I know of pastors who have informed their care group leaders of this site and the uncensored site. I don’t know how they prefaced them but I do pray that God will use these two sited to reveal truth and bring repentance beginning with the leaders. I pray for courage and boldness for those who bring concerns to their leaders. For the leaders, I pray for humility and a softness to receive what they hear and that they sincerely care for those who bring their concerns. I pray that unity in the church will be achieved and that more people will be drawn closer to Jesus. May God receive all of the glory.
Okay, everyone. I have a prayer requests. My daughter, 22, is having some health issues that the doctor cannot get to the bottom of. She has had what they thought was a bleeding ulcer and all manner of digestion problems. After having done an endoscopy and a gall bladder ultrasound with the results being completely normal, the doctor is on a watch and see mode for now. Meanwhile, my daughter has terrible, unexplained pain on a fairly regular basis. We need wisdom from God on what to do next.
I can’t tell you what it means to me to be able to put this request out there to folks I know will pray. Thank you so much.
so, what do we think is actually told to their cgl and pastors about these sites? I am thinking it is only a manner of time before my former pastor becomes aware of my blog where I posted all his emails to me! Are we labeled as “under discipline?, slanderous, etc.
Could you guys please pray for my friend “Sally” who is still in the SGM church I recently left? I went over to her house tonight and we had a four hour talk about the Lord, our walks, SGM, the church, all kinds of stuff. It was VERY obiovus the Lord has been busy with her heart - which is a praise - but she said her husband (who is a considering PC next year) made a comment recently about her “not becoming anti-Sovereign Grace” - she said she wasn’t sure why he said this.
I asked if anyone had talked to her about our friendship, because when
A praise report!! Some time ago I asked you guys for prayer for my friends who are still in the SGM church I left - my close friend’s husband was planning to go to Pastor’s College next year…he went to the Worship Conference at the “Mother Church” this past weekend. While he was gone I spent some time with my friend, “Sally” and we prayed that this weekend the Lord would give her husband direction - to close the door to SGM PC (if that was His will), and to give some sort of direction for his calling.
I’ve been very concerned for this young man and his wife…I love them dearly..and oculd see the legalism building and them falling deeper into bondage. well, she told me today that he came back from the conference saying he doesn’t think he is supposed to be a Sovereign Grace pastor, but he still feels called to pastor, but won’t be going to PC next year.
PRAISE GOD!!!! Thanks for your prayers! Please continue to remember them and ask the Lord to reveal, redeem, and restore “the years the locusts have taken” since being at SGM. They are not planning to leave the church that I know of, although the wife is praying for the Lord’s leading whatever that may be. Seems He is opening her eyes and she is hungering for Him, which is causing her to think of “other things” non-SGM. But they have a long hard battle ahead of them..
concerned,
From your comment a bit above about pastors finding out about these blogs…
My pastors are already aware of them and have seen them.
I’m curious, what are your first thoughts in them knowing and seeing what is written here? You said something about them seeing the emails you’d posted… does that scare you? Does that make you feel bad for posting them? Or maybe the opposite?
Pennylane, what is the response from the pastor’s when they hear of the blogs? My guess would be similar to the Wizard of Oz when he was exposed: “Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!”
It used to put me in a panic when I thought about what my pastors would think, or what they may be saying about me. But I pressed on, posting the emails. If you read my blog you’ll see a real fear manifest at one point when my pastor emailed me out of the blue several weeks after I left. I thought I was going to die of fear! The Lord used it to show me I still had fear of man, and needed to cultivate a fear of HIM. When we fear GOd, what can man do to us?
I am of course not saying I would do anything not prompted by love for others. I don’t have an agenda for vengeance or exposing. The Lord does that. But thorugh my words I pray others will be set free. All I can do is speak the truth, give my testimony, and pray the Lord works.
I don’t feel bad or fearful anymore for posting anything. It is the truth. And the truth sets us free.
I think everyone in SGM should take a test. A test to see if you are in bondage. If, after taking the test you find you are, then get free! (and some may be able to do this and not leave their churches, who knows) But at least have the courage to take the test, what do you have to lose except the chains that bind you? At least you’ll now one way or another if you are or not.
So to you guys who are still in an SGM church: The test would be to abstain from any and all Sovereign Grace Ministries activities for one month. No care group, no Sunday meetings, no fellowship with others from the SGM church. No reading blogs from SGM people. Fast from all things Sovereign Grace for one month. Be willing to sacrifice what they call ”dearest place on earth” for the real dearest place on earth: being in the presence of your Father. No books from other authors, just read the Word of God. No sovereign grace pastor’s sermons, or SGM music. Just the Lord and you. Only fellowship with people who don’t go to your church. Just try it and see what happens.
If you find yourself in a panic because you are afraid you will fall away, or are worried what others would think of you if you did these things, then that is your first sign you are in bondage. No need to go further. In other words, if you aren’t willing to fast from all things SGM then ask yourself why? My guess is you’ll find you are in bondage from the start and that is why you are unwilling.
My brother (Jordan) is going under the knife this afternoon: a few months ago the tendon on his right bicep detached from… well… wherever it connects around his shoulder. He’s since been dealing with a lot of pain as doctors tried to tell him it was no big deal, but he got an MRI a few days ago and now they’re performing surgery this afternoon.
This has been quite an ordeal for him, especially dealing with “authorities” who wouldn’t listen to his insistence that this was a serious problem (anyone here able to relate to that?).
So, I just want to ask y’all to please pray that the surgery will go smoothly and that his recovery will be quick and complete.
Concerned,
Good idea and even better than “No SGM” for a month, I’d recommend periodically going to a different church for a month - something different from what I am accustomed to. I think it would be useful exercise for any believer. There are several benefits:
1) Get to see how God works in different setting and by various means
2) I am often tempted to become attached to certain ideas, preferences, and unwritten rules over time - it’s human nature. Having my sacred cows slaughtered on a regular basis encourages humility, wisdom, and reliance on God
3) Make new friends
4) Hear a different perspective on the same topics you’ve been hearing about for years
5) Build confidence in your relationship with God as you see Him work in your life in any context
One of the issues at SGM that became increasingly problematic for me was the isolation from most of the body of Christ. SGM will not work with anyone they do not agree with within a very narrow set of criteria. When I got involved in missions, I encountered a completely different culture of collaboration and cooperation. Also, I’ve switched churches twice in 25 years, and I’m contemplating a third move now. Each time I have had to relearn how to do ministry and how to view church polity.
I’m not recommending becoming butterflies, going here and there without committed friendships and working relationships, just that I need to get out more often, and that it is very health to do so.
Which brings me to pastoral care. SGM has always justified its small world as “protecting the sheep”, but who are they protecting? Paul said to the Corinthians, “You have many guardians but few fathers.” As a father, I want my son to be confident in any situation, so I intentionally expose him different a and sometimes challenging experiences. I’m always there to spot him if he falls, but I love it when he conquers a new challenge and beams, “Wow, that was cool Dad!”
I’m not just bashing SGM, but asking wider question. Do we need to re-thing the nature of pastoral care? As leaders, are we tempted to simply guard people like hired nannies and make sure they behave, or are we fathering spiritual children? I know I have been guilty of the former, but would prefer to do the later.
Finally, I’ve been listening to Bible on CD, and I’m in Corinthians right now. Even though Paul gave quite a few specific command and rebukes, the whole tone of his discourse is a loving and affectionate appeal, knowing the risk that they could choose to respond or not respond. Fortunately they did for the most part. I’ve not found much of the father type of apostleship in US churches. Does anyone get what I am saying?
Oh yeah, good point: an updated might be appreciated.
My brother’s surgery was postponed from Thursday to (last) Friday, and afterward the doctor told my sister-in-law (bro was still conked out) that it went better than he had anticipated! Little brother called me on their way back home to say thanks for the prayers, and while he’s looking at a 6-week recovery period, he’s already back at work.
So there’s my praise for the week! (See, it was all intentional…)
I am really under it right now, and simply need the joy of the Lord. Protracted health issues aside, after reading the posts regarding a former SGM pastor of mine, I feel my hand is being forced to reveal my identity. I keep vascillating whether or not to reveal it, as sharing even mundane details of my story will definitely reveal it to some here, and I fear the revelation will have rippling effect in the SGM church I now attend.
I may be blowing all of this out of proportion, but as you can see, FEAR has become a part of my vocabulary in new way… I’m just not able to endure all of this, and need your prayers. The ice is breaking.
PK,
I have been reading your posts both here and on the survivors blog. From my own experience in PDI, I remember the fear you are feeling quite well. Be assured we are praying for you.
May God fill you with His peace and make clear His path… may He remove the fear from your mind and heart.
Father, I ask that You accomplish these things, that You would speak to PK and guide and direct him in this matter. May Your voice be the One Voice that overrides all others. Comfort PK, grant him Your peace and Your unrelenting joy… shower him with Your presence, lead him in Your way. In the precious Name of Your Son, Amen.
Thank you all for your prayers. I will consider carefully, Jim, and keep my trap shut for now. I’m thinking the wisest course of action is to allow the Holy Spirit governance of my emotions, as He is the great Comforter and is wisest of all.
It is my hope that if we at SGM indeed read these blogs, that there is a sobering up taking place right now rather than a Rat Squad behavior of getting ready to bust people.
I used to be proud of “Reformed in Essence with Charismatic Distinctives,” but this has left way too many loopholes to wiggle around both branches of theology.
Again, I earnestly believe the two can be reconciled, but the attempt to do so at SGM has been vague, to say the least… almost as if there is a deliberate plodding so that an “anything goes” style of leadership has become cancerous and is now eating itself from the outside-in; an implosion, if you will. No wonder conspiracy theories are constantly flying! We haven’t developed a detailed confessional, and we treat our theology like a salad bar. Who knows what’s on the plate today? What fad will start now? Who will get shifted to make room for Current Superstar or Current Relative in the leadership position? I fear for my own church in wake after wake of this sloppy mess! This is like discovering a body in shallow grave behind someone’s barn, only for the cops to show up and find thousands of graves covering the entire acreage.
I am so heavy in heart and so filled with repulsion, I can’t breathe. I was frantically trying to pull out roots of bitterness, some I didn’t even know were there. This morning I gave up and pled with God for Him and Him alone to do the root pulling, because running on my own strength in trying to comprehend all of this is simply madness.
Dear God, let me not charge You in any of this…
Dear Jesus, intervene and save us. Lord, protect my marriage in all of this. Holy Spirit, come!
PK, peace will come in fits and starts, but it will come. It just won’t come at your bidding. Please remember God isn’t surprised by what you’re discovering, and wishes to cover you with his wings of protection. When I was coming out of SGM, I learned more than ever before, to run into Christ like a fortress and let him be identity and my protection. May you experience this same revelation and its peaceful result.
You wrote “…we treat our theology like a salad bar. Who knows what’s on the plate today? ” This has been going on since the beginning of PDI/SGM. If you had proposed full-bore Reformed theology in 1983, you would’ve been kicked out, just as quickly as someone today who might ask why the gospel isn’t preached “with signs and wonders following.”
Mahaney used to say, “Constant change is here to stay.” His reason for that was to get everyone used to continuing changes in leadership, home-group arrangements, etc. The real meaning went far deeper, as we now understand: everything was in a state of flux, with the exception of leadership being in 100% control, and able to change direction without accountability.
I was reviewing all of these prayers and was very overwhelmed with gratitude all over again.
Thanks again, everyone for your prayers, and please know I am still praying for you.
I have a job offer (there will be a few months before it starts) that seems fairly ideal for accomodating my health issues, so I am praising God this morning. He’s still worthy of my praise in what I percieve as valleys, but this morning is special as a crack of dawn seems to be breaking through (not so much financially as it is spiritually).
I still have a heavy heart for my church and SGM in general, as I pray for reform, even if it comes in sputtering at different levels.
God used the situation with my former pastor’s (forced) resignation/reassignment/whatever to increase my reliance on Him, and not fall victim to the aftershocks of cults of personality I so vehemently preach against on this blog. God is faithful!
I wanted to offer a praise report as well. Many of you read earlier about my daughter with digestive issues. She has been through tests and prescriptions with no help. Over the last few weeks, she has been using some over the counter medicines that her doctor recommended, plus some goodies from the health food store. For the first time in quite a while, she is eating and processing food normally. She still has some stomach sensitivities, but there is distinct improvement. :) Thank the Lord!
I haven’t posted in a while. Some of the drive-by guys were just a bit too much for me, so I’ve been taking a break.
If you think of it, please say a little prayer for me. I’ve been out of SG for a while, but I’m really dealing with some overwhelming feelings of confusion and fear. I know it was the right thing to do (leaving), but it’s still so hard when most of my friends and family are still there.
Hi Summer, good to see you again!!
I just prayed for you - I know how very hard it is to leave. Those conflicting feelings are hard to deal with sometimes! It does get better though after awhile.
Hey Summer,
I was actually thinking about you today, wondering where you have been. I think it is pretty normal for these emotions to come in waves. I’ll be praying for you!
Gracie! I was told by a VERY reliable source that today is a special day!
Happy Birthday, Dear Gracie!!!
May God continue to pour His amazing grace into your life in the coming year(s)!
I love you! (and owe you an email… life is kinda crazy right now, and I’ve been hit and miss around The Refuge… mostly miss… but I can’t wait to get back to having our “coffee chats”!)
Oh, I see. I just went over to the survivors blog and discovered my sister’s message! Isn’t she sweet? (Even if she outed me on my birthday - at least she didn’t say how old!)
I have been sidelined by recent illness and personal matters (a perfect storm of sorts)… apologies for the MIA status (Jim I have emailed you with the details).
I covet everyone’s prayers and promise to post later today or tomorrow.
You are in my thoughts, today. During the difficult times, we get to see the Lord as our Comforter. It is precious to know Him like that. I hope you sense His presence in a special way this week.
Hello all,
I would really appreciate your prayers right now as I feel as if I’m fighting a battle, with myself, with God and with fellow Christians around me. My eyes are really being opened to the problems caused by the church I’ve grown up in and how it has affected me and others around me in negative ways and it’s caused turmoil and angst in my soul as I wrestle every day with what to do and when to act. I’ve silently started looking for other churches in the area, but haven’t gotten the chance to visit one yet. What makes this all the more hard is God seems so far away during this time, I find myself asking, is this really the best time to leave my church and find another one? But then I argue with myself that maybe a different church, a more grace-filled church would allow me to get closer to God. My Christian friends have been little help as they are all distracted with their own lives, leaving me feeling more alone than ever. I’m really at a loss of what to do other than pray, which doesn’t seem like its helping much either.
dear saints, please intercede for me before our Father for peace and discernment, and more importantly for me to feel his presence beside me, holding my hand and guiding me.
Dear Eponine,
I understand how you feel, many of us here do, for we remember those feelings well from our own experiences. I will pray for you too, my dear little sister.
You are in my prayers! I definately understand how you are feeling as I have just left my church. I have spent my whole life there (I am 20 years old) and have never know anything else. I can relate to those questons you have, as I’ve been considering that for the past year, and even now still wonder if I made the right choice. God has been good though and provided me with friends who I’ve been able to talk to and walk this out with. If you ever want to talk please feel free to email me at notw.forsaken@gmail.com
you wrote: But then I argue with myself that maybe a different church, a more grace-filled church would allow me to get closer to God.
Can I just encourage you, beloved, that all you need to get closer to God you already have? It is your relationship to Him through the finished work of Christ - HE is our HIgh Priest - we need no one else to speak for us, to teach us, intercede for us, or be our confessor, this is not the role of the Church, it is the role of Christ that the church has usurped.
Psalm 16 comes to mind, one verse in particular verse 11: “You will make known to me the path of life;In Your presence is fullness of joy; In Your right hand there are pleasures forever.”
SGM (and many other churches and denominations) make you think you can’t be close to God without them, or you can’t have real joy apart from the Body - but both are a lie. Read God’s Word, and find rest, peace, joy, passion, purpose, satisfaction, accountability, and guidance into all truth in the Person of Jesus Christ.
He won’t let you down. Just look to Him! I’m praying for you - Juli
I was out of the loop here for a while, apparently when PK went MIA..can someone tell me why he isn’t around anymore? Is he sick? Did the SGM leadership figure out who he was and approach him? What’s going on with him?
Thank you all for your prayers and support during this confusing time. I’m glad to know prayers are being lifted up to the Father from his people.
Juli, thanks for the reminder that all I really need is God. This can be so hard to remember, especially when God seems so far away. I tend to tell myself that I must be doing something wrong to make him not want to be near, or that the teaching at church is too dry or that i need to make a list of things to do to get closer to him. But that is legalistic. Our God isn’t a God of rules and steps to follow, he is a God who loves us unconditionally.
I’m so grateful for a few friends who have grown up in the same church and still understand what I’m talking about! Stuck, thanks for the invitation to talk to you… I may take you up on that. Thanks!
PK,
I hope you are doing alright, we miss you around here!
PK has some health issues (the details of which I do not completely know,)
I know he is struggling.
I miss him and his contribution to this discussion. I find his writing to be challenging and helpful. I hope he gets strong and healthy enough to return to this forum.
June 19th, 2008 at 8:33 am
I know of pastors who have informed their care group leaders of this site and the uncensored site. I don’t know how they prefaced them but I do pray that God will use these two sited to reveal truth and bring repentance beginning with the leaders. I pray for courage and boldness for those who bring concerns to their leaders. For the leaders, I pray for humility and a softness to receive what they hear and that they sincerely care for those who bring their concerns. I pray that unity in the church will be achieved and that more people will be drawn closer to Jesus. May God receive all of the glory.
June 19th, 2008 at 8:55 am
Beauty from Ashes,
Thank you for posting. Welcome!
Your prayer is our prayer as well.
Carole and I join with you in praying to this end.
Grace and Peace,
Jim
June 19th, 2008 at 12:38 pm
Hi Beauty from Ashes. I like your “name”!
Jim and Carole,
Is it okay to post personal prayer requests here, unrelated to PDI/SGM?
June 19th, 2008 at 12:48 pm
Gracie,
Absolutely!
That would actually be my preference, although this is a “no rules” section, so my preference should carry no weight here.
I said all that to say-yes! Please!
Jim
June 19th, 2008 at 2:10 pm
I am very thankful.
That’s all. I’ll pray for people with needs.
June 20th, 2008 at 10:59 am
Okay, everyone. I have a prayer requests. My daughter, 22, is having some health issues that the doctor cannot get to the bottom of. She has had what they thought was a bleeding ulcer and all manner of digestion problems. After having done an endoscopy and a gall bladder ultrasound with the results being completely normal, the doctor is on a watch and see mode for now. Meanwhile, my daughter has terrible, unexplained pain on a fairly regular basis. We need wisdom from God on what to do next.
I can’t tell you what it means to me to be able to put this request out there to folks I know will pray. Thank you so much.
June 20th, 2008 at 11:47 am
Dear, Sweet Gracie!
Jim and I are praying here!
Keep us posted, okay?
Love you,
Carole
June 20th, 2008 at 12:58 pm
I pray the doctor will have good discernment and is able to give your daughter an accurate diagnosis quickly.
I also pray she is relieved of her pain, well, to the extent she can and still get a good diagnosis.
I pray for you, that you would have peace in this situation.
June 21st, 2008 at 3:56 pm
Gracie,
I’m lifting your daughter up!
June 22nd, 2008 at 7:21 am
Thank you all so much.
June 27th, 2008 at 10:07 am
Hey all!
June 27th, 2008 at 4:01 pm
Gracie,
That’s good news!
June 27th, 2008 at 5:53 pm
praying for your daughter Gracie -
so, what do we think is actually told to their cgl and pastors about these sites? I am thinking it is only a manner of time before my former pastor becomes aware of my blog where I posted all his emails to me! Are we labeled as “under discipline?, slanderous, etc.
June 27th, 2008 at 11:21 pm
Concerned-seems like a lot to me, being less than 3 weeks old.
From Monday to Friday at midnight-11648 page views and 3090 unique visitors.
June 28th, 2008 at 8:35 am
Concerned,
June 28th, 2008 at 10:48 am
Tylee,
Click on her name (Concerned) at the top of her comment…
June 28th, 2008 at 5:04 pm
I tried to e-mail you Carole, and I wasn’t sure if you were getting my off-line attemps.
Thank you for the further instruction.
July 30th, 2008 at 3:59 am
Could you guys please pray for my friend “Sally” who is still in the SGM church I recently left? I went over to her house tonight and we had a four hour talk about the Lord, our walks, SGM, the church, all kinds of stuff. It was VERY obiovus the Lord has been busy with her heart - which is a praise - but she said her husband (who is a considering PC next year) made a comment recently about her “not becoming anti-Sovereign Grace” - she said she wasn’t sure why he said this.
I asked if anyone had talked to her about our friendship, because when
July 30th, 2008 at 9:24 am
You got it, Concerned!
August 4th, 2008 at 11:55 pm
A praise report!! Some time ago I asked you guys for prayer for my friends who are still in the SGM church I left - my close friend’s husband was planning to go to Pastor’s College next year…he went to the Worship Conference at the “Mother Church” this past weekend. While he was gone I spent some time with my friend, “Sally” and we prayed that this weekend the Lord would give her husband direction - to close the door to SGM PC (if that was His will), and to give some sort of direction for his calling.
I’ve been very concerned for this young man and his wife…I love them dearly..and oculd see the legalism building and them falling deeper into bondage. well, she told me today that he came back from the conference saying he doesn’t think he is supposed to be a Sovereign Grace pastor, but he still feels called to pastor, but won’t be going to PC next year.
PRAISE GOD!!!! Thanks for your prayers! Please continue to remember them and ask the Lord to reveal, redeem, and restore “the years the locusts have taken” since being at SGM. They are not planning to leave the church that I know of, although the wife is praying for the Lord’s leading whatever that may be. Seems He is opening her eyes and she is hungering for Him, which is causing her to think of “other things” non-SGM. But they have a long hard battle ahead of them..
To God be the Glory..great things He has done!!
August 5th, 2008 at 11:06 pm
concerned,
From your comment a bit above about pastors finding out about these blogs…
My pastors are already aware of them and have seen them.
I’m curious, what are your first thoughts in them knowing and seeing what is written here? You said something about them seeing the emails you’d posted… does that scare you? Does that make you feel bad for posting them? Or maybe the opposite?
August 6th, 2008 at 12:39 pm
Pennylane, what is the response from the pastor’s when they hear of the blogs? My guess would be similar to the Wizard of Oz when he was exposed: “Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!”
It used to put me in a panic when I thought about what my pastors would think, or what they may be saying about me. But I pressed on, posting the emails. If you read my blog you’ll see a real fear manifest at one point when my pastor emailed me out of the blue several weeks after I left. I thought I was going to die of fear! The Lord used it to show me I still had fear of man, and needed to cultivate a fear of HIM. When we fear GOd, what can man do to us?
I am of course not saying I would do anything not prompted by love for others. I don’t have an agenda for vengeance or exposing. The Lord does that. But thorugh my words I pray others will be set free. All I can do is speak the truth, give my testimony, and pray the Lord works.
I don’t feel bad or fearful anymore for posting anything. It is the truth. And the truth sets us free.
August 6th, 2008 at 1:59 pm
It’s funny-I can only assume, and Penny can help us out here, that the pastors are telling the sheep to ignore the blogs to remain unsullied.
The funny part is, the pastors are reading.
I’d love to post the google search terms that people are using to see if we’re talking about them.
August 6th, 2008 at 2:20 pm
…go for it, Jim.
August 6th, 2008 at 2:59 pm
I think everyone in SGM should take a test. A test to see if you are in bondage. If, after taking the test you find you are, then get free! (and some may be able to do this and not leave their churches, who knows) But at least have the courage to take the test, what do you have to lose except the chains that bind you? At least you’ll now one way or another if you are or not.
So to you guys who are still in an SGM church: The test would be to abstain from any and all Sovereign Grace Ministries activities for one month. No care group, no Sunday meetings, no fellowship with others from the SGM church. No reading blogs from SGM people. Fast from all things Sovereign Grace for one month. Be willing to sacrifice what they call ”dearest place on earth” for the real dearest place on earth: being in the presence of your Father. No books from other authors, just read the Word of God. No sovereign grace pastor’s sermons, or SGM music. Just the Lord and you. Only fellowship with people who don’t go to your church. Just try it and see what happens.
If you find yourself in a panic because you are afraid you will fall away, or are worried what others would think of you if you did these things, then that is your first sign you are in bondage. No need to go further. In other words, if you aren’t willing to fast from all things SGM then ask yourself why? My guess is you’ll find you are in bondage from the start and that is why you are unwilling.
August 7th, 2008 at 12:38 pm
Hey everyone,
My brother (Jordan) is going under the knife this afternoon: a few months ago the tendon on his right bicep detached from… well… wherever it connects around his shoulder. He’s since been dealing with a lot of pain as doctors tried to tell him it was no big deal, but he got an MRI a few days ago and now they’re performing surgery this afternoon.
This has been quite an ordeal for him, especially dealing with “authorities” who wouldn’t listen to his insistence that this was a serious problem (anyone here able to relate to that?).
So, I just want to ask y’all to please pray that the surgery will go smoothly and that his recovery will be quick and complete.
August 7th, 2008 at 1:01 pm
Praying Travis! Wow, that must be so painful, I sure pray that God will use the doctors to heal him totally!
August 7th, 2008 at 1:44 pm
I’ll be praying too, Travis.
August 7th, 2008 at 1:52 pm
Travis-thanks for sharing, and thank you to those who have committed to pray.
Count me in.
Since I no longer have categories, I’ll make this thread a top of page link this weekend.
I’d love to see more of this!
August 7th, 2008 at 2:35 pm
Concerned,
Good idea and even better than “No SGM” for a month, I’d recommend periodically going to a different church for a month - something different from what I am accustomed to. I think it would be useful exercise for any believer. There are several benefits:
1) Get to see how God works in different setting and by various means
2) I am often tempted to become attached to certain ideas, preferences, and unwritten rules over time - it’s human nature. Having my sacred cows slaughtered on a regular basis encourages humility, wisdom, and reliance on God
3) Make new friends
4) Hear a different perspective on the same topics you’ve been hearing about for years
5) Build confidence in your relationship with God as you see Him work in your life in any context
One of the issues at SGM that became increasingly problematic for me was the isolation from most of the body of Christ. SGM will not work with anyone they do not agree with within a very narrow set of criteria. When I got involved in missions, I encountered a completely different culture of collaboration and cooperation. Also, I’ve switched churches twice in 25 years, and I’m contemplating a third move now. Each time I have had to relearn how to do ministry and how to view church polity.
I’m not recommending becoming butterflies, going here and there without committed friendships and working relationships, just that I need to get out more often, and that it is very health to do so.
Which brings me to pastoral care. SGM has always justified its small world as “protecting the sheep”, but who are they protecting? Paul said to the Corinthians, “You have many guardians but few fathers.” As a father, I want my son to be confident in any situation, so I intentionally expose him different a and sometimes challenging experiences. I’m always there to spot him if he falls, but I love it when he conquers a new challenge and beams, “Wow, that was cool Dad!”
I’m not just bashing SGM, but asking wider question. Do we need to re-thing the nature of pastoral care? As leaders, are we tempted to simply guard people like hired nannies and make sure they behave, or are we fathering spiritual children? I know I have been guilty of the former, but would prefer to do the later.
Finally, I’ve been listening to Bible on CD, and I’m in Corinthians right now. Even though Paul gave quite a few specific command and rebukes, the whole tone of his discourse is a loving and affectionate appeal, knowing the risk that they could choose to respond or not respond. Fortunately they did for the most part. I’ve not found much of the father type of apostleship in US churches. Does anyone get what I am saying?
August 7th, 2008 at 2:38 pm
Jim, if you would rather move this repose to “The fruit of good pastoring, that would be ok. Sorry if I got off topic.
August 7th, 2008 at 2:48 pm
Off topic is never a problem here, Greg.
If you want to repost in another thread, I’ll delete this one, if you like.
August 13th, 2008 at 11:31 am
Any news from Travis on how his brother is doing?
August 13th, 2008 at 12:17 pm
Oh yeah, good point: an updated might be appreciated.
My brother’s surgery was postponed from Thursday to (last) Friday, and afterward the doctor told my sister-in-law (bro was still conked out) that it went better than he had anticipated! Little brother called me on their way back home to say thanks for the prayers, and while he’s looking at a 6-week recovery period, he’s already back at work.
So there’s my praise for the week! (See, it was all intentional…)
August 13th, 2008 at 12:34 pm
Thanks Travis!
How cool is that?
August 14th, 2008 at 7:49 am
That’s really good news, Travis. Thank the Lord!
August 14th, 2008 at 11:07 am
Hi Folks:
I am really under it right now, and simply need the joy of the Lord. Protracted health issues aside, after reading the posts regarding a former SGM pastor of mine, I feel my hand is being forced to reveal my identity. I keep vascillating whether or not to reveal it, as sharing even mundane details of my story will definitely reveal it to some here, and I fear the revelation will have rippling effect in the SGM church I now attend.
I may be blowing all of this out of proportion, but as you can see, FEAR has become a part of my vocabulary in new way… I’m just not able to endure all of this, and need your prayers. The ice is breaking.
…pk
August 14th, 2008 at 11:11 am
PK-you are in our prayers.
Again, if you ever want to talk (I keep all offline conversations completely private) send me a note with your number and the best time to call.
sgmrefuge@gmail.com
August 14th, 2008 at 11:12 am
Oh PK, I’ll pray for you!
{{{{{{{{{{{{ }}}}}}}}}}}}}}} <——hugs
August 14th, 2008 at 11:13 am
PK-SGM reads this blog. Consider carefully.
August 14th, 2008 at 11:16 am
PK,
I have been reading your posts both here and on the survivors blog. From my own experience in PDI, I remember the fear you are feeling quite well. Be assured we are praying for you.
August 14th, 2008 at 11:47 am
PK,
May God fill you with His peace and make clear His path… may He remove the fear from your mind and heart.
Father, I ask that You accomplish these things, that You would speak to PK and guide and direct him in this matter. May Your voice be the One Voice that overrides all others. Comfort PK, grant him Your peace and Your unrelenting joy… shower him with Your presence, lead him in Your way. In the precious Name of Your Son, Amen.
August 14th, 2008 at 12:04 pm
Thank you all for your prayers. I will consider carefully, Jim, and keep my trap shut for now. I’m thinking the wisest course of action is to allow the Holy Spirit governance of my emotions, as He is the great Comforter and is wisest of all.
It is my hope that if we at SGM indeed read these blogs, that there is a sobering up taking place right now rather than a Rat Squad behavior of getting ready to bust people.
I used to be proud of “Reformed in Essence with Charismatic Distinctives,” but this has left way too many loopholes to wiggle around both branches of theology.
Again, I earnestly believe the two can be reconciled, but the attempt to do so at SGM has been vague, to say the least… almost as if there is a deliberate plodding so that an “anything goes” style of leadership has become cancerous and is now eating itself from the outside-in; an implosion, if you will. No wonder conspiracy theories are constantly flying! We haven’t developed a detailed confessional, and we treat our theology like a salad bar. Who knows what’s on the plate today? What fad will start now? Who will get shifted to make room for Current Superstar or Current Relative in the leadership position? I fear for my own church in wake after wake of this sloppy mess! This is like discovering a body in shallow grave behind someone’s barn, only for the cops to show up and find thousands of graves covering the entire acreage.
I am so heavy in heart and so filled with repulsion, I can’t breathe. I was frantically trying to pull out roots of bitterness, some I didn’t even know were there. This morning I gave up and pled with God for Him and Him alone to do the root pulling, because running on my own strength in trying to comprehend all of this is simply madness.
Dear God, let me not charge You in any of this…
Dear Jesus, intervene and save us. Lord, protect my marriage in all of this. Holy Spirit, come!
…pk
August 14th, 2008 at 12:16 pm
PK-I was where you’re at 3 years ago.
I was bitter for around 18 months-and one day, it was gone!
Our God is rich in mercy! You have and will receive more grace.
I promise.
August 14th, 2008 at 3:59 pm
PK, peace will come in fits and starts, but it will come. It just won’t come at your bidding. Please remember God isn’t surprised by what you’re discovering, and wishes to cover you with his wings of protection. When I was coming out of SGM, I learned more than ever before, to run into Christ like a fortress and let him be identity and my protection. May you experience this same revelation and its peaceful result.
You wrote “…we treat our theology like a salad bar. Who knows what’s on the plate today? ” This has been going on since the beginning of PDI/SGM. If you had proposed full-bore Reformed theology in 1983, you would’ve been kicked out, just as quickly as someone today who might ask why the gospel isn’t preached “with signs and wonders following.”
Mahaney used to say, “Constant change is here to stay.” His reason for that was to get everyone used to continuing changes in leadership, home-group arrangements, etc. The real meaning went far deeper, as we now understand: everything was in a state of flux, with the exception of leadership being in 100% control, and able to change direction without accountability.
September 3rd, 2008 at 10:47 am
Beloved:
I was reviewing all of these prayers and was very overwhelmed with gratitude all over again.
Thanks again, everyone for your prayers, and please know I am still praying for you.
I have a job offer (there will be a few months before it starts) that seems fairly ideal for accomodating my health issues, so I am praising God this morning. He’s still worthy of my praise in what I percieve as valleys, but this morning is special as a crack of dawn seems to be breaking through (not so much financially as it is spiritually).
I still have a heavy heart for my church and SGM in general, as I pray for reform, even if it comes in sputtering at different levels.
God used the situation with my former pastor’s (forced) resignation/reassignment/whatever to increase my reliance on Him, and not fall victim to the aftershocks of cults of personality I so vehemently preach against on this blog. God is faithful!
I pray this day is a blessing for everyone here…
…pk
September 3rd, 2008 at 11:50 am
pk,
yayyyyyyyyyyy about the job offer!!!
:) 
September 3rd, 2008 at 2:57 pm
That is wonderful news, PK!
I wanted to offer a praise report as well. Many of you read earlier about my daughter with digestive issues. She has been through tests and prescriptions with no help. Over the last few weeks, she has been using some over the counter medicines that her doctor recommended, plus some goodies from the health food store. For the first time in quite a while, she is eating and processing food normally. She still has some stomach sensitivities, but there is distinct improvement. :) Thank the Lord!
And thank you for your prayers!
September 3rd, 2008 at 3:20 pm
Gracie,
Thanks for the update!
God is good!
September 10th, 2008 at 11:11 pm
Hey Everyone,
I haven’t posted in a while. Some of the drive-by guys were just a bit too much for me, so I’ve been taking a break.
If you think of it, please say a little prayer for me. I’ve been out of SG for a while, but I’m really dealing with some overwhelming feelings of confusion and fear. I know it was the right thing to do (leaving), but it’s still so hard when most of my friends and family are still there.
Thanks so much =)
love,
Summer
September 11th, 2008 at 1:00 am
Hi Summer, good to see you again!!
I just prayed for you - I know how very hard it is to leave. Those conflicting feelings are hard to deal with sometimes! It does get better though after awhile.
{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}
September 11th, 2008 at 1:01 am
Hey Summer,
I was actually thinking about you today, wondering where you have been. I think it is pretty normal for these emotions to come in waves. I’ll be praying for you!
September 11th, 2008 at 3:29 pm
Summer,
Ditto on what Gracie said! You’ll get through it, especially if you grab hold of Jesus and keep focused on Him. We’re here for you!
September 11th, 2008 at 5:28 pm
Sweet Summer… (that should be the name of a song!)
Praying for you here!
September 11th, 2008 at 5:34 pm
Gracie! I was told by a VERY reliable source that today is a special day!
Happy Birthday, Dear Gracie!!!
May God continue to pour His amazing grace into your life in the coming year(s)!
I love you! (and owe you an email… life is kinda crazy right now, and I’ve been hit and miss around The Refuge… mostly miss… but I can’t wait to get back to having our “coffee chats”!)
September 11th, 2008 at 7:33 pm
Aw, thanks Carole. I am intrigued as to your source. If it is who I think, I’m THRILLED to hear she is in contact with you!
Love you, my friend.
September 11th, 2008 at 8:01 pm
Oh, I see. I just went over to the survivors blog and discovered my sister’s message! Isn’t she sweet? (Even if she outed me on my birthday - at least she didn’t say how old!)
September 11th, 2008 at 8:04 pm
Thank you, ladies, for all of your sweet encouragement and prayers =) Some of those “waves” are really like tsunamis from time to time….
And Happy Birthday, Gracie! Hope you are having a wonderful celebration =)
September 12th, 2008 at 2:05 pm
HAPPY BIRTHDAY, GRACIE!
September 12th, 2008 at 2:41 pm
Happy Birthday from me, too, Gracie!
November 6th, 2008 at 8:43 am
Thanks everyone for your prayers regarding my health!
I have a new prayer request/praise report:
Praise report: I joined a bible study within the church.
Prayer for: It ain’t authorized, but nobody has made a stink yet.
It’s an open forum, not led by anyone per se… and it’s good.
Thanks all,
…pk
December 1st, 2008 at 9:52 am
Hello Beloved:
I have been sidelined by recent illness and personal matters (a perfect storm of sorts)… apologies for the MIA status (Jim I have emailed you with the details).
I covet everyone’s prayers and promise to post later today or tomorrow.
…pk
December 1st, 2008 at 12:12 pm
PK,
You are in my thoughts, today. During the difficult times, we get to see the Lord as our Comforter. It is precious to know Him like that. I hope you sense His presence in a special way this week.
December 2nd, 2008 at 9:39 am
Praying for you, PK. I hope things turn around soon.
December 2nd, 2008 at 4:17 pm
PT-
Been praying for you-figured your absence was due to illness or otherwise.
Peace-MM
December 3rd, 2008 at 8:56 am
PK,
Sorry for your current trials. Praying as well.
December 29th, 2008 at 4:18 am
Hello all,
I would really appreciate your prayers right now as I feel as if I’m fighting a battle, with myself, with God and with fellow Christians around me. My eyes are really being opened to the problems caused by the church I’ve grown up in and how it has affected me and others around me in negative ways and it’s caused turmoil and angst in my soul as I wrestle every day with what to do and when to act. I’ve silently started looking for other churches in the area, but haven’t gotten the chance to visit one yet. What makes this all the more hard is God seems so far away during this time, I find myself asking, is this really the best time to leave my church and find another one? But then I argue with myself that maybe a different church, a more grace-filled church would allow me to get closer to God. My Christian friends have been little help as they are all distracted with their own lives, leaving me feeling more alone than ever. I’m really at a loss of what to do other than pray, which doesn’t seem like its helping much either.
dear saints, please intercede for me before our Father for peace and discernment, and more importantly for me to feel his presence beside me, holding my hand and guiding me.
December 29th, 2008 at 4:42 am
Eponine, <<<<<<<<HUGS>>>>>>>>> Go in peace, my sister.
December 29th, 2008 at 5:24 am
Eponine-
I will pray that God shows you the way thru this time of hurt and decision. May God’s love guide and protect you.
peace-mm
December 29th, 2008 at 9:11 am
Dear Eponine,
I understand how you feel, many of us here do, for we remember those feelings well from our own experiences. I will pray for you too, my dear little sister.
December 29th, 2008 at 12:22 pm
Eponine,
You are in my prayers! I definately understand how you are feeling as I have just left my church. I have spent my whole life there (I am 20 years old) and have never know anything else. I can relate to those questons you have, as I’ve been considering that for the past year, and even now still wonder if I made the right choice. God has been good though and provided me with friends who I’ve been able to talk to and walk this out with. If you ever want to talk please feel free to email me at notw.forsaken@gmail.com
Beth
December 30th, 2008 at 1:05 am
epi-
you wrote: But then I argue with myself that maybe a different church, a more grace-filled church would allow me to get closer to God.
Can I just encourage you, beloved, that all you need to get closer to God you already have? It is your relationship to Him through the finished work of Christ - HE is our HIgh Priest - we need no one else to speak for us, to teach us, intercede for us, or be our confessor, this is not the role of the Church, it is the role of Christ that the church has usurped.
Psalm 16 comes to mind, one verse in particular verse 11: “You will make known to me the path of life;In Your presence is fullness of joy; In Your right hand there are pleasures forever.”
SGM (and many other churches and denominations) make you think you can’t be close to God without them, or you can’t have real joy apart from the Body - but both are a lie. Read God’s Word, and find rest, peace, joy, passion, purpose, satisfaction, accountability, and guidance into all truth in the Person of Jesus Christ.
He won’t let you down. Just look to Him! I’m praying for you - Juli
December 30th, 2008 at 8:49 am
E,
You have my prayers as well. I pray you make this transition into a grace-based walk.
And has anyone heard from PK lately, I’m remembering to pray for him as well.
December 30th, 2008 at 1:29 pm
I was out of the loop here for a while, apparently when PK went MIA..can someone tell me why he isn’t around anymore? Is he sick? Did the SGM leadership figure out who he was and approach him? What’s going on with him?
December 30th, 2008 at 4:27 pm
Thank you all for your prayers and support during this confusing time. I’m glad to know prayers are being lifted up to the Father from his people.
Thanks!
Juli, thanks for the reminder that all I really need is God. This can be so hard to remember, especially when God seems so far away. I tend to tell myself that I must be doing something wrong to make him not want to be near, or that the teaching at church is too dry or that i need to make a list of things to do to get closer to him. But that is legalistic. Our God isn’t a God of rules and steps to follow, he is a God who loves us unconditionally.
I’m so grateful for a few friends who have grown up in the same church and still understand what I’m talking about! Stuck, thanks for the invitation to talk to you… I may take you up on that.
PK,
I hope you are doing alright, we miss you around here!
December 31st, 2008 at 9:43 am
PK has some health issues (the details of which I do not completely know,)
I know he is struggling.
I miss him and his contribution to this discussion. I find his writing to be challenging and helpful. I hope he gets strong and healthy enough to return to this forum.