As the author of this post, I want to respond to your comments and expand on my original thoughts and observations to help clarify for you the “what’s” and the “why’s” and maybe even the “how’s” of my post.    I want to give this the time and attention it deserves, so it will be tomorrow before I have the time to address it.  So stay tuned! 

First off, I’m glad you’re here!

I host this blog, and my wife Carole wrote the post you’ve referenced.

Please understand that Carole is speaking from personal experience, backed up by 100′s of posted stories, email conversations, and phone conversations. 

I’m very glad that you haven’t experienced or witnessed what we have. I sincerely mean that.  

If you’ve spent any time here, you know that we were in leadership, and have a unique view from “behind the curtain”. Everything Carole described were things that she has seen with her own eyes, verified by the above mentioned “witnesses”. The fact that you have not seen or experienced the same things does not make her “wrong”. It simply means that you aren’t aware of them.

Perhaps your SGC is quite different than the many SGC’s represented by the above named witnesses. I hope that is the case, and I’m very happy for you if it is.

RE your last paragraph, it’s very easy to argue against SGM’s polity from Scripture. The majority of their polity statement does not rely on Scripture to make it’s case. And please understand that we agree with many SGM distinctives, but are greatly opposed to it’s polity. It’s the main song we sing here. (“we” meaning Jim & Carole-commenters are our guests and can sing whatever they like).

What Carole was describing was the functional effects of their polity. We do a lot of that here. I would point out that your response was based on your experience-not on the Biblically based argument you expected from my wife.

Again, I’m sincerely glad that you are here, and would look forward to further dialog. I would ask that you save phrases such as reductio ad absurdum for interactions with me. We have very few rules here, but I’m sure you understand that the number one rule here is don’t insult my wife.

So-please hang around, and let us reason.

Grace,

Jim

As far as #4 goes, we have linked to the leadership’s own blogs with regard to, “modest checks.” The men do teach on what girls should wear.

Regarding #5, my issue with SGM’s parenting teaching was not addressed in your response. In fact, I found your point #5 to be rather confusing. I have a problem with the legalistic approach to parenting children. This starts with their advocacy (at least at one point in time,) of the Ezzo’s. Ezzo classes were actively taught and promoted in our church. In fact, we were dismembered over this issue. Parents were supposed to put their newborn babies on strict feeding schedules that contradict standard pediatric advice. Parents were taught (in spite of developmental incapacities,) to expect immediate obedience.

Parents were taught to use spanking as a primary method of correction. A family in my old church was commanded not to share their non-spanking stance with other members.

Think of the materials that have occupied space on the book tables of SGM churches. Ezzo stuff, “The Obedient Child,” Ted Tripp’s book, even Roy Lessin’s books a long time ago. These are radical draconian books. This teaching is entrenched in SG churches and that is beyond the scope of my opinion.

But, with all that said, I welcome you here and hope you stay and share your perspective. Just be prepared to defend your words.

I was recently introduced to this site and this is my first time here, but in the course of reading the first few posts I have come across, this is one I feel I need to respond to. While I will admit some of the other posts address what I believe may be legitimate issues I have not experienced much of what this person is describing. Just so there is not confusion I have been in a SGM church since I was 12, and I am now 21 I have been a part of this group for 11 years and so I grew up in SGM. Some of you may stop reading now since you have already decided that I am nothing more than a purebred-yes-man. However, if that were the case would I even be here? I guess I will just start by taking each of the points and responding to them. I would like to say that I can understand where you would get each of these complaints. Some I even almost agree with, just not to the extent with which they have been presented.
1. Complete and Total Submission to Leadership:
I understand where this complaint is coming from, many times the requests given of members are quite strong and I can see how they can be mistaken for commands. I however have seen many people chose not to obey these requests and have not suffered any of the aforementioned stigmas. Due to the vagueness of the original post though I can’t give any counter examples since there were not examples to begin with.
2. Serving:
I have a few things to say about this; yes people are asked to serve outside their gifting at times, and in many cases I have seen this grow their gifting, but that is beside the point. In every case a serving need has arisen I have seen volunteers requested first. It is only after volunteers have run out that recruitment occurs. At this point it may be perfectly reasonable to assume that everyone who is gifted, and desires to serve in that area has already volunteered and more personnel are needed. It is also reasonable to assume that you may not be asked to serve in the area you would like to simply because it is not a need. If the children’s ministry already has enough people serving and the setup crew is lacking it is probable that people will be asked to join the setup crew regardless of how good they are with kids.
3. Care Groups:
Many of my above comments in section1 apply here but again if a church is in need of x number of CGLs and say x-2 is the number of church members exceptionally gifted in the position then it would make sense to put the two people most qualified into the position and also ask two more qualified people to join those groups in an assistant type capacity. However I have seen people decide to go to a group other than the one suggested to them, but also don’t expect that to necessarily be the end of the conversation you may be asked more than once or the situation may be explained further, but I don’t feel that the care group placement requests are commands.
4. Modesty:
The only proper answer to this complaint is that it is unfounded. I can only assume that you are a woman and as a man I can assure you that the topic of lust is not foreign to SGMs male members. Most of these messages are given at men only sessions so that we can discus many of these things more completely than would be appropriate in mixed company. On the other side as a man I was, and still am mostly ignorant in regards to the kinds of things taught the women about modesty. It was a long while after the fact that I even heard that the modesty checklist even existed. So just to set the record straight as a male growing up in SGM I was under the impression that modesty was promoted among the girls but that the majority of talks about lust were to the men about the sin issues in their lives. While it is not discussed in detail or at length male modesty is also mentioned and encouraged.
5. Parenting:
I am not a parent, I am not even married, so I cannot answer this argument from direct experience but I do observe things. It seems to me that this is an issue that is found everywhere and just because it can also be found in SGM is it being used as a reason to attack it. Similar to the argument against Christians for hypocrisy despite the fact that hypocrites can be found in universities, atheist groups, the library, the local bar, and on the highway. First off if your child walks around bad mouthing all the adults and hitting the other children we should not expect the reaction to be: “But they are really nice at home when no one is looking so its ok.” On the other had I agree that what children (or anyone) for that mater does when they are by themselves is important. However I think it should be pointed out that these are things that are done “when no one is looking.” In other words when a child smiles and greets them politely (things children should do by the way) we cannot expect people to have a word of knowledge telling them that this child is actually really mean to his sister at home and disobedient to his parents. When a child acts well in public parents are complimented. This is just as true in the grocery store by complete strangers as in the church. I can also say that even though outward obedience is the only thing other people can see and it is the only thing we can expect them to know, based on my experience in SGM the definition of good parenting has little to do with the way a child behaves in public. It has much more to do with the parent’s faithfulness to guide their children Biblically. A pronouncement of successful parenting based on child behavior (public or private) is wrong.
6. Gossip/Slander Issues:
I have on more than one occasion voiced my disagreement with a pastors teaching on a given topic or sub topic, or on the way a topic was presented. Some times even in care group! ::gasp:: And I have never been shunned for it, I have been disagreed with and argued against (and I mean a real argument not a shouting match) which I think are good responses. And as was said before I am not new here, after 11 years I have found myself more vocal about my disagreements now that I am older.
If you want to criticize SMGs church government model in the form a biblically based argument I do not have a problem with that. I may not agree with you but I still consider a disagreement in doctrine a legitimate reason to seek another place of worship. But when your disagreement becomes “examples” of what you take to be a bad leadership model that are more reductio ad absurdum than valid arguing points I have issue with that.
 

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Great post!  Something has been bothering me lately.  What is it all about when SGM leaders call those of us who want to follow and hear from the Lord ourselves, Mystics?  And they don’t mean it in a good way.  Didn’t the Lord give us His Holy Spirit to us to comfort and be with us while He isn’t here on earth?  I’m confused.  I can’t imagine a relationship with God that wasn’t give and take, where he never spoke to me in my spirit.  

The only things I did at PDI was nursery and taking meals to people that had a baby (although I wasn’t permitted to offer breastfeeding advice.)

Now, I’m an usher and people are casually directed to me for breastfeeding advice and to find out, for example, if they’re *really* in labor. I get asked random Biology questions as well, Genetics seems to be the most popular topic.

Of course, they also want me to opine about that darn Mary and Carole and Gracie. Can you believe she wore the same dress to church two weeks in a row……..

I would add the devaluing of women to the list, although this may not be true across all of SGM.  In our experience and from others’ stories on the blogs, in at least some SGM churches, women’s roles are narrowly defined and those who don’t fit the mold of stay-at-home, homeschooling wife and mom do not always find meaningful fellowship and can become lonely.  Women are encouraged and expected to serve their husbands, children and church to the exclusion of almost anything else.  In addition, the “encouragement” women receive to service their husbands sexually can get downright offensive, IMO.  We are human beings, for goodness sake! 

In my PDI time, never was I asked by my senior pastor or his wife what was important to me, what goals or vision I held in my heart for serving the Lord.  We were homegroup leaders directly “under” their care, ones whom they were supposed to be investing in.  If anyone was going to ask, wouldn’t it have been them?  I guess it was assumed that my vision or goal was serving my children and supporting my husband as he served the local church.  Honestly, for the season of time when my children were little, that was my goal.  But there are other worthwhile things in life and in His Kingdom that women can do.  As it turns out, I have an evangelistic bent.  I ended up (long after leaving PDI) getting involved in adult literacy to meet people outside of church and homeschooling, to provide help for them where they desparately needed it, and to look for opportunities to share the Lord.  I feel confident that PDI as it was in my day would not have approved of my “parachurch” service.