For anyone involved in the life of a Sovereign Grace Church, you’ve probably noticed a great deal of what I call “serving up”. I don’t think I need to explain this concept too deeply, as I would consider it a distinctive. If your pastor has a heath problem, all hands are on deck-cut the grass, bring meals, etc. I’m not aware of many pastors who have ever had to pay a baby sitter. The sheep take care of these guys. A church that doesn’t normally post prayer requests in their bulletin, will find a prayer request posted for a pastor they have never heard of. These guys really are special. In my former SGM church, at Christmas, very nice pictorial Christmas cards were sent by the pastor, to other pastors, all on your dime. The walls were lined with similar cards received from other pastors. I’m not aware of these cards being sent to the sheep-you know, the ones they serve. And the ones who paid for the cards.
Then we find the wonderful world of honorariums. This is a beautiful thing. A SGM pastor receives a salary. The “first among equals” receives the highest salary, as he is the main teaching pastor. Given the “primacy of preaching” view, it could be said that he is paid to preach.
Now it’s common to have a guest speaker from time to time, who will fill the pulpit-maybe the sr p is enjoying one of his 5 weeks paid vacation. Maybe he’s sick, or maybe he (or the bishop) feels that this particular church needs to hear a special message from another man. This visiting pastor receives what is called an honorarium. This is a financial gift.
This practice is a lovely form of “double dipping”, as the visiting pastor has already been paid by his home church, and he receives a nice gift (check) from the church he’s visiting. Anyone can surf the SGM churches websites, many of which archive the Sunday sermons, to see how often this occurs. Very telling is how often the bishops, such as the sr p of MLC in Orlando, actually fill their own pulpit.
I do have a point….
In my former SGC, these honorariums were combined with benevolence in the financial statement that they shared with the sheep. This church was not particularly benelovent. After my departure, I watched a family (members from the beginning) lose their house while the pastors were…doing whatever they do.
Here’s my problem. Gifts to employed pastors have nothing to do with benevolence. Why not separate the 2 items in the financial statement, so the people who are funding the whole deal can know; how much money are we giving to employed pastors who double dip when they come to serve us, and how much of our money goes to helping people in need.
It would also end all speculation concerning men like the bishop. He may very well refuse an honorarium. I would not be shocked if he did. But how am I to know? ( I know, I’m just supposed to trust the pastors)
In the OT, the purpose of the tithe was so specific. In the NT, tithing is not a commandment for gentile believers. Giving was for specific purposes, and the church knew why they were giving. You can do your own homework on this one.
In SGM, you are supposed to trust your leaders. You are taught that you are giving to God, and are to trust without question what your sr p does with your money. I have personally witnessed my former sr p make some brain-dead (not immoral, except for the pride inherent in the belief that he alone knows what’s best) financial decisions. So many times I thought, “the members wouldn’t want their tithe to be treated in this way”.
Why is the pastoral handling of finances a secret in your SGC? Wouldn’t it make sense to end all speculation and be completely open and honest? Can’t the donors handle the truth?
Do you have a right to know what your pastors make? Is it any concern of yours how much of your money goes to the fresh faced new intern, who very often was born or married into his position, or should you just keep on giving, and trust your leaders?
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I am not implying that there is no financial accountability within SGC’s. When I was at SGC T-Ville, a statement was sent every month to Orlando. All I can say is that this further proves my point.
An administrator in another city knows more about how your money is spent than you do.
You’re just a sheep. But do keep giving and trusting. That’s your job.
Money in the church is a tricky business.
I have another thought.
What a beautiful story, canary!
Thanks, Gracie.
That is a sweet story, Canary!!
Very sweet story, not exactly our experience, we were told by our SG pastor that our indwelling sin was his job security………..
Wow, Happymom…
Happymom,
Welcome!
Canary, that is a beautiful story. Thanks for sharing an example of what Biblical finances can look like on a small-group level.
On the subject of double-dipping, I found a piece of scripture last night that I thought went really well with that theme. The reference is II Corinthians 2:17, but if your going to read it, I would start a bit before there. In my Bible, they gave it the sub-heading of “Ministers of the New Covenant”. This scripture specifically talks about the ministry of Paul and company, and how they did not peddle the word of God for profit. Now I am not definitively saying visiting pastors are doing so for the sake of profiteering. No, but I think they see it as a nice bonus. This reminds me of a similar news story a few months ago, about the Florida State higher education system, where many professors and administrators were double-dipping. It was seen largely as an unethical practice in a place where finances are always tight. If we are God’s witnesses to all the world, and if we truly believe He has called us to spread His Word by being in likeness of Him, it seems unethical behavior such as this puts the Church
Mike,
Thank you for your thoughtful comment. Interesting that a secular system finds double dipping unethical.
Regarding the OT tithe, I could point you to Scripture that clearly explains the purpose of the old covenant, and the fact that we are under a new covenant. I’m assuming that you already understand this, as you may eat pork, probably don’t see circumcision as a religious requirement, and
Jim,
I find it shocking that I have lived for so long under a false asumption about the NT believer’s role in the Church. I briefly skimmed over the majority of the NT, and while I found a few places where the authors mentioned something about giving, I found nothing that mentioned a 10% rule or anything close to it. Thank you for helping me understand this better. I think I have previously seen these references to giving and somehow tied that to the OT beliefs about offering. If I am understanding you and what I have read correctly, the act of giving offering to the church, out of a member’s income, is the result of giving from the heart of the believer to further the Gospel. It is a gift to the ministry to reach out. Is this correct?
Jim,
One more thing.
Canary,
This week, I’ll address the doctrine of perspicuity and compare SGM polity to NT polity. Among other things….
Travis has a post about tithing on his blog.
http://travis.webseitler.com/2.....tithe.html
Travis did an excellent job in that post, and in the discussion that followed.
I’m a fan, and would link or HT, but I’m not sure he wants my baggage right now.
We’re talking about it.
Okay, Jim, I need to find my dictionary to look up the meaning of “perspicuity”. Love those big words! I hope what you mean is that you will deal with the failings of authoritarian church leadership, comparing it to the NT. That will be very, very interesting…
Canary,
My intended audience during this season loves big words. Their preferred form of communication will be sharply contrasted by the words and general manner of speech of the true scholar who will be featured in my next post.
My blog mentor/pastor friend thinks that I’m way too methodical-and he’s right. I’m just having a hard time letting go of that character trait.
My use of perspicuity was intentional-but the intent was not to impress or speak over anyone’s head. I hope that it’ll be clear in my next post.
canary,
you will be happy to know that I don’t know what perspicuity means. (However, as I was writing the previous sentence to you, my spell check said perspicuity was spelled wrong! ROFLOLOL!!)
ps. however spell check is sometimes wrong, so don’t count on that!
“perspicuity” – I like the way you say that (said like Mr. Rogers on Mr. Rogers Neighborhood).
I don
Yep-same old stuff that obviously has no bearing on gentile believers.
They use the first 2 as Jesus endorsing the tithe. He endorsed and kept the entire law. When the context is pointed out, Abraham is used, as he pre-dates the law.
Abraham did a lot of things I don’t think I should be doing.
Ellie and Gracie,
I looked up “perspicuity” in my little dictionary, and couldn’t find it, so I’m still in the dark. However, I love the word – rolls right off the tongue. Jim, never thought for a moment that you were trying to impress anyone. I love learning new words!
SGMSingle,
Jesus was speaking to those who were still under the Old Covenant. He had yet to finish what He’d come to accomplish. Jim is right that, if we Gentiles have to obey one part of the old law, why not all the other parts? I’ve always wondered what people’s reactions would be if I tithed my bottles of mint, dill, and cumin on a Sunday morning.
Jesus came to fulfill the law in our hearts. Everything we do should be out of love for Him, not out of compulsion. It is so simple. I think the main reason that pastors hold so tight to this law (to the exception of other rules in the OT) is that they fear what would happen if they gave freedom to the congregation to give offerings instead of the lawful 10%. I think the Lord would surprise them by the generosity that grace bestows!
LOL, spell check was right this time on the spelling and here is the meaning:
The doctrine of the clarity of Scripture (often called the “perspicuity of Scripture”) teaches that “the meanings of the text can be clear to the ordinary reader, that God uses the text of the Bible to communicate His person and will.” 1) “The witness of the Church throughout the ages is that ordinary people, who approach it in faith and humility, will be able to understand what the Bible is getting at, even if they meet with particular points of difficulty here and there.”
http://www.theopedia.com/Perspicuity_of_Scripture
whoops!
I have a lot of trouble with the self serving tithe teaching. I must admit that the pastor of our current church, who is usually very grace-oriented teaches the same tithe teaching.
It drives me batty. When we went to our PDI church, we were dirt poor and tithed faithfully up until we were disfellowshipped. We couldn’t afford to take our kids to the dentist and one of them actually endured an abcessed tooth, but we couldn’t afford the dentist but we were tithing faithfully.
They will inevitably(sp) during a tithing sermon, tell you to put
God to the test (because the Bible says to,) and dare Him to bless you (or some such nonsense.)
I am here to say that the minute we stopped tithing legalistically and started using the money that God had given us to take care of our family and *give* to the church, our finances have prospered tremendously.
I think this is a heart issue. I give what I give to the church willingly and with a generous heart. I believe our primary responsibility is to our children and elderly parents.
And to answer the question that is being asked in the title of this post, no, I do not trust my leaders blindly and I would run far away from leadership that encouraged blind faith in anyone but God Himself.
I was in serious error to allow my children to suffer to fulfil the tenents of legalistic teaching.
These stories are such an encouragement to give out of love instead of duty. I cannot believe that I had been captivated by an OT teaching for so long and never realized what was going on. Thanks to everyone, and most importantly to the Holy Spirit, for this new revelation. The mystery of God’s Word became a little bit clearer to me because of this.
DB,
What is so wonderful about the Lord is that He redeems our mistakes.
Ellie,
Concerning your post #24, thanks for the in-depth definition.
1.
clearness or lucidity, as of a statement.
2.
the quality of being perspicuous.
One example of “double dipping” that happened at least in SG’s “TAG” days was that they would pay both Larry and C.J. a commission based on their cassette tape sales.
I think this is the “VERY” reason you can download their messages, as well as many other ministries’ messages for free.
DB said, “We couldn
Travis!
It’s about time you showed your face here
Err….Travis?
I meant to say-good to see you!
Jim,
If the guy you mentioned in #34 is JB, he does joke around a lot, but if you ask him to get serious, he will. I suspect there may have been some seriousness to the
It was JB. He has been very serious with me (in a good way) a number of times.
I was interested to get the following email article from Dr Sam Storms;
“When one first reads 2 Corinthians 11:7-12, it sounds outlandish, virtually incomprehensible. Paul preached the gospel of God in Corinth for free. He refused to accept payment for his ministry in that city. He labored tirelessly with his hands to support himself so that he need never take up an offering after proclaiming the truth. And they accused him of committing a sin in doing so! As I said, outlandish and incomprehensible!
Paul’s opponents may have recognized that they were at a distinct disadvantage to him by accepting money for their labors in Corinth and wanted the opportunity to boast that they had ministered on the same terms as he. They no doubt tried to goad him into altering his policy and accepting monetary support. In this way they hoped to eliminate the embarrassing difference between them and him. But Paul refused to yield and thus undercut their desire to be considered his equal with regard to financial support (v. 12).
One thing is for sure: Paul was not for sale! The appeal of money was as powerful then as now. The promise of what it could obtain was alluring and difficult to resist. But such was the depth of Paul’s satisfaction in Christ that the happiness he might otherwise have obtained from great wealth was overmatched and overcome”.
Since teachers, philosophers, and orators in ancient times were expected to charge for their services in proportion to their skill and gifting, Paul’s refusal to accept financial support from the Corinthians exposed him to the accusation of being a fraud. The intruders had put Paul in a no-win situation: if he refuses remuneration he betrays his own awareness of inauthenticity, incompetence, and lack of authority; but if he receives remuneration it is because he is greedy and thus is guilty of peddling the gospel. Add to this the fact that manual labor, such as tent-making (Paul’s chosen trade), was viewed by the Greeks with disdain”.
Interesting hey?!
Dan,
VERY interesting!
Wow, late posting on my part or what?… Jim, hi, I’ve never addressed you directly so I thought I would say, “Hi.” So Jim, “perspicuity”? Ouch, that makes my head hurt. The regulars on this board may like big words, but this lil’ ole brain of mine needs you to speak much more slowly and with simple words. Hand gestures may be helpful, too (like when you talk to someone who speaks a different language). I’m in the Ivy all day long but I is a simple person.
That’s what I liked about “the early days” of my SGM experience. Back then the pastors used simple words that all could understand. Now they seem to think they are doing God’s work by using lingo not used by the average American and speaking above the average vocabulary level (a 12 year olds vocab to be exact). I just never saw Jesus doing that. (Not that I speak ancient Greek.) But he seemed to use stories that related to farmers, fisherman, regular folk. Ah, how I love my savior.
Please, don’t get me wrong. This is just some teasing from a complete stranger who came in here without even having the manners to introduce herself properly… now that I think about it… I still can’t figure the proper way. If anyone has any suggestions, please let me know.
Thank you and carry on with your big words while I go check my dictionary.
Stunned-
Hi. I use SGMspeak when possible on purpose. Ellie posted the definition above-
The doctrine of the clarity of Scripture (often called the “perspicuity of Scripture”) teaches that “the meanings of the text can be clear to the ordinary reader, that God uses the text of the Bible to communicate His person and will.” 1) “The witness of the Church throughout the ages is that ordinary people, who approach it in faith and humility, will be able to understand what the Bible is getting at, even if they meet with particular points of difficulty here and there.”
Thanks, that makes sense why you do it, then.
Wouldn’t it be nice to follow an example like this? *sigh*
http://www.preaching.com/resou...../11581216/
“This is one of the best churches I have ever heard of when it comes to money…the stories about what they do with money is excellent. Francis Chan travels all over the country and either won’t accept or gives away most of his honorariums. He drives a 96 Subaru. One of his pastors sold his giant 3,000 sq. ft. house and moved into an apartment because he didn’t want to waste money. During a fundraising campaign they got so convicted for asking for so much money to build a new church, they decided to cut millions out of the budget by not building a roof. They decided because they are in So Cal they can just have an outdoor stadium and save some money. The church posts all of the pastor’s salaries in a public place for anyone to see. No one makes over $60/k, which in Southern California is ridiculous! Wish more churches were more like this with their money. ”
-The Reformer on City Business Church
I’ve been following Francis Chan and how God has been using and continues to use him at Cornerstone for the last couple years. It’s been incredible to watch God provide for them as they seek to love others as much as themselves.
Anyways yes, sorry for resurrecting this old topic but anyways yes. I love their heart and passion for God and others.
And I hope you enjoy the article. =)
Good article, MingWai! Thanks!
MingWai,
I recently (New Year’s Eve) heard about this pastor and the church there is So Cal for the first time. A brother in the Lord told me about him and was impressed. I hadn’t had a chance to go check it out, but he said some of his sermons were on YouTube..
thanks for reminding us that not ALL leaders are wolves in shepherd’s clothing.