So CJ has this blog. It’s THE Sovereign Grace Ministries blog, but the subtitle is “C.J. Mahaney’s view from the cheap seats
& other stuff”, so it’s his blog. It appears that Tony does most of the blogging, but it’s CJ’s blog.
I know that it’s very uncharacteristic, but it happens to be one of the few blogs where comments are not permitted. I know you’re shocked.
Now the T4G blog allows comments, but they are moderated, and I couldn’t find any comments that made it through moderation-but they do allow comments. I just couldn’t find any.
Anyway, so CJ has this blog, and there is honestly a lot of good stuff on there. I enjoyed the Sinclair Ferguson posts.
When CJ’s not trashing Belicheck for acting like an unbeliever, he helps us with suggestions about how we should act during our summer vacation. Stuff like that.
I like the interviews. One such, obviously impromptu interview occurred between Josh and CJ, in which CJ once again helps the sheep in knowing how to behave. No surprise that the context is our behavior towards our pastors.
Enjoy!
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Joshua Harris: For non-pastors listening who are asking, “How can I be a joy to my pastors?”, what are ways they can be encouraging and boosting the joy of their pastors?
C.J. Mahaney: Well, excellent question. In Hebrews 13:17 we read, “Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you.” [ESV]
So for all those who are listening, that is an excellent question to be asking. This is a biblical question: How can I make pastoring a joy for my pastor?
I think one would be wise to begin with a text like this and to recognize the priority of making it a joy to serve in pastoral ministry by your appreciation of those in pastoral ministry—your appreciation of their character, their care, their labor, their unique work on your behalf. So there is an appropriate responsiveness expected of you towards their leadership and service in the context of the local church that will make it a joy for them to pastor.
And it would be wise for everyone listening to ask another question: Am I a joy to pastor?
And don’t confine the evaluation of yourself to yourself. I would encourage everyone listening to approach your pastor and ask, “Am I a joy for you to pastor? And if not, why not? I want to be a joy to pastor. I want to bring you joy in pastoring.”
So I think Scripture is clear: By appreciating the character of their pastor and the labor of their pastor, by encouraging their pastor, by the member’s own participation in the local church, they can be a pure joy to pastor.
God wants happy pastors. Any other kind of pastor does not accurately represent God. Yet happy pastors are, to some degree, dependent on individuals who make it a joy to pastor.
July 1st, 2008 at 8:26 am
“I think one would be wise to begin with a text like this and to recognize the priority of making it a joy to serve in pastoral ministry by your appreciation of those in pastoral ministry
July 1st, 2008 at 8:28 am
“No wonder this is so hard for me. We don
July 1st, 2008 at 8:43 am
Gracie,
I like your husband!
You are correct-the whole “double honor” concept has been taken to the extreme.
July 1st, 2008 at 9:01 am
Several things bother me about this particular line of thinking.
The first would be the leap from “leader” in the quoted scripture to “pastor” in the application. The NT talks about a number of different leadership roles (teacher, shepherd, elder, overseer to name some obvious ones) all of which are wrapped into one role in the SGM church government, namely, the “pastor”. So when we hear “leader”, we think “pastor”.
Secondly, I have trouble with the “God wants happy pastors [leaders]” idea. Is this what the scripture is really getting at? Is this the main point?
Along these same lines, I have to ask: if I don’t heed this application to make my pastor happy, is the resulting “groaning” (aka complaining or grumbling) my fault, and not that of my dissed pastor? Exactly what kind of weird intertwined sin relationship is being suggested here?
Finally, I am not at all comfortable with the implications of the idea that a non-happy pastor cannot accurately represent God. I don’t exactly know what is being said here, but it seems very odd. Whatever this means, I don’t see anything like it in the quoted scripture. This is a tangent.
July 1st, 2008 at 9:19 am
Welcome equus!
Nice name. Clever
You’re right about the Scriptural relevance, and about the tangent.
It’s one of many with apparently the same intent.
July 1st, 2008 at 9:54 am
I would like to see these dear leaders pull the planks out of their collective eyes before nitpicking splinters, ad infinitum, out of the eyes of their poor sheep.
July 1st, 2008 at 10:11 am
Ahhh, I see CJ is going green! He’s recycling his “messages” from “The Holy Desk”.
July 1st, 2008 at 11:34 am
I know I wasn’t a “joy to pastor”!
July 1st, 2008 at 11:48 am
Oh, and great choice of picture for this posting =)
July 1st, 2008 at 12:45 pm
Summer,
Same here. I started asking questions. My pastor evaded answers and demanded blind obedience. When I didn’t give it, he told me that he felt he couldn’t pastor me, as he’d be called to give an account for all he led, and if I wouldn’t follow him, I’d basically be dragging him down at the Final Judgment. So I needed to fall in line or leave.
July 1st, 2008 at 1:11 pm
Travis,
I love that picture you use!
July 1st, 2008 at 1:14 pm
“Durr…!”
July 1st, 2008 at 1:59 pm
Okay, here is a verse from another sheep who did not make the Pastor “happy” (how self-serving can you get?!)
July 1st, 2008 at 2:15 pm
Hmm. My pastors for the last 13 years have been in mega churches and they don’t know my name. They recognize my face but that’s it.
July 1st, 2008 at 4:50 pm
Summer, Canary, Travis,
I could quote your comments verbatim regarding my experiences with SGM (we questioned and then were blackballed).
July 1st, 2008 at 6:18 pm
I would question how much study Mahaney has done using Greek tools or relying on people that are in his group that are familiar with the Greek language.
July 1st, 2008 at 7:27 pm
To give an example or expand on my above comment, if one does some study on what the meaning of the Greek word translated “obey” means one will find it has more of a persuasive meaning vs. a strict obedience meaning.
July 1st, 2008 at 10:21 pm
Steve,
You stole some of my future thunder by “going greek” on us. I’m glad!
You are absolutely correct.
My favorite sgm pastor actually teaches this. He defined submit, to the entire church, as “allowing yourself to be persuaded”. He followed with, “you have the right to remain unpersuaded, but submission is an attitude that causes you to hear what leaders have to say, as opposed to an attitude that says, ‘talk to the hand’”
July 2nd, 2008 at 9:56 am
Jim
Sorry if I stole your “future thunder.”
July 2nd, 2008 at 10:07 am
C J is the self appointed leader of a denomination, and all denominations are man made. There is only ONE church,
July 2nd, 2008 at 10:44 am
How amazingly self-serving that they would speak like that!
July 2nd, 2008 at 12:02 pm
Steve,
Well said. And again, I’m glad you beat me to the punch.
I don’t care who speaks the truth, I just want it said.
I was kidding with you about the “future thunder”.
July 2nd, 2008 at 12:27 pm
Jim,
I finally had a few moments to look around the site more carefully and my eyes have been opened.
I have a very dear friend in a church that is not officially affiliated with SGM, but is greatly influenced by Mahaney and the rest of the celebrity Reformed.
I have wondered about a number of odd statements coming from that pulpit and now I know why.
The potential for abuse is very high whenever we have this radical separation between pulpit and pew.
The reach of SGM goes way beyond the walls of the denomination.
Thank you for enlightening me and informing me that I might inform others.
July 2nd, 2008 at 12:37 pm
Michael,
Thanks for stopping by-and you’re welcome!
Guys, if you want to see a true online community, please stop by Michael’s website. It’s unlike anything I’ve seen online.
I can only aspire….
phoenixpreacher.com
July 2nd, 2008 at 12:45 pm
Kathy,
1st time here? If so, welcome!
I can’t count the red flags…
July 2nd, 2008 at 2:29 pm
Yes, first time.
July 2nd, 2008 at 3:28 pm
Gracie,
So we not only have basically the same name, but basically the same experience… and I’m quite sure you’re not from my area either…
Hmm… I’m wondering why so many people have experienced the same things over the years. I mean, obviously, according to CJ, it’s because we all weren’t a “joy to pastor”… *rolls eyes*
July 2nd, 2008 at 4:03 pm
I’m a thorn in the side to my pastors
he he
Was reading in Jude and 1 Peter this morning…some of the descriptions reminded me of some of the SGM leadership.
So do you guys think the word on SGM is getting out yet? What kind of damage control do you think they are doing?
July 2nd, 2008 at 4:31 pm
Hi Gracie May!
I’ve “seen” you over on the survivors blog and have followed your posts.
July 2nd, 2008 at 4:56 pm
Carole,
Why thank you for the welcome! Believe me, after being excommunicated by SGM, it’s nice to receive a welcome from other believers…
July 2nd, 2008 at 5:16 pm
LOL!!
July 2nd, 2008 at 8:50 pm
Hi Gracie May!
July 3rd, 2008 at 7:47 am
#28 – Concerned:
“So do you guys think the word on SGM is getting out yet? What kind of damage control do you think they are doing?”.
No I think from a UK perspective at the moment SG are doing their well-rehersed “let’s stick our heads in the sand and hope everyone goes away”.
July 3rd, 2008 at 8:54 am
Good morning Dan.
What are your “indicators” that “public opinion is growing” and that they’re “aware and worried”?
This is encouraging news!
July 3rd, 2008 at 12:04 pm
Oh Carole… I have felt like a leper more times over the past year than I ever thought would be possible in the Christian community…
Dan: I would agree with you in that SGM does not have the courage to stand up and admit they’re wrong… I have often wondered, since these pastors can openly confess their own “sins” in the pulpit on any given Sunday, why they can’t just stand up and say “We have done wrong… we have sinned and we know it…” I mean, wouldn’t that be an example of humility as well? But then I think about the real answer to that question and I begin to think the following:
If SGM were to stand up and admit wrong, it would completely (and I do mean COMPLETELY) bring down their entire system of pastoral control.
July 3rd, 2008 at 12:21 pm
I doubt the SGM leaders would ever see it as abuse the way we do.
July 3rd, 2008 at 3:39 pm
canary said “I doubt the SGM leaders would ever see it as abuse the way we do.”
I agree, and have some thoughts about why it is so hard:
The power structure, namely, that the head pastor has all the authority, is the context in which all of “local church” happens. This is a given in SGM; it is an explicit choice of church government style. This style of local church organization is seen as biblical, and therefore, in some measure, “true”.
Once you accept this as true, then any opposition to the pastor(s) is an opposition, in part, to this “true” context, which is a small step away from an opposition to the “truth”.
If you are defending the truth, it is easy to overlook methodology.
This is a very tight interplay of ideas which makes it hard to see that the tactics employed to protect the particular context for “local church” are actually unloving or even a form of abuse.
This same thinking will make it very hard, in my estimation, for the challenges that we present here to be viewed as anything but more “opposition” to the “truth”. I say, very hard, but not impossible. Oh, that they would step back from their tightly intertwined thoughts and see, and acknowledge, the bad as well as the good that can result from their ideas.
Oh, that they would see that without love, such efficient means of government are merely the feeble structures and organizations of sinful men.
I believe that it is possible.
July 3rd, 2008 at 4:11 pm
equus,
Very accurate assessment.
My hope for reform within SGM comes first from my hope in God.
My hope for reform within SGM regarding what role man will play in that reform is not really reform from within. My prayer is that the evangelical heavy hitters that CJ runs with, and others who he would like to run with, would smell the smoke.
In 3 weeks we received 45K visitors with 12k uniques? That’s pretty crazy, and I’m still saving my good stuff.
I believe the time is ripe, as CJ has never been so concerned with image as he is right now.
So, I’m not praying that CJ will call me.
I want to speak with Piper, Grudem, Mohler, MacArthur, etc.
If the evangelical reformed mafia would collectively apply pressure to SGM, I think things would change.
None of these men believe that the episcopal form of government is necessary to protect your doctrine or the sheep. Their personal experience alone would trump CJ’s argument before they ever had to open their Bibles. Throw a Lutheran into the mix, and CJ’s toast.
I might be nuts, but I know that SGM damage control can only keep people from posting. It’s obvious that they’re reading. If my in box could talk….
My prayer is that those outside of SGM would see the smoke, and consider that fact that there just might be a fire.
July 3rd, 2008 at 4:16 pm
O, Equus, I love your very humble handle.
I’m reading Leap over a Wall:
July 3rd, 2008 at 4:19 pm
Call me uncharitable, but I don’t think Harvey’s polity statement
is very well thought out. It would take so many leaps of logic to connect his dots, it looks to me like a bit of a rush job.
There’s one author that he seems to lean on heavily, but ends up with a different conclusion than that author.
More on this to come…
July 3rd, 2008 at 4:41 pm
Yeah Jim, I agree with you. That piece (the perspectives piece on polity) is one straw man argument after the other. My friend had the decency to point it out to me when we were discussing it. He does not present a strong argument for his philosophy, he gives us just enough information to take what he has at face value without really getting any evidence. At least there are other leaders in the Christian Church that don’t settle for the same kind of theology.
July 3rd, 2008 at 9:30 pm
Equus,
Very well thought out and expressed (#37).