrying about the people in church than I did worshiping Jesus, and much more time worrying about pleasing horizontally than I did resting vertically, in the Savior.
There are healthy groups of believers. They would like to welcome you into a world that does not revolved around….them! They gather for worship, they meet for the study of God’s word, and then they encourage each other to push back the effects of the fall by loving their community and their neighborhood.
There are many many congregations that are led by a large group of elders, a couple of whom are paid, since they have so much to do (preparation/study for preaching, managing, counseling, teaching, etc.), and can’t have another job, but the vast majority of whom are just men who love God and their church, and GET THIS: were nominated and elected to their offices by the congregation! What a novel idea! Kind of like…..representation! They meet once/twice a month to govern, pray and lead the church, they visit the sick, they anoint with oil and pray for the sick, they fix the toilets, they teach Sunday School….without pay. Imagine!
I am bossy and opinionated, so please take this with a grain of salt: don’t waste any more time. Find (it may take some time) another group of the church where your kids will be allowed to be sinners in need of the present power of Christ, you will be allowed to just….BE. You won’t have massive quatities of Insta-Friends, but you’ll find good friends after awhile. You can sit in the back as long as you need to, just worshiping and being fed without demands. When you are ready, you and your husband can find a place for service–ask one of those unpaid elders, they’ll probably give you some ideas.
I’ll be praying for you.
So much I cannot respond to… Must not divulge identity if I am to ever exit discretely, which is preferable to exiting under “church discipline”, which is the clear (apparently) response of leadership if Fly’s like me do not willingly appear to drink the Kool Aid…
Extended family clearly drinking deeply of the Kool Aid.. nay, they are making the Kool Aid…
Fly,
I never made the Kool Aid, but I dispensed it freely. Even shoved it down a few throats.
There’s hope.
Yeah, they’re force feeding the Kool Aid, and dismembering anyone who won’t drink it…
Praying for you Jim and CG, that a good dialogue will come from this. Lord, give them both clarity…
Folks,
I want to reiterate one point I made over on SGM Survivors: when it comes to owning up, it just aint gonna happen, plain and simple. Does the word “liability” mean anything to anyone? It’d only take an inkling of admission to open the proverbial floodgates, of which it’s quite possible some might take advantage of (eg litigation). I’m not making a judgement on that, just an observation. But my point is that an open apology or admission that something may have gone awry or is out of order places the entire infrastructure of SGM at risk, and as I said before, it just aint gonna happen (IMHO)
onthefence08 saith: “Does the word “liability” mean anything to anyone? It’d only take an inkling of admission to open the proverbial floodgates, of which it’s quite possible some might take advantage of (eg litigation). ”
I think it’s just a matter of time, if SGM doesn’t come forward voluntarily, before someone does initiate a lawsuit. The fact that SGM is forcing all the sheep to sign forms, essentially absolving SGM of any responsibility for anything they say or do, is evidence they’ve pulled up the drawbridge, have double-locked all the doors, and are boiling pots of oil to dump on any attackers.
SGM figures that if they never admit to any wrong, and force everyone to sign papers absolving SGM of any damages, they’ll be safe. But something will happen. Where SGM has closed all the doors, God himself will open a window – and toss in a stone. “Everyone who [voluntarily] falls on that stone will be broken to pieces, but he on whom it falls will be crushed.”
I don’t think God judges Christians in this life – but he does discipline us. Unless they repent and confess their sins of arrogance and pride, SGM leaders are facing some severe discipline from God. I don’t know what it will be, or how it will come. However, that discipline – like the stone falling on someone to crush them – will be far worse than the damage that would be caused by voluntary admissions of wrongdoing. It could even bring the end of the entire ministry.
It will be discipline “as biblically defined.”
“Then suddenly the Lord you are seeking will come to his temple; the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, will come,” says the LORD Almighty. But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears? For he will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap. He will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver; he will purify the Levites and refine them like gold and silver. Then the LORD will have men who will bring offerings in righteousness….”
“For our God is a consuming fire.”
So – to prevent that stone from sailing through the window of Fortress SGM; to prevent the refiner’s fire from blazing throughout the edifice – Isn’t there one single pastor in all the churches who will stand up and admit, in public, that the stories told on these blogs aren’t gossip and slander, but Truth?
Isn’t there one pastor in SGM willing to place his cushy job on the line, for the sake of Truth?
Isn’t there one pastor willing serve as an intercessor for SGM, humbling himself in the dust, repenting on behalf of the ministry, and calling for mercy and forgiveness from the God of the refiner’s fire?
“I looked for a man among them who would…stand before me in the gap on behalf of the land so I would not have to destroy it, but I found none. So I will pour out my wrath on them and consume them with my fiery anger, bringing down on their own heads all they have done, declares the Sovereign LORD.”
“It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.”
”
We have created this blog, 2 years after we left SGC/SGM, after becoming aware that there are many who have experienced the effects of SGM’s authoritarian leadership style. We have heard similar (or worse) stories from people around the country who are in differing stages of detox. The experience has been gut-wrenching.
Our desire is two-fold. To provide a safe haven for those who have left, are considering leaving, or have thought about joining an SGM church. You are safe here, and will receive informed, loving answers to your questions. We want to provide a healing environment for those, who like us, are asking-”why and how did this happen?”, “how do we work though the many issues we are faced with?”, and “where do we go from here?”
”
I would address CG, but she doesn’t listen to anyone and apparently thinks it’s ok to slander everyone who posts here by calling us all bitter liars. This place is supposed to be a refuge from people like her, it hurts every time I read through her posts talking about us who post here like we aren’t worth anything and that everything we and our families went through is meaningless.
How can we heal like this?
Ellie,
Gottcha. That is a concern. Maybe Jim will move the conversation to a different thread. CG’s posts are certainly not helping those who are trying to “move on” from the same old issues. Maybe we should have a “drive-by” thread for those who only hit and run, who aren’t really listening to what is being said. But I’m sure Jim will figure it out. This has to stay a safe place for people.
I think I will begin the transition back to the topic of this htread – moving on….and share some of my latest praise in my journey out of SGM.
It has been an incredible road, one that I will never forget. The Word of God is always first and foremost my “North Pole” in terms of not getting off track. But on those days I get frustrated, or think I am crazy, or dry..it is good ot know there are others out there to encourage me and pray for me. It is a testimony to the TRUE Body of Christ, His Spirit, and the love among the saints that a person terribly hurt within the “church” (SGM) can find love, support and exhortation from others in the Body.
I think often that if I had left SGM and had not had a support system such as this, how much more difficult it would be. Just having you guys here is a constant reminder that the Body is not totally broken – something I forget the more I dwell on the problems in Sovereign Grace Ministries and their leadership. It would be very easy, and was more tempting in the beginning, to just chalk up the spiritual abuse to “all churches suck and I don’t trust anymore anymore, least of all a church”.
I can readily see why so many flock to the Emergent church movement, become agnostic, lost faith altogether, or become bitter and cease the grow in the grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus.
I honestly don’t know what a healthy, functioning Body looks like in terms of the traditional church as seen in history (the buildings, offices, catechisms, etc which are all just religion). But the people, the actual Bride of Christ, individually have shown me that it is possible to function as the Word describes to us the Body should work – each doing his part, building one another up, edifying, loving, and exalting Christ. We are not perfect. But if these are our goals, then even in our imprefections Christ is glorified.
Jim and Carole – I’ll say it again: speaking the truth has always and will always be met with accusations of slander, gossip, heresy, etc. It has always been so by the saints of God who dared to follow Him alone, and defy man’s doctrines, man’s teachings, man’s religion, and man himself. It is a lonely road. But the few on it with you that the Lord allows you to meet along the way will more than encourage you to press on, He is our goal, our vision, and He is more than worth it.
Ellie,
Thanks for speaking up! I should have treated this thread in the same way I treat “Your Story”. I will in the future. If I can move the recent exchanges over to “Concerned?”, I will.
Going back to what *I* wanted to talk about (cuz it’s all about me, right?), way way up in this long column – here’s a link to another funny video of the type that could be made to illustrate illogical/unbiblical SGM stuff. It uses a 3-d sculpture of “life” to help illustrate the various ways we look at the life God’s given us.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xz4uKu_QsZM
Keep-that’s a good video. Way out of my gifting. Let me know when you make one
And what’s wrong with wanting a Corvette? Or a Porsche?
Some folks here may’ve already seen this, but here’s an example of the kind of repentance that former SGMers deserve from abusive leaders, to be able to heal and truly move on. This is written by Barbara, who with her husband was part of the leadership of a highly controlling church – until they escaped. As “The Person Formerly Known As Your Leader,” she’s typed-out a confessional, repentant letter to the people she hurt.
Here’s one of her many confessions:
“I taught you that with leaders, you did not have the right to expect friendship or any sort of loyalty back. I told you that you should become what I had become, completely a servant. They owed you and me nothing. I have learned to watch out for ‘friendships’ where I am the servant only. I have learned my ‘servanthood’ was nothing more than trying to manipulate myself into prominence.”
Read the rest here: http://snurl.com/3qxzb [retrofited_blogspot_com]
“I think it’s just a matter of time, if SGM doesn’t come forward voluntarily, before someone does initiate a lawsuit. The fact that SGM is forcing all the sheep to sign forms, essentially absolving SGM of any responsibility for anything they say or do, is evidence they’ve pulled up the drawbridge, have double-locked all the doors, and are boiling pots of oil to dump on any attackers. ”
I am dying to know if such a document would hold up in court. Does anyone have a copy of it or knows what it says? I have a close friend who is an attorney who would probably have a gander over it to see if it’s even legally plausible for anyone to use to protect themselves in court.
Stunned-you can download it on this page:
http://www.covlife.org/ministries/starting_point
don’t other churches have you sign forms of membership as well? all it’s saying is that you agree with what the church believes… at least i think it does. maybe i’ll have to go back and read it again.
and practically speaking, becoming a member simply helps keep order in the church. in larger churches, you can’t have just anybody serving in childrens ministry. someone has to make sure they aren’t lunatics.
also it’s helpful for pastors so they make sure everyone is being cared for.
I don’t understand the big deal with signing a form.
I can shout in from the PCA–in the three churches we have joined over the last twenty years, membership did not consist of signing anything. However, membership is required in all three of them in order to teach or work with kids.
Usually, the process is to take a membership class, two-three meetings, led by one of the elders, which serves to explain the doctrines of the church.
Then, each member meets with two elders, who hear his/her testimony and get to know his/her story. If there is the suspicion that the potential member is not a believer in Jesus, that will be addressed at that time.
If a member decides to leave, the church to which he next applies, (regardless of denomination), contacts this last church, for transfer of membership. This is usually straightforward.
We have never have to sign anything saying that we will attend morning services and small groups, or that if we leave the city, we will join a like-minded church in the new city. I get the feeling there is the implication that a member will never make a church membership move within the same locale, in the CLC membership contract.
I have a dear friend struggling over leaving her ‘local church,’ (SGM), who thinks she is going to ‘get in trouble.’ So very sad. Those Baptists across the street from the ‘local church,’ with the little old pastor and his wife, are the beloved Bride of Christ. So is that Bible Church down the road, us Presbyterians across town, and a whole host of beloved saints meeting in buildings all over your town, each lifting up the name of Jesus.
To imply that one group is superior to another REALLY gives away a skewed view of the Body of Christ.
Come breathe the free air.
Once again, well said RT.
Wow…I just got caught up.
I have to say, it hurts my heart to see someone so vehemently defending a man (or men) and distorting the truth to do so when people are being hurt by this man (or men). And it seems like such a clear cut example of idolatry. Loyalty gone wrong is scary to me.
I look at my family now and we are very nearly “whole” again. But, not completely. I still have an adult child who is hypnotized by the SGM trance. I must admit, I find it hard not to feel anger well up in me when someone comes along with such a “oh sure, you’re just making this up” mentality. Do we have to experience something ourselves before we can believe it? Do I have to get hit by a car before I know the damage it does to the human body? Just once, I’d like to hear someone from SGM say …”I believe you, it’s wrong, I’ll stand by you and help you heal.” Why does that never happen?
Hi IGO! Welcome back!
You said: “Just once, I’d like to hear someone from SGM say …”I believe you, it’s wrong, I’ll stand by you and help you heal.” Why does that never happen? ”
I think we are starting to see this happen… our co-host, Protestant Knight, is an amazing example of this, as he is still involved in his SGM church, but sees the problems within it’s leadership. And, not only does he see it, but he is speaking out on The Refuge, seeking reform for the church he loves. Through his words and his actions, he is standing by us, helping us heal, validating our experiences, and loving us and caring for us, while still loving SGM.
Because of PK and his wife, and others who comment here that are still in an SGM church (not CG and others of her ilk), I am filled with even greater hope and faith in God that reform will take place.
I hope you are, too!
Greetings!
I have decided to end my time here (although it was very short). I think this site can be good for some people – but I am not one of them. I do respect what you are doing and I wish all of you well. I will continue to pray for SGM to have a change of heart. Kind regards and take care.
Butterfly,
I highly respect your desire to guard your heart.
You will be missed.
Jim,
Thank you that really means alot to me. I want everyone to know that it is not because of anyone here that I am signing off. God has given me a lot of healing from what happened at SGM and so for me being here is not healing but stirs up unneccessary emotion. I do really respect what Jim and PK are doing. I think there is a godly purpose for you in being here. But for me it is more curiousity than anything and I don’t see that being a good motive. I will still be checking in on Spriritual Tyranny. That is more my speed and would save me time by going to just one site and being there is not emotional for me although it often gives me a great laugh and helps me see things more clearly. I have only about one hour of free time a day and spending it here has meant less time with God. I do also want to guard my heart and tame my tongue and sometimes the easiest way to do that is to talk less! I do want all to know I have nothing but respect and love for what you are doing and I do hope that SGM ears begin to do more than “listen” and try to make you go away but that they “hear” and change.
Peace and Love,
BFLy
Butterfly:
Go with God, and may He bless you and keep you and make His face to shine upon you. I hope our exchanges haven’t contributed to this… please forgive me for that.
You will be missed.
…pk
PK,
None of the exchanges from anyone here weigh in on my decision and I don’t want anyone to think so, esp. Jim, Concerned, & yourself. I would not leave over any minor disagreement but would stay if staying was God’s best for me. It truly is for the reasons I described above. I think this site will be really helpful for those just leaving or that still want to talk about it. I think for me being several years free – It is just time to move forward with the new thing God is doing in my life. I have nothing but respect for each person here.
Thank you for your blessing!
Peace & Love,
BFly
I will sure miss you here, Butterfly, but I am glad you are going to be checking in at Spiritual Tyranny!
Don’t want to not “see” you again! If you want, you can get my email from Jim.
{{{{{{{{{{{{ BF}}}}}}}}}}}}}
Butterfly,
We’ll miss you!
Butterfly,
I wish you well and many blessings and adventures.
Aahhh! This weekend I had one of those rare moments when the light bulb clicks (okay, I’m told I’m not the brightest bulb in the pack) and I realize something that many of you probably already know. First I must recap a bit. As some of you know we are still “on the fence” as we are looking to cut ourselves free from our SG church (visiting other churches, etc.). Well, for the past month or so I’ve felt uneasy about not bringing my offering (some call it tithe) to our local church given our current status (ie, one foot out the door). This has resulted in some angst over my not being in compliance with what I’ve been taught as one of those incontravertible facts of Christendom, meaning bringing the whole tithe into the [SG church] storehouse. BUT, lo and behold while I’ve not been “tithing” for close to a month now, THE BOTTOM HASN’T DROPPED OUT IN OUR FINANCES! (and no, I don’t think we’re responsible for the Wall St. mess either). This being said please understand one thing; I’m in no way pushing aside God’s command to give, to support our local church, to support the laborer worthy of his wage, etc. etc. I very much believe and support that, have always believed this and am looking forward to doing so once more with a whole heart. But I’ve discovered that my heavenly Father isn’t up there looking down at me in utter disdain because I haven’t been tithing, and that there is no man in a black hood with my neck in the Guillotine ready to pull the lever because I’ve “robbed God”. I believe our Father understands my plight, and better yet understands my heart even more than I do (what a comfort!) I’ve also recently put two and two together on something I’ve been taught these many years, particularly at the teaching of Professor Purswell. “Right doctrine leads to right thinking which leads to right living”. Sounds good, right? (pun intended). Well that works fine except for the propensity that leads us to “wrong” legalism. Allow me to explain. There’s absolutely nothing, and I mean nothing wrong with right doctrine. That’s God’s gift to us, although what’s considered “right” is primarily based on exegetical skill and interpretation. Let’s assume for this discussion that SGM promotes “right” doctrine. The problem comes when we live in an environment that continuously evaluates our “right living” as a barometer of our “right thinking” and hence “right doctrine”. Confusing? Absolutely! But here’s the point: our living in a perpetual state of evaluation often (as in this case) leads to the utmost form of legalism, and as Philip Yancey put’s it, ungrace. So to wrap up this slight rant, I refuse to cowed under the mighty arm of legalism and the ensuing guilt and I choose to live under grace. And I’m anxious (in a good way) to see what God has for our family in the coming weeks as we continue to visit other local expressions of the body of Christ in hopes of finding our place.
OTF-
You said:
But here’s the point: our living in a perpetual state of evaluation often (as in this case) leads to the utmost form of legalism, and as Philip Yancey put’s it, ungrace. So to wrap up this slight rant, I refuse to cowed under the mighty arm of legalism and the ensuing guilt and I choose to live under grace.
Excellent!
BTW, as a New Testament Christian, you are under no Biblical command to tithe. ZERO. Look it up
“…living in a perpetual state of evaluation…”
WOW…that’s what it’s like!
GREAT post, otf!!
What Jim said.
In fact, operating out of fear of (fill in the blank here, but fear of something,) is a big red flag for me.
Coersion to tithe using fear of financial ruin (tithe to the church or tithe to the repair man,) is bondage, nothing less.
Part of the reason I struggled, so much when I left SG after a gazillion years, was that so many trusted leaders told me “GOD WILL OPPOSE EVERYTHING YOU DO” It it soooo freeing to really believe that God loves me and cares deeply about what I just experienced. He is walking me through.
“Right doctrine leads to right thinking which leads to right living”.
Wow, what CRAZY thinking. You see, in spite of what I think of do, I still don’t live right! I still… drum roll please… sin. How could anyone think that “right thinking” (hmm, anyone else think “right thinking” sounds rather Third Reich-ish or Stalinistic?)… where was I? Yes… how could anyone think that “right thinking” could do a greater work in our lives than the Holy Spirit could? I mean, even the Holy Spirit, living and breathing in me can’t make me perfect or even “live right” a large portion of my day.
I thought SGM taught that we are all sinners and everything we do is shot through with sin. How, therefore, is there any hope of right living merely because we have “right thinking”? Seems contrary to what their theology. So is their theology that no man is good and we all sin all day correct or is their thinking that right thinking can get us to live right correct? Seems a quandry to me.
It would seem to go against the Calvinistic theology.
But its so darn tempting to teach a concept like right thinking when *you* get to tell everyone what constitutes right thinking. Such power, its almost aphrodisiatic.
And one can see how it can extend its talons to grip people like Charlie that are trying to breath in the fresh air of freedom and bask in the sunshine of grace.
Based upon the issue of polity alone, we at Sovereign Grace Ministries cannot even begin to broach the claim of right doctrine, even by a mile.
This is a false statement (obviously, I know) as God is constantly shaping us on that potter’s wheel the duration of our lives. Rather than Purswell or anyone else going for the absolutist throat on this, it might be better phrased as:
This phrase would square pretty securely with scripture; of important note is that this contributes absolute zero to our salvation. Try handing God a volume of your “right doctrine” on Judgment Day and let me know how it works out for you. When statements about doctrine in this sense are proclaimed so heavy-handedly, it sort of defeats the “Christ and Him Crucified” motif of our theology, in my opinion.
Thank God that no matter how many pages of Systematic Theology I memorize, it will be the forgiveness of my sins and the imputation of Christ’s righteousness onto me that saves me. Other things that will NOT save your soul: an acceptable grimace during singing hymns; your audio collection of sermons; your unabridged volumes of Spurgeon’s works; riding the coattails of your family’s faith, etc.
And if we’re going to beat the “rewards” dog to death, I think it best to let God determine your rewards, and not Jeff Purswell or anyone else.
I don’t think we ever “arrive” at the purest form of anything (short of glimpsing Christ) as far as scripture is concerned. Many will interpret this as a just-keep-tryin’ defeatist line of reasoning, and my only response is to that is ‘time to get over yourself’.
…pk
The problem with Jeff’s little saying, is that it does not define right doctrine and the such. If he means knowing about right doctrine, James makes it clear that even the demons are monotheistic.
I remember the day it hit me, that there was more than just “right doctrine”… it was the day a close family friend (Who was a Calvinist and would give his testimony using TULIP as his framing narrative) was arrested and convicted of armed robbery and sexual assault. He knew all the lingo and doctrines and knew how to joke about Arminians-but it sure didn’t add up to a hill of beans the day he chose to shrug off his “right doctrine” and chose to rob and rape his neighbor instead of love them and trust God for supporting his material needs. It has to be more than just having an airtight theology…it must lead us to faith expressing itself in love. Otherwise it’s useless…
Don’t get me wrong, I think Jesus loves it when we get our theology right. But only if it leads us back to him and the life he’s gained for us thru the cross and resurrection.
Musicman,
Your post reminds me of the horrible statistic that a disproportioinally large number of sexual criminals are deeply religious folks. No, I’m not picking on the Catholic church here. This crosses all denominational lines and deals with very sincere Christians.
Yours and PK’s above statements are correct.. It’s about Jesus, His work, not us and anything we could possibly do. We are fallen, yet created in the very image of God himself. As if I will ever be able to figure that one out.
Stunned
but still forgiven and loved- how amazing is that?
TooFunny,
Obviously no one witnessed your cruelty, but it seems that you’re the one who needs to get a life.
Or maybe a heart.
Blogs make cowards feel manly, don’t they? Enjoy your “life”.
Jim, you are a tough act to follow, but at the risk of detracting from your last comment, I’m going to return to OTF’s comments about tithing.
Having been in a few SGM churches under several different pastors over the years, I have an interesting observation:
One pastor would notice one of his flock “straying,” and would immediately check the church records for that sheep’s giving patterns. And as I recall he would periodically peruse everyone’s giving records just to check the pulse on various people’s commitment, because the dropoff of giving would be the “first indicator” of straying.
Then we had another pastor who told us once that he never looked at the giving records, and emphatically stated that he did NOT want to see them ever. Although he never spelled it out, I connected the dots (in my mind at least) this way: that he didn’t want to judge any member for their lack of giving, nor think too highly of a member for their generous giving. Now maybe some would say that’s irresponsible and naive, but after the experience with the above-mentioned micro-managing pastor, I found it very refreshing.
My point is: both these pastors were in SGM churches. I’m not sure there’s any blueprint for “How to Behave with the Giving Records” in the Sr. Pastoral Handbook, but it’s obvious that each man is going to be different….in a variety of areas.
Men, at their best, are still just men after all. I’m sure that’s a quote by some wonderful Old Dead Guy, but I can’t seem to remember whom. Oh, perhaps the Knight will know!
Good night all,
PD
Well,
“They tried to convince me that “I” – “we” should set up direct deposit for tithing, because it was easier for ones SP wife to do the book keeping…..along those lines I always did wonder how a church so small in numbers had so many electronic gadgets and did not have enough money for simple ministry. I don’t think think the sheep are as “dumb” as one SP would like to think… that is my 2 mites worth…..
I hope I’m not being too premature in my optimism here, but today I called a local church that we plan on attending and I was so absolutely blown away by what I learned in the 30 minute conversation I had with one of the Pastors and I just have to share it with you all, my friends. Although my wife was smart enough to recognize the hand of God here (I told you earlier, I’m not the brightest bulb in the pack
), just about every, and I mean EVERY topic of interest I threw at him (tithing, church polity, small groups, worship style, PASTORAL ACCOUNTABILITY, etc. etc., aligned so precisely with where we want to be, well, it’s just scary. I texted my wife later in the day and said it almost brought tears to my eyes. Now, we haven’t yet attended but are planning on doing so very soon, and we’re oh so hopeful that this will be our new church home where we can both serve and be served. We’re actually EXCITED about church now! Please pray for us as we set out on what I hope to be a very short journey of finding our place in the body of Christ. And please pray that we will find godly wisdom tempered with humility as we prepare to inform our Pastor (by email) and our CG leader at our next CG meeting. Note I said “inform”. I’m not going there begging to be “released” as though we were dogs on a leash (don’t go there folks, although I know it’s tempting). It’s going to be a simple “we’re movin on” type of email, but I do want to be gracious in consideration of the fact that we have received much over the years during our membership, and it would be sinfully ungrateful to “throw out the baby with the bath water”. Anyway, just wanted you all to know to and to say “thanks” for being there.
OTF,
What wonderful news! We are rejoicing with you, not just because you are leaving SGM, but because you have (potentially) found a place to worship and serve. What a blessing to be excited about church again. We’ll be in prayer for the transition.
On the,
Please tell us how it goes. I am praying for you and your family. It is exciting to hear how you will continue to be used in the body of Christ.
OTF,
Breathe the free air, my brother!
I remember waking up on Sundays, right after leaving an abusive church, and being surprised that my mind was on Jesus and that I was looking forward to worshiping him without worrying about horizontal stuff.
I never can figure how and why abusive churches get us to believe that they have some sort of power over their members and where we meet together for corporate worship.
One does not have to be released from the church. How ridiculous! You are not leaving the church, just parking your car in front of another gathering of the same church. The only way one could, as a believer, leave the church (understand my affection for the flowery ”P”), is to wake up one Sunday morning ‘absent from the body, but present with the Lord.’ That is even a paltry example…since the Bride will eventually be all gathered together anyway.
Welcome to freedom! Please drop a note to tell the next part of the story!
OTF08:
Praise God! That conversation with the pastor sounds exciting. I will be praying for you and your family. God is wonderful.
PD:
Very interesting story about radically different pastors in regard to the tithe. If only all of them could be like the latter one.
…pk
OTF,
Cool! You are no longer “on the fence”! You’ll have to change your name. It will be wondeful to hear of your experiences in the next few weeks.
Canary,
True enough, OTF08 WILL change, but only after we’ve confirmed where God wants us to be, and oh how we look forward to that day! I’m thinking “OnSolidGround”, what do you think?
OTF
…whether one leave or stays, if they are following God, I’m happy…
just keep the gravatar
Word, Jim, Word!
OTF,
Yes, I love the gravatar. Keep it! I like OnSolidGround, too. Or, NoKoolAidServedHere. Hee-hee.
That’s a mouthfull.
OTF, don’t forget – you were on solid ground all along, even when you WERE on the fence!
that is God’s grace towards us, even when we face trials and confusion, in retrospect we see He is always faithful.
Personally, I long to be in a position spiritually where I thank Him IN ADVANCE for the trials and hard times I know will bring Him glory – not only afterwards when I know it all work out in the end.
Juli said,
Personally, I long to be in a position spiritually where I thank Him IN ADVANCE for the trials and hard times I know will bring Him glory – not only afterwards when I know it all work out in the end.
Me too. Haven’t gotten there, yet. However, I have learned to resist fear when things get hairy. But we’re growing in God! That’s so exciting! You, especially. You just aren’t the same person you were a few months ago. You inspire me!
Hi all.
Well, a few weeks ago we finally made the break, left our SG church and have since begun worshipping and fellowshipping in another local church. Yes, many of you know me by another name on both this and the SGM Survivors blog, but out of fear of retribution or other potential repurcussions I’m not comfortable just yet in making the public crossover. Nevertheless, I want to tell you all that we’re happy and blessed to be where God has placed us, and I couldn’t in my wildest imagination believe that we could have been sovereignly (no pun intended) planted in the new small group such as we’re in! Real people, with real stories, and we didn’t even share our sin! We chatted, shared stories, prayed for various needs, ate great snacks, and just simply got to know one another. Breathe the fresh air! But here’s the kicker; upon leaving the church I posted (snail mail) a letter to our Pastor informing him of our intent to terminate our membership along with a few nondescript details but that I was open to further discussion should he desire more information. That was that. Since then we’ve not gotten ONE (and I mean one) single contact from ANYONE from the church regarding our exit. No emails, no form letters, no Pastoral calls, not even a secretary asking about a forwarding address! In fact, the only confirmation I DID get was that our access to the “Members only” (isn’t that a clothing line at Target?) section on the church website was, DELETED! I admit this is probably too good to be true considering many of the stories posted on these blogs, but nothing? I mean c’mon folks, whatever happened to common courtesy (“we’re sorry to see you go” or “do you have any observations for us?”. (LOL) Has the pendulum swung so completely in the opposite direction now? We’re still slightly stunned, but in a good way. So there you have it friends, the ultimate “under the radar” exit.
Deleted,
Actually, it would be great if you get “out” under the radar. I would be suprised if people don’t begin calling to ask where you are. I’m so glad you found a great church where you can worship in freedom. Enjoy the fresh air and surround yourself with the Lord’s grace. Though you’ve been “deleted” from SGM, you’ve now “entered” into a season of great joy as you enjoy the Lord (okay, bad computer pun). God’s grace is so amazing. Who can not help but love Him??!! We all stand with you.
Deleted:
Praise God that you and your fam are thriving.
Christ is sufficient!
…pk
Breathe the free air, my friend.
Perhaps your post may cause others under the radar to demand that the doors at SGM be thrown open, that a fresh wind would flow! I certainly sense that is PK’s and Jim’s call to them! Wouldn’t it be wonderful.
I was wondering what happened to you, Deleted!! (good name, btw)
I am glad to hear that you’ve found a good church and are enjoying getting to know other brothers and sisters in the Lord.
Enjoy your flight under the SGM radar.
I’m glad you found a nice church to attend.
Deleted, may God’s grace and the liberty you have in Christ cause your love for others to abound. May His face always be before you, and may you follow the ancient paths that lead to life and liberty, (and, incidentally might I add- the pursuit of happiness!)
Our Father’s blessings to you and your family
DB,
Is that you in the picture????
Greetings, everyone, from the Fly.
Fly is buzzing through to let everyone know that Fly has flown. Fly and the fly-mate have flown to a new, grace-filled gathering of fellow believers where the Fly-couple, and the little Flys, are all happily settling in.
~Fly
Fly – good to hear you have moved on as well – wow, I am encouraged. Everyone seems to be finding a new church home…I recently felt like the Lord was telling me it was time to begin seriously praying about it again – I’ve taken a break from looking and visiting, and now I think I will search again. thanks for the words of encouragement guys..
Juli,
That’s great! I know the Lord will lead you to a body of believers that will be just right for you.
Fly,
I’m so glad that the Lord guided you and your family to a place of grace. Enjoy your freedom in Christ. May the Lord’s goodness surround you!
Yes, Canary, an aerial shot, so to speak.
That’s so great, Fly!!
Now that we are in the process of leaving, we don’t know where to look for another church. We’ve lived in the Towson/ Baltimore area for years so we are familiar with a lot of churches. We just don’t see any good youth ministries within the churches. Maybe we are too picky after micromanaging our teen and young adult. We visited a wonderful church way out in the Aberdeen/Belair area. It takes about 45 minutes to get there. The problem we have seen with the churches near us, range from watered down doctrine and teaching, to women pastors, to teen groups where there is no accountability, to very apathetic youth. Anyone have any suggestions? If you don’t want to endorse any church publicly would you please get my email from Carol or Jim or pk? I’m so confused about looking. I even went on a forum and blog search for anyone excited about their chuch around here-even the Shepherd’s Guide. There was one chuch called Journey that seems to be planting a church in our area. I got excited and looked deeper. Then I saw it-recommended books by CJ,sgm music,etc. Oh well. .
Anxious:
Try pcanet.org and this link to Maryland churches in the PCA.
https://processor.pcanet.org/ac/directory/directory.cfm
formersgmer-thanks.
Hello Friends, I actually requested this category, so please pardon me for not posting to it sooner. As some of you may remember, I was happily part of CLC for many years and part of ministry teams and CG leadership until I fell into disagreement with leadership over several issues including a lack of (real) missions efforts, the process for installing and removing leaders, sloppy doctrine, and my own dismissal as a CG leader. My series of meetings with pastors lasted 9 months and ended well from an administrative stand point. They finally repented of abusive behavior, and I agreed to move on to a more suitable church. However, the process was so drawn out and damaging that 13 years later I was still hurt and essentially spiritually disabled. Only in the past year have I been able to say that I’ve moved on by the love of God and care from the Body of Christ.
So, here are some ideas on what I went through. I hope they are helpful.
Grieving
1. Denial – this is not happening to me. It only happens to “problem” people. I’ve been so devoted.
2. Anger – this where you try to fight leadership and express your hurt and outrage, thinking they are reasonable, compassionate, and will validate you. They will not.
3. Bargaining – you think you can repair the situation or change the leaders, policy, or doctrine. You may even try to negotiate terms under which you can stay. You cannot. Once SGM pastors remove you from a position, accuse you of sin, or start suggesting that you find another church, you are done. Someone please prove me wrong.
4. Depression – real, disabling, and even life threatening depression can set in. You question your faith, any form of organized church, even the worth of you own soul. You may feel that you have lost your joy, your calling, your faith, even your will to live. The cause of this is the tendency of leadership is to turn a disagreement over an issue to an attack on your very person. The intent is to disable you so you won’t cause problems.
5. Acceptance – yes it really did happen. It may take a while to realize the full extent of who hurt you and what they did, but this is critical. Yes, they were people you loved and admired, and yes, what they did was wrong. You may have lost friends or the sense of community and purpose you loved so much. Have hope, God can and will restore this.
Obviously, these are the standard stages of grieving a la SGM. Several friends have described leaving SGM as a death or a divorce. I think it is in a very real sense. For many ex-SGMers, the depth of grieving is that profound. I had to allow myself the time and space to go through the grieving process.
Recovery
Several of my friends have struggled as I did with life after SGM. Here is a beginning list of ideas on how to recover, In Christ, all that was taken away from you by spiritual abuse. Please contribute your own ideas.
1. Tell your story – This is really key to recovery. I recommend telling your story over and over in full detail to few mature, objective, and trusted Christians. When you get that stunned look like, “They did what?” you begin to finally realize the extent of abnormal behavior at SGM. No detail is too small, no wound to minor that it does not need to be healed. One of my biggest mistakes over many years was trying to be brave and not admitting to myself how often and how deeply I was hurt. In a manipulative environment, subtle tactics like offhand comments or withholding of support can wound as gravely as open abuse. Don’t be surprises if you have to share your story in many different ways until you get it all out and are completely healed. My hope and prayer is that we all receive the compassion from the Body or Christ that we sought from the beginning.
2. Admit your faults – you may have contributed to the problem with your attitudes or actions. This may range from depending too much on the acceptance of others, to idolizing leaders, to angry reactions and trying to get back at those that hurt you, or holding onto resentment for many years. In no way can you ever do or say anything that justifies abuse, but the goal of self examination is to keep a clear conscience before the Lord.
3. Forgive – this can often be a ongoing and even daily process until you feel no pain or anger towards those that hurt you. There are many good books on forgiveness, maybe someone can recommend some resources.
4. Keep yourself in the love of God – stay close to your loving Father in prayer, bible study and other devotions. Stay in fellowship with other believers. It may take a while to find a church or ministry where you are loved and can function as designed, but it will happen because God is faithful to His purpose for you.
5. Healing – related to the four points above is prayer for healing. I recommend that any time you share your story, don’t leave with an open wound. Extend and ask for forgiveness and have your friends lay hands on you and pray for emotional healing. I can’t tell you how much this has helped me and restored my faith in the Body of Christ.
6. Where was I? – at some point your hopes and dreams were crushed. Dust off those youthful dreams of serving Jesus. Every dream, gift, ability, and calling God ever spoke to you is just as valid as it ever was. Nothing heals the pain of personal disappointment like the excitement of sharing the gospel and serving others. I had to go back to goals I had 15 years ago and start pursuing them again.
7. Recover your identity in Christ – you are who God says you are, not what others say about you. Renounce any curses spoken against you (you’re rebellious, you’re not called etc.) and confess scripture over yourself. As time goes on and you begin to function in a healthy way in church, you will find that your unique personality and gifts are useful and appreciated and that you are who you thought you were.
Personal note
I’ve been in a great church for the last 3 ½ years, and I’m happy to say that I have received an abundance of grace and mercy. It is possible to find a church with balanced doctrine, a sincere care for others, no desire to control others, and an open format for doing ministry. I had to move cross country to find it, but it was one of the best decisions I ever made. I can finally talk about my experience at SGM without pain and recognize all the love I received there along with trials. I’ve been able to keep a few close friends from SGM. I am aware of both the strengths and weaknesses of the SGM. Finally, I am headed to the Middle East this summer on a short term missions trip. I have an interview on Sunday to see if they want me to lead the team. Yeah God!
GregC,
Thank you for sharing that. I’m going to save what you wrote.
I think I’m stuck in 4. Depression, of Grieving, with still some bouncebacks to 1. Denial.
Your words about, “this is not happening to me. It only happens to “problem” people. I’ve been so devoted,” are so true. I kept thinking at the time, and still think, I can’t believe this. The process was so disproportionate it seemed. The kind of stuff you think would be done if there was open and flagrant rebellion against God.
Your words, “Here is a beginning list of ideas on how to recover, In Christ, all that was taken away from you by spiritual abuse,” also really hit home. I so long to see that.
“In a manipulative environment, subtle tactics like offhand comments or withholding of support can wound as gravely as open abuse,” is also helpful, because it’s true.
Thank you again.
I am so glad to hear you’re doing so well. It gives hope.
Thanks GregC
That really helps.
It’s funny–it is always happening to the problem people.
Then, one day, you become a problem person.
But no one wants to come alongside you. why? Because you are, obviously, a problem person!
Blecck.
GregC,
Your posts are concise, practical resources for those who are currently living where you have already lived. God bless you on your upcoming mission trip!
Anxious,
Been thinking about you and notw. How are you doing?
Hi Gracie,
We’re hanging in there. My daughter is still blogging about all the sgm problems and getting some interesting responses. I’m sure she will comment as things happen. I think we are at #4( not to the extent of being life threatening) in GregC’s first post. I know things will get better but it seems so hard right now.
Thank you, GregC. Those are important steps to consider.
Wow, thanks GregC! I have to agree that I probably fit in 4 right now for the grieving stage and I’m trying to figure out how to get back to 6 for the recovery. I have felt God very specifically calling and molding me to serve yet this past year have been drained of everything. I hope I can start dreaming and moving forward again soon!
Greg, awesome steps! I totally agree, very helpful to others. I love “steps” and things to do- one of the reasons I made an excellent legalist!
Seriously though, these are very helpful to those thinking of leaving, just leaving, whatever stage.
Can I add just two things for those who might be finding yourself just going through these for the first time? (and btw, I’m still going through this, but I’ve grwon much more familiar with the steps since I keep revisiting them in the healing process!)
First, these steps are not always sequential. You can move in and out of steps, back and forth, many times..this is normal. It is not like you go step 1,2,3, etc and you are done. If you find yourself slipping in and out of various stages, take heart- you are STILL healing…there are not steps backwards, you are still moving forward even if it FEELS like backwards, once you recognize the problem, you’ve already begun the healing process.
Secondly, I would add Relief as a step. This can occur immediately after you 1)find out about the blogs or the “big picture” and don’t feel alone or insane anymore and/or 2) when you leave your church or are asked to leave
The overwhelming feeling of relief also is something that changes…I still have relief, but it isn’t the same as the first day. It has matured into a deeper joy now. But initially, that relief should be embraced, enjoyed, and if you start to “lose it” don’t freak out. That’s normal too. Sometimes when you’ve been in an abusive situation, you get numb, and then when the emotions and feelings start coming back, they come back ten-fold, and it can be overwhelming. Normal. So just recognize that and cut yourself some slack.
Some days are very emotional, and not the “feel good” kind of emotions like relief and joy. Some days the fear, depression, anger, etc settle in. Don’t panic. Take one day at a time. And don’t beat yourself up if you have an angry day every now and then..esp if you come on the blogs and you’re bent out of shape and it comes out on here, most of us will understand why. Just having an angry day! I’ve recently been learning this one again…I have angry days and think I’m falling backwards, but that is a lie, it is still moving forwards..I just have to work through it with God’s grace.
A person in AA would say “Work the Program” (I think is the terminology), even when things get tough. In our case, we need to “Stay Tight With Jesus” when it gets tough. Focus on spending time in His Word, listening for His voice and learning to hear Him again, then reach out to others, keep talking about things, don’t isolate yourself, and PRAY PRAY PRAY. He will see you through and use others in the Body to help you! (this last part is also His way of reassuring you that not EVERYONE in the Body will hurt you…as RT always says, the Body of Christ is bigger than just SGM, it is time for SGMers to realize that for themselves.)
Remember the ol’ train with Faith as the engine, and feelings as the caboose? Don’t put our caboose up front…our feelings may seem to be out of wack, but get your faith in line and the feelings will follow, eventually. Do what you know God’s Word tells you to do. Listen to His voice. Don’t get distracted with feelings, acknowledge them, but don’t let them rule you or determine your mindset. Faith should determine feelings, not our feelings determining our faith. But many of us have powerfully strong feelings to deal with, so it is hard to remember that, but we must. If we don’t, we will stumble as we allow our feelings that are largely not based on truth to determine our actions (not based on truth since we’ve been under much manipulation and deception)
I would have been blessed by some exit counciling, I think.
Greg’s advice rings true to me.
I hope people in this wave of turmoil will receive the help they need as they chose to leave SGM churches. The process is much more daunting than people imagine.
GregC – just the ticket!
I’m so glad I accidentally clicked on this section.
God moved dramatically on my behalf when we left PDI ten or so years ago. I want to point out several people who were helpful and encouraging to me since the church I came out of is in crisis right now in Jan. 2009:
Cathy Tull – I found her in the hallway of another church I was visiting soon after we left — she was holding a woman in her arms who had recently left SG Chesapeake (back when it was Southside) as she wept uncontrollably. Cathy was there for me as well and was a soldier on the frontlines when it came to taking us under her protective wing and helping us all through. Anyone in Chesapeake who needs affirmation, counsel, and comfort should definitely consider contacting her. She attends Greenbrier Church, I think. Not sure.
My pastor and elders at the Ches. Vineyard — Oscar Richardson, Elston Brown (who prayed tirelessly for healing for me for many, many years whenever I asked), Steve Elliott, Joel Andre. And their wives and also just about everyone at that church. To say they loved me back to life would not be an overstatement. They literally enveloped me with the love of Jesus, no questions asked. The refreshing that came as a result was unbelievable. This is a small fellowship of believers and their church has a reputation for being like a hospital. I see why. They are not like other Vineyards, so don’t expect it to be beachy and Vineyard-like. You’ll hear shofars and Hebrew blessings and lots of time for worship and prayer ministry at the end of the service.
Now that I’ve outed my favorite people in the entire world…
My restoration came in spurts. There were moments where I’d see someone at a yard sale or WalMart and avert my eyes, take my cart elsewhere, run away. I’d go home and cry. There were other times I’d walk up to them and chat for a minute about whatever — the weather, our children. Then I’d go home and cry. They always said, “We’ll have to get together sometime!” I knew they would never call or even return my calls. It was especially tough because they all lived within a mile or two of my house. My children missed their children and asked about them often. They still do.
Then after a few years of involvement in a new church and freedom in Christ, I finally felt free of the shame and able to speak to them on the street once more. Now, I found I had a fresh compassion for them. They were beginning to look haggard and worn like I used to and I felt sad for the bondage they were in. My heart began to break for them as it should have at first but couldn’t. I started to pray.
We moved to a different state after that. My husband faced two different seven month stints of unemployment because the company he worked for in Virginia was sold and everyone laid off. It was hard. I began to lose my footing and started feeling the shame issues again. I was thankful to be in another town (Nashville) where I wouldn’t run into any of them in my vulnerable condition. His new job was in Charlotte, NC. We moved again and got back on our feet.
A few years later, fast forwarding to 2008, something began stirring. I ran into a woman who had joined my homeschool group who went to a SG church here in town. I had told her up front several years earlier when we first moved here that I had issues with her church. She said it was probably just immaturity on the part of those people who had hurt me and said her church was not like that. (Crossway. It is — but to talk about that would be a huge digression.) I ran into her a few years later (back to 2008) and she looked different. Her eyes were brighter and she looked younger. I’m not kidding! I apologized for acting so strange about her church when I first met her, and she told me she doesn’t go there anymore, that I had been right, and she led me to these two websites.
After reading here and at Survivors, I cried so much! Tears of relief and joy and thankfulness to God. I was then (only then — ten years later!) able to fully forgive those who had hurt me. Now here’s the miraculous part. Almost immediately — within three days of my forgiving everyone by name — my daughter discovered our former pastor’s daughter was on Facebook and her town was listed as Charlotte. She said, “Mom, I think she lives here now!” Sure enough. Our former pastor in Chesapeake is now in my town. I prayed, called her, and we were reconciled. We prayed together on the phone, both crying. Now, this is only possible with God. And He had a special, perfect moment in time prepared for it. That moment was after I had fully forgiven these people! Isn’t that fantastic? It gets better. I got on Facebook and found our former Care Group leader’s wife. We were reconciled, too!
Fast forward less than a month and our family is visiting Virginia (Nov. ’08). We’re invited over to a friend’s house from SG. With no hesitation (don’t have any now that all is forgiven) I accept. And more reconciliation results!
Suddenly and quite surprisingly, we are now reconciled with the pastor, the Care Group leaders, and several of our former Care Group members.
All within one month’s time!
I don’t understand all the hows and whys of God’s plan, but I can tell you that He is working within and without SGM. He wants to, if only people will listen, shore up the doctrine, bless the communities, and deliver those who will let Him from the bondage to false doctrine they previously endured. It’s all possible because all is possible with God.
Reconciling with people doesn’t mean you suddenly agree with their doctrine. It means all is forgiven. You are now working side by side to bring Him glory in all you do. It’s really been an exciting journey for me. I constantly look at the details of how this all worked itself out — from us leaving the town we moved to after we left Virginia (Nashville) and coming to Charlotte and our former pastors also moving to Charlotte — and just shake my head at the goodness of God.
And by the way, the only way I was able to forgive was because He ENABLED me to.
I see this website and the survivors site as VITAL components in my healing and ability to forgive. My friends Elaine and Vince and Monica and others have helped bring validation and understanding, but it was God who ordered the steps that brought me here. Are there others who aren’t yet reconciled to me? Sure! But I am so encouraged!
I have to out a couple more people, too. Leslie, my dear, dear friend and fellow neighborhood Bible Study leader, got me through the first few months after leaving and so many theological discussions beforehand — all while going through intense personal trials. Trace and her husband C. ALWAYS stood by us, even though they are fully Reformed and still solid SGMers. Kim S and M. E. did, too. M., your walk with God inspires me to keep going. Your strength and faith amid trials is a shining example to us all! Your love and prayers have been much appreciated. Thank you, all of you, for sticking by me!!
More of my recent miraculous transformation is here: http://creativepowerhouse.blogspot.com
Juli, thanks for several excellent points, especially that the steps are not necessarily sequential. The first set under Grieving are from standard grief counseling. I thought they might serve not as “the way to do it”, but as a useful starting point for counseling those leaving SGM. I think many of us have gone back and forth between stages and even experienced several emotions at the same time. The second set under Recovery are not sequential at all – just ongoing spiritual practices I found helpful in the recovery process. I felt this was necessary for believers because secular models really do not have a concept of restoration that is so central to the Christian experience.
DB, sadly, SGM would never provide exit counselling becase that would be admitting that they are causing people problems which would require change. I think it is up to those who have come out of spirtual abuse to develop ther own resources, communities, and models for recovery. A forum like one is a great launching pad or “skunkworks” for those efforts.
Definition:“Skunk works” or “skunkworks” is widely used in business, engineering, and technical fields to describe a group within an organization given a high degree of autonomy and unhampered by bureaucracy, tasked with working on advanced or secret projects.
FreedomFigher,
thank you so much for sharing your ppst-SGM story, it gives me MUCH hope and encouragement! I think so often all we hear of is the stories that are still raw, full of pain and hurt, confusion, that it is such a blessing to “fast forward” some time and hear your story – of God’s faithfulness to you, His amazing means of bringing reconciliation and how He has changed your heart in the process…wow. and wow again. Thanks for sharing..it truly lifted my spirits today!
FreedomFighter, would it be OK to post your story you shared above on my own blog? I would love to be able to encourage others from my former church who read my blog but not these blogs. I think they do think life ends after SGM. Your story proves otherwise..I will link to your blog as well if that is OK.
you can email me at libertyinchristATliveDOTcom or just answer here..thanks so much..
Juli said, ” I love “steps” and things to do- one of the reasons I made an excellent legalist!”
Ha ha ha! I completely understand that!! Awesome.
“Reconciling with people doesn’t mean you suddenly agree with their doctrine. It means all is forgiven. You are now working side by side to bring Him glory in all you do.”
I love this and will add it to the list of recovery practices. Reconciliation is not always possible when the other party will not participate, but we should always seek it. It is very powerful when it happens.. Thanks FF.
Greg
Thanks for your posts.
I past them on to someone I know who is still having issues from being “asked to leave” her SGM (was PDI) at the time. It can be hard for some people to get over what happened to them.
I am sure it is natural for a while to think that something must be wrong with you. After all, these leaders present themselves as humble and open to correction etc. After hearing this and believing it for many years when you don’t find them open to what you are saying and put the guilt trip on you there is a conflict and you assume this conflict must be due to you and your actions.
It can take a while to see that many times these leaders aren’t as humble and open to correction like they say they are.
Thanks again.
Juli, by all means, pass along my story! I am so humbled at what God did. (That GOOD kind of humility!) I prayed for years and suffered silently. Then, after moving on and basically writing off the entire mess as impossibly irreconcilable, WHAM! God shows up! I am seriously pinching myself… Not only that, there is a church here in my city that is made up almost solely of SGM survivors. Even if I had NOT responded to what God was doing, He had a backup plan to woo me toward healing through the precious people there! What I am now is SPOILED!!! LOL!
And you can link to my blog, too. Although the rest of what’s on there is pretty much frivolous.
I just reread my story above and it looks like I was either saying my pastor was a woman (which could never be in a SG church) or that I prayed with the pastor’s daughter. I should have said I called the pastor’s WIFE, and was reconciled.
Also, an addendum… When I said I was reconciled to my former CGL’s wife, I should have offered a few more details.
SHE APOLOGIZED FOR SHUNNING ME!!!
That’s much bigger than “we were reconciled — and reconciliation doesn’t always mean you agree on doctrine.” Praise Jesus!
FF,
Wow, that is so amazing that she apologized for shunning you! That must have been so healing.
It was, Ellie. And an important thing to realize is that we are all on a journey of faith. We don’t always do everything right — that’s why we need a Savior. I know I left in a huff, thinking these people were off their rockers. Who would want to stay friends with me when it’s written all over my face that I disapprove of their doctrine? So there was culpability on both sides.
But the problem people are facing now is no one at SGM is willing to say, “Geez, I was wrong to teach those corrupt doctrines and I can see now how much it hurt you and God and the body of Christ. AND I’M SORRY!”
FF, not only it is amazing that she apologized for shunning you, but that she acknowledged it was shunning!
I’m currently being shunned by 99% of my former SGM church, so the thought that ANYONE would even admit to shunning me, much less apologize for it, seems, well, impossible to be honest. I guess I don’t have the faith just yet, but I am praying for reconciliation.
To be honest, I think them shunning me the Lord has used to help me move on, cling to Him more. It’s funny, the things that hurt the most end up doing us the most good in the long run. What they intended for evil, God meant for good (gee, isn’t that somewhere in the Bible?
So even though the shunning hurts, I identify with Joseph in that respect. And when I am angry at them, I identify with David. And when I begin to love them again, I identify with Christ.
As my dear sister in the Lord always says when she gets hurt by people (esp in the Body)
“This should not hurt so much, I am supposed to be DEAD!” ha ha
Hey, Juli,
Keep in mind, that shunning is a common experience.
There is nothing particularly vile about you to have those whom you thought were close friends all of a sudden shun you.
Its just typical modus operendi for SGM.
Yes, DB, the vile part was my children constantly asking if their kids could come over and play and my tears behind closed doors after having to tell them no.
I still forgive them, though, because as Jesus Himself said, “They know not what they do!”
And I have to say, God totally came through for us with new friends and a new church family. When we first left SGM, I had a newborn baby and realized coming home from the hospital that no one would be making me meals for a week because we’d left the church. To my surprise, my neighbor two doors down who has never done anything like this appeared at my door with a complete meal the next day. That is only God’s mercy at work!
Our family left SGCC about two years ago for a couple of reasons. The first has to do with our oldest child. All her preteen and teen years she felt ostracized. I don’t blame anyone. When we left we only told everyone that she connected with a youth group in another church. Almost every time we shared this we met people who could relate. Litterly dozens and dozens of families who could relate. This apparantly is widespread within the church. I hope this issue will be resolved as some of the other issues are being addressed.
The second reason relates to some very harsh counsel that I received. I do believe the pastor was blind to how destructive his counsel was. Many years ago I approached a pastor about a certain situation because I was confused about lack of “follow through” on his part. His response was “You have an idol”. I was taken aback because my ONLY experience with him was being hurt because he didn’t keep his word. However I completely trusted him and the other pastors. I got down on my hands and knees before God and saught my heart. After repeatedly seeking God to reveal to me my sin I came to realize that this pastor misunderstood my heart. He asked me to lay this idol down once and for all and seek God. For a year I foirgave his offenses towards me and sought God. I had no preconceived time line in mind. However after a year I thought maybe I was “good enough” to be used in this particular venue. When I approached hin about being ulsed in this particular venue he looked me square in the eye and said “I was thinging yearS”. I felt the floor give way beneath me. I was crushed. Where was the grace? Why wasn’t I shown this grace they most recently showed the pastors of SGCC for much more egregious sins? I even wrote one of the pastors before leaving. I told him I felt a cloud was over my head and I had a sign on my chest that said “UNFIT and UNWORTHY!”. I had NO response to this cry of my heart! I plead with the pastors please do more than say you are sorry, Please change your destructive counseling patterns towards your flock!
hurtsheep,
I pray that God will gather you in His arms and bind up your wounds.
See Ezekiel 34:11-16, especially verse 15 and the first part of 16:
“I myself will be the shepherd of my sheep, and I myself will make them lie down,” declares the Lord GOD. “I will seek the lost, and I will bring back the strayed, and I will bind up the injured, and I will strengthen the weak…”
Hurtsheep,
Welcome to the refuge. I don’t know how I missed your comment, but while looking for an old post, I found it!
I’m sorry for your pain. I do not understand how a pastor could be unresponsive when one of his flock exhibits such pain. I hope that you have overcome those horrible lies from our enemy (satan). The Truth is that, through the blood of Jesus, you are dearly loved and cherished and fit for use in His Kingdom! GRACE to you.
O Hurtsheep, I thought I was the only one wearing the “UNFIT and UNWORTHY” sign on me with a child who never seemed to fit in, for whom the laughing crowds at the youth meetings only seemed to highlight our otherness.
As my Lutheran pastor used to tell the children at the communion rail,
“Jesus loves you, just the way you are!”
Welcome, Hurtsheep! {{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{ }}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}} <—-hugs
Nope, Acme, you and Hurtsheep aren’t the only ones. :/
INC, Gracie, acme, and Ellie,
THANKYOU for your kind words and support!
Hi Hurtsheep!
Welcome to The Refuge! Like Gracie, I somehow I missed your comment. Hopefully you will find comfort here.
Dear Hurtsheep,
Along with the others here on the Refuge,I hear the cry of your heart. The destructive counsel you received embodied in cruel, law-motivated words. When you wrote the pastor before leaving and described yourself with a big sign reading “unfit and unworthy”—and there was no response–just silence on the other end—this is also a wounding that we and many others have experienced. The discarding of people by not even acknowledging the wounded cry of their questions and hearts.
And yet—the Father has heard your cry; and I hear streams of reatoration in your voice. And I pray He will continuously sing over you and your family with songs of deliverance (deliverance is defined as ‘victories’).
You are more than welcome around here, Hurtsheep. I pray that God will use our words here to help heal you! Feel free to just join in, sometimes we even get silly!
And Waters, what a sweet response to Hurtsheep!
(I don’t know if this is your first post here or not, but if it is – Welcome! If it isn’t, then I am sorry I missed when you posted and I am glad you are here!)
Thankyou,Ellie. No, not my first post…but as the Lord leads……
Hurtsheep,
Hurting with you…the leaders who treated you so badly were not your true pastors because, in the end, they did not love you or treat you tenderly like a shepherd does. Jesus, your true Shepherd, is going to lead you gently and lovingly. When you experience this Pastor of our hearts, you will never feel unworthy again. You are so welcome here!
Hurtsheep, I am so glad when you sought the Lord He revealed HImself to you, and you feel now free to go worship Him, and not feel condemned and unworthy anymore.
Sometimes we need to move on past the Cross to begin the journey of faith, you know?
Keep pressing on, following Jesus!
Hurtsheep,
I had the thought the other night that even as other Christians were the ones to hurt you and many others here push us down, the Lord uses other Christians to remind us of His love and give us a hand up and carry us when we are broken.
May the Lord comfort you with His love and bring other believers into your life to assure you that He cares for you.
Carole,
Hi! and thank you for the welcome!
Waters, and Julie,
God is restoring my joy with “songs of deliverence”. I’m singing with an awesome team of worshipers. One of our current favorite song is Freedom. How applicable is that?! I’m also free to worship because I don’t have anger in my heart anymore. I dearly love the people at SGCC including the pastors! Thank you God for your gentle loving work in me! I’m excited knowing God has used all the negative experiences in my life for a purpose. While I pray for others to have their eyes opened I pray that God continue to open MY eyes to blind spots.
Ellie,
Thank you for the encouragement!
Canary,
One of the things I’ve learned through the 8 years of emotional turmoil at SGCC was to trust GOD alone. Even my wonderful, Godly husband is not always correct in matters of the heart. However he is usually more spiritually discerning than me.
I know in my mind that God will never reject me but I’m still learning to except that in my HEART. Thank you for your support!
INC,
He HAS brought many christians to encourage me and assure me of His love and acceptance. Thank you so much for that prayer!
Hurtsheep,
I’m so glad to hear that! I thank God for His care!
Hurtsheep , When I read the bible on my own I am aware of many warnings and teachings. The primary message I receive from God though is always……..I love you. I want to know you. I want you to trust me. I want you to follow me. It will be ok. Then I see the warnings and teachings are for my own good. Many teachers of the word are so busy correcting and make the mistake of thinking they see it when they don’t. I’m sorry you felt ignored, misunderstood and rejected. I know how hard it is to leave a church. You are definitely out of your comfort zone and its not always what you really want to do. I hope you are healing and able to praise the One who is Holy : the One who is Worthy of ALL Praise.
Lion Heart, yes, going to another church after 15 years was one of the MOST difficult things I have done in my entire life. My first born was only a baby when we first attended. I felt like I was in no man’s land. No other church would feel “right” at first. While everyone was very warm and accepting they still weren’t family. Praise God they are now! It took over a year for my heart to stop aching. While I still dearly love the people at SGCC I feel very much part of the ministry and family at my new church. About 8 months after leaving SGCC my husband and I were asked to lead worship at a life group leadership meeting. I was blown away because I didn’t even know how they new we sang together. I had not pursued this venue in our new church. God had His fingerprints all over this! Not only did God bless us in this way but when they were laying hands on the Life Group leaders the head of the life groups wanted to pray for us. As he prayed he said “I don’t know why you left your previous church, whether it was negative or not but it is perfectly clear that God has called you hear!” At this point I started bawling like a baby! I needed to know that I was still under God’s care and that I hadn’t played a part in tearing my family away from God’s plan for us. Even as I type this I have tears of gratitude for His unfailing love!!!! Thank you God for your love and patience!! Yes, Lion Heart am not only healing but growing more Christlike with His help. Thank you for your support!
Hurtsheep,
It brings my heart joy (and I needed it today!) to read that you see God’s fingerprints all over the events in your life, even the difficult ones. THAT is redemption! Isn’t He just awesome?? I love Him!
So glad to hear you are not only healing but becoming more like Christ – which is what we all long for.
Juli,
Glad to bring your heart joy! Yes, He is awesome!! I think I need to change my screen name to BELOVED sheep.
Hurtsheep,
I think, my dear saint, that you should become Beloved Sheep. That is the Lord’s heart for you!
Wow, Beloved Sheep!!! That is so cool how they ask you guys to to lead worship when they didn’t even know you two sang together! So glad you found a place where it feels like a family, where you belong.
Canary,
Thank you!
Ellie,
When the head of the life groups called us he mentioned that he heard that we sang together. I just don’t know where he heard that. This was someone my husband and I didn’t know. When God has a plan He makes a way to get the necessary word out. I’ve learned over the years to trust God for certain things to happen and not take matters into my on hands. When I do act without trusting God it is disasterous. Most
importantly I want His blessing on everything that I do! I still struggle with not feeling worthy and I’m not. However Through Jesus Christ I am loved and accepted and made righteous. His word is a comfort to me. It does help a lot to be in a church that is a “safe place” just like our pastor said it should be. I still am grateful for the teachings of the cross but how wonderful to also experience the joy that comes through His Holy Spirit!
Hi Beloved Sheep! ; )
Hi Freedom Fighter! We sure enjoyed seeing you Saturday : )
Hi Beloved!
I like your new name OH! so much better than your last one!
Hi Carole, me too!
Hello Saints!
I just read “About PK”, which I failed to see available ’til today. Duh…it use to be “About Jim”, so I didn’t realize it had been changed. I would encourage everyone – this is a must read, if you have not already done so. Any damage I have done, in my own confusion over what wasn’t clear, will be cleared up upon seeing the balanced agenda on PK’s heart.
The stories told about the misuses of authortiy in SGM have been vital to our reaching the point of reform, or even being able to hope for it. Those of us no longer at SGM can speak of how the Lord has changed us, and moved us forward in our walk with Him. Those who still remain at SGM can have a discussion about the effects of PK’s 1,2,and 3 (see, now you are curious, and have to go read about him!), and how it must change for God’s glory. Those still unsure about what they are seeing will gain clarity, I hope.
For those special ones who have been forced out of SGM, either through shunning or disagreeing with the pastors, you have not been lost. God’s tender eye is upon you. I hope you will feel free to post here, and on “My Story”, where Jim promised to give the boot to anyone who criticizes you. These two places are for you, the ones who could no longer keep up, the ones who feel left by the wayside, lonely and afraid.
There are also some of you who have moved on who will be invaluable in helping those still sitting on the road, wondering, “What now? Where is God?” Please, please post your experience so that those who feel hopeless and alone can gain courage and insight. Remember what it was like to feel “dismembered”? Let’s help encourage those who are there, now. They need to see that they are not alone, that Jesus is with them, even if they have left SGM.
Walking in Freedom, if you are reading this, I hope you will feel comfortable posting again, especially after reading about PK. I hope my own questioning was not responsible for your leaving. Those who need a refuge can still find it here. You are welcome on this blog!
G.D., if you are reading: I feel confident that your experience will help those who have suffered, and lend insight to the discussion with any who remain at SGM. Be free, brother. Your discernment will guide you. Besides, my kitty needs lots of reminding about why he is in the cage!!!
Looking forward to hearing from folks here and at My Story. I will be reading along on the main blog, as well, knowing that very important discussions will be going on, there. PK’s passion for reform matches, maybe surpasses Jim’s, from what I have learned about him. I think it’s going to be good! Canary
P.S. I realize this is not MY blog. I’m just parking over in this corner, ready to help support those who need it. Got your back, PK!
Canary – I will try to read along and respond as I can…I am always praying! I am so encouraged by the work the Lord is doing behind the scenes, not only here but in SGM churches nationwide. He is at work, make no mistake!
People are finding freedom, relief, peace, joy..and at the same time we can encounter such confusion, fear, paranoia (well, I was paranoid for a whole month last year anyway!) and they can feel lonely, depressed, disconnected…so many possibilities.
Many have said before, and I echo it here – were it not for the blogs to simply let these people know they are NOT alone – it would take much longer to process all that is happening to them..I know the blogs are a huge part of the reason I have worked through this relatively fast (compared to others who didn’t have access to blogs, prayers of others, information, etc)
So, for those reading with questions – you can always email people privately..take that first step - it is not a sin to seek the truth!! It is not a sin to share your story! In the end, you still decide, nobody will decide for you. PK, Carole, Jim are all more than willing to help answer any questions you have if you don’t want to ask them publicly, and they keep things in confidence, AND this thread here is a NO ATTACK zone..so feel free to post and hang out in this corner of the blog if you want to simply discuss things with people and not fear drive-by comments that may hurt or distract..
Hey Juli!
I’m glad you will pop in and out. I haven’t had a chance to read the new discussion on Polity. Going to try to, tonight.
I found that one of the things I went through after the initial shock of betrayal wore off was depression. The Lord carried me with strength through that. Then I had to understand what my own responsibility was in the whole experience. I trusted men before God.
My whole walk for the past 13 years since leaving SGM has been seeking and finding the Lord. Learning to abide in Christ is so important, as the bible instructs. There was so much taught at my old church that centered around a few particular verses, leaving out others that would have given balance. For years, I could not read Paul’s letters because he was presented so sternly to us. Now, after learning more about him, and seeing scripture through the mind of Christ, I see that he was passionate for the gospel. He was so passionate that he said some pretty harsh things toward those who would attempt to preach a false gospel, namely the leaven of the Pharisees (1 Co. 5:6-8).
I found this verse, and wondered when THAT got placed in my bible. How did I miss it? I use the Amplified version. It says in Gal. 5:9:
“A little leaven (a slight inclination to error, or a few false teachers) leavens the whole lump [it perverts the whole conception of faith or misleads the whole church].”
I’m still studying about what the leaven is. I want to be able to identify it in my own life.
hey remember about what we talked about before, about what SALT does to leaven! that was cool..
WE ARE THE SALT OF THE EARTH
KILL THE LEAVEN!!
Hee-hee, We should make a flag or something “Down with Leaven of the Pharisees!”
I have found two verses where Jesus describes the Kingdom of heaven like this: a woman takes 3 portions of flour, puts leaven in it and hides it away. Now, that left me scratching my whittle head. I asked my husband, “So there is good leaven and there is bad leaven?” His answer: the woman puts the dough away so that it will rise in private or in secret, where no one watches it grow. The leaven can be compared to the wheat and the tares. They both LOOK the same as they begin to grow, but are impossible to tell apart til they mature. That is why the Lord says to let them grow together. He doesn’t want the wheat accidentally torn up as they tear up the tares (say that five times fast).
He said, it is like having a tree grow, but not being able to tell if the fruit of it is good or bad, until the fruit appears (hence, the leaven growing in secret, letting the dough rise unharmed). Two trees may look the same, until the fruit begins to show. Wheat and tare look the same until they mature. Leaven in dough can look the same until it permeates the dough. The Pharisees were filled with bad leaven (corruption, selfish ambition, etc.). Jesus has the good leaven, which is compared to the Kingdom of heaven. So, there’s good leaven in heaven! (Oy, bad joke).
Hope I explained that well enough. I’m still learning about this. I even found that Abraham, when the three angels visited, ran to Sarah for food. She made three cakes with cereal and LEAVEN to feed the angels. Hmmmm…yet the Israelites, when leaving Egypt, took bread WITHOUT leaven. I think that symbolizes that they were leaving behind the bondage they were under as slaves. Interesting, isn’t it?
Oh, I forgot. My husband went on to say that the fruit that is good is not knowledge (which puffs up) but the fruits of the spirit spoken of in Phillipians – love, joy, peace, patience, goodness, kindness, gentleness, self-control…this is from memory so I hope I got it right…
Canary, you said: “I’m still studying about what the leaven is. I want to be able to identify it in my own life.”
Leaven (sin) hunting in your own life is the Holy Spirit’s “job” for the Holy Spirit will convict you or your sin…..or so I thought until a few minutes ago……
Wow! I was hunting down the verse to support the idea above without much success. So I googled “Holy Spirit convicts us of sin” and came up with this video. It is only a couple of minutes long.
Wow! This really and truly speaks to SGM’s issue of sin hunting – of “indwelling sin.”
Wow! Please go watch that video and get back her to discuss this revelation with me: The Holy Spirit convicts us of righteousness (not sin).
Stunned.
er, I mean, Remnant.
Canary, I have a post in moderation. Please be sure to check back soon because I posted a link to a short video discussing the Holy Spirit’s role in “sin hunting.”
Can’t wait until you and Juli listen to what is on that video. I need to talk about it…I’ve never looked at the Holy Spirit’s role in this manner before. I “bought” a lie.
After listening to that video clip, give number 48 a whirl….
Boy, does this relate to SGM’s teaching on “indwelling sin” and speak truth to that lie. It’s a great follow-up to the above clip.
Thanks Canary for the encouragement. Everything is good now.
Remnant,
I’ve looked at the video. I’ll have to study on it for a while. Convicted of righteousness…isn’t it amazing when we stumble across scripture that we merely skipped over in the past?
I want to be clear that, when the bible speaks of the leaven, it is not speaking about sin. I do not go sin-digging. Icky. Had enough of that. I don’t have time to explain tonight, but I will show you what I mean tomorrow, in scripture. I don’t claim to be an expert or teacher, but I will share what I’ve found in the bible on this subject. In moving on from our experiences at SGM, it helps to understand what the leaven is, and how it effected our faith. Galations 5:9 is a good place to start. Nightie-night!
Something interesting that I found concerning leaven:
When you dig into Jesus’ parables a little bit, they can make you crazy. Many of the parables can leave you feeling surreal and confused. Sometimes they are like a Buddhist koan: “What is the sound of one hand clapping?” You try to get your mind around them, but they defy defining. With his parables, Jesus challenged conventional thinking and easy answers. He broke his listeners out of their complacency, and created space in their imaginations.
These parables today may seem familiar and comfortable to you. But maybe there is more here than meets the eye. I’m going to try to open up some of the fabric of these stories and images. Let’s see where it takes us.
“The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed that someone took and sowed in his field; it is the smallest of all the seeds, but when it has grown it is the greatest of shrubs and becomes a tree, so that the birds of the air come and make nests in its branches.”
In Jesus’ world, mustard is a weed. An invasive weed. No one would intentionally sow mustard seed in an agricultural plot. And it doesn’t become a tree. Maybe a big bush, but never a tree.
But Jesus’ listeners recognized this language about a great tree that the birds of the air would make their nests in. That tree was an important image for Israel — an image of Israel’s destiny in the messianic age.
Listen to the vision of Daniel:
Upon my bed this is what I saw; there was a tree at the center of the earth, and its height was great. The tree grew great and strong, its top reached to heaven, and it was visible to the ends of the whole earth. Its foliage was beautiful, its fruit abundant, and it provided food for all. The animals of the field found shade under it, the birds of the air nested in its branches, and from it all living beings were fed. (Daniel 4:10-12) Popular thought had adopted this vision as an image of Israel’s future.
Centuries earlier Ezekiel had imagined God’s planting a noble cedar upon a high mountain. “In the shade of its branches birds of every sort will nest.” (Ezekiel 17:22-23) The national identity of Israel includes the dream of being the highest and greatest tree — a mighty cedar which will shelter and shade.
But Jesus says, “The kingdom of heaven is like… …a mustard weed!” So much for your delusions of grandeur. Cedars don’t even grow in Israel. But look again at this modest mustard weed, from a seed so small you can barely see it. The effects are just the same. The birds of the air come and make nests in its branches. You don’t have to become a big cedar; a weedy mustard plant is enough for the Kingdom of God.
“The kingdom of heaven is like yeast that a woman took and mixed in with three measures of flour until all of it was leavened.”
Yeast is always a negative symbol in the scriptures. “Beware of the yeast of the Pharisees and Sadducees,” Jesus says. Yeast is a metaphor for corruption. A tiny measure of yeast will affect a volume of flour fifty to one-hundred times it’s measure, causing it to expand to two or three times its size. Yeast is a powerful image for the corrupting potential of even the smallest sin.
But this is a bad translation. It’s not yeast. It’s worse than yeast. It’s leaven. The better translation is, “The kingdom of heaven is like leaven…” Leaven is a chuck of bread that has been stored in a dark place until it molds. It is rotten. A little leaven spoils the whole batch. Every Jewish household must be purged of leaven for the Passover, and no leaven is allowed in the holy environs of the Temple.
And speaking of the Temple, what is this woman doing? Three measures of flour is an ephah of flower — fifty or sixty pounds of flour. That’s the recipe for Temple Bread. This woman in her little kitchen with her little clay oven is using the Temple Bread formula. Women can’t do that! And she’s hiding nasty leaven in it. Leviticus says that God hates the smell of leaven. It is always Biblical symbol of evil. “The kingdom of heaven is like leaven that a woman took and mixed in with fifty pounds of flour until all of it was leavened.” How bizarre. Surreal.
“Again, the kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field, which someone found and hid; then in his joy he goes and sells all that he has and buys the field.”
The buyer is probably a laborer, a peasant. He would have had to sell everything in order to buy the field. In a little village like those where Jesus taught, that selling and buying would have been very public. It would have prompted much gossip and speculation. This peasant is willing to part with the very substance and security of his life to buy a field.
But, we think we know why. He’s found the treasure, right? But what Jesus’ listeners knew that we don’t necessarily know, is that if this peasant began to spend the treasure, and it was discovered that he knew the treasure was there but didn’t tell the former owner, that would be tantamount to fraud. The former owner would sue and would likely reclaim the field and its treasure.
So here is the peasant. He owns a great treasure hidden in his field, but he can’t take possession of it for himself. The kingdom of God is like a man with a possessionless treasure.
The kingdom of God is like a mustard weed? …or a truckload of nasty bread? …or a treasure you own but cannot possess? What is this stuff about?
Your guess is as good as mine. But you can bet Jesus was shaking up the common notions of his time. These are naughty stories. Like a comic satirist, Jesus made fun of the pretensions of nationalism and religion and purity and wealth and power.
The preacher/teacher doing stand-up.
Nation, you are like a mustard weed. Let the birds be glad.
An unclean woman bakes Temple Bread in her home oven. Let the multitudes eat.
There’s infinite treasure worth risking your substance and security for, but you can’t posses it. Let everyone be joyful.
The peasants loved this stuff. Proud religious folks like me hated it.
http://www.stpaulsfay.org/id326.html
Atonement = the effect of Jesus’ sufferings and death in redeeming mankind and bringing about the reconciliation of God to man.
Because of the atonement, you are totally forgiven.
Because of the atonement, all your sins are covered by the blood of Jesus.
Because of the atonement, you no longer OWE anything for your sins because Jesus has paid it all.
Because of the atonement, all you have to do is receive the finished work of Christ.
Because of the atonement, you no longer have to prove anything to anybody. Jesus proved it all by dieing on the Cross for YOU. Yes, He did this just for YOU.
Because of the atonement, because of Jesus death on the Cross, you are a new creature. The old has gone and the new has come.
Because of the Atonement, all of your shame and guilt has been dealt with. You have no more shame, no more guilt because Jesus died on the Cross for you.
Remember that when we try to pay more for our sins by working harder and not receiving our salvation, the Scriptures say that it is as if we are saying that Jesus’ death on the Cross is not enough and that we have to do more. No it is finished and He has done it all. The best gift that you can give to Jesus (not that you have to give Him a gift because you are a gift to Him just the way you are) would be to receive from Him today. Receive His love. Receive today because Jesus Christ paid a huge price to give you the atonement. You were washed clean of all your sins from the moment that you confessed that you were a sinner in need of a Savior and accepted Jesus as your Savior and as your Lord. You are clothed in the righteousness of Christ and this is what Father God sees when He looks upon you. He sees the righteousness of Christ over you. What wonderful news! This is why we can walk free today. This is why we can live the abundant life that Christ promised – Because of Christ and the FINISHED work on the Cross!!
Let God work this Truth into your heart today. All your sins have been washed clean by the blood of Jesus Christ. They are no longer. What GOOD NEWS! Receive this today. Stand firm in the Truth and walk in the power of the Resurrection! He is sitting at the right hand of the Father making intercession for us this very minute. What Good News!
Elle – thank you for those lessons on the parables. As a Jew, I’ve heard a different perspective on the parables than what is normally taught at churches. Your post is wonderful and certainly eye-opening. It is so important to remember the context, the audience, the perspective of the first-century Israel when trying to interject meaning into the parables. Thank you!
About the leaven and Passover: what you say is spot on. The Feasts of Israel are a fore-shadow of the first and second advents of Messiah. Without going into detail, I’m sure we all recognize that Messiah was crucified on the day the Passover Lamb was sacrificed at the Temple (1 Cor 5:7), arose on the day First Fruits and is the First Fruit of the Resurrection (1 Cor 15:20), and that the Church was established on the Day of Pentecost (aka The Feast of Weeks) (Acts 2:1) when the Holy Spirit was given unto us.
What is missing in this line-up of 4 Spring Feasts is the 7-day Feast of Unleavened Bread. The Feast of Unleavened Bread occurs the day after Passover and symbolizes the Sinlessness of Jesus’ blood offering. Now that that Passover sacrifice is accomplished (the Lamb is slain), we celebrate a 7-day Feast dedicated to the absence of Leaven – the absence of sin. The Blood of the Lamb has been applied not to doorposts as in Exodus, but instead, the Blood of the Lamb is applied to each Believer, freeing us from the Wrath of God (Heb 9:11-10:18).
Walking in Freedom – yup and amen!
The Good News Message is that Atonement has been provided for us: Leaven has been removed by the Blood of the Lamb. The Wrath of God is appeased. We are no longer objects of Wrath, but God’s precious children (Romans 5:9).
We no longer need fear God’s wrath, anger, disapproval. We are loved, accepted, forgiven, paid for.
Canary..I recently looked into what that verse mean about knowledge puffing up – it was always taught in the context of pridefulness..actually, the word “puffed up” in Greek doesn’t even come CLOSE to meaning that, even on a good stretch out of context..it actually means burdened…knowledge burdens us, which is what Solomon said in Ecclesiastes…BIG difference..
but it would stand to reason why SGM would continue to teach this incorrectly – searching for truth would be then construed as seeking knowledge, and since seeking or obtaining knowledge “puffs one up” and puffing up has been defined (conveniently) as pride, and we know pride is sin….sooo..seeking truth is sinful. That is the rational end to that type of teaching. And any teaching that says individual thought or pursuit of knowledge and truth is sinful is, uh, controlling and tyrannical…that says a lot about SGM right there.
Remnant, I have not watched the video as of yet..but yes, there is a big difference between conviction of sin and conviction of righteousness…
this is what I personally feel on the subject from my own study, just food for thought: one of the reasons Jesus died on the Cross was to remove awarness and consciousness of sin, right? We read this over and over (actually this aspect of the atonement is marginalized and in my opinion it is the BEST result of the atonement and resurrection) so if He died to do this, then why would we still be “convicted” of sin? It certainly seems to contradict the whole clear conscience teachings over and over in Scripture.
However, we do have an awareness of sin – but I think that doesn’t come post-regeneration or post-salvation or whatever you want to call it – each person has this ability from birth – the awareness of sin – read Romans 1…man exchanges truth for a lie, bit by bit…but we all begin with a knowledge of God and who He is, the law is written on our hearts, this is the New Covenant..so why all the talk about the HOly Spirit convicting of sin when we had that ability BEFORE being indwelt…doesn’t it stand to reason that logically, the role of the Holy Spirit would be, post-salvation, to convict of RIGHTEOUSNESS as you indicated?
Just some thoughts..I will check out the video..of course many will fear a license for sin and abuse of grace…but I think if you examine Scripture and play out these teachings to their logical ends…you will find that increasing holiness, freedom, and clean conscience would result as our faith is ever increasing…it’s amazing!
teachings on indwelling sin and total depravity have always been about control, make no mistake…when these doctrines of death are lifted and man is now free from the guilt and condemantion ha can experience grace as God intended…and we can experience abundant life, as God intended for us to.
Remnant, I just read all of your posts above..so as a Jew, could I ask – what do you think the purpose of the old testament sacrifices were? What effect were they to produce in the people, and also in the eyes of God?
I know my own perspective on this and they are not what I was raised being taught, and asking this one question radically changed how I viewed things in terms of Jesus’ sacrifice..but I’d be really interested in hearing how this was actually taught to you as a Jew, and what your understanding of it is now – thanks in advance! I’m wondering if my understand is now more in line with the Jewish thinking actually…or not..
I love all this discussion. It is very uplifting!
I have to say again that leaven did not represent sin, as much as bondage to salvery. (Ex. 13:3,7). The Feast of the Unleavened Bread (Ex.12:17) was practiced to remind the Jewish people how they left Egypt in a hurry. Their bread was unleaven because their leaven bowels were already on ther backs (verse 39). The Lord said that for seven days they must eat no leaven to remember the bondage they were brought out of. This was done once a year after the Exodus.
Leaven is symbolic of corruption (Ex.12:15) when it has to deal with what Jesus described as the leaven of the Pharisees. “You shall not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leaven” (Ex.34:25, Luke 12:1).
Leaven was not despised by God when offered as a sacrifice of Thanksgiving with the Sacrifice of Peace Offerings (Lev. 7:13).
The lady who put aside three portions of flour: this first happened when Abraham was visited by the three angels (Gen.18:6). Sarah made three cakes of cereal (I’ve just found that there is no mention of leaven – the three portions is what is important) to feed them – this is like a thanksgiving offering because, like everything he did, Abraham fed the angels by faith. Jesus again speaks of a woman putting away three portions of flour with leaven (Luke 13:20-21) as being like the Kingdom of God. He speaks at least twice about the leaven being like the Kingdom of heaven (Matt. 13:33).
What we see here is that there is good leaven, leaven that is pleasing to God, that is compared to the Kingdom of heaven, that was offered in a Sacrifice of Thanksgiving and Peace.
There is also what Jesus warned as the leaven of the Pharisees (Matt. 8:15, Luke 12:1). Their leaven represented hypocrisy and corruption, which produces unrest and violent agitation (Amplified).
My favorite verse to explain why the leaven of the Pharisees is so harmful: “A little leaven (a slight inclination to error or a few false teachers) leavens the whole lump (it perverts the whole conception of faith or misleads the whole church)” (Gal. 5:9, Amplified).
Now, having shown the verses to go read, I believe it is important to understand the leaven of heaven (
) and the leaven of the Pharisees in order to move on from our experiences at a controlling church. That is what I’m still studying on. What we have described as “legalism” is not a word used in the bible (at least I haven’t found it, yet…anyone else find it?). Jesus warned of the leaven of the Phar. but also spoke of leaven as the Kingdom of God (lady with three portions of flour – she was not disobeying God – leaven was okay to use, except during the sevens days of the Feast of the Unleaven Bread that ocurred once a year). This is what I’ve learned:
The leaven (good and bad) is like the wheat and tares (Matt. !3: 24-30).
Leaven can look the same – it is not that using it is bad. It is how and when it is used that the Lord rebukes. Error, false teaching, corruption, hypocrisy – this is what Pharisee’s leaven looks like.
Leaven is like a seed – you will not always know which kind of fruit the trees will offer until they have matured with fruit. Until then, they can look the same (leaven of Phar. and leaven of the Kingdom, wheat and tares).
We want leaven in our lives that grows, leading to the Kingdom of heaven in our lives.
We experienced leaven of the Pharisees in SGM, from some of the teaching and from our own lack of understanding. It was in my one church when PDI took over. We already had leaven, for we were not searching as much for the Kingdom of heaven to grow in our midst as much as building a New Testament church. The leaven grew over the years, until it became what it is today – an organization that misrepresents its authority, giving more power to men than they should have. We have men who are puffed up with knowledge (like the Pharisees were), and believe their doctrines are RIGHT. When it comes down to it, they will choose their doctrine over love, which is a bad fruit (I saw relationships blow apart over doctrine that men had created through the use of one or two verses).
We, during our little tussle on this blog, chose love over being right. We desired unity over our own opinions. We got through a conflict, coming out still loving one another. Sure, it was a little messy. SGM did not like messes. So, it was my way or the highway. Do what we say or go some where else. That is baaaaad leaven. It does not bear good fruit. It lacks love. It was not the Kingdom of heaven in our midst. Even a little error grew until it perverted our conception of faith, and has even misguided the whole organization. That is what we saw, folks. That is what hurt us so much.
So, the kind of leaven I want in my life is the sort that Jesus spoke of. I want the Kingdom of heaven to grow within me. I want to be a tree that bears good fruit (love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, etc.). I do not want to eat of the leaven that will bear hypocrisy, error, agitation, etc.
Again, I am not a teacher (except for my home schoolers). Read the verses I noted and tell me if I’ve missed something important. I have another site I know of which is also speaking on this subject. Think I’ll fly over there for a quick browse.
However, what I’m realizing is that, when I was in SGM, I wasn’t a leaglist as much as a Pharisee! There was leaven in my life that was fermenting into much confusion about what faith really is. When I left, when I studied Hebrews, then I understood that it is faith that pleases God. Not faith in leaders. Not faith in a church. Not faith in doctrines created by men to control people and own their allegience.
That was the leaven that led to my bondage. Now I am free, and I want the Kingdom of heaven to be in my life by abiding with Jesus, who will ferment that good leaven (while no one can see it grow) into a good, useful lump of dough. Or a great tree that others can find shade beneath. Or a tree whose fruit is healthy and nourishing for others. Or a piece of wheat that will be collected in the end, and be saved.
I love my Bible! I just need to give my bird brain a rest. All this parable stuff has twisted it into a pretzel like shape…Hee-hee.
Juli, I was not taught much about this topic as a child, although I was raised in a Conservative home and we kept most of the laws of Kashrut (keeping Kosher) within the walls of the home. One could eat lobster and shrimp, but only at restaurants and only without the grandparents present! My personal heritage is one of tradition, rather than a heart-faith. I heard the Bible readings during Sabbath services and I, of course, went to Hebrew School three days per week, but we mostly studied history and tradition and learned to read Hebrew (without learning too much vocabulary) – that is, when we didn’t skip school to walk the short distance to the National Zoo on Connecticut Avenue in DC.
I was saved during my college years, in the 1970’s. My studies regarding Biblical things began at that time. When you ask my opinion of Old Testament sacrifices, I presume you mean those of the Mosaic Covenant only. We know that folk offered animal sacrifices prior to the giving of the Mosaic Covenant but I think your interest encompass the Lord’s intended purposes for the commanded offerings He gave to Moses.
I confess that although I did have a few basic ideas behind the reasons for the offerings, I did resort to doing a bit of research. Here’s what I found from my favorite saved Jewish scholar, Arnold G. Fruchtenbaum, Manuscript 180: The Levitical Offerings and the Levitical Sacrifices (Ariel.org).
The basic Meaning for the Offerings is found in the Hebrew word korban, meaning “to draw near” (Lev 1:2). “Therefore, by means of the sacrifice, one could draw near to God. The basic meaning is that of approaching God, drawing near to God by means of sacrifice” (pg 5).
The Frucht (as we fondly refer to him) goes on to state five derived meanings ranging from self-dedication (Burnt Offerings), generosity in giving (Meal Offerings), thanksgiving/praise/fellowship/communion for individual or national deliverance (Peace Offerings), expiation [removal of guilt by payment of penalty] by substitution (Sin Offering) and expiation with restitution made when someone caused injury (Trespass Offering aka “guilt offering).
The Mosaic sacrifices were not meant to be complete: they were limited in that they needed to be continually offered and they were also limited in purpose to the covenanted people only (Jewish people). Messiah’s one sacrifice, however, was sufficient for all (Rom 6:10; Heb 7:27; Heb 9:12; Heb 10:10; 1 Peter 3:18).
Even before the Mosaic Law, it is interesting to note that shedding of blood was necessary for redemption – from the original sin in the Garden of Eden when the Lord clothed Adam and Eve in animal skins. Fruchtenbaum states “As biblical history develops in the Book of Genesis, we find that all the ones with whom God was pleased came to Him by means of blood. Noah immediately offered up blood sacrifices when he left the ark. He was followed by other great men in Jewish history: Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, all of whom were careful to approach God by means of blood. When Moses received the Law at Mount Sinai, the redemptive element of blood ran throughout the entire Law with its 613 commandments (Manuscript 014: Why Did Messiah Have to Die? pg 4). This was a continual life and death cycle (pg 7).
When I first became a Believer in Messiah, one of the first verses I learned in regards to Messiah’s death was Leviticus 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you on the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood by reason of the life that makes atonement.
There is much more that can be discussed on the subject of sacrifices including the role of the Priesthood and Jesus’ High Priesthood. I’m not sure that what I wrote here was the direction you have been thinking. Have I answered your questions??
CORRECTION: In paragraph 7, I meant to say Mark 8:15, not Matt. 8:15.
Gosh – I just realized my last question, which was intended to be a leading question, comes across harshly. It was not my intention. Let me try again:
Juli, I hope my little discussion was along the lines you’re interested in. Was it what you are wanting to discuss, or would you like to tweak my focus?
Remnant,
I’m not Juli (obviously) but your last question doesn’t sound harsh to me – it sounds like what you intended – a leading question.
I want to clarify something. When I said the leaven is more like bondage to slavery than sin, I used the Exodus scriptures. However, bondage to the old law does lead to sin, like hypocrisy, corruption, strife, envy…all the things we see in the NT Pharisees . Many Christians live parts of their spiritual lives under the Old Law, which cannot free us or save us (when we were taught to sin dig, we were being taught the bad leaven). That is why it is so important to identify the bad leaven in what we have learned through SGM. Under the New Covenant, we are set free! The leaven of heaven can grow deep within us, and we see the Kingdom of Heaven in our midst.
Remnant,
Exodus 34:25 - “You shall not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leaven.”
Thank you for your description of the different offerings. I missed reading that yesterday, somehow! When I found the above Ex. verse, I thought this was a forshadowing of Jesus’ sacrifice. I love the verses you included. Jesus did it all with His own sacrifice of blood.
I read that the Peace offering was given with leaven. Do you know anything more about what that offering was for? You know, the Thanksgiving offering of peace (I think is what it was called)? I ask because I want to more deeply understand why the leaven was pleasing to God in this offering, while it was not pleasing to Him during the Feast of the Unleaven bread (because of the Exodus – I get that). Trying to wrap my brain around it all, so my heart will get filled. I love the kind of revelation from scripture that deepens my understanding of the Lord and His plans. Thanks!
Remnant, thank you so much for all the information – I am going to read some of The Frucht’s work
This is where I am coming from and see if I can lay this out enough for others to follow. It’s difficult to explain how all this is working in my mind, but I will attempt to do my best:
I have asked myself for years about PUNISHMENT for sins being the means of cleansing the conscience. Punishment=Clean Conscience has been my assumption for years. Until recently, when I rethought it. I rethought it simply because of the logical outworkings and terrible fruit produced by SGM’s constant focus on indwelling sin and the Cross-centered guilt that was heaped upon us for so long.
You mentioned expiation (if I understood correctly) by three different means: payment of penalty, substitution, and restitution.
I’ve been taught Christ’s “sacrifice” met all three of these. But I don’t find much support in the NT for the penalty aspect in particular. Meaning, most scriptures that deal with Christ’s death are speaking to it accomplishing the ability for those with faith to have a clean conscience, and not even implying that punishment was even necessary…that by faith we escape even the NEED for punishment. Those who don’t live by faith will in fact be punished eternally. For their sin, and sin is any action that stems from what? Unbelief. It’s all about faith. Go figure!
So, ultimately, all “sin” translates to unbelief..not so much the actions..naturally many actions stem from unbelief and exchanging the truth of God for a lie (romans 1), for not believing the law that is written on our hearts under the New Covenant. God said that as part of the New Covenant that ALL would know Him and Romans 1 talks further about this knowledge of GOd we have so that we are without excuse. So if we have access to God by faith (like everyone did in the OT) and they drew near by the blood, and we draw near by the blood of Christ now and don’t need to offer actual blood sacrifices..why all the talk of Jesus taking on the punishment for sins?
Remember, God said that sacrifices and offerings he does not want, but a broken and contrite heart he will not despise..so, if we have that broken and contrite heart (which is a change of heart, which is repentance) then why the need for punishment then? We’ve repented of our “sin” of unbelief and are believing God – no punishment should be required, right? So now it seems Jesus’ death was the shedding of blood so that we can draw near, with a clean conscience by faith..not because our sin was “paid for”. We can draw near because our CONSCIENCES have been sprinkled..Hebrews says. That is key.
Does all this make sense? Because honestly, how can one say without thinking it ridiculous that the death of a bull or lamb somehow would “satisfy” the righteous requirements of the law that were broken in and of itself? The act alone I am saying. Wasn’t it really the HEART and FAITH of the person killing the bull that pleased God and satisfied Him? The act of sacrifice was the outward working of the inward faith already present..as James said, faith and action working together…FAITH pleases God, not the sacrifice or action. But if faith is present, action will follow. I think we’ve just focused on actions for too long and neglected the heart. (which in cidentally is what Jesus said about the Pharisees when he said they clean the outside of the cup but the inside is still dirty)
so when we, by faith, draw near to God through Jesus, we are acting in the same way the people of faith in the OT did, in a way that pleased God. And it seems to me it had little or nothing to do with punishment for sins – it had EVERYTHING to do with the heart and repentance and a faith that resulted in action. For where there is no offense, there is no need for punishment.
To put it in practical terms – as a mother, when my son does something “wrong” I discipline him or punish him for what ultimate purpose? To teach him a lesson – to change his attitude, his heart, to make him into something he isn’t. And I know he is not there because of his actions. His actions revealed his heart. I correct the action to get at the heart. God does the same with us. Now, if my son had realized his error and was truly repentant at something he did, why would I punish him? What need would there be for that? It doesn’t make sense to me. So why would God punish Jesus for our actions if we have repented? What is the point? This is where I get confused.
I’m throwing this out knowing it is likely to be controversial – so bear with me. I am truly wanting feedback on this – because I think it is important for us to know – esp ecially since in SGM we have endured so much Cross-centered guilt by focusing on indwelling sin and being taught to always be aware of our wicked hearts, etc. This guilt is the very reason Jesus died – so it makes no sense to continue feeling guilty for our sin when He died to take the guilt away! It is a doctrine of death, it does not lead to life. And yet this is the doctrine SGM teaches constantly.
Do you guys see the disconnect here?
Juli,
I just read your March 12th post. I missed it before. What great insight, that the words “puffed up” mean to be burdened. That is why I like my Amplified. The Greek is so hard to translate into its proper meaning, and the Amplified does it for me.
To be burdened is what the Pharisees placed upon the people. They, too, were burdened with the law, though they were also hypocrites. WE were burdened by all the traditions of men, taught as knowledge. Weren’t we attracted to these men because they seemed so knowledgable about scripture? I think I have to say yes for myself. What I realized later was that knowledge wasn’t what my heart desired. I desired to KNOW Jesus.
Thanks, Juli.
Remnant (I love that name!),
Can you explain a little more about what the Feast of Thanksgiving and Peace means? I would love to understand a little better. Thank you.
Hey Juli,
Did you read my above post? Do you happen to have the Greek word used for “puffed up”? Thanks. I’m compiling all these thoughts about the leaven in a file on my computer. I would love to look up the Greek myself, so I can include it in my file.
http://www.greekbiblestudy.org/gnt/main.do
Here’s a cool website, Canary & it’s free!
Sorry it has taken so long to reply. This took a bit of digging, and I didn’t want to post something inaccurate.
Ellie, thanks for the opinion.
Canary commented: I read that the Peace offering was given with leaven. Do you know anything more about what that offering was for? You know, the Thanksgiving offering of peace (I think is what it was called)? I ask because I want to more deeply understand why the leaven was pleasing to God in this offering, while it was not pleasing to Him during the Feast of the Unleaven bread (because of the Exodus – I get that).
My reply: Leviticus chapter 3 speaks about Peace Offerings. I don’t find anything in that text regarding leaven. From Fruchtenbaum (Manuscript 180, page 12): “This was a voluntary thanksgiving offering. It emphasized complete well being and harmony, not merely the absence of war. The uniqueness of this offering is that certain parts were burned on the Altar, but the rest was given back to the petitioner. The one who offered it got most of it back. This was the believer’s way of participating in the blessings of the fellowship of God.” Fruchtenbaum goes on to say, “As far as its typology is concerned, it typifies the value of Messiah’s death in terms of its communion. It typifies the Messiah’s procuring peace with God for the sinner (Rom 5:1). And it typifies the fellowship of believers with God, once again, the concept of communion.”
Meal Offerings are described in Leviticus 2 however, it is interesting to note that leaven is prohibited from these offerings (Lev 2:11). It is even more interesting to note that even though this offering is without blood, it was placed on a bloody altar, and therefore accompanied by blood. Fruchtenbaum (page 11) says of this offering, “As mentioned, this is the only offering which was a bloodless offering. However it was never offered apart from blood, but was normally accompanied by blood (Lev. 23:9-14; Num. 15:1-16; Ezra 7:17). Before the Meal Offering was placed upon the Altar, the Burnt Offering was given first. The Meal Offering was then placed upon the Burnt Offering, so that the Meal Offering always came in contact with blood.”
I cannot find any offerings where leaven is permitted.
Juli, you said: I’ve been taught Christ’s “sacrifice” met all three of these [payment of penalty, substitution, restitution]. But I don’t find much support in the NT for the penalty aspect in particular. Meaning, most scriptures that deal with Christ’s death are speaking to it accomplishing the ability for those with faith to have a clean conscience, and not even implying that punishment was even necessary…that by faith we escape even the NEED for punishment. Those who don’t live by faith will in fact be punished eternally. For their sin, and sin is any action that stems from what? Unbelief. It’s all about faith. Go figure!
My response: I’m not sure I follow all of what you are thinking. I think you are a far deeper thinker than I! But let me try to hear you and reply. Please dialogue with me if my understanding is in error.
Interesting point about not finding much in the NT supporting the penalty aspect of Christ’s sacrifice. I’ve done a bit of digging and have come up with the following (after taking lots of rabbit trails – wish we could be doing this across the table with a cup of tea):
1. Gal 3:13 – “Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us–for it is written, ‘CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE’ ”
Being dealt a curse is being dealt a punishment, is it not? If so, here we see Christ redeeming us from the specific punishment of the curse.
2. From the Old Testament we find Isaiah 53:5-8 – “But He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him, And by His scourging we are healed. All of us like sheep have gone astray, Each of us has turned to his own way; But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all To fall on Him. He was oppressed and He was afflicted, Yet He did not open His mouth; Like a lamb that is led to slaughter, And like a sheep that is silent before its shearers, So He did not open His mouth. By oppression and judgment He was taken away; And as for His generation, who considered That He was cut off out of the land of the living For the transgression of my people, to whom the stroke was due?”
The very life of Messiah bears out the witness to this verse. He was pierced, beaten, scourged. With that, the believer’s penalty for sin is remitted – “The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him.”
Does this count as a New Testament verse because of the literal way in which it is translated by the very life of Messiah?
3. 2 Cor 5:21 – “He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.”
Does this theological truth of imputation apply to penalty? Instead of me bearing the penalty and consequences for my sins, Jesus became sin for me so that I become righteous? In my life, Jesus exchanged my sin for his righteousness.
4. Rom 5:9 – “Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.”
The believer is delivered from God’s general wrath against sin through Jesus.
Again, Juli, I’m not at all sure that these things answer those things that you’ve been dwelling on.
Juli (a previous comment to you is awaiting moderation), you further your thoughts with this: so when we, by faith, draw near to God through Jesus, we are acting in the same way the people of faith in the OT did, in a way that pleased God. And it seems to me it had little or nothing to do with punishment for sins – it had EVERYTHING to do with the heart and repentance and a faith that resulted in action. For where there is no offense, there is no need for punishment.
My reply: I think you are absolutely correct that it is faith that pleases the Lord.
But don’t neglect that it is the content of our faith that is important: I have faith in God. Therefore I have faith that His Word is true. Therefore, I have faith that, if I were living as an Old Testament Saint (true believer), I would need to bring my bulls and goats as sacrifice for my sin. I would follow what the Lord had revealed to that point: the blood of bulls and goats was essential during the time that the Mosaic Law was in effect.
Today, as a New Testament believer, I have faith that the Lord is. I have faith that the Son of God offered Himself willingly, out of love for me, in substitution for me. While I deserve punishment for my sin, Jesus died in my place, giving to me not my just desserts, but His righteousness as my own. I have faith and my faith has content and that content is the TRUE gospel (1 Cor 15:4).
We, as humans, deserve punishment – death – eternal separation from God. But God made provision for that – IF one has the faith to believe it. The object of faith has always been God. The content of that faith has changed from time to time: under the Mosaic Law, the content of redemptive faith lay in the blood of bulls and goats, righteously sacrificed on the Temple altar in Jerusalem. Today, the content of our faith is in the Lord Jesus’ death, burial and resurrection (the TRUE gospel).
With that, I think I addressed points directed my way. Let me know if I missed something.
Oh, and really – if you disagree with me, that’s not going to ruffle my feathers – wait – Canary has the feathers. Er, I promise not to be snarky. Really.
Remnant,
Thank you so much for explaining about the thanksgiving offering. I find it interesting that the petitioner gets his offering returned to him. LIke he gets to share in this sacrifice…
The verse about leaven being offered as part of thanksgiving is Lev. 7:13: “With cakes of leavened bread he shall offer his sacrifice of thanksgiving with the sacrifice of his peace offerings.” In verse 13, part of the offering included unleavened cakes and wafers. So why was leavened bread required, too? That puzzles me.
Thanks for the site, Ellie, you google queen! I’ve added it to my favorites’ list.
I need to clarify – the puffed up in Corinthians DOES mean “haughty” – I’m not sure how I got that mixed up..but now it is bothering me..I will check my study to see where I got verses confused..but I needed to clarify it here so nobody was confused by my error – my apologies.
Remnant, I’d love to have a cup of tea with you and “muse” together..one of my favorites pastimes..
some thoughts – and I’m throwing these out for consideration, I’m not “set in stone” on any of this. Just thinking and writing out loud..which is fun
1) you mentioned the curse. What exactly IS the curse? Well, I’ve understood it to be death. Death is the curse of unbelief..so Christ becoming that curse (dying) released us from it. Where Oh death is your sting? etc..
2) I’m thinking there is some increased significance in the whole life and death pattern and how that plays into the blood sacrifice.
3) obedience and disobedience and how they are defined in Scripture is focusing completely on the ability and willingness of man to HEAR God and listen..not on actions. So sin, or how we understand sin, is ultimately unbelief, lack of faith. ANY action or behavior that stems from unbelief is sin. Some actions (like murder) will ALWAYS stem from unbelief. WHat exactly are we not believing here? WHo God is, who God says WE are, what God can do, etc..wrong beliefs in these areas is the same as unbelief – which lead to actions that are sinful.
I’m still thinking on this..but just offer that for now.
Now I want to slap my forehead and say, “Duh!” because I know that the Feast of Weeks (aka Pentecost) included two leavened loaves.
Here’s the basic “picture” of the Feast of Weeks: Two leavened cakes of completely equal proportions were offered to the Lord together in a wave offering.
Lev 2:12 speaks about this offering. There is a huge difference between this offering and the Meal Offerings: this one with the leaven is not offered on the altar – it is not burnt.
Lev 23:17 also speaks about this offering with further instruction that these loaves are to be waved before the Lord.
I made mention previously that the Spring Feasts of Israel were a foreshadow of the first advent of Messiah:
1. Feast of Passover: The Lamb is slain. Jesus was slain on the cross at the same moment as the Passover Lamb is slain in the Temple.
2. Feast of Unleavened Bread: Coming the day after the Passover, this Feast represents the Sinless Sacrifice (death) of Messiah.
3. Feast of First Fruits: Jesus is the First Fruit of the Resurrection. This day is the exact day Jesus arose from the dead.
4. Feast of Pentecost: This is the exact day that the disciples were gathered in the upper room when the Holy Spirit descended. With the giving of the Holy Spirit, the church was born. This is the day that those two leavened loaves were presented to the Lord as a wave offering. Just as the other three Feasts had very clear Messianic significance, so does this Feast: those two leavened loaves represent two people groups: Jews and Gentiles. Since the loaves are leavened, they do not represent the Sinless Christ. The two people groups, Jews and Gentiles, are now presented to God on EQUAL terms: Gentiles were no longer excluded from the presence of the Lord. The significance of the Feast of Weeks/Pentecost is that the two are now made into One Body by faith.
Want more information? See the Feast of Shavuot (Weeks/Pentecost): http://www.haydid.org/ff.htm
Juli, I have noone right now to sit and muse with me in real life. I miss that!
Your number one:
1) You mentioned the curse. What exactly IS the curse? Well, I’ve understood it to be death. Death is the curse of unbelief..so Christ becoming that curse (dying) released us from it. Where Oh death is your sting? etc..
My reply: *I* think the curse stems from Adam and Eve’s sin. The land was cursed. Adam and Eve were driven from the presence of the Lord.
Rev 22:1-4 (which I won’t type because it will pop up when you place your cursor over the link) states that there will be a time where the curse will be removed from the land (the verse describes the times of the Millennial Kingdom).
I do not think that the curse related only to that of the Mosaic Law: which only Israelites needed to adhere to and then only for a limited period of time (Jews are no longer obligated to obey the Mosaic Law – even unbelievers). Gentiles were never obligated to the Mosaic Law.
As to your number 2:
2) I’m thinking there is some increased significance in the whole life and death pattern and how that plays into the blood sacrifice.
Lev 17:11. Life is precious – what’s the word? Sacred! Life is sacred. God created life. To take a life, even that of an animal, is sorrowful. I agree with you that there is huge significance in the life/death pattern. God had to kill an animal to cover Adam and Eve when they sinned: He had to kill that which he lovingly created. Death is never easy. Our sin costs much – it costs a life. Ultimately, it cost Jesus His life. (Which he lovingly and voluntarily laid down for us because He wanted to!)
July, you said in your point 3:
3) obedience and disobedience and how they are defined in Scripture is focusing completely on the ability and willingness of man to HEAR God and listen..not on actions. So sin, or how we understand sin, is ultimately unbelief, lack of faith. ANY action or behavior that stems from unbelief is sin. Some actions (like murder) will ALWAYS stem from unbelief. WHat exactly are we not believing here? WHo God is, who God says WE are, what God can do, etc..wrong beliefs in these areas is the same as unbelief – which lead to actions that are sinful.
My reply: yes and yes and yes….unbelieving is unfaith. The content of faith in the Old Testament so many many times was this: The evil wicked one needed to believe two things about the Lord: That God existed and that there was ONE God. I wish I could put my finger on it, but there were times that an enemy king came to believe in the True God, but they never committed to Him ALONE – hanging onto the gods of his culture.
The great Jewish declaration from Deut: Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is One.
There is a God.
He stands alone.
If I can declare those things, I can then learn of Him and His ways. But all starts there.
That’s my take, anyway.
Remnant,
Thanks!:)
Juli,
Many times also, if the OT offering was two doves (birds), one’s neck was broken, slit, and the blood drained into a basin. The second bird was then dipped in the blood and given back to the petitioner (representing the spilled blood of the Messiah, covering us, thus bringing forgiveness and freedom)
When Hashem ( G-D, the Heavenly Father, King of the Universe) gave the law, HE knew there was NO way man could keep all of it, although this is what HE required, thus necessitating the need for the Messiah. HE also required that the blood sacrifice be a spotless, unblemished animal. Knowing that we, as man, could never keep all of the law, thus not being able to fulfill it for our freedom and salvation, HE told them of, and sent to us, Jesus, the spotless lamb for the perfect blood sacrifice.
Juli, I agree with you, that it is the heart of the matter that HE looks at. I believe that many of them in the OT, did their best to keep the law out of faith and belief in HIS word and promise, that the obedience would reunite them with HIM, as they had a true love and longing for their G-D.
I believe that because of the way He set the law forth, and the requirements of sacrifice HE made, JESUS had to die, and blood be shed for our redemption and freedom. Just as those of the OT believed that their sacrifices reunited them with HIM, JESUS’ death, paid that requirement in full, so that we would not live our lives in vain, trying desperatley to fulfill a law, that only G-D Himself could meet, as HE is the one who instituted it.
For me, what so many believers today forget , or are never told is that (please understand, I pray I am not being heretical here) without the Resurrection, what value did the Cross have. Since, only a spotless, unblemished blood offering could be accepted for atonement, and G-D HIMSELF, being the only one spotless and blameless for atonement to take place, the resurrection for me, proves HE is G-D, the Messiah, and the price paid once and for all.
To me, if I do not walk to the other side of the cross, experiencing the joy and freedom the resurrection brings me, I would be so overwhelmed with uncertainty, guilt and shame, seeing HIM hanging on that cross day in and day out. I would be reminded constantly of my sin that put HIM there, and have NO peace, joy or freedom. I hope you understand, I AM NOT negating the importance, blessing and selfless sacrifice HE made for me, but to not live in the freedom HIS death brought about, to me is telling HIM it was not enough.
Not too long ago, we had a sermon about the resurrection, and the statement was made, “there is no way we can partake of the grace of God provided by the cross, if we do not understand and live in the freedom and joy of the resurrection”!! WOW, that statement just reaffirmed to me (1. That I am not an heretic – whew) 2. That, we ARE to walk in freedom, joy and peace in our relationship with HIM; and not in guilt, shame, and condemnation. 3. That when we are taught the love of the sacrifice along with the blessing it brings, I find myself wanting and desiring more of HIM due to the knowledge of what G-D did for me, (dying & then RISING so I could be free)thus building on a love relationship between the two of us, rather than fearful, condemning interaction between a “lording” finger pointing, rejecting G-D.
I hope I haven’t caused confusion, I, along with you, want others to come to the understanding of that incredible, fulfilling, joyful relationship that HE has provided for us, rather than to live under the painful, shameful, guilt ridden one that others perpetrate on them.
MiMi
Mimi,
Thank you so much for your words above. I know Juli will respond when she can, but I wanted to pop in and say that you are NOT a heretic for saying the cross cannot be where we remain. You are right – Jesus proved He was the Messiah by rising from the dead. I think it is sad that we have to explain ourselves, that we have to say we do no negate what happened on the cross, because that just shows how teachings we sat under did not allow for the empty tomb, the risen Lord, who showed us that He had dealt with our sins. There was intense focus on sins, which led to intense control of our behavior. It did not lead to grace.
I wonder if you can answer a quesiton for me, as it seems from your post that you have a Jewish heritage. I am a bit confused about these verses:
”Jesus again speaks of a woman putting away three portions of flour with leaven (Luke 13:20-21) as being like the Kingdom of God. He speaks at least twice about the leaven being like the Kingdom of heaven (Matt. 13:33).”
Jesus is comparing the Kingdom of God with leaven. My understanding is that the Feast of the Unleaven Bread only lasts seven days. Obviously, leaven (as Remnant said) was not offered in the burnt offering. It seems that it was allowed to be used in the two loaves of bread given in the thanksgiving offering, and by the people when eating during the rest of the year. So, my thinking is that there are two types of leaven – leaven of the Pharisees, and leaven that compares to the Kingdom of God? Do you get this? I think I do, but I’m not sure if I’m right. I’d really appreciate your help. Thanks.
I also have to add that, learning about OT sacrifice, and that it was a forshadowing of Jesus, is so amazing to me. I’ve always thought that it is like a huge puzzle being put together by the Lord, and Jesus added the final pieces. It just underscores that He really is who He says He is!
Hey Juli,
I was very intrigued by your questions about the crucifixion as punishment. I stumbled onto some things. I never realized that some of my current beliefs originated from the understanding or interpretation of different individuals. I just have assumed so many things without researching them for myself. I wonder how much I believe that was taught to me–either through sermons or books–that isn’t exactly something I’d come up with through reading the Bible on my own. Anyway, I’m glad you brought that up. It’s got me thinking. If you have a chance, check this out (it may not help, just give you more questions, but it is interesting):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A.....tion_view)
Canary,
Unleavened bread has a beautiful and special meaning for believers. The Lord Christ Jesus was crucified on the cross at Golgotha on the day of Passover. He was then buried.. However, unlike all other mortals,, the body of Jesus (Yeshua) would not decay in the grave. There would be no decomposition of His body. God the Father would not “allow thine Holy One (His Son Jesus) to see corruption (Psalm 16:10; Acts 2:27). The Feast of Unleavened Bread proclaims that Christ’s physical body would not experience the ravages of death while in the grave; for He was sanctified (set apart) by God the Father.
For the Jew, this feast, Pesach, or Passover, reminds them of the swiftness they had to leave Egypt. They did not have time to add leaven to their bread, thus they had to take it a it was. Oddly enough, the lack of leavening….made it last longer, it did not decay before they were able to eat it. Thus giving them life on the perilous journey. Much like, the fact that JESUS’ body did not decay, thus through is resurrection and renewed life, we have the sustance available to us to make it through this earthly life until we ee HIM face to face.
Even the 10th plague for the Egyptians represents and foreshadows the death and resurrection of our Jesus. By painting the blood of the slaughtered lambs on the door posts (lentels), the Jews were “passed over” by the angel of death. The blood on the posts represented the blood of Jesus covering our hearts when we come to HIM, thus we are too “passed over” for eternal death, due to the shed blood and resurrection of our Savior. So very much of the OT and that covenant foreshadows and fortells the deity, promise and fulfillment of Christ’s coming.
Now to the verses you referenced. Just as so many things in this life, leaven can and does represent more than one thing. Because bread was such a vital “religious” part of the Jews life, I believe HE used it as an example to explain the power of HIS word and the gospel message. Leavened bread is part of the weekly Sabbath ritual for the Jews. It is used as a symbol for the sustance of life that Hashem made available to all through HIS creation of this world. Jesus, knowing that for a Jew not to have leaven, to make the special necessary Sabbath bread, would be a travesty for them, so using it as an example certainly get their attention!
I believe HE was telling them in these two verses that the word of G-D, like leaven, is so powerful, that it takes just a little for the word to spread. That only a few, speaking the truth of the word, can cause many to hear it eventually. WE should look at it in context too. Shortly before, he was speaking of the mustard seed, explaining that from that tiny seed, that is nothing, there appears to be not hope of fruition, but when planted in good soil, it grows a tree with many leaves; reaching out farther and wider than ever imagined when looking at that seed. Just as the gospel of Christ, though maybe spoken to a few, if within those few hearts, is fertile soil for the sowing of HIS word, the truth and gospel will grow and spread through these faithful full: thus the Kingdom of heaven is liken unto leaven, needing little for much to come of it…and remember, once leaven has taken hold, there is no way to remove it from the bread..just as once the Gospel is spoken, it too will grow…..to reach all nations….that HE promised
MiMi
Mimi,
Thank you so much! I was thinking the same from what I was reading, but wanted to be sure. You explain it all so well. Can I ask two more questions?
First, what does “Hashem” mean?
Second, Jesus was called the “bread of life”. Would that represent leaven or unleaven to a Jewish person?
I’m getting a real kick out of learning all this. It only solidifies my faith. How much more so it must for you, Mimi, who shares in the heritage of Israel.
One more thing: I notice that you do not use His name in your post. You spell it
G-D. Even as a Christian, do you still feel the reverance that is Jewish custom not to speak His name? I hope you don’t mind me asking. I feel like a sponge which is soaking up information, so that I can understand. Thank you!
One more thing: I find it interesting that leaven representing the Kingdom of Heaven, or the Gospel, is something that grows and spreads. In SGM, very little evangelism was done in a way that was successful. Not from what I saw. Not from what others have said on this site. They go into a city, plant a church, gathering up people who are already believers, for the most part. I don’t think any church plant was started because so many people were redeemed that SGM had to begin a new church. Hmmmmm…
Canary,
HASHEM – this is the name the Jews attribute to our heavenly Father, as they feel it is irreverant to speak HIS name G-D. The O in GOD represents the eternal, ongoing, never ending one, therefore, they won’t even write it. In the old days, of transcribing and writing the Torah, every time they got to the word GOD, they wrote it G-D, broke the writing instrument, and started with a new one. I certainly write and say the word GOD, but I find myself, when referring the the scripture in tying together the old and new covenant, and in sharing the insights and truths of all pointing to our Jesus, I am so in awe, that I still use the G-D… an old habit I guess.
To the Jew, Jesus being referred to the “Bread of Life” is not an acceptable term, as only G-D gives and sustains life, AND since JESUS is NOT G-D for them, HE would be neither, as both leavened and unleavened play vital and important roles in their lives rituals and traditions……….
MiMi
wow! This is some awesome discussion with you guys! I imagine if we lived closer we’d spend quite a bit of late night talking, drinking coffee, and sharing our thoughts..this is what I missed in SGM- the ability to THINK OUT LOUD and not have someone slam me for it or make me feel stupid for trying to figure out the wonderful mysteries of God and His truth. Which I fully believe we are to SEEK Him and SEEK truth and ask questions…something I stopped doing in SGM because I felt sinful doing so.
It’s great to be able to do that here!
I will respond when I have more time…but just wanted to say you all have me thinking now..which I love to do!! It’s like Christmas on the Refuge…hehe
Mimi,
Thanks so much. I wonder, did Jesus calling himself the “bread of life” offend the people He was speaking too? He did quite alot of offending, such as “eat of my flesh and drink my blood”. He lost many followers after that one.
Mimi, you’ve been such a help. I REALY appreciate it!
Juli,
Yes, my brain is working overtime trying to understand it all. Parables are hard enough. Then you get into the meanings of such things as leaven or seeds or fruit (like Ellie was explaining). And, as Mimi said, some things can sound the same and have different meanings. That is what puzzled me about the leaven. Now, after Mimi’s wonderful explanation, I get it!
I have other questions. I want to understand what the leaven of the Pharisees was. I know hypocrisy and corruption has been mentioned. I’m going to see what else is there. I feel very strongly that this will help me, at least, to understand where things went wrong in my SGM church that would drive people away.
We went to the most wonderful conference last weekend on the Father’s Love by James Jordan of Father Heart Ministries. We were saturated in the Love of the Father through wonderful worship, sound teaching and Spirit filled prayer. I found this teaching on the internet and want to share it with each of you. James’ teaching on the Father’s love has been life changing for me, even in these last few days. So wonderful to think of the fact that the Father is loving us right now! Hallejuah!!
http://event.cbn.com/spiritual.....ntID=90080
Canary,
I know the following list is long, but thought it might be helpful. The definition for self-righteousness according to webster is “more righteous, moral, in one’s own opinion and mind”. The following references are to the pharasees being hypocrites. Yet, at the root of it all, in order to be a hypocrite, isn’t one really self righteous in believing that they are above reproach in their behavior, and because they are, who they are, they are immune to the opinion of others?
Could this perhaps be the leaven of the Pharasees? If so, it may answer alot of your questions about how things got to where they are.
MiMi
“So when you give to the poor, do not sound a trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, so that they may be honored by men Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full.
Matthew 6:1-3 (in Context) Matthew 6 (Whole Chapter)
Matthew 6:5
“When you pray, you are not to be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and on the street corners so that they may be seen by men Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full.
Matthew 6:4-6 (in Context) Matthew 6 (Whole Chapter)
Matthew 6:16
[ Fasting; The True Treasure; Wealth (Mammon) ] ” Whenever you fast, do not put on a gloomy face as the hypocrites do, for they neglect their appearance so that they will be noticed by men when they are fasting Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full.
Matthew 6:15-17 (in Context) Matthew 6 (Whole Chapter)
Matthew 15:7
“You hypocrites, rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you:
Matthew 15:6-8 (in Context) Matthew 15 (Whole Chapter)
Matthew 22:18
But Jesus perceived their malice, and said, “Why are you testing Me, you hypocrites?
Matthew 22:17-19 (in Context) Matthew 22 (Whole Chapter)
Matthew 23:13
[ Eight Woes ] ” But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut off the kingdom of heaven from people; for you do not enter in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.
Matthew 23:12-14 (in Context) Matthew 23 (Whole Chapter)
Matthew 23:14
[" Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you devour widows' houses, and for a pretense you make long prayers; therefore you will receive greater condemnation.]
Matthew 23:13-15 (in Context) Matthew 23 (Whole Chapter)
Matthew 23:15
“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you travel around on sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.
Matthew 23:14-16 (in Context) Matthew 23 (Whole Chapter)
Matthew 23:23
” Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others.
Matthew 23:22-24 (in Context) Matthew 23 (Whole Chapter)
Matthew 23:25
“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you clean the outside of the cup and of the dish, but inside they are full of robbery and self-indulgence.
Matthew 23:24-26 (in Context) Matthew 23 (Whole Chapter)
Matthew 23:27
” Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which on the outside appear beautiful, but inside they are full of dead men’s bones and all uncleanness.
Matthew 23:26-28 (in Context) Matthew 23 (Whole Chapter)
Matthew 23:29
” Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous,
Matthew 23:28-30 (in Context) Matthew 23 (Whole Chapter)
Matthew 24:51
and will cut him in pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 24:50-51 (in Context) Matthew 24 (Whole Chapter)
Mark 7:6
And He said to them, “Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:’ THIS PEOPLE HONORS ME WITH THEIR LIPS,BUT THEIR HEART IS FAR AWAY FROM ME.
Mark 7:5-7 (in Context) Mark 7 (Whole Chapter)
Luke 12:56
“You hypocrites! You know how to analyze the appearance of the earth and the sky, but why do you not analyze this present time?
Luke 12:55-57 (in Context) Luke 12 (Whole Chapter)
Luke 13:15
But the Lord answered him and said, “You hypocrites, does not each of you on the Sabbath untie his ox or his donkey from the stall and lead him away to water him?
Luke 13:14-16 (in Context) Luke 13 (Whole Chapter)
Connie,
for some reason that link is redirecting to sgmrefuge.com.
I got the right address by right clicking on the link which brings up the properties window, and then copy & paste the cbn address from the bottom of the properties window.
Mimi,
Thank you, again. You have saved me a lot of book searching. I’m the old fashioned, find my huge condordance and look it up type person.
Okay, so here’s what I’m thinking. When leaders spoke of love (the small amount of times that they did), I found that their actions did not match. This would be hypocritical. The words slid off the tongue so easily, yet how quickly were relationships that had lasted for years shattered over disagreement with leadership decisions? That has bothered me for years (I am a 12 year recovering Pharisee).
I saw this happen with relationships I thought would last a lifetime. Larry and Doris T. splitting from CJ was one of them. I won’t mention the others, as they are not “celebrities” in SGM. However, I know of enough splits, even amongst families, to see that “love” was less important to the leadership than following them without question. And, if a man is pastoring a flock, yet puts himself above or before the sheep, this is not a true “shepherd”, because he is not walking in love. That, too, would be hypocrisy.
Matt.23:22-24 is also very applicable to what others here have witnessed:
” Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others.”
Where was justice, mercy, and faithfulness to those who fell by the wayside beneath the authoritarian ways of SGM? Where was it in my own heart when I was following them? We ought to all ask these questions of leadership, especially in the more serious experiences of Noel, Esther, and HappyMom.
I know that, the day the Lord showed me how much of a Pharisee I had been, I could sense his great disappointment. Thank the Lord He has since set me free from those ways. I would never want to grieve him that way, again. I wasn’t even a Big Wig in SGM, yet the Lord showed mercy to me as he revealed the state of my heart to me. Surely, he must wish to reveal to the hearts of some of the leaders if they, too, are following the hypocritical ways of the Pharisees, if there is truly leaven in their hearts?
Unless they just cannot hear, or are not listening. I say this to all SGM leaders (indeed to any church leader anywhere), the welfare of your flock depends on your listening to the Lord, and on the state of your own heart.
” But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut off the kingdom of heaven from people; for you do not enter in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.”
Matthew 23:12-14 (in Context) Matthew 23 (Whole Chapter)
I may say this because I was once there, not entering the beautiful kingdom of heaven in my own life. In my own little way, I was also keeping others from entering, by my actions. The leaven had grown and grown within me, til it choked out any grace that might have been there. Thank the Lord for His mercy! Thank Him for His kindness in showing me who I was. I thank Him for setting me free from the bondage of slavery to ideas that were not His.
I also thank Him because He can do this for all of SGM, as well.
Just thinking online.
Ellie, oh google queen, you said:
Connie,
for some reason that link is redirecting to sgmrefuge.com.
I got the right address by right clicking on the link which brings up the properties window, and then copy & paste the cbn address from the bottom of the properties window.
Huh? I want to hear Connie’s link (Hi, Connie!), but my whittle bird bwain is so confwuesed…
I would like to add to my 11:58 am post: I asked these questions and ponder the answers because of love. That is my motivation. I wish to be clear on this. I love God’s people, and wish them all to walk in the same freedom and grace that many of us have discovered, having left SGM.
ok, silly bird. click on her link.
where does it take you?
I’ll wait.
Ellie,
Her link took me to SGMrefuge. Scratching my head, here. I’ll wait…
Well, Ellie, I tried every which way I could figure to find the link. Maybe you can just re-post it here, like a good, little google queen. This tweetie would be most appreciative! Hugs.
The Quizzler is having a hard time too. Maybe this will work:
http://event.cbn.com/spiritual.....ntID=90080
So sorry for the trouble! Hope this works. If not go to fatherheart.net, scroll to bottom of page and press enter on pictures of James Jordan being interviewed by Gordon Robertson. It is well worth finding. Thanks Mr./Mrs. Quizzler (hummm)
http://event.cbn.com/spiritual.....ntID=90080
When making a comment, you can highlight a word, such as “here”, highlight that word by mousing over it, then click on what looks like a link of chain in the tool bar. You can then add the web address in the window that pops up.
Here’s an example…
Quizzler get’s another “F”
Noooooooooooo, may it never be that the Quizzler would get an “F.” Jim must be grading on a curve
OK, trying this: click here. By the way, this is a great web site (IMHO) because I actually know the owner of it.
I say Quizzler’s “F” is for FUN!
Canary,
Yeah that’s probably what it is
Mimi,
I hope you are still reading, because I have two more questions for you. I understand if you won’t answer publicly, but it would be great if you would (if not, Jim knows my email address – you could answer me that way).
What does the “cross” mean to a Jewish person?
What does the “cross” mean to a Messianic Jew?
I’m sure I could find these things out by research, but I wanted to know from the words of a person who has the experience. I hope I’m not being too personal. Thanks, Mimi.
I’m hoping Mimi will read this and be able to answer my questions. I have gotten such insights from you, Mimi. You’ve helped me understand much about the leaven.
If you can’t help, I understand. I’ll go do my research, and grow my bird brain a little more.
hey all..I haven’t had time to respond, but read a bit..will respond soon! just wanted to pop in..see who’s still “here” reading and writing…
Canary ,
The Cross to a Jewish person means nothing more than the form of accepted execution during the time of JESUS’ death. Since HE did not rise from the dead (a false story circulated by HIS followers), then the cross had absolutely NO meaning or purpose of consequence to the Jewish people.
For the completed Jew, it is interesting how the cross is looked at. For most of them, it represents the tool, or vehicle used to bring them to freedom, BUT it is only part of the completed Gospel, which is the fulfillment of all the prophecies that they look at. THEY look at the fact, that JESUS experienced and fulfilled what was fortold as far as HIS suffering in Isaiah 9. They rejoice in HIS resurrection because it proves HE is their Messiah, thus making their salvation possible. The Messianic JEW, many times, most times actually, rather than celebrate Easter, celebrates the Passover as a believer telling of HIS fulfilled promise, equating their “Passover” from lost and eternal death, to eternal life with HIM.
I think the best way to describe how the completed Jew sees the cross is that what they see first and foremost is the completion of the prophecies and HE who fulfilled them. Then, they look at how it was accomplished, rejoicing all the time in the WHO of this great gift and miracle, and then the how.
I look at it kind of like this. It seems that many focus on the “kiss” that Judas gave Jesus as the damming act in his life. When in reality to me, the idea and act of betrayal is what I see that had to take place for our freedom to ensue. Any sign chosen , just as any type of prosecution, would have done the job, but the fact that he betrayed, just as our Lord chose to set us free, AND then the Father raise HIM up, is the actual completion of HIS choice. The cross did not raise HIM up, but the act of willingness to die, so HE could be raised up tells the WHOLE story for me.
In celebrating the “whole” gospel, the Messianic Jew recognizes, honors and celebrates the Trinity. They always refer to G-D, as the Creator of the Universe, Father of all Living things; Giver of Life and sustance. (something I believe we take very much for granted) Jesus of course is the Messiah, the chosen one, redeemer of our souls. And, the Holy Spirit, as in Isaiah 9:6 is spoken of as our Wonderful Counselor, one who brings us to knowledge of The Creator and Messiah. Many times through the years, I have heard the term “we need to look at and be aware of the whole counsel of G-D. Well, they look at the whole being of who GOD is. Just as we should look at, practice and believe in the whole Gospel, they take it one step further, realizing that without, Father , Son, and Holy Spirit, non of this could have taken place at all. They most certainly have a reverence that we, as most believers, tend not to have
Doesn’t mean I am right, just how I see it. Hope this helps and doesn’t confuse.
MiMi
Thank you so much, Mimi. How my little Canary’s heart is singing because of your post!
You wrote:
“Many times through the years, I have heard the term “we need to look at and be aware of the whole counsel of G-D. Well, they look at the whole being of who GOD is. Just as we should look at, practice and believe in the whole Gospel, they take it one step further, realizing that without, Father , Son, and Holy Spirit, non of this could have taken place at all. They most certainly have a reverence that we, as most believers, tend not to have.”
Oh my goodness, that is what I’ve been experiencing. That is what I’ve been trying, in my own little way, to explain! We have the gosepel as our foundation, but we need to move on into KNOWING the wholeness of who God is. The fact that He is three persons is amazing enough, and mindboggling. How can anyone stay focused on an inanimate object (a symbol of death) to find their daily gratefulness for the Lord, when focusing on His actual BEING is what really causes us to grow in joy, peace and faith?! It is the KNOWLEDGE of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit that believers should grow in.
Also, the fact that Jesus, as you said, made a choice to sacrifice Himself is a quality in God that we can explore. Not the cross itself (please, no offense inteneded to anyone!) but His willingess to hang there, when He could have, at any time, gotten down all by Himself!
These thoughts, exploring the nature of who God is, and why Jesus did what He did, excite me. Love grows within me. It didn’t all begin and end at the cross. In SGM, we did not get to go on to learn these wonderful things about our magnificent Lord! I am more and more firmly believing that simply teaching belivievers that “we will never move away from the cross” is great error. One cannot grow into spiritual maturity by remaining fixated on an object of death. I want to be fixated on the One who died, rose, walked around to show He had risen, and then ascended. I want to be looking to the sky, waiting, watching, for His return. If it happens in my life time, I wanna be one of the first to say, “Hey, look! It’s Jesus coming back!!!”
Okay, now I’m thinking about the oil in the virgins lamps – who had oil and was ready for the bridegroom, and who didn’t. What does that mean to us? Who will be ready? Who will have faith when He returns? Off I go to my humongous concordance…
Thank you, Mimi!
Uh oh, I’m stuck in moderation…testing, testing, one, two, three…
If we were meant to hang out at the cross….
….why did the body get buried?
….why did the Resurrection occur?
….why did the Holy Spirit come?
….why did the Apostles preach to thousands immediately following with great joy and signs and wonders?
….why did the missionary journeys?
….why did they not sit and mourn over their sin at the physical and literal place of the cross?
….why did the Lord give the command “GO! and make disciples…”
A partial Gospel is no gospel. It’s like trying to bake a cake with only flour. Without the rest, the eggs and baking soda, it’ll never resemble a cake. Without the burial and miraculous resurrection, there is NO gospel message for the Gospel is GOOD news, according to the Word, not sad, pathetic and mournful. The Gospel is JESUS centered, not ME and my sin centered.
It is leading the people astray to not include the WHOLE story. They leave out the Good news. How can that be right?
Good questions, Remnant. I can say, through my own experience, that focusing on SIN was paralyzing and put me into a helpless state of self-absorption. Now that I’m free from living under that sort of teaching (which, to me, was like leaven that grew and choked my spirit), I have joy and peace, even contentment. These fruits I did not have before the mercy of the Lord showed me the errors I was living. The gospel is my foundation, but there is so much more in knowing God! As Mimi put it, “they (Messianic Jews) look at the whole being of who GOD is.” That is what I want in my life – to know Him as completely as I can while on this earth.
Doesn’t the first point in the apostle’s creed go something like this? Why are we here? To know God, and enjoy Him forever. I think that is what it says. I’ll go look it up.
Whoops, wrong – it isn’t the apostle’s creed. Now where did I read that little ditty? We are to know God, and enjoy Him forever. Memory, don’t fail me now! Of course, isn’t that what we will be doing for all eternity?
Well, memory (and research) has failed me. I know I’ve read something like that before, but just can’t find the source. Sorry. Unless someone out there knows what I’m talking about – that we are to know God and enjoy Him (or worship Him) forever…
If I may continue to converse with myself online…hee-hee…I found it! It is from the Westminster Catechism, written in 1643.
. What is the chief end of man?
A. Man’s chief end is to glorify God, and to enjoy him forever.
Thank you. Even Miss Queen of Googling (good morning, Ellie!) couldn’t have done better. Oh wait, she would provide a link. Haven’t learned how to do that. Ho-hum, me and my bird brain…
Remnant
Great stuff, however, do I detect an effort to usurp the Quizzler here?
Canary,
You are so right on the sin focus thing. That’s why you are singing on top of the cage and the Cat is unhappily confined in the cage.
the reason that SGM or any church in history focuses on sin, inability to overcome sin, or uses guilt is because they want control and power over you. There is no difference between what churches do and what governments do.
Keep the people ignorant by controlling the media/propaganda/educational input
Keep the people thinking they are inept through doctrines/teachings that will result in them feeling inadequate, and therefore increasing their inability and unwillingness to “revolt” against you
Keep the people dependent on you by ever reminding them of their position vs your own
how does this translate into SGM? Simple.
Keep the sheep thinking they are totally depraved and wicked.
Encourage them to think you stand in the very stead of God.
Remove their ability to think for themselves.
Create an environment that fosters dependence on leaders.
Encourage collective thinking and discourage individual identity or ability to reason.
Over time, all of the above rob us of our joy, and our peace. We begin having a crisis of faith, as we feel more and more out of control – and we are – we have no control over our own lives or faith anymore. These teachings and methods always result in a break down, eventually, and the fruit bears out. For some it takes longer than others. The key is the ability of the individual person to think, ask questions for themselves, and allow themselves to move outside the boundaries established. The more they do this, the more they are treated with contempt – it is the same in governments. Think about it.
Remnant ……………………. (or should I call you The Quizzler II)?
Very insightful and appropriate questions!
You said……..”The Gospel is JESUS centered, not ME and my sin centered. ”
The fact of the matter is, that when I continue to focus on my sin…………..it’s still really all about me.
N.S.L.B.
Quizzler, May I ask you a question? You have been signing your posts, N.S.L.B. Would you please explain? Many thanks.
Bowing my head in embarrassment: I am in no way trying to usurp The Quizzler. It’s just that when things don’t make sense to me, I have questions. You understand, I’m sure.
And, Canary, even I (a Jew), could have told you Westminster Confession. Shucks. Wish you hadn’t found it. Wanted to show off! (But, please, no quizzes on any more of it. That’s the total extent of my Westminster knowledge base.)
I think MiMi is right. As saved Jews, we are truly in a blessed position (oh, not spiritually superior to a saved Gentile, let me finish my sentence….) BECAUSE we have NO PRECONCEIVED notions about Jesus.
What we learn about our Messiah comes as a surprise to us. We are sponges, soaking it all in. We as Jews, seek a sign, while Gentiles seek knowledge. 1 Cor 1:22. To leave Jesus at the cross ain’t no sign. It is the burial and resurrection, after 3 days that is the SIGN. It is the resurrection that makes a Jew KNOW without a shadow of a doubt that Jesus is the promised Messiah. Many people died on crosses. Only one arose from the dead.
And I do think that as Jews, we do feel a bit of an intrinsic responsibility to preserve the whole of the truth. This doesn’t come as a matter of pride but of calling and responsibility….for to the Jews belong the preservation of the Word. The Jews are the authors of the Bible (yes, even Dr. Luke is a Jew for he uses too many Jewishisms to be a Gentile), the Jews perserved the writings with very tedious and methodical techniques.
[All this written with great saddness, too, because there is a strong false belief growing within the Messianic movement which teaches there is a way of salvation apart from Jesus. ]
Remnant, you wrote: All this written with great saddness, too, because there is a strong false belief growing within the Messianic movement which teaches there is a way of salvation apart from Jesus.
I had no idea. Does this belief within the Messianic movement really have any traction at all?
Amazing. And sad.
Remnant,
Interesting! If you don’t mind my asking, what was your “conversion” like? What was it like to have a revelation of Jesus as your Messiah? I can only imagine how all the dots connected in your mind, after having understood the Jewish religion during your life. I have learned through reading the OT, and find myself amazed, but sorta like looking at it from the outside.
I think, because this is the “moving on” section of the blog, that one of the ways I have been moving forward in my faith is to understand the “big picture”, to see life from God’s perspective (not always easy!). There is still so much more of the story to be completed. Talking to our Jewish friends here has helped me to remember that this life isn’t just about me (my sin, sin focus, sin digging, or even the cross). It isn’t just about my walk with Jesus. This life is a journey that began so long ago. We are a teeny part of this big picture that will one day result in the return of our Lord Jesus, the rolling up of the earth and the heavens, the creation of a New Jerusalem, the Day of Judgement, and spending eternity in the presence of our Father.
Also, Remnant, you are correct to remind us as well that the Jewish people have kept the scriptures pure for us throughout the ages. The Monks of the middle ages continued this with the NT. Unfortunately, the church at large through the years has intrepreted wrongly how we are suppose to look as the bride of Christ (blame that on the leaven) in some ways. I have felt for so long that the Gospel must have the dust of the ages shaken off it, that we must find and maintain its purity. Remaining at the cross is one of those issues that keep the gospel from being preached in its fullness. Am I right? I know that I had to leave those teachings behind in order to move on into maturity in the Lord (not that I ever forget them!). There is so much more to the fullness of knowing Christ, His Father, and our Great Comforter. That fullness of the Being of God is what Mimi said that Messianic Jews have such a better grasp of.
Yes. The false teaching is gaining strength as we speak. If the Messianic Movement isn’t fully encompassed, it is only a matter of time (except for a few who will NOT bow to this false teaching, including the faithful congregation around the block from CLC – Son of David). This false belief teaches that “all Israel will be saved.” Period. Apart from Jesus.
The true context of the scripture is that in the END times, all Israel will be saved. That happens AFTER 2/3 of the Jews have been killed off by the tribulations. The 1/3 left alive ALL repent and believe in Jesus and THEREFORE they are saved.
Verses:
2/3 of Israel will be killed: Zech 13:8
All Israel will be saved: Rom 11:26 (Notice when this will happen: when the Deliverer comes – at the Second Advent)
All Jews alive will call upon the One who was pierced: Zech 12:10 (Here they repent of their national sin of the rejection of Jesus the Messiah on the basis of demon possession – their sin which resulted in the destruction of the Temple.)
Read the whole in context: Zech 12-13
I highly recommend this article to you. It does a great job answering the issues facing the Messianic movement today.
I want to add that I look at men like CJ, and the Big Guys, thinking, “Am I wrong in challenging what they are preaching? I’m no theologian.” Yet, I can read my bible, I’ve been to college, and I’ve sat under doctrinal teaching for nearly 20 years. I can think. I’ve read the OT and NT many times. When it comes to living out my faith, I could no longer remain under SGM teaching and survive, spiritually. It was so unbalanced that, for me to remain, would have been death to my burgeoning faith. To be free from the sin digging (which I believe is leaven) has given my heart so much room to know more of the fullness of Christ, to live in joy, and peace that surpasses understanding. I am no longer a fearful, timid miss much afraid, after years of trying to deal with that amidst the sin teaching. I have to say that the proof is indeed within the pudding. Did any of you see this happen in your own lives when you finally left your controlling church?
Disclaimer: I realize that there are exceptions within SGM.
Canary,
You need NOT apologize, that which you have learned is from the Holy Spirit, not theologians. Consider the following:
1 Corinthians 2:1-16 And when I came to you, brethren, I did not come with superiority of speech or of wisdom, proclaiming to you the testimony of God. [2] For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified. [3] I was with you in weakness and in fear and in much trembling, [4] and my message and my preaching were not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, [5] so that your faith would not rest on the wisdom of men (theologians), but on the power of God.
[6] Yet we do speak wisdom among those who are mature; a wisdom, however, not of this age nor of the rulers of this age, who are passing away; [7] but we speak God’s wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory; [8] the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it they would not have crucified the Lord of glory; [9] but just as it is written, “Things which eye has not seen and ear has not heard, and which have not entered the heart of man, all that God has prepared for those who love him.”
[10] For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God. [11] For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God. [12] Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God, [13] which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom (theologians), but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words. [14] But a natural man {even a Christian thinking with human understanding} does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. [15] But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one. [16] For who has known the mind of the Lord, that he will instruct Him? But we have the mind of Christ.
A previous comment in reply to Juli (5:26) is awaiting moderation because I used links.
Canary, my salvation came after great sadness and loss in my life. I lost my dad at a young age. I lost my sister after a long two-year fight with cancer, in which she lost her leg. She was all of 19 when she died. I had just finished my first year of college. It was nigh on impossible to think about the future and life when so deep in mourning.
I had a boyfriend at the time. A catholic. His sister died before mine did, in a tragic New Year’s Eve crash. The following spring, his mother was saved (eventually his father, too) during the great Charismatic Renewal of the Catholic Church in the 70′s. She was a wise woman. Somehow she’d gotten hold of literature explaining the Jewishness of Jesus, which she left on her coffee table for me to read. My saddened heart was ready to hear.
It was during the winter break, 6 months after the loss of my sister, one year after the tragic car crash, that I lay in bed. I cried out in my first heart-felt prayer, “God, if Jesus is the Jewish Messiah, I have to know!” Immediately. Immediately, the scales of blindness fell off my eyes and I saw Jesus. He was standing at the foot of my bed. I had gotten my miracle. 1 Cor 1:22. (I am weak. I needed the miracle.) From that moment, I never once doubted nor wavered in this belief. I did not know the whole gospel until several months later (it was these following months that I went to TAG). But I do believe that my belief on the Messiahship of Jesus, in that moment, I was saved.
I have since come to learn that my experience of “seeing” Jesus is not unique amongst Jewish believers.
I have not asked for a sign since (in case anyone was wondering). I don’t need one any longer. I wasn’t even asking for a sign then. I just got one. I don’t believe in seeking signs. The Word is sufficient to the Christian life. Signs and wonders are for unbelievers, imho (not saying that life is always smooth and easy, but the Holy Spirit leads and guides and comforts).
Anyway, Canary, I think you are right. We need the big picture. To camp out at the cross is so wrong in so many ways! Christ came to give us ABUNDANT life. Oh, please, Canary, don’t get me started. Smile. I hate the false gospel of death and sin. I think you do well to move on.
Good verses, G.D. Thanks!
I have two posts in moderation. Unless this one makes three.
Canary, Juli..
Following are various translations of Rom 8: 34
They ALL refer to the resurrection as completing the sacrifice, and a couple even place a strong inference to placing it above and making it necessary for the sacrifice to be valid… Even Matthew Henry in his commentary (PUBLISHED IN 1706) states about Rom. 8:34. “it is Christ that died. By the merit of His death he paid our debt and the surety’s payment is a good plea to an action of debt. It is Christ, an able all-sufficient Savior. His resurrection: YEA RATHER, THAT HAS RISEN AGAIN. This is a much greater encouragement, for it is a convincing evidence that divine justice was satisfied by the merit of His death. HIS RESURRECTION WAS HIS ACQUITTANCE, IT WAS THE LEGAL DISCHARGE. THEREFORE, THE APOSTLE (PAUL) MENTIONS IT WITH A “YEA, RATHER.” IF HE HAD DIED, AND NOT RISEN AGAIN, WE WOULD HAVE BEEN WHERE WE WERE.”
YOU MAY NOW STAND FOR THE HALLALUJAH CHORUS!!!!
Just thought you would like it.
MiMi
Rom
KJV - Rom 8:34 -
Who [is] he that condemneth? [It is] Christ that died, yea rather, that is risenagain, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
© Info: - King James Version 1769 Info
NKJV - Rom 8:34 -
Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.
© Info: - New King James Version © 1982 Thomas Nelson
NLT - Rom 8:34 -
Who then will condemn us? Will Christ Jesus? No, for he is the one who died for us and was raised to life for us and is sitting at the place of highest honor next to God, pleading for us.
© Info: - New Living Translation © 1996 Tyndale Charitable Trust
NIV - Rom 8:34 -
Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died–more than that, who was raised to life–is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us.
© Info: - The Holy Bible, New International Version© 1973, 1978, 1984 International Bible Society
ESV - Rom 8:34 -
Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us.*
Footnote:
* Or Is it Christ Jesus who died… for us?
© Info: - English Standard Version © 2001 Crossway Bibles
Remnant, your post gave me chills! I have read that Muslims also have such a vision and sign during their conversions – and it is more typical than not. Isn’t He good to give us what We need to believe? He doesn’t have to – but He does.
I’m hearing the music, Mimi! He is risen!!!
Remnant,
Hang in there. Some of us have been stuck in moderation this weekend. Your posts will show up!
Remanant,
I’ve read your 5:47 post. What a beautiful revelation you had! I have no doubt that you saw the Lord, because it resulted in your salvation and faith in Him.
I’m so sorry you suffered such grief. Thank you for sharing your experience with all of us.
I’m wondering something. My ex-pastor must have known the full gospel. He certainly knew the bible (he was one who’d gone through seminary, not just the PC). Why did he (and later on many of the SGM churches) feel the need to settle at the cross? Why is that so appealing to this organization? Why preach an incomplete gospel? Why preach the gospel to believers? Oh well, maybe this isn’t a subject for “moving on”. I just wish I could understand why.
Sorry, Mimi and Remnant. My gentile genes are showing (signs verses wisdom
).
Would you dear saints please pray for my brother David who is in the hospital with pneumonia and septicemia? Thank you so much. He has a dear wife and 4 children who need prayer also.
LOL Canary. You can’t be a bird of a different stripe. (Did I just mix metaphors?)j
Canary, you can’t figure this out, I’m sure. Maybe it was easier to follow than fight. Maybe he was persuaded that he was wrong. Maybe he is under conviction for this change of mind and/or focus.
Leave him behind. Move on, dear Canary. Take your tweet and sing a new song. A beautiful song. He is risen indeed! He loves you. He has made you a new creation, the old is gone, the new is come. You are washed and His Holy Spirit lives in you. Go and bear fruit.
Yes, Connie.
Father we pray for Connie’s brother, David, who is going through a very serious medcal problem. We pray that you will touch his body and those attending to him in a supernatural way. We also pray for his wife as she looks on helplessly; we pray for comfort and faith to be gifted to her by you, and may this reminder of mortality remind us all of who we are and how precious the gift of life is. Father touch David’s life in a healing way, as you see fit and for your glory. We cannot ask for more!
Amen, G.D. Connie, I’m praying, too. Please keep us updated. Big wing cuddles to you!
Remnant,
Thanks. Good advice. One day, when it is all over, we will know everything. I am filled with questions. In heaven, I’ll be yanking on His robe (if we wear robes) asking, ”Lord, why did you put a big red spot on Jupiter? How can you possibly know all our names? How can you name and remember all the stars in the universe? Why did you make the sky blue? Why did you let the universe continue to expand? And what DID happen to the dinosaurs?”
Not one of those questions will have anything to do with sin. Now there is an eternal thought for you…
Hey Canary,
I haven’t been commenting lately (but once, I think), but following along in these discussions–and benefiting. Your question at 7:14 about why SGM churches would settle at the cross got me thinking about CJ, of course, and how he promotes the idea in his book, Humility. Maybe his explanation there about “mortifying pride” (isn’t that sort of an oxymoron?) would answer your question somewhat. I’ll quote a bit for you…
“For me, the most consistently helpful item on the list [of practical ways I have found to weaken pride and cultivate humility--to help me tremble at His Word and help me stay focused on pursuing true greatness] is this: Reflect on the wonder of the cross of Christ. I believe this will be the most important habit and practice for you as well. To truly be serious and deliberate in mortifying pride and cultivating greatness [humility], you must each day survey the wondrous cross on which the Prince of Glory died.”
He goes on to quote John Owen as saying, “Fill your affections with the cross of Christ that there may be no room for sin.”
And then Martyn Lloyd-Jones: ”There is only one thing I know of that crushes me to the ground and humiliates me to the dust, and that is to look at the Son of God, and especially contemplate the cross….Nothing else can do it. When I see that I am a sinner…that nothing but the Son of God on the cross can save me, I’m humbled to the dust….Nothing but the cross can give us this spirit of humility.”
Now I agree with you completely Canary, I think you know. So I don’t put these quotes here to debate the issue, but to offer up the possible explanation for why they feel that they’re doing the right thing in staying at the cross. In my opinion, CJ/SGM may be misunderstanding Owen and Lloyd-Jones because it is one thing to know that I need to remember what Christ suffered for me, but it’s another thing entirely to make that central (but I could be wrong about Owen and Lloyd-Jones as I have read very little of them). It seems like CJ is saying that because he has such a great desire to grow in holiness, he’s going to do what he believes is the best thing to do in order to make that happen–focus on the cross.
This has been something that has stood out to me since I had my eyes opened about SGM–that it seems like the most important goal in life, to SGM, is pursuing holiness. If that’s the case, then it follows that they would make central whatever they believed to have the greatest impact on that goal. But, as I think I’ve mentioned on here before, we cannot produce the fruit of the Holy Spirit in our hearts.
The more I’ve studied about sanctification, the more I’ve come to believe that growth happens best in our lives when our eyes are off ourselves and instead directed in faith towards God. Faith that He’ll do as He promised (Romans 8:29), for one.
Anyway, I wanted to offer those thoughts from the big guy of SGM on why they focus on the cross. I do think it’s another method for pursuing holiness–actually, THE method, to CJ. If God were the pursuit (John 14:6) and there was fear of Him over fear of man (or church organization), then the cross would be one part of the WHOLE gospel message, and all the other various truths of the Scripture that seem to be lacking from the teaching wouldn’t be ignored (like they seem to be).
Bree,
Thank you SO much. My dear friend, Remnant has advised me to move on from this question, to go out and bear fruit. Now I can do this with ease (’cause I sorta got an answer – hee-hee). I remember all the talk on pursuing holiness in PDI/SGM, and rejected that, to pursue Christ. My husband reminds me how once, our ex-pastor said that he prayed the world would see God’s “pure and holy church”. My h. found that hard to swallow, because the church isn’t to be lifted up. Jesus is to be.
“I have to ask (I know, another question – I’m just such a danged curious Canary), do these men struggle so much with pride that they must continually grieve over their sin as they remain at the cross?” I don’t know, it seems that, the more time I spend waiting on the Lord, the less I think about myself, or pride, or any sin. I think I become more like HIm because He shows me Himself, and He kinda rubs off on me.
Today, I had a talk with the Lord about a particular motive I had in wanting a particular thing (details are unimportant). After years of not looking at this motive (which is an ungodly one), I finally admitted to the Lord that this motive was there. Duh…no surprise to Him. He probably wiped His mighty brow and said, “Sheesh, finally she admits it!”
So, we talked, I said I was sorry, and that I desired to have His mind on the matter. I know He wishes that, as well. So now I wait for His Spirit to do the work, to change my thinking to be like His. It was simple, gentle, and there weren’t even any tears or remembering the cross or lashing myself with a wet noodle…sorry, no sarcasm. The Lord and I are in agreement that my sin has been paid for like all the rest, and I shouldn’t allow it any room in my thinking, anymore. However, He will do the work of change in me. All I have to do is cooperate.
I hope this doesn’t sound irreverant. It’s just the way it happened. No condemnation. Just a change in my thinking is all that the Lord required. Now He can work more of HImself into me in this particular area of my life.
So, (uh-oh, another question – Quizzler, I don’t mean to be filling your shoes!), if I, being a lowly, little canary, can have the Lord’s ear on the matter of my sin, and come out of it like I did, why don’t these men who seem so holy and smart, find the same freedom from their sin? Why must they continually wallow in the ugliness of their pride, etc. at the foot of the cross? Man, I’m sitting at the feet of Jesus, instead, and seeing real change, real joy, and great contentment. Jesus saw some dirt on my feet today, and washed them for me. I am happy that He did, and look forward to seeing Him change me in the particular area He showed me. It’s exciting.
I guess I’m asking another question because I don’t think people ought to be following men who have such trouble with pride, who haven’t been truly set free from it. I mean, how many more years do these guys have to “mortify pride” before they are thinking like God on the matter? He is big and we are small. Simple.
Okay, Remnant. Movn’ on.
Movin’ on is process, Canary. You won’t find me hounding you for your good and legitimate questions. Movin’ on can only happen in total if you lay all the issues out there – for your sake. Voice the questions. Then leave them for the Lord to resolve. It might take quite awhile to find the question to voice. And once you’ve voiced all your questions and have moved on, don’t be surprised that another question pops up out of the blue in a week, a month, a year…. it is all in God’s cleansing process.
The Lord knows full well what y’all who have spent decades in SGM have been subjected to. The Lord knows how your hearts have been tugged and mugged. The Lord knows how your minds have been twisted and shaped and lied to (either covertly or overtly). He knows how you’ve been mistreated then and since.
The questions are not simple ones. They are not few.
They can be left unanswered. Sigh. Without resolution. Double sigh. (Who here doesn’t like unresolved issues?)
When I say “move on” I mean that it does no good to camp out on SGM issues. There is so much more to your life. But when the Lord brings to memory an issue, listen. Understand what He is speaking to your heart: Canary, here’s an offense you suffered. Canary, here’s an evil perpetrated. Canary, here’s a teaching that wasn’t quite right. Canary, here’s where you embraced a lie. Canary, here’s where someone hurt your feelings. Canary, here’s where you believed you were no better than the leaders. Hear Him. He whispers the truth to you. Repent if you must. But then lay it at His feet. And move on for the day. For He does not condemn you. And neither do I.
Aw, Remnant, I didn’t think you were condemning me. I can hear your heart in your words. Maybe answering some of these questions here will help others stuggling with their current situation. I don’t hurt like I use to, which is maybe why I can ask these things. I feel for those still left in the bondage of confusion and control. This blog is for them.
You are a really nice person, Remnant!
Canary,
I have a couple of thoughts…
It has been a very, very short time since we left our SG church. So fresh in my memory is the way I perceived the teaching, what I thought to be the correct doctrine. I believed that it was important/godly to see my sin and necessary to have help in seeing my sin because of the deceitfulness of sin. Of course, that is Scriptural, that sin is deceitful. But I can’t help now seeing how deceived I was by the teaching–legalism. Anyway, in focusing on my sin, on myself, I was sinning more. It kind of makes sense, to be self-focused and preoccupied with my sanctification would seem naturally to produce self-centeredness and all sorts of related sins. Is that the experience of the leadership as well? I don’t know. But law does produce sin, does it not? (Romans 7:5, Romans 5:20, Romans 7:8)
What you said, about Christ rubbing off on you made me think of the verse about beholding the glory of the Lord and being changed into his image, 2 Corinthians 3:18. Just this morning, I was thinking about accountability (as you know, a big thing within SGM) and how I don’t agree with the idea–not the way they put it forth. And the realization came to me that now, since I’ve been set free from thinking submitting to God means submitting to my church, I have more faith in God to make me holy than in my church. That’s a huge thing for me as I’ve always had a hang up about needing the church to prevent me from falling away (and we’re not in a church right now). But what does the Word say? ”for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I’ve committed unto Him against that day.” (2 Timothy 1:12)
I agree with you, it should be about Christ and not the church–in every way. Please don’t misunderstand–I’m not completely anti-church. This is just where we’re at right now–between churches. And I trust God to care for us during this time.
Thank-you for sharing how God worked in your life today. That’s encouraging. And faith building to hear how you’re trusting Him to make the changes in you.
Just one more thought, because I think both my husband and I myself felt this way… To keep oneself focused and on the look out for sin while a part of SG, may be at least partially a by-product of the enforced (maybe too harsh a word) openness, confessing of sins and drawing out. One would want to be on top of things if one knew that fellow care group members would be drawing one out or asking where or how one is struggling–this sounds like fear of man, I guess. And maybe there’s also a fear of becoming deceived by sin if you aren’t constantly searching for it (I think I felt that way). I think the Word says to be on guard, but not to be hunting. And also, David prayed for God to search his heart. I think there’s something to be considered there, too, regarding digging for sin.
I’m so glad I’m set free from all of that, but I do feel bad for those who continue in that way. It really lacks faith, doesn’t it? That cannot be a good thing.
the question has been asked: Why is that (focusong on the cross and sin) so appealing to this organization?
I offer this as an answer: in order for anyone to control another, you must have certain things in place. One of these things, as perhaps most important, is another person (or persons) who feel inadequate, unable, inept, etc..unable to make decisions on their own, or at least to question every single decision they make. This creates a dependent state. Then, they “fill in the blank” conveniently enough, with what? THEMSELVES. They become our Savior and answer to our questions, our “covering”, our man on earth who “stands in the stead of God,” the “overseer of our souls” and on and on and on.
It’s about power and control. Never forget that. It is a spiritual trap that gets the best of us, devours us, and spits us out – only afterwards we are unable/struggle to think for ourselves, unable/struggle to trust anyone, unable/struggle to make decisions apart from someone else’s approval, and worst of all…not having a shred of joy, peace or faith.
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: THIS is why they are doctrines of death, not life.
But, praise God – He opened our eyes, continued to give grace, continued to reveal truth, and by His Spirit we were set free. And now we can experience the abundant life promised to His children.
Bree,
I hope you are finding help and hope through this blog. Having been out of SGM for only a short time, it is so good that you have others to talk with who have been in your shoes.
2 Tim. 1:12 – cool. How many of us were taught that we would fall away from the Lord if we left the churches we were in? How much fear did this instill in us? Peter still walked with the Lord during the times he was imprisoned. So did Paul. They didn’t get a “pass” to attend church meetings and accountability groups. Neither did John who, after being boiled in oil and surviving, was sent to the island of Patmos. Did he fall away? No! He wrote the book of Revelations.
Some of what we were taught to believe was just plain, ole’ superstition. I am glad you are doing well as you learn from the Master Teacher. One day, He will guide you and your family into your calling, where ever that may be. Enjoy your rest in the Lord!
I’m glad it was helpful that I shared about my talk with the Lord, today. I still find it hard sometimes to be vulnerable, to let others see inside of me. Trust is so difficult to re-learn after betrayal shatters it. I was thinking, good grief, how many people are reading this post? Ever seen a Canary with pink cheeks? Then, I found myself hoping that others would understand God’s heart on the matter of dealing with our weaknesses and faults. It needn’t be this huge distraction. It was simple and sweet. I could relish God’s goodness in taking another part of my life and making it like His. Now I’m back to resting in and enjoying His presence.
Well, this Canary has chirped quite enough the past couple of days. I hope others will feel the freedom to come on here and tell us how they have moved on after their SGM experience. Maybe, in our own small way, we can encourage each other to remain in the faith, to grow in the knowledge of the fullness of God, and to endure until He comes again.
Canary said: You are a really nice person, Remnant!
Remnant says: I could use that in a cross stitch. Smile.
Thank you, Sweet Tweeter.
Bree and Juli, great observations and comments. Wish I had more time this morning to point out what really struck me.
Connie,
How is your brother? Still praying here…
MiMi
Me too, Connie. Please let us know how he is when you have a chance. David is in Good Hands!
Juli,
Do you think that the motives of ALL SGM leaders are to have power and control? I know you saw that in your personal experience
. I saw power and control in my pastor, but I don’t believe it was deliberate. I think he was deceived by the leaven. Could this perhaps be the broad brush that Jim spoke of, if we say that every leader’s motive is to control others? Just thinking out loud…(‘course, I could have misunderstood you).
So, how are you “moving on” from the controlling church you were involved with (I know the answer, because we talk, but others reading might not)? How do you move on from the fear and intimidation that you were once under? I think those emotions/thoughts are the hardest to overcome. They keep us so paralyzed.
It would be great if one of the guys posting would come on and answer this question, too. You were men being controlled/manipulated by other men. How did you get past that? Oh dear, I’m asking questions, again…
is this website a church?
Abe,
Hi! I would say that all believers are the “church”. As far as functioning outside the limited boundaries of the internet, some of us talk to each other on the phone, send personal emails, and such. Some get to actually meet because they live near each other. We are not a church group that meets in the same building, if that is what you are asking. We are all over the country. We are Christians who just happened to come together because Jim/Carole started this blog (thanks Jim and Carole! Hope your beach trip was beautiful and resting!). Most of us had bad experiences in an authoritarian type church group. You can find Jim’s reasons for beginning the blog by checking out the “home” section, I think.
I guess it just seems like you guys try to care for each other and from my view. The bible says that yes we are the church, but the church(place) is who cares for you. We are to live and grow in a church, we are to serve in a local church, so It seems it would be beneficial if you had lists of helpful, fruitful, biblical churches to where people could go and find a good local church to be involved and cared for and not just necessarily provide a website that expresses sorrow for people who suffered, lets tell them of another church and have them throw there life into it and get involved.
Hi Abe,
This website is a blog. I’m not sure how you would define “a church”, so I can’t give you an appropriate answer. If you wouldn’t mind clicking here , you’ll find a great place for Q & A. If you flesh out a little what you mean by “a church”, I’ll do my best to give you an accurate answer.
I agree with Canary’s answer, and maybe that’s all you wanted to know.
Either way, welcome!
Thanks, Abe. We have posted about the very things you mention. This part of the site is called “moving on”. If you wish to debate your ideas, it would be great if you would pop over to some of the main blogging, such as “Turning the Ship”. Jim and others would be the best ones to answer your thoughts. This part of the blog is for those who need the “caring” you mention. Thanks, and welcome to the Refuge!
Or, what Jim said…:)
Abe,
Let’s discuss this further. Please click the link in my last comment, or scroll to the top of the page and click on “concerned”. That’s the best place to have this conversation.
This particular comment thread would not be the place.
Thanks for praying for my brother, David. They are doing tests today to see if the infection has moved into the lining of his heart
Certainly hope not. I will keep you posted. Thanks again.
Connie:
I just got up to speed on your brother; PD and I will be praying! You and your family bask in the care of Christ during this time.
~John
Connie,
Know that there are prayers being lifted to our Father for David and his family. I pray for strength and faith for you, as well. Hugs!
Connie, I am so sorry to hear about your brother. I am going to pray for him right now.
Connie,
Still praying for David, his family, and you. God’s strength be with you. Peace and grace to David’s family. Health and a long life for David…
Connie, PD & I are joining RT and canary in praying for your brother again today.
~John
I just had a little inspiration about how the Lord deals with our faults and weaknesses. Though all of it has been paid by His sacrifice, it seems that some would have us grieve daily over how God-hating our hearts are, how deceitful, how sinful…well, you know.
Earlier in the week, I shared about the Lord dealing with an error in my thinking, which was leading me astray in an area of behavior. Here is another example.
I have a two year old Matlese. She is about five pounds, all white, with a loving, cheerful disposition. Her name is Chloe. When we first got her at around four months, we noticed she had an eye problem. After weeks of treating with anitbiotics, the vet finally did a tear test. Chloe was producing aboslutely zero fluid in her eyes. Nada. Completely dry. Being in CO, which is very dry as well, she was unable to protect her eyes from dust and debree. They get filled with pussy, sometimes green eye gunk if not treated daily.
So, every day, two or three times in that day, I must put bottled tears into her eyes. First, I use an eye solution and tissue to clean out any gunk that is there (usually there is quite a lot in the morning). This procedure is cold and irritating to her sensitive eyes. Then, I must put in the bottled tears.
Here is how it goes. I get up in the morning and sit in my recliner to check my email. Afterwards, I look around for my sweet Chloe amidst the other five little dogs that I own. She sees me searching for her, notices the little basket on my lap that holds the parafinellia for her eyes, and stands very still.
Meanwhile, my heart is filled with love for this cute, tiny canine. She brings me joy and delight every single day, with her sweetness, her silliness, and her little bearded face that harbors those poor, dry, deep brown eyes. She can’t help herself. She was born with this defect. Without me, her eyes would crust up, seal shut, and eventually cause her to go blind.
I gently call her name, knowing that what I must do for her is unpleasant. Yet, it will give her hours of freedom from irritated eyes. She pauses, stares at me, then slowly ambles over to my chair. So happy that she is cooperating, I hold and cuddle her, scratching behind her ears, reassuring her of my great love for her.
Then, we proceed with the unpleasant task of cleaning her eyes. She sits patiently, somtimes making a little sound when it hurts. Once the cleaning is done, I put a few cold drops of bottled tears in each eye. It is finished. For the next four hours or so, she has clean, clear eyesight. I tickle her and tell her what a good girl she is. She licks me, wagging her tail with delight. I place her on the floor. Off she goes to play with the rest of her pack, totally unburdened by her defect.
What makes this most amazing is that, while I do the most uncomfortable part of cleaning her poor eyes, she licks my hand.
My heart for Chloe is the Lord’s heart for us. When He wants to clean our feet because they have become soiled by walking in this world, His heart is so filled with love! He knows we can’t help it. We were born with these faults. Notice that, with Chloe, I don’t clean her whole body. She doesn’t need that. She simply needs her eyes washed.
The Lord, in dealing with a sin, doesn’t need to go back to the cross to die all over again. God forbid! His blood has already washed our entire soul, cleansing and forgiving us forever.
However, occasionally our hidden faults and weaknesses need attention. We were born with them. As we grow in our faith, more and more of our hearts will become like Jesus, if we cooperate with Him. Like little Chloe hears my gentle voice calling to her, we hear Jesus calling our names. LIke Chloe, we have to make that decision to obey that sweet voice, knowing that His washing of our feet may be very humbling, might even hurt, but still we must follow His call.
We crawl into His mighty lap as He reassures us of His great love for us. We sit patiently while He does what He must to cleanse that one hidden fault, to change that one weakness He desires to in the day that we are in. Like Chloe licking my hand, we can be grateful even through the unpleasant business of having the Lord of the universe wash our dirty, stinky feet for us. How humbling. No Lord, I should wash your feet – oops, that’s right. Your feet never need washing.
When the cleansing is finished, He once again reassures us of His love. Like Chloe wagging her tail at me, we can rejoice and worship our Great Lord for caring enough about us to keep us clean. Oh, glory to God!
Then, He sets us on our little feet, and off we go to face our day, enjoying His prescence more than the day before, because a little less of us is following the flesh. A little more of us is living by the Spirit.
This is our Father’s heart for us. This is Jesus’ love for us. This is how the Holy Spirit cleanses us when we need it.
I hope this helps you, who are hurting, to understand the truth about how the Lord perceives you.
John 13:5-11
Canary,
Thank you for the well throughout and poignant post. His love for us, His children, not the law compels us. We run to His grace and mercy, knowing that He welcomes us as we come into His presence because the veil has been taken away. If we relate to Him on the basis of the law, then we feel condemned when we fail and self-righteous when we succeed.
Just getting caught up. Connie, we will be praying for your brother and his family as well.
Thank you all so very much for praying for my brother. He is home from the hospital now, continuing his recuperation. Because he was so very sick, I am sure it will take awhile so any and all prayers are greatly appreciated. I am so grateful to all of you, my brothers and sisters in Christ. You are all people seeking after our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and HIS Truth and I appreciate you, each and every one!
Canary,
Thank-you so much for taking the time for that last comment. What I’m taking away from it (and I do plan to print it off for my ‘fridge–hope that’s O.K.) is an example from my Father of how I should deal with my own children. I’m tempted in my own walk to be legalistic, and so with my kids I’m apt to be the same, condemning, rather than showing mercy and grace.
Thank God, earlier today, He opened my eyes to that tendency yet again and I made things right with one of my children. The thing is, it is so hypocritical of me to be anything but gracious knowing how much room for growth remains in my own life.
And I easily could have gone down a path of condemnation of my own once I had apologized and truly saw how I had been acting. So your comment was very timely.
Thanks,
Bree
Bree,
You are very welcome! Let’s make a deal. I will pray for you to continue to know the Father’s love for you, if you will pray for me to do the same. Then, that love just naturally passes on to our children!
Connie,
I’m so glad your brother is home, and that you allowed us all to know what was happening. God is so good. I wish I could hug you right now. Let your brother know that we will continue to pray as he regains his health!
G.D.
Somehow, my friend, I think you have quite a grasp on the grace of God. That’s why we need you here!
Canary – you asked:
Juli, Do you think that the motives of ALL SGM leaders are to have power and control?
I wouldn’t say MOTIVE per se, but context of our relationship with them? My answer is BIG FAT YES. And before people start picking up stones..I think the beliefs they hold both 1) encourage this type of control over the lives of their congregations and 2) perpetuate their need to maintain it
but their beliefs are wrong – hence the motives wrong – change the belief, change the actions…but they are unwilling, or at least most are. Some (as we’ve read here) have had their eyes opened and have changed, but it is few.
Their teachings such as standing in the stead of God, being overseers for your soul, being a joy to your pastor – all about control. And making them maintain it easier.
Canary,
Will do! : )
Their teachings such as standing in the stead of God, being overseers for your soul, being a joy to your pastor – all about control. And making them maintain it easier.
Yes, Juli. I can see this. It was certainly true in the two churches I was involved with. I hope there are some exceptions out there!
There are Canary, believe me there are..that is what gives me hope – plus “you know who”!!!
Mimi,
You mean G-D?
Canary
Yes, our G-D……remember the chorus we are now singing??
MiMi
Yep, Mimi. Hallelujah!!!
Connie,
How is your brother, David, feeling? I hope all is well.
Canary,,
I have to run out. Do you still want the info on the virgins and the oil lamps?
If so , let me know..
MiMi
Mimi,
Yes, I would love to hear what you have to say. I haven’t had time to go through a study, all though I remember doing a little about it in the past. Get me started, girl!
Connie,
Still praying for David…
Mimi,
I’ve been struggling this week with an illness, and haven’t been able to do a study on the oil, etc. I’d really appreciate hearing what you know. I’m very curious about this. Thanks.
Hi everyone. I just found these sites yesterday when I was searching for info on Brent D, who I heard had left SGM. I just wondered if that was accurate or not.
I am so glad for all of you that you have the courage, the grace, and the audacity not to be cowed by what goes on at that organization.
Live by the Spirit and walk by the Spirit and you will not trust in horses or chariots.(men and their organizations)But first you have to know the Spirit, know God and know Jesus, and it is extremely difficult to do that in any church because they want to control your time and money, when it should be God WHO controls your time and money. I have to say I learned a lot about the Bible and relationships at PDI, but it proved to be a stepping stone to what God wanted us to learn and was only for a season. And it got to a certain point that any spiritual growth I had was on my own, which as I discovered later was the way it should be.
It has been 13 years since we left PDI, or SGM, and from what I have been reading for several hours, things haven’t changed much. It is like ‘All My Children”, the soap I used to watch when I was in my 20′s. Even though I could only watch it once or twice a week, and later, once a month or so, I could still get the gist of the story.
And I find that the same old things have been continuing at these churches.
You know why? Because the same people are still stuck in their religious rut and when the Spirit isn’t moving—-then things are dead, dead, dead. They just pass the same spirit down to the younger ones. Does anyone remember, Are you a pioneer or a settler?? (mid 1980′s)The leaders are definitely settlers these days. When you get older it’s easier to maintain the status quo. The last year or so we were in our church, I only remembered the Spirit moving 2 times and that was when a couple young kids said a few words.
Control…….that is the name of the game with most leaders. Religion is why.
If you are not led by the Spirit, then you are led by man, or your own mind. When you reach the place that you trust God even though it goes against everything you know, then you are in a good place. You will look foolish, but I always remember that
God chooses the foolish things of the world to confound the wise.
As far as tithing, why in the world you would give money to men to do with as they wish, when you should be able to hear God for yourself and do what HE wants you to do with the money. HE doesn’t care about your money, HE just wants you, to hear HIM, and obey HIM. not men, not a group, not an organization. (And believe me, we have given plenty of money in years past)
Come out from among them and be separate, touch not the unclean thing, the LORD said to me over 13 yrs ago. I was stunned, couldn’t believe it, didn’t know what to do. I thought that we could change things, that God couldn’t want me to leave my church, etc. HE made me so miserable over a few months that I had to leave that place or kill myself.
It took a long time, because we didn’t have many to talk to, until we felt better. We were the heretics, the unfaithful, the rebellious and defiant ones who wouldn’t submit to authority.
You are fortunate that you have banded together and can discuss the hurts, resentments, anger, bitterness, etc. It goes away and you can find peace, healing and grace to grow in HIM and live and walk by the Spirit.
May HE richly bless you with HIS PRESENCE, HIS GRACE, HIS MERCY and HIS UNMERITED FAVOR as you take those steps to truly be free in who you were created to be in HIM.
Free at last.
old-timer from PDI
Welcome!! Your words and life experience resonate. Happy to hear that you are finding kindred spirits and continued healing in Christ Jesus.
old-timer,
Welcome. I, too, was an old-timer, way back in the early PDI days. Your words add one more story to the many!
We have not heard that Brent D. left SGM. He did leave his Charlotte church to begin a new one in Cabbarus/Mooresville area, but still under SGM. Do you have new info?
FYI — here’s information about Brent on SGM’s website:
Grace Community Church
278 Arrow Point Lane
Davidson, NC 28036
Pastor:
Brent Detwiler
Phone:
(704) 932-0302
Website:
http://www.gccnc.org
Meeting Place:
Mooresville Middle School
160 South Magnolia Street
Mooresville, NC 28115
Pioneer/Settler issue – I remember that. Funny thing – if the Isaraelites had decided to settle in the desert (after 40 years, it would be tempting!), there would have been no promised land experience. Also, the place of settling is so much like the system Benny, Larry, etc. spoke against so many years ago. Now look! Talk about full circle.
I was tempted to plant a stake during my desert experience (after leaving PDI) several times. The Lord always raised me to my feet, brushed me off, gave me water, and moved me forward. He wouldn’t let me settle. I’m so glad He didn’t.
Sometimes I wonder if these men are even listening to God. Have they, in their theoligical frenzy, forgotten how?
Hi to you all and thanks for answering! A friend of my husband’s(who still attends a SGM church-in his own peculiar way) told him that Brent left his church and I didn’t know it was just relocation.
I thought that he had left SGM. Thanks for the clarification.
If I hadn’t been searching for that info I would never have ran across these sites though so things do work out! We didn’t have blogs and internet like today when we left, so we were on our own. Maybe that is a strength though because it makes you depend on the Lord instead of people. But it would have been good to see that we weren’t too crazy!
I am glad that folks can see that they don’t have to be afraid and that life goes on without PDI or SGM. Keep up the good work.
Free at last.
oldtimer,
I have heard this so many times – “I’m so glad to know I wasn’t crazy!” Those of us who had to deal with leaving on our own find this site and are amazed. I cried a whole afternoon after I found the Survivor’s site, and that is 12 years after leaving PDI!
Welcome to the blog, oldtimer!
canary,
Sorry to hear you are ill. Will be praying for you.
I will be out of town this weekend, with no access to a computer, so will give you a little info and will continue later this weekend.
The story/parable of the virgins and their oil lamps, also can be tied in with the O.T., and it too is a foreshadowing the our Jesus coming for HIS bride.
Around 167 B.C./C.E., the ruling Greek dynasty in Israel destroyed all the temples, and demanded that the Jews bow down to their gods. A family, the Maccabees, led a revolt against the Greeks, won, and reestablished the Jewish nation. The most important thing for the Jew regarding their temples then, and still now, was the burning of the “eternal flame” representing the presence of G-D.
However, due to the destruction of the temples, there was enough oil to burn for only one night. They prayed, and that small bit of oil, lasted eight days, enough time for them to get more oil to keep the lamps burning. Thus, “the festival of lights” or Chanukah that is celebrated each winter, usually around our Christmas time.
With that said, the oil laps burning, represented the “Shekinah Glory” every present in the temple, and more importantly, are, even today, to be kept burning until their Messiah comes. Every, temple, synagogue, shul in the world, has the eternal light burning to show the messiah the way to them.
Now to the virgins. In the days of Jesus, marriages were arranged by the fathers. Many times, the bride and groom didn’t even know each other, and the groom did not know where the bride’s family lived. The couple didn’t even know the time or date of the wedding. She never knew when he was coming.
When our Lord referred to the virgins and their oil, HE was talking about HIS return. Just as the bride and her virgins in waiting, were anticipating the bridegroom coming for her, we wait for HIM, not knowing the day or hour of HIS return.
It was the old Hebrew custom, for the virgins to keep oil in their lamps full and burning so the bride groom could find his way to his bride (remember he probably did not know where she lived. The young men found their way to the girls by looking for and following the path lit by the virgins and their lamps. ) If any of the lamps burned out due to no oil, he would miss her and she would not become his. The virgin would then be rejected and shunned, not allowed to be part of the wedding party once it did take place.
Jesus used this allegory to remind us to how to look and wait for HIM. Our hearts are the lamps to hold the oil/word of G-D as we await our bridegroom to get us. If we do not stay ever vigilant, focused on HIM, full of HIS word, we are just like the virgins, letting our oil run out, not being ready for HIS return, and will be left behind.
The virgins lamps, represent the eternal flame, lighting the was for the Messiah, bridegroom and our Jesus to come for us.
HE tell us to be ever vigilant, for we know not the day or hour of HIS return. We need to take note and to heart HIS warning, to not be lax in keeping that flame of relationship alive with HIM, so that we will be part of HIS bride and sitting at the table with HIM in Rev. 19:9
Hope this helps. I will answer any questions later this weekend…..
Lord Jesus, pour your healing balm of Gilead over Canary, and bring new life to her body……..
MiMi
Aw Mimi, you are so sweet to pray for me. Thank you.
And thanks for the explanation. I think it is amazing that the Lord used ordinary, every day items like bread and oil to symbolize something about Himself. Today, it would be computer bites and starbucks coffee – hee-hee.
I think it shows how He longs to relate to us, and to have us relate to Him. I do feel sad that some Jews do not recognize that Jesus has already come once. I’m glad you have, my friend! I think Gentiles sometimes forget that He has come at all!
I have also noticed something else after our little talks. You quoted scripture that said Jews look for a sign, and Gentiles seek wisdom (knowledge?). I think some of the problems with our Gentile churches include seeking for wisdom so much, that they forget the needed oil (Holy Spirit?). How can we be ready and waiting for our Bridegroom if we forget about the oil? Interesting, huh? Our sight is so turned inward that we forget there is a beautiful ending to the story of humanity. Jesus is coming back!
I have seen “signs” in my life, but am so much more convinced by having my mind understand. Definitely a strengh and a weakness at the same time. However, I now see how much more important faith is than either signs or knowledge. I don’t need a sign to believe in Jesus, and I don’t need to “understand” everything about theology to know and believe in Him. That’s a good balance, don’t you think?
In scripture, is oil also representitive of the Holy Spirit?
I have another question, rather nosey, I guess. If a person is a Jewish American, does he/she also consider himself/herself to be an Israeli, now that Israel has a nation once again? Since finally becoming a nation in 1948 was it? Since becoming a nation, Israel has become the center of the world, in many ways. This one, tiny nation effects so many others. So, do you consider yourself an Israeli, as well as an American?
In the early days, the Jews brought the gospel to the Gentiles. In the end times, it seems that it is the Jews who once again bring the gospel to the world. Do I understand that correctly? I don’t know what part these questions play in my “moving on”. It is just that, when I hear of Israel on the news, or see the conflict over there, my spirit stands at attention. I tend to have more of a world view at times when the Lord speaks to my heart. Like, I knew that Obama was chosen as President, even before the Clinton machine or the news media had a glimmer of what was happening.
I feel strongly that Israel is playing a very important role somehow, at this moment. So I want to understand more (oops, my Gentile roots are showing!). Though I don’t know if this is the end of endings as spoken of in the bible, I do think Israel is going to be center stage, for some specific reason, in the upcoming days.
I don’t tend to watch the news. Too depressing. So if something is happening now, someone tell me. Anyway Mimi, thanks for putting up with my curiosity and questions. I look forward to hearing from you when you get back from your trip.
I know why my thinking has to do with “moving on”. Back in bondage, er…I mean back when I followed men instead of God, I did not hear anything about Jesus’ return, how we should be prepared, what exciting things were coming along. We focused so much on sin, and ourselves, and the church activities. We were looking downward, instead of upward. Isn’t part of a Christian’s joy to be the knowledge and faith to wait for Jesus, to have our oil in our lamps, to let others know that He is returning? Isn’t it our part and priviledge to keep watch, to warn others to be prepared for the Bridegroom?
Yes, the church at large has failed so badly in preparing its people for the reality of Jesus’ return. We’ve grown too heady, too self-focused. We aren’t watchmen. We don’t shout out the warning. We ignore the signs of the times in order to have our building funds and accountability groups. Oh boy, have we missed the mark badly.
Think I’m going to the book of Revelations. Time to get shaken from my lethargy and self-focus. Time to start looking up!
Hello,
This is my fist posting here, I hope this is the right place to tell my story, and a bit of the stories of those who have suffered.
A little background info: I live in Germany and attended a larger pentecostal church located in northern Germany for some 20 odd years. I was active in several groups of the church and was able to witness what was going on behind the scenes.
Said church changed it’s doctrinal direction 10 years ago, when the pastor “discovered” calvinism for himself and in turn for the complete congregation. I found the transition at that time quite strange, as hardly anyone opposed the sudden change in doctrine, or those that did left rather quickly. For me the doctrine was only one factor for me to leave the church, some others I will describe further below in my observations.
Approx. 2 years ago, another shift took place. This time, the congegation left the pentecostal movement and joined a group called “Sovereign Grace Ministries”. I was no longer a memeber of the church, having left some years before, but still have some friends attending. Again, I found this move quite unusual, as typically a german church would not jump the bandwagon and join an american movement – there often are siginificant compatibility issues. Nevertheless, they did. As I never heard about the SGM group of churches, I decided to do some research on the internet. Next to the info found on the SGM pages, I also discovered this blog.
This Blog: One one hand I was shocked to read all the stories of disappointment and spiritual abuse. I was wondering what friends and brothers were getting themselves into. Could it be true, or is this just the ranting of some disastisfied, bitter people? Well, I recalled what I observed and experienced, and found that these stories hit rather close to home…even though I am not truly post SGM.
My Observations:
This is a summary of observation prior to the SGM shift. Perhaps some of these are too close for comfort…
Submitting to authority was an important issue. The church was/is run by the same brother for over 30 years. He calls the shots, interprets the bible. You listen and follow.
.
Stressing Sin. I recall many and many and many sermons stressing our personal sinfulness. And again. And again. I had the feeling that the well used christian slogan “WWJD” was warped into “What would Jesus NOT do”. Watch out what you do, Jesus would never do that!
Doctrine is (nearly) everything. It was essential to believe the “right” stuff, the right way. I recall conflicts between groups of our church and other from the penetecostal movement, where guys from said church stressed the “fact” that their faith was the only correct one.
Tight command structure: Father, son and son-in-law are all pastors in the chruch. Financial head is the son-in-law of the pastors good friend. Yes, this does account for stability. But it also accounts for a great amount of danger as no one from the outside can look in, no checks and control. Of course, this is not required, as you must submit to authority anyways
Full embrace of all things SGM: Books from SGM are being emphasized, a certain fellow named “CJ” is adored by many, if not all. Leadership goes to all the congresses and international meetings.
So what?
That is a good question. Nothing I have written so far is really all that dramatic. Doctrinal changes are not uncommon. But the one thing I have also witnessds and experienced is spiritual abuse
A trusty friend leaves. So what?
One of my best friends, a spiritual mentor for me, left the church after over 20 years. He saw all the stuff going on, but was a good soldier and kept on fighting. But every man has a breaking point, and he found his when leaders made it clear to him, that his service was not really needed. He was so heartbroken and disappointed, that he left and has not gone back to a church since he left.
But he is not the only one. In fact when he and I once met and we looked back at our time at church…we observed that hardly any of our friends have remained. Those that did remain have extended family at church or just don’t care – where else is there to go?
Looking back, I am happy that I have left, possibly just in time. My mistake was to ask too many questions. I was asked not to swim against the flow (seriously!) and stop resisting. So this fish decided to jump out of the murky pond into the great lake of independant thought and faith.
So much for my story, I hope it wan’t to boring…
European,
Thank for sharing a little of your life. How are you doing now as far as Christian fellowship? Do you belong to any “church” there in Germany? Also, how is a serious follower of the Lord Jesus viewed by the overall, general culture of Germany?
Welcome to you!!! Thanks for posting.
Gratefully,
I’m doing fine, I have found a small church in the town I live. I continue in young adult ministry as I have done before.
The church structure I now know is less restrictive, people actually have opinons that are open to discussion. We can openly discuss issues such as female leadership or free will without having the feeling that somebody will discipline us for not following “doctrine”.
It depends how you would define “a serious follower”. You could either be seen as a fundamentalist. Or as someone who is deeply humane.
If you’d say that you go to a place called SGM (and translate that into German), they’d think that it is a cult. And if they would obeserve the same stuff as I did, they would feel that they are right with the assumption.
European,
I’m glad you’re here.
Me, too, European. What a pleasure to hear from the brethren (sistren?) across the pond.
And interesting that it only reiterates the same story we have heard here–heavy handed authority, nepotism, exclusiveness.
Hello European!
Welcome!
Blessings from God!
How’Dee Ya’All,
Erik on April 5th, 2009 at 9:05 pm
http://sgmrefuge.com/2008/08/0.....mment-9688
Said:
“Lieber Bruder aus Deutschland!
Ich war Pastor einer Gemeinde in der Schweiz und auch in Oesterreich für zehn Jahre. Ich bin auch Amerikaner und war teil dieser Sekte “People of Destiny”. (Jetzt heisst SGM) Gott sei dank sind wir seit fünfzehn Jahre von SGM befreit. Unsere Gemeinde in Basel CH heisst Oikos International Church. Ich wurde gerne mehr von dich hören.
Gottes Segen! Behüht dich Gott. ”
-E
Folks, here is an approximate translation:
“Dear Brother from Germany!
I was a minister of a municipality in Switzerland and also in Austria for ten years.
I am also an American and was part this sect: “People OF Destiny”. (Which is now called ) Thank God we have been liberated -some fifteen years from SGM.
Our municipality, Basel, and the church is called Oikos internationally Church.
I am glad to hear from you!
Blessings from God…! ”
-E “
@All:
Thank you for the warm welcome!
Some questions:
Who is this “CJ” fellow, what role does he play in SGM, and why is he so humble?
European,
CJ is the president of Sovereign Grace Ministries. I assume part two was rhetorical
@ Jim: Possibly so, I am weary of people who proclaim they are striving for this, striving for that….and then are leaders or presidents of some religious group, write books and live a very, very comfortable life.
I checked out links to him on the SGM page, he recently held a sermon on Hebrews 13:17
“Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage to you.”
The esssence of his message was: Why don’t you ask your pastor if you are a joy to him and not a burden. He kept on saying again and again to ask yourself “Am I a joy to the pastor?”. The reason to ask this is because, according to CJ, God want’s pastoring to be the happiest calling on earth. This includes the congregation to be humble and submisive.
The problem is, that is not what Paul strived for. Nor Jesus. Nor Moses. Nor Elijah. They “pastored” even though it was not the happiest calling. It was even far from that. And despite all of that, they were certainly not unhappy because they knew who they were in God.
Also, this text is totaly torn out of context. This is not pauline doctrine to get everyone submissive. It is some parting advice. Essentially he is saying:
“Listen people, try not to be too much of a pain in the butt. The guy up front is a schmuck like the rest of us are. So take it easy on him, he’s only human.”
CJ should just straight up say he’s a schmuck like everyone else, a bum like the rest of us dependant upon grace. That we should take it easy on each other. He should stop all this nonsense with being Über-humble, the need for submission.
Ops…
Pastor Eric,
Danke für die Korrektur!
Der Segen von Christ’ s fertige Arbeit ist Ihre!
Sopy
P.S. Great quote: “Jesus calls men, not to a new religion, but to life.” -Dietrich Bonhöffer; Dietrich loved Jesus! He also loved the church enough to “die” for it, in the last days of the war. Should we all have such convictions! Danke!
–”The Blessing of Christ’s finished work” -Yours.
“Right Assumption”
“I was asked not to swim against the flow, (seriously!) and stop resisting. So this fish decided to jump out of the murky pond into the great lake of independent thought and faith.”
—European, April 5th, 2009; http://sgmrefuge.com/2008/08/0.....mment-9682
European,
Welcome!
Purfect! he he
***
Mr. Mahaney, “Über-humble” ? >Snicker<
Nah.
Hahahahahahahahahahah!!!
In a little,
Herr Sopy
European,
It is amazing to hear the same stories about SGM from another country. Thank you for posting.
I think CJ has said, in similar words, that he is a schmuck of all schmucks. He and others don’t seem to see how that looks to others on the outside. I mean, why keep saying you are the greatest sinner, or remind people how humble your leader is?
Someone I know in SGM had her children attend a conference on humility. As though we can make our own selves humble like Jesus by going to a conference! Humility is a result of abiding on the Vine.
Heb. 13:17 can be a little disturbing to those of us who were “under” controlling leadership. Frank Viola, author of “Who Is Your Covering” and “Rethinking the Wineskin” takes a little of the sting out of that verse.
The Greek word for “authority” is hegeomai, which means “to guide, to lead, to go before”. Frank describes this in “Who Is Your Covering”, on page 35-36. He says that hegeomai means:
“Watching over rather than bossing
Superintending rather than dominating
Facilitating rather than dictating…a shepherd who cares for and supervises the sheep rather than one who drives them from behind, or rules them from above.”
This is such a more healthy way of looking at “authority”. In the end, God has the final say in our lives, however. Our freedom in Christ is too precious to ever relinquish again.
Canary,
You could probably guess that I don’t agree 100% with any author
Caveats aside, I’m reading a lot of Viola these days. He’s saying some stuff that I’ve been thinking for over 25 years, and also adding some new thoughts to the mix…
You could probably guess that I don’t agree 100% with any author
Yes Jim, neither do I.
“Who Is Your Covering” was of particular interest to me after my husband and I left SGM. I found that some of the fear I was under was just plain, old superstition. Reading Viola helped me to see authority in a new light.
@Canary: Quite simple, they repeat it because with great likelyhood they aren’t what they say they are. There most be some psychologial definition for that state of mind.
Or perhaps they try to emulate Paul. But if you take a close look at Paul and many of the statements he has made about himself, he actually does turn out to be a rather arrogant fellow.
One secret I have learned is that this over emphasis of control is rooted in fear.
Here an anecdote to explain:
Many years ago while I was a member of the youth group, we were planning a new years eve party at church. We wanted to invite friends from outside of the church to this party. It is common to celebarate new years here with dancing…as ignorant as we were we were planing a dance party with christian music to which we could invite friends outside of the church to the building.
Initial planning went smoothly, our youth pastor gave us a thumbs up. I was actually a bit suprised and also very happy, as I know there are some people who have issues with dancing. But suddenly, one day to the next, things turned sour. One girl in the planning comittee was very upset, she told us that we are all in trouble, the senior pastor and the youth pastor want to us to meet at their office for a serious talk.
So this small, rag-tag group of teens and twens sits there in the senior pastors office, who is waiting for us with his bible in his hands. Sitting next to him is the youth pastor.
The Senior starts out with the question: “So, I heard you want to dance in this building. Tell me, why do you want to sin against the Lord?”
I did not like where this was heading, but at that time I was to intimidated to respond. Well, some of the kids did, trying to explain that the goal was reaching out to friends outside of church.
The senior continues: “Oh, but not with sinful actions! Don’t you know that dancing always leads to fornication?”
There was one bright kid who responded “What bible verse is that?”.
Oh boy, you can guess what happened then. He was hammered with all sorts of bible verses, both from the senior and the youth pastor. The kid fought back as best as he could, but they were literally taking him appart with the bible.
I stepped in “Hey senior pastor, we know that we are no match for your bible knwoledge, I think we should reconsider.”
He liked that statement and agreed with a smug smile. Then and there we backed down as we noticed that it was a lost cause. The girl who was upset was the only one who gave it one last shot and asked the youth pastor: “And, why haven’t you said anything yet, what is your opinion?”
His response: “I see it just like my senior pastor…if not, I even more strongly oppose a party in this building.”
The girl was crushed. The kid was crushed. I probed a bit more, trying to find out if there was any way we could reach a compromise…the response was a shocking statement:
“No, because there are influential people here who do not want this party. They complained, so we had to do something.”
So there we have it: fear.
It is absurd that a ministry calls itself sovereign and grace but essentially is legalistic and fearful.
And what’s even worse: Of this rag-tag group of 6 young christians, all have theft the church. Most of them have left faith in God behind them all together. As the upset girl told me after the meeting: “If our youth pastor doesn’t stick up for me and understand me, how can I ever trust him?”
Wow, what a horrible thing for a young girl to have to face. Teens are sometimes so good at seeing hypocrisy. I hope the ones that ran from God will one day see that God wasn’t in their pastor’s heart, that God is completely different. What those kids were witnessing was the leaven of the Pharisees – something Jesus warned us to guard against. In this case, it was clearly hypocrisy. It makes me sad to think of those young souls rejecting the Living God because He was misrepresented to them.
Canary:
What was the name of that humility conference you friend attended? When I first read your post I was astounded that someone would think that they could actually go to a conference and learn how to be humble but upon reflection it is just another reflection of how many people in SGM are simply conference junkies who think their spiritual growth is primarily a function of tha latest event they attend.
It seems that many of these folks have lost or never really had ae true reformation view of the supremacy of Scripture and the power of the holy spirit to work through the scriptures to produce godliness.
formersgmer,
I wish I could remember the name of the conference. This was a few years back. I was so surprised that there would be such a thing! Shouldn’t be, I guess. Holiness, passion for doctrine, the cross, humility…there always seems to be some new fad to focus on, instead of Jesus Christ. Funny, I always believed that the only way to BE like Jesus was to live closely with Him. Abide on the Vine. That sort of thing. I guess that’s too simple…
It is impossible to go to a conference to learn to be humble. Humility is a learning process for humans. It is the school of hard knocks that God puts an individual thorugh.
What is such a conference going to teach you? Possibly to focus on the doctrine of submission, make people aware that they are not docile and submissive enough, rip bible verses out of context to manipulate those attending.
@ Canary:
It makes me angry, as these kids were my friends. And once they were gone, nobody really cared. You can always write them off as not being “predestined” anyways.
Our children would never dream of returning to SGM churches…they go to Baptist, Methodist and Lutheran churches, but never will they go back there. They were subjected to too much legalism from the pastors and honestly from their parents(yes, us) we bought into that and we deeply regret it now.
It was fear-based control learned from the leaders there and thank God for HIS mercy to reveal where we went wrong. We are even now repairing the damage we did to our relationships with our children. We have apologised many times for the legalistic way they were treated when they were young.
Conferences usually just reinforce the spirit of a group to the individual participants…..and are held to keep to up their interest and enthusiasm.
Humility is truly learned in the school of hard knocks– that is if a person wants to be humble. Continually repeating something about yourself , does not make it so…..except in your own mind.
It makes me angry, as these kids were my friends. And once they were gone, nobody really cared. You can always write them off as not being “predestined” anyways.
Oh, that makes this tweety too, too sad. Jesus, help those children to find YOU. No, better yet, You will go find THEM. That’s what you do – you leave the 99 to go after the one that’s lost. Please, please, go find these kids, and show them who you really are. Amen, so be it.
old-timer,
We’ve all made mistakes with our kids. The Lord can redeem them. Hugs from a canary who was a little too hard on her own brood at times. God is our Redeemer!
I’ze knows it..
Yez, I do…
God can even forgive a yellow canary. >grin<
Thanks fer given us “your heart”. Canary!
Thanks fer given us– Jesus!
Don’t get no bedder dan dis!
IMHO, he he he
In a little, ;~)
Sopy
Sopy,
We canaries, being weaker and more fragile than humans, have to depend extra hard on the Living God. One swipe of a kitty’s paw, one whiff of bad air, and we are singing with the angels!!
European–man, talk about not grasping the freedom of reformed thinking:
If God is the one who calls his elect people, then our assumption has to be that everyone we meet, everyone we love, is going to be called. We can love with freedom, share the gospel with freedom, repent with freedom, play with freedom–If I am unable to ‘win’ a person to Christ (since the opposite would be that somehow, though my actions, someone could be lost to God, someone would not be with Abba in eternity because I danced or was not winsome enough or whatever), but God works as he will, I am FREE to proclaim the mightly love of the Father to everyone around me without condemnation and fear. It is not my responsibility to beat them over the head until the pray a magic prayer, it is my job to love with abandon.
Those two weenies need to be whupped and disciplined. Jerks! Perhaps a quick bible thought: mark 9:42: “Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe to stumble, it would be better for him if, with a heavy millstone hung around his neck, he had been cast into the sea.”
(Who would say dancing always leads to fornication…that is not even LOGICAL!)
RT- I was hoping you’d respond.
Well said and thank you!
RT:
thank you! I myself am not much of a reformed thinker, the experience I made turned reformed theology into something very scary.
It was scary when I dicussed predestination with people at church and they came to a point where they no longe could answer my questions…and then said “you must go to the senior pastor, he will explain it all”. That was very strange.
One friend of mine did exactly that. She discussed it with him, to a point where he gave up and told her: “You can’t understand, you are too young”.
Oh, the dancing…I recall even more and it is pretty traumatic. He literally said that he thinks that we would dance “breast to chest and member to member”. The kids were shocked. I was about to say “That sounds like kama sutra, not a dance”. I should have done so, just to show them the absurdity of it all.
He then asked us to demonstrate a dance, so he could evaluate if it was too suggestive What was this, dancing with the reformed stars? We gladly declinded.
Of course it was not logical. He even said that the whole fornication thing was from a newspaper article he once read somewhere. Christian yellow press I assumed. Or once you hold a bible in your hands, logic goes out the window.
The more I think about it, the angrier I get. I feel like something inside me was kiled and I can no longer trust church elders or pastors.
And they turned mark 9:42 against me, cause I was telling the kids about all the stuf that was wrong.
European,
I think anger at the situation is necessary to go through. What happened was very wrong! God hates hypocrisy, too.
It is hard to trust leaders, again. I think we learn to go cautiously, to require more from a leader than we’ve seen in the past. Is he a servant? Does he walk in love? Is he filled with wisdom and the Holy Spirit? It is our responsibility to “test” those who say they are called to lead. We can no longer blindly follow.
European!
“What was this, dancing with the reformed stars? ”
I am laughing my head off. Thanks for that.
We can’t really trust leaders, they are simply fallen redeemed men and women…like us. Let’s think about this–are we ever told to trust our leaders? A word-study for another day, I guess.
That pastor was a jerk, but Jesus is not a jerk. He adores you, he loves your friends…a pastor-jerk-chump-sinner cannot thwart the purposes of the universe-breathing Almighty God, the one who speaks and stars come into being, the one who speaks and the earth trembles. Trust in him.
Psalm 121 says,
1 I lift up my eyes to the hills—where does my help come from?
2 My help comes from the LORD, the Maker of heaven and earth.
3 He will not let your foot slip—he who watches over you will not slumber;
4 indeed, he who watches over Israel will neither slumber nor sleep.
5 The LORD watches over you—the LORD is your shade at your right hand;
6 the sun will not harm you by day, nor the moon by night.
7 The LORD will keep you from all harm—he will watch over your life;
8 the LORD will watch over your coming and going both now and forevermore.
I am happy to now have found a refuge, a church that is easier and more relaxed in caring for people.
It’s probably because the denomination has rules for the duration of a pastor’s stay at a local church. They are encouraged to move on after 10 years, this prevents chruches from goin stale or having somebody become a boss of the local church, leaving his mark for many generations.
In faith and grace, the pastor and the elders are very relaxed. We recently even had an evening where we played music video games, cause the kids love music. Our pastor, who lives in the second floor of the church building with his family in an appartment (what was that with humility?) showed up before we got started, told us to have fun and enjoy the evening of rocking out! The kids were having a blast, some even played the hard and heavy stuff at full blast. But no complaints from his side, he told me he would have joined if didn’t have a meeting that night.
As a group leader, I am teaching the kids to think independantly. To check the bible, and ask questions. Even to argue with me if they do not agree….and, oh boy, do they ever! LOL.
And what is really funny: Our chruch even does model train evangelism. We open our doors on some week-ends so a train hobby group can set up their model landscapes, tracks and trains. So all chairs are removed to make way for this huge railway, all set up in front of the altar.
Some people went ballistic at church when they heard we would “defile” the sanctuary with model trains. One of the elders answered “We defile it every sunday with our presence. Or do you think a buisness suit santifies things for God?”
So people come to see the trains, and we have an opportunity to meet and talk to them.
For me, that is truly grace. Grace is not fear, law and control. Grace is easy like sunday morning.
Hey all you wonderful Saints!
I was thinking this morning that it would be nice to find out how everyone is doing as they are “moving on”. It is encouraging to hear what the Lord has done.
Inc, how are you, today?
Hey, Canary, I just saw your post. Thank you for asking about me! I have to go work on dinner so will respond in more detail later. I don’t know if my comments should be here or in prayer requests. At the moment, I’ll just say that today was better than yesterday!
Inc,
Glad today was better. I’ll be waiting to hear in more detail how you are.
Canary, I left you a long comment at the Prayer and Praise thread, but it’s currently stuck in Awaiting Moderation! I guess it was too long!!!!! At some point when Jim or Carole see it, it will appear!
Inc,
I saw it and replied.
Inc,
Here is the linking to the “future tripping” article. I’ve put it on the ”moving on” thread because it is a skill that will help us all to deal with fear.
http://www.windrumors.com/37/f.....joy-peace/
This article has helped me more than anything else I’ve read this year!
Thanks, Canary, that is a good article and I will have to ponder it. The difficult part for me for me is when suffering from the past or in the present lends fear for the future.
Mid-night thoughts awakened me in the wee hours, day after Sabbath. So many thoughts churning in the brain. Thoughts that I wasn’t permitted to entertain, prior. I haven’t written much of “my story,” as I’m still not sure what my story is, if there is one, and what has happened, or is happening. We are mostly “out” now, more on that at a later time, worshiping in a place of freedom, a place where ideas are allowed and even encouraged. And now in this place of freedom, I’m realizing what has been taken from me. Our history is in a moderate SG church where many of the abuses so many have experienced, we just never saw. There were events to sting the conscience here and there, which we thought contrary to how things ought to be. But what was taken, what I lost, even in our “healthier,” church was freedom of thought. I learned gradually, yet dutifully over our multiple years at SG that opinions were best kept to yourself, and innovation was only allowed if you were from a particular family. How I laid my creativity, and gifts down sacrificially in the name of submission to authority, now causes me deep regret and wonder at how I could allow man to have so much control over my mind, which Christ had died to bring freedom to. I gave away the gift of freedom to man. How very sad. That is an excerpt from one chapter of my story. The happy ending is that we are now tasting freedom, to have ideas, to “just do something,” (It seems rather ironic that this book is promoted by SG.) Yet, the only something they wanted us to do was to stay within the prescribed boundaries, thinking no original thoughts which might cause us to really serve and love the lost and dying world, as Christ designed us each to do in a unique and beautiful way.
Dear CJ and friends, and I do say this respectfully: this is what happens to those of us in the best of your churches, with a church government that doesn’t allow the Body of Christ the freedom to do great things for Christ. After all, we have a wonderful pastor to do great things for us. That is why your churches have nigh to zero impact on their communities and the world, (other than the assimilation of folks who are already saved.) You have bound the saints with your polity and labeled them sinners so they will feel like sinners. Saints do great things, sinners sit in condemnation. If you want the Spirit of God to empower Sovereign Grace Ministries, you must not make slaves again those whom Christ has made free. Set your people free from the shackles of this form of church government and restore the priesthood of believers. You must return to The Body, the freedom to create and dream and do great things for Christ, and you will be astonished at what He will do through ALL His people.
Hope,
What a wonderful way to describe what has happened to us in SGM churches. My husband and I have been listening to the Steve Brown podcast on freedom and it has started to infiltrate our souls. We too are in what I would describe a moderate SGM church and yet, as I was telling a long time friend yesterday, we don’t have the freedom to “just do something” in our church. If we wanted to start a bible study with several friends in our CG, we might have to run it by the leadership first. There are limited possibilities for ministry, even though they have a long list of areas in which to serve. Only a few privileged people are allowed to teach outside of the Children’s Ministry. I have a friend who has a wonderful voice but did not want to use it in the worship ministry (she had done that). She wanted to do solos and write music. For many years she waited for the opportunity to do that in the church. When our present pastor came in, solos were done away with. She knows God has gifted her but does not feel the freedom to go outside the church setting. So she has finally given it up. What a shame!
I know people who are afraid to move out of an area if there isn’t an SGM church in the new location. That’s ridiculous! God can use you wherever you are because He is God.
The church government is a very real problem because it lets a few chosen ones make the decisions for everyone. We have no say in who is brought in as a pastor, where our tithes and offerings go, what to teach and how to teach children’s ministry. It’s very hard to continue feeling a part of something when we are not emotionally invested in it.
Anyway, I would encourage you, if you haven’t already, to listen to Steve Brown’s podcasts. They are so freeing for the soul.
Wow, Hope. That was very well said.
It is for freedom that Christ has set us free, so we will never go back to the yoke of slavery. Thank the Lord!
Mack, it is so sad to see people like your soloist friend, passed by because their gift doesn’t fit into the perfect plan. Leaders do have to say no for good reasons at times. However, at our SG church something like that would not be considered either. There is no encouragement or opportunity to serve outside of the box. I was so blessed recently to hear a less than polished performance by an older, less polished individual (not at SG.) I was so moved at the beauty of this person being able to share their gift, it brought me to tears. It was delivered with joy and received with joy. As far as the bible study, I’ve never seen it in our church. I am listening to the podcasts and they’re helpful. Thanks!
Thanks Gracie, and amen, we’re not going back to bondage!
God says, “LET MY PEOPLE GO!!!”
I wonder if they realize that they are robbing the people of God of a great many blessings as Hope speaks of above by having their own narrow agenda and expecting expressions of gifting to fit into a tiny man-made box before those gifting can be shared? The whole arrogance and “control freakism” is bad enough, but the whole body suffers when those God has given many, many different and beautiful gifts to are hobbled by the leadership of the church.
The church I have the privilege of being a part of now give us great freedom to express ourselves in all sorts of ways in worship of our God. I have grown to appreciate and be ministered to by such a unique variety of gifts that I can’t imagine the “white bread” approach being all I am allowed to receive anymore. How sad for those who either have given up on experiencing that or have labeled it as harmful. I have a feeling Heaven is going to shock their socks off!!
We left our SG church 6 months ago after being there from the very beginning for many years. It has been hard developing relationships like we had at SGM and I still say they do more things right than wrong. The church however is a certain little “culture”…you either buy into their “way” or you don’t. Our pastor has always been a SGM pastor and knows only the SGM way and I believe is deceived. To say he is heavy into control is an absolute understatement. Oh well. Life goes on.
The Question,
When I first started going to my non-SGM church I thought that I was doing something wrong because my relationships were not as intimate at my SGM relationships. I thought my new church had it wrong but they didn’t – I did. I would encourage you to not worry or focus on that for awhile. Over time, I came to realize that relationships aren’t necessarily best if they as as deep as SGM. It is hard to explain but I have very close friends now and I could tell them my struggles and failures and secrets…if I needed to but I don’t have to open up everything in my life to other people. I wish I had the words to explain my experience. But, not being as deep with my friends or church members as I was at SGM – reserves a special part of my adult self, my heart, and my emotions, just for God. I am free to serve Him and He is more like my husband now. I am intimate with God and close to my church friends. I am just trying to say to be yourself, relax, and wait a good year or so and then look at your relationships. Where I thought for a long time something was lacking it was just that I had to catch up to what normal was. I wish I had better words….
Butterfly,
Your words were perfect and very helpful advice to someone else also at that juncture, reminding me to ‘seek first’ my relationship with God. This is not our first church change, so I know it takes a lot of time to build new relationships. Thanks
I agree. I believe God is jealous to have an intimate relationship with us and we are prone to want to find that in others either instead of Him or along with Him. For me, the danger came when the “need” for close, intimate friendships became an idol and I began to crave those relationships and the acceptance, direction, etc. that I believed came with them. Then the line was blurred in my heart between being utterly dependent on my Creator and enjoying, appreciating, and even growing in friendships with other believers. I found myself too dependent on these relationships…almost like a habit of some sort. When I was ostracized by my “friends” I learned the hard way that HE is enough. More than enough. Now, little by little, I am developing some healthy friendships with believers that in no way, shape, or form is taking the same place as my intimate relationship with my Father. We all have the focus to continually point each other to HIM for direction, counsel, comfort. As hard as it was, I am loving this new and improved way of looking at relationships!!
Hi Butterfly! It is so good to see you posting again. Hope all is going well with you.
Your words were very clear and accurate. Like I Got Out, I have learned that God is first, and relationships cannot replace him. I too am looking for more healthy friendships. I especially like what you said about keeping the “grown-up” side of yourself. In SGM, I felt like a perpetual adolescent. Not anymore. So, thank you for posting what you did.
I was wondering this morning how others are doing in their “moving on” from sgm. I have something to share…
Is anyone else finding it easier to share about God with others, now that we are living in freedom?
My oldest son shares a place with his brother and two friends that go waaaaaay back. The friends moved from NC to CO last summer to be with their buddies. I watched them both grow up, and they are like adopted sons to me.
The youngest of these two friends, who does not know the Lord, decided he needed to move back home. We all felt he was doing the right thing. Anyways, just before leaving, he was having dreams about Jesus hanging on the cross, and my family standing there. I felt this was the Lord speaking so, as a goodbye gift, I gave him an Andrew Murray book on faith. He was very receptive and said he would read it on the plane.
I write this because I realized that, in my growth towards freedom and security in Christ, I was unafraid to “evangelize”. That use to be such a difficult, fearful thing for me to do while under PDI/SGM rule. There was no love involved then, only duty. This time, I felt love and hope that God would capture this young man’s heart.
Anyway, just wanted to share this, as it is a monumental moment in my walk from legalism to grace.
Canary,
Rejoicing with you in your “monumental moment!” saying:
“Behold, God is my salvation;
I will trust, and will not be afraid;
for the Lord God is my strength and my song,
and he has become my salvation.” With joy you will draw water from the wells of salvation. And you will say in that day:
“Give thanks to the Lord,
call upon his name,
make known his deeds among the peoples,
proclaim that his name is exalted.” Is 12:2-4
I too am really relishing my freedom in Christ; I’m so alive and so eager for more Jesus, more of the Word! I know that if I had not been a prisoner, I would not know this great joy now. I am very excited about the prospect of evangelism and I’ve had opportunity to encourage those both in and out of SG. Before I was boxed, caged… but now I am drawing water from the wells with joy, so there is joy to share.
I am at the same time however discovering how “off” my thinking had become, and am almost caught by surprise at how suspicious I can be of those in authority. I did a 180 from excessively trusting those who didn’t merit my trust, to not trusting those who do. I really have to work deliberately, praying I will not idolize man again, yet cautiously allowing myself to trust Godly leaders. I’ve been sidetracked for many years, and now feel an urgency to make the days count. God is so faithful and will teach us how to walk again…in grace.
He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the Lord require of you
but to do justice, and to love kindness and to walk humbly with your God? Mic 6:8
Canary,
Rejoicing with you in your “monumental moment!!” saying:
“Behold, God is my salvation;
I will trust, and will not be afraid;
for the Lord God is my strength and my song,
and he has become my salvation.” With joy you will draw water from the wells of salvation. And you will say in that day:
“Give thanks to the Lord,
call upon his name,
make known his deeds among the peoples,
proclaim that his name is exalted!” Is. 12:2-4
Before I was boxed-in, caged, now I am drawing water from the wells…and there is plenty to share. I have a new joy in my new freedom. I want more of my Jesus and more of His word. I am excited at the prospects ahead for evangelism and grateful for opportunities I’ve had to encourage friends both in and post SG. They’re in a desert and very thirsty.
At the same time I am also caught off guard, by how “off” my thinking is and how suspicious I have become of those in authority. I have done a 180, from placing excessive trust in those who did not merit it, to now being fearful to trust those who do. I find that I must battle/pray that the Lord would keep me from once again idolizing man, yet at the same time learn to cautiously trust Godly leaders. God is faithful and will help us each by His Spirit, “For God did not give us a spirit of timidity… of cowardice, of craven and cringing and fawning fear… but He has given us a spirit of power and of love and of calm and well-balanced mind and discipline and self-control” (2 Tim 1:7)… to walk in grace, free from the law. Praying the Lord will surprise us both with many new opportunities to share the gospel of Grace!
Hope,
Beautiful scripture! Your description of being a well is how I feel. There is much love and grace to give away to others, now.
I also have the trust issue with leadership to work through. It is like that part of me is broken. Yet, I am hopeful that the Lord will work in His perfect time to help change me where it is needed. Same with you! He has taken care of us this far. He will keep perfecting us, right?
Thanks for responding, Hope. It was such a wonderful moment for me to “hear” God and put a book about faith into the hands of that young man, whom I’ve known for so long. I just had to share my excitement with those who post here. Who else could understand, but the saints on the Refuge? Hugs to you!
That is so exciting, Canary! It’s neat to be used of God. Hopefully, you’ll be hearing from this young man soon!!
I can relate to you both on the trust issue thing… :/
Ellie,
Hopefully, we will learn to trust more carefully, not to give blind trust, and never to give it without someone earning it in some way. At least that’s how I see it. Just because some leader gives another man leadership “over” others, doesn’t mean he should immediately be followed. Example – our CG leader who really blew it. Poor man, he just wasn’t called to lead like that by the Lord, the fruit of his leadership being proof. Yet, because the Pastor okayed him, we were expected to follow without protest. The man lost his postion and the c group was disbanded, due to his poor leadership and the people who were injured.
I think a person should be followed because he/she lives so much like Jesus that wisdom and grace and the Holy Spirit are evident within him/her. Don’t you think?
I think a person should be followed because he/she lives so much like Jesus that wisdom and grace and the Holy Spirit are evident within him/her. Don’t you think?
Yes, that’s what I think should be happening, too.
What I have learned is give your trust a little at a time. As you see someone being trustworthy with what you’ve shared and open to answering questions, trust them a little more. Always be Bereans, checking what you are taught by the Bible. It’s ok to disagree here and there — is the other person ok with that, too?
Being the member of a church shouldn’t mean you’re trusting the pastor to always tell you the right thing to do when you’re making decisions about where to live or what job to take — he’s not infallible, nor is he living your life. He shouldn’t be asking for that level of trust.
liz4cps,
Welcome…good advice. I was only eighteen when I got invovled with a church that went PDI a few years later. I thought I was being taught how to walk with the Lord. The control thing was so subtle and I was too ignorant to understand. Not anymore.
You are right – a pastor should not be asking for that level of trust. Yet, that is what was taught in PDI/SGM churches I attended. I hope that is changing. A person who is being called to leave SGM should not be told by a leader that he is not mature enough to make that decision. But that actually happened. We were treated like children instead of adults. Admittedly, we embraced their teachings, allowing ourselves to ruled over because we thought they knew better. But, in the end, we stand before God alone. He will be looking at whether we have faith, not whether we obeyed the Pastor.
Trust is a precious gift to give to another. I have learned to be wary, but not closed off, in having new friendships. With leaders, I will look long and hard at their “fruit”, and I will never, ever again expect them to know more about my walk with God than God Himself. The Bible is my plumbline, and the Holy Spirit my ultimate leader.
Sometimes I wonder if I share to much of myself on this blog. Yet, I know others must see and feel the same things, and I don’t want them to think they are alone. It is so hard to work through these issues when you believe you are the only one dealing with them…
P.S. – Ellie, I hope things are going well with you.
I am still trying to sort out what authority a pastor should have, but I think this is largely related to running the church — and I believe that should be in conjunction with a board of elders.
An easy example would be someone teaching Sunday school should not be able to teach clearly unbiblical doctrine to young children. Someone at the church should have the authority to enforce this. Another example is when people from the church are working on some project, the pastor is likely to be involved in organizing the people, maybe assigning tasks, instructing them about what part of the church building they can use. There’s just a lot of day to day stuff that a pastor will need to have authority in order to have a smoothly running church.
In counseling, it gets trickier. I think the vast majority of the time, the pastor should listen, ask questions, make some suggestions, etc. Also, pray with them, encourage them, show concern. You can love a lot of sin out and a lot of healing in, by countering lies they have heard. Abusers confuse the victims, making them feel like they don’t deserve better; they aren’t worth anything and a lot of other more subtle things. Victims need to hear a lot of times that God does love them, that Jesus loves them, that He even loves the parts of them that they thought was ugly, that other people love them, too. Yes, they sin, and the pastor can help them get free of that — as can friends in the church. But that level of openness is not for everyone in the church — or everyone in your caregroup!
Good words!
I think a Pastor’s mantra should be: Let me point you to Father God, Who loves you like the precious child that you are, and to His Son, Jesus, who gave Himself because of His great love for you, and to the Power of the Holy Spirit, who resides in you, to teach you and guide you.
I believe a pastor’s key role is to teach you how to understand, know, seek, follow God (not himself).
I think he has responsibility, not necessarily authority…..responsibility to run the church (along with the elders) – and responsibility to make sure church discipline is carried out (properly) on the rare occasion it is needed.
I’ve never felt my pastor holds any authority over me, personally, and neither has any pastor tried to “lord authority over” me, but I have respected his position of responsibility.
Hi Remnant!
I agree. I’m glad you have a pastor who understands his calling, that he does not lord over others. It is easy to respect a pastor who leads us to Jesus, and to love God with all our hearts, without dictating to us. The trust is broken when a pastor takes advantage of his position through selfish ambition or a desire to control others.
I think some of the pastors I ran into had their reputations wrapped up in how well their church members looked to other leaders or to the world. It became easy for them to dictate behavior that was actually none of their business. I admit to letting that happen, and take responsibility for my own side of it.
Perhaps some had decent motives but went too far in “leading” others. Not knowing their hearts, I can only describe and discern the fruit they produced. Some of that fruit was good, and some was very, very bad. The bad fruit seemed to be the results of the authority doctrine they taught, and still teach.
I had something happen yesterday that was an amazing example of God’s grace in one of my offspring.
Many of us have wondered if our involvement in sgm has scarred our kids. I worried about that as well, when we left sgm in 1997. My oldest was then about 13. All I could do over the years was to share the grace I was learning with my five kiddos, and pray for the Lord to move in their hearts, as He was moving in mine and my husband’s. I knew that any solid faith they would grow in would have to come from His hand. I prayed for them often.
SGM deals always with sin. Yet, the Bible says that it is the goodness of God which leads men and women to repentance. Yesterday, my oldest daughter came to me for a talk. She said, “Mom, I had a dream.”
When B. says that, I know something deep is coming. She proceeded to tell me the dream, and how she awoke with the knowledge and conviction that she had hate in her heart towards an ex-friend. She had no idea, until the Lord showed her, just how bad it was.
In expressing her feelings to me, B. was actually confessing her sin. In realizing the depth of her hatred, she was acknowledging how ugly it was and that, apart from the blood of Jesus, she would be like an unbeliever heading straight for damnation. In not being able to change this thing in her heart, she was aware of her need for the Lord’s love to take away the hatred. We experienced a deep sense of spiritual unity and fellowship in the Lord as we talked for several hours.
The Lord Himself corrected my 20 year-old daughter. He was gentle, but very clear. The effect of His correction was evident almost immediately. B. understood her deep need to have the love of Jesus take over where her own human love fell short. The Lord was able to teach and convict without human aid because B.’s heart is for Him.
Having said all this, I want to encourage everyone who is reading who worries over the effects of SGM on their kids. God is able to do the same work in their hearts as He is doing in ours. As we labor in prayer for them, we will see their own faith develop. I have to say that prayer is the only credit I can take for how my kids have grown in faith. And that prayer came from desperation at not knowing how to give them real faith instead of the religious leaven that threatens God’s saints today.
I saw God’s goodness yesterday. It led my daughter to repent of her sin, without human intervention. That goodness surrounds us all. It set us free from the controlling church. It saved us from our own pharasee-ism. His goodness has given us the freedom to love Him without limits, and to grow in faith, which is what pleases God.
He does this for us. He can and will do this for our children, as well. Believe!
canary-
Rejoicing with you!
Thank you for sharing that testimony of God’s goodness with us.
Jim,
Thanks, Canary.
It’s been hard around here, so it is good to hear what you’ve written.
Gives me hope.
Ellie,
Our prayers as parents can move mountains or, in this case, teenagers! Who else will pray for them with such desperation than those who gave birth to them?
I’m sorry it has continued to be rough at home. Look for God’s goodness, because it surrounds you. Tweety hugs!
How sweet to hear of God’s work in your daughter’s life. Good words, Canary. Thanks for the encouragement.
It is really true for us that we have no greater joy than to know our children walk in truth. I will take strength from your testimony of God’s goodness and, as you suggest, BELIEVE!
Canary,
What an incredible testimony of God’s goodness and grace. As always, your words are so encouraging! Thanks for sharing.
“For the promise of the Holy Spirit is to and for you and your children…” Acts 2:39, Amplified.
Very cool Canary!
Hi all,
A friend recently found this website and told me about it. I left PDI (now SGM) back in 1997, for many of the same reasons I see posted here. I won’t bother going into all the details as they seem irrelevant now, and quite honestly, I’ve forgotten many of them. But I can see that SGM hasn’t changed, nor do I ever expect it to.
One thing I can say is that many of us who left PDI around the same time (yes, there was a mass exodus back then as well, mostly surrounding the events of Larry Tomczak) all said we very much felt as though we had stepped out of a fog upon leaving. Maybe some of you feel that way even now. The hardest thing to deal with was the loss of so-called “friends” who decided to remain behind – people with whom we had shared our lives with through blood, sweat and tears – who suddenly disappeared from our lives, and on meeting us in public, looked upon us with disdain and disgust, or in some cases, just pity. It would have been easy to endure the scorn of leadership, as they really didn’t know us anyway. But to have those we cared for so deeply (more than our own family members in some cases), those we shared meals, pregnancies, births, homeschooling, moves, emergencies and hospital stays with, turn their backs as though we had committed the unpardonable sin seemed unbearable. But I can tell you that we did survive, we are stronger for it now, and you will be as well.
I can’t explain why these things are allowed to happen, anymore than I can explain the loss of a child or any other tragedy, except to say that we are pretty much guaranteed to experience adversity in this life (as Jesus told us we would share in His sufferings) and in the end you simply have to trust in the Lord. One thing I can say is that going through these painful times really does help you to TRULY appreciate the joy in life!
My thoughts and prayers are with all of you going through this difficult and painful experience. The best advice I can give is, “trust in the Lord with ALL your heart, and don’t depend on your own understanding. Seek his will in all you do, and he will show you which path to take.” Prov. 3:5-6
Anita
I’m glad I found this website. I left SGM in 2005 after being a member for 18 months. I attended a conference back in 2000 and was disappointed, but decided to go to Covenant Life thinking things would be different. My main issue was that they wanted to change me- in particular my clothes and my thoughts. They told me how they were shocked that I was so godly yet I dressed immodestly. I have never experienced this in my years in being a Christian. The care group I belonged to were rude from coming to my home unannounced to telling people who lost their job the importance of back-tithing when they get a new one. I also had a disciple relationship with a woman in the counseling ministry who regularly swore at me because in her eyes I wasn’t repentant enough for my sins.
Despite these situations, I am thankful that God guided me through this experience. It led me to seek God in his word the concept of discipleship and He led me to Matthew 5-7. It was after I left when I experienced the grace of God in such a personal way.
Thanks for reading.
Anita,
Welcome!
Hi Amera! You are right that the sgm experience makes one have to seek the Lord . I’m very glad you experienced God’s grace after leaving. It is a beautiful thing!
Welcome Amera,
The double tithing thing just about pushed me over the edge of sanity–they actually said that???
So happy to hear of your experiencing the grace of God in a personal way. Isn’t He good when you are relating to Him through grace and not the law?
Hi Anita, Amera,
Welcome. Thanks for sharing. I can relate to what both of you have shared. I am encouraged to hear that you are, in a deeper way building your life on trust in Jesus, the rock, our foundation. I can also say that despite the ups and downs of joining, participating, confronting, leaving and ultimately finding that spacious and pleasant place in that David spoke of – it was worth it. May God heal you, bless you, and establish you firmly in the center of His will.
Greg
Here is one story that I hope will provide comic relief. A pastor visited my cell group (which was thriving at the time), and in a follow up meeting corrected me for wearing jeans with holes in the knees. You, know, it takes a long time to get a good pair of Levis that way, so I was disappointed. I thought my dress was entirely appropriate since I was single and leading singles in their 20s and 30s. He thought that it was inappropriate for someone in leadership to dress as I did, and suggest that I dress a bit above everyone else. He even made some fashion suggestions, obvioulsy based on his preppy wardrobe, You cannot believe how hard it was to control myself, to not laugh or shout. Finally after going back on forth for a while, I told him, “This is not a biblical issue. However, I will dress better, but you won’t catch me dead in khakis and docksiders.”
Greg,
Hard to believe that someone would actual act like the wardrobe police. These people can take themselves a little too seriously!
Thanks for the laugh.
Oh God, that was just the tip of the iceberg. Have you ever tried to tell leadership that the latest, must read book is heretical? It’s purely the grace of God that I did well at SGM for as long as I did.
@Gratefully Disillusioned from SGM: The care group leader asked the member if it would be something he would consider. Of course he said yes because you can’t say no to the leadership.
Thank you all for the warm welcome and encouragement; I know it sounds silly, but I really thought it was just me…
Welcome Anita and Amera,
thanks for joining in.
I’m writing this for myself more than to help anyone. I find that I need to remember that the Lord is good. The saints are hurting and that hurts us. I must remember that the Lord led me through a dry and hot desert, that his gentle hand taught me who He really is, that He is love, grace, and God of this incredible universe. He put the stars in the heavens with His own fingers. He keeps the earth in its place. He makes the tides follow their boundaries. He weeps when we weep. He meets our needs. He is faithful, kind, and just. He never lies. He has led us out of our prisons and into new life. He is our Abba, Father.
Praise the Lord of heaven and earth. We will still see the goodness of the Lord in the land of the living.
Hello Jim:
I have had previous correspondence with Jim.
I was a member for 17 years at CLC in G’Burg.
I received a letter from CJ on 9/14.
I would like to mail or fax CJ’s letter to Jim and my two letters responding to CJ’s letter to me.
I was going to do this earlier, but very busy.
I would need a mailing address or a Fax #.
Thanks,
Tom Maley
Hi Tom!
Long time no see.
Fax is: eight six six, two six two, nine 555
Email is still jim@sgmrefuge.com
Pam,
I’ve been thinking about you today, wondering how you are.
Stunned and Hope,
The Pastor of my sons’ new fellowship invited myself and my husband to Easter Sunday meeting. He knows of our past problems with controlling churches. I wanted to know if you’d both pray for me because I am seriously considering attending, just to step out of my fear. Like you both said, I will go in love and, though not giving my trust too quickly, I will not have a suspicious heart. This will be the first time I would have been to a church on Easter in many years. I’ll probably embarrass myself and cry my eyes out!
This Canary has been out of her cage for a while. I think she’s ready to fly.
Please pray that I have courage and faith to open my wings to this new wind of the Spirit. 
Oh Canary, you’re such a gift! I will pray and think of you. I am normally the last person to push someone into a church after they have been through what we’ve been through. But I suspect this little move will be a good thing, or at least a healthy thing. I will pray for you, my friend. Fly…fly…fly.
Will certainly be praying for you!! Don’t be afraid Canary bird your Father loves you and will lead you, just follow.
Fly…you’ll always be in the shadow of His wings.
You have kept count of my tossings;
put my tears in your bottle.
Are they not in your book?
Then my enemies will turn back
in the day when I call.
This I know, that God is for me.
In God, whose word I praise,
in the Lord, whose word I praise,
in God I trust; I shall not be afraid.
What can man do to me? Ps. 56:8-11
You have been my help,
and in the shadow of your wings I will sing for joy. Ps 63:7
Oh wow, I am overwhelmed by encouragement. Thank you Hope and Stunned. The Saints here have been my fellowship, and have taught me to how to trust again. I hope the people at the Refuge (especially Jim and Carole) understand what a great work has been done in my heart through the grace shown here. I’m actually ready get out there and try again. Thank you, thank you everyone! What a great place of refuge this is…
Stunned, I will copy those verses and fix them in my heart.
Pam, I am praying for you today!
Canary,
Thanks so much for your prayers! It has been a trying week. I found out that I may have some sort of tumor on my foot so I had an MRI Friday. But I also had a wonderful blessing come our way. The bank made a $2500 error and didn’t see it at first. I was not sleeping because I couldn’t figure out where the money was. I always look forward to your posts because they are filled with care.
Thanks again!
Pam
Oh Pam, I’m sorry about the tumor. I hope it is nothing serious. The Lord will walk with you no matter what. Don’t let fear drain you of faith. I know the temptation to think of all the “what if’s”. Focus on God’s goodness. Can you let me know how it goes? If not here, go to aftersgm@gmail.com for more privacy.
And yeah about the money showing up. What a relief. When you feel care from my posts, I want you to know that it is really the Lord’s care. It is how He cares for you. I just got that same sort of care from Stunned and Hope. Also from Carole. It is the most amazing thing to experience the Lord’s love through His saints. You think, Lord, do you really love me like that? Why? How? And we can’t really answer that – we just have to believe it and receive it. That’s what grace is all about.
I’ll be praying for you, as I know others reading here will as well. Have a restful Sunday in the Lord. Big Canary hugs!!!
Canary — I will be thinking about you on Easter morning. If you need to sit on the back row and cry, that’s FINE. Meanwhile, I’m praying for you. He will cover you with his feathers and shelter you under His wings…you won’t be flying alone.
Thank you, Square Peg. I really appreciate your prayers.
Greg,
Do you remember in the late 80s/early 90s when guys with mullets were no longer allowed to serve at the book table?
Yeah, that was odd.
I knew a married guy who wore an ear ring and carried a bag strapped around his shoulder like Europeans did. He was refreshingly himself. However, once he was pegged for worship team involvement, gone went the ear ring and bag. Gone went his individuality. Ho-hum…
keepinstep said, “Do you remember in the late 80s/early 90s when guys with mullets were no longer allowed to serve at the book table?”
They really became fashion police and not merely modesty police, the sin police and make your child say hi to strangers police? Man, had I known that there were fashion police around I would have been sure to turn in some of the women in the church who were actually held up as members to to admire. (I swear, if anyone of them would have fit any more blue eyeshadow on their faces, they wouldn’t have been able to open their eyes.)
Guys with mullets couldn’t work at the book table??? Oh my. Guess they better not plant any churches in the Deep Deep South, where, sadly, mullets still abound…
At our SGM church, you had to wear a tie if you were a guy and on the podium. So all the worship team guys dutifully wore ties as they pranced around like rock stars.
What can you expect from a movement where Haute Couture began with Sundresses and long hair for women and khakis and docksiders for men? Seriously though, dress codes and the legalism that creates them is prevalent in much of the church around the world, so SGM cannot be singled out for this. However, I expected more from a “grace” oriented denomination.
Pam, how are you doing? How did the MRI turn out? Well, I pray!
I am a new viewer to this page…I am for sure amazed at how far the Ministry has come in the last 35+ years…and that there are so many folks that have had less than great experiences…a few of the blog sites do not meet w/ my approval due to the language or accusations…but I do understand that this is a very charged topic to say the least…
First of all a bit about why I am even posting. I was a part of the group way before it was “big and famous”. TAG , which is really its hard core root’s was a meeting that took place initially at a small rec center…then we went to high schools, and then finally ended up @ Christ Church on mass avenus in Washington DC…then of course the “core group” which was sort of the smaller group of believer’s from TAG that met at a few places, most noted Bob Patton’s basement(’74), where by the way is where the first “Gathering of Believers ” meeting took place.
I was close friends with all those folk’s…and was very excited to be a part of all the ministry that was going on…pretty much focused on the ministry’s of CJ & Larry…two fellows that I really admired and totally wanted to be a part of what they were doing…those were days that in my opinion really reveal why so many things that now , in a much ,much larger format, are offensive to so many of you.The roots& planting of a tree do truly show its destiny.
My wife and I were married in ’75 surrounded by our friendships from TAG…life was a lot simpler then, and for me being apart of all that was the most important thing to me in my life. The reality is though, that I never really fit in all the way…CJ & Larry exuded a sense of “being together” and focus that so many of us back then were so attracted to. We followed every message and would work on applying all the principles we picked up every week to our lives as much as possibble…I was a close companion w/Che then…and went everywhere with hime before I got married…back then to be a part of the “core group” was considered a very “spiritual” thing…but it is also where I saw (like they say, hindsight is always 20/20) things that now as a much older person had red flags all over them.
This was at a time when the discipleship, movement was in full swing…and everyone had there own take on it.CJ & Larry never bought into the deep parts…but for sure did use the “follow me as I follow Christ” theme extensively. As I look back now at the reach and grab for position was overwhelming. People would do anything to be closer to the leadership, which for me put a bad taste in my mouth early on. It was like a room with 20 MBA’s trying to get one of 5 positions. Lots of competition for attention of the leaders time, something that I guess my old” hippie roots” just could not get into at all. I had friends that would do just about anything to be recognised by the Two, it was unquestionably a full on status symbol to eat or spend time with one of them…and the fact that I thought they were being semly never met with any sort of acceptance at all. It was the “status quo”, always cloaked in super spiritual terms..but IMHO still nothing but the “flesh” they were so opposed to just coming out all over the place.
From 1974 to 1985 I tried to fit in…I had three children in the school, organized work days for the church, was a foremen in the construction company that was based by members in the church, was a part of the food co-op, and even managed the first softball team that the Gaithersburg church had. My wife was loved by all, and she was for sure the “better half” in all this, she fit in much more easily than I did…I was always “turned off”by the way that some would adore the leadership, and believe anything they presented. Somehow I thought disagreeing was not a sign of rebellion…I was aprticularly bothered by the financial advice given…I always had a hard time w/ these guys that never held a job in their life basically and got real nice incomes, had cushy places(by the standards then)would tell regular folks how to manage their lives…I guess I was a little too much of what Gary Riccucci called me one day…”a working class hero” someone that the leadership was for sure challenged by for apparent reasons, and did not like.We were there during the entire law suit w/ Larry that really drained the church, and still supported as best we could. I realised that I was not happy and wanted out…but also wanted so much to be a part of my friends I had there…a real quagmire for me and my wife.
eventually I was confronted by CJ’s brother in law that the church no longer had faith for myself and my family…a day that then was probably the most difficult day of my life , but also probably the most neccesary. I was a “round peg trying to fit into a square hole”…it can be done, but is not what the plan really call’s for. The middle class parameter’s of what the ministry was based on, the absoloute devotion to the leadership and the requirement to adhere to all edict’s and belief’s they held to was just too much . I was told the reason’s for dismissing my family were that I thought too highly of myself and that I was unteachable…also that I was not complying with the new guidlines to wear a suit and tie to sunday meetings(expected of established members like myself)…I was an artist type that tried to dress every meeting in my best clothes I owned… I think the real reason after all these years is because CJ & Carolyn did not really like me, maybe not personnaly, because aside from basic affiliation , we were never close. The things I represented thay could be potentially a threat to what they were building…so be it…that was his right entirely, and in reality I was better off beeing away from them…I was told that there would never be any gossip or slander towards me about our seperation, which I fully believed, but found out in short order that CJ had personnaly contacted other local leaders an given his bias on myself( and totally smeared me)…something that is probably the only thing that I ever really held against him…he lied about what he had promised, and really only made his position more clear…the funny thing was that I still admired and respected him and his position…and was really only wanting a dialog that would allow me to somehow fit in. The reality of what it did for my family was devastating, something that to this day, almost 30 years still has effects. Especially w/ my 3 Sons. We were ostracized immediately , my children had to leave the school…my friends for ten years did not associate with me at all…unfortunately I did not handle it all that good for a few years until I had God’s hand let me know that he still accepted me…I guess I deep inside took the rejection from the people that I so admired as a nessage from God…what a mistake!…
I just wish that there could have been a way for folks to have been accepted for the gifts they had to bring to the tribe…and that there would have been more tolerance for people like myself…there are hundred’s of stories like mine that I know equally effected lives for many years…In retrospect after seeing what it all evolved into, I have mixed emotions…yes I was a very young person( I am now 55) that was working out his salvation that wanted more than anything to be a part of God’s purpose…who was devoted to his friends there…but there were also things that made me not feel comfortable too…but CJ did affect the world for Christ in a very positive way…and he is to be commended for that…I just dont understand why so many folks had to be hurt…It appears that there are still some difficulties for some…hence this forum…I think that the
personalities of leaders do for sure dictate a ministries course, be that for good or bad.
bottom line…I wish them all well, and hope that the end will truly justify the means…this has and will always be an enigma for me in my walk w/ Christ…something that will never really make sense to me at all…t
Pam, it’s me again, the annoyingly nosey yellow bird. I’ve been praying for you. Don’t turn around too suddenly or you will bump into the Lord, who is standing THAT close to you! He will never fail you or forsake you. He is with you every moment, even if you cannot feel Him. Just felt like I needed to tell you that. Hugs! Canary
Hi Theodore,
Thanks for sharing and shedding some light on the roots of the current state of affairs. While I probably don’t understand the enigma of SGM any more than you do, I completely understand what you experienced and how you are feeling. May you and your family find that “broad place” of grace and rest that scripture speaks of.
bottom line…I wish them all well, and hope that the end will truly justify the means…this has and will always be an enigma for me in my walk w/ Christ…something that will never really make sense to me at all…
It is very hard to make sense of it all.
Theodore
Welcome to the blog and sorry to hear your sad story. That must be rough to have invested all these years and then to be force out from the group.
One thing I realized after leaving is that PDI/SGM/CLC is a conformance type group just as I understand the Japanese culture typically is. They may say that they value individuality etc. but they are expecting conformance. Leaders don’t want and many times resent those that question. Most care group leaders and those that move up the “food chain” are those that don’t question and are loyal to those above them.
What is really hard is that the group won’t come out and admit this and maybe they leaders really think they are more open then their actions have historically shown. I am it is hard for you to have experienced this contradiction and wonder if it was you. Now at least with this and other blogs you find that you weren’t the only one to experience this.
Mahaney certainly has the gift of speaking and can be quite an intoxicating in how he speaks. Some of that is harder to see when one hears him speak often or is part of the SGM culture that almost idolizes him. After I left it was a lot easier to see problems with his messages.
It is sad that you indicate Mahaney himself called other pastors and bad mouthed you.
I have a distinct feeling that some things have never changed…well maybe gotten a bit more complicated as far as (there are about 100 churches??)wow…thats a lot of folks…so it appears that many are enamored with the concept?? I must admit I have not read all the post’s , blog’s etc…there are quite a few…but it must be a pretty acceptable and marketed movement??…I wonder why folks that see others leave (or are asked to leave) just accept it and keep on with the status quo…I know that there is a prounounced fear to challenge the oracle of God etc…and quite frankly “fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom”, but at what point are we allowed to question or challenge proffessor’s of what they believe is God’s word?? especially when there are specific discrepiancies that should require explanataion…
scripture say that unless two can see the same how can they walk together?? but also” iron does sharpen iron”…and a certain amount of challenge is a very healthy thing…insecurity , especially if things are done in an appropriate manner, would be the only thing that would preclude openess…t
Thanks Canary, I didn’t see your post till today. We are in Maine for the week. I feel so loved that you take the time to think of me. I’m going through a feeling of loneliness since I’ve lost the friends I had for over 20 years. But then on my facebook a friend from my former sgm church sent me a message that she had been talking about me (good things) and wanted to see how I was doing. I’m afraid to get into conversations that will ultimately lead toward the question of why we left. I don’t think I have the energy to talk about it. How do you continue any friendship with people from there when their whole life is sgm? I’m not sure where I stand on anything anymore except that Jesus is my savior and all the rest-meaning doctrine, theology, courting, women’s place in life, can just leave me alone. I feel like even as we go on to year 2 since we left, I am still going round and round about whether I want anything to do with the organized church. I literally can’t think that way right now. It really feels weird to not be a part of something but whenever we have visited any church, the sermons pretty much turn me off. If I posted some of this before, forgive me.
Sorry if I am off post… there are a few conversations going on here…I am sure that a lot of you are friends and communicate here…
I would like to respond to a post I just read…Pam…it took me several years of dealing with the rejection and pain associated with what happened to my family…my wife was always a bit stronger in these matters…at least so it always appears, but for me I just wish I had gotten counseling to deal with it all…the heaviness of it all makes us look at ourselves way to closely. Trust me, it can affect your life for a long time if you let it. It is so important to become apart of a solid place to worship & fellowship…I recomend something like a Calvary Chapel type fellowship(Chuck Smith)…focused on the word, the basics and no special attachment doctrines…thats the best way to get back on track with your life in Christ…
I went for almost twenty years before I realized that my life was not spiritually over after being booted…my Sons hold a grugde against God to this day because of the way we were uprooted…and this is something I prasy for every day…I am sure the Leadership would say something like it was a” judgement on me”…I like the new expression(well kind of new, LOL)…whatever!…it could not be further from the truth…God had a plan for me…and the ministry you all call SGM, and I call Covenant Life could have really used a soul’s like myself and my wife me back in the day… but they chose another way…their Calvanism falls all apart here…
Life is looked at by us as a matter of days, years etc…but to our Heavenly Father time is not something that confines him…I just Praise God that I finally got a window into reality and realized that my life was not over with him…and that he was going to use not only my relationship with the folks mentioned, but also all the other things that I have dealt with while working out my Salvation for the better of not only his kingdom…but also for my peace and happiness…
my story has gone on way too long…and I am a bit embarrassed about it for sure…sometimes I cant believe myself that this all happened to us back in ’85…I know a few folks from back in the day that are totally shipwrecked because of what happened to them…I cant speak for or comprehend what they have gone through…but I can make a decision to finally move on…and make a difference for Christ in my life…t
Pam,
This can be such a lonely time. I know. Oh, how I know. I believe that is why we women who have lost so much need each other, even if it can only be online right now.
I’m sure the confusion is awful. Why did this happen? What is truth? As far as not attending a church, don’t feel pressured. You see me writing about attending my first Easter church meeting this coming month since we left PDI (1997). The Lord has given me other means of fellowship over the years (house church at one point, family, this blog). He has been so good.
However, I now feel that He is asking me to step back into the arena, so to speak, because I need to face my fear that it will all happen again. You give your trust, your love, your service, your support to leaders who turn out to be manipulators and false shepherds. I don’t think I could go through that again, but I must face this fear because it is time, and because I know a whole lot more about life and God than I did 13 years ago. Hope said I should go in love, not suspicion, and Stunned said I should not give my trust too quickly, that it’s all right to take my time . That is invaluable advice I will take with me on my bold step of faith on Easter Sunday.
You have to take your time. That’s what I learned. Finding Jesus again, the simplicity of knowing Him, of what grace really means…who knows how long this will take as the Lord guides you. Only He does. Only He knows how to heal your wounded heart. He will show you what false doctrines to throw out. He will show you what was good and what was bad in the things you were taught. Right now you need time. Be free. Your salvation is not repealed because you are no longer in a local church (contrary to what some pastors appear to believe).
Maybe because of women like Stunned, Hope, Elllie, Carole, and others who come here to share, who have gone before you, maybe your road to truth will be a little easier than ours was. You will get through the sadness. You will! There is freedom in where you are going. I promise you that faith in Jesus, walking with Him in the simple ways He taught, will eventually renew your joy in the Lord.
If you want to email more privately, you can reach me at aftersgm.gmail.com. You are not alone in this, okay? Big hugs from a praying Canary
theodore,
I didn’t see your post before I wrote Pam. I’m so sorry you had to go through all you did alone. So did I and my husband. What a surprise to find later that the same thing was happening to others. How much quicker we might have understood what we needed to in order to move on.
It might have taken you a while, but you did survive. You are still walking with the Lord. Now, you are encouraging others, like Pam. There is a purpose for everything under the sun, even our “disfellowshipping” from PDI/SGM.
Pam,
Dear one (dear to the Lord, I know this to be true), HE will lead you. HE will guide you. HE will show you when and where He wants you to go. Don’t rush. Don’t run ahead of Him. DON’T condemn yourself or push yourself harder than He asks you to. I yearned for fellowship and was terrified of it, wanted it, was repulsed by it- all in the same mixed up ball of yarn. One day I was walking down an aisle in CVS and walked past Oprah’s magazine, O. I hadn’t been a big fan of the magazine, but suddenly I knew I needed to pick it up. (I think it was an article about loneliness that caught my eye.) I picked it up, paged through the article and then and there, in the middle of a pharmacy aisle I felt God saying that He was finally releasing me to get involved in a fellowship. I thought I would cry for joy (and fear) all at once. I bought the mag, took it home and read the article. Kept it near my bed for a while because it comforted me and reminded me of His love. I got involved in the church I had been visiting off and on. Then I got less involved. Then I got very involved. Then after a few years of that, just recently I joined. Gulp. Double big gulp. I was scared as I stood before the church and looked out at the sea of faces. (OK, only 150 or so people there so maybe it was a lake of faces.) I thought of all of us here and at SGM Survivors. I went on. It was OK. I was acutely aware of how glad I was that I let myself wait these 8+ years before joining. Many years before getting involved. Many years without going to church much. It was healthy. It was healthy for me and it was healthy for my relationship with God.
He will lead you. He will.
I like the way you put it…thank’s…its amazing how so much of this stuff affects us…I for one am finally feeling like I can move on…there have been times over the years where I thought I was damaged goods…it is truly an insidious attempt from the enemy to destroy us…especially the more sensitive people that were dis whatever they call it…I know some that really took it hard.
we all know that with the internet and blog’s etc that these words are all noticed by the powers be…I just hope whomever he( CJ, or “Charles” as he wanted to be called for a while) has assigned to keep on top of such things has the courage to inform him of all these things…or maybe he does that himself…who know’s…he seems to have some time on his hands after reading his supper bowl blog…LOL…
there is no practical way that amends or changes now can correct the past( this goes back to 1974)…but I hope that there is a moment of truth for CJ that he would consider the possibility that he,Gary,Robin(not to mention the wive’s…who had a lot to do with this all too) & the others were in error… and that its never too late to change…God never gave them the right or power to hurt so many folks, and damage so many lives…his manifest destiny purveying his doctrinal stands are a camoflauge for some other forms of ego and self righteousness… I really do pray for him…especially when he does realize what he has done he can also recieve the true“Sovereign Grace” from God and change…and forgive himself…that will be his greatest challenge, or mistake if he decides to ignore this all.
Jesus Christ is commited to bringing us all to maturity( that means everyone that calls on his name)…and sometimes it is very hard to believe it will come to pass…I know that I have been so lost on all this for a very long time, and that I am by no mean’s perfect , and need that grace myself 100%. God’s grace is for sure sufficient in everything we are faced with…thanks for your remarks…and for giving me a chance to heal a bit more on these matters…t
Thanks Canary, Theodore and Stunned! I almost stopped reading the Refuge and Survivors because they made me feel too depressed. I think I’m especially down right now because I lost my Mother 3 months ago and broke my foot in 3 places and couldn’t do much. I have always felt responsible for all my kids choices and now that the 2 affected by sgm would rather have their fingernails ripped out than go to church, I wish I could fix it. I know I’m too codependent? but I take the verses about raising my child up seriously. How old are they? 18 and 21. I still feel responsible so maybe some of this is growing pains of going into a new stage in life. Anyway, sorry for the negative post. Thanks for being here.
Pam,
I’m deeply sorry for the loss of your mother. It is very traumatic to loose a parent, whether or not we are close to him/her.
As for the kid thing, we have to know where our responsibility begins and ends with them. SGM had us so wrapped up in raising them to be godly, we forgot to raise them by faith. It is something we will do for a lifetime – praying for them and trusting the Lord to call them to Himself.
You also might be dealing with “empty nest” syndrome – you know, when you’ve spent your life raising your beautiful kids, only to have them grow up and become independent. How dare they! Hee-hee.
Isn’t that what our goal was? But somehow we begin to feel like they don’t need us anymore. They do, but in a different way. Rest in the Lord, Pam. Rest in His mercy and lovingkindness, for He promises that “you and your household shall be saved.”
Theodore,
Your heart is good that you are able to pray for the ones who wounded you. That is the love of Jesus, so be encouraged. Some sgmers come on here all angry and upset, accusing us of bitterness. They don’t get it, that our hearts are not for sgm to go under, because we care for the saints we once walked next to. We want to see these saints freed to walk by faith, not under compulsion. When I hear of pastors like Brent D. being forced to resign, I don’t dance a victory dance to celebrate, even though he was one of the leaders responsible for my family having to leave pdi/sgm. I feel saddened that all the admonishments brought to him over the years by men like my husband were ignored. If Brent had just tried to hear, maybe the Lord would have redeemed everything for him. I still pray for his family.
So it seems like you are in a good place. It is good to pray for those who wronged us, that they might find God’s mercy. Like you said, none of us are perfect and equally need the grace of God in our lives.
what is so incredible to me is the line up of people that are asked to leave etc…back in the day Brent d. was one of the most hard core of hard cores…Larry Tomzcak,Che Ahn…all were a part of the system too( spell that the Apostolic team)…now where are they??…I am speaking rhetorically, it seems that maybe there might be a “time of enlightment” for even the elite…I knew all these guys personally, some very,very well. I was shocked when the ones that I was so related to never gave me a lifeline…Larrys wife did…but she was the only one…all the others practiced the “old school” method of shunning…
when I spoke with Larry a few years ago(and for those that dont know, he used to be the real “head honcho”), he acted to me like he was also a victim…yikes…where was that back when Larry?…fact in this case is stranger than fiction…
OK…enough stuff from the time machine…like I said…Covenant Life, SGM and that other name…all have their own problems…the deep feelings and consciences of everyone does bend sooner or later…unfortunately some may wait until the very last second…I hope that some of those that survey this site indeed ask the Lord if there is any truth to all this, maybe they will have their own reckoning and see with new eyes…thats the Holy Spirit’s department…to change men’s hearts and perfect the church…our main job…and I mean #1 is to not ever allow bitterness or anger take root in our lives so that we dont hear God…this is what the enemy would love more than any thing at all…
So in closing…here is my statement…I hope that CJ Mahaney does indeed have a meeting w/ Christ on this matter , and that he see the err of his ways and discontinue the practices of the past , and quit hurting and wounding people that dont agree with him… and find that we are really not enemy’s but brothers and sisters in Christ…
we are all responsible for the mandate to reach folks for the Lord in these times…
we are also responsible for all our actions…that includes forgiving those that have wronged us, so that we may be clean of sin too…and move on in our lives and fulfill that which God has called us to do…happiness is” all this stuff ” in the rear view mirror…t
theodore,
thanks so much for posting and sharing with us. it’s almost like a big brother showing up who has been through the same things you are going through now.
We’re glad you’re here.
{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{ Pam }}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}} love ya!!!
Thanks, Ellie!!!!!!!
you all are very nice…but do we have the “right stuff” to move on and make our lives count??…I hope I do & of course you folks too…I am trying to figure out what that actually means for me…I want more than anything for my life to make a difference for Christ…I will not allow any of the “junk” that went on back when to mold or conform me any longer…
that sounds pretty radical I guess…but it is my hearts desire not only for me but also for anyone that was ripped off the way I and my family were…I am here to say that I believe that God will restore to us the years of the Locust…and give a share similar to that of Jopseph for our hardships…we can do it!…all we need do is to have faith and believe that we really matter to God…
self esteem is probably one of the first casualties from all this…so I guess focusing on correcting that is a priority…we need to be just like a relay runner in a race…knowing when to grab the batton and going for the prize is next…its not easy for sure…but our peace and happiness is dependent on it…t
“The Bible says, “…he that is dead is freed from sin. Now if we be dead with
Christ, we believe we shall also live with him” (Romans 6:7-8).
What that means is simply this: Since the matter of your slavery to sin is a
dead issue, seeing that Christ has already declared you emancipated, you are
now free to live as a new person in Christ by thinking of yourself as
unchained.
Christ can’t make you do right, and Satan can’t make you do wrong. Christ
declares you are free by faith, but you must act as a free person.”
DAVID WILKERSON from “No Longer Slaves” 3/22/10
Oh gosh, Waters, it’s happening to me, now. The breaks in the lines above are completely unintentional. Hee-hee
Uh oh, it’s in moderation too, so you can’t even read what I’m talking about. 
There is a ministry that helped us a LOT when we first withdrew from SGM: it’s Freedom In Christ and they have the most wonderful list of WHO we are IN CHRIST, and so from the website, http://www.ficm.org here’s a list:
If you are a Christian, then the statements below are true of you. I pray they bless your heart and soul as you consider the Truth about you and how the God of the Universe sees you:
I am accepted…
John 1:12
I am God’s child.
John 15:15
As a disciple, I am a friend of Jesus Christ.
Romans 5:1
I have been justified.
1 Corinthians 6:17
I am united with the Lord, and I am one with Him in spirit.
1 Corinthians 6:19-20
I have been bought with a price and I belong to God.
1 Corinthians 12:27
I am a member of Christ’s body.
Ephesians 1:3-8
I have been chosen by God and adopted as His child.
Colossians 1:13-14
I have been redeemed and forgiven of all my sins.
Colossians 2:9-10
I am complete in Christ.
Hebrews 4:14-16
I have direct access to the throne of grace through Jesus Christ.
I am secure…
Romans 8:1-2
I am free from condemnation.
Romans 8:28
I am assured that God works for my good in all circumstances.
Romans 8:31-39
I am free from any condemnation brought against me and I cannot be separated from the love of God.
2 Corinthians 1:21-22
I have been established, anointed and sealed by God.
Colossians 3:1-4
I am hidden with Christ in God.
Philippians 1:6
I am confident that God will complete the good work He started in me.
Philippians 3:20
I am a citizen of heaven.
2 Timothy 1:7
I have not been given a spirit of fear but of power, love and a sound mind.
1 John 5:18
I am born of God and the evil one cannot touch me.
I am significant…
John 15:5
I am a branch of Jesus Christ, the true vine, and a channel of His life.
John 15:16
I have been chosen and appointed to bear fruit.
1 Corinthians 3:16
I am God’s temple.
2 Corinthians 5:17-21
I am a minister of reconciliation for God.
Ephesians 2:6
I am seated with Jesus Christ in the heavenly realm.
Ephesians 2:10
I am God’s workmanship.
Ephesians 3:12
I may approach God with freedom and confidence.
Defended,
Wonderful! I’m going to copy all those verses. These verses bring grace and freedom.
I just read something today in 1 Peter 2:9-10:
“But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a dedicated nation, [God's] own purchased, special people, that you may set forth the wonderful deeds and display the virtues and perfections of Him Who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light. Once you were not a people [at all], but now you are God’s people’ once you were unpitied, but now you are pitied and have received mercy.” Amplified Bible
Responding to Theodore’s post, quotes arte his (and this is after reading all of those wonderful and encouraging Bible verses
“you all are very nice…but do we have the “right stuff” to move on and make our lives count??…I hope I do & of course you folks too…I am trying to figure out what that actually means for me…I want more than anything for my life to make a difference for Christ…I will not allow any of the “junk” that went on back when to mold or conform me any longer…”
It has taken years and years and I have also realized that I had serious issues to allow people like this to control me in the first place. First, God doesn’t make junk, second, we are all His precious children and our lives count. I would never ever imagine the rich and meaningful life I have now. All these blessings have ruined me to ever be able to squeeze into such a small, cramped mold.
“that sounds pretty radical I guess…but it is my hearts desire not only for me but also for anyone that was ripped off the way I and my family were…I am here to say that I believe that God will restore to us the years of the Locust…and give a share similar to that of Jopseph for our hardships…we can do it!…all we need do is to have faith and believe that we really matter to God…”
In a way, I am glad for my experiences because it has sensitized me to other people and their suffering. I also have that experience to contrast with what I have now by God’s grace.
“self esteem is probably one of the first casualties from all this…so I guess focusing on correcting that is a priority…we need to be just like a relay runner in a race…knowing when to grab the batton and going for the prize is next…its not easy for sure…but our peace and happiness is dependent on it…”
My self esteem suffered tremendously (as I hinted at before, there wasn’t much self-esteem to begin with. In fact, I started being a troublemaker because I was afraid my *daughters* were going to be treated asa second class citizens and the thing that got me ousted was advocating for babies and small children.) At the time, I wasn’t worth the effort. It is so critically important for all of God’s sons and daughters to know how significant they are; God does not make disposable junk.
I second Defended’s post. My wife and I are going through Neil Anderson’s “Restored” and meditating on once verse per day from that list. It’s great. I wish I had the benefit of focusing on our identiy in Chirst (as opposed to indwelling sin) much sooner.
DB, AMEN!!!!!!!!!!! Ah, if only we had realized this sooner.
I guess its all really up to us now with how things turn out…OK…it was not good what happened…and yes it was for sure a difficult chapter for us all…but lets talk now about how we are overcoming all this…like the last post…
I am, now a part of a small growing fellowship in the mountains about an hour from Denver that is of a non denominational bent…maybe 225 members…Jesus Christ is #1…and reaching the local folks for the kingdom is the first priority…I am challenged on a regular basis not to let things from the past affect me…I am more confident in myself all the time…I might actually be (what I consider) a healthy Christian again someday…LOL…
because of my actual age…I am I guess supposed to be mature believer…maybe I am …and that I need just to walk in those shoes…and not look back at the failures (or whatever you call them) of the past…
good luck to you all…and I really mean that!…t
So Theodore, are you an hour due west of Denver? I’m south in Monument/COS
Hi Greg…I live in Pine…between Conifer & Bailey…we got about a foot of snow last night…I work as an artist and fly fishing guide …BTW…here is a post I did on another site…might be of interest…actually it should to anyone that is affected by all this…heart felt stuff for sure…
http://spiritualtyranny.com/fa.....mment-7130
I do not subscribe to all posted …but it did allow me an oppurtunity to communicate w/ some otherwise unavailable to me…I hope all is well with you…ted
greg, ted, we know those towns! We’re not far, tho closer to Denver than you all.
Snow is wonderful….then gone in 3 days. Love it.
Thanks for the link, I’m going to check it out. I can’t speak for Defender (my sweetheart) but I look back at the way LT was treated, and feel stupid for my believing the letter we got from Vatican/G’burg.
Hey, I live in the mountains just outside of CO Springs. Small world! We got a foot of snow here. Now it is 19 degrees, but it will be warming up again in no time. Amazing how the weather changes so fast here.
So it looks like a bunch of us got sick of CLC and DC and moved to Colorado. Not a bad choice. Ted, I want to learn to fly fish this year. I’ve been bottom fishing lake trout. If any one wants to get together for a fishing trip or something else, Jim can provide my email address. Blessings
that is pretty funny…I have been a few places since ClCC …but ended up here to work for a ministry…then a buffalo rancher…and to top it off a fly fishing guide/artist…I am not sure yet what I want to be when I grow up…
I must admit dealing with all this SGM/CLCC stuff threw me a curve…I was not aware how much it still affected me…so many years of hiding and covering it up…
thanks to all that have posted…t
I would like to make a little follow up…and give some really beautiful news…my old friend…and once leader in CLCC , Chuck…just had a very nice conversation…and we have set aside all that happened in the past…and are now conversing about what may happen in the future…
this is all a direct result of this site and also the survivor’s one…PTL…there is actually life after all this…and for me it has been 25 years…God is faithful for sure…and his timing is quite fine with me…
my challenge here is for folks to not allow bitterness or sorrow to disallow your chances to get things right…it can happen…and my prayers for 25 years were this weekend answered…rejoice with us both…ted
Rejoicing with you!
I would hope this gives all a reason to do the same…if this is not the desired affect of not only this site, but others as well…then what is the reason…spiritual healing is most likely the reason we are all here isnt it?…I know thats why I came…I know that may sound a bit selfish…but I have been looking for an answer to all this for a very long time…
I believe that God is trying to do the same for many of us…and if not at least rejoice that there has finally come to pass a reconciliation to what happened in the past for me…I count too……t
BTW…thanks Canary…t
CJ…Chip Ward had a prophecy back in 75?…it was a direct quote from Shakespeare…”where then is thy sting o’ death”…do you remembner that?? I do, as do many more that will take the time to recollect…and all I can say is that the sting has finally been removed…you might want to take a second look at all this…some of us are cursed with a remarkable memory…but now it is a blessing…ted
theodore,
you might want to check out 1 Cor. 15:51-57, esp. v. 55 (vs. Shakespeare).
just a thought.
rejoicing with you, btw
(matt. 10:16)
Canary, Waters…..has anyone heard from Happymom since 1/31?
just wondering………hope all is well with her.
Ted-awesome!
Defended- Carole and HM are email buddies. She’s doing well. Strong lady with a Strong God.
I was never involved with SG, but I am praying for some people attending there now. I was in another cult-like “church” for many years and I know what it’s like to leave and be shunned. As I read through this site I empathize with many of the feelings I see expressed. I just want to encourage everyone to stay focused on Christ and to go deep into the Scripture for insight into how God wants you to live. When you’ve left a legalistic “church” you can feel like throwing out everything you ever heard. I know that I did. But cults usually teach some real truth mixed in with the false (that’s how they fool people). The key is to figure out what is true according to the Bible and as God fills you with His Spirit to discern. There are many things that are taught in the scriptures that may not be “the law”, but if you pay attention to them in your own life, you find some blessings attached. An example is what is written in many of the Proverbs. For a long time I threw out parts of the Bible that my old “church” had emphasized, just because those parts reminded me of that “church”. I now realize that those passages had nothing to do with that “church”, but they had everything to do with God’s love for me. Psalm 119:105 “Thy Word is a lamp unto my feet and a light to my path.” Praise be to God for all good things! And our trials also, from which we learn the most.
Patricia,
That is good advice. I remember not being able to read anything by Paul because of the intense focus on his “rules” in our church. After a while, I was able to read his stuff with the help of the spirit and received new insight. Paul was actually FOR freedom in Christ.
To everyone: I went to an Easter service at my sons’ church on Sunday. My whole family attended. When I walked into the foyer of the high school where they meet (dejavu!), I was unafraid. I am a different person than the one who fled pdi 13 years ago. It is amazing to me. It’s like a seed that was planted and began to grow without me noticing, until I saw it on Sunday. My thankfulness to God fills me to overflowing. Thanks to those who prayed for me!
Canary,
That is so nice Canary… what a special Easter gift for you all…also standing by…I never knew that was really from scripture…I thought only Shakespeare…
I appreciate you all so much…ted
Canary— I posted on Metro asking about your Easter Sunday— so very thrilled to hear you walked into a gathering of Believers without fear (the great love of God made no room for fear of potentially religous people!!)— Yes, we have all been benficiaries of the ‘seed’ of Life in you—and watering us, as Jesus said….from your ‘innermost being,shall flow rivers of living water”…….
Canary, I am seeing that all these years, God has been and is, faithful to His own.He has been sowing Light ahead on our path for us!! :
PS 97:10-12———– “Hate evil, you who love the Lord, Who preserves the souls of His Godly ones; He delivers them from the hand of the wicked. Light is sown like seed for the righteous, and gladness for the upright in heart. be glad in the Lord, you righteous ones; And give thanks to His Holy Name.”
What a beautiful picture of our covenant keeping God— He is always spiritually moving on our behalf: Preserving—Sowing Light—-Delivering—-Redeeming—-Restoring
And always, His Word IS a lamp for our feet and a Light for our path (PS 119:105)
Rejoicing with all of the saints!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Waters,
I’m feelin’ the love! Hee-hee – sounds like you are overflowing as well. I love it!
Ted, we are glad you are here.
I have never been a member of SGM, but my best friend, and eventual boyfriend, is an intern with the college ministry at his SGM church.
I’ll change his name, but Michael and I met at a Christian camp we both attended and then worked at as counselors in the summer. He became a Christian through his SGM church’s campus outreach. I attended school in a different state, but we became best friends, not only because our shared love for Christ, but because we genuinely were passionate about similar things in life… we loved adventure and people and the outdoors. I do not come from a church background and since becoming a Christian 7 years ago I have been involved with an array of different churches with different doctrinal/denominational standpoints. Through this, I have been able to test doctrine of churches against scripture and my conscience to figure out what I believe the Lord asks from me and to understand his character more fully. Michael, on the other hand, only knew SGM’s take on Biblical doctrine, church communities, small group Bible studies, “missions”, evangelism, and of God’s character.
The more we hung out as best friends, the more strange things I noticed about Michael, which I just rationalized to be due to differences in our personalities. He would get very very frustrated over his sin. He would withdraw from people and be introverted and talk all the time about needing to rely on Jesus to get rid of his sin. I could tell that he felt like a terrible person. He was always discussing his weaknesses, even though he would always tag-line them with “but by God’s grace He is pointing them out to me… or Jesus is really doing a work in my heart about this.” and yet, I don’t really know that Jesus was really doing this radical sin-removal because even though Michael was mad about his sin, he kept noticing the same issues and never really dealt with those issues— I mean, he refused to even admit what they were to me in specific terms. In hindsight I know that this is because he was so ashamed of them. SGM’s intense sin-prying by other members is so degrading. Michael noticed his sin all of the time because he worried other people could see those things in him and were looking down on him for those issues. He felt like he couldn’t admit those sins in an authentic, honest way because it would make him a poor christian, and because once you admit a sin to your care group or accountability partner, you are basically asking them to check up on your ‘issue’ every time they see you. This makes you feel terrible if you haven’t “conquered” or “fought against” your sin by the next time they approach you. This perpetuates immense guilt, fear of the judgment of God and other Christians, and self-hatred.
When Michael and I started dating last summer, I was stunned at the things that came out of our relationship. Right away, he felt GUILTY that we were dating. In the evenings when we would hang out, he would have a wonderful time and it was fun and care-free, but by the next day he couldn’t even look at me and would tell me that he wasn’t sure we should be together after all. He felt guilty because he hadn’t consulted his care group leader or his accountability partners before asking me to date him, and I was not from his “Church” (which he always referred to as a proper noun.. as if it was THE Church of God).
This guilt became a cornerstone in our 7 month relationship.
Another thing that made it hard for us to date was the struggle to know what “dating” even looked like in a God-honoring way. Because SGM is SO strict about male-female relationships (friendships included), he was not even used to hugging girls casually, much less trying to figure out appropriate intimacy while also maintaining purity. SGM’s stance that everything physical, like kissing and so on, is sinful before marriage is grossly unrealistic and unhealthy for young adults. That should be a personal decision based on the individuals’ experiences and convictions. Michael couldn’t admit to his friends that we had any sort of physical relationship and that we were not courting and were not looking to immediately get married within the year. Michael was left to struggle on his own because no SGM member would offer dating advice, only courting advice, so from the beginning he was cut off from getting honest accountability and guidance from his closest friends and mentors.
This led his 23 year old heart into a downward spiral of lust. I believe that lust is something that SGM men must struggle relentlessly with because women are absurdly objectified in their churches. Websites created by SGM leadership like the girltalk blog and CJ’s blog that discuss modesty in such strict detail… it turns women into pieces of sex-meat that must be shielded. One CJ blog post (and another by his daughter before she got married) told women that they needed to wear “modest wedding dresses so men didn’t think of you sexually when you walked down the aisle.” His daughter wrote in hers that she passed up lots of beautiful dresses because she would rather compromise being physically attractive on her wedding day than cause her male guests to sin. Something is sickly wrong when women have to worry about their Christian guests thinking about them sexually as they walk down the aisle to their future husband… I think the majority of non-Christian men would agree that the wedding chapel isn’t really a hotbed for inappropriate thoughts… most men would just be excited to see their friends joined together in marriage. If SGM men are struggling that profoundly with lust… they need to seek professional counseling.
One day I was reading these sites, trying to figure out a good medium between what I had learned “modesty” to mean, and what Michael’s church thought about gender roles and femininity. I was horrified to find a website linked on one of the elder’s/pastor’s blogs. It was a huge survey/chart of all the things women could ever wear/ways they could act/swimsuits types/shorts’ lengths/types of underwear, etc. and then they polled tons of SGM boys and men concerning how many of them fall into sin when seeing a women doing X,Y,Z or dressed in X,Y,Z. The results said it all. According to this survey, over 50% of these men struggled with lust when they saw a woman stretching. Another 50% struggled with sin when they saw a woman lying down on a floor. And don’t even ask how many struggled just by seeing a girl in a V-neck shirt.
I felt so violated just knowing that so many of Michael’s friends probably saw me only as a temptation to be shielded from, and not as a valuable, spirit-filled human being. I think that the SGM system tries to protect men from the lust of the eyes, but by shielding them so intensely and intimidatingly, they instead just cause men to hyper-inflate women as “forbidden fruit.” Add no kissing and no alone time even with your significant other, and you have a recipe for alot of lust issues… not to mention falling into struggles with things like internet pornography.
Another red flag, Michael was being manipulated by church leaders to work for the “Church” with unfair pay. The intern system is set up with alot of SGM churches like this:
college students/graduates/young adults are considered to be college ministry interns. Each year there are about 10 of them. It is a huge honor to be accepted/asked to participate in this, and it is seen as a large leadership/spiritual mentoring opportunity for these kids, which is great. But, they must commit to working for two years as interns, and they must raise their own support. If they do not raise enough support by the start of the internship, they still must work, but they do not get paid anything until they get enough money in their funds.
If someone who has committed to supporting them drops out during the year because of personal economic reasons, the “Church” does not compensate until they can find another supporter… instead, you don’t get paid your full salary even if you need it for rent/food/clothes/money to do stuff with the people to whom you are “reaching out.” This was Michael’s situation. He committed to the internship, thinking that they would help him with the support raising process, excited to serve his friends, but was under the impression that he would get paid half of the full salary until he could get the rest of the money. Unfortunately, because of the economy, no one would support him with enough money to reach the sum required even after months of sending out letters to people. Michael went for about four months with no pay from the “Church” and then the last three months we dated he was getting paid half the others’ salary. During this time, the “Church” still assigned him full time work and expected him to work 4 days a week in the office and then attend all the college ministry functions on weekends, even while not getting any salary at all.
He did not have the time to get a part-time job or take classes in school to finish his degree. But, he couldn’t say no because then he would be “failing” at the internship with the church, which they “entrusted” to him. and If he failed SGM, he would be failing ALL of his friends, his pastors and mentors, and the Lord. So, Michael drained his bank account, could not even think to come visit me (we dated long distance) and could not pay rent or shoes when he needed them, or buy any groceries other than bread and peanut butter and canned vegetables. It was almost pathetic.
But the “Church” called this “God’s work” so he stuck with it and rarely questioned the manipulation of the ‘Church” and eventually broke up with me because we “had too different of views on what it means to follow Christ” and he was “failing me as a boyfriend because of all of his sin-issues.”
Since breaking it off with me, he has completely isolated himself in his SGM community so that he cannot doubt or re-think ending our relationship. He is currently pursuing to court an SGM girl, and he has no money and cannot pay at all for an apartment next year and will have to live in the basement of someone’s house who attends his SGM church.
Anyway, all of this very long comment to say, this is only the tip of the iceberg for me. There are many things I saw about SGM while dating Michael that are manipulative, destructive, and sad. In turn, members in the depths of their heart must equate this with God being manipulative, demanding, and disappointed when we do not succeed at being fully submissive, always joyful, and sin-free followers of Christ.
I miss Michael as a best friend and a companion, and I wish that he could see that God and I love him for who he is, and he doesn’t have to cut off relationships and beat himself up over his sin all the time to be accepted by God or by a genuine church community.
I guess that’s all I have to say.
Katherine,
Your experience and perspective is very good and hits the nail on the head which is unfortunate for you and Michael. Everything you have communicated is the same concern I have for my friends who are still part of SGM.
Thank you for sharing your story! I will use this in my discussions with some of the leaders and people still in SGM. I could go on and on but I won’t.
Michael has missed an incredible blessing in you and I pray he will see the light before to long!!
God bless!
Irv
Katherine,
Welcome and thank you for sharing. When I read accounts like yours, it makes me frustrated that SGM leaders continue to deny the toxic atmosphere they are creating in some of their churches. I feel sad for Michael. What a depressing, non-New Testament way to live. What good were Christ’s death and resurrection if they don’t get us past our own sins and focusing on who we are in Him?
I feel sad for you. I’m sorry that Michael has bought into these errors and ended your relationship. He is right about one thing: you do have very different views of what it means to follow Christ. Little comfort, I know.
In light of all the “changes” being discussed in the upper echelons of SGMdom, here is yet another dramatic, current story of spiritual abuse (IMO). How can they deny these things are onging? I truly hope and pray the the latest shift from sin-gazing to a more grace-filled message in some SGM locations is not just a PR reaction, but a real response to serious, damaging error. I pray that Michael and others like him will be liberated from the burden they bear.
Katherine,
Welcome to SGM Refuge. Yours and Michael’s story is excrutiating. I’m so sorry that both of you have experienced the all too familiar fruit of SGM. It’s so terribly tragic. I pray God brings healing to you for all the things you have experienced, especially in regard to the sin sniffing, sin focus of SGM.
You said, “but by the next day he couldn’t even look at me and would tell me that he wasn’t sure we should be together after all.” I can’t tell you how many times I broke up with the man I was seeing because I wasn’t SURE we should be getting married. It was as if I didn’t respect him as an adult and I carried the weight of the responsibility of his heart. This happened 4 years AFTER I left SGM. It took quite some time and a few talks from my mother and the man to convince me that he was a grown up who could take care of himself. My mother also convinced me that the whole point of dating is to find out, NOT to already know. (Clearly she never was a member of the SGM.) Her wisdom helped me to stop causing so much pain to this man, though my intention all along had been to protect him.
You also said, “he was not even used to hugging girls casually”. That is terribly sad. Not to mention unhealthy. I guess the whole, greet each other with a godly hug. (I mean, come on, they label all the rest of their stuff as godly, and the one thing that the bible actually calls godly they avoid?)
thanks for sharing your story Katherine…several years ago I had an encounter w/ a newlywed couple from Covenant Life…I have posted about this a while back, but I will repeat a bit for the sake of what you shared.
I was shocked at the ” lemming like “ behaviour these young folks displayed…they were both fully indoctrinated the the way SGM,CJ and others discipled the youth of this movement…especially in the aproach to marriage… you described many of the strange idiosyncrasies they cater to in respect to relationships between couples, and also a very sexist view of women in general … these are all direct results of who and what CJ has evolved into over the last 35 years…
this young couple (both were 19 years old, and the children of folks that had been a part of the church for a very long time…the parents were there when I was ) they presented a mindless belief and faith in whatever CJ passed down…their relationship w/ Christ was entirely based on the life they lived in Covenant Life…this was probably the most telling and scary aspect of where this “church” is headed to… creating clones that will follow through w/ the regime’s idealogys…and believing that they are actually the “cutting edge” of Gods heart in current times…the “prophets” of what God wants the church to be modeled after…
nothing could be farther from the truth… I am no expert…and I am only sharing my opinion…but if there is a line or boundary between being a part of, or flurting with particapation in a cult… they are right on the edge…very dangerous territory indeed…only God knows the actual point where these change…but whatever, it scares me terribly…these are all people that Christ died for so the they could have eternal fellowship w/ God…
what they have created is an alternative culture that is writing their own laws and rules as to what beliving in God is all about…creating doctrine and then using Gods name as a stamp to require followers to observe and obey…in fear of rejection…and believe me…the rejection is very real and swift.
the story I related took place about 6-7 years ago…I am sure by now, if all has gone according to “the plan”, that the newest generation of this group are starting school…how scary is that…t
Katherine
I would also like welcome you to sgmrefuge. I am sorry to hear your sad story.
I hate to say this, but am surprised that you were able to date as long as long as you were with him being in SGM. The group typically frowns on someone doing this unless they are on a path to marriage (“dating with a purpose” as Harris calls it).
You might find my blog of interest (www.ikdg.wordpress.com). It has been my experience that groups where “kissing dating goodbye” is taught singles avoid relating to those of the opposite sex vs. learning how to properly relate. You will typically see singles in this environment almost “afraid” of these of the opposite sex.
There also is a “one size fits all mentality” that seems to happen with it. That is what might be good for teenagers to do (like the age experience Harris wrote about in his book) might not be proper for more older singles such as college age or older.
It is my theory that when you have an environment that doesn’t allow for healthy relationships between single men and women it will produce the extreme struggles with lust that you indicated SGM single men talk about.
SGM has been promoting some type of “kissing dating goodbye” almost from the beginning of their group. It doesn’t appear that this “alternative” has delivered on what it promised including finding a better match and less divorce then when couples date. What is even sadder is how the leaders of SGM won’t admit the problems that various forms of “kissing dating goodbye” have caused though they are quick to admit the problems they see with dating.
Sorry again to hear about your situation.
Katherine, thank you for sharing, and I too am so sorry you went thru this, and the machinations of men have been so damaging to you and your precious friend Michael. While reading your report my heart was just sinking at how this poor guy is NOT being discipled, pastored or shepherded in the love and peace of our Risen Savior!
We talk about the authoritarian shepherding practiced in SGM, but if only there really was some shepherd-like care offered!
Proves Jesus is our true Shepherd. Thank you and I’m so sorry; you must be truly grieving for your friend.
Katherine,
Thankyou for posting and sharing with us. I am so sad to see,once again, the wheels of sgm religously control the hearts of people into a mold of their own making (instead of scripture). I am thankful you saw and werenot pulled in—and pray for Michaels deliverance.
Your story is so insightful of the “everyday living out” within sgm —very revelatory.
May the Word continue to be a Light for your path and Lamp for the direction of your life—-The Lord bless you in His unfailing love— waters
Katherine,
Welcome,, and thank you for sharing. It must have been difficult. The Lord bless you and keep you as your work your way through “moving on”.
The objectifying of women was something that Jesus abhorred. SGM should learn from Him about how to treat women. Shame, shame, shame on them.
Katherine,
Thanks for sharing your account. You described some of the important by-products of SGM’s sin-sniffing: man-focused fear, shame and inverted pride:
“He felt like he couldn’t admit those sins in an authentic, honest way because it would make him a poor christian, and because once you admit a sin to your care group or accountability partner, you are basically asking them to check up on your ‘issue’ every time they see you. This makes you feel terrible if you haven’t “conquered” or “fought against” your sin by the next time they approach you. This perpetuates immense guilt, fear of the judgment of God and other Christians, and self-hatred.”
Obviously, all this results from an assumption that one is supposed to act “perfectly,” or at least behave at a level of Christian maturity that is beyond the reach of all but the most mature Christians. Instead of experiencing TRUE grace for sinful behavior or just mistakes, what the redeemed saint-in-process receives is judgment from other equally in-process saints. Who’s being fooled, here? No one — but they all continue to play the game, and feel shame in the process because they can’t live up to expectations.
Interesting, though, that the Bible declares only idol-worship will lead to shame (do a word search if you don’t believe me). Following the LORD, we’re instructed and assured, NEVER leads to shame. Here are just 3 of many verses:
“Those who look to him are radiant; their faces are never covered with shame.” – Ps 34:5
“But Israel will be saved by the LORD with an everlasting salvation; you will never be put to shame or disgraced, to ages everlasting.” – Is 45:17
“As it is written: ‘See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame.’ ” -Rom 10:11; Peter says the same thing in 1Pet 2:6.
As far as I’m concerned, any attempt to shame a Christian by focusing on his sin, rather than exhort him toward excellence by reminding him of his victorious position in the risen-and-ascended Jesus Christ (we are “in Christ”!!), is evidence of demonic activity.
Katherine,
I feel so sorry for you, and Michael.
I’ve seen similar *NUMEROUS* times with “SG couples,” and it breaks my heart. It’s so unhealthy and damaging. I feel God is putting a “stop” to the damaging teachings on dating, modesty, etc. through the testimonies of people such as yourself.
The lust issues it’s creating is especially a concern of mine. You can literally see the “battle” going on within the minds of young men being mentored under such warped teachings. The way they “look” at women is unlike any look I’ve ever observed - it’s painful to watch. I come from a large family of “manly men” – brothers, uncles, cousins, etc. – I NEVER saw them struggle with lust issues the way the young men in SGM do.
Keep sharing and praying, Katherine. There’s a reason God allowed you to experience this.
Katherine,
I read that garbage about a woman stretching or wearing a necklace with a pendant. It was sooo extreame here. Seat belts worn between the breast were causing men to sin, and how about the greeters had small stashes of safety pins that they gave out to imodest women who did not abide by C J And little jos hies rules. I’m really happy you could somehow see through this….
GARBAGE…
Oh and where I live we have temps in the 90′s sometimes high 90′s. My 12 year old neice said someone said she could not wear a tank top because her shoulders were immodest
GAG O La …
She is sooooooooooooooooooo beautiful….
Ladies, it’s really easy for us all to laugh at SGM’s focus on men’s lust, and I agree they’ve gone overboard. They’ve confused simple acts of appreciating a woman’s beauty — and men certainly know how to do that — with ungodly thoughts of “sex”. Just as it really is possible for a man to have a platonic relationship with a woman, it’s possible for a man to see a woman’s loveliness and not automatically think of “sex.”
On the other hand, if you’re not a man, you really don’t know what goes on in our heads, and just how easy it is for our thoughts to turn to sex. Even if we’re not thinking about “sex,” there’s a pretty straight line in most guys’ minds between appreciating a woman’s beauty and, uh, “interacting” with that beauty in our thoughts. There’s no big hurdle to jump, there.
Given that 1) nearly every American man has been exposed to pornography by his teen years (I was 8), and 2) our culture is now hyper-sexualized — women have to understand that just about every American man — more than you’d like to think — has to work regularly at keeping his thoughts pure when he’s confronted with skin-tight pants, skin-tight tops, plunging necklines, short-shorts, etc. Actually, Christian men are probably in the minority by even trying not to let their thoughts wander.
In my current non-SGM church (filled with born-again, Spirit-filled people who are passionate toward God), I see godly women between 14 and 45 every Sunday, whose choice of dress requires me to avert my eyes and ask God for help to keep my thoughts on worship, rather than on their physical charms. I submit that my experience is typical, not at all unusual. Women think they’re dressing “attractively,” but believe me — skin-tight jeans and tops are much more than “attractive” to us guys. If you don’t believe me, you’re just not living in the real world.
Guys, will you back me up here?
FYI – take a look at this article, which says in part that “Study after study illustrates that men’s sex drives are not only stronger than women’s, but much more straightforward”:
http://www.webmd.com/sex/featu.....en-compare
KeepinStep,
Awesome post about shame! Thanks for sharing it.
KeepinStep,
If this is the case, what do you do every other hour of the day when you’re not in church? I mean, is it only in church that women dress in a way that is difficult for you?
Keep in Step,
Well, I’m glad I don’t go to Sovereign Grace Ministries anymore, or any other church for that matter..it is one less FEMALE that is causing men to stumble, (because I am a real hottie).
Ok, on a serious note…Keep in Step, you have no idea how this type of lust focused teaching has harmed the body of Christ, and has sent our children hurdling into the world. The control was and is killing our daughters, and making our young men robots. Now in our little neck of the woods, we take it all to extremes reguardless of who gets hurt, and who NEVER will know Gods love under the legalist teachings of Sovereign Grace Ministries…
So keep your head in the muck, and don’t worry, you’ll never win me over….or anyone else who doesn’t dress like Laura Ingals…..
If you’re constantly told ‘don’t think of a black cat’, what do you think of? You think of a black cat. It’s the way the unconscious works. So if you’re constantly thinking to yourself ‘don’t lust, don’t lust‘ you are actually programming yourself to lust, because ‘lust’ is being repeated to your subconscious.
Fortunately, God equipped us to handle the “sex drive” He gave us. We’re not dogs that have to ”hump” everything in sight. (And KeepinStep, BY NO MEANS am I referring to you with that statement.) Sexual attraction is normal and healthy – every feature of the female body is extremely attractive to men – God designed it that way. Sex, like everything else, is a “love your neighbor as you love yourself” thing…for both the man, and the woman.
Unfortunately, perversion affects the original intent.
So men, don’t beat yourself up when you “notice” a woman’s purse strap reveals the fact that she’s well-endowed. God made you that way.
You know if you’ve “crossed the line.”
Katherine,
Thank you so much for writing your story on the blog. I too am so very sorry for your hurt and pain and your experience with Michael. I am amazed at the depth of wisdom you have for one who is young and not in SG. Your discernment concerning the lust is right on. You said, “I believe that lust is something that SGM men must struggle relentlessly with because women are absurdly objectified in their churches. Websites created by SGM leadership like the girltalk blog and CJ’s blog that discuss modesty in such strict detail… it turns women into pieces of sex-meat that must be shielded.” Lust, pornography and abuse have been huge issues within SGM churches and many people have been hurt as well as marriages destroyed. Lust and pornography were huge issues in the teenage boys as well as men when we attended a SG church. The men were encouraged to sit around at accountability meetings and talk about their lust and pornography issues in detail. Guess what??? The pastors did this as well. Add this to the fact that Holy Spirit had been taken out of the equation and you have a sin issue that grows and grows and grows. There is no victory because victory over sin can only be found when you are dependent upon Holy Spirit to (a) convict you of your sin and (2) enable you by His power and strength to put sin to death.
At the SG church that we attended, many words were spoken that made it seem like women were protected, respected and cared for. This was all a facade! Women are not respected and not valued! Where do I think this originates? Right at the top! When I think back to the time when CJ and Carolyn came to our church and gave a marriage seminar based on Song of Solomon, I am amazed that I didn’t run out the door immediately. Two things come to mind as I think about this seminar. ( Because these things were said in the conference in front of a very large number of people, I think it is fine to post it on this blog.) First of all CJ stated that Song of Solomon has nothing to do with Jesus but is a book all about romance and sex. Also I remember him laughing and laughing about bouncing ___________ and how he loves public displays of “affection” such as grabbing Carolyn on the back side at a theme park with their children. I remember thinking, never in my life have I heard any pastor talking about their wife and other women in this way. Why didn’t I run right out the door????
I appreciate the context of your remarks…especially about the seminar etc.
too much empahasis has been made on many SGM,PDI ,CLCC strictly on what CJ & other male leaders believed and taught…Carolyn’s mennonite background was far more of an issue than most people realize…forget right or wrong here…She and her sister Janice were without a doubt the moral background that started all the foundation for what was expected from the group, both in social and homelife situations.
They were from a sect that was not so conservative as most would associate w/ that denomination…I remember jokes made by them about their “black bumper mennonite” relatives…folks that actually painted the chrome bumpers black on their vehicles to maintain a more subdued appearance , not wanting to be gawdy or worldly( I actually painted a car for Roger back in the day…maybe 1975, he was dating Janice then, and I joked if he wanted me to paint the chrome bumpers on his Ford Galaxie…LOL)…you cant make this stuff up…they were supposedly from a branch that was much more modern (their definition, not mine) in the Bradenton Florida area. CJ and Roger came from much more secular backgrounds…non practicing roman catholic and a no church at all divorced family…not one that would promote such detailed to rules and regulations.
However, from the sisters, there was a very hard focus that there that for sure was motivated by a fabricated modesty component.( very similar to standard mennonite doctrine) After reading the posts of the last few days, it seems that the doctrine and teaching from the 70′s and early 80′ directed by Carolyn & Janice grew even larger in their influence. Typically in life, when over emphasis becomes an obsession, opposite tendencies develope. My wife and I was a part of the group from day 1…and we could not believe how huge the movement grew to.
I believe now that this focus and over emphasis they started actually had some very detrimental effects. Focusing so hard on what is a natural “human condition” and trying to control it w/ such militance for sure has had the opposite effect than initially desired…but this is something that that type of doctrine has produced for generations , and is nothing new at all…we attended similar “seminars” back in the day…very contrived and prying into our personal lives…the irony was that the guys doing the teaching were immersed in the “world of Pot” only a few years earlier(me too)…and now that they had bought suits and married extremely conservative women, had the license to drag us all into this extreme quasi-morality that they had to adopt to win the hearts of their wives to be…
I have no problem whatsoever personally with being chaste, modest and walking in morality…this is all something that 100% is a part of following Christ. Also I feel the same , as I am sure you all do is well, that teaching sound principles about all this , falls into the category of sound teaching & doctrine…and is to be wholeheartedly encouraged…but the level they took it to is insane…and so contrived and manipulative.
another interesting correlation is the “shunning” that takes place for members that are excommunicated is so similar to what those sects practice. Also the teachings they engage about divorce and remarriage…are you starting to see the pattern?
all these problems we are talking about here had roots back when…and as I have said in other post’s, understanding their backgrounds really portray the architecture of all they do and believe in….and how bad it affected(affect’s) folks duped into agreeing with & supporting them…
there is a day in the life of every person that is a part of the organization has to either “buy in” , or question and inevitably leave…or as in my case be asked to do so. There is no middle ground…and the closer you become involved in leadership the intensity is magnified severely…and the cover ups and scandals are only the tip of the iceberg.t
I wonder how Jesus handled it in His day? He had a prostitute annointing His feet with her tears. I believe He saw her as a person, not an object, and did not sin in His heart. He didn’t tell her to go change her clothes before coming into His presence. He saw her heart as she dried His feet with her hair. Now, every man at that dinner must have been shocked that the Rabi would let this unclean woman near Him, let alone in the same room.
It is part of our culture to treat women as objects for a man’s pleasure. It’s not going away. Men can put us in burkas but it won’t cure their lusts. Yet, Jesus would be able to speak to a woman in tight jeans, etc. without sinning. Why is that?
Outstanding point Canary… the reason in my mind is because he was more concerned about the womans salvation…and her well being, not that she complied with some sort of set of rules. The transformation in our lives does not take place immediately…but only by walking with Christ…and becoming a friend, servant , worshiper of him…something that is an utmost desire for him.
the religious bent on all this is a peversion of the call of God in our lives. It is an attempted manipulation of God’s grace, with its goal being a subservient member of something man is building…definetely not the Kingdom of God…but thats what they call it…nothing more than a counterfeit 100 dollar bill…a cheap imitation created to trick peolpe into giving something value, that it does not deserve.
also your comment specifically about the burkas is fascinating…that is just another example of making the burden of this aspect of life on women…in a matter of speaking, the SGM movement has created their own version of “burkas”( as have many other denominations)…and consequently also experienced the same perversion as islam…and never really dealing with the core issue…sin nature…the days of “Chattle” are gone forever, something that never reflected Gods true heart anyway…that was 5- 7,000 years ago, we are now invited by God himself to experience freedom from all that.
… and the only way to overcome the lack freedom is to be closer with Christ…not by initiating some sort of set of rules made by man…if those types of methods worked I dont think God would have ever sent his Son here for us. The book of Deuteronomy was basically a rule book to help Israel be seperate…we now are in the age of grace…and invited to have fellowship with God continually…not only by some predetermined time of year or festival…
thanks for those remarks…they are very much an insight…t
Here’s my two-cents worth. I am male and in the last quarter of my life.
I say that because I have mucho experience in the lust arena.
First women attract; men pursue. That is basic world procreation 101. God made it that way, thus not evil, in and of itself.
Secondly, Jesus was 100% man, and when he lived His life, He lived as a man 100% of the time. YES, He was absolutely 100% God the Son also, but He reliquested that when the Word became flesh, incarnated. Philippians 2:6-9 says He emptied Himself: of what? He didn’t live like a mixture of God and man. No, He lived like a man, from birth to death. He didn’t supersize His life by pull up out of difficulties by using His Godness; He emptied those abilities without ending who be really was: the Word became flesh.
How did He live a sinless life? He lived in 100% dependance on the Father:
(John 5:19“Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner. ”
(John 5:30 “I can do nothing on My own initiative. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. ”
We (men) lust because we, at that moment, believe the lie: something good is being withheld from us (Our 1st parents did that). We are living independantly of God at that moment, which is living in the flesh. What does Jesus tell us about that?
(John 15:5) “I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.” When we walk, dependantly, we walk in the Spirit and do not fulfill the lust of the flesh.
Ironically, knowing that isn’t enough. Jesus walked that way. Jesus, while on earth, abided in His Father. Jesus was ALL 100% male, yet without sin. That wasn’t because He was a “superstar” with super hero powers. When He walked this earth, His power came from His Father out through Him. The same for us, male or female. We are jars of clay, with a treasure within, full of grace and truth. When we are abiding and walking in the Spirit, we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh; when we aren’t, well, we all know too well.
The remendy isn’t to try harder; rather, the remedy is to walk (action from HIM inside) living His life from inside of us out by faith. This isn’t a religious experience. It is walking in the way: walking, falling, and getting back up , knowing that there is NO CONDEMNATION, but their is fruit and power in HIM–It is finished!!!!
Sounds aweful preachy. I didn’t mean it to be, just some thoughts from a man living in his last days (maybe years or even decades)
Theodore and G.D., WELL SAID! You have answered the question I asked most profoundly. I knew it in my head, but couldn’t put it into words. I guess it all comes down to less of us and more of Him.
Thank you Theodore and G.D., I agree with Canary! Well said! I am so sad for all those men – young and old who have fallen into this trap of sexual bondage within the walls of SGM. I pray that they come to know the kindness, mercy, grace and love of our Savior Jesus Christ and His resurrection power that leads us to victory over our sin!
thanks for your thoughts GD…I wish we could all get together for a cook out or something…I am sure it would be a fun affair…God loves us so much ! we are so fortunate to be looking at all this from the other side of the glass…
BTW…my avatar makes me look like the guy on that TV show…you know…the one who was looking over the fence…is it just me??…it is kind of a angle on all this…I am looking over a fence of sorts…and super happy to be…t
actually I wanted to say the same to you canary…but our post’s crossed I guess…I am at a bit of a disadvatage here…since I am a male dude guy…of course I will never know the exact ramifacations of what it is like to be a woman in the church…let alone SGM…but I do run everything by my wife of 35 years…and she has given me the nod of approval…
we all have a lot of questions…how in the world could all this stuff happen…from Katherine and (Michael) to Heather& the Grizzly guy and his family…thats a lot of ground to cover!!!. anyone here that has a full appreciation of this will have a spirit of grace for me here…WHY??? I really cant answer that…but I can with full on authority say this…Gods grace and heart will be brought to the surface in all this…our main mission in life is to know our Lord better…and ask him daily how we can help him in his mission…that clears my conscience a whole lot…I am just a person like all of you out there in internet land…some of the stuff we read about here goes beyond words for sure…for me…I am a soul concerned about all the lost sheep out there…and the numbers are staggering !
if any are interested out there…my friends that have had many of the same experiences as we post about take Monday of every week and pray and fast…( we are talking breakfast and lunch) and seek God as to how we can make a difference…I invite all of you to join in…
I can only speak for myself here…but particapating in this has been an incredible experience for myself and my wife…and it is also a way to find a form of closure too for all of us…God has so much more for us…we just need to clear our heads…and believe me fasting is the recipe for that…if you feel led…join us…
I am so grateful for all the encounters I have had here at the refuge site…I emailed Jim about all this…all we need to do now is obey God…and humble ourselves before him…he has a word for each and everyone of us…t
Are you talking about Wilson on “Tool Time”?
Was out and about. Sorry about the long lag-time. Isn’t Abba’s truth refreshing and freeing and liberating and grace-filled and motivating and healing. He woos us with His love and we find ourselves walking in the Way in reciprocity, discovering joy and LIFE in Him.
Theo, love the idea of a cook out, basking in the light of the sun/Son. The trouble is that if our time together turned out good, we would probably want to organize it, build a building and find leaders and establish procedures for operation. That would mess it all up.
Canary, I miss your avatar.
Katherine wrote: “…One CJ blog post (and another by his daughter before she got married) told women that they needed to wear “modest wedding dresses so men didn’t think of you sexually when you walked down the aisle.” His daughter wrote in hers that she passed up lots of beautiful dresses because she would rather compromise being physically attractive on her wedding day than cause her male guests to sin.”
Hmmm. I’m seeing another SGM cottage industry opportunity arising here — “Burkha-Style SGM Approved Dowdy-Looking Wedding Gowns – made to order — one size fits all – guaranteed not to cause male guests to sin.”
Canary said- “Men can put us in burkas but it won’t cure their lusts”
That’s a fact. I left a long, rambling, disjointed comment earlier today, which I deleted. I wish that no one saw it, but if someone subscribes to comments, they received it.
Summary: Men are dogs by nature. By God’s grace, we can overcome. Our problem is not how women dress, it’s our hearts.
CJ’s daughter wrote, “His daughter wrote in hers that she passed up lots of beautiful dresses because she would rather compromise being physically attractive on her wedding day than cause her male guests to sin.”
Who the heck is she inviting to her wedding?! How many of her friends objectify women to the point that they’re going to go to a FRIEND’S/RELATIVES wedding and think about having sex with the bride while she’s walking down the aisle toward her husband? How messed up is that? Maybe she should not reconsider her taste in wedding dresses as much as her taste in friends. I’ve had a lot of friends who are not believers, who do a lot of stuff that SGM would not approve of and not one of them would consider this. (Trust me, these are guys who have no problem talking about their sex lives and thoughts.) Er… unless she chose to go topless. Then I could see how THAT would be her problem.
As I’ve repeated many times, statistically speaking there are a greater number of very religious, very devout people that number among the population of sex offenders than they do among the general population. That’s no coincidence. We are creating these monsters by this kind of stuff.
And if I may add one more thing: I don’t go to weddings and think about the sex life of the couple getting married. EXCEPT when I’ve gone to weddings of Christians who actually draw attention to their sexual activity.
For example: One friend recently married a 40 year old virgin. How do I know this? Because the groom’s brother got up and (I kid you not) ANNOUNCED to us that his brother was a 40 year old virgin and had waited all this time. Worse yet, did he make any such announcement about the bride? Nope. Guess where all of our minds went to. It was excrutiating. And besides, really, I did NOT want to think about this guy’s sex life. At all. Now it’s sort of an image I can’t get out of my head. (If my brain had eyeballs, I’d poke them out.)
This was not the first wedding where someone made reference (via spoken word or symbol) to the sex lives of the couple. Now THAT is immodest and causing your guests to think of these people in inappropriate ways.
I know some people may be thinking, “But we’re celebrating God’s grace in giving someone the ability not to sin.” Really? What about the grace to not be arrogant about it and keep it to yourself? Sorry, as soon as you start opening your mouth and blowing your own horn (or a friend or relative’s horn) about not sinning, you ARE sinning. Pride anyone?
And how many of us have been to weddings where we knew that the first time the couple kissed was at the altar. I really felt like an intruder in those moments. Isn’t the whole point of not kissing ahead of time because you thinki it’s supposed to be something sacred and special? (Not that I think a kiss sacred, but for those who do, this is a complete contradiction.) Watching it happen for the first time? Can someone say, “Painful”?
BTW, Jim, this may be a little sensitive, so go ahead and delete at will. I won’t be offended. But I think it’s time a woman came out and said this. Or more so, that some of my SGM/exSGM brothers heard this.
The whole “men lust more than women” is a generalization. A gross generalization. (Actually, I believe if you go back and do research, you’ll find that most of those statistics about how often men think about sex, their sex drives, etc. can be traced to a study done on male inmates. Exclusively on male inmates. I am not 100% on this, so please do the research yourself if you are interested.) Back to the gross generalization thing. I believe that statement is a gross generalization. And as most generalizations go, they are gross. (See how I did that? Impressed?)
I can’t tell you how many SGM wives I know who want to have sex more than their husbands ever do or ever have. I am talking even about the honeymoon and wedding night on. I can’t tell you how many SGM wives hear this baloney about how men are more sexual creatures than women are, every time sex is talked about in the SGM church and hear about how men are visually driven, how men struggle with lust, etc, etc and the wives think to themselves, “There must be something wrong with me. My husband doesn’t desire me. My husband doesn’t want me as much as I want him. What happened? What’s wrong with me?”
I can’t tell you how many wives I’ve held as they cried painful tears after they’ve been to one more homegroup meeting where the women went off and talked and joked about, “You know how men are. I have to get changed in the closet if I don’t want to have sex.” And all the other wives laugh and nod in agreement, while a few of them do their best to smile, all the while holding back torrents of tears. “What’s so wrong with me? Why does her husband want her and mine doesn’t want me? Men are visually driven but I strip in front of him and he doesn’t notice. Why does my husband not want me like I want him? Why has he never? Am I ugly? Am I fat? Am I boring? Maybe I’m a sexual pervert for wanting him more than he wants me.”
I can’t tell you how many sermons and how many SGM meetings quote some statistic on men’s sexual desires and leave us out, as if we some of us don’t have the same struggles.
Do you think it’s only men who struggle with lust? Only men who have porn addictions? Only men who objectify the others?
There are many women out there who struggle with lust. Big time. Many women, single and married, who have the same sex drive as an 18 year old boy. And let’s face it guys, the actual physical evidence is that often times your sex drive dips down and lessens while ours is still gaining speed. For many women, we plateau once we’ve reached the “top”. Ironically, for many couples this is at the same time yours is plummeting. (This, along with the fact that most women live at least 7 more years than men is a big reason I’m a huge fan of older women/younger men. Just makes sense to me.)
Can I tell you how many women in the church question what is wrong with them because they think about sex a lot? How many of my single friends think there must be something wrong with them, because they struggle with lust and isn’t lust supposed to be a man thing?
NO! No! And no.
We are all individuals before God.
He has created each and every one of us uniquely.
Some of us (men and women) struggle with lust.
Some of us (men and women) don’t.
Some of us (men and women) have been sexually abused (one out of 3 women and one out of 6 men) and often respond to that in one of two ways- heightened sexual awareness or suppression. (There’s seldom a healthy middle ground unless God has done some work.)
There are also men who don’t struggle with lust or don’t have a strong desire for sex and wonder what is wrong with them.
So why, given the pain we all know that gross generalizations can cause, continue to use them? (I do myself, often. Not just you guys.)
Is it because we are looking for answers? Because we are trying to understand the world?
Is it because we want to feel better about ourselves for overcoming a difficulty? Or justify something?
I don’t know.
I do know that when we repeat many of the generalizations mentioned above, we hurt some of the very people I know and love. We cause people to question their own worth. Their own value. Their own godliness or lack thereof.
How about from here on out if we want to talk about this kind of stuff we try not to put genders into boxes and just say, “We struggle with this”, or “Some of us struggle with this” or even, “I struggle with this.”
I figure it couldn’t hurt whereas the other stuff already has hurt. Quite a bit.
Katherine,
I’m sorry that you experienced such a hurtful and confusing mess. Your realization that it represented an aberration in God’s desire for us is certainly evidence of His provision for you. It doesn’t make the experience any easier or less hurtful. A resource that might provide some context for what you were seeing can be found at:
http://www.icsahome.com/infose.....mation.htm
A brief excerpt from this material by Dr. Robert J. Lifton, MD:
Purity and Confession
Two other features of totalism are a demand for purity and a cult of confession. The demand for purity is a call for radical separation of good and evil within the environment and within oneself. Purification is a continuing process, often institutionalized in the cult of confession, which enforces conformity through guilt and shame evoked by mutual criticism and self-criticism in small groups.
Well said, Stunned!
Glad to know I’m not the only woman who struggles. Actually, I’ve always known that women struggle. Thanks for pointing out the “generalizations.”
Amen, Jim!
“By God’s grace, we can overcome. Our problem is not how women dress, it’s our hearts.”
Something I’ve observed with most folks over the years…
Becoming a parent – having your own precious “little” boy or girl – changes your perspective when “looking” at the opposite sex.
Stunned – Great post!!!
Thank you so much for your comments! I too have worked with so many couples through the years with sexual hang ups based on what has been told them and reinforced through “sound doctrine” on how bad men are and how good women are. These abusive doctrines are far from truth and it doesn’t set people free. Both are terrible for both men and women.
The number of men that are not meeting their wives sexual needs is staggering and more prevalent than the religious would believe. From my viewpoint, we have emasculated our men AND our women. If women have a strong sex drive they believe they are tramps, whores or bad girls – if men have strong sex drives they are lustful, despicable and bad.
To reiterate what you have said — there are many men that don’t have strong sex drives so they feel less than man and many of them married to women that are totally frustrated and feel less than a woman. What in the heck have we done to God’s creation in the name of God? It is an abomination. We have given a place for the devil to come into our homes a kill, steal and destroy because of bad or in some cases false teaching (doctrines).
S- You didn’t mention the unmentionable the great sin of sins masturbation. What would these great leaders think if they knew that there are women that actually masturbate and that it isn’t just a male issue?
Thanks again for your openness and honesty — it is refreshing and well needed!!!
Jim – this might be worth a separate blog one of these days!!
One of the more painful SGM weddings I attended came to mind when I read Stunned’s 8:23 post. During the reception, a caregroup leader got up to toast the couple, and toasted, I kid you not, to the great job the groom would do in “leading his wife tonight.”
Tasteless. Out-of-line. Disgusting.
(The marriage ended in disaster.)
Don’t get me started. There are more where that came from.
Stunned
Maybe I shouldn’t say this or they might get ideas. 
Very good post and point. Women have can have similar struggles that Mahaney seems to ignore and only define it as a male problem. I feel sorry for the women in the various situations that you described. It sure doesn’t help when Mahaney makes it out only to be a male issue.
Here is an idea for SGM. One woman I know use to go to a private Christian school. When she was young and growing they would inspect a girl’s skirt height. If the girl’s could kneed and the skirt not touch the floor then it was too short. The girl would then be given an ugly smock to wear for the rest of the day until she could go home and get a longer skirt (they wore uniforms).
Maybe the should have a wardrobe “police” stationed at the church doors and hand these smocks out to women the “police” determine are “immodest.”
Stunned,
GREAT post.
“I can’t tell you how many SGM wives I know who want to have sex more than their husbands ever do or ever have. I am talking even about the honeymoon and wedding night on. I can’t tell you how many SGM wives hear this baloney about how men are more sexual creatures than women are, every time sex is talked about in the SGM church and hear about how men are visually driven, how men struggle with lust, etc, etc and the wives think to themselves, “There must be something wrong with me. My husband doesn’t desire me. My husband doesn’t want me as much as I want him. What happened? What’s wrong with me?” “
Add another to your list. Those women who have to change in the closet don’t know how lucky they are. :/
“During the reception, a caregroup leader got up to toast the couple, and toasted, I kid you not, to the great job the groom would do in “leading his wife tonight.”
OMG, what a insensitive clod.
At CLC I heard similar comments. We live in a highly sexualized culture with television, music, and the internet contributing to the problem of lust for men and women equally.
SGM is trying to be counter-cultural by making these modesty checklists as suggestions, but people come away looking at it as a legalistic list. I remember asking people in my caregroup, “Now that the leader told me that my blouse is immodest, Where does it end? Can I wear sandals?? I know many men who like toes….”
I can’t imagine marrying someone in the SGM framework and trying to work out marital issues with the church trying to pry.
“Who the heck is she inviting to her wedding?! How many of her friends objectify women to the point that they’re going to go to a FRIEND’S/RELATIVES wedding and think about having sex with the bride while she’s walking down the aisle toward her husband? How messed up is that? Maybe she should not reconsider her taste in wedding dresses as much as her taste in friends.”
Stunned,
I tell ya, you’re hitting them out of the ballpark today!! I had similar thoughts when reading these kind of things about “wedding modesty”. I mean…I can see not wearing some sleazy, see through hooker looking outfit, but honestly, most women want to wear either an elegant tasteful sophisticated dress or that “fairytale, princess” dress that she’s always dreamed of. Another example of how the SGM royalty think that they are “all that”.
(…and yes, in case anyone is wondering, sometimes I read comments from the bottom up, which is why my responses are in a reversed order… I’m weird, what can I say..LOL)
Hi Ellie!
“I can’t imagine marrying someone in the SGM framework and trying to work out marital issues with the church trying to pry.”
You know, Amera, it’s interesting to me that the Bible doesn’t go into a lot of “do’s and don’ts” when it comes to the marriage bed. Funny how SGM and ministries like them think they have the answers.
A Kindred Spirit-
The bible doesn’t go into a lot of the “do’s and don’t” when it comes to a lot of things in life which is why SGM is potentially dangerous to people who follow them blindly and take everything they say at face value. It frustrates me that people outside SGM thinks that CJ and friends are pious and a great example of the faith.
Very true, Amera.
One of my weaknesses…
Athletic men. Men playing hard at a sport – sweat and all. (Smart men, not stupid jocks.)
Yes, guys…women are “visual,” too.
Good thing for me that I married a smart, athletic man. And when I saw how great he was with children, as well…ooh la la!!
Stunned
One other thought I have is that unlike C.J. Mahaney regular members have a boss and usually have to earn a living in the corporate world. This means a regular member can decide when he works and sometimes requires more than 8 hour days especially with downsizing and how tough the economy is and involve long commutes. Also, a lot of regular members don’t have people lined up to help them in various ways such as around the house etc. that Mahaney’s position gets him. These regular members may also not have the financial resources and thus have to do things that someone like Mahaney can pay to have done.
Thus Mahaney is in a different world perhaps one could even describe as an upper middle class leaisure world. Thus for situations like this he can only see his perspective and not those of others. He hasn’t walked in other mens shoes.
Hi there, Canary Girl!!
Wow, can I say thank you and you have no idea how badly I needed all the encouragement ya’ll have dropped my way today. Thank you, thank you, thank you. I was sure I would do nothing but ruffle feathers with my two posts. SOOOOOO glad I’m not alone.
A Kindred Spirit, once again, your name rings true!
Your posts really made me smile. I’m glad you found one who fits and likes kids. And PS AKS, I like ‘em dumb.*
Irv, what a relief. I was sure I’d do nothing but alienate the guys around here. Glad that didn’t happen with you. And thanks for being so open about what you’ve seen in the past. It’s SO sad when people feel less about themselves simply because they don’t fit the stereotype. Stereotypes suck. I wish I could wipe away all the pain of our sisters and brothers in regard to this issue. PS. Thank you so much for bringing up masturbation! Or even saying it. For YEARS when I’d hear CJ or Dave Harvey or another one of them up front talking about what a horrible sinner they were and how prideful they were I’d want to yell out, “If you’re going to confess something, let’s hear you talk about masturbation!” I mean, “confessing” that you are prideful only makes you look cooler in the church. And these guys know it. Try confessing something much uglier. Then you’ll start to get my respect. “I’m prideful. Boohoo, isn’t it horrible.” Please. Come back to me when you have something much more painful to confess. We already know you’re prideful. We can tell just looking at you. It’s like CJ “confessing” that he’s bald. Till then stop trying to impress me with your spiritual superiority and “humility”.
nickname, painful. Oh, that’s painful. Ouch. Were you even able to finish your meal after that?
Steve240, don’t give ‘em any ideas! Then again, it’s not like they need ‘em. When I was 19 and fairly new to Covenant Fellowship, I had two women “confront” me after the service. They physically took the jacket I was wearing over my dress and closed it tighter around my neck. I wasn’t showing ANY cleavage, but apparently they still thought there was too much skin below my neck. This was easily a five minute production with them laughing at me so hard they had tears streaming down their faces. Later on, when I got home, I had tears of my own streaming down my face. But they were of a different kind. Looking back, I would wear that outfit again in a second. (That is if we were in the 80’s again.) There wasn’t anything inappropriate about it. But they were “older” women (early 30s) so I respected their opinion and never wore that again ANYWHERE. What a waste. (Of course if you asked these two women about it back then, they would have insisted they were “just loving” me. With love like that…)— Just read your next post. I agree with you. How many men are as exhausted as can be? Or stressed out to the last degree for a long period of time? (Not due to lack of faith or strength or anything but the fact that God has them in that period for His purposes?) How about them? Many of them WANT to have energy and drive and love their wives. But they are just flipping exhausted from trying to figure out how to pay the mortgage/rent that month. How to pay the grocery bills or the Visa bills. How to fix the leaky pipe, take their wives on a date and deal with their teenager/toddler/career/fillintheblank at the same time. How badly they must feel about themselves every time CJ’s brags about his sex drive. (BTW, is it me or does anyone else scratch their head at how CJ Mahaney has become the standard bearer for masculinity? His laugh is screecheir than a 6 year old’s. Isn’t he pretty much the antithesis of masculinity in many ways?)**
Ellie, they were SO lucky, and complaining about it! They had no sympathy from me. Or back then I was very kind, so I tried really hard to feel for them and their “pain” which they were laughing so hard about. While I sat choking back tears for myself and others. Ouch. I can’t imagine these women would have been so insensitive had the BS of “men like sex more than women/men are visual creatures, etc.” hadn’t been taught from the pulpit.
Amera said, “Now that the leader told me that my blouse is immodest, Where does it end? Can I wear sandals?? I know many men who like toes….” Amera, that is priceless and such a good point! Did someone actually say that to you in regard to a blouse? If so, where the heck was their mind? Didn’t they have other things on it? Like loving Jesus and his people? Or what to cook for dinner? Or how to take care of the homeless guy they passed that day? BTW, welcome.
*That was a joke! A complete joke! Sort of.
** The day CJ truly humbles himself and makes restitution for all he has done I will come on here and apologize for that one. Cause then, baby, THAT will take a set of balls for him to do and then he’ll start resembling a man in my estimation. Once he stops hiding behind the skirts of his yes men, gets rid of them, and starts listening to the people. Viva La Revolution! Come Lord Jesus, come.
WooHOO — Stunned, you are on a roll.
Yesterday, my preacher talked about elders/pastors/bishops. And he said, “As your pastor, I’m gonna teach you. I’m gonna preach to you. I’m gonna pray for you and I’m gonna love you. But I’m not gonna get all caught up in your personal business.” Oh, yeah!
Stunned,
I am answering your comment from the Polity forum – I accidentally posted over there when I meant to post here about the Burka thing. Anyway, that must have been awful to have so much unwanted attention, especially as a stranger in a foreign land. Weird that it happened in a country that is supposedly moral.
It is like telling you that you can never have chocolate again. Never. Ever. All you will think about and desire for the rest of the day is chocolate. Rich, creamy, smooth milk chocolate. Ummmm…dark chocolate with orange filling. Cadburys, Lindht, Godiva…by the end of the week you will give in and eat a whole bar.
The Old Law (which said no to a lot of things) could not discipline sin out of the people. The New Law puts His word in our hearts, and changes us from the inside. PDI relied so heavily on accountability, confrontation, confession, sin, sin, sin…how could one think of anything else? What a horrible snare!
Just visiting. I to have visited a Sister site – SGM Survivors during a time when I was engaged to a SGM member. He has moved on now and found a “true SG woman”……
Just interested in why the many friendships I made while engaged – will not have anything to do with me today? I thought I had made lasting “christian” friendships……….. ????
Just puzzled. I believe that the families I encountered are very loving and God fearing people. Just do not understand the whole shunning system just because I’m not a member or soon to be member there any longer. Aren’t we all still the same children of God?
Bruised,
Yes, it is puzzling, and tragic. It is one of the cult-like aspects of SGM. I think a part of it is not intentional, but that SGM consumes all of a members time. This has come up int he past and some have defended it as when you move on from anywhere your life changes, but it seems to be different with SGM. I have friends from all of my life that I keep up with. The ‘brothers and sisters’ from the SGM church which I was a part of for 8 years are not among them. Something is wrong there.
-ww
Oh Bruised,
How terribly crushing. I’m so sorry you have gone through such a horrible time.
I’m glad to know that you have found both these sites so you know you’re not alone in experiencing the shunning. It is puzzling, isn’t it? The same people that seemed so loving, so God fearing, could drop you in a heart beat and seem to barely be concerned about you.
If it helps you, it may be good to remember that there is a difference between seeming to be God fearing and being God fearing. More specifically, there is a huge difference between being God fearing and being sin fearing. One leads you to love God and to love others, while the other leads you to love your system of avoiding sin. Unfortunately, that can include (OK, it almost always includes) having nothing or little to do with people who step outside of your beloved system. Or as those of us who have experienced it call it, “shunning”.
Keep in mind that for many SGMers, in their mind they are not shunning you. It is you who have left them. For some of them, in their minds, it is you who have walked away from fellowship with them. There is a chance many of them miss you (though not to the degree of picking up a phone and calling you). Once in a while your name will be brought up in a group setting and a few of them will genuinely ask, “Has anyone run into Bruised lately? How is she?” They will comment on how they really liked you.
Thing is it is not that they never want to see you again. It is more like, for many of them, they don’t know how to reach out to anyone who is not in SGM. It is like they are somewhat socially (and I don’t use this word lightly, so please, everyone, understand I am using this word in its appropriate way)… they are often somewhat socially retarded, where their social growth has been hampered by their experiences in SGM. Especially if they grew up in SGM, though just as common if they grew up outside the bubble but have been immersed in SGM for any period of time. They probably genuinely liked you, just don’t know how to socialize outside the SGM circle.
I know it sounds bizarre. But that’s the way it is.
It hurts. Deeply. For many of us, we have even had family members turn on us or have no time for us any more. I’m glad this shunning happened to you before you gave your lifetime to this movement. Before you gave many years of married life to them, only to have them turn on you when your marriage, through no fault of your own, failed. Unfortanetly, this has been the experience of some of us. I’m not glad you went through this, only glad you got out before you and your children who had grown up in SGM were shunned after spending half your life there.
I hope coming here reminds you you are not alone.
Stunned
PS. If it’s any comfort, I think you have truly dodged a bullet by not marrying an SGM man. I don’t want to begin to recount many of the horror stories of control, spiritual manipulation, etc involved with a man in that movement. Though I know that it doesn’t feel like it was a good thing to have dodged that bullet. Many blessings. S
Thank you Stunned and Walking Wounded… I had never looked at it through the eyes of the SG members… like it was me who moved on and I’m just not staying within their circle.
I did think about moving to be a part of Sovereign Grace ministries even though my marriage did not pan out…… But I would have had to move a great distance from my family. Then the more and more distant they became to me the more I felt like I needed to stay planted right where I am where family and friends DO LOVE ME………………………
I do still love this man….. I realize that all things are for my good. That it wasn’t the Lord’s will or it would have worked… Just still hurting and wanting to understand.
There were many times during our engagement though that he would ask me to lie to counsel and I refused to do that………….this was a problem. He would then give me the speech that I just couldn’t be submissive and allow him to lead properly. Then my head would be totally messed up? Thinking – no – I can’t allow you to ask me to lie?
He even wanted me to lie about where he asked me to marry him. He said that counsel would not approve of him just asking me on his knee and giving me a ring… It had to be bigger than that – like he took me on top of the mountain – over looking the city – that I didn’t realize the importance of how he asked me. I said – I didn’t care what they thought – it was perfect to me?
I’m sorry for the rambling – I’m just trying to move past this part of my life and it is so hard when you look back – still love the people – but question their character………..
I don’t want to bash them – but I am questioning their “heart of Christ”…………………..
where is their love for ALL PEOPLE? God calls us to be fishermen of men…………to me that means go out looking – seeking – loving others…………………NO MATTER WHAT DENOMINATION they are……………………………………
God won’t ask us in the end “were you a Sovereign Grace member”…. He will ask us
WHAT DID YOU DO WITH MY SON? right?
God won’t ask us in the end “were you a Sovereign Grace member”…. He will ask us
WHAT DID YOU DO WITH MY SON? right?
Bruised, you are so right. Eventually, you might have lost this truth if you had married and entered the confines of sgm. Also, I am appalled at this man asking you to lie so he would look better to leadership. What an unacceptable thing for a Christian man to ask his future wife to do. You have truly dodged a bullet. The hurt will eventually be healed, but a marriage to a lying man pleaser would have been pure agony. You will get through this. It will get better. For now, suck in all that family love. You made a wise choice to stay near them. Hugs.
{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{ Bruised }}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}} <—- hugs
Who was he trying to impress?? Anyone at my old sgm church would’ve thought it was just fine and so sweet that he got on his knee to ask you to marry him. And to ask you to LIE about it?? That is beyond weird.
Yep, you dodged a bullet.
Bruised,
Ellie has been on both blogs for quite a while, though she doesn’t post a lot now. You can bet her hugs are the best ever, and that they are sincere!
Thanks Ellie and Canary….
I don’t want ya’all to think I was without sin either… I did sin in many ways…. Just still a struggle – getting past the hurts and still yet wanting to only see the good that was in my Fiance’……. He did have many good qualities…..so do the people of SGM…………………
But after reading here – it brings back many of the thoughts and concerns I had during the engagement… Especially the whole leadership thing…. and I was always encouraged to read: Biblical womanhood – Modesty – I was given a new book each time I was out there for visits and counsel…………………….funny to look back now and wonder why I wasn’t given scripture to focus on?
Thanks again for your comments…. I know God will help me work through the fact that they will not be in my life any longer…. just taking time to understand the whole of it all.
Bruised,
I’m so sorry you’re suffering so terribly. I wish there was a way to relieve you of your pain or find a way to comfort you. It is so hard to still love someone after the relationship has ended.
I don’t know if this is your first heartbreak or not, but if it is, I just want to tell you that you will get over it some day. I know that that is little comfort. It is agonizing what you’re going through. There is no way my or anyone else’s words can make it all better, but I so wish there was. I wish there was a way to take it all away or at least, give you a respit, to relieve your pain if only temporarily. I will pray for you when I think about you. I will pray for the Lord’s arms to surround you in the night and His strength to take you through the day.
I’m glad you didn’t make the move. Having family and friends around can sometimes help.
To hear that this man who loved you asked you to sin… it makes me so sad for you. You are worth so much more. It doesn’t matter your faults or sins, no one should ever be asked to lie to protect the false pride of anyone.
He would then give me the speech that I just couldn’t be submissive and allow him to lead properly.
Asking you to lie is leading properly? Oh, what a horrible life you would have been walking into. A nightmare without end.
It had to be bigger than that – like he took me on top of the mountain – over looking the city – that I didn’t realize the importance of how he asked me.
WHAT?!?! That is crazy. So he thinks it was so important to tell you to LIE about it, but not important enough for him to actually DO IT? That’s seriously messed up.
I’m sorry for the rambling
You’re not rambling. Trust me.
I don’t want to bash them – but I am questioning their “heart of Christ”…………………..
where is their love for ALL PEOPLE? God calls us to be fishermen of men…………to me that means go out looking – seeking – loving others
I know. It hurts to see that not happening, doesn’t it? An SGM pastor once told a good friend of mine that it was NOT their job to go looking for the one lost sheep, but to protect the 99 from the example of the lost one. What a tragic interpretation of that scripture.
I wish you the best. Please feel free to keep coming back here. It’s a weird, dangerous system and I am guessing you probably don’t have any idea how much your affiliation with it has affected you and your view of Jesus. No condemnation of you meant. It’s just that their system and way of thinking can be so toxic, yet so sweet, that you don’t even know it’s gotten into your veins til you start seeing some of the poisonous fruit of it.
Take good care of yourself,
Stunned
Bruised,
I just read what you wrote to Ellie and Canary (two great women, btw). Please, please, please don’t worry that any of us would ever think you’re without sin. We know you sin. It never crossed anyone’s mind that you didn’t. Though, it does strike me as funny (or all too familiar) that you would even go there. It feels as if the SGM poison (referred to the Kool-Aid on this site), has already started working its magic on you. Focusing you on your sin when others have wronged you. Sometimes it’s a good thing, though really not as healthy as focusing on Christ. Often times, it’s downright dangerous, taking our focus away from those who are out to manipulate us and use us. It’s much easier to get someone to not notice what you’re doing wrong if you can distract them by what they are doing wrong. Especially if the person you are trying to manipulate and control is a very good person. (Which frankly, Bruised, I am suspecting you are.) Ten years ago I would have never made such a statement as it went against my theology. No one was good. All were equally evil. Right? But I’ve come to discover that there ARE people who would purposefully use others and there ARE people who would never do such a thing. I suspect you are quite a bit of the second category, so you have a harder time seeing that someone would ever do it to you. That’s a beautiful thing, in spite of all your other sin.
getting past the hurts and still yet wanting to only see the good that was in my Fiance’…….
Bruised, you never asked my opinion, so I know that means it will probably be about as good as a snowcoat in hades but if there’s a tiny chance this may help I’m willing to look like an insensitve clod by sharing it: Don’t. Do not only see the good in this man. See the truth. See the truth of who he is. See the truth of the man that would give you books instead of Jesus. See the truth of the man who would have you go against your conscience. Against the Holy Spirit. Against your God. See the man who knew all the right things to say but was still willing to be angry at you to not serve his real god: his reputation. See the man who was willing to say, “Lord, Lord” but want you to serve only him. See the man who was (if I’m right) saying he wanted to protect your heart, but tried to lead you into evil and condemnation. See the man who said he loved you, but was willing to leave you heart broken and move on to a more mallable subject, one primed to be his servant instead of the servant of the real king. Please. See the truth. See the full truth. The good and the bad. Allow yourself the truth, instead of some warped view of what someone says love is.
I’m sorry if my words have not helped. I’m sorry if they’ve left you with more pain than when you started. If that is the case, please tell me and I promise not to share another unasked for sentence. But if not, if the words were used by the Holy Spirit to continue His work of healing, then please know, I’m still aware of the pain they may have caused. I’m aware that life for you is especially fragile now. I’m aware things hurt so badly that breathing at times hurts. Please, at least know, you’re not alone. Some of us have never experienced this kind of pain. Some of us have been past it so long that we have forgotten its agony. And some of us just dreamt last week about the one that broke our hearts, and still feel the loss.
You clearly have a good head on your shoulders. God has done a good work in making you. He will keep it up in sustaining you and blessing your with earthly support and love.
I pray His great love on you,
Stunned
Bruised…..welcome….and I’m sorry for your sadness and disappointment.
Even if you can see God’s hand and protection in protecting you from marrying this guy, it is still hard, of course. Bless you. Grieving a loss is hard, no matter what.
I too, am stunned that this guy would try to control you to the point of lies for the sake of his image tho. How awful. And he thought he could pull the “submission” card? Yuck.
You were not married. And his leaders would be sad that he wanted lies – if they believed you over him, that is. Whew! God loves you and has someone who loves HIM (more than men) for you! This is God’s provision for you!
Wow, Stunned…what beautiful words for Bruised!
Bruised, I totally agree. I zeroed in on the same line, “getting past the hurts and still yet wanting to only see the good that was in my Fiance’……”
Ponder the words Stunned has just lovingly shared with you, and if you haven’t read Kris’ latest post on survivors, you should do so. I agree with her that everyone who was formerly involved with SGM should read Van Vonderen’s book, The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse.
I kid you not. I was just watching TV heard these words on a show. (God bless the power of Hulu and the pause button.)
Female character: Who puts an engagement ring inside a cake?
Male character: It’s romantic!
Female character: Oh, please, it’s a chocking hazard. I swear, men act as though there’s some cosmic reward for crazy proposals. What a woman really wants is a man down on one knee, tears in his eyes, ring in his hand.
The first couple of wild proposal stories I heard I thought were so sweet, so moving. (This was in the 80′s.) But after a while it sounded more like the man wanting to outdo his friends or have a story to brag about than it did about the woman and the man’s love for her. Hmmm, now I’m wondering what kind of proposal I’ll want if I ever get one one day. Maybe I’ll be doing it.
Hmmm, now I’m wondering what kind of proposal I’ll want if I ever get one one day. Maybe I’ll be doing it.
Stunned, Ha-Ha! You go for it! You remind me of my daughter who would do just the same thing if she felt led. I love you free spirits. Just make sure you don’t drop a ring in the champagne glass – the guy might be so “stunned” he’ll take a huge swallow. He’ll be looking for that ring in a different place the next morning!
Thank you guys…. I’m certain that my head is still messed up….. I struggle over my sins so greatly – I know I’m covered by grace and yet still feel like I failed. That I didn’t measure up…. I know this is a lie of Satan.
I guess the hardest part is knowing how quickly he moved on to a “true SG woman”….
It does no good to ponder on that thought… I should just focus on the fact that God loved me more than enough to have me right where I am and just trusting in his sovereinty……
Thank you again for your words and truths… I know they truths – just hard to believe I was that stupid – I still do not want to believe that it was all a lie….
But I’m certain many of you have felt exactly what I’m feeling………
Oh, dear precious sister, you are so dear to the Lord.
You said, “I struggle over my sins so greatly – I know I’m covered by grace and yet still feel like I failed. That I didn’t measure up…. I know this is a lie of Satan. ”
My dear sister, I gave up trying not to fail a long time ago. I do fail. All the time. I’m not going to stop. Unless He changes me. Which He is doing. Not as I would like, but as He pleases. I figure it’s His job to complete the work He began in me. As far as I’m concerned, it’s a silly deception to think I can change myself. If I could, then Jesus wouldn’t have needed to come.
It’s not like I couldn’t save myself but I can change myself. Nope. Not gonna happen. Only He can save me and only He can change me. (I’d feel sorry for Him, but He’s bigger than my sin. Besides, I’m too busy feeling sorry for myself most of the time.
)
It sucks that he moved on so quickly. I don’t know what it is, but I feel like I lack that moving on gene. I just don’t get getting over someone you claimed to have loved. Maybe that just means you and I are super loyal people. I do know that it will happen for you one day, though. It really will. Till then it will suck. Big time.
Besides, I don’t believe how he felt about you was all a lie. I am sure he was very attracted to you. Who you are comes through in your few posts. Smart men will feel very lucky to have you in their lives. Stupid ones not so much. And I am guessing he cared for you very deeply. You weren’t stupid. How could you have known that the only thing he probably cared more for was his reputation? It’s not like he was wearing a sign around his neck that said, “My reputation is my idol.” For a Christian who worships their reputation, the LAST thing he’d want to do is reveal that sin. He’d hide it and hide it and hide it. Do you really think you’re supposed to see things people work so hard on covering up? No, you’re not stupid. You just didn’t know better. Maya Angelou says that when you know better, you do better. Now you know better.
And heck, you WERE smart enough not to lie about the engagement. You were smart enough not to submit to evil. You were smart enough to recognize that something was amiss. I’d say you were pretty smart.
Hug yourself today. Pat yourself on the back. Resist the father of lies that come to condemn you and whisper lies to you. “You are evil.” “You are stupid.” Just luxuriate in the love of God. Like taking a bubble bath in grace. Let it surround you. Soak in it. Rest in it. In fact, strive…. only to enter His peace today. Nothing else. Strive to enter His peace. When the father of lies shows up to tell you you’re a failure, tell him, “Yup, that’s why Jesus came to save me. But He calls me His precious little one, His princess, His daughter, the apple of His eye.” Then stop talking to Satan. He’s so not worth our time.
Keep coming back. It seems God has something here for you and at SGM Survivors.
In Christ’s love,
Stunned
Canary, you are so dear! Honestly, I don’t think you know the power you have in your words sometimes. I have been thinking about what you wrote about me and your daughter beingfree spirits since last night. You have no idea the kind of condemnation I feel within myself for being that way. Why can’t I be more like the people who come to homegroup or any group and say just a little or nothing at all? Why am I so different or feel so different? Why do I feel the need to joke sometimes or why do I feel as comfortable at the thought of one day doing a proposal myself? You comparing me to your daughter is an unbelievable compliment, because I could never imagine you insulting your daughter or thinking she’s all that messed up. Thank you, thank you, thank you.
If I ever do go for it, I promise I’ll come here and tell you. And I promise not to drop it into any champagne. (Who wants a sticky ring?!) Besides, your last line put such a vision in my head that I don’t think I’d ever look at rings in champagne the same way. You really made me laugh.
Thank you so much for your encouragement. I will think about it throughout today and remember that God must have known what He was doing when He made me, though the logic evades this tiny head.
Gratefully,
Stunned
As for the guy who hurt Bruised, he sounds like a product of SGM. The matter of saving reputation at all costs is prevalent. It’s taught. The sin sniffing and public humiliation does not lead to repentance and fear of God, but to deception and fear of man.
2 Cor 7:10 For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a repentance without regret, leading to salvation, but the sorrow of the world produces death.
All of the over-correction, IMHO, has led many, especially young people who have been trained by it, to learn to lie. No grace is offered for the truth. Bruised, though it won’t stop the pain and loss you are experiencing, maybe it helps a little to understand where some of the pressure to lie originates. I can say with confidence that God will bless your obedience and allegiance to Him.
2 Cor 7:10 For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a repentance without regret, leading to salvation, but the sorrow of the world produces death.
So true Pilgrim… So true… There were many deceptions. At one point he asked me to just marry him at the court house…. then keep it secret from my children and the church… Then once I moved there we could have a SG wedding amoung the people….
When I would try and talk to counsel (Pastors) in regard to some of our issues – I would more or less get scolded and told that I was the people pleaser and full of pride… Which I’m certain were my sins but we never discussed my fiance’s sin… They would tell me that he was working on that with the men…………………..
I know it does no good for me to repeat the past and yes…. I’m certain that God’s grace is sufficient for all of my sin…. Its my flesh I assume that feels like I didn’t measure up or I wasn’t as good as they thought I should have been. It was definitely obvious that they all felt I was not a “true” member and was an outsider… They tried to help me convert but I never fully sucked in to it all. Several years ago I found SG Survivor’s blog when trying to figure out what and who CJ really was?
Thanks Ladies for your shared hearts and I am sure I will heal eventually. Just frustrates me that I’m still aching over him after almost a year and he moved on within 3 months… Thank you for just letting me vent!
Bruised-
Brutal, just brutal, everything that man put you through…..the whole secret marriage thing, like he’s ashamed of you or something, what the heck is that all about? Really, I can’t even imagine a full grown adult behaving this way…..I’m so sorry you went through this.
I have to agree with Stunned, that the one thing I learned looking back on my own trials with SG, is that I learned that failure was not fatal. In fact, I learned to embrace failure as a normal part of life, just remembering my own children learning to walk and the many times I cheered, hooted, and hugged them as they teetered their way to biped status, is how I think God looks at us as we “fail” our way in to our new legs in Christ….anyway, I hope your day is filled with peace….
mm
music man… I have to clarify…
I dont’ believe he was ashamed of me.. just if we married… it would cover the sin….
At one point we drifted in to sin in our relationship – but I exposed that sin as well….
which after much counsel…. we avoid that particular sin…………….. But I believe he resented the fact that I was honest about it. It caused him to lose his position as a care group leader….. I didn’t expose the sin to cause him pain.. just didn’t want to live a lie.
We both really distorted the word to justify many of our mistakes… guess that is in part why my head is foggy!
It was more like my statements earlier… that we were married now in the eyes of the Lord. If I didn’t follow through with marriage.. It was divorce… That is – until he wanted to be free… LOL
Bruised,
The first few years after leaving, I considered myself a “PDI drop-out”. I just couldn’t meet the bar. Then I realized I was a PDI SURVIVOR! It took a while, but the verse Pilgrim included in his/her post says what I learned. There is also the verse that says it is God’s GOODNESS that leads men/women to repentance. I know that now because the Lord taught me. It wasn’t taught where I once gave my life to the “church”.
Stunned,
What a wonderful encouragement for me to wake up to. Your words are so sweet. What can I say, after spending so many years with robotic minded people, I have come to appreciate the differences that the Lord put into us all. I especially love women who aren’t afraid to be themselves, jokes and all. When you “pop the question”, I must have all the details. There is some great guy out there whom the Lord made for you. He is going to laugh himself silly and think himself so lucky to get a girl who would do her own proposing. It will be a special man. That’s what I tell my daughter.
Bruised-
I understand…..it can be easy to hedge in that situation. I appreciate your honesty….I can understand now,why he would want to do that in his situation.
I’m sorry that your heart still aches, I hope talking about it brings some clarity and healing…
peace-mm
Bruised,
I’m right with ya, Sister. Normally, though I’m the loud mouth, I’m normally the way too innocent one around here. Musicman, brother, how could you not see his wanting a quicky wedding to be anything other than the fact that he wanted to have guilt free sex? And I thought you men were supposed to be all alike.
Bruised, while part of my heart aches when I consider the pain you’re in (I still remember my heart ache all too vividly), I couldn’t help but smile/grin/sorta laugh a bit when I read, “but I exposed that sin as well….” I thought, “Man, I have a feeling he sure didn’t like THAT part!” You were an awesome gift for him. He needs someone that will call him on his bs. I just think God loves you too much to make you get stuck with someone like that.
But then the part where you said, “It caused him to lose his position as a care group leader” stopped me in my tracks. This guy was a caregroup leader and trying to get you to lie? I so pity anyone who was in his group. They are so fortunate that you told the truth. So fortunate. A guy like that isn’t going to stop with abusing his position with his wife. He’ll do the exact same to a group or anyone he has a chance to control. My dear Bruised, you not only dodged a bullet but you have saved your children AND that caregroup. Let’s hope the pastors of his church are smart enough to warn this poor second woman away from him and protect the rest of the church from him. Though I sort of have a feeling they won’t.
That’s the think Stunned….
That is the weird thing about all of it. My Fiance’ would have private counsel with the Pastor… Then he would bring me in to the counsel with the Pastor and Pastor’s wife. By the time I was brought in… It was more of an issue about my sin.. Which is fine………..But it was truly OUR SIN………………
I always felt on the defense and explaining myself which always alway resulted in the fact that I was not submissive and prideful! I will not lie… we did have arguments over the word of God quite often where I would go get the bible – re read it to him and he would get frustrated and tell me that we should not argue over the word and I just needed help with my theology…………….. I do not believe I’m crazy nor ignorant of the word. I always felt like it was used against me to fit whatever he wanted to do………
Thank you for just allowing me to talk it out! I still care for all of them. Probably the only reason I’m on this site… just trying to figure out if it was ME that offended them in some way or if they are just that way. If every one that leaves gets put out to pasture………………so to speak.
Love the honesty here…. Thank you for all of your good words of advise and encouragement. I pray I can return that to you all one day!
I figure its best to be up front and honest.. Little Ms. Bruised was sinful during our relationship which we all know the Lord will bring it back in to the Light.. Which I’m thankful for… It helped bring me to full repentence and a place of not ever wanting to walk in that sin ever again.. Brought much heart ache and the Lord did not bless that relationship…. as we all can see.
Just praying that from this point forward I can be pleasing to the Lord and forgiving of others…. Basically… desiring to heal over the past and still love the SG family from a distance I guess!
Bruised-
The whole getting counsel without you and than confronting you about your sin, is that they probably viewed it as your fault for this sin…..I mean, after all, if you had been an SG girl, none of this would’ve happened……and the fact that you tried to correct a man about his blessed “theology” is just more proof of your worldly ways…..I’m not joking, this is how many of the folks think about these sort of issues.
I knew one family whose teenager had been sent pornographic emails from another leaders teenager– the family of the teenager who had received the emails, reported to the pastors and parents of the teen who sent these, unsolicited images….you know what the outcome was…they (the pastors/ Leaders) said it was the fault of the parents whose kid received the emails, because they weren’t attending church on Sunday and obviously were not looking out for their child…..if they had been more involved in the local church, they claim this wouldn’t have happened …….just unbelievable the lengths these folks will go to to see themselves as holier than others, while claiming such humility and confession of worst sinner status….
anyway, not sure if that helps…..
Ouch… lol
That is totally how I felt. Had I been raised Sovereign Grace.. Born and breed… I would not have led my Fiance’ down the sinners path!
That’s nuts………………………….Okay.. Muzzle me……………………..at least for the day!
One more comment… I know I said muzzle me… lol
but this is making me feel BLESSED! Praising the Lord for unanswered prayers!
Bruised, dear sister, you ARE blessed and so loved by the Lord. He is so in love with you. Just remember, as far as the east is from the west, so far has He removed your sin from you. No more need to think of it. No more need to remember it. Just His love and joy. (Which by the way, you know that verse, “Yet for the joy set before Him, He endured the cross.” You know what I’ve always thought that joy probably was? Are you ready? I bet that joy was US. I bet He loves us so much that getting to spend eternity with us is JOYFUL to Him. That He was willing to be pressed through that screen of suffering and to come out of it all messed up because, I think, on the other side of that screen, He saw US. US. Just think. What sweetness. What joy.)
So glad you are feeling blessed by being here. Thank you for sharing your story with us. There is such healing in knowing you are not alone. And in knowing it was not YOU that caused all this craziness. (Though a part of me thinks you seem to think you brought this on yourself by your sin. You haven’t. This break up was going to happen because God was protecting you. Because He loves you. NOT because you guys did what you did. There are millions of happy, God fearing couples that had sex before their marriage and God blessed their marriage like crazy. And many, many who did not have sex before their marriage and are now divorced. No rhyme. No reason.)
In Him,
Stunned
Stunned,
You are right… I do feel that I’m reaping the consequences of my sin…… I do. I layed myself at the Altar so to speak after my break up last June…. I thought if I sought God with my WHOLE HEART – Had faith for restoration – that he would soften my Fiance’s heart and he would reconcile….. I know we can’t bargain with the Lord…. But – I do believe that this time with God was so needed for my repentence of past sins. I had repented and stopped the sin long ago but still let past things hover over me and knew that had I been more submissive – allow him to lead – that things would have worked. BUT I WOULD HAVE EVENTUALLY CRACKED………….I always felt like I was pretending to be the ‘perfect SG model”….. stupid, huh?
I still want to believe he is a God fearing man… and then when I re-read the things I write? GOSH… I think… what did you not see girl?
I’m glad that I came here… it does help to sort out all the mess upstairs in the ole noggin….lol
I’m glad that I came here… it does help to sort out all the mess upstairs in the ole noggin….lol
Bruised, we are glad you came here, too. It really helps to work things out in your mind when you talk it out with those who understand, or at least try real hard to. Stunned is on a roll – she can probably tell you herself how much this blog has helped her work through stuff. It helped me too! I’m very grateful that we all have this sort of outlet to find help and understanding.
Hey Defender,
My husband had his first bear sighting the other night. The bear was BIG. My husband said he thought there might have been a cat tail hanging out of the bear’s mouth…
Canary,
Yes… it is helping… Thank you!
But also feeling pretty stupid right this moment.
Bruised, I can’t top or really add to all the encouragement from Stunned…. and Stunned, sista, you and me…so much alike! God bless you and use you forver!
Anyway, Bruised, this one idea keeps screaming in my head: you and your fiance’ were seeking 2 different things:
~You were looking for a godly man and marriage, where you could seek the Lord and worship Him together for your whole life together.
~He was looking for a good SGM wife.
I pray this guy fears and loves God but I don’t know. And of course he belongs to the Lord, not men. But it sounds like he’s been brought up to focus on pleasing men and the system more than pleasing God. Or that the two are equal. That is not a given.
I don’t believe in using criticism of one to comfort another but at the same time I was looking for someone to say this, so you could see what that 1* (degree) of separation off of the mark can do, farther down the road. It’s aberrant. And it just looks to me like the two of you were really seeking 2 different goals.
Because little room for the Holy Spirit’s work in a believer’s life is made in SGM it becomes very important to be careful what and with whom you share information. I feel for your ex-fiance. It is such a fine line to walk – wanting to appear open and seeking counsel, but also protecting yourself. Because once you share a sin, it will haunt you for a long time there. They may focus on forgiveness because of the cross, but there is no power to change because we were taught that we are and forever would be the worst of sinners.
We shared things with a leader as we were looking for help, wisdom and prayer. Sadly, we were never allowed to grow past that struggle. We were always viewed thru that lense and “care” and “concern” were shown to me and my extended family over those ‘issues’ for years. It was always brought up again, whenever anything happened in our life.
Thankfully, Bruised, God does not keep accounts and records of our wrongs.
As far as the east is from the west, So far has He removed our transgressions from us. Psalm 103: 12
True and lasting forgiveness can be found in Jesus and power to change can be found thru the Spirit! I’m so thankful that even though we don’t always find that in men, God never changes.
I’m praying that you find healing and hope in Jesus. Healing takes time, but He is ever faithful to give it!
Defender, Stunned, Canary………………………
Thank you…
I don’t want to use criticism either… I pray with all of my heart that my ex is a true and sold out Man of God… That he stumbled yes… I stumbed yes… But that he has repented and will walk with God from this day forward.. .I have prayed over and over that his life be blessed with his new relationship..
I think it hurts to think she will get the opportunity to be courted in a proper manner because she is a SG woman – he will honor her and respect her as a Lady….
That hurts… but other than that………………I just want to heal and get past feeling angry and hurt… this is not good for my walk.. I have to love them as Christ does… no matter what…
Thank you for reminding me of God’s grace and love for me and this helps me to not focus on me but to realize I MUST LOVE OTHERS just as he does me and forgive them and just release it!
Bruised, I think you — and your children – dodged the bullet. Your former fiancee is not likely to treat his new woman — SGM or no — with any more honor and respect than he did you. He’s already proven his lack of character. It will take a significant work of God to change it.
May God help and heal you!
Bruised said, “I pray with all of my heart that my ex is a true and sold out Man of God… That he stumbled yes… I stumbed yes… But that he has repented and will walk with God from this day forward.. .”
You know how you’ll know if he is repentant or not? He will call you and repent. Until then, you are deceiving yourself if you believe he is a true and sold out Man of God. Yes, EVERYONE stumbles. Not everyone repents. And like I said, when/if he repents, he will actually repent, own up to what he did to you, trying to cause you to sin against God and your own convictions. WHEN/IF that happens then you can start telling yourself that he is a man of God. Until then, please be fully honest with yourself about the situation.
I think it hurts to think she will get the opportunity to be courted in a proper manner because she is a SG woman – he will honor her and respect her as a Lady….
Oh darling, that so ain’t gonna happen. Acme is 100% right. He showed you his character. He will end up trying to control and manipulate her as he did you. How he treated you has to do with his character, not yours. (Btw, I went to your link and saw your photo. Girlfriend, you are gorgeous! This poor man missed out.)
I have to love them as Christ does… no matter what…
Part of grief and moving on is feeling anger. How about for now you let God and others love them and you just concentrate on knowing how much God and your family loves you. You’ll get to the “loving others” stage but all it to take years and that’s OK.
Sorry for being such a bossy mom here. You just sound so much like I have in the past and I’d like to be able to prevent you some of the satanic condemnation (masquerading as biblical condemnation) that I had to learn to fight against. It took God so long to teach me to not worry about loving some people because He wanted to take that off my plate for a season so I could heal.
Many hugs,
Stunned
Defended said:
this one idea keeps screaming in my head: you and your fiance’ were seeking 2 different things:
~You were looking for a godly man and marriage, where you could seek the Lord and worship Him together for your whole life together.
~He was looking for a good SGM wife.
AMEN! AMEN!!! AMEN!!!!!!!! So well spoken.
Sweet Canary is right. This blog and SGM Survivors has been a place of healing for me. I can’t explain it other than to say how good it’s been to know it’s not only been me who has experienced these things.
Watching closely, I’m so sorry to hear about what you went through. It’s like at SGM you are stuck in your sin, bathing in it daily. If you are still there, I hope they give you the freedom to grow and not keep taking you back to your sin like people do to a dog who has gone to bathroom on the rug.
Thank you….. It seems like for most of the year I DID LOVE HIM AND ALL THE FRIENDS………… Its just been since Valentines Day……………..I kid you not… Valentines Day… That he sent me an email that said: Just want you to know that I am going to pursue my friend from SG for a courtship. Be blessed………………………………… Then my heart got angry.
I do so want to heal here. I do not want to have any hard feelings. My desire is to please God and be who he is calling me to be. I know that there is no “perfect church” out there. PERIOD…. The church is full of people just like me (sinners)…. that need a perfect Savior.
You are right about one thing…. I went to him and repented of any wrong I had ever done to his heart in December… Flew out there to say it personally to his face and ask for his forgiveness…. He not one time asked me to forgive him of anything…. But thats okay.
You are helping me to realize that just because we repent – doesn’t mean the other person even realizes they have done anything wrong. He just said I do not love you at all – I’m your Brother in Christ and look at it on the bright side – we will spend an eternity together………. My heart heard these words between the lines:
“I don’t want you in this lifetime though…
I really didn’t want the world to know me – goof mistake to put my blog site………..But – nothing is hidden before the Lord and I do still care deeply for those that I became friends with.
I just pray that God will create in me a heart that can love others inspite of their sin or short comings. Just like Canary said – They may actually care for me still – its just how things are… .You are very busy in the SGM – Especially if you are a Pastor or Leader or their wives…. The churches are usually large in number and I realize their members have many personal needs as well.
Helps to just sit down and sort it all out and seperate the truth from what my emotions are telling me…..
Thanks again and I just pray during this healing process that I become one heck of of Proverbs 31 gal through Jesus Christ….
Hugs,
Bruised,
Valentines Day! What a guy. I know it hurts, but reading through your posts, it is just so clear that the Lord worked all things together for good. My wife and I went in for counseling at our SGM church a few times and every time, everything was herfault. The pastor and his wife absolutely slayed her. I would bring up my sin in the issues we had and they would just ignore it and go back to focus on her. There was no benefit and we just stopped going. She saw the total lack of Grace in SgM way before I did. The longer I am out of our SGM church, the more clearly I see how far off course we were.
It hurts me to see you believing that this will be a pure courtship and he is with an SGM woman…like somehow that makes her better or that he will treat her better or the pastors will treat her better. Stunned and acme totally called it – his lack of character is clear. His inability to treat a woman well is clear – Valentines Day…give me a break!
For thus says the Lord GOD, the Holy One of Israel: “In returning and rest you shall be saved; In quietness and confidence shall be your strength.” Isaiah 30: 15
Bruised said:
“Thank you….. It seems like for most of the year I DID LOVE HIM AND ALL THE FRIENDS………… Its just been since Valentines Day……………..I kid you not… Valentines Day… That he sent me an email that said: Just want you to know that I am going to pursue my friend from SG for a courtship. Be blessed………………………………… Then my heart got angry. ”
You mean to tell me that this guy broke up with you and in the same email he was telling you he was going to pursue a courtship with another woman? Am I reading this correctly? If it was then it again doesn’t put him in the best of light.
It was almost as if he started up another relationship before properly ending a relationship with you. Even if he was doing that a better way would have been to let you know he didn’t want to see you any longer vs. bring up the other woman.
No… I’m so sorry.. he broke up months before….. just told me about the pursuit in Feb.
Wow… I need to be more clear… I’m so sorry
That is just when my heart started to struggle with the whole deal.
I believe she was in the picture long before he sent me the email.. But that doesn’t matter at all.
he broke things off two weeks before the wedding as he didn’t have the faith to move forward with me….
Ok …..Valentines Day? That’s just spiteful…..ugggggh…….and 2 weeks before the wedding, well, that sucks…..Bruised, I’m so sorry…..people should not jerk other peoples hearts around like this…..I hope you have a good belly laugh today, despite all you’ve been through and the pain of remembering these things……
peace-mm
Letting you know on Valentine’s Day that he was pursuing another woman?
COLD
He couldn’t have done it the day before or the day after? He had to do it that day? I have a very hard time believing that that was not a calculated blow, meant in part to punish you for not having submitted to him in the past. I know, for whatever reason, you don’t see him as doing anything so evil as that. But unless you or someone were holding a gun to his head, demanding, “Tell her, tell her right now!” he had absolutely no good reason to not have told you the day before or the day after.
Bruised, I don’t remember EVER gasping out loud when I have read anything in my entire life, but I gasped out loud when I read that. And then a moment later I read, “I’m your Brother in Christ and look at it on the bright side – we will spend an eternity together”. Then I heard a second gasp escape my throat. I kid you not.
I can not fathom his insensitivity and arrogance.
This man is beyond unworthy of your affection. And you are worth beyond so much more.
It was no mistake that you came to this site. It is no mistake that a few of us here are able to see the very thing you are not. We are not in the cloud of heartbreak, nor were we clouded by his pretty words and nice actions. But a man must be seen as a whole and not just parts.
And believe it or not, myself, Canary, A Kindred Spirit and a few of the others who have commented are the complete opposite of “looking on the dark side” kind of people. Heck, if we hadn’t been so persistent to see the good in people, we wouldn’t have stuck around SGM as long as we did. So if WE are telling you that you dodged a bullet, you didn’t just dodge a bullet, you dodge an atomic bomb.
I know you were planning a future, a life, an eternity with this man. I’m telling you that your life and your future would have been bleak, full of regret and pain. Anything you lost by losing him could never outweigh what you gained by losing him. Your freedom. Your self respect. And the possibility of finding someone that RESPECTS you, even more than you realize you deserve.
Not sure what happened but I wrote a huge note back.. lost it.. it didn’t post… oh well.
I will pray for his heart… pray he is blessed……..forgive him and ask for forgiveness of my wrongs…
I was just saying that at times I just think he doesn’t think…………ya know…
but regardless of HIM… I have made the resolution to do this: God is good.. All the time… I have to have a heart of Christ.. I’m called to that anyway……
I’m just as sinful as he…………….I do believe I stumbled back here for a purpose… It has so helped me to remind my heart that I am good enough. I am a child of God… I’m his chosen Daughter… Helped to hear that others have been shunned.. That it isn’t anything wrong with JUST ME……………..Thank you for all of your help. I’m so trying to move beyond the pain and find that peace that no matter what happens in our lives God is in complete control of all things and knew I would not marry this man. He knew all along!
So again I’m faced with.. Its not about you “Bruised”…. But its all about Christ and how he can help mold me into his image! I am so sorry if I came on this site bashing my Brothers and Sisters in Christ.. I never want to cause them any hurt or pain in their hearts and I seriously do lift them up to the Lord daily. I pray one day that some realize how those on the outside of the circle have felt when they are shall I say “discarded”…… maybe totally unintentional even………………
Forgive me if I have came across as little Ms. innocent and he was so horrible.. I’m sorry if I’ve done that number… just trying to find that peace about all that went down and it has helped to just talk it out instead of holding it all in and becoming bitter.
For thus says the Lord GOD, the Holy One of Israel: “In returning and rest you shall be saved; In quietness and confidence shall be your strength.” Isaiah 30: 15
Thanks, Walking Wounded, for that verse. Upon reading it, my spirit relaxed and went “Ahhhhhhhhhh….”
Bruised, one thing that stands out to me very clearly – you have a sensitive heart that is beautiful to the Lord. Even in your own distress you worry about whether those who hurt you are all right. Having that kind of love in your heart puts you way ahead of the game! Let Love by your guide (after all – GOD IS LOVE). You will get through this.
Oh Canary – you are so right… GOD IS LOVE……………….I fall so short and yet like Paul in the bible.. I do those things I wish I wouldn-t – and so desire to do the things I should.. ya know?
one day at a time… sufficient are the worries for today – I love the scripture Walking Wounded quoted as well… oh…. in quietness and confidence sahll be our strength…. Great scripture to stand on for the day..
By the way ya’all… HAPPY VALENTINES DAY!
I just need to belly laugh!
Oh my gosh, you gave me a laugh!
Here is a belly laugh for you, Bruised:
An old preacher was dying. He sent a message for his IRS agent and his Lawyer (both church members), to come to his home. When they arrived, they were ushered up to his bedroom. As they entered the room, the preacher held out his hands and motioned for them to sit on each side of the bed. The preacher grasped their hands, sighed contentedly, smiled and stared at the ceiling. For a time, no one said anything. Both the IRS agent and Lawyer were touched and flattered that the old preacher would ask them to be with him during his final moment.
They were also puzzled because the preacher had never given any indication that he particularly liked either one of them.
Finally, the Lawyer asked, “Preacher, why did you ask the two of us to come?”
The old preacher mustered up some strength, then said weakly, “Jesus died between two thieves, and that’s how I want to go, too.”
ROFL!!!!
Hey Bruised! I get the feeling you’re still bashing yourself over having sinned. Don’t forget — it’s gone — forgiven — removed as far as the east from the west. And if you’re somehow thinking that your part in sin was greater than Mr. Wrong’s, well, honey, don’t ever forget – it takes two to tango! Forgive yourself. God’s already done His part. You confessed — He’s been faithful and just to forgive, and cleanse you from all unrighteousness. (Hey, if it had been me, no way would I have confessed it to anyone BUT God. I admire you for being honest.)
“O the bliss of this glorious thought — my sin, not in part, but the whole — was nailed to the cross and I bear it no more — praise the Lord, PRAISE THE LORD, O my soul!”
Much love and GRACE to you, Bruised.
too cute!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
laughter is certainly a good medicine!
Nickname.. AMEN!
Has anyone heard anything from Katherine who more or less opened this subject about 80 or so comments back (April 30)?
Irv,
Thank you for bringing Katherine’s post to my attention: Gosh… Michael so gives me a man to base things I saw in my fiance’…. It was like when he was here visiting (He was almost normal) but when I would go out there and visit… He was almost fearful of me being there – saying something I shouldn’t – I always had to stay at the Pastor’s home and he would come and get me for a date – but had to be cautious of the hours spent together… and we are 45 years old……
This helps me see why he felt like coming here most of the time in the beginning.. And yes.. there were issues of an intimate nature that it was like he focused on more – but now I get it… They are drilled so hard about not being lustful, etc. that it makes them think on it more……
Gosh… how sad.
Bruised -
There are some very fundamental issues that many leaders don’t get. Leaders tend to see the church as a congregation of sinners rather than seeing them as new creations (made perfect and complete in Him) to be equipped for the work of the ministry – taking the gospel and influence of His kingdom to our nation(s).
Instead leaders are spending their time and energies trying to make sinners non-sinners but continue to reinforce their sinful condition Sunday after Sunday. They identify Christians more with their sin and sinful condition than their identity in Christ. Righteousness by faith is replaced by works. So the very freedom with have in Christ has been replaced by another yoke of slavery which Paul spoke strongly against. More time is spent talking about sin and Matt 18 (church discipline) than who we are in Him.
As long as our life in Christ is all about us and not our mission to the world, we will continue to turn our energies on trying to make our old man presentable. Hence the focus is on our sin, image and our reputation rather than our identity as His chosen race, His holy nation, His royal priesthood, His possession – reflecting Christ and His glory in us to the world.
Gal 5:1, Rom 8:1-14 , Matt 24:14, 1 Pet 2:9,10, Eph 1
It grieves me to hear the experiences of the ladies shared Refuge and Survivors. It ought not be this way. From those of us that have contributed to the pain and problem please forgive us.
Blessings!!
Good words, Irv.
–pk
I agree……………Good word.
I want to focus on who I am in CHRIST………………I am a sinner.. black and white.
I NEED JESUS and praise God he chose to be a sacrifice for my sin……….. I Can’t get over being a sinner and never will.
BUT through Christ – he is greater than he that is in the world. His word does not lie and I can trust in him to strengthen me each and every day!
Praying still to be that woman that will reach out to the world instead of reach in to just a few! That is wrong. No matter how you slice it!
Glad to have met ya’all………………..
Leaders tend to see the church as a congregation of sinners rather than seeing them as new creations (made perfect and complete in Him) to be equipped for the work of the ministry – taking the gospel and influence of His kingdom to our nation(s).
Irv, this is so true. It made us so in-grown. I was paralyzed by the constant indwelling sin teachings, coupled with the pride that was so prevalent in my heart because I thought I was in the best church on God’s green earth. Yuck. I was the worst sinner in the most perfect church. Holy cow, it’s amazing that after we left pdi I didn’t need men in white coats to cart me off for a nice “rest”.
Canary,
That is how I have felt this past year.
My fiance’ consistently told me that they were the only church family that we would ever be involved in PERIOD. There was no other.
I would ask him – “what if the Lord calls us somewhere”… He would tell me that God will not call us OUT OF SG………………………………………
Did he have a direct dial in with GOD HIMSELF………….. I would just look at him and say I can’t believe you would flat out say that God can’t do whatever he desires…….
IT IS MORE THE FACT – That no matter what………….. A member of SG will refuse to follow the Lord upon counsel if that counsel tells them its not recommended that they do so.
My fiance at one time felt called to move to where I am. He sought counsel – they informed him that the MAN NEVER EVER MOVES TO WHERE THE WOMAN IS.. Period. She is called to go where he is and become a part of the church family.. .PERIOD..
I don’t know.. Maybe I should hush…………..it all just seems so wacked out!
Bruised, here are some verses to consider. The “saint” verses are just a few examples of how Paul thought of believers. This is how Jesus sees us when we become His followers!
Hebrews 6:1-3
1THEREFORE LET us go on and get past the elementary stage in the teachings and doctrine of Christ (the Messiah), advancing steadily toward the completeness and perfection that belong to spiritual maturity. Let us not again be laying the foundation of repentance and abandonment of dead works (dead formalism) and of the faith [by which you turned] to God,
2With teachings about purifying, the laying on of hands, the resurrection from the dead, and eternal judgment and punishment. [These are all matters of which you should have been fully aware long, long ago.]
3If indeed God permits, we will [now] proceed [to advanced teaching].
Romans 1:7
To [you then] all God’s beloved ones in Rome, called to be saints and designated for a consecrated life: Grace and spiritual blessing and peace be yours from God our Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
Romans 1:6-8 (in Context) Romans 1 (Whole Chapter)
Romans 8:27
And He Who searches the hearts of men knows what is in the mind of the [Holy] Spirit [what His intent is], because the Spirit intercedes and pleads [before God] in behalf of the saints according to and in harmony with God’s will.
Romans 8:26-28 (in Context) Romans 8 (Whole Chapter)
Romans 12:13
Contribute to the needs of God’s people [sharing in the necessities of the saints]; pursue the practice of hospitality.
Romans 12:12-14 (in Context) Romans 12 (Whole Chapter)
Romans 15:25
For the present, however, I am going to Jerusalem to bring aid (relief) for the saints (God’s people there).
Romans 15:24-26 (in Context) Romans 15 (Whole Chapter)
Romans 15:26
For it has been the good pleasure of Macedonia and Achaia to make some contribution for the poor among the saints of Jerusalem.
Romans 15:25-27 (in Context) Romans 15 (Whole Chapter)
Bruised, p.s. – it was all “wacked out”!
Romans 8:27
And He Who searches the hearts of men knows what is in the mind of the [Holy] Spirit [what His intent is], because the Spirit intercedes and pleads [before God] in behalf of the saints according to and in harmony with God’s will.
Amen….
Thank you Canary! Healing begins
Canary -
“”I was the worst sinner in the most perfect church.”"
Your statement is absolutely profound and unfortunately spot on!! I will be thinking about that one for awhile.
I do get the men in white coats — PDI detox while unpleasant was very helpful to bring back the abundant life, liberty and grace in Him. To God be the glory!!
Irv
My fiance’ always quoted that saying:
I’m the worst sinner I know.. while confessing his horrible sin to the caregroup of ” please pray for my pride while driving”.. I get frustrated and sin.
While I’m thinking “Dude – tell them about our fornication”"…………………………….thats what I thought of as SIN……….
I’m sorry for the BLUNTNESS… but good grief.
Irv,
“I was the worst sinner in the most perfect church.” Yeah, it’s been like a mini revelation this morning. No wonder I never felt like I could keep all the plates spinning at once. I was trying to do the impossibe, trying to become someone I could never be by my own strength. Today I walk by faith, in grace, and am closer to the person pdi thought I should be than I ever was while a part of that organization. How’s that for irony?
Bruised,
I had a big laugh at your last comment. Someone here has mentioned before about how easy it is to confess “pride” and feel proud about confessing it. Yet, it is such a general confession, so common for self-righteous believers, that it doesn’t seem too serious anymore. However, for someone to confess to fornication, now that is truly a humbling acknowledgement of a sin. To receive God’s forgiveness takes humility and submission. To actually forget about the sin like God does, well, that takes a true, living revelation of the Lord’s sincere words about your sins being to Him as far from His memory as the east is from the west. His sweet voice will say, “You are forgiven. Go, and sin no more.” I love it.
Amen… and that is the key to
“true repentence”………………….go and sin no more!
I LOVE IT!
Bruised,
I was saddened by the following statement you made:
—–start snip—-
My fiance at one time felt called to move to where I am. He sought counsel – they informed him that the MAN NEVER EVER MOVES TO WHERE THE WOMAN IS.. Period. She is called to go where he is and become a part of the church family.. .PERIOD..
—–end snip—–
I personally went through what may be a similar situation to yours. I courted a girl from El Paso, TX while living in Northern Virginia. As we progressed toward marriage, I began to seek counsel regarding the issue of where to live after the wedding. I was counseled that “leaving and cleaving” (Gen. 2:24) was referring to something that the future husband does. This was one of the reasons (among many, many others) that I felt God call me to stay in VA when the rest of my family moved to FL three months after I was married.
I share this only to say that while I am very sorry for how you had to walk through the situation you walked through, I don’t think the counsel your fiance received would be indicative of the counsel given by SGM elders as a whole, given that fact that I received the exact opposite counsel by elders (and homegroup leaders) of two different SGM churches.
Josh
interesting…. you could very well be right Josh…
His counsel was it was my place to follow him as the Husband and Leader of the family. I
was called to Him – not the other way around.
so it required me to move from family and friends to be with him.
Bruised,
Did he have children and grandchildren in the area where he was living like you have where you are living?
which I do understand by the way…
I do believe the man is the leader of the home………………..I would be his help mate! just clearing that one up!
Josh,
An El Paso girl? I may very well know your wife.
But God could very well have you be his help mate around your kids and not necessarily out east. (I’m guessing he was in the east?)
PS. Very smart of you to be wary of the control thing. Keep trusting your gut. God made you a smart person.
Stunned,
No… I had no one there. I would have moved from my entire family… Dad, Brother, Children and Grandchildren.
around 2700 miles away. Which would have been fine. God does call us to certain thinigs that will be difficult. I guess the point I was making was that we would never be called away from Sovereign Grace.. Period.
He never understood why I had such a difficult time making the quick decision to up root and leave and now I know why.
no.. he is west.
Now you know why he never understood or now you know why God never called you to uproot and leave?
Stunned,
Her name is Rachel, if that helps. I don’t deserve her! As Joe Gibbs would say, “I out-punted my coverage” when I married her.
JP
I do want to add that I’m so thankful there is a safe place for all of us to write, blog, share and begin to heal over certain things… I’m certain that each of us cared deeply for those in the SG church and I still do……… They are God’s children just like each of us.
I stand along side you to lift them up in prayer and to try to the best of my ability to practice 1 Corinthians 13:4-8.
to be patient and kind, not arrogant, with pride, or rude or to act unbecomingly, not insist on my own rights or own way and not be self seeking touchy or reftful or resentful..
All along trying NOT TO TAKE ACCOUNT OF THE EVIL DONE TO ME….. whew… that ones tough on some days… and not rejoice at injustice and unrighteousness or
But rejoice when right and truth prevail. and the last of the scripture speaks about being ever ready to believe the best of every person… I believe they are seeking the same God that each of us are… I just think somewhere along the line things became legalistic and they don’t even see that and Man is getting larger that God…. where the people fear the leaders in a way.. I may be wrong about that assumption. because its just my opinion…
I do believe in my heart that I’m the worst sinner I know – because I know the depths of my own heart… BUT GOD….. God tells us that he is greater! So I must believe that I can be perfected “through him”…… and that I’m forgiven…. I don’t have to keep repeating how horrible my past sin was… I can say” Yes – I did commit that horrible sin” But my God has forgiven me and he remembers it no more!
Hugs,
Canary – Back to” the worst sinner” dilemma.
There was a line in the movie The Princess Bride when Inigo Montoya says to Vizzini after Vizzini kept using the word “Inconceivable” Inigo says to him “I don’t think that word means what you think it means”.
It does seem like there is some competition within SGM as to who is the worst sinner quoting Paul in 1 Tim 1:15 & 16. It seems to have become part of the culture. But i am like Inigo, “I don’t think that word means what they think it means:. Contextually he is expressing that he was first in line needing God’s salvation and mercy for his life. Prōtos Although this adjective can be used as chief but more appropriately meaning foremost or “the most needy” in this passage.
It sounds a bit disingenuous from my perspective to the hearers when people (SGM in this case) regularly use the “worst sinner” expression to define themselves or identify themselves. Paul did not identify himself with his sinfulness but to the contrary, to his identity in Christ and all that he was in Him. That it was no longer himself who lives in the flesh but Christ in him. Gal 2:20 He says that when he sins (does what he doesn’t want to do) it is not him who is sinning but the sin living in him. Rom 7:21
Paul in his wretchedness and deadness states it was Jesus who rescued him from this death that the Spirit of life in Christ set him free from the law of sin and death. To continually identify ourselves in our sin and make that the focus of who we are is not only not truth but seems to be in opposition to the work and life Christ in us.
Because Paul was formerly a blasphemer, persecutor and violent aggressor (and ignorantly in unbelief), he considered himself the first (foremost) in line in need of Christ’s salvation and mercy not that he was continually the worst sinner on the planet. I don’t believe he wasn’t setting in place a ‘worst sinner’ doctrine or posture for all those following behind him.
We sin because of the sin in us but it is no longer the power or identification of the believer. I am wondering why we don’t hear them (SGM in this case) stating they are righteousness of Christ, glorified and set apart for God’s purpose rather than the worst sinners. There are many more scriptures talking about those attributes and blessings in Him than “worst sinners”.
You will know the truth and the truth will make you free!!!
Good grief, why do we have to run everything by those “in charge” to find out what God’s will is for our lives: where we should live and all that stuff. A guy and a gal who are in love should work it out themselves, without a bunch of busy bodies who think that God’s will for others flows through them. Please hold the scripture proff texts!! I know them!
Bruised, it breaks my heart to hear your story. But thank God for sparing you from what I think would have been a lifetime of CRAZINESS. Some of our SG friends had to check with their leaders for practically everything–NUTTY. You excaped–rejoice!!! All that junk comes from the “covering theology” of the 70s that has never been cleansed out of the SGM movement.
Hey Josh –
Thought I would give a perspective on the El Paso thing having lived there for so many years (a bit off the subject line I know). Most of the young people I knew in El Paso were trying to figure out how they are going get out of El Paso.
Seems to me your sweet wife saved you and you saved her
(the way it ought to be) Your testimony might have a bit more weight if she was living in Hawaii 
(Just a little levity folks)
Irv,
Yes, I must say it might have been a more difficult decision had she lived in Hawaii. It should be noted, though, that I “finally heard from the Lord” (according to her dad), and moved her back home to El Paso after staying in VA for 20 months, where we lived for 4 years. It was there that found my favorite food in the entire world: Green Chili smothered burrito’s.
Thank you Lord for Hatch Green Chili’s, and for Si Senor’s Restaurant in Las Cruces, New Mexico. In Jesus name, amen.
JP
Josh -
I hear you on Si Senor’s. We are friends with the owners and occasionally pop into the one in Chandler. We have tried to get them to open a restaurant in Scottsdale but I don’t think it is going to happen.
I didn’t know you were in El Paso for 4 years, your stock just went up with me:) El Paso — best Mexican food in the world and at the best prices.!!
Had to laugh on Rach’s dad? Didn’t know he was still hearing from God:)
Irv
Because Paul was formerly a blasphemer, persecutor and violent aggressor (and ignorantly in unbelief), he considered himself the first (foremost) in line in need of Christ’s salvation and mercy not that he was continually the worst sinner on the planet.
Irv, thanks for the really good insight. I hadn’t seen it that way before.
Did you ever read the story of Faust? He was the guy who sold his soul to the devil to have 20 years of a healthy and rich life. When the debt finally comes due, an angel tells Faust that he can still be forgiven if he repents. There are two different endings to this play. One ending sees Faust repent and receive grace as he is lifted to heaven. The other ending is quite interesting. Faust is so full of shame because of his sin that he does not believe that he can or should be forgiven. Ultimately, the devil gets his soul.
I believe that receiving the Lord’s forgiveness takes great humility. I rejoiced when Faust received forgiveness from probably the worse sin imaginable. I saw the second ending as the same thing that happened to Judas. His great sin of betrayal could have been forgiven, just as Peter’s sin of denial was forgiven. The difference between the two is that Judas lacked the humility that Peter ultimately displayed when he received the Lord’s forgiveness. Judas hung himself. Peter became the rock.
If we walk around focusing too much on our sins, what does that say about our ultimate belief about the finality of what Jesus did on the cross? Many believers say they are forgiven, but still focus so much on their sinful state that I wonder if it isn’t really pride that keeps them ensnared in the same “I am the worst of sinners” confession. We can all have the ability to confess our sins but do we all have the humility to receive forgiveness and never speak of them again? Do we really believe Jesus when He says, “You are forgiven. Go and sin no more”?
I had a heart sin the other night. It was spite towards a sister. I could hardly believe that ugly thing was in my heart. The disgust and grief I felt for myself was awful. I’m telling you, it took a great deal of strength to put my pride aside and receive the Lord’s forgiveness. It was a full receiving of it because, the next morning, I had trouble remembering what I was forgiven for.
I am just beginning to learn how completely spotless I look to God when I stand next to Jesus. In order to stay in that position, I cannot hold on to my grief/ ugly feelings about sins and weaknesses that get exposed to the light during this lifetime. If we as the saints remain so sin-focused, how will we have the strength and ability to preach forgiveness to the unbelieving? I believe that some of the “I am so proud” or the “I’m the worst sinner” confessions are sometimes motivated out of pride. Bruised, your ex is a fine example of that when he confessed to pride but not to fornication or deceit.
Sorry I’m babbling. These are still new thoughts to me right now so I might not have expressed myself well. The revelation is still bubbling up inside of me.
Bruised, did your ex fiance receive counsel from a pastor about you having to move to him, or did he just say that he believed you should “follow the man”? In light of his lack of integrity, he might have been lying, putting the full force of sgm behind what he really wanted you to do. Is this possible?
Josh,
This is going to sound really harsh, but if you wouldn’t mind being patient with me …it won’t be easy but really, I’m just trying to make a point about something that I suspect started out as a cute thing to say and in practice, has become almost a badge of honor or a theology of its own. So please, I’m not trying to be mean, please understand I’m just trying to share what goes through my mind each time I hear a phrase. I know I don’t know you well, but I have the feeling that you are one of those genuinely strong men who can take it. If you’re not, go ahead and skip this next paragraph because, in spite of what it sounds like, I’m not trying to offend but to convey a thought process and maybe challenge some people about what they may often say. Here goes…
If you truly aren’t worthy of her, then why would you marry her and force her to spend a lifetime with a man so unworthy of her? Wouldn’t the most loving thing to do would have been to deny yourself the pleasure of a lifetime with a woman so good and move out of the way so that a man who is truly worthy of her can move in and give her the life she deserves? If that is the case, is this something you should consider repenting of and then moving out of the way so that that man can come in? OR is it simply another one of those vomit worthy SGM phrases that men are supposed to use? Each time I hear it from CJ I wonder why he doesn’t repent of his selfishness of marrying Caroline and go out, find the RIGHT man for her and get them together.
OK, if you’re still reading, thank you for your patience. I know it probably wasn’t easy.
PS. LOVE El Paso. LOVE the people of El Paso even more. (I’d say more but then my identity would be blown.)
Irv said, “To continually identify ourselves in our sin and make that the focus of who we are is not only not truth but seems to be in opposition to the work and life Christ in us.” THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! A- and a- MEN!!!!!!!!!!!! I wish everyone would get this. I so weary of the focus of sin and not Christ.
Canary, Amen, my dear sister (or sistah, ’cause that’s the kinda mood I’m in). That is soooo spot on. I want to agree with God regarding my identity instead of agreeing with CJ regarding his. The cult of sin has got to end. (Btw, you conveyed your thoughts just beautifully. You have a gift of clarity and compassion.)
PS. Irv- best Mexican food in the world? I challenge you with Guadalajara. The BEST. And for 25 cents. Beat that anywhere in El Paso. (OK, maybe Juarez. Love there, too.)
Wait, Irv, I just reread above and realized you lived in El Paso. Brother, YOUR points just went up. (You needed them. Admitting you were a PDI/SGM pastor put you way out of my ballpark of trust. WAY OUT. El Paso brought you almost into the parking lot.
) I also take back that El Paso may not be the BEST Mexican food in the world. If you lived there, you may say anything about it and I will not defend the standing of Guadalajara (or at least of its standing in my head.)
Enjoy the coming summer where ever you are now.
Stunned -
)
Thanks for the kind words, I think! I left PDI 14 years ago and El Paso 18 years ago.
Am I to assume that you lived in El Paso or at least frequented El Paso. Is there a chance that I would know you? I am a terrible guesser!
My wife and I were just in El Paso for a few days. Enough time to eat at Julio’s, La Malinchi, Forti’s, The Riviera and of course Chicos (not technically Mexican but certainly an El Paso cuisine
Haven’t been to Quadalajara but was in Monterrey year before last a couple of times and Juarez last year for a few days and the food was very good. It might be better to rephrase my statement “El Paso has the best Mexican food in the US”. New Mexico is a close second. I wouldn’t want to offend all my good friends in Mexico and probably already have offended my New Mexico friends in Las Cruces and Albuquerque.
Very good post to Josh on the “better than I deserve”. I understand he loves his wife very much and although it may be an SGM colloquialism, I think the intent is to honor her! But, trust me, I get your point and it is well stated! It is similar to the “I am the worst sinner” category.
If you would like to chat off line you can contact me at irv911help@yahoo.com
Thanks for your input and comments on Refuge!!!
Irv
Stunned,
is not something that originated with SGM.
I’m not offended at all with your comments. I was actually quoting Joe Gibbs, Hall of Fame football coach and owner of Joe Gibbs Racing, one of the most successful current NASCAR teams. He uses the phrase “out-punting the coverage” when referring to his wife and his son’s wives, to point out the fact that each of them does not deserve the woman they married. My wife is a wonderful gift from God, a gift that I do not deserve. The thing is, no one deserves for her to be their gift, so that being the case, I might as well be the one that gets her!
I think you’ll find that the “Doctrine of Marrying Up”
JP
Stunned,
If this helps a little, my husband thinks he has “married up”, but I think that way about him as well. Perhaps it is just a heart of gratefullness that makes men say these things about their wives. If some repeat it too often to be sincere, that does not mean all men who use the phrase are insincere. I could say that I married the most intelligent, loving, gentle, manly man and get all goopy on you. I’m just expressing my overwhelming gratefulness for the Lord having brought us together.
I’ll bet man you propose to one day (
) will say he’s “marrying up” as well, dear Stunned!
Canary, you’re too sweet!
Bruised, did your ex fiance receive counsel from a pastor about you having to move to him, or did he just say that he believed you should “follow the man”? In light of his lack of integrity, he might have been lying, putting the full force of sgm behind what he really wanted you to do. Is this possible?
Canary: He received the counsel from his Pastor. I honesty believe he did any way:
But then again……..Did he only ask for counsel on issues that he thought would make him look good? possibly. I don’t believe he sought counsel about he and I in the beginning – because they would have advised against me right from the get go considering I was not from SGM………………..
Good point Canary.. And it caused great sadness to think he was a liar on top of things.
I pray he is not!
I do have to note that I valued his Pastor and Pastors wife greatly. I really benefited from their counsel…
I also believe that in many ways my ex helped me to become a better follower of Christ.
Its just weird how it all affects your heart once you are outside the box. we all still love them – but aren’t a part of them any longer.
Bruised,
It is very possible he was lying to you about the counsel. He was urging you to lie, so he must not see lying as a bad action – that’s alarming. I believe that you have a reason not to trust his word on his having received counsel that the woman must move to where the man lives. If you heard those words from the pastor’s own lips, that would be a different story.
I don’t think you fully realize yet what a major bullet you dodged in not marrying this man. Have hope that the Lord has a better guy out there for you. In the meantime, focus on Jesus, who will meet every need! Big hugs!
I do believe that one thing Canary: Jesus will meet my every need…. praise the Lord…
Aren’t our minds a funny thing.. I am sitting here re-reading things I’ve written and yet still thinking (HONESTLY THINKING) He really isn’t a liar………………Am I stupid? He did lie about things.. But again – sin is sin.. God views them all the same.
I have to view my sin in the same light as I view his……………………
The truth does hurt…….. WOW. Thank you canary for pointing this out to me ONCE AGAIN! I still want to keep believing the best of him. I do know one thing – if he truly begins to seek God with his whole heart – God will pefect him into a great man of God… But I must do the same.
Seek the Lord with all of my heart!
Thank you for standing in the gap and making me look at TRUTHS! His Pastor had told me that I’m called to the Husband and not the other way around. He is the Leader. Which – I can live with that truth – Had he not have been so wishy washy and his mind changed with the wind!
Hugs back and leaning on the Lord just one day at a time!
Bruised,
All sin leads to death. Some sins are just our human faults and weaknesses, which the Lord sanctifies in His own time. Habitual lying, however, is a SYMPTOM that your ex fiance is not walking closely with the Lord. Let’s hope things have changed within him, for the sake of the sgm woman he is dating…oh, I mean…courting.
You are a sweet person, and it is a joy to watch you grow in the grace of God. I’m so, so glad you started posting here!
Thanks Canary!
I pray he leads her in a Godly manner as well!
I’m now “trying” to trust in the Lord that if I’m so lost in him -
A man will have to know him with his complete heart TO FIND ME!
Ya know Canary:
The more I pray on it. My ex fiance’ told me when he broke things off that the reason I can’t submit is because I do not trust God. That was the problem with me and will remain the problem with me.
THAT IS A LIE…………….I trust the Lord with all of my heart.
I just didn’t trust him.
Thank you for helping me walk this out.
Bruised, you so clearly trust God. So clearly. I’m so sorry you had to labour under the lies of this man. That statement that you don’t trust God is one very manipulative men use on very honest, trusting, godly women. I know you don’t see yourself as that, but the truth is, you are a very loving, woman who desires to love her Lord and love His people. The fact that he used a lie about your relationship to God to manipulate you and hurt you as his excuse for breaking up with you, instead of coming out with the truth (“You trust and obey God more than me. I find that unacceptable.”) is tragic for him and grieves the heart of God Himself. You are precious in His sight. I pray that each day He not only carries you through, but reveals more and more how much He lovees you and that you are truly the apple of His eye.
Stunned, Bruised, (”You trust and obey God more than me. I find that unacceptable.”)
Brilliant! And exactly 100% correct!
Bruised, as I read your accounts I think that as the Lord heals and restores you unto HIMSELF you may or may not want to look at the lies and deception that were dished to you with no accountability because you were not local. And, this insult you were given was a judgement that this guy had no conscience about delivering to you! how cruel!
It became amazing to me as we moved on and left the culture of SGM, yet maintaining friendships with people in SgM that they are very free with judgements of people outside of their universe, yet believing it’s wrong within their world. You might not see it yet, but perhaps you will, for the sake of your being able to sift truth from deception.
All of this is to say GOD is faithful Bruised, and HE LOVES you, very very much.
Stunned, you and your caring for others is a delight to watch and read.
Stunned, you and your caring for others is a delight to watch and read.
Amen to that!
My parents took me to CLC since I was 4. I went to the school from k thru 11nth. I never sipped on the koolaide. I would just detatch myself from what was going on. I faked all the answers in all the groups. I never had an option of a normal life. Don’t brainwash your kids. Let them find what they find. I got expelled and never looked back. I know that parents want their kids to be Christians but atleast give them a choice.
peter,
Welcome. I am so sorry that you didn’t get taught about the real Jesus. You never got to learn who He really is or what His grace means. SGM teaches more about doctrine than the Healer of mens’ souls. If you ever want to know what His real love is like, just keep reading the blog. People here are filled to the brink. God bless.
Peter, there is freedom, grace and “real” out here in the land of Freedom. And there is a universe-breathing God who is more mysterious and magnificent than you can imagine.
He is appalled by rules and laws and the reduction of the redemption of his people into picayune crap and games.
Find him.
Hey Peter –
Thanks for your post!! Don’t let the church or the religious stop you from experiencing the true giver of life, the Lord Jesus. The church is not Jesus. I totally get what you are saying!
You don’t need more teaching or preaching but only need to encounter Jesus the true Shepherd!!
Peter,
It is our job as parents to teach our children right from wrong, it the job of children to choose what they will believe.
God has given everyine, even a four year old child free will. This is a precious gift and the fact that children are beaten and coerced into behavior in God’s name grieves me to the core.
My children that lived through this religious system all have trouble with organized religion while the younger ones that were spared the kool aid have no difficulty being a part of a church or identifying as Christian.
One quick question: How on earth did you realize such things at age 4?
Hi, Peter. Welcome from another CLC refugee. I’m sorry you had to fake answers–I did too and I died a little inside each time. Sometimes I hardly recognize the “me” I tried to be.
Peter,
I do hope you come back and talk with us. Please feel the freedom to ask us anything. You have friends here.
Hi Peter,
That sucks. I’m sorry that you were forced in to a place of having to answer the answers, even if you didn’t believe them. I like what amce said above about feeling like she died a little each time she said it. I hope you can feel like you’re coming back to life one day, if you’re not already.
Stunned
I’ve only posted here a couple of times, but have been reading for over a year. My family did leave our SGM church in February. Someday I may put my story here, but for now, I just wanted to share this song video of Kari Jobe’s “My Beloved” http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3c9oi5xNIpo
The worship team at our new post SGM church sand this during offering this morning, and it really ministered to me. I am starting to know and appreciate our Father’s love for me, and the hope it brings. I hope it encourages others as well.
SueBee -
Good to hear from you. I don’t hit the web sites like I used to but I am glad I checked in and saw your post today. I hope and pray that your transition from SG continues to go well.
Blessings,
Former SG Pastor
SueBee,
Its an interesting factor that so many people who have left sgm,come to a renewed discovery as you shared: “I’m starting to know and appreciate our Fathers’ love for me, and the hope it brings.” — The same for us, too— the security of His love proves greater than any wounds that law-driven pharisees have inflicted.—May the Lord continue to renew you and your family in the strength of His great love.
“To those who are the called, beloved in God the Father, and kept for Jesus Christ: May mercy and peace and love be multiplied to you.” Jude 1: 1-2
SueBee, what a beautiful song. Thank you for sharing it. That’s really what it’s all about now. Intimacy with our Lord through the blood of Jesus. Beautiful.
Greetings,
It has been a while since I left the Md SGM church I attended.
While attending the SGM church I would hear members and leaders refer to another church as a “psycho-babble” church. This church was about 4 miles away – around the corner take a right turn at the big intersection – incase any SGM staff happen to be reading this.
It’s interesting that SGM leadership, so quickly accuses people of making false accusations, when something is directed at SGM, but have no problem pointing the finger at other groups.
After I decided to leave the SGM church – long story- I attended the church they labeled as “psycho-babble”. A good friend encouraged me to attend. That Sunday night I realized something, for the first time a several years, I did not leave a service feeling condemned. I went back for the next several weeks, assuming for sure I would hear “psycho-babble” as this church was accused. However the pastor just preached the Word of God and its application to our daily lives.
Hummm.. perhaps the leadership of my old church needed to confess their sins (false accusations,slander) to my new pastor. Wishful thinking!!
I have noticed over the last several years, the “heavy handed” approach of pastors at different SGM related churches. Over time, I learned that a few of my friends had left their SGM church due to what was felt as “heavy handed” counseling.
I talked with friends who still attend SGM and they said “Young men are naturally more heavy handed then older men.” Hearing this onetime, I would brush it off, but I have now heard it 4 different times.
I wonder if this is a “new approach” to “explain” heavy handed tactics. Has anyone else encountered such ?
You would think that being away for several years, SGMers would give things a rest. But no, the condescending attitude has deep roots. Not too long ago I met one of the people from the SGM church I attended. This person was now a care group leader.
At first he was very kind and smiled. He said, “Hi____ good to see you. “ Now the facial expression beings to change and the voice. “So… how are you really doing?” Odd to put a question that way. “Doing great just got a few items for my trip tomorrow.”
SGMer: “Vacation?”
Me: “No, a mission’s trip. My church is really into missions. I thank God we are able to spread the gospel and help churches in different parts of the world.”
SGMer: “One should not think of themselves more highly than the ought”
Me: “I agree 100%”
SGMer: “You know, scripture shows clearly only Apostles/leaders are to go on mission trips. After all we don’t read of the non-leadership going on mission trips”
I do not know if that was his thing or an official SGM line of thinking.
Me: Thinking “foolish statement, just ignore it”.
SGMer: “So do they teach the bible at your church?”
Now I, realize what he at attempting to do, and it’s not going to work. Tables about to be turned.
Me: “Oh yes, my pastor teaches verse by verse. My pastor says this way a pastor can not avoid the verses that do not fit with his beliefs. I remember when I was at ____ the pastor never taught an entire book of the bible, verse-by-verse. Has he started to do that or ever done that? If not I would encourage you to challenge your pastor to do that. It’s wonderful”
SGMer: “Nice meeting you. Bye”
Something seem never to change
Jay -
Jay,
I’d never be able to think so quickly like that! You were able to “cut ‘em off at the pass”, but you did it in a gracious way!
Way to go!
Ellie,
Thank you for your kind words.
It’s sad to say, but since we finally left the SGM church we attended we finally were able to get complete nights of rest. After about 3 months of being married, my wife told me that she wanted to stop attending this SGM church. She said she was leaving Sundays depressed. I suggested we pray the Lord would give us a clear sign that we need to leave. The next Sunday, one of the leaders wives insulted me for not finding a job and being married. I lost my job the week before I got married. The wise counsel of “elders” was to call off the wedding, or so I was told. Well about 4 weeks later I got a job, Turned out I already had it but the HR dept never called to inform me I had the job, but needed to wait 6-8 weeks more till the official start of the contract.
Of all our friends at SGM only one couple has kept in contact with us – and they informed us last week they are going to leave SGM in the next few weeks. While I was at SGM there was a saying, “Out of sight, out of mind.” We tried to keep in contact with many of our friends there, but they were not interested in us anymore. One of the ladies told my wife, “You all were among us, but certainly not of us”.
Our hearts still break when ever we learn of people being emotionally damaged/abused by leaders at our old SGM church or any other SGM church. We pray they would fine rest and comfort among believers that really care and love people.
Jay -
While I was at SGM there was a saying, “Out of sight, out of mind.”
Isn’t that such a pathetic, loveless way of treating our Brothers and Sisters in Christ? For whom we would have claimed to be One in the Covenant, if (and only if) we worship in the same building, or at the same place? We saw that same behavior and accepted it as a matter of fact in both sgc’s we were in. In fact we saw such a laziness that even our cgl, with offenses or misunderstandings that needed working out would wait until a convenient sunday when both parties happened to be there. The height of laziness. No fear of the Lord. So sad, but so true.
Jay I hope that you and your wife break out in worship to our Lord Jesus Christ as you think of the comment that you “are certainly not of us” !!! God bless you!
Who wants to be “of” that lifestyle?
I talked with friends who still attend SGM and they said “Young men are naturally more heavy handed then older men.” Hearing this onetime, I would brush it off, but I have now heard it 4 different times.
I wonder if this is a “new approach” to “explain” heavy handed tactics. Has anyone else encountered such ?
That’s why most churches don’t let men under a certain age become Senior Pastors. *Cough CJ Cough Josh cough many of the people they have reigning in SGM cough*
Jay, you said, “I do not know if that was his thing or an official SGM line of thinking.”
Yes! Yes! Yes, it has been for many, many years. Taught from the actual pulpit. Now, some might say that they “took it back”. However, they clearly haven’t taught the opposite of what this guy was saying, or this guy wouldn’t have been acting like such an arrogant a$%.
Jay, I admire your self control during the conversation. Here’s some of the running commentary that I would have wanted to say, irrefutably proving that you are more gracious than I:
SGMer: “One should not think of themselves more highly than the ought”
Stunned: Then why do you act like such an arrogant a$%?
SGMer: “You know, scripture shows clearly only Apostles/leaders are to go on mission trips. After all we don’t read of the non-leadership going on mission trips”
Stunned: You’re still acting like an arrogant a$%.
SGMer: “So do they teach the bible at your church?”
Stunned: Yes, in the bible another a$% speaks. But it wasn’t arrogant.
SGMer: “Nice meeting you. Bye”
Stunned: Your shoes are ugly.
Lol….Stunned I heart your last comment!!
Glad to know I’m not the only one that would have that internal conversation.
Internal?? ….Ah… yeah, mine would have just been internal, too.
Just posting to get any further comments!
Hello my ole friends… Just wanted to post that my “heart” is well…… Thanking you for supporting me through my healing period….
Also – Update. My ex fiance did in fact marry a true SG woman…… just like I thought he would.
I’m the story where he told me this Valentines day that he was pursuing a new friendship… yeap… MARRIED….
Thank you for much support and prayers during a very hard time!
Hugs,
Bruised! So good to hear from you. I’ve been wondering how you’re doing. Glad to hear the heart is healing. We’re still here for you as you need.
Jim and Carole,
Again, just want to say thank you to you both for developing and caring for this blog and all these folks! I am thankful that you have someone trustworthy that you can hand the blog over to (PK) and that you both will find great rest and peace! Glad also that you will be around the blog. Your absence would be too much to take at this point!! Love to you both!
Blessings,
Fred
Bruised, thanks for letting us know how you are. That means alot!
Bruised, God bless you!
And honestly it looks like the LORD protected you from a yoke other than His!
Likewise He alone is worthy of your devotion, and praise….. Philippians 4:8-9
Visit anytime……….
~Defended
I do visit…. Just haven’t posted…
I am thankful people have a place to run to and be surrounded by prayer and love…. I was afraid I was walkin in my flesh and just wanting someone to support my “heart hurt”… But I now know it was all part of just healing. Do I still hurt over friendships (I thought) being lost or abandoned… YES… very much so.
Do I pray that my ex has TRULY “sold out to Christ”…… YES.. with all of my heart.
I was the woman in his life that he was trying to lead…. I pray that he leads his wife as Christ leads the church.
Praying for you all as well!
Bruised, like the others, I’m so glad to hear from you and that God has been sustaining and healing you. I remember your story and what you were encountering. I pray that he leads his new wife as Christ leads the church, as well.
For years the SG church in our neck of the woods has frowned upon “marrying outside of SGM.” Very few dare to do so to this day, especially if you want to remain in “good standing.” It’s just so odd. I had never heard of such, other than among the Mormons, Catholics, etc. The “village” mentality is very prevalent.
So very true…. He was under counsel in the beginning for courting me without the Pastor’s knowledge….
Once he decided to call the marriage off….
I was cast out of the group. I asked about joining the church… I was told that it could possibly make a difference in my fiance’s heart if I were a part of SG………
Hurt very deep to think I wasn’t already a part since I was a child of God. I truly believe that as a body… Most of them feel that anyone outside of their organization aren’t TRUE BELIEVERS…………………….
With so many many stories that I’ve read. It saddens my heart to think of all the hurt and confusion this type of belief has caused.
Has anyone read So You Don’t Want to Go to Church Anymore?
http://www.jakecolsen.com/Jakespreads.pdf
“Compelling and intensely personal, SO YOU DON’T WANT TO GO TO CHURCH ANYMORE relates a man’s rebirth from performance-based Christianity to a loving friendship with Christ that affects all he does, thinks, and says. As John tells Jake, ‘There is nothing the Father desires for you more than that you fall squarely in the lap of his love and never move from that place for the rest of your life.’”
Thoughts?
“With so many many stories that I’ve read. It saddens my heart to think of all the hurt and confusion this type of belief has caused.”
Bruised, I could write a book. Seriously. I have never shared on the blogs the stories similar to yours and others that I know about personally. It’s staggering.
The blogs exist because God said “ENOUGH!”
Once you’re away from all the trees, it’s much easier to see the forest. It occurs to me that SGM has become a “holiness” movement. I remember friends from high school who were part of churches that actually had the word “holiness” as part of their name. They weren’t allowed to do anything. No make-up. No dating, no movies, no sleepovers, no parties, no slacks. Skirts down past their knees when the rest of us enjoyed the fleeting moment of having legs worth showing (modestly, if you ask me, or immodestly, if you ask SGM) in mini-skirts. For many of the holiness kids, the joy of following Christ was exchanged for the sorrow of following man-made rules. Many of those rules stemmed from a genuine desire to follow Christ and His example — but without the energizing breath of the Holy Spirit, much of it turned into just another tired old version of keeping Kosher. Can’t let that meat touch the milk. Can’t even wash those dishes in the same sink, because there might be just a tiny smidgen in the water that would contaminate. In SGM, we looked down on those Old Testament ideas, but in reality, we replaced them with our own rules. So, Christian, you jumped through that hoop? Hah. That was too easy. Grace can’t be easy. Let’s see what you do when we raise it, over and over, because salvation can’t be cheap. Nope, but we cheapened it in the process of trying to pay for it over and over again.
I have a friend who just cannot accept a gift. He insists on paying everything back, over and over, ad nauseum– when all we really want to do is bestow a free gift for him to enjoy, no strings attached. We Christians are often just like him. We think that somehow, we can pay Jesus back and buy our own salvation by winning blue ribbons in the dog and pony show. And it’s not enough to get our own blue ribbon — we want to make sure everybody else parades around in the “Best in Show” competition and at least comes in second. That trophy’s gonna go to the prettiest, shiniest, best-looking thing around. If any plain ol’ mutts, worn out huntin’ dawgs, or last year’s losers try to enter the ring, they’ll be greeted with growls and sneers. Because it’s a show ring, not a veterinary hospital.
Yeah, when the church building becomes a place for us to parade our well-behaved kids and our June Cleaver clothing while we jump around celebrating our holiness instead of binding up the wounds of the brokenhearted, showing them that salvation is truly FREE, and running beside each other toward the open arms of Jesus, we’re on the eve of destruction.
Kindred Spirit,
I just wonder and have prayed (oh have I prayed) how many woman spent years… I spent 4 years of my life praying and asking God to help reveal my deep rooted sin in order to be a better “biblical woman” in order to be a part…..
I was told maybe marriage wasn’t for me because I could not submit and I had such a rebellious nature…
How many woman are out there like me? That just don’t speak up?
That continue to fervently pray to God to change their prideful hearts?
I love the Lord…. I know that who I am is quite alright.. That he loves me.. That he created me and yes… I still sin and fall short. BUT that’s why I need Jesus…
and because I have accepted Christ as my Savior… God looks at me and sees his Son!
I pray that their hearts change.. That the leadership changes…
Silent Running — EXCELLENT POST!!!!
Bruised — Unfortunately SGM and much of the church has made being normal a bad or sinful thing. Men and women relationships haven’t changed. There is a natural attraction and drawing that is God created. Love is blind (thank God for that – otherwise there are a lot of men that wouldn’t have the opportunity for marriage) as love covers a multitude of sins (and our flaws). Opposites attract which is normal — why do we let the church try and put us into a mold that is church given not God given.
Bruised, you a normal woman and Jesus made you a free woman not again subject to a yoke of slavery. This may not go down with many but Jesus didn’t call you to be a Biblical woman. He called you that you would be who you are (not what someone else wants you to be) and you are the expression of His glory in the earth.
Mrs Irv died a thousands deaths trying to be what PDI wanted her to be and I didn’t help her as I was part of the regime. After we were out of PDI for a couple of years she started becoming what Jesus wanted her to be and she was happy (and free). I can’t tell you the number of times through the years since we left that people have commented what a different person she is and how free she is.
So Bruised – you are not the problem — nor were you the problem. Your identity is in Christ not the church. You are part of His holy nation, His chosen race, His royal priesthood and His possession– we should not confuse His kingdom with what we view as the church. Be of good cheer my dear!!!
Walking Wounded, Thanks for sharing that link. I downloaded the novel and started to read it and couldn’t put it down until i finished. It expressed my thoughts and struggles for so many years. Reading the responses written to questions after the novel is done were also very helpful. When i left my SGM fellowship last summer i really didn’t ever want to enter a fellowship building again. I was done with all the legalism and foolishness that passes itself off as Christianity. The Lord supernaturally led me to an amazing group of believers who walk out this journey with the passion of Jesus ever before them. Perfect, by no means. All about the Sunday meetings or the institution, not so much. It is very organic. I remember early on one of the pastors saying the church is an organism not an organization and i thought i’d fall out of my chair!!! Anyway thanks for the link, when the time is right i am going to share this novel with some of my friends and family. BTW, my favorite part may have been when John is telling Marvin that even at the Transfiguration when Peter couldn’t think of anything to say he wanted to start a building program, my drink almost departed my mouth through my nose!!! LOL!!!!
Silent Running! Thank you!
I have had similar thoughts but never put it in words so clearly.
My thinking is that while wanting holiness this “holiness movement” as you have called it, is ultimately fixing its eyes on holiness itself…not on Jesus! So ultimately it isn’t really about Jesus at all but instead it’s about some measurement of our character and sinlessness.
Very sad that in theory, the sincere Chrisitan thinks the holiness was supposed to be an offering to God. Yet we know from Scriptures – if we never leave God’s Word – we are supposed to FIX OUR EYES ON JESUS, the Author and Finisher of our faith.
(Hebrews 12:2)
I just made a decision to not join an SGM Church. My only reason for not joining is they appeared to be calvinistic (Capital C) and gospel (little g). I prefer the other way around.
This result of (captial C and little g) seemed to cause some overbaked calvinistic language barriers I had during worship time and with the associate Pastor as well as people from the congregation talking. The Sr. pastor was not as bad. I actually really liked their CORE…. but the language seemed , for lack of a better word…. calvinistically “overbaked”.
The language made the worship somewhat stoically datached (in my opinion) from the words Jesus himself would have used.
John Piper was 2 rows in front me….on his Sabattical at several services I want to at this sovereign grace Church. I saw him enough times to see that this was his Church of choice on Sabbatical.
Spuds
Silent Running, That first paragraph of yours was a DOOZEY! Okay, the whole post was great but especially the first paragraph. So succinct. So terrific. Thank you for coming here and sharing it.
Bruised, raising my hand right here with you, my friend.
Irvy friend, great post, especially this part, “This may not go down with many but Jesus didn’t call you to be a Biblical woman. He called you that you would be who you are (not what someone else wants you to be) and you are the expression of His glory in the earth. ”
Walking Wounded, Azaziah…you guys are really making me curious to read that book.
Kindred, sometimes I wish you would write a book. Expose to the light of day what is hidden in the darkness. If you’re ever ready, I’d be happy to collaborate or be your ghost.
Mrs. Irvy Friend, hooray for the freedom you’ve found! I really hope we get to meet you one of these days. You have GOT to be strong after what you endured and the fact that you kept going to grow into who you were meant to be.
Dear Spuds, thank you for sharing and joining us. Big C, small g, good description. Sad but good. I’m glad you’ll be sparing yourself much of the heartbreak and many of the tragedies most of us here have experienced as a result of becoming part of SGM. Cool pic, too.
PS. Bruised, those were lies. You have anything but a rebellious heart. It doesn’t take long to talk to you to see that. I fear for the poor woman who is stuck for the rest of her life with a man who would tell lies like that to such a sweet woman who clearly desires to obey the Lord (that is you)
Awe… Mr. Irv………Thank you! I do desire to please God and become who HE WANTS ME TO BE.
Walking Wounded: Downloaded and ready to READ!
Stunned:
You gave me a huge “heart smile”….. and tears running down my face! I pray that others can see Christ through me………………….That is my hearts desire! I wish that my ex fiance could have SEEN it as well.
BUT GOD! God knows what is best for his baby girl! When he says NO….. Even when I don’t understand why……………. I know its BEST!
Hugs,
Silent Running,
The focus on holiness rather than on Jesus was one of the reasons we left SGM (then PDI) in 1997. The never ending dig for sin was paralyzing. Who could reach out to others with the Gospel when we were so busy trying to fix all our hidden faults and weaknesses? There was never time, nor was there inclination. Our entire world was wrapped up in trying to please the leadership so that then we would be pleasing to God. Twisted thinking.
Having been around the Fairfax church since its entry into PDI in the early ’80′s, I remember the focus began on becoming a New Testament Church. We had a lot more freedom then. The focus then moved to accountability. There was the “constant change is here to say” mantra. Obedience to leadership was taught more and the practice tightened. Then there was the idea that we should have a “passion for doctrine”, taught by Brent D. The holiness movement then began. We moved into comittment to the local church, which had its own particular agenda – round up those sheep! Get them into their pens! Church plants became a bigger issue but you had to be reminded that you couldn’t go along on a plant just to be the pastor’s best friend (huh?). Over the years, more and more chains were wrapped around the members til they could hardly remember who they once were. Joy was lost. The burden of Christianity became impossible to bear. Why keep living that life when one could never get ahead? Who could actually ever mature in Christ? We were kept in perpetual adolescence, hardly ever allowed to use our gifts (if we even knew what they were!), and watching a select few doing all the work of ministry.
My family and I left shortly after the “Passion for His Presence” celebration in Indiana, PA. During that conference I experienced many manifestations of the Lord’s presence personally. However, the ironic thing is that the Holy Spirt, though evident, was not allowed to move at His will during one of the worship times. CJ actually stepped up on stage and “redirected” the crowd after a sense of grief and soberness came over us from God. CJ decided he didn’t want us going that way. I was shocked.
It was more shocking later to find that leadership from the top down decided to end the “refreshment” that was going on in some of the churches. Lives were being touched and changed. My husband and son were directly effected by the presence of the Lord. When my husband asked our cg leader later on why our Pastor had stopped the move of the Spirit, he was told it was a decision to change direction. From that point on, the sin focus became strangling to the point that I could no longer function in that church. I’d had enough of Christianity if that was all there was to it. Thank Jesus that He led us out, and showed us that there was much more to walking with Him than we had yet to experience. Today, we walk closely at His side through the good times and the bad. I am so grateful that we got out of the controlling church!
Stunned:
You gave me a huge “heart smile”….. and tears running down my face!
Look Stunned! You made someone else cry for a change instead of you being the one to shed the tears. You have such a way with words…:)
One more thing I will never forget: CJ said on stage at one conference that he was “tired of being told I am in the way. I am not afraid to lead.” To my knowledge, those were his exact words because they shocked me enough to stay in my memory. Was he being told he was getting in the Holy Spirit’s way, as I had witnessed? Who was telling him this? He must have been hearing it enough to speak those words on stage to a vast crowd of PDIers. Interesting to ponder…
What does this have to do with “moving on”, since this is the forum we are on? Understanding what happened is vital to going forward and healing from our experiences. Even years later, a memory will surface of my time in PDI and I’ll think, “Oh, THAT’s why that was said.” I can then identify an error that I was taught. It is part of being freed from controlling doctrine!
Spuds,
I witnessed the BIG C and the little G as well… I felt like I had to keep WORKING HARDER TO BECOME A PROPER SG WOMAN!
they talk about the gospel MUCH! They speak of his grace – his love – and how it covers their huge PRIDE issues………………..
but then you are counseled so heavily and all of your choices and decisions MUST LINE UP WITH THE PASTOR OVER YOU! If it doesn’t…. You are right back in the middle of SIN IN YOUR LIFE……………..
Where did grace go? Where did our own discernment go? Does God not speak to each one of us individually through his word and his Holy Spirit? Please do not get me wrong.
I believe in good and Godly counsel – I still seek counsel with my Pastor.
But I also believe we are to seek God with “all of our own heart” and not seek PASTORS WITH ALL OF OUR HEART.. They are not God.
If you read the Bible (Istead of listening to big dogs pontificate excuse the pun) you will discover that the women in the Bible weren’t particularly Biblical in the legalistic PDI/SGM sense of the word.
In fact, I dare anyone to find a group of good Biblical women, if they didn’t exist in the Bible, they sure don’t exist in the present tense.
So, these fellows have women by the short and curlies; set up a pseudobiblical standard of womanhood, establish a doctrine of indwelling sin, set out the sin-sniffing hounds, tell women things like they’ll never find a husband because they’re not submissive enough, and who is surprised that women feel unbiblical, sinful, and eventually clinically depressed.
Sort of makes the contrast between their legalsim and freedom found in Christ obvious.
Love all this sharing— each one bringing an aspect of Gods Truth — and much has been learned from the “battle scars”!
Silent Running — Great descriptions, thankyou. Especially….”but without the energizing Breath of the Holy Spirit much of it turned into just another tired version of keeping Kosher.” —so many man-rules and micro-managing, life in Christ becomes diminished.
Azaziah— I have often thought of the story of the disciples seeing the Glory of Jesus the
Christ on the Mount of Transfiguration. Really is a blaring example — immediately Peter wanted to build a “booth” (monument/church/denomination) upon the most
miraculous of sights ( Matt 17: 2-3 “And He was transfigured before them; and His face shone like the sun, and His garments became as white as light. And BEHOLD, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him.)——–But God STOPPED Peter, James and John in their tracks from erecting a tabernacle/statue/denomination, and said:
“THIS IS MY BELOVED SON, WITH WHOM I AM WELL PLEASED; LISTEN TO HIM!”
We can hear HIM because when we have become ‘born again’ He dwells in our hearts, the Holy Spirit lives in us—and He directs and guides and illuminates Gods Truth.
A denomination or any person which seeks to oust Holy Spirit and control a Christians decisions/actions/behavior, is stepping between the Christian and Gods Beloved Son, Whom we are instructed to listen to.
Keeping Kosher; abiding by laws of manmade denominations; submitting to men who declare they ‘stand in the very stead of God’…..takes the yoke of the law, which
brings about bondage. When Jesus the Christ yielded up His Spirit upon the Cross,
“Behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from TOP to bottom; and the earth shook and the rocks were split.” (Matt 27:50). We are His, no man or other ‘priest/pastor’
is ordained to exclusively advocate on our behalf. — As Defeneded pointed out, we are to
“fix our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Finisher of our faith.” (Heb 12:2). What rest.
Stunned, you are so gifted with expression and words— I wonder—-perhaps there will
someday be a book of stories to be written with your help. The Body of Christ would benefit to see how religous leaven in sgm has infected Gods people and the trail of maulings they discard behind them. And the Good News that Jesus is the same—”yesterday, today, and forever”— He still delivers, redeems, and restores His own!!
The saddest part of anything written on this blog or any other blog is the fact that all of us (I believe) still love the people of Sovereign Grace with all of our hearts….
I’m not angry at any one….. I still love them and they touched my heart in an amazing way!
I do however believe that some of their beliefs are built on man made LEGALISM and bent more towards following after man!
I do pray if anyone from SG follows the blogs written that they can see between the lines. No one is mad or angry at the body of Christ…. But that we all are striving TOWARD THE MARK and RUNNING AFTER CHRIST to let him guide and direct our paths….
Canary— Somehow I missed reading your post at 10:34 — INSIGHTFUL HISTORY OF SGM (cuz you were there — you testify of these events and facts)
Wow—- obvious revealings of the cj/man- control evolvement. Amazing. And Scarey.
Waters, I was hanging around the water cooler in “moderation” for a while. Our women’s care group meeting was doing wonderfully in the mid ’90′s as the Holy Spirit was moving in our midst. We were expressing our hearts to each other, praying, and crying (one old friend said that if women end up crying in the meeting, it was a sign of a good one!). Suddenly, we were no longer to go that direction. We were given sin questions to talk about by Brent D. Everything came under his strict control. Let me tell you, the Holy Spirit was ‘outta there. So tragic.
Canary!
What a sad day………………
The caregroup I’m a part of today….
I share my heart along with the rest of the group…. Golly.
We even chose the subject to study!
Bruised, very cool! I’m so glad you are in a healthy church!
well…. I can say that ya’all helped me to understand it wasn’t all me. Yes.. I have sin in my life…..
BUT….. I will never measure up… PERIOD…. There is only one perfect!
I want to try my best to please him… But I already know that without the cross/ I had no hope of eternal life! No matter how much I would have pleased a Man in church.
Bruised, could you email me at the women’s blog gmail? It is aftersgm@gmail.com . I need to ask you an important question and I’ve lost your email address…duh…I think this dumb bird deleted it.
Canary,
Sure….
its on its way…………
Silent Running,
I don’t know how I missed your post… But Oh My!
Silent Running wrote:
Yeah, when the church building becomes a place for us to parade our well-behaved kids and our June Cleaver clothing while we jump around celebrating our holiness instead of binding up the wounds of the brokenhearted, showing them that salvation is truly FREE, and running beside each other toward the open arms of Jesus, we’re on the eve of destruction.
You are 100% right
Dear Bruised,
IT WASN’T YOU
IT WASN’T YOU
IT WASN’T YOU
Each time the enemy brings condemnation over all this against you, please read the above and keep repeating until the peace of God descends on you like white on rice.
PS. Glad to know you’re feeling so much better! I’m rejoicing!
Then Peter came up to Him and said, Lord, how many times may my brother sin against me and I forgive him and let it go? [As many as] up to seven times? Jesus answered him, I tell you, not up to seven times, but seventy times seven! Matthew 18: 21-22
I’m ready to move forward… I played a part in my hurt… I sinned against my fiance’ as well as him sinning against me… I do not desire to be a perfect Sovereign Grace woman but I so desire to be an amazing Proverbs 31 woman….. This is being perfected in me as I type this post…. BY CHRIST AND CHRIST ALONE!
I will love them and pray that God bring Sovereign Grace into the body of Christ that he desires them to be!
As for me and my house! It is well with my soul…………
Love the many ladies and gents. here that were so loving and caring while I walked through a healing process! Much appreciated!
Bruised,
Bless you my dear. God is healing your heart, and you have encouraged many of us. I’m sure I’m not the first one to think on this scripture when I hear of what God is going in you and for you:
A bruised reed he will not break,
and a smoldering wick he will not snuff out.
In faithfulness he will bring forth justice. - Isa. 42:3
In Grace,
P.D.
I believe that as well Protestant Dame! I DO BELIEVE THAT….
Hi everyone! I haven’t been around these parts in a long while and I’ve missed you guys. Perhaps Ellie and Canary will still remember me from a few years ago? I found this blog in 2007 when the Lord, in His perfect time, decided it was time for me to heal from the festering, deep wounds inflicted by PDI and its associated churches many, many years ago.
I first joined CLC in Maryland, because of my husband who is the brother of Sue Ahn (Che Ahn’s wife for those of you who know him) and quickly became one of C.J.’s biggest fans in 1986. We became leaders-in-training almost right away and I also started working at the PDI office in Gaithersburg in 1988. It’s funny…I’m back here today because someone who used to work with me at PDI contacted me through facebook last week. All of a sudden, I’m contacting all of my former bosses, co-workers, etc. and they’re contacting me! I was truly happy to hear from some of these old friends who were truly wonderful to me. Much of my time at the office, you must understand, was actually one of my best times I had as a young Christian. I never felt I was being spiritually abused and when I would hear of people leaving the PDI churches, I was truly mystified. It wasn’t until I moved to California and became part of my brother-in-law’s church (Che’s church called Abundant Life Covenant Church) that the scales started coming off my eyes.
Someone here (I believe his name is Michael) said he knew Larry, CJ and Che from the really early TAG (Take and Give) days. He also went to ALCC and knew all that happened when they launched their first international church plant in the Philippines (which is where I am originally from by the way). He was spot on when he said that PDI knew nothing of my country’s culutral and spiritual sensitivies and unique heritage and background. Had they done their job of researching and preparing for this delicate missions outreach better, they would have saved thousands of dollars and all the couples that were sent there (including Bill and Margaret who are Larry’s brother-in-law and sister) wouldn’t have experienced so much pain and personal devastation for being branded “failures” by the “PDI family.” (I remember people talking about how it was so sad that only 10 Filipinos remained members of this church in the end–even back then, it was all about the numbers.)
I am totally convinced that all the people who were involved in this church plant truly wanted to bring the Gospel to this ”impoverished Third World country.” I remember being at one of the huge Celebration conferences and Larry asked me to step up and talk to the thousands gathered there from all the PDI churches–just to ask for their support–and an offering ensued wherein we were able to bring in a lot of money. Thousands of dollars continued to pour in and because I worked at the office, I saw all this money being thrown at this ill-fated international venture that was to become one of the most embarassing endeavors PDI ever took part of. I’m not surprised that little is said about it now because when they finally closed down the whole church plant a few years later, it was almost taboo to talk about it. To this day, my heart goes out to Bill and Margaret who are such kind and wonderful people–boy were they ”stoned” for their inability to deliver and perform up to “PDI standards”!
Just yesterday, someone else contacted me from my PDI past through facebook and today, we talked on the phone. For her sake, she must remain anonymous but suffice it to say…she was way up there in visibility. She, like many here in this blog, grew up in a PDI home as a leader’s daughter and I actually baby-sat her and her siblings when she was little. She said I was one of her favorite baby-sitters bec. unlike the others, I didn’t get her in trouble when she disobeyed (which I truly don’t recall her or the other kids ever doing). When others would report her “bad behavior” to her parents, she would be severaly punished–to the point of physical abuse. (This practice, by the way, was not uncommon among PDI families. For those of you who know my story, when my husband and I eventually did have kids, he would use the “rod” on my child’s “bod” to the point where it would constantly break. The last straw came when he was going to punish my daughter with a belt-beating just because she could not go to sleep…she had jet lag since we just got home from vacationing in the Philippines. She was only about 4 years old at the time. I finally stood up to my abusive husband for the first time and would never again let him lay a hand on her–despite what PDI insisted upon. In the end, I eventually left him and left PDI and I haven’t looked back since. My kids thank me all the time for doing this even though I was completely alone and shunned by my old PDI friends as I went through my painful divorce.)
Anyway, going back to this girl I used to baby-sit who is now a young woman, she was completely traumatized by all the abuses of PDI (understandably) and it wasn’t until just a few years ago that she started the process of healing. I’m happy to report that she is now a happy, successful woman and she now has a more authentic, loving relationship with the Lord than ever before. I can’t tell you how thrilled I was to hear that.
I too have a happy ending. Michael said he was 55. I am almost 45. We are the “old timers” of PDI/SGM, you could say. He said in his post here that he was surprised by how much healing he still had to go through after decades of leaving the unhealthy system–and I concur. However, the important point to be made is that the healing did come for both of us, praise be to God! I see in his post a wiser, more mature, more balanced and stable Christian leader, still being used by God in ministry–and no longer the naive, wide-eyed young believer who used to attend TAG meetings in the 70′s. Passionate for God, yes, but too ignorant to know that his leaders were leading him down the wrong path that would later on bring many years of heartache and pain for him and his family.
I too am still serving the Lord–some of you may know I now lead a homeless ministry here in Los Angeles where we serve the poor not just physical food every Sunday morning but more importantly, spiritual food. I have had the wonderful opportunity of leading quite a few drug addicts, alcoholics and prostitutes to the Lord and it’s certainly not by doing it the PDI way. No…I still use the “old-fashioned” and basic approach of telling people how much Jesus loves them no matter how much they’ve sinned and how wonderfully He has created them and wants to give them a bright hope and a future…to prosper them and not to harm them.
During this God-ordained talk I had today with this amazing, intelligent woman (who was told, when she was still immersed in PDI, that she was ”too stupid” to make anything of her life because she had some learning disabilities), something she said struck a chord with me. ”Isn’t it ironic that this organization started out with the name People of Destiny?” Indeed, how ironic and how truly tragic. PDI, now called Sovreign Grace, not only steals people of their destinies and God-given and unique talents and giftings (unless you learn to play by their rules and then maybe you’ve got a shot at becoming one of the “chosen, hand-picked leaders”)…they rob you of the thrills of living a truly grace-filled life, the joys of simply being a child of God (with no need to perform to please the Father who is already immensely pleased with us just because He made us), and the awesome privilege of living the promised John 10:10 abundant life!
For years I lived in a cloud of depression and darkness, living with an abusive husband who was completely supported by the mysogynistic system of PDI and forgetting who I really was and who God made me to be (to the point of wanting to take my own life). It may have taken me many years to get here but I am happy to tell all of you who need to know if there is a light at the end of the tunnel…YES, ABSOLUTELY! There can be an end to your agony. There can be an end to all the shame and guilt. There can even be an end to all your anger and bitterness towards PDI/SGM. (The fact that I was able to have genuine, happy facebook conversations with my old friends from CLC this past week is a testament to this. I know I can still enjoy the good memories while choosing to let go of the negative ones.) And yes,there can be the beginning of the life God has always wanted you to have! But you’ll probably have to leave SGM to find it.
Good night, my friends, and thanks so much for supporting this blog and the hurting, lost and confused sheep who come here. I may not come very often but when I do, it is always refreshing…always healing…and always puts a smile on my face knowing that I am not the only SGM survivor to have found the real essence of being a Christ follower! May you all live out your destinies in Christ to the fullest and may His love and true sovreign grace overwhelm you over and over again…as if for the very first time
God bless you all!
Pia
Pia:
I am flting out the door, but wanted to leave a quick note…
So glad to see you here again! Thank you for the update, and I’ll be praying for God’s continual blessings to surround you in both valleys and mountain tops.
–pk
Oh Pia— Thankyou, thankyou for sharing your heart and your story with us.
What a wonderful beautiful testimony of Gods faithfulness to you, His deliverance and Redemption—– Praise Him! You have trumpeted so much Truth and Light in your testimony—–God is glorified! The Lord continue to uphold you, your family and the work you are doing among the the needy ! With love in Christ Jesus, Waters
Pia!!!! I’m so glad you “popped in”!!! It’s so good to “see” you again!!
Pia,
Its awesome reading your “Praise Report”….
GOD IS GOOD
Hi Pia! Welcome back! Thank you so much for telling us how you are doing. I figure that most people who stop posting are just moving on with their lives, having found healing. I’m glad that goes for you. Your story is always riveting and tragic and uplifting all at once. As for helping the homeless – you go, girl! What a special love God has given you to lift up the poor…true religion at its best. I must add that it is good to hear that a woman stood up to her husband to protect her children from his abuse. So many who do end up suffering the shunning from those they once trusted. So what? Those people weren’t real friends in the end. I’m glad to hear that your kids survived their experience and are grateful to their wonderful Mom for protecting them. It’s so good to hear from you Pia!