I’ve posted one of CJ’s blog posts below. He is quoting Purswell, but obviously approves of the message.
I’ve asked a few pastors to comment, and I hope that they will.
I must admit the hair on the back of my neck stood up a little when I first read this post. You’ll see the clear connection to Moses and to OT prophets. What you will not see is any indication that Purswell is aware that we now live in the New Covenant. This is an excerpt from a preaching conference at the PC, and further evidence that SGM has swallowed the Moses Model hook, line, and sinker.
It’s no wonder that the sr p’s can’t be an active part of the life of their local church, and that they cannot accept correction or observations from us mere mortals.
They sit in the seat of Moses.
No changes were made to CJ’s post, and the emphasis is all his.
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The Preacher Standing in the Stead of God
3/5/2008 1:54:00 PM In Sovereign Grace we are committed to the primacy of preaching in building the local church. And within this conviction is an awareness of the gravity of the preaching event.
At a recent conference on preaching, held at our Pastors College, Jeff Purswell (dean of the Pastors College) eloquently and passionately made this point. This excerpt (transcribed and posted below) will challenge all men called to preach and make a difference in our souls as we stand behind the sacred desk this Sunday and speak on behalf of God.
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Preaching is incarnational, meaning it calls for the presence of human personality. This sets preaching apart from other modes of communication. This sets preaching apart from personal Bible reading. That is why we don’t just hand out Bibles and read from Scripture on a Sunday morning. Why not? Because there is more going on in the preaching moment than just a delivery of information.
One of the things that enters here is biblical anthropology. We are people created in the image of God. We were created to know God, created to reflect God, and endowed with certain characteristics from God. And so we are created to know him.
Just as in the ancient Near East a king, in vast provinces he cannot travel to, would set up huge statues of himself which represented his presence and authority, in the same way God has set up an image of himself to represent and reflect himself. And that is man. And this impacts the way God communicates, as he speaks through divinely appointed messengers. After man was ejected from the Garden, God has communicated to his people by mediating his word through someone. Even the Scriptures were mediated from God through someone.
God didn’t just deliver the Israelites. God could have just wiped out the Egyptians and delivered Israel. No. He sent a messenger to reveal God to him. “Tell him I AM has sent you.” And then after delivering them he appointed this messenger to not only give them his law, but then to interpret that law. So Deuteronomy is basically comprised of three sermons of Moses explicating this law. And then, of course, throughout the rest of the Old Testament we read the prophets. The most accurate definition of a prophet is one who speaks God’s words. “I will put my words in his mouth” (Deuteronomy 18:18). That is the definition of a prophet.
And then, of course, the ultimate revelation is through the person of God’s Son, Jesus Christ. He is a particular kind of revelation, a different kind of revelation, not just one prophet through a line of other prophets, but a qualitatively different revelation (Hebrews 1:1–2). And then the apostles stand in that same succession. Now preachers stand in that same succession.
Listen to this quote from a classic essay on preaching by J.I. Packer in The Preacher and Preaching. Packer writes,
God’s standard way of securing and maintaining His person-to-person communication with us His human creatures is through the agency of persons whom He sends to us as His messengers.…Such were the prophets and apostles, and such supremely was Jesus Christ, the incarnate Son.…That is the succession in which preachers today are called to stand.
It’s sobering that this is “the succession in which preachers today are called to stand.” The moment of preaching is not simply one in which you—by virtue of your job or by virtue of the nameplate on your office door—get to stand up and share some thoughts. No. You are not sharing thoughts. You are not Jay Leno. You are not a talking head. You are standing in the very stead of God.
Oh, that is a frightening thing.
It’s not only a divine message you are bringing, but you are meant to be a suitable vessel for that message, embodying its truth, exemplifying an appropriate response to its claims, impassioned by the weight of the message and the urgency of the moment.
-Jeff Purswell, address from February 14, 2008
Well, there you have it…that pretty well explains it all.
“…stand behind the sacred desk this Sunday and speak on behalf of God.”
This I believe was posted on the Survivors site as well. Its scary. This is one area the reform needs to happen fast if there is going to be any systemic change in SG.
I agree, Mike!
May God move quickly…
Gracie…
“gets my dander up”…
QUOTE: “Preaching is incarnational, meaning it calls for the presence of human personality. This sets preaching apart from other modes of communication. This sets preaching apart from personal Bible reading. That is why we don
Break out the kool aid.
This stuff is frightening to me.
CJ=The Pope, infallable (sp) How do you impeach the Pope?
I know I keep bringing up non SG examples but if you do a search online of Christianity Today and do a search under Calvary Chapel last year there was a quite a long extensive dialogue about the Moses Model and abuse within their system.
This is what I want to say. I am betting that when CJ was saved and discipled he was influenced by the 1980′s shepherding ‘Florida 5′. He may deny it but whoever taught him was. It is RAMPANT in MOST charismatic denominations and churches.Until present leadership of that decade dies off or recognizes their error it will continue.
To this day you can pick up tapes from many big name teachers. A few in New York City,Los Angeles,
Where CJ gets it wrong is that he mixes up the gifting of God with the place of God.
I’ve said it before and I will say it again – SGM IS Babylon (ifguratively) or Assyria, and CJ is like Nebbuchannezzer (sp) he is high and lifted up in “his kingdom” and God WILL bring CJ down. He mirrors the pride and idolatry exactly. He may not be worshipping Baal, but the spirits of intellectualism, pride, legalism and abuse certainly have names even if we don’t know what they are. These are the guys CJ worships and serves, but he certainly
Thank you for posting Tim!
I’m really hoping for some pastoral input here, and yours is very welcome and appreciated.
Jim –
You’re welcome!
How do people get sucked into believing this?
Tim, C. J. seems to get alot of things
Jim,
I don’t know a lot about SGM…what I’ve heard from CJM I have really appreciated and he seems like a very humble and unassuming man. He is the one who challenged Driscoll about his pride which prompted him to address it in that sermon on humility that was watched many times on Youtube.
I agree with Tim…a pastor in no way stands in the place of God. God speaks through the man, as He communicates His Word but Jesus is our Mediator. The ministry of a pastor is a high calling, one that should be approached with fear and trepidation. But pastors are men, and hold no higher place with God than anyone else.
I’m not ready to write off CJM, or SGM and I hope that his heart is only to remind pastors/preachers of thier high calling.
Thanks for posting Ryan!
I hope you know that I didn’t invite pastors here to try to convince them to write anyone off. I’m looking for pastoral commentary regarding the above statement, and greatly appreciate yours.
Thanks again!
Jim,
I didn’t take it that way at all. I know that your heart is to protect the Church from abusive pastors. I’m sure that like CC there are some SG guys who are taking a dubious philosophy of ministry and using it for their selfish purposes.
I pray that God uses you in a powerful way…prepare for people to speak too highly of you and others to denigrate you wrongfully.
Your neither the apostle Paul or Adolf Hitler…just remember that as you pursue what God has called you to do.
blessings…ryan
Wise words, Ryan.
Thanks again.
As Paul said we are helper’s of your joy,
I often tell the congregation that I like Peter and John in Acts 4:13 “and when they perceived the boldness of Peter and John, that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they took note that they had been with Jesus”
Big Mike,
You’ve shared the heart of a true (under) shepherd.
Thank you!
Bow low, LOWER, EVEN LOWER Pastor approaching. Bow ye lazy Dogs!!
K thats better. I agree, God does use Priests to speak to His people. I know he used the term Pastor, but I, holding to the priesthood of all believers have had the Lord speak to me through my 9 year old son. And my 93 year old Grandma (before she passed on to glory).
Pastors have a message from the Lord for their congregation, but it is an office no more or less important than any other. To be honest, I would love to see what would happen with a congregation that had many more with the gift of intercessory prayer than of teaching. That would be like walking on Holy Ground to enter in. We are Gods bike delivery drivers. His Angels to our towns and our congregations.
Christ told us to send workers into the field, Pastors are not on par with Moses, it is a completely different office. We are laborers introducing people to Christ and growing with them.
Eric!
I was hoping you would stop by.
Very well said, my friend. Thank you for your input!
(do you guys notice that the majority of the pastors who have posted here today felt no need to identify themselves as such, and the one’s who did, did so without a hint of self importance?)
Pastors are sheeple too!
Didnt even know I were one till one of the peeps started a quetion by saying “Pastor, what do you make of this…”
Scared the bleep out of me, I just love talkin to people about Jesus, and discussing His word with them.
Well Eric, I hope you didn’t get any bleep on you.
LOL, Jim got jokes
“To be honest, I would love to see what would happen with a congregation that had many more with the gift of intercessory prayer than of teaching. That would be like walking on Holy Ground to enter in.”
Amen, Eric! GREAT post!!
One extra thought.
If I’m understanding correctly, SGM thinks that we, the sheeple, cannot handle the word of God.
Amen canary, and I agree Jim, I’ve seen more humility from the pastors who’ve posted here than in three years of SGM pastoral leadership and books on humility and “servant leadership”. I think the definition of servant leadership has also been redefined by SGM – it’s something more along the lines of identifying a need a person has, then meeting that need, whatever it is:financial, emotional, spiritual, etc. And it is this very thing that hooks the needy in – we need to be whole in Christ, and then we will not fall for man’s wisdom and wooing.
Wow
Of course I have more to say on SGM and this most recent e-missive from Vicar Charles Joseph.
I said (post #2) “Notice how this whole message is
#14 (Mike):
>Is CJ
keepinstep,
Hi there!
err…. you would be correct.
I know that some of the earlier churches for sure were small fellowships that had already been started, and then were given as an example of “church planting” after PDI people took over leadership.
Nope, I’m afraid you’re right, Canary!
Brent D just moved to such an area to plant one!
Disclaimer: I am not a SGM survior, nor have I ever been a member of a SGM church. As I read this article , I heard a call to take preaching seriously! Ire-read it after reading the comments here and that was still my take away. When you stand before the congregation and teach God’s word, you are representing God and what He thinks. I applaud all who take the task seriously.
After visiting 30+ churches of all different perspectives over the last two years, I can confidently say that this is a serious problem with the American church. We don’t take preaching seriously. Preacher after preacher stand up and share their own stories and such, rarely teaching God’s word. I don’t care what the pastor thinks. I want to hear what the Bible says.
Jim2, AMEN!
Jim2
I always found it shocking how Mahaney could do all this talking about members being a “joy” to lead etc. and no focus on the other part of the verse that indicates that leaders will one day give an account. It shows a lack of balance.
I really question whether leaders in SGM, including Mahaney, take seriously that one day they will give an account for their actions as leaders. It is hard to believe they do when you hear all the sad reports of abuse and questionable actions going on within SGM. Leaders can say they know this verse but their actions don’t seem to indicate they really believe this.
Steve240,
I always saw it as they took their “accounting of the saints” too seriously, as though they would be solely responsible for our souls on THAT day. At least that’s what I remember hearing at times. Thus, their need for such strict control of the saints…
I don’t know if I explained myself well…Jesus is responsible for my soul on THAT day, not leadership of SGM or any other church. As far as preaching goes, preach the word of God, explain God’s nature, His character, encourage the saints to KNOW Him. One of the reasons we left SGM was that we rarely heard the name of Jesus spoken. It was all about doctrine, sin, and how to behave.
I’ve been working on some other articles for other places … so I let this stew a bit, but I wanted to give my 73.24 cents worth.
The charge that some preachers are not serious is a strange one, in my mind. I’ve never met a preacher that thought interpretation was a lark. There are people that put on a show, but at the root they take preaching seriously. Or maybe better said, they take the content of their presentation seriously.
Typically when people start measuring seriousness they really mean to measure someone’s commitment. Listen to the average youth pastor beat the seriousness drum and they are inevitably trying to pound teenagers into some form of actionable loyalty. The message is ultimately no different with adults; it just doesn’t get the same traction. Most adults already have a life full of commitment, so they only thing left is to denigrate their specific values in service to another value i.e. their specific ‘seriousness’ to other commitments.
And in context to the comments above the presumption is a commitment to someone’s specific interpretive conclusion. When one says they “want to hear what the bible says,” they are really saying they have arrived at an understanding and seek to have that confirmed from the pulpit.
That isn’t measured by seriousness but rather is a measured by an interpretive methodology.
Canary is right, the SGM phenomena is not really a question of seriousness … that is commitment. I suspect they read such criticism as an absurdity. They take their doctrinal refocus and pursuit of sound doctrine with utter seriousness. 80% of the conflict revolves around their immovable zeal to execute the logical commitment to the doctrines preached. I venture they look at those from without and ask the same question: “How come you are not more serious with such an extraordinary responsibility with stewarding the Holy word of God.”
And as I said, the issue is not really seriousness; the foundation of this issue is interpretive conclusion. The underlying presumption is if one approached bible understanding the same way, reading it through the same lens, how could one possibly arrive at a different bible understanding?
The Standing in the Stead of God article is not really a measure of interpretive seriousness. It is the presumed of interpretive preference. Or maybe said better: it expects that a select few men are uniquely qualified to understand TRUTH. And as the stewards of that TRUTH they represent God in determining human consumption of TRUTH. In other words, TRUTH is the property of The Church, and that really means the property of Church Leadership.
This core assumption is really the foundation of Papacy as defined directly by Catholic “orthodoxy” since roughly the Council of Constantinople in 553 which confirmed its commitment to judging doctrinal accuracy through this standard: “… the things we have received from the Holy Scriptures and from the teachings of the Holy Fathers and from the definitions of one and the same faith by four sacred councils.”
(The four councils referenced are: Nicaea in 325, Constantinople of 381, Ephesus in 431, and Chalcedon in 451.)
Pope Gregory the Great (600 AD), arguably the first Pope of Western Christianity, and set the governmental tone in Catholic practice through Europe for the next 800 years, presumed that these councils held equal status with the Gospels. The inevitable conclusion of the logic manifest in the formal statements of the Council of Trent (1545 – 63):
“I accept Sacred Scriptures in the sense in which it is been held, and is held, by the Holy Mother Church, to whom it belongs to judge the true sense and interpretation of the Sacred Scripture, nor will I interpret in any other way than is in accordance with the unanimous agreement of the Fathers.”
SGM does not overtly claim papacy as such … but the real issue under their claims is in fact the resurgence of Papacy, just of the Reformation variety.