This post (at 650+ comments) is now read-only, and closed to comments. “Your Story 2″ is now open for comments here.
This thread is for you.
Posters-there are no rules. Change the name you normally use if you like. Say whatever you like with no fear of judgment or correction. Say what you want, in any way that you choose. This is our own little no spin zone.
For those who choose to reply to posts, let love rule. No correction allowed here. If you must puke your venom at someone, jump over here and address me. I won’t delete it, so the whole world will be able to behold it’s glory forever. OK, that was over the top. Actually a few thousand people a day for as long as this blog remains.
If I see a hint of “get over it”, or “it’s your fault” in this category, I’ll delete your comment. In Christian love, of course.
Posters, remember what the great theologian William Wallace (played by Mel Gibson) said.
FREEDOM!
Hey all,
This is my first comment here – so great to find another blog dedicated to seeing broken lives restored! Really really grateful for your effort and your time to do this.
I did post my whole un-edited testimony over on “SGM Survivors” so I won’t re-hash the whole thing. I thought maybe I would use the “Wednesday – Your Story” opportunity to say where I am now. I’m living in a city 100 miles north of Bristol in the UK where I went to the SGM church, and the SGM influence still feels so heavy over my life – because my family go to the church.
They not only go to the church but my family are the sort who make the church their life, their priority and the leaders are advocates before God in their eyes. So I’ve recently been sent a sermon from Covenant Life Church to listen to on “Bitterness” by Grant someone or other – I’m sure it’s a hint that I should be just “getting over it”.
What happened in short to those who don’t know me at all, is that I went to the SGM church in Bristol for 2 years and was “disfellowshipped” from the church. The reason? I became very depressed and began damaging myself because I was struggling with my sexuality and didn’t feel I deserved to be in church.
I was stupid enough to go to the leaders and to tell them my entire story unedited. The leaders imposed 4 “ultimatums” on me that I MUST conform to or they would refuse to help me, and worse things would happen. Those ultimatums involved moving back to my parents home and essentially being under “house-arrest”, as well as cutting off all non-Christian friends.
I may have been depressed and desperate but I knew these ultimatums had absolutely nothing of God about them and everything of human control and authoritarianism. I went back to the leaders and told them I wouldn’t be obeying these “ultimatums”. To say they were shocked was an understatement.
I got yelled at in my face by the care group leader who was there to “support” the senior pastor. (I wasn’t offered the chance to have anyone there to support me). The senior pastor then told me if I walked out the door, I would be “disfellowshipped” and would be “handed over to Satan”. Church members would be told to avoid me and I was banned from all church meetings. Also they would write to every church in Bristol telling them of my “sins”.
(Let me state for the record – I was NOT living in sexual immorality, and made no confession that I was. The senior pastor just “suspected” I was living in sin and admitted he had no proof).
So here I am 3 years later, and I made an attempt to reconcile this issue (pretty much following the Peacemaker suggestions).
My younger sisters were getting baptised at the SGM church and so I emailed the older senior pastor to ask permission for me to go. He emailed back and said I could come, but felt a meeting would be appropriate to “restore a situation that was God-glorifying”.
I emailed back and said I was happy to come to a meeting, but that I would be bringing a pastor friend of mine to support me. I also made the point that while I would ask forgiveness for any bitter feelings I held against them, I wouldn’t be asking forgiveness for what they felt I did – as I still felt I had done nothing wrong. I was surprised to hear nothing more from the SGM pastor – and haven’t to this day.
So I guess my story is that I still feel in no man’s land. My family feel I should email again and ask permission again for some meeting to restore a “God-glorifying” situation – but I still haven’t received a response to my previous email! And of course, I am receiving sermons from Covenant Life Church – the mother ship – about sorting out my bitterness!!
Enuf said … thanks again for this forum!
Okay, this isn’t really my story… Jim already shared our personal experience with our SGC, so I won’t repeat it. (Many of you are jumping for joy right now! You don’t have to read another long post!)
BUT… I do have to share this…
What I watched my husband go through during that time in our lives was very difficult. Knowing there were “problems” that weren’t being dealt with, much less acknowledged, by our pastor… well, let me just say it was not easy to sit back and watch it unfold. His obvious lack of care and concern for the issues Jim was bringing to him was bizarre, to say the least.
This is a guy that Jim looked upon as a brother (family, as well as a brother in the Lord), and to see his lackadaisical demeanor towards the matters that were so obviously important to Jim was just unreal. I mean, when someone comes to you and pours out their heart to you, voicing not only personal concerns, but doctrinal error and concern for the road you are walking down as well, do you just blow them off? I hope not.
And his wife, who I thought was a very good friend of mine, started calling my other friends wanting to know if I had “spoken poorly of her or the church”. I THOUGHT we were friends… I felt as though she were a member of my family. So why didn’t she call ME and ask me whether I was talking smack? That’s what I would have done… confronted the alleged perpetrator, especially if she was a friend. That’s not what happened.
Methinks the reason it happened that way was more of an underlying factor of wanting to besmirch mine and Jim’s reputation with others, and to ensure that others would think poorly of us.
And then the subtle shunning started. First, it was just the pastor and his wife, and the associate pastor and his wife that were acting “weird” around us. Then it spread to the care group leaders and their wives… then the “wanna be leaders”, and so forth and so on. But Jim was told repeatedly that this was not the case, that we weren’t being shunned, that it just was not happening. (Apparently, it was just our imagination. Ummm… yeah.) But it was happening. You can say one thing and do another, happens a lot. If they were angry with us for any perceived gossip and slander that was taking place from mine and Jim’s mouths (which didn’t happen), why not talk to us as friends and fellow Christians? Ask us instead of assuming it was true? And why did they turn their backs on us, becoming incommunicado, instead of giving us a chance to defend ourselves?
My opinion, humbly, of course, is either they were cowardly and afraid to confront us (which I don’t believe to be true), or they had an underlying reason for doing what they did… to get us out of their church and damage our relationships within our SGC. So that we wouldn’t take folks with us and start a new church. Which was never a desire of ours… we were too burnt out by that time to even think about doing something like that, but, also, we didn’t feel that it would be the right thing to do.
Other people have shared similar stories of their experiences at their old SGM churches. Same stuff, different day, only the names are different. I have come to the conclusion that this is modus operandi in SGM churches. It’s too coincidental that the same tactics and techniques used on us have been used on many others in other SGM churches all over the country. Coincidental? I think not. I think it is a widespread and customary maneuver on SGM’s part to “get rid of the perceived problem people within their ranks.” Questioning leadership is not tolerated, even if the questions are valid. That gets you the reputation of being problematic… therefore you must go. Is this biblical? I think not. Is this form of shunning biblical? I think not. Is the non-confrontation from the leadership biblical? I think not. Is the subtle form of the gossip and slander smear campaign the leadership waged against us biblical? I think not.
There needs to be reform in SGM and it’s churches. These things need to change. Not for us… we’ve already been there and done that. It’s for those involved in SGM or thinking of becoming a part of an SGM church.
This is the reality… these things could happen to you. I pray not, but I didn’t think it would ever happen to us, or the hundreds of folks out there, either.
But it did. And it will continue to happen until SGM changes their unbiblical methods.
Did I say you wouldn’t have to read another long post? Okay, I was on a roll and got “just a smidge” out of control. Couldn’t stop myself…
Jim and Carole,
Do you think these guys (the pastors) are taught this in the Pastor’s College? Are there any that did not go through the Pastor’s College (sometimes denom’s let you transfer your ordination in)?
I wonder about your pastor. On his bio, he’s lived in the area for 15 years, but just graduated from the PC in 2000. Since he graduated in 1990 with his undergrad, I am guessing that he pastored before SG (perhaps at that same church). Was he that way then? If he was not, then it would seem that he definately got it from the PC.
Carole,
One of the things that did the most damage in my own life at SGM was the way the leaders caused me to doubt my own abilities to hear God, or understand a situation. For you and Jim to be shunned and yet be told your were imagining it is weird but a tool of control that I saw in our SGM churches. Good thing you were strong enough in the Lord to see the falseness in what they were saying to you. It took me quite a number of years to finally understand that I HAD seen what I’d seen. I was in PDI/SGM since the young age of 18, and knew no other church. I was truly indoctrinated (though it happened slowly, over time). One day I was in a church that loved Jesus and His people. Several decades later, I was in a church that I didn’t recognize anymore. Yes, it happened that slowly.
I feel for the kids who grow up only knowing SGM, who have no idea they have little freedom in Christ, if any. For those kids, some of whom are now young adults, this site could be an open door to their prison cells. Their emergence into grace-filled lives might happen because of something someone says on this blog. If even one young person is set free to follow Jesus in the grace He bestows, without the bonds of legalism, then sgmrefuge would have truly lived up to its name! So, press on, speaking the truth in love, praying that others will hear and see!
Donn,
I know of one pastor, albeit not a senior, that never had to go to the PC.
I started an online journal of my journey out of my former SGM church and how difficult it has been for me. I left my SGM church “cold turkey” almost three months ago now after miraculously finding the SGMsurvivors blog online and God opening my eyes.
I am struggling this week. PLease pray for me! When there is more time and strength, I will share my story more. It is all very recent though, and my church was adopted into SGM and was not a church plant. It was adopted in during my time there. I had no idea what I was getting into, as many others can testify.
Concerned,
I’ve been praying for you! And will keep praying. Did you get my email?
Concerned,
Did you get my email? I sent it yesterday. We’re here for you, girl.
I’m praying too, Concerned.
Hi Donn,
I’ll have to answer your question with a non-answer. I don’t know if this is something that is taught in pastor’s college… there is no syllabus available to the “public” that I can find, anyway. But even if there were, I don’t think we would find “Shunning 101″ or “Heavy-Handed Control and Other Manipulative Tactics” listed on it.
As far as our pastor’s history … Jim wrote about that in one of his posts telling our story. He was a youth pastor when we met him, then started a church that he was sr. pastor of, which was adopted by SGM, and he subsequently went to pastor’s college.
Although, I don’t know what is taught there, I do know that SGM has leadership conferences and the like for further learning opportunities for their pastors.
I also know that when our pastor ran into a “problem”, he always sought advice from the elders above him… giving me reason to think that the advice given him by them was what he walked out. This information increases my belief that these unbiblical practices are taught (and learned)by SGM leadership.
I’m sure Jim will want to add his input later, but I hope I filled in at least some of the info you were seeking!
Grace,
Carole
Donn,
I’ve answered many of your questions in my posts. I know that it’s long reading, but only 3 posts.
Regarding the PC-some pastors need to go and some don’t, based on the evaluation of other SGM pastors.
I think it would be very helpful if these pastors and “apostles” actually involved the members of any given candidates current or former church.
These guys are really so above it all, they have no need for input from the “sheep”.
I’ll never understand this mindset, and actions such as these totally cancel out all talk about humility, and makes the well practiced humble demeanor these guys all share a little hard to swallow.
Hi Concerned, (I was wondering about you…)
I know EXACTLY how you are feeling!… and it’s definitely not “fun!” Please know that there are many of us who are carrying you in our hearts during this difficult time of adjustment, and are lifting you up in prayer. But, even more, God is holding you in the palm of His mighty hand!… and there is no better place to be!
He is with you, He will never leave you. Trust Him and follow Him, He will not lead you astray! Keep us posted on how you’re doing… and you can always email me anytime at SGMRefugeATgmailDOTcom.
Hey Canary,
SGM thinking is a long, subtle process. You are “there” before you even realize where “there” is. And I agree with you regarding the SGM young adults… I hope that they find the freedom in the Lord that is there for them. I’ve said it before, but I will say it again… if even one person is helped by this site and those who post here, it will be worth it! Thanks for posting… I always get excited when I look in the “recent posts” section and see anew one from you! Keep ‘em coming!
And Hi Ellie!
And I can’t forget to say “hi!” to my dear, sweet friend Gracie! I can’t tell you guys how much this dear lady has impacted my life! She befriended me and ministered to me, she counselled me and encouraged me, she was quick to lovingly confront and correct me. The amount of time she spent writing me emails is, in itself, amazing! She is a very wise woman who loves God deeply and loves God’s people passionately. I am very blessed, indeed, to have her as my friend! I love you, dear Gracie!
Dan,
Welcome!
I read your story on the SGMSurvivors site a while ago, and it touched my heart and affected me deeply. It has evoked the same response in my heart today as I sat and read it again. Thanks for sharing it here. Keep us posted on your journey… and, it was said in a previous post… man will (and does!) fail us, but God never does!
Praying for you,
Carole
Yesterday I was ready to give a long version of my experiences in PDI/SGM. Today, I feel that I should come at it from a different angle, one that is very personal. Deep breath. Okay, here I go.
When I met my ex-Pastor and his wife, I was very young, only eighteen. I was also a new believer. I came from a broken family. I was raised under a form of legalism, where outward appearance was very important. I was, unknowingly, a prime candidate for the type of practice that became prevalant in “church” – namely, a little grace mixed with alot of rules and expectations. The very night I was baptized and walking in waves of love from the Lord, a brother told me not to get use to those feelings. It was now time for the hard work to begin. I came crashing down from the great heights of communion with God. So, church wasn’t going to be any different from the way I grew up. Well, at least it was familiar. I’d fit right in.
The Pastor and wife that I met began a church in someone’s basement. This was back in the late 70′s when non-denominations were a new thing. The leaders and members were young. With youth comes exhuberance and pride. Somehow, the zeal for God kept our prideful moments in check. We were committed to living a New Testament life, building a community of belivers who would reach out to the lost. Our focus soon drifted from Jesus to building His church. We were eventually adopted by a group known at the time as PDI (later became SGM), led by a very enthusiastic Christian man, Larry Tomzcak. This was around 1983, I think. Everything changed after that.
An “Apostle” was invited to take charge of our little church. The two Elders, men we loved and trusted, were asked to step down. They soon left. Care groups were reorganized. Our Pastor had to step down temporarily, to be proven by this Apostle, who took over everything. A church split followed, as well as church discipline of a few people who did not submit to the new “authority”.
I was married the following year, and my husband and I began our family. A very lonely, dry time followed. It was as though I had been put off into a dessert. My prideful, youthful days were disappearing under the reality of giving myself to my family. It was good for me, yet very lonely.
Over the years, our church began to change. Our Pastor was re-established. Teaching became more about doctrine than Jesus. Grace was preached for the first time, but hardly mentioned again. We were definitely under church rule. A hierarchy was established. Leaders became exclusive. My family moved into a neighborhood next to my husband’s good friend from college and his family. They were in leadership. Before our move, they told us that living near them didn’t mean we could be their best friends, as they had relationships to invest in with leadership. This wasn’t to be the last time we heard this sort of thing.
The Pastor’s time was spent more and more on people being molded for entrance into leadership. Our leaders became a part of a hierarchy where, if you needed a Pastor’s help, you had to go through your CG leader first. Pastors became more isolated from the little guys. They were busy investing their time in the people whom they felt were called to leadership. These people were the ones who showed the most submission, had their family life (at least on the surface) in order, and were tried and tested in loyalty to the upper leaders. Somehow, this made me believe that the only way God would truly be pleased with my husband and myself was if we became CG leaders some day. This meant man-pleasing, which I was very good at, due to my upbringing. There was also fear that we not step outside of the “umbrella of protection” established by our church. If only I had known then that this was mere superstition, as were some of the other practices in church.
Eventually, my husband was asked to lead a care group, although he was warned that a chance was being taken on him. I now realize that it wasn’t a matter of whether he was mature enough in Christ, as much as how loyal he was to leadership – this was the chance being taken. Funny, after we began leading a homegroup, it wasn’t like I imagined. There were people who needed care, but my love was just too small. I didn’t know how to support my husband.
Then, the Lord spoke to my husband about becoming part of a new churchplant down south. When he mentioned it to me, I was horrified. Leave our church, our friends? I had never been anywhere else. These were our people. I hardly new anyone going on the church plant. I had no faith for this.
We went to a conference put together for PDI churches. During worhsip one night, I told the Lord I’d be willing to follow my husband anywhere. The Lord suddenly filled me with faith to go on the church plant. It was complete. I never looked back. So amazing.
Well, our Pastor was agaisnt us moving. He made it clear that he had plans for us. We told him that we had to obey God’s word to us. He was not supportive, but did not try to stand in our way. We left without a church goodbye. The only people who saw us off were a few friends. We had been a part of this group for over ten years, yet left quietly, as though we no longer existed to the Pastor and his wife.
In our new home, we planted ourselves as quickly as possible. I was very insecure in my new environment. Pressure to perform became more overwhelming. Inside of myself, I could hear my heart crying out for something, but for what I did not know. I tried my hardest to meet the expectations placed on women in the church. With five young children under nine, I could never catch up on laundry, cleaning, or serving my husband. Then there were multiple “opportunities” to serve the church. We were actually signed up for different areas of service, such as children’s ministry, without being asked. Life was going in full motion, but I just kept getting much sadder, heavier, and more fearful than ever.
These are some things that I saw: PDI leaders moved from what seemed to be true humility in the Lord into a pride in their knowledge of doctrine. I saw them stop the Holy Spirit from moving amongst the people on several occassions. I saw more emphasis placed on obeying leaders rather than on walking in your own faith. Leaders became more distant. Women who had once been joyful began to look burdened. Their eyes began to show a sort of desperation. I felt that same thing all the time. Surely this isn’t all there was to knowing the Lord? Follow doctrine, tell your sins at care group, bake brownies for some function, be at every meeting (or you felt guilty), feeling guilty because you couldn’t keep up with everything expected of you…at one point our pastor even preached that we should have no junk drawers. Can you imagine a mother of five worrying about her junk drawers? I couldn’t even get the mountain of laundry done!
Now for confession: I do not blame all my dependency on leaders on the church. My heart was also to blame. I wanted a king to rule me, a man to walk my walk of faith. My ego was involved. I wanted to be the best of the best in my Christian walk. I wanted to be like the “holy men” who led us, because then I would be acceptable to God. This wrong thinking enabled my slavery to the rules of men. My need to please these leaders kept me in service to a false gospel. I won’t speak for my husband. This was my failing, completely and utterly mine.
I began to hunger for more of God. I wanted an authentic experience with Him. Church was not enough anymore. I had to have Jesus! My heart began moaning for Him, in the grip of fear and desperation. I could no longer keep up with the SGM machine. I was always falling short. I wanted out.
Now I’m going to share an experience I don’t speak of often. If you are a cessationist, you probably want to skip this part. One morning, as I was on my knees in my room, praying desperately for more of Jesus, I had a deep experience. Suddenly, it felt like Jesus was in the room with me. He was sitting on His throne, looking down at me with great sympathy but a mighty sternness. If I could have fallen through the floor, I would have. I could tell that He knew what was in my heart. I was Pharasee, a legalist, a person without the knowledge of grace. I began to cry and tremble. I don’t know how long we sat together. For days after, I walked around saying, “Who can stand before God?” I was totally undone. I was made to look into God’s cup of wrath, yet not made to drink. This was my Isaiah experience. Truly, who can stand before God?
This went on for about a week. One night, I was watching a “Matthew” video. I got to the end, where the actor playing Jesus looks straight into the camera and smiles a beautiful, complete smile of love and acceptance. Tears streamed down my face as I rewound over and over to see that smile. The Lord had looked at me sternly, shown me His cup of wrath, kept me from drinking of it, then smiled at me with total acceptance and love. My heart overflowed with joy. I was forgiven. Jesus paid the price. I would never suffer God’s wrath!
I have to go now to a doctor’s appt. I will finish this story later tonight or tomorrow.
Dan,
Thank you so much for posting. I’m reluctant to comment when people tell their stories-Carole is so much better at it.
Let me just say that I’m deeply affected, and so grateful to God for your faithfulness, and His faithfulness to you!
P.S. God didn’t put me into a “dessert” but into a “desert”. Just thought I’d clarify…I have images of myself swimming in chocolate and whip cream!
Hey Canary!
What a story! It doesn’t surprise me, but that doesn’t make it any less heart wrenching. Can’t wait to hear the rest!
OH!… thanks for clarifying the “dessert” statement… I WAS wondering about the “dessert” you had been put off into.
I was thinking something chocolate-y… didn’t sound too bad to me! 
(Seriously, I knew what you meant… the old typing fingers sometimes do that to me, too!)
Thanks Jim and Carole so much for your kind words! It’s so stupid isn’t it, there’s still a part of me that hits “Publish” and then is almost too scared to come back and look to see what is said, just in case its’s “SGM-like”!!
Sue, thanks so much also for your wonderful lovely comments. Again – it meant so much. I will definately consider that idea of asking my pastor-friend Pete to contact them direct. That would be interesting to see what happens and how they respond to him!
I must admit the temptation is to follow the testimony of that young guy – how my heart goes out to him! My non-Christian friends are so accepting and so loving and cannot understand the tension and the trauma and why I carry on fighting. It’s so sad to look within the church and just see defeat and cold celibacy and misery. There’s no hope, optimism, talk of a loving Father who gives strength to triumph!
Thanks again everyone so much!!
Carole,
Thanks for your encourgement. For some reason, posting what I did took alot out of me. I think I’ll wait until later to finish. I’m still not quite comfortable getting “vulnerable” with others. There were too many times where vulnerability at SGM was very costly. Thanks for giving us all a safe place to post.
I think I’ll go eat some chocolate…hee-hee
Sue,
Have you ever posted under a different name, or are you new? Good advice that you gave Dan. I, too, wondered if he was able to get help from loving Christians. His situation is a little tougher than some of ours, because he still has family involved in SGM. What a lot of pressure that must be!
Is the Matthew actor doing the book of John right now? Wow, I want to know when that comes out. He was so able to capture the joy that is in Jesus. Before that, the only Jesus you ever saw in movies was somber and mystic. Bruce M. made Jesus into a real man, someone we could understand and relate to. To see Jesus full of laughter and joy truly changed my heart.
Dan,
Hugs to you from across the pond. You have to believe that none of us are going to respond to your posts with anything but love and understanding. We want to help you find truth in Jesus, and we will not condemn you. Let me ask you this: if it was 2000 years ago when Jesus visited the earth, would he have found you hanging out with the Pharasees and Sadducees, or with the tax collectors and prostitutes? The first group might seem more religious and noble, but they rejected and slandered our Lord. The second group became disciples, apostles, and martyrs. They were received by Jesus even before they repented and changed. They took the gospel to the nations. Which group do you relate to more? I suspect the latter. Alot of us who left SGM do. We know our flaws, our sins, our unworthiness, yet we know we’ve been received by Christ. He is in the process of making us like Himself. Leave the Pharasees behind, Dan. Unless God opens their eyes, they will never understand. Be devoted to Jesus, allow Him to change you into the man of God you are suppose to be. You can go back to your friends and be a light. Who knows how many of them have only heard a false gospel? You can bring them the truth, as God changes you. I hope I haven’t stepped out of bounds by saying these things to you. I am by no means a counselor or therapist or pastor. But I feel an intensity about what you’re going through. Devote yourself to Jesus alone, become like Him by the power of His Holy Spirit. Then, everything else will fall into place as it was meant to.
Okay, now I’m going to shut up and go eat my chocolate.
In a ‘nut shell’ conversion mid 70″s .. Heavily influenced by Derek Prince,and some of the spiritual gift teaching God was giving the church through the charismatic episcopal movement in the pacific northwest at the time. Then jumped in pretty heavily through non- denominational/pentecostal churches and the shepherding movement. Then Earl Paulk influences, then Word of Faith with Haggin and Copeland,Hicky,Price,then more shepherding with some AG influences and ministry application some Wilkerson and Teen Challenge and Calvary Chapel.
Augh…so I wander into a SG after attending a PCA for a few years and see quickly what I had left prior in all those other places exhibiting itself in a SG and knew right away that there was abuse going on.
I have had some difficulty trying to explain this. It’s not the charismatic gifting excesses that is the problem because SG doesn’t exercise those gifts like I have seen in my previous churches but what they do share is the ‘moses model’,apostolic covering/ shepherding stuff that is wrong. Another HUGE problem is SG’s patriarchy which is nowhere to be found in New Testament teaching,this they share with PCA though.
That’s why my initial comment when you started this blog that these abuses go FAR beyond just SG. It is rampant in most charismatic congregations that I have been to and it stems from the “Florida 5″. It is still infiltrating the church and it is a HUGE ERROR,that and the fact that true apostolic authority no longer exists today. Gifting “yes”,position/office
“no.”
Seriously brainwashing is what is happening. People are being discipled wrong right from the start and there are serious ‘cracks’ in the foundation.
My ideal church would be the following:
1. Cal-minian
2. Genuine encouragement and exercising of spiritual gifting with HEALTHY oversight.
3. EGALITARIAN leadership in churches and marraiges.
4. Strong mercy ministrys with more emphasis from John Perkins and christian community development applications.
5. Ditch the pulpit driven ministry only. EVERYONE has something to share. Oversight by elders NOT pastor(s)
6. Freedom to move around and work with other churches and ministries and not be told your in rebellion.
7. Lastly psych evals of church leadership and accountability to the congregation of the direction the church is heading.
8 Lastly if it is to be pulpit driven then not to expect or put pressure on a pastor to stay in the position longer than 7 years if he does not desire
Hope I didn’t freak anybody out to badly. But that is my story and it’s real. And painful,alot of it. But I still love Jesus and am glad I got out of alot of it. Sad thing now is I struggle where to go. It’s like I know too much now.
One more thing. Dan I am sorry for your pain. Another thing SG shares with all of my other screwed up cult like churches is the lack of education in both theology and counseling from people who have no business being in alot of the positions they are in.You were given BAD direction.. There are other ministries that deal specifically with some of your past history. I would try there. God bless you though for your attempts at still trying to break bread with SG ‘christians’.
Carole,
Thank you for your very kind words. I love you too!
Canary,
I totally understand that posting your story took a lot out of you. I can easily relate to the scenario you went through with PDI and the areas where the Lord showed you to repent. Our stories are very similar. I had not realized that before. Thank you for your willingness, not only to expose the PDI/SGM errors you experienced, but also to be transparent with your own shortcomings in the whole process. Humility is a lovely quality.
Dan,
There is something very precious about you. Grace to you as you “carry on fighting.” You are in our prayers.
Sonya,
Wow, you have seen it all! I’m glad you still love Jesus. I can relate to the struggle to find a church and the seen-too-much, know-too-much feeling. Still trying to “land” somewhere myself.
Hi Everyone!
Our power has been out all afternoon (for 6 hours… SIX!.. in Florida… in June… I realized I am so spoiled with my electronic everything! But especially my AC and my internet access. Can you say much conviction was taking place today?… amid the grumbling and complaining, of course!
) The power was just restored moments ago… YAY! So we are back in business. 
(I must admit that as soon as the electricity came on, Jim and I both ran… yes, literally RAN for our computers! Is there any hope for us?!?!) 
Dan… Thanks for coming back!
This truly is a safe place and besides, you are “family.”
Canary… I know how emotionally draining telling your story can be. It brings back so many memories. But, I have to say (having “known you through your posts for a while now), it’s very evident that God has brought you a long, long way! But take your time, as long as you want. We’ve settled in and we’re gonna be here for a while!
Sonya… Thanks for sharing your story and your thoughts. The shepherding movement is alive and well, using different terminology, of course. But as they say… “A rose is a rose…” Looking forward to hearing more from you!
In Him
Carole
Carole,
FL in June with no air conditioning – yuck. Here in the mountains of CO it is a cool 50 something. I don’t think summer wants to start!
Sonya,
Interesting take on the Shepherding movement. Why is it we so easily give up our freedom in Christ to follow men/women who claim to speak for God? That question could start a whole, new topic!
{{{{{{{{{{{Dan}}}}}}}}}}}
Love you, sweetie!!
{{{{{{Canary}}}}}}}}}}
Thanks for sharing, Sonya and Sue!
Carole and Jim, glad you got your power back!! Stay cool!
I’m going to finish up what I started yesterday. Thanks to all of you for listening. Though it is hard to speak of, I want others out there under authoritarian church rule to see how different their lives can be when they recover their freedom in Christ.
After my Isaiah-like experience, I began to hunger for the Lord. I read alot of Andrew Murray books. My bible became fresher to me. My friend, who was going through a similar experience, would call me and we’d talk for long periods of time. We were fellowshipping in a way I hadn’t really known before.
For a period of about two months, I began missing church meetings due to sick children. My husband began to notice that I was growing in grace. When I’d go to a meeting, I would stumble into the old fears and expectations. He began to see that I did better spiritually when I was away from SGM. That began to puzzle and intrigue him.
A time of refreshing came to our church. Sundays would find men, women, and children going to the front of the theatre where we met, praying and weeping. My husband and oldest son were among those. Though they both found it difficult to speak of what was happening to them, my husband and son experienced definite heart changes because the Holy Spirit touched them. They, too, began to want more of Jesus.
All too soon, the SP stopped the times of refreshing. When asked, our CG leader said the SP decided that it wasn’t the direction he wanted our church to go in. The Holy Spirit’s moving amongst us was no longer welcome. Now, understand that there were no abuses that I could see, just sincere people being touched by God. Still, it was not what the SP wanted to happen.
At the same time, women were going off to have their own CG meetings, and men to theirs. The first few times our little group of women met, we bonded through prayer, confession, and love. There was such beauty in the way the Lord was bringing us together. Suddenly, the freedom we experienced was taken away. We were given lists of sins to talk about at the meetings. No longer was the Holy Spirit free to move. We were put into a strangle hold. My friend and I labored over the cg questions, trying to answer honestly, but it felt so forced. It just wasn’t real. My husband became involved as he saw how stressed out I would become over going to a women’s meeting. He saw that the grace I was newly walking in was being squashed by the forced sin-digging. Our whole church was becoming like this. Every meeting was about our sin. The freedom, the love of God, the hope began to drain away. We heard hardly anything about Jesus. The focus was more and more on doctrine and the cross, our sin nature, etc. Our souls were so hungry for more of Jesus. It became apparent that there was a real problem.
We and two other couples met with the leadership. We truly loved and respected one of these men, whom we’d known for years. Imagine our surprise and dismay to find that he was defensive, impatient, and even angry because we had questions about why he stopped the Holy Spirit from moving in our church. I looked at these leaders and realized that they had no love for us. You could tell that they’d been through these kind of meetings before. They had an agenda. It turned out to be, follow their vision for the church, or go somewhere else. I knew suddenly that I was free of these false shepherds. They had no real interest in my soul, only my obedience to them. My husband felt the same way.
Of course, the SP would disagree with our point of view. We know what we saw and heard that night. It caused us to flee this church like the hounds of hell were on our heels. If we had remained, we would have lost our focus on Christ. We would have sold Him out for doctrine, church building, and sin-digging. I’m sorry, but that sort of focus just doesn’t satisfy the hungry soul.
During the years after we left, we became part of a small house church of other ex-sgmers. For three or four years, we helped each other heal. Two of the men were saved and baptized. So were some of our children. I did enter into a time of depression as the Lord re-educated me. There was so much about Him that I did not know, so many misperceptions. He was faithful to walk me through, partly because of the grace that my husband constantly showed me. It was as though all my plate spinning ceased to exist. The plates fell to the floor and shattered. The house was never clean, the laundry never finished, meals were sparce…I just couldn’t funtion. I questioned everything I’d been taught. Yet still, my husband patiently encouraged me, releasing me from all expectations. Through his actions, I learned the truth about God’s abundant grace. Eventually, I was able to serve my family again.
I also learned, during more difficult times, about God’s goodness. During one of my more fearful moments, I heard the Lord ask, “Don’t you believe in My goodness?” After 20 years of faithful attendance and involvement in an SGM church, I looked up at the sky with a frown and answered the Lord. “I don’t know what that means, Lord. I don’t understand.”
So He proceeded to show me. I went through a serious health crisis that continued for about five months. During the hospital trips, Dr.’s visits, and testing, I saw the Lord meet my needs at every turn. When I was afraid, He got to the hospital before me. He put angels called nurses into my life at just the right moments. When I had to have an MRI, and was terrified of being enclosed in the machine, the Lord gave me courage. I laid down on the bed, and it was rolled into the MRI machine. The minute I got inside, the Lord was already there. He communed with me during the 25 minutes of my isolation. He spoke of me becoming like a butterfly leaving its cocoon. He made special promises to me that I still hold close to my heart.
After surgery and weeks of recovery, I began to see how the Lord had changed me. I could now say to Him, “Yes, Lord. I do believe in your goodness.”
In 2006, my husband and I, along with our five kids and multiple animals, relocated to the mountains of CO. We are beginning to know the body of Christ in this little community, though we have not committed to one church alone. We know that we are waiting for something that the Lord wants to give. I continue to walk in grace. I have learned how to love. When I fall short of love, I know where to go to get a re-filling. I trust in God’s goodness, now. I walk in the freedom that the Lord has given me, yet I do not desire to sin. I have found that the more love the Lord stirs in me for Him, the less I want to hurt Him by doing wrong. It is grace that keeps me, not passion for doctrine or unquestioning obedience to a group of leaders.
When my husband pointed me to the SGMSurvivor’s blog, I was dismayed, alarmed, and yet comforted by the many similar stories being told about the controlling spirit of SGM. Somehow, after eleven years of being away from them, I had come to hope that things had changed for the better. It seems they have changed for the worse. I am so sorry to hear that. If the leaders won’t listen after the mountain of times their wrong behavior has been addressed, then maybe the people will. It is foolish to blindly follow a group or a man without any faith of your own. It is a travesty to relinquish your freedom in Christ. He shed His blood to give you that! My husband has said that, one day, we will all stand alone before the Lord. We won’t have our pastor, our cg leader, or our accountablity partner beside us. We will stand or fall based on our own faith. Before we can be a church, we must be our own, individual temples where Christ is revered. The bride that Jesus is returning for will not be a blind follower of men and traditions. He is looking for the bride who has filled her lamp with oil, is waiting expectantly, keeping fully awake until her Bridegroom comes. That is the sort of church I want to be a part of.
Sorry for the length of this post. I have to admit that it is nice to be finished. It’s not easy to go back and stir up old memories like these. However, if anyone receives ears to hear and eyes to see because of reading this, then it’s worth the effort. God’s favor and spiritual blessing be with you all.
Sue,
In reference to post #32, you’ve hit it on the head. You could write a book!
No. I want nothing to do with emergent. It’s repackaged liberal protestanism with new age and aspects of catholicism thrown in.
sorry for the harshness. I attend a reformed church for now that is not spirit filled.I will stay there for now.
Regarding emergent/emerging, Mark Driscol does a good job (from his perspective) outlining the 4 lanes of the emerging church. he would define “emergent” as the liberal, 4th lane, and speaks from experience, as he used to be affiliated with the current leaders. You won’t agree with everything he says, but it is an accurate overview.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58fgkfS6E-0
Sue said:
“It’s so Old Covenant to be focused on sin and really what SG teaches is the spirit of anti-Christ.”
It took me a while to understand this. No wonder I always felt so overwhelmed and discouraged. NOBODY can keep the whole law perfectly. The law was given to show our need for a Savior. Christ fulfilled the law within our hearts. We are no longer under law, but under grace. Paul wrote: “For I through the Law have myself died to the Law and all the Law’s demands upon me, so that I may live to and for God” Gal. 2:19.
Hi All!
Canary, Thank you so much for sharing the rest of your story! I know how painful it is to re-visit these hurtful times in our lives… I truly do appreciate your courage to post it here, and that you feel comfortable and safe enough here to open up your heart and your life to us. Thank you!
BUT!… How encouraging is the rest of your story!!!
How faithful God has been and how gracious, kind and loving He shows Himself when we are “allowed” to hear His sweet, still voice for ourselves, without a mediator (meaning SGM). THAT’S the part of your story that I will read again and again! How great is GOD!!!
Canary…
“We are no longer under law, but under grace.”
Amen, Sister!!
“….So today after examining my heart for any trace of self-righteousness, any hint of moral superiority in my soul, I have prayed that God would use these circumstances to obtain the attention of Sovereign Grace Ministries, I pray that God would strategically provide individuals to care for these men at this time and share the gospel ….
(http://www.sovereigngraceminis.....-XLII.aspx)
Yuk… All right, never mind. I thought those words were sanctimonious the first time I read them, and since I was never good at imitating El Premo doctrinal Mover and Shaker C. J. Mahaney, all those years ago I won’t start now.
But it does seem like there should be some grand spiritual divine intro to the start of every story. These stories on this blog are grave tidings. They are solemn and sobering testimonies. And I know why we think it important to hope for great and virtuous things: repentance, reform, revelation.
However, in my mind, some broader appeal to divine virtue is useless. SGM will not see any pronouncement of pure motive sufficient to what folk on this blog are saying. By default they believe ANY criticism of their methods and practice are a moral failing on the part of the critic AT BEST! At worst they believe the critic to be in divine sedition.
So I will dispense with the pretense. My comments about SGM and its leadership are what they are: a scathing criticism of Spiritual Tyranny.
The hardest part of talking about PDI/CLC/SGM experience is it is an EVENT that takes place around some of the most personal stuff. By EVENT I mean a long standing progression of interaction. There is never a single moment, one deciding action where the victim can point and say: “yup, right there, that is the bad thing I’m talking about.”
The abuse and tyranny occurs largely in private about things most folk would like to keep private. To get the conflict you need the details—often embarrassing details. While most people find the details of their life interesting, everybody else finds them tedious or scandalous. So how do you tell a story that has lots of UGLY, lots of NECESSARY, but oh so boring details?
Told well or poorly what follows is my attempt.
(Queue Violin music)
I came to the then PDI/CLC a mess: an intemperate, impatient, seriously depressed, 25 year old with a catastrophically flawed marriage, and a life that just wasn’t working. I did what everyone does when they are in pain. I went to find help.
Forgive me for mixing pronouns but the story proceeds for a bit as a WE (Think wife and me) initial efforts at help were pretty good. Bob Hoover—then pastor within CLC—was even handed in his frank commentary of my failings and my wife’s at the same time being very compassionate. (I know Bob, you don’t like it when I give you credit. I know they frown in your direction when I speak well of you. Heheh… I won’t tell them of our secret meeting if you don’t.)
For reasons of internal CLC organization we were given over to robin boysvert It got ugly from there. SGM leaders enter all counseling sessions with some hard and fast assumptions. There is not enough space to ferret out each in this post, but robin went down the list of assumptions and tried attaching them to me and my motives and just missed. When I pointed out he was off base, he began with the “don’t you trust us?” “If you don’t why are you here?” line. And when that didn’t cow me he tried to run over me with Theology. And he never expected me to talk that language at all, let alone with detail. And then I got the classic dismissal: “John you are proud. John you are arrogant.”
(rising crescendo)
If I was hurt before, this was flatly crushing. In another place and another time, I probably would have blown it off. Indeed, I’d suffered plenty of criticism from quarters that most folk could not dream by the time I was 25. But at that point in life I’d hit my limits.
I heard the appeals from the pulpit to emulate the Ken Sande book: come redress grievances. So I took it at face value. I wrote CJ a letter and told him of my experience.
If I thought robin was impatient with dissent … (snort)
OK… see you need details don’t you.
CJ began with telling me he and robin had talked. CJ had the very same assumptions about me and his approach to counseling was strikingly similar. I didn’t agree with robins assessment much, so I certainly didn’t agree with El Premo doctrinal mover and shaker. When I didn’t immediately accept his take on my attempt at reconciliation, he trotted out the: “don’t you trust us?” “If you don’t, why are you here?” litany. And then he tried the Theology stuff, but only briefly. And then when it didn’t cow me, I got the “John you are proud. John you are arrogant.”
Hummm… if you don’t see the pattern emerging just yet, don’t feel bad. I didn’t either. But I did get a free copy of the Ken Sande book: a little better than a stuffed bear I suppose.
Anyway, did WE (me AND wife) walk out the door? Did we toss our indignant hands in the air because we’d not been told what our itching ears wanted to hear? Nope. See, the other part of the SGM dynamic is they do Christian stuff really well. They do the industry of Church REALY well. And CJ is stone cold funny and when he’s not trying so hard he has great social commentary. And they give you every opportunity to believe they are the only game in town; and aren’t you oh so fortunate to have found such a thing. Isn’t it a privilege? Aren’t PDI/CLC leader’s men of such great character. Isn’t it better that they value true spiritual things. Isn’t it a wonder: God led you HERE!
The SGM spiritual elitism is soooo very infectious: it is a heady tonic. (Drink deep at your own risk)
Six or seven years past in my time at CLC/PDI. In the beginning I drank deep of the CJ mojo juice. (I know, they think I never really tried to fit in, but that would be them wrong about me … AGAIN.) The details of those seven years would be the boring parts. I discuss the length and breadth of this dynamic in my book Blight in the Vineyard: Getting Free of the Myths and Tyrannies of Sovereign Grace Ministries. (It is in post-production now I am working diligently to get it in paperback form.) But the pattern above proved to be set in stone.
(theme song from Star Wars: Darth Vader entrance)
What is the pattern?
First, SGM leaders kibitz amongst themselves about counseling sessions. Have a conversation with ANYBODY in leadership and the whole bunch will know most of the issue.
SGM leaders approach all conversations with entrenched expectations. They expect everyone to emulate the PDI/CLC/SGM Method and Manner.
Disagree with their pastoral assessment. They try to manipulate: “don’t you trust us?”
When that doesn’t pause your objections they trot out the Reformed Theology primer. And oh dear lord, do not even hint that you believe their doctrine is wrong (particularly if you are a mere woman). They are so sure they got all the right answers that you can not possibly have been as thorough as they. CJ has been given a greater measure after all.
And if that doesn’t make you nice and compliant, and supplicating, and solicitous, and subservient—opps a servant, they accuse you of character failing—pride and arrogance.
And if none of that works…. They just nod toward the door and say “maybe you should start your own church.”
It is my experience they LOVE the Matthew 18 ethic as long as YOU are reconciling to THEM.
Every conflict I had at PDI/CLC followed this progression. CJ, robin boysvert, John Loftness, Ken Moresco and a half a dozen bit players. Every one. And every conflict I observed followed that same path.
Coincidence? Read the rest of these stories and you tell me…
Since I can’t emulate CJ worth a hoot here is what I pray: God, have these men live and not die. Open the eyes of their understanding to the gospel of the Anointed one and His Anointing: that removes burdens and destroys yokes, and sets at liberty them who are captive…. but hey God, could you wait a while… they give me so much to write about: spiritualtyranny.com!
John,
I’m a fan. I love reading what you write, no matter what your topic of choice may be. Thank you for posting!
Ok- I have 2 issues:
1)I’m holding on to hope for reform.
2) Your post was far too brief.
Hey John!
I agree with Jim!
And your insights are right on the money… Thanks for posting, and we are looking forward to more (MUCH more
) from you!
John said:
“And oh dear lord, do not even hint that you believe their doctrine is wrong (particularly if you are a mere woman).”
John,
You hit that one on the head. I didn’t realize how condescending these men could be towards us women until after we left. Then, memories of tongue-in-cheek remarks, ways of looking at us, and even ignoring things we said came flooding back. Oh, that’s why they looked at me like that! Oh, that’s why I felt like I was just patted on the head and told to “shoo”. I find it sort of funny, now. Let them try that today on this woman and (respectfully) I’d give them an ear full. But don’t get me started.
Carole,
You are so sweet. God is good and God is love. And I “feel” the love on this blog. Wish we lived closer to each other!
Jim,
I, too, hope for reform in SGM. This might seem nieve, but I have never believed that my ex-leaders meant to harm anyone. I think they are blind to their actions. Their knowledge puffs them up. Their passion for doctrine has replaced their passion for Jesus. If the Lord could change Saul to Paul, He can change anyone. So we keep hoping.
Canary,
I wouldn’t mess with ya!
I wish we lived closer, too! Wouldn’t it be nice to visit over coffee with the others? A friend of mine (Gracie) and I have expressed this same sentiment… and also how cool it is of God to knit hearts together over the internet! Who would have thunk… but OH! how thankful I am that He is doing just that!! I appreciate you all so much!
Carole,
Gracie and I email back and forth. She’s a gem. Do you guys know each other, are you in the same town?
She is a gem!!
She has reached out to me and impacted my life so much with her wisdom and her grace. (Her “name” is very appropriate, doncha think?!?)
No we don’t live near each other… I wish we did, though!… I would LOVE to visit with all of you in person. THAT would be so fun!! (Email is better than nothing, though.)
How are you doing, post-story writing? I’ve been thinking about you today… it’s tough to re-live the SGM days and actually write it out. You are a champ in my book!
Hello to all,
I am a first time poster on this site, I have posted quite a bit on the other blog. I am jumping on the bandwagon here, wasn’t planning to, but I really sense the love and genuine care and concern going on here, and I feel like I am in a much better place than I was at the start of the other blog and thought it would be a good thing to share a bit of my journey. Jim and Carole, you are bold and I appreciate the truth you share and the way you are pursuing love and honest care on this blog. It is very refreshing!! Many blessings to you both! I will be back to share my story later! Grace to you all!
Lydia! Welcome!
Thank you for your kind words… we DO have a passion for God and His people, especially those who have been hurt by SGM churches. We’ve been there. We know how it feels. And we know that it is biblically wrong. For Jim and I, it would have been wrong to sit back and not speak out against the unbiblical teachings of this movement. There are too many people lying around, broken and wounded, and we just couldn’t turn our backs and go on, selfishly, with our own lives, unaffected by that.
Having said that, we have absolutely no expectations from anyone here to post anything they don’t want to, or feel led by God to post. It truly is a safe place. No pressure!
SGMSurvivors is a great site! Kris and Guy have been an agent of God in my life to help bring me to the place I’m at now. I will be forever thankful to them for their courage to start their blog and to give us (ex-SGMer’s) a forum to speak about our experiences and to find each other. I hold them near and dear to my heart.
Looking forward to hearing more from you! I hope you will find this to be a place of refuge, hope, and love!
Carole (AKA I Survived SGM on the SGMSurvivors site… just thought I’d throw that in, as some of you have been quite surprised to find out that I am one and the same… don’t know if that helps or hurts… LOL!)
Thanks Carole, (I mean I survived SGM)
I am grateful for you and for Guy and Kris! This is no easy thing you all have taken on, but I am sure you will be empowered by God’s grace to go forward as He leads you!! I feel no pressure whatsoever to post, but like you feel compelled to share because I too cannot sit back and support what SGM is doing to many lives! I long to see them be set free and the leaders to truly see the extent of damage being done and repent and start preaching the pure Gospel of Grace boldly and truly!!!!!!!! They are not doing that currently. Like Canary said it’s a bit of grace and lot “to do’s”. Anyway, when I get time I will share my brief story!!! Much Grace, and many blessings to all who read here!!
Lydia,
Jim and I have much hope for SGM, too! They have many good things going for them, but have taken it to an extreme level, which God never intended, and, in a lot of their teachings, have totally stepped out of “biblicalness” (is that even a word???) and are living an abusive, cultish lifestyle and expecting their members to adopt it and live it.
But I continue to hope and pray for reform within the ranks of SGM leadership… after all, God is a very, very big God!… He saved me and changed me… He can change SGM, too!
I can’t wait to hear more from you… and to get to know you better and better as we build this little “community” here.
Grace and Peace,
Carole
What alarms me of late about SGM is that, when I post my story (soon, I hope) you will see that it took place twenty years ago. Canary’s exit from SGM was 11 years ago. Jim and Carole’s exit was 2 years ago. And Concerned left three months ago. These four stories are just a small sampling of the numerous stories told on the survivors blog that span two decades or more. It is alarming how similar my story is to everyone else’s and that the same abuses have continued for so long. Some of the things Canary’s pastors said to her are EXACTLY the same things we were told, though we were in different parts of the country with different pastors at the helm.
This confirms again what I have long suspected. The authoritarian structure, the emphasis on sin, the tactics regarding how to deal with “problem” members MUST be taught from above. As I have said before (somewhere?), when we disagreed and confronted our PDI leader, there was a system already set in place to very quickly “deal” with us.
Gracie,
EXACTLY!
This is why we must bring this into the light of the public square.
If this was just a “Jim & his former church” issue, I’d handle that in a much different way.
What we talk about here are clearly SGM distinctives.
Gracie, Canary, Ellie – thanks for your prayers, didn’t get all the emails though!
Canary has my private email if you guys want it. Things going better and then they fall apart. The enemy is really trying to discourage me, then one minute I have crazy thoughts of returning, then God speaks and says RUN! It’s been strange. But He is keeping me focused on himself. Leaving an SGM church is the hardest thing I have ever done spiritually. Amazing how even our leaving is testimony to how jacked up the methodology of these churches are. To cause such a reaction in us emotionally and spiritually, it’s been a wild ride.
Carole asked Canary:
“How are you doing, post-story writing? I’ve been thinking about you today…”
I’m doing all right. Just a little bit of squirming on the inside still, but it will settle down, I’m sure. I haven’t shared those things with many others. Felt it was time.
And yes, Gracie’s real name is VERY appropriate!
Gracie, you make a good point. Isn’t it just awful that the things we went through are still happening to others? It is like SGM is stuck in a time warp. And it isn’t just in that group. There are even more extreme authoritarian churches out there! Ugh!
It IS a wild ride, Concerned! But worth it in the long run… FREEDOM is worth the price you are paying right now, even if it doesn’t FEEL like it at times. God has greater plans for you, rather than the bondage SGM offers.
We continue to pray for you!
Carole
Concerned,
I’m sending mucho hugs [[[[Concerned]]]]. I will re-send your email address to the girls. Hang on to the Lord and shut out the many voices that are shouting to your spirit. Eventually, you will understand more about how some of these “voices” are so wrong, and it won’t be hard to reject them. Right now, you just need to GET OUT!! We’re here for you!
Canary,
I’m sorry you are still feeling “squirmy”… it’s difficult to share such hard, personal things with “strangers.” You are a brave woman, and I am confident that God will use it in the help and healing of others. I will keep praying for you!
Carole
Thanks, Carole. I think that you and Jim make it easier for others to share hard things. Your hearts are clearly filled with God’s love.
Canary,
Thank you!
And all of you make it easy for us to do what we’re doing here! Your support and encouragement and INPUT exudes love and concern… and THAT means the world to us! After all, this site belongs to ALL of us, it’s not just mine and Jim’s, simply because we are “hosting” it. Methinks God is building something good here… I feel my heart being knitted together with all of you! And that’s a good thing! 
Thanks, Carole.
After SGM, feeling like there is somewhere that I belong is an alien thing.
I know what you mean, Ellie!
But it’s great to begin feeling like we are a part of God’s people, again, doncha think?
It’s still somewhat foreign to me, but it’s kinda like eating ice cream after being on a very loooooooong diet. I can’t seem to get my fill!
(Almost decadent! LOL!)
I would just add to what Canary said about not realizing certain things till after you leave.
After I left CLC in the early to mid 90′s I was occasionally given CLC tapes by someone. Listening to Mahaney after leaving CLC I noticed how arrogant and assuming Mahaney could be. I didn’t notice it when I was repeatedly exposed to him.
I also realized that at least when I was there most of what Mahaney did was exhort with doing very little teaching from scripture.
As others have said, Mahaney is quite engaging and certainly has the gift of gab etc.
Steve240,
Hmmm…interesting. I haven’t, even after all this time, been able to sit through an SGM message again. Isn’t it weird that the very character quality they insisted we all must have, namely humility, was apparently lacking in some of them? I still can’t wrap my brain around that.
Aww wow, Canary, Ellie, Sue, Concerned … thanks so much to you all!!
I do feel so loved and love you all you guys too!! Just does feel like REAL family. Not the family that stand with the church and shake their heads sorrowfully and yet judgementally as they in their minds hand you over to ruin … but REAL family! Acceptance! Protection! It’s great!!
Must just pick up on one part of the story I forgot. #43 – John you mentioned about your interactions with the dreaded CLC leadership.
When things were at their darkest, but I didn’t yet feel ready to go speak to people’s faces and show them my scars on my arms and my thin waistline – I did actually email Covenant Life Church (stupidly) hoping that because they were a big established church – there would be grace there and maybe some advice.
I got an email back from the same Robin Boisvert. I had heard that he is an older experienced man (I DIDN’T know that he is Mahaney family .. eek!). But his email was rude and nasty also. He wanted to know why I had bothered emailing them and not gone first to the senior pastor in Bristol – he said he knew the senior pastor Nathan and testified that he is a “good man”. Right …
Anyhow that was the Robin Boisvert interaction. That email I sent too, also I think contributed to my disfellowshipment or whatever it’s called. I thought that it would demonstrate how desperate I was but apparantly it was proof that I was going behind leadership backs and not following the line of authority.
*que also Darth Vader music*
Secondly, I was so incensed by the whole manner in which I was treated at Grace Church in Bristol, that I wrote to the SGM leadership team – that’s right – all of them! Again rather naively I thought that they would be concerned at the way one of their churches was behaving.
I got a tiny note back from Dave Harvey who said that they washed their hands of the whole situation – that one Peter Greasley in Wales was the true father of the church so they were sending the letter to him. I then started getting emails from Greasley saying that I had misunderstood everything and demanding a meeting – just me and him and the senior pastor. Suprisingly enough I declined that meeting. I had enough of meetings by then where it was me sat alone facing the team of them! (Seeking to serve me of course …
I only add that just because reading the comments above, adds so much to my understanding of what happened. They really do sing from the same song sheet don’t they? It is quite scary and freaky really how clone-like they are.
I just found a video on You-Tube of Peter Greasey (the Wales SGM apostle) going round his library talking about books. I was quite interested because he is meant to be a well-read guy and indeed on the video you could see he had a wide range. But again typically he just pulled out all the SGM favourites … Jerry Bridges, John Owen (the abridged version), C J Mahaney (!!!), Bob Kaulfin etc etc.
What happened to independent thinking?! Free speeech!? What REALLY does happen in Pastor’s College to make them all think so absolutely alike!?!?
Dan, Robin is Mahaney family?
Dan,
As I was reading through your earlier post above, something occurred to me that I had either forgotten about, or just didn’t want to remember.
I remember sharing difficulties I was going through with the sr. pastor’s wife, not really defining a “specific sin”, but “this is what I’m feeling/thinking” kind of a thing.
Her response was (usually) defining my sin for me, which usually wasn’t correct, just her judgement and assumption. After praying and seeking God on the matter (which I should have done FIRST instead of going to “mere men”, but who knew?!?!), I would realize that her assumptions were completely incorrect or “over the top”, making it seem much, much worse than it really was. Then, whenever I would talk to her about similar things, her response would be, “Carole, you have struggled with this before, remember?” She had decided in her mind that I was guilty of the sins she had assigned to me. Sheeesh! And, of course, dumb, brainwashed sheep that I was, I never corrected her.
She was believing HER take and assigning sin to me that wasn’t there, then she would use that incorrect information against me.
Now, I’m not saying that I am/was “sin free.” Everyone who knows me would SHOUT at this point “Amen!)
And I’m also not saying that she was incorrect in her judgement ALL of the time… sometimes she was spot on. But to assume you know someone’s heart and struggles because… well, just because, is ludicrous, as well as very, proud.
I was just reminded of this tactic and wanted you to know that others have been judged, tried and hung out to dry because of incorrect judgement. Obviously, my case pales in comparison to yours! But I wonder if this is another SGM distinctive, another manipulative scheme SGM uses.
Things that make you go “Hmmmmm.”
Thanks Sue! We aim to please!
We are still working (as we speak) to add things to the site to make it more user friendly, such as being able to edit your own comments, etc.
Hopefully the changes will helpful.
As far as I know (in too-long tenure at CLC 1986-2007) neither Robin Boisvert nor his wife Clara are part of the Mahaney or Layman families. He grew up here in Montgomery County, like CJ, and around the same time. He was a pastor at another church before coming to CLC.
The new format is so much easier to read–my eyes were watering with the white lettering on brown (and I hadn’t even read something sad yet).
I loved this list for church “shopping” from earlier in the comments.
My ideal church would be the following:
1. Cal-minian
2. Genuine encouragement and exercising of spiritual gifting with HEALTHY oversight.
3. EGALITARIAN leadership in churches and marriages. As I have breathed the fresh air, I am seeing more and more clearly that the “Biblical Manhood and Womanhood” patriarchal focus is not just uncomfortable, but downright sinful, that it is far more about fear and control than it is about order.
4. Strong mercy ministries and focus on being caretakers of our earth
5. Ditch the pulpit driven ministry only. EVERYONE has something to share. Oversight by elders NOT pastor(s)
6. Freedom to move around and work with other churches and ministries and not be told you’re in rebellion.
7. Lastly, accountability to the congregation of the direction the church is heading
8. Freedom to be who you are in Jesus–bubbly or shy, loud or quiet, creative or orderly, book-loving or sports-loving, Democrat or Republican or neither, public schools or home school. Given what God shows us in His glorious creation, He LOVES variety and color and the sometimes messy wonder of it all.
Acme,
I especially like number 8.
I am going to publish some emails that were sent to me from my pastors in the last couple of months (without names of course) please pray for me because the time has come for me to break all ties with my former church and that means the two families I have known for 5 years even before the SGM church (which both families left our old church to come to the SGM church because of my influence - ugh how I wish I could change that now!) ANyway, I posted the email from the pastor’s wife.
at some point, will someone please tell me how to handle this break from bondage in terms of spiritual warfare? I say this because it clearly is spirits we are dealing with – the fact as Gracie said, that 20 years and you have the SAME behavior and sins going on across the country to me, indicates not only a SGM problem but beyond that a spiritual problem. THe spirits at work are the SAME SPIRITS. Legalism, pride, religion, gossip, slander, etc. So is there something I must do, in terms of renouncing those spirits in Jesus name, etc that would help? I’m not very “charismatic” being raise Southern Baptist, but I keep getting this nagging feeling that more should be done both verbally and physcially by me to illustrate the “break” more. I’m still tied to it in some ways..and having a hard time getting free.
thanks Sue, I look forward to contacting you offline
and the battle cry goes out again Jim: FREEDOM!!!!!!!
Forgive a newbe, but I’m not sure what the heck a cal-minian is, but the rest of the wish list looks just fine to me.
I was dismembered (sounds macabre, huh?) from a (at the time,) PDI church in the mid ’90′s. The pattern of spiritual abuse is similar to other stories that have already been told on this blog.
We are the infamous family that was kicked out of the church because we had serious concerns about the parenting teaching that was being brought into the church.
DB,
So nice to hear from you! I know those horrible feelings of remorse at having been a stern and graceless parent. When we left PDI in 1997, my oldest was around 13. Thank God we didn’t go through the youth group years at SGM. After we left, my older chidren shared their feelings about the church, especially the childrens’ ministry, and how they were so glad they didn’t have to go anymore. For a while, I could not function as a parent. I did not discipline (though my kids had boundaries). I didn’t know what was right. Eventually, I found the balance in parenthood. The Lord received my children as I trustingly handed them over to His care. My husband and I learned to parent by the grace of God. Today, three of them are in college, each having a firm faith in God. The other two are well on their way. We all want our children to have real faith, a true love of Jesus, not just religion of the mind. We don’t just want them to obey our rules, but to think for themselves, and to seek God for the choices they face every day. Our kids need their freedom in Christ just as much as we do. Eventually, we should be their guides, their friends. This doesn’t happen if we control and rule over them harshly into adulthood and beyond.
Also, I have such a deep sadness today for all the children who grow up under the strict laws of relgion, having never known the true grace of God. Sooner or later, will they finally give up? Will anybody be there for them? God be with them!
Canary,
Some of our children must be of similar ages. I have one who just graduated from medical school and three in college. I have one in high school, one in middle school, and one in elementary school.
The older ones that suffered in CF will not go to church although they have a personal relationship with the Lord. The younger ones who were either not born at that time or too young are much freer. They go to church and have a commitment to things spiritual. They are a little bit suspicious because of our family background.
I also had a lot of doubts about my parenting because I was told my parenting wasn’t of God (like if it isn’t of God, who is it of? Major implication there!) Anyway, I started being exposed to a more diverse group of Christians and discovered that a lot of them were very relaxed about their parenting. This gave me a little bit of faith that I wasn’t leading my kids over a cliff. I am now pretty secure in my parenting although I know I mess up some times. I also understand that just because things work well for one child doesn’t mean it will work well for another (even in my own family.) What I *do* know is love, grace, and compassion are good things.
I do not spank my children, haven’t for awhile now. I think the Bible is neutral about it, giving individuals the freedom to use discernment (and a lot of prayer!) for their own situation. I do establish and maintain boundaries. My younger children (with the major exception of Josh,) have not rebelled and it is really easy to have soulful conversations with them.
I, too, feel sadness for the little children who have grown up under the harsh taskmaster of legalilsm. I remember the crying at CF; I remember really little children being beaten because they were behaving like little children (things like not sitting still when you are 18 months old.) Parents were discouraged from reading secular (or scientifically based Christian,) parenting books so they didn’t have an understanding of normal developmental behavior. They would spank a 9mo baby for dropping the cheerios on the floor not knowing that it was important for the baby to discover the law of gravity.
Will they finally give up? This sends chills up and down my spine because giving up can become Failure to Thrive, giving up can become Learned Helplessness. Giving up may eventually lead to a little girl not responding to the red flags when the adult touches her inappropriately. Giving up is tragic.
Hi DB!
Welcome to The Refuge!!
I hope to “see” more of you here!
Carole
Acme!
How did I miss your post??? Is this your first time posting here at The Refuge? If so, WELCOME!! Good to see you here!
Carole
thanks! Nice to be seen — and heard–and welcomed.
Hey Canary,
I read your comment, “Also, I have such a deep sadness today for all the children who grow up under the strict laws of relgion, having never known the true grace of God. Sooner or later, will they finally give up? Will anybody be there for them? God be with them!”
This is one of my greatest concerns with SGM…the children. This is why I think God will deal harshly with SGM.
Thus far, I’ve watched SGM children rebel and turn from the faith, become sheltered little “SGM clones” too scared to ever venture out of the “SGM bubble”, and the very worst…to become hardened, graceless legalists. The level of dysfunction among them is unbelievable.
We must stay vigilant in our efforts to “get the word out” about SGM and PRAY, PRAY, PRAY!!!
I know that Jesus loves all the little children. He was very serious about the severity of the consequences of someone leading a little child astray. This makes me very sober. He also welcomed the children when others would shoo them away. My motto for today is: Let love be my guide, especially in parenting! I will welcome any child, teen, or young adult who needs to hear about Jesus’ love. That’s what Jesus would do, right? And if we are letting love be our guide with our children, I think there will be good results.
I agree with Canary.
Our only real job in this world is to be like Jesus, modeling His love to other people. That’s it.
Will my children see Jesus through my parenting? That simple question gets rid of a lot of legalistic baggage.
DB,
I think we must be kindred spirits, at least in terms of our parenting. Will my children see Jesus through my parenting? Oh Lord, I hope so. By your grace, God!
Yes, we might be kindred spirits.
I also want to enjoy my children especially now that they are grown up or at least on their way.
It’s nice to have an 20YO son *with* a nice girlfriend that’s away at college and *still* takes time to regularly text me to tell me how much he loves me.
DB,
That’s sweet. I love when I get a peck on the cheek by my 24 year old son, ’cause I know it’s from the heart. No matter how old our sons get, they will always be our baby boys!
And daughters, too. My oldest is one of my best friends. We go to school together, I kid you not. We’ll go to the coffeehouse and library to study together. We even saw Obama together when he visited our campus.
There does seem to be a difference between the boys and girls and I’m thankful I get to experience both.
Me, too. My two girls and I like to shop together. I am so thankful to have them in my life.
I started attending CLC right after college graduation in 1986–and stayed there, miserably trying to be godly enough to be accepted. I married a former TAGer who got the “men rule” part, but not the “servant leadership” or the “support your family” parts. So I went to work, had a baby and prayed that my husband would step up so we wouldn’t starve and began church counseling. He didn’t step up, so after a year of cobbling together very part-time work with no benefits, I began teaching half-time (with full benefits–Thank you Lord for unions!)
The church went through Biblical Counseling and all that focus on my sinfulness and the three trees and replacing bad fruit with good fruit scared me. My child didn’t quite fit the mold–now I know that he has both LD and ED issues, but then I thought it was just me. I hated the Ferberizing. I hated the moralizing about how harmful watching Arthur on PBS was. I didn’t want to spank a toddler–and hated to hear about moms who had spanked their kid 10 times that morning only to discover he had an ear infection. My husband left marks on our toddler–that my mom photographed. I should have left then.
My boy started at CLS in kindergarden, but he learned differently and slowly and melted down when the principal tried to spank him. So we withdrew him and put him in public schools where his individual needs would be addressed better. Our care group was disbanded–and we drifted for a season.
We had another baby. Our new care group decorated the door and brought food. The CG leader and the pastor counseled my husband again about providing for the family. We talked about the “anger” issues at home. The answer was more prayer, more submission on my part, more church counseling. I started working fulltime, so we might find some minimal financial security (a small townhouse).
My beautiful 8 year old grew so despairing that he talked about drowning himself in the bathtub–our first trip to the ER soon followed, and meds, and a therapist. She wondered why he was so angry. His father tried to discipline him by casting out demons, by pinning him to the floor, by punching holes in the wall/door and more. He regularly told me that I should be grateful that he still wanted me, that we didn’t deserve nice things or kindness, that the LORD had told him to pursue this opportunity and someday it will all pay off, and on and on. He refused to pray with me because I didn’t have a prayer language. My despair grew–I had no girlfriends at church (in part because I was employed not home, my kid was in public school not at CLS or homeschooled, and there just isn’t enough time to seek out those who aren’t in the carpool lane with you, especially those who are bruised reeds), my home life was so NOT CLC, and my extended family just wanted me out of there.
I did not sign the CLC covenant (membership agreement)–it worried me, smacking of The Scarlet Letter and The Crucible. I saw such brokenness in folks I knew who had left the church, including the pastor who conducted our wedding and got caught up in the whole Larry Tomzak mess. I grew increasingly frustrated with the pastors’ attempts to address serious mental illness as sin, to see abuse as just another opportunity to practice peacemaking and to complete a three-trees model, to be handed Puritan texts (like the Doctrine of Repentance) as if they were the cure-all, and more.
However, when my son was hospitalized again in 2005 and I thought it very likely that Child Protective Services would be “visiting”, they did agree to let the Care Group help me get my husband out of the house. Periodically we would meet together with the pastors to continue counsellng–and he grew increasingly hostile with them until he was disfellowshipped in 2007. He still attends CLC regularly.
In October, I attended my last Sunday morning service at CLC when the ladies on stage were singing and dancing about submission–and have not been back since. I’ve done some church shopping–and am attending lovely Episcopal church that is radically welcoming, non-hierarchical, with both male and female ministers. My son enjoys the Sunday evening service which gets it all done in 45 minutes–after years of messages alone that lasted that long (even in the youth meetings). My daughter alternates–a week with Dad and a week with Mom.
When I read about the Castillo children whose crazy father drowned them all a few months ago–and what that mom went through–and saw that she had only sought a “limited divorce” (basically a legal separation) I wondered if her pastors had told her that divorce was forbidden (except in cases of adultery)–as the CLC pastors had told me and other wives in abusive marriages. And I wept. Why? Why? Why? Why?
“And yet, I feel confident in this, I will see the goodness of the LORD in the land of the living.”
God has been so faithful to keep me close to Himself, to speak to me in the wilderness. Some friends have stuck by us–and some have not. I am so happy to be out of there–and am sickened by how long I drank the kool-aid, knowing it to be poisonous but looking at all the happy faces, hearing all the excitement, hoping that someday I too would have that life that looked so sweet.
Acme,
Thanks for sharing your story. I love the verse you quoted from Psalm 27. I have held on to that one many times myself. The translation I read says, “What, what would have become of me had I not believed I would see the goodness of the Lord in the land of the living.
Dear Acme,
Reading your story literally left me with no words to say… My heart just twisted in my chest as I read, feeling just a VERY small portion, to be sure, of the frustration and heartache you and your son endured. Praise God!! for His faithfulness, not only to set you and your children free from the “SGM Clone Machine”, but to keep you close to Himself.
It surprises me somewhat that your son would even want to go to another church after his experience at CLC… another of God’s mighty “miracles”!
This statement: “In October, I attended my last Sunday morning service at CLC when the ladies on stage were singing and dancing about submission–and have not been back since.” I can just imagine the thoughts running through your mind!… it’s a wonder you didn’t throw up right then and there, after all you had been through!
Thanks, Acme, for sharing your story here… Yours is a classic example of why reform is needed in SGM and it’s churches!
Acme,
Thank you very much for posting here. I have a lot to say in response, but it’s mostly knee-jerk stuff, so I’ll wait a while.
All I can say right now is “whoa!”, and thank you!
Same here (wrt the knee jerk reactions.)
I only want to be here to encourage others. All I can say is your story is quite familiar.
And you will heal with God’s grace.
Acme,
Your story is truly, truly heartbreaking. Has this all been recent (did you leave in Oct. 2007)? Jim put out a list of “when not to counsel others” that is very appropriate for your story. Some of the SGM leaders don’t have a clue! One day, I wonder if all this will come out by “60 Minutes”, or some other news show, because God will let the world judge what the church would not. I think that would be detrimental to us all, and our religious freedom. However, wife and child abuse should not be allowed by God’s church. If the church won’t discipline itself, the world will do it for us.
God bless you, Acme. The Lord is truly very good. He got you away from your husband and placed you somewhere safe. Draw near to Him.
We are all here for you!
I think it is time I tell my story. I will do so in a few hitches, so as not to take up your entire day! First let me preface it by saying, I have no lingering animosity toward the players in my little drama. It has been many, many years and I am well. If I ran into them on the street, it would not be hard to warmly greet them. This is a testimony, not to my goodness or theirs, but to the faithfulness of the Lord and the passage of time.
I am here and posting my story to document my own experiences with PDI and confirm to others who are currently struggling with some of the same issues, now nearly 20 years later, that they are not alone.
When my husband and I encountered PDI, we were a young couple with an infant daughter. We began attending an small, independent church in the mid 80’s that had an emphasis on family, worship and grace. It was exactly what we were looking for. My husband became part of the worship team and we threw ourselves into the church community. Shortly afterwards, it was announced that our church would be joining the PDI family of churches. One of the apostles came for an extended period to set the church in order, teaching PDI tenets and bringing everything up to PDI standard. The tone of the church was forever changed. Home group leaders were selected and my husband was asked to be one. As I recall, my husband was not all that enthusiastic about home group leadership. He was working, raising a family and already serving on the worship team which required set up and tear down each week, as our building was rented. Our home was too small to host a group, so we were asked to lead a group hosted by another family. It all seemed a bit overwhelming at the time, but as it turned out, he was convinced by the leadership that this was where God wanted him to serve, despite his reservations.
Our year as home group leaders was one of the worst of our lives, not because of the folks in our group or our experiences with them, but because of trials we faced. On the contrary, these dear friends helped us through a personal tragedy (a mid-term miscarriage, where I went for a routine sonogram and there was no heartbeat) and an illness (I had a horrible case of chicken pox). They blessed us in so many ways during those difficult days. Our hearts were knit to them in a way that we had never experienced before in a church setting. Then, when our second child arrived, they rejoiced and celebrated with us with great enthusiasm. We were experiencing the “shared life” (which was a title of one of the Foundation Series classes back then).
However, there were problems by this point as well. It fair to say my husband never really connected with the pastor he was “under.” He got in trouble for not following directions regarding the way home groups were to be conducted, which if I remember correctly meant talking about the pastor’s Sunday sermon rather than an unrelated Bible study or discussion. He got in trouble for not correcting a member of our group who had a different perspective on an issue. The “how to give and receive correction” sheets were distributed, taught and practiced without grace in some instances (IMO). The “woman” issue started to emerge, and the parenting errors like forcing toddlers to greet began as well. The pyramid hierarchy took shape, with the pastor investing in a few men (home group leaders, mostly) and the home group leaders then investing in men “under” them.
At the end of the year commitment to home group, we resigned. One of our closest friends stepped in to take our place. My husband went back to school to finish his degree, all the while still serving on the worship team and heading the set up/tear down team. The pastor was not pleased with him for this decision, but we were trying to follow God.
To be continued …
Continuing our story…
After my husband finished school (he didn’t have long to go), we re-presented ourselves to the pastor to see where he wanted us to serve. By this time, we had been indoctrinated with the pastoral authority mantra – the pastor is gifted and anointed to know where and how you are to serve in the local Body. We were somewhat skeptical, but decided to give it a shot again. I remember thinking, if this authority stuff is right, then the pastor will know God’s will for us and it will be confirmed in our hearts. Again, keep in mind, my husband was STILL serving on the worship team, leading set up/tear down and somewhere along the line, even taught one of the Foundation Series classes for new members. I would have liked nothing better than to hear the pastor say, you’ve got young children at home, you’re already serving weekly in the church, that’s enough for now. He did not. He wanted us to start a new home group. This time it was WAY across town in another family’s home. The fact that we had small children, limited finances, work schedule conflicts, etc. did not matter. More importantly, the fact that we had NO PEACE did not matter. After prayer, my husband called the pastor and declined the “offer.” This went very, very badly. The pastor was demanding and rude. My husband was deemed “a problem” and “independent” because he wouldn’t do what the pastor told him to do.
We were shocked and confused. (Jim has posted the Foundations tenets which were in place during our time at PDI. I am so grateful for that, for it helps me to remember WHY we were so confused. ) After a time (a couple of days, maybe?) my husband called the pastor back to confront him, like we were taught on the correction sheets. Believe me, we had been required to correct folks for sin that was not nearly as obvious as this pastor’s display. My husband’s sincere observation was – pastor, this feels more like a dictatorship than a church – maybe there is a spirit of control operating here. He wasn’t making demands or bringing division. The communication was private and, although those are strong words, his attitude was more along the lines of – hey, maybe we should ask the Lord about this. Even so, you can imagine, it didn’t go over very well.
That was the beginning of the end for us. The pastor set up a meeting with my husband and several other men. I was not specifically invited, but went anyway. I didn’t think it was a big deal, but my presence was not appreciated. The reason for the meeting was so my husband could explain his remarks about control issues and talk about the pastor’s bad reaction. But that turned out to be a not-so-funny joke. For several hours, my husband faced a barrage of accusations and personal attacks. The pastor sat there, like a victim, while his henchmen, one of whom was a dear friend of my husband’s, jumped on the bandwagon. After awhile, I spoke up, saying – aren’t we here to look at the pastor’s sin? Then they turned their focus on me, which my husband put an end to immediately. The meeting was over.
We did not recant. (Nor did we speak to anyone else about it.) Because we wouldn’t recant, we were “counseled” to go elsewhere to church, somewhere we could trust the pastors to lead us. When asked if we had a choice in the matter, we were told, “no.” The apostle was in agreement and there were even signs and wonders confirming we had to go. We asked what Scripture their actions were based on, but never got an answer. A person was sent to our house to remove my husband’s worship song book, like a soldier being stripped of his rank. At least some of our friends were told that we had a Jezebel spirit and we were compared somehow to Ananias and Saphira. Then the shunning began. With a few notable exceptions, our “shared life” was gone. Some people actually seemed frightened of us. We were devastated.
The YEARS that followed were lonely and dark. In fact, as I look back, it was the aloneness that hurt the worst. Like many in PDI, we had few relationships outside of the church and the overnight change from “one big family” to “nothing” was stark. We tried to defend ourselves. That did not go well, as everyone was so afraid of being accused of gossip or slander. Daily, we faced the accusation from the enemy of our souls that these great PDI men, whom we had such respect for, were sitting on one side of the table, with God, while we were on the other side, opposing them and Him. So fierce and persistent was the enemy with these lies that our family nearly fell apart.
Awhile later (months, maybe as long as a year), we received a letter from the pastor. He apologized for the “mutual escalation” in our situation. Not too thrilled with the “mutual” part, but his letter was cordial enough. We were grateful for what we got.
More to come (sorry, it’s long)…
And now comes my favorite part of the story. God moved in our lives! He sent His Spirit to heal and restore those locust-filled years. Along the way, He used some dear saints to speak His Truth and pray His Heart for us and in time, we were healed.
We had gained understanding of PDI’s errors, but we also needed to know our own. The Lord was faithful to reveal and convict us of the sins which had allowed us to become ensnared in the first place. How could we EVER allow any man to stand between us and the Lord, who paid so dear a price to provide a new covenant? Why did we care so much about pleasing those men and fitting into the mold? How could we have gone against God’s Word and our own consciences in some of the graceless proceedings there? We had to come to grips with the fact that WE had wounded folks by towing the PDI line. That WE had given permission for a man to step between us and Jesus, our True Mediator. That WE had allowed pride and then fear to be our motivator instead of God’s Love. It was gut-wrenching and humbling, but so freeing!
I’m grateful to God that He walked us through. I have such joy now in knowing that NEVER again will I hitch up that yoke of slavery. It is for freedom that Christ has set me free! We are free! We are healed! There is hope and a future for those who have been wounded and left in the wake of PDI authoritarianism. God has not given up on you, even if PDI has. You are not alone!
It is my prayer that God will redeem that which the enemy meant for evil and turn it for His Glory. If sharing my story can in any way assist in that goal, I’m thrilled.
Gracie!!!!
Again, you have stirred my heart! You continue to encourage me, and inspire me… and bring much, much hope to many who have walked in your shoes.
Thank you for sharing your story here… and for your openness and your willingness to expose yourself and your journey.
You already know this, but I’ll say it again… you are one of my heroes!
Gracie,
Thank you so much for telling your story. {{{{{{{{{{hugs}}}}}}}}}}
Gracie,
Oh my goodness! Thank you so much for sharing your story. It’s quite a story! There are so many things you shared that I can completely relate to. I understand how hard it is after you leave SGM as you said,
“The YEARS that followed were lonely and dark. In fact, as I look back, it was the aloneness that hurt the worst. Like many in PDI, we had few relationships outside of the church and the overnight change from “one big family” to “nothing” was stark.
This is how I’ve been struggling lately…constantly praying God would show me once and for all that my husband and I made the right decision in leaving. He did, and it was through this website. I had those lingering, nagging doubts about our decision.. I was really worried we were making a mistake…. that we were “in sin and rebellion” as some had said to us. God CLEARLY showed us that He led us out for our protection. We had been through enough.
I shared my story with a local pastor when I first left the church…. leaving out specifics, I just had to talk to someone about the things I saw that bothered me so much… the blatant sin. After listening to me pour my heart out for a long time, he simply said, “You need to repent.”
I was dumbfounded! Didn’t he hear what I just said? Didn’t he understand that there was a major problem with the pastors and the church? He continued, “You need to repent of allowing others to be God in your life.”
Whoa. This had NEVER crossed my mind. For the first time since I had arrived for my counsleing session, I was speechless. God clearly showed me what had been going on… what I had been blind to. I was truly thankful to be OUT of there and able to focus more fully on Christ, despite how lonely life seemed on the outside. Looking back, I can see how my walk with the Lord diminished over time since starting to attend a PDI/SGM church almost 10 years ago. The focus became the church. The church was God. The church was everything.
My heart was truly broken and my spirit wounded from the whole experience. It is hard to recover from spiritual abuse. Maybe one day I will share my story as well.
Reading your story just made my day. You are so sweet and such a strong woman of God =) Thank You.
Summer,
“You need to repent of allowing others to be God in your life.”
YES! If you email me that guy’s address, I’ll send him a box of his favorite…whatever.
Jim,
haha.. I should probably do the same! =)
He definitely made a wise observation.
Gracie, You said:
“We had gained understanding of PDI’s errors, but we also needed to know our own. The Lord was faithful to reveal and convict us of the sins which had allowed us to become ensnared in the first place. How could we EVER allow any man to stand between us and the Lord, who paid so dear a price to provide a new covenant? Why did we care so much about pleasing those men and fitting into the mold? How could we have gone against God’s Word and our own consciences in some of the graceless proceedings there? We had to come to grips with the fact that WE had wounded folks by towing the PDI line. That WE had given permission for a man to step between us and Jesus, our True Mediator. That WE had allowed pride and then fear to be our motivator instead of God’s Love. It was gut-wrenching and humbling, but so freeing!”
As I read your story, my heart felt like it was bleeding. This is so similar to what we experienced. God is so faithful to have taken you and your family out of slavery, into freedom. Like you, I had to look at WHY I would allow someone to stand between me and my true Mediator, Christ. SGM was to blame for teaching authoritarianism, but I was to blame for letting them take the place of my God. I think that, when we realize this about ourselves, it goes a long way towards giving us healing and forgiveness. God’s peace to you, Gracie, my friend!
Gracie, your story blessed me beyond words!
You’re one of my heroes, as well!
It’s the innocent, sweet little couples, as you and your husband once were, just looking for a church family where they can serve and share their life, clueless about the spiritual abuse, that motivate me to stay vigilant in getting the word out about SGM.
If I can help spare just one couple some of the pain and heartache, then my efforts are all worth it.
Thank you for sharing, Gracie. God has done a mighty work in you through all this!
Thank you all for your kind remarks and hugs!
Gracie,
Something that really struck me about your experience with SGM (or PDI back then) was how long ago this took place! Even back then these practices were being used in SGM! They seem to have fine tuned them a bit, but these practices are still alive and well.
Kinda scary, huh?!?!
Exactly. Some might think that PDI/SGM took this turn into authoritarianism when they turned more toward Reformed doctrines, or maybe more accurately, Puritan type doctrines. Not so. It was in place long before.
I remember that it wasn’t always this way. Things were done, but not stated plainly. Now, the gloves are off, and SGM states very clearly that the pastors mediate between man and God. If we’d be told this years ago, instead of just sensing a vague unease about their double mindedness, we would have left then! Instead, we were slowly indoctrinated, not by words, but by actions over time. THAT is scary!
I am new to this site. I left SGM 13 years ago after being involved deeply for 14 years (’81-’95). I left under good terms, but am still troubled by what I experienced. I am wondering how many people noticed or experienced the following treatment:
1. Demand for complete devotion and obedience
2. Complete conformity in everything from doctrine to dress
3. Any views contrary to those of leadership are wrong (not to mention that those views change)
4. If you disagree with correction you are prideful an unteachable
5. Summary dismissal or reassignment of leadership responsibilities for any reason with out discussion
6. Gathering information on people to build a case against them
7. Lying
8. Leadership reserves the right to tell someone what their “gift” is. This can be used to accomplish # 5 if no damning evidence is found. Note that your gift definition can be changed at any time to suit the goals of leadership.
9. “Passive excommunication” Those that do not agree with leadership or simply want to do something different (than the current ministry model) are not chosen for leadership and are encouraged to leave SGM.
10. Be quiet. You cannot discuss any opinion, idea, project, or issue not approved by SGM leadership. Members often support the hush policy.
11. Pride. Other churches are not as good as we are. Para-church organizations are bad. Leaders are elevated to an unhealthy position.
12, Curses. You won’t do well if you leave. If you do not submit (to extra-biblical rules), you are out of God’s will and will face consequences.
Pain
Finally, can any one help me understand why after so long, the experience at SGM hurts so badly. I have continued to attend church but have never regained my confidence.
Thanks
Greg,
Welcome and thanks for posting!
I can say that I personally experienced all of the above, except #12.
Greg,
I can’t attempt to address your pain in a public forum. Without further data, I would probably just tell you things that you’ve heard before.
If you ever want to talk, you can send me your number to sgmrefugeATgmail.com
Grace,
Jim
Greg,
Glad you posted! It would be good for you to talk with Jim. He and his wife, Carole, have great compassion for those who have suffered under SGM. Also, I have known others who have benefitted greatly by talking with a professional Christian counselor. If you’re still suffering after all these years, it’s time to get a break through. I understand the loss of confidence. I struggled with feeling invisible to people. I was not important. I was disposable. I know now that God does not think that way. It took years for me to understand His mind, and His love for me. You are important to the Lord. Never think otherwise!
Greg,
You are still hurting because you were abused. Spiritual abuse is incredibly painful and confusing, and I don’t think it’s something you easily or quickly heal from.
I’ve been dealing with the pain for a few years now as well, and I was involved with SGM for almost 10 years.
I experienced all the points you mentioned above (yikes). #12 was more of a family experience as they were the ones doing the “cursing”. It wasn’t an actual “curse”, but I was told I was in sin and rebellion over and over again… out of God’s will….deceived….blinded by my sin, and so on and so forth…. Yeah, that made life real peachy.
Yes, and counseling is wonderful! I’m glad you said that, Canary! I love my counselor! I’ve had some major breakthroughs as a result of our conversations… He is truly a God-send =)
Welcome Greg.
I’m cut and pasting your list.
1. Demand for complete devotion and obedience
Yes. I couldn’t even criticize Sheree Philip’s book in small group.
2. Complete conformity in everything from doctrine to dress
Yes. I got into trouble for the way I breastfed my children.
3. Any views contrary to those of leadership are wrong (not to mention that those views change)
Ezzo parenting is doctrine (or was,) responsive parenting; “Some would say you’re in sin” (direct quote.)
4. If you disagree with correction you are prideful an unteachable
Exact accusation because I wouldn’t agree to not discuss my parenting philosophies with others in the church.
5. Summary dismissal or reassignment of leadership responsibilities for any reason with out discussion
Well, the discussion was one sided it was a meeting to tell us to leave.
6. Gathering information on people to build a case against them
We got to hear the children of care group leaders’ children report on another couple in our care group. I was shocked.
7. Lying
Famously
8. Leadership reserves the right to tell someone what their “gift” is. This can be used to accomplish # 5 if no damning evidence is found. Note that your gift definition can be changed at any time to suit the goals of leadership.
Or to basically tell you that you don’t have any gifts. (Not directly said but implied and dh and I were told that we would *never* be considered for leadership roles.
9. “Passive excommunication” Those that do not agree with leadership or simply want to do something different (than the current ministry model) are not chosen for leadership and are encouraged to leave SGM.
We had our membership revoked but were chided for suggesting we were excommunicated, semantics and all.
10. Be quiet. You cannot discuss any opinion, idea, project, or issue not approved by SGM leadership. Members often support the hush policy.
Famously
11. Pride. Other churches are not as good as we are. Para-church organizations are bad. Leaders are elevated to an unhealthy position.
Yes. When our old church purchased land and began a building campaign, people’s sacrifices were mentioned. People were catagorized as “members,” and “leaders.” (Again allusions to Orwell’s Animal Farm.)
12, Curses. You won’t do well if you leave. If you do not submit (to extra-biblical rules), you are out of God’s will and will face consequences.
One parting comment from one of our ex pastors was that our marriage wouldn’t last ten years. How dare the cad say that about our marriage!
Wow! 10 our of 10. Dubious distinction, huh?
That’s wonderful, Summer! Our God is so gracious!
DB,
It is clear that, even from your experience, SGM desires uniformity instead of unity, conformity instead of conscience. Anybody who signs a membership contract with an SGM church (I still can’t believe that one!) is signing away their freedom in Christ.
Canary,
I was honestly hoping my experience was unique but the more I get to hear other people’s stories, this time Greg’s, the more I realize my story is part of a larger pattern.
Hi Greg and welcome!
Thanks for sharing. I’m sorry to say that I’m another who has experienced most if not all of your list. We were a part from about 1987-1990 before we were excommunicated or, how did you say it, DB? Had our membership revoked? Didn’t last too long did we! And yet the process of healing took longer than our entire time in PDI!
We’ll be praying for you and are so glad you are here!
Hi Greg,
Welcome!
Your list sounds all so familiar!
(btw: your church didn’t have a whole bunch of people leave shortly after you left, did it?)
Canary said:
“It is clear that, even from your experience, SGM desires uniformity instead of unity, conformity instead of conscience. Anybody who signs a membership contract with an SGM church (I still can’t believe that one!) is signing away their freedom in Christ. ”
Very well said Canary. So sad but true.
Thanks Steve240. Yes, it is very sad, and too unbelievable. I guess if you want the security of being like everybody else in the crowd, you don’t have to have much faith of your own. In essence, you get a “king” to rule over you.
about the leadership telling you what your gifting is – I remember one evening at care group my cgl (and Assoc Pastor) told me that I had the gift of mercy.
I laughed out loud in his face I thought it was so funny! Then I turned to my friend who I had known for years before we both came to the SGM church and said “Hey Mary, *** thinks I have the gift of mercy, what do you think?” To which she promptly started laughing too.
Needless to say the CGL was offended, and said that the Body “confirms” the gifts of one another. Yet I was thinking to myself – you only know what you see me do, you don’t know my heart. And since I had been serving only to impress them (I was an idolator at the time) he was really off base! It was then and there I realized they didn’t know me at all – they knew what I let them know. And I could play the hypocrite all day long. They had quenched the Spirit so much they had no discernment either!
I also found it ironic that a church that wasn’t even showing the FRUIT of the Spirit was thinking they were going to be able to identify the GIFTS of the Spirit..yeah, right.
Concerned,
You crack me up!
Canary said:
“Thanks Steve240. Yes, it is very sad, and too unbelievable. I guess if you want the security of being like everybody else in the crowd, you don’t have to have much faith of your own. In essence, you get a “king” to rule over you.”
Well as at least one person pointed out on the other blog, a lot of the people in SGM that stay seem to have a “catholic mentality” in that they are content with decisions and direction coming down from above and it not being questioned. As I understand it, in the Catholic Church, the regular members and even those above them rarely if ever question what the Pope says.
Thus the people in SGM are content and accept whatever the leadership says. “The leaders have spoken.”
Steve240,
That’s sure what it seems like, doesn’t it?
The style of leadership you all are refering to is called the Shepherding Movement. Tomacyz was big on that and the four square churches which he went on to promote use that style. It is like a pryamid. You submit yourself to the next in line and so on. Everyone under one umbrella. Everyone under some authority.
As far as Dan, I have seen the things he discussed with people we know and and people we witness too. Someone gets on a soapbox and beats the homosexuality thing to death. THEY WILL NEVER INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN RIGHT??? Wrongo! Actually liars and several other types of sins were listed there too. Unless the shed blood of Christ is applied as a sacrifice for our sins none of us inherit the kingdom of God. They forget to say that. They also forget to tell you that counted among the New Testament Christians were people of that former persuasion. No bones about it homosexuality is sin. It is against the created order God ordained. By the way so am I when I do half the sins I do. I wish I could escape sin too. Where ever I go it follows me.
I don’t think there can be any reconcilation with the people at that church. Only God can heal your hurt. No sin except not trusting in his son to save you is unforgivable. God loves you but hates your sin as he does mine also. I don’t believe they will ever give you the closure you need. If it were me and you really want to go to stuff at their church like a baptism I would go with someone you know. Be kind, friendly, but careful. Don’t let them in. Don’t ask permission. Maybe they won’t even notice. They will most definetly not want to make a scene. If they do others will see and perhaps their atitudes will change and they will really try to help others in the future. We need Christ people not Pharisees.
Let God in though. You may struggle with that sin always, who knows? Christ paid the price for your sins on the cross and mine also. That does not mean he wants us to go on sinning. We need to put our trust in what he did on the cross to save us. We need to repent from sin. We need to daily lean on God to help us overcome our sin. We need to pick ourselves up when we sin and try again with his help. He has the strength we need to walk this life. He sees us through Christ once we are saved. He sees the righteousness of Christ on us when we are saved because that is what Christ gave us. Our continuing sin which we all do damages our witness to the world. It can reap lasting effects in our lives because it violates God’s laws. When we do that it is a reap what we sow kind of thing. The reaping could be disease, destruction, who knows? God wants to spare us that so he gives the Holy Spirit and his word to help us fight the good fight. Because Christ overcame the devil, death, & world he helps us to do the same. We will never be perfect in this life. The Bible says if we say we are then we are a liar. There is no sin that God cannot save us from. When you are reading the story of the 99 sheep in the Bible he leaves all the others safely in their pen and goes looking for the one and then when he finds it he lifts it gently to his shoulders and carries it home truimphantly. Heaven rejoices when one sinner is found and gets saved. Dan you are that one sheep. If it were only you out there. Jesus would have come looking just for you. When he finds you and you find him (trust him) all heaven rejoices… He loves you not your sin… God loved us enough to send Christ to die for us while we were yet sinners…. I am praying for you.
I wish they had really been able to care enough to help you. I may not agree with that sin. Iam sure you don’t with my sins either but I can still care. I am praying for you. Please pray for me also.
Annie
*If any church is a real church anyone should be able to go. I go to church with people living together, liars, gossipers, and other sinners. We all do. They can preach that the sin is wrong and exclude those the bible excludes from leadership and membership but everyone should be able to attend services. We were sinners before we were saved and we are still sinners after. The difference is that Christ covers our sin with his sacrifice and gives us the Holy Spirit to help us to fight it.
God bless you Dan and let your sin be your sin… it does not define you… homosexuality is the sin you do… not who you are… just like I am not my sins they are something I do…. it is not the sin of caring for another that God condemns in your particular sin but instead that it is against the way he made us and if everyone did that the human race would become extinct… we were made in his image and that goes against the image he made us to be…. that being said I can’t wait to get to heaven where all those kinds of things are removed temptation wise.. what a freedom that will be… I am praying for you….
Annie
Quote from Gracie, “how did you say it, DB? Had our membership revoked?”
Dismembered is what I call it.
Hi Annie,
Welcome to The Refuge!
I don’t necessarily want to speak for Dan (Dan… please forgive me if I am stepping on your toes here…), but I must respond to your comment. I’m not sure if you read his whole story or not, but it seems as if you don’t have the full scope of what actually took place.
First, Dan was not living in sexual immorality, nor did he confess to leadership that he was. They assigned that sin to him, even though it was untrue. What he did confess to them was depression, and began damaging himself because he was struggling with his sexuality. His sin was in his thoughts, he never acted on them. (“Struggling” is a key word here… the connotation being “fighting with himself”… says a lot about his heart, and his convictions.)
This seems to be typical in SGM leadership… they hear one thing, jump to conclusions, and all of a sudden, you are accused of things you haven’t done, and if you don’t “confess” to their trumped up charges, and don’t submit to their legalistic rules and regulations, you are disfellowshipped. No matter how hard you try to defend yourself with the truth, they don’t want to hear it, they have already judged you and convicted you.
This is exactly what happened to Dan. He went to leadership with a sin issue (as we are taught to do in SGM) that he was struggling with, and even though he had never acted upon these thoughts, he was accused of doing exactly that. And when he didn’t confess to their accusations and didn’t follow along with their ultimatums, he was kicked out of their church. Not very kind or loving… or even helpful.
Unfortunately, these are the kinds of unbiblical, authoritarian practices that SGM and their churches engage in. It’s wrong and it damages people… it damages their lives, and their relationship with God.
Which is one of the reasons Jim and I have been called to do what we are doing here. And, although I certainly appreciate your concern for us (as you have stated in other comments on this blog), God is our strength and He has given us everything we need to accomplish this task that He has set before us. There is no need for you to be concerned about pain that SGM may try to inflict upon us, nor any gossip or slander or disappointment that may come our way. We’ve already experienced all of those things and have come out the other side stronger and closer to God than ever before.
And we have hope… we have hope in a mighty God Who loves us, Who changes men’s hearts, a God Who fills us with hope and faith that His will be done here on this earth and in this situation and this church movement.
Well said, Carole!
Wow, thanks. I never imagined that affirmation would be so quick and comprehensive. Unfortunately, my story is not one you would want others to be able to identify with. Now that I know I am not imagining these problems, here is my story.
I came to Christ and joined Gathering of Believers in College Park Maryland in 1981 at the tender age of 18. Coming out of an abusive background, I was really in need. I have to say from the first up to this day I have been well loved, cared for, and respected by my friends at what became Covenant Life Church. Overall it was a wonderful experience that grounded me in Christ. Many may be surprised know that in the beginning, GOB/CLC/SGM was doctrinally open and influenced by classic Christian writers such as C.S. Lewis, A.W. Tozer and other “mystics” that emphasized a strong devotional life and hearing God for yourself. There was also a strong emphasis on missions and social issues. Ironically, my embrace of these foundations would prove to be my undoing as the organization changed.
There was some evidence legalism and control early on. For example, you had to ask permission to date. Having plenty experience with controlling personalities, I attributed this to immaturity in specific people, and I generally ignored attempts to control me.
I served in a variety of lay leadership roles over the years and I personally knew most of the early leaders (Several of these men have had to leave SGM in order to fulfill their calling.) Overall my ministry experience was well rounded and quite positive. My problems began when I entered cell group leadership and developed an interest in missions.
I led a successful group which multiplied into two groups. At that time, my pastor met with me and told me that I had not only a gift of leadership but a “rare ability to develop leadership in others.” However, I found myself constantly butting heads with leadership over how to run a cell group. I was supposed to dress preppy (I’m a musician, and I’m leading singles in their 20s). I was supposed to go through whatever book was the “next greatest thing”. However, I was more interested in developing leadership in men. I noticed since we were always reading books, none of them had ever learned how to lead a bible study. So I wanted to teach hermeneutics, bible study, and facilitation. I had to fight for permission to do that. One of the books we were all supposed to read was heretical. I got into a major fight with my pastor over it. When I escalated the matter to senior leaders, they finally read the damn thing and agreed with me. The questionable chapters were now optional reading. However, I was rebuked for discussing the issue in a cell group meeting. About a year later, the author was exposed for immorality and the book was forever dropped from the CLC reading list.
Things came to a head when participation in my original group declined. At one meeting, I challenged the group to decide if they really wanted to meet. If so, great, if not, then I would recommend to the pastor that we disband and find other groups to attend. Admittedly, my approach to the problem could have been more graceful. Ironically, the group responded very positively. About a week later, I was called into his office on a Saturday morning and dismissed from leadership effective immediately. There was no process, prior discussion, or anything I could do. Man was I hurt. I had poured my heart and soul into cell group ministry. His observation was that I did not have a leadership gift and was not called to leadership. Such a gift would be evidenced by success (note the circular reasoning). I had no problem with stepping down; frankly, I was burnt out. However, I challenged both the basis and the process for my dismissal. I also refused to talk with him unless his senior leader was present.
That led to a painful series of meetings over nine months with him and his pastor. To their credit, they were willing to meet with me for however long it took to resolve the matter. My pastor tricked my friends into cooperating with an investigation of my faults. My character and motives were constantly challenged. Finally, I caught my pastor in a lie in front of his pastor. The senior leader asked me to leave for a moment, and when I returned, they apologized sincerely. (This may have been a historic event). I have to admit that this process was extremely difficult. It required a lot of strength, persistence, and all the tactical skill of a trial lawyer. Understandable, most SGM members don’t make it through the process, and just leave. I would not have but for the grace of God.
I then turned to my attention to the “not a leader” claim. I told the senior leader that I did not want to be branded. I had to recount my history with CLC, everything they had said about me in the past, and of course, the doctrinal problems with their ideas about gift identification. They finally agreed that I was eligible for future leadership positions. The whole thing boiled down to my pastor feeling that he was losing control of the group and felt he had to do something. The only remaining question was whether I would remain at CLC due to my interest in pioneer missions.
(Note: I never took on the shift to Calvinism which was taking place that time. I had observed others charge up hamburger hill and get shot down, and I was not interested in going there.)
That leads me to the coup de grace. I had started a missions prayer meeting with other folks that lasted several years and formed the basis of the CLC international ministry. This same pastor viewed the meeting as subversive and was always trying to find out what was going on and if he could shut it down. It was comical if not sad. Around the time that the church plant in Manila was shut down and Larry’s sister and brother in law were forced out. C.J. shut down the whole missions focus on the basis that PDI was not “called” to pioneer missions. That left those of us who were mission minded hanging with nothing to do. I love C.J., but I have to disagree with the whole series of events that led to Larry being phased out and the vision of PDI changing.
Over the next few years (early 90s), I met periodically with leaders about my interest in pioneer church planting. I did not aspire to be a pastor, but I really wanted to join a church planting team in a Muslim country. I had intentionally chosen a mission agency that was very similar to PDI in its views of apostolic ministry and church planning. This, of course, was out of the question. The reasoning was as follows:
1. All mission efforts other than church planning as practiced by PDI do not result in lasting fruit
2. Only pastors selected by the apostolic team can start new churches
3. You are not called to be a pastor
4. Therefore, you cannot plant a church
I was accused of being proud. One pastor claimed that I was only interested in missions for the “glory”. Anyone who has served in foreign missions knows how absurd that comment is. I was in a painful dilemma of having to chose between staying at my church, the only home I had ever known, and obeying God in regard to missions (Rom 15:20-21). In retrospect, I should never have been placed in that position.
Unable to leave CLC, I tried to do both. This proved to be difficult as they refused to give me a clear recommendation, and I was placed under restrictions. The pastoral recommendation sent to my mission agency was worded something like, “we confirm that Greg feels a call to missions”. My agency had some familiarity with PDI and agreed to let me proceed under that condition that I improve the sending relationship. My situation was made more difficult due to a variety or restrictions PDI placed on me. I was not allowed to address the congregation (most of whom I knew) or any cell groups, and I was not allowed to raise funds publicly. Obviously, I objected that they did not have the authority to tell me who I could and could not talk to. Finally, they conceded to allow me to talk about my mission with my friends. Having few relationships outside of CLC, I was forced to try to make this work.
By the grace of God, I managed to pay for all my own training over a two year period, form a support team, and raise funds for an exploratory trip. I received fantastic support from my friends in CLC, but opposition from leadership. Quite a few people in CLC with missions interest were watching to see what would happen with me.
I finally made it to the field. Before I left, I entrusted a description of my trip and a prayer letter with my pastor. Since I had to do everything through him, he promised to give copies to the pastoral team, all of whom I had know and worked with over the years. Some had interest in my plans. I deeply coveted their prayers and covering.
Conditions on the field were rough. All I will say is that it was a Muslim country in the middle of a civil war, and you can imagine the rest. Nevertheless, I felt that I was in the center of God’s will like never before. I returned to the U.S. three months later due to illness and the need to raise support. Despite all that happened on the field, my return home was absolutely devastating. Having adapted quickly to field conditions, reverse culture shock was unbelievable. No one understood what I was going through, though my friends helped as best as they could. I fell into a deep depression. One day, one of the pastors, a friend of mine, ran into me in church and said, “Hey Greg, I haven’t seen you for a while, where have you been?”
That was the final blow. No wonder I was struggling. My letter never made it past my pastor. I had been completely uncovered with virtually no prayer support. When I asked my pastor what happened, he said he forgot. I doubt that. I think it was intentional, the latest in a series of controlling actions. What really hurt we was that I had served these guys for 14 years, doing everything asked of me, making every effort maintain good relations, and in the end, when my life was on the line, they deserted me.
I was lost. After another year of not knowing what to do, my mission finally asked that I not return to the field until I found a suitable sending church. I asked God to end it for me. I can’t preach the gospel, I really don’t want to live.
Finally, a local pastor found out about my situation and sent me a tape to encourage me. I got up the courage to leave CLC. Why was that so hard? Why had I not done it years earlier?
I left CLC under good terms in ‘95. I was never shunned. Years later when a friend was planning to leave, C.J. told him, “If you want to know how to leave a church well, ask Greg; he did it right.” Unfortunately, I was not well. I went back to work and never went back to the field except for some short trips to various places. I still regret that. I’ve wandered from church to church and just gone through the motions of life. I fell into addictive sin, from which I am just recovering in the last two years. Through it all God has been kind and merciful and has carried me a blessed me with a family, for which I am very grateful. My wife probably saved my life although she is still hurt by my past behavior.
This brings me to last weekend and why I am writing. A close friend of many years asked me to join the board of directors of his mission. He is a successful African pastor and a former CLC member who I met during my early days there. On the plane headed to the annual board meeting, I sat next to another African pastor. He told me his story, how he had been betrayed by church leaders in the states, and how that almost destroyed his vision. A knife went through my heart and I cried.
I take full responsibility for my actions in recent years and the consequences, but it is clear that his deep sense of betrayal, failure, and remorse weighs heavily on me still, and I must be healed from that before I can continue with the original plan and design God has for my life.
Thank you for listening. I don’t seek to accuse anyone. I hope sharing my story will be part of the healing process and help others. No matter what you are going through at SGM, above all, maintain your integrity, because in the end, it may be the only thing you have left.
Wow Greg.
Thank you so very, very much for posting.
I need to let this sink in before commenting, but please know that I’m praying for you.
I’ll start right now.
Oh Greg. I am so so sorry. {{{{{{{{{}}}}}}}}}}} <— hugs to you & your family
Greg,
You, like us, have had your trust crushed by your experience. Some of us have struggled with trusting others again. Don’t let this stop you. It has to help that you know others have gone through similar experiences, some worse, some not. A professional Christian counselor can help you understand what happened and help you to heal, by God’s grace. Be sure the person is trustworthy, because you will be bearing all. But don’t be afraid to trust again. Though your experience was very tragic, the Lord will use it for good. He promises that.
As for your falling into an addiction, let me just say that we tend to turn to something, anything for comfort when our vision is killed. You were looking for comfort in places where God was not. I’m sure you have learned from that experience as well that nothing, no one can ever fill the spot in our hearts that was meant for the Living God. No guilt, my brother. You are forgiven!
Please stay in touch with us. We are here to help you through. Your heart for the lost is exactly what this world needs. PDI made it a practice (knowingly or not) to be rid of evangelists (Chai Ahn, Larry, others that were called to bring in the lost). I don’t know why. You are in a league with the best of them, Greg. When it is the right time, the Lord will stir up the embers of your vision, and build them into a great fire. There is a harvest of souls waiting to be reaped in these last days. You are a part of that! Jesus said, “Believe in God, believe also in Me.” Start there. Let the Lord heal and refresh you. Do not be afraid to trust again. My heart is lifting you to our Father, who is so wonderful! It’s going to be all right. Your sister in Christ, Canary
As far as the thing with Dan if I misspoke I am sorry. My hsband and I have two work acquaintances that have been burned by churches. They are both practicing homosexuals. They are interested in Christ but are afraid to go to any church because of being burned so badly. I would love to see them get saved and get healing and help. I would love to see them be added to a local church body where they could fellowship. I may not agree with that lifestyle but God does not agree with my sinfulness either. I wanted to come to some sort of support for Dan. I am so sorry for what he went through. No sin is unforgivable. Leadership was intrusted to protect us. I am sure Dan will have much trouble ever trusting anyone. This is not the first time I have seen that stuff. I mean stuff being not kept private. I pray for Dan his story touched and scared me.
In our case sadly we look at every pastor skeptically. We went to another church after leaving SGM and experienced some of the same stuff. It was a shock to realize it was everywhere.
For Greg … whew… your story has really made me think a lot… I am so sorry for what you went through. Thank you for sharing what must have been very painful…. I am praying for you…
Greg – praying for you too. Thank you for sharing. Stories of redemption (and yours is a story of redemption, and more ot come!) always make my heart sing!
Isn’t our Lord wonderfully good to us? The vision is Christ Himself..something SGM lost a long time ago. Keep your eyes on Jesus, brother. Preach the gospel! Fight the Good Fight and finish well!
Greg,
I am sorry. There is something here that I just can’t understand. I will NEVER understand. Aren’t pastors supposed to help each of us find out what God has deposited in our hearts and fan it to flame for the Kingdom? Wouldn’t that be a tremendous way to serve God’s people and the advancement of the Gospel of Jesus? Yet these men are so resistant to callings that are different from their PDI-approved vision. They want to fit each of us into THEIR mold and ministry - how do you fit into OUR vision for this local church – a very narrow view IMO. Involvement in parachurch organizations is discouraged and even looked upon suspiciously. As I said, I do not understand this! Wouldn’t a pastor be THRILLED to see his flock obeying the Lord and the Great Commission? Even if it didn’t have the PDI/SGM leadership in control of it?
I am sorry that you went to a Muslim nation without a prayer cover from your church family. That is beyond words. I know of one young person who always felt a calling to a specific foreign nation and was discouraged so frequently by SGM leadership, that she finally gave up. The very treasure the Lord had put in her heart, the compassion and desire to serve the poor and needy – squelched, not fanned to flame. WHY??
Also, I know of others that have been so demoralized by their experiences in PDI that they have fallen into sins that shocked everyone. But God has set them back on their feet and reconciled them to Himself. He has given them back their integrity. (If you get a chance, try to look up Pia’s story on the sgmsurvivors blog. She is very open about her failings and God’s restoration.)
I am so glad to hear that your desire to serve Him in missions is still in tact. We will be praying for healing, especially for the weight of betrayal, failure, and remorse you live with to be obliterated, and for fulfillment of the desires of your heart! Blessings to you!
Greg… Wow! Again, I am rendered speechless. One would think, after hearing story after story, that one would become anesthetized after a while. Not so! I will be praying for you, along with all of the others here… God has a purpose and a plan for you, my friend!
Annie… I’m so sorry you have experienced many of the same things at the hands of SGM that others have faced. I hope and pray that you and your husband are at a place in your walk with the Lord where He can heal your hearts and your hurts. I will be praying for you, dear Annie… and I covet your prayers for us, as well.
Greg, I’m so sorry about your experience. You are not alone!
You said, ” I must be healed from that before I can continue with the original plan and design God has for my life.” God is mighty and holy–he is never derailed–his plans for his people are never thwarted. He knows the plans he has for you, plans to prosper you, not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future. He is all there is, he is not waiting for you to do something to get yourself back on the train, not waiting for you to get yourself back together. You can’t!
Your healing is his calling for you today. Your pain echoes His suffering, your betrayal is a shadow of His betrayal. He is with you, and your weakness is an opportunity for his strength. I wonder even how your words on this posting will have an impact as the body considers, through your testimony, how we wound one another.
Take heart, my brother! Your Abba loves you, he draws you to himself with lovingkindness, he rejoices over you with singing, he will quiet you with his love.
ReformedTeacher,
So beautifully said!
Greg –
Pain
Finally, can any one help me understand why after so long, the experience at SGM hurts so badly. I have continued to attend church but have never regained my confidence.
Yes I can. SGM uses a brain washing technique called de-motivational management as part of their structure. It is intended to cause a mild depression and often leads to long term psychological harm. I wrote a post about it a while back. The good thing is if you realize what was done to you and start taking actions where you can effect outcomes it will go away.
CD,
I’m not going to have a long discussion about this online, but you can email me with a number or give me a call.
You are free to link to your site, which has a link to gay friendly churches, but I’ve removed the direct links to those churches in your last post.
To affirm what Scripture clearly calls sin, which is sex outside of marriage, which in Scripture is between a man and a woman, is outside of orthodoxy.
Please feel free to send me a note. sgmrefuge AT gmail.com
Thanks to all for your understanding, prayers, and sound advice. This has been very helpful.
Multiple Personality Disorder?
What I have always wondered about is how SGM churches, and CLC in particular, is how they can care for so many people well most of the time and at the same time can be so damaging to others. I can name at least 6 pastors who have always been kind and understanding and never attempted to demean or control me, while a few others have been so ruthless. I have friends at CLC who have been quite healthy and happy for many years. The relationships I formed in the 80s are still among my most loyal and trusted friends. At the same time, I have watched people be horrible wounded for no good reason. So, here are some ideas to ponder:
1. How is it that churches can be helpful and toxic at the same time?
2. Are some people more immune to control than others? Are they just not sensitive to it, or have they learned to “play the game?”
3. I have felt that SGM churches are for the well and not the sick. That is, if you are relatively strong and have your life in order, you are much less likely to attract negative attention than if you have problems or responding out of hurt.
4. Is it possible that the culture of SGM has gotten worse over the years? It may be that the relationships and internal respect that I built in the early 80s helped me whether the turbulent changes in the 90s.
5. Does SGM reward dominance? The “nice”pastors I have known over the years have either left or remained at the same position for many years, and I guess learned to be content with that. The really controlling ones seem to get promoted. The pattern I have seen in these men is obsequious devotion to their superiors and dominance of those below them.
6. Does SGM operate on the principle, “the nail that sticks up gets hammered down”? If so, how did this evolve? If is is true, then the rule for survival would be keep your head down or move on. Innovators need not join.
7. Since SGM was birthed in the DC area, have the spiritual strongholds of that area: pride, legalism, control, and hypocrisy affected the culture of the entire organization? I often felt that surviving in a leadership role at CLC was like working for the government.
8. Victims of success. SGM’s relative success has made them oblivious to correction. I know many senior leaders in the Body of Christ have tried over the years. Only a major upheaval would make them consider changing.
9. How can we respond to situations like this in a Christ like manner? For many years I prayed for CLC/SGM to change to no avail.
Comment? Observations?
Greg,
Wow, my only comment is that your comments are so accurate and insightful.
Greg has asked some profound questions and this is my feeble attempt to cut and paste and answer.
1. How is it that churches can be helpful and toxic at the same time?
I think a lot of this involves temperament. Very docile personalities or alphas that have been strategically placed in roles of authority tend to thrive.
2. Are some people more immune to control than others? Are they just not sensitive to it, or have they learned to “play the game?”
I think some can fly under the radar very well, others play the game. I can only imagine many others put on a Church Face and are entirely different people behind closed doors. Some people are docile and don’t mind being controlled. Others have grown up in legalistic and controlling environments and some of these people have likely given up and are victims of learned helplessness.
3. I have felt that SGM churches are for the well and not the sick. That is, if you are relatively strong and have your life in order, you are much less likely to attract negative attention than if you have problems or responding out of hurt.
I sensed a certain bias in favor of the perfect family, so to speak. A dad in either a successful profession or is a successful entrepreneur. The mother is cute and perky and submissive. They have three to six docile, well-behaved children. Having pre-existing opinions that don’t harmonize with SGM dogma isn’t good. Naive but pliant is good.
4. Is it possible that the culture of SGM has gotten worse over the years? It may be that the relationships and internal respect that I built in the early 80s helped me whether the turbulent changes in the 90s.
I thought I had formed strong close relationships in the 1980’s but I now believe I was some people’s, “project.” Things got much worse in the 1990’s. I can trace things going very badly to CJ’s Coup d’état in the early ‘90’s.
5. Does SGM reward dominance? The “nice”pastors I have known over the years have either left or remained at the same position for many years, and I guess learned to be content with that. The really controlling ones seem to get promoted. The pattern I have seen in these men is obsequious devotion to their superiors and dominance of those below them.
If you have a Y chromosome, have been hand-picked by other dominant figures and are (hopefully,) bald, dominance is rewarded. If, on the other hand, you are a low ranking male, a woman, or a child, dominance is tied to some indwelling sin. Heck, you can’t even be spirited without the powers-that-be interpreting that as evil spirited.
6. Does SGM operate on the principle, “the nail that sticks up gets hammered down”? If so, how did this evolve? If is is true, then the rule for survival would be keep your head down or move on. Innovators need not join.
Generally, if you are not the Alpha Male, keeping a low profile is a good thing. There are very few women that have memorable personalities. I’m not sure how it evolved. At least since some of the complementation teachings emerged. That people have noticed that the lesser pastors try to copy CJ’s speaking quirks is telling.
7. Since SGM was birthed in the DC area, have the spiritual strongholds of that area: pride, legalism, control, and hypocrisy affected the culture of the entire organization? I often felt that surviving in a leadership role at CLC was like working for the government.
That is a fascinating thought. You might also consider the era in which the church emerged as well. The SGM personality is very much in step with the stereotypes of the 1980’s.
8. Victims of success. SGM’s relative success has made them oblivious to correction. I know many senior leaders in the Body of Christ have tried over the years. Only a major upheaval would make them consider changing.
Their behavior is definitely being positively reinforced. Unless they start hemorrhaging members, they have no reason to change unless their hearts are softened by the Holy Spirit, but the Lord has given them free will and they must choose to be responsive. The trail of hurt Christians should be sufficient warning, but, oh well.
9. How can we respond to situations like this in a Christ like manner? For many years I prayed for CLC/SGM to change to no avail.
I think forums such as this has afforded us a voice for which I am thankful. These people are our brothers in Christ and we must treat them as such in spite of their callousness and the pain they have caused so many people. I believe prayer and purposing to have a Christ-like attitude combined with hope (albeit unjustified,) of reconciliation is a good start; at least for me.
I’m creating a page on “the rules”, as addressing what few rules we have here in a comment or two is not enough at this point.
CD and I disagree on this issue, and many will come here who disagree on a variety of issues.
My stance is this-this is a public forum, the public square if you will. Everyone is welcome, but since I’m renting the square, I’ll have some requests on it’s use.
The way this functions is, be nice to Carole, and if you have a view that is outside of what is considered orthodoxy, feel free to invite others to the part of the square that you rent (your blog) to discuss those issues.
Ok, so this friend of mine, Not me of course
He was actie in this church, the Pastor had told him he was called to preach, had said he was his apprentice. And this handsome and well gifted young man, who was very verile and quite well spoken, was humble to a tee, had a true gift to love the unlovable and could walk on water, he started going to the Assembly of God bible college. This fine young upstanding man, who was quite gifted and humble began to see that what he read in the Bible, and what he was being taught and told to teach could not line up without streching and skewing the words of the very God he had been called to teach.
This fine upstanding perfect in almost every way young man (not me) went to his Spiritual Father type person and told him this. It was amicably agreed that this fine young preacher should seek a place where he could teach what he saw in scripture as he could not teach that which he thought was false. The Pastor again agreed on his calling to teach the word of God, and sent him on his way. He then placed a phone call to every other Pastor in town and warned them of this wolf in sheeps clothing. And warned his congregation to see this young man as Anathema. The young man was crushed by this.
6 months later, the youngman was called to plant a church in his town, and he began work on said plant. Not knowing that the NAMB had a little thing in thier church planters guidelines that mentioned swallowing up little ministries he agreed to help another Plant while he worked on his calling. This plant tried to swallow him up, but the young church planter had been given a copy of the NAMB policies for planting and recognised what was happening.
1.6 years laterm the young reformed Charismatic pastor is planting his little church, and has two Calvary Chaple Pastors watching over and tending his plant, and is very happy.
God is good, people are not.
Thank you
Eric,
Did the young man love his ex pastor enough to confront him in his sin, or did he leave him to wallow in it?
He confronted him immediately, and was brushed off. Then again when he saw him a Lowes and again was brushed off. He then prayed for him and his congregation and began to focus on the ministry God had called him too and left the other situation in Gods hands being as none of his old congregants would even acknowledge him when they passed and he said hi in the Safeway aisle or wherever.
I hope for repentance, but praise the lord that the congregation has gone from 300 to 30. Vengence is mine sayeth the Lord. He is very protective of His sheep and is not happy when even one is trampled assunder. Which is a very sobering thought for a Pastor methinks.
God’s discipline is such a scary concept. If all the guy lost was his church, he got off light.
Fear (Awe) of the Lord is truly the beginning of wisdom
Hello Everyone- Here is our STORY- My wife and I (And 4-6 other families, including the former worship leader) left a SG Church less than a year ago, after seven years. We were a part of starting the church, were in leadership as Care Group Leaders, and served in other areas of service leadership. Our experience is similar to what I have been reading here and in other blogs. The leadership structure was sinfully authoritarian and controlling. We first noticed this when several families (friends) abruptly left years before we did. I was at that time stunned that anyone would leave what I considered to be the perfect church, so I reached out to these families to better understand what they were going through. The pastor was extremely irritated that I had the audacity to go and talk with these former members without notifying him. Other members asked me if I had gotten the pastor’s permission before I went and talked to them. At first I didn’t understand and just felt like, “What do you mean ‘permission’?” It turns out that the families all left in response to the control and abuse they experienced, though I didn’t understand what they were talking about at the time and I guess I blamed them. Our story began when my wife and I initiated a friendly meeting with our pastor/friend about what seemed to us to be a subtle shift in the church away from grace and toward legalism (The sermons, Care Group themes, etc.) It seemed like we were beginning to “drop the ball,” to quote CJ, when it came to the gospel. Well, we left the meeting 3-hours later, feeling well corrected, as the pastor and assistant pastor tag teamed us. This started a series of forced meetings with the pastors, over the course of a year or more, where our hearts were examined and we were denied attendance at the care group of our choice and warned to not talk to others about anything. Eventually, I was told that I could not count the offering anymore (I was the lead guy), then could not be on the Greeting Team, and finally, we were told we could not attend Care Group at all. Many people were shocked, but assumed the pastors knew what they were doing so didn’t ask questions. It was at this time that sermons from the pulpit were about, “protecting your pastors,” and “submitting to their authority and making it a joy to lead you.” I was determined to stay with my church family, His Body, and not succumb to the bullying by the pastors, but after receiving an absurd e-mail with accusations from the pastor, and feeling somewhat shunned by some others, we decided to leave peacefully to avoid a fight. I am concerned that this is not a local problem, but SGM-wide. I am sure that our pastors’ behavior was either condoned or overlooked by the regional SGM leadership team here. I think I will post this in other blogs as this is the first time I have summarized our experience.
Thanks for sharing, Keith!
Argh! Are they reading from a canned script? Is this the topic of one of the weeks at the Pastors College?
Hi Keith,
Welcome to the blog. You are certainly not alone. Many of us have gotten in trouble for not getting a pastor’s permission for something or other.
Acme, I think they must teach some of these techniques in the pastor’s college. I don’t see how else it could be so similar and widespread.
Hi Keith!… and welcome to The Refuge!
Thank you so much for sharing your story here. Sad to say, I’ve heard this same story over and over again, only the names and location have changed… so I agree with you that this is a widespread problem, SGM wide.
But that doesn’t change the fact that my heart was twisting as I read of you and your family’s experience at your SGM church. I’m so saddened that this was your experience!
(May I ask how you and your family are doing now? Of course, don’t feel obligated to respond… and if you would rather reply off the board, you can send an email to SGMRefugeATgmailDOTcom)
Grace,
Carole
Hi Keith,
Thanks for sharing, and I’m sorry for the pain you and your family went through. I was also in leadership and very devoted to SGM until I ran into the control issue. While my series of meetings ended amicably, I still had to leave in order to move on with God. Here are a few things to remember. In case you haven’t already realized it:
1. This was not your fault, and there probably wasn’t much you could do about it and maintain your integrity. Obviously, shutting up and saying sorry for reaching out to someone was not an option.
2. There is a grieving process due to the level of trust may of us put into SGM, so don’t be surprised if that takes a while.
3. If you get into a good church, you will find that the grace and freedom you are likely to experience will, over time, more than make up for any loss or injustice you feel. You and your family will be better off. All things work for the good of those who love the Lord and are called according to His purpose.
I’ll be praying for you.
Greg, Very wise advice.
Keith,
We get you. It hurts so much in the end to realize how we were a part of a group of people whose leaders were more concerned about us staying in our places, instead of finding our places in God. It would be interesting to see the letter sent to you (with names changed, of course). I’m considering putting up a letter sent to my husband and I, if he agrees. The more proof we can give that these things actually took place, the better! Welcome to the blog!
Hey Keith,
Thanks so much for sharing. Everytime you hear stories like yours it’s just as hard to hear. Like Carole said, it definitely is a widespread problem. My heart and my prayers go out to you and your family.
Keith,
Welcome! Thank you for sharing your story!
Did you and the others leave as a group, and are you still friends?
Keith,
Sounds like you had a lightening bolt too =)
You and your family are on my heart and in my prayers, as is everyone on this site and in Sovereign Grace. I’m so glad you shared with us. Thanks =)
Summer! LOLOLOL!!!
How are you doing? Send me an email when you get a chance and let me know how things are going… (if you want…)
Hello All,
There was a good message at New Life Church last Sunday on dealing with offense. The audio and video can be found here.
I hope it blesses you.
Greg
http://www.newlifechurch.org/
Well, as I promised Concerned, here is my story. (As you all can probably tell from the posting time, I’m no morning person).
My name is Ryan (last name edited by Jim), I’m 22, and I was an intern at the SGM church in St. Petersburg, Florida. When I posted at SGM survivors about 6 months ago, I used the name “exintern” because I hoped that a little anonymity would help protect me in my efforts to salvage some of my friendships at the church. The lies my old senior pastor spread about me have pretty much ended 95% of those friendships, so I don’t have anything to gain anymore by not disclosing my name. So, here I am, I’m not concerned with who knows I’m on here anymore, though I’ll probably keep posting under “exintern” for the sake of continuity.
I came to SGM in 2002 as a senior in high school. I made some friends, settled in despite some misgivings about the church’s lack of missions/evangelism (I’ve wanted to be a missionary since I was about 11), and became a member. I’m a bit of a theology/philosophy of religion nerd, so I got noticed by the leadership fairly quickly. I moved up the ranks (at an unprecedentedly young age for a non-pastor’s relative) and drank pretty deeply from the Mahaney Kool-Aid, as Jim might put it. This all culminated with me being made a pastoral intern in 2006.
I agreed to one year of part-time interning. After 6 months, though, I knew I was done. I was seeing behind closed doors now, and I saw an awful lot I didn’t like. I saw manipulation and controlling of church members. I saw a CEO-like leadership style from the senior pastor, with his supposed “plurality of elders” really nothing more than yes-men. I saw what I considered to be irresponsible uses of church finances. I saw major decisions being made with zero transparency to the church body. I wasn’t ok with any of it, so I started looking for a way out.
In January of 2007, I was engaged to my lovely wife Fallon (who had started working for a pro-life organization). I told the senior pastor that I wasn’t making enough money to support a wife (which was true, they never ended up paying me despite the pastor’s promise to “do what they could”. Thank the Lord I still had my college Starbucks job). I went out and got a job teaching math at a local public school, and quietly started looking/praying for another church.
Fallon and I were married in June. Some family issues that the pastors grossly mishandled/commited spiritual abuse in over the summer caused me to expedite the church-searching process. In October we found a wonderful church and made the switch. I wrote a very complimentary email to the pastors, both thanking them for all that they had done for me, and explaining in as un-insulting terms as I could muster what my disagreements were. The two main issues I mentioned were a lack of missions and evangelism, and my problems with the church polity structure. I thougt this was the end.
Our senior pastor emailed me back and asked if Fallon and I would meet with him & his wife, to which we agreed. Big mistake. They met us in a public place, and the pastor yelled and screamed at us, and called me insulting names like “insane”. Fallon was in tears, and we were both embarassed by the public setting. We left, again thinking this was the end.
A few weeks later, I found out that a church meeting had been called about us. During this meeting, the senior pastor had decided to spread lies about me from the pulpit. He told the congregation that my reasons for leaving were fabricated and bogus, that I had lied to Fallon about my reasons for leaving and manipulated her, that she wanted nothing to do with our leaving, and that they should pray for her. I found all of this out from old friends coming to confront me, including my own brother-in-law calling me an “emotionally-abusive husband” to my face. I quickly found that I had very few friends anymore.
Fallon called many of the ladies in the church to assure them that I had not abused her in any way, that she was very happy in our marriage, and that she had agreed with all of my reasons for leaving and that she was pleased with our new church. Rather than call me and apologize, people in the church just started shunning her too.
So here we are. We have been very blessed by our new church, where the pastor has ministered to us greatly. I haven’t forgotten my desire to be a missionary. 3 weeks from yesterday we’re moving to Boston so that I can attend law school: my goal is to be an attorney/missionary with International Justice Mission and fight against slavery and sex trafficking in Africa or Asia. My beautiful wife continues in her calling to fight in the pro-life cause, working with crisis pragnancy centers here now, and hopefully in Boston soon, and who knows where in the future.
Wow, I’ve written a lot! Thanks for patiently reading all of this.
Exintern,
Wow. I’m sorry for all you and your family have gone through. Thank the Lord you had the discernment to see the errors before being employed (and paid) by SGM full time. We also were lied about upon our controversial departure, but those told about you seem especially cruel. Isn’t it ironic, with all the preaching in SGM against gossip/slander, that the slander flies quick and plentiful when the shoe is on the other foot?
I’m delighted to hear that you and your lovely wife are still pursuing the Lord and all that He has put in your heart. Some folks get derailed for a season, sometimes a very long season, after SGM abuse. God bless you in your move and as you progress toward your law degree. It is exciting to older folks like myself (I have a 22 year old daughter) to see the next generation so committed to serving Jesus.
Ryan… I’m so sorry for all that you and Fallon (and your MOM!!) went through! I have to state the obvious, though… you are in a much better place now than you would have been if you had stayed and become a full-fledged SGM pastor. Can you imagine the “fakiness” you would have had to endure? :shiver: Of course, that doesn’t negate the facts, that you were sinned against, imho, in a very cruel manner. If I hadn’t lived through similar circumstances, I would be absolutely floored by your story.
What I find pretty amazing is the incredible amount of discernment and boldness you showed in the situation. As Jim said, SGM is not better off without you (although you are better off without them!)… they could use more men with discernment, boldness, a drive for true godliness and seeking His Truth. Instead they have a bunch of “yes men”, who help further their SGM kingdom.
Jim and I will be praying for you and Fallon as you move into this new and exciting time in your lives!
PATTY!!!!
As a Mom who also had rumors and lies spread about her kids (not from the pulpit, but sr pastor and others in leadership did nothing to stop the gossip and slander, even though they were fully aware of it), I know how difficult and hurtful it can be. I’ve said to others, you can talk about me and try to hurt me all you want (well… sorta…
), but DON’T try to do the same to my kids! I’m like a “mama bear” when it comes to my kids. I think that issue (my kids) was the proverbial straw that broke the camel’s back for me. My eyes were opened wide at that point, and many unbiblical, abusive practices were revealed to me.
You have a wonderful son, who loves God and is pursuing Him… you have to be so very proud! To see him stand up to SGM leadership, to question their authoritarian, abusive “standard operating procedures”, at the risk of himself, his reputation, his future, speaks volumes regarding his character and his commitment to God and His Truth.
My hope and faith for the future generation is alive and well, due to the godly character and commitment to the Lord I see in young men like Ryan!
CD-Host,
I don’t think the mishandling of the finances was irrespnsible in a “lose your tax-exempt status” sorta way.
I’ll give you a for-instance: Several times a year, the pastor would tell us all the church was having thin times, and could really use us tithing more. Yet we somehow managed, the year I was in the office, to spend more than $40,000 on Celebration (including everyone’s registration fees and such). Actually, when I threw that figure out, the pastor’s reaction made me think I might be low-balling that figure. Anyway, it was lots and lots of dough. Far more than we had EVER spent on, oh, I dunno, Missions or Evangelism (and no, SGMers, the 10% “tithe” to SGM doesn’t count as missions. Most of what that funds are CJ’s missions to find delicious lattes in cities where he might also stumble upon a Reformed demi-god to get cozy with).
Gracie and Carole,
Thank you so much for all of your kind words. Honestly, I wish my discernment was as good as you make it sound, Carole. There were plenty of times between quitting the internship and actually leaving that I wavered, doubted my convictions, etc. When we decided to move for law school, we tried for a time to just “stick it out” until the move to not be confrontational (wow, that means we could have still had 3 weeks to go in an SGM church *shudder*).
Thank you both so much for the prayers and blessings!
ex,
The events you recounted are not surprising but still disgusting to me. I will NEVER cease to be amazed at all the crap going on in SGM. (Yes, crap!) Even though my story, and probably most others’, are pretty similar.
I pray everything will go wonderfully for you and your lovely wife (I have met her before! She is very sweet =) ) in Boston. May God continue to direct your paths, heal your wounds, and bless you more than you could ever imagine! You guys will be on my heart!
Summer, thank you so much for the very kind words! I’m curious, when did you meet my wife?
You would think that with all the stories being told about SGM experieinces, that exintern’s would tip the balance, and people would start really hearing what we’re saying!
canary,
They’re going to hear it. What they choose to do with it remains to be seen.
I spent a long time on the phone with Ryan yesterday. SGM is not better off without him-only more comfortable.
ex,
I met your wife a few years ago when she was visiting her brother (away at college) with her family. We had lunch with a group of friends.
(I’m pretty sure it was her! I’ve never met anyone with her name, and she is from the same city as the young woman I remember =) Quite a sweet, lovely woman.
Hey Summer,
Maybe you’re thinking of someone else…my Fallon doesn’t have a college-age brother. She is really, incredibly sweet and lovely though
I want to thank each of you for your supportive comments and for sharing your stories. You have each experienced heartache and I am sorry for that. We all have a Savior who loves us very much, who came to bind up broken hearts, and who ever lives to intercede for us all. My wife and I are doing well. We realize that ultimately this was God’s doing and He intended all along to set us free! We are experiencing a level of freedom, grace, and love (for Him and from Him) that would not have come about otherwise. Jim, the families that left, left at different times and each was an independent, unique situation, but with the common thread of having experienced authoritarian control. Those of us who left remain friends. We all continue to have relationships with a few families who are still attending, but there is no communication with the majority of our friends who continue there. Honestly, we are all doing well. Canary, I no longer have a copy of the e-mail (And other letters) the pastor sent as I eventually asked myself why I was saving them, and as I was tempted to share them with others, I decided to get rid of them. I remain astonished at how similar all of our stories are though. Part of the mystery is answered, I think, if you read some of their recommended books on the church, particularly Mark Dever’s. From SGM’s point of view, purging the church in the form of people leaving is a good thing. The “front door” of the church should be narrow and incoming people scrutinized carefully before becoming members; the “back door” of the church should be wide open. Dever misused the verse regarding “narrow is the way…and broad is the way to destruction…” to justify this stance. I truly think that many of the SGM pastors believe that they are being good shepherds and protecting the church by aggressively managing those who don’t agree with them. I no longer accept as scriptural SGM’s view on the “local church” and see the doctrine more as one of the many means used to exert control over the membership. Because Christ has been so good to my wife and I, we are so much closer to completely forgiving now than we were months ago, and far less bitter.
Keith,
It will get less painful over time.
I can only imagine how painful it must be for you and your family considering how much of your time and effort was poured into the church.
I will be praying for your family and your healing. God is very good and I am sure that you will look back and see His hand supporting you through this ordeal.
Keith,
The good thing is that you and your wife are not alone. That’s what helped me and my husband, knowing that others here knew what we’d gone through. So, welcome, and I know you will be a big help to those who are leaving/have left SGM, and need a safe place to come.
ex,
Ok, I don’t know how I got so confused! I have never met your wife, but I think we have some mutual acquaintances =) I was confusing her with someone else.
Keith,
Excellent post!
So, I’m taking a big step here. Here’s my draft–and I would like some feedback.
28 July 2008
Dear (Pastor),
Thank you for your letter. I appreciate your willingness to give me the time and space I requested during the last few months and your faithfulness to follow up personally. DS, DD, and I do continue to experience God’s grace and the support of Christian fellowship.
Since January, we have been first visiting, then attending, and now participating more fully in the X church. After meeting with the rector and the assistant rector–and being assured of our fit with this particular local church in terms of polity, culture, and practice, I request a letter of transfer (or at least a certificate of standing) to Ascension effective immediately. Please remove my address, email address, and phone numbers from the directory and mailing lists.
Here is the address: (deleted here)
Leaving one local church in one family of churches after 22 years – all my adult life — to join with another local church in a very different family of churches is a step of faith, one filled with both joy and trembling. Despite the many ways that I tasted God’s goodness and experienced his Kingdom at CLC, I have never signed and cannot in good conscience sign the membership covenant. Despite the brevity of my sojourn at Ascension, my study of and experience with the Anglican church in particular and the mainline liturgical church community in general convinces me that I can be a fully functioning member there. I want my yes to be YES– and it can be at X.
Be assured that I am praying for Sovereign Grace and Covenant Life Church in general and for our friends in particular, that God would be glorified and that He will lead, guide, and provide.
Your sister in Christ,
Acme –
Very good letter. Not sure if you using the how to leave article, but it sounds really good. The only thing I’d work on is tone and I would break the steps up. If you are going for a letter of transfer there is no reason to contest membership. Phrase it something like “while I have never signed the membership covenant I have attended for 22 years and would like a letter of transfer”. A request for a transfer should be positive. You found another church in line with your discussion from a few months ago, you are being fed there…. You just are closing up the paperwork.
Keep the negative stuff (“cannot in good conscience sign the membership covenant”) if/until after he asserts that this church is not of “like faith and practice”. They may not. If you are intent on leaving SGM may want you out as quickly and painlessly as possible, their “wide back door” policy. So also drop the request for a letter of standing, wait for the follow up.
In other words I’d keep it positive until the letter of disaffiliation. No reason to indicate you expect a problem, yet.
Acme,
This seems to be CD’s area of expertise. I agree with his suggestions.
Thanks! Yes, I was using the how to leave article–and I’ve made some more adjustments. I am hoping to slide out that wide open back door.
Here’s my revised version. I want to use a tone of positive strength.
Thank you for your letter. DS, DD, and I do continue to experience God’s grace and the support of Christian fellowship.
Leaving one local church in one family of churches after 22 years – all my adult life — to join with another local church in a very different family of churches is a step of faith, one filled with both joy and trembling. We have been first visiting, then attending, and now participating more fully in the X Church in Gaithersburg. I have met with the rector and the assistant rector–and am assured of our agreement with this particular local church in terms of theology, polity, and practice.
I request a letter of transfer to X effective immediately. Please remove my address, email address, and phone numbers from the Covenant Life Church directory, care group rosters, and mailing lists. Here is the address to send the transfer letter: [deleted here]
Be assured that I am praying for Sovereign Grace and for Covenant Life Church, that God would be glorified and that He will lead, guide, and provide. We will also continue in Christian fellowship—with all its “one anothering”—with our dear friends from CLC.
Sounds good! One more suggestion / correction. drop the “effectively immediately”, use something like “at your earliest convenience”. Also SGM can’t effect a transfer by themselves the receiving congregation has work they may need to do, remember we are pretending that SGM is a responsible church here interested in doing its duty. You could add something like “at your earliest connivence. Please let me know if you run into any issues in effecting this transfer, as I am anxious to assist the transfer process between congregations in anyway possible. During the transfer process or upon completion of my transfer feel free to remove my address….”
Well, I sent off the letter to the pastors (as an email–I couldn’t find an envelope). The pastor is out of town, on vacation for two weeks, but I had cc’d two other pastors as well–and then forwarded the email to the pastor’s secretary.
And then, I took a bold step–maybe–and forwarded the email to those in SGM that I can still count as a friend (13 email addresses after 22 years). I wanted them to hear from me where I was going, if they didn’t know already for one reason or another (so not CLOSE friends really except for one or two). I included the following note:
FYI, please note the last line which I’m copying and pasting right here for emphasis: We will also continue in Christian fellowship—with all its “one another-ing”—with our dear friends from CLC.
Questions? Ask me.
Thank you all for your care and support!
Now I am sick to my stomach–worried that I might hear from someone, worried that I won’t. I jump every time I hear the tone for another email–all junk mail so far.
Hey Acme!
No worries!… you have no reason to fear anyone or anything, God is with you all the way!! He has lead you to this place and He will protect you and continue to guide you.
SGM and it’s leaders are like the big, mean looking bear in the circus… intimidating until they open their mouths and you realize that all of their teeth are missing…
There is nothing anyone can say or do to you to hurt you… you’ve been there, done that! What else can they do to you? Absolutely nothing!!!
Girlfriend, you are FREE!!!
(and if you DO need someone to get your back, give me a call… LOL!)
Me too, Acme!!
I got saved when I was in high school and started attending a sweet little church full of people of all ages. I met my husband there, we were married in the church and I even worked as church secretary for awhile. Eventually my husband and I left that church to go to one with a more continuist position on spiritual gifts. When we went in to tell our pastor, there was no fear. There was no intimidation. No one yelled or accused. In fact, I wept because I did not want to hurt him. When we heard from him or his family afterwards, it was a joy.
Contrast this with acme’s feelings right now and so many others. You’ve got to ask yourself WHY this is such a common occurrence among those of us who left PDI/SGM. Man, I so understand how you are feeling, acme. Worried that they will email back (and what unpleasantness that might bring), and worried that they won’t (meaning they don’t care). We will be praying for you.
(originally posted on Aug 1-re-posted by Jim)
Greg
I just noticed your post and think we know each other. I recall around where you left CLC, I had no idea you had nearly that bad of an experience etc. when you left. Especially when I heard you say you prayed with Mahaney around when you left.
My email address can be found on my blog if you care to email me. I am glad to hear you are doing better etc.
http://www.ikdg.wordpress.com
(originally posted on Aug 1-re-posted by Jim)
Acme, I agree with Gracie, the fact that leaving SGM or anything related brings such fear and dread to us is indicative of the spiritual abuse we’ve experienced while there – I am still in the process of walking out of my SGM church and still fearful at times what others will think (or not) I can so relate as well.
Please know you are not alone..our prayers are with you. Not to cheapen or somehow diminish the very real emotions you are feeling, but this song came to my mind and I hope it encourages you – and prompts a smile! some words have been obviously changed to fit our situation as SGM survivors, but you get the idea!
(now get the beat, and sing out loud! YOU ARE FREE!!)
First I was afraid
I was petrified
Kept thinking I could never live
without you by my side
But I spent so many nights
thinking how you did me wrong
I grew strong
I learned how to carry on
and so you’re back
ol’ Sovereign Grace
to bring back the guilt and shame
with false humility on your face
I should have changed my denomination
I should have moved across the sea
If I had known for just one second
you’d be back to condemn me
Go on now go, out of my mind
leave me alone now
’cause you’re not welcome anymore
weren’t you the one who tried to hurt me with those lies
you think I’d crumble
you think I’d lay down and die
Oh no, not I
I will survive
as long as I know how to love the Lord
I know I will stay alive
I’ve got all my life to live
I’ve got all my love to give
and I’ll survive
I will survive
It took all the strength I had
not to fall apart
kept trying hard to mend
the pieces of my broken heart
and I spent oh so many nights
just feeling sorry for myself
I used to cry
Now I hold my head up high
and you see me
somebody new
I’m not that chained up little person
still idolizing you
and if you still feel like checking in on me
just expect to find me free
now I’m saving all my worship
for Someone who’s loving me
(originally posted on Aug 1-re-posted by Jim)
You go, girl! Thanks for all of the encouragement–not a single response to my emails yet.
(originally posted on Aug 1-re-posted by Jim)
Hi Steve,
Thanks for your note. Yes, the strange thing about the whole experience is that while I maintained very good relationships with some pastors such as C.J. and Gary, I had a very difficult time with other leaders and eventually had to leave due to their positions on missions, theology, and the general environment of control and lack of flexibility.
I kept the conflicts private or within a very small circle of those directly involved, so most CLCers never knew what I went through. The letdown and personal impact of those struggles was far greater than I anticipated.
Unlike many others, I am neither in the “they’re the best” nor the “their bad and dangerous” group. IMHO, the ministry continues to have good qualities and tremendous potential, but a potential that will not be reached until they humbly address some serious and wide-spread flaws. God grant all of us the courage to remove the logs from our own eyes.
BTW, I could not find your email address on your blog. How can I get in touch with you?
Greg
(originally posted on Aug 1-re-posted by Jim)
Hi, Greg,
I must confess that I keep trying to put a last name and a wife’s name to your name. I’m sure we must have met–you probably knew my estranged husband Gary. I’m picturing the folks I knew who were actively praying for missions–and I am so glad you went to serve as a tent-maker. Before CLC, I went to Urbana ’84 and hoped to go with ELIM or Wycliff sometime. I was thrilled by the stories of folks sneaking Bibles into China or into Russia.
I would agree with you about SGM: wheat and weeds growing up together–and it pleases the LORD to let them both grow for now.
(originally posted on Aug 1-re-posted by Jim)
ACME,
This sounds very familiar. Recent posts are driving me crazy because I know several Gary s and several Steves. How can I contact you.?
Greg C.
(originally posted on Aug 1-re-posted by Jim)
Greg Cxxxxxxx (maybe?) Here’s my email: Ehlersacm at aol
(originally posted on Aug 1-re-posted by Jim)
Greg
Here is my email addres: IKDGNot at Yahoo
I do hope that soon SGM wakes up to the problems that they have in their group. From what I have seen, heard and read, a lot of this controlling has been going on since their beginning but seems as if it is increasing vs. decreasing. It is a sad story on something that started out so well has moved to this state.
As Acme indicated, God for now seems to be content with weeds and wheat growing up together for now. If what I have read here and on the SGMSurvivors Blog is any where near true, then I wonder when God’s patience with this will last. That is something for God to decide.
I will post another comment on the “scorched earth” entry.
Looking forward to hearing from you.
(originally posted on Aug 1-re-posted by Jim)
Another way to look at “wheat and weeds growing up together–and it pleases the LORD to let them both grow for now.” is that a little leaven leavens the whole lump. That is SGM might be doing some good things but their sin issues including control etc. is “leavening” the whole lump.
(originally posted on Aug 2-re-posted by Jim)
acme,
i enjoyed seeing you and your kids recently!
we are still friends
and i am staying at my aunt’s house this week and she was asking about you and wondering how you are doing and hoped you are doing well. (she is worried about your neighborhood :-/ ) I’m sure she would love to hear from you
(originally posted on Aug 2-re-posted by Jim)
Greg,
Um, I’m from CLC and I’m almost positive I know who you are. I have always admired your courage and I had no idea of all that went on behind the scenes. When you left all I heard was silence. I am so sorry. I will be praying. My first name is unusual and if I said it you would know exactly who I am. Your story has really affected me so I would also like to email you. I will ask Steve240.
(originally posted on Aug 2-re-posted by Jim)
thank you, troubled! and thanks for taking such good care of my furry children (oh, and the feathery ones too).
(originally posted on Aug 2-re-posted by Jim)
I think it’s so cool that you guys are connecting! It’s so healing to talk to other people who were with us when all this “stuff” was going on. We really ARE brothers and sisters in the same family with God the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit.
(originally posted on Aug 2-re-posted by Jim)
Greg
I paused over one significant item in your comment due to reading other information.
You indicated “Finally, I caught my pastor in a lie in front of his pastor. The senior leader asked me to leave for a moment, and when I returned, they apologized sincerely. (This may have been a historic event).”
What if anything was ever done to this pastor you caught lying? I am assuming that this was an intentional lie and not something the pastor had misunderstood but was done to cover up something etc? If this was intentional, wouldn’t it be a reason for a pastor to at least step down for a season if not something more severe? Doesn’t SGM claim that they take integrity quite seriously?
(originally posted on Aug 2-re-posted by Jim)
Greg you said:
<blockquote>Finally, I caught my pastor in a lie in front of his pastor. The senior leader asked me to leave for a moment, and when I returned, they apologized sincerely. (This may have been a historic event).</blockquote>
With everything else you shared I passed over this. That was quite significant that you caught him in this. You use the word “lie.” Does that mean you feel that it was that he intentionally said something he knew wasn’t the truth or just that he was confused or just didn’t remember? I am assuming the former but want to be sure
Assuming that this was an intentional lie, what was done to the pastor caught in this lie. Did the Sr. Pastor who I believe is now the head of SGM ever do anything to discipline this pastor for lying like this? One would think that this would a reason for a pastor to at least step down for a season if he intentionally was lying if no longer be a pastor.
My guess is that this younger pastor was one of the pastors at CLC that was related to the Sr. Pastor and wouldn’t doubt if this played a role in whatever was done to the lying pastor.
I would be curious to hear what you have to say on this and what you know.
Steve
)
(Still checking my email in box
Ok-I’ve restored every comment in this thread that I could. I think I’ve got all of the stories back up.
I lost a conversation between Carole and Ryan’s (ex intern) mom, and had to re-post 15 comments that were posted on August 1 and 2. Everything else should be intact.
If you posted your story here, and I missed it, please re-post.
I’m finally going to share my story on here – for those of you who have not read my blog with the numerous emails to and from my pastors, I’ll give you the short version here what the last 3 years of my life was like. I don’t really care if this gives away my identity or location. While I still won’t name names, I will not be extra careful as before to leave out things such as time frames and hints to who and where I am. I just don’t care anymore if my SGM church knows I am posting online, nor do I care if my friends from SGM know. In fact, I know more than one of them are reading on these blogs.
I am doing this now because I don’t think I will be around online for much longer – I plan to post on my own blog as I continue to grow and heal, but the time is fast approaching for me to move on from the survivors and refuge blogs. I remember when Butterfly felt this way and said she would not be posting anymore, and at the time I thought “WHAT??” Because, I so desperately NEEDED you guys and could not imagine NOT being online “hanging out” with you. Thank you all for your encouragement, but it will be time for me to move on soon and so I will share my story, but mostly i will focus on what the Lord has taught me since leaving, and how I have managed to come this far (which is all by the grace of GOD!))
I had been going to a Southern Baptist church for three years prior to the SGM church I attended. I knew the pastor and a few people who went there, nobody actively “recruited” me, but I was at a large church and didn’t really get personal attention. Which I very much wanted since I was self-seeking and insecure. ANyway, I had lots of questions back then, about eternal security, election, false converts, evangelism, baptism of the Holy Spirit, spiritual gifts, etc. I had such a longing for the deeper things of the Lord. But it seemed nobody would or could answer my questions.
I began asking questions of the SGM pastor (who, by the way, was not officially SGM at the time, but they were in the courtship process before being adopted) He always took the time to talk to me, something that made me feel absolutely special and appreciated. Looking back, had i not been so insecure, and had I actually gotten into the Word of God and asked the Holy SPirit to lead and guide me into all truth, I would not have been as open to joining the SGM church. In retrospect, those things made me vulnerable and opened me to bondage and later idolatry.
I joined the church after attending some bible studies for 3 months. We were studing church history, and I remember thinking ‘Finally – I’m really learning! This is so much deeper than I am used to! I’m finally being FED!” Little did I know that the feedings were laced with bondage. I became dependent on the teachers in the church to feed me, and gradually read on my own less and less. I read more books by men that were suggested, and I slowly moved to the point where I could not make decisions for myself without the help, counsel and advice (not to mention “covering”) of my pastors. I faithfully attended care group every week, made meals, helped in the library with the new books, etc. Anything I was asked to do I did if I could. When I couldn’t I felt horrible, as if they would get mad at me. I was SO INSECURE. I was realling eating up all the manipulation and never knew it was manipulation. All the while becoming more in bondage.
Over time, I lost my joy, hunger for the Word, became unable to worship or pray like I used to (I used to weep every day in prayer – it slowly turned into a weeping over how wicked I was, but never of His goodness to me) I became judgmental of women who worked outside the home, women who didn’t homeschool, women who used birth control, people who listened to secual music or watched TV or played vidoe games, I judged women who were not content being single (I was single and faked I was content) I judged everyone over everything. It was really tiring being “god”.
Finally, after a series of events in my personal life, the Lord began to show me my idolatry and dependency on the church. I knew nothing of SGM problems and had not connected it to SGM at all. I figured the problem was just me (which, in part, it was – I certainly had sinned but I had no idea why I was having such a hard time breaking free from the bondage and idolatry.)
From December 2007 until April of 2008 I tried to break free from the idolatry. I confessed it to others, spoke less, prayed more, tried to pratice my spiritual disciplines more, I was desperate and confused, depressed, and frustrated. I prayed that the Lord would reveal what the problem was – to bring it to light. Two days later I found the SGMSurvivors website. After that, I never looked back. I never went back to the church, and only explained (vaguely) to two close friends (who I know refer to as Sally and Mary on my blog) that I was leaving because I had been convicted of idolatry of the church.
I emailed my pastors (all of which are on my blog) and after about 2 months of them trying to get me to come back, they gave up on me. I have not heard from them since early June. One accused me of being a mystic (because I wanted to hear and follow the voice of God and have an intimate relationship with him again) and a fanatic. It was during this time the Lord brought back to my memory several things that happened over the last three years that I now know were a result of the spiritual abuse, shepherding, manipulation and control, etc.
So, I visited a few churches after leaving, only to find I really have been abused and needed time to heal. I didn’t trust ANYONE at any of the churches I visited. I did reconcile with my old pastor but the Lord did not lead me to attend that church, but He did give me a glimpse that forgiveness and love are possible after being hurt. I am praying one day I can see my SGM church that way.
I have continued to stay in contact with some of the SGM friends, but most have shunned me. Those that still talk to me talk to each other I found out, compared notes, and think I am falling away. The need to “prove them wrong” was becoming an obsession for a while. Now I am being more real with my feelings – lately i have been very depressed and “bored” spiritually. There was a time I would not share that because I was afraid the SGM people would say “That’s because you are in sin and you are out of fellowship from the local church and it’s covering!”
Now I just don’t care. I love the Lord. I want to see others set free. And I want to continue moving towards freedom myself. But, I can’t keep reading of the abuses day in and day out on these blogs, in the beginning, it was actually comforting (not to be morbid) because I saw that I wasn’t crazy or imagining things. But after a while, I noticed that all the reports of spiritual abuse, trying to figure things out, all contributed to my anger, resentment, and bitterness. It is because of this I can’t be online anymore reading everything. It is like salt in the wounds some days. I know nobody here intends that, but a little salt helps to heal, while too much just stings. And my wounds have been stinging for a while. It’s time to remove myself from the salt and get some of that “balm” the Bible talks about!
I love all you dearly – and I hope you stay in touch via email. My email address is concerned_3AThotmailDOTcom if anyone wants to email. I’d love to stay in touch as well…I will pop in from time to time perhaps, but I will be praying for all of you and trust the Lord will continue to reveal, restore, and redeem the loves that have been affected by SGM over the years. Blessed be His Name!
Concerned,
Thank you for posting your story! I’m sorry that it somehow got stuck in our spam filter for 2 hours.
I think everyone needs to read what you’ve said here. Many of us who had “problems” with SGM can relate to what went on in your heart. SGM was an idol in my heart, and many times, I allowed their leaders to be “mediators” in my life-I just didn’t know it!
Moving away from the blogs can be a very good thing
Concerned,
Thank you for sharing. I completely understand the need to move on. I’m so glad you have found what you needed just at the right time on the blogs. God is good.
Blessings to you!
I have grown up in a Sovereign Grace church. Now that I’m in my twenties, I think my eyes are being opened. I have always tended to be legalistic, thinking I have to follow a set of rules in order to be a real Christian. I’ve been really closed minded to other churches, thinking that my sgm church was the best church there was out there. When I encountered other Christians, I thought that I was somehow better than they were. Wow.. how ridiculous this sounds to me now! How arrogant. I cannot believe how my heart can deceive me.
Anyway, my eyes are slowly being opened. I still can fall into my old tendencies and I am regularly reminding myself of God’s grace upon myself and others. My church is not the best church ever. In fact, another church may be better for me (shock!!).
One thing in particular I’ve become aware of lately is the control over people. Some of my friends are very controlling and for awhile I thought they were right in whatever they said because I thought “they are godlier than I am”. And when I confront them on things they get really particular about specifics and claim they don’t know what I’m talking about and they’ve never done such a thing (when in fact I can remember specific circumstances when they have). Somehow they manage to turn the conversation around to make me think that I am totally wrong, or to something I have done wrong, or to make me feel stupid for not being able to remember specifics (because I get so scatterbrained while talking to them that I get all turned around and forget everything I’ve thought of telling them).
Then I looked at the families and parents of my friends — and they are really controlling too! Some parents don’t let their grown adult daughters leave the house without permission. Or do anything without their permission for that matter. If we do go out and do something, there has to be a guy present to protect us. So what about girl time outside of the house?! I’m a free spirit and sitting at the house just leaves me bored. How are the girls under these parents supposed to learn how to live life if they aren’t allowed? How will they act when they get out in the world? How will they know how to do anything? For awhile I wondered why I liked hanging out with a few different friends (who are also free spirits and whose parents are definitely not controlling) more than some of my closer friends and I realized it was because of what they were “allowed” to do… Life was much more fun with them!
So here I am now, continuing to realize more everyday, some things making more sense as I read this blog and sgmsurvivors. I continue to attend my SGM church, but have begun to wonder and pray if I am supposed to stay there. I really have no idea where to go from there. I don’t know what other churches are in my area, or if they are any good. The thing is, I really do love my friends (please don’t get me wrong from what I said earlier, I’m really just concerned for them, and don’t like how their parents treat them and how it has rubbed off on them, therefore making it how they treat me and others). So, I’m not totally ready to leave my friends that I’ve had for so many years, and I’m not totally sure I’m strong enough to as I’m trying to figure myself out.
I’m feeling very lost and confused.
eponine,
I’m so glad you found Jim and Carole’s blog. Perhaps the feelings of being lost and confused is the Lord’s way of getting your attention. Maybe He is bringing new direction into your life. Maybe seeking the Lord more on your own would be a good thing. He truly can speak to your heart. He can show you what to do.
In the meantime, we are all hear to listen to you and pray. I’m sending hugs [[[[[[[[eponine]]]]]]]]. You aren’t alone!
Concerned,
You are a brave woman. Look how far you’ve come! I’m glad you are strong enough to move on. We will miss you here, but moving on is a good thing when you’re ready. Don’t loose my email address!
Acme –
All this traffic reminded me of your situation. Is the receiving pastor willing to grant membership without a letter of transfer (i.e. now)? Right now SGM is out of compliance they have a positive obligation to respond (not necessarily to grant) that they are failing to fulfill. That’s good, because it is going to invalidate any later action. So if you can close now is a good time to do it, and then we can do a very simple disaffiliation letter informing them that their failure to assist in the transfer has forced an out of process transfer (we’ll phrase a little nicer)…..
What is wonderful there is that in discussing this issue they are going to have to mention that you requested transfer and they didn’t bother to say anything. So if they go after you later with all sorts of slander about you having fled discipline they are going to be committing tortable acts (i.e. you can sue and win if you want).
I mean them writing the letter would be better but not responding still isn’t bad assuming the recievng paster is ready to act. So it comes down to that.
Eponine,
What you share particularly saddens me because these principles are being taught to and regurgitated by the next generation. It can be no accident that these attitudes have continued for decades and the second generationers are being affected by them.
But like my friend canary, let me say, You are not alone! We will be praying for you that the Lord will keep you through this whole process. God’s Grace is shocking and wonderful. We will pray that you receive a life-changing measure of it! Blessings!
BTW, is your name Eponine a Les Miserables reference?
CD-Host
You might have missed my PS in another thread, but I did get a response from the pastor. Here’s the response:
“Thanks for getting back to me. I am grateful to God that you and your family are doing well and have found a home there at the Church of the Ascension.
There is no formal policy for us to effectively transfer you from CLC to there. We simply support your choice to leave and release you with our blessing and prayer that God would continue to pour out His grace to you in the Gospel. Should your new church have some formal process of making you a member in which they would want to contact us (similar to how we might contact a former church for somebody seeking to be a member here), we would be happy to support that.
So we release you at your request from membership here and pray the best for you and your family in the months and years to come.”
I was surprised that not ONE of my THIRTEEN friends from CLC responded at all–by email or face-to-face–to the email I sent to them, forwarding my letter and assuring them that I still very much wanted to continue “one-anothering” with them. I had hoped for even one response–hopefully saying, “of course, we will, Silly” and not “we hope to keep in touch, but really we’re so busy in our church that we really don’t have time/energy/resources to keep up with you.”
Was it too dramatic/too self-pitying/too patently obvious or something for a response?
No Acme, it wasn’t.
I’m sorry. {{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{ }}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}
Acme-it’s not you, it’s just what they do.
Acme, I’ve learned since leaving SGM and rethinking “all things church” that the bottom line is this: Jesus really is all we need. People during the Middle Ages didn’t even have Bibles and the church was totally corrupt, yet the faith of the saints prevailed. Why? Because faith is personal, and when you have it, you thrive. Even if you don’t have all the answers, your knowledge is lacking or incomplete, faith is still possible!! Saving faith is possible!
I’m not discounting the blessings of corporate worship or the Body, or the need for the Word of God, simply referring to a very dark time in the history of the church – one where you’d think the gospel would pretty much be wiped out along with Christianity. but what I am saying is that when we have placed our hopes, dreams, security, etc in the CHURCH when things don’t go as we had hoped, then we are disappointed. So what you are feeling is typical of most Christians – everything we are exposed to and taught as American evangelicals, all our needs, etc are to be found in the Church supposedly – but when the church abuses you, it really is unsettling. So where do oyu turn when the church has let you down?
My advice to you is to run as fast as you can to the feet of JESUS. Don’t spend too much time asking the “why” questions – the answers will come in time. If you spend too much time focusing on getting the answers, you will be distracted from what is most needed right now, and that is personal time with Jesus to build a personal faith. The enemy of our souls will work hard to get us to think about ANYTHING other than those things that will ultimately free us and give us the abundant life Christ came to give us.
So, seek Him. Don’t get distracted trying to figure it all out. In child-like faith, ask the questions you have TO THE LORD and let the answers come to you. Don’t go looking for them all…you’re likely to get sidetracked. And when you are coming out of spiritual abuse like we are, it is critical to remain focused and not get distracted in our vulnerability.
I’ll be praying for you….
Thank you, Concerned. He is all that I need–and honestly, I’m too busy as a single mom and a teacher about to start the new school year to dwell on this too much.
I’ve been reflecting on the life of David and the Psalms. The Lord is near us even when we sin and even when we are sinned against. When trouble and persecution come or when we get distracted by the riches and machinations of the world, He is an ever present help.
John Piper writes about sustaining grace
“Not grace to bar what is not bliss
(oops I forgot this part) but this
the grace that orders our trouble and pain
and then in the darkness is there to sustain”
“Orders” meaning puts boundaries and limitations on – when, where, to what extent.
Acme and Concerned,
Good words, both of you. Thumbs up!
eponine,
What Gracie said about second generation SGMers is so true. You are coming to question what you’ve been taught, by people you’ve trusted since you were little. If the Lord is showing you that there is more to your life with Him than what you’ve been taught, then embrace it. Don’t fear. He is so gentle when He leads us, especially when we are confused. You don’t have to leave where you are at right now. You just need to hear Jesus as He gently speaks and guides.
Hebrews is a great place to start reading. It explains so much about what faith really is. I found that, while my leaders were teaching me about the sins of not submitting, not speaking enough about my sins, not having my home as perfect as they desired, my true sin was unbelief. Hebrew speaks of this in great detail. Concerned struggled with idolatry of leadership. I had that, as well. I needed to see my true Lord with eyes of faith in a way I was never taught to by the churches I attended. Realize that, even though we are meeting you on the internet, our hearts feel for you in a strong way. You truly are not alone.
To everyone else:
I must apologize for something. I feel that, lately, I have allowed myself to become cynical. It is one thing to feel strongly for people who have or are struggling with authoritarian church abuse. It is another to see so much of it that you just want to throw your hands in the air and give up on the church all together. I have been feeling this way for a little while. I see that this is entirely the wrong direction to take. Right now I ask the Lord’s forgiveness. I choose to turn into the direction that He walks – I will let love be my guide. Please, forgive me if my cynicism has shown through on this blog at any time.
I love the Lord and His people. I hear His heart crying, “Let My people go!” He hates injustice, but He continues to move in love. He is merciful. He is forgiving. If I do not walk like the Lord does in these things, then I am of no help to this blog or the people who come here for guidance, and I should get off.
Jim and Carole, I know you began this blog to right a very great wrong. I believe your hearts are still in that place. I hope that your goals are achieved, because they will only help the church.
When people like eponine come on, I see another direction this blog could take, along with your reasons for beginning it. We can offer solutions to how to survive the terrible experiences that so many of us have had. We don’t just have to talk about what happened to us. We can talk about how we came through, to find our freedom in Christ. We can offer verses and books and tapes and teachers that helped us find our place in Christ. We can truly be the heart and hands of Jesus as we serve those who come here.
As I was telling my husband of my change of heart, he directed me to this verse in Phillipians 2:
“Let each of you esteem and look upon and be concerned for not merely his own interests, but also each for the interests of others. Let this same attitude and purpose and humble mind be in you which was in Christ Jesus: [Let Him be your example in humility:] Who, although being essentially one with God and in the form of God [possessing the fullness of the attribues which make God God], did not think this equality with God was a thing to be eagerly grasped or retained. But stripped Himself of all priviledges and rightful dignity, so as to assume the guise of a servant (slave), in that He became like men and was born a human being. And after He had appeared in human form, He abased and humbled Himself [still further] and carried His obedience to the extreme of death, even the death of the cross!” Amplified version
I do not in anyway put this heart of cynicism on anyone else here! I see it only in myself, and truly repent. I thank the Holy Spirit who is perfectly able to show me my sin, and is merciful in dealing with me. To all of you, I am truly sorry.
To eponine: the love and grace of our Living God will keep you.
To Concerned: THANK YOU!
To Jim and Carole: You both are heroes in my eyes. Thanks again for starting SGMrefuge.
canary,
Your presence makes this a better place.
Aw shucks, this Canary has a big tear in her wittle eye.
Thanks, Jim.
Thank you for your prayers and thoughts for me. I really appreciate it. I think this is going to be a long process for me while I decide who I really am in Christ and what I really believe and where I believe God wants me to be. I want to start afresh but part of me is afraid because I’ve been at the same place my whole life. Stepping into a church of people I don’t know sounds so scary to me! lol Especially a smaller church where they probably all know each other and I’m the new person.
Gracie,
Yes Les Miserables is one of my favorite books/musicals!
eponine,
Welcome!
I have no advice, not knowing your situation.
I am confident that you’ll be ok.
God knows the plans He has for you-and they are good!
eponine,
Are you of the age to make your own decisions? Are your parents still involved in SGM?
Take your time. Wait on the Lord. He will lead you. We all understand your fears, having experienced them ourselves. Take time to hear from the Lord before you take action. He speaks through His word, in your heart, through other people, and some ways you might least expect. I’m praying for you!
canary,
Yes I am old enough to make my own decisions and my parents are still involved in sgm although I believe they would be fine with me leaving as long as I was sure it was God’s will.
eponine – take your time, like Canary said. Get in the Word. Don’t feel the need to rush things. A book I have been reading that has been very helpful is called “The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse” by David Johnson and Jeff VanVonderen.
By the time I picked up this book, three months after leaving my SGM church, I had realized most of the signs of spiritual abuse from these blogs. But this book was amazing in that it really points to Christ, Scripture, and gets you on the fast track to healing- by the way, the fast track is simply hanging out with Jesus!
It doesn’t take long to identify whether or not or how you have been abused. What takes time is thinking through things like: what made me susceptible (if anything), how can I prevent this in the future, what has happened to my faith since this happend, is it stronger or am I having a crisis of faith now that I no longer know how to trust the church?
Some of the chapters are:
Spiritual Abuse is not new, The Pre-Abuse Set-up, Identifying the Abusive System, when you cannot leave, Revictimizing victoms, image is everything, how to escape a spiritual trap, renewing the mind, and recovering Right Focus.
I think one of the best pieces of advice I have received time and again from Canary was to take things slow and allow myself to live under grace, and not the law. When you come out of a legalistic, controlling and authoritarian church, this is VERY hard to too. I literally have to remind myself time and again – give grace (to myself, to my son, to others) and I mean Biblical grace, not the grace as defined (or redefined rather) by SGM. This grace doesn’t come in the context of our wicked hearts, but this grace is understood when we receive the holiness and goodness of GOD’S HEART. Always focus on HIM, not yourself. I always thought that focusing on myself was OK as long as I was thinking of my sin and wicekd heart, but this is so damaging! That is not living under grace. And we are under grace now, Jesus has set us free!!
I hope and pray your time on this blog will help transition your heart to healing, and you will find that blessed joy that comes from finding your identity is indeed IN CHRIST.
Cd-Host,
I really like your idea. I was already planning on trying out other churches but I wasn’t quite sure to start and I think you gave me an idea on how to start! Thanks!
Concerned,
Thanks for the book advice. I’ll have to look into that. I know in some ways I have been abused through manipulation by friends and adults, but I’m just realizing this to a small extent and I don’t think I fully understand the depth of this problem. I feel so burdened down by how I am not as godly as those other people who have hours of quiet time every day and never miss it. I can’t force myself to have something I don’t desire right now, especially as frequently as the church tells me I should. Just wondering, do other churches push quiet times as much as mine does?? We have accountability just for how many we had that week, and what we studied. I want to have time with God, i really do, but I feel so weighed down by the burden that I HAVE to have it just to report back to my friends that I find no joy in it. God is so distant, I feel like I don’t even know him anymore. I’ve knocked and the door has not been opened to me and asked and have not received his reminder that he is near me. I’m almost at the point of giving up. I’m not sure what to do!
Eponine,
What you’re describing about your quiet time is a perfect description of legalism – you’re being coerced into performing, in order to get someone’s approval for “correct” performance. If your grandmother said she loved and approved of you, only when you called her every week, you’d feel the same way: this is manipulative and being forced upon me.
I heard one teacher say that we should realize that God is speaking to us all the time in various ways, and that it’s easier to reply than we might think. Then the formal “quiet time” becomes icing on the cake, not the cake itself. You’re probably already thinking about God several times a day – you can use those situations, even if they’re brief, to worship him and talk with him. He’s not waiting for a ceremony!
It might also help to just read one of the gospels slowly , asking God to let you hear him speaking to you, through the gospel. In the Old Testament, reading slowly through Isaiah chs. 40 – 66 will give you lots of pictures of God as a loving, forgiving God who wants to bless you. Reading the Bible slowly, meditating on it like you’re “eating” it, can really bless your spirit and give God’s Spirit lots of avenues to start *real* conversations with you.
You’ve probably heard people talking about journaling. For years, I found God speaking to me repeatedly, as I would just write to myself about my life. He’d show me things I didn’t know about myself, life, others, him. And it was totally non-threatening, since I wrote whenever I felt like it. This might help you now.
The key in all of this is friendship, not performance. God will be happy to talk with you every day, but he’s not angry with you if he doesn’t. His blessings will still flow to you no matter what. The cool thing about talking with him every day is that over time, he begins to share more of his heart with you – revealing more life-giving truth from the Bible and in your talks with him. It becomes something to look forward to, not dread.
I’ve taken a lot of comfort over the years in looking at the prophecy that God “forced” out of Baalam. An enemy of the Israelites hired Balaam to curse God’s people in the wilderness, but God instead gave Balaam three prophetic blessings that he spoke over them. What God showed me was that these prophetic statements revealed the love God had for his people, even though they were constantly disobeying and grumbling against him in the desert! When given an opportunity to use Balaam as a prophet, God caused him to speak three blessings over them! Surely he feels the same way toward us today – we are his sons and daughters, hidden in Jesus Christ and made wonderful by him.
Here’s the last prophetic word Balaam spoke over Israel, in Numbers 24. I hope you find it encouraging.
“The oracle of Balaam son of Beor,
the oracle of one whose eye sees clearly,
4 the oracle of one who hears the words of God,
who sees a vision from the Almighty,
who falls prostrate, and whose eyes are opened:
5 “How beautiful are your tents, O Jacob,
your dwelling places, O Israel!
6 “Like valleys they spread out,
like gardens beside a river,
like aloes planted by the LORD,
like cedars beside the waters.
7 Water will flow from their buckets;
their seed will have abundant water.
“Their king will be greater than Agag;
their kingdom will be exalted.
8 “God brought them out of Egypt;
they have the strength of a wild ox.
They devour hostile nations
and break their bones in pieces;
with their arrows they pierce them.
9 Like a lion they crouch and lie down,
like a lioness—who dares to rouse them?
“May those who bless you be blessed
and those who curse you be cursed!”
[end]
God also showed me that he brings each one of his people “out of Egypt” – out of bondage and slavery, and points us toward the promised land of the Kingdom of God. On the way, he takes each one of us through the desert, where he reveals himself and reveals to us our own heart attitudes. His goal is to show that he is the answer to all our needs, and that we can trust him just as the Israelites should have trusted him.
God wants to bring you out of the bondage of legalism, and into the liberty you’ve been given in Jesus Christ. Right now you’re on the journey of discovering that freedom.
keepinstep,
Wow thanks so much for that advice and for the scripture, it was so helpful and encouraging!
Thinking about it as the icing on the cake is a great analogy as well.
Thanks!
kis – wonderful advice. I also find journaling so helpful as a means to settle my heart and hear from the LORD.
For a season, in a CG I attended, the CGL told his wife not feed their kids breakfast until she had had a quiet time, because he wanted to help us all see that we must make God a priority–and making him a priority meant time with him in the morning before anything else. This season was my worst experience in CG I have ever had.
I used to beat myself up because I did not find it absolute joy to have a quiet time, to spend hours worshipping, to spend hours listening to ever longer sermons, to go to huge meeTings and conferences, that my picture of heaven did not look ANYTHING like church as I experienced it at CLC.
I am so grateful that Jesus loves me, just the way I am.
Eponine,
I wish you well and will be praying for you as you go on this journey into embracing your autonomy and the freewill that is your birthright.
CD- Host, I have to strongly disagree with your advice to Ep. I know you are not a Christian, (according to your blogger profile) so I don’t really expect you to be able to give (or understand) Biblical advice. But your advice was really unbiblical and I can’t just act like it want’ said- I say this in love for both you and Ep, who really needs the guidance of God’s Word right now – and nothing else. We’ve all listened to others for too long, including well-meaning people. We all need to go back to the Word to lead and guide us, and be careful not to stray from it or turn to the right or to the left.
Now, perhaps you think I am being too hard on you – and if so, and you believe your advice was Biblical, I would like to hear your justification. Otherwise, there is nothing pointing her to Christ in what you said. Above all else, that is what allows us to heal from spiritual abuse. Otherwise we are in danger peddling worldly psycho-babble, and our personal agendas on this blog.
I think it only fair to share your personal background with the people on this blog like Epi you are giving counsel to – there may be an unspoken expectation from some on the site that all posters have experienced SGM abuse or some sort of abuse at some point, and certainly an expectation that people are Christians. (everyone, if I am wrong here please corerct me, but that was my assumption when I first came on this site) I think you need to clarify your spiritual background for the record (or perhaps I just did) I’m not talking about doctirne here, just whether or not you claim to be a follower of Jesus Christ or not, and a believer in His Word. I didn’t see this on your blog.
this is a place where vulnerable and hurting people come for encouragement, support, prayer, and Biblical counsel. I think Jim and Carole would agree, but if I’ve overstepped some boundaries somewhere here by pointing out the need for CD-Hosts’ counsel (and everyone else’s for that matter) to be Biblical, please feel free to correct me Jim.
I cannot in good conscience before God and those on this blog stand by and see vulnerable people who were spiritually abused being given worldy advice. I just can’t.
CD-Host, OK, please do clarify, because I just went back to read your profile and you have changed it since I last read it. It used to read that you were not a Christian. Has this changed? I think you know the time I am referring to that I visited your blog and at that time I read your profile. I also left a comment at that time. Thanks for clarifying.
Concerned, I like and respect you, but I don’t completely agree.
She needs to get into the Word, but she needs the support of other people as well.
Additionally, someone that has grown up in a place like SGM will likely find themselves reading scripture with the spin that they grew up believing was the correct interpretation.
Finding some solid church communities and test driving them over a course of time may be therapeutic to her.
Ep, you said:
“I feel so burdened down by how I am not as godly as those other people who have hours of quiet time every day and never miss it. I can’t force myself to have something I don’t desire right now, especially as frequently as the church tells me I should. Just wondering, do other churches push quiet times as much as mine does??”
I agree with KIS, this is a result of the legalism you’ve been under. Spending time in the presence of GOd should be a joy, but when you are in bondage you cannot worship God. I don’t think church-hopping is what you need right now. It isn’t about what things in church are pleasing to you – it is about getting in the presence of God and allowing HIM to speak to your heart, spirit, and soul. He speaks peace to you, it is HIm you must be with. Switching churches is not the solution.
We will never be satisfied when we attempt to control our relationship with God via religion. And it is likely that you, like me and many others, are realizing the lack of personal faith you may have because church was the illusion that made you think you had faith – because oyu went to church, tithed, etc you were faithful. But nothing satisfies the soul, and legalism sucks the very life out of you and quenches the Holy Spirit.
Isaih is a wonderful book on captivity, bondage, idolatry, and repentance. But don’t worry! It is ALL in the context of God’s unending mercy, grace, loving kindess, and holiness. I’ve found much peace in reading through it. Isaiah 61 is a wonderful place to begin. Let it be a balm to your wounds. Juse seek Jesus. Don’t read the Word because someone told you to or out of a sense of obligation or because you think you should, read HIs Word because you are desperate for Him. And if you are not desperate for Him, ask Him to make you so. But allow yourself some grace right now.
I remember thinking after leaving my church that while I was totally confused and could not feel the presence of God anymore like I used to before the SGM church. I had slowly become aware of my sin and where I went wrong, and then I identified the sin of others, and then somehow, I began to feel a release.
After I gave up trying to find a replacement idol (i.e. another church) I really began to sense His presence. But even looking for another church was a distraction from the work the Lord wanted to do in my heart. There is plenty of time for another church at some point, don’t feel pressured to find one right now. If you are not even hungry to be in His Word at this point, you have no business going to church to get fed. Please don’t get me wrong, I am not looking down on your because you don’t have a ahunger, I didn’t either and some days I still don’t! It is normal when you have been so legalistic to lose your appetite for His Word. But your number one priority right now should be to regain your hunger for Him. And even if you don’t feel it, pray that you will. Just take one day at a time.
Not be grounded in the Word opens you up to all sorts of false teachings. It’s ok to take some time to get to know Jesus again. All He wants is to bless you and heal you, and set you free. And that is my prayer for you – that you won’t settle for anything less than Jesus Christ and HIS righteousness!! Have hope…He is faithful to redeem us.
I also read that CD was not a Christian on his site or on “uncensored”. I’d be glad to hear that has changed.
DB… I don’t agree. If you are not grounded in the Word you should not be test driving anything. That is how we are deceived further – the whole itching ears thing. The Holy Spirit leads us into all truth, and it is under HIs guidance our minds are transformed, even our misunderstanding of how to even read the Word. Don’t you think God would reveal truth to us if we seek Him in His Word? How could attending a church to heal be safer than simply seeking God Himself through His Word?
And if we, as victims of legalism, the SGM system, whatever, are likely to read scripture with a spin on it as you say, how much MORE will we HEAR things with a spin on it while attending other churches?? THat is opening ourselves up to false teaching, as I said. If we can’t (or are not willing) to sit at the feet of Jesus asking Him to teach us by the Holy Spirit, then we have no business going to anyone else asking THEM to teach us.
Kali, I don’t know that the situation has changed, or if just the profile has. Until I hear back from him I will leave on commenting further on his background.
let me quickly add that the support of others is indeed important, but I am saying that this doesn’t have to come through a traditional church-setting. Meaning the building, programs, services, etc. If you have friends who are believers, then spend time with them and have some accountability, but we need to think outside the box we’ve been put in that the “church” is the building and the programs. You can follow Paul’s suggestion to not forsake the assembling of yourselves, and never step foot in a church building. People do it all the time.
Not to say this situation would be permanent, but for someone who has not rightly viewed church authority, whose personal relationship is damamged by legalism and abuse, the last thing they need is more “church” – they do need more Jesus.
Hey Eponine! On a lighter note and a slight change of subject, I also (and my grown daughters) LOVE Les Miserables. I hope that your name selection has more to do with the fact that she sings some of the most moving music in the show and not from her life circumstances!
Praying for you, sweetie.
Concerned,
I applaud your boldness. I, too, would like to know if CD Host is a believer in Jesus Christ.
DB,
I see the excellent point you are making. The thing is, when you are so engorged with legalistic teaching (like eponine’s accountability group requiring (competing?) regular “quiet times”), fear becomes your constant companion. You become afraid of the consequences of not meeting SGM expectations (notice I didn’t say “God’s”). There are many voices telling you what to do, almost silencing the still, quiet voice of the Lord. If eponine does not give the Lord time to work through this, he/she will not recognize true/false doctrine in other churches, and might even fall into the same type of authoritarian clutches, simply because it is familiar, and familiar is safe. I guess there has to be a balance.
The most important thing to recognize is that we have freedom in Christ, that His Spirit teaches us all differently, and that there is no rush for eponine to leave where he/she is at to find a new church. He/she needs to hear the Lord speak, then move forward in faith. This might take time.
Eponine,
Do whatever you do by faith. That is, the Lord has spoken and you know it, and you move forward in trust. There is good in all the advice you’ve been given by DB, Concerned, Keepinstep, etc., but you are use to being told which way to go by people. Take what we say and test it before the Lord. As someone said above, the Lord will speak in many different ways, times, and places. Test it by the word of God, of course, but the Lord doesn’t make it difficult. “My sheep know my voice.” We just have to silence the other voices crowding it out (these voices will be the ones shouting at you to conform, to obey, to please others, to be afraid of what will happen if you drop the balls SGM has you spinning). This might mean withdrawing a little from activities that cause you to feel pressured to preform. At the same time, you will be testing the reactions of your leadership based on how they deal with a little less of your meeting attendance. Will they respond gracefully or forcefully?
As you wait on the Lord, there are suggestions here that everyone can offer on what they did/read to find truth. I depended highly on a wonderful man who lived in the late 19th century, Andrew Murray. He was truly a father of the faith. He teaches about what it means to wait on the Lord, and to surrender all to Him.
Again, though we are speaking through the interenet, everyone here wants only to support you. We would agree that our advice is only that: advice. The word of the Lord to you is of vital importance. We can share our solutions, but God will show you which ones will work for you alone. He sees you as an individual. He knows exactly what you need. The Lord bless you mightily as you seek Him!
An after thought: it might help to find someone who is balanced by grace who you trust completely to help you walk through all this. This will be a person who won’t tell you what to do, but will help you work through your thoughts and feelings to find out what God wants.
One more thing: Eponine, Concerned has only been out of SGM for three or four months. Her experience is happening NOW, which means that it is currently on-going. She has great passion for the Lord. You might be able to relate to her the most. Just a thought. Praying for you!
CD-Host,
I’m sorry. I’ve deleted your “visit a gay friendly church”, “you might have a slander case”, and “visit a unitarian church” posts.
None of this advice is Biblical. I know that we have a different view of Scripture, but as the host here, I feel a responsibility to those who post in this tread in particular.
I thought that we had an understanding after our phone conversation.
You have an understanding of Scripture. Please don’t give advice here that contradicts what Scripture teaches.
I think that your ideas in crafting a good resignation letter can be helpful, so those posts remain.
I hope you understand.
Everyone here knows that I’m not in the habit of deleting comments, and I leave many comments up that i personally disagree with.
There does need to be a line that can’t be crossed, and the posts I deleted crossed that line.
We can jump on another thread and have a theological debate (although I may not participate for long), but this thread is different than all other threads.
peace,
Jim
Canary,
You are correct Concerned is a much more recent SGM refugee and Eponine would likely be better able to relate to her.
Just remember that is isn’t healthy or Biblical to go forever without being part of a church. I came pretty close to turning my back on church in general and I know how tempting it is to just turn inward because of the pain.
“Do whatever you do by faith. That is, the Lord has spoken and you know it, and you move forward in trust. [Y]ou are used to being told which way to go by people. Take what we say and test it before the Lord. [T]he Lord will speak in many different ways, times, and places. Test it by the word of God, of course, but the Lord doesn’t make it difficult. “My sheep know my voice.” We just have to silence the other voices crowding it out >snip<
As you wait on the Lord, there are suggestions here that everyone can offer on what they did/read to find truth. >snip<
Again, though we are speaking through the internet, everyone here wants only to support you. We would agree that our advice is only that: advice. The word of the Lord to you is of vital importance. We can share our solutions, but God will show you which ones will work for you alone. He sees you as an individual. He knows exactly what you need. The Lord bless you mightily as you seek Him!”
This is so good, Canary, and something that I have to do more of!!
Howdy Ellie! Hope your week is going well!
DB,
The thing is, you are jumping to conclusions. No one is trying to say anything about ditching “church” forever. Eponine needs time, that’s all. Time and the freedom from legalism to make a good choice as to where she can fellowship in spirit and truth. I think that there are many ways to meet with the body of Christ and be encouraged in the faith without the rules of when and how.
I do respect your opinion. I think we are on more of the same page than we think. Eponine and people like her need to KNOW what their freedom in Christ is. To go from one church to another won’t necessarily help that. There is so much authoritarianism out there in the American church. That’s one reason why I pointed her to Concerned, who is being wise enough to step carefully, humble enough to seek guidance from those she trusts, and growing in passion for the Lord. Man, she’s on fire!
Peace?
DB, I have to admit, as a recent refugee, I am prone to swing to the other extreme after leaving an authoritarian church – that is, to completely want to run in the opposite direction of all things church-related. I don’t trust the church, I’ll be honest (at least not on most days) but I do believe the Word of God and want to obey it. The Word of God says there are blessings to being involved in fellowship with other believers. And that I am to love the Beloved of God, serve them, and encourage them. Now, how extensive is the accountability, protection, etc I’m not so sure of anymore, because those things were the areas I was abused in. I am gun-shy if you will. But I also am aware that I need time, and jumping into another church situation for the wrong reasons is spiritually dangerous (some of my reasons were because I was feeling guilty for not going anywhere, I was afraid I would fall away, I was afraid of what others would think, I wanted some answers to what had just happened to me and wanted someone to “comfort” me and make me feel spiritually safe again.)
So clearly if I had jumped into another church only a month or two after leaving SGM it would have proven disastrous. I am not writing off church forever, and certainly not everyone should follow the same path I am, (because He leads us differently) but I am learning that my legalistic viewpoint ran deeper than I thought originally. And it didn’t show it’s ugly head until it came time to “find a new church”. I visited several different churches in my area, of various denominations. One was preaching prosperity gospel, one was heavily reformed, one was more charismatic, one was a calvary chapel. I saw in each of these a temptation I was not able to withstand (yet). For example, after having spent 3 years under the teaching of indwelling sin and being reminded of how wicked I was, a little prosperity gospel feels good to be honest. But is it the whole truth? I was (and am still working on) realizing my identity IN CHRIST. I was learning how to love being in His Word, spending time with Him, learning to hear His voice again. Like canary said, throwing a bunch of new voices in the mix too soon would have been dangerous for me, and MIGHT be for Ep as well, but Lord will reveal that to her if that is the case.
So yes I am speaking from my personal experience, I can’t help but share what the Lord has taught me. I want others to find freedom and to keep pressing on, and find the joy of the Lord again. but I also echo what canary said, we all need to follow the voice of the Lord as revealed through His Word and in prayer. He is looking at our hearts. If our heart is to know Him more fully and in truth, He will be faithful to lead us. So at this time, I am not attending any church, and will wait on the Lord to lead me in that area too. I miss the familiarity and comfort of church, I have to admit. But this is an area He is working in me – I had such deep idolatry and dependence on the church. And it makes sense to me now that He would not have me learning to hear His voice again in the middle of a church right now.
Eponine, I am praying for you – I do know how difficult it is. I don’t have it all figured out, I’ve only been out of SGM since April, but I have to say the people the Lord has placed in my life since leaving that I can trust simply point me to Him, and they do that consistently. They don’t give specific advice, they don’t have an agenda except to see me come to know and love my Savior more each day. So that is the counsel I would give to you. I apologize if I came across like “DON’T go to church anywhere” I was in part reacting to the counsel another had given you which I believe was not grounded in Biblical truth. I think we all need time to heal, and starting back in a church too soon for someone who has been hurt is not only difficult, but can reopen wounds and even bring some more.
My concern is for your personal faith and for it to be tenderly nurtured right now. Seek the Lord, and He will lead you, but take the time you need. There really is no time frame we have to be on on the path to freedom and restoration. The important thing is that He is walking this with you, He loves you wildly, and is pursuing you with relentless grace. In other words – He’s got your back! (and your front!)
First of all, I just want to say I really admire the faith that each of you express in your comments and I’m sure with your lives. Your strong personal relationships with God is so evident in your speech, and it really spurs me on!
Concerned, Thank you for pointing out the correction from the comment from Cd-Host, I agree with you – I think church-hopping right now would not be beneficial to me. I would like to visit other churches to learn more about what they do, I think visiting a wide variety of churches, although interesting, may not help build my relationship with the Lord. Right now I am not fully grounded in the word and I’m afraid I may fall for anything that comes from the pulpit wherever I go.
However I do feel the need to stay at my current church. I fear my sinful tendencies would lead me further astray if I stopped going to church altogether and receiving the accountability I already have there. I would be tempted to not find another church, sleep in on Sundays, never have my quiet time, and tell myself that “I’ll get around to it later”.
Gracie,
I don’t necessarily have similar life situations. Thank you for your prayers 
Yes it is such a good play!! And definitely one of my favorite books. I had the chance to see it on Broadway and it was phenomenal!
Eponine was my favorite because of her beautiful songs in the show, and I got to meet her after the show when I saw it
To everyone else,
I appreciate all of your care for me – the fact that you all would give me advice and pray for me and care for me when you don’t even know me is astounding. It brings tears to my eyes as I read your loving comments reminding me of truth.
I’m sure we’re just debating minutia and are closer in opinion than we imagine.
Eponine, I hope your journey into grace and spiritual freedom is an easy and blessed one.
Eponine- I know actually what you mean about fearing that you will fall away and not having accountability. Just be grounded in the Word. Wherever you are, the Spirit will bring you discernment. If and when He calls you to leave, you will be equipped and will not be susceptible to falling away as much as you fear. Right now though, I know the fear is very real. I respect the fact you want to remain accountable. If you have any friends outside SGM at all that you trust, I’d encourage you to ask them for prayer during this time, and for those at your SGM church you can ask for prayer but you certainly don’t have to be specific. The more you are able to talk with others (be in online or in person) about what you are (dare I say it?) FEELING, the quicker you will heal.
I confessed my sin of idolatry to those in my care group and no one understood. So, don’t be surprised if the response you get to some of your “confessions” or need for prayer are saturated with things like “the church exposes idolatry, it doesn’t promote it” and how you need spiritual covering from them. Study what spiritual coverings are in the Bible, equip yourself. Be prepared to give an answer for what you believe and what your convictions are. Some of the things I first studied was the “covering” that my church always spoke of. I was told over and over that I would fall away, and this really freaked me out. You don’t have to go so far as to question the motives or love for you that others have, just weigh what they are saying, and try to remember that many well-meaning people are still blind, deceived, and love you very much all at the same time.
I think it was KIS that mentioned the exodus from Egypt. Many many have likened their exodus from SGM, legalism, whatever, to this, and rightly so. The paralells are amazing, so I’d read it agin and see what the Lord reveals. There were several scriptures in Isaiah that really encouraged me – because I was feeling all alone and vulnerable in the wilderness – having left the “comforts” of my church (like the Egyptians left the comforts of Egypt, having meat, etc, they grumbled and GOd was not pleased.I didn’t want to grumble, so I asked God to encourge me because I was feeling terribly so awful, alone and vulnerable.) These are just some of the verses He used to speak to my heart, and they are the reason I said to read Isaiah. They remind me that even in the wilderness, He is there, speaking to us. So when you are feeling dry like a deserted wilderness: (the first two speak of those who would lead us astray and away from the Lord)
Isaiah 29:13-14 “Then the Lord said, ‘Because this people draw near with their words and honor me with their lip service, but they remove their hearts far from me, and their reverence consists of tradition learned by rote, therefore behold, I will once again deal marvelously with this people, wonderously marvelous; and the wisdom of their wise men will perish, and the discernment of their discerning men will be concealed.”
30:9-11 “For this is a rebellious people, false sons, sons who refuse to listen to the instruction of the Lord. Who say to the seers ‘You must not see visions’ and to the prohpets ‘You must not prophesy to us what is right, speak to us pleasant words, prophesy illusions. Get out of the way, turn aside from the path, let us hear no more about the Holy One of Israel.”
51:1,3
“Listen to me, you who pursue righteousness, Who seek the Lord, Look to the Rock from which you were hewn. And to the quarry from which you were dug…He will comfort all her waste places. And her wilderness He will make like Eden, And her desert like the garden of the Lord.”
14 “The exile will soon be set free, and will not die in the dungeon, nor will his bread be lacking”
54:17 “No weapon that is forged against you will prosper, and every tongue that accuses you in judgment you will condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the Lord, and their vindication is from me.”
59:1 “Behold the Lord’s hand is not so short that it cannot save; Nor his ear so dull that it cannot hear.”
38:19 “…it is You who has kept my soul from the pit of nothingness, for you have cast all my sins behind Your back.”
30:18 “Therefore the Lord longs to be gracious to you, and therefore He waits on high to have compassion on you. For the Lord is a God of justice; How blessed are all those who long for Him.”
Concerned,
The Lord used the Exodus from Egypt parallel with my husband and I, too. I think it’s amazing that so many others hear the same thing. What confirmation!
I found an amazing thing today - A journal I began shortly after our PDI experience. The first entry is dated in 1990. I’ve typed parts of it below. I’m afraid it will feel all too familiar to some of you.
It has been nearly seven months since we were asked to leave ____ (name of church), yet even now I feel deep despondency and pain over the whole situation.
“If an enemy were insulting me, I could endure it; if a foe were raising himself against me, I could hide from him. But it is you, a man like myself, my companion, my close friend, with whom I once enjoyed sweet fellowship as we walked with the throng at the house of God.” Psalm 55:12-14
Most of our close friends have turned their backs on us and withdrawn their love and support. Our name is being dragged through the mud as those in leadership protect and defend their position.
My heart is wounded and in anguish.
“But I call to God, and the Lord saves me. Evening, morning and noon I cry out in distress, and He hears my voice. He ransoms me unharmed from the battle waged against me, even though many oppose me.” Psalm 55:17-18
___(my husband) and I have come to realize just in the past few weeks that we are in need of spiritual healing. We cannot bring healing to ourselves; we can only rely on You to put salve on our wounded hearts.
“Cast your cares on the Lord and He will sustain you; He will never let the righteous fall.” Psalm 55:22
Gracie,
Those verses are so encouraging! Yet it is so sad you needed to use them in regards to your own church.
How long were you attending at PDI church before asked to leave?
Hi Eponine,
We attended for 3-4 years. My story is written earlier on this thread. It gives all the details of our experience. When I first found the blogs, I felt that my story couldn’t possibly have any relevance since it happened so long ago. I was hesitant to comment and sometimes gave disclaimers afterwards about how things might have changed since our day. But the more I heard and read, the more I realized that in some SGM churches, these same types of experiences continue to repeat themselves. So, I’ve stuck around!
Gracie,
Ps. 55 hits so close to home. How well David described his feelings, and how much like them were yours and mine. The sense of betrayal by people I loved, people who were claiming they loved me, was almost too much to handle. Thank God there is healing in His hands! We can say today that we are doing well, because of the Lord’s unending kindness and mercy!
canary saith: “The Lord used the Exodus from Egypt parallel with my husband and I, too. I think it’s amazing that so many others hear the same thing. What confirmation!”
Maybe you went through the next phase, too – of getting God’s vision for building or joining something new and different. Then the story switched to the second journey into the promised land, when the exiles returned from captivity to rebuild the temple and the city of Jerusalem.
The types and intensity of spiritual opposition they experienced (as in Nehemiah, Zechariah, etc) are essentially what I’ve experienced since leaving SGM. Once the enemy understood I was not going back to Egypt, but was intent on claiming my inheritance in Zion (Christ), he began throwing the same kinds of lies and discouragement at me that he did at those who moved back to Jerusalem from Babylon.
It’s really amazing how intensely he works against us, first to keep us from understanding our inheritance in Christ, and second to keep us from actually claiming and walking-into that inheritance. I guess that’s because we begin to threaten his kingdom by believing what’s written about us in the Word, and acting on those promises to expand the Kingdom of God at the enemy’s expense.
KIS, I have only just begun to realize the extent of the spiritual warfare…I know everyone’s experience is different post-SGM but a step by step guide to leaving and recovering would sure comein handy! I know, we have the Word, but it is amazing the things you see completely the same when you read others’ stories.
Initially, there is the sense of relief, and freedom, and joy. Then, for me, it began to diminish, fear set in, then great anger, then depression. Then it was boredom and restlessness (I’ve never been good at waiting on the Lord!)
But there has always been un undercurrent of spiritual warfare since I left that at times comes to the surface and I “see it” other times it is so deceptive and subtle…right now i have had this nagging feeling I am being accused, or attacked, or something, but not sure what it is. A wise sister in the Lord told me once that if it is a vague, confusing thing then it is the enemy, because the Lord does not play games – His voice is clear, His conviction by HIs Spirit is clear, and we know when He speaks. So I guess I have been under attack of somesort for the past few weeks. Just not sure what the enemy is up to.
I will wander in and out of the blogs as I feel led I suppose. I wish I could fast-forward a few years and be done with all this. I get very upset thinking that even more time is being taken from me during the post-SGM months – as if the years stolen were not enough. I know the Lord can restore the years the locusts have eaten, but when you are looking at the devastation, it is hard to have faith it will ever be beautiful again.
Praying for some beauty in the midst of the ashes for all of us…
“For you and Jim to be shunned and yet be told your were imagining it is weird but a tool of control that I saw in our SGM churches.”
Thank you for sharing that! Out of what I believed was God’s will for my children, I sent them to public schools. (After years of prayer, etc.) Though they had been in the church from the time they were babies, they were regularly shunned by other families, often in very painful, embarrassing and public ways. For years I was told it was just my imagination and of course, this “wild” imagination of mine must be based in sin. I can’t tell you the comfort I felt when another family, as they were leaving the church, came to me and ask my forgiveness for having shunned my children all those years.
Wow! It may have hurt to have seen my children suffer at the hands of their church family but it still felt just a bit good to discover I wasn’t crazy or sinful to have seen what was right in front of me. Oh, how I made my children suffer growing up in that kind of a situation. How long did I wait for SG to change and my children to be loved as I saw others being loved. How foolish of me. How hopeful I was that my church family would one day live as they spoke.
{{{{{{{{{{{{{ Stunned }}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}} <—– hugs
I truly understand what you are talking about. My kids were shunned by some, too. I pray that the verse about “restoring the years that the locusts have eaten” will come to pass in both our families.
“there’s still a part of me that hits “Publish” and then is almost too scared to come back and look to see what is said, just in case its’s “SGM-like”!!”
Dan, I feel just the same way. Who knew all that hold over hog wash would still be in my mind? I pray the Lord cleans my brain out of anything that is not of Him.
“long standing progression of interaction. There is never a single moment, one deciding action where the victim can point and say: “yup, right there, that is the bad thing I’m talking about.”
YES! Thank you for putting it into words I was unable to form.
“Pain
Finally, can any one help me understand why after so long, the experience at SGM hurts so badly. I have continued to attend church but have never regained my confidence.”
Greg, YES and AMEN. If you find the key, will you, please, tell me. It is not that I seek confidence in myself, nor in man. I want to know it only in Christ. But I have NO confidence that I am capable of hearing his voice any more or correctly interpreting His holy scripture. I do not lay this all at the feet of PDI/SG. It is due to some other circumstances that, though supported by SG, is not all connected to them.
DB, Oh my gosh, I think I know who you are! (Hope that didn’t scare you.) And you sure as heck better remember who I am.
As I read your line, “Yes. I got into trouble for the way I breastfed my children.” and then your other line, “Exact accusation because I wouldn’t agree to not discuss my parenting philosophies with others in the church,” I thought, I know a family from my old church that went through exactly the same thing. It took me moments before I realized you had the same intials as “that family” and the same name! I am such a dolt some days. OK, so how do I let you know who I am without giving away the whole store?
Last time you saw me it was at a wedding in 2001 and, ironically, it was that same day I received a letter from CF inviting me to find another church! Here goes the clues as to who I am. (Not that I am trying to play games, but as I said, no desire to give the store away publically.) I am a bit younger than you. Came to the church at 19 and already had my two children and a horrible marriage. You probably never even met my husband as I attended church, home group and prayer cell alone always. (Other than with, of course, my children.) My son is around the same age as your number 2 and 3 daughter. (Hate to “number” your kids but I don’t want to name your children here.) My daughter just a tad younger than that. I have almost black hair. We shared the same homegroup together, though at times you were in another home group. We would sometimes talk after church in the cafeteria where we would work to set up sunday lunches for the newbies. We ran into each other sporadically after that and it was always a pleasure to see the way your kids were growing.
My life had taken MANY changes since we last saw each other. I am in school now, too, having waited until my youngest was away at college before taking “my turn”. I wish I had gone earlier but I’m there now and that is all I can do. Only one semester left. No longer married. Heart still breaks over that daily. If you can remember me, all I ever wanted to do was glorify God through my marriage and raise my children to know how much Christ loved them. God had other plans. I think now, maybe, He wants to glorify Himself by providing for a woman who has never had her own career or own anything. Maybe He will show the world His power by taking this broken down, crushed spirit, who after decades of following hard after her savior, finally turned around to shake her fist at Him and what He has allowed to befall her life, and He STILL LOVES ME. I am sorry if I am about to sound religious (I hate that), but I am sitting here crying in amazement that He still loves me. Though to be completely honest (and characteristically for now completely lacking tact), I am still also angry at Him (amazing that He doesn’t strike me with a lightening bolt. He would be so right to). But He knows it and I believe, some day in his timing He will lead me out of whatever sin I am in, or hurt I am in, or whatever it is I am in, out to where the sun shines brighter. But I hope I never forget my years of brokenness. I’m sure God has some plan for it all.
So DB, feel free to get a hold of me and say hi if you want. I won’t be offended if you don’t. No worries. Good luck in school and I’m still curious what you’re studying. You’re a smart woman and i can see you will be a blessing where ever you wind up.
Concerned saith: “I know the Lord can restore the years the locusts have eaten, but when you are looking at the devastation, it is hard to have faith it will ever be beautiful again.”
I know the feeling. To use a metaphor, we instinctively think the “green” growing times of forest or garden are the best, because we feel so comfortable in them. But the Bible shows God working powerfully in desert settings. He repeatedly leads his own into the desert to purify and equip them there, before leading them out of the desert, and into more effective service.
There’s much more we can say about how God uses the desert, but the main thing is not to look on the desert as punishment or a lesser blessing. The great thing about the desert is that God meets his people there in unusual and powerful ways.
Hi Stunned!
I just found your above comment in our spam filter… sorry! I hope it wasn’t languishing there for long… (I promise I’ll check it more often!!)
Carole,
No worries. When I didn’t see it I assumed I had mistakenly deleted it unstead of submitting it.
Stunned,
If the powers-that-be allow (and I’m not talking about Jesus or anything
I give permission for you to have my email or just link over to my blog (I think if you double click my name, that will happen.)
I just had a chance to read your post and I’ll read it again with the intent of sleuthing. I have a slight clue, but I’m not sure. It may sound odd, but 2001 seems so long ago. Was it Kristen’s wedding or Ruth’s (Sarah’s was later on because it was the same year as my daughter’s wedding? I’ll read it over agin after I get back home from school this afternoon unless I’m completely overwhelmed by schoolwork.
Just a funny; my future son in law was at that wedding and we all sort of sat there trying not to laugh. If it was the wedding I was thinking, Dave Harvey went on and on and on and on to the point where a bridesmaid and a groomsman passed out. Literally, folks. And it was the second time Kevin (sil) heard a bride promise to intoxicate her groom with her love.
Which he thought peculiar. And he went on to promise *Jennifer* to intoxicate *her* with *his* love. Um, only a few people in that audience got the joke, so you had about ten people laughing and the rest of the crowd wondering what was so funny.
It truely breaks my heart to hear of the hurt people are still going through. That our Father loves us?! It is every Christians birthright (well, rebirthright, to be technical,) to bask in the love, favor, and grace afforded them by the cross. This is basic.
But I remember going through it, too. I wondered if I’d ever stop hurting from what happened to me. But I have, honestly. With a lot of prayer and a lot of healing. For me, I had to do a lot of personal growth, a lot of being ok with who I am as a person. To be honest, I’m still working on that.
Stunned, back to you, are you still in the Philly area?
Where do you go to school? If you say WCU, I’ll just about faint (because I’m a student, too.
Do you go to another church?
How are your children?
I really need to email you because the rest of the readership must either be frustrated by my longwindedness or have already skipped this post. (sorry.)
Oh, yes, you asked what I’m studying, I’m a Biology major with Psychology and Health Science minors. I’m doing the necessary work to apply to medical school :-O
Stunned,
I know you are posting particularly to DB, but my heart goes out to you. I’m so glad that He is making clear and real to you that HE STILL LOVES YOU! I don’t think our human emotions intimidate Him at all. In fact, it is probably far more healthy for us to own up to them and deal with them rather than suppress and deny them because we think Christians should never be angry at God.
It’s a small world. If we can facilitate the 2 of you getting together, let me know.
DB, I couldn’t find contact info on your blog, but will give your email addy to stunned if she asks.
This is pretty cool
sgmrefuge@gmail.com
Thanks, Jim.
If she prefers, she could post into my blog because I moderate all of my comments. I could just not approve it and it will stay unpublished.
I wish I could just give my email or cell number and be done with it, but my mom didn’t raise any fools.
I’m just thinking some more, Stunned was sort of androgynous in my mind. I’m still trying to figure who you are (I have a few guesses.)
It’s funny to think of my second and thirdborn as children. They were when you knew us well and you were sweetly protective of them by intentionally not mentioning their names. Funny, I sound like an old crone because one is a doctor and the other is a veteran Marine who did a tour of duty in Iraq. Sigh, they don’t stay little.
DB- Androgynous? Well, that was the first time someone has ever referred to me that way. I’ll try not to be too offended.
I would love to get caught up with you and hear what everyone in your family is up to. I’ll try to reach you via your webpage. And I am not surprised one bit that you are going into the health care field. That fits you so well! (Wow, is it strange having someone who can recognize your talents so well and you don’t know who it is? Maybe I’ll just wait a bit to contact you so you can feel all freaked out. Nah, wouldn’t do that to you. But boy, will I be semi-crushed yet laugh so hard if even after I tell you my name you still don’t remember me! What can I say, maybe I’m more forgettable than I realized.- Don’t worry folks, I’m plenty secure there.) And no, I’m not at WC. I’m guessing you know by now that WC is the college approved of by our old church. Some how, I have a feeling that is NOT why you chose it, though. No, instead I am at the ivy closest to us both. Certainly NOT approved of by CF members. And yes, it was Ruth’s wedding where I last saw you. I was busy serving food and all that. Funny that the last time I saw the pastor who invited me to leave there was when I was holding a tray so full of food I was having a hard time balancing it yet he was busy asking me if I had gotten his letter yet. Really? How about instead of standing in line waiting for the food I am about to serve you, you wait until after I am done sweating and working my butt off before you enquire about the letter kicking this sheep out of your flock? Ironic, isn’t it? I was feeding the flock and he was butchering it. Wow, do I sound bitter.
Gracie, thank you for your kind, beautiful words. Love, love, love. That is the greatest in all. Somethine I want to dwell on more and more. Not in a religious way but a real way. Thank you.
Jim, thank you, as well, for providing a forum where old home group peeps can get caught up.
“Funny that the last time I saw the pastor who invited me to leave there was when I was holding a tray so full of food I was having a hard time balancing it yet he was busy asking me if I had gotten his letter yet. Really? How about instead of standing in line waiting for the food I am about to serve you, you wait until after I am done sweating and working my butt off before you enquire about the letter kicking this sheep out of your flock? Ironic, isn’t it? I was feeding the flock and he was butchering it. Wow, do I sound bitter”
All I have to say is if you couldn’t manage to put some bovine feces in a bag and light it aflame and set it at his front door (and, yes, I know where he lives,) and ring the bell (I’ll drive the getaway car,) the least you could do is drop the tray of food on his frakking *head*.
And, no, I’m not bitter, I have a limitless capacity to entertain myself with my own fertile imagination
Oh, yes, and I’m appropriately impressed with your Ivy League status. What is your major?
And the androgenous status was based upon your genderless screen name, nothing more, nothing less.
And I go to WCU for some simple reasons; it’s 20 minutes from home, it’s ubercheap, and it has a pretty good Biology department. I was thinking of applying to your school for med school, but my GPA is 1/10 of one point below the mean for accepted students.
DB, don’t be impressed. I think they let me in on the “pity vote”.
You’re 1/10 of one point below the mean? GIRLFRIEND (yes, that was me yelling), if you want to go to ****, then APPLY (this time it was emphasis- ah, who am I kidding? I was yelling again)!!!!!!!! If you want to come down, I’ll show you around the campus any time. Not that I know the med school that well. I faint at the sight of blood. (OK, I only passed out twice.)
BTW, WCU is where my sister went. She got a good education there. And the price for the school is excellent!
As far as the bag on fire goes, I think I’ll pass. His wife would probably have to clean it up anyway, and I feel sorry for her. Heck, I feel sorry for him sometimes. They tossed his back side out of there about a year after they tossed me.
Stunned, yet happy to have contacted with an old friend
PS. “Contacted with an old friend”???!! See, they let me in on the pity vote. Clearly not an intelligence issue at all.
Stunned said:
Thank you for sharing that! Out of what I believed was God’s will for my children, I sent them to public schools. (After years of prayer, etc.) Though they had been in the church from the time they were babies, they were regularly shunned by other families, often in very painful, embarrassing and public ways.
I did see there was a message on You Tube that Josh Harris where he seems to discuss this problem. Here is the URL:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.....re=related
I am not at all saying that this one message solved the problem or made up for what you are saying occurred to your kids. Just making you aware of this if you haven’t already seen it.
My guess is that a number of people will take the same view that they did with a few of Harris’s “clarifying” messages on dating/courtship. With that message on dating at least some of have commented that they think that this cleared up the misunderstandings when it would take a lot more than just a few messages to correct the extremes that have occurred over the years. I am sure some people would take the same approach with this though it is a good start.
Just thought you might want to be aware of this. Sorry to hear what happened to your kids. It is sad when something like this affects kids.
Oh, stunned, it was schmuck #2 instead of schmuck #1 who hasn’t had his backside tossed anywhere seeing he has penned tomes that have been discussed here
And, to be honest, I am really jonsing to go to PCOM. I am more philosophically alligned with Osteopathic medicine. But UPenn has a great Allopathic program and I’ve been told I can’t just apply to the school I want to go to. But UPenn, sigh, I would need to get a stellar mcat score to have the gonads to apply.
And, pity vote, whatever. Jonathan’s football buddy is a student there and he wasn’t even a pity vote, Ivys don’t do pity votes unless Daddy is an alumnus that contributes uberbucks and/or you belong to one of the ruling families in the US.
DB, I have never known you to be lacking in gonads. I agree about PCOM. I’d be happier there, too. Maybe I’d have been happier at Penn had Daddy contributed big bucks. Maybe I would have gotten better grades, too.
As far as schmucks, I didn’t know mine had come back. You know, the short one with dark hair. Now I’m curious and have to go research. Are you thinking of the two pastors that were there waaaay back when you and I both started there. I thought they were both gone. If you tell me the shorter one was allowed back you’ll knock me over with a feather.
Naw, once they toss someone they are garbage forever. In fact, has anyone gone from ousted in some unpleasent way to on the in’s again? These two blokes go way back into the stone age. The one (not the one everyone here knows,) was part of the original church plant. The other was imported from another PDI church and swiftly settled into the corner office.
Anyway, as I said, I thought you were talking about someone whose name is well known around these parts (if you add Walbanger, you have a mixed drink
)
You apparently were talking about someone who, from what I understand, got bullied out of position because his son had the audacity to attend some other church. (but the true story may have, um, evolved by the time it hit my ears.)
You want to see me without gonads, come into my Physics lab today. I have a deeply entreanched math phobia and although I was doing my standard deviation calculation correctly, I had no confidence that I was right and *then* I was “group one,” and had to state my results to the rest of the class without knowing my data was anywhere near the rest of the class. Talk about fight-flight.
Oh, yes, don’t worry about grades, I heard UPenn is really hard on grades and your parchment will be from UPenn and that will open doors for you in a few short months.
“(but the true story may have, um, evolved by the time it hit my ears.)”
The true story sure enough did change! Much worse crime than that. It was a kiss. :-O
Good luck with class and deviations.
Stunned
that one semester after I studied standard deviations I can barely remember anything about them
Hi, I shared my story on the SGM Survivors blog, and I would like to share it here as well. I will cut and paste my two different entries from there. Thank you all for your time and attention. I hope that my story will help someone, continue to facilitate my growth and bring attention to the SGM leadership of this growing problem.
here is my first post:
I would like to share my experience with SGM. I’ve learned that my struggle with SGM has not been unique; similar situations have occurred before, but I hope this helps someone and also that it will help in my continuing process of growth and healing.
My husband and I live in a small town just north of Charlotte, NC. We attended a SGM for almost five years. For probably three out of the five years we attended, I had some real unease about SGM; it was often hard to put my finger on it, but I definitely had some problems and questions. Although I tried to approach this subject with my husband on several occasions, he was not really open to the possibility of leaving the church. At that time in our life, he was much more interested in being loyal to the church than addressing my concerns, so I continued to go in order to try to “follow his leadership.” I’ve since come to believe that leadership does not mean ignoring a spouse’s concerns.
But, I’m slightly digressing. One of the biggest problems that I have with SGM is their stance on issues concerning medications to treat issues such as depression and obsessive compulsive disorder and their stance on church members receiving any kind of counsel outside of the pastoral staff and/or care group leaders.
I’ll try to cut to the chase. I’m 40 years old, and I’ve had a long history with depression. Please, I do not want to argue on this website concerning the use of psychiatric medications and the value of psychological counseling. I just want to share right now.
Probably after attending the church for about two years, I began receiving some counseling, along with my husband, by the “sphere” pastor of our care group. I found this person lacking in compassion and additionally, incapable of handling my issues. He pulled my husband aside and told him, “She is this way because of your lack of leadership.” Well, considering that I’ve dealt with this from an early age, I don’t agree with that; I think the only thing that my husband should have been doing is “leading” me away from SGM and to a qualified counselor and psychiatrist.
In the fall of 2006, I began a descent toward a mental breakdown. I had never experienced anything like this before in my life. I totally lost my appetite, I had many panic attacks throughout the day, I spent most of the day crying, I had difficulty sleeping, and I became totally unable to function and could not care for our children. I entertained thoughts of suicide often, and I was fighting off recurring thoughts that were absolute lies, thoughts such as, “your children are better off without you.” It was the most frightening time of my life, and I don’t think I can adequately describe how it feels to know that you are losing it.
Again, we approached this pastor for counseling, not a good idea. I told him all that I was experiencing, including the struggle with suicidal thoughts. He then informed me that he was leaving the country the next day and would not return for approximately two weeks, but he said that we could schedule an appointment upon his return. I was stunned, and I thought, I probably won’t even be here when you return.
Approximately four or five days later, I received a call from another pastor asking for my husbands phone number. At the time of his call, I was in the emergency room of a hospital, hoping to be admitted to the psychiatric ward, which I was and spent and entire week there. I think it ended up being one of the best that could have happened to me.
A couple of months after my stay in the psych ward, my husband and I met with the senior pastor for around two hours; although he was gracious in his manner, he refused to admit any wrongdoing on the part of the church. He informed me that after my previous meeting with our sphere pastor he immediately came and told him (senior pastor) of the issue. Why did it take four or five days to check up on me?
I pointed out to him that I’ve seen two Christian therapists during my tenure at this church (and still continue with one), and both said that they have counseled people from our church, they continue to counsel some folks from the church, and that our church is very legalistic. I also told him that there just seems to be a real unwillingness to admit that they (pastoral staff and care group) are incapable of handling certain problems that walk through the door of the church.
What I really was looking for was an admission of wrong doing because I believe wholeheartedly that what took place was wrong (and not even sure it was legal). A crisis situation is not the time to deal with “heart issues”; those can be addressed later. I never got that admission and , after much anguish, I had to leave and soon my husband followed. Today my husband is able to see that there are many problems in that church and SGM as a whole.
If it had not been for the care and love of my mom and my in laws, I probably would not be here today. I am very thankful for them, and I am thankful for medication and a good therapist. I believe that they are God’s provision for me, enabling me to become functional again. I hope this story gives someone out there courage, hope and freedom to pursue necessary help.
here is my second post:
Thank you all for your kind words and supportive comments. I really appreciate them, and I am so thankful to find a community of kindred spirits. It is a blessing to have confirmation for me and my husband that all of this was not just due to my “mental illness” or my misperceptions, but that this is actually a very real, widespread problem within the SGM movement.
While sitting in church this morning, I couldn’t help but think of the story that I shared with you all, and I thought of many more things I want to add. The first point is related to what I stated in my first paragraph, the feeling that all of this I perceived at SGM was just due to my mental illness, and not being affirmed that what I was sensing there was very genuine and real and many problems did exist.
I am still amazed, after all of this time, that the leadership assumes no responsibility for any of the problems suffered by so many who’ve had experiences with SGM. It doesn’t seem to cross their minds that all of these bad experiences indicate a problem within the church as opposed to always assuming that the problem is a sin issue with us, the people who’ve actually gone through these experiences.
It is as though the leadership is not open to any outside criticism or acknowledgment that actual people outside of leadership can discern a problem within the church or within leadership.
In my previous post, I mentioned two reasons for wanting to share with you all; one is to facilitate continued healing in my life, another is the hope that my story can help someone else going through a similar experience. I thought of a third reason and that is that I would like to call the leadership of SGM to task in hopes that one day they will acknowledge that they have faulty thinking on many issues and have caused damage to a lot of people. Are my motives pure? Probably not a 100%, but if I wait to have 100% pure motives in order to do something, it is unlikely that I will ever do anything at all. I think that my motives are as genuine as they possibly can be and my overriding concern is that this will prevent anything more serious from happening within the SGM movement.
It is also my hope that I will be used to help those at SGM see that they are fallible, human and don’t have all of the answers. They must have accountability just like we all do, and not just to each other.
After my experience at this church, I honestly thought that I would never be able to attend another church again. Thankfully, we decided to visit a Lutheran Church on Easter Sunday (five minutes away, truly a local church for us), and a retired pastor from my husband’s past was (and still is) serving as interim Pastor. Scott always said throughout the years that this pastor always came to mind when he thinks of Jesus.
I can’t tell you how refreshing it was and continues to be to be in a place that not only preaches grace but conveys that as well. For the first time in a long time, maybe ever, I felt that it is ok to focus and dwell on the fact that God does love me, He sent His son for this whole sinful world, to reconcile us to Himself and have a restored relationship.
At CW, I always thought they just dwelled on sin incessantly. I was looking at some of my old notes recently, and I found a quote from one of the pastors. It said something like, “never forget that you are a sinner deserving only of hell.” That’s what I always came away with. Although they professed to love Martin Luther in that church, they certainly didn’t seem to dwell on some of this teaches, primarily that now, with our new identity in Christ, we are SAINTS who sin (lest we feel too good about ourselves).
I felt such a burden piled on by the church – the Sunday sermons were always intense, as though we were sitting in a theology class in seminary, the care groups were always heavy and meaty and we were always going through material with that, and then we had lots of seminars to attend. I understand the point and it is good up to a certain point, but at times I felt that it was overwhelming and like I was being force fed and overly fed. I just couldn’t digest the continuing information coming my way.
I often felt that the message conveyed to me was, “if you just obey your husband, everything will fall into place.” Please don’t get me wrong. I do think that there are some good, sincere people with SGM and I think they got a lot of things right so to speak, but I think that they are so overly concerned with getting their “doctrine right” that they lose genuine compassion for people.
I think of my current pastor as a kind, gentle shepherd, gently leading us to the true Shepherd of our souls. Last year, through my new church, I attended something called Tres Dias. One thing that was a tremendous blessing was all the variety of Christians there – we were worshipping with Methodists, Lutherans, Episcopal, etc., and I remember thinking how absolutely refreshing because at CW we almost had this mindset that we had cornered the market on truth and no one else had a handle on it. It was almost like some kind of church snobbery, and somehow I fell into that mindset too. I’m not talking about compromising the essential truths of the gospel, but things where Christians have genuine freedom but were elevated almost to the status of doctrine.
It was almost as though we couldn’t be accepted for where we were in the growth process – we had to sign forms that we all agreed on every single point on every single issue.
I in no way deny that I had and continue to have heart issues to work through. However, I do believe that there can be biological/chemical issues involved as well and those are not taken into consideration at SGM. Additionally, as I mentioned before in my previous post, I don’t think those heart issues should be addressed at a very heightened time of crisis. In my opinion, that’s like turning someone away who is experiencing a heart attack unless that person is ready to deal with heart issues right then and there – what kind of food do you eat? Are you a glutton? Are you a sluggard and don’t get appropriate exercise?? No, you get the person emergency help and then deal with those things when the person is stabilized.
I am sorry to go on like this. My intent is not to slander or gossip, and I don’t think that this falls into those categories at all, and my intent is to bring light to this issue. Thank you so much once again for allowing me to share my experience with all of you. I really appreciate it.
Thank you very much.
Traci,
Welcome! Thank you so much for sharing here. I praise God for where you are today!
You have made so many excellent points while telling your story. I was going to quote you, and thought, “what do I leave out?”
I truly believe that God will use your story to help others. While telling the ugly truth about SGM, I consider your story a hope-giving, God glorifying message.
Thank you!
Traci,
As another woman who suffered great emotional distress after leaving PDI/SGM, I can sympathize. There were so many things that the Lord had to re-teach me. It took years to learn not to fear, to learn how loved I am by Jesus. I did end up using medication for a while because the imbalance to my system was so great. I thank God for the doctors who were involved, the invention of medications that helped, and the loving people around me (especially my husband!) who saw me through. It is difficult to admit to all and sundry that medication was needed to calm my panic, but I did learn that God should not be put into a box. I submitted to His hand during that time, even to medication, and was greatly helped. Today, I am strong, able to walk without fear.
Sharing what you shared will hopefully give other people (especially women) courage to share, as well. Weakness was something we learned to be ashamed of because, after all, we got prayed for while the strong actually got the help! Such wrong thinking. Also, we should never turn from any kind of help the Lord chooses for us individually. No one has the right to judge that help, either! Traci, Jesus loves you so very much and is with you always, even to the end of the age! Thank you for being brave enough to share your story.
Traci
Thanks for sharing your story. It was sad to read what happened to you there. Hopefully your sharing here and on SGM Survivors will help others avoid all of what you went through.
A few weeks ago Focus on the Family had as a guest a pastor who went through something like a nervous breakdown from overwork. The pastor shared about mental health counselors and sometimes the need for medication to treat certain mental health issues. The pastor described pastors that shun mental health treatment including medications as “backwoods Applachian.” This same pastor went on to say that the same pastors that don’t believe in using medication for various mental health issues will be the same ones to use allergy and cholesterol lowering medicines.
I am sure there are a number of members/former members that have experienced similar problems with the SGM philosophy on this. It is as if these pastors think they can treat something way beyond their level of expertise.
Even if the Crossway pastoral staff had some type of “magic bullet” treatment or counseling technique (which they don’t) that would have helped Traci, it is clear that she experienced an amazing lack of care. A staggering lack of care.
Crossway members should remember to consult their pastor’s calendars before they experience a crisis.
Traci:
Welcome to SGM Refuge.
Your whole story was gracious, in my opinion (no sarcasm, promise) toward SGM. I pray for reform in my beloved SGM, especially in an area described by you:
“Please don’t get me wrong. I do think that there are some good, sincere people with SGM and I think they got a lot of things right so to speak, but I think that they are so overly concerned with getting their “doctrine right” that they lose genuine compassion for people.”
Once again, welcome and thanks for sharing a story that may not have been easy to share here and on Survivors. You are in my prayers.
…pk
By the way, Mickey.
I hope that you understand the opportunity you have here.
Thank you for sharing your story, Traci! What you have shared goes on all the time and not in just one church. It happens with adults, teens, and children. They’re just too much trouble, they can’t suck it up, they can’t “get with the program”…they’re expendable. They can’t “trust leadership”…they have to go find some other church. :/
“
Jim,
I would be “shocked” if Mickey or any of the other pastors from CrossWay ever responded. As I said on Survivors, their arrogance amazes me! They feel they are innocent of any wrongdoing.
I continue to pray for conviction, repentence, and change, but must admit that I grow weary in doing so. Even with members now leaving, they arrogantly cast all the blame on the members. They see it as a “weeding out” process of the “troublemakers” and of those who just don’t “fit the mold”.
Jim,
You spoke of checking the pastor’s calendar before experiencing a crisis. That’s funny and sad at the same time. This is what happens when only a few men are allowed to actually move in their gifts, when most of the Body is dependent on a few people. When real trouble comes, the pastor is spread so thin that he can’t help. So, you are taught to depend totally on these leaders, yet they cannot be everywhere at once, nor do they know everything, like how to counsel someone through a panic attack. The whole Body should be functioning, or parts that aren’t used will atrophy.
If it was my church, I would be disturbed if *one* person suffered as Traci did. In reality, SGM churches are leaving hurt people in their wake; so much so, we are shocked when we discover that we are not alone.
Church, like our family, should be a safe place; a place where we can go and be ourselves and feel relaxed and safe so we can go out into the world and face opposition.
They have it all bass ackwards.
Hi:
This is a simultaneous post on both SGM Survivors and SGM Refuge, as this subject has popped up simultaneously on these sites due to Traci’s (and others) testimony that exhibits a massive failure on the part of SGM leadership. This is an area they/we should be heroes in.
My comments stem mainly from my own experience, as I am currently on an anti-depressant medication. This is not because SGM has failed me or horribly abused me in some area, or, as in the view of some, I’m some nut job who has to be doped up to be nominally functional. Depression can have an onset at any time in life, brought on by tragedy or what others might think are the most mundane of circumstances. Sometimes docs get it right in finding the right medication; sometimes it takes months and months of work to find the right one(s). Juggling all of this with what may be sin issues (btw, “heart” issues is code for sin, and I think trying to box sin with Valentiney imagery is just flowery denial… but that’s just me) can be mishandled horribly when a pastor makes the leap to FIRST exhaust all avenues with rooting out sin, knowing nothing of the person’s medical history.
As others have pointed out here, most pastors would think its asinine to deal with “sin issues” while a member is bleeding to death from the femoral artery. What the person needs is a very temporary tourniquet/massive pressure applied, ER treatment and hopefully a skilled vascular surgeon who can repair the damage. The same goes with the brain. What is deemed as rebellion and sin and on and on and on may be a simple (or not so simple!) matter of a chemical imbalance. This rocking imbalance can be steadied at times with a mere prescription. That was the case with me. I wasn’t even able to undergo counseling for it to be of any value UNTIL the doc found a good anti-depressant for me. God used this miracle of medical technology to THEN help me recognize and see sin issues. He used it in the first stages to help “renew my mind.”
I think the only caution would be to avoid using the disability as a license to sin, which I’ve done before; in recognizing it was just pure old-fashioned conviction brought on by the merciful Holy Spirit, and not someone’s “observation.” Can some meds make you feel better about sinning? You bet. But the pastor has to have the wisdom and temerity to go into a situation with individuals with research, prayer and love. If a church has neither the time nor the resources to do this, they need to seek helpful para-church organizations and trained individuals to supplement their care/help, but stay involved in the whole process, absolutely. If the church or we at SGM are hyper in our diaper about outside help, then we really need to re-think our church polity and whether or not we should really be doing this whole messy business called church. When inept leadership takes the helm and tows the line outwardly without stopping by the side of the road to help the person who is suffering, the church is no longer “The Dearest Place on Earth,” and quickly becomes a person’s “worst place in hell.” Harsh language? Yes. But it has to be said. And if pastors are quaking in their boots after reading this, you should be. Repent! If you’re sneering and not quaking in your boots, God help you, Mr. Whitewashed Tomb, and God help your flock, especially. I pray that you do feel genuine conviction and repent, and have a desire to serve your flock instead of yourself. The same goes for you little “a” “apostles,” or whatever you call yourselves these days.
…pk
PK, Well said!
I remember in 2005 when I went through a surgery that messed with my hormones, how I asked the Lord if there was any sin causing my panic. Then, the next day I knew I was supposed to go on meds. because the panic I was feeling was a medical condition. I can only say that the Lord was right – within the week I began to improve. How terrible it would have been if I just continued to deal with my condition as “sin”, never getting help and never getting better.
There are times, folks, when the box just doesn’t fit God.
Wow, PK!
:standing ovation, wildly clapping, and even some whistling:
Great post!
Carole,
What is so cool about PK’s post is that those who have been made to feel extreme guilt over medical conditions that deal with depression, etc. can now have a different perspective on the issue. The Lord is gentle. He doesn’t lead us through condemnation.
PK,
My admiration for you has increased dramatically.
And I admired you greatly before.
Hi! I’m Fly – a Fly on the Wall at an SGM church. I am married, with homeschooled kids, and we have been attending our particular church for a fairly significant amount of time.
I have come here to visit from the Survivor’s blog. I was previously known on the Survivor’s Forum, but personal issues have deterred me from being active for many months. My intro was previously on the Forum, but I have snatched it from there to post here, edited. My apologies to anyone who will be bored by re-reading it…
I am Fly, and I am on the wall of a large [SGM] building. Around me I see, and am hearing of things going on that concern me, but none of it is currently coming too close to me personally… Although I am concerned. I am eyeing exits, and considering exit strategies, but currently have one foot stuck to some fly paper and cannot get loose. Also, I am fairly enticed by some fragrant Kool-Ade that is on the refreshment table, and if I can get loose I may just go for a swim before I look for an open door to escape through…
Anyway, I have reasons that I will not make public which have caused me to choose to be a part of this blog. I do not know that I have faith that I, as an insider, can make any impact to encourage necessary change within SGM. I am open to the potential of flying out of the building if the threats, issues, etc. come near to harming me or my mate or my little “maggots”… (okay, the analogy is breaking down…)…
Anyway, that’s my story and I’m sticking to it. My non-blog life stays way too busy, so mostly I will also be just a Fly-on-the-wall of this blog as well! [Besides, the discussion I saw on the main page this week is way too cerebral for what I can handle participating in right now...]
Thanks in advance for the welcome I am hopeful will be extended to me.
—Fly
Dear Fly,
I am the resident Canary, and I promise I won’t “eat” you, though I do love bugs, especially juicy flys. Hee-hee. Okay, that was gross.
I remember your posting on Survivor. I can understand how hard it must be to remain in your position as “fly on the wall”. I have a friend in the Charlotte church in a similar position. I want to say that it only takes a little tug boat to change the course of an ocean liner. A few people walking in and extending grace to those around them can make a great difference.
It would be interesting for you to “test” folks around you. If, for instance, someone asks you to bake cookies for a meeting, say “No, I’m sorry that I won’t have the time.” Will that person respond graciously or grudgingly? Do you have enough grace in your life to say “No”? Just a small type of test that we canaries use to check out the air in the mine shaft. I guess in your case, it’s like checking out the refreshments. Is it really Kool-aid they are serving?
I’m so glad you are posting and reading here. I desire to see those in SGM walk in the freedom that is theirs in Christ. Jim and Carole have alot of love for folks there. PK, as well. It is wonderful that some current members feel safe enough to post, because none of us want to slam SMGers. People like you are the reason we are here, right Jim?
So, welcome Fly! Can’t wait to hear more from you when you have the time to post (and watch out for those fly swatters – they can be a real headache!).
Thank you, Canary. Well, I have managed to walk in freedom, but am now beginning to have concern for how SGM Kool Aid is affecting the little maggots…
And the flypaper that makes moving on difficult may be deeper that “mind-washing” or “emotional” attachment… Relational attachments sometimes go deeper than leaving behind relationships you’ve invested in for… decades… Sometimes the relationships involved …something even more connected than that… (I remember Carolyn Mahaney’s sister used to be in SGM, if you get my drift…)
::sigh::
Yeah, Fly has a foot stuck on the flypaper and is struggling with it…
But, yeah, thank you for being here for people like me. I don’t think anyone at my SGM location realizes there is a live Fly stuck to the flypaper, because the flypaper seems to be under the radar, placed where SGMers are not able to notice it…
Fly,
Gottcha. You may still be at SGM to help un-attach (word?) your fly paper so as to bring it with you. Just keep a close eye on the little maggots. They are the innocents in all this!
Too true. But I didn’t know what I was doing, and they were drinking the Kool Aid. One of them, at least, now is concerned, but half drugged. While seeing leaving as the right thing, this one may still leave kicking and screaming (or whatever little maggots do when they are almost full-fly and fighting something… )
Fly,
My oldest, now twenty-three, was around 13 when we left PDI. He saw some of what was going on, but saw more later after being away from it. Today, he desires fellowship with true Christians but wants to avoid the whole “sitting in the pew fellowshipping with the backs of peoples heads” thing. So I am watching as he searches for his “place” in the body. Right now, he attends a college fellowship group that meets during the week. He is discovering what truly works for “church”.
What I guess I’m saying is this: kids will see more when they are away from the control of leadership, etc. So will you! When the time is right, take your kids and flee. The Lord will show you! Until then, avoid drinking anything there that smells remotely like kool aid.
Will take these words under advisement…
My older children are similarly church avoident although they are Christians and good people in general.
They are completely repulsed by church.
My younger children who were not hurt by our collective experience have no troule with church.
Fly, do your older kids have any Christian friends who aren’t in SGM?
hmmmm….. not sure how free I can be to speak right now and maintain my anonymity. Still trying to stay under the radar. I will say that in the event of a break from SGM, I am hopeful for us to find a new home together rather than have them not attend church or have them desiring to go to a different place than their parents…
Hi Fly!
I too remember you from survivor’s message board. Welcome!
I understand your stuck foot. If we had left PDI of our own volition, no doubt I would have faced the same predicament. It was excruciating enough as it was. I will pray for you, your fly-mate and the little maggots.
Thank you from the depths of my little insect heart!
Dear Fly,
I don’t know who you are, but there are many like you, and you ask the right questions that will help families to be free. I tried to leave with as much integrity as possible, and not talk about why I left, (which was devastating to me) and I was still “kicked on the way out” So now…..I am in contact with some families that wonder, how do I get out of this mess…ESPECIALLY with children involved. I think my heart is broken as much for the second generation SG robots as it is for the second generation SG kids that now say “there is no GOD” Oh how I pray for these children and for yours. Gods word is faithful and true. He will guide you out and do so with peace…Christ died for my sins, but Fly, He died for our freedom. I am praying for you to. I take this stuff seriously. There is a veggie tales video snoodletales….the snoodletale has wings like a fly…..God said I gave you your wings, there your special things, I didn’t make you just to fly, I created you to soar.
In conversation with family this very evening.
Jim, thanks for the email you forwarded to me. I’ve changed my email that I used on my signing in today, just so you know (it’s still me)
Fly
Fly, am praying for you. Hope it went well. There have been others who have left SGM with siblings in leadership still in SGM. The family I am thinking of inparticular…well, it has been especially hard on them. Even the parents (who didn’t used to be SGM) have condemned them for leaving, even though they left for him to be a music pastor at another (very good, well established, legalistic free) church. This new job was a blessing which allowed him to provide for his family. Who would slight that?! Years later, the relationship is still very hard and painful for the family that left. I pray it is a new time and a new story for you.
Stunned, but glad she is out of SGM
Fly,
We seem to be in a similar situation. Hubby and I left the church when we had some major marriage issues going down about 2 years ago. Didn’t want too many questions, if you know what I mean, and had enough taste of the biblical counseling koolaid, which was of absolutely no help (hurt and humiliation, actually). We still usually attend parent teen and non churchy things like picnics and parties, softball games. Some folks are cordial but distant, some don’t know enough to even ask.
Anyway, the only thing holding us in the least bit there is one of our teens. We had gone there since he was 9 years old (now 16), and these are his homies! He is in it big time, plays on the sunday worship band, leads worship at cg, and all his homies are there, learning sexism and all that. Did I say that?! Hubby and I struggle daily with this! We are trying to encourage him to meet kids other places, and he wants to do a high school sport (public school – gasp), so maybe that will open up some new things.
I have mentioned many times how my heart breaks for these teens who are so sheltered. These young women with great talents who are working at preschools, or fast food… I digress
I don’t have other extended family to deal with, so I can’t imagine how difficult this is for you. In fact my parents are glad we left that church.
Freedom is out there.
whereisthelove,
What a hard place you are in with your teen. At that age, friends are everything! The Lord has unique ways of dealing with us as individuals. He has a plan for your very special situation, because He is God. I find that He works things out in ways I least expect, amazing ways! My heart is with you on this. I have also wondered about the SGM kids who never know their freedom in Christ. But our God is so BIG!
Stunned,
It is so hard to believe what you wrote, yet I’ve seen it with my own eyes. How can anyone presume to tell someone else where he should work, go to church, etc.? Why remove the love when someone doesn’t do what is expected? That is not Jesus, not at all. It must have been so difficult for you to watch happen.
Fly,
I’m praying for you!
Wanted to thank everyone for their prayers this week. Charllie, sorry I didn’t reply. Your message and prayers were received and appreciated.
Stunned, is that like telling a pregnant woman horror stories about bad birthing experiences? ::sheesh!:: No, just kidding. It’s just not very encouraging; but it’s the way it is.
Where is the Love, unbelieveable, this week. After a peer-agegroup-related meeting, “maggot” in question was so clearly willing to visit another church tomorrow. Might visit with Fly-mate, but Fly-mate isn’t feeling well tonight, so it might now happen tomorrow. Other younger family will not visit, but will just be talked to if/when we make a decision about change.
I’ll be quietly here on the wall, but I think I’ve got my foot free from that flypaper…
This is my very first time posting and I’m shaking as I write. I am afraid I will be known by my church and I also feel like I am a spy. I guess I’ll just start to tell you what is going on in my family. For the past 4-5 years, I’ve become increasingly depressed at church and could not put my finger on it. So I kept quiet and continued to be a sgmer. I bought into all the sgmese on courting, homeschooling, etc. What woke me up was my daughter. She became the barometer of what was going on. It was a wake up call. Let me clarify that she was a SGMer all the way. Her best friend also a lifer in SGM began to think for herself some time in highschool and was IMMEDIATELY shunned by all but my daughter. As my daughter entered the college age group she became aware of how “different” she was. She does not feel called to be married at this point and would like to have a career that isn’t an SGM approved one. She gets the eye roll when she tells them she can’t make it to caregroup because of an exam. She can’t look at any more books on the “approved” list. As time has gone on I began to see a child that was on fire for the Lord become increasingly depressed and began forcing herself to go to caregroup and other activities to make her friends still believe she was “spiritually” ok. Finally, after coming out of hiding, she shared her concerns about the legalism and immediately was dropped as a friend by someone she held dear. i could go on and on but I want to tell you about our delimna. We also have a son who is a great kid who seems to be able to drown out the legalism and sin seeking. He’s liked by all and is neutral right now. My husband is ready to leave and I don’t know what I want. I don’t have any close friends after 21 years in SGM. But I am afraid of what it would do to us as a family to start over. These 2 children are not little and leaving would mean disrupting their lives. Yes, I know the teachings are making me feel I’m a wretched sinner with grace sprinkled in there somewhere. I haven’t seen anything out there that doesn’t have problems. When I ask about the highschoolers in other congregations, the answer is usually “We’ve got our problems. We don’t seem to be reaching them.” That scares me. I have to say we’re not actually meeting the kids in our highschool group either. I know I’m rambling on and on. Sorry, I just don’t know anymore.
Anxious,
We are so glad that you felt the freedom to post. Welcome!
Your dilema, I’m sorry to say, is nothing new. Yet it is new and unique to yourself and your family. I feel for you!
There is only one way to go: follow Jesus. I lost all my relationships after 20 year in PDI/SGM when my husband and I left. It cost us so much. Yet, we have found the freedom in Christ that we never knew before. The Lord Jesus led us out of legalism, and we followed.
So, find what HE is saying to do, and do it by faith alone. He will meet every need your family has along the way. He is dependable and faithful. There just aren’t any new words to describe Him, so I’ll have to stick with the familiar (how about, HE ROCKS!, as my kids would say…hmmmm…the ROCK rocks!). Seriously, He is good and kind. He will never lie to you. He wants you and your family to have the freedom in Him that He promised. Authoritarian churches tend to box God. That’s why they have so little power. Find out what the Lord wants, and do it by His strengh, in faith that He will not let you down.
I hope this helps some. I will be praying for you and your family with great empathy. You are not alone!
Canary,
Thank you so much for your kind words of advice. I’m so glad I’m not alone! I’ve been reading the posts for about a month now and everytime I would start to post, I would delete it in fear. So thank you again!
Anxious,
You are very welcome! Remember, there is no fear in love because, “perfect love casts out fear.” Controlling churches tend to nurture fear in us. It wasn’t until I left where I was at that the Lord was able to begin setting me free from my terrors. Today, I am amazed that this little much-afraid is more courageous than she’s ever been. Things I use to fear no longer have control over me. Only the Living God could do that!
The Lord does not lead us through an unhealthy fear. That is a warning sign to watch for in the church where you are. If I’m off on this, and you have no fear, then oops, ignore me. Also, you certainly don’t have to fear posting here. The folks who have been in your shoes will only offer love and their own experiences to help you. We KNOW how you feel! Hugs!
Anxious:
This is a prayer I made after reading your post, and I wanted to share it with you a means of encouragement and a knowledge that you do not have to face this situation alone:
Father, in the precious name of Your Son Jesus, I petition you on behalf of Anxious. You see her crisis right now Father. Strengthen her, encourage her, and empower her with Your Holy Spirit. Let her be a source of encoragement to her daughter (whom we pray for as well). Surround Anxious with fellow saints of Your choosing Father. Remind her You are not a Spirit of fear, but of peace, love, and a sound mind. Like David, protect her as others may set themselves against her round about. You are a shield for her, her glory and the lifter of her head. Give her husband the strength and wisdom to lead and support her and the rest of the family.
Find a place, a sanctuary in You, Father, for Anxious and her family.
In the name of Jesus Christ,
Amen.
…pk
Anxious: Welcome! As someone who experienced a great deal of fear myself over these things, I know how hard it is to comment for the first time. Please know that you are among sympathetic friends here, no matter what you ultimately decide to do. As I’m sure you know from reading, we are well represented by both the “going” and “staying” camps. May the grace of our Lord be with you!
Anxious,
I almost could have written your post, as we are in a very similar situation. My college age daughter is also pursuing a non-sgm-approved-for-females career. She has experienced many of the same things; no one understanding that she has an exam and can’t go out with the gang, she doesn’t have that *sit around and wait for a man* mentality, etc. Basically she has very little in common with the other girls her age. Just last Sunday she said it would be her last at the SGM church (local church, that is, 20 miles away!). She has found a home group of mostly college kids that she loves. she will likely be moving to the University campus in Jan. That would go over big, I’ll bet – it’s a large public university!!
My husband and I have been gone (for the most part) for a little over a year when we hit a rough patch and got little help. Fortunately we had the presence of mind to get counseling. One of our sons, however is still in big time, playing in the worship band, leading worship at cg, and, like you, we don’t want to make him hate us for taking away most of his friends! 16 is a hard age for a big upheaval like that. We are seeking wisdom also! I think he is game to visit a nearby church dh and I have visited, but the worship leader won’t give him a week off to do so. Dh just wrote him another email, asking him to give ds days off so we can attend church as a family. We’ll see.
All that to say that we are in a similar spot, and I totally understand. I actually have taken a lot of time to re-examine my faith and to heal from all the garbage that’s been going on around us. And that’s ok, too. It’s all about Jesus. That’s all. I echo PK’s prayer for your family.
whereisthelove
(I’m slowly finding it, but not in the church)
pk and exintern your comments brought me to tears! I am sitting here in my daughter’s room, my son is here also. I tried reading the comments to them and couldn’t without crying. Not from sadness but from gratitude.
Thank you, I will keep you posted.
Anxious,
Welcome to The Refuge!
The situation you find yourself in is very difficult… I know, having been there myself. I know (from experience) that God is with you all in the midst of everything. He will lead you and guide you, just listen to His voice.
When my husband and I left our SGM church, our children were older, like yours… even a little older. I’m happy to report that they are doing well, much better than when we a part of the SGM church. I believe the legalism that is so rampant in SGM affected my kids and their spiritual life negatively.
One thing I’ve learned is this… God is the Father of my children. I shouldn’t be anxious or afraid for their salvation or their spiritual well being… that is entirely up to Him. (Although it is my job as a Mom to encourage them and counsel them)
I will be praying for you as you move forward in this decision making process.
Dear WhereITL and Carole,
As this day wears on I find myself in the grieving process of what is going to occur if we leave. Part of me wants it all to just go away. That being said, if the messages and youth caregroup continue to be too heavy into examining the sin and none of the joy in Christ, I don’t think I could go on denying how depressed it makes me.
What, I’m so darn curious, is the verboten career choice?
I guess my daughter’s headed for hell for having the audacity to become a doctor.
And i can’t imagine what they’re saying about the one who was a kickass Marine defending their collective backsides against terrorists.
And if that isn’t enough, I have another daughter at CMU as a *Physics* major. Don’t ya know girls can’t do math and science, it’ll clog their fallopian tubes.
DB,
You crack me up! Math and science clogging fallopian tubes is a new one on me. Of course, anyone doing such important work as your daughter, saving lives and all that, won’t have time to marry, keep her house spotless, have kids, etc…she won’t be a godly woman! It sounds silly even as I write it. I bet your daughter, like most doctors, has felt called all her life to do the job of healing people. Kudos to you and your husband for breaking the SGM mold and steering her towards her dream. That is so wonderful!
Anxious,
To you and your family: “Weeping may last for a night, but joy comes in the morning.” The grieving over leaving is natural and to be expected. It will get better over time, as you discover your freedom in Christ. No more enslavement to man’s traditions. There are churches out there who will help you find that freedom. Not all church leaders wish to control their flock. Not all teach only about sin. Many show true grace. Following the Lord should be a joyful thing. It is our call to know God and enjoy Him forever. We should get started here on earth, else we won’t be in good practicing shape for heaven, where they enjoy the Lord all the time. God will lead you! Hugs, again!
I’m looking forward to chatting it up with Anxious and comparing daughter-notes.
I bet what her daughter is pursuing careerwise will be interesting and something that will positively impact her world.
Oh, and this present bad feeling won’t last forever.
anxious-
welcome-I’m praying for you guys, that you know what to do and for your family -that you can be at peace with whichever path you choose.
peace to you-mm
DB,
After reading many of your posts, I just want to say that your kids ROCK. And kudos to you for encouraging them to follow their dreams! Pssst…I guess I shouldn’t say anything like *forbidden jobs*, because ya know, no one ever DID say anything, and they would never SAY anything, but you’d know the whole time that anything but working with kids, maybe at a store would not be preparing her for her future. but here is the absolute best gig; working for someone else in the church!
I want to be sure and mention that I love the people at our former church. They think they are doing the right thing. I believed that too. My heart is breaking for these young women, many of whom are full of spunk. I hope things don’t turn out ugly if one does happen to desire more.
My dd is pursuing a degree in Finance and Business Administration. she’s thinking about minoring in Psychology, which is probably not on the list either, huh? Sorry, the non-list :-0
Hi Folks:
I don’t want to break up the good encouragement here… just a quick post to apologize for a lot of folks’ comments being held up in moderation or spam filters. I will try to stay on top of it, but I might need some extra grace over the weekend and such.
Thanks for your encouragement to Anxious and surrounding her with care. You guys are the best.
Anxious: Keep faling upon the sufficiency of Christ! We are praying for you!
…pk
Judging from what I’ve seen personally, teaching is accepted.
I’m not sure about anything else that’s a BA (shudder to think of what a BS does to a girl’s complexion.)
Um, not that I have anything against teaching, one of my other dd’s is a History and Ed. major
WITL,
“I think he is game to visit a nearby church dh and I have visited, but the worship leader won’t give him a week off to do so. ”
Won’t give him a week off? Huh? Will the angels or humans not know how to sing if your son isn’t there? will God not get worshipped that week? Odd, really, really, incredibly odd.
And your daughter considering pyschology? Don’t you know that’s of the devil? Sorry, couldn’t help/didn’t want to help that sarcastic comment. When my baby girl first went off to college she, too, studied psychology. I can’t tell you the reproof I was handed. I was a bit more ready for it because the year before my son hadn’t chosen to go to the only uni that had an SGM homegroup. (I can’t stomach calling it a “care group” after all the awful stories here. How about “control group”?)
Anxious,
We’re so glad you’re here.
Welcome!
DB-your 2:47 is a DB classic! The use of “kickass” and “backsides” in the same sentence…
PK- “And if that isn’t enough, I have another daughter at CMU as a *Physics* major. Don’t ya know girls can’t do math and science, it’ll clog their fallopian tubes.”
Random quote material?
Stunned,
It puzzles me too. I have been hoping for a good reason this is happening. At first ds was scheduled every week, but that was when dd was attending and drove him over (again 20 miles). Dh and I asked if the worship leader would scale him back to every other, or 3 on 1 off, but the next schedule we got he has been on 7-8 and off ONE. WLeadr was perfectly cordial when ds was out of town or had sporting events on Sunday. There is at least 1 other person who plays what ds plays – it is a very small church – so I don’t get it and so much don’t want to think the worst of WLeader.
Oh – is it strange that out of approx 15 listed as in the band, only 4 are over 21 years old? These folks do a great job, but it seems a lot for these kids to have on their plate. Same with Childrens min. I can’t think of more than 3-4 parents who work in there. These teens and young adults are being worked hard.
WITL
a rebellious heretic, leading her children into God knows what
If I might add my voice, yes, include the fallopian tube comment in Random quotes! It’s hilarious!
Fallopian tube comment: priceless. ROFL.
Dearest sister, WITL: your son doesn’t have to have permission to not attend church on Sunday– INFORM the worship leader he will not be there–he will be worshiping at another meeting of the Body, and there are others there that can fill in for him, or not–they will live without him.
You are his parents, not the worship leader. Isn’t that, technically, the SGM byline: fathers are the heads of their homes? Put it to the test on this issue, and see if they truly believe this, or not.
When you leave, you will, most likely, not be able to spend the time you have spent with people from SGM.
Why is this? Because they will probably reject you if you don’t toe the SGM line.
So, are you their friend, or not? If they reject you, you are not their friend. If they continue in relationship with you, you are.
But you will find other friends who will love you, and will not really care too much where you choose to worship, as long as you are spending time in a worshiping body. Many of us are in close fellowship, have good friends, love worshiping together.
However, our church is not our life. Jesus is our life.
Freedom waits for you. Life is about Jesus, not our horizontal relationships. The second flows from the first, not the other way around.
Be free, my sister!
Thank you Musicman and pk.
DB you are a riot! My daughter is going for an MBA but recently has thought about film production. She likes the part of producing where you manage the costs and whatever goes into that. She writes fiction and non fiction-hoping to get her book published this year.
Glad to be of service.
OH, and as far as the kickass daughter goes, it is quite literal.
Quite. This weekend she is representing the US in the World Shoto-cup (Shotokan karate.) she’s a Sandan (third degree blackbelt.)
And last time she went to world, she was tied for 4th place in kumite (fighting.)
So she will quite literally (likely at least,) kick at least one person in the glutials this weekend.
Hey guys,
I haven’t posted in a while, but I continue to be a faithful reader and to lift you up in prayer! You guys rock, doing a great job educating folks and providing a “refuge” for the hurting.
Anxious,
My heart goes out to you as a mother. SGM did more damage to my teen aged and college aged children’s spiritual wellbeing than being exposed to the immoral, Godless environment of high school and college COULD EVER DO!!!
The legalism almost destroyed them. We ”went in” with them all loving the Lord and joyfully and confidently seeking after Him, and “came out” with them so beaten down…each one questioning their ”worthiness”, feeling like they would never measure up enough for the Lord to love them. They knew they were constantly being watched and judged, and that they would be shunned if they didn’t follow the SGM guidelines.
Praise God that He led us out and to a grace filled church that has ministered to us and helped them see the abuse for what it is. Their joy and confidence have returned, but there’s still “stuff” that pops up occasionally as a result of the abuse.
I think about the”millstone” verse from time to time, and if anyone in SGM ever considers whether it could be applied to them. I know they don’t see themselves this way, but neither did the Pharisees in their day.
Kindred:
Great to hear from you, and thanks for the kind words about the ‘Fuge and especially your prayers. Jim and I truly hope and pray it is exactly how you describe: a place to discuss, a place to learn, and a place for the hurting to allow others to smother them with the love and care of Christ.
I am rejoicing your children got the care they need. I am hearing these stories too much: how the hard-lining of man’s interpretation of sanctification is in some cases actually inspiring rebellion/rejection in our church “babies” as I call them (yes, I’m old………-er).
I think of the millstone verse as well. I will probably use it someday, as I already have used the niceties of “blind guides” and “whitewashed tombs full of dead men’s bones.”
The shunning of our youth that takes place is shameful, despicable, and has no place in the church.
Something we need to keep in mind is a point R.C. Sproul raised in a message I heard on his “Renewing Your Mind” program: The Scribes and the Pharisees were the “Reformers” of their day. What started out as an earnest ”return to the faith” effort on their part morphed into a self-righteous and legalistic maelstrom. Their hearts were unchanged by the volumes of scripture and commentaries available to them, and instead they thanked the Lord for not being “like that miserable sinner.”
Those of us who have been changed in a good way by the Reformed faith must keep the above example in mind, or the disaster of self-righteousness will fall on us.
…pk
Kindred Spirit,
Thank you for your insight. Today we visited another church and it felt good once again to breathe. The kids stayed at SGM. My husband and I left before the kids got up and as we drove we both thought “Oh great. What are they going to say if they ask where we are.”? My daughter said they talked about what they would say but thankfully no one asked. After the service, my husband started asking the pastor all sorts of pointed questions about their stand on gifts, heirarchy etc. The man graciously answered as much as he could and said to call him to talk more in depth. I think we are so concerned that any church right now looks threatening. As I talked to my daughter last night she shared how at a singles meeting, she looked around at all her freinds she grew up with, and felt like crying. Not because she will miss them if we leave, but that they are decieved. My son is confused by what we are doing but trusts us.
As anxious as I am, I feel a peace and hope for our future. I cannot thank all of you enough for your prayers and support. You are a beacon of light in our storm.
Anxious,
If we are a beacon of light in your storm, your are one of the reasons we all post here. It is such a priviledge to support and encourage you and your family as you search for the freedom in Christ that is yours. I know it seems frightening to go “out there”, away from everything familiar. You will also have trouble trusting new leadership. That’s okay. It’s normal. You will have to give yourself time.
You are beginning a great journey, one that will bring you amazing joy in the Lord. Soon, you will need to change your name from “Anxious” to “Resting in God!”Lots of hugs! We are here to support you!
“Something we need to keep in mind is a point R.C. Sproul raised in a message I heard on his “Renewing Your Mind” program: The Scribes and the Pharisees were the “Reformers” of their day. What started out as an earnest”return to the faith” effort on their part morphed into a self-righteous and legalistic maelstrom. Their hearts were unchanged by the volumes of scripture and commentaries available to them, and instead they thanked the Lord for not being “like that miserable sinner.”
Those of us who have been changed in a good way by the Reformed faith must keep the above example in mind, or the disaster of self-righteousness will fall on us.”
PK,
EVERY Christian pastor, teacher, leader, and parent needs to have this posted in a spot that is highly visible to them on a DAILY basis! Oh how pitiful we are…to repeat the SAME mistakes over and over and over again!
I echo the same sentiment from the comment I posted under “Strong Women” with reference to the damage being done by legalism to the children:
“We’ve had this same discussion on the Survivors site NUMEROUS times!! It keeps popping up and it’s OBVIOUS that it needs to be addressed within the church. It’s sad that the only place you’re hearing it discussed is among Christian bloggers on the internet.
The fact that it pops up with such frequency and with such “passion” on so many different Christian sites is proof positive that this is a SERIOUS issue within the church. You can’t tell me pastors and leadership are not seeing this, as well. What are they thinking?”
Lord, hear the cries of your sheep and alert the shepherds tending the flocks of the dangers and the disease spreading among them. Raise up shepherds like “young David”, fearless in the Lord, ready to “tackle” ANYTHING that poses a threat to the flock, including the status quo of leadership!
Kindred,
You rock! Great words!
Hi All,
I have been reading this site for the last several months. My mother (anxious) posted earlier on here. Well I am actually finding myself in a predicment and would value input! Earlier this year when I attended NA I felt God saying two things. 1) That He really was going to stretch my church and 2) I was not supposed to leave. Since then I have gone through many ups and downs but God has blessed me with an accountability partner I’ve known my whole life, who has grown up in my church, and can completely understand where I am coming from. I have also been blessed by being given a leader’s position with the youth that I love so much! Over the last two weeks things have gone crazy. I have come to the realization that SGM and my local church had become my idol. I am now free from that and am experiencing some healing (granted there are still a lot of things I am working on.) I have noticed lately how the teens, some adults, and very close friends of mine are so depressed with the struggle they are facing. It has really hurt me deeply because I care for these people and those in our church that still do not see what is going on. I have done everything the SGM has ever asked of me and I have gone to the Pastor’s to speak my worries to them. Of course I got the typical response which was nothing.
I have care group tonight and am tempted to speak openly (with wisdom of course) but I fear two things. I just got the list of girls I have for the high school care group and God’s blessed me there! Also I don’t want any more trouble to come to my friend for being open and honest. I realize this could jepordize my leading role but honestly I am not sure that it matters. I still don’t feel God calling me away from the church but am ready if I am asked to leave. I hope some of this makes sense.
Refer to Anxious’s first post which has a little of my story.
Hi Stuck:
First, welcome to SGM Refuge! We are praying for you, your mom, and family as a whole. God is gracious.
My own advice in regard to tonight: do your best to share the truth in love. Don’t look for a fight, but do not back down if you feel the Gospel is being compromised with man-centeredness.
I can relate to the call of staying with SGM, as that is what I am doing now. While my feet are firmly planted and my prayers and calling -I believe- are to being a contributing force for reform within SGM, as God allows me, I also have to face the fact that He may call me out and away from SGM at any time.
Cast down your idols and return to Jehovah. There is no easy way to do this. When God shows us our idols independently of someone outside seeing this, this is an especially gracious and kind act on His part. Seek His face. Seek His Kingdom. Vocalize your concerns regarding your friends who seem so downcast. If the response from a leader is a sandbag to put you off until others can quiet you, respectfully say so and point this out.
Before anything else, seek His wisdom and peace. Go into tonight’s meeting with a quiet but deliberate strength. measure your words, but don’t hide them. Pray.
I am praying for you!
…pk
Welcome, dear sister!
If you share your concerns honestly in your care group, you will probably be taken out of leadership. So, that is simply your choice. Sometimes it is good to stay in order to have an impact on the ones you influence.
However, you really need to hear this: at a ‘normal’ church, people are not so afraid. Being afraid of losing positions, friends, etc., is not from God. Of course it is never good to wallow in criticism of others…from the pastors down to the tech guy. However, specific concerns about theology or polity or legalism should always be open for discussion.
The Bible calls this ‘iron sharpening iron,’ in which we mutually encourage, mutually learn, mutually worship, mutually rebuke, mutually argue, mutually laugh, mutually live in a community of equal importance, in submission to Jesus.
Be cautious, my dear sister, in hearing from the Lord in the midst of emotional experiences–be sure that you can search the Scriptures, like the Bereans, for comfirmation. Sometimes, in the midst of a great retreat or conference, mountaintop experiences, we certainly hear from God. But occasionally we hear from our emotions–which are ‘up’ due to the great time we are having in worship, community and teaching.
But God also, and I would argue usually, speaks in a still small voice when we humble ourselves calmly and quietly before him.
So…I guess the question is this: why would you share with your CG tonight? Are you truly seeking wisdom from them? (try Jim, Carole or PK instead, or an uninvolved mature believer). Or are you trying to make a point? (you will find yourself sorely outgunned, I suspect) If so, I might urge caution.
I certainly expect that you will have many praying for you from refuge and survivors. These are really people you can trust, lovely brothers and sisters in Christ you want the best for you, their sister, and not themselves.
After reading PK’s comment, I am thinking. Always dangerous.
My concern comes from your position as a young woman. It is hard for a young woman to deal with mature men–they have a way of dominating that is really hard.
However, PK, your words were good, and as I reflect, they are what I would do.
However, I am a tough old b…., and have learned to not take much.
I am worried about Stuck’s ability to withstand a barrage of words and arguments.
Dear Stuck, will you have kindred spirits there with you?
RT& Stuck:
I certainly wouldn’t encourage any reckless behavior (this can only be determined and tempered by scripture and prayer).
When I said “vocalize your concerns about downcast friends,” in my mind’s eye I saw a dialogue between you and the leader(s), not so much a public setting.
Hope this clarifies.
…pk
Pk, thank you for your comments! I have grown up in SGM so I am well aware of what will be coming tonight if I share. Granted, I never jump into anything without really considering the implications it will have on the next couple of days, weeks, and months. Tonight I will not be in a mixed group of individuals as it is accountability night. God has been ever so gracious to place me in a group where most of the individuals are more understanding. I intend to speak in love and use personal experiences that I can draw from. I have not fully decided that this is what I will do but will continue to pray throughout this evening seeking whether the Spirit is moving.
“So…I guess the question is this: why would you share with your CG tonight? Are you truly seeking wisdom from them? (try Jim, Carole or PK instead, or an uninvolved mature believer). Or are you trying to make a point? (you will find yourself sorely outgunned, I suspect) If so, I might urge caution.”
Rt,
The reason I want to share with my cg tonight isn’t because I am seeking any wisdom from them. I have spent most of this year watching and waiting to hear from the Lord. I have been quiet for two years while working with the teens and watched as we are losing them to the world and pushing them further away from Christ. The reason I want to speak tonight (in a gentle manner) is because I love and care for my friends here and deeply care for the souls of the teens. If anything I am seeking to put some food for thought on the table for others to mull over. I shared something several weeks ago and during the discussion had others agree and expound on what I was saying. I don’t want to start a riot or bring dissention but I want to try and gently bring about a change.
Hi Stuck (and Anxious),
I have been out of town and just now getting caught up with your posts. First of all, let me join the others in welcoming you! So very glad to have you visit and participate. I am sorry to hear of your predicament and will be praying. I remember quite vividly the fear and anxiety you are currently feeling. But there is an end to it and at that end is FREEDOM and JOY.
Stuck, I think you really hit the nail on the head when you said that your church had become your idol. IMO, that is one of the major errors being propagated within SGM from the top down. The local church (with its leaders) has become an idol, something to be served instead of the Lord Himself. In many SGM churches, everything is focused on the goings on in the local church, the needs there, the vision there. The local church has become the cornerstone on which SGM’s foundation is built. Members are expected to serve solely in the local church in many cases.
In addition to the idolatry problem, there is a smallness to this approach that is concerning. The Lord God is BIG! His people are EVERYWHERE! Opportunities to serve Him are EVERYWHERE! He may have placed a desire to serve in someone’s heart that cannot be fulfilled within the confines of the local SGM church.
I think that SGM leadership has it exactly backwards. Instead of looking for ways that members can serve and support the pastor’s vision for the local church (making him a success), pastors should be looking for ways that members can serve the Lord and support God’s vision for His Kingdom at large. They should be listening to the hearts of their people, looking for their gifting and callings, then serving THEIR MEMBERS by equipping and training them, fanning to flame that which God has placed in their hearts, and turning them loose into the world. Risky? Maybe, but so much more exciting and effective! Wouldn’t this begin to remedy the navel gazing and inward focus which stunts the church and kills her joy?
Anyway, sorry for the rabbit trail there. I guess it just gets me charged up when I read of you, Anxious and Stuck, feeling fear, of your friends being depressed, and worst of all, of hearts growing cold toward the Lord. Ladies, you have gotten much wise counsel from those who have responded to you before me. I would just add that it is a delight to those of us here who have experienced similar pain within SGM to be able to help in any small way. I will be praying with the others here that God will direct you through this season with grace and peace. Blessings!
Stuck-
Don’t be afraid to do what’s right.
Lord I pray that you be with Stuck, and guide her tongue by your Spirit and the power of your word and loving kindness. I bless her with your peace and with the knowledge that she is a holy daughter of the King washed in the blood of his Son and clothed in Him.
May the peace of Christ rest upon you!-MM
Thank you all for your prayers! God did move tonight. I was able to speak though not what I had hoped but He brought some clarity for me. I am realizing the best I can do is continue to pray for God to move in their lives and for the leadership.
PK,
I don’t think I have mentioned this before, but I really appreciate the fact that you are so quick to encourage people here on this site. I want you to know it hasn’t gone unnoticed.
S
Stuck,
I’m so glad it went well tonight! We will not stop praying for you as we think about you.
btw, “Granted, I never jump into anything without really considering the implications it will have on the next couple of days, weeks, and months.” I WISH I could be like you!
“Thank you all for your prayers! God did move tonight. I was able to speak though not what I had hoped but He brought some clarity for me. I am realizing the best I can do is continue to pray for God to move in their lives and for the leadership.”
Welcome, Stuck!! I am just now getting caught up on the posts from last night, so just saw yours and the responses.
The Lord bringing you clarity is such a blessing!! But sometimes it doesn’t seem so at first, sometimes it can be quite painful. And you realizing that the best you can do is continue to pray for God to move in their lives and for the leadership is a powerful thing! Because prayer is powerful, that’s why Jesus taught us how to pray!!
God will move, He will change things – though we don’t know how or what He will use to do His will in SGM. But He cares for all of us who trust Him and He is in control.
This thread has taken a very sweet turn.
I’m glad you had a positive experience; prayer is a powerful thing.
Stunned:
Thank you; undeserved, but thank you.
…pk
Stuck:
So wonderful re: God moving. We are continuing to pray!
…pk
Hi Stuck!
Welcome to The Refuge!
Jim and I were out of town (w/o access to the internet) when you posted here… hence the late welcome.
You sound like a very mature, godly young woman who loves her Savior, walks with Him, talks with Him, and wants to live a life worthy of Him. Know that, as you seek Him and His wisdom, He will lead and guide you. (I’m sure your Mom is so very proud of you and thankful to God for you!!)
I will be praying for you!… and I continue to pray for SGM.
Thank you all so much for your prayers! I have come to the conclusion that I can no longer stay under this leadership and will be in the process of leaving over the next couple of months. Though this is sad God has started moving in my church. I just found out that pretty much my entire accountability group sees odd things happening in my church. Though they don’t see it to the point I do it’s a start and I think many of them are starting to question. I have always watched as some families that have been around forever are starting to question things as well. I think things are finally imploding and I pray this will be a wake up call to the leadership.
Wow, Stuck – they were actually questioning things out loud? That is God moving for sure!
Hello Stuck,
I am proud of your decision, and for speaking up. After leaving, so many bizar things happened. But I do know that many other families left (unrelated issues) and that many questioned. Questioning in SG brings dicipline of some sort. So some are scared to question.
I really just wanted to say I am praying for your family. God will protect you and lead you. Use this opportunity to see God for yourself more clearly. He will watch over the teens, they are His. You are not stuck, you are hemmed in behind and before and He has laid His hand upon you. I am praying for you….
Stuck,
Still praying when I think of you. will keep it up. Thank you for sharing.
My daughter (Stuck)
I thank God for your perserverance and faithfulness to your Lord and Savior!
Love,
Mom
Stuck,
You are beginning an amazing adventure! I trust the Lord will lead you into a new place, filled with the joy of the Lord. We are all here for you as you make this leap of faith. The joy of the Lord is your strength!
I’m glad you’ve come unstuck!!
Unstuck! Amen, DB!
You’re in our prayers, Stuck.
Please pray for our family as my husband presses “send” tonight on his email to the pastors. Mine goes out tomorrow. Stuck will wait for a few weeks.
Anxious & Stuck:
I am praying!
Remember Who the true source of your faith is, and this will provide strength for your family. That source isn’t any system by which to obtain righteousness and peace in your home. Your righteousness comes from Jesus Christ, and peace is a natural rippling effect from that miracle.
…pk
Will do, Anxious.
We got “the call”. It didn’t go well. My husband is going to talk with the Sr pastor tonight. He is giving the pastor 1 hour to say his piece. He called my husband at work so that is why it will continue tonight. I was up till 2am with my daughter and her friend discussing the sadness of losing “friends”, how to make real friends and how to relate to the opposite sex. They really don’t know the way to talk to guys as friends. It is always percieved as flirting in sgm. That has been so messed up in their minds. These 2 young ladies are not called to marriage at this point but to the mission field wherever that might be. Sgm friends look at them as if they have 2 heads! Not all of them, but most.
Anxious & soon-to-be-un-Stuck:
All I can say is that I am praying for your family:
Father, in the precious name of Your Son, Christ Jesus, I lift up Anxious, Stuck, and their entire family to You, Lord. You and You alone know exactly what they need, when they need it, and how they need it. Give them Your peace that passes understanding, the unfathomable stillness that comes when roaring seas turn into planes of glass at the sound of Your voice. Holy Spirit, protect them, comfort them, and use this to sanctify both them and those involved with SGM. Show them Your family extands beyond the boundaries of church walls, and Your love extends from this world into the next. Father, we thank You, for You are Holy, Righteous and True. Be their strong tower.
In the name of Jesus,
Amen.
Amen, PK.
Anxious and Stuck,
I’m so very sorry. This is the really yucky part of leaving a controlling church. My husband and I will always remember that one, final meeting with our Pastors. The beautiful thing is, though they seemed angry and confused, our hearts were filled with love as we hugged them for one, last time. God is love, and you can feel safe in being guided by this love.
I’m lifting you both to the Lord!
I’m praying too, Anxious. Like Canary, I vividly remember what turned out to be our final meeting with the leaders. It did not go well. Your hubbie goes into this meeting with eyes much wider open than ours at the time. That’s a very good thing!
Grace and peace to you!
Hi Gracie!
I’ve missed you. You are so right. Anxious and her husband will have much more understanding of what to expect as they leave SGM. Wish we’d have known what was coming! We were taken totally by surprise. Thank the Lord there are a few blogs now that can at least warn of the possible pitfalls that can come with confrontation of leadership.
Feel our prayers, Anxious and Stuck!
I’m glad to see you, too, Gracie!
Anxious and Stuck,
Thank you for being so honest and open with your concerns and prayer requests. We will all be praying for you during this difficult change.
I can’t remember if I read here or over on sgmsurvivors that you are from the towson/baltimore area? That’s close by to me! However I am still attending my sgm church for the time being. Let me know if you find any good churches in the area as I’d like to visit some for a new experience.
I will be praying for you, and don’t forget that you can never slip from the hand of God. He is in control of your life, not a pastor, not a caregroup leader, nor a fellow church member. Only our Father knows our inner thoughts and desires. He knows what is best for us and where to lead us. Never can anyone manipulate his glorious plan. May you feel his presence during this time of turmoil and remember that he is walking with you every step of the way!
I also meant to add to that – Psalm 139. Such a comfort to me and a reminder that God is not only my Savior, but also my Creator and he knows more about me than I do. So only he will know the best path for me to take through life. Isn’t it comforting to know that God has a plan for us and he holds us in the palm of his hand? Wow even writing this now is overwhelming me with his goodness and faithfulness to us! God knows every decision we have to make, and not only that, he knows the right one for us! There is no need to fear, for God is in control and you can cast your cares upon him.
PK,
“That source isn’t any system by which to obtain righteousness and peace in your home. Your righteousness comes from Jesus Christ, and peace is a natural rippling effect from that miracle.”
AMEN BROTHER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I need some suggestions. I’d like to start visiting other churches but I have no idea where to start – due to my lack of knowledge about most other denominations. What type of church would you all suggest trying? I actually agree with most of SGM’s theology, but I want a smaller church that also isn’t as legalistic and controlling as SGM. I’d like teaching to be rich but understandable, not shallow – same with fellowship. Now, these things will most likely be different from church to church – but, if any of you have suggestions of a certain type of church that has these things that I may like, let me know I’d really like to hear!! thanks!
Eponine,
Everyone is going to be ‘prejudiced’ towards a group of churches they love, but every individual church has the potential to be whacked.
So, although I would certainly commend PCA churches to you, I have been in one that was very much like SGM. However, the presbyterian system will ultimately deal with churches that are out of whack. We have been in fabulous PCA churches where grace is preached and freedom is offered.
If you want to, email me at sarahandbensmom@gmail.com for a recommendation where ever you are. I can ask around for a healthy church in your area.
You might really like the EPC, too, they do ordain women to the position of elder, but unless you have a problem with that, you will find them quite solid and the denomination is definitely on the move growth-wise.
Eponine,
I don’t recall off-hand what your story was or your background. But I will share what the Lord has been teaching me about finding a new Body to fellowship with and learn with.
I spent a great deal of time allowing the Spirit to reveal to me anything IN ME that might make certain groups, teachings, etc dangerous or at least detrimental – or things that would encourage sinful tendencies in me, things that would “play up” areas of strongholds in my own life. I don’t say this in the same vein of “indwelling sin – you are the problem” like SGM does – I just say it to say that there are things that were in my heart (idolatry, fear of man, people pleasing, legalism) that certain denominations and churches would have brought out more just as SGM did. I would have ended up in the same place as before.
Ultimately I have felt led of the Lord to attend a nearby Calvary Chapel – with the full knowledge and understanding that Calvary Chapels also believe in the “Moses Model” of leadership like SGM (pastor rule, etc) and there are very many similarities between the two groups in other areas. SOme CCs are even guilty of shepherding and being authoritarian and I’ve read stories of people who came out of their churches feeling just like we did leaving SGM. However, Calvary CHapel is openly opposed to Calvinism, meaning, they don’t downplay human responsibility – from my experience IN THIS ONE CHURCH they teach both responsbility and GOd’s sovereighty alongside one another – as Scripture teaches us. THey are charismatic, and they do expository teaching of the Word line-by-line, with occassional “topical” studies as the Lord leads.
THat being said, I think it is only because of the particular pastor of this church God has given me the green light – he himself had experience with controlling churches and authoritairanism and I have never once sensed a lordship, controlling nature, or seen any sort of idolization from the Body towards him. Now I never sensed my former pastor either being this way himself, but that doesn’t really mean anything in and of itself. When I talked with and watched the Body and how THEY responded to leadership and him in particular there WAS an elevation, reverence that went beyond Scripture. Very much a Moses model of leadership in that “he speaks for God and is accountable for my soul, so I submit to him no matter what” mentality.
Bottom line is the Lord will lead you. Read about various denominations, and search the Scriptures to see what is something you should not compromise on, and ask the Lord ot reveal what, if anything, was actually a detriment to you spiritually during your time at an SGM church. He will be faithful to show you where you should fellowship and when the right time is. If you start feeling “pressured” or guilty for not going somewhere, check your heart, motives, etc. I have personally found that much revealed itself in time (fear of man, etc) that would have sent me into the wrong church at the wrong time if I had gone on those impulses when I had them. Remember He is not the author of confusion. James 3:14-17 was helpful to me about identifying what spirit was behind things – the Holy Spirit or another spirit.
May the Lord Himself lead you as you seek a Body where He will be glorified and everyone else edified in their faith…
We ended up in a Vineyard. I think I needed very grace-oriented and tolerant people and the Vineyard people are very much that way.
I say that fully understanding some people will not feel Vineyard is a good fit. You really need to find the church that works for you.
Understanding none of them is perfect.
And also, our church didn’t get into some of the funky excesses associated with the movement.
My story may come in bits and pieces as well. I wanted to start by sharing a poem I wrote a while back after thinking about Ezekiel 34.
On Behalf of Scattered Sheep
When the lion comes and the bear attacks,
Sheep tremble in fear and distress,
With none to guard and with none to guide,
They scatter and flee from known paths.
And their cries resound,
Shepherds… where are you?
When ground gives way and crumbles beneath,
Sheep stumble and fall, breaking limbs,
With none to lift and none to bind,
They lie helpless in pain and alone.
And their cries echo,
Shepherds… where are you?
When rock covered land offers no food,
Sheep hunger and thirst without ease,
With none to feed and none to tend,
They starve and in weakness they waste.
And their cries call out,
Shepherds… where are you?
When pest and disease bring harm and destroy,
Sheep suffer and bleakly lie still,
With none to care and none to heal,
They cry in their anguish and moan.
And their cries repeat,
Shepherds… where are you?
The Good Shepherd hears,
The Good Shepherd comes,
He rescues and tends every lamb,
He gathers His sheep, brings them into His fold,
And He turns, asks the shepherds,
Where were you?
My sheep were in danger,
My sheep needed aid,
My sheep had no pasture or stream,
My sheep knew despair as they languished alone,
Where were you?
Where were you?
I wanted to clarify that the church we were in was not SGM. However, it did use some SGM music and at least one book. I did not see the book until we were in our last weeks there. When I skimmed it there were some red flags raised by the material.
The other day I saw a link to SGM Survivors. I followed the link because our experience was difficult and I wondered if there was any connection or anything that would be helpful. From there, I found my way here.
Since reading the stories of others I have seen similarities. I don’t know at this point if it’s because authoritarian and abusive churches are similar, whatever their background, or if because other SGM material was used.
At any rate, I’ll see what I can write if that’s OK. Thank you.
INC,
What a beautiful, gripping poem. It really sums up the warnings to the shepherds and reassurance for the sheep found in Ezekiel 34. Very sobering. Thank you for sharing it.
I love this part of Ezekiel 34, starting with verse 12:
“As a shepherd seeks out his flock when he is among his sheep that have been scattered, so will I seek out my sheep, and I will rescue them from all places where they have been scattered on a day of clouds and thick darkness. 13 And I will bring them out from the peoples and gather them from the countries, and will bring them into their own land. And I will feed them on the mountains of Israel, by the ravines, and in all the inhabited places of the country. 14 I will feed them with good pasture, and on the mountain heights of Israel shall be their grazing land. There they shall lie down in good grazing land, and on rich pasture they shall feed on the mountains of Israel. 15 I myself will be the shepherd of my sheep, and I myself will make them lie down, declares the Lord God. 16 I will seek the lost, and I will bring back the strayed, and I will bind up the injured, and I will strengthen the weak, and the fat and the strong I will destroy. [1] I will feed them in justice.”
As far as your story goes, write as you are able. There’s grace here.
Gracie,
Thank you so much for asking. Peace ebbs and flows. Wednesday night I was at peace, but as Thursday rolled along I felt more anxiety and doubt. Last night was very difficult. Thank you for your continued prayers.
INC,
Hi! I’m Canary. My family and I left SGM in 1997. It was rough for a while, but I want to tell you that it WILL get better. No matter what controlling church you came from, the pain we all share is the same. The Lord, your true Shepherd, will guide you gently. He really wants us to learn to enjoy Him, as He enjoys us! God bless!
INC,
I’m so glad you have found a place where you feel you can share and begin healing even if it was not in an SGM church you experienced the hurt.
I think the reason many sheep are battered in various denominations is because of exactly what you said: the authoritarianism and shepherding. All about controlling the sheep. Now the MEANS by which this control is exerted varies between denominations and churches, but the spirit behind it is identical. So the results produced (in us, the sheep) are similar as well. I think that is why you find some sense of belonging here – for which I am glad!
Keep sharing as you feel able. We’re here to listen, pray, encourage. Just so you know about me, I was in an SGM church for 3 years, left April of 2008. I am now attending another church in another city, one which is more led by the Spirit and grace filled – but not to the extreme.
feel free to email me privately anytime if you want- libertyinchristATliveDOTcom you can read my story on my blog (linked to my name above)
welcome again!
INC,
I understand what you mean about peace ebbing and flowing. There were days where I would feel strong, only to be followed by days where I was fearful or confused. Other times I just felt numb. But God brought me through. He sent dear folks to love on me and pray for me and He patiently and kindly helped me sort out all the confusion. No doubt He will do (and is doing) the same for you! As Canary said, it will get better!
We’re praying!
canary, Juli and Gracie,
Thank you so much. I have been debating in my mind about what to post. See my comment on the Concerned? thread as to why (I was accused of gossip at the last meeting and that really hurt).
I truly appreciate your care and prayers. I did write Carole last night and I told her that after reading about Noel and Esther my story seems almost innocuous. However, my struggle with doubting God and the harm done to my relationship with Him has been immense. I’m not sure why that is so, but it is.
I also told Carole that while the details are different from stories I have read here, the themes are the same: vague or duplicitous communication, control, lack of pastoral care and compassion for needs and anger and denial when leaders are confronted and power plays on those who object and confront.
INC,
I believe the reason that our struggles after leaving a controlling church have been so great is because we put our trust in men while believing we were putting our trust in the Lord. Now that you are “free”, you can begin to know the loving Father who created you, the beautiful Son who died and rose from the dead for you, and the gentle Comforter left by Jesus, His Holy Spirit. Search your Bible to know your true God. How illuminating the word becomes when the Holy Spirit reveals it to our broken hearts.
Also, because your experience was nothing like Noel’s does not mean anyone here will minimize it. We have all suffered in our own ways. The Lord knows just what is right for your particular situation. We are glad you can come here to find comfort and help!
INC, I understand the temptation to compare our stories to one another. But really, as Canary said, nobody will minimize it. You want to know why? Because the bottom line is the same with everyone, no matter the specific hurt, the varying means, or the persons involved: we were abused spiritually.
I know some don’t use that term lightly, or agree that what happens in an SGM church IS spiritual abuse, but I personally think it is, and the more I have read about it, the more convinced I am, because they have taken truth, twisted it, deceived, manipulated and controlled, and the end result was our personal relationships with the Lord were affected.
Canary told me months ago how she read Hebrews after leaving SGM and I decided to do the same, and it was a blessing to me, it began untwisting some things that had been twisted. Also, Galatians.
Marinate in His sweet Word dear one.. the balm of Gilead..He is our Healer!
Hi INC!
There is a sin called gossip, but I do not hold to SGM’s definition of it. Their definition is narrow and many times wrongly protects those in leadership, releasing them from any accountability from the lowly sheep. The only reason their accusations of gossip work to shut us down is because we are sincere believers who truly want to please and obey the Lord. IMO they are using our sincere devotion to the Lord, teaching us to equate devotion to the Lord with devotion to their leadership, and then controlling us with their own definition of terms.
So what is gossip, really? IMO, there is a spiritual dynamic to it- it’s a heart issue. When we are just curious about people’s dirt or bored and want something juicy to discuss, and this discussion of other people’s problems and shortcomings makes us feel superior to them - that’s when we’re falling into gossip, IMO. But to shut down legitimate concerns or complaints using the supposed sin of gossip as the means is hurtful to those who are sincerely trying to get to the truth.
And by the way, FEW of our stories are as horrific as Noel’s or Esther’s. Canary’s and mine are on this thread somewhere. Still, the fallout is REAL and healing is necessary. Your pain is REAL. But we’re here to tell you, that God’s healing is REAL too!
Good words, Gracie. I also know that trusting again is a hard thing. Some of us have gotten through that easier than others. I STILL struggle with trust, at times. So INC, just take your time and let the Lord minister to you.
Canary!
I haven’t mentioned that we are so glad you’re back!
Thank you, Jim! Boy, alot has happened while I was off line. I did check in periodically. Otherwise, I’d be so behind!
It’s good to see that there are new folks posting…
canary-
Tyranny, Survivors, and refuge are experiencing HUGE spikes in traffic.
God is exposing SGM. It’ll be interesting to see how this plays out…
Jim, I’d love to have others encouraged by the work the Lord will do in SGM for their own concerns with their denominations – like Phoenix Preacher for example..I think for every “movement” there is probably a blog somewhere that people can discuss their concerns with things – I think this is good, but of ocurse will always be criticised by those most idolatrous, er, LOYAL, to the “movement”
I’m glad to be part of seeing the healing, repentance, and redemption the Lord is doing in many lives in SGM
Juli,
You are more than seeing the healing. You are an instrument in His hands. God is using you to play a part in that healing.
You and Gracie are such vital members here. Carole and I are overwhelmed. She’s on the phone right now with someone who found us. I work 60 hours a week, and spend hours every week on the phone with men within sgm.
Your presence is vital here.
Thank you so much!
you ever see “Facing the Giants” Jim?
you and Carole “planted your field” when you began this blog…and now the Lord is sending the long-awaited rain.
the harvest is coming…
Yayyyyyyyyy!! My buddy is back!! {{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Canary}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}
:}
The harvest is coming. I’ve never seen the movie, but just read a review.
The cool thing about sgm is that they just look like a giant. The just act like a giant.
They are no giant.
there is a scene where a man says – two men prayed for rain. But only one planted their field, expecting the rain to come.
If you don’t plant your field, even if you are praying for rain, it shows you have no faith God will bring the rain.
So this blog is the field that was planted and God is raining down on it (through it) by many lives being healed, nourished, fed, protected and cared for…and the harvest is coming.
instead of slings and a stones, computers and voices will bring down this giant…
Hey Jim,.
Guess what?? I’m prophetic (lolololol <—- at myself)
I wrote this to you back in December, when you said you were discouraged and saddened and that was part of why you weren’t posting much.
Ellie
December 13th, 2008 at 10:26 pm
Jim,
Don’t be sad!! It’s time to press in now and PRAY, pray, pray! God’s letting these things become known for a reason, and maybe soon change is coming so that our brothers and sisters in PDI/sgm will be set free from the plans of men and the glorious GOOD NEWS of the Lord Jesus will be made known to everyone who is burdened and weighted down by any legalism!!
Ellie – isn’t it good to see Canary again? I missed her too!!
Ellie,
My sadness came from that fact that I don’t think I’m going to get what I wanted. It came from the fact that SGM is in far worse shape than i thought it was when we launched back in June. My sadness comes from the knowledge of what SGM is currently doing. The stories of the current carnage left in the wake of men intent on building their kingdom. Not to negate the older stories in any way, but I for some reason had hope that things had changed, or could possibly change.
Those who have been here a while know that my hope was to see reform within SGM. We called ourselves a pro-sgm site.
I’ve personally given up hope for any real reform within SGM.
I’ve said thank you half a dozen times here and I’ll probably say it some more. I do appreciate your kind words.
I think I understand what canary is saying about putting our trust in man while believing I was putting my trust in God. For me, the big problem over the years has been to trust in God’s love for me. My dad was an angry and abusive father (he is quite ill now and did ask my forgiveness a couple of years ago. I gave it and try to live in it, but I know there’s is still healing that I need). At any rate, during tough times in the past, the love and care of other believers has helped me to trust God even when circumstances were pulling me to think God didn’t care. I know this is a big part of why the church problems hit me so hard.
Here’s a beginning:
I volunteered to help out with a ministry that I knew the church wanted to get started. I had a lot of experience in this area in various churches over the years and was enthused about it.
There were some things we saw that raised a few flags, but rather than examine them more closely, I thought, perhaps, they will learn and grow from this or, perhaps, God just wants me to quietly work. I confused thinking I should not ask for perfection with not expecting maturity and humility. In trying not to do the former, I missed the truth that I should have done the latter. There were several times the pastor listened to me about concerns and so I thought we were moving forward.
Some initial research I was asked to do, well, it seemed like it fell into a black hole. There was no acknowledgment or letting me know what, if any decision was made from the information. I later realized that lack of gratitude and communication was not just a one time occurrence but typical. However, at the time, not wanting to be easily provoked or be petty, and since there were other things to do, so I worked on.
For a number of months, I read a book, discussed, met with one or two others, wrote some ideas and plans. There was a feeling off and on that whatever I did was somehow not exactly what was wanted. I revised, explicitly tried to find out what was wanted, but over time was met with vagueness. I thought then that perhaps there was just lack of knowledge, but now I have wondered if the vagueness was due to the fact that I was not headed where they wanted me to go. I realize now there was a lot of passive aggression exhibited in dealing with me. As long as things were vague, I kept on. If things had been defined, I could have said yes or no.
One of the things that gets me still and is so painful is that I wanted so much to honor Christ with how I did things. I tried to explain myself, keep communications clear and if I thought there was a misunderstanding, go and clear it up. I tried to be gracious and loving.
Eventually, I thought we had something to start with, and an approved plan. However, then for several weeks there was no signal to get started. I finally asked and was told to wait because something else was planned first. I said, OK, and waited, but nothing ever happened.
At this point I was getting angry. Meanwhile, I heard some bad news about a health problem that I have long struggled with trusting God about (this is my hearing, but I won’t digress into that right now). I and my husband did some talking with the leaders about both issues, thought they would support me in my struggle and we would move forward with the work as I was able.
Well, I was wrong. A few weeks passed and I said I was ready to go forward (I realized later I should have just said I can’t). I actually apologized for taking a while to get back, but I was told that was OK, because it gave the leaders time to do some more thinking.
I waited some more for the word to go. Meanwhile, the struggle over my health continued. I think one reason it came back up is I remember the pastor praying for me once during church, but that was the only spiritual support I remember receiving from the leaders for several months. I was told later that they had been praying for me amongst themselves, but I didn’t know that and no one was talking with me about anything.
Meanwhile, we began going to a small group. The drive had been a factor hindering us, but I felt I needed support so much, we decided to start going. We were there several weeks and I was beginning to feel at home when it was announced the group was splitting. This was done without any discussion or prayer together to have the group seek God over the matter. This really hit hard and felt like the rug was pulled out from under me. Not only me, but another woman burst into tears. One of the leaders wives knew I was upset and said she would see if we could be included in their group.
I’ve been in many small groups over the years. I know that they sometimes grow and sometimes have to change, however, I’d never seen a decision made and announced so baldly to a group.
I don’t know if this makes sense to all of you, but here I was having poured out my heart into a ministry that was not going anywhere, receiving no communication about it or support for my own difficulties, and then having what support I did know taken away arbitrarily without any thinking (it seemed to me) for how the decision would impact the group.
I emailed the elders and told them I didn’t know if I could work with them anymore because they didn’t communicate with me and I felt I’d been dropped in pastoral care. The pastor came to see us and the first thing I remember him saying was that my email really stung. I see now that even then, their (or his) first consideration was how they felt and not how I was doing. He told me they had three or four things to communicate to me. We never got to them because I sidetracked the discussion. I told him that not one of them had asked me how I was doing spiritually. I cried and he finally seemed to get it and asked me how I was doing. I discussed my struggles over my health.
Once again, I thought OK, we’ll put this behind us and go from here. The leaders said we could go with the group we wanted and I thought things would get better.
They did, briefly, and then things melted down again. More on that later. I have to take a break time-wise and I’m also getting to some painful stuff.
Thank you for reading, caring and praying.
I want to add that the time span of the events above was over a year. It went on a long, long time.
INC,
Thanks for posting your story here… please take all the time you need to finish. It’s hard to bring back those painful memories, but it does get better!
Praying for you, for your health and healing… healing in all aspects of your life!
Juli and Ellie,
Aw, you guys are going to make this little tweety bird teary. Hugs back!
INC,
I had to tell my story in parts, as well. It was too painful to put out all at once. Like Carole encouraged, take your time!
Inc,
When I left my Sovereign Grace Church, after months of doing nothing, I walked into another ministry and wept. I cried because there was a ministry I asked about for years at my sovereing grace church, that was always put on the back burner. Excuse after excuse year after year, they never heard what God put on my heart. It is pleasant to be free….I am praying for you. Take your time.
Hey INC,
Read the beginning of your story. Still praying…
Jim and Carole,
Praying for you especially right now. Saw your note above about your work load and increased time needed here. If there is anything more I can do, let me know. Otherwise, I’ll pray to be used like the Israelites who held up the arms of Moses.
Charlie,
It’s good to hear from someone else who’s been there.
I felt rejected in my gifts and strengths and abandoned in my needs and weaknesses. So I pretty much felt despised and rejected, period. After I thought those words, I then thought of Isaiah 53, and that Jesus knows how I have felt because He was also despised and rejected.
I continue to appreciate the care, encouragement and prayers of all of you!
I just saw this random quote at the top,
— Greg
I haven’t read all the stories, but from what I do know, that statement really hits the nail on the head.
Just a note…
I was visitng my old SG church this past fall (again, have been in SGM since 1990 and still go to one) when I ran into a man on staff there. He asked how my husband was doing and he said it so jovial I thought, “There is no way he knows about what happened…”….I stumbled and asked, “_________, DId you not know that __________ waked away from me, the children and the church (he was a part time pastor)?’. He was horrified and didnt know what to say. I was able to encourage him about what God had been doing in my lief and how great the Love of our Father is. I left and went to my old youth group leaders house. I was incredulous that this person didnt know. You guys need to understand, that so many people know me and my ex, i had even been out there the year before when my husband had just filed. People know me in this church and keep up so to speak. So, I brought it up to my old leader’s wife, how I was just shocked he didnt know. Her response…”thats a testimony we dont gossip in our church!”. Well , I wasnt sure why that bugged me but it did. As soon as I got in the car, I knew waht bothered me….and I was righteously angry! Are you kidding…this is a testimony??? How about a testimony of caring for eacothers burdens…of praying for eachother. I am ashamed to say, I use to have the same attitude. How can we serve if we do not KNOW? HOw can we pray if we do not KNOW? How can we hold eachother accountable if we do not KNOW? I emailed her and challenged that statement. Dont you think poeple in a hurting situation would much rather hear, “We heard what happened and want you to know we have been our knees for you…” rather than “we dont talk because we believe in the testimony of not gossiping??!! WHat in the world??!! Are you kidding??? Now, dont hear what I am not saying…I am not talking about going just to spread the news…I am talking about, “have you heard what is happening with __________ and _________, they really need our prayers…how do you think we can encourage or support them? WHich one do you think is and example of CHrist??? Which one is loving the person as they should be loved. It was the most horrible thing to be left “alone” in fear that I wasnt protecting my husband or slandering him….keep in mind he turned his back on us (me and the 4 children) and I was corrected for telling my closest friends! Still had to go to church, got corrected for not going to organized functions (i felt as was lying as no one in leadership was talking and no one knew about my husband). THey kept telling me I wasnt lying but protecting my husband…..GIVE ME A BREAK….it is the same crap as GOSSIP. CONTROL, CONTROL,CONTROL! It is NOT gossip to speak the truth and it is not SLANDER to stand for truth….Can I please get an AMEN?!
journeygirltruth@hotmail.com
JG,
I’m so sorry! To not only get slapped by your husband, who I’m sure you loved and trusted, but to turn to those in the church, your spiritual family, who you loved and trusted, and get slapped again…
INEXCUSABLE!!!
What a testimony of God’s love and faithfulness, that you were able to encourage that man, and, I’m sure, so many others, while going through this ordeal!
Journey Girl,
That kind of thinking you were faced with is so convoluted. Expressing concern and compassion is not gossip. I am so sorry that you went through that and I’m glad the God has brought you to a better place.
Jim, I also have given up hope of any reform in SGM. I do not believe it will ever happen. From the beginning of Kris’ blog, I was one of the few who openly stated that I see SGM as a cult. I still do. I still, from time to time, feel guilty and hugely regretful for staying as long as we did; we were only there a little over 5 yrs, but they were crucial yrs in the lives of our sons (not so much so for our daughters, who were younger). And I feel this way to a huge extent because we KNEW that something wasn’t right, even when we couldn’t put our fingers on what specifically it was.
I go through weeks where SGM doesn’t cross my mind (thankfully!). We are in a good place now, spiritually, and have found a church w/a godly pastor. But sometimes paths cross or events happen and the wound is ripped right open. This past weekend I was out w/some friends, one of whom still goes to our former SGM church. A family from that church came into the restaurant and made a big deal of coming over and hugging my friend, while blatantly ignoring my hello. A day later was the wedding of a child of one of my closest friends..not just at the SGM church, but outside the church as well…a wedding that I was told I would be invited to, but I was not, even though I was told that it didn’t matter that I was no longer at the church. This hurt me far more than being ignored in the restaurant. So….here I am, checking in on the blog, reminding myself that we are not alone.
Praying for each of you, and grateful for this refuge.
Continuing my story:
This will be a long convoluted mess. I apologize for not cleaning it up into a neat summary, but I just don’t have the energy. Again, I want to clarify as I said above that this did not take place within SGM. Our church had used some of their material. Following links led me to this blog. I do not want to detract from the purpose of the blog here, but I have felt so raw that I appreciate the chance to share.
As the pastor was leaving that day he told me to call him in a few days and we would continue the conversation to cover the items he hadn’t mentioned.
The next week I called. I remember discussing those who would be on the ministry team. The church leaders had changed some of the names that had been previously approved. I asked why (in a nice way) and was told in one case some relational problems (I can’t remember exactly how it was phrased) and in one case some doctrinal things that were being worked out. The relational stuff appeared to be something confidential that I thought was none of my business so I didn’t ask. The doctrine issue I did ask about because I knew the pastor and I already differed in one area. I was just trying to clear the decks and be straightforward. It was not that area, but the conversation veered off into discussion about the issue. (This was something about which Bible believing Christians differ).
I felt I was stumbling around in my words and the pastor finally asked me to email him. I worked on a long email and sent it. I closed by saying I had some more thoughts. The pastor told me that he’d received my email and about a week or so later I continued my thinking with further explanation using some quotes from men I knew he respected.
Again, silence. Several weeks pass. At some point an announcement is made that there will be a meeting for those involved in all aspects of ministry. This was news to me and I wondered what was going on in the area I’d worked on. I asked my husband to find out because I felt like I just couldn’t get through anymore. I honestly can’t remember the details of his meeting because everything seemed so muddled up by now.
We received an invitation to the meeting and the pastor called. He told me that one of the others who’d been involved in the discussion of the ministry I had worked on would be leading the group. (I forgot to mention earlier that months before I’d been asked to lead). This seemed like an arbitrary, hurtful decision to me. I told him I was hurt by it.
He proceeded to get angry at me, raising his voice and throwing statements at my head that were retaliatory and wounding. I was stunned and in shock and started to shake and cry. I’d never had a pastor speak to me that way in my life. I don’t even remember how the conversation ended.
My husband and I discussed it—I was distraught. After emailing an elder we set up a meeting with the pastor, elder, my husband and myself. This led to an excruciatingly painful meeting in which I felt the pastor by his body language was ready to pounce on me. I went back into detail about how the entire talk—silence—ask—silence—confront—silence, etc., scenario had gone. At some point it was stated that because of my health they felt it would be better for me not to be the leader and the ministry would just start from scratch at the upcoming leadership meeting and those involved would decide on the ministry leadership team. (I believe it was that evening although it could have been when my husband talked with the pastor. I’m sorry to be so muddled, but the pattern of communication had been so vague.) Regret was expressed on part of the pastor for the past (as I remember, boy, do I always feel I have to qualify things. This kind of communication makes you feel like you doubt your own mind). I expressed forgiveness, although I did feel slightly cornered and that things still were not resolved deep down. Both leaders stated they wanted me in leadership.
I went to the meeting although I really didn’t want to go. The discussion of our group lagged until I mentioned something that I thought summarized a need and then things sparked off and I thought we would get somewhere. No leaders were chosen by our group.
Well, next thing that happened. The person who led the group started sending out emails asking for input. I gave input, sending many things I’d already worked on. More silence.
We’re now over 18 months down the road from when this started. A woman with a heart for this ministry called me to ask if I knew who was on this particular ministry team. I said no. She said an announcement had been made at church that the team would meet and that those involved knew who they were. She was upset and I hit the ceiling.
She brought it up at her small group that night. Two of the church leaders were there. It was implied by the careful phrase, “I believe ____ has been communicated with and I will not comment further.” Well, I had not been and they knew that, but the phrasing allowed wiggle room. I think she did catch some flak for bringing this up, but her husband defends her.
More emails and the elders wanted a meeting with us and others they’d invited. It was to have a set agenda in which we couldn’t discuss freely. My husband said it sounded like a “you talk, we listen” kind of meeting, and said no. They backed off on that and asked just him to come meet just with them with no set agenda. He did. Some things were resolved and some were not because I was not there to clarify and/or correct some things. Some things like my email saying I couldn’t work with them anymore were used as a reason to keep me off the team as well as an answer the pastor didn’t like to a question he put to me. They sent a message that was something to the effect that they would bring me in later to help, but they wanted a “season of peace” and they did not want me to communicate with them about this for a while. At some point I was also told that the things I’d written and sent were not helpful to the pastor.
I didn’t feel too peaceful. I felt locked in a box and pushed aside. No parameters were given regarding the season of peace. I thought things I’d said had been misinterpreted. At this point I stopped attending church and we stopped going to the small group. I could not face these men anymore. I thought that I had been continually jerked around and treated without compassion.
I discussed this with a few friends and they were compassionate and gave me needed insight. I was also reading about abusive and authoritarian churches and it was very helpful in understanding the dynamics. My wounds were raw and bleeding, but I was beginning to grasp the themes and patterns.
One of the leaders wanted us to meet with two leaders and wives. I suppose this happened because I wasn’t seen for a while. We were highly skeptical of this and said we would meet if we could bring some friends in the church. They said, yes, but they decided at some point to make the group bigger. The day before the meeting my husband was informed of two more couples who would come. He objected, but we were told it was not negotiable. At this point I thought this isn’t going to work, but I thought maybe if I just go and talk, enough people will hear and things will change. The night of the meeting we found all the leaders there as well as a wife we weren’t expecting. All in all about sixteen people there I think. I was told the leaders would speak for a time limit, then I could speak, then there would be questions. My husband told the one who contacted us that this sounded like a debate. My husband said I didn’t have to go, but I thought, perhaps, this will change things.
I’ll get to the final meeting in the next day or so.
Thank you for reading, caring and praying.
Jim said, ”
Those who have been here a while know that my hope was to see reform within SGM. We called ourselves a pro-sgm site.”
Jim, I understand. I hoped for years after I left SGM. It took me a long time to accept that things probably would not change. It is a very hard matter to accept. I still wish it would, but am more realistic now, not really expecting it to though would be glad if it did. You were in the pocket of the monster for a long time. Why wouldn’t you come to love it and hope the best for it? Sadly, it probably won’t happen like many of us dreamed. Hearing other people’s stories confirmed that the problem truly is systemic. Don’t know how anyone becomes “cured” of that.
INC said, “I later realized that lack of gratitude and communication was not just a one time occurrence but typical.”
Can someone say, “Amen!”?
canary, i didn’t want you to feel pressured to stick around, in case you just wanted to pop in now and again, but i have to say, seeing you here so much, makes me smile. welcome home.
JG said, “As soon as I got in the car, I knew waht bothered me….and I was righteously angry! Are you kidding…this is a testimony??? How about a testimony of caring for eacothers burdens…of praying for eachother. I am ashamed to say, I use to have the same attitude. How can we serve if we do not KNOW? HOw can we pray if we do not KNOW? How can we hold eachother accountable if we do not KNOW?”
But Journey Girl, do you not know? Have you not heard?
It is not about you. It is not about your children. It is not about your ex. It is about SGM and its glory.
Wish I could say I was joking.
“THey kept telling me I wasnt lying but protecting my husband…..GIVE ME A BREAK….it is the same crap as GOSSIP. CONTROL, CONTROL,CONTROL! It is NOT gossip to speak the truth and it is not SLANDER to stand for truth….Can I please get an AMEN?!”
JG-AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Patty, how painful! both situations sound like they would hurt a heck of a whole lot. Wish we could all meet for some much needed hugs.
stunned
but grateful for the support i’ve found here
JG,
That is insane!! You weren’t supposed to tell anyone???
Patty,
I wish I could give you a hug! How can these people stand themselves when they hurt people like that??
INC, I can hear the pain in your voice. That is NOT a good feeling. I’m sorry to hear that you were so unappreciated. You must have felt used by that time.
You mentioned, “Again, I want to clarify as I said above that this did not take place within SGM”. I couldn’t help but think, “That makes sense. Because there is no way an SGM church would have asked a woman for so much input, let alone any leadership on a ministry team they deemed important enough to bother themselves with.”
So sorry you went through this.
Stunned
Stunned,
From everything I’ve read it seems that while the church denomination may be different, the patterns of spiritual abuse are the same.
I should say that this was in women’s ministry so you’d know why I was able to give so much input.
{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{ INC }}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}} <—- hugs
Stunned,
Thanks for hearing my pain. It was, still is, pretty bad. While the whole thing was going on, I started to feel I was in a mudhole I couldn’t get out of, no matter how hard I tried. I kept expecting a normal response of let’s work things out. Instead, as soon as I started really speaking up, things started spiraling down. I didn’t want to be belligerant, but there were problems that needed to be dealt with and I wasn’t going to sweep them under the rug.
Thanks, Ellie.
You’re going to make me cry (good tears because you care).
We’re going to another church now where the pastor knows some of the story. I feel I have to take it slow.
It helps so much to talk with those who seen this. When you’ve gone through the wringer of trying to deal with stuff like this with leadership you trusted, you know all the range of feelings of shock, disbelief, doubt, betrayal…
At least the pastor (I can’t remember what the others knew) had heard from me about my dad. I had opened my heart about things I struggled with. Then to be turned on–it was just incredible.
Dear INC,
Yes! Very similar in deed! Of course, I couldn’t help but smile when I came to the part that said it was women’s ministry! Why wasn’t I thinking? A controlling ministry like that probably would not allow a woman to “mess things up” in “regular” ministry.
I can only guess at your pain as it sounds so familiar to what many of have felt. I am soooo glad you have joined our group here, where I hope you’ll feel as welcomed and cared for, whether your church was an SGM or not. The last thing you need to do is feel alone after all you’ve been through.
There are some amazing people here. I hope we point you to Jesus and you get much healing here.
I don’t blame you for taking it slow. I have taken it super-slow. No rush for me, in spite of the longing to be part of a group of believers again. I have been going to the same church for the past 2 years. Love my home group. But have yet to become a member. Who knows when I’ll ever be ready to trust like that again.
“I kept expecting a normal response of let’s work things out.”
That is part of the crazy making about it. You expect normalcy so you just can barely understand what it is they are saying when anything but normal comes out of their mouths. You then end up questioning a thousand things about yourself. They seem so normal after all. There must be something wrong with me.
That is a horrible way of thinking. It’s a terrible way to have to live.
Praise God for freedom in Him!
Thank you, Stunned and Ellie….It sure would be great if we could all meet in person and give each other hugs and support that way, wouldn’t it?! My son and I were chatting on facebook the other night and saying, gee, our stuff is so much less than what others have gone through, both in longevity and severity. But it’s our pain, you know? Even so, it drives us to continue to speak the truth about SGM and to defend those hurt by SGM (a growing number, it seems) and to pray. Trutbfully, I no longer pray for change within SGM. I just don’t see that happening. Instead, I pray that those who can, will flee and be free.
INC–
Like you, our weird situation did not come from a SGM church, but from the church right across the street, LOL. Perhaps it is in the water?
I know the feeling of shock–just sitting there watching the mouths move, and unable to figure out what the heck they are trying to say.
Then, you look around and realize some people won’t meet your eyes. They are the ones that talked when the elders called.
Weird.
Jesus is our hope, not pastors, friends, elders, denominations. He is the one who will not let us down. He loves his Bride, the church, and will perfect her in eternity!
JG and INC,
I have said this before and I’m saying it again, I really honestly wanted my story to be unique, I didn’t want others to suffer the way my family and I suffered, but, alas, my story is but one in a pattern of similar tales.
I am so sorry that you have been disrespected at the hands of people whose calling is to care for God’s people.
“My son and I were chatting on facebook the other night and saying, gee, our stuff is so much less than what others have gone through, both in longevity and severity. But it’s our pain, you know?”
Patty, exinterns mom- I’m so glad you said that! It’s so easy for us to compare our pain with someone else’s and think that we have no right to feel what we feel. But we can’t say our pain doesn’t count because it’s not as bad as some one else’s or their pain doesn’t count because it’s not as bad as ours. It’s all real. It’s all true. Like my best friend once said when I had the cold audacity to question someone’s pain, ‘If it’s the worst thing they have ever felt, it doesn’t matter if it would be nothing to you. It’s still the worst thing they have ever felt.” She was right. I was humbled. (As you can tell, it didn’t last for long.)
RT said, “Like you, our weird situation did not come from a SGM church, but from the church right across the street, LOL. Perhaps it is in the water?”
heeeeeeee. (now that was a real smile you gave me! Thanks.)
“Then, you look around and realize some people won’t meet your eyes. They are the ones that talked when the elders called.”
Oh, RT, ouch! That had to have been painful. Yuck. I guess I should be glad that at least that had SOME conscience as opposed to those who had been proud of the “tattling”. Nonetheless, what a betrayal. What pain. I’m glad you’re here to share your life with us. I have benefited. Thank you.
DB said, “I really honestly wanted my story to be unique, I didn’t want others to suffer the way my family and I suffered”
Ditto, Sister. How I WISH I were the only one and this were just some abberant SGM situation or some “crazy” pastor, the only one among the bunch. Not a pattern.
Sad.
Yet joy comes after a night of morning. Please, God, allow your light to break forth and the early morning dawn to come!
Ditto and amen.
“yet joy comes after a night of morning.”
what the heck was I trying to say? idiot.
i think i meant to say, after a night of darkness. or something more brilliant. if you can think of anything better, please fill in the blank and credit it to me.
Yeah, Stunned one bad rogue pastor, but it seems much more widespread and characteristic.
Sigh.
“weeping may endure for the night, but joy, joy comes in the morning”
Stunned,
Stunned, exactly. I have a dear friend who falls apart over trials that seem quite small to me, in that what I have gone through in my lifetime has been huge next to her trials. (she is in agreement w/this) But I have always assured her that pain is relative….and her pain is as real to her as mine has been to me. We are called to share that pain, to help each other through it, regardless of the ‘degree’ of suffering.
Unless of course you are SGM pastors, in which case you are free to only judge and talk about folks’ pain behind their backs.
There is so much JOY in finding and following Jesus Christ, having left all the leaven behind. SO MUCH JOY!!!
INC,
I have always felt that this goes way beyond SGM. I have seen even worse situations in other organizations. My brother-in-law is in one where Starr Scott leads. The control is much worse than SGM, if you can imagine. Fortunately, people are leaving by the numbers. The Washington Post did a story on Scott’s church, which is quite amazing.
When Paul spoke of the the leaven of the Pharisees and it being “another gospel”, he was talking about the same things we are posting today. It is nothing new. Yet, it should be treated with the same ferocity that Paul treated it with. His heart was to see the gospel of Jesus Christ preached fully, in grace. Some church leaders cannot preach this true grace because they say they fear that the members will “sin all the more!” As Paul wrote, “May this never be!” If you are walking with Jesus, having laid down your life to follow Him, you marvel at the grace and forgiveness He offers. You love Him more. You sin less. That’s the way it works. If grace leads someone to sin more, they are not of Christ in the first place.
Leaders won’t preach this because they will loose “control”.
Also, I have to add that, during our “exit meeting” (my husband and I – we were quite surprised to graciously be shown the door – we were only interested in having some questions answered. What a shock!) – anyway, during our exit meeting, we saw anger in the Pastors we thought loved us. That was so surprising! However, upon realizing that these men really did not love us, we were suddenly free of them. We were no longer obligated to be “under” their authority.
INC, I want to encourage you in this. These pastors, if they did not walk in the love of Christ towards you, were not truly your pastors. I could go as far as to say that our pastors were “false shepherds”. They were not interested in watching over our souls as much as keeping us in check (these kinds of leaders hate “messes”). So, if your situation is similar, where the leaders showed no true care for your soul, then they were not your true pastors. You are free!
Jesus is your true Shepherd. Allow Him to comfort and care for your soul. If you like to read, there is a book called, “A Shepherd Looks at Psalm 23″. I forget the author’s name. I was so helped by it! The Lord bless and keep you.
“i think i meant to say, after a night of darkness. or something more brilliant. if you can think of anything better, please fill in the blank and credit it to me. ”
were you thinking of Psalm 30:5?
“…weeping may last for the night, but a shout of joy comes in the morning.”
Canary,
What a beautiful letter. And so true.
I was as stunned as you when we were invited to find another church, just a week after going in to simply meet with the pastors over some problems we were seeing. Being asked to leave was the last thing on our minds.
But instead, God wanted to grant us freedom and a chance to see the light. And He did.
Yes, acme and Juli! I think that was it. And since it’s in the scriptures, we better make sure we give the credit to God.
Thanks for your encouraging words, all of you.
Stunned, you’re right, it is crazy making when you’re expecting normalcy.
“You then end up questioning a thousand things about yourself. They seem so normal after all. There must be something wrong with me.”
That is so true. It’s like trying to see through a fog and nail jello to the wall.
Canary, I really need to realize anew that Jesus is the true shepherd of my soul. I am still just so numb.
In Ken Blue’s book he likens modern day church leaders who abuse to the Pharisees and draws a lot of points in his book from the gospels. One thing he said was that of all the injustices in the world to speak about, Jesus zeroed in on the spiritual abuse of the Pharisees. It damages people’s relationship with God.
Stunned & Canary, both of you mentioned just wanted to ask some questions and instead were shown the door. It shows there was such a need there to control and prevent any kind of questioning.
That’s one thing (among many!) that got me, but it was a biggie. The reaction just seemed so disproportionate. You would have thought that I’d been spouting heresy or in flagrant immorality, but I was objecting to the way I had been treated. I hit the sore spot, as did you.
INC,
I understand the numbness. It is something God has given you to protect your heart. Sort of like when someone gets seriously injured, they cannot at first feel pain. Don’t fear what comes after the numbness. The Lord will be there and give you everything you need. The experience of freedom is just too hard to describe!
Yes, when the “sore spot” is hit, the controllers react. They do not want to clean up any messes. You see, if you are having questions, those questions might spread. So, in order to contain the situation, well, there’s the door, don’t let it hit you on the way out.
As for this blog – we’ve questioned and spoken out about our experiences. This mess is too big to dispose of in secret. It must be done out in the open. We have, so to speak, nailed the “99 Thesis” to the door, and too many folks have read it. The cover-up can’t work anymore.
INC, one more thing: In the book, “A Shepherd Looks at Psalm 23″, the author speaks of when a sheep gets cast down. This means that a sheep falls over and cannot get back up. If left like this, the sheep will die. Who comes along to help but the loving Shepherd! He is watching each sheep, and sees the one who is cast down. He picks the sheep up, fluffs its coat, and speaks lovingly to it, before urging it forward to join the rest of the flock. The Good Shepherd will never let a sheep of His remain cast down! That is what David means in the psalms when he speaks of his own soul being cast down. He was a shepherd once, and understood.
So have hope. Your Good Shepherd will find you and lift you once again to your feet! You can count on it!
Stunned,
Imagine our surprise when we were continually told that “maybe our vision no longer matched those of the leaders”. In other words, if you don’t like how we do things, you are free to leave.
So we left, and have had no regrets on that score…:)
One thing that happened in the above phone conversation when the pastor got angry with me was that when I told him I was hurt, he retaliated by saying I had hurt ______. This was news to me as I thought that relationship was fine. I went to that person later and found that everything was OK. She had talked with him after one meeting, but whatever happened she’d worked through (she didn’t even bring up to me what it was).
Oh, Canary,
I feel so cast down.
OK, here’s more of the mess.
Meeting Time:
So I wrote down what I wanted to say. I worked hours on it and I actually practiced it out loud because I expected to be cut off at the time limit (is that sad, or what?).
We went to the meeting and as I said above there were people there we weren’t expecting. On the wall was something else I wasn’t expecting: a chart that outlined dates of meetings and conversations. I was kind of stunned to see that.
There was prayer and people were invited to share Bible verses. This was kind of hard to sit through. One guy read the verse from Hebrews about not neglecting to meet together. I didn’t know if he was clueless about what was going on or if he was trying to rebuke me, but it was insensitive to say the least.
One of the leaders proceeded to go down the chart. I can’t tell you how surprised I was. I thought it was just circle the wagons to outline what they’d done and how I was wrong. Because I didn’t know the chart would be there, I had no calendar with me, but I am convinced the Lord brought things to mind and I did do some correcting of dates and events. Some things that had already been corrected previously at the meeting with the pastor, elder, my husband and myself were presented incorrectly once more. (That surprised me also). Again, I had to say no, that’s not the way it happened or explain my perception.
Then I read my statement. I went over my work, events and the way I was treated. I also tried to get at what I saw were root problems (my reading and prayer helped me greatly with this). I mentioned (I’m going to explain these, because as I’ve said before the circumstances are different for us, but do I ever see that the themes are the same):
1. Communication. That it ought to be clear without nuance or duplicity, and done in patience and long-suffering, with self-examination and asking how can this be done better. There shouldn’t be rudeness or dismissing disagreements or ideas as personal criticism. I also spoke of the lack of straightforward and open communication. I also asked how could we learn to not be defensive but to be humble and compassionate in communication when it wasn’t modeled by leaders. I also suggested more open group communication and not talking to individuals in isolation so we could all hear each others thoughts.
2. Ministry & Control. There was tight control and there appeared to be no way to offer ideas for improvement or to state something needs to be changed without it being taken it as a personal affront. I said there needed to be a serious commitment to welcoming contributions of every believer.
3. Relationships. I mentioned communication again and empathy because communication involves empathy and adjusting to understand others’ perspective.
I also asked for an apology and said it was hard for us to believe they couldn’t bring themselves to express regret to me over how things
I was living dangerously, wasn’t I? I can’t believe looking back, that I had the courage to say this.
Now at some point along here I was interrupted and asked if I was almost done because my time was over. I just sat there for a second, so surprised he would interrupt me and said I’m almost done.
I went on:
4. Leadership. I stated that leadership should be servant-leadership—not the lording over of God’s people. Leading should be done by character, service, prayer and persuasion rather than by fiat and unquestionable decree. The leaders should be the first ones to pursue reconciliation with graciousness, longsuffering and love. I mentioned the lack of reasonableness and the defensiveness I had seen.
I went on to say that I didn’t really think I was the issue. That if things didn’t change they would end up going through this again.
I said I was trying to live in forgiveness and without bitterness, but I was speaking because there can be no reconciliation without full understanding and repentance. I closed by reading Ezekiel 34:4, and said I hoped they’d hear our concerns and change would come.
Then I think it was question time.
INC,
I can relate to you.
I wasn’t as organized as you, but when we had meetings, the agenda and outcome was already determined by the pastors and nothing we said mattered anyway.
Nice back of the hand feeling being dismissed, isn’t it?
It took me a good ten years to get over being dismembered. I’m hoping you are a faster learner than me.
INC,
[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[INC]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]
The Lord will not leave you cast down forever. He is on His way! Expect Him!
DB,
Wow, ten years. What damage was done to you! It is a back of the hand feeling.
God really helped me with the words.
It’s weird how I went into something like that, I knew God was with me and He gave me the words to say, yet here I am feeling like I’m in a free fall spiritually without a net.
It’s kind of like a sting that is slow and worse than you think, or when you cut your hand accidentally with a knife in the kitchen. All of a sudden you’re bleeding.
Over and over trying to work things out–thinking I was doing OK with all of it. Then when it was over realizing I’d been in a wreck and every bone was broken and I was bleeding and torn.
Thank you so, Canary!
I’m like the man on the pallet whose friends let him down through the roof so that Jesus could heal Him in Luke 5:18-26. When Jesus saw their faith He forgave the mans sins and healed him.
Thank you for bringing me to Jesus.
INC,
That is a good comparison to what SGMRefuge and SGMSurvivors do. We help bring people to Jesus who are too hurt and tired to move forward. Thank you Jim, Carole, Kris, and Guy!
Canary,
Thank you for reminding me that David was a shepherd: “That is what David means in the psalms when he speaks of his own soul being cast down. He was a shepherd once, and understood.”
I was just looking at some of Psalms 42 & 43 last night and right now.
Why art thou cast down, O my soul? and why art thou disquieted in me? hope thou in God: for I shall yet praise him for the help of his countenance.
O my God, my soul is cast down within me: therefore will I remember thee from the land of Jordan, and of the Hermonites, from the hill Mizar.
Why art thou cast down, O my soul? and why art thou disquieted within me? hope thou in God: for I shall yet praise him, who is the health of my countenance, and my God.
Why art thou cast down, O my soul? and why art thou disquieted within me? hope in God: for I shall yet praise him, who is the health of my countenance, and my God.
I also want to say thank you to for the ministry here and at Survivors as they help battered sheep heal.
INC,
Excellent verses. I’ve been a bit “cast down” today, and those verses inspired me to look up. See? Through your own pain, you are all ready helping someone here!
I just heard a country song with the chorus that goes like this: “Everything goes, when everything’s gone!” Ahhh, good old country music sometimes hits it right on the nail. That is how some of us felt upon leaving the beloved of SGM/PDI. Years upon years of relationships went up in smoke because of shunning. Then the fear, depression, hoplessness, health issues…those are just some of the “everything goes” part of leaving a controlling church. Now, stay with me. This is going to get positive…
What we leave behind is nowhere near as wonderful as what we find in Jesus Christ. When the leaven is removed, when we recognize the legalism and control for what it was, oh, the beauty, the wonder of seeing what Jesus really did for us! Who He really is! The glory of understanding that HE desires US to ENJOY Him. Can you imagine? I sincerely believe that even a bit of the leaven of the Pharisees can blind us to the fullness of knowing Jesus completely, understanding the Father, and embracing the Holy Spirit, our comforter, whom Jesus left behind for us.
So INC, be free. Rejoice! What you will find ahead of you will far outweigh anything you have left behind. You might not see this, yet. You will. And we are all here to help you along the way.
Gotta run. My family and I are going out to have some much needed fun. Back in a while!
canary,
I’m so glad those verses helped you.
*See* you later.
INC,
Ah yes, your meeting sounds so very familiar. My husband and I went in to our meeting prepared to share our hearts about a confrontation we had had with our pastor and were met with a similar scenario. There was the pastor, the church administrator, and several other home group leaders. Though we were ready to offer Scripture to support our view and follow all of THEIR prescribed ways of bringing correction, the meeting took a different turn right from the start. Out came the legal pad with all of the pastor’s notes on where WE needed correction. This nightmare went on for HOURS- with my husband trying to defend himself and get back to the point of the meeting and with them methodically going through the list of corrections.
When I try to describe it now, I think of C.S. Lewis’ book “The Silver Chair.” In it the good guys meet up with the bad guys (the witch) in her underground city. They come to challenge her and free the true prince from her grasp, but she begins to cast her spell, bewitching them into forgetting their quest and everything involved with their lives above ground. Progressively, they go from being defiant, to being confused and then to being in agreement with her. “There is no sun. There never was a sun.”
This example might seem a little dramatic, but there are some definite parallels. By the end of our meeting, we were very confused. As days went by and the smoke cleared, we realized that nothing they said had any teeth to it Scripturally and we said so. Like DB, we were dismembered and discredited by them to many of our friends. Just one more story among the many.
So we here understand being cast down! Yes and Amen to the Scriptures you posted and to canary’s excerpts from A Shepherd Looks at Psalm 23 (love that book). Another good one is 2 Cor. 4:9
“But we have this treasure in clay jars to show that its extraordinary power comes from God and not from us. In every way we’re troubled but not crushed, frustrated but not in despair, persecuted but not abandoned, struck down (cast down) but not destroyed.”
The treasure of the Spirit of the Lord Jesus Christ within you will give you the grace and power you need to make it through victoriously. Sure, at times we may be cast down, but, relying on God’s power, we will not be destroyed. You will not be destroyed!
Hi Gracie,
I love The Silver Chair. It’s one of my favorites from The Chronicles of Narnia and I know well the scene you’re talking about.
It’s just incredible to me how pervasive this is.
Thanks for reminding me I may be cast down, but I won’t be destroyed.
Canary & Gracie,
The NASB translates Psalm 42:5:
Why are you in despair, O my soul?
And why have you become disturbed within me?
Hope in God, for I shall again praise Him
For the help of His presence.
When I first became a Christian one of the most wonderful things that happened was knowing His presence there with me. I had wanted to know God better for so long. I knew the witness of the Holy Spirit to my heart that I was God’s child and I could cry, Abba, Father. It was so unexpected and so wonderful.
One of the hardest things to handle has been the doubt of my relationship with God. From reading here I see that others have been through the same thing. I wrote Carole and told her that sometimes I wonder if I’ll know God’s presence again—that beyond a shadow of a doubt He is there and real and loves me.
Meanwhile, I’ll ask Him to enable me to hope in Him, and the promise that “I shall again praise Him for the help of His presence.”
I’m going to try to finish this, just to get it out.
I think maybe I started feeling numb during the last meeting. I was “stunned” to see all the people there. (Good name, Stunned, BTW! ) I was “stunned” to see the chart on the wall. I was “stunned” to hear the dates gone over.
I think it was also harmful to me that I felt I had to read my statement so hurriedly. I was speaking about things that had affected me deeply, but as I read my uppermost thought was I have to get through this and just read. I’ve decided that kind of emotional disconnect to words that are giving voice to pain and injustice is really, really damaging.
I was also still in “stun” during the Q & A time. I felt like I was on trial (I was and one of my friends said it seemed like a trial). I had to continue to explain and correct. I felt things were slanted to paint the picture of me they either saw or wanted others to see, but it wasn’t me. At one point the pastor said a conversation with me started to disintegrate as conversations with me tended to do. I did feel anger then and said to him that was not true. I think he knew that. That conversation had already been gone over at a previous meeting.
God was truly faithful and gave me words to answer. I have wondered if they were surprised at my statement and weren’t expecting me to be able to think on my feet. My husband and I have both guessed the number of people there was meant to intimidate us into backing off.
There are only two things I remember that I wished I had said. One was that the conversation in which the pastor got angry with me and raised his voice was described as him telling me not to cry. That gave a false impression and I thought about addressing that. However, later one person in the group said it was turning into a he said, she said discussion and I thought maybe I should not say anything. I was also confused about, OK, I forgave him for those words, but now they’re slanting what happened, is it wrong for me to bring it up? Now, I wish that I had.
Another thing I thought of after the meeting was in regards to the time I was accused of gossiping; by a woman there (See the Concerned? thread). I wish that I’d said that the leaders had told me they didn’t want me any communication from me and left me isolated and hurting. In that private email exchange I thought the woman who asked was concerned about my pain.
After I was accused of gossiping, another woman (who I had not known would be there) jumped in and said some things. I was feeling kind of assaulted. Both women were upset about time taken away from families, upset people, etc. Evidently there had been questions raised due to our absence. The woman who accused me of gossiping had been a close friend and I was especially hurt by her remarks. At some point my husband mentioned there were people there we didn’t expect and she replied that we had invited people. (We had asked three whom the leaders knew were coming).
Tension came and went. My husband got angry at one point, he also jumped in to defend me from the gossip charge and put in other comments along the way.
At one point I was asked what I would do the next time the leaders did something I didn’t agree with (this was not asked by a leader, but by someone they respected). I can’t remember what I said, but I was afraid of seeming argumentative. I wished I’d said something like it depends on what it is.
Finally, it seemed they had nothing to say. They still hadn’t apologized. I said that we’d been talking and talking and still no one had expressed regret that I’d been hurt. I think the conversation went off for a bit and then I think I said it again. The pastor finally said he was sorry I’d been hurt and he wouldn’t have done anything to deliberately hurt me. He did say that he wanted to make sure I understood that there were no plans to put me into ministry leadership. One of the other leaders seemed genuinely broken. He was almost at the point of tears of asking us not to leave. The remaining leaders did not say anything.
I sat there—you guessed it—feeling numb. I expressed forgiveness. I thanked him and told him afterwards I appreciated what he said and thought he was genuine. It did bother me later that he would say he wouldn’t do anything deliberately to hurt me, because I wondered didn’t he know how I would feel from his actions. With the other leader I felt I couldn’t make any promises.
As a friend described it, the meeting was excruciating. We went home—again I just felt numb from all the emotional overload and disconnect.
Over the next week or so we had some painful conversations about what to do. What do we do? What does forgiveness/reconciliation look like? At first we thought about going back, but we did have time to talk and I’m so glad we did. The silence of some of the leaders bothered us. I was really touched by the leader who was the most broken. That’s when you go back and forth about what to do. Am I being loving? Should we give more chances? Will God give me opportunities to start over if I deny that to other Christians? Thoughts can sure be squirrels in cages that go round and round in fear and anxiety.
However, it dawned on us that nothing had been said about changing the way the leaders did things. (See my comment above when I read to them four things I thought were the heart of the problem). This may be obvious when you’re reading this, but it took over a week for us to see it. It was also kind of weird that the pastor said there were no plans to put me back in as a ministry leader. I wanted a rest by then, but it was still kind of a preemptive this is the way it will be statement. We finally realized that if we went back, we’d end up hitting our head against a brick wall again at some point.
I’m glad we took that time for the fog to clear, as Gracie mentioned. It took a while to sort things out. Otherwise, I’m afraid we might have gone back and I would have been hurt again.
We’ve never heard a word from the pastor. We did hear from the one leader who wanted us to come back and my husband s poke with him.
That’s mostly it. God was there to help me.
Now I’m in the backwash. Lost friendships and a piece of my heart torn out.
My apologies for being so lengthy. The details have been little arrows in me so that’s why I gave them.
INC,
Wow, what an experience. I’m sure that getting it out has been painful, but you will find it to be helpful after a few days.
My family and I went to see “Paul Blart, Mall Cop” tonight. It is rated PG and very clean. We laughed so hard. I would suggest everyone go out to see this movie and have a good laugh. The whole family can see it. Sometimes, we just need to laugh. I guarantee you will you wil guffaw alot at this movie! Laughter is good medicine! Goodnight all!
INC,
one of the things I love about the blogs, that is sort of an unexpected blessing, is that we can begin to finally see what the Body of Christ is SUPPOSED to do to support one another.
I thought the blogs were mainly about airing problems, and figuring out what is wrong, etc. But I’m finding that I see the Lord doing a great work in the Body known as “the Refuge” that should have been done in our churches. The Lord is good to us, isn’t He? He knows we are hurting, not trusting, and fearful many time of getting back in fellowship with other believers after such pain in our lives. Yet here is a safe place, where you don’thave to post real names, photos, locations, or anything you don’t want to, and yet, the brothers and sisters here LOVE one another and encourage one another, and EDIFY one another. How do you explain that?? It is truly the Spirit of God.
One day, I do believe the Lord will have every single one of us back in physical fellowship with believers, if not in local churches, in ministries, our workplaces, wherever. He will reconnect us to others in the Body. But until then, it’s good to be able to bear one another’s burdens, weep together, pray for one another, and make each other laugh too – stick around for the laughing parts, it always pops up at some point..
Love you, praying for you, and glad you are here!
INC, I’m so sorry. :’(
{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{ INC }}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}
INC,
I’m so glad you found this place so you could unload without fear of some yutz throwing accusations your way. (well, there may be some yutz, but we’ll freely opine in response to said yutz instead of keeping our lips firmly planted on some bigwig’s gluts.)
Anyway, I digress, Thank you for sharing your painful story. Sadly, it will be but one voice in a chorus of similar quality.
“one of the things I love about the blogs, that is sort of an unexpected blessing, is that we can begin to finally see what the Body of Christ is SUPPOSED to do to support one another.”
Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay, Juli!!!!!!
INC,
You got your story out! Good for you. I know that wasn’t pleasant.
The Scripture you shared is so true.
Hope in God, for I shall again praise Him
For the help of His presence.
You really will praise Him again.
oh my gosh, inc, i feel a little bit sick reading your account. what are these poor men so terrified of? why must they control anything? dont’ they know the king of the universe is there for them? don’t they know? can they not see? have they not heard? so sad.
btw, completely different tone than my last post but, ”
I was living dangerously, wasn’t I? I can’t believe looking back, that I had the courage to say this.”
I nearly laughed out loud when i read that! I can only imagine their shock at your very innocent and righteous question!
INC said, “It’s kind of like a sting that is slow and worse than you think, or when you cut your hand accidentally with a knife in the kitchen. All of a sudden you’re bleeding. ”
For a long time I felt like each time my heart pumped, blood would come squirting out of it instead of coursing through my veins as it ought.
INC, so sorry you lived through this all. but glad you can have a whole new level of understadning for those who are experiencing the same thing. i think you are someone who will be able to care for the hurting. and for that i am grateful to the lord. we need a lot more of those around.
stunned
yet sometimes joyful for what god is doing in his kingdom
Thank you all for the encouragement and love.
canary,
I’m so glad you had a good time at the movies. There was a comic that used to have the dad working as a mall cop and getting into hilarious situations. I’ll pass the name of this one onto my family and see if they want to go. It sounds good.
Juli,
You’re right that the Lord does a work on the web that should have been done in our churches. It is hard to share and wonder if people in a new church will understand. Here people do know what you’re talking about because they’ve been through it. God uses the web to help us reach across time and distance and know we’re not alone. I do long for physical fellowship with believers and pray that will happen. In my church in my hometown I felt that I had friends who delighted in me. Not just if I did the right thing or said something wise, but they just enjoyed being with me and I with them. We live over a three hour drive from there so I don’t get to see them often. Thanks for your love and prayers and welcome.
Ellie,
I just love your hugs! { { { { { { { Ellie } } } } } } } Someday we’ll all get to meet face to face (if not here, in heaven!) and give each other a hug and be glad together.
DB,
You’re so right about fear. I had fear of saying the right thing, doing the right thing, etc., etc., etc. We need to be able to pour out our hearts in safety. God has welcomed and accepted us through Jesus. Our sins are forgiven and we are clothed in Christ’s righteousness. I love the way the KJV puts it in Ephesians 1:6, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. We really mirror God’s grace and welcome to us when we welcome each other.
Stunned,
Hey, thanks for feeling a little bit sick reading my story.
That kind of empathy really helps. You’re right that I think they were afraid. My guess is that at heart they don’t understand grace and are trying to win God’s approval through works. The most joyful and loving church I was ever in (my home church–I still think of it as such although it’s been years and years since I was there) had a pastor who preached about grace, grace, grace.
stunned
yet sometimes joyful for what god is doing in his kingdom
Yeah, that’s kind of how I feel right now. Thanks for thinking I’ll be able to care and help. Another favorite verse of mine is from Isaiah 42:3: a bruised reed he will not break, and a faintly burning wick he will not quench; he will faithfully bring forth justice.
I’m so glad Matthew repeats that verse from Isaiah in Matthew 12:8-21 and says Jesus fulfilled it. I just looked at that again in Matthew when I was trying to find it.
It’s good for me realize in light of this discussion and the purpose of this blog that Matthew wrote that regarding an encounter of Jesus with Pharisees. One of my pastors once said that Jesus purposefully chose the Sabbath to heal on many times because it showed the legalism of the Pharisees. The Pharisees were interested in accusing Jesus of Sabbath breaking and without compassion for the crippled man.
“What man is there among you who has a sheep, and if it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will he not take hold of it and lift it out?
“How much more valuable then is a man than a sheep! So then, it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.”
Then He said to the man, “Stretch out your hand!” He stretched it out, and it was restored to normal, like the other.
Sure enough, the Pharisees didn’t rejoice the man was healed. They just went away to try to figure out a way to destroy Jesus.
I’m just thinking out loud here (or in writing here
! ), but I find that so comforting that Matthew then pulls in some verses from Isaiah and says Jesus fulfilled them. That man with a withered hand was a bruised reed and a dimly burning wick. Jesus didn’t break him or put him out, He healed him and brought forth justice before the Pharisees.
I pray we all know the comfort of God. I’d appreciate your prayers that I trust Him to care for me.
INC said, “Yeah, that’s kind of how I feel right now. Thanks for thinking I’ll be able to care and help.”
INC, you SO clearly will be able to care and help for the hurting. You are now, just on here. I believe He has plans for you in the future, loving the hurting and the scarred, the “ugly” and the lonely. You will be doing HIS work in amazing ways.
Stunned
INC,
I just wanted to come back to reiterate, GOD WILL USE YOU TO LOVE THE HURTING AND THE LOST.
Hands down. It’s as obvious as seeing that the sky is blue. It is blue, girl. And you WILL love the lost and the hurt.
Believe that.
Thank you, Stunned,
I don’t know how it’s obvious, but thank you.
SOOOOOOOOOO OBVIOUS.
It’s like looking at a pig and seeing that’s it’s ugly.
OK, bad comparison.
It’s like looking at a blimp and seeing something big.
Still bad.
Give me a second. These are all coming out like insults.
Let’s try again.
What’s really obvious.
It’s like…
someone asking you what the color of the sky is on a sunny day*. It’s blue! It just is.
*That would be me failing to find any other comparison. No! Wait! I just came up with an obvious comparison!!!!
Is the pope Catholic?
Yes!
.
.
.
.
.
.
(unless he’s CJ Mahaney)
boy, am I going to get jumped for that one.
The answer is in first Corinthians. Don’t have my bible near, but the first chapter speaks about being able to comfort others as we have been comforted.
INC, the comic in the movie we saw was Kevin James. Maybe he is the guy you are thinking of. I have to say, it was so refreshing to watch a comedy that wasn’t rude or dirty, just plain funny! Also, it was the underdog who won the day. All it took was courage. Something we are all learning to walk in!
Awwwwwwwww, INC! Thanks for the hugs! I can’t always write alot, but I do try to read everything! I just wanted to let you know I cared – I’ve had some of the same feelings with some of the “meetings” I’ve had. :/
Stunned….lol.
However, CJ was Catholic at one time….and his church structure still is…..so, if it smells like a….
Stunned, you crack me up.
What’s the difference between CJ and the Pope?
Yes, the Pope’s the one with the ruby slippers.
My husband and I were discussing last year. I’d forgotten something he brought up to me. I guess my mind had blanked it out. A friend at the meeting told us that the next couple of Sundays the pastor made some digs from the pulpit that appeared to be references to us. I realize this is hearsay, but this person is reliable. I’m writing this because it hurts and makes me angry and it was typical behavior–he couldn’t drop it but had to justify himself. We realized that we could not go back if we were going to have to sit through that. It also made me wonder how deep or understanding his remorse and apology was in the first place.
I’m sorry to bring this up. It just is upsetting.
Dear Jim and Carole and Regular Contributors,
Wow – I just came across this website recently. I didnt know anything like this existed. Thanks for all you do to help those who have been hurt and disillusioned in SGM churches.
My story is dated now and my wife and I have long since moved on from PDI/SGM. But we still sometimes talk about the great work the Lord started in Cleveland, Ohio through PDI, and how disappointing that we all weren’t able to sustain it.
North Coast Church was one of PDI’s first church plants in Cleveland, Ohio . Larry and Doris Tomczak and a small team came to Larry’s hometown to start a church in the southwest suburbs. My wife was one of the first locals to join up, and she and some of the other single women were discipled by Doris Tomczak while Larry worked with the men. Within a few years, the church had almost 1000 members and was one of the most influential churches in NE Ohio. When I joined in 1984, Steve Shank was the senior pastor and the church was clearly thriving. Larry T. still visited often and his sister and her husband were influential members. The church was made up of mostly young marrieds and hundreds of committed singles. Many singles such as my wife and I lived in singles households. I grew up in a large unchurched family, and my brothers and sisters were amazed at the number of friends we all had. We were convinced we were at the center of what the Lord was doing in Cleveland.
But there were problems behind the scenes. The first Sunday I attended, one of the four pastors announced that he was stepping down from leadership. Steve Shank said that this pastor needed more time to work on his marriage and his calling. The pastor did not seem to agree, as he said the Lord was calling him to Canada. Steve Shank said the other pastors could not lay hands on him and bless his decision.
Soon after, the church announced a new plant in Akron (about an hour south of Cleveland) . Another of the four pastors was sent out to lead that church. But in less than a year the pastor was gone and disillusioned. There is still a SGM church in Akron today, but it has never really grown much after 20 years.
Steve Shank handed off the church to the third pastor, Ken Roberts, in 1985 , and headed off to Virginia Beach to start another PDI work. But Steve and Ken did not see eye-to-eye, and eventually Steve and Dave Harvey asked Ken to step down as senior pastor. Ken Roberts did not agree, and the majority of the pastoral team backed Ken. So in 1994 , the members of NCC received a letter from Ken and the pastors stating that our church was ending its relationship with PDI becuase of doctrinal and leadership differences. Many people such as my wife and I were hurt and confused, and there was no real explanation from either our church or from PDI.
After much prayer, my wife and I decided to leave North Coast Church and started attending the closest PDI church in Akron. Many others left, many stayed at NCC, but long-time friendships were severed. If any of you have experienced a church split, you know how wrenching that can be.
We and many others appealed to Dave Harvey to please not abandon a PDI vision for Cleveland. Enough of us called that Dave agreed to come and meet with us. Several hundred people came to the meeting at a hotel with Dave Harvey and Steve Shank. People hugged and cried and believed God would raise up another great church in Cleveland. But Dave and Steve had a list of criteria before a church could be planted. There would need to be a commitment of support , and the PDI leadership would need to pray about whether they could support a new plant. We were told to wait and pray. Many of us did both, but it was almost 2 years before a decision to plant a Cleveland church was made. Most of the several hundred people at the original meeting, including my wife and I, had moved on to other churches by that time. We eventually left the Akron church because it was too far, and floundered for a few years, but today we are happily plugged in to a CMA church.
I wish the story had a better ending. North Coast Church also suffered after leaving PDI. The name changed, Ken Roberts eventually left, and today it has only a few hundred attenders. The Cleveland SGM church today, like the one in Akron, has remained small without a permanent church building.
There is plenty of blame to go around for the failures here in Cleveland. Leadership could not stay united, and most of us saints did not have the faith to perservere when our world was shaken. But I cant help wonder why the PDI team didn’t see hundreds of people showing up on a winter night from just word of mouth as a clear sign that the Lord still had work for them in Cleveland. And I also wonder why the PDI/SGM and NCC leadership couldn’t work together to save a great church.
But praise the Lord that He is faithful , even when we are weak! Today there are many strong and growing churches in Cleveland. And almost everyone one of them has a few ex NCC members on the road to full healing.
Thanks for reading this long and rambling post.
Blessings to you all!
Ohioan:
Thanks very much for your informative post and welcome to the Refuge. Your post answers a lot of questions about what happened in Cleveland. I had been told by a pastor in my former SGM church that NCC left SGM primarily over SGM’s shift to reformed theology. I had never heard that there was an attempt to force our Ken Roberts. Unfortunately this sounds so typical of SGM in light of recent leadership changes in just the last few months. Is Worldview Community Church the new name for NCC? I found this church recently on the internet and I assumed that it must be NCC but before I found it I had assumed that NCC had closed its doors.
If I may ask, is Kenny Roberts still in ministry? Also, there was a young man named George who had a Greek last name and he was involved in the performing arts ministry at NCC which if I recall correctly was a significant ministry at NCC and during the 1980′s SGM relied fairly heavily on this ministry when producing special events. I went on a Eteam with him several years ago, is he still attending NCC?
Ohioan,
Welcome to the Refuge, and thank you so much for taking the time to share your story, as well as your wife’s.
I just wanted to add, that while I am actually glad the Cleveland church split from PDI, it is a lesson that speaks close to my own heart these days. I just said yesterday if my former church split from SGM after their recent adoption, I may go back. I see that just leaving PDI/SGM doesn’t make all the issues go away. There are deep rooted problems, ones that even opened them up to partner with/submit to SGM in the first place.
Why do you think those who didn’t leave the church to go with PDI also didn’t thrive? It is interesting that both the old PDI work and the new PDI work failed to some degree. But also interesting that as you said, there are many great churches now in Cleveland with former members. Perhaps that was the Lord’s intention all along. And what a great one that is!
Thanks for sharing your insights, have a blessed weekend..Juli
Hi FormerSgmer – Thanks for the reply!
To answer your questions.
Yes the former North Coast Church is now called Worldview Community Church. It is much closer in theology to the original PDI movement – i.e. very charismatic and not very calvinistic.
Kenny Roberts left Worldview after his wife tragically died. He now pastors a foursquare church in Minnesota.
I believe the young man you referred to is George Yunis. George was a professional rock band singer before joining NCC and is certainly gifted in the arts. You can possibly still reach him through Worldview.
One of the things that bothered many of the former North Coast Church members who met with Dave Harvey and Steve Shank, is that there was no acknowledgement that the flavor and theology of PDI/SGM had so obviously changed. When Larry Tomczak led the movement, PDI was aligned with restoration and charismatic movements such as Bryn Jones in England, Bob Weiner and the Vineyard. When Larry left and Brent D took over as primary theologian, there was a palpable change to traditional reformed theology. One can argue the merits of which view is correct, but there needed to at least be integrity and honesty that the movement had changed direction. Dave Harvey was insisting “we haven’t changed our charismatic roots at all “.
You could even see it in the church names. Early churches were called Covenant Life or Covenant Fellowship, now the names are typically Sovereign Grace. I wonder if SGM still offers some of the early teachings of CJ. They would sound so much different from what they are hearing today !
Wherever you are now, I hope you are experiencing God’s grace ! There truly is life abundant after SGM , even if the leadership drops you and close friends stop calling.
Ohioan, good point about it only being right to share and be honest that direction and focus had indeed change post-Larry and with Brent’s involvement. It is some form of denail or probably more likely manipulation that keeps SGM insisting they are still charismatic and haven’t changed. They aren’t charismatic, and they aren’t even reformed for that matter. They are modern-day calvinisitic Puritans. Nothing more. But that doesn’t sound as good as “Reformed Charismatic” does it?
Ohioan-
Welcome! and thank you for posting.
“Wherever you are now, I hope you are experiencing God’s grace ! There truly is life abundant after SGM , even if the leadership drops you and close friends stop calling.”
Well said!
Jim, that quote needs to go on the random quotes thing in the corner.
Posted on the old Survivors’ message board:
“In June of 1997, the North Coast Church in Ohio terminated their relationship with the PDI (which turned into Sovereign Grace Ministries on September 1, 2002). Their “apostolic” overseers claimed that the member church did not have the spiritual authority to leave the “family of churches, but the pastoral staff at North Coast differed with that opinion.
Of concern to North Coast were, among others, the apostolic team’s recent focus and strong stand regarding reformation Theology and elements of Calvinism, their exclusiveness with regards to other churches outside of PDI, a variety of issues with the concept of apostles, and the limiting of women from certain areas of ministry and the workplace.
Sound familiar?
The only reason that I had ever heard at the time that North Coast left PDI was that the departure was due to doctrinal differences, which were assumed by most to be concerning the “excesses” of the whole charismatic thing. The list of differences given above look like something that we would see on our message board today in 2008!
I wonder what would have happened if the veiled change of theology had been clearly communicated to ALL the members of all the churches in PDI’s “family of churches”? I wonder if there are any people out there from North Coast Church in Ohio, which is now “WorldView Community Church”, that remember what happened back in 1997 and know just how blessed they were?
I wonder what churches looking to be “adopted” by Sovereign Grace Ministries are told about being able to leave this denomination (oops – I mean “family of churches”)? Or is their church taken over by a more “capable” leader so that leaving isn’t really a possibility?
Just some wonderings in the wee hours of the morning…”
http://sgmsurvivors.com/forum/.....#038;t=160
Ellie-thank you!
I remembered the conversation, but lack your mad skills
You’re welcome, Jim!
There was something else about North Coast somewhere, but I’m having a harder time finding that one right now. :/
Dear Ohioan,
I went on an e-team event years ago to that Cleveland church. I remember the house I stayed in Jeff and Sharon Kay…..I slept on their floor and it might as well have been a 5 star hotel they treated me so kindly. I will never forget them…they taught me what it was like to “share”
And that something criminal happened on that trip, that I will forever wonder if it was just “covered up” I appreciate your comments and the good memories..
Ellie wrote – “Their “apostolic” overseers claimed that the member church did not have the spiritual authority to leave the “family of churches,”
man, that is downright scary! If that isn’t proof positive these leaders are controlling and power-hungry, what will? I’m angry now, again. What right do THEY have to say who can come and go for crying out loud! It was the church’s free will to join i the first place, they can leave at anytime they please! Let it go already SGM!
I have little hope for Shank, Mahaney, Harvey and all those long timers who have been through more than one of these church splits, coverups, etc..- it seems by the fruit that we are presently seeing from these men that their hearts have long since grown very hard, and the time has long past for people to coddle their sin and treat it as some momentary mistake, misjudgment, etc.
May God have mercy on these men, but honestly, I don’t. My prayers have just changed – I am now simply praying for judgment to come, and for God to deliver His people. If He happens to show mercy on these men in the process, then I won’t be surprised because God gives mercy where we all don’t deserve, but right now my heart is with the sheep, not these wicked shepherds. Maybe that will change one day, but for today – I weep for the hurt ones, and cry out in anger at these false shepherds..
Jim, maybe my anger about this situation with Cleveland so long ago is not appropriate for this particular thread – if so, please feel free to delete me!
Inc,
I think it is normal to have flashbacks, even years later, of harm that was forgotten. It hurts to be betrayed! I think it goes back to the saying Juli and I were quoting on another thread, “Et tu, Brutus?” Imagine, trusting your friend so completely (or in our cases, the pastors), only to be shanked in the back by these very folks. It is a dagger like pain that only one who has experienced it understands.
So I want to say Inc, that I understand. The hurt feeling will pass. I know there is forgiveness in your heart. Jesus was betrayed by everyone he loved, in the end. So, we have the honor of saying, “Jesus, in a little way, we have suffered like you did.” Then we can think our Elder Brother for refusing to turn away from that suffering, or we wouldn’t be who we are today. Hugs, great big hugs, to you!
“I wonder what churches looking to be “adopted” by Sovereign Grace Ministries are told about being able to leave this denomination (oops – I mean “family of churches”)? Or is their church taken over by a more “capable” leader so that leaving isn’t really a possibility?”
Ellie, I doubt this even comes up..who even has access to the official documents anyway? If someone were to ask about those things- well, let’s just say, it would not be well received.
You little trouble maker!
I love ya!
On the up side, at least now potential adoptees have more information that my own pastor and church did (as well as previous ones) thanks to the internet and these blogs. They can decide for themselves. More and more people will at least have the opportunity to know the whole story about SGM, the good, the bad, and the ugly, and decide for themselves. And no one can say “I had no idea” anymore…
Perhaps this in and of itself is revealing – those who continue to link arms with SG< knowing all that is readily available now to them, are fully responsible for their decisions to go forward. Likewise, those whose eyes are being opened can now come out and be free.
The same sun that hardens the clay, melts the wax..or whatever the saying is..
Ohioan welcome! I am glad to hear that you have found a good place to worship. I have visited the Akron church several times (I have friends there) and was wondering if the Akron church is heavily influenced by the SGM mandates?
Evveryone who replied to my story about the Cleveland happenings – Thanks for the encouragement!
There were a few questions back, so I’ll try to answer.
1) The attempt by PDI leadership to remove Ken Roberts as NCC pastor is fact. One of my close friends was on staff at the time. The rest of the pastoral staff were asked to support PDI. A majority chose to support Ken Roberts. But there certainly were doctrinal disagreements as well.
2) Juli – I cant fully answer why North Coast Church did not thrive after leaving PDI/SGM. But IMHO a contributing factor was that the church retained the practice of total decision-making by the leadership team without input from members. It seemed to be hard for the leadership to accept input or concerns from members without viewing it as disloyalty. The unwillingness to even discuss the break from PDI beyond one letter to the church is what caused my wife and I to leave.
However, it has been many years since we left and I would not want to speculate on where the church is at now.
3) Charlie – Thanks for sharing. The Kays were wonderful people and Jeff had expressed a desire to have 12 children. Last I heard they were almost there.
4) Bethany – As far as I know the Akron church is still under SGM covering and presumably supportive of their direction. The pastor, Jim Walter, has been there for over 10 years. He was one of the North Coast pastors who wanted to maintain ties with PDI.
Ohioan,
Welcome, sort of late. The saga of the Cleveland church sounds somewhat similar to the Atlanta church. PDI wanted to discipline the senior pastor for a season while he took a sabbatical. The pastor saw that more was afoot (like losing his church and job) and refused to cooperate. The church pulled out of PDI affiliation, causing a painful church split. Larry T. was sent to pick up the PDI pieces, but shortly thereafter was himself removed. We were not involved in the Atlanta PDI church at all, but have many dear friends who went through that whole season. Of course, you don’t find these accounts on the PDI/SGM websites when they document their church history.
Hello,
I was reading through these posts but am very confused. I still don’t have a clear picture what SGM is doing to people to create this ground swell of negative posts. I mean, what specifically is happening? Everyone posts so generally. Are these cases of people being confronted about thinkgs like sexual immorality, and who disagree with the resulting discipline? Or are people complaining about leaders telling them to do things that are wrong (like what)? Give me a specific story of how you were “booted” from SGM, and for what reason?
My background: I started going to an SGM church about 3 years ago. I have to say I liked it very much, and to some extent still do, but we are still not members, and pressure is growing. When I first started going, the Gospel of Christ suddenly became very clear despite being a Christian for some 20 years (at a mix of Baptist and non-demon’s). The book “A Gospel Primer” just blew me away how elegant and the Gospel is, and how it addresses my pride problem in such a humble way without making me feel stepped on. Jesus became much more real to me, and I seemed to grow in appreciation and awe for what He has done for me. I credit SGM with helping to bring into focus the Gospel. Yet, I must admit, I do wonder about some of the subtle and clever ways pressure is applied (not that it is wrong, but I wonder….).
Dear Ex PDI Pastor, Your post is so full of the love of Jesus Christ and demonstrates His heart towards His children. I want to commend you and thank you for your kindness and love in asking forgiveness. I do so appreciate your heart and your desire to bring healing to the body of Christ and to those many, many people who have been wounded and abused through SGM. Sadly, I do not believe that you can ask for forgiveness on behalf of SGM. This must come from CJ and his leaders. You have highlighted the need for all of us to examine our hearts to be sure that we have forgiven those in SGM who have hurt us and that we are not harboring anger, bitterness and resentment. Even if CJ, et al never confess and ask for forgiveness, we are called before God to forgive them. This does not mean that we are called back into relationship with them, but in our hearts, we must forgive as Jesus has forgiven us. In order for us to move forward and to walk in freedom, we must forgive. Thank you again. I do believe that this is a huge step and I pray that every past or present SGM leader who is reading this blog will do the same.
Ex PDI Pastor,
Thank you! That means so much.
You said,
“God is LOVE. Not discipline, not authority, not abuse, not control. Mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgement.”
Yippee! I’m taking that with me today!
Ex PDI Pastor,
Thank you for posting… Truly a blessing! I’m filled with joy to hear that you’ve moved on, you are experiencing freedom in Christ, and you are being used to minister God’s love to his body.
May He bless this new work that has been started, and use it mightily to further His kingdom here on earth.
Ex PDI Pastor,
Welcome to the Refuge, and thank you. It will take men (and women) like you to tell their experiences, to help others still in bondage see that there is freedom in Christ outside of SGM. I am so glad that you and your family have found a part of the church out there that practices love. That’s wonderful.
Your words will be balm to many hurting, confused people. Thanks, again.
Ex-PDI pastor,
Go to Gravatar. com. It will explain everything, and it is free.
Ex-PDI Pastor,
thanks so much for your post – while I am encouraged by your absolute clarity, blessings you have received by God, and the freedom you have found in Him…I have to admit your story serves to reinforce my belief that reform in SGM is not possible.
You mentioned that this is there MO – yes, you are absolutely right! I don’t think people want to believe that the very same MO has been used for YEARS…this is nothing recent. It is calculated, premeditated, discussed, agreed upon and acted upon repeatedly. No mistake on their part, no deception. They chose the MO and have stuck with it, despite the fruit it produces in the Body. They have repeatedly exerted unbiblical authority over others, controlled, spiritually abused, neglected, misguided, discouraged, and enslaved so many over the years…a simple “I’m sorry” won’t cut it. Not that they have even offered that much. They have offered NOTHING. Not even one explanation for their horrific actions.
The entire organization would have to be dismantled, one idea (and one leader) at a time..and of course the result would be an entirely NEW work…based on truth, not error, based on integrity and true humility and not pomp and pretense. Many say that because SGM “preaches the gospel” and focuses on the Cross, etc it’s all good..but they don’t preach the gospel..they preach a gospel full of leaven that enslaves the hearers – the gospel of the Galatians. This is serious stuff. But it is only the tip of the iceberg unfortunately.
I am SO glad that even back then in PDI as a young couple, you and your wife had discernment and the Lord has moved you both out of Egypt into the Promised Land He had for you….blessings and peace to you my brother!
Hi Ex PDI Pastor,
We probably know each other. I was at CLC from 81 to 95. I’m glad to hear you are doing so well and fulfilling your calling.
I am out of a SG church. One of the problems that I am having is a complete mistrust of pastors and church leadership. How have some of you dealt with this? Is there a thread or post on this?
Hello Newlywndd
It takes time. I didn’t want to even attend church after what happened to me at Sovereign Grace Ministry. I took a few months off just to fellowship with the Lord, and ask for healing. It is still VERY HARD now, and I find myself with little support, but the blessing of the Lord.
I am visiting a church and just checking it out. I purposely do not serve, but I do get involved. Just for a time…healing, resting and trusting God. Please listen to BE STIlL by steven curtis chapman. I am praying for you..
Newlywndd,
I understand completely what you’re feeling. I have been going through that for the past almost-a-year since we left SGM. I am so grateful for the pastor of my first non-sgm church, who said to me “sometimes, I tell people that, when they’ve left an unhealthy church experience, it’s sometimes best to just sit in the back row for awhile.” That’s what I’ve done. I’m so grateful for that. I didn’t ask him about this, but my husband was mentioning that I didn’t want to get involved in church.
My husband, on the other hand, was never ‘sold out’ to SGM. He always saw their faults. He was abused because of this. But, we stayed…because I forced us to stay…for 12 more years. So, when we left SGM, he was ready to jump right in. Thank God, he had such a healthy understanding of christianity that the abuse at SGM did not harm his walk like it does to so many of us.
I’m so grateful that he patiently allows me to just “sit in the back row.” I’m finally craving being part of a church and I’m grateful that I can lean on my husband to discern if things get kookoo.
It’s very hard, Newlywndd. I understand. Stay close to the Lord. You will know what’s right….
Sidney
Erik and Greg,
Greg Zetts was my husband’s pastor for years before he went to CLC. And we are so blessed that Greg prayed over us at our wedding. What a sweet man.
Greg…you probably remember. :)
Welcome newlywndd,
What you are experiencing is absolutely normal. I am still very cautious and yes even suspicious of pastors at this point. As God began to reveal and uncover the deception, I saw that the pastors who I had held in high esteem, trusted them with my very life and the life of my family, thought that they were godly men, actually were very ungodly, they were men who lied, were controlling, manipulative and abusive, etc. and the doctrine, the very Gospel, they taught was way off. It was very hard in the beginning to even sit in a Bible study. I even questionned B M when I would watch her Bible study video tapes….she seems really godly but is this all an act?? I was talking about this with someone who grew up with B and said what you see on the tapes, is exactly who she is and that yes, she is truly a godly woman, off and on the camera. I am now thinking for myself and will never again follow someone blindly.
I began attending another church right away and am very thankful that I did. My new church is full of the Holy Spirit and freedom in Christ and the pastor truly loves Jesus and the Body. The first Sunday I was bathed in the love of God through the worship and teaching. This was something that I hadn’t had in a very long time and needed desperately (even though I didn’t know that I needed it). Every time I attend this new church, it is like streams of Living Water are being poured into my dry and weary soul. Truly I was in a wilderness at SGCC and didn’t even know it. I am attending every conference, training and Bible study that I can possibly attend because I am so hungry for the true Word of God and see the need to be reprogrammed!! I thank God for His kindness and mercy for this great deliverance that has occurred through His bringing many out. We pray for those left behind that they will see the truth.
God is faithful and He is already healing your heart. He is faithful and He is working all things for good! He will restore what the locusts have devoured in all our lives!!! Everyday is a new day and His mercies are new. I will rejoice and be glad! We have an awesome Savior! Fix your eyes upon Him and let Him tell you everyday what He thinks of you – He loves you, He delights in you, you are a saint who is covered in the blood of Jesus. As a born again Christian, you are not a dirty rotten worm of a sinner. No you are the bride of Christ who is loved and is precious to your God!! This is the truth of the Gospel! I am just beginning to walk in these newfound truths and freedom and I LOVE IT!!! Jesus promises abundant life to His children and we are on our way!!
newlywndd, I would echo charlies response to you. I would give yourself some time and be patient with the process. Be in prayer and ask some mature believers for advice. There are some good “hospital” churches you can attend while working through the healing process that won’t make you feel like you’re subsersive if you aren’t married to them, know what I mean?
I’m sure there are people here and at sgmsurvivors like myself who would be happy to talk with you. A lot of people have mentioned how they have been helped by feeling free to discuss their experiences and read about others on the blogs, and of finding a place where they discovered that they were not alone in their realization that they were not the problem – SGM was!
I would offer that you can expect to experience some grief. I don’t know how long you were involved in SGM, but the length of time, the level of your committment, and the degree to which you were wounded will all factor into how long the process will take.
Elisabeth Kübler-Ross, who introduced (what became known as) the “five stages of grief” (denial, anger, bargaining, depression, acceptance) said this about grief and its’ process:
“They (the five stages) were never meant to help tuck messy emotions into neat packages. They are responses to loss that many people have, but there is not a typical response to loss, as there is no typical loss. Our grieving is as individual as our lives.”
Leaving a church is a loss. You will lose something you had in your life before. You will experience grief as a result, so I would be prepared for that. Be good to yourself and trust that God will guide your steps! I pray that the Lord provides you with His instruments of healing and restoration from the coffers of His great Kingdom!
http://www.interviewwithgod.com/psalm23.htm
Dear Newlywndd,
What wonderful advice you are receiving here! As sad as it is to hear of yet another newly wounded, it is also good to hear Sydney, Charlie, Fred and Claireon talk about God’s healing and how to move forward.
It’s been a long time since our ordeal, and I can add or really just emphasize this: you must NEVER trust your pastor again! At least, not in the way that we were expected to in SGM. For the truth of the matter is, there are no men, SGM or others, who stand between you and God; they do NOT have special gifting to hear from God for you. They are just men. We are not to yield our responsibilities to them: hearing from God, searching out His Word, seeking His Will in our everyday lives, finding acceptance and fulfillment in our callings. These are all things we do with regularity because we LOVE Him and want to abide in Him. No man has the authority or station to muck this up. Sure, we can listen and be draw to the Lord by an anointed message, or we can seek advice or counsel from someone whom we respect, but ultimately the journey is between each individual and the Lord. Personal intimacy with the Lord and the priesthood of every believer are precious, foundational truths of the New Covenant. Wise men, wise pastors would be fearful to step on them.
So, I figure, after these experiences, you will never be the same. Learn well the errors of SGM so you will be quick to spot and avoid them elsewhere. There is a way to do this without becoming bitter or jaded. As others have said, take your time. God’s journey for you will not look like anyone else’s. I love that about God. It’s PERSONAL.
I will be praying for you along with the other dear folks here.
Newlywndd,
I’m glad you’re here. I think Gracie nailed it.
Thank you all for the helpful comments; it’ll take me a while to work through them.
In brief, my story goes like this:
Ch 1 – SGM advocate – loving the idea of the doctrines of grace and continuationism
Ch 2 – SG church staff/pastor – could it get any better? (rhetorical question – no need to respond, we all know the answer!)
Ch 3 – SG church/SGM discard – “You can step down when/if/how we say you can!”
Ch 4 – Cage match with the [A][a]postle – What happens when the local SG church staff/leadership don’t have the integrity, over a period of months, to talk to you; bring in the hired gun!
The wounds are so new any more … the healing has started.
Thanks to all.
newlywndd,
I didn’t know you were a guy-a sgm staff guy. I would have had much more to say.
Feel free to send me a note or give me a call. Contact info is on the “about” page.
I know some people you might want to talk to.
Jim – I will contact you.
BTW, my last post should read “The wounds are NOT so new”.
Newlywndd,
Man (SGM) may declare you unfit, unworthy, lacking spiritual gifting, etc….but God has not. Never forget that simple piece of truth – it will preserve your sanity and passion in the end.
I have grieved for the discarded, displaced, and disillusioned pastors of SGM ever since I realized the abusive pattern by false authority over you brothers…it makes me angry, to be honest. What judgment will befall these men for their presumptions of standing in the stead of God and using that lie to justify the horrific treatment of fellow brothers in Christ.
As Jim would probably tell you…there are more pastors like you out there – discarded by SGM, many of whom the old timers from SGM/PDI have discussed on this blog when they find out they have been “Shanked”, and not coincidentally, they are the SAME pastors former SGMers here, when remembering them, praise and love them for their commitment to Christ above all…. these beloved pastors are the ones being replaced by very young men churned out from the PC who are conditioned to obey without question. Again, no coincidence.
If you were discarded, make no mistake: it was because you were NOT an SGM yes man and thought for yourself and didn’t let others do your thinking for you. And that is a GOOD THING. You have my highest respect and admiration for your courage to believe and speak the truth, even now, on this blog. Thank Him each day for opening your eyes and calling you out by His mercy and grace…despite the pain involved. Because you freedom is worth it. Blessings to you and yours…Juli
Newlywmdd,
All the above is such great advice! I want to add that people should earn your trust. Never give it freely like it was demanded by SGM. It is okay to have a healthy “suspicion” of those who call themselves leaders in a church. Test them, see if they are worthy of being trusted, but never give away your newly found freedom in Christ to anyone, ever again. It is too precious. Welcome to the blog. You are among friends.
I want to thank God and you all for this web site and your support for each other. I have finally made the decision to leave the mad house that I called my church. I honestly believed that I was going crazy until I found this and other sites where others have experienced exactly what I have experienced.
I have learned that ALL of the pastors at SGM are alike. They are all taught the SGM doctrine not the doctrine of love and mercy that Jesus commanded us to show for one another. They believe that our indwelt sin is the be all and end all. They truly believe themselves to be “ordained” directly by God and would have you believe that their “wisdom” and “counsel” is God speaking directly through them. Let no one dare question their counsel….
I believe that this “doctrine of sin” they so strongly emphasise and the emphasis that is put on humility and submission to pastoral leadership are subtle forms of brain washing. Over time and as one gets immersed in the SGM culture, the subtleties start going away and the blatancies start emerging. The scary thing is that the irrational things one sees and the blatancies start becoming “normal.” You have sold out to your own logicalthinking and the wisdom God has given you illogical SGM ideology.
My issue lies with the fact the anything and everything that happens to you is a reflection on your own indwelt sin.
My story (in a nut shell) is that while going through Alpha and Beta with my unbelieving wife, she left me for a known felon and 13 year addicted drug user that was a member of our group. This man was from a local ministry that ministered to drug addicts. The small group leader for our Alpha and Beta groups was the actual pastor who ran the Alpha program.
As a member of the church (my wife wasn’t), I sought counsel form the pastor who was my small group leader. I believed at the time that he and I had become very close. He knew all of the players and the situation. He refused to counsel with me stating that “he was too close to the situation” (is he supposed to be “far” from the situation to better counsel or serve me?)
In my grief and state of confusion at how my whole life had just been turned up side down, I sought counsel from a family life pastor that my wife and Ihad been seeing. Too my horror, the counsel I got from him and subsequently every other pastor in the church was that I was seeing her sin more clearly than my own. I was told to focus on my own sin and nothing but my own sin! Not once did I ever get a word of encouragement, an email, or anything that even remotely resembled love from these men. For three years during the worst trials I had ever gone through in my life, I saught those that were supposedly my ”leaders” for answers, biblical guidance, and yes, a kind word. All I got was my own indwelt sin thrown back in my face!
For three years, I could not even be afforded a kind word from those men that I believed would love me like Jesus commanded. In three years of humbling myself and going back to them for guidance to get me through my darkest times, the only counsel they gave me was to seek out my own sin…. to stop looking at other’s sins more clearly than my own, and to not judge others….
For three years, those that I thought were my brothers in Christ, who would be loyal to a fellow believer turned their backs on me in my darkest times.
Shame on you SGM for raising such men that will lay such heavy burdens on us with the emphasis on “our own sin” yet not lift a finger or even say a kind word to those going through the worst of trials. What hypocrisy, what hypocrisy….
May God forgive you “shepherds” of CFC…….
Betrayed, I am so very sorry for the terrible treatment you received at the hands of so called men of God. True men of God do not behave in these abusive, insensitive and even hateful ways. My heart is grieving for you but at the same time rejoicing that you have left. Praise be to God that you can now walk in freedom and truth and be out of the abusive environment of SGM. Your post was so well written and expresses so much of what is going on in SGM churches. There is no love and truly, there is no Jesus because He is love. It is all so terrible and we pray that others continue to see the truth and LEAVE SGM. God will heal your broken heart, little by little and you will sing a new song in your heart over the goodness and love of the true Jesus Christ. God bless you today.
Jim, this testimony and the one yesterday – you and Carole are doing a mighty work for the kingdom of God. Thank you so much.
Good words, Fred, as usual! I love to read your posts, because there is LOVE in them!
Betrayed, God is love, God is love, God is love. In Him there is no darkness at all. Jesus gave us His Comforter, the Holy Spirit. I pray His comfort guides you to the rest that is for every believer (Hebrews). He has paid for our sins, and now we can rest in His love. I am very sorry that you have suffered so, but I am also confident that God will take what is bad and turn it into good for those who seek Him. Big, big hugs from a sympathetic Canary.
I am so sorry, Betrayed. The pastors really do read from the same script–I got similar counsel. It’s horrifying.
God loves you. He knows your sorrow and pain–understands, bears, and knows its limits. He can take even this to use for your good and His glory. Come out and live in love and in freedom!
A few thoughts on our SIN:
And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.” Jeremiah 31:34
Why is it that God Himself can forgive our sins, past, present, and future yet our own pastors can see only the sin that remains within us? How does one see or feel God’s Grace when constantly told by those they honor, respect, and submit too that they are still sinners, sinners, sinners? Where does the Holy Spirit’s conviction of sin come into play here? Have the pastors made themselves a substitute for God and for the Holy Spirit by constantly trying to convict and remind us of our sin?
Let’s substitute the word “bad” for the word sin. It is a well known fact in psychology that children who are constantly told that they are “bad,” grow up to be “bad.” These children start living and conforming to the image of themselves that they have been programmed to believe. Are we all to believe that we still remain “bad” even after Christ’s sacrifice for us? Christ has set us free from the bonds of our slavery to sin!
Is this a means to convicts us for our need for a Savior or is it to convicts us of our need for a SGM pastor and C.J. Mahaney? I know God has forgiven me, why cant they?
The Jews of the old testement used to give a sin offering every year in rememberance of their sin. Hebrews 9 below, proves that Christ was a sacrifice once and for all. By constantly being made to dwell on our indwelling sin, are we not re-Crucifying Christ time and time again like the Jews of the Old Testament did the yearly lamb?
Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own, for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment, so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him. Hebrews 9:25-28
Amazingly enough, I remember a sermon Dave Harvey once gave where he emphasized that we should not see others through their sins. All I could think were the words “you hypocrits, you hypocrits, how dare you.” All that these pastors do is look for our sins. My only experience with them was to be seen through my sin and only my sin…. WOW!
In another sermon, another pastor emphasized the need to correct one another if we see un-biblical or un-godly behavior. Yet…. when you do correct someone, you are told that you are seeing their sin more clearly than your own!! Which one is it? Is it the flavore of the day?
Well, I just go back to the Greatest and second greatest commandment… to love God and your neighbor….. last I heard, the greates commandments are not to dwell on your own sin…. or to give a man (pastor) more honor than you would give the Lord Himself…
May God keep Blessing you all richly… as He has me
Betrayed,
I am so sorry to hear of your story. May the Lord grant you healing from your betrayal and renewal in His love.
I don’t know where you are in your journey, but the following article, Spiritual Abuse, was one of the first I read on church abuse. It’s not really a developed piece, but reads sort of like a first draft with a group of ideas and quotes the author has gleaned. He quotes a book by Ken Blue, Healing Spiritual Abuse: How to Break Free from Bad Church Experiences. It’s an older book, but I was able to get a copy online. At the bottom of the page there is more suggested reading. Some of those books were in our local library and that was a blessing. Ron Blue mentioned narcissistic leaders in his book and that led me to another book in our library by Les Carter, Enough about you, let’s talk about me: how to recognize and manage the narcissists in your life. This book was a real eye-opener and in places was a tough read.
Some of the books were hard reading material because of the feelings that were dredged up. Some books I could only skim. I mention that as a caution because we each have to advance as the Lord leads us. By recommending the books, I don’t want to push you in any way, I only want to let you know some things that were helpful to me in case they could help you.
The Lord’s people have been the ones the Lord continues to use. As I felt betrayed in relationships, I have to learn little steps of trust again in relationships. Some months after doing this reading I came upon this site. It helped me so much to learn that I was not alone and I was not crazy in my reactions. It is a wonderful gift from God to see how He has extended His love and grace through people I have never met face to face.
INC, What you said to Betrayed is so beautiful.
It is especially true about having to take little steps in learning to trust others, again. In fact, it is right that we don’t give our trust away too easily, that it should be earned. My tendancy is to jump right into a friendship, embracing and trusting quickly. I have had to learn to go against my nature a little bit, by treading carefully, though I still like to believe the best of others unless I see a reason not to.
I think that we help each other on this blog to trust, again. I know I’ve grown immensely by the ministry of the saints here. When I first started blogging, I was so scared, so vulnerable. I’m not as much, anymore!
Still praying, INC!
The book is by Ken Blue. The second mention of the book in which I said Ron Blue was incorrect–I should have written Ken Blue! I missed that in the editing! Ron Blue is the Christian financial guy and bears no relation to anything I mentioned above.
Thanks, Canary!!
Somehow I missed your comment before I made my last one. I’m doing too many things at once here!
From one of your peeps!
Betrayed-
I am so sorry….you deserved more than that….I’m sorry that they were so blind to your pain and need and instead offered a heavy load. It’s just so not Jesus to be that way….
I hope you are finding God’s love and peace in your trials.
MM
Spamming my own blog.
Please see this post.
Betrayed,
I read your story with sadness and grief as I recall the twisted craziness that so many find on the SGM journey.
I am so glad you are out of there brother. My heart reaches out to you, just to remind you that Abba LOVES you so very deeply that if you could take it all in you would be immediately ushered into HIS eternal presence.
Blessings to you as you continue to heal and recover and live out of His love, power, and faithfulness!
Thanks Jim, for doing one more good thing amidst your already busy day.
It’s so affirming to read all this- yall have articulated what I haven’t been able to speak. My little sister has disappeared in this SGM mess, and I feel so helpless! She’s been in a SG church for the past 3-4 years, and the change is evident to all those who knew her. But she’s cut off contact with most of those who care about her, in favor of her new family, and we’re all grieving. I ache because I can’t connect with her- it’s like the person inside has died. She has no reaction to things that provoke normal anger, surprise, shock, joy in others. She can’t be in the presence of the rest of our family without her husband present (no alone time with us)- she’s literally become a Stepford wife, and I am interacting with a brick wall. Her husband is on the fast track to becoming a pastor at SG (without formal training?!), and they have been touted as the “poster couple” for courting. But she’s not her- she’s barely anyone. And now she’s had their first child, and I fear she’s locked in this culture (or cult?) for quite a while, because now there’s much to lose. Much to be ashamed of if it doesn’t work out perfectly, since they’ve invested so much faith and indentity in this “perfect” way. Seems like a different form of the American-prosperity gospel, where if you get the doctrine right, it all works out well for you. And if it doesn’t work out well…that’s a lot of pressure to live under. She is NOT free, and that is not Jesus. I just want her to be free!
So, I struggle deeply because there’s that the part of me which has fear and compassion for her. And yet, when she does talk (usually after she’s run the conversation back by her husband or someone else on “leadership” in the church), she is both cliche and arrogant. It makes me so angry that her answers are someone else’s- not critically digested or thought through. I also am really hurt that her responses are so condemning of me and others for “not getting it right.” (She quit college, and I’m an MD in residency). But what is so maddening, is that it’s a passive-aggressive and very manipulative condemnation. Her disdain is shrouded by some weird Christian-ese, and I haven’t been able to pinpoint what’s wrong in her statements. It’s her distance from me, and what feels like a distance from Christ, that feels wrong. But how do you quantifiy that? She wouldn’t know what I was saying. Has anyone else felt this trapped? I don’t know how to keep my relationship with her- I don’t know how to be me around her. And yet, I want her to see freedom in Christ in hopes that she may be free to love Him with anger, joy, saddness, mistakes, successes. So I feel stuck- I wonder if I’m feeling what she’s not allowed to feel herself??
Any suggestions?
Erin, your picture of your sister is all too common. Sadly, it’s like dealing with an alcoholic or with a drug addiction, but at least they usually have some idea that this stuff might be bad for them, not that this is the best stuff in the world and that everyone else is foolish and sinful for not using it.
Love your sister, love her baby, and . . . be there when she hits bottom.
Erin, sadly it sounds like there is more “cult” than culture. It reminds me of of people having to do an “intervention” to get someone out of a cult.
The best bet is prayer and love. Keep praying. Keep loving unconditionally.
Erin, I agree with Setfreepastor and acme, the best things you can do are pray for your sister and her family and keep loving them unconditionally. Perhaps you could fast if that’s what the Lord leads you to do.
Your sister’s treatment of you reminded me of these verses from 1 Peter 2:21-24 (NASB): “For you have been called for this purpose, since Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example for you to follow in His steps, who committed no sin, nor was any deceit found in his mouth; and while being reviled, He did not revile in return; while suffering, He uttered no threats, but kept entrusting Himself to Him who judges righteously; and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed.”
Another verse from 1 Peter 4:8 (NASB): “Above all, keep fervent in your love for one another, because love covers a multitude of sins.”
Perhaps by loving your sister unconditionally and praying for her, the Holy Spirit will convict her and show her the error of her ways.
Erin,
Your sister sounds like someone I use to know…now who is that…oh yes, ME!
I got married in SGM, had babies, followed the rules, felt only what I was allowed to…yet, somehow, the Lord was able to break through my stepford wife existence and set me free. After nearly 20 years under controlling doctrine, I just couldn’t do it anymore. I began to ask, “Is this all there is to being a Christian? IS this ALL?” My hunger for Jesus began to grow. I began to seek for truth.
Your sister is ensnared. The whole “I’m doing it right, you aren’t” thing is because her ego is involved, or because she lives in fear. Fear is the biggest snare. The SGM culture offers a sense of safety if you follow their ways. It is all an illusion, of course.
Telling your sister these things won’t help. Like Setfreepastor and acme encouraged, love is what she needs. Love her, pray for her, and trust the Lord that He will move in her and her husband. It doesn’t take much for the eyes to be opened. One mis-step, one idea that goes against the flow, and they will see the reality of a church machine that doesn’t allow freedom of thought.
My husband and I were distant from our families, as well. When we left SGM, that changed almost instantly. We had no one “outside” praying for us. Your sister does. That will make such a difference. It is heartbreaking to see someone you love change for the worst, to see her grow apart from you, but the Lord is so HUGE! He can call your sister and her husband out of SGM to freedom. Be there for them when that happens.
Wish I could give you a big hug. I can hear the pain you are feeling through your words. The Lord’s love, through you, can change all this. Pray for your sister and husband to begin hungering for a deep relationship with their Father. Believe me, that might cause major conflict and eye-opening experiences in itself. Walking closely with God nurtures freedom and individuality, both of which our former church did not encourage.
yes, yes and yes to what everyone has posted to you Erin. Although she may seem absolutely set in her new SGM ways, you never know when she will need a safe place to come and talk. Keep the avenues of communication open as much as you can, love her and love Jesus in front of her! It really helped me to see people who had left my church and how much their love for Jesus flourished and grew. As I saw that, it reminded me of what I was like before I joined SGM. I wanted Jesus. I knew something was missing…
Erin, I’m not sure if you realize this, but SGM does read this blog and will be trying to figure out who you are, especially given the fact that you mentioned your sister’s husband is on the fast track to becoming a pastor.
Just giving you a heads up. SGM doesn’t play according to anyone’s rules but their own, and they are extremely into damage control and very protective over their own (i.e. pastors or potential leadership esp.)… my mentioning a friend of mine whose husband was just considering going to the PC was what “gave me away” last year.
I was a nobody in SGM, in an obscure and recently adopted SGM church, in a small town in Texas…if they can figure out who and where I was, they can with others. The fact that they even took the time to in my case was so ridiculous…as I said, I was a nobody in the world of SGM.
Pray up…and don’t be surprised if your sister comes to you very angry because her pastor told her that you (her sister) were posting about her on this blog. That is a a HUGE no-no in their mind. Don’t think for a second that they won’t try to turn family against family to remain in control, or divide husbands and wives, turn children against their parents….they do it ALL the time. That’s how sick it really is.
I will be praying for you as well as your sister and her husband….truth bears out. Pray and love your sister. Point her to this blog and others if she does not know about them already. And now she has hundreds of others praying for her as well….
Erin,
Welcome to the site. I have been reading and posting here and at survivors for over a year now, but have never shared this part of my story in any detail. I do so now because I want you to know that I can relate and understand your frustration and concern.
When we were dismembered from our (then) PDI church, my sister and her family were also attending there. She and I are very close in age and had always had a close relationship. At the time of our turmoil, naturally we shared “our side” of the story with her. Then she went to see the pastor. Afterwards, everything was different. There was a wall between us. I was wounded. I felt she of all people should have come to our defense. As the years went by and she became more entrenched in all things SGM, our relationship was non-existent. She did not call me when her youngest two children were born. I did not share any of the details of my life with her. More years went by. She moved away to be part of a SGM church plant in a different state. Still, no relationship.
Then, one day, the Lord spoke to me. Go see your sister. I obeyed. It was a joyous time. Even though she was still convinced of SGM’s wonderfulness, the foundation of our lifelong relationship was in tact and we were able to be reconciled. She had missed me and I had missed her! (As a side note, we attended her SGM church during that visit. It was the first time in many years we had been in that environment. The man who preached was instrumental in our demise. The spiritual atmosphere was oppressive. When you have been removed from it for a season, then revisit, the error is glaringly obvious. Oh, how the Lord met me! I was able to shut out all the oppression, open my heart to Him and WORSHIP with great thanksgiving! There was absolutely no fear. That’s when I knew for sure, I was healed.)
Not too many years later, things began to unravel for my sister in her SGM church. She has her own story to tell and I will leave that to her, but suffice it to say, she was severely disillusioned and wounded. How grateful I was that God had helped me work through my offense, allowing our relationship to be restored prior to this difficult time, so I could love and support her and her children in any small way.
As I think back on it, my sister was in a precarious position when we were dismembered from the church. She loved me, but was married into a prominent family. Imagine the tug of war that she went through initially before she disappeared entirely into the culture. I have much more compassion for the position she was put in now than I did then.
Anyway, I say all that to say, everyone’s advice to you to keep loving her and communicating the best you can is sound in my opinion. It will take grace from the Lord and skill in wielding your shield of faith to quench the firey, self-righteous, “we’re doing it right and you’re not” arrows. We will join you in praying for her eyes and heart to be opened sooner rather than later. Blessings!
Hello everyone. I would encourage everyone to go to CFC’s website and download Jared Mellinger’s message from yesterday (6/7/2009). I know that some of you will get a kick out of his message. The web site is http://www.covfel.org.
Go to about half way through the message and listen to how he speaks of what pastoral conduct looks like and how concerns over doctrain and leadership are handled. Pay paricular attention to the part about the love, care, and gentleness that the pastors show for their flock. I am beside myself right now at the boldness this man has in professing this! This has never been my experience with these men. PLEASE listen to it….. :huh
Betrayed,
Never heard this guy preach, but wasn’t impressed. He does the nose “in-snort” like CJ does I noticed. Quite Annoying.
And he sounds effiminate.
not an effective public speaker at all…maybe they should send these young PC grads to Toast Masters after they graduate their intensive 10 month training…now that is a thought.
Hi Juli,
Better yet, maybe they should send them to get his eyes checked or to get a a Psych eval. He (and the rest of the men folk graduating the PC) is either honestly believing what he is preaching, needs an eye exam to really see what is going on in the church, or he is preaching a “feel-Good” message to the church to further disillusion them and make them believe that the pastors really do care for the flock…… My thought is that the latter is true…..
I don’t know if this is funny or pathetic, but I’m putting it out here to prove my point : I said to Erin on June 6th that SGM reads these blogs, which we all know, and that they found out who I was, etc etc..and to be careful cause someone somewhere is SGMville was already placing her identity because she mentioned knowing someone being considered for pastor’s college.
what’s today? June 10th? On June 8th, just TWO DAYS after my comment, Craig Cabbanis (or Craig Cabannis, however you spell it), the regional apostle for Texas, linked to my blog from here on this thread…and spent a considerable amount of time reading all my posts related to SGM, and even did a nice little search of his own name…..
Just to put this in perspective – I left SGM April 2008…I am nobody and was nobody in teh SGM world….I don’t talk to anyone from the church anymore except for a few families who are not pro-SGM anyway. Yet I still have numerous people from this area, not to mention Craig, and SGM and CLC visiting my stupid little blog. And I rarely even post anymore.
They are still trying to figure out who is who…and they know they can get more “scoop” on these blogs than they can in the churches!
They LOVE these blogs.
Wow, that is a bit weird…scary…funny…I can’t think of the right word. Hope they are blogging on their own time! Hate to think of the tithes going to pay for blogging breaks…
Thanks for the encouragement all, it’s good to hear some similar stories with my sister and I. Canary, I appreciate you saying that telling her these things won’t help. I struggle with wanting to set truth on the table, and let the light get to it- something in my soul wants to scream “I won’t look the other way, because this is not ok!” But I know that my job is not to point out where she’s wrong, it’s to intercede for her. Still, I wonder when we’re called to say “This is not OK.” I feel there’s a time for this too- but that decision is the Lord’s, really.
Gracie, your story is truly relatable to me. Like you said, I need the Lord to be before me so I don’t react to the arrows that she’s shooting. But the idea that reconcilation could be possibile makes it easier to keep fighting for her.
So then, another question: how do you keep loving someone when conversations are dead-ends? I don’t know practically what loving means when the conversations are an “Everything’s good” from her end, and that’s all. They have truly succeeded in shutting down the person of my sister. There are no dreams, no struggles, no desires- what do you say??
The other thing that was eye opening to me was the warnings that I heard in Juli’s first post to me. I don’t doubt the fact that control tactics occur at SGM, but I’m struggling to understand. I mean, it’s present day America- I am more independent than women have been, ever. So how can such fear and manipulation still work? Please help me see my sister’s thought process- it does NOT make sense to me. What keeps her from seeing she’s being told what to think? Or if she knows, WHY would she be fine with it??
I just have so many questions that she can’t answer for me. I appreciate your prayers and encouragement deeply. It’s really the first time I’ve been able to talk about it- my support system can’t grasp what she’s gotten into or see the severity of it. I’m aching inside, and haven’t known how to articulate why it’s so heart-wrenching and you all understand why that is. Thanks.
Erin,
I know Gracie will have some good insight for you. Something comes to mind when you ask how to love when the person seems to think everything is fine. What you are seeing is that your relationship with your sister has become shallow, two dimensional. She won’t share her life with you because you are an “outsider” in her mind. It is nearly impossible to get too familiar or deep with a person filled with leaven, who won’t think for herself. She believes strongly that she is living a full life in her church, that her leaders are holy men, and that she is in a safe place where her walk with God will be the best it can be.
This is all an illusion. You sense that, right? You so much want to make her understand! I don’t think she will, until the Lord opens her spiritual eyes and ears. You might have to put up with a shallow relationship until this happens. It’s hard, but there seems to be no way around this.
I believe that the reason we give up our freedom in Christ is either ignorance, fear, or pride. Ignorance of the true good news that set us all free, fear that we won’t be pleasing to God unless we follow the holy men (who can be very charming), and pride because we are attracted to the supposed success of SGM. There may be other reasons, but these three are the ones I saw in my own life. Yep, all three. I was once in the cage where my kitty now resides. I stand today as a free bird!
God bless you, Erin. Keep hope and faith alive. I’m no one special except to my family, and yet the Lord intervened in a miraculous way to loosen my chains of slavery to the traditions of men. It can happen to anyone, even your sister. Grace to you.
Juli, you have a beautiful blog. Your Spirit is lovely. Your heart is very evident.
I pray that those who visit to “use” you to find dirt are thwarted in their plans and are struck by your (and the Lord’s) love. I pray that they see and hear truth. I pray that their eyes be opened.
Jim,
At what point in time do we name names and churches? Anyone coming to this site isn’t going to have a clue that MAYBE they are talking about the church that I am attending. We are calling SGM out by name in this blog. Why not call out some of these pastors who SHOULD NOT BE LEADING a church? Do we need to start another blog and call it “SGM: Here are the Pastors that have ruined lives!” …
Here is my reasoning. SGM did not change AT ALL until these blogs started to pop up. Now, PTL, they appear to want to change. However, until you get the rotten apples out of the basket there will still be problems. Call them out by name!
Mike
Hi Mike,
I’ve used a lot of names here. I think it’s appropriate.
If someone wants to summit an account to be a main post, I do my best to verify before I post.
Bottom line, if someone can back up what they say, they should feel free to name names.
30Years-
I deleted your comment as this is a correction free zone. Feel free to re-post elsewhere.
Sorry, thanks for letting me know.
No worries… there are two threads that I guard really closely. Please continue to speak your mind.
Jim
Thank you, thank you, thank you.
30 … If I offended you I apologize. I don’t want to drag men through the mud mindlessly and without heart but I do believe that pastors that will not repent, are not humble, are controlling and who have/are hurting the Lord’s children should be reprimanded publicly for it. It’s NOT going to happen in the church. This is the only means of doing so.
A note to all … I know I would appreciate knowing names and churches. I’m still in a SG church. If this is happening in my church I want to know. Maybe the pastor will read these posts and repent. Maybe CJ will read these posts and ask his team to repent … maybe, just maybe this blog will finally draw light on to a church that I truly believe Jesus wants to use for His glory. Not for the glory of men.
Hello Jim… Please forgive me if I am kicking a dead horse here. I have been following this thread all day on my Blackberry and found two statement/questions that someone wrote that are very near and dear to my heart. I would like to give them some thought if possible…
The first statement is: “All members are well taught in the intro class…”
The fact is, yes we were taught solid doctrine in the exploration classes. Although all of the churches beliefs were covered, it was never stressed which doctrinal points the church weighed on more heavily than others.
For example: We are taught that we are sinners, all of us. Jesus came to earth, died on the cross and arose in 3 days to save the world (us) form our own sins. The Gospel says, and I believe, that our sins were paid for on the Cross. The Word of God also tells us that although our sins have been forgiven, we will continue to walk in this body of sinful flesh until the time of perfection. The Word also tells us that by the Holy Spirit we are convicted of our sins and as true believers, through the conviction of the Holy Spirit, will confess and repent of our sins. This is truth!
So, herein lies the problem: Although this may have been taught along with many other doctrinal beliefs and truths, my experience has been that my SGM church focused in on and weighed more heavily the fact that we are still walking in this body of sinful flesh. After being in the church a while, I realized that the “humility” that our pastors were looking for came not from the great debt of gratitude we have toward the Savior and His kindness but through the constant dwelling (I wouldn’t even call it “conviction,” that is for the Holy Spirit) on our current sin. To me, it seemed that no weight was given to the joy that we should be feeling because of our great Salvation and the Grace and Mercy God showed us. No emphasis was ever put on our debt being paid for sins past, present, and future. It seemed that we were always kept at bay and “humble” not out of gratitude and joy, but by constant consciousness and fear from our indwelt sin (judgement).
It is like teaching people that the church’s beliefs are that they like to eat, drink, and sleep. After about a year there, you realize you haven’t eaten, you haven’t drank, but all you have been doing is sleeping. Stress was put on the sleeping but not on the other two beliefs. It is all about where the emphasis lies in the day to day practices of the church. What was spoken at the intro classes was truth but only one or two aspects of this truth was emphasized.
The second set of questions were: “Does the pastor suddenly change, become a different person in that office? Do his convictions change once the counseling begins? Is the pastor always abusive? Is he only abusive to certain, select people? Does this pastor show any compassion at all?”
All I have to say is YES! I am not a man of absolutes or generalities but YES, they are different people behind closed doors! What is preached, what you see in fellowship circles, and the behavior you see in public is, in my experience (and obviously many, many others here) NOT what is practiced and counseled behind closed doors. It is almost frightening to see how opposite my closed door experiences were with ALL of my SGM pastors.
I asked people to listen to Jared Mellinger’s (CFC) message from two Sundays ago only for the fact that what he preached on that day about the care, love, compassion, and tenderness that the pastors showed for the flock was absolutely false, false, false!!! I was not even given a kind word, not one! I could not believe he would preach so boldly about pastoral love for the flock when I have spoken to so many that have experienced such lack of it. The very odd thing is that he is well aware of the concerns of those that came forward but he has NEVER given an answer or attempted to give them closure in any way. MUCH, much effort was given by those that were wronged to justify relationships with the pastors. They were all primarily told that it was their “pride” and “inability to see their own sin” that was their problem. No love, no Jesus. No Jesus, no love!!
Many, many Blessings my friend and brother in Christ
Mike,
My experiences were with the Fairfax church and the Charlotte church. Benny Phillips, Brent D, and Mickey Connelly. Don’t know if I spelled the names correctly, as I have been out of SGM since 1997. If any of these men find and contact me, I will tell all on this blog. It will be made public, no behind-closed-doors discussion. Not this time…
Moderated
30years-please scroll to the top of this tread an read my original post.
Say what you have to say, but not in this thread.
30 Years … your comments were automatically sent to me in my email account so I’ll kindly respond to them …
The ONE thing I think that you are not realizing is the ONE thing that SGM is Great at doing … Looking at the sin of the person who was sinned against!
I agree … one must be careful when laying out names and churches on a blog. However, there are MANY SGM pastors, not ALL, that have been horribly cruel in the treatment of the Lord’s children. They WILL answer for it before the throne.
My goal in naming names and churches is so that other brothers and sisters in those churches “raise their antenna’s” and be strong enough to know when true correction is being brought to them versus a man’s selfish, non-caring, non-humble, ignorant and hurtful “correction”.
I’ve read some accounts here on the blog and the other blogs that I believe the people writing them WERE wrong. Even so, HOW they were discplined/corrected was equally if not sometimes MORE wrong than what was done. Discipline and correction IS a part of the church. However it has to be done so carefully and with the one desire of helping the person get right with the Lord.
You wrote “Bring on the changes that are needed to fix what needs fixing. Confront respectfully, with God’s grace, and do it privately. Do it in ways that will make a difference. This kind of forum will not do it.” … I COMPLETELY disagree with you. It’s obvious that you never have ran in to a situation with your pastor(s) in which you did bring something … multiple times … and humbly … completely disregarded you. You never had the tables turned on you when you were seeking to glorify God’s Kingdom by trying to help your pastor and then have him take the entire discussion and focus on YOUR sin have you? … This forum is the last resort to many of us who have done what you have suggested to do in private. SGM has made it a PATTERN across the churches to not answer to the laypeople of the church that they are supposed to be serving. They do not and will not listen to the people within their church. Just the bosses above who don’t have a clue to how the pastor is acting with his people nor to what the issues are within the local congregation.
I pray that God does change the hearts of the pastors and leaders within SGM. I also pray that God USES these blogs to do so. I am more concerned about the people of SGM than I am about propping up the leaders. It’s fairly obvious to me that there are a lot of pastors in SGM that DO NOT care for their sheep. There are some that are GREAT! However, there are WAY too many of them for me to think that there isn’t something really wrong with SGM. Here is what I believe needs to happen:
1) CJ and the team need to confront this headon and address these issues across the entire spectrum of churches. Fully make it known to everyone in all of the churches that they have led poorly in a number of areas and specifically acknowledge that they are repenting for the terrible things that have happened.
2) Individual pastors need to go back and find those that they have sinned against (in their churches and those that have left) and ask for forgiveness.
3) Going forward SGM should give the laypeople of the churches the ability to have have their pastors removed from the pulpit.
Please remember. The CJ, the team and all of the Pastors are the LEADERS. THEY have to set the example. THEY have to show the flock how it is supposed to be done. If they want to preach humility, kindness, gentleness and love then do it to those that they are supposed to be leading and protecting!
In the meantime, I want people to name pastors and churches. When doing so be careful to not drag in anyone who doesn’t deserve to be dragged in. For myself, I have had a number of run-ins/issues with my pastor. He humbly has repented and is truly growing in the Lord. I love him dearly and would not want to drag his name on to the blog because he has heard the Lord …at least in my case. Now, if he has caused significant issues elsewhere and has truly hurt someone in the church and will not address his sin then PLEASE post it out here. This can ONLY help.
If any of these men find and contact me, I will tell all on this blog. It will be made public, no behind-closed-doors discussion. Not this time…
:::::: applause :::::::
:*
Ellie,
In all kindness … don’t hold your breath. I have less than 1% faith (< 1%) that any one will contact you and ask for you to discuss the issue. The ONLY thing this blog can do is to bring to the attention of CJ what is/has happened and then have CJ bring the correction to his teams and then teach them about repentence.
To all the newcomers to the blog:
- There are some serious issues in the churches of Soverign Grace Ministies. A very strong pattern of verbal and mental abuse from pastors to people in their churches.
- Some, not all, of the pastors are cruel to SOME of their people that they are leading and tremendously lack humility and have not led them as Christ has instructed them to lead the church. Read through the blogs. There are many things that have happened in which pastors should have been fired. These are not isolated issues in one or two churches, but have happened in the vast majority of the SGM churches in the United States and overseas. Thus, the leadership of SGM has allowed pastors to abuse those in the church.
- There are also some GREAT things happening in the churches of Soverign Grace Ministries too. This is what makes everything so perplexing sometimes. One day you think it’s the best place on the planet to worship the Lord. The next day, if you find yourself on the wrong end of the pastor’s thought/belief/direction,etc., you will feel as though you have entered the twilight zone.
- For the most part, not everywhere, not everytime, if you disagree with your pastor you are in trouble (even if you do so humbly). This is where the slippery slope starts with them. If you don’t “get in step with them” then you will be the recipient of their wrath and this is where the mistreatment begins.
- The reason this and OTHER blogs exist against Soverign Grace Ministries is because all of the appeals, requests, meetings, etc. that have fallen on deaf ears for years and years and years. This is why you are reading it here for all to see on the web.
- The goal of these blogs is for other people in the church to start reading about them, start asking questions and to put pressure on the leaders TO CHANGE!
Note: I still attend a SGM church. I love my pastor. I love what SGM wants to do. However I CAN NOT keep on allowing them to hurt our brothers and sisters in Christ time after time after time. This HAS to stop.
Mike,
I know a couple of SGM pastors who have recently cleaned up some unfinished business. Both used the same term, referring to themselves, “I was wrong.”
Praying that this posture is spreading through the movement. I heard stories of some other pastors responding humbly to observations brought to them. One of the men I only know by reputation, but it’s seems that he’s been much more reasonable lately.
I’m hoping that the “moving on” thread will fill with stories of reconciliation. I’ll have my own story to tell soon.
Mike,
I may be wrong but I believe Canary wasn’t referring to former leaders contacting her in order to reconcile…
Back in 1997, she kept quiet and didn’t “gossip”. The blogs didn’t exist. We didn’t have each other. I do believe she was issuing a warning.
…correct me if I’m wrong, my feathered friend…
…I don’t have much faith in CJ teaching anyone about repentance…sigh…
Ellie,
You are right. Revealing the names of my ex-pastors might actually reveal who I am, if pieces are put together correctly. I just wanted them to know that I will not hide what happens or what they say if, by a small chance, they do contact me. I have learned the true meaning of “gossip” since we left in 1997. If anyone wants to take me on, it will be all of us, not just me. I’m just saying…
Maybe this is cathartic for me. My story is on this blog for all to read. Now, I have given names. I’m not weak like I was when the leaders listened to false reports about me and my husband, when they talked about us behind our backs, supported a very ungifted CG leader instead of asking us relevant questions, and showing us the door if we wouldn’t support their “vision”. I know now that it was wrong of them not to listen sincerely to our pleas for understanding, to assume that somehow we were trying to usurp their authority (anyone who knows me and my hubby would laugh at that assumption!), and to show visible anger when we wouldn’t just go along with the flow.
Brent and Mickey were involved in this particular meeting. Afterwards, three couples in our care group left the church, not in anger but in desperation to follow Jesus. Our CG leader stepped “down” and the CG was disbanded, I believe. Leadership apologized to our CG for handling the situation badly. We never received a similar apology, which in my mind was duplicious.
I am not bitter. It was the Lord’s tender mercy that He set us free from a very controlling situation. He has healed us, guided us in the faith, and done miraculous things in the past 12 years. No regrets.
I only speak on this blog because of the other saints who still live in bondage to men’s traditions. I wish to see them all find the freedom that is only in Christ. I wish the leaders too, as well. I want to see the sheep led, not driven, loved, not cast aside because they are too weak to keep up, and deeply valued for the gifted brethren that they are.
One at a time, people ARE being set free. Ellie, Juli, INC, I’m speaking of you in particular, my sweet peeps. It has been such an honor to walk with you on your amazing journies. You continue to inspire me to a closer walk with Jesus.
MOVING ON…. HOW?
I know that many of you here have been liberated from SGM for a while. As someone who just left, it is bitter-sweet for me. As much a relief and sense of liberation that I now feel, I feel disconnected from fellowship and “out to fend for myself.” I am visiting other churches but find myself not trusting and not believing what I hear from the pulpit. I ask the Lord to soften my heart and allow me a sense of trust and joy in other churches and in fellowship. My scars are so deep from the betrayal, hosile attacks from my leadership, constant sin-seeking, and lack of love that I experienced in my SGM church. I ask myself if this will ever pass. Will I begin to trust again? What did/does the Lord have for me in all of this?
How does one trust, believe, and MOVE ON after such betrayal? How?
I’m in the same boat as “betrayed”. A year ago I was full-steam in a SGc and had 2 big SGM events on the near horizon. Now I haven’t been to any church since my meeting with an “apostle”. I know that this is not the way it should be.
Betrayed
You asked, “How does one trust, believe, and MOVE ON after such betrayal? How?” My wife and I have been free from SGM’s tentacles for 2 years now! I am FREE for sure. BUT the feelings that are real to you are very normal and confusing in the beginning.
We did NOT try to replace the SGM “church machine” with another brand of a “church machine.” Be sceptical, be suspicious, be careful. Don’t trust them! It is OK to have your feelings. Seek HIM, seek intimacy with HIM. Find renewed LIFE from HIM. Don’t try to anethesize yourself with another group of people just because you feel disconnected. Trust Him to place you and others together, as HE see fit, in His time. Allow this time to be a time of healing and refreshment and a time of reorientation to HIM. Learn to LOVE HIM all over again–WITHOUT the trappings of the “church Machine!!!” You will be amazed.
Relax–trust–walk cautiously–heal!! You will be OK–honest.
Betrayed & newlywndd,
GDiS suggested some great things–most important is seeking after Jesus. I am still healing and going back and forth.
In January, GregC also had several helpful comments. Especially this one.
In one of the random quotes, Jim says:
“Reading the stories of others hurt by their SGM experience brought great healing to Carole and I.
I am not alone, and I am not crazy.”
That’s been really important to me. The encouragement and love here from those who have walked similar paths has been of immense help to me.
Reading also gave me some understanding of what had happened and started to clear my heart and head from the fog. I have found that the Lord has frequently used books for loving and wise encouragement. Here is a place to start. Go to the bottom of the page and several books are listed. Some were in our local library. Ken Blue’s Healing Spiritual Abuse: How to Break Free from Bad Church Experiences was one of the first I read. I underlined and flagged page after page of that one.
Something Canary said to me the other day was also helpful–see the Lord’s mercy in moving you from where you were.
Now you will see the Lord’s mercy in healing you. One thing I am learning in letters written large is GRACE!
A new book I just checked out from the library is Steve Brown’s A Scandalous Freedom. From dipping into it, it looks really good.
Galatians 5:1:
It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.
newlywndd,
Welcome to the site. YOUR ARE NOT ALONE!
I left SG in 1997. There was no blog at the time. There was no help from these beautiful saints who post here. The Living God was so faithful to carry me through, to help with my fears and mistrust of others. He will take care of you. Spend this time outside of “church” to grow deeply in your faith. You are in an oasis, where you can unlearn the bad stuff, and strengthen your true convictions.
Posting on the Refuge has helped me learn to step out in trust again with my brethren in the faith. It hasn’t always been easy, but well worth the risk of being vulnerable to others. I am not as afraid to trust as I use to be. This is a healing site!
Betrayed,
INC and Gratefully Disillusioned have spoken truly. Also, we are here to help you “move on”. Ask us questions, and we will do our best to share our thoughts. We will pray with you. This is a safe place where you can express your thoughts without fear of rejection. No one can come on this particular thread to attack you. Jim will delete any abusive poster. This thread is really a refuge for those who need one. Hugs to you!
Happy Fathers’ Day to Guy, Jim, Travis, Defender, Deleted, Musicman, Unassimilated, 30 years, and all the other dads frequenting the blogs!
Thank you, Jim, for taking good care of us!
Erin,
I know it has been awhile since you last wrote, but I wanted to answer your question as best I can, hoping you are still around to read. What do you say to your sister? How do you communicate with her when she has all the answers and you are wrong? Gently. Very gently. Whether she realizes it yet or not, your sister is doing a serious plate-juggling act. It is not natural for us, as unique, one-of-a-kind created beings, to squish ourselves into some man-made mold, as appealing as that can be to some. Regardless of her confidence, her certainty, her comfort even, that she is doing Christianity right, be assured there is tension there. The Holy Spirit is still around, wooing her, pricking her conscience, reminding her that His is a gospel of GRACE.
I so remember when I was the one convinced SGM was the ultimate expression of Christianity. At times, my in-laws and my own parents would gently challenge me on some of the harsher aspects of SGM training, especially concerning child rearing. I would snap back that my children needed to obey immediately, cheerfully and completely every time or face chastisement. I let my parents and in-laws know in no uncertain terms that I didn’t appreciate them undermining my authority. Yikes. To their credit, they responded to my ungraciousness with patience and gentleness, without harping or badgering. Though I felt confident and certain that I was right, still their questions lingered in my mind and heart. Slowly, I began to think for myself again. Then, I began to question and change.
So much is at stake for these SGM folks. They have invested much. All their time, effort, faith and reputations are wrapped up in the rightness of SGM. They really believe that their leaders stand in the stead of God and are gifted and graced (I almost cannot bring myself to use the word ‘graced’ here) to know better than the laity. They really believe they are safe under the umbrella of their pastors, and therefore, unsafe when out from under it. There is great pride and great fear in their model. Imagine how frightening it will be when the walls begin to crumble because the foundation is flawed. Yet the walls must come down.
I will pray for you, that the Lord will give you wisdom to know when to interject expressions of His Grace into your sister’s life and when to just silently love and pray. Connect with her in this way: remember the relationship of your youth, the good times as children, the family memories, the inside jokes, the bond that sisters have unlike any other. Most likely, you can still reach her there.
Please forgive my tardiness in responding to your earlier post. I hope you’re still out there!
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For some background: My relationship with PDI/SGM began when I was a baby Christian and very vulnerable. I am a former PDI/SGM member although I never signed a covenant agreement. I don’t think they had those back then (1981). I was involved in PDI/SGM until 1994 (?) around the same time that Larry T. left PDI/SGM.
I have been reading many of the stories trying to figure out how I feel about all the stories of abuse/ neglect. In some ways I feel as though I am reading the history of an abusive family. I think that children that come from abusive families are very confused by their situations. Child abuse can come in many forms both physical and mental and on many levels. One reason it’s so damaging is that children don’t understand how wrong their abusers are. Abused children may feel they deserve the abuse, especially when not all the children in the family are being abused to the same extent. Why would some family members be abused and not others? Children don’t recognize abuse for what it is and may feel that Mommy, Daddy, etc. must have some good reason for doing what they do (the abuse). Children are left in confusion because the person that meets some of their needs also causes so much pain. The situation is hard to reconcile, and so it is with PDI/SGM.
I believe that becoming enmeshed with PDI/SGM as a baby Christian was especially damaging. I was not discerning because I was young both in age (20) and Biblical knowledge. Though I studied my Bible, my interpretation was filtered through the PDI/SGM lens and my views of God, Church, family, and myself were distorted. Maybe that’s why, even though I have not been involved in a PDI/SGM church for almost 15 years, I still get a sick feeling remembering my time there. I have been deprogramming ever since.
I have been faithfully attending a wonderful church for about 7 years now (not perfect) and though I am not an official member, I have recently begun to get more involved. Somehow, we (spouse and I) just keep putting off a formal commitment. Our church has never pressured us and there is no mandatory level of involvement. I read a post on the refuge site by someone that mentioned how no church is perfect. I agree. I have gone to a few churches for different lengths of time since leaving PDI/SGM. I was not church hopping, but I also needed to spend some time in a church before I knew whether it was a fit or not. Although none were perfect, I would not hesitate to recommend any of them. In fact, the only church that I have been involved in that I would warn against is PDI/SGM. I would strongly advise against involvement there.
I still run into SGM members sometimes but would rather not. When I see them, I just feel bad. I don’t know how else to put it. I have recently come in contact with some families that have just left the local SGM church. I don’t know the details except that a new pastor was brought in. Even though these families have made the decision to leave, I still prefer to steer clear of them for now. If they have been involved in PDI/ SGM for any length of time, they also have some deprogramming to do. It takes time.
Praise God for His faithfulness. I need God’s never ending grace. It’s new every morning, and I need it every morning.
Pilgrim,
Glad you added your voice to the many. Glad you have also found a church home.
Hello Everyone!
My name is Robyn Stewart Marmon and I have posted in the past under “Journey Girl” and “Mark of the Lion”. IT has been quite awhile since my last post, but I needed to “finish” before I felt it appropraite to share. I grew up in the Chesapeake church (89-99), then moved to the Denver church plant (Under Steve Shank and David Bendinelli) in 99 with my husband (Now ex) Charlie. We started a famiy (I have 4, ages 1-8) and became Care Group Leaders adn eventually served on staff as CHarlie became a “Pastoral Intern”. He was over the “Single’s Ministry” for a few years. Anyways, the last time I wrote my story it was 10 pages. I will not do that here, but what I will do, is open up myself to questions on the TRUTH of what happened. It is my story to share and if you would like to finally get some answers, I will always be here.
It saddens me that to this day, that the truth is still hidden from EVERYONE…sickens me really. But to keep all my dear friends from “Lovingly confronting me” on slander…I invite you into my life to ask. Again, if you are seeking truth and understanding, then it will not be slander, it will be truth and the TRUTH WILL SET YOU FREE! And I am loving living in my new freedom through Christ and swimming in His love.
So there it is….I am putting myself out there. Email me if you have any thoughts, or questions!
Robyn Stewart Marmon
robynmarmon5@hotmail.com
Jim,
Robyn references her story being written in the past. If she included it here, can you give us a link to it. I am interested in what her journey was like.
Thanks
Gratefully Disillusioned…you can email me and i will answer your questions. I just dont want anyone, everyone, to know details of my life just “to know”. I want to share my story, my Journey, I just want to be careful. Hope to hear from you!
Robyn
Robyn,
Maybe my email is stuck there in cyberspace, but I did email you at robynmarmon5@hotmail.com almost 2 hours ago.
Robyn I know your story and it is horrific. I am still shocked every time I think of what happened to you. It is also shocking how much is being covered up in the Denver church – actually out and out lies being told about DB and his retirement. How can supposed men of God be involved in things like this and why don’t the people want to know the truth? Simply shocking!
I am so thankful that you are on the road to being healed and restored by the love and mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ. Be encouraged for He loves you and your children so much. That’s why He brought this great deliverance for you and your children. He will never leave you nor forsake you and He has a hope and a future for you. What the enemy meant for evil, God will use for good.
Why do we reveal what has been covered up? Because Eph 5:11 says that we are to have nothing to do with the unfruitful works of darkness but that we are to expose them. Maybe, just maybe your story will help prevent this type of thing from happening to another woman.
This is not slander and it is not gossp.
Fred,
All I can say is “thank you”. Thank you for your years of prayers, support and love. I am very thankful that God delivered me from my Egypt. Unlike the Israelites, I am not complaining at all. I rejoice in His deliverance and would not go back in a hundred years. Praise God that no scheme of man can undermind His authority. How grateful I am.
Again, thank you for your love!
Robyn
Robyn,
What a joy it is to hear victory in your posts! God is faithful to us. How are the children doing?
Blessings!
Gracie
Hello everyone, I’m back for a visit. I would like some in site on a few matters if anyone would care to share.
It has been about 5 months now that I left the nightmare I lived for 3 years at CFC. Many of my brothers and sisters have reached out to me in genuine love. They are not specifically asking me why I left but are curious. I almost always get asked ”Do you feel that God is calling you to another church?”My answer is always “I don’t know but I do know that He is calling me away from CFC!” I have so many friend in that church that it breaks my heart to leave and to see now what brainwashing they are receiving. Since I left, my heart, my spirit, and my strength in the Lord have grown stronger. I no longer fear the lable of gossiper or slanderer. I have spoken the truth and have told my full story about the pastoral abuse I received for the past few years to all who have reached out to me. I hold nothing back. These brothers and sisters know me and know that I could never make this stuff up. All are amazed but surprisingly, many share similar stories. They just never felt that they could share their stories with anyone out of fear of being labeled or rejected. I was very surprised at how many opened up to me.
In the past few weeks, I have had 3 pastors suddenly have “concern” forwhat happened to me. One of these is the one who primarily dealt me the abuse (spiritual abuse). This man also ran to the other pastors and decided to label me amongst them so that whom ever I spoke to, I was told the same thing and told to go back to the pastor who was dealing me the abuse for counsel. No one would listen or help me. None of these men for three years had not even a kind word to say to me. Now all of a sudden, they are lavishing me with emails, phone calls, and attempting meetings with me. I spoke to one who told me that “they needed to know how to better care for souls in light of my situation.” All is well and fine with that but with the exception of one thing… they acted like they knew none of this abuse was happening to me. I had gone to and poured my heart out to 5 separate pastors who all knew the “offense” I held against the one pastor and the “offenses” I held against the subsequent pastors I had spoken to for help whom all gave me the cold shoulder. They ALL knew my story and now act as if they had no clue. Suddenly, there seems to be “great concern” for me and a willingness to correct themselves.
My questions:
1. Should I believe that these men are genuine and truly want to correct their ways or is it that they want to shut me down or “make nice” with me now knowing that my testimony could be very damaging to their reputations?
I know word has gotten back to them. They know that I was well respected, trusted, and honored umogst the MANY brothers and sisters I had in the church. They also know that MANY are asking why I left.
2. If I do set up a meeting with the pastor/s who dealt me that abuse (who is also acting clueless that I have an offense against him) will it really change anything? I feel that I will once again pour my heart out to them with no result. I believe that the only difference this time may be a smile, maybe (that’s a big maybe) an apology, and “a willingness to better care for souls in the future.”
I truly believe in my heart that whatever I have to say will mean nothing in the end because their thinking is so scewed that they will truly see nothing wrong in how I was abused. The many stories I see on this site make me believe that only a work of God can change their hearts and their tactics.
Should I go forward with confrontation or should I just leave well enough alone and continue my healing process?
Has anyone been asked to meet with the pastors in matters like this who have seen the fruit of that meeting? If so, what is it that I should bring to the table? How do I present my “case?” I have brought scripture in the past that supports my “case” yet is seemingly is shunned.
Any thoughts?
Betrayed – Welcome back! I am so sorry to hear about the spiritual and psychological abuse you suffered from SGM.
My 2 cents -
1) They only want to “make nice” to give the perception that they tried.
2) It won’t change anything. The reputation of sgm is more important to these men than anything else.
Betrayed,
I agree with Freedom! Stay away, you know already how things get twisted, don’t put yourself through any more!
Betrayed
We all know what happened to Lott’s wife when she looked back! Move ahead with The Lord.
I agree with Freedom and Ellie.
N.S.L.B.
Dear ‘Betrayed’,
Praise God He has shown you you are to leave CFC. Again, it is sad to hear of pastoral abuse and disconnect—thankyou for speaking the truth to your friends who ask you.Keep leaning in to hear Jesus—He is delivering you!
Whenever I hear their new “holy catch phrase”, it confirms for me to know the insincerity of their words. Their words to you: “needed to know how to better care for souls in light of your situation.”—Nope, they don’t get it—its a checklist and its chillingly twisted.
Betrayed – this is your Uncle Ted Nugent and I say don’t let ‘em get a STRANGLEHOLD on you again!!!!!!!
Betrayed, if you feel you want to share your story, consider writing it and sending it to Jim who can forward it onward to a Reformed Big Dog and CJ who have asked to be informed of some of the SGM abuse stories. You’ve already told your story to these pastors. You don’t need to continue to cast your pearls before them. Perhaps the only way to “help” these pastors is to tell your story to their “boss”.
Just a thought and something for you to pray about.
And if they continue to pester you, you can tell them that you’ve taken your story to CJ and to please contact him for further assistance.
Thank you all for your thoughts… you have all confirmed my “gut” feeling on this.
Remnant, do you honestly believe, after so many years of these goings on that the leadership at SGM is clueless about the abuses? We all know they read these blogs and that many X-SGMers have met and written to the leadership about the abuse dealt them.
I have recently been re-reading some of the books written by SGM pastors/leaders. In particular and what hit me so close to home is when I re-read When Sinners say I do by Dave Harvey. Dave was the Sr. Pastor at my church for years. As you may already know, he has been promoted and now works for SGM ministries directly under CJ.
In reading the first three or four chapters of his book, it hit me that this man is the biggest advocate for the SGM mind set and ideology. He pounds it in the reader’s heads that they are all still wretches, the greatest of sinners, prideful, and undeserving of anything. He preaches the humility and submissiveness that we must constantly seek in light of our sinful state. One is left with weather that humility and submissiveness should be directed at Christ or towards the pastors. I believe Dave got promoted because he is 100% in line with CJ and the rest of the SGM leadership. He has proven himself by writing a book that preaches their doctrine. There is nothing new in his book. It is the same story I hear in almost every piece of literature I have read from SGM. The wording and the authors are different but the message is the same.
The point I’m making is that if Dave Harvey was promoted, was it based on his rebel stance on SGM doctoring and teachings? No, one would assume that he not only fell in line with CJ and the rest of the SGM leadership’s mindset but was chosen because he is/will be one of their greatest advocates.
Although CJ may not have the particulars of every situation, I am sure that he knows of these abuses. When big companies or the military hear of scandals or abuses in their ranks they have stand-downs, investigations, and implement corrective training and action immediately. Has anyone on this site seen anything of this sort happen at their church? Is it just covered up or blown off? No, I believe that CJ is aware and that he will not do anything about it because he truly believes that he and the leadership are correct in their counsel and dealings. He would also never have the SGM name tarnished.
In my case, it seemed that the pastors dealt with me in a “rubber stamp” kind of way. It seems as if they opened up a SGM manual, went to a certain page and read verbatim from it…”you are seeing others sin more clearly than your own,” “you are judging,” “you are not walking in the truth,” “you are suffering from the sin of unbeliefe,” “what are the patterns of sin in your life,” “you are prideful,” “you must see your own sin first,” etc…. There is no room for common sense or discernment amongst the pastors. They are to counsel and think the SGM way and only the SGM way! This my friend, comes from the top down. There are too many churches and too many pastors involved here for these type of thought processes and abuses to stem from the bottom up (local pastor level). They are pushed from the top (CJ) down.
I hope I don’t sound like a pessimist but I am so tired of fighting… I have no fight left in me when it comes to SGM. I just have to keep asking God for strength and continued healing. All I want is peace. God has always made a way and what I know that what is in darkness will ALWAYS be revealed in the light.
Lastly, if we are now children of God, sons, and new creations, why didn’t Dave call his book something like “When Saints say I do?”
One more comment if I could….
My personal mission in helping to reform is to tell those I love of the abuses dealt me. God has blessed me with many that love and trust me. I believe that my story when told to others will have a greater impact on them. It grieves me to see the brain washing they are undergoing.
My brothers and sisters in the church look up to and trust me. They know I care fro and love them too. They would have no reason to not believe me.
I guess when we have people “questioning” and keeping my testimony in their minds, they may eventually see the truth with their own eyes.
Call it a “grass roots” campaign!
Betrayed asked me: Remnant, do you honestly believe, after so many years of these goings on that the leadership at SGM is clueless about the abuses? We all know they read these blogs and that many X-SGMers have met and written to the leadership about the abuse dealt them.
No. I do not believe CJ is clueless. His actions (or lack thereof) speak that he is unconcerned. His kingdom reigns.
CJ’s silence is astonishing. Can he really be that haughty? Is he truly that mesmerized by power? Does he truly sit so far above the fray that his heart is unable to be touched by the tears of the “lowly”?
I would love CJ to rectify the wrongs. All the wrongs. Done in his name. By his pastors. To his sheep.
For Infromation Sake,
My story and what was happening with my ex was actually kept from all the pastors. I have spoken to all of them and none of them knew. Even Steve Shank who was in the church with us in both Va Beach and in Denver (and was over Bendi) had no knowledge.
That to say, it would not surprise me if CJ knew very little of individual stories. I am sure he assumed (as would anybody who was in SGM) that the people were being cared for and that matters were being handled. I know that is what I always assumed. And therin, lies the danger. I feel like, no one ever asked….we all just assumed it was being taken care of as SGM is a community, a loving circle….How could it not be taken care of? And we just continued to assume the wounded were being cared for. Then when someone would leave, it was always, GOd leading them somewhere else. Protecting the church becomes alomst an idol. We forget that Truth is what we are called to speak. And if truth seperates people, then that NEEDS to happen. We fall so much into “I don’t want to cause people to stumble, or slander against people”, the truth is pushed away and WE allow people to be decived. In the end that is what I did. I thought I was protecting my exhusband, thought I was protecting the church from pain…..and in the end, I allowed them to be deceived. As an ex-pastor’s wife and as a Christian woman, I am horrified with myself and pray God allows truth to come forth. And to be SEEN by CJ.
Robyn Marmon
Betrayed,
If you don’t mind a little more input: it takes times to heal from the painful experiences you’ve had. It takes time and distance. Revisiting the pastors because they suddenly seem “interested” in your situation might do them some good, but it might do you harm.
Perhaps later, when you are stronger and can see more clearly the snares that they use, you can revisit it all, in order to help these men “see”. I wouldn’t go alone, though. Take a few witnesses, people who know of your experience, and can also witness these pastors responses. But for now, your health, both spiritual and physical are too important to put at risk. Let the Lord minister his balm to your heart. Some of us women who left sgm went through depression, sleeplessness, fibromialgia or chronic fatigue. I don’t know if you are suffering any of these things. They are physical signs of the toll this sort of stress has taken on our bodies. It is very important to look after yourself right now.
Remember, time and distance will do wonders for you, especially as you are seeking the Lord and walking in your freedom. There is nothing like liberty in Christ to renew our energy and faith! And nothing can suck it away like going back to where it all happened. As Quizzler so aptly said,
“We all know what happened to Lott’s wife when she looked back! Move ahead with The Lord.”
Also, the question you have about calling ourselves “saints”: I’ve been saying this for a while, since I began to notice how Paul addressed the churches in his letters. In 2Cor. 1:1, for instance, he wrote, “…to the church of God in Corinth, together with all the saints throughout Achaia…” And we all know what sort of troubles the church in Corinth was having. Yet, Paul did not say, “together with all the sinners throughout Achaia.” There are ample verses where Paul addresses the believers as saints. That’s good enough excuse for me to call my brethren “saints”.
Canary,
Yes, there is a difference in our identity when we view ourselves as saint who sin, instead of sinners saved by grace. Oh, I know some of you will have a fit over the parsing here, but the sinner emphasis that I remember in SGM was VERY pronounced. At times in CG, those who could testify of their greatest struggle with sin were the focus of humility and transparency. They were the heroes of the hour! My thinking even then was that, was how odd it all seemed. Often it was the same sin over and over and over.
However, the great “apostle” Gene E. must be hearing form others who read this blog or he is reading it himself because 2 weeks ago he preached a message “…Saints who sin” Who knows? I NEVER heard that type of message in all my years under his “oversight.”
GD,
I never, that I remember, heard anyone speaking of how we are saints, not in SGM. We were always, always forced to focus on our sins and weaknesses. It has been a refreshing revelation to realize that the Lord sees us as His saints. I could list many verses where the believers were addressed as such. I can list none where they were greeted as “sinners”.
I think sin is an action we sometimes fall into. Saintliness is a state of being.
Canary–Yes indeed! Amen!!
GD,
Canary and GD, We too, in our family now love the embrace of walking as ‘saints who sin’—this speaks more of the completed,finished work of Christ on the cross and His Resurrection……..
In regards to Remnants question-Is CJ clueless (about what is happening in ‘his’ churches)…and that CJ’s silence is astonishing. I agree– that is astonishing. For we DO know that he was well informed about Noels case (as documented over on Survivors) and ‘Esthers’ case in Chesapeake. He didnot become involved, speak to, or go inquire of any of those people involved. The blog exposure of abusive pastoral control has perhaps caused him, with the help of the anonymous RBD, to seek out truth. At the same time,the SGM doctrine of “indwelling sin” and the sledgehammer consistency of teaching the sheeples of their depraved sinful state is a mountain of bondage that must be exploded. –C.S. Lewis wrote: “The wisdom behind Jesus’ urging us to love others as we love ourselves (Mark 12:31) would be a horrible command if the self were simply to be hated.” –In being taught to view ourselves primarily as worm crawling sinners, there cannot be a true grasp of our value to our Redeemer and consequently, this unsound doctrine results in dismissing others instead of truly loving them. This has been the common denominator in the stories on Refuge—many pastors arrogant disregard and therefore destructive counsel given to the Brethren. When the focus is on sin management,efficiency,and performance…this is what the leadership requires of their congregants—which is the exact opposite of Jesus’ example of loving others in the parable of the good Samaritan–to “go, and do the same”—Remember the Samaritan mans actions : First, he SAW the broken wounded man—then he bound up his wounds and cared for him—then put him on his donkey and walked him into town. I wonder how many times they stopped alongside the road, as the wounded man needed tending-probably his wounds broke open from the jolting ride—he would have needed continuous diligent and specific care. Then they arrive into town and the Samaritan pays for the wounded mans keep until he is completely restored.—What a wondrous picture of unselfish love and giving of ones self to an unknown wounded person. So, the greatest commandment is not about sin management — thats what I pray CJ and Dave Harvey and Steve Shank and Gene Emerson and Jeff Purswell and Joshua Harris will have the revelation of —and that this Truth will filter into SGM Pastors,cleaning out the virus of the law and unrighteous authority. Watching for this with the discernnment Holy Spirit avails —we’ll know by the (genuine,real) fruit—and fruit takes time……..
Waters,
Very beautifully said. Really, we are dealing with IDEAS, not necessarily men themselves. Men and women perpetuate ideas, whether good or bad, lies or truth. We are also dealing with COMMANDS, the first being “love the Lord with all your heart” and the second, “love your neighbor as yourself”. I failed abismally to do these two things sincerely during my time with PDI/SGM, because I believed what they taught and followed them concerning the sin doctrine they profess. To my shame and ignorance.
One night, my very best friend was going into labor. She called to ask if I would go walking with her until the appointed time. There happened to be a women’s meeting that night, led by J.D. I, being the dutiful sheep, called my cg leader’s wife to “ask permission” to miss the meeting, telling her about my friend. She told me no, that we had all “committed” to this meeting, and should attend.
In later years, I realized that I had comitted to nothing. The comittment had been made for me. Duh. Was my friend also suppose to attend, and have her baby during the teaching? Why didn’t I see that? So, I did not go walking with my friend, who needed me so badly, as I had to obey my “authority”, who knew better what God wanted me to do. Even writing this breaks my heart all over again.
My friend had her baby, and she never held it against me that I didn’t help her out. She was still indoctrinated at the time. Later, she was the one to have her eyes opened first, and then waited as the Lord revealed the truth to me. She could have left SGM, but she stayed to wait for me. Then she was there as I had so many questions, so much pain at the sense of betrayal from people I once trusted like I should have trusted God. We began a journey together that lasted for 3-4 years as we were deprogrammed by the Lord.
I confess this to show how I was culpable in my following the “sin doctrine” instead of the first two commandments. I followed leadership without question, though my conscience told me what was right to do. I did not tend to the “good samaratan” because I had to fulfill a law, a duty that was placed upon me. I couldn’t think for myself. I passed by the good samaratan because I had a meeting to go to!
I do not remove the responsibility that the pastors have in all this. They moved into teaching error. That is their shame to bear. How hard will it be for any of them to see what they have done? Harder than it was for those of us who followed? I think so. That is why it moves me with compassion when leaders are shanked. Will this be their Egypt experience? Will it be their turn to wander the desert, learning to have faith in a way they never had to before? These have been my thoughts lately, especially since hearing of BD’s resignation.
None of us can really know what is going on in CJ’s heart. We can judge by the fruit, but we have to be careful that we don’t make assumptions (not that you were, Waters!). I want to see love prevail through all of this, and to see SGM members, my fellow saints, find their freedom to love God and each other freely. Since this is the “My Story” posting, maybe sharing how following man instead of God effected us, caused us to sin in ways much greater than the ambiguous “pride” sin. Then we can share how we were set free. Personal experiences might register to some who are reading, and help them to see. To be set free.
With a shout, the Lord says, “Let My people go!”
I’m not sure if this is the same accross SGM but at CFC there are no Bible studies. I believe one was started under supervision of a pastor but quickly went away. I believe it lasted only 2 or 3 months.
I find it very odd that this church would basically have no Bible studies yet will MAKE/FORCE every person in the church to read books written by SGM pastors or those whom SGM supports.
I remember everyone at CFC was made to read When Sinners Say I Do by Dave Harvey. They made singles, widows, collage age, and married (even people going through bitter divorces) read it as mandatory reading and discussion in their community groups.
Isn’t there something wrong when a church makes mandatory reading of books by SGM pastors and those who are supported by SGM yet truly makes NO effort to conduct or support reading of the actual Word of God?
I remember volunteering to start a Bible study in my home. I was met with STRONG resistance. I was told that heresy might be taught! No kidding.
When I thought about it, the only direct readings from the Bible are the few short verses that are preached every Sunday morning.
I know of young community group leaders that admit that they hardly ever pick up their Bible. These same people will tell you what SGM book they have just read and the one they are on now!
I also know of those who will hold the pastors words in higher regard than the words of the Bible.
Don’t Jehova’s Witnesess make their people read only their own books?
THANK GOD I’m outta there
Betrayed,
This is not the first time a poster has reported what you experienced. I stopped bringing my bible on Sundays because we never needed it. The same for care groups. The thing is, this is a way to control information, and to control what we are to think and believe.
A man interprets or puts stress on a particular scripture, makes a doctrine of it, then writes a book on it. Members read the book, not the scripture in context nor do they learn the historical significance behind what the scripture means. This is a way to control how we think and what we read. They used fear as they told us that we should not “sit under anyone else’s teaching but theirs” because we might learn heresy. It was another way of controlling our thinking
We were encouraged many times not to go to outside meetings, unless the leaders okayed the teacher. The leaders took authority over us that God had not given them. Bible studies led by anyone but leaders were not allowed. Come to think of it, in all the years of SGM involvement, there were no bible studies that I can remember, except those done with SGM written books.
I think this is just another symptom that comes from leaders believing with extreme conviction that they are responsible for our souls. They take this too far. They do not “stand in the very stead of God”. When I stand before God one day, I will stand with Jesus, not Brent or MIckey, etc. This revelation freed me from over-dependence on leadership. By faith alone will I stand or fall.
A believing man or woman can have authority to speak, but that does not mean that he/she has authority over a person’s entire life. Leaders who think that the Spirit within us cannot keep us from heresy are taking too much of a burden upon themselves. Those of us who followed this belief also lost our own ability to hear from God, and to think for ourselves. We depended too much on a few people to walk our faith out for us. We did what they said. We imitated them. We felt guilt when it seemed impossible to be like them. We forgot that we are to be, by grace, like Jesus. We are to look to Him and become like Him. Being in His presence makes us like Him.
Teaching is important. Caring for God’s people is vital. Ruling over them like the Gentiles is wrong. Paul said so. No man should take the place of our Mediator, Jesus. We should have the choice of what books to read, who we listen to, and where we should live, who we should marry, whether we want to be a missionary, without fear of repercussions from a pastor.
Each individual must learn to follow his/her conscience. Unfortunately, leaders were very good at planting self-doubt within us, so that we could not take steps of faith towards what we believed God wanted. If we did follow what we believed, we were no longer useful. We were expendable.
This is so much like the Shepherding Movement of the seventies and eighties that led to such devistation in people’s lives. Though many pastors repented of their abuse of authority, the leaven was not completely purged from the Church, because here we all, all over again, same ole same ole. Names have changed, new words replace the old ones, but the spirit remains one of bondage to traditions and the rule of men, instead of allowing the saints to walk in their freedom in Christ. Our faith is replaced with utter dependence on a fallible human being. Why do we do this?
It is like Jesus asked: When He returns, will He find faith on the earth?
Canary, you said: “Leaders who think that the Spirit within us cannot keep us from heresy are taking too much of a burden upon themselves. ”
Correct..What about the Holy Spirit? Does He not guide us in all things? Are they (pastors) now the Holy Spirit for us?
You also said: “Each individual must learn to follow his/her conscience. Unfortunately, leaders were very good at planting self-doubt within us, so that we could not take steps of faith towards what we believed God wanted. If we did follow what we believed, we were no longer useful. We were expendable.”
I say again,,100% correct… self-doubt rules in SGM. You are not allowed to think for yourself.. so true. They lead through making you believe that you can’t think or be guided by God on your own. THEY have to do your thinking and guide for you!
Here you go, sound Familiar:
they love to be greeted in the marketplaces and to have men call them ‘Rabbi.’ “But you are not to be called ‘Rabbi,’ for you have only one Master and you are all brothers. And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. Nor are you to be called ‘teacher,’ for you have one Teacher, the Christ.
The greatest among you will be your servant. For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.
Matt 23:7-12
Betrayed,
Good verse. May I ask how long you have been gone from SGM? Is your leaving recent? Forgive me if you’ve all ready said. I haven’t been on the Refuge for a week or so – busy summer!
You know, perhaps I really am a naive tweety, but I just don’t think that CJ and most of the leadership are intentionally seeking their own fame/fortune, as some seem to believe. I think they have moved into error so far, that the leaven has so invaded their teachings, that they simply do not see the damage they do. “Once I was blind, but now I see.” I can say that of myself.
Even the pastors I was following I don’t believe intentionally betrayed myself and my husband. Their beliefs did. Our own ignorance did. The authority doctrine, the same sort that saturated the Shepherding Movement, plus the constant sin focus massacred our faith and killed our joy in the Lord.
As you said, it’s great to be free of it all! And how can we stay silent while our fellow brethren continue to be led about like horses in harness? I don’t mean to be unkind at all, just honest. Where once I was blind, now I can see. I am so very, very grateful to God.
Betrayed-
I’m sorry for the pain you’re going through and the abuse/neglect you’ve endured at CFC.
It sounds like nothing has changed since my family left in the 90′s and may have gotten worse.
Thanks for posting….
peace to you-mm
Canary:
I “officially” became a member in 2006. I had been coming to that church for much longer though. My whole family goes there to this day. I posted that I had made the decision to leave back in June. My post from June 2nd is below. You actually posted and gave me words of encouragement..thank you
You said something I was trying to say in an earlier post about the SGM “ideology” or “doctrine” coming from the top down to the local pastors. This is what they are taught..some from birth.
You said: “Even the pastors I was following I don’t believe intentionally betrayed myself and my husband. Their beliefs did. Our own ignorance did. ”
I want to put the emphasis on “Their beliefs did.” I too do not believe that these men betrayed me intentionally. I truly believe that their SGM doctrine trumps the Word of God. The Bible so clearly opposes their thinking. They believe themselves! How you can interpretthe two greatest commandments to mean constantly seeking out your own sin, as an example, is beyond me! CONSTANT Sin seeking is not repeated throughout the new testament as is the message of love!
Below is my first post here on Refuge. I do want to write a more detailed story and post it. I just don’t want to re-live the hell they put me through in writing the details…YET! I assure you, they will be posted one day!
One thing I did fail to mention in my original post was that not only did the pastors constantly tell me to “seek out my own sin,” and did absolutely nothing to love me or encourage me.. they actually sided with my X-wife who is not a member, nor is she a Christian, left me for a drug addict/felon, and filed for divorce and 8 court actions against me (I filed not one thing against her),
Yes, they supported her and turned the tables on me… The one pastor was meeting with my X during this whole mess without my knowledge. She was slandering me and he believed every word she said. I would show him court documents and other evidence to prove that she was lying, he still sided with her. He would write me NASTY emails and copy her. She was using the emails against me in court. Even though I told him she was doing so, he continued to send the emails. (Just an FYI…not once did he bring up her sin, not once!!)
This same pastor also decided that he wanted to share what happened behind closed doors in counseling with third party members of the church. Specifically, a 25 year old young man that I had become friends with. Out of concern for me (bitterness towards the pastor/s), the young man set up an appointment with the pastor to speak about me. I had no knowledge of this at the time. This young man is NOT in any leadership/pastoral role in the church by the way.
I have no clue why any pastor would have agreed to set up an appointment with any third party to discuss my divorce or marital counseling. This individual was told intimate details about closed door counseling between my wife and me. He was told the lies my wife had said about me. The ones that the pastor believed. I was beside myself when I heard words spoken behind closed doors come out of this young man’s mouth. Again, it was weeks later that I found out that this meeting had occurred.
This pastor had broken the golden rule of counseling..both secular and Christian!!!
There is so much more..it would make your head spin. I couldn’t make this stuff up…even if I wanted too!
Funny, I was re-reading my original post below and sensed such anger in my tone. God has soothed my soul in these past few months. My bitterness is residing and my heart is reveling in the joy of Christ again.
One last thing: Only by Gods mercy and Grace… nothing in any court action presented against me was upheld. As a matter of fact, even though I filed nothing against her (all I did was defend myself) I got almost everything I had asked for from the courts. Especially, my two beautiful kids
After the divorce, my X and I had not spoken a word for almost five months. I finally asked the judge to order co-parenting counseling and he did.
Amazingly, it took a secular counselor one meeting with us to get us back on talking terms. In three meetings with her, you would have never known we were ever at odds with each other. We now get along better than ever. I wonder sometimes if we had gone to this secular counselor before the divorce if we’d still be married. All I got with the pastor/s was “You’re a sinner,” and “you’re seeing her sin more clearly than your own,” and “seek out your own sin first!” etc… hummmm?
Betrayed
June 2nd, 2009 at 12:19 am
I want to thank God and you all for this web site and your support for each other. I have finally made the decision to leave the mad house that I called my church. I honestly believed that I was going crazy until I found this and other sites where others have experienced exactly what I have experienced.
I have learned that ALL of the pastors at SGM are alike. They are all taught the SGM doctrine not the doctrine of love and mercy that Jesus commanded us to show for one another. They believe that our indwelt sin is the be all and end all. They truly believe themselves to be “ordained” directly by God and would have you believe that their “wisdom” and “counsel” is God speaking directly through them. Let no one dare question their counsel….
I believe that this “doctrine of sin” they so strongly emphasise and the emphasis that is put on humility and submission to pastoral leadership are subtle forms of brain washing. Over time and as one gets immersed in the SGM culture, the subtleties start going away and the blatancies start emerging. The scary thing is that the irrational things one sees and the blatancies start becoming “normal.” You have sold out to your own logicalthinking and the wisdom God has given you illogical SGM ideology.
My issue lies with the fact the anything and everything that happens to you is a reflection on your own indwelt sin.
My story (in a nut shell) is that while going through Alpha and Beta with my unbelieving wife, she left me for a known felon and 13 year addicted drug user that was a member of our group. This man was from a local ministry that ministered to drug addicts. The small group leader for our Alpha and Beta groups was the actual pastor who ran the Alpha program.
As a member of the church (my wife wasn’t), I sought counsel form the pastor who was my small group leader. I believed at the time that he and I had become very close. He knew all of the players and the situation. He refused to counsel with me stating that “he was too close to the situation” (is he supposed to be “far” from the situation to better counsel or serve me?)
In my grief and state of confusion at how my whole life had just been turned up side down, I sought counsel from a family life pastor that my wife and Ihad been seeing. Too my horror, the counsel I got from him and subsequently every other pastor in the church was that I was seeing her sin more clearly than my own. I was told to focus on my own sin and nothing but my own sin! Not once did I ever get a word of encouragement, an email, or anything that even remotely resembled love from these men. For three years during the worst trials I had ever gone through in my life, I saught those that were supposedly my ”leaders” for answers, biblical guidance, and yes, a kind word. All I got was my own indwelt sin thrown back in my face!
For three years, I could not even be afforded a kind word from those men that I believed would love me like Jesus commanded. In three years of humbling myself and going back to them for guidance to get me through my darkest times, the only counsel they gave me was to seek out my own sin…. to stop looking at other’s sins more clearly than my own, and to not judge others….
For three years, those that I thought were my brothers in Christ, who would be loyal to a fellow believer turned their backs on me in my darkest times.
Shame on you SGM for raising such men that will lay such heavy burdens on us with the emphasis on “our own sin” yet not lift a finger or even say a kind word to those going through the worst of trials. What hypocrisy, what hypocrisy….
May God forgive you “shepherds” of CFC…….
Betrayed,
I’m so grateful for your story. Yours and the stories of everyone else is comforting me as I’m going through basically what you went through.
I’ve been at CFC for two years, and its been two years too long. Their culture of defeatism and constantly beating us over the head with our own sin has taken its toll on my spiritual life and personal life. For the longest time, I was convinced that it was just me. Maybe I wasn’t praying right or I was doing something wrong. But I’ve recently come to the realization that its not me…its SGM. CFC’s worship is downright depressing. I want to go to church to celebrate what God has done for us! I love music from Matt Redman for instance. Its just constant praises to God in his music, whereas just about all of the SGM songs focus around how bad of a sinner we all are.
Upon my confrontation with some of the leaders of the church regarding my contention with the general demeanor of the church as well as large portions of their “scriptural doctrine”, I was reminded of my own sinful nature several times by them. I’m tired of it, and I’m ready to move on. My fiance is seeing this firsthand for herself too. Members at CFC and SGM as a whole are more concerned with their church’s survival and appearance of integrity, that its handling of severe issues are unacceptable and swept under the table so as to not be brought to the attention of everyone else.
Voicing my contentions with the church has resulted in a ton of lost friendships, spiritual depression, issues brushed under the table, and now my fiance and I are in the horrible position of preparing for a wedding when we no longer have a church to have it in, and a majority of people that were going to be in our wedding will now have nothing to do with it.
I’m praying for everyone that has been subject to problems like these. I pray that God opens the eyes of the rest of the blind faith churchgoers at CFC, and that CJ and the rest of the group would see the error with what they are doing. SGM churches are just too hard to like
Betrayed,
I’m sorry I didn’t see your email earlier. I subscribe to “My Story” but somehow didn’t get the alert that someone had posted. Or I did and I missed it. Anyway, I didn’t want you to think that my lack of response was because of lack of interest!
The pain and betrayal you went through must have been nearly unbearable. Glory to our Living God that you have survived, and that He was your defense. I am glad that you have found some peace with your X wife through a wise counselor. It is sad that there was no pastoral “care” given to you, even a hug and a “I’m praying for you”. I honestly think that the pastors spread themselves so thin that they can really miss seeing the wounds in people, and just how deep they go. Didn’t someone post on here that leaders were told to help the strong and pray for the weak? Boy, what Bible do these men read???
Anyway, you keep trusting the Lord, Betrayed. One day you will change your name here, as others have, to reveal the true and wonderous healing from the Balm of Giliad!
Goodfellow,
I hope you don’t mind if I respond to you since your post was for Betrayed. I wanted to tell you that I had the big PDI/SGM wedding with all the trimmings, twenty-five years ago. There were over two hundred church members besides my family and outside friends. To this day, my wedding is not my happiest memory. Thank God my marriage has been such a success.
The whole wedding was treated like a church meeting. I was later so embarrassed for my unbelieving office friends who had to sit through the Charismatic worship and then a long sermon from my pastor on the things my husband and I needed to grow in (I was told not to let my looks go after marriage – I kid you not!). I felt for these folks who had been invited to see me get married, and instead were put through the uncomfortable ordeal of a church meeting they had no knowledge they were going to attend. When I think about that day, I still wince.
I tell you that to tell you this: those folks who won’t attend your wedding weren’t really your friends. You don’t want them there. Have a wedding that your future bride will remember with joy and fondness for the rest of her life. It doesn’t matter how big or small it is, just that it celebrates the union of two saints who will cherish each other for the rest of their lives. That’s what is important!
If I sound like “Dear Abby”, forgive me. I wish you and your girl all of God’s blessings as you begin your new life together! From a very sincere Canary
Goodfellow, I agree with Canary! Your real friends will come anyway and the others don’t matter. A few GOOD friends are better than having alot of fake ones.
Too bad there wasn’t a way that some of us refugees could get together and go see you get married!
Betrayed,
“I want to put the emphasis on “Their beliefs did.” I too do not believe that these men betrayed me intentionally. I truly believe that their SGM doctrine trumps the Word of God. The Bible so clearly opposes their thinking. They believe themselves!”
It’s all so crazy, isn’t it?? I am glad to hear that things are going better in your family and that the secular counselor was able to help you and your ex-wife! That will make things easier for your children, I’m sure they love you both. God bless you & your whole family!!
i don’t know how to leave the sg church i attend. i have just been reading the sg survivor site and now this one. our church became an sg schurch last year. wow, there have been sooooo many changes and i can’t think of one good. well, we moved locations and i guess that was good. but we lost one of our pastors, it seems for no good reason. and the leaders in the church seem like a gestapo. some of our members left to start in new sg church. i feel like my church which used to be so live has become numb.
You are fortunate that you have a healthy church background. That is why these changes are making you uncomfortable.
Without a lot of detail here, I can’t say much other than do some research. At the time I was leaving PDI (what SGM used to be called), they were more often than not listed as a group to be concerned about by national cult-watch groups. Not as a full-blown cult, but usually as a group that was problematic. The best resource I found was a group in Athens Ohio called Wellspring Retreat. Their website had more information available then, but you may be able to call them and talk to someone.
Since SGM is new to your area, the local counselors may not be aware yet that there are people who are leaving with anxiety, rifts in their families and the like. I know that the counselors that I went to for help were aware that too many people were leaving the PDI churches with issues that were out of the ordinary. Wellspring also referred me to a cult expert in my area who understood and could help my family.
Trust your gut. Don’t let them make you doubt your judgement. You say you don’t “know how to leave.” Why? Are you being pressured or being taught something that makes you afraid to find another church? Are you being threatened?
This is my first post here. I attended a PDI church many years ago (’84 to ’89) in California and started attending from the ground up. I was one of the first to join the 6-7 families or so who relocated from Convenant Life. I’m amazed how all the stories I read here resonate with what I experienced years ago. The apostolic-to-pastoral-to-member authority, the doctrinal purity, the discipline of children (families were expected to be super well-behaved), sin seeking, the home group discipleship, and more. Perhaps the sheparding-type stuff wasn’t there, but the seeds for it certainly were. It was very subtle spiritual abuse going on with the constant calls for getting certain teachings (especially when CJ and Tomczak showed up), and submit to the church program/teaching, which was being billed as the authentic NT church model. It took me several years to realize we were all becoming clones, and elitist ones at that.
Our church was probably the black-sheep of the PDI church family in those days, I’m sure, because it attracted so many mission-minded folks from Fuller Seminary and another mission school. Us mission folks knew from experience or mission training that healthy church planting only happens when local leaders and members are free to express the gospel message with a local/cultural expression and have a high degree of local autonomy. Of course, this clashed with the doctrine of apostolic authority big time. To make a long story short, things came to a head after we sent a team to the Philippines and the team and the mission-minded Mission Director realized after only about 6 months on the mission field that PDI had every intention of forcing a top-down authority structure, not only on the California church, but the newly planted Filipino church, even though the “apostles” from DC were absolutely clueless about Filipino culture or cross-cultural ministry. There was a huge misunderstanding–but I really want to say a conscious choice on the DC leadership’s part not to try to understand–and people were grossly misled. At least 4 families had invested 2 years into this program and were under certain impressions and when they realized how authoritative things were, they crashed, burned, quit, and some, sadly, couldn’t return to any church at all. Eventually there was a huge church split (after my wife and I had left) and half the church left (including most of the founding families) and half remained within PDI.
From my perspective, the root of most of this is what I call Bible abuse–when usually well-meaning people misuse scripture for a purpose that it wasn’t originally intended. The literalist approach to the Bible reinforces this, so if Hebrews says “obey your leaders,” well one better apply that strictly because it is God’s word for the church today and every practice and belief of the church better line up with what the scriptures teach. Trouble is, the Bible never claims to be a strict set of timeless maxims but a story of God’s love for humankind and how Christ brings good news of this to all.
My journey has brought me out of evangelicalism altogether, while still having a respect for some moderate and progressives views within the movement. What I believe now would probably shock most who post here; I hope you don’t mind if I participate. I do feel a kinship with everyone because of our shared experiences. (On the church, I would be closest to Frank Viola’s views.) PDI and SGM are only one example of the legalism that is pervasive in conservative evangelical or charismatic churches.
It’s refreshing to hear people share their stories and how they have become aware of emotional and spiritual abuse and are taking steps to overcome it. My advice is don’t let anyone control you in the name of biblical authority or obedience to God for the true gospel is that everyone has freedom to relate to God on their own within the dictates of their own conscience and reason. If you feel controlled, then that is not of God. If you feel compelled to do or believe something that clashes with your own reason, then you shouldn’t do it. God is much more full of grace than we could ever imagine and is not advocating a navel-gazing theology or bondage to legalistic hair splitting.
Michael,
Thanks for sharing your story. My son, also in California, was part of the San Diego SGM church. He was there for about 5 years and left after his eyes were completely opened. He also has made some major changes in what he believes about the organized church. He is going to an Emergent church that has radically different views than SGM. As his mom, I am concerned about some of his views now but can understand completely why he feels as he does.
Michael,
Welcome and thanks for sharing!!!!!! I don’t think what you believe could shock me.
Michael
Welcome to this blog and thanks for sharing your story.
In case you don’t know, Che Ahn who was the pastor that came out to found the church you indicate you were a part of when it first started left the PDI group. In one of his books he talks about the reasons why he left the group and it included PDI”s(now SGM) move away from pretty much any foreign missions.
I believe his book where he wrote about this is titled:
Stock Photo
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Into the Fire: How You Can Enter Renewal and Catch God’s Holy Fire
Che Ahn also alludes to some doctrine changes that the new leader (presumably Mahaney and his move towards Calvinism) that helped him decide to leave the group.
Thanks for the welcome, all. Yes I know Che well and his misgivings about PDI. I didn’t realize how much PDI/SGM and CJ embraced Calvinism, however, until recently. My recent interest in the SGM history is because I’m writing a book about my evangelical experiences, called “Confessions of a Bible Thumper.” Many of you I’m sure will relate to the stories I tell, but perhaps I may push the envelope too far for some. That’s OK. Maturity is accepting others you disagree with unconditionally without insisting on the mirage of doctrinal purity.
My PDI/SGM experience was a lesson in how legalism divides those who question it, ultimately devastates those who naively embrace it, and can destroy the conscience of those who defend it as they begin to enable and perpetuate spiritual and emotional abuse in the name of righteousness. The latter folks become blind to their own hypocrisy. Sadly, I’ve seen it in more places than PDI/SGM. There is hope however. Freedom will always rise above the more legalism is exposed.
All, I’ve been out of the loop about SGM for years, only hearing bits and pieces of news from time to time, e.g. Josh Harris’s rise to pastor CL. I was fascinated recently hearing Tomzcak’s story, apparently being pushed out because one of his kids was too rebellious? Is his story documented somewhere?
It amazes me how the movement has grown more ingrown and entrenched in its faulty views over the years and the things I saw years ago, even in a more enlightened church-plant, were all part of a pattern. It is so subtle when you first begin (and I believe well-meaning) in the church, and for those of us who believe in the Bible, it all seems reasonable for it appears to be patterned after the scriptures. But, it’s a very narrow, literalist way of reading the scriptures, out of context and outside its cultural and historical milieu, with the claim that what you are reading is “the Word of God.” So, reading a verse like “watch your life and doctrine closely” (1 Timothy 4:16), turns into a system of controlling members and ensuring doctrinal purity, and if you don’t, well you are disobeying the Word and have a rebellious spirit. Everything becomes judgmental.
I will continue to read your stories and share some of mine. My hope is to encourage others, help set people free, and expose the roots of the legalism and a way to overcome it. The more people speak up, the more bonds will be broken and the abuse exposed.
Michael,
My welcome, as well. I love your title: “Confessions of a Bible Thumper!”
My hope is that you push the envelope, as you write outside the box. If you feel uncomfortable doing that here, I welcome you to email me your thoughts (JIM, please provide Michael my email address if he asks). I enjoy reading what God has been stirring up in your heart. It is evident that God has been helping you with your vision of reality.
Michael,
On this site, you will see Mahaney accused of being too Calvinistic or not Calvinistic enough, too charismatic or not charismatic enough.
May the Lord direct your heart as you sort out what you’ve experienced.
The Missus
Michael,
Welcome to the site!
Michael,
I’m glad you are posting. It is good to have another “voice” added to so many.
Pam, Freedom, Steve240, Canary, Jim, The Missus, and Gratefully Disillusioned, thanks for the warm welcome. I don’t want to step on toes, so will try to share my views with grace. GD, yes, I’d love to correspond via email. I don’t mind people seeing mine at all: michaelwcamp@comcast.net
Welcome Michael!
We’ve had Pia who was at the California church posting on this site and over at SGM Survivors every now and then. She hasn’t posted for a little bit, but maybe she will see your post.
Pam,
Be glad your son opened his eyes. The lessons he learned are priceless. Thinking outside the box is a scary thing, so I understand your concern for some of his new views. Inside the box is safe and the walls bring us security. Outside the box feels dangerous. But God is bigger than our boxes. I discovered sometimes the boxes we construct and think are biblical really are not. So, don’t worry too much. I try to follow C.S. Lewis’ principal “go where the evidence leads,” a good guideline that does wonders for all who follow it and has, for example, brought the likes of former atheist Antony Flew to come to believe in God.
One point I want to make is that for certain personalities, it’s extremely difficult to think outside the box. For some people to “get” what SGM Refuge or Survivors are saying is a very slow process because of years of ingrained teaching and thought patterns. We’d like to think we could explain something and presto, people get it, but their defense mechanisms tell them to be suspicious of people who rock the boat. Why? Because if SGM survivors are right, then someone has to face the pain of being wrong or deceived or a partner to abuse. Typically, only the abused “get it” at first.
I wonder if anyone here has read the book “Faith that Hurts vs. Faith that Heals,” formerly of the name “Toxic Faith.” It helped me so much with a conflict with a controlling leader who incidentally was also part of the PDI church in California and had the authoritative parental-style-of-leadership teaching of PDI rub off on him. I recommend that book to help people heal.
Michael — thanks for your insights. You wrote “From my perspective, the root of most of this is what I call Bible abuse–when usually well-meaning people misuse scripture for a purpose that it wasn’t originally intended…”
It has occurred to me recently that what we see in all this legalism is nothing new — it’s the same reaction that occured when, in the genuine pursuit of godliness, things like not letting meat mix with milk caused Jewish Kosher rules like not letting certain food items be served on the same plate. Nothing new under the sun — just wrapped up in Christianese rather than Hebrew.
Welcome Michael. Thank you for sharing. The truth does hurt. It’s amazing, you can show people evidence both scriptural and otherwise yet they still can’t see. I have found recently that when I share my story with those still caught up in the SGM mind-set; they get a glazed look in their eyes and begin to defend the pastors and the counsel. The things that I and others have experienced not only made no sense and lacked any biblical backing but seemed almost unnatural or even inhuman. Anyone could see that even by secular standards there was no logic to my or others experiences. I am fascinated still that the reactions of those I tell seem to be one of excuse making and wholeheartedly believing that the counsel and treatment I received were somehow ordained by God to be this way. What is even more fascinating for me is that they believe me; they know that I am speaking the truth, that I would have no reason to make this up. It just came to fruition for me a couple of weeks ago that not one person I have shared my experience with seemed like they had a passionate, heartfelt remorse or sorrow over the pain I and others have experienced. Where I did see a passion was when pastoral abuse and bad counsel was excused, adamantly defended, and written off and explained away as having to be from God! The evidence is overwhelming, yet there are still blinders! I guess I see firsthand now what “brain washing” really looks like. My heart and my prayers go out to my brothers and sisters whom I love so much. Go speak the truth and speak it loud Michael
Square Peg,
Thanks. There’s nothing new under the sun. But Bible abuse is rampant in so many churches. Everyone is susceptible to it because the majority of us were not taught sound methods to interpret the Bible. I just went on several SGM websites and see it all over the place with statements about something and then the verse to back it up… verses may be inspirational but they don’t prove anything; ideas and rational thought derived from passages and sections and letters and books and whole arguments in scripture in light of original language, culture, and history are the things that should drive doctrine.
Betrayed,
Thanks. I have experienced what you say… that glazed what-on-earth-are-you-talking-about-how-could-our-NT-church-and-pastors-be-wrong look. Brainwashing happens, unfortunately. It’s a worldview that must be cut at the root for anyone to get through. Thanks for your encouragement. I encourage you to do the same! Don’t be concerned with how people receive it… that’s not our responsibility, only that it is exposed… without derisiveness, which means forgiveness for the abusers and those who enable the abuse. Forgiveness doesn’t mean covering up wrong doing, however.
Michael — I really appreciate your response to Betrayed above. For many years, I wouldn’t share my story with ANYONE because I didn’t want the problems I encountered to reflect badly on the cause of Christ. Now, I’m still careful of who I share it with, so Survivors and SGMRefuge have helped so much in healing, understanding, and forgiving.
And lately, I’ve begun to realize that in many cases, I was tacitly guilty of enabling abusive behavior (although often in SGM culture, the average member never hears a thing about it). Lately, when I’ve read someone’s story, I’ve wanted to apologize for anytime I might have unwittingly had a part in contributing to someone’s pain. So, here it is — to all of you who may have suffered because I did not speak up in your defense, or because I might have participated in hindering your freedom, I sincerely apologize and ask your forgiveness.
Because of His Love, Grace, and Mercy,
Square Peg
Square Peg,
Thanks for sharing that. It’s important to remember that abusers and enablers don’t wake up every morning wondering, “Gee, how can I spiritually abuse or enable abuse today?” It is an ingrained pattern of behavior (like you said, “unwittingly”). This fact helps victims of abuse to forgive others because they see it’s not necessarily a personal attack.
It’s wonderful that you see this all now and can help others by exposing abuse and enablement. I’ve learned that the cause of Christ will take care of itself. Not saying anything could actually hurt the cause of Christ more in the long run. The cause of Christ is so much more than the reputation of an institutional church or denomination. I talk about this in my book.
Hi,
First it’s great to learn that my experience and a couple of my friends are not the only ones. I am surprised to see how many others have been hurt by their time with SGM/PDI.
I started attending prior to our church joining SGM. At first all seemed fine. The pastors were very open and available. Our church joined PDI a couple of months later and we soon started to notice a change. For some reason our pastors were not available anymore. We are all strongly encouraged to join a care group. More to the point, we were assigned to a care group.
Working full time and taking college classes at night presented a schedule conflict for me. Since I was already taking class, I did not think missing cg would be an issue. After missing the first cg, the leader asked me what was going on. I explained the situation and he seemed to fully understand. Well during the week of final exams we only had one class scheduled which naturally was for the final exam not on a cg night. Since I am not a “A” student I needed all the time to study, so I again missed cg as I had done since class started. This time I was confronted by one of the pastors. I explained the situation only to hear, “If you believe study is more important than God, that’s your priority” Thinking he was making a bad joke, I suddenly realized he was serious.
I started to attend cg after class had finished for the spring. All seemed well, we were encouraged to “open up” and not create “walls” in our lives. Naturally I wanted to be a good Christians and grow, so I opened up about things. This would prove to be a BIG BIG MISTAKE. I did not realize that the church I loved was practicing shepherding. I did see many in care group seek advice of the cg leader for all kinds of things. Well in time I signed up for classes and purchased a used car – the car I had stopped working and needed too much $$ to repair (engine and trans). For some reason this cg leader confronted me because I did not see his advice. He explained to me that he is my “spiritual covering”. I did not see this in the Bible, but then I was a Bible expert. At the next cg shuffle I was rewarded by being placed in the farthest cg from my house. It turned out that the cg leader was upset I did not consult him on matters he had no education/knowledge or experience with – basically my classes for my degree.
The next cg leader explained he knew of my situation and was the for me. I thought he was talking about my class/work schedule not what I had “opened up” about – struggles with family members. I soon learned that this cg leader was fully aware of the personal problem in my family – I am referring to abusive family members. I was not married at this time. Even though I had reconciled with one family member, it seemed this cg “give it a rest”.
After another year or so, I asked a couple of leaders why people seemed to have to go to leadership with virtually every decision. It was just an honest question, no judgment, just looking for information. I was promptly told that these leaders are setup by God, similar to the way Moses was set to lead the people. Also I was fully informed that my questions were an attack on God’s anointed and thus an attack on Him.
It has been many years, I will write more later – but I am surprised to meet people who have left the movement some as much as 5-10 years ago and have problems with being codependent to this day. I suggest they read the Bible and seek God not some covering for every decision.
And I really am talking about virtually every decision – even the ones that are clearly answered in Scripture
Free-of-SGM
Freeofsgm
Thanks for sharing your heart! Although the influence of the Shepherding Movement, advocating the “covering” craziness, was anesthetizedduring our tenure with SGM, I can look back and see its ugliness in how I was dealt with. I remember how angry my sr. pastor was (but he was trying soooo hard to cover it up with his fake smile) when I told him that what he thought I should do was clearly, to me, NOT the direction Abba wanted me to go in.
Though his words, by themselves were sanitized, his eyes and from his smile up gave his heart away. He shunned me for quite some time after that with an uncanny ability to look right through me as if I wasn’t even there. I clearly got the message that I should NEVER hear from God independently from leadership over me. That was just the beginning. I tried very hard to turn the page on that poignant incident, but things were never the same after than; I had crossed over the point of no return.
As I look back, I see my Father’s hand guiding me away from the oppressive soul-numbing environment.
I am looking forward to hearing more of your story–thanks again!
Michael said, “I wonder if anyone here has read the book “Faith that Hurts vs. Faith that Heals,” formerly of the name “Toxic Faith.””
Yes, that’s an excellent book.
I was once in another “church” cult.
One of the greatest dangers is to leave one cult and doctrinally leap over the fence to whatever seems to be the opposite of what you left.
When I left my old “church” cult, I had to look at God face-to-face and lean hard on Him for strength.
Searching the scriptures for what He says and maintaining caution about the teaching of other “movements” is critical at this point. Draw close to God. He will keep you close and guide you. You do want a church home, but be patient in following God’s lead.
Many people who left my old “church” cult, lost their moorings. This is why I say this.
SGM is not the only sand trap church out there. Beware the emergents and prosperity preachers.
http://www.crossroad.to/articl.....warren.htm
Hey saints. Just discovered this website a few months ago. I’m glad so many are being set free from the control of men. Religion is in the business of “sin management” and when sin is taken away, religion is put out of business, and it is a multi-billion dollar business. That is exactly what Jesus did. Behold the Lamb of God who took away the sin of the world. Check out: http://www.seeinggrace.com and also http://www.graceorlando.com.
You are reaping what you have sown, Danny Jones.
Thank God, Jesus is Head of the church.
James – Well said!! And when SGM and other leaders realize that the church doesn’t belong to them the church will be much better off -
James, (& Irv,)
AMEN! AMEN! AMEN! AMEN! AMEN! AMEN!
Grace to you, James; are you a former member of MLC?
Since this section is called “Your Story” would you like to share yours?
thanks in advance!
Patricia,
So much wisdom in what you said. I wonder if that is why God makes a point to take His time to move many of us into new churches- so we don’t try to go to opposite extremes.
James, welcome to the site!
Stunned
Hello all,
Just popping in to say Hi! It’s been roughly a year since I left Covenant Fellowship Church and I feel so liberated. Looking back, I can NOT believe how controlled and oppressed I was. I can NOT believe I allowed myself to submit to such leadership. Since I left, not a single person I had fellowship with has had anything to do with me. One of them went so far as to tell a pastor in a letter that the Devil had entered my heart!! (Am I now Judas because I’m out of SGM??) I am so sad for them.
God has truly smiled upon me. He set me free. If you are thinking about leaving…run and don’t look back. Something is not right! I am still healing and it’s still VERY hard to trust church leadership in churches I’ve visited. I’m sure God will make a way in that area too….
Thanks for all your support folks. This website has really helped me through the healing.
B – We rejoice with you on your new found freedom and you are experiencing life with Christ again. Thanks for sharing!!
Hi Betrayed,
I’m SO glad you are doing better!
Since I left, not a single person I had fellowship with has had anything to do with me. One of them went so far as to tell a pastor in a letter that the Devil had entered my heart!! (Am I now Judas because I’m out of SGM??) I am so sad for them.
I’m sorry.
We get together once in a while with ONE family, but that’s about it.
Betrayed,
Enjoy the freedom! I’m so happy for you. It is a difficult road to walk but you aren’t alone.
Ellie, it is sad about loosing friends after leaving sgm. We lost all ours as well. I’m glad you have at least one family you can still hook up with.
That’s great to hear, Betrayed!
SGM’s “cultish exclusiveness” is the number one complaint/concern I’ve heard through the years. It permeates through *EVERYTHING* SGMers do and speaks VOLUMES!!
I believe it contributes the most to their undoing, even moreso than polity. It’s the reason the blogs took a life of their own. You can’t treat people the way SGM and many of their members do and continue to get away with it – eventually there’s an “uprising.”
I know a few that are aware of the complaints and try to appear less exclusive. They get out ocassionally and try to mix and mingle with the rest of the Body. They look like fish out of water – it’s quite obvious, and sad. You can tell they’re struggling and can’t wait to get back with “their own kind.”
Hi Betrayed,
Congratulations on a year out. (I feel like we should have a chip to give you like they do in AA.)
My first couple of years outside of Covenant Fellowship was HARD. Sounds like you’re in a good place and I rejoice for you. Yes, it will take a long time to trust a minister. Don’t push yourself. God will get you where He wants you when He wants you there.
I left Cov Fel back in the early 00′s. Any chance you were there then?
KS, Cov Fel used to be known as the clique of all cliques. We would all go to Celebration (remember those conferences when they spent all year trying to convince you that it was going to be the single greatest event of your year and afterward trying to convince you that it was?). At each Celebration people I would chat with (I was the odd duck who actually spoke to people from other SGM churches) and they would complain about the kids from Cov Fel, how cold and snobby they were because they would only sit with “their own kind” in the cafeteria. I thought, “These poor kids have no other example to follow. Can’t blame them since their parents do the same thing.”
Betrayed, feel free to post to me if you’re interested in connecting with an old Cov Fel person.
Best,
Stunned
I have been in a SGM church for many years and have seen how the poor polity (read unbiblical) and the remnants from the Shepherding Movement have allowed for some bad situations and outright poor leadership. Many people have jumped ship from our church and I admit I am on the verge.
I am waiting for a bit, though. There are some things happening throughout SGM, most likely as a result of some of the recent issues. I know for a fact that the leadership at this particular church is doing some re-evaluation of what has led to the problems. There have been some folks that have been calling..no, screaming, for change and it might happen. There have been many positive signs. The removal of Brent, SGM’s recent change on their stance on apostles and their authority, and other things point to a possible change in things for the better. There are some significant things going on. I think it is “do or die” time for SGM and the leadership might be starting to see it.
Cautiously Optimistic, it would be great if you were right, about change or the people ‘ on high’ listening to those ‘under’ them. Perhaps if the bottom line is down that gets attention, but as for seeing the errors of their polity, well, I’m just not too sure…..unless something significant has happened to shoot holes in their recent polity statement?
please share any/all details or info you can!
More details in a few weeks.
Cautiously Optimistic, I’m glad you’re “cautious,” and I’m praying for you to be discerning, as well. You sound like a nice guy/gal.
Synonyms for cautious are: alert, all ears, cagey, calculating, chary, circumspect, considerate, discreet, forethoughtful, gingerly, hedging one’s bets, heedful, judicious, keeping on one’s toes, leery, on the lookout, playing it cool, playing safe, politic, provident, prudent, pussyfoot, safe, shrewd, taking it easy, taking it slow, tentative, thinking twice, vigilant, walking on eggs, wary, watchful, watching one’s step, watching out, with one’s eyes peeled.
I’ll be anxiously waiting for “more details,” especially if this is Brent’s former church.
I agree with Carole’s comment to Vida on the “We-are-fam-a-lee…” thread. Be VERY cautious of “words.” Walking the walk after the talk is the TRUE test of change. And it’s not just “walking the walk” for a short distance or duration to make everyone think you’re headed down a new path, when in reality you have no intentions of changing course. Unfortunately SGM is known for using such tactics.
Time will tell – it’s the proven test.
Nothing short of a public apology from CJ and his “bros” to ALL those who have been abused, manipulated, deceived, lied to and defrauded will do. Many other Christian leaders have done this and then moved forward in their ministries. This takes REAL humility and not just the kind of “humility” which comes from the lips!
Cautious: Be careful. Deception runs rampant within SGM and it is SO easy to be deceived when you are sitting under these pastors. Just ask me…….
Fred,
The leaders I knew could be very charming. It was so easy to fall under the spell of the way they presented themselves. Yet, challenge them and off comes the “nice guy” image. Anger and impatience appeared like magice. Shocking. This was my experience in the last days of our involvement in PDI. Has that changed at all?
Three possibilities at my church:
Revolution…what happens here sparks change throughout SGM.
Renegade….we make changes to the polity against the direction of SGM.
Rejection…after all is said and done and considered, the leaders keep it all the same and nothing changes.
And, no, I am not at the Charlotte church.
Or another possibility – REACTION: people see no change and leave. I am personally voting for Revolution (change).
Cautiously, OOOOH! Now this sounds very interesting!! I would be very encouraged by the 1st two options and sad but not surprised by the last one. So……what church are you are you referring to?
First time posting, but I found this site about 4 years ago. After reading for several days I had to stop because, though I desparately wanted to leave, it was not possible. (God was quite clear it was not the right time.) I finally had doors fly open about 9 months ago and I flew! It is amazing to be breathing the clean fresh air of freedom. One day I will tell my story, which pales compared to so many I read here.
My former SGM church is starting to hemmorage. Much is going on. Family meeting in a few weeks. It will be interesting.
Thanks to all here who take the time to help the hurting. You are doing God’s good work.
So, Cautiously Optimistic…are you maybe 5 hours north of Charlotte…at the regional (apostle’s) church?
Welcome edgewalker! It is good to hear from you.
Welcome edgewalker!
Welcome Edgewalker. I’m joyful that God has granted you freedom. Thank you also for thanking those of us here who really do love people in and out of SGM. I know with all of my stuff, it doesn’t always come across that way. It’s a painful thing to have lived through, but to think that others don’t have to be alone when they leave nowadays (thanks to refuge and survivors) does help to bring healing.
BTW, your story will not pale in comparison. It is yours. Therefore it is important because it was your experience. In most of our books, whatever happened to you is important because it affected you (contrary to what many of us have heard ol’ CJ say). And it is God’s story of freeing his people from religion and bondage. You may not think that to us it will look like Him parting the Red Sea, but for those who were set free from our Egypt and brought into Christ’s freedom, it will appear just as glorious. Share whenever you’re ready and comfortable with doing so.
Stunned
Betrayed,
We share the same former church (same as Stunned, same liberated feeling after a lot of pain.)
If you need to talk with someone, here’s my uni email db604406@wcupa.edu Sometimes sharing with someone that has had similar experiences helps.
Welcome, edgewalker. So glad you have found your freedom! God is good!
Anyone else wondering what the financial situation is at these “hemorrhaging” churches?
Is there any room for a scenario where mature God-loving men who have joy in their salvation rise up as a unified group and approach their “leaders” in the confidence of who they are in Christ and say ‘uh, no, that is NOT the way we see God taking us. We don’t WANT a path of hypocrisy (do as I say not as I do) and secrecy and the man-behind-the-curtain making all the decisions and taking none of the responsibility for the consequences? Men who are willing to say, ‘we don’t want to talk with our feet, we want to talk about the Emperor’s ugly non-clothing’ and bring in TRUE servant-leadership, starting with serving you leaders by telling you the truth.’
I want to thank Stunned and Canary for responding to my post (my first one) this morning. I sat and cried as I read your responses, God bless you both for your compassion. Thank you, thank you!
I serve where and when I believe that GOD leads me too. While subtle, the pressure is definitely there. I think it’s the subtleness that makes me question my sanity.
I will tell my story very s l o w l y, it will take time, I also have so many questions…my head is spinning from excitement that the Lord led me to Refuge and the unspeakable sorrow in my heart…
You see, I have not left my church I know that I must; if I’m to survive. ..and I do mean survive.
I have struggled with the dreaded “D’ word for many years and I have a documented disease that complicates the depression. It has been so bad that I was hospitalized years ago. Thankfully it is not that bad this time, yet I know it could be that bad again. Luckily I ‘m of a different mind set this time and know what to watch for.
My first involvement with SGM/PDI was years ago and after my hospitalization, I did leave them…but went back periodically and then got drawn up in the whole thing again.
I’m a member and have had a difficult time since I made the commitment. ie missing care group, …always a problem. WHEW missing both care group and church, well, not pretty!
For the past few months all I can do is sit and cry when I try to pray, I know that God is listening to all the moaning of my prayer and that the Spirit discerns what I cannot articulate. There have been times when I could only recite the Lord’s Prayer…and sob so hard that I couldn’t even swallow…if they only knew…the way they have made me feel, yet, sadly I know that they wouldn’t get it…yet, I want them too. Not so much for my sake…but their own you know???
It’s sad how we allow ourselves to view God through the eyes of others, particularly when we believe that the people whom we associate with truly are our christian brothers and sisters. They want our good just as God does. That is where I have been lately. Questioning God, praying, talking out loud and journaling where is the balance, this is way out of proportion! On the way to work a few weeks ago I was praying and crying so hard I had to pull over to the side of the road…as I sat there, I felt SPENT and I said “God, if you’ll show me the way out, show me how to manage my depression and my illness in a way that honors you with you at the helm, I will share it in the way that you want me too. Because I know this is not what you intend for my life, I know that you love me and you hold me…so hold me close and help me not to isolate myself, if I do I won’t make it>”
After praying those words I had a sense of peace, like I haven’t felt in a long time.
There are good people at the SGM church I attend.Wonderful caring people, yet they have been there for so many years they can’t see the forest for the trees! If SGM is to ever change some of their practices it’s those people who will have to be the ones to put an end to all the tyranny! But maybe they are afraid like me.
There is certainly a control thing among the leadership, although maybe not (at least on the surface) as bad as some other things that I’ve read about. Then again??? I’ve seen people disappear from the congregation and when you ask about them you don’t get an answer. Or when you are sitting in Sunday service and a part of the sermon turns to ”accountability” and not allowing those who hold bitterness in their hearts to tear the church a part. At those times, I know that the pastors are talking to individuals in the congregation, and that it is no longer preaching the gospel, but strong arm tactics.
Yep, have come to know the manipulation from the pulpit. I thank God that I see it, yet, don’t know where to put it all…and the relationships, the few that I have built, I know that I will ultimately lose. In a life already full of those, well, its very painful.
I know that I have rattled on here, I’m usually much more articulate and well, intelligent. But somehow, I don’t think that will matter to all of you, I feel like I know some of you, just by walking through this Refuge and reading about you and some of your struggles. So be patient with me, have lots to share and as I said have many questions.
Thank you for listening.
God bless.
needin hope
quote: There are good people at the SGM church I attend.Wonderful caring people, yet they have been there for so many years they can’t see the forest for the trees! If SGM is to ever change some of their practices it’s those people who will have to be the ones to put an end to all the tyranny! But maybe they are afraid like me.
There is certainly a control thing among the leadership, although maybe not (at least on the surface) as bad as some other things that I’ve read about. Then again??? I’ve seen people disappear from the congregation and when you ask about them you don’t get an answer. end quote
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Hi needin! The sgm church you go to sounds like the one that I went to. Very good people, people that I basically “grew up” with. But I hardly ever see any of them anymore. When I do, “the elephant in the room” is always there. I wish that they could be free, but they don’t seem to have any problems. The church is chugging along like it has for years, but half the people that used to be there, aren’t. I HATE that I had to give up my friends that I went to college with and the family that I had for years because of sgm. I really really am sad about what sgm has done to my old church. I pass by there almost every day, and it hurts. It has hurt my kids. But you know what? It hurt more being there, pretending. It would’ve hurt more for my kids to see me pretending that everything that was said from the pulpit was “of God”. It would’ve hurt more to ignore the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit that *the pastors* told me that I could not hear because “our (ie my) heart is deceitful”.
Your story especially touched me because I know of some people that had left my old pdi/sgm church that went back after having been gone for years. You miss the old fellowship that you used to have, you think that things have changed, that it will be different this time. But it won’t. Things haven’t changed, really, underneath it all, in fact they have gotten worse. If it wasn’t for the good people that are still there, the choice would be easy. But ignoring the voice of the Holy Spirit will hurt more in the long run. Ignoring the truth will make you feel crazy and will make depression worse.
Hope to “talk” to you more.
Hey Ellie- thank you for your encouragement and words of truth. This IS speaking truth in ones life! I know it’s part of the reason the Lord led me here.
It will help give me courage and build me up after being torn down.
God Bless,
needin hope
Welcome, Needing Hope! I have battled the big D for years myself–getting out of CLC has helped, as have some other changes in my life. My story is here too – Control F – acme
May God give you “strength for today and bright hope for tomorrow”!
needin’hope,
You just take your time in telling us your story. We know it isn’t easy to write it all down. I suffered a deep depression after leaving PDI/SGM. It didn’t hit me until two years after leaving. I enjoyed my freedom so much. Then I began to realize what I’d really lost. I wondered what sort of false doctrines I’d embraced. What was real and what wasn’t? Had I wasted nearly 2 decades of my life being involved there? My husband and I lost all our friends, long time ones, because we left. All that and then depression. It was horrible. But…
God lifted me out of it. He taught me truth and love at His marvelous feet. He set me free from most of my fears. It was a journey that took time. Don’t rush yourself. Hopefully, being at the Refuge will shorten this journey for you because you can learn from others who’ve gone before you. Anyway, we are here for you, our new friend. Big, big hugs! Canary
Welcome to you Needin Hope!
I’m Hope, but not the one you’re looking for. I am Hope because as God opened my eyes to his truth…then hope was renewed. After having the truths, which the Holy Spirit had already spoken to my heart, confirmed by others; finding out, as you are now, that I wasn’t crazy…that brought hope. The hope you’re looking for is in your Father, who is lovingly directing you out of the haze, so that you can see more clearly the things He wants to show you. It was so helpful when I was in the place that you’re in now, still in SG, but seeing things a bit more clearly, to have Christians outside of SG to befriend and talk to. God used them to help me find that balance and helped me see his bigger picture. I had so much fear. I feared loss, exposure, but even more I feared I would be trapped forever knowing things were not right. But God has in my year since departure showed me I have nothing to lose if I have Him. I did not need to fear what man could do to me, but to trust that He was for me. Nothing can separate you from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus. He will walk with you through all he is showing you. He is all you need, cling to Him now, don’t be afraid. You are loved.
Dear Needing Hope,
Welcome to the Refuge. Like Stunned, Canary, Acme, and Ellie, I understand your pain because I remember my own. Awhile back, I posted a journal entry that I wrote seven months after our PDI/SGM departure. I will post it again here:
It has been nearly seven months since we were asked to leave our church, yet even now I feel deep despondency and pain over the whole situation. “If an enemy were insulting me, I could endure it; if a foe were raising himself against me, I could hide from him. But it is you, a man like myself, my companion, my close firend, with whom I once enjoyed sweet fellowship as we walked with the throng at the house of God.” Psalm 55:12-14
My heart is wounded and in anguish. “But I call to God, and the Lord saves me. Evening, morning and noon I cry out in distress, and He hears my voice. He ransoms me unharmed from the battle waged against me, even though many oppose me.” Psalm 55:17-18…
I have come to realize just in the past few weeks that we are in need of spirtual healing. We cannot bring healing to ourselves; we can only rely on You to put salve on our wounded hearts. “Cast your cares on the Lord and he will sustain you; He will never let the righteous fall.” Psalm 55:22
Thank you, Lord Jesus, that You have made us righteous before God; therefore, we are the righteous, and You will never let us fall. “But as for me, I trust in You.” Psalm 55:23
This was written in May of 1990. Yet here you are today facing many of the same things. Apparently, Psalm 55 was very comforting to me at the time of our leaving. Still it took me years to fully recover. But I did recover. And you will too.
I am glad you found the blog. It is our hope and prayer that our presence and voices here will help those just exactly like you to recover much quicker than we did. Blessings and prayers coming your way!
Gracie
I’m grateful to you all for your kind and encouraging words. A special thank you to Jim and Carole for setting up this blog years ago. God bless you both for your boldness and gentle articulation about SGM.
It is the one thing that keeps them from “inviting me in completely”. They would never admit to that of course, but I believe with all my heart that they believe that I just don’t really get it; granted , I have come along way but I have a long road ahead of me.
I believe the saddest truth is that I do agree with some of the teachings of SGM yet they have run a muck in the hands of men who hunger for more than Jesus…they hunger for power and dare I say, money. I will leave that for a another time!!!!!
When I first came to SGM I was intrigued and wanted to be a part of the movement. I mean who wouldn’t want to walk out their faith in the context of loving and biblical relationships? It’s a wonderful thing; living in community. We are Christ’s church isn’t this what he intended for his people?? I believe so, I believed in homeschooling youngsters and young teenagers not dating. BUT I also believe that parents are the ones who should be helping their children make decisions about dating. They are the guides here; not church leadership. These are family decisions; not church decisions. We can certainly ask for and even submit to their council IF we believe that the Holy Spirit is leading us in that direction.
I wouldn’t be what you call a 100% SGMer. I had many church experiences outside this body of churches and therfore had a pretty solid foundation long before I met them. In some ways, I can see now why I have not NOR will ever completely “fit in” because of that foundation. I may be to them a rebel of sorts.
The appeal for me was living in community. I desperately wanted loving and close knit relationships. Those who knew my history knew it was important and that’s where all the “you have a lot of expectations” started. For me, show me the proof…practice what you teach from your pulpit. When others who “invite ” you in and then keep you at arms length; it’s confusing, alarming and hurtful. Of course we aren’ t allowed to say “you hurt my feelings” because then well you all know as well as I do. How many times have you heard it?? “It’s not about you…it’s about Jesus.” So it becomes ok; when people say these things to you. You walk away and think to yourself…”Really??”" God, am I that wrong??
You begin to believe that you are the most vial human that God ever created…you believe that you aren’t worthy of relationship with anyone, you also believe that if his people don’t accept you then how could God ever accept you. This can be and has been damaging in my walk with the Lord at times Has anyone else experienced these types of things?? I hope you will weigh in on this if you have. I’m anxious to hear your thoughts.
My prayers are turning more and more to this…”God show me YOUR truth, by the power of the Holy Spirit illuminate your love and compassion to me. Give me an ear to hear your Holy Word for it IS truth to me. Can I hear an AMEN??
needin hope
Needin Hope,
My heart aches for you. I, too, have a chronic condition that is associated with extremely high rates of depression. I will keep you in prayer and if you want to talk with someone please feel free to email me. I mean it.
Also, there seems to be an unusually high rate of depression among women that have experienced SGM’s legalism. You have a lot of good company.
Needin’
You have come to the right place….welcome.
These women will be a lifeline to Jesus for you, my dear.
needin’ hope….,
RT is partially correct, there are a few men here who will also offer support and care as God has wired us to do for our sisters. (Love ya RT!)
You (needin’) touched a point that I have been pondering lately; What is God’s plan for human relationships?
I believe God wired us all for relationships, but the primary relationship is to be a personal one with HIM. And He does that through His Holy Spirit.
I think that as we are hard wired for relationship with God, we can be tricked into a relationship with a church, (or family of churches) that ultimately replaces the relationship we are to have exclusively with God. Whether or not it is intentional with SGM can be debated here, but that it has happened in SGM is quite obvious. I believe to the core of my being and with every strand of DNA in my body.
THAT, (misplaced relationship with God) is at (or near) the core of our most painful departure experiences from SGM. (So I believe.)
Therefore the best recovery “method” I can offer for anyone, is to just cuddle up real close with God, in the most intimate way you possibly can, and stay there.
Talk to God like you are talking to a friend, and beg for more filling of His Holy Spirit, for His comfort, and private conversation with Him.
Whether you are dancing with Joy, or crying like a baby, He want’s to hear from you, because He wants to be in that close of relationship with you.
The Creator of the Universe WANT’S to be your closest and most intimate friend.
I don’t know about you, but I find that very very comforting, and that kind of relationship has gotten me through some terrifying times.
needin’ hope…., I’m glad God brought you here. We will support and love you in the best way we can. As your brother’s and sisters, we will walk this road with you.
Your Brother,
Defender
Needin Hope….bless you.
May God bless you and keep you.
Do you like music? 2 songs have been mental health to me:
“In Christ Alone” and “Give me Jesus” – both are simple…heck I went back to Keith Green songs when we were recovering! Simple, heart-felt love songs for Jesus. He is truly our first love isn’t he?
I’m so sorry the church has tried to be Him or take his place in your heart and life. And I know how it happens! Like ooze, you dont’ see it until you wonder how it happened?!
You are safe here. You are loved and cared about. Most of all we want to be your friends, not your Savior or Lord.
Dear brothers in the Lord, Defender and RT!
Defender your words were spot on! We have to be retaught a different kind of walk with the Lord based on how he meets us where we are ! We lose sight of that; it doesn’t happen over night, it’s a gradual process. We are taught week after week about our sinfulness and at least for me we forget the loving kindness of our saviour! We see him as unyielding, unforgiving and unattainable. You are right, I need to be be in the WORD and in daily communion with Abba Father. He is bending his ear to me; thank you Father. Gracie Psalms 55 is one that I will own. A prayer for me in the mornings.
How about this one “The Lord is my friend, I shall not want…” Psalm 23. Oh Lord that you will lead me to still waters! Restore my soul and all the dear precious ones who visit here. Amen!
DB thank you, will be in touch in a few days when I gather the courage.
needin hope
needin hope
I have found this place to be a haven for all of us to vent and be supported. I’ve met some wonderful peeps on here!
Hi,
I wanted to share my story because I think the structure of SGM and the abuse our family experienced led to where we are now. And, let me tell you, we are a mess. It is only 36 hours since I recommitted my life to Jesus. While I know I made the choice to renounce Jesus, I believe I never would have been in that position if it weren’t for SGM.
Quick necessary background: I was born Jewish, and grew up in and out of foster care due to abuse. I was literally collecting the items necessary to kill myself when a staff worker at my group home told me his story and offered to take me to a local youth group meeting. I got saved at that meeting 26 years ago.
Within two years I was out on my own, at college and invited to a SGM church. I was only there a few months before transferring to another college, but it was right near another SGM church, so that is where I attended. It was Robin Boisvert’s church, LCC. I was the ultimate people pleaser, involved in cg and any ministry I could find time for. Three years later when my non-SGM boyfriend proposed to me (and I said yes), my cg leader told me I should have spoken to Robin first, because as an “unparented” woman, he was my authority. When I met with Robin he told me I shouldn’t marry my boyfriend unless he was planning to come to LCC. He wasn’t. We were planning to go to his church, and then to seminary for him to study to be a pastor. Robin could not point out any reason (sins, etc) to justify his position and we told him we would continue with our plans. Within a few weeks I was totally “excommunicated” from the church, and no one from LCC came to our wedding. We were stunned that any pastor or church could be so controlling, but we chalked it up to one bad experience.
Multiple times we have moved, etc. and ended up returning to a SGM church. Why???? Because, 1- we didn’t experience the control in all the churches (either because we weren’t there long enough or didn’t “cross any lines” while there), and 2-we longed for close, caring relationships that caregroups seemed to foster.
Our final SGM church was in Cary, NC and run by Phil Sasser. We were there for seven years. At the end we were co-leaders of our caregroup, ran the bookstore, we oversaw the Children’s Ministry program, et., etc., etc. We were the definition of involved. My biggest problem was that I had been regularly corrected for not submitting to my husband’s leadership. A new family came and when they found out I had a Jewish background, invited us to visit a Messianic congregation they attended. (Please do not flame me.) We went to one service, with the agreement (my husband and I) that it would be the only one. Fine. It was nice, but on the way home my husband told me he wanted to return the following week for a holiday event. Before I knew it we were going to both the Messianic cong. and SGM. We knew this could not last and my husband wanted us to attend the messianic cong. not SGM. We fought about it and finally I thought that this was another situation where I had to submit, so I agreed. My husband set up a meeting with Phil to discuss our plans. He was very concerned and wanted to meet a few times with my husband to discuss it. Fine.
In the meantime my father died. We informed Phil and our caregroup leaders, asking them to pray for us. We returned late Saturday night and came to church on Sunday. Neither Phil nor our cg leaders said anything to me about my father. I wrote an email to Phil telling that I felt hurt that he had not remembered my father had died, and asking to meet with him for some help dealing with some issues that came up at the funeral, which I specified. Instead of emailing me back, Phil forwarded my email to one of the other pastor, Daniel Baker, without even asking permission. When Daniel contacted me I told him that my email was private, and I did not wish to discuss it with him. I re-emailed Phil to set up an appointment for both my husband and I to meet with him. Although Phil emailed me that I had no right to expect him to ask about me or show “my version” of pastoral care, we still had no idea what was waiting for us.
When we arrived both Phil and Daniel were there waiting for us. I had come prepared to discuss the issues about pastoral care. I presented many verses about pastor’s responsibilities to be a caring shepherd, Christian responsibilities to show love and mercy, etc.- all to be told that I was twisting the Scriptures, that those verses only tell me what I as a Christian should do, not what I should expect of others, etc. As for my email, he said that by becoming a member of the (SGM) church I had agreed that he could share any email with any pastor, and had no right to privacy. He then went on to “discuss” the topic of our choice to leave. He blamed me for judaizing my husband. Even when my husband disagreed and told him that he was the one who wanted to leave, not me, Phil told him to stop protecting me. I was the jew and it was my fault we were leaving for a messianic congregation. I was proud, I was arrogant, etc, etc. Sound familiar??
The night we left there (New Year’s Eve 2003) was the first time since I got saved that I thought about suicide. I couldn’t believe the leadership was treating us this way, I thought Christians were different, etc.. I felt betrayed to the core of being. But again, I thought the worst had happened. We planned to attend one more homegroup to say goodbye. But we were informed by Phil not to attend. We called our leaders, who also happened to be our best friends. They informed us we could not come to the meeting, as a matter of fact we weren’t allowed into their home again. We then discovered that all the cg leaders were sharing the same information with all the members that night- we were heretics and for the protection of their souls and their children’s souls, they should stay away from us. We lost every friendship and connection we had that night, leaving us out in the cold as we started from scratch at the messianic congregation.
We attended that congregation for eight months before my husband told me he no longer believed in Jesus. I went to the leader, who told me it was a phase, just be patient and loving. They met with my husband multiple times until he refused to meet any longer. All the while he was sending me articles and “showing” me every night how “Christians had misinterpreted” or twisted certain passages. I had no one to go to for help or support because we had been ostracized from the only church family we had. I was weak. I was terrified he would leave us and I had no way to support myself or my children. And, I was becoming more and more confused with each “proof” he presented. Yes, I turned my back on Jesus because I was afraid of being abandoned by the only person left in my life. I wished I had some other choice, someone to help me, but I didn’t, and I wimped out. If SGM hadn’t been so hateful and controlling, but full of the loving, encouraging relationships I thought, I could have gone back there, but as you all know too well, that isn’t the case. Additionally, the messianic leaders took the same approach, holding a meeting to inform the congregation that we were heretics. In the space of one year we were completely rejected twice by our religious “homes”.
So where are we 5+ years later? My husband has converted to Orthodox Judaism. The rest of us have tried, but cannot live this life. I cannot live without Jesus and as I said recommitted my life just Sunday morning, the first time I have been in a church since 2003. I am still confused about the Scriptures, but I cannot live wanting to die, which is where I have been for more than three years now. I am still scared. I don’t know what will happen to my family. My husband says he won’t divorce me, but he is under orders from the Rabbis not to discuss religion with me. My daughter wants to try Christianity, and my son, I don’t know. He says he doesn’t believe in a personal God (he’s 18), but when he heard that I had a good experience at this church he said he might try it. He’s been burnt and he’s old enough to remember it.
I know this has been long, and included non-SGM stuff, but I truly believe that the abuses of SGM are at the core of these issues. And, I believe that God will hold them accountable for what has happened to my family.
Yeah! “My Story” is fixed!
Defenders, you should copy and paste your story from Survivors to this forum. :)
YES. Defender, please copy your story here. I read it over at Survivors and I was amazed. At the end of your story when you wrote about drinking your coffee from the coffee mug you were given by the leadership and that you PRAY (Got that genderless) for those men, WOW I had a lump in my throat and tears in my eyes. It would be an HONOR to fellowship with you, gosh, I’d just like to shake your hand someday and give you a big ol hug. God bless you. I don’t post very much (I’m well, shy, I’m better at one on one but I do read here a lot and have a special place in my heart for all of you.
Please pray for us, we are venturing out and attending a different church tomorrow.
God bless and everyone have a blessed Sunday.
Oh, and welcome storm tossed! This is a sweet refrain here, you’ll be well cared for, prayed over and encouraged here.
Thank you!!!
“Give me Jesus, give me Jesus, you can have all this world….” I’m still singing it Defended!
Dear Storm-Tossed, I am so very sorry to read your story. I believe God will hold SGM leaders accountable for your family–and that He will soothe the waters, leading you beside still waters and restoring your soul.
My story is also here in this thread, if you are interested. Soon after I posted a link on facebook to a thread here on SGMRefuge, my friend Dorsey who now lives in Cary, NC dropped me cold. I asked her–she told me flat out that she didn’t want to read any bad stuff about SGM, that SGM mattered more than our friendship, after years of what I believed to be almost like family.
Oh, Storm tossed,
I wish I had been able to see your story before today! Are you still reading here?