Comments on: The Fruit of Good Pastoring http://sgmrefuge.com/2008/08/06/the-fruit-of-good-pastoring/ a haven for castaways, a call for reform Fri, 30 Jul 2010 09:07:56 -0400 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.4 hourly 1 By: Canary http://sgmrefuge.com/2008/08/06/the-fruit-of-good-pastoring/comment-page-6/#comment-15969 Canary Fri, 19 Mar 2010 14:48:01 +0000 http://sgmrefuge.com/?p=87#comment-15969   It strikes me as a tall tale.  I mean no offense, but a couple of other witnesses to confirm this story would be best.  Which church?  Which pastor?  Which friend?  Guess we can't be too careful on the internest, these days.   That sort of accusation against a pastor is really serious, and calls for serious back-up of the facts.  I'm just saying...   It strikes me as a tall tale.  I mean no offense, but a couple of other witnesses to confirm this story would be best.  Which church?  Which pastor?  Which friend?  Guess we can’t be too careful on the internest, these days.   That sort of accusation against a pastor is really serious, and calls for serious back-up of the facts.  I’m just saying…

]]> By: John Immel http://sgmrefuge.com/2008/08/06/the-fruit-of-good-pastoring/comment-page-6/#comment-15968 John Immel Fri, 19 Mar 2010 14:34:43 +0000 http://sgmrefuge.com/?p=87#comment-15968 Stilla… fool-proof?  Hahahah  Who’s the fool and where’s the proof?   Its good that you got out of the trap! I don’t know why but that strikes me as really funny. Stilla… fool-proof?  Hahahah  Who’s the fool and where’s the proof?   Its good that you got out of the trap!
I don’t know why but that strikes me as really funny.

]]> By: Canary http://sgmrefuge.com/2008/08/06/the-fruit-of-good-pastoring/comment-page-6/#comment-15967 Canary Fri, 19 Mar 2010 14:28:08 +0000 http://sgmrefuge.com/?p=87#comment-15967 Wow, I can't believe the deceitfulness of that pastor.  Wow, there are no words. Have you posted here before? Does anyone else in that church know what happened? Because this kind of comment would be best verified by two or three witnesses, as the bible suggests. It seems almost unbelievable. No offense intended, honestly. Can anyone verify this story? Because, if true, a lying pastor should be an out-of-work pastor. Wow, I can’t believe the deceitfulness of that pastor.  Wow, there are no words. Have you posted here before? Does anyone else in that church know what happened? Because this kind of comment would be best verified by two or three witnesses, as the bible suggests. It seems almost unbelievable. No offense intended, honestly. Can anyone verify this story? Because, if true, a lying pastor should be an out-of-work pastor.

]]> By: Stunned http://sgmrefuge.com/2008/08/06/the-fruit-of-good-pastoring/comment-page-6/#comment-15966 Stunned Fri, 19 Mar 2010 11:15:49 +0000 http://sgmrefuge.com/?p=87#comment-15966 StillaChristian, that sounds so horrible.  I'm sorry you suffered through that.  Unfortunately, those of us who used to be in SGM can actually believe that ludicrious story because it rings oh so true to many of us. Stunned StillaChristian, that sounds so horrible.  I’m sorry you suffered through that.  Unfortunately, those of us who used to be in SGM can actually believe that ludicrious story because it rings oh so true to many of us.

Stunned

]]> By: StillaChristian http://sgmrefuge.com/2008/08/06/the-fruit-of-good-pastoring/comment-page-6/#comment-15961 StillaChristian Fri, 19 Mar 2010 00:58:24 +0000 http://sgmrefuge.com/?p=87#comment-15961 You have to admit that the SGM leader's playbook is slick. Here is one where no matter which way you cut it the leader wins: We were told publicly one Sunday morning that the books (finance stuff) were open to anyone. Just come in to the office and ask; and I'll be glad to show you. When a friend(now ex-SGMer) went in to ask to see the books the pastor said, "Why?.... you need to trust the 'godly' leadership God has ordained in your life!" My friend left discouraged and betrayed. He came to me and said, "Hey I went to look at the books and was told I couldn't and that I had trust issues." I said let's go. You see publically the pastor appeared "transparrent." When we approached him about it, he said we were both candidates for Church discipline. You see my friend and I were now guilty of conspiring against the leadership. Whoa, it's a fool-proof trap. You have to admit that the SGM leader’s playbook is slick.
Here is one where no matter which way you cut it the leader wins:
We were told publicly one Sunday morning that the books (finance stuff) were open to anyone. Just come in to the office and ask; and I’ll be glad to show you. When a friend(now ex-SGMer) went in to ask to see the books the pastor said, “Why?…. you need to trust the ‘godly’ leadership God has ordained in your life!” My friend left discouraged and betrayed. He came to me and said, “Hey I went to look at the books and was told I couldn’t and that I had trust issues.” I said let’s go. You see publically the pastor appeared “transparrent.” When we approached him about it, he said we were both candidates for Church discipline.
You see my friend and I were now guilty of conspiring against the leadership. Whoa, it’s a fool-proof trap.

]]> By: Ellie http://sgmrefuge.com/2008/08/06/the-fruit-of-good-pastoring/comment-page-6/#comment-9547 Ellie Wed, 01 Apr 2009 22:18:43 +0000 http://sgmrefuge.com/?p=87#comment-9547 "Erik, for the record, I’m not a calvinist anymore…nor do I believe in total depravity  of the believer….not sure how many people know that here, but I think most do if they read my blog..and they are still nice to me haha it really isn’t about doctrine on this blog - yeah, some do have agendas and push their thinkings on others, it happens. But forthe most part, the Spirit is present and the Presence of Him permeates things…people are able to hear the truth, set free, encouraged, exhorted, and many words of wisdom are given. It is a true blessing to be able to be part of it all. I don’t agree with all that others do, but that’s OK" Erik, like Julie, I'm not a calvinist, either. :) Before the last couple years, I didn't really know much about the whole cal/arm thing. Because I came out of the RC church, protestant/catholic differences were enough for me - I was too busy raising my family and following Jesus and learning about Him. In a way, it's like PDI/sgm are two different churches. There are those of us that have been there for a long time and didn't mind the change over to calvinism, and then there are those of us that stayed because this was our church family & either didn't care about the calvinism or just disagreed and flew under the radar about it all, then there those that left when the doctrines of PDI were changed. It's not like those of us that disagreed really had any kind of choice or input. And then there are the newer (relatively speaking) members who have known nothing about PDI/sgm's life before calvinism. I hope that you stay around, Erik! You don't have to comment every day, I don't even post as much as I used to, but I do try to read. It's been great having you here - your words have been very encouraging. :D     “Erik, for the record, I’m not a calvinist anymore…nor do I believe in total depravity  of the believer….not sure how many people know that here, but I think most do if they read my blog..and they are still nice to me haha
it really isn’t about doctrine on this blog – yeah, some do have agendas and push their thinkings on others, it happens. But forthe most part, the Spirit is present and the Presence of Him permeates things…people are able to hear the truth, set free, encouraged, exhorted, and many words of wisdom are given. It is a true blessing to be able to be part of it all. I don’t agree with all that others do, but that’s OK”
Erik, like Julie, I’m not a calvinist, either. :) Before the last couple years, I didn’t really know much about the whole cal/arm thing. Because I came out of the RC church, protestant/catholic differences were enough for me – I was too busy raising my family and following Jesus and learning about Him.
In a way, it’s like PDI/sgm are two different churches. There are those of us that have been there for a long time and didn’t mind the change over to calvinism, and then there are those of us that stayed because this was our church family & either didn’t care about the calvinism or just disagreed and flew under the radar about it all, then there those that left when the doctrines of PDI were changed. It’s not like those of us that disagreed really had any kind of choice or input. And then there are the newer (relatively speaking) members who have known nothing about PDI/sgm’s life before calvinism.
I hope that you stay around, Erik! You don’t have to comment every day, I don’t even post as much as I used to, but I do try to read. It’s been great having you here – your words have been very encouraging. :D
 
 

]]> By: Sopwith http://sgmrefuge.com/2008/08/06/the-fruit-of-good-pastoring/comment-page-6/#comment-9545 Sopwith Wed, 01 Apr 2009 19:56:12 +0000 http://sgmrefuge.com/?p=87#comment-9545 I gotz dis here card taday, and it saz: <em>"Every time a heart is touched by kindness, another flower blooms."</em> Thank you for your kindness. Happy April, everybudy! Sopy I gotz dis here card taday, and it saz:

“Every time a heart
is touched by kindness,
another flower blooms.”

Thank you for your kindness.

Happy April, everybudy!

Sopy

]]> By: Jim http://sgmrefuge.com/2008/08/06/the-fruit-of-good-pastoring/comment-page-6/#comment-9544 Jim Wed, 01 Apr 2009 19:44:17 +0000 http://sgmrefuge.com/?p=87#comment-9544 :-) :-)

]]> By: Gratefully Disillusioned from SGM http://sgmrefuge.com/2008/08/06/the-fruit-of-good-pastoring/comment-page-5/#comment-9541 Gratefully Disillusioned from SGM Wed, 01 Apr 2009 19:16:45 +0000 http://sgmrefuge.com/?p=87#comment-9541 Jim, Yes it is--already turned the page.  Peace. :-) Jim,
Yes it is–already turned the page.  Peace. :-)

]]> By: Jim http://sgmrefuge.com/2008/08/06/the-fruit-of-good-pastoring/comment-page-5/#comment-9538 Jim Wed, 01 Apr 2009 19:10:42 +0000 http://sgmrefuge.com/?p=87#comment-9538 Gratefully, I'm not sure where I over reached. I think Erik and I are saying the same thing. We just disagree on the context and meaning of  <a href="http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?go=Go&q=Proverbs+23%3A7" rel="nofollow">Proverbs 23:7</a>. It's a small matter. Gratefully,

I’m not sure where I over reached. I think Erik and I are saying the same thing. We just disagree on the context and meaning of  Proverbs 23:7. It’s a small matter.

]]> By: canary http://sgmrefuge.com/2008/08/06/the-fruit-of-good-pastoring/comment-page-5/#comment-9536 canary Wed, 01 Apr 2009 18:59:39 +0000 http://sgmrefuge.com/?p=87#comment-9536 Thanks, Eric.  Link, please.  It might help many people who read, here. G.D.,  Thanks!  Think my kitty is looking a little more perturbed than usual?  He doesn't like all these folks being set free around here.  Think I'll flitter over to John Immel's site, and give putty tat a little something new to digest.  Hee-hee! Thanks, Eric.  Link, please.  It might help many people who read, here.

G.D.,  Thanks!  Think my kitty is looking a little more perturbed than usual?  He doesn’t like all these folks being set free around here.  Think I’ll flitter over to John Immel’s site, and give putty tat a little something new to digest.  Hee-hee!

]]> By: Juli http://sgmrefuge.com/2008/08/06/the-fruit-of-good-pastoring/comment-page-5/#comment-9533 Juli Wed, 01 Apr 2009 18:33:03 +0000 http://sgmrefuge.com/?p=87#comment-9533 Erik, for the record, I'm not a calvinist anymore...nor do I believe in total depravity  of the believer....not sure how many people know that here, but I think most do if they read my blog..and they are still nice to me :) haha it really isn't about doctrine on this blog - yeah, some do have agendas and push their thinkings on others, it happens. But forthe most part, the Spirit is present and the Presence of Him permeates things...people are able to hear the truth, set free, encouraged, exhorted, and many words of wisdom are given. It is a true blessing to be able to be part of it all. I don't agree with all that others do, but that's OK! There is unity here...not uniformity. And that is a GOOD thing! and I totally agree with you that the philosophy of SGM and our doctrines have been deeply ingraned on many of us and it takes time to de-program our minds and just unite. It is interesting to me how quickly you saw this phenomenon being played out...very interesting. Erik, for the record, I’m not a calvinist anymore…nor do I believe in total depravity  of the believer….not sure how many people know that here, but I think most do if they read my blog..and they are still nice to me :) haha

it really isn’t about doctrine on this blog – yeah, some do have agendas and push their thinkings on others, it happens. But forthe most part, the Spirit is present and the Presence of Him permeates things…people are able to hear the truth, set free, encouraged, exhorted, and many words of wisdom are given. It is a true blessing to be able to be part of it all. I don’t agree with all that others do, but that’s OK!

There is unity here…not uniformity. And that is a GOOD thing!

and I totally agree with you that the philosophy of SGM and our doctrines have been deeply ingraned on many of us and it takes time to de-program our minds and just unite. It is interesting to me how quickly you saw this phenomenon being played out…very interesting.

]]> By: Gratefully Disillusioned from SGM http://sgmrefuge.com/2008/08/06/the-fruit-of-good-pastoring/comment-page-5/#comment-9532 Gratefully Disillusioned from SGM Wed, 01 Apr 2009 18:13:12 +0000 http://sgmrefuge.com/?p=87#comment-9532 Erik, If it's excellent, post the link. :-) Erik,

If it’s excellent, post the link. :-)

]]> By: Gratefully Disillusioned from SGM http://sgmrefuge.com/2008/08/06/the-fruit-of-good-pastoring/comment-page-5/#comment-9530 Gratefully Disillusioned from SGM Wed, 01 Apr 2009 18:04:55 +0000 http://sgmrefuge.com/?p=87#comment-9530 I see you canary.  Yes you are still on top of your cage.  Your 12:05 post is visible.  :-) I see you canary.  Yes you are still on top of your cage.  Your 12:05 post is visible.  :-)

]]> By: canary http://sgmrefuge.com/2008/08/06/the-fruit-of-good-pastoring/comment-page-5/#comment-9529 canary Wed, 01 Apr 2009 18:03:46 +0000 http://sgmrefuge.com/?p=87#comment-9529 RT, Wing cuddles to you.  We all know you meant no offense (those of us who have been posting long enough).  :) RT,

Wing cuddles to you.  We all know you meant no offense (those of us who have been posting long enough).  :)

]]> By: canary http://sgmrefuge.com/2008/08/06/the-fruit-of-good-pastoring/comment-page-5/#comment-9528 canary Wed, 01 Apr 2009 18:01:56 +0000 http://sgmrefuge.com/?p=87#comment-9528 Oh, phooey.  I guess I don't get my questions of 12:05 answered, do I?  Am I invisible?  Can you all still see my tweety on top of the cage?  Just wanting to be sure... Oh, phooey.  I guess I don’t get my questions of 12:05 answered, do I?  Am I invisible?  Can you all still see my tweety on top of the cage?  Just wanting to be sure…

]]> By: Gracie http://sgmrefuge.com/2008/08/06/the-fruit-of-good-pastoring/comment-page-5/#comment-9527 Gracie Wed, 01 Apr 2009 17:19:17 +0000 http://sgmrefuge.com/?p=87#comment-9527 I've been out of PDI WAY long, so for me this conversation was a blast from the past.  That's it.  It's true that none of those more evangelistic songs made me fall at my feet and worship Jesus.  None of them were particularly inspiring back then or now other than as a reminder that there were lost out there to be reached and WE were the ones to be reaching them.  The fact that they were EVER sung in PDI is remarkable and was what I was conversing about,  not the quality of the songs themselves.  Plus any songs that I might have known from PDI/SGM are 20 years old and back then there were a few good ones (ones that focused on Jesus and were not me-centered), but I cannot speak to the tenor or quality of their current songs or songwriters.  I know very little about that, other than what I have heard here and through my sister.  IMO, Larry T was the evangelist of the bunch.  He has some sweet stories about encounters with the lost (not just Christians from other churches) and how the Lord worked through him and others to touch their lives.  I often wondered if his influence was the reason there were e-teams, evangelistic outreaches and evangelistic music within PDI for awhile.  I was trying to make two points:  One, the lack of emphasis on evangelism (or a distored view of WHO can evangelize) in some sectors of SGM was not always that way.  And two, it is encouraging to me that  I can think of and even hum through a few old PDI songs and not have a bad reaction.  I’ve been out of PDI WAY long, so for me this conversation was a blast from the past.  That’s it.  It’s true that none of those more evangelistic songs made me fall at my feet and worship Jesus.  None of them were particularly inspiring back then or now other than as a reminder that there were lost out there to be reached and WE were the ones to be reaching them.  The fact that they were EVER sung in PDI is remarkable and was what I was conversing about,  not the quality of the songs themselves.  Plus any songs that I might have known from PDI/SGM are 20 years old and back then there were a few good ones (ones that focused on Jesus and were not me-centered), but I cannot speak to the tenor or quality of their current songs or songwriters.  I know very little about that, other than what I have heard here and through my sister. 

IMO, Larry T was the evangelist of the bunch.  He has some sweet stories about encounters with the lost (not just Christians from other churches) and how the Lord worked through him and others to touch their lives.  I often wondered if his influence was the reason there were e-teams, evangelistic outreaches and evangelistic music within PDI for awhile. 

I was trying to make two points:  One, the lack of emphasis on evangelism (or a distored view of WHO can evangelize) in some sectors of SGM was not always that way.  And two, it is encouraging to me that  I can think of and even hum through a few old PDI songs and not have a bad reaction. 

]]> By: John Immel http://sgmrefuge.com/2008/08/06/the-fruit-of-good-pastoring/comment-page-5/#comment-9525 John Immel Wed, 01 Apr 2009 16:56:55 +0000 http://sgmrefuge.com/?p=87#comment-9525 Erik... yes ... stick around.  Trust me your voice here really does matter regardless of doctrinal pedigree.  peace out! The deleterious problem child!! yee haw Erik… yes … stick around.  Trust me your voice here really does matter regardless of doctrinal pedigree. 

peace out!

The deleterious problem child!! yee haw

]]> By: Gratefully Disillusioned from SGM http://sgmrefuge.com/2008/08/06/the-fruit-of-good-pastoring/comment-page-5/#comment-9524 Gratefully Disillusioned from SGM Wed, 01 Apr 2009 16:56:44 +0000 http://sgmrefuge.com/?p=87#comment-9524 PK, I sure agree with you on some of the music.  For instance check out <strong>Behold the Lamb! </strong> If the words and truth of these lyrics don't cause that LIFE living in you to rise up and say hallelujah, nothing will.  Check it out: Behold the Lamb Silent before His accusers As thorns are pressed into His brow They lift Him up Oh see the spikes that hold Him Redeeming blood flows down <strong>But look again The cross stands empty now And He is risen </strong> Behold the Lamb See Him crowned with glory Behold the Lamb Cast your crowns before Him Crying Holy Holy is the Lamb Behold the Lamb Carrying all our transgressions He freely takes our place Endures the lash The mocking and the laughter Of those He dies to save <strong>But look again The cross stands empty now</strong> PK,
I sure agree with you on some of the music.  For instance check out Behold the Lamb!  If the words and truth of these lyrics don’t cause that LIFE living in you to rise up and say hallelujah, nothing will.  Check it out:
Behold the Lamb
Silent before His accusers
As thorns are pressed into His brow
They lift Him up
Oh see the spikes that hold Him
Redeeming blood flows down
But look again
The cross stands empty now
And He is risen

Behold the Lamb
See Him crowned with glory
Behold the Lamb
Cast your crowns before Him
Crying Holy Holy is the Lamb

Behold the Lamb
Carrying all our transgressions
He freely takes our place
Endures the lash
The mocking and the laughter
Of those He dies to save
But look again
The cross stands empty now

]]> By: ReformedTeacher http://sgmrefuge.com/2008/08/06/the-fruit-of-good-pastoring/comment-page-5/#comment-9523 ReformedTeacher Wed, 01 Apr 2009 16:35:15 +0000 http://sgmrefuge.com/?p=87#comment-9523 Erik!! I am sorry if I offended in any way.  I was not trying to attack or denigrate the songs shared, I was simply attempting to express uneasiness about demeaning songs about the cross or about the blood of Jesus.  I did step foot in an SGM church one time, but we left halfway through.  It is the only church which our family has ever left halfway through. The hair on the back of my head was standing up and my kindergartner tugged on my  hand, looked up at me, and said he wanted to go, since all the songs were about 'me.' Actually, that memory is what triggered my thought and my post. You said, "As you have so long thought in your hearts (or been taught to think), you’ve become."  Ouch.  That hurt.  I find that to be condemning and thought-less.  Dear pastor-brother, I beg you to consider your tone towards a sister who you have never met, who made no personal attacks on you, who rejoices in your freedom and in your fruitful ministry, but also finds freedom herself to ask whether we should denigrate songs about the blood of Christ or about the Cross. I have loved having your input here--we are all the adored Bride of Christ, and will spend eternity in the new heavens and earth together, seeing face to face what we only see through a glass darkly now.  You and I are united in Jesus, let us be united here. Erik!!

I am sorry if I offended in any way.  I was not trying to attack or denigrate the songs shared, I was simply attempting to express uneasiness about demeaning songs about the cross or about the blood of Jesus. 

I did step foot in an SGM church one time, but we left halfway through.  It is the only church which our family has ever left halfway through. The hair on the back of my head was standing up and my kindergartner tugged on my  hand, looked up at me, and said he wanted to go, since all the songs were about ‘me.’

Actually, that memory is what triggered my thought and my post.

You said, “As you have so long thought in your hearts (or been taught to think), you’ve become.”  Ouch.  That hurt.  I find that to be condemning and thought-less.  Dear pastor-brother, I beg you to consider your tone towards a sister who you have never met, who made no personal attacks on you, who rejoices in your freedom and in your fruitful ministry, but also finds freedom herself to ask whether we should denigrate songs about the blood of Christ or about the Cross.

I have loved having your input here–we are all the adored Bride of Christ, and will spend eternity in the new heavens and earth together, seeing face to face what we only see through a glass darkly now.  You and I are united in Jesus, let us be united here.

]]>