So CJ’s back from vacation, which means he has to get back to that daily grind of doing whatever it is that he does for a living.
In his latest blog post, he speaks highly of Art Monk’s faith and words, while broad-brushing “too many pro athletes”.
Monk speaks of the grace and power of God in his life, says that he is defined by the Word of God, and that his identity is found in the Lord.
But CJ knows the real inspiration behind Monk’s words.
The fruit of good pastoring.
Oh. My. Goodness.
I couldn’t invent these man centered, self serving statements if I wanted to.
From CJ’s blog:
From my view in the cheap seats, too many pro athletes who profess Christ appear theologically ignorant, have little or no involvement in the local church, and have no pastoral oversight in their lives. Monk’s speech appears to be the fruit of good pastoring. ( emphasis mine) If more professional athletes participated in churches where sound doctrine was taught, there might be more examples like Art Monk and Darrell Green.
HT: Concerned
August 7th, 2008 at 2:50 am
“Monk speaks of the grace and power of God in his life, says that he is defined by the Word of God, and that his identity is found in the Lord.”
CJ wants to take the glory given to the LORD and give it to PASTORS??
What utter arrogance. Is he THAT blind to what he is saying??
I am astounded.
August 7th, 2008 at 9:19 am
Art Monk says,
“So I’ve learned a long time ago never to put my faith or trust in man, for man will always fail you. Man will always disappoint you. But the Word of God says that Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever. And He will never fail you.”
CJ praises Art for his words about God and thinks that Art says what he says because he followed a man.
This is very revealing. It tells me that he probably takes credit when someone in the church has a deep relationship with God. Humility? I guess it is all in how you define it.
August 7th, 2008 at 9:24 am
Mike,
When my ex sr pastor came home for Christmas break while at the pc, we had lunch, and I of course gave him another reason to address my pride.
He had a new definition for me-”stealing God’s glory”.
The extra biblical clergy/laity distinction is getting worse at SGM, with CJ seemingly leading the way.
August 7th, 2008 at 12:36 pm
I’m still picking up my jaw from the floor on that one… does the self-aggrandizementof these men know no bounds? The pastor-idolatry at SGM is so disheartening precisely because Art Monk’s words are so true: Man will always disappoint you. And man, when the people sitting in SGM’s pews start to get disappointed, there’s going to be a lot of devastated lives.
August 7th, 2008 at 1:10 pm
My friends in SGM have lost their passion for the Word of God (as I did before I left), they don’t really pray anymore, they have become legalistic…and this all because of a church that was adopted into SGM, not even planted. The spiritual strongholds move that fast! These people were on fire for Jesus before SGM – SGM legalistic spirit and idolatry sucked the life (Holy Spirit) out of them!
some days I do get quite angry. And sometimes I make the excuse that it’s because I’ve been spiritually abused and I can justify somehow being angry – but you know what? I am still responsible for how I respond to SGM’s abuse, my church’s abuse…I’m not just pointing the finger at SGM alone…I went to great lengths in confessing my sin to my pastors before I left. I know clearly what I am at fault for. But I also know what the environment was that encouraged my own sin.
But it isn’t about getting even, or getting back..I’m simply thinking about my friends who are still there and whose spiritual lives are being sucked dry. It’s like watching people you love go to prison and they have no clue because they think they are going to be part of some wonderful family, but in reality they will labor, work and be a slave and be miserable..and they won’t listen to your pleading to not go with these men who are false shepherds. These shepherds who promise protection, covering, grace and to be part of the dearest place on earth.
Bottom line, it irks my former shepherds that I don’t “receive” their counsel anymore. My own Sr pastor said it himself. That I don’t apparently trust them or blindly follow them anymore. They lost their power and control over me, and they know it.
So I will agree with CJ on one hand, that pastoral care sometimes is the reason we are who we are spiritually – I know it is certainly true for me!! So I will give credit to how messed up I am spiritually (in great part) to Sovereign Grace pastoral care and oversight – thanks CJ! You’re the man! You and your little SGM apostles and pastors have done such a wonderful job: you’ve bound me up in legalism, you taught me how to worship the Body and not the Head, you confused me about what true humility and grace were, you twisted Scripture, you redefined Biblical words and doctrines, you lied to me about who and what my spiritual covering was, and last but not least, your teaching quenched the working of the Holy Spirit in my life. Wow. Thanks. You should pat yourselves on the back for such great pastoral care.
August 7th, 2008 at 1:15 pm
{{{{{{{{{{{{{ Concerned }}}}}}}}}}}}}
August 7th, 2008 at 1:49 pm
There is one SGM pastor who God used greatly in my life. I’ll be forever grateful, and he knows it.
I can’t imagine him making a statement that resembles CJ’s in this post.
August 7th, 2008 at 1:55 pm
Unbelievable. Truly unbelievable. CJ’s comment is very revealing. It’s as shocking as the “standing in the stead of God” comment awhile back. But it is comments like these that help us to see and understand that we are not making this stuff up! Some errors that were nebulous and hard to finger back in my day are now openly displayed on their blogs.
August 7th, 2008 at 2:17 pm
True Gracie.
The more he talks, the easier this is
August 7th, 2008 at 3:05 pm
From Concerned in Thursdays are Prayer and Praise…
“I think everyone in SGM should take a test. A test to see if you are in bondage….The test would be to abstain from any and all Sovereign Grace Ministries activities for one month….”
Concerned,
Good idea and even better than “No SGM” for a month, I’d recommend periodically going to a different church for a month – something different from what I am accustomed to. I think it would be useful exercise for any believer. There are several benefits:
1) Get to see how God works in different setting and by various means
2) I am often tempted to become attached to certain ideas, preferences, and unwritten rules over time – it’s human nature. Having my sacred cows slaughtered on a regular basis encourages humility, wisdom, and reliance on God
3) Make new friends
4) Hear a different perspective on the same topics you’ve been hearing about for years
5) Build confidence in your relationship with God as you see Him work in your life in any context
One of the issues at SGM that became increasingly problematic for me was the isolation from most of the body of Christ. SGM will not work with anyone they do not agree with within a very narrow set of criteria. When I got involved in missions, I encountered a completely different culture of collaboration and cooperation. Also, I’ve switched churches twice in 25 years, and I’m contemplating a third move now. Each time I have had to relearn how to do ministry and how to view church polity.
I’m not recommending becoming butterflies, going here and there without committed friendships and working relationships, just that I need to get out more often, and that it is very health to do so.
Which brings me to pastoral care. SGM has always justified its small world as “protecting the sheep”, but who are they protecting? Paul said to the Corinthians, “You have many guardians but few fathers.” As a father, I want my son to be confident in any situation, so I intentionally expose him different a and sometimes challenging experiences. I’m always there to spot him if he falls, but I love it when he conquers a new challenge and beams, “Wow, that was cool Dad!”
I’m not just bashing SGM, but asking wider question. Do we need to re-thing the nature of pastoral care? As leaders, are we tempted to simply guard people like hired nannies and make sure they behave, or are we fathering spiritual children? I know I have been guilty of the former, but would prefer to do the later.
Finally, I’ve been listening to Bible on CD, and I’m in Corinthians right now. Even though Paul gave quite a few specific commands and rebukes, the whole tone of his discourse is a loving and affectionate appeal, knowing the risk that they could choose to respond or not respond. Fortunately they did for the most part. I’ve not found much of the father type of apostleship in US churches. Does anyone get what I am saying?
August 7th, 2008 at 3:44 pm
Greg,
That was very well-said. I completely agree with the first part, about experiencing new places of worship to get you out of your comfort zone. That was the reason I left my SGM church. I visited a different church with friends, and said, oh yeah, now I remember, that’s what church is supposed to be like! It was a refreshing experience. I like what you have to say in the second part, but I also feel that opposite of the “guarding” thing happens too, that pastors simply present their message, and discipleship goes by the wayside.
August 7th, 2008 at 4:00 pm
Mike A,
I completely agree. If fact, I feel that the proper balance is the key to leadership. What mystifies me is why the balance is so hard to find in the church. Most of us (including pastors) are parents, and we make decisions every day concerning our natural children: when to correct, when to guide, when to let go, etc. I guess I’m suggesting that if leaders loved their congregations more, and we are confident of that love, the differences and challenges we go through in the church would be less painful in the long term. For example, Paul tells the Corinthians that the sorrow they felt over his rebuke for their tolerance of an incestuous relationship should leave “no regret”. I have yet to read a story on this site where the original problem could not have been resolved in a loving and beneficial way. Does that make sense?
August 7th, 2008 at 4:03 pm
Yeah that makes more sense. I agree.
August 7th, 2008 at 4:31 pm
Greg,
I have yet to read a story on this site where the original problem could not have been resolved in a loving and beneficial way.
That’s the quote of the day!
August 7th, 2008 at 5:56 pm
Good suggestions, Greg! I wonder if it does come down to job security– or lack thereof. Some CLCers that I know make it a point to vacation where they can still attend an SGM church.
In college, I loved worshipping with other believers from a variety of churches every Friday night at our IVCF large group meeting. We then tried each other’s churches on Sunday mornings–and eventually through a PCA church, through a big non-denominational church, through a John Wimber conference, I wound up at CLC hoping that all of those experiences were now met in one. If SGM were more open to working together with other churches, less self-satisfied, less convinced it is “the dearest place on earth”, less fearful of outside influences, perhaps it could have been (and might yet still be.)
August 7th, 2008 at 5:59 pm
These words of Mahaney certainly baffle me but as others have pointed out, seem to reveal his true heart.
Isn’t this the same Mahaney that says he is the worst sinner he knows. If so, how can he be saying all of this? Aren’t these contradictory?
The people in SGM always like to say that they are made up of imperfect people? If Mahaney is imperfect, why he is taking this credit or assuming a pastor can take this kind of credit?
Isn’t this a direct violation of what Paul talked about in I Corinthians? This where Paul says:
1 Cor 3:4-8
For when one says, “I am of Paul,” and another, “I am of Apollos,” are you not mere men? 5 What then is Apollos? And what is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, even as the Lord gave opportunity to each one. 6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God was causing the growth. 7 So then neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but God who causes the growth.
NASB
Shouldn’t Mahaney be giving God the credit and not man. God is the one who caused the growth.
August 7th, 2008 at 6:08 pm
Art Monk was a Washington Redskin…did Art go to CJ’s church? just wondering…
August 7th, 2008 at 6:11 pm
Another thought-notice CJ’s leading comment about “where sound doctrine is taught”-that is SGM code for saying “only churches that mostly agree with our doctrine”. At least-that’s how I read it.. thoughts anyone?
August 7th, 2008 at 6:25 pm
I would also add:
If anything shouldn’t have Mahaney praised Art’s father and talked about that importance? Didn’t Monk praise his dad in this case?
Where did Mahaney get pasterhood out of all of this?
August 7th, 2008 at 6:39 pm
Steve-
You’re obviously forgetting that Christian parenthood is virtually impossible without proper pastoring and the “input” of local church leaders and pastors into a parent’s life!
August 7th, 2008 at 7:56 pm
oh. my.
August 7th, 2008 at 8:08 pm
CJ’s statements are getting more and more bizarre.
Good thing he’s in such a strong accountability group.
August 7th, 2008 at 8:15 pm
Penny,
Could you elaborate?
August 7th, 2008 at 8:26 pm
First of all, that is a pretty bold thing to say when pastoring wasn’t even mentioned in the speech. Not that pastoring did not play a role in his life, but… its not what the speech was emphasizing.
Secondly, I’m surprised I did not catch that as I read it only minutes before I came over to this site!
August 7th, 2008 at 8:42 pm
Jim,
On the sgmsurvivors blog, you mentioned something about CJ doing some sort of damage control mission a year ago… what is this about?
August 7th, 2008 at 9:20 pm
One of you should get on Josh’s blog (where he has a link to CJ’s blog post on the side) and bring up this issue… see how him or someone responds. (Since CJ’s blogs don’t allow comments but Josh’s does). I’d be interested in what he had to say.
August 7th, 2008 at 9:36 pm
Penny,
I’ll be interested to see if the comments that are there now remain.
I love screen shots
I can’t address my damage control statement yet, but I’ll be sharing the whole story here soon. I’m sorry.
August 7th, 2008 at 9:43 pm
Are there comments that you think he would delete or do you just mean comments in general?
August 7th, 2008 at 9:46 pm
I’m not sure, Penny. I guess we’ll know tomorrow.
I admire that fact that he allows comments. I hope that he allows dissenting comments to remain.
August 7th, 2008 at 9:48 pm
I like that he allows comments too. I think blogs with no comments are kind of snobby… like, “read what I write but you can’t say anything, just read it.”
I don’t see any dissenting comments at the moment on his blog… are there some coming?
August 7th, 2008 at 9:51 pm
Some interesting connections here…with CJ writing an blog praising whoever pastored Monks and Green….
QUOTES:
Monks and Green were teammates from 1983 to 1993 and when their careers ended they stayed in the Washington area, installing themselves as fixtures of the community. Green, 47, started the Darrell Green Youth Life Foundation in 1988, a learning center to help underprivileged children to improve learning skills. It is still in operation today. Monk, 50, has run the Good Samaritan Foundation, which feeds the poor and also helps children with learning, for 15 years with former teammate Charles Mann. (washingtonpostdotcom)
Both Art Monks and Darrell Green go to church at Grace Covenant Church, Chantilly, VA. Brett and Cynthia Fuller are listed as pastors at Grace Covenant on the “Every Nation” website. The Grace Covenant Church website lists Brett Fuller as the Senior Pastor.
Brett Fuller, chaplain of the Washington Redskins and chairman of Green’s foundation, is a major board member of the parent denomination, Every Nation, and the current president of Champions. He was also a major board member of Maranatha.
Rice Broocks is cofounder of Champions and cofounder of Every Nation and was a major Maranatha board member. He is also a major stockholder and board member of InPop.
Network Formed to Plant Churches in U.S.
Founded by Rice Broocks, ICE-CAP seeks to address declining U.S. church attendance among young adults
A group of charismatic pastors has teamed up to launch a church-planting movement whose goal is to expand God’s kingdom through evangelism and prayer. The International Center for Evangelism, Church-Planting and Prayer (ICE-CAP) launched last summer in Nashville, Tenn., as an extension of Every Nation, an international network comprising more than 400 churches in 50 countries. (factnetdotorg)
Broocks teamed up with author and pastor Larry Tomczak, who once headed People of Destiny International. Renamed Sovereign Grace Ministries in 2003, it’s a pioneering church-planting movement that has established more than 60 churches in the U.S. and abroad.
Broocks also brought on board Dale Evrist, author and pastor of New Song Christian Fellowship in Brentwood, Tenn.
The team united to form ICE-CAP with a goal to contribute to world evangelism, beginning at home. “We’ve all planted a lot of churches, but the key for us is not about my church or Dale’s church succeeding,” Broocks said. “A key phrase for us is that ‘it’s going to take the whole church to reach the whole world.’”
It also takes leaders, stressed ICE-CAP director Tomczak. “A strong percentage of people in churches are not sharing their faith and have never led anybody to Christ,” Tomczak said. “A lot of people are apologetic, fearful; they don’t know how to present the gospel.”
With that in mind, ICE-CAP launched its Leadership Training Institute in October. More than 80 students converged in its first semester to learn about leadership through evangelism and prayer. Currently, the institute is wrapping up its second semester. (Charismamagdotcom)
August 7th, 2008 at 9:57 pm
First comment here, though I’ve been reading pretty much from the beginning. I use the same handle over at sgmsurvivors.
I have some recollection of seeing comments both here and at sgmsurvivors asking why John Piper, Al Mohler and the other reformed big names who are friends of SGM don’t seem to be aware of the abuse that takes place within the movement, or why they haven’t spoken out against it. In my opinion part of why this has not and will not happen is that, despite the pretty significant differences in ideas about church polity between Piper/Mohler/Dever etc. and SGM, a lot of the unhealthy aspects of SGM are really more extreme versions of unhealthy tendencies that are increasingly more characteristic of the broader evangelical reformed movement at large. They don’t censure SGM because for the most part, they approve of how SGM goes about things.
As an example of what I mean, I noticed that CJ’s post on Art Monk was referenced positively on at least two influential evangelical reformed blogs: Justin Taylor’s Theologica and, in a post by Ligon Duncan, on Reformation 21 (Justin Taylor used to be an elder at John Piper’s church, btw). Meanwhile, both Justin Taylor and Tim Challies, another influential evangelical reformed blogger, are plugging SGM’s latest worship music album on their site. It’s increasingly the case that these bloggers and others link to posts, articles, and sermons by men in SGM leadership. I’m not saying that SGM would necessarily enjoy the same kind of reputation in evangelical reformed circles as it does now if all of its dirty laundry were aired, but I do think that the big wigs of the evangelical reformed would look at many of the teachings and perspectives that critics of SGM might consider problematic or wrong and see something that is worthy of praise, not censure. I would be shocked if any reformed leader even gently corrected CJ for ascribing Monk’s comments to “good pastoring.”
Hope that made some sense :p
August 7th, 2008 at 9:59 pm
Whoops, typed in my own handle incorrectly (without the hyphens). It’s been a long day.
August 7th, 2008 at 10:05 pm
Hey W-I-P… (hyphens included…
)
Glad to have you join our community here at The Refuge! I’ve read your comments over on the Survivors site, and have gleaned much… I hope you stick around a while!
August 7th, 2008 at 10:09 pm
Ellie’s mad skills at work again!
I was “going to get around” to trying to figure out where these gentlemen fellowship.
Thanks Ellie!
August 7th, 2008 at 10:15 pm
Work In Progress,
Welcome!
Now you know why I name names when I can-and there’s much more coming!
The Christian community that doesn’t see a problem with CJ’s pontifications is asleep.
When they see the inner workings of his kingdom, they are going to have to make a decision. My desire would be that they come along side him as friends and brothers and lovingly confront him about the little monster he’s created.
I’m still in faith for reform. SGM has too much good going for it. I want to see it redeemed.
August 7th, 2008 at 10:16 pm
You’re welcome!
August 7th, 2008 at 10:19 pm
Maybe I’m too naive, but I’m not ready to believe that SGM’s slash and burn tactics are SOP in all evangelical circles.
August 7th, 2008 at 10:20 pm
…did you happen to notice that Mrs. Fuller is one of Monk’s and Green’s pastors….
::::::::: whistling innocently & being nice :::::::::
August 7th, 2008 at 10:22 pm
Ellie,
August 7th, 2008 at 10:23 pm
I was also wondering about those other men. Wondering if they see what is happening, or the reliability of the stories I’ve heard… If they have seen it, they aren’t being very good Christian brothers by not saying or doing anything! (Don’t take that as judgment or anything against them… but one has to wonder! For the record, I do enjoy some of their books and sermons.)
One could also wonder, what is going on in their churches? Are there similar problems?
August 7th, 2008 at 10:28 pm
Hey Ellie!
“Whistling innocently and being nice”?????
Heh Heh!
August 7th, 2008 at 10:34 pm
Jim,
I wouldn’t say they are SOP, but it does seem to me that there are other movements and leaders in evangelical reformed circles who show the same unhealthy, controlling tendencies as SGM and its leadership, and have yet to be really rebuked for it (RC Sproul Jr and Mark Driscoll are two that come to mind). One of my close relatives used to be a Reformed Presbyterian pastor and can tell many stories of abuses similar to the ones people have shared here about SGM, and worse. As far as I know the pastors responsible for these kinds of abuses were seldom ousted or even really reprimanded. The only difference is that these churches and leaders didn’t have nearly the national reputation that SGM (or Driscoll/Acts29, etc) have. I realize that all sounds a bit cynical, but if the shoe fits . . . :/
I thought I had bookmarked a blog I found which addressed recent issues in Driscoll’s church with pastors being suddenly fired and elders allegedly being coerced into going along with the agenda of a few leaders at the top. I can’t find the link right now. But I will post it when I do; the similarities between SGM and Mars Hill are disturbing to say the least. ETA: that didn’t take long to find! Here’s the link.
Oh, and thanks for the welcome, Jim and Carole
August 7th, 2008 at 10:40 pm
My guess is that either he didn’t check out the pastors’ names on the Every Nation website for Grace Covenant…or Grace Covenant is looking for a new family of churches…
(Carole, I have been nice ALL day.)
August 7th, 2008 at 10:55 pm
Musicman:
Art Monk, Darrell Green and Charles Mann and a number of other current and former Redskins are members of Grace Covenant Church in Chantilly, VA. Brett Fuller, the senior pastor of GCC, was formerly the chaplin of the Redskins
GCC is part of Every Nation Ministries which is the successor to the former Maranatha Campus Ministries. If anyone remembers MCM, it eventually collapsed because of allegations of authoritanism which were exponentially more severe that anything SGM was accused. My understanding was that Brett Fuller was also one of the pastors in MCM who finally stood up to Bob Weiner regarding some of the abuses in MCM and that group forced Mr. Weiner out of his position.
Also, I understand from one of my friends who is a part of ENM is that at one point wehn GCC left MCM and before the formation of ENM, GCC was pursuing being adopted by SGM but Brett apparently became exasparated by the process and withdraw GCC from it.
August 8th, 2008 at 1:36 am
Formersgmer,
Yes, If Monk, Green, and Mann attend an Every Nation Church, it is part of the reorganized version of Maranatha Campus Ministries (MCM). I agree with you about MCM. I had many friends in the MCM church in Gainesville, Florida and it really went far beyond SGM in authoritarianism. Google “everynationexposed” and you will find a blog written by a former member who was sent out on a MCM church plant. I think everyone will agree that Monk’s church has authoritarian roots if it came from the organization that everynationexposed wrote about.
W-I-P,
I attended Mark Driscoll’s church in Seattle for several months. There are big differences from SGM. For one thing, I would guess maybe 10% of the people there on a Sunday are non-believers. Mars Hill Church excels at reaching out. Around half the congregation have been Christians less than 2 years, so there are more messy situations there. Um, they definitely do not have a “modesty checklist” for the women either.
It is true that several long time pastors were fired recently, but I saw no signs of authoritarianism among the congregation.
August 8th, 2008 at 7:20 am
SGMSingle:
During graduate school, I attended an MCM church for about a year and fortunately for me the pastor of my church was one of the more mature and stable pastors in MCM.
He always lead very graciously and I actually caught up with him about twenty years after I had left MCM and he confirmed for me that many if not most of the accusations against Maranatha were true. There were other good pastors in Maranatha but unfortunately these men were squashed by a culture in that ministry that placed performance, numbers and fundraising over genuine pastoring.
I believe that God sovereignly protected me during that year because as I was leaving school and MCM my pastor was replaced by another younger, less mature man who really fit the MCM profile. (i.e, young, zealous, cocky, thinking that MCM was going to reform Christianity and the nation) and at this same time Christianity Today published an expose about Maranatha’s practices and for the first time I am become very concerned about what type of organization MCM really was. I can remember sitting in a meeting hearing the new pastor and other leaders denouncing the CT article as a “pack of lies”
I am not surprised that to hear about stories from the Gainesville church because as you know Gainesville was the headquarters and the base of operations for Bob Weiner who was the principal cause of many of the abuses. lInterestingly, if you have any old copies of “People of Destiny” magazine I believe that you may occasionally find articles by Bob Weiner there.
Finally and also interestingly enough, SGM’s Cornerstone Church in Knoxville is a former MCM church.
August 8th, 2008 at 9:35 am
formersgmer,
Wow, I had never heard that about the Knoxville church, and frankly find it a little disconcerting since some people I really care about go to that church. It’s never once mentioned in the “history” of that church, which is so widely circulated in SGM circles as a good model for evangelistically-minded church planting. Do you have any links to source material regarding that?
August 8th, 2008 at 10:01 am
Exintern:
Go the Cornerstone church website and look at the “our history” under “About us” it clearly says that the church was formerly a part of MCM.
August 8th, 2008 at 10:14 am
thanks, former
August 8th, 2008 at 10:43 am
formersgmer said:
<blockquote>
I am not surprised that to hear about stories from the Gainesville church because as you know Gainesville was the headquarters and the base of operations for Bob Weiner who was the principal cause of many of the abuses. lInterestingly, if you have any old copies of “People of Destiny” magazine I believe that you may occasionally find articles by Bob Weiner there.
Finally and also interestingly enough, SGM’s Cornerstone Church in Knoxville is a former MCM church.<blockquote>
There certainly are similarities between Sovereign Grace Ministries and Maranatha Campus Ministries though it doesn’t appear that SGM has gone to the extreme that Maranatha did.
One similarity that I see is that both of these groups revolved and were controlled by one person with little apparent questioning of what this leader did or decided. Bob Weiner was the leader at MCM and C.J. Mahaney as we know is the leader of SGM. As I have said above, it doesn’t sound like SGM at this time has gone to the extreme that MCM went at the time though Mahaney did appear to route the other founder, Larry Tomczak, from what is now called SGM.
Another similarity is control of people. Again, it doesn’t appear to be the same degree with Maranatha but I am sure Maranatha started with less control so it may get to that extreme.
August 8th, 2008 at 11:52 am
SGMSingle,
I don’t want to belabor the point since this blog isn’t about Mark Driscoll, but even if MHC isn’t quite like SGM now I see enough similarities to be concerned about where it’s headed in the future. For one thing Driscoll is increasingly in contact with SGM leadership and has put himself under the mentorship of CJ and other friends of SGM. Secondly, while MHC may not have modesty checklists, Driscoll has been deeply contemptuous of women in many of his comments and seems to be drifting more and more towards a worldview that sees being at home and childbearing as the only appropriate roles for women. Finally, both the blog I linked and news/blog reports from the time of the leadership shakeup at MHC (google “mark driscoll abuse”) show that many members of the church felt that there was a problem with authoritarianism there, and that the firing of the two pastors was part of a power grab on Driscoll’s and another elder’s part. If I recall correctly, if you browse through the comments on the blog about MHC abuse that I linked, you’ll also find a link to a blog from an ex-member of MHC who experienced spiritual abuse from Driscoll and other MHC pastors (the interactions/meetings she describes between she and her husband and MHC leadership could easily have been written by an ex-SGM member). Anyway, I’ll leave it at that so as not to derail the conversation.
August 8th, 2008 at 12:38 pm
From the ICECAP site:
” Larry Tomczak is an apostolic leader and evangelist with 35 years of ministry experience. He led People of Destiny International, a pioneering church planting movement which has established almost 60 churches in the US and abroad (though now under a different ministry name and leadership)”
Does anyone find this statement incredibly odd? Will he say anything to look good? Why reference a ministry that threw you out on your resume? I thought Larry and his family were really hurt by the mock trial he went through. The statement is not even correct. SGM is no longer a church planting organization. The leaders are empire builders who “boast about work already done in another man’s territory” (2 Cor 10:16). Does anyone remember the last time SGM planted a church from nothing but a CP team? I know they planted North Coast in OH, but they left SGM over many of the issues we are discussing here. Rather, SGM is like the Borg:
“You will be assimilated
Resistance if futile
You will service us”
In any case, I guess Larry deserves credit for focusing on evangelism. I’d be interested in seeing what the outcome will be.
August 8th, 2008 at 1:19 pm
Wow, I just got caught up in my reading here. CJ’s comments are indeed jaw-dropping. What once use to be very subtle is now being said out loud, for everyone to hear. The changes in SGM didn’t happen all at once. I guess the leaders are feeling pretty secure with their big following to step out and actually say what they have thought all these years. I’m still aghast at CJ’s comment that pastors stand in the very stead of God. Good grief, what Bible does he read?
Anyway, the thing I saw in my days at PDI, and what I read of CJ, leaders judge people outside of their church, even celebrities. I remember Elizabeth Taylor being spoken of in one of our meetings – what? – what does she have to do with anything here, I wondered? She wasn’t even there to present a defense.
CJ does this with sports celebrities. My point: Jesus said that He did not come to judge the world, but to save it. If our Lord did not come to judge, how can we? Yet this happened quite alot in my PDI churches. How ashamed I was when I realized how I imitated my “betters” in judging everyone by PDI standards. Now, it is freeing to see that, if Jesus didn’t come to judge the world, I don’t need to either (He said that He didn’t come to judge the world but to save it). I look at people I meet and feel only love for them, no matter who they are or what they do. The removal of judgement from my heart has set me free to walk in the love of Christ.
One of the worse things PDI/SGM has done is to show their members how to judge and condemn those who do not live under their “doctrines”. Sad, sad, sad.
I love Concerned’s test on whether you are in bondage to SGM. I have another thing to add to it: if you lived in the time of Jesus, would you be hanging out with the Pharasees? Or would you be eating with the prostitutes and the tax gathers, and all the people the Pharasee thought were unclean? Where would your heart place you? Jesus didn’t expect people to clean themselves up for Him. He met them, ate with them, drank with them, just the way they were. His love for them was enough. That love changed the world.
Someone on here (was it John?) said that, if you can’t deal with the real world, you probably don’t have the real thing. I would agree.
August 8th, 2008 at 1:19 pm
They didn’t even plant North Coast. It was an existing fellowship before PDI showed up.
From the WorldView Community Church (formerly known as North Coast) website:
“WorldView Community Church began as a group of 12 people meeting together in a home in Brunswick, Ohio in 1980. By 1981, this flourishing congregation had grown to 100 members and began to meet in a local elementary school. Because of the increase of membership, additional pastoral leadership from a church in Washington, D.C. relocated to the area to provide support.”
I think most of the churches that they “planted” were fellowships that were taken over because they “needed guidance”. In my opinion, SGM is still doing the same thing – only now they call it “adopting churches”.
August 8th, 2008 at 1:34 pm
Thanks Ellie. That begs the question, has PDI/SGM ever planted a single church since it’s early days in Montgomery County MD?
August 8th, 2008 at 2:05 pm
I just wanna be able to check the box so I can follow further posts on this thread.
And say I always marvel at the insight and observation power folk on this blog bring to the table.
love you guys…
Peace
August 8th, 2008 at 2:19 pm
I think a poster named Don, on the survivors site, mentioned that CJ and Larry used to speak at MCM events.
August 8th, 2008 at 4:06 pm
Concerned, your last paragraph re: sometimes pastoral care being responsible for where we are spiritually hit the nail on the head. The result of pastoral care in our extended family’s lives has resulted in a family split, casting judgement (them upon us) and serious depression and oppression spiritually (of them, as they are still in the church). I look at these kids and see how depressed, how dysfunctional they are, and how totally, totally under the pastors’ control they are and it makes me sick and heart broken. Anyway…well said.
August 9th, 2008 at 12:19 am
So this may have been mentioned somewhere else, but what exactly happened to Larry Tomczak? He seemed to just disappear… but I’ve heard bits and pieces around here. What is the real story? Or does anyone really know?
August 9th, 2008 at 12:58 pm
pennylane
I do like that name.
Larry Tomczak left when the others in leadership brought up supposed problems with his handling of his children.
An earlier revision in Wikipedia had this to say with citations:
Tomczak eventually left the leadership of PDI in 1998 and has subsequently suggested that the increasingly Calvinistic theology of PDI was a major factor in this parting of the ways [9][10]. He has also described this period as “an unbelievable nightmare” during which his family “were threatened in various ways if we did not cooperate with [PDI]… A letter was circulated in an attempt to discredit me and to distort the events surrounding my departure”[11].
Some postulate that Mahaney may have used the family situation as a means of either forcing out or removing from power the other cofounder of the group. I am sure that we will never know the truth this side of eternity on what really happened. It does sounds quite suspicious what SGM (PDI at the time)/Mahaney did to Tomczak.
The Cleveland PDI Church left PDI about the same time as Tomczak left which seems to indicate they didn’t agree with what was done to him.
Hope this helps.
Steve
August 9th, 2008 at 2:50 pm
Pennylane,
To add to what Steve said, my husband and I drove down to the Atlanta church that Larry began after his ousting, and shortly after we left PDI. It was called Christ the King Church, I believe. He and Doris were very welcoming and understanding (we knew them a little through the Phillips) and prayed for us. They, too, suffered a family split, as some relatives remained in PDI and some left with them. Very tragic. They went through a very terrible time, but their faith in the Lord kept them going. It is good to hear that Larry is involved in mainstream Christian activities again. When PDI kicked him out, they lost one of their greatest Evangelists.
August 9th, 2008 at 5:18 pm
Good Afternoon folks – I have been a “quiet observer” for quite awhile but this is my first time writing on your gracious site. I guess I going to seem alittle forward but I’m going to jump in with a group of verses I have just been led to decree over SGM:
Amos 5:21-24
“I hate, I despise your feasts, and I take no delight in your solumn assemblies. Even though you offer me your burnt offerings and grain offerings, I will not accept them; and the peace offerings of your fattened animals, I will not look upon them.”
“Take away from me the noise of your songs; to the melody of your harps I will not listen. But let justice roll down like waters, and righteousness like an ever-flowing stream.
August 9th, 2008 at 5:23 pm
Welcome quietobserver!
August 9th, 2008 at 5:42 pm
Hey Quiet,
Check out The Message version of those verses:
Amos 5: 21-24-
“I can’t stand your religious meetings.
I’m fed up with your conferences and conventions.
I want nothing to do with your religion projects,
your pretentious slogans and goals.
I’m sick of your fund-raising schemes,
your public relations and image making.
I’ve had all I can take of your noisy ego-music.
When was the last time you sang to me?
Do you know what I want?
I want justice—oceans of it.
I want fairness—rivers of it.
That’s what I want. That’s all I want.”
August 9th, 2008 at 11:30 pm
Whoa, Mike. That is a great translation! Puts the fear of God in me!
Quiet,
So glad you have been reading. Thank you for posting. Good verses!
August 11th, 2008 at 2:23 am
Gosh-If we could all play fair in the body-that would make even the biggest skeptic pause for a moment. Let the oceans and rivers flow!
Thanks for sharing those verses.
MM
August 11th, 2008 at 2:25 pm
Here is what I know of the departure of Larry from PDI based on what was communicated to the CLC congregation. It happened in stages.
1) The original governmental structure was 1) Larry as Apostle 2) C.J. in the Office of Prophet, 3) various pastors and teachers. [Note - I believe this was the product of poor hermeneutics in that lists of gifts and virtues in scripture are descriptive in nature and not intended to be exclusive or directive. For example, compare Eph 4:11 with 2 Cor 12:28 and 2 Cor 12:12. If these passages are intended to dictate an order of authority in church government, then where are the prophets, miracle workers, and healers in the SGM governance structure today? Why is C.J. and apostle when he was not confirmed by miracles as Larry was? The actual context of these passage is unity and a humble respect for role of each person's gift as given by the Holy Spirit]
2) At some point, it was decided (!?) that C.J.’s actual gift was apostleship rather than prophesy, and that Larry, while being apostolic, was not called to be number 1. How this happened and how Larry ever agreed to it is beyond me, and I would love to know what really happened.
3) Larry is “called” to leave CLC to plant a church in Atlanta.
Doris and Bill Kellers (Larry’s sister and brother-in-law) are told to return from Manila after fathering a church for five years and are prohibited from having any further role or contact with those they discipled. C.J shuts down the Manila church plant and any further cross-cultural church planting. Bill, being very hurt, is told to go back to work. They eventually leave SGM. Droves of aspiring missionaries leave PDI.
4) Larry is brought under church discipline for the “sin of pride”. The basis for this was that his son had some struggles (which he publicly repented for) and Larry allegedly downplayed the severity of the issue. That fault was widened into a broad accusation that Larry had a history of exaggeration and minimizing faults. [Note: even if that were true, I doubt it warranted a Matt 18 process and neither the cause nor the subsequent process could be scripturally justified.]
5) A letter signed by Larry is sent out, confessing his faults and agreeing to a term or discipline and restoration.
6) Larry leaves SGM six months later, before the end of the agreed upon “restoration period”. He claims that the letter was written for him and that his signature was coerced. [Note: IMHO, this was a serious mistake by Larry. He should have stood his ground and refused to sign, or waited and few more months until the end of the agreement and left under good terms.]
That’s what I remember. Can anyone fill in the blanks? BTW, where the Kellers and Tomczaks the “fruit of good pastoring?”
August 11th, 2008 at 3:03 pm
Greg,
Thank you for that helpful overview.
This is the second time that I’ve heard that Larry signed the resignation letter that was written by someone else.
August 11th, 2008 at 3:31 pm
Correction: the second reference should be to 1 Cor 12:28
August 11th, 2008 at 3:31 pm
It’s so sad to me that SGM has basically ruined this man’s reputation and credibilty within their group of churches. I remember hearing about Larry Tomxzak when I was a kid, just starting the whole SGM ”experience”… I was young and listened to what I was told, and I grew up thinking of him as a bad guy. I thought he must have been really sinful or had some really big issues to split from C.J……
One thing I find pretty much across the board in SGM is that no one seems to be a Berean. No one seems to want to find anything out for themselves. They just listen to what everybody else says. And they really don’t “think the best” even though they preach it all day long.
There are rivers of kool-aid.
August 11th, 2008 at 4:08 pm
I knew nothing of Larry, as I think that he was long gone before my former church started pursuing SGM.
Why my ex sr p felt the need to show me Larry’s “resignation” letter is beyond me.
August 11th, 2008 at 4:24 pm
All:
Interesting thoughts here about Larry’s resignation letter. I stiil have a copy of it and because its content was heavily laden with reformed termimology my first impression after having read the letter was that it did not sound at all like him and that someone must have drafted for him. Based on the above comments, it seems that my initial impression may have been correct. If somone could actually prove that Larry signed a “forced” confession, you might have the first “smoking gun” against SGM.
August 11th, 2008 at 4:49 pm
I never thought of Larry as a bad guy. I always wondered what the real story was. No one would ever say much and I never saw the letter that was circulated because I didn’t want to be “nosey”. I didn’t even know that there was another letter written by Larry when he resigned. Never heard the true story of North Coast until a short time ago. So many puzzle pieces have come together over the last few months.
August 11th, 2008 at 4:55 pm
I received my copy of the letter in a direct mailing from SGM and I assumed at that time that because of Larry’s very public position that the letter was distributed to anyone who was a member of an SGM church at the time. I would love to hear if anyone else received the same mailing?
But knows..watching SGM is a little back like the old practice of “Kremlinology” where scholars who would attempt to determine who was in favor and who was out based on the relative positions atop the wall of Lenin’s tomb.
August 11th, 2008 at 4:56 pm
I always always preferred to hear Larry speak at Celebration and loved when he visted our church on a Sunday. I didn’t really care to hear CJ speak all that much. I think Larry was so loved that he had to be gradually pushed to the side and then his leaving had to be besmirched by uncertainty and innuendo so as few people as possible would question the whole thing.
I really don’t trust anything coming out from anyone from SGM these days.
August 11th, 2008 at 4:58 pm
I think if there were any legal exposure for SGM (which I doubt there is), Larry would have to pursue it, and he obviously has chosen not to. BTW, I always thought Larry was a decent guy. He was the one who prayed for me to receive Christ. Although he is far from perfect, he and his family did not deserve what happened to them. I think SGM has been afraid of his popularity.
August 11th, 2008 at 5:01 pm
Former-
I still have copies of the discipline letter and the resignation letter. We were not in leadership at the time the letters were sent and I’m pretty sure they went out to any current PDI/SGM member. As soon as I’m done unpacking from our move-I’ll see if I can scan the letters so that the uninitiated can see them for themselves.
Peace
August 11th, 2008 at 5:05 pm
former,
Since Larry is aware of what happened to him, and for whatever reason has chosen not to talk about it, I don’t think that will be the smoking gun.
I’m aware of few things that could blow up in their face-and that’s all I can say about it-please don’t ask.
They have their hands full right now doing damage control on many fronts. I don’t think that they’ll be able to succeed in keeping everything that’s going on under wraps.
August 11th, 2008 at 5:07 pm
You know-just thinking about those letters reminded me of when I first received them in the mail. At first-I thought of how proud I was that our little movement took church discipline with the utmost of seriousness. I remember showing them to a family member (who is a believer) and expecting them to be impressed at what had occurred. I remember being confused when they said they were concerned about the letters and how ambiguous they were about the removal of Larry from leadership. Now I can see what concerned them…oh well… live and suffer.
August 11th, 2008 at 5:10 pm
Your PDI tithes and offerings at work-a mass mailing to scorch some earth and CYA.
August 11th, 2008 at 5:17 pm
Jim:
In some ways, Larry has spoken about it by including some discussion of it in his new book and I was actually surprised by that because I would have thought that there would have been some type of legal prohibition against his talking about the departure at all.
Don’t worry I have no desire to ask. My only thought would be is that if anything ever “blew up” is that I live long enough to see it.
August 11th, 2008 at 5:26 pm
I was furious when I read it. There is no way he wrote it. I wondered what they threatened him with or did to him psychologically to get him to sign it.
They tried the same thing with me. Kenneth Maresco called me before my last meeting as a CG leader and told me what to say. I refused. It told him that I had no problem with stepping down, but that I disagreed with both the justification and the process for my dismissal, and there was no way I was going to stand in front of people I loved and lie to them. Well, that caused a crisis, and the next meeting was canceled while everyone wondered what was going on. I had to have a meeting with Kenneth and Grant to work out a statement that we were both comfortable with. How ridiculous was that? I’m telling you, unless SGM members start to stand up to the manipulation and abuse, it’s going to continue and get even worse.
August 11th, 2008 at 5:35 pm
Kenneth and CJ’s brother in law are quite the pair.
Former-give it a year, max.
SGM is 5 years ahead of where I thought they were when I started this blog in June.
They became long ago what I was trying to prevent.
I’m naive.
August 11th, 2008 at 5:39 pm
Greg-
Have you posted your story somewhere? If so-I think I missed it.
Thanks-MM
August 11th, 2008 at 5:41 pm
musicman-I’ll look for it. It’s probably is one of the past comments that I need to manually restore.
August 11th, 2008 at 5:43 pm
Kenneth was the real control freak. At least in this case, Grant mediated my battle with Kenneth at my request and eventually had Kenneth apologize. I worked with Grant for many years, and he was always kind to me. Yes, he could have done more, but within the limits of what he was able to do he helped me.
August 11th, 2008 at 5:45 pm
Yes, I posted it in the Wednesdays category which could not be completely restored
August 11th, 2008 at 5:46 pm
Musicman-just restored Greg’s story. July 15 under “Your Story”-tab on the top of the page.
August 11th, 2008 at 5:50 pm
Thanks!
August 11th, 2008 at 6:00 pm
Jim:
I will always be grateful to SGM for introducing me to reformed theology in more deeper way (but they were not exclusively responsible because some of the credit goes to John Piper’s series “The Swans are not silent”).
For years I was a very committed member and ten years ago If you had told me that I would be reading and sometimes posting to a blog that was “critical” of SGM I would have told you were crazy. I would probably have been one of the people telling you that you were slanderous.
But during the years and months leading up to our departure, I can recall thinking over and over that this denomination is not what I thought it was and that these guys are not being honest with the rank and file membership amd that something is seriously wrong here.
Reading your words just reminds me of how sad I am that SGM is not what it appears to be.
August 11th, 2008 at 6:01 pm
Wow… this is all very eye opening.
When did this happen with Larry?
August 11th, 2008 at 6:03 pm
Penny:
I believe it all happened in 1998.
August 11th, 2008 at 6:33 pm
Summer:
</blockquote>
One thing I find pretty much across the board in SGM is that no one seems to be a Berean. No one seems to want to find anything out for themselves. They just listen to what everybody else says. And they really don’t “think the best” even though they preach it all day long.
There are rivers of kool-aid.</blockquote>
What you say is sad but true. Of course the culture, especially the leaders, don’t want people that question and will at least some of the time remove people that question. As has been put before, the group appeals to the Catholic mentality of don’t question leadership especially the Pope.
Despite your feelings on Reformed theology, from what I have seen, SGM moved to Reformed theology in a slow and secretive way. They weren’t transparent with their members that they were moving this way. But then as was just said, their general membership are not of people who study for themselves and decide things; they take and believe whatever they are taught.
August 11th, 2008 at 7:17 pm
Steve:
I tend to agree with you that SGM’s move to reformed theology was very slow and calculated. I remember that CJ gave a message at a Celebration conference on the book of Job and suffering (I think it may have been in 1993 or 1994 and by the way I still think it was actually a pretty good mesage)) which placed heavy emphasis on the sovereignty of God and as I look back years later I tend to mark the above years as point when an observant listener could see the change starting. I recall also during those years that you could rarely hear a message from Dave Harvey without multiple references to “the reformers”. There was never a full explanation about the change, why it was made or the process of how the change was made.
On the other hand, I recall reading an article in Soverign Grace Magazine which attempted to explain the migration to reformed theology and I am pretty sure I recall reading that even back in the early years of SGM CJ was always reading the Puritans and that Brent has always been a strong reformed believer. If the foregoing is true, then:
1. If CJ was always reading the Puritans and other reformed literature and Brent was always reformed, then why was the denomination not described as such in the eighties?
2. Was Dave Harvey’s having attended Westminster Semiary the catalyst that finally caused SGM to make a public declaration of allegiance to reformed?
3. If Brent is strongly reformed, than why does the home page of his new website have such a weak description (in my view) of what it means to be reformed? (here is what is says: “Reformed: We believe that the bible is God’s authoritative and all sufficient word”. Being refromed is a bit more than just affirming the sufficiency of scripture would you not say?
4. Given that SGM is now reformed, does anybody ever wonder it continues to exist or said it another way, what does SGM offer that a reformed person could not get from either a PCA or reformed baptist church?
August 11th, 2008 at 8:14 pm
Former-
This how I remember the early 90’s-
PDI/SG was heavily influenced by the Vineyard movement, sang many of the Vineyard praise songs at Celebration, and CJ fully embraced the Toronto blessing movement for at least 2 years. At one point PDI/ SG churches even distributed a position paper from the Vineyard board of directors concerning some of the concerns being raised by the “Toronto Blessing”.
John Wimber of the Vineyard offered some apologetics for some of the stranger manifestations that were extra-biblical. Most of his defense for allowing these to occur were drawn from Jonathan Edwards and his books on Revival and Religious Affections. It was during this period that I began to hear more and more SG leaders refer to the writings of the Puritans, though not exclusively. Gorden Fee was another who was quoted (Fee is an Assemblies of God NT scholar).Anyway-when things got too controversial surrounding any association with Vineyard (many Christian radio and magazines were highly critical) -SG began to move away from anything Vineyard, but they did seem to move more into hard core Puritan writers like John Owens and Piper’s books on Evangelism.
I don’t think Dave Harvey went to Westminster until PDI/SG began it’s public shift towards Reformed theology. Maybe as late as ‘95 or ‘96 ?
As for Brent-I find it hard to believe that he’s always been Reformed, as late as 1998, I heard from PC students that Brent freely admitted he wasn’t sure about Perseverance of the saints (ie whether a Christian can lose their Salvation) and said so out loud at different Pastor’s college sessions. I also heard others say that he also would say he wasn’t a five point Calvinist.
Well, there’s a few thoughts on it-for what it’s worth.
Peace-MM
August 11th, 2008 at 8:58 pm
Greg’s post August 11th, 2008 at 2:25 pm of the process of Larry’s departure is about dead on with one detail I’d like to add. Larry had as much to do with calling Bill and Doris back from Manila, and the corresponding closing of the Manila church, as any of the rest of the then PDI leadership team.
After my departure from CLC I had the great privilege of meeting Bill and Doris Kellers and spending substantial time with them, discussing in depth and detail their ouster from CLC/PDI. Their story is like so many others here, and all the more revealing because at the center is Larry himself.
When I wrote my initial versions of Blight in the Vineyard Larry T got one of the copies and Bill Kellers got one… and now that I think about it Chris Glass got one. I spoke at length to all of those men about the content of their specific interactions with the PDI leadership. I initially spoke to Larry and his wife on the phone and then had three for four subsequent conversations in person. We talked at length about his departure from PDI. Larry told me he was asked to sign the letter that was distributed: he didn’t write it.
As for the whole apostolic covering/oversight doctrine being perpetrated on the body… I frankly think Larry’s vanishing act is part and parcel of its implicit fraud. Without fail the doctrine obligates folk to the covering, for some indispensable spiritual government, but the coverer has no obligation to any outcome to the people he covers. Who was it in a previous post (Steve?) that pointed out Larry is taking apostolic credit for churches planted during his days at PDI? Where is Larry in all his apostolic glory waging the good fight for those he covered?
Oh where, oh where has Larry Tomczak gone
Oh where, oh where can he be
With his ears cut short and reconciled Che Ahn
Oh where, oh where can they be?
(And for those of you who have asked about a publishing date for Blight in the Vineyard: getting free of the Myths and Tyrannies of Sovereign Grace Ministries… The answer is I don’t know. God tells me to publish but he also tells me to be patient. So… I am resting in the fact that at some time (soon?) it will hit the book stands.)
August 11th, 2008 at 9:05 pm
John:
Whatever happend to Chris Glass? It seemed that before Grant Layman took over the your ministry at CLC, Chris was very visible and seemed to be up and coming and then “poof” he was no more. A familiar story.
August 11th, 2008 at 9:16 pm
Chris Glass… see here is the thing… I honestly don’t remember enough of our conversation to be confident in details. But I remember enough that you could cut and past our stories into his and you’d have the gist of it. He and his wife left under bad terms. I met with him once (maybe twice) after he’d read a copy of Blight… we traded stories. If I can keep track of the nepotism… he is married to ??? a sister of Carolyn Mahaney? (someone help me if I’m mistaken) So, there was some intense family pressure that I think took him back. I heard some months later that he’d returned to SGM and it was my understanding he was back in leadership. Beyond that I don’t know.
August 11th, 2008 at 9:38 pm
John:
Is it possible to get a copy of your book or a few chapters of it? I have never heard of it but would be interested in seeing it.
August 11th, 2008 at 10:02 pm
Musicman, your summary fits with my recollections as well. I sat in CG with Chris Glass upon his return–he seemed very chastened, very rueful, but I don’t know the details at all. He married Grant’s wife’s sister.
Coming in 1986, I found Larry’s visits to be very odd. CLC would go rockstar wild over him–and his messages were filled with namedropping about this celebrity or that one with big promises of “our great destiny”. Now that I’m on this side, I see that CJ gets this same response.
I remember at the 10th anniversary dinner/building fund kick-off that there was a skit in which Kenneth Maresco played Larry–and Grant maybe played CJ (there was a great hair miracle joke in the skit). I always wondered how it must have felt for Kenneth to have Larry leave–he seemed to have been groomed as Larry’s next in line–and then Larry was out.
August 12th, 2008 at 9:57 am
John,
My understanding is that Brent is a 4 pointer. This might have changed.
At a Celebration in Florida, Brent preached the 4 points from John 6, leaving out the “L”, which isn’t in the text.
I know that he taught his own view of the ordo salutis at the PC, which I think you told me was an obscure, historical view. It was presented as ‘Brent’s view”.
August 12th, 2008 at 10:00 am
former,
I’ve asked John Immel to place a link on his page, to solicit financial support to publish his book.
John was underwhelmed by my suggestion
August 12th, 2008 at 10:03 am
Jim and John:
I understand that CJ requires all SGM pastors to be at least three point Calvinists. Any confirmation on this point?
August 12th, 2008 at 10:06 am
Former,
I’m not sure where CJ draws the line. I had a Florida sr p tell me he was a 3 point calvinist.
I think my response was along the lines of-”is there such a thing?”
August 12th, 2008 at 10:07 am
ordo salutis!! ??
OH these big words… making my head hurt.
>snicker<
August 12th, 2008 at 10:20 am
John,
Do you recall Brent’s view and it’s history?
Maybe post the 2 major views and then add Brent’s for contrast?
August 12th, 2008 at 10:25 am
John,
Thank you for not mocking my new gravatar. I posted on PP yesterday (starting a small war about Bono), and was immediately told that I look like Ken Copeland!
I think you should change your gravatar to that picture of you in front of the Thomas Kinkade painting!
August 12th, 2008 at 10:40 am
Now that you mention it you do look like Kenneth Copeland but do you have a private jet?
August 12th, 2008 at 10:58 am
hehe… you know… you could do worse looking like Kennith Copeland … he’s 70+ and looks really good … maybe those faith folk are onto something.
And I’m getting lost in the acronyms… PP?? where is this war?
and leave my Thomas Kincade pic alone. I’ve been told I’m pretty cute standing infront of that picture … that belongs to my mother!!!
and no I’m not blogging out of her basement
August 12th, 2008 at 11:20 am
Sorry-phoenix preacher.
Ok-I thought we were all friends here. I’m putting the castle back up
John, it’s a head shot-no one will see your under-roos.
August 12th, 2008 at 11:50 am
Jim,
I’m your friend! Put your picture back!
August 12th, 2008 at 11:55 am
What am I missing… I’ve never seen anything but the castle… I feel soooo left out
August 12th, 2008 at 12:00 pm
John,
It’s good to clear your cache and dump cookies every once in a while
August 12th, 2008 at 12:24 pm
Where’s you with the TK pic, John? I haven’t seen that one.
Jim, keep your pic. It’s very nice! And you can stop saying you’re an old man now, lol!
August 12th, 2008 at 12:53 pm
Well, I’ll be 50 this year. I don’t think old, but I feel old.
Old is a good thing in my book. I hope to be old for another 30-40 years
August 12th, 2008 at 1:06 pm
ahhhh…. I see said the optician….. You are kinda cute Jim… I see why she likes you.
: )
August 12th, 2008 at 1:11 pm
If I only had a Kinkade painting as a backdrop.
If you saw us together, you would have no earthly idea “why she likes me”.
August 12th, 2008 at 2:18 pm
Now i’ve got folks emailing me about his Thomas Kincade picture…. Tnanks Jim!
Now I gotta post it so folk can see it. dangit!
August 12th, 2008 at 2:26 pm
I’ll be happy to it email it to anyone upon request.
Just here to serve, brother….
August 12th, 2008 at 3:13 pm
Just post it and let every body toss their tomatos or send phone number (those of you who are blog groupies) ahahahahahahahah
Just messing. I’m saving my self for my mate, match, and partner in life.
yeee hawww!
August 12th, 2008 at 3:20 pm
I was kidding. I have a 1 TB hard drive with an external 750 GB, but I just couldn’t find the room to save your pic.
August 12th, 2008 at 4:12 pm
Sorry John, but can’t help but picture a slimy “individual” (in his parent’s basement, perhaps) when I see your oft used “>snicker<”.
August 12th, 2008 at 4:14 pm
Doris is Larry’s wife, not sister. I believe Mrs. Glass and Mrs. Laymen are sisters.
August 12th, 2008 at 4:18 pm
No one has mentioned another mass mailing, which put an end to the ‘public’ church phone directory at CLC. A family who would have made use of this site, had it been available at the time, mailed a letter out to the whole church (at their expense, I presume). We were told not to read it. Anyone still have that one?
August 12th, 2008 at 4:19 pm
Kali:
Grant and Carolyn are siblings. I believe that Grant is married to Erik Tammaru’s sister. Anybody remember Erik?
August 12th, 2008 at 4:21 pm
Yes. What I said and what you said is true.
August 12th, 2008 at 4:24 pm
You are right… Bill’s wife is named Margaret. Sorry… “slimy” brain cramp.
August 12th, 2008 at 4:30 pm
Somebody should summarize all of the intermarriages at CLC
August 12th, 2008 at 4:49 pm
Erik had his own church in Europe for many years, then returned Stateside a few years ago and was on staff at Che Ahn’s church in Pasadena. Now, he’s back home in Montgomery Co., MD, as pastor of River Church:
http://www.riverchurchmd.com/welcome.html
August 12th, 2008 at 4:52 pm
This is nothing new to you all, but there is a long list of mysterious endings to ministries at CLC.
To name a couple more: We were doing pro-life work and picketing, suddenly we were not. Then there was a politically active ministry, suddenly it was closed down for no apparent reason. Anyone have any insight into these happenings?
I too, remember feeling something was quite wrong about Larry’s letter. Also, the Chris case was very sad. He had to get up and make it all seem alright.
August 12th, 2008 at 4:58 pm
Formersgmer,
Summarizing all the intermarriages within clc would be next to impossible! HA! Especially now that all the old people’s kids are growing up and marrying each other. Sooner or later, they will all be related.
August 12th, 2008 at 5:01 pm
A friend and I visited with Erik and Chrissy while they were in Europe and they were very disappointed with SGM and the lack of support they received for their European work. They went with the understanding that SGM would be supporting them I think both financially and from an oversight perspective but a few years into the work Steve Shank informed them that SGM would not longer be providing support.
Its very sad now when I see how SGM trumpets its current cross cultural work but knowing that Erik and Chrissy acted in good faith to try to help SGM pioneer in a new direction only to be thrown under the bus because SGM did not have the perseverance to stand with them.
Does anybody know if Erik and Chrissy were ever able to reconcile with SGM over how they were cut loose?
August 12th, 2008 at 5:02 pm
Penny:
They could all be bald with one eye.
August 12th, 2008 at 5:19 pm
Penny:
Forgive me for that last post. It was too sarcastic.
August 12th, 2008 at 5:47 pm
whoops
August 12th, 2008 at 5:54 pm
OK-time to test the edit feature…
August 12th, 2008 at 5:55 pm
Ok-still works. Everyone has 10 minutes after they have posted to edit their post.
Your mileage may vary…
August 12th, 2008 at 6:36 pm
I remember Erik!
August 12th, 2008 at 8:32 pm
So it sounds like a number of leaders and members in SGM have had their extended families torn apart by SGM’s excommunication practices. Couples fairly high up in the leadership, or with relatives fairly high up in the leadership, run afoul of SGM and leave, and the rest of their family stays in SGM. Does anyone know what kind of impact this has had on the extended family relationships between families estranged from SGM and their relatives who stay in the movement? Given the shunning that most people who leave SGM on bad terms experience I am wondering if this means that relatives have essentially become cut off from each other or stopped speaking to each other.
I guess part of why I’m wondering is that it would seem to really cast a negative light on the claims of SGM leadership that their families are so harmonious and wonderful if a number of them are no longer in contact with extended family members, especially relatives who are fellow Christians. I wonder how they can claim to be such great examples of making family a priority given all these nasty family splits in their history?
August 12th, 2008 at 8:49 pm
formersgmer:
Jim and John:
I understand that CJ requires all SGM pastors to be at least three point Calvinists. Any confirmation on this point?
What is 3 point Calvinism? Which three points are they still affirming. I know the 4 point Calvinism it tu_ip, leaving out the limited atonement.
I would be surprised if Mahaney would be that flexible since many say that SGM is in the “clone making” business.
Of course, SGM may say they believe in Calvinism but some of their actions seem to contradict what they say they supposedly believe. This includes how tightly the control children and how they seem to hold parents responsible for children’s salvation when Calvinism claims that God is the one who elects some to salvation. Those not elected to salvation by God have no chance of becoming saved.
August 12th, 2008 at 9:45 pm
Steve,
Most “3 point calvinists” deny irresistible grace and limited atonement. That makes them “tup’s”.
I’ve never heard that being a “3 pointer” is acceptable within SGM, but then again, I’m hearing new things every day.
I mentioned before that I met a Florida sr p who said that he was a “3 pointer”, but I didn’t ask what 3 points.
Hard to believe, but I said something sarcastic.
I’m totally with you on the inconsistencies. Most authoritarian leaders (inside or outside of the church) are insecure. The scorched earth policy definitely points to insecurity.
This is a lack of faith that functionally denies God’s sovereignty.
August 13th, 2008 at 10:36 am
Jim:
You make a very interesting point about the lack of faith and the sovereignty of God. Given SGM’s lack of transparency to the member ship when there are ministry setbacks such as a church plant having to be closed such as Tallahassee, I have oftern wondered if the lack of transparency was less a function of any intentional disingenous but rather more of function of either (1) fear of man in having to go before the rank and file admit that a particular church plant failed and/or (2) a genuine unbelief in the overall sovereignty of God or perhaps its both.
August 13th, 2008 at 10:37 am
w-i-p,
you asked: “Does anyone know what kind of impact this has had on the extended family relationships between families estranged from SGM and their relatives who stay in the movement?”
Just my own personal experience: my wife’s sister and her husband refuse to talk to us beyond superficial pleasantries. We used to be pretty close.
August 13th, 2008 at 10:42 am
Steve:
If I had to postulate I would say that SGM probably affirms:
1. Total Depravity (but this is kind of no brainer given the emphasis on indwelling sin)
2. Unconditional Election (Because CJ wrote a doctrinal position paper on this topic as part of SGM”s Perspectives Series).
3. Irresistable Grace
So that would omit (a) Limited Atonement which is the doctine that most people have trouble with. (I actually was in service once where the pastor denounced it as heresy) and (b) Perserverance of the Saints ( perhaps this makes sense given a previous poster’s observation that even Brent Detwiler is unsure whether he agrees with this position.
August 13th, 2008 at 10:43 am
Of course, how do you affirm election without affirming limited atonement?
August 13th, 2008 at 12:13 pm
Former-
A major part of SGM’s lack of transparency would also be informed by their hyper-view of clergy/laity distinction.
IOW-they don’t have to answer to us.
August 13th, 2008 at 12:24 pm
Former-if we are using the term “calvinist” to describe someone who believes that TULIP is Scriptural, I can see someone calling themselves a 4 point calvinist, rejecting the L because of the “all” verses.
I personally believe Scripture teaches the L, and also think that if one accepts the other 4 points, the lack L is completely illogical.
There is no such thing as a 3 point calvinist. They need another definition.
Of course John Piper is a “7 point calvinist”, so I guess we can define ourselves any way we choose.
I call myself a tulip guy who is not a calvinist, so I’m guilty of the same thing.
August 13th, 2008 at 12:47 pm
Wow, just caught up on all my reading here after two weeks of a crazy scedule. Jim, I didn’t get to see your pic, either. Ho-hum.
Kali,
In the Fairfax church, around 1983 when Brent came to “oversee” our adoption, there was a church split. One of the care group leaders who was forced to step down sent out a mass mailing of why they disagreed with the new leadership. I, then being a faithful follower, supported our leaders wholeheartedly. They told us not to read the mailing because it was gossip, so I threw mine away, unopened. Eventually, I came to respect this couple for trying in their own limited way to warn us all about what was coming. Interestingly enough, a friend of mine did read the mailing, and left PDI a few years later.
Jim,
No one speaks of a letter that Larry wrote a while after his dismembering. He gave my husband and I a copy when we went to Atlanta to see him. It tells his side of things. Since it was freely given to any who wanted to read it, I will send a copy to you. You, then, can decide if you want to share it with the rest of the folks, here. It explains his point of view in a non-accusing tone. Doris and Larry tried so hard to present their thoughts with love. I heard that they did continue to try and reconcile with the leaders of SGM. Don’t know if they were successful.
In my mind, the more documented proof we have of what actually occurred during that time, the better our stand will be. So, if you don’t feel you can post it, at least you will have it on file. Obviously, if you have it all ready, just ignore this post!
August 13th, 2008 at 12:55 pm
OK, I’m going to throw my hat in the ring for this conversation. First, the family impact of leaving SGM is mixed – some could care less, others shun their own. I know that the Tamaru’s have a close knit family and have supported Eric throughout his whole ministry despite differences over SGM. Eric also endeavored to stay on good terms with everyone at SGM.
Secondly, the conversation over Calvinism highlights some ideas I have been mulling over recently. You may disagree, but I think it is illogical to be anything but anything but a 5-point Calvinist if that is paradigm through which you choose to view scripture. It is an attempt at a consistent world view and each idea depends on the others for support. There is a certain amount of circular reasoning in Calvinistic preaching. Have you ever noticed that?
This is where all systematic theologies break down. They are incapable of dealing with the unknown. Scripture teaches both sovereignty and fee will as self evident, but does not attempt to explain exactly how they work together. I mean, how exactly does an all knowing and all powerful eternal God grant free will to His creation?
Christianity is based on inscrutable ideas that are accepted by faith.
I believe in the trinity but do not understand it
I believe in the incarnation, but I do not understand it
I believe in the eternal , but I do not understand it
And so I worship God in all of His indescribably glory
“He has also set eternity in the hearts of men; yet they cannot fathom what God has done from beginning to end.” (Ecc 3:11)
“The man who thinks he knows something does not yet know as he ought to know. But the man who loves God is known by God.” (1 Cor 8:2-3)
Paul taught that spiritual truth is understood by the spirit, and the spirit gives understanding to the mind. (1 Cor 2). Systematic theologies are useful tools for study, but they should never be elevated to the level of infallible truth. Add a system like Calvinism to the a culture of control and you have the current situation at SGM. People have been thrown out for questioning all or part of it. Calvinism is and has been a slippery slope for SGM. They adopted it due their concerns over not being theologically trained and the challenges of counseling people in tragic circumstances. I was told as much. Unfortunately, Calvinism is a maze traps you. Once you climb in, it’s very hard to get out. Why not let people think and debate and wrestle with difficult ideas – because SGM leadership has always been afraid of letting people think freely and express themselves, of any challenge the the culture of conformity.
August 13th, 2008 at 1:12 pm
Greg:
“They adopted it due their concerns over not being theologically trained and the challenges of counseling people in tragic circumstances. I was told as much.”
This is an utterly fascinating statement. So would it be correct to also say that SGM initially adopted the reformed view not so much out of any deep conviction of its biblical truth but because of theological weakness on their part. This actually would be the best answer as to why there was never any significant explanation the rank and file membership regarding the migration to the reformed view because they (in their view) could not go to the membership and say that their pastors lack theological training. From whom did you hear this?
August 13th, 2008 at 1:14 pm
Canary:
If you were in the fairfax church in 1983 there is a good chance that I knew you and your husband
August 13th, 2008 at 1:30 pm
formersgmer,
It would not be fair to name him because I do not remember his exact words. Also, I think C. J. was seeing an emphasis on sovereignty in scripture. Then, with Brent getting his degree from Westminster (date?), the ship begins to turn that direction and runs with the wind. I don’t think it was a neat or planned process, and there was disagreement among the staff, but here is where the culture of conformity is such a problem. Once SGM changes direction, the command is to shut up an man oars or get off the boat.
August 13th, 2008 at 1:36 pm
Greg,
Dave Harvey is degreed from Westminster. I don’t think that Brent is.
August 13th, 2008 at 1:40 pm
Remember that none of the founders of the first church in Maryland in the 70s had any theological, pastoral, or professional training. C.J. is a jock. They are not pioneers, but adopters, and they adopt ideas like they adopt churches. There have been many unforeseen consequences of this approach. I’m not faulting them for believing God and going for it by starting a church. On the contrary, I think they started well. I’m just saying that they have forgotten where they came from and that a healthy dose of humility, flexibility, and gentleness in order in how they should treat people and handle disagreements.
Ok. Where was Brent trained? Before Dave, he was the “resident theologian”.
August 13th, 2008 at 1:45 pm
Jim and Greg:
Brent received his theology from the (I believe) now defunct Melodyland School of Theology in California.
Greg:
Your comment about CJ and Sovereignty makes sense and it aligns with my earlier post concerning CJ’s message at Celebration 93 or 94 on the Book of Job and Suffering and Sovereignty.
Your comment about the culture of conformity is accurate also because I know someone who is still in a SGM church and they sometimes refer to the wives as having a “Stepford” quality and in my former SGM we had pastor who was dismissed on subjective grounds and the pastoral team went all of their way to stress that the decision was a unanimous decision of the pastoral staff but the problem was that one of the members of the staff was an intern who had only been a staff member for approximately six months. Was this guy really going to against the system as the new man on the team? Methinks not.
August 13th, 2008 at 1:46 pm
Bravo, Greg, on your last two posts!
August 13th, 2008 at 1:47 pm
formersgmer:
August 13th, 2008 at 10:43 am
“Of course, how do you affirm election without affirming limited atonement?”
How true. Of course within Calvinism there are also differing views over whether God predestines some to hell (double predestination?) or whether God by not selecting some for salvation by default lets them not be saved and thus be eternally damned. Either way the result is the same with the Calvinist view of predestination.
Thus just if election to salvation is true then limited atonement has to occur just as some being predestined to damnation if you believe God only chooses to save some.
August 13th, 2008 at 1:47 pm
formersgmer,
Interesting that we might have been in the same place at the same time. If you’d like to e-mail me, you can get my address from Jim. I’d love to hear from you!
August 13th, 2008 at 2:13 pm
Greg:
Here is the wikipedia link to Melodyland
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melodyland
August 13th, 2008 at 2:15 pm
Steve,
There is much debate among some calvinists regarding predestination to damnation, commonly known as double predestination.
The issue is, did God actively choose to predestine some to damnation, or did he leave some in their state and choose others as His.
My take, very simply put, is that there is no need for an additional, active work of God to determine that “some” would never be enabled to come to Him, because all are born in that state. John 6:65
This would be RC Sproul’s view-God chose some, and left others in their natural condition.
Piper would believe in double predestination.
I have no idea what Calvin believed, and honestly don’t care. I don’t see double predestination in Scripture.
August 13th, 2008 at 2:34 pm
formersgmer,
Interesting. That explains why everyone in leadership at CLC had to read Williams’ Systematic Theology. It’s a a pretty good work. I still use it for reference occasionally. What hurt me about the adoption of “Calvinism a la SGM” is what did to people. Devoted, long term members were kicked out for debating it, and an obsession with indwelling sin has wearied and discouraged many. Personally I believe that while scripture teaches indwelling sin, the overwhelming emphasis is on the new creation and on God’s ability to sanctify the believer. While at CLC, I really longed for more teaching on virtues: love, kindness, gentleness, patience. For God’s sake, all we did for years was study sin!
August 13th, 2008 at 2:36 pm
BTW, does anyone know what happened to Cliff and Connie Gale?
August 13th, 2008 at 2:54 pm
Greg,
You said it right! All we did for years was study sin. It was so discouraging and weary to our souls. Thanks to Jesus Christ, who opened our eyes to the errors and showed us His unending grace.
August 13th, 2008 at 3:36 pm
You’re right, Greg.
Romans 7 is valid, and important in understanding the nature of man.
But my goodness-turn the page and see who we really are!
August 13th, 2008 at 3:57 pm
Jim,
Even in Romans 7, Paul does not identify with the sinful nature but sees it as something that wars against him. This is why Romans 8 (a tragic chapter division) makes sense. There no condemnation, not because God is lenient, but because we have been set free. Our identity is not with the old nature but with the new. This is a critical point the mortification club has missed. I wrote brief teaching notes on the topic in a defense against the AA disease model, if you are interested in seeing it.
August 13th, 2008 at 4:10 pm
Greg,
I’d love to.
You have my email address.
August 13th, 2008 at 4:13 pm
I think mortification is valid.
But IDENTITY is crucial.
August 13th, 2008 at 4:13 pm
Greg, I’ve run into Connie Gale at the county fair a couple times over the years–they’re still in the area and homeschooling their brood. I got the sense that they still keep in touch with folks from CLC through homeschooling and maybe 4H, but it’s hard to catch up for real at the fair; plus, to be honest, she didn’t really remember who I was (without Gary there). I think the Gales might be doing the homechurch thing.
August 13th, 2008 at 4:19 pm
Jim, I agree.
acme, thanks for the update. I’ve worried about them after what happened to Cliff after he took issue with leadership over Calvinism.
August 13th, 2008 at 10:25 pm
I wanna commentate on SGM pastors pruning the funny flower. So here is my beanie in the ring….
If these guys are really starting to pick and choose which parts of T.U.L.I.P they wanna adhere to then we are very close to seeing an emanate implosion, or at the very least another attempt at “doctrinal refocus” which would be its own brand of disaster.
For me to make my point I need to lay out the Sovereign Grace Ministries algebra. Some of you have seen this before from me, but it bears repeating.
“watch your life and your doctrine” = mentally reflecting + Good Theology = Sound Doctrine = a specific Theological system = Orthodoxy = Authentic Christianity.
Orthodoxy = Reformed Theology
Ergo
Authentic Christianity = Reformed Theology
AND
Reformed Theology = Calvinism
When PDI/CLC made their move to Reformed Theology all those years ago, they did it (among several reasons) to ascribe to themselves the title of Orthodox.
It would take to long to summarize all the conversations and articles that I am drawing from, but through the early 90’s the SGM leadership was seriously concerned about what they considered the general disarray of the Charismatic movement (even though they were the direct product of the movement) and their co-preoccupation on what authorized them to preach. robyn boysvert told me his/their aspiration was doctrinal “Orthodoxy” He said that other theology’s were eccentric, meaning they were not centrist. In their mind Orthodoxy and Sound Doctrine are one in the same. The loose logic being, if they (PDI/CLC) are Orthodox—or Centrist—how can there be any criticism of the content of their doctrine? They then spent the bulk of the early and mid 90s indoctrinating folk into “Sound Doctrine.”
The Re-education started with the Self Confrontation class (which is a Calvinism primer) and was buttressed CJ’s endless sermons on “you must worship God in Spirit and in TRUTH….” and the ongoing message emphasized by handouts featuring Puritan preachers—worshiping God in truth = academic study.
PDI/CLC went on an intellectual purge of any who were unwilling to ride the Reformed Theology bus (robyn boysvert said this to me: ‘this is a Reformed Theology bus, get on or get off’) They placed themselves in the broader arena of Christian thinking and then exempted themselves from any academic or intellectual inquiry.
Why? Because they assumed that they had found IT—IT being the final recitation of all truth—the end all-be-all of Christian proclamation and expression. SGM leaders bet it all on the fact that they have found “Sound Doctrine” which is Reformed Theology, which is Orthodoxy.
So now my point: If SGM has found “sound doctrine” and they have decided that the theological system of Calvinism is that “sound doctrine” how then can SGM leaders start playing with the core of that theological system? And if leaders can pick and choose which parts of Johnny C. funny flower they want to believe, because they see logical errors in the thinking, what does that say for the SOUNDNESS of that doctrine? SGM are the ones who have made the direct equation: academic pursuit is the worship of God in Truth.
If your ultimate goal is Christian Orthodoxy (Christian Centricity) how then can you deviate from that Orthodoxy? And if you do deviate, what does that do for your authority to preach?
When CJ authored this move, he burned all bridges. There is no opps… there is no… we’ve learned some new things…. There is no, well, we might have been mistaken. To “Refocus” the flock AGAIN will destroy whatever credibility they have with the flock. They have spent the last two decades recruiting academic sorts, and vetted them precisely because of their Orthodoxy, into their unique brand of religious elitism. SGM leaders have drilled into those recruits that they are the best-of-the-best because they have “sound doctrine” (and sadly so many other churches do not) They will never survive another “refocus” because the folk in the pews would never tolerate the change, and SGM leaders could never run over the dissenting masses with their scorched earth methodology.
So what is left? For SGM leaders to be even pretend consistency they MUST move with all fervor to maintain the purity of their doctrine by purging all who fail to sustain the progression I outlined above. And that means there is no such thing as a 3.14159265 point Calvinist. There is no body of logic that can be applied to modify ORTHODOXY. Because if the SGM sub leaders get the idea they can pick and choose which parts of Orthodoxy they believe or preach… ??
What is to say that sub leaders won’t choose to fudge something less important. If you are willing to trim a petal or two off Orthodoxy it is a small step to a non-essential like refusing to “submit” to CJ papacy.
Tick, tick, tick, ……. booom
August 13th, 2008 at 11:10 pm
I’d like to encourage us all to put ourselves in the place of others and think what it might be like to find ourselves the topic of blog posts. Full names, information given in private conversations.
Some would not mind, but I’m a more private person and wouldn’t want, where my kids kids and I frequent, and especially not my thoughts or feelings that I shared with you alone, posted on the internet.
I expect I’ll get it for saying so.
August 13th, 2008 at 11:16 pm
Canary, Did the Fairfax cgl mail that out to CLC “individuals”, too?
August 13th, 2008 at 11:21 pm
Kali,
Not that I know of. I think it was an attempt on the cgl’s part to warn us members that trouble was ahead, and to give their own account of why they were asked to step down.
August 14th, 2008 at 12:02 am
We did get a letter at CLC. Just wondering if it was the same one. Greg?
August 14th, 2008 at 12:02 pm
Kali, the letter I was referring to was Larry’s “confession”, which he later claimed was coerced. It may have gone to Fairfax as well as CLC, but I’m not familiar with the one you are referring to.
John, “They placed themselves in the broader arena of Christian thinking and then exempted themselves from any academic or intellectual inquiry.”
This is spot on. As I’ve said elsewhere, SGM leadership are adopters not pioneers. The problem with using Calvinism as the measure of all truth is that once you get into it, it is very difficult from an intellectual standpoint to back out. A friend recently encouraged me not too take what has happened at CLC too personally because much of what they have done has been out of ignorance. There is a certain amount of truth to that, though it does not relieve them of responsibility. It’s not a fault that the none of the original leaders had any theological or pastoral training, but you would expect a certain amount of humility and flexibility given their humble beginnings – which they seem to have forgotten.
A Correction: Bill Keller’s wife is Margaret (Larry’s sister)
August 14th, 2008 at 12:13 pm
At one time there was a phone directory for the whole of CLC available to anyone, with frequent updates. The fallout of that mailing put an end to that. Only people in positions of leadership could get phone ‘books’ thereafter.
August 14th, 2008 at 12:13 pm
Greg:
The “Confession” letter do go to people in the fairfax church because I received one but I think it went to anyone who was a member of an SGM church at that time. The other letter I believe was only circulated to members of the fairfax church.
Its funny that people describe SGM leaders as “adopters not pioneers” because if you remember from the early days in the 1980’s Larrry Tomczak also talked about being a pioneer and, in fact, the cover of the very first issue of People of Destiny Magazine featured the question “Are you Pioneer or a Settler?” which is exactly the same sort of Dominion mentality so prevalent in Maranathan Campus Ministries. Its not surprising since Larry spoke frequently at MCM gatherings during the 1980s and MCM people thought highly of Larry.
August 14th, 2008 at 12:15 pm
Kali:
I think that CLC now has a members area on its website where you can obtain telephone numbers. A number of SGM church websites have this feature now.
August 14th, 2008 at 12:28 pm
There was, in my opinion, a pioneering spirit in Gathering of Believers early on. That was a reflection of Larry’s personality and gifting when he was in charge. Remember “Take risks, live adventurously?” There were several good examples of how this was worked out. When C.J. took over, the whole culture changed to one that was risk-adverse (like a corporation), where being safe and avoiding problems became the operating principle. Remember, this is a guy who considers a trip to Taco Bell to be a cross cultural experience. Ironically, the “avoid problems at all cost” approach is the source or most of their problems. I realize that my be simplistic; its just one view.
August 14th, 2008 at 12:31 pm
“Remember, this is a guy who considers a trip to Taco Bell to be a cross cultural experience”
LOL!
August 14th, 2008 at 12:46 pm
Greg:
The taco bell line is very funny. I was eating peanuts when you post came in and I was laughing so hard I almost choked.
The assessment of risk averseness is spot on because on the T4G blog I think it was Ligon Duncan who made a comment about CJ’s “very deliberate life”
Unfortunately, this deliberation has caused many missions minded people in SGM no end of frustration at being unable to use their gifts or desires to serve cross-culturely.
Someone I know who went to the Pastors College told me that one year at Celebration East John Piper gave a message on missions and was going to implore people to consider the call to go and my friend told me that almost up to the time when Piper was going to speak CJ was attempting to dissuade Piper from making the call.
One of the things I have also found so frustrating about SGM is that even as it has made more effort to be involved in cross-cultural work, the effort is restricted to the senior leadership level. Are these guys not aware that that there is a strong missions history amongst reformed people? Consider John G paton for example. I read Dave Harvey’s Perspectives pamplet on Missiology and I cannot say that he makes a compelling and conclusive arguement for Apostolic drive missiology and part of the problem is that Dave did his thesis at Westminster on Missiology so everyone in SGM is going to defer heavily to him on this topic as the “expert”
August 14th, 2008 at 1:04 pm
Don’t get me started on the missions issue. If you read my story in the “Wednesday..” post you will find out how they handle missionaries. I no longer consider SGM to be Apostolic per Rom 15:20. Their missiology has more in common with the Borg than the Reformation.
August 14th, 2008 at 1:11 pm
Greg:
I had your story and found to be confirming of my thoughts and experience on the missions issue as well. However, how do they reconcile sponsoring “e-teams” during the 1980’s and not doing so now or is the notion of “e-teams” something that is swept away as another discredited construct of the Tomczak years?
August 14th, 2008 at 1:30 pm
Short term missions trips have been ongoing. A friend of mine is going to Latin America on one. What was abandoned was pioneer, cross-cultural church planting. This was in part an over reaction to problems encountered in their first attempt in Manila. What ensued was a deliberate purge of missionaries and mission minded leaders from the Pasadena, CA church. Now, all international churches in the SGM family are assimilations of work done by other men. I know the state of the Latino community in Montgomery County MD well, and I suspect that the Spanish “church plant” will be almost entirely transfer growth from CLC and other existing congregations. This is why the annual “Missions” video always made me sick.
August 14th, 2008 at 1:44 pm
Greg:
I am aware that short term missions trips do still occur but I think most of these are sponsored by the individual congregations and not by SGM as they once were during the e-team period. I fully understand what you mean about the missions presentation. I also got to the point where I could not stand it any longer. There was a video from a few years ago showing Danny and Melodye Jone taking a Cuban pastor to dinner in Florida for his birthday or anniversary or something and they werre carrying on as they were the best friends of this man and his wife was almost too much to bear.
Also, correct me if I am wrong, but was not the church in the Philippines an adopted church rather than a church plant?
I was never clear what happened in the Phillippines other than some vague references that the problems there were tied to “poor oversight” by Che Ahn.
August 14th, 2008 at 1:48 pm
This entire stream has the feeling of the Emperor’s new clothes. What humble leaders, what theological giants, what missionary pioneers! Pardon the sarcasm, but it pains me. This movement was at one time a sincere New Testament church, and I was a part of the ideal. As the years have passed, the leaders have increasingly had to cover up a corporate culture that has become stagnant and abusive.
I remember one Sunday, long ago, when C.J. was discussing spiritual movements throughout history. He noticed that every prior move of God had become institutionalized, spiritually dead, and ended up persecuting the next move of God.. He said the day would come when they would be challenged by the next move of God as well, and may God grant him grace to respond well. I’m paraphrasing, but that is the essence of SGMs sad state.
August 14th, 2008 at 2:20 pm
The original Manila church plant was led by two missionary couples out of CA who were relatively new to PDI. According to leadership, they trusted and depended on this team, despite the lack of PDI pedigree, because of the lack of missions experience on the Apostolic Team. This was, as far as I know, a new work. Not that Manila lacked churches, but the vision was to establish it as a base for church planting throughout all east Asia. Manila was chosen due to the relative flexibility of Filipinos in dealing with Americans and other cultures.
After the team was on the field, there was a dispute over authority. The team wanted financial support from PDI without any oversight, PDI wanted a say in decision making, but lacked the experience to do it.
Miscommunication was a major problem, and both sides felt betrayed. Allegedly, the original team leaders encouraged the congregation to leave PDI, and that was the breaking point. The missionaries were dismissed from PDI, and Bill and Margaret were sent in to clean up, They did an admirable job re-establishing a congregation over five years considering the circumstances.
I heard both sides of the story because I was thinking about joining the team, and I could never reconcile the accounts or figure out what was really going on. You’d think each side was talking about completely different churches. Lack of oversight and PDI’s ability to do it was an issue. Bill was really looking for guidance and never got it. The whole endeavor was poorly planned from the beginning.
OK, that’s not an unusual problem to have with your first cross cultural foray. What happened after that to Kellers, other missionaries, and the whole vision was truly tragic.
August 14th, 2008 at 3:27 pm
Is Bill in any kind of ministry now, do you know, Greg?
August 14th, 2008 at 3:33 pm
Greg,
You referred us to Rom 15:20 – excellent point. Which reminded me that I was told, by someone in a position to know, that the very first PDI “church plant” (the one to Cleveland headed by Larry) was not to start a new work from the ground up. Rather, they joined an existing work, and the original leader got kicked out.
So instead of doing something totally new, PDI followed the Fairfax model of Borg-ing someone else’s work. From what you said above, looks like they did the same thing in Manila.
Then, when the Manila effort collapsed, PDI washed its hands entirely of international missions (until the grafted-in Arizona church started doing cross-border evangelism into Tijuana – or did even they take over an existing work?), instead of doing a post-mortem analysis with much prayer, and working to succeed next time.
Are there any examples of PDI in the 80s actually starting something new, from the ground up? When Gene Emerson went to Franklin, WV, for instance, did he 1) take over something already there, 2) start a church by poaching from existing congregations, or 3) actually start a new church through evangelism? When NCC in Cleveland started the Akron church, how did that really come about?
I’m beginning to wonder if true Pauline evangelism was ever practiced by PDI, because the leaders (even the evangelistic Larry) seemed unwilling to give up the solidly middle-class lifestyle and endure some hardships in order to lay and build upon their own foundation, in areas not already heavily churched.
August 14th, 2008 at 4:30 pm
Ellie… the last time I talked to Bill, he was busy building the Kellers homestead out in the wilds of Merry-land? (To quote a Bill-ism.) He and Margaret were going to live out in the middle of nowhere where he could have writerly solitude and pursue the vaunted title of author extraordinaire. When I talked to him he had little or no aspiration to return to what is commonly called ministry. However, he and Margaret have such huge hearts for people that it wouldn’t surprise me at all to find both of them working outside the local Giant ministering to whomever came by, bagging groceries, and offering tea and cookies that Margaret won’t eat but one … maybe.
August 14th, 2008 at 4:36 pm
The truth about American “church planting” is that much of it amounts to poaching, so SGM is not alone in this. Franklin WV was an existing congregation that joined PDI in ‘86 Is Gene still part of SGM? I doubt a nice guy like him could last long with SGM.
The earliest churches in MD were build by evangelism. I know because I was reached that way in College Park in ‘81 and I began doing evangelism there. i doubt there has been an substantially new work done by PDI/SGM since then.
Bill went back to secular work. I know that he and Margaret were very hurt for a long time. I don’t know where they are or what they are doing now. Maybe someone else knows.
August 14th, 2008 at 4:42 pm
Greg:
Gene is now the senior pastor of the richmond va church and (I believe) one of the members of the regional church oversight team. I guess you could call these regional guys Bishops.
August 14th, 2008 at 5:07 pm
John, what’s the point of making fun of Margaret?
August 14th, 2008 at 6:48 pm
@ Greg: “The truth about American “church planting” is that much of it amounts to poaching, so SGM is not alone in this.”
But they’re doing it better than most – and without evangelism!
August 14th, 2008 at 9:19 pm
???? I wasn’t making fun of her… ???
August 14th, 2008 at 10:48 pm
@Jim:
“So CJ’s back from vacation, which means he has to get back to that daily grind of doing whatever it is that he does for a living.”
I believe that includes a daily stop at one of several local Starbucks, where he can be anonymous while perusing the sports sections of the newspaper(s).
Why is it that pastors – and I’m not just picking on CJ Mahaney – preach about getting free from the world system and from sins that encumber us, and teach that people should stop drinking and smoking – while many pastors have willingly addicted themselves to caffeine, which is another form of bondage that inhibits clear thinking and causes mood changes?
August 15th, 2008 at 2:56 pm
Greg said:”I remember one Sunday, long ago, when C.J. was discussing spiritual movements throughout history. He noticed that every prior move of God had become institutionalized, spiritually dead, and ended up persecuting the next move of God.. He said the day would come when they would be challenged by the next move of God as well, and may God grant him grace to respond well. I’m paraphrasing, but that is the essence of SGMs sad state.”
Good point Greg.
I remember when Mahaney taught on the life of Solomon. IMO, this was one nice exception to where he mostly taught from scripture vs. exhorting.
One the mistakes that he noted about Solomon was that later in his years as a king he believe that Solomon became content or at ease with conflict such as with other kings in the area. He cited one example where another king save Solomon a nice gift and Solomon gave this king something quite small in return. Solomon did nothing to try and correct this situation with the other king and hence was “at ease” with this conflict. (I Kings 9:11-14).
I wonder sometimes if Mahaney might be following this same example of being at ease with conflict and broken relationships? Examples can include Larry Tomczak and others that have been purged from Mahaney’s organization including those who questioned Calvinism. It could also include churches he won’t fellowship with in his area.
I am curious what others might have to say on this.
August 15th, 2008 at 3:17 pm
Steve,
In my personal case, I’m convinced that I was encouraged to leave in order to make the sr p’s life easier. This is a judgment call, as my ex sr p has communicated multiple, conflicting versions regarding his reasons for my “promotion”.
As a reminder, my ex sr p is a gutless wonder. He offered me a “promotion”, which involved a 50% pay cut-why not just be a man and say “you’re fired”?
He similarly encouraged me to leave the church, while accusing me of gossip and slander behind my back. Again, why not be a man and confront me?
The church is not better off in any way, but his life is much easier without me there.
I can’t speak for CJ, but this guy is very comfortable with broken relationships. Apparently the St Pete sr p is as well.
Maybe this is a SGM distinctive that didn’t make it into the promo material.
August 15th, 2008 at 5:00 pm
Steve,
I have felt for a long time that SGM is much too comfortable with asking people to leave. I mentioned it in my process, and they did not see the point. A long time ago, leadership decided to put “unity” above all other priorities and relationships.
August 15th, 2008 at 5:26 pm
I believe the reason Mahaney is so comfortable with broken relationships is that he’s the one who gets to set the conditions for their restoration. In several, well-known situations, those conditions are virtually impossible to meet without prolonged humiliation by the man under discipline, so the man finally leaves.
In order to restore the relationship, the man has to meet the original conditions, just in order to gain a papal audience. Mahaney will not lift a finger, will not change an iota of the original decree. Why should he – he’s always right! It’s always the other guy’s sinful rebellion that caused the break. It’s always the other guy who has to demonstrate humility; Mahaney is, by default, demonstrating humility by “serving” the man to help him admit his prideful, sinful rebellion.
The Mahaney worldview is hermetically sealed. He truly has convinced himself that everyone who disagrees with him is simply wrong. As someone stated on another blog, listening to him long enough brings the understanding that Mahaney really wants everyone to agree with him on every issue, 100% of the time – from doctrine to March Madness to lasagna.
August 16th, 2008 at 12:37 pm
Greg,
What SGM has is not unity as much as uniformity. Like the Star Trek Borg, no free thinkers allowed. I think that the “unity” they strive for is not the kind I see when believers are fellowshipping by the Holy Spirit. Just a wee thought.
August 16th, 2008 at 12:44 pm
Canary,
LOVE the avatar!
(Although a rabid chihuahua would have been quite entertaining!) 
August 16th, 2008 at 1:06 pm
Carole,
Well, I am called Canary, and it’s not easy to find a tough image of a little, yellow bird as an Avatar. When I came accross Kung-fu Tweety-bird, I just had to put him up. Tweety always found a way to out-think Sylvester and not get eaten.
Of course, if needed, I’ll morph into the chihuahua and snarl, bark, then go hide behind my husband. He’ll laugh at me, but he makes a great hiding place!
Good to see you on the blog again, my friend!
August 16th, 2008 at 1:12 pm
Yeah, Tweety doesn’t look very tough… but he always prevailed, didn’t he!!! Kinda like you… so, perfect avatar!!
Thanks for the welcome back… you know how it goes… three steps forward, two steps back… but making progress nonetheless!
God is amazingly good!
August 16th, 2008 at 2:46 pm
Amen, Carole! Tweet-tweet on that one!
August 16th, 2008 at 4:10 pm
Yeah, Carole, I’ve missed you too!!
Canary,
pleaseeeeeeee, no chihuahuas! They scare me!
Check this video out, it is sooooooo funny!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6n5OZhEnZp8
August 16th, 2008 at 4:27 pm
Hi ladies! Nice to “see” you all! I’ve got to find a cool avatar for myself. Is it hard to do? Hmmm … what shall I be. Definitely NOT the chihuahua. I have a friend with four of them. They hate me. Somehow they cannot sense that I am a dog lover. They look cute, but then growl, bark and bite my ankles whenever I visit my friend (just like the youtube video, Ellie). On second thought, maybe a chihuahua is just the ticket! Just kidding. I’m more of a golden retriever kind of girl (I’ve got two!)
August 16th, 2008 at 6:11 pm
Greg:
Were you very involved in local evangelism at CLC? If so, I may know you. Also, do you know John Bronson? Also, with your interest in Missions did you know vietnamese man named Trieu Trong? (I think I got the last name right)
August 16th, 2008 at 6:14 pm
Keeinstep:
Your post is spot on. During our last few years in SGM, we always felt that it was “the pastors way or the highway”. They can never, ever admit to being wrong. Interestingly though, I did hear from a friend of mine who is a former SGM pastor that a few years after Larry left, Larry and CJ met and did have a reconciliation of sorts. Did you ever hear of anything like that?
August 16th, 2008 at 8:28 pm
I believe Larry attempted reconciliation, but I don’t believe it ever happened. Maybe others know more.
I’m pretty sure, however, that Larry’s is one of those situations in which restoration would depend on Larry voluntarily coming back under the SGM authority, admitting to everything they originally said was sinful on his part, and enduring their exact conditions of discipline for however long they they would say is necessary. (Remember, he admitted in a signed letter certain things he did wrong, and that’s what they would hold him to – even though he subsequently stated that the letter was written by others, for his signature.)
August 16th, 2008 at 8:38 pm
and in the meantime all evidence of Larry’s associate with PDI/SGM is completely eradicated as if he never existed. Its quite ironic that SGM would treat people in such a cavalier and disposible fashion because scripture is filled with sinful people who were used by God to accomplish his sovereign purposes.
Consider Rahab: She lied but is named in Hebrews 11 as an example of salvation by faith
Consider Peter: Denied the savior but is forgiven and comes back to be one of the key leaders of the early church and author of two books incorporated into the new testament canon.
Larry did none of the above and yet is treated as a non-person by SGM. There is a level of arrogance within SGM leadership shown in the way that treat people who fail that puts to lie all of the claims about humility.
August 16th, 2008 at 10:45 pm
Ellie,
Okay, so Chihuahuas are cute when they are pups, but they don’t seem so nice as adults. The bulging eyes remind me of Peter Lore.
Gracie,
Jim told me to go to Gravatar.com. My son had to do all the tech stuff, but it’s suppose to be easy. Computers confuse me!
August 17th, 2008 at 10:39 am
formersgmer:
“Your post is spot on. During our last few years in SGM, we always felt that it was “the pastors way or the highway”. They can never, ever admit to being wrong. Interestingly though, I did hear from a friend of mine who is a former SGM pastor that a few years after Larry left, Larry and CJ met and did have a reconciliation of sorts. Did you ever hear of anything like that?”
I am quite doubtful that the two reconciled. In 2002 Tomczak is quoted as saying some pretty sad words in his book “Reckless Abandon” about his departure. This is what is shared in Wikipedia from that book:
He has described the parting of ways with Sovereign Grace Ministries as “an unbelievable nightmare” during which his family “were threatened in various ways if [they] did not cooperate with [PDI/SGM]… A letter was circulated in an attempt to discredit me and to distort the events surrounding my departure.”[14]
Had the two reconciled, I would think more would have been done then there just having a private meeting. Sounds like a rumor that might have been sent around to quiet any remaining questioning. Had they truly reconciled, one would think some clarifying letter or joint statement would have occurred.
You might be thinking of the reconciliation that Tomczak, Charles Schmitt, Che Ahn and others had that occurred not that long after Tomczak departed. In that reconciliation various leaders reconciled with Charles Schmitt who had been excommunicated from what was called Gathering of Believers at the time.
August 18th, 2008 at 11:55 am
formersgmer,
Hi, yes I was involved with evangelism at CLC (among many other things such as Sound and Lighting, CG leadership, and the international ministry). Yes, I knew John and Trieu, – both very sincere brothers. Trieu in particular was very kind to me. Now I am curious, who might you be
August 19th, 2008 at 2:58 pm
Greg:
The sound and light crew sounds familiar. Did you go on an e-team to Pasadena on or around 1991? You can get my email address from Jim.
September 11th, 2008 at 9:36 pm
It’s like a trip down memory lane reading these stories. I know many (most) of the parties very well and have even seen some of them as recent as last year. I was a member of CLC for many years (8 or so?) and probably know many of you who reference CLC.
I don’t even recall how I found SGM Survivor, and then realized there was this whole “movement” of people speaking out about their experiences which lead me to this site ultimately.
I guess a part of me doesn’t want to even believe it’s true given my former relationships with some of the alleged guilty parties, but the reality is that I was a young believer when I attended many moons ago and probably left before things got too crazy. I guess I feel like I was duped – of course, I am much the wiser today over a decade after leaving.
I do remember Larry T’s visits – and I loved them. a close friend called him “Mr Information” because he always had the inside scoop on what was going on. After he was removed (I never saw the letter), I visited his church in Atlanta, and he was a bit unsure how to receive me until I told him I was glad to see him and happy to hear that he was doing well.
I also had the unfortunate opportunity to hear Bill and Margaret Keller’s story first hand. They are sweet people, and they were wronged.
I feel that although someone may have tried to malign Larry’s character, his character goes before him. I also know that he has restored relationships with anyone who had an issue with him as a result of his involvement with CLC, which again says much about who he is.
I guess it’s most sad to see all of the families that were “split” due to this, because yes, a LOT of them are all intermarried.
I wish you all the best in your “recovery”. As was eluded to earlier with some odd reference to good pastoring, what matters most is that we are students of the Word, for the Word is life and God has given us ALL WE NEED through His Word. Pastors have their place, but if they are not leading you to lean on The Word, listen to The Lord and intercede by The Holy Spirit, they are misleading you.
Blessings!
October 11th, 2008 at 11:13 am
Having left PDI after 6-7 years i realized how much Calviistic thought had crept in the church i was going to. It remeinded me alot of my Catholic up bringing of priests and bishops and arch bishops etc… Everyone was to be in submission , not to god but what the leadership said was god. I admit the focus on family was important and “sond” theology thugh i must admit having gone to seminary, its doubtful CJ woudl win many arguements with the 1500 years of theology which does not accept predestination. Many who have studied Romans 9 realize it contridicts other portions of Romans. But either way the extremes of the debate will always be in the minority as theology was not the last commandment Jesus gave. He told us to “love ” one another. I realized having left the movement that theological superiority , judging and excommunicating people was not my idea of loving. I maybe wrong but i think God died for all of us, so i dont believe some people are bad (except by their own choices.) Even if i am wrong, no one St augustine or Calvin and his followers indicate they can determine who is or is not saved. For that reason i chose to love even the peopel i disagree with.
October 11th, 2008 at 12:16 pm
Hi Steve, and welcome to SGM Refuge.
For a good, brief and informal take on reformed thought, Calvinism and their particular implications with evangelism, I would encourage you to read a post by Reformed Teacher at this link.
From what I have read and studied regarding Calvinistic thought and the Reformation, they were diametrically opposed to Roman Catholicism and its hierarchy. While the Reformation isn’t perfect and it may have had some carry-over (in the extreme minority), for the most part it sought release from Roman Catholicism.
Those are my only thoughts and I certainly don’t want to turn this into a teaching lesson.
God bless, and once again, welcome.
…pk
March 30th, 2009 at 10:10 am
Hi Eric,
Thank you for posting here! First of all, let me say how it grieves my heart to hear of your PDI/SGM experience. You and your family’s suffering and your divided family is heartwrenching! My family and I personally experienced the effects of “being shown the door” (and all that THAT entailed) at our SGM church, so I have a taste of which you speak of. Not fun!
How encouraging the “end” of your story is… although, it is not the end of the story, is it? God has much more for you to do!
God used this situation in your life (and in ours) to change us, to bring us to this place in Him that we find ourselves, this very good place of freedom and love… and I am rejoicing with you and for you in that!
I endeavor to lift you and your family up in prayer to our Heavenly Father… for Him to continue to guide you and lead you, and for healing to take place in your family, for unity to be restored. He is a very BIG God!!
March 30th, 2009 at 10:46 am
Erik,
welcome to the Refuge, and thanks so much for posting. As Carole said, what a great ending (but not yet trult an ending) to your experiences with PDI/SGM. I’m sad to hear your family remains divided..but not surprised. I think it is very revealing about the Spirit and philosophy behind SGM when individuals and families are destroyed, and many of them directly related to leadership, as your story illustrates. What kind of fruit is that? It should bring shame to those who are unwilling to forgive and keep seeking to tear down and hurt.
Your church sounds wonderful…maybe you WILL get an influx of Montgomery County SGM refugees…God knows there are hundreds in that area, there are so many hurting people out there, and knowing you’ve experienced much of the same at the same hands – well, it might just be a wonderful ministry for the Body of believers there. I’m praying!
Thank you so much brother for sharing your heart and hope!
March 30th, 2009 at 11:38 am
Hi Erik,
Welcome! I remember when you and Crissy visited at the PDI church I was attending years ago. I’m glad to hear that you are doing well, and I pray that the Lord will bring healing in your family.
March 30th, 2009 at 11:51 am
Erik,
I’m so glad you posted. I have seen divisions in families like your situation, especially the Tomzcak/Malamant family. How sad it made me to see “doctrine” put above love for one another. I hope you have visits from ex-SGMers, and that you shower them with the love of Jesus. What hope and help they can receive from you and your wife, because you’ve walked in their shoes. You will understand. You’ll even be able to help some move on. What a wonderful thing. I’m in CO, or I’d come visit, too!
Thanks again, Erik, for posting your thoughts.
March 30th, 2009 at 11:57 am
Erik,
Thanks so much for sharing your hurt and healing. Our Father takes us through some really difficult times to manifest Himself in us, doesn’t he?
March 30th, 2009 at 11:50 pm
Erik,
I’ll email you tomorrow, don’t want to say exactly which church here on the blog, but it was before you guys went to Austria and you were talking about your plans for a church over there. I believe it was just you and Crissy on a Sunday morning.
March 31st, 2009 at 3:16 pm
Thank you for sharing your story. Every effort to reconcile and keep the family together should have been made. Relationship is more important than control. Isn’t it? I remember one of the first books we were given by by a PDI pastor was ”Authority” by Watchman Nee. Yep, we shoulda seen it then. Authority was and IS very important in the organization. I remember when the missions were discontinued and when we asked questions……. well the answers were not clear. It never seemed right to send missionaries and then stop unless there was a very good reason. I am so sorry you were abandoned. I am so sorry your family was hurt and divided. I understand. It is not good that this mess happened like it did . With all the talk about resolving conflict in those early days there were so many not resolved . I loved Larry and Che so much. They helped me grow my faith. They were kind, loved people and so much fun. I had an occasion to drive Che to the airport and spent several hours with him. I sensed he was struggling. Before he got out he looked at me and asked me a piercing question about my own relationship with God. I knew at that moment he was a person abandoned to God and I came under great conviction. I never saw him again and he left PDI soon after that. I have heard good things about both of their sons. I am so glad for that. Is there deception in SGM leadership? I don’t know but God is bringing truth , deliverance and healing. Whatever is truth will last and God will bless but I think in this time God is possibly bringing out the hidden things that He did not like. I still think highly of CJ but there seems to be WAY to much authority there for one person. Even the one at the top makes mistakes and how is it corrected? I understand authority and Gods institution of men in authority but each one of us is still accountable to God and we can’t be led by a man when we hear God speaking to us personally. No one is right all the time and we all make mistakes. That is the reason for grace. I’m glad you still have a smile on your face.
March 31st, 2009 at 6:20 pm
Hi Erik,
Thanks for posting. I have fond memories of doing evangelism at UM with you and Che. As you know, my experience with PDI and missions was quite similar. As you suggested, none of the overseas efforts were failures. The real issue was that the leaders of those churches needed a degree of mature support and flexibility from PDI that the leadership was unwilling to provide. The recall of leaders from those efforts (and the expulsion of many other missionaries) did more damage than anything else. I’ve heard from mutual friends that you had started a church in MC, and I’m glad you are doing well. My prayers are with you for the healing and reconciliation of your family.
March 31st, 2009 at 10:39 pm
I remember that song, Erik! Do you remember this one?
Go forth, take the gospel
Go forth, Jesus loves them
Go forth, the time is now
The harvest is riping
Go forth!
Wow is that a blast from the past.
April 1st, 2009 at 12:57 am
man..those “oldies” are NOTHING like the SGM Music of today which are mostly about Sin, sin, sin, the blood, the Cross, our unworthiness, etc…
the only song I can still listen to by SGM Music is “Let Your Kingdom Come” because it was one of the few encouraging songs I remember.
Wish I had been around during the TAG or early PDI days..sounds like things were popping then! (and people were having FUN with God)
April 1st, 2009 at 8:03 am
Oh man, I have a destiny. Wow! My husband and I have just had a time laughing and reminiscing over old PDI songs. (He played on the worship team.) It’s sad, but for many years, we could not stand to hear PDI music, even though some of it was very good. So, it feels good now to laugh and remember.
During our PDI tenure, one of our pastors was “sent out” to begin a church in a more northern part of the country. So, our worship team very cleverly changed the lyrics of Go Forth for their sendoff to…
Go North, take the gospel
Go North, Jesus loves them … etc. Funny stuff.
There was such joy in the idea of taking the gospel out to the lost back then. You know, back in the days of e-teams and such. Do they still do e-teams?
How did it become what it is now, at least in some places within SGM, where missions is about paying off church mortages and ”the gospel” is more about our sin than His Victory?
April 1st, 2009 at 8:48 am
OK–get out the tomatoes I’m ready.
I don’t know anything about SGM music, so cannot defend it, but the exerpts from last two songs you mentioned, although they might be inspiring to you, don’t lift up Jesus Christ, his virtues, his glory, his grace, his mercy, his beauty, his sacrifice for his people, his love.
That said, I know you sing songs that extoll the glory of the universe breathing God, but we might wnt to be cautious to not give an excerpt talking about our own destiny, then denigrate songs that extoll the beauty of the shed blood or of Jesus’ redeeming work on the cross.
Just saying, is all.
Ducking now, begin throwing those tomatoes.
Love you guys!
April 1st, 2009 at 9:12 am
How’Dee, Ya’All,
Erik on April 1st, 2009 at 8:33 am ; http://sgmrefuge.com/2008/08/0.....mment-9506
You most graciously said:
“I choose to think that my life is hidden with God in Christ, that I’ve been crucified with Christ and therefore no longer live, that I am the righteousness of God in Christ. He took away my sins – so when the Father sees me, He sees Jesus.”
GR8 Testimony!
Amen & Amen!
I’ze likes dis one:
“I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ lives in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.”
Dats ma favorite.
***
Thanks fer ya kindness.
I’ze likes da prayers too!
Isn’t Jesus Wonderful?
In a little, ;~)
Sopy
April 1st, 2009 at 9:30 am
I’m with RT on this. Very well said.
Erik, as you know, my practice here has been to let people have their say, even when I disagree.
Since you’re a pastor, and a very gracious guy, I think we can discuss this without the fear of anyone taking their ball and going home.
Your use of Proverbs 23:7 is out of context. It does not mean we are who we think we are.
“…my life is hidden with God in Christ, that I’ve been crucified with Christ and therefore no longer live, that I am the righteousness of God in Christ. He took away my sins – so when the Father sees me, He sees Jesus.”
This is completely true, and I’d love to see SGM focus on our identity IN HIM. Understanding who we are IN HIM is vital. Who we are is who He says we are, not who we think we are.
Romans 7:18-20 is extremely important in understanding who we are, but over emphasized and taught out of context leads to a type of naval gazing, very incomplete picture of who we are. We can’t rip Chapter 7 out of Romans and hang our hats there. Paul didn’t leave us there.
We must turn the page. Chapter 8 almost sounds contradictory to Romans 7, but the fact is, both are true!
April 1st, 2009 at 9:59 am
Lord, is someones talk’in bout Romans EIGHT?
I’ze rememba dis! (I hear’s dose “freedom” bells a ring’in now!)
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death!
***
We’se more dan conquerors through him dat loved us.
YeaHooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!
In a little, ;~)
Sopy
April 1st, 2009 at 10:22 am
Erik,
I don’t think RT has ever stepped foot in a SGC and I’ve been gone for 3 years.
I hope you hang around-you’re a good guy.
I think you’d find me to be the among the least religious men you’ve ever met.
Can discuss Scripture without being religious?
April 1st, 2009 at 11:50 am
RT:
No tomatoes here.
I do remember those songs. At the time -and this is speaking more to my immaturity and lost condition when these songs came out- they had all of the emotional punch of me singing Billy Joel’s “Just the Way You Are” into the mirror.
For me, it was refreshing to take my eyes off of myself with the music that came out later. God used a lot of that music during the time I heard His voice calling me out of darkness, so I will always have a special affection for it that goes way beyond the carnal sentiment I had for other music when I was lost.
“King of Grace,” “Behold the Lamb,” and the more recent ”Hide Away in the Love of Jesus” are among my favorites. This is not an ad for our music, just a testimony that it is not as morbid, downcast, or introverted as I’m hearing it described here. Please don’t think I am attacking anyone or getting hyper-defensive; as RT has said, “I’m just sayin’.”
I think songs have to explore many themes; they can’t have the whole of scripture in each individual song. God’s glory is too massive. Some take us to the cross, some to Revelation, some to Isaiah, to David & the Psalms, and on it goes into infinity, because He is infinite. All Hymns and music combined tell the story of God’s glory.
~John
April 1st, 2009 at 11:55 am
Jim writes, “Who we are is who He says we are, not who we think we are.” Absolutely true, BUT Erik, in context, was trying to communicate that if we live in the “I’m a dirty sinner” thinking world (we do that with our minds) then our earthly experience will be much different than those of us who see ourselves as beloved saints without condemnation or separation.
Of course we are what He says we are, but many Christians live below who they really are because of how they think. Our minds need renewed. I too hope Erik sticks around. Jim, could you have over reached a little here?
April 1st, 2009 at 12:05 pm
Erik,
I understood where you were coming from. Please don’t take offense. Like Jim has said before, sometimes words don’t always come across well in posting. No one meant to push you away.
I wonder, if you are still reading, have you counseled anyone who has left SGM, and come to you with the outlook that he/she was a God-hating, heart-deceived, dirty sinner? If so, were you able to help refocus his/her thinking? What verses did you use to widen this person’s perspective? To know this would be incredibly helpful to those reading who are still trapped in that destructive thinking. Thank you!
April 1st, 2009 at 12:35 pm
Erik!!
I am sorry if I offended in any way. I was not trying to attack or denigrate the songs shared, I was simply attempting to express uneasiness about demeaning songs about the cross or about the blood of Jesus.
I did step foot in an SGM church one time, but we left halfway through. It is the only church which our family has ever left halfway through. The hair on the back of my head was standing up and my kindergartner tugged on my hand, looked up at me, and said he wanted to go, since all the songs were about ‘me.’
Actually, that memory is what triggered my thought and my post.
You said, “As you have so long thought in your hearts (or been taught to think), you’ve become.” Ouch. That hurt. I find that to be condemning and thought-less. Dear pastor-brother, I beg you to consider your tone towards a sister who you have never met, who made no personal attacks on you, who rejoices in your freedom and in your fruitful ministry, but also finds freedom herself to ask whether we should denigrate songs about the blood of Christ or about the Cross.
I have loved having your input here–we are all the adored Bride of Christ, and will spend eternity in the new heavens and earth together, seeing face to face what we only see through a glass darkly now. You and I are united in Jesus, let us be united here.
April 1st, 2009 at 12:56 pm
PK,
I sure agree with you on some of the music. For instance check out Behold the Lamb! If the words and truth of these lyrics don’t cause that LIFE living in you to rise up and say hallelujah, nothing will. Check it out:
Behold the Lamb
Silent before His accusers
As thorns are pressed into His brow
They lift Him up
Oh see the spikes that hold Him
Redeeming blood flows down
But look again
The cross stands empty now
And He is risen
Behold the Lamb
See Him crowned with glory
Behold the Lamb
Cast your crowns before Him
Crying Holy Holy is the Lamb
Behold the Lamb
Carrying all our transgressions
He freely takes our place
Endures the lash
The mocking and the laughter
Of those He dies to save
But look again
The cross stands empty now
April 1st, 2009 at 12:56 pm
Erik… yes … stick around. Trust me your voice here really does matter regardless of doctrinal pedigree.
peace out!
The deleterious problem child!! yee haw
April 1st, 2009 at 1:19 pm
I’ve been out of PDI WAY long, so for me this conversation was a blast from the past. That’s it. It’s true that none of those more evangelistic songs made me fall at my feet and worship Jesus. None of them were particularly inspiring back then or now other than as a reminder that there were lost out there to be reached and WE were the ones to be reaching them. The fact that they were EVER sung in PDI is remarkable and was what I was conversing about, not the quality of the songs themselves. Plus any songs that I might have known from PDI/SGM are 20 years old and back then there were a few good ones (ones that focused on Jesus and were not me-centered), but I cannot speak to the tenor or quality of their current songs or songwriters. I know very little about that, other than what I have heard here and through my sister.
IMO, Larry T was the evangelist of the bunch. He has some sweet stories about encounters with the lost (not just Christians from other churches) and how the Lord worked through him and others to touch their lives. I often wondered if his influence was the reason there were e-teams, evangelistic outreaches and evangelistic music within PDI for awhile.
I was trying to make two points: One, the lack of emphasis on evangelism (or a distored view of WHO can evangelize) in some sectors of SGM was not always that way. And two, it is encouraging to me that I can think of and even hum through a few old PDI songs and not have a bad reaction.
April 1st, 2009 at 2:01 pm
Oh, phooey. I guess I don’t get my questions of 12:05 answered, do I? Am I invisible? Can you all still see my tweety on top of the cage? Just wanting to be sure…
April 1st, 2009 at 2:03 pm
RT,
Wing cuddles to you. We all know you meant no offense (those of us who have been posting long enough).
April 1st, 2009 at 2:04 pm
I see you canary. Yes you are still on top of your cage. Your 12:05 post is visible.
April 1st, 2009 at 2:13 pm
Erik,
If it’s excellent, post the link.
April 1st, 2009 at 2:33 pm
Erik, for the record, I’m not a calvinist anymore…nor do I believe in total depravity of the believer….not sure how many people know that here, but I think most do if they read my blog..and they are still nice to me
haha
it really isn’t about doctrine on this blog – yeah, some do have agendas and push their thinkings on others, it happens. But forthe most part, the Spirit is present and the Presence of Him permeates things…people are able to hear the truth, set free, encouraged, exhorted, and many words of wisdom are given. It is a true blessing to be able to be part of it all. I don’t agree with all that others do, but that’s OK!
There is unity here…not uniformity. And that is a GOOD thing!
and I totally agree with you that the philosophy of SGM and our doctrines have been deeply ingraned on many of us and it takes time to de-program our minds and just unite. It is interesting to me how quickly you saw this phenomenon being played out…very interesting.
April 1st, 2009 at 2:59 pm
Thanks, Eric. Link, please. It might help many people who read, here.
G.D., Thanks! Think my kitty is looking a little more perturbed than usual? He doesn’t like all these folks being set free around here. Think I’ll flitter over to John Immel’s site, and give putty tat a little something new to digest. Hee-hee!
April 1st, 2009 at 3:10 pm
Gratefully,
I’m not sure where I over reached. I think Erik and I are saying the same thing. We just disagree on the context and meaning of Proverbs 23:7. It’s a small matter.
April 1st, 2009 at 3:16 pm
Jim,
Yes it is–already turned the page. Peace.
April 1st, 2009 at 3:44 pm
April 1st, 2009 at 3:56 pm
I gotz dis here card taday, and it saz:
“Every time a heart
is touched by kindness,
another flower blooms.”
Thank you for your kindness.
Happy April, everybudy!
Sopy
April 1st, 2009 at 6:18 pm
“Erik, for the record, I’m not a calvinist anymore…nor do I believe in total depravity of the believer….not sure how many people know that here, but I think most do if they read my blog..and they are still nice to me haha
Before the last couple years, I didn’t really know much about the whole cal/arm thing. Because I came out of the RC church, protestant/catholic differences were enough for me – I was too busy raising my family and following Jesus and learning about Him.
it really isn’t about doctrine on this blog – yeah, some do have agendas and push their thinkings on others, it happens. But forthe most part, the Spirit is present and the Presence of Him permeates things…people are able to hear the truth, set free, encouraged, exhorted, and many words of wisdom are given. It is a true blessing to be able to be part of it all. I don’t agree with all that others do, but that’s OK”
Erik, like Julie, I’m not a calvinist, either.
In a way, it’s like PDI/sgm are two different churches. There are those of us that have been there for a long time and didn’t mind the change over to calvinism, and then there are those of us that stayed because this was our church family & either didn’t care about the calvinism or just disagreed and flew under the radar about it all, then there those that left when the doctrines of PDI were changed. It’s not like those of us that disagreed really had any kind of choice or input. And then there are the newer (relatively speaking) members who have known nothing about PDI/sgm’s life before calvinism.
I hope that you stay around, Erik! You don’t have to comment every day, I don’t even post as much as I used to, but I do try to read. It’s been great having you here – your words have been very encouraging.