This is disappointing. Ryan, who was an intern at SGM’s St Pete church, posted his story last week.
I wanted to feature his story as a post, but as he’s using his name, and naming names, I needed to do some work behind the scenes. I asked for an email from his wife to hear her view, and asked Ryan to provide 2 or 3 witnesses. I’ve heard from 3 people so far, including one who gave me a pretty detailed account of the “family meeting” that Ryan referenced. All who I’ve been in contact with have confirmed his story.
I then sent an email over the weekend to the sr p of St Pete, and to his secretary, just in case he was out of town. I asked him if he wanted to respond, and gave him my personal email and phone number. Here it is:
Hi Jerry,
My name is Jim Xxxxxxxxx. I was a CGL at the Titusville church.
I run sgmrefuge.com
A former member of Gulf Coast has posted to our blog.
Since he’s being very specific, I wanted to give you a chance to respond.
You can call me any time @ XXX-504-4542, or bounce back a note if you like.
I asked him for “2 or 3 witnesses”, and I’ve received 3 emails so far, and I’m told that more are coming.
I’d really like to hear your side of the story.
Grace,
Jim
No Response. Here’s what’s sad-even after everything you’re about to read, Ryan is still ready to meet with Jerry and reconcile. Jerry apparently can’t be bothered with such trivial matters.
Here’s Ryan’s post:
My name is Ryan XxXxxxxxxx (edited by Jim), I’m 22, and I was an intern at the SGM church in St. Petersburg, Florida. When I posted at SGM survivors about 6 months ago, I used the name “exintern” because I hoped that a little anonymity would help protect me in my efforts to salvage some of my friendships at the church. The lies my old senior pastor spread about me have pretty much ended most of those friendships, so I don’t have anything to gain anymore by not disclosing my name. So, here I am, I’m not concerned with who knows I’m on here anymore, though I’ll probably keep posting under “exintern” for the sake of continuity.
I came to SGM in 2002 as a senior in high school. I made some friends, settled in despite some misgivings about the church’s lack of missions/evangelism (I’ve wanted to be a missionary since I was about 11), and became a member. I’m a bit of a theology/philosophy nerd, so I got noticed by the leadership fairly quickly. I moved up the ranks and became fully committed to the cause. This all culminated with me being made a pastoral intern in 2006.
I agreed to one year of part-time interning. After 6 months, though, I knew I was done. I was seeing behind closed doors now, and I saw an awful lot I didn’t like. I saw manipulation and controlling of church members. I saw a CEO-like leadership style from the senior pastor, with his supposed “plurality of elders” really nothing more than yes-men. I saw tens of thousands of dollars being spent on silly things like Celebration conferences while missions mostly got neglected. I saw major decisions being made with zero transparency to the church body. I wasn’t ok with any of it, so I started looking for a way out.
In January of 2007, I was engaged to my lovely wife Fallon (who had started working for a pro-life organization). I told the senior pastor that I wasn’t making enough money to support a wife (which was true, they never ended up paying me despite the pastor’s promise to “do what they could”. Thank the Lord I still had my college Starbucks job). I went out and got a job teaching math at a local public school, and quietly started looking/praying for another church.
To be honest, I wavered. I went back and forth about whether to leave or just “stick it out” until our planned move this year. The assistant pastor asked me point-blank once whether I was considering leaving, to which I responded “no” because at that point I wanted to stick it out. I was going through some major “fear of man”, as they would say, and though I expressed many of my disagreements, I never did tell them that I was considering leaving. I was simply too afraid of what they might do or say. Looking back, I realize how sick of a situation it actually was. No one should be afraid of their pastors. No one.
Fallon and I were married in June. Some family issues that the pastors grossly mishandled over the summer caused me to go back to the church-searching process. I was no longer able to talk myself into being a part of what was going on. In October we found a wonderful church and made the switch. I wrote a very complimentary email to the pastors, both thanking them for all that they had done for me, and explaining again, in as un-insulting terms as I could muster, what my disagreements were. The two main issues I mentioned were a lack of missions and evangelism, and my problems with the church polity structure. I thought this was the end.
Our senior pastor emailed me back and asked if Fallon and I would meet with him & his wife, to which we agreed. Big mistake. They met us in a public place, and the assistant pastor came as well. The senior pastor yelled and screamed at us for about an hour, and called me insulting names like “insane”. Fallon was in tears, and we were both embarrassed by the public setting. We left, again thinking this was the end.
A few weeks later, I found out that a church meeting had been called about us. During this meeting, the senior pastor had decided to spread lies about me from the pulpit. He told the congregation that my reasons for leaving were fabricated and bogus, that I had lied to Fallon about my reasons for leaving and manipulated her, that she wanted nothing to do with our leaving, and that they should pray for her. I found out all of this from old friends coming to confront me, including my own brother-in-law, who called me an “emotionally-abusive husband” to my face. I quickly found that I had very few friends anymore.
Fallon called many of the ladies in the church to assure them that I had not abused her in any way, that she was very happy in our marriage, and that she had agreed with all of my reasons for leaving and that she was pleased with our new church. Rather than call me and apologize, people in the church just started shunning her too.
I have not confronted the pastor about all of this, though I think I probably should at some point. After his brutality to us at the last meeting, I’m simply not ready to talk to him again. We’re not at that point in our healing process yet.
So here we are. We have been very blessed by our new church, where the pastor has ministered to us greatly. I haven’t forgotten my desire to be a missionary. On August 14th we’re moving to Boston so that I can attend law school: my goal is to be an attorney/missionary with International Justice Mission and fight against slavery and sex trafficking in Africa or Asia. My beautiful wife continues in her calling to fight in the pro-life cause, working with crisis pregnancy centers here now and hopefully in Boston soon, and who knows where in the future.
July 30th, 2008 at 1:12 pm
Wow!… another chance for biblical reconciliation to take place with an SGM pastor… and another chance blown off by an SGM pastor.
Hmmmmm…. “caught” or “taught”….
July 30th, 2008 at 1:19 pm
Thanks for your story Ryan. Keep up the good fight. God Bless you with your noble calling.
July 30th, 2008 at 2:34 pm
As Ryan’s mom, I find myself weeping all over again, reading what he and my DIl have gone through. Even though I am more than aware of what transpired, somehow seeing it in print is painful. That the sr p and his staff have not responded is of no surprise to me. Any attempts of calm, intelligent dialogue w/the sr p and/or the assoc. p were either blown off or exercises in futility, when we were all going through so much.
Ryan and Fallon, Dad and I love you both so much and we are so proud of you. We are behind you 100% and applaud you for how you have handled yourselves through out …and for taking a stand for what is true and right.
Jim and Carole, thank you for the venue for them to do just that, publically. I think the Kingdom of Jones and SGM have only just begun to fall……..how very sad to discover what a house of cards it all really is.
July 30th, 2008 at 2:42 pm
Patty,
Its nice to meet you and I’m sure your DS and DIL will benefit from your tender heart. Welcome to this little board.
July 30th, 2008 at 2:56 pm
Patty!!! and Ryan and Fallon!!!
Our hearts and our prayers are with you all… it’s very difficult to “re-live” those experiences. But, at the same time, these authoritarian abuses of leadership within SGM has to be revealed and illuminated. Truth is the only way these things will ever change… or be stopped. In sharing your experience, it will help open eyes and promote the healing of hearts and spiritual lives of many who have had to endure these same types of abuse at the hands of SGM and their family of churches. For that, I am so thankful and grateful to you! I know how hard it is to share what truly happened “behind the scenes.”
Here’s the good news… we are free of SGM and it’s abusive lifestyle. We are free to walk in God’s Truth, and live our lives for His glory… we don’t have to live our lives to please any man and his expectations. That is certainly not what God wants for any of us! He is our all in all… not SGM pastors and leadership… to place ANY mere man in the place of God is idolatry. Wrong by any stretch of the imagination or squinting of eyes.
:sigh: (’nuff said…)
July 30th, 2008 at 3:22 pm
They have a consistent policy of not discussing the problems in their church. They have demonstrated this quite clearly for the last year.
July 30th, 2008 at 3:27 pm
How many times have we heard someone say their “Pastor” yelled at them (sometimes in public)? Enough to be very distraught that any man in leadership thinks he has the right to be so rude and mean to any member in his church! What’s that all about?
July 30th, 2008 at 3:31 pm
Jim, I’m so humbled and encouraged by your following of Biblical principles and giving the other pastor the chance to respond to detailed accusations. I don’t know why I am also a bit surprised, you did the same with your own pastor, Tim. But I guess I didn’t expect this blog to become a sort of cyber-reconciliation spot! But I see the plans the Lord has extends (as usual) beyond our own expectations and hope.
I will now be praying that perhaps your role in assisting those who can reconcile to do just that will be made possible through this site. I have to confess I don’t think much about reconciliation with my SGM pastors or anyone else there - to be honest, most days I just think about my own spiritual survival..I guess this just goes to show that this website is more than a refuge, it can be a place of reconciliation as well. maybe even for me one day, Lord willing.
thank you for providing such a place to us.
July 30th, 2008 at 3:49 pm
Concerned,
So much goes on behind the scenes here. When Ryan composed his post, he stated that he wasn’t sure if he was ready to speak with his ex p. When I brought the topic up, he was for it. He really is an exceptional young man. Gulf Coast is not better off without him.
Too bad the ex p isn’t interested in communicating.
Thanks for your kind words and your prayers!
I’d give your own situation time.
July 30th, 2008 at 3:57 pm
Patty,
I hope that you weren’t caught off guard. Ryan and I worked out a time frame when I asked if I could make his comment a main post.
We had a long conversation on the phone, and have exchanged many emails. I’m very impressed with him-you have every reason to be proud!
July 30th, 2008 at 4:02 pm
DB, I thanked you for your welcome over on another ‘topic’….I read and then forget that there are different topics ! LOL…anyway, thanks again.
Jim, not at all; Ryan ran it past me, and I knew that this was coming….for whatever reason reading it in print today just hit me all over again…..
I am indeed very proud…thank you!!!
July 30th, 2008 at 4:37 pm
Jim, Carole, Anonymous, Mom, and everyone else,
Thank you so much for your many knind words. They mean a great deal to me and our so very encouraging for Fallon and I.
The Lord gave me a change of heart this afternoon…for the first time, I’m abe to say that I honestly am grateful that I went through all of this. Why? God has taught me an invaluable lesson through all of this, one that I pray will stick with me: my allegiance isn’t to a particular church, a denomination, or reformed theology. My allegiance is to Jesus Christ. The “dearest place on earth” isn’t a church auditorium, filled with the saints though it may be. The dearest place on earth is in the throne room of God, where we can go in prayer, because the seperating veil has been torn by the blood of Our Lord. May I never make a church an idol again!
Let’s keep those in prayer who are still in the “Kingdom of the Blind”. There are many young interns, like I was, who either haven’t opened their eyes, or whose mouths have been shut by fear. As we pray, we can trust that God has the best interest all of our friends in SGM in mind. God is in control, as some old Christian singer my Mom listens to likes to belt out
July 30th, 2008 at 4:42 pm
Ryan,
Well said.
Except-Twila is my age.
That would make her young, like me.
July 30th, 2008 at 5:16 pm
Hahahahahahhahahahahahahaha!!!!
Jim… What Ryan just said to you re: Twila is the equivalent of me getting “ma’amed!”
Hahahah! (btw… Jim is MUCH older than I am! MUCH!!)
July 30th, 2008 at 5:22 pm
Sort of the opposite of me getting carded, huh?
July 30th, 2008 at 5:25 pm
DB… yep!
July 30th, 2008 at 5:35 pm
Carole, thank you and amen, to your post #5.
CDhost…you are right, they have a consistent policy in not discussing problems in their church…because from their perspective there is no problem—it’s simply their way or the highway, no discussion necessary.
Canary, yes, distraught is a good word…..a ‘pastor’ yelling and screaming at one of his sheep. Hmmm…professional, godly, pastoral communication….NOT.
Concerned, I agree, it is really terrific the way that this has become a place of offering reconciliation. Unfortunately, I don’t think it will happen unless an incredible revival happens among the SGM leadership. Not impossible for God, of course….but short of that, I don’t think it will happen. I will pray for your spiritual revival…for your healing….my heart goes out to you.
Ok, crying again, this time so moved by my son….all I can say is Amen, and Amen and …..watch who you’re calling old!
July 30th, 2008 at 7:15 pm
Ryan said,
“My allegiance is to Jesus Christ. The ‘dearest place on earth’ isn’t a church auditorium, filled with the saints though it may be. The dearest place on earth is in the throne room of God, where we can go in prayer, because the seperating veil has been torn by the blood of Our Lord.”
For this very reason, to learn this very lesson that can NEVER be taken away from me, now I too am grateful for my PDI experience (and others like it). I have pounded this Truth into my children, so hopefully they will never have to go through what we all have experienced. Thank you again for your courage to tell your story and your heart that hopes for reconciliation.
Patty,
It is painful to relive these stories. How much more so when it is not only you, but your son and daughter-in-law as well. Blessings to you! BTW, that old lady Twila is one of my personal favorites. The other day my daughter said that if it wasn’t for Twila and C.S. Lewis, she’s not sure if she’d still be saved! (She was joking, but that was her way of expressing how much those two have impacted her life.)
Jim and Carole,
We continue to hope and pray with you for some spark from SGM toward reconciliation. I agree with Concerned, it is very moving to see how serious you are in reaching not only the wounded, but SGM leadership as well. You truly are peacemakers.
July 30th, 2008 at 10:06 pm
Thanks Gracie!
July 30th, 2008 at 11:43 pm
Gracie, you are so right…hurt me, ok, hurt my kids…that’s another story.
Yep, many a time that old gal Twila has reminded me that “God is in control” !!!
July 31st, 2008 at 12:08 am
http://www.christianmusiclight.....ecover.jpg
Ahem….does this look like an OLD lady?
July 31st, 2008 at 12:17 am
Ellie, I knew you would have something to say about Twila!! LOL!
July 31st, 2008 at 12:28 am
OK, according to wikipedia, Ms. Paris began her illustrious career in 1981…a full four years before I was born. She is also about six months older than my “phenomenal” mom (to use an Eric Simmons word…heh, sorry, I just read John’s latest at spiritual tyranny and I’m still chuckling to myself)
In my book, that gets the “o” word applied to you every time
July 31st, 2008 at 7:24 am
She would fall into the, “well preserved” category.
July 31st, 2008 at 7:46 am
LOL….she is indeed well preserved…much more so than me!
July 31st, 2008 at 1:17 pm
Hey Patty – do something about that whippersnapper.
Gracie, NObody picks on Twila when I’m around and doesn’t get called on it, lolol!
Quoting from an anonymous poster on another blog found in googleland:
“Old” and “age” are two different things. The two are completely separate.
As admitted, I have ‘old’ days. As ***** points out in many posts, he meets alot of Young People in their later years.
I have NEVER been ashamed to say my age in years. But, I am sometimes sadden to see folks my age start to give up on life and finally reach a state of giving up the thrill of living. That is my definition of Old. It cannot be measured in Years. It is found in the mind. Some of the ‘Oldest’ people I have ever seen have reached it at quite an early age.
July 31st, 2008 at 3:00 pm
To add to the wisdom above me, age is relatively relative.
40 is the new 30, etc. is true. Think about your own grandparents (go dig up some photos,) and at least mine look old, really *old* when they were my age. My mom looks better than my grandparents and I, to run the risk of vanity, look better than she did at my age.
In a large sense, we get to live two lifetimes. I, personally, want to make the best of that fact.
July 31st, 2008 at 3:03 pm
Since we are talking about OLD? Can somebody tell me when one gets inducted to the Enlightened Geriatric Club… The one where you’re right, just because you’re old? I asked robin boysvert some years ago that question… and he still hasn’t answered me.
I feel so lost!!!
July 31st, 2008 at 3:07 pm
Hehe…guess I’ll never get old…cause I am very rarely right.
July 31st, 2008 at 3:26 pm
RE #12:
“my allegiance isn’t to a particular church, a denomination, or reformed theology. My allegiance is to Jesus Christ. The “dearest place on earth” isn’t a church auditorium, filled with the saints though it may be. The dearest place on earth is in the throne room of God, where we can go in prayer, because the separating veil has been torn by the blood of Our Lord. May I never make a church an idol again!”
Precious wisdom.
July 31st, 2008 at 3:40 pm
The trick is to never actually grow up in the first place.
July 31st, 2008 at 3:59 pm
I don’t wanna grow up, I’m a Toys R’ Us kid.
A million toys to choose from, that I can play with.
From bikes to trikes and video games,
its the biggest toy stor there is. GEE WIZ!
I don’t wanna grow up, cuz baby if I did….
I wouldn’t be a toys r’ us kid!
July 31st, 2008 at 10:24 pm
Sorry folks, I just can’t let you go around redefining words to make yourselves feel better. We all left that, remember?
OLD: (used especially of persons) having lived for a relatively long time or attained a specific age
Ellie, sounds like “old” and “age” aren’t two different things after all. Perhaps you’re thinking of “feeble” instead?
Twila is getting old (especially if “relatively long time” is relative to the other active CCM recording artists), but I’ll grant you she’s certainly not feeble!
July 31st, 2008 at 10:37 pm
I keep trying to reign in my whippersnapper!
But he says he’s an adult now, all grown up and married and everything! sheesh! 
Travis, touche! Yes, we all did just leave the environment of redefining words to make ourselves feel better
July 31st, 2008 at 10:41 pm
Hmmmmmm… I think it’s rather “funny” that all you young pups are coming on here “defining” old for those that may be… wellllll… just a tad, a smidge, bit older than you guys are…
(Young whippersnappers…. think they know stuff!)
July 31st, 2008 at 10:57 pm
Meanwhile I find it funny that all you… seasoned veterans (*ahem*) fight so strongly against a term which, Biblically, connotes respect and dignity.
(Methinks she doth protest too much, exintern…)
If I were of more the Mahaney persuasion, I might point out that it is a sign of humility to accept even those labels which we find unflattering, if they are objectively true. But since I’m not, I wouldn’t dream of implying any such thing!
I’ll simply wear the “whippersnapper” badge with honor. I’ve now come to a station in life where I’m not the youngest professional in my office, so it helps keep a certain balance in my life.
And “old” was defined in my comment above by Princeton WordNet. I think the folks over there are maybe not all quite so young as myself… but I do not know for sure.
(In all seriousness? To my mind, generally young = foolish, old = wise, and wisdom > youthfulness. I’d take Twila’s music over Jump5’s any day! I’d also take the counsel of a 65-year-old layman sage over that of a 22-year-old associate pastor for the same reason. So while I may apply a certain three letter word to more people here than others might, it is not done as an insult. I’ve been spending my whole life trying to act like a wise old man. Hopefully I’ll get there one day.)
July 31st, 2008 at 11:08 pm
While us old guys spend our whole day trying to stay awake.
I hate it when I wake up in my recliner with drool in my chin.
July 31st, 2008 at 11:09 pm
Although the early bird special was wonderful today.
July 31st, 2008 at 11:11 pm
(did Travis reference Jump5?)
July 31st, 2008 at 11:16 pm
Ahhhh… but, Travis… YOU have defined the word “old” to fit your own opinion!
What does “relatively long time” and “specific age” mean? Methinks it is all relative… depending on whether you are a young whippersnapper, such as yourself, or a seasoned veteran like… well, some on this blog!
Having said that, Jim is pretty old!
July 31st, 2008 at 11:22 pm
Travis, I couldn’t agree more… I mean, I wish I was old. There’s a lot of great things to be said for the twighlight years, even above and beyond the whole respect/wisdom bit. For one thing, those senior discounts and AARP benefits are nothing to sneaze at, especially with current economic conditions. Secondly, if I was old, I would have had the chance back in the day to see Black Sabbath perform live, just like my dear, sweet mom…
July 31st, 2008 at 11:23 pm
I will simply reiterate that “Twila is getting old, especially if ‘relatively long time’ is relative to the other active CCM recording artists.” In such a case the word is defined by objective data (ages of active CCM recording artists), not my subjective feelings (which happen to also be that she’s old).
July 31st, 2008 at 11:23 pm
Twila and I are the same age. Same month, same year.
I can’t speak for her (or Carole), but I’m what one would define as getting old.
Carole has forgotten her age, because she looks ten years younger than me.
July 31st, 2008 at 11:24 pm
dang, I mispelled “twilight”…
July 31st, 2008 at 11:26 pm
In all seriousness… I like the way you think, Travis! And I agree with you. 100%!
Now I have to go make sure Jim hasn’t wandered off AGAIN… the last time he did that, the neighbors complained that he was trying to convince them that he was Batman… It’s tough getting old…
July 31st, 2008 at 11:28 pm
Travis,
You know those grumpy old men who get tired of arguing, and just make a grumpy old man noise?
I just made one.
July 31st, 2008 at 11:29 pm
ex, when one reaches a certain age, one knows when there is a spell check feature.
July 31st, 2008 at 11:30 pm
exintern, don’t forget how the relatives let you get away with napping all through family gatherings! I’m still young enough that my aunts would just come along and whack me on the head with a rolled-up newspaper.
Jim, I think you’re in denial… but hey, that’s still better than being senile!
Carole, if he’s Batman, who does he try to convince them you are?
July 31st, 2008 at 11:31 pm
They all think I’m his VERY young, VERY attractive nurse’s aide.
July 31st, 2008 at 11:31 pm
You guys can argue all you want about whats old and young. We all know who the youngest on this forum is. *takes a bow*.
July 31st, 2008 at 11:34 pm
Hey little bro-show Ryan how to use spell check.
He’s at that awkward age.
July 31st, 2008 at 11:34 pm
Jim, that must be one of those “wisdom” advantages you have…’twas youthful indiscretion that did my post in… *hitting the (newly discovered) spell check buuton*
July 31st, 2008 at 11:34 pm
“We all know who the youngest on this forum is. *takes a bow*.”
Wait. Does that make me middle-aged?! Oh no… I feel a sudden urge to rush out and lease a Lamborghini!
July 31st, 2008 at 11:35 pm
Does that make CJ the joker?
July 31st, 2008 at 11:36 pm
haha yeah Ryan theres this little button with ABC and a check mark under it click that.
July 31st, 2008 at 11:39 pm
haha hey Josh there’s this little thing called an apostrophe…sometimes we use it in the English language.
July 31st, 2008 at 11:39 pm
I think it makes CJ Two Face doesn’t it?
July 31st, 2008 at 11:40 pm
young people don’t use grammar.
July 31st, 2008 at 11:40 pm
OK KIDS. Don’t make me stop this van!
July 31st, 2008 at 11:41 pm
Correction: young people don’t use grammar good.
July 31st, 2008 at 11:41 pm
But Dad, he started it!
July 31st, 2008 at 11:43 pm
DID NOOOOOOT!
…wait, “he” who?
July 31st, 2008 at 11:45 pm
Doesn’t matter, IT’S NOT MY FAULT SO YOU CAN’T GROUND ME!!
July 31st, 2008 at 11:46 pm
I think the reference was to me Travis, but not to worry.
August 1st, 2008 at 12:35 am
:::::::::::looks in & sees arguing brat boys & turns around and runs away::::::::
….quickly!
==:o
August 1st, 2008 at 1:35 am
Hey…why didn’t someone tell me there was a party going on here?
You guys are CRAZY!!
August 1st, 2008 at 4:08 am
Ahem… Ahem…..I find the juxtaposition of this party atmosphere at odds with the contents of the original post.
Can I now be classified as old now given my crotchidiness? (is that a word?)
August 1st, 2008 at 9:20 am
Go Anonymous! And welcome!
I have wonderful news. I just looked up Twila on Wikipedia and found that Jim is also older than I am! Whoo Hoo! This is a big birthday year for you, hey old fella?
August 1st, 2008 at 9:22 am
hahahaha!
Ellie… scaredy cat!… I can’t believe you left us to fend for ourselves!! You let a few young pups chase you away!
AKS… The whippersnappers ganged up on us!… they wait until it’s waaaayyyy past our bedtime and then attack… (sneaky boys…)
Anonymous… crotchidiness?… Naaaaahhhhh… you can only be classified as “old” if you can make the “grumpy old man” noise… THAT’S how you know you’ve arrived at “old”… (btw… I like your sense of humor!)
August 1st, 2008 at 9:28 am
Gracie,
I do this weird thing. I “round up”. When I was 43, I told people I was 45.
I’ve been telling people I’m 50 for a year and a half.
To me, birthdays don’t mean much. I had my big “crises” at 30-it’s been a breeze since then.
August 1st, 2008 at 9:31 am
Gracie… can you hear the “denial” in Jim’s response????? Acting all casual like…
August 1st, 2008 at 9:35 am
To which I’ll respond in that same way I responded to Travis last night:
“You know those grumpy old men who get tired of arguing, and just make a grumpy old man noise?
I just made one.
“
August 1st, 2008 at 9:36 am
Yep… I heard it…
August 1st, 2008 at 9:50 am
Oh yeah, Carole, I hear the denial. Jim, you “round up”, heh? So, you’ve sort of psyched yourself out? Interesting strategy.
Actually, to be honest, I do the same thing, but only to myself, never out loud! I’ll say, you know the big five-O is approaching. Get ready. It’s no big deal. It’s no big deal. It’s no big deal. (I repeat that one a lot). And I’m pretty sure I haven’t shown up at the neighbors trying to convince them I’m Batman. Hold on, I need to check with my husband. . . .
No. No Batman. And no drool or grunting yet either.
August 1st, 2008 at 9:57 am
Oh Carole, I have a few young pups here that I need relief from….sigh…a vacation would be nice…someday…
August 1st, 2008 at 10:03 am
Gracie,
I don’t recall the batman thing-but I don’t recall a lot of things.
The 70’s were hard on me
I’m just grateful that I can still find my way home after I venture out of my cave.
August 1st, 2008 at 10:18 am
My Papaw died when he was 39 – however, he had three kids and several grandkids who were also 39 when he ate his last meal, sighed with contentment, and went to be with his Savior in 2003.
Charles Garvice Douglas – (1905-2003) – teacher, musician, Lion, water commissioner, a prince among men, my hero.
August 1st, 2008 at 10:25 am
Acme,
It sounds like your Papaw was quite a man! What a wonderful tribute to him! (And wonderful memories of him… I’m sure you have lots more!)
August 1st, 2008 at 10:25 am
Wow acme.
What an excellent tribute to a man who lived a good, long life!
August 1st, 2008 at 10:27 am
Great minds think alike
August 7th, 2008 at 5:11 pm
Ryan-
Thanks for telling your story. As one who has endured SGM’s “public display of affection”, I know how much it can hurt to even talk about it.
Peace to you and Fallon
August 7th, 2008 at 7:24 pm
Thanks, musicman. What’s most difficult for me is learning just how many people are out there who, like you, can relate all too well to our story.
December 22nd, 2008 at 5:38 pm
Ryan, thank you so much for sharing your story. We knew each other a few years ago and I always wondered about the truth surrounding your situation. I am facing a similar situation with another SCG. It’s taken a while, but I’m finally starting to see the problems that you were talking about so long ago.
I’m glad to hear that you and Fallon are doing well!
December 22nd, 2008 at 6:22 pm
Future OUtcast,
stand strong in the Lord – the church (and SGM) may oust you, but He never will! You may experience some painful things in the future, including shunning and other unbiblical and unimaginable things, but like Ryan said, I think the Lord uses these things to “cure” us of our fear of man that we all have to varying degrees.
Some sound advice I’ve read over and over to those beginning to see problems and praying about things is to begin developing friendships outside of SGM so that when and if you are called to leave, the exodus doesn’t make you feel so isolated and alone – that of course is secondary to getting in the Word, building intimacy with Christ, and rediscovering your identity IN CHRIST, and realizing it was never in your church, or SGM. Blessings…Juli
December 23rd, 2008 at 9:49 am
Juli,
Your words are wise.
And I’m *still* learning to get my identity in Christ alone.
Still. I realize I’ve been drawing my identity from my grades. Imagine that. When who we are is in Christ, it cannot be changed or threatened. How amazing is that.
December 23rd, 2008 at 3:04 pm
Wow, I’m really sad to read this. Ryan wanting to share his story is really him just wanting to slander further. I’m shocked to see names. These issues should only be discussed between the individuals involved. Anything else is slander. Many facts have been conveniently left out of his letter. SGM is not the end all be all. I know this because I have been involved in other churches. I know that no church organization is perfect. Everyone makes mistakes and can handle situations differently. Don’t throw out the baby with the bath water! I really wish things were handled differently and that the slander would STOP! This is ancient history and if you still have a problem, then go to the source. There is no use harboring bitterness and stirring up dissension!
December 23rd, 2008 at 4:04 pm
Saddened….slander implies falsehoods…and there have been none in Ryan’s post. He has not slandered anyone. He, on the other hand, has been slandered extensively. As time goes by, many others are coming forward and sharing things that continue being said and done that are harming folks, including those underage. These are NOT mistakes. Mistake implies a mis-step that is not intentional in the damage done…..no, the things done by these people and by others in SGM are very, very purposeful in their intent to control by whatever means they deem necessary. Ryan and others have already gone to the sources at fault, to no avail, and they seek to protect others from the same harm. You clearly know not of what you speak…..
December 23rd, 2008 at 4:05 pm
“Ryan wanting to share his story is really him just wanting to slander further”
Saddened, you have the ability to read minds and hearts? Amazing. You should take your talent on the road. You could make a lot of money that way. And to think, we don’t even need the Holy Spirit around with your ability to know people’s hearts like that. Thank you.
December 23rd, 2008 at 4:25 pm
Saddened-
Did you read the post? Jerry had no problem publicly naming names, and stated things that the parties involved (along with third parties) say are not true.
Did you read that Ryan was willing to meet with Jerry? Did you read that I sent an email to Jerry and his entire staff and heard nothing from them?
This was a story that should have never been told.
The choice was Jerry’s. Maybe you should ask him why he ignored my efforts to reach him.
You guys really need to take a look in the mirror… it’s amazing that you feel free to judge Ryan’s motives.
If you were at the family meeting and have a different version of the events, feel free to post them here. I have accounts from 3rd parties who were there. I would not have posted this without them.
Care to give your account?
December 23rd, 2008 at 7:27 pm
You know what. I’m not even going to respond to those accusations. Ryan said himself that he hasn’t tried to confront the pastor, but he wants to. Well I encourage him to confront him with humility.
Slander might not have been the correct word, but gossip may be better here. No matter if it’s true or false, information that isn’t intended for other’s ears (or if you aren’t sure) is gossip. Posting on blogs about this is wrong. “Stunned” was right in what they said about not knowing others hearts or minds. So why post things like this when no one can truly be sure? I hope that in the future people will go directly to the source rather than getting others involved. Go in peace.
oh yeah haha “stunned” your sarcasm cracked me up. Maybe you should do stand up??
December 23rd, 2008 at 8:13 pm
Saddened,
Many of us HAVE gone directly and privately to the offending pastor. There we found out that accountability within SGM often goes one way only – from the top down. In case after case, the concerns and even sins brought before these pastors, as seen by those of us who rubbed shoulders with them weekly (or more), were turned around on us. Instead of the pastors examining their own hearts and actions, instead of them taking a stance of humility, they accused us of sometimes long lists of sins. The wounds and errors that emerged from these “meetings” span two decades. What you see here is the fruit of these pastors’ and apostles’ actions and responses, or lack thereof.
This site has been a place of revelation and healing for many of us who didn’t know the SGM problem was so widespread. We have learned that we are not alone or crazy and that there is life and healing after SGM.
December 23rd, 2008 at 10:43 pm
Saddened, are you not reading the posts on this blog? Ryan and others have gone to those involved, in this situation and in other situations. They HAVE gone to the source. What ‘facts’ have been left out that you are privy to? How are you involved in this situation exactly? What is your motivation for being here and making the comments you’ve made?
I’ll share w/you why I am here; speaking out against cults is something I’ve been doing since the 60’s and 70’s…and I won’t stop until the Lord calls me home. As I’ve said before, all it takes for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing. The evils of SGM have prevailed because people have been afraid, threatened, or cajoled into silence. They have been confronted, they have been prayed for, they have have been shown Scripture…but they continue to harm people in many ways. The time for silence has passed. The people on this blog are no less Christians than those who would defend the evils of SGM…they have sought, and are continuing to seek, God’s guidance.
In spite of all the evils done to me and to my family, we have continued to show love to those who remain in SGM, even though that love has not been returned. Our love has been met with intense hate. That is not godly, it is not behavior associated with Christians. How very, very sad…and yet, so many feel the freedom to come here and shoot the wounded.
December 24th, 2008 at 12:10 am
Patty,
I’m sure that we’ve seen the last of Saddened.
While I’ve given up hope for any real reform in SGM, I am encouraged to see a decline in the walking wounded, and an increase in the walking strong.
I’m glad that Ryan is among the latter.
December 24th, 2008 at 3:49 am
I don’t do stand up, but please look forward to my upcoming book. If I can just get 80+ churches to force their caregroups to study my books, I should be able to rake in the dough.
December 24th, 2008 at 7:40 am
Stunned, I don’t know how well you would do trying to break into that market… after all, CJ and his boys have it locked up tight. (Oh yeah… I forgot about CJ’s ladies with their books that have regurgitated material from Carolyn’s Titus 2 series… “Buy the books, ladies… they will help you grow in your role as wife and mother”… even though the same material is on the tape series you already own… nice way to make a buck or 2!)
December 24th, 2008 at 9:45 am
And Happy Christmas to you, too.
Ryan may actually be hurt by the accusations of slander, oh, yes, he really said gossip because he’s new to this shunning and demonizing that happens to those of us that have not been able to assimilate into the collective.
The rest of us, however, find this accusation rather tedious. You accuse Stunned of comedic sarcasm and suggested stand-up. I would seriously caution you against it for stand up comedy requires fresh material and improvisation, neither of which seems to flourish under the tutelage of Mahaney and his drones. (or was that clones.)
December 24th, 2008 at 10:29 am
Jokes everywhere.
Now you all are talking my language!
Happy Kwanza!
December 24th, 2008 at 6:48 pm
I’m sorry that many of you feel this way about SGM. I think it’s fine to have different opinions. If we all had the exact same feelings and convictions we wouldn’t be called humans. I don’t agree with absolutely everything SG related. I know that as humans we are all flawed. There is no perfect church that has it all right. I personally love my church, but take everything with a grain of salt. I know that they are still fallible. If I ever get to the point where I feel like there are doctrinal differences that are too great, then I will leave. I have had a friend leave the church over such issues and I have never seen anyone leave with such humility. Never have they tried to convince me of anything. I really hope that everyone who does feel “hurt” or whatever you want to call it can indeed move on. We are the body of Christ and I hope we can treat each other with respect, dignity, and humility no matter how we feel wronged. Or how we are treated. Our own hearts should be our only concern.
December 24th, 2008 at 7:31 pm
Saddened,
Actually, as a body, we must only only focus on our hearts, but seek to care for those ensnared by sin. To not do so is the opposite of love.
Even if they are pastors in SGM.
December 24th, 2008 at 9:17 pm
Yes, I agree that we should go to others who are sinning even if they are pastors. Romans 12:18 says “If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone.” Our only responsibility is our heart though. We cannot change their hearts only God can, and our response isn’t dependent on theirs. We must seek to reconcile, but God does not guarantee the outcome. We should not put our hope in something that God does not guarantee. Even so He says; “Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God” Matt. 5:9 God blesses those that seek peace and sometimes this means confronting and then letting God do the work. I guess my main point in all this is: “Does this blog glorify God?” How are we seeking to be peacemakers by writing our grievances for all the world to see? Another way of putting it would be this. I have a conflict with a friend. I feel wronged. Maybe i was even genuinely sinned against. Is it right for me to go tell all my friends about what has happened? I might feel better about myself because i have found others that sympathize, but how is this pursuing peace? “Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace” Eph. 4:3
December 24th, 2008 at 9:57 pm
I am writing as a mother on behalf of young adults who may be reading this blog site… In the reading of this site I would like to humbly encourage all involved to seek out the counsel of a third party with the goal of reconciliation and forgiveness. As each family member, friend, and pastor looks back in the days, weeks, and months and even years ahead, the desire of giving God glory in the process of all this, should be to walk in the Spirit without causing divisions, as well as slander, dissensions and continual provocations. (Galations 5:16-25) The Corinthian church was a mess, yet Paul wrote, “I give thanks to my God always for you because of the grace of God . . . (I Cor. 1:4-9)
I do not want to involve myself “in matters too great for me”, as each of you have much more training that I. However, no matter what Body of Believers we are each in, we must certainly walk with as clear a conscience as possible before the face of God. (coram deo) Therefore, it would be my hope and prayer for each one involved that the enemy would be saddened and defeated as each party seeks reconciliation and that Our Righteous covenant keeping God could bear fruit once again in your hearts on the parched earth. This is our hope in a dying world because of Christ’s work on the cross for sinners.
May your children and generations to come be able to look back at this situation and speak of God’s kindness and mercy in bearing witness and testimony to being reunited in love through the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. This reuniting does not need to be necessarily continuing within the same body, however, it does mean leaving the church with a clear conscience. I do not need to know all the details as many more experienced in these matters can be involved. My primary goal is to make sure that each one counts the cost of each word spoken and shared with others, Reconciliation needs to be framed in the context of Biblical truth.
December 24th, 2008 at 10:24 pm
Jim,
As I have read your comments and responses I see people who feel “wronged” by SGM and feel so much better after getting their feelings out there…I would ask you if this is the right venue for that. I can only say how I feel after reading Jim’s comments on this site and I must say they sickened me. Some of the comments left really picked up my heart but time and again Jim you came back and brought it back around. It sounds as if you do not want reconciliation but more if this SGM bashing. Please search your heart for truth because it sounds as if your past is controlling your future. try glorifying Christ and taking yourself out of the picture and i am sure you will find the heart to forgive these SGM people. Ryan it sounds like you have had a tough time my brother and I feel for you. I can’t tell you how many times fellow Christians have let me down. its going to happen guys. Jesus didn’t say it would be easy to pick up His cross and follow Him and I think I can remember the disciples quarreling once or twice. I really hope you guys get it together and figure out what really matters because if you don’t then all you are doing is hurting more people and causing disunity. I find that after i have read your comments (minus two very peaceful ones, saddened and rememberingwhochrist-is) all you guys are doing is venting your anger and honestly i think its time you guys grew up and moved on…try picking on something less destructive like i don’t know lets say….something that doesn’t break the body of Christ apart.( try looking at your own hearts, i know it works for me)
December 24th, 2008 at 11:58 pm
SinnerSavedByGrave-
I would imagine you’d be a fan of RememberingWhoChrist-is, as you share the same email and IP address. Your credibility took a little dip, but I’m still interested in what you have to say.
Please inform me which of my comments have sickened you and why. Please be specific-who knows, maybe I’m sorry I said them. I AM sorry for some of the things I’ve said here-maybe you’ll find one such statement.
I’d also be interested in knowing why you might feel that my past is controlling my future. That’s quite an assumption, as I haven’t posted about my past in quite some time.
BTW-the Body of Christ can not be broken apart- have faith.
December 25th, 2008 at 2:11 am
Just repeating what Gracie said above:
“Many of us HAVE gone directly and privately to the offending pastor. There we found out that accountability within SGM often goes one way only – from the top down. In case after case, the concerns and even sins brought before these pastors, as seen by those of us who rubbed shoulders with them weekly (or more), were turned around on us. Instead of the pastors examining their own hearts and actions, instead of them taking a stance of humility, they accused us of sometimes long lists of sins. The wounds and errors that emerged from these “meetings” span two decades. What you see here is the fruit of these pastors’ and apostles’ actions and responses, or lack thereof.
This site has been a place of revelation and healing for many of us who didn’t know the SGM problem was so widespread. We have learned that we are not alone or crazy and that there is life and healing after SGM.”
Sinnersavedbygrace said:
“…figure out what really matters because if you don’t then all you are doing is hurting more people and causing disunity”
What really matters is all of the families/individuals who thought they were giving their lives up for Jesus and the church and found out differently when the spirit of legalism controlling those who they had trusted devastated their lives. What really matters are the kids who nearly had their faith in the Lord Jesus ground into dust because of these leaders and the kids who are in SGM churches who are just getting by until they can get out. Some of them can’t fake it anymore and some parents are seeing the fallout. Hopefully, their eyes will be opened to the truth of what is happening before it is too late. There are so many that are hurting all around in the SGM, why don’t you all care about them?? :/
December 25th, 2008 at 8:01 am
SinnerSavedByGrace,
I can’t help but wonder why, if you are sickened reading this, do you persist? If I come upon carneige on the roadside, I don’t pull over and sit with it. I drive on past the dead deer carcus. If you see us this way, why not simply pull away and drive off to another site?
Not so much Stunned as confused
December 27th, 2008 at 2:23 am
Sinnersavedbygrace, remeberingwhoChrist-is, and saddened,
I first want to say that I completely understand what you are trying to say along the lines of gossip and being device. I can say that for many of the individuals on here, that is not their heart. I have shared very little on this sit, but have felt an over abundance of love. Knowing that I am being prayed for by other members in the body of Christ has been extremely encouraging. They have been very nonbiased and mainly just encouraging me that God is in control and to stay near to Him during this season of life.
I have grown up in my church (which only became a SGM church like five years ago) and have recently seen a huge difference in the leadership. I dearly love that church family, the pastors leading (I believe they truly believe they are doing the right thing) but there comes a point in time that one has to consider why the body of Christ is not being encouraged.
I have always done the right things, served at all the functions, and said the right things. I was strong in my belief and followed God with all that was earthly possible of me to do. I was even a leader in the youth ministry, yet after I got out of high school I felt lost. I could no longer keep up this pace of a work mentality (even though it was expected.) It took three years for me to figure out that I was in bondage to my local church and that I had held my church as an idol. It is amazing what happens when you let go of an idol. I used to feel that I would be trapped forever in the area of legalism and how I judged others yet when God opened my eyes I was free. It was almost as if I was born again (so to speak). There are still some things I love about SGM but at the same time there needs to be the ability to question things (like a Berean) without it being called device or gossip.
I will always love my former church family and my heart still goes out to many of them, especially the teens. God has placed a heavy burden in my soul for the teens and it kills me to see them slowly dying. The local church should be drawing teens to the amazing God we serve and showing them His unconditional love. Instead I am watching as they are spiritually dying and no one seems to care.
I guess what my point is, is that no one here will say that SGM or the leadership should be perfect. That would be crazy to say. We all understand that we all have sin and will sin against each other, but when it comes to sheep fearing their shepherds something is wrong. The fact that so many on this site had started to become aware of things in their church and all of us have the same concerns should be a red flag to SGM leadership and something to be prayerfully consideirng.
December 27th, 2008 at 10:47 am
Stuck
Thank you, my daughter for speaking the truth. I am blessed to have such a wise young woman for a daughter. I love you and am amazed at the new freer you!
Love,
Mom
December 27th, 2008 at 2:17 pm
Oops I meant to say divisive not device
December 28th, 2008 at 1:47 pm
Stuck, I rejoice with you my sister that the Lord opened your eyes to your own idolatry of the church, and your legalism. My story is identical to yours in that He also showed me the same sins. I too have a burden, watching my friends slowly die spiritually- some admit to not having any joy, and no desire as before ti read the Word of God with a hunger. They know “something” is wrong but can’t figure it out. So I pray, asing the Spirit of Truth to lead them into all truth, revealing the bondage, wherever it may be in their own lives.
Of this I am certain: where there is lack of peace, lack of joy, the Spirit of God is NOT at work. When I look at the fruit (or lack of) in my brothers and sisters lives, it clearly shows an absence of the SPirit’s leading. They are following man, clearly. But can I tell them that? No, it must be the Spirit of God to convince them.
Some are called to speak the truth, like the prophets of old, and for that I am glad. Some have a word given to them from the Lord, some have warnings, others have encouragement. You will find in this site many with such giftings and burdens – each unique, each being used by the Lord for healing, while still being healed themselves of many things.
Again, so glad you are seeking intimacy with Christ and have a mother who is undoubtedly praying for you! Blessings, Juli
December 29th, 2008 at 2:48 am
Juli,
I actually had read the post on your blog and that is what really got me thinking. After much searching I had realized that my identity had become in my church not Christ. So thank you for being honest and sharing your story!
December 30th, 2008 at 12:00 am
Stuck, I’m glad the Lord redeems in such a way as to bring Him glory – repentance and confession is difficult, but if it means others are encouraged, or warned, then it is a blessing from God to know that He has taken my mistakes and sin and used them in some way – I’m glad He opened your eyes as well..although I know it might have been a long process for you as well – once my eyes were opened it seemed “overnight” but it wasn’t really. The Lord had been speaking to me for some time, I just wasn’t listening! hehe I’m so glad He is forgiving and gracious, I just love Him!
anyway, keep focused on Him. He really is all we need, and when we look to Him to meet our desires and needs, we want for nothing. “The Lord is my Shepherd, I shall not want!” Psalm 23
No more shepherding for me except by THE Shepherd~Juli