This post (at 650+ comments) is now read-only, and closed to comments. “Your Story 2″ is now open for comments here.
This thread is for you.
Posters-there are no rules. Change the name you normally use if you like. Say whatever you like with no fear of judgment or correction. Say what you want, in any way that you choose. This is our own little no spin zone.
For those who choose to reply to posts, let love rule. No correction allowed here. If you must puke your venom at someone, jump over here and address me. I won’t delete it, so the whole world will be able to behold it’s glory forever. OK, that was over the top. Actually a few thousand people a day for as long as this blog remains.
If I see a hint of “get over it”, or “it’s your fault” in this category, I’ll delete your comment. In Christian love, of course.
Posters, remember what the great theologian William Wallace (played by Mel Gibson) said.
FREEDOM!
Hey all,
This is my first comment here – so great to find another blog dedicated to seeing broken lives restored! Really really grateful for your effort and your time to do this.
I did post my whole un-edited testimony over on “SGM Survivors” so I won’t re-hash the whole thing. I thought maybe I would use the “Wednesday – Your Story” opportunity to say where I am now. I’m living in a city 100 miles north of Bristol in the UK where I went to the SGM church, and the SGM influence still feels so heavy over my life – because my family go to the church.
They not only go to the church but my family are the sort who make the church their life, their priority and the leaders are advocates before God in their eyes. So I’ve recently been sent a sermon from Covenant Life Church to listen to on “Bitterness” by Grant someone or other – I’m sure it’s a hint that I should be just “getting over it”.
What happened in short to those who don’t know me at all, is that I went to the SGM church in Bristol for 2 years and was “disfellowshipped” from the church. The reason? I became very depressed and began damaging myself because I was struggling with my sexuality and didn’t feel I deserved to be in church.
I was stupid enough to go to the leaders and to tell them my entire story unedited. The leaders imposed 4 “ultimatums” on me that I MUST conform to or they would refuse to help me, and worse things would happen. Those ultimatums involved moving back to my parents home and essentially being under “house-arrest”, as well as cutting off all non-Christian friends.
I may have been depressed and desperate but I knew these ultimatums had absolutely nothing of God about them and everything of human control and authoritarianism. I went back to the leaders and told them I wouldn’t be obeying these “ultimatums”. To say they were shocked was an understatement.
I got yelled at in my face by the care group leader who was there to “support” the senior pastor. (I wasn’t offered the chance to have anyone there to support me). The senior pastor then told me if I walked out the door, I would be “disfellowshipped” and would be “handed over to Satan”. Church members would be told to avoid me and I was banned from all church meetings. Also they would write to every church in Bristol telling them of my “sins”.
(Let me state for the record – I was NOT living in sexual immorality, and made no confession that I was. The senior pastor just “suspected” I was living in sin and admitted he had no proof).
So here I am 3 years later, and I made an attempt to reconcile this issue (pretty much following the Peacemaker suggestions).
My younger sisters were getting baptised at the SGM church and so I emailed the older senior pastor to ask permission for me to go. He emailed back and said I could come, but felt a meeting would be appropriate to “restore a situation that was God-glorifying”.
I emailed back and said I was happy to come to a meeting, but that I would be bringing a pastor friend of mine to support me. I also made the point that while I would ask forgiveness for any bitter feelings I held against them, I wouldn’t be asking forgiveness for what they felt I did – as I still felt I had done nothing wrong. I was surprised to hear nothing more from the SGM pastor – and haven’t to this day.
So I guess my story is that I still feel in no man’s land. My family feel I should email again and ask permission again for some meeting to restore a “God-glorifying” situation – but I still haven’t received a response to my previous email! And of course, I am receiving sermons from Covenant Life Church – the mother ship – about sorting out my bitterness!!
Enuf said … thanks again for this forum!
Okay, this isn’t really my story… Jim already shared our personal experience with our SGC, so I won’t repeat it. (Many of you are jumping for joy right now! You don’t have to read another long post!)
BUT… I do have to share this…
What I watched my husband go through during that time in our lives was very difficult. Knowing there were “problems” that weren’t being dealt with, much less acknowledged, by our pastor… well, let me just say it was not easy to sit back and watch it unfold. His obvious lack of care and concern for the issues Jim was bringing to him was bizarre, to say the least.
This is a guy that Jim looked upon as a brother (family, as well as a brother in the Lord), and to see his lackadaisical demeanor towards the matters that were so obviously important to Jim was just unreal. I mean, when someone comes to you and pours out their heart to you, voicing not only personal concerns, but doctrinal error and concern for the road you are walking down as well, do you just blow them off? I hope not.
And his wife, who I thought was a very good friend of mine, started calling my other friends wanting to know if I had “spoken poorly of her or the church”. I THOUGHT we were friends… I felt as though she were a member of my family. So why didn’t she call ME and ask me whether I was talking smack? That’s what I would have done… confronted the alleged perpetrator, especially if she was a friend. That’s not what happened.
Methinks the reason it happened that way was more of an underlying factor of wanting to besmirch mine and Jim’s reputation with others, and to ensure that others would think poorly of us.
And then the subtle shunning started. First, it was just the pastor and his wife, and the associate pastor and his wife that were acting “weird” around us. Then it spread to the care group leaders and their wives… then the “wanna be leaders”, and so forth and so on. But Jim was told repeatedly that this was not the case, that we weren’t being shunned, that it just was not happening. (Apparently, it was just our imagination. Ummm… yeah.) But it was happening. You can say one thing and do another, happens a lot. If they were angry with us for any perceived gossip and slander that was taking place from mine and Jim’s mouths (which didn’t happen), why not talk to us as friends and fellow Christians? Ask us instead of assuming it was true? And why did they turn their backs on us, becoming incommunicado, instead of giving us a chance to defend ourselves?
My opinion, humbly, of course, is either they were cowardly and afraid to confront us (which I don’t believe to be true), or they had an underlying reason for doing what they did… to get us out of their church and damage our relationships within our SGC. So that we wouldn’t take folks with us and start a new church. Which was never a desire of ours… we were too burnt out by that time to even think about doing something like that, but, also, we didn’t feel that it would be the right thing to do.
Other people have shared similar stories of their experiences at their old SGM churches. Same stuff, different day, only the names are different. I have come to the conclusion that this is modus operandi in SGM churches. It’s too coincidental that the same tactics and techniques used on us have been used on many others in other SGM churches all over the country. Coincidental? I think not. I think it is a widespread and customary maneuver on SGM’s part to “get rid of the perceived problem people within their ranks.” Questioning leadership is not tolerated, even if the questions are valid. That gets you the reputation of being problematic… therefore you must go. Is this biblical? I think not. Is this form of shunning biblical? I think not. Is the non-confrontation from the leadership biblical? I think not. Is the subtle form of the gossip and slander smear campaign the leadership waged against us biblical? I think not.
There needs to be reform in SGM and it’s churches. These things need to change. Not for us… we’ve already been there and done that. It’s for those involved in SGM or thinking of becoming a part of an SGM church.
This is the reality… these things could happen to you. I pray not, but I didn’t think it would ever happen to us, or the hundreds of folks out there, either.
But it did. And it will continue to happen until SGM changes their unbiblical methods.
Did I say you wouldn’t have to read another long post? Okay, I was on a roll and got “just a smidge” out of control. Couldn’t stop myself…
Jim and Carole,
Do you think these guys (the pastors) are taught this in the Pastor’s College? Are there any that did not go through the Pastor’s College (sometimes denom’s let you transfer your ordination in)?
I wonder about your pastor. On his bio, he’s lived in the area for 15 years, but just graduated from the PC in 2000. Since he graduated in 1990 with his undergrad, I am guessing that he pastored before SG (perhaps at that same church). Was he that way then? If he was not, then it would seem that he definately got it from the PC.
Carole,
One of the things that did the most damage in my own life at SGM was the way the leaders caused me to doubt my own abilities to hear God, or understand a situation. For you and Jim to be shunned and yet be told your were imagining it is weird but a tool of control that I saw in our SGM churches. Good thing you were strong enough in the Lord to see the falseness in what they were saying to you. It took me quite a number of years to finally understand that I HAD seen what I’d seen. I was in PDI/SGM since the young age of 18, and knew no other church. I was truly indoctrinated (though it happened slowly, over time). One day I was in a church that loved Jesus and His people. Several decades later, I was in a church that I didn’t recognize anymore. Yes, it happened that slowly.
I feel for the kids who grow up only knowing SGM, who have no idea they have little freedom in Christ, if any. For those kids, some of whom are now young adults, this site could be an open door to their prison cells. Their emergence into grace-filled lives might happen because of something someone says on this blog. If even one young person is set free to follow Jesus in the grace He bestows, without the bonds of legalism, then sgmrefuge would have truly lived up to its name! So, press on, speaking the truth in love, praying that others will hear and see!
Donn,
I know of one pastor, albeit not a senior, that never had to go to the PC.
I started an online journal of my journey out of my former SGM church and how difficult it has been for me. I left my SGM church “cold turkey” almost three months ago now after miraculously finding the SGMsurvivors blog online and God opening my eyes.
I am struggling this week. PLease pray for me! When there is more time and strength, I will share my story more. It is all very recent though, and my church was adopted into SGM and was not a church plant. It was adopted in during my time there. I had no idea what I was getting into, as many others can testify.
Concerned,
I’ve been praying for you! And will keep praying. Did you get my email?
Concerned,
Did you get my email? I sent it yesterday. We’re here for you, girl.
I’m praying too, Concerned.
Hi Donn,
I’ll have to answer your question with a non-answer. I don’t know if this is something that is taught in pastor’s college… there is no syllabus available to the “public” that I can find, anyway. But even if there were, I don’t think we would find “Shunning 101″ or “Heavy-Handed Control and Other Manipulative Tactics” listed on it.
As far as our pastor’s history … Jim wrote about that in one of his posts telling our story. He was a youth pastor when we met him, then started a church that he was sr. pastor of, which was adopted by SGM, and he subsequently went to pastor’s college.
Although, I don’t know what is taught there, I do know that SGM has leadership conferences and the like for further learning opportunities for their pastors.
I also know that when our pastor ran into a “problem”, he always sought advice from the elders above him… giving me reason to think that the advice given him by them was what he walked out. This information increases my belief that these unbiblical practices are taught (and learned)by SGM leadership.
I’m sure Jim will want to add his input later, but I hope I filled in at least some of the info you were seeking!
Grace,
Carole
Donn,
I’ve answered many of your questions in my posts. I know that it’s long reading, but only 3 posts.
Regarding the PC-some pastors need to go and some don’t, based on the evaluation of other SGM pastors.
I think it would be very helpful if these pastors and “apostles” actually involved the members of any given candidates current or former church.
These guys are really so above it all, they have no need for input from the “sheep”.
I’ll never understand this mindset, and actions such as these totally cancel out all talk about humility, and makes the well practiced humble demeanor these guys all share a little hard to swallow.
Hi Concerned, (I was wondering about you…)
I know EXACTLY how you are feeling!… and it’s definitely not “fun!” Please know that there are many of us who are carrying you in our hearts during this difficult time of adjustment, and are lifting you up in prayer. But, even more, God is holding you in the palm of His mighty hand!… and there is no better place to be!
He is with you, He will never leave you. Trust Him and follow Him, He will not lead you astray! Keep us posted on how you’re doing… and you can always email me anytime at SGMRefugeATgmailDOTcom.
Hey Canary,
SGM thinking is a long, subtle process. You are “there” before you even realize where “there” is. And I agree with you regarding the SGM young adults… I hope that they find the freedom in the Lord that is there for them. I’ve said it before, but I will say it again… if even one person is helped by this site and those who post here, it will be worth it! Thanks for posting… I always get excited when I look in the “recent posts” section and see anew one from you! Keep ‘em coming!
And Hi Ellie!
And I can’t forget to say “hi!” to my dear, sweet friend Gracie! I can’t tell you guys how much this dear lady has impacted my life! She befriended me and ministered to me, she counselled me and encouraged me, she was quick to lovingly confront and correct me. The amount of time she spent writing me emails is, in itself, amazing! She is a very wise woman who loves God deeply and loves God’s people passionately. I am very blessed, indeed, to have her as my friend! I love you, dear Gracie!
Dan,
Welcome!
I read your story on the SGMSurvivors site a while ago, and it touched my heart and affected me deeply. It has evoked the same response in my heart today as I sat and read it again. Thanks for sharing it here. Keep us posted on your journey… and, it was said in a previous post… man will (and does!) fail us, but God never does!
Praying for you,
Carole
Yesterday I was ready to give a long version of my experiences in PDI/SGM. Today, I feel that I should come at it from a different angle, one that is very personal. Deep breath. Okay, here I go.
When I met my ex-Pastor and his wife, I was very young, only eighteen. I was also a new believer. I came from a broken family. I was raised under a form of legalism, where outward appearance was very important. I was, unknowingly, a prime candidate for the type of practice that became prevalant in “church” – namely, a little grace mixed with alot of rules and expectations. The very night I was baptized and walking in waves of love from the Lord, a brother told me not to get use to those feelings. It was now time for the hard work to begin. I came crashing down from the great heights of communion with God. So, church wasn’t going to be any different from the way I grew up. Well, at least it was familiar. I’d fit right in.
The Pastor and wife that I met began a church in someone’s basement. This was back in the late 70′s when non-denominations were a new thing. The leaders and members were young. With youth comes exhuberance and pride. Somehow, the zeal for God kept our prideful moments in check. We were committed to living a New Testament life, building a community of belivers who would reach out to the lost. Our focus soon drifted from Jesus to building His church. We were eventually adopted by a group known at the time as PDI (later became SGM), led by a very enthusiastic Christian man, Larry Tomzcak. This was around 1983, I think. Everything changed after that.
An “Apostle” was invited to take charge of our little church. The two Elders, men we loved and trusted, were asked to step down. They soon left. Care groups were reorganized. Our Pastor had to step down temporarily, to be proven by this Apostle, who took over everything. A church split followed, as well as church discipline of a few people who did not submit to the new “authority”.
I was married the following year, and my husband and I began our family. A very lonely, dry time followed. It was as though I had been put off into a dessert. My prideful, youthful days were disappearing under the reality of giving myself to my family. It was good for me, yet very lonely.
Over the years, our church began to change. Our Pastor was re-established. Teaching became more about doctrine than Jesus. Grace was preached for the first time, but hardly mentioned again. We were definitely under church rule. A hierarchy was established. Leaders became exclusive. My family moved into a neighborhood next to my husband’s good friend from college and his family. They were in leadership. Before our move, they told us that living near them didn’t mean we could be their best friends, as they had relationships to invest in with leadership. This wasn’t to be the last time we heard this sort of thing.
The Pastor’s time was spent more and more on people being molded for entrance into leadership. Our leaders became a part of a hierarchy where, if you needed a Pastor’s help, you had to go through your CG leader first. Pastors became more isolated from the little guys. They were busy investing their time in the people whom they felt were called to leadership. These people were the ones who showed the most submission, had their family life (at least on the surface) in order, and were tried and tested in loyalty to the upper leaders. Somehow, this made me believe that the only way God would truly be pleased with my husband and myself was if we became CG leaders some day. This meant man-pleasing, which I was very good at, due to my upbringing. There was also fear that we not step outside of the “umbrella of protection” established by our church. If only I had known then that this was mere superstition, as were some of the other practices in church.
Eventually, my husband was asked to lead a care group, although he was warned that a chance was being taken on him. I now realize that it wasn’t a matter of whether he was mature enough in Christ, as much as how loyal he was to leadership – this was the chance being taken. Funny, after we began leading a homegroup, it wasn’t like I imagined. There were people who needed care, but my love was just too small. I didn’t know how to support my husband.
Then, the Lord spoke to my husband about becoming part of a new churchplant down south. When he mentioned it to me, I was horrified. Leave our church, our friends? I had never been anywhere else. These were our people. I hardly new anyone going on the church plant. I had no faith for this.
We went to a conference put together for PDI churches. During worhsip one night, I told the Lord I’d be willing to follow my husband anywhere. The Lord suddenly filled me with faith to go on the church plant. It was complete. I never looked back. So amazing.
Well, our Pastor was agaisnt us moving. He made it clear that he had plans for us. We told him that we had to obey God’s word to us. He was not supportive, but did not try to stand in our way. We left without a church goodbye. The only people who saw us off were a few friends. We had been a part of this group for over ten years, yet left quietly, as though we no longer existed to the Pastor and his wife.
In our new home, we planted ourselves as quickly as possible. I was very insecure in my new environment. Pressure to perform became more overwhelming. Inside of myself, I could hear my heart crying out for something, but for what I did not know. I tried my hardest to meet the expectations placed on women in the church. With five young children under nine, I could never catch up on laundry, cleaning, or serving my husband. Then there were multiple “opportunities” to serve the church. We were actually signed up for different areas of service, such as children’s ministry, without being asked. Life was going in full motion, but I just kept getting much sadder, heavier, and more fearful than ever.
These are some things that I saw: PDI leaders moved from what seemed to be true humility in the Lord into a pride in their knowledge of doctrine. I saw them stop the Holy Spirit from moving amongst the people on several occassions. I saw more emphasis placed on obeying leaders rather than on walking in your own faith. Leaders became more distant. Women who had once been joyful began to look burdened. Their eyes began to show a sort of desperation. I felt that same thing all the time. Surely this isn’t all there was to knowing the Lord? Follow doctrine, tell your sins at care group, bake brownies for some function, be at every meeting (or you felt guilty), feeling guilty because you couldn’t keep up with everything expected of you…at one point our pastor even preached that we should have no junk drawers. Can you imagine a mother of five worrying about her junk drawers? I couldn’t even get the mountain of laundry done!
Now for confession: I do not blame all my dependency on leaders on the church. My heart was also to blame. I wanted a king to rule me, a man to walk my walk of faith. My ego was involved. I wanted to be the best of the best in my Christian walk. I wanted to be like the “holy men” who led us, because then I would be acceptable to God. This wrong thinking enabled my slavery to the rules of men. My need to please these leaders kept me in service to a false gospel. I won’t speak for my husband. This was my failing, completely and utterly mine.
I began to hunger for more of God. I wanted an authentic experience with Him. Church was not enough anymore. I had to have Jesus! My heart began moaning for Him, in the grip of fear and desperation. I could no longer keep up with the SGM machine. I was always falling short. I wanted out.
Now I’m going to share an experience I don’t speak of often. If you are a cessationist, you probably want to skip this part. One morning, as I was on my knees in my room, praying desperately for more of Jesus, I had a deep experience. Suddenly, it felt like Jesus was in the room with me. He was sitting on His throne, looking down at me with great sympathy but a mighty sternness. If I could have fallen through the floor, I would have. I could tell that He knew what was in my heart. I was Pharasee, a legalist, a person without the knowledge of grace. I began to cry and tremble. I don’t know how long we sat together. For days after, I walked around saying, “Who can stand before God?” I was totally undone. I was made to look into God’s cup of wrath, yet not made to drink. This was my Isaiah experience. Truly, who can stand before God?
This went on for about a week. One night, I was watching a “Matthew” video. I got to the end, where the actor playing Jesus looks straight into the camera and smiles a beautiful, complete smile of love and acceptance. Tears streamed down my face as I rewound over and over to see that smile. The Lord had looked at me sternly, shown me His cup of wrath, kept me from drinking of it, then smiled at me with total acceptance and love. My heart overflowed with joy. I was forgiven. Jesus paid the price. I would never suffer God’s wrath!
I have to go now to a doctor’s appt. I will finish this story later tonight or tomorrow.
Dan,
Thank you so much for posting. I’m reluctant to comment when people tell their stories-Carole is so much better at it.
Let me just say that I’m deeply affected, and so grateful to God for your faithfulness, and His faithfulness to you!
P.S. God didn’t put me into a “dessert” but into a “desert”. Just thought I’d clarify…I have images of myself swimming in chocolate and whip cream!
Hey Canary!
What a story! It doesn’t surprise me, but that doesn’t make it any less heart wrenching. Can’t wait to hear the rest!
OH!… thanks for clarifying the “dessert” statement… I WAS wondering about the “dessert” you had been put off into.
I was thinking something chocolate-y… didn’t sound too bad to me! 
(Seriously, I knew what you meant… the old typing fingers sometimes do that to me, too!)
Thanks Jim and Carole so much for your kind words! It’s so stupid isn’t it, there’s still a part of me that hits “Publish” and then is almost too scared to come back and look to see what is said, just in case its’s “SGM-like”!!
Sue, thanks so much also for your wonderful lovely comments. Again – it meant so much. I will definately consider that idea of asking my pastor-friend Pete to contact them direct. That would be interesting to see what happens and how they respond to him!
I must admit the temptation is to follow the testimony of that young guy – how my heart goes out to him! My non-Christian friends are so accepting and so loving and cannot understand the tension and the trauma and why I carry on fighting. It’s so sad to look within the church and just see defeat and cold celibacy and misery. There’s no hope, optimism, talk of a loving Father who gives strength to triumph!
Thanks again everyone so much!!
Carole,
Thanks for your encourgement. For some reason, posting what I did took alot out of me. I think I’ll wait until later to finish. I’m still not quite comfortable getting “vulnerable” with others. There were too many times where vulnerability at SGM was very costly. Thanks for giving us all a safe place to post.
I think I’ll go eat some chocolate…hee-hee
Sue,
Have you ever posted under a different name, or are you new? Good advice that you gave Dan. I, too, wondered if he was able to get help from loving Christians. His situation is a little tougher than some of ours, because he still has family involved in SGM. What a lot of pressure that must be!
Is the Matthew actor doing the book of John right now? Wow, I want to know when that comes out. He was so able to capture the joy that is in Jesus. Before that, the only Jesus you ever saw in movies was somber and mystic. Bruce M. made Jesus into a real man, someone we could understand and relate to. To see Jesus full of laughter and joy truly changed my heart.
Dan,
Hugs to you from across the pond. You have to believe that none of us are going to respond to your posts with anything but love and understanding. We want to help you find truth in Jesus, and we will not condemn you. Let me ask you this: if it was 2000 years ago when Jesus visited the earth, would he have found you hanging out with the Pharasees and Sadducees, or with the tax collectors and prostitutes? The first group might seem more religious and noble, but they rejected and slandered our Lord. The second group became disciples, apostles, and martyrs. They were received by Jesus even before they repented and changed. They took the gospel to the nations. Which group do you relate to more? I suspect the latter. Alot of us who left SGM do. We know our flaws, our sins, our unworthiness, yet we know we’ve been received by Christ. He is in the process of making us like Himself. Leave the Pharasees behind, Dan. Unless God opens their eyes, they will never understand. Be devoted to Jesus, allow Him to change you into the man of God you are suppose to be. You can go back to your friends and be a light. Who knows how many of them have only heard a false gospel? You can bring them the truth, as God changes you. I hope I haven’t stepped out of bounds by saying these things to you. I am by no means a counselor or therapist or pastor. But I feel an intensity about what you’re going through. Devote yourself to Jesus alone, become like Him by the power of His Holy Spirit. Then, everything else will fall into place as it was meant to.
Okay, now I’m going to shut up and go eat my chocolate.
In a ‘nut shell’ conversion mid 70″s .. Heavily influenced by Derek Prince,and some of the spiritual gift teaching God was giving the church through the charismatic episcopal movement in the pacific northwest at the time. Then jumped in pretty heavily through non- denominational/pentecostal churches and the shepherding movement. Then Earl Paulk influences, then Word of Faith with Haggin and Copeland,Hicky,Price,then more shepherding with some AG influences and ministry application some Wilkerson and Teen Challenge and Calvary Chapel.
Augh…so I wander into a SG after attending a PCA for a few years and see quickly what I had left prior in all those other places exhibiting itself in a SG and knew right away that there was abuse going on.
I have had some difficulty trying to explain this. It’s not the charismatic gifting excesses that is the problem because SG doesn’t exercise those gifts like I have seen in my previous churches but what they do share is the ‘moses model’,apostolic covering/ shepherding stuff that is wrong. Another HUGE problem is SG’s patriarchy which is nowhere to be found in New Testament teaching,this they share with PCA though.
That’s why my initial comment when you started this blog that these abuses go FAR beyond just SG. It is rampant in most charismatic congregations that I have been to and it stems from the “Florida 5″. It is still infiltrating the church and it is a HUGE ERROR,that and the fact that true apostolic authority no longer exists today. Gifting “yes”,position/office
“no.”
Seriously brainwashing is what is happening. People are being discipled wrong right from the start and there are serious ‘cracks’ in the foundation.
My ideal church would be the following:
1. Cal-minian
2. Genuine encouragement and exercising of spiritual gifting with HEALTHY oversight.
3. EGALITARIAN leadership in churches and marraiges.
4. Strong mercy ministrys with more emphasis from John Perkins and christian community development applications.
5. Ditch the pulpit driven ministry only. EVERYONE has something to share. Oversight by elders NOT pastor(s)
6. Freedom to move around and work with other churches and ministries and not be told your in rebellion.
7. Lastly psych evals of church leadership and accountability to the congregation of the direction the church is heading.
8 Lastly if it is to be pulpit driven then not to expect or put pressure on a pastor to stay in the position longer than 7 years if he does not desire
Hope I didn’t freak anybody out to badly. But that is my story and it’s real. And painful,alot of it. But I still love Jesus and am glad I got out of alot of it. Sad thing now is I struggle where to go. It’s like I know too much now.
One more thing. Dan I am sorry for your pain. Another thing SG shares with all of my other screwed up cult like churches is the lack of education in both theology and counseling from people who have no business being in alot of the positions they are in.You were given BAD direction.. There are other ministries that deal specifically with some of your past history. I would try there. God bless you though for your attempts at still trying to break bread with SG ‘christians’.
Carole,
Thank you for your very kind words. I love you too!
Canary,
I totally understand that posting your story took a lot out of you. I can easily relate to the scenario you went through with PDI and the areas where the Lord showed you to repent. Our stories are very similar. I had not realized that before. Thank you for your willingness, not only to expose the PDI/SGM errors you experienced, but also to be transparent with your own shortcomings in the whole process. Humility is a lovely quality.
Dan,
There is something very precious about you. Grace to you as you “carry on fighting.” You are in our prayers.
Sonya,
Wow, you have seen it all! I’m glad you still love Jesus. I can relate to the struggle to find a church and the seen-too-much, know-too-much feeling. Still trying to “land” somewhere myself.
Hi Everyone!
Our power has been out all afternoon (for 6 hours… SIX!.. in Florida… in June… I realized I am so spoiled with my electronic everything! But especially my AC and my internet access. Can you say much conviction was taking place today?… amid the grumbling and complaining, of course!
) The power was just restored moments ago… YAY! So we are back in business. 
(I must admit that as soon as the electricity came on, Jim and I both ran… yes, literally RAN for our computers! Is there any hope for us?!?!) 
Dan… Thanks for coming back!
This truly is a safe place and besides, you are “family.”
Canary… I know how emotionally draining telling your story can be. It brings back so many memories. But, I have to say (having “known you through your posts for a while now), it’s very evident that God has brought you a long, long way! But take your time, as long as you want. We’ve settled in and we’re gonna be here for a while!
Sonya… Thanks for sharing your story and your thoughts. The shepherding movement is alive and well, using different terminology, of course. But as they say… “A rose is a rose…” Looking forward to hearing more from you!
In Him
Carole
Carole,
FL in June with no air conditioning – yuck. Here in the mountains of CO it is a cool 50 something. I don’t think summer wants to start!
Sonya,
Interesting take on the Shepherding movement. Why is it we so easily give up our freedom in Christ to follow men/women who claim to speak for God? That question could start a whole, new topic!
{{{{{{{{{{{Dan}}}}}}}}}}}
Love you, sweetie!!
{{{{{{Canary}}}}}}}}}}
Thanks for sharing, Sonya and Sue!
Carole and Jim, glad you got your power back!! Stay cool!
I’m going to finish up what I started yesterday. Thanks to all of you for listening. Though it is hard to speak of, I want others out there under authoritarian church rule to see how different their lives can be when they recover their freedom in Christ.
After my Isaiah-like experience, I began to hunger for the Lord. I read alot of Andrew Murray books. My bible became fresher to me. My friend, who was going through a similar experience, would call me and we’d talk for long periods of time. We were fellowshipping in a way I hadn’t really known before.
For a period of about two months, I began missing church meetings due to sick children. My husband began to notice that I was growing in grace. When I’d go to a meeting, I would stumble into the old fears and expectations. He began to see that I did better spiritually when I was away from SGM. That began to puzzle and intrigue him.
A time of refreshing came to our church. Sundays would find men, women, and children going to the front of the theatre where we met, praying and weeping. My husband and oldest son were among those. Though they both found it difficult to speak of what was happening to them, my husband and son experienced definite heart changes because the Holy Spirit touched them. They, too, began to want more of Jesus.
All too soon, the SP stopped the times of refreshing. When asked, our CG leader said the SP decided that it wasn’t the direction he wanted our church to go in. The Holy Spirit’s moving amongst us was no longer welcome. Now, understand that there were no abuses that I could see, just sincere people being touched by God. Still, it was not what the SP wanted to happen.
At the same time, women were going off to have their own CG meetings, and men to theirs. The first few times our little group of women met, we bonded through prayer, confession, and love. There was such beauty in the way the Lord was bringing us together. Suddenly, the freedom we experienced was taken away. We were given lists of sins to talk about at the meetings. No longer was the Holy Spirit free to move. We were put into a strangle hold. My friend and I labored over the cg questions, trying to answer honestly, but it felt so forced. It just wasn’t real. My husband became involved as he saw how stressed out I would become over going to a women’s meeting. He saw that the grace I was newly walking in was being squashed by the forced sin-digging. Our whole church was becoming like this. Every meeting was about our sin. The freedom, the love of God, the hope began to drain away. We heard hardly anything about Jesus. The focus was more and more on doctrine and the cross, our sin nature, etc. Our souls were so hungry for more of Jesus. It became apparent that there was a real problem.
We and two other couples met with the leadership. We truly loved and respected one of these men, whom we’d known for years. Imagine our surprise and dismay to find that he was defensive, impatient, and even angry because we had questions about why he stopped the Holy Spirit from moving in our church. I looked at these leaders and realized that they had no love for us. You could tell that they’d been through these kind of meetings before. They had an agenda. It turned out to be, follow their vision for the church, or go somewhere else. I knew suddenly that I was free of these false shepherds. They had no real interest in my soul, only my obedience to them. My husband felt the same way.
Of course, the SP would disagree with our point of view. We know what we saw and heard that night. It caused us to flee this church like the hounds of hell were on our heels. If we had remained, we would have lost our focus on Christ. We would have sold Him out for doctrine, church building, and sin-digging. I’m sorry, but that sort of focus just doesn’t satisfy the hungry soul.
During the years after we left, we became part of a small house church of other ex-sgmers. For three or four years, we helped each other heal. Two of the men were saved and baptized. So were some of our children. I did enter into a time of depression as the Lord re-educated me. There was so much about Him that I did not know, so many misperceptions. He was faithful to walk me through, partly because of the grace that my husband constantly showed me. It was as though all my plate spinning ceased to exist. The plates fell to the floor and shattered. The house was never clean, the laundry never finished, meals were sparce…I just couldn’t funtion. I questioned everything I’d been taught. Yet still, my husband patiently encouraged me, releasing me from all expectations. Through his actions, I learned the truth about God’s abundant grace. Eventually, I was able to serve my family again.
I also learned, during more difficult times, about God’s goodness. During one of my more fearful moments, I heard the Lord ask, “Don’t you believe in My goodness?” After 20 years of faithful attendance and involvement in an SGM church, I looked up at the sky with a frown and answered the Lord. “I don’t know what that means, Lord. I don’t understand.”
So He proceeded to show me. I went through a serious health crisis that continued for about five months. During the hospital trips, Dr.’s visits, and testing, I saw the Lord meet my needs at every turn. When I was afraid, He got to the hospital before me. He put angels called nurses into my life at just the right moments. When I had to have an MRI, and was terrified of being enclosed in the machine, the Lord gave me courage. I laid down on the bed, and it was rolled into the MRI machine. The minute I got inside, the Lord was already there. He communed with me during the 25 minutes of my isolation. He spoke of me becoming like a butterfly leaving its cocoon. He made special promises to me that I still hold close to my heart.
After surgery and weeks of recovery, I began to see how the Lord had changed me. I could now say to Him, “Yes, Lord. I do believe in your goodness.”
In 2006, my husband and I, along with our five kids and multiple animals, relocated to the mountains of CO. We are beginning to know the body of Christ in this little community, though we have not committed to one church alone. We know that we are waiting for something that the Lord wants to give. I continue to walk in grace. I have learned how to love. When I fall short of love, I know where to go to get a re-filling. I trust in God’s goodness, now. I walk in the freedom that the Lord has given me, yet I do not desire to sin. I have found that the more love the Lord stirs in me for Him, the less I want to hurt Him by doing wrong. It is grace that keeps me, not passion for doctrine or unquestioning obedience to a group of leaders.
When my husband pointed me to the SGMSurvivor’s blog, I was dismayed, alarmed, and yet comforted by the many similar stories being told about the controlling spirit of SGM. Somehow, after eleven years of being away from them, I had come to hope that things had changed for the better. It seems they have changed for the worse. I am so sorry to hear that. If the leaders won’t listen after the mountain of times their wrong behavior has been addressed, then maybe the people will. It is foolish to blindly follow a group or a man without any faith of your own. It is a travesty to relinquish your freedom in Christ. He shed His blood to give you that! My husband has said that, one day, we will all stand alone before the Lord. We won’t have our pastor, our cg leader, or our accountablity partner beside us. We will stand or fall based on our own faith. Before we can be a church, we must be our own, individual temples where Christ is revered. The bride that Jesus is returning for will not be a blind follower of men and traditions. He is looking for the bride who has filled her lamp with oil, is waiting expectantly, keeping fully awake until her Bridegroom comes. That is the sort of church I want to be a part of.
Sorry for the length of this post. I have to admit that it is nice to be finished. It’s not easy to go back and stir up old memories like these. However, if anyone receives ears to hear and eyes to see because of reading this, then it’s worth the effort. God’s favor and spiritual blessing be with you all.
Sue,
In reference to post #32, you’ve hit it on the head. You could write a book!
No. I want nothing to do with emergent. It’s repackaged liberal protestanism with new age and aspects of catholicism thrown in.
sorry for the harshness. I attend a reformed church for now that is not spirit filled.I will stay there for now.
Regarding emergent/emerging, Mark Driscol does a good job (from his perspective) outlining the 4 lanes of the emerging church. he would define “emergent” as the liberal, 4th lane, and speaks from experience, as he used to be affiliated with the current leaders. You won’t agree with everything he says, but it is an accurate overview.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58fgkfS6E-0
Sue said:
“It’s so Old Covenant to be focused on sin and really what SG teaches is the spirit of anti-Christ.”
It took me a while to understand this. No wonder I always felt so overwhelmed and discouraged. NOBODY can keep the whole law perfectly. The law was given to show our need for a Savior. Christ fulfilled the law within our hearts. We are no longer under law, but under grace. Paul wrote: “For I through the Law have myself died to the Law and all the Law’s demands upon me, so that I may live to and for God” Gal. 2:19.
Hi All!
Canary, Thank you so much for sharing the rest of your story! I know how painful it is to re-visit these hurtful times in our lives… I truly do appreciate your courage to post it here, and that you feel comfortable and safe enough here to open up your heart and your life to us. Thank you!
BUT!… How encouraging is the rest of your story!!!
How faithful God has been and how gracious, kind and loving He shows Himself when we are “allowed” to hear His sweet, still voice for ourselves, without a mediator (meaning SGM). THAT’S the part of your story that I will read again and again! How great is GOD!!!
Canary…
“We are no longer under law, but under grace.”
Amen, Sister!!
“….So today after examining my heart for any trace of self-righteousness, any hint of moral superiority in my soul, I have prayed that God would use these circumstances to obtain the attention of Sovereign Grace Ministries, I pray that God would strategically provide individuals to care for these men at this time and share the gospel ….
(http://www.sovereigngraceminis.....-XLII.aspx)
Yuk… All right, never mind. I thought those words were sanctimonious the first time I read them, and since I was never good at imitating El Premo doctrinal Mover and Shaker C. J. Mahaney, all those years ago I won’t start now.
But it does seem like there should be some grand spiritual divine intro to the start of every story. These stories on this blog are grave tidings. They are solemn and sobering testimonies. And I know why we think it important to hope for great and virtuous things: repentance, reform, revelation.
However, in my mind, some broader appeal to divine virtue is useless. SGM will not see any pronouncement of pure motive sufficient to what folk on this blog are saying. By default they believe ANY criticism of their methods and practice are a moral failing on the part of the critic AT BEST! At worst they believe the critic to be in divine sedition.
So I will dispense with the pretense. My comments about SGM and its leadership are what they are: a scathing criticism of Spiritual Tyranny.
The hardest part of talking about PDI/CLC/SGM experience is it is an EVENT that takes place around some of the most personal stuff. By EVENT I mean a long standing progression of interaction. There is never a single moment, one deciding action where the victim can point and say: “yup, right there, that is the bad thing I’m talking about.”
The abuse and tyranny occurs largely in private about things most folk would like to keep private. To get the conflict you need the details—often embarrassing details. While most people find the details of their life interesting, everybody else finds them tedious or scandalous. So how do you tell a story that has lots of UGLY, lots of NECESSARY, but oh so boring details?
Told well or poorly what follows is my attempt.
(Queue Violin music)
I came to the then PDI/CLC a mess: an intemperate, impatient, seriously depressed, 25 year old with a catastrophically flawed marriage, and a life that just wasn’t working. I did what everyone does when they are in pain. I went to find help.
Forgive me for mixing pronouns but the story proceeds for a bit as a WE (Think wife and me) initial efforts at help were pretty good. Bob Hoover—then pastor within CLC—was even handed in his frank commentary of my failings and my wife’s at the same time being very compassionate. (I know Bob, you don’t like it when I give you credit. I know they frown in your direction when I speak well of you. Heheh… I won’t tell them of our secret meeting if you don’t.)
For reasons of internal CLC organization we were given over to robin boysvert It got ugly from there. SGM leaders enter all counseling sessions with some hard and fast assumptions. There is not enough space to ferret out each in this post, but robin went down the list of assumptions and tried attaching them to me and my motives and just missed. When I pointed out he was off base, he began with the “don’t you trust us?” “If you don’t why are you here?” line. And when that didn’t cow me he tried to run over me with Theology. And he never expected me to talk that language at all, let alone with detail. And then I got the classic dismissal: “John you are proud. John you are arrogant.”
(rising crescendo)
If I was hurt before, this was flatly crushing. In another place and another time, I probably would have blown it off. Indeed, I’d suffered plenty of criticism from quarters that most folk could not dream by the time I was 25. But at that point in life I’d hit my limits.
I heard the appeals from the pulpit to emulate the Ken Sande book: come redress grievances. So I took it at face value. I wrote CJ a letter and told him of my experience.
If I thought robin was impatient with dissent … (snort)
OK… see you need details don’t you.
CJ began with telling me he and robin had talked. CJ had the very same assumptions about me and his approach to counseling was strikingly similar. I didn’t agree with robins assessment much, so I certainly didn’t agree with El Premo doctrinal mover and shaker. When I didn’t immediately accept his take on my attempt at reconciliation, he trotted out the: “don’t you trust us?” “If you don’t, why are you here?” litany. And then he tried the Theology stuff, but only briefly. And then when it didn’t cow me, I got the “John you are proud. John you are arrogant.”
Hummm… if you don’t see the pattern emerging just yet, don’t feel bad. I didn’t either. But I did get a free copy of the Ken Sande book: a little better than a stuffed bear I suppose.
Anyway, did WE (me AND wife) walk out the door? Did we toss our indignant hands in the air because we’d not been told what our itching ears wanted to hear? Nope. See, the other part of the SGM dynamic is they do Christian stuff really well. They do the industry of Church REALY well. And CJ is stone cold funny and when he’s not trying so hard he has great social commentary. And they give you every opportunity to believe they are the only game in town; and aren’t you oh so fortunate to have found such a thing. Isn’t it a privilege? Aren’t PDI/CLC leader’s men of such great character. Isn’t it better that they value true spiritual things. Isn’t it a wonder: God led you HERE!
The SGM spiritual elitism is soooo very infectious: it is a heady tonic. (Drink deep at your own risk)
Six or seven years past in my time at CLC/PDI. In the beginning I drank deep of the CJ mojo juice. (I know, they think I never really tried to fit in, but that would be them wrong about me … AGAIN.) The details of those seven years would be the boring parts. I discuss the length and breadth of this dynamic in my book Blight in the Vineyard: Getting Free of the Myths and Tyrannies of Sovereign Grace Ministries. (It is in post-production now I am working diligently to get it in paperback form.) But the pattern above proved to be set in stone.
(theme song from Star Wars: Darth Vader entrance)
What is the pattern?
First, SGM leaders kibitz amongst themselves about counseling sessions. Have a conversation with ANYBODY in leadership and the whole bunch will know most of the issue.
SGM leaders approach all conversations with entrenched expectations. They expect everyone to emulate the PDI/CLC/SGM Method and Manner.
Disagree with their pastoral assessment. They try to manipulate: “don’t you trust us?”
When that doesn’t pause your objections they trot out the Reformed Theology primer. And oh dear lord, do not even hint that you believe their doctrine is wrong (particularly if you are a mere woman). They are so sure they got all the right answers that you can not possibly have been as thorough as they. CJ has been given a greater measure after all.
And if that doesn’t make you nice and compliant, and supplicating, and solicitous, and subservient—opps a servant, they accuse you of character failing—pride and arrogance.
And if none of that works…. They just nod toward the door and say “maybe you should start your own church.”
It is my experience they LOVE the Matthew 18 ethic as long as YOU are reconciling to THEM.
Every conflict I had at PDI/CLC followed this progression. CJ, robin boysvert, John Loftness, Ken Moresco and a half a dozen bit players. Every one. And every conflict I observed followed that same path.
Coincidence? Read the rest of these stories and you tell me…
Since I can’t emulate CJ worth a hoot here is what I pray: God, have these men live and not die. Open the eyes of their understanding to the gospel of the Anointed one and His Anointing: that removes burdens and destroys yokes, and sets at liberty them who are captive…. but hey God, could you wait a while… they give me so much to write about: spiritualtyranny.com!
John,
I’m a fan. I love reading what you write, no matter what your topic of choice may be. Thank you for posting!
Ok- I have 2 issues:
1)I’m holding on to hope for reform.
2) Your post was far too brief.
Hey John!
I agree with Jim!
And your insights are right on the money… Thanks for posting, and we are looking forward to more (MUCH more
) from you!
John said:
“And oh dear lord, do not even hint that you believe their doctrine is wrong (particularly if you are a mere woman).”
John,
You hit that one on the head. I didn’t realize how condescending these men could be towards us women until after we left. Then, memories of tongue-in-cheek remarks, ways of looking at us, and even ignoring things we said came flooding back. Oh, that’s why they looked at me like that! Oh, that’s why I felt like I was just patted on the head and told to “shoo”. I find it sort of funny, now. Let them try that today on this woman and (respectfully) I’d give them an ear full. But don’t get me started.
Carole,
You are so sweet. God is good and God is love. And I “feel” the love on this blog. Wish we lived closer to each other!
Jim,
I, too, hope for reform in SGM. This might seem nieve, but I have never believed that my ex-leaders meant to harm anyone. I think they are blind to their actions. Their knowledge puffs them up. Their passion for doctrine has replaced their passion for Jesus. If the Lord could change Saul to Paul, He can change anyone. So we keep hoping.
Canary,
I wouldn’t mess with ya!
I wish we lived closer, too! Wouldn’t it be nice to visit over coffee with the others? A friend of mine (Gracie) and I have expressed this same sentiment… and also how cool it is of God to knit hearts together over the internet! Who would have thunk… but OH! how thankful I am that He is doing just that!! I appreciate you all so much!
Carole,
Gracie and I email back and forth. She’s a gem. Do you guys know each other, are you in the same town?
She is a gem!!
She has reached out to me and impacted my life so much with her wisdom and her grace. (Her “name” is very appropriate, doncha think?!?)
No we don’t live near each other… I wish we did, though!… I would LOVE to visit with all of you in person. THAT would be so fun!! (Email is better than nothing, though.)
How are you doing, post-story writing? I’ve been thinking about you today… it’s tough to re-live the SGM days and actually write it out. You are a champ in my book!
Hello to all,
I am a first time poster on this site, I have posted quite a bit on the other blog. I am jumping on the bandwagon here, wasn’t planning to, but I really sense the love and genuine care and concern going on here, and I feel like I am in a much better place than I was at the start of the other blog and thought it would be a good thing to share a bit of my journey. Jim and Carole, you are bold and I appreciate the truth you share and the way you are pursuing love and honest care on this blog. It is very refreshing!! Many blessings to you both! I will be back to share my story later! Grace to you all!
Lydia! Welcome!
Thank you for your kind words… we DO have a passion for God and His people, especially those who have been hurt by SGM churches. We’ve been there. We know how it feels. And we know that it is biblically wrong. For Jim and I, it would have been wrong to sit back and not speak out against the unbiblical teachings of this movement. There are too many people lying around, broken and wounded, and we just couldn’t turn our backs and go on, selfishly, with our own lives, unaffected by that.
Having said that, we have absolutely no expectations from anyone here to post anything they don’t want to, or feel led by God to post. It truly is a safe place. No pressure!
SGMSurvivors is a great site! Kris and Guy have been an agent of God in my life to help bring me to the place I’m at now. I will be forever thankful to them for their courage to start their blog and to give us (ex-SGMer’s) a forum to speak about our experiences and to find each other. I hold them near and dear to my heart.
Looking forward to hearing more from you! I hope you will find this to be a place of refuge, hope, and love!
Carole (AKA I Survived SGM on the SGMSurvivors site… just thought I’d throw that in, as some of you have been quite surprised to find out that I am one and the same… don’t know if that helps or hurts… LOL!)
Thanks Carole, (I mean I survived SGM)
I am grateful for you and for Guy and Kris! This is no easy thing you all have taken on, but I am sure you will be empowered by God’s grace to go forward as He leads you!! I feel no pressure whatsoever to post, but like you feel compelled to share because I too cannot sit back and support what SGM is doing to many lives! I long to see them be set free and the leaders to truly see the extent of damage being done and repent and start preaching the pure Gospel of Grace boldly and truly!!!!!!!! They are not doing that currently. Like Canary said it’s a bit of grace and lot “to do’s”. Anyway, when I get time I will share my brief story!!! Much Grace, and many blessings to all who read here!!
Lydia,
Jim and I have much hope for SGM, too! They have many good things going for them, but have taken it to an extreme level, which God never intended, and, in a lot of their teachings, have totally stepped out of “biblicalness” (is that even a word???) and are living an abusive, cultish lifestyle and expecting their members to adopt it and live it.
But I continue to hope and pray for reform within the ranks of SGM leadership… after all, God is a very, very big God!… He saved me and changed me… He can change SGM, too!
I can’t wait to hear more from you… and to get to know you better and better as we build this little “community” here.
Grace and Peace,
Carole
What alarms me of late about SGM is that, when I post my story (soon, I hope) you will see that it took place twenty years ago. Canary’s exit from SGM was 11 years ago. Jim and Carole’s exit was 2 years ago. And Concerned left three months ago. These four stories are just a small sampling of the numerous stories told on the survivors blog that span two decades or more. It is alarming how similar my story is to everyone else’s and that the same abuses have continued for so long. Some of the things Canary’s pastors said to her are EXACTLY the same things we were told, though we were in different parts of the country with different pastors at the helm.
This confirms again what I have long suspected. The authoritarian structure, the emphasis on sin, the tactics regarding how to deal with “problem” members MUST be taught from above. As I have said before (somewhere?), when we disagreed and confronted our PDI leader, there was a system already set in place to very quickly “deal” with us.
Gracie,
EXACTLY!
This is why we must bring this into the light of the public square.
If this was just a “Jim & his former church” issue, I’d handle that in a much different way.
What we talk about here are clearly SGM distinctives.
Gracie, Canary, Ellie – thanks for your prayers, didn’t get all the emails though!
Canary has my private email if you guys want it. Things going better and then they fall apart. The enemy is really trying to discourage me, then one minute I have crazy thoughts of returning, then God speaks and says RUN! It’s been strange. But He is keeping me focused on himself. Leaving an SGM church is the hardest thing I have ever done spiritually. Amazing how even our leaving is testimony to how jacked up the methodology of these churches are. To cause such a reaction in us emotionally and spiritually, it’s been a wild ride.
Carole asked Canary:
“How are you doing, post-story writing? I’ve been thinking about you today…”
I’m doing all right. Just a little bit of squirming on the inside still, but it will settle down, I’m sure. I haven’t shared those things with many others. Felt it was time.
And yes, Gracie’s real name is VERY appropriate!
Gracie, you make a good point. Isn’t it just awful that the things we went through are still happening to others? It is like SGM is stuck in a time warp. And it isn’t just in that group. There are even more extreme authoritarian churches out there! Ugh!
It IS a wild ride, Concerned! But worth it in the long run… FREEDOM is worth the price you are paying right now, even if it doesn’t FEEL like it at times. God has greater plans for you, rather than the bondage SGM offers.
We continue to pray for you!
Carole
Concerned,
I’m sending mucho hugs [[[[Concerned]]]]. I will re-send your email address to the girls. Hang on to the Lord and shut out the many voices that are shouting to your spirit. Eventually, you will understand more about how some of these “voices” are so wrong, and it won’t be hard to reject them. Right now, you just need to GET OUT!! We’re here for you!
Canary,
I’m sorry you are still feeling “squirmy”… it’s difficult to share such hard, personal things with “strangers.” You are a brave woman, and I am confident that God will use it in the help and healing of others. I will keep praying for you!
Carole
Thanks, Carole. I think that you and Jim make it easier for others to share hard things. Your hearts are clearly filled with God’s love.
Canary,
Thank you!
And all of you make it easy for us to do what we’re doing here! Your support and encouragement and INPUT exudes love and concern… and THAT means the world to us! After all, this site belongs to ALL of us, it’s not just mine and Jim’s, simply because we are “hosting” it. Methinks God is building something good here… I feel my heart being knitted together with all of you! And that’s a good thing! 
Thanks, Carole.
After SGM, feeling like there is somewhere that I belong is an alien thing.
I know what you mean, Ellie!
But it’s great to begin feeling like we are a part of God’s people, again, doncha think?
It’s still somewhat foreign to me, but it’s kinda like eating ice cream after being on a very loooooooong diet. I can’t seem to get my fill!
(Almost decadent! LOL!)
I would just add to what Canary said about not realizing certain things till after you leave.
After I left CLC in the early to mid 90′s I was occasionally given CLC tapes by someone. Listening to Mahaney after leaving CLC I noticed how arrogant and assuming Mahaney could be. I didn’t notice it when I was repeatedly exposed to him.
I also realized that at least when I was there most of what Mahaney did was exhort with doing very little teaching from scripture.
As others have said, Mahaney is quite engaging and certainly has the gift of gab etc.
Steve240,
Hmmm…interesting. I haven’t, even after all this time, been able to sit through an SGM message again. Isn’t it weird that the very character quality they insisted we all must have, namely humility, was apparently lacking in some of them? I still can’t wrap my brain around that.
Aww wow, Canary, Ellie, Sue, Concerned … thanks so much to you all!!
I do feel so loved and love you all you guys too!! Just does feel like REAL family. Not the family that stand with the church and shake their heads sorrowfully and yet judgementally as they in their minds hand you over to ruin … but REAL family! Acceptance! Protection! It’s great!!
Must just pick up on one part of the story I forgot. #43 – John you mentioned about your interactions with the dreaded CLC leadership.
When things were at their darkest, but I didn’t yet feel ready to go speak to people’s faces and show them my scars on my arms and my thin waistline – I did actually email Covenant Life Church (stupidly) hoping that because they were a big established church – there would be grace there and maybe some advice.
I got an email back from the same Robin Boisvert. I had heard that he is an older experienced man (I DIDN’T know that he is Mahaney family .. eek!). But his email was rude and nasty also. He wanted to know why I had bothered emailing them and not gone first to the senior pastor in Bristol – he said he knew the senior pastor Nathan and testified that he is a “good man”. Right …
Anyhow that was the Robin Boisvert interaction. That email I sent too, also I think contributed to my disfellowshipment or whatever it’s called. I thought that it would demonstrate how desperate I was but apparantly it was proof that I was going behind leadership backs and not following the line of authority.
*que also Darth Vader music*
Secondly, I was so incensed by the whole manner in which I was treated at Grace Church in Bristol, that I wrote to the SGM leadership team – that’s right – all of them! Again rather naively I thought that they would be concerned at the way one of their churches was behaving.
I got a tiny note back from Dave Harvey who said that they washed their hands of the whole situation – that one Peter Greasley in Wales was the true father of the church so they were sending the letter to him. I then started getting emails from Greasley saying that I had misunderstood everything and demanding a meeting – just me and him and the senior pastor. Suprisingly enough I declined that meeting. I had enough of meetings by then where it was me sat alone facing the team of them! (Seeking to serve me of course …
I only add that just because reading the comments above, adds so much to my understanding of what happened. They really do sing from the same song sheet don’t they? It is quite scary and freaky really how clone-like they are.
I just found a video on You-Tube of Peter Greasey (the Wales SGM apostle) going round his library talking about books. I was quite interested because he is meant to be a well-read guy and indeed on the video you could see he had a wide range. But again typically he just pulled out all the SGM favourites … Jerry Bridges, John Owen (the abridged version), C J Mahaney (!!!), Bob Kaulfin etc etc.
What happened to independent thinking?! Free speeech!? What REALLY does happen in Pastor’s College to make them all think so absolutely alike!?!?
Dan, Robin is Mahaney family?
Dan,
As I was reading through your earlier post above, something occurred to me that I had either forgotten about, or just didn’t want to remember.
I remember sharing difficulties I was going through with the sr. pastor’s wife, not really defining a “specific sin”, but “this is what I’m feeling/thinking” kind of a thing.
Her response was (usually) defining my sin for me, which usually wasn’t correct, just her judgement and assumption. After praying and seeking God on the matter (which I should have done FIRST instead of going to “mere men”, but who knew?!?!), I would realize that her assumptions were completely incorrect or “over the top”, making it seem much, much worse than it really was. Then, whenever I would talk to her about similar things, her response would be, “Carole, you have struggled with this before, remember?” She had decided in her mind that I was guilty of the sins she had assigned to me. Sheeesh! And, of course, dumb, brainwashed sheep that I was, I never corrected her.
She was believing HER take and assigning sin to me that wasn’t there, then she would use that incorrect information against me.
Now, I’m not saying that I am/was “sin free.” Everyone who knows me would SHOUT at this point “Amen!)
And I’m also not saying that she was incorrect in her judgement ALL of the time… sometimes she was spot on. But to assume you know someone’s heart and struggles because… well, just because, is ludicrous, as well as very, proud.
I was just reminded of this tactic and wanted you to know that others have been judged, tried and hung out to dry because of incorrect judgement. Obviously, my case pales in comparison to yours! But I wonder if this is another SGM distinctive, another manipulative scheme SGM uses.
Things that make you go “Hmmmmm.”
Thanks Sue! We aim to please!
We are still working (as we speak) to add things to the site to make it more user friendly, such as being able to edit your own comments, etc.
Hopefully the changes will helpful.
As far as I know (in too-long tenure at CLC 1986-2007) neither Robin Boisvert nor his wife Clara are part of the Mahaney or Layman families. He grew up here in Montgomery County, like CJ, and around the same time. He was a pastor at another church before coming to CLC.
The new format is so much easier to read–my eyes were watering with the white lettering on brown (and I hadn’t even read something sad yet).
I loved this list for church “shopping” from earlier in the comments.
My ideal church would be the following:
1. Cal-minian
2. Genuine encouragement and exercising of spiritual gifting with HEALTHY oversight.
3. EGALITARIAN leadership in churches and marriages. As I have breathed the fresh air, I am seeing more and more clearly that the “Biblical Manhood and Womanhood” patriarchal focus is not just uncomfortable, but downright sinful, that it is far more about fear and control than it is about order.
4. Strong mercy ministries and focus on being caretakers of our earth
5. Ditch the pulpit driven ministry only. EVERYONE has something to share. Oversight by elders NOT pastor(s)
6. Freedom to move around and work with other churches and ministries and not be told you’re in rebellion.
7. Lastly, accountability to the congregation of the direction the church is heading
8. Freedom to be who you are in Jesus–bubbly or shy, loud or quiet, creative or orderly, book-loving or sports-loving, Democrat or Republican or neither, public schools or home school. Given what God shows us in His glorious creation, He LOVES variety and color and the sometimes messy wonder of it all.
Acme,
I especially like number 8.
I am going to publish some emails that were sent to me from my pastors in the last couple of months (without names of course) please pray for me because the time has come for me to break all ties with my former church and that means the two families I have known for 5 years even before the SGM church (which both families left our old church to come to the SGM church because of my influence - ugh how I wish I could change that now!) ANyway, I posted the email from the pastor’s wife.
at some point, will someone please tell me how to handle this break from bondage in terms of spiritual warfare? I say this because it clearly is spirits we are dealing with – the fact as Gracie said, that 20 years and you have the SAME behavior and sins going on across the country to me, indicates not only a SGM problem but beyond that a spiritual problem. THe spirits at work are the SAME SPIRITS. Legalism, pride, religion, gossip, slander, etc. So is there something I must do, in terms of renouncing those spirits in Jesus name, etc that would help? I’m not very “charismatic” being raise Southern Baptist, but I keep getting this nagging feeling that more should be done both verbally and physcially by me to illustrate the “break” more. I’m still tied to it in some ways..and having a hard time getting free.
thanks Sue, I look forward to contacting you offline
and the battle cry goes out again Jim: FREEDOM!!!!!!!
Forgive a newbe, but I’m not sure what the heck a cal-minian is, but the rest of the wish list looks just fine to me.
I was dismembered (sounds macabre, huh?) from a (at the time,) PDI church in the mid ’90′s. The pattern of spiritual abuse is similar to other stories that have already been told on this blog.
We are the infamous family that was kicked out of the church because we had serious concerns about the parenting teaching that was being brought into the church.
DB,
So nice to hear from you! I know those horrible feelings of remorse at having been a stern and graceless parent. When we left PDI in 1997, my oldest was around 13. Thank God we didn’t go through the youth group years at SGM. After we left, my older chidren shared their feelings about the church, especially the childrens’ ministry, and how they were so glad they didn’t have to go anymore. For a while, I could not function as a parent. I did not discipline (though my kids had boundaries). I didn’t know what was right. Eventually, I found the balance in parenthood. The Lord received my children as I trustingly handed them over to His care. My husband and I learned to parent by the grace of God. Today, three of them are in college, each having a firm faith in God. The other two are well on their way. We all want our children to have real faith, a true love of Jesus, not just religion of the mind. We don’t just want them to obey our rules, but to think for themselves, and to seek God for the choices they face every day. Our kids need their freedom in Christ just as much as we do. Eventually, we should be their guides, their friends. This doesn’t happen if we control and rule over them harshly into adulthood and beyond.
Also, I have such a deep sadness today for all the children who grow up under the strict laws of relgion, having never known the true grace of God. Sooner or later, will they finally give up? Will anybody be there for them? God be with them!
Canary,
Some of our children must be of similar ages. I have one who just graduated from medical school and three in college. I have one in high school, one in middle school, and one in elementary school.
The older ones that suffered in CF will not go to church although they have a personal relationship with the Lord. The younger ones who were either not born at that time or too young are much freer. They go to church and have a commitment to things spiritual. They are a little bit suspicious because of our family background.
I also had a lot of doubts about my parenting because I was told my parenting wasn’t of God (like if it isn’t of God, who is it of? Major implication there!) Anyway, I started being exposed to a more diverse group of Christians and discovered that a lot of them were very relaxed about their parenting. This gave me a little bit of faith that I wasn’t leading my kids over a cliff. I am now pretty secure in my parenting although I know I mess up some times. I also understand that just because things work well for one child doesn’t mean it will work well for another (even in my own family.) What I *do* know is love, grace, and compassion are good things.
I do not spank my children, haven’t for awhile now. I think the Bible is neutral about it, giving individuals the freedom to use discernment (and a lot of prayer!) for their own situation. I do establish and maintain boundaries. My younger children (with the major exception of Josh,) have not rebelled and it is really easy to have soulful conversations with them.
I, too, feel sadness for the little children who have grown up under the harsh taskmaster of legalilsm. I remember the crying at CF; I remember really little children being beaten because they were behaving like little children (things like not sitting still when you are 18 months old.) Parents were discouraged from reading secular (or scientifically based Christian,) parenting books so they didn’t have an understanding of normal developmental behavior. They would spank a 9mo baby for dropping the cheerios on the floor not knowing that it was important for the baby to discover the law of gravity.
Will they finally give up? This sends chills up and down my spine because giving up can become Failure to Thrive, giving up can become Learned Helplessness. Giving up may eventually lead to a little girl not responding to the red flags when the adult touches her inappropriately. Giving up is tragic.
Hi DB!
Welcome to The Refuge!!
I hope to “see” more of you here!
Carole
Acme!
How did I miss your post??? Is this your first time posting here at The Refuge? If so, WELCOME!! Good to see you here!
Carole
thanks! Nice to be seen — and heard–and welcomed.
Hey Canary,
I read your comment, “Also, I have such a deep sadness today for all the children who grow up under the strict laws of relgion, having never known the true grace of God. Sooner or later, will they finally give up? Will anybody be there for them? God be with them!”
This is one of my greatest concerns with SGM…the children. This is why I think God will deal harshly with SGM.
Thus far, I’ve watched SGM children rebel and turn from the faith, become sheltered little “SGM clones” too scared to ever venture out of the “SGM bubble”, and the very worst…to become hardened, graceless legalists. The level of dysfunction among them is unbelievable.
We must stay vigilant in our efforts to “get the word out” about SGM and PRAY, PRAY, PRAY!!!
I know that Jesus loves all the little children. He was very serious about the severity of the consequences of someone leading a little child astray. This makes me very sober. He also welcomed the children when others would shoo them away. My motto for today is: Let love be my guide, especially in parenting! I will welcome any child, teen, or young adult who needs to hear about Jesus’ love. That’s what Jesus would do, right? And if we are letting love be our guide with our children, I think there will be good results.
I agree with Canary.
Our only real job in this world is to be like Jesus, modeling His love to other people. That’s it.
Will my children see Jesus through my parenting? That simple question gets rid of a lot of legalistic baggage.
DB,
I think we must be kindred spirits, at least in terms of our parenting. Will my children see Jesus through my parenting? Oh Lord, I hope so. By your grace, God!
Yes, we might be kindred spirits.
I also want to enjoy my children especially now that they are grown up or at least on their way.
It’s nice to have an 20YO son *with* a nice girlfriend that’s away at college and *still* takes time to regularly text me to tell me how much he loves me.
DB,
That’s sweet. I love when I get a peck on the cheek by my 24 year old son, ’cause I know it’s from the heart. No matter how old our sons get, they will always be our baby boys!
And daughters, too. My oldest is one of my best friends. We go to school together, I kid you not. We’ll go to the coffeehouse and library to study together. We even saw Obama together when he visited our campus.
There does seem to be a difference between the boys and girls and I’m thankful I get to experience both.
Me, too. My two girls and I like to shop together. I am so thankful to have them in my life.
I started attending CLC right after college graduation in 1986–and stayed there, miserably trying to be godly enough to be accepted. I married a former TAGer who got the “men rule” part, but not the “servant leadership” or the “support your family” parts. So I went to work, had a baby and prayed that my husband would step up so we wouldn’t starve and began church counseling. He didn’t step up, so after a year of cobbling together very part-time work with no benefits, I began teaching half-time (with full benefits–Thank you Lord for unions!)
The church went through Biblical Counseling and all that focus on my sinfulness and the three trees and replacing bad fruit with good fruit scared me. My child didn’t quite fit the mold–now I know that he has both LD and ED issues, but then I thought it was just me. I hated the Ferberizing. I hated the moralizing about how harmful watching Arthur on PBS was. I didn’t want to spank a toddler–and hated to hear about moms who had spanked their kid 10 times that morning only to discover he had an ear infection. My husband left marks on our toddler–that my mom photographed. I should have left then.
My boy started at CLS in kindergarden, but he learned differently and slowly and melted down when the principal tried to spank him. So we withdrew him and put him in public schools where his individual needs would be addressed better. Our care group was disbanded–and we drifted for a season.
We had another baby. Our new care group decorated the door and brought food. The CG leader and the pastor counseled my husband again about providing for the family. We talked about the “anger” issues at home. The answer was more prayer, more submission on my part, more church counseling. I started working fulltime, so we might find some minimal financial security (a small townhouse).
My beautiful 8 year old grew so despairing that he talked about drowning himself in the bathtub–our first trip to the ER soon followed, and meds, and a therapist. She wondered why he was so angry. His father tried to discipline him by casting out demons, by pinning him to the floor, by punching holes in the wall/door and more. He regularly told me that I should be grateful that he still wanted me, that we didn’t deserve nice things or kindness, that the LORD had told him to pursue this opportunity and someday it will all pay off, and on and on. He refused to pray with me because I didn’t have a prayer language. My despair grew–I had no girlfriends at church (in part because I was employed not home, my kid was in public school not at CLS or homeschooled, and there just isn’t enough time to seek out those who aren’t in the carpool lane with you, especially those who are bruised reeds), my home life was so NOT CLC, and my extended family just wanted me out of there.
I did not sign the CLC covenant (membership agreement)–it worried me, smacking of The Scarlet Letter and The Crucible. I saw such brokenness in folks I knew who had left the church, including the pastor who conducted our wedding and got caught up in the whole Larry Tomzak mess. I grew increasingly frustrated with the pastors’ attempts to address serious mental illness as sin, to see abuse as just another opportunity to practice peacemaking and to complete a three-trees model, to be handed Puritan texts (like the Doctrine of Repentance) as if they were the cure-all, and more.
However, when my son was hospitalized again in 2005 and I thought it very likely that Child Protective Services would be “visiting”, they did agree to let the Care Group help me get my husband out of the house. Periodically we would meet together with the pastors to continue counsellng–and he grew increasingly hostile with them until he was disfellowshipped in 2007. He still attends CLC regularly.
In October, I attended my last Sunday morning service at CLC when the ladies on stage were singing and dancing about submission–and have not been back since. I’ve done some church shopping–and am attending lovely Episcopal church that is radically welcoming, non-hierarchical, with both male and female ministers. My son enjoys the Sunday evening service which gets it all done in 45 minutes–after years of messages alone that lasted that long (even in the youth meetings). My daughter alternates–a week with Dad and a week with Mom.
When I read about the Castillo children whose crazy father drowned them all a few months ago–and what that mom went through–and saw that she had only sought a “limited divorce” (basically a legal separation) I wondered if her pastors had told her that divorce was forbidden (except in cases of adultery)–as the CLC pastors had told me and other wives in abusive marriages. And I wept. Why? Why? Why? Why?
“And yet, I feel confident in this, I will see the goodness of the LORD in the land of the living.”
God has been so faithful to keep me close to Himself, to speak to me in the wilderness. Some friends have stuck by us–and some have not. I am so happy to be out of there–and am sickened by how long I drank the kool-aid, knowing it to be poisonous but looking at all the happy faces, hearing all the excitement, hoping that someday I too would have that life that looked so sweet.
Acme,
Thanks for sharing your story. I love the verse you quoted from Psalm 27. I have held on to that one many times myself. The translation I read says, “What, what would have become of me had I not believed I would see the goodness of the Lord in the land of the living.
Dear Acme,
Reading your story literally left me with no words to say… My heart just twisted in my chest as I read, feeling just a VERY small portion, to be sure, of the frustration and heartache you and your son endured. Praise God!! for His faithfulness, not only to set you and your children free from the “SGM Clone Machine”, but to keep you close to Himself.
It surprises me somewhat that your son would even want to go to another church after his experience at CLC… another of God’s mighty “miracles”!
This statement: “In October, I attended my last Sunday morning service at CLC when the ladies on stage were singing and dancing about submission–and have not been back since.” I can just imagine the thoughts running through your mind!… it’s a wonder you didn’t throw up right then and there, after all you had been through!
Thanks, Acme, for sharing your story here… Yours is a classic example of why reform is needed in SGM and it’s churches!
Acme,
Thank you very much for posting here. I have a lot to say in response, but it’s mostly knee-jerk stuff, so I’ll wait a while.
All I can say right now is “whoa!”, and thank you!
Same here (wrt the knee jerk reactions.)
I only want to be here to encourage others. All I can say is your story is quite familiar.
And you will heal with God’s grace.
Acme,
Your story is truly, truly heartbreaking. Has this all been recent (did you leave in Oct. 2007)? Jim put out a list of “when not to counsel others” that is very appropriate for your story. Some of the SGM leaders don’t have a clue! One day, I wonder if all this will come out by “60 Minutes”, or some other news show, because God will let the world judge what the church would not. I think that would be detrimental to us all, and our religious freedom. However, wife and child abuse should not be allowed by God’s church. If the church won’t discipline itself, the world will do it for us.
God bless you, Acme. The Lord is truly very good. He got you away from your husband and placed you somewhere safe. Draw near to Him.
We are all here for you!
I think it is time I tell my story. I will do so in a few hitches, so as not to take up your entire day! First let me preface it by saying, I have no lingering animosity toward the players in my little drama. It has been many, many years and I am well. If I ran into them on the street, it would not be hard to warmly greet them. This is a testimony, not to my goodness or theirs, but to the faithfulness of the Lord and the passage of time.
I am here and posting my story to document my own experiences with PDI and confirm to others who are currently struggling with some of the same issues, now nearly 20 years later, that they are not alone.
When my husband and I encountered PDI, we were a young couple with an infant daughter. We began attending an small, independent church in the mid 80’s that had an emphasis on family, worship and grace. It was exactly what we were looking for. My husband became part of the worship team and we threw ourselves into the church community. Shortly afterwards, it was announced that our church would be joining the PDI family of churches. One of the apostles came for an extended period to set the church in order, teaching PDI tenets and bringing everything up to PDI standard. The tone of the church was forever changed. Home group leaders were selected and my husband was asked to be one. As I recall, my husband was not all that enthusiastic about home group leadership. He was working, raising a family and already serving on the worship team which required set up and tear down each week, as our building was rented. Our home was too small to host a group, so we were asked to lead a group hosted by another family. It all seemed a bit overwhelming at the time, but as it turned out, he was convinced by the leadership that this was where God wanted him to serve, despite his reservations.
Our year as home group leaders was one of the worst of our lives, not because of the folks in our group or our experiences with them, but because of trials we faced. On the contrary, these dear friends helped us through a personal tragedy (a mid-term miscarriage, where I went for a routine sonogram and there was no heartbeat) and an illness (I had a horrible case of chicken pox). They blessed us in so many ways during those difficult days. Our hearts were knit to them in a way that we had never experienced before in a church setting. Then, when our second child arrived, they rejoiced and celebrated with us with great enthusiasm. We were experiencing the “shared life” (which was a title of one of the Foundation Series classes back then).
However, there were problems by this point as well. It fair to say my husband never really connected with the pastor he was “under.” He got in trouble for not following directions regarding the way home groups were to be conducted, which if I remember correctly meant talking about the pastor’s Sunday sermon rather than an unrelated Bible study or discussion. He got in trouble for not correcting a member of our group who had a different perspective on an issue. The “how to give and receive correction” sheets were distributed, taught and practiced without grace in some instances (IMO). The “woman” issue started to emerge, and the parenting errors like forcing toddlers to greet began as well. The pyramid hierarchy took shape, with the pastor investing in a few men (home group leaders, mostly) and the home group leaders then investing in men “under” them.
At the end of the year commitment to home group, we resigned. One of our closest friends stepped in to take our place. My husband went back to school to finish his degree, all the while still serving on the worship team and heading the set up/tear down team. The pastor was not pleased with him for this decision, but we were trying to follow God.
To be continued …
Continuing our story…
After my husband finished school (he didn’t have long to go), we re-presented ourselves to the pastor to see where he wanted us to serve. By this time, we had been indoctrinated with the pastoral authority mantra – the pastor is gifted and anointed to know where and how you are to serve in the local Body. We were somewhat skeptical, but decided to give it a shot again. I remember thinking, if this authority stuff is right, then the pastor will know God’s will for us and it will be confirmed in our hearts. Again, keep in mind, my husband was STILL serving on the worship team, leading set up/tear down and somewhere along the line, even taught one of the Foundation Series classes for new members. I would have liked nothing better than to hear the pastor say, you’ve got young children at home, you’re already serving weekly in the church, that’s enough for now. He did not. He wanted us to start a new home group. This time it was WAY across town in another family’s home. The fact that we had small children, limited finances, work schedule conflicts, etc. did not matter. More importantly, the fact that we had NO PEACE did not matter. After prayer, my husband called the pastor and declined the “offer.” This went very, very badly. The pastor was demanding and rude. My husband was deemed “a problem” and “independent” because he wouldn’t do what the pastor told him to do.
We were shocked and confused. (Jim has posted the Foundations tenets which were in place during our time at PDI. I am so grateful for that, for it helps me to remember WHY we were so confused. ) After a time (a couple of days, maybe?) my husband called the pastor back to confront him, like we were taught on the correction sheets. Believe me, we had been required to correct folks for sin that was not nearly as obvious as this pastor’s display. My husband’s sincere observation was – pastor, this feels more like a dictatorship than a church – maybe there is a spirit of control operating here. He wasn’t making demands or bringing division. The communication was private and, although those are strong words, his attitude was more along the lines of – hey, maybe we should ask the Lord about this. Even so, you can imagine, it didn’t go over very well.
That was the beginning of the end for us. The pastor set up a meeting with my husband and several other men. I was not specifically invited, but went anyway. I didn’t think it was a big deal, but my presence was not appreciated. The reason for the meeting was so my husband could explain his remarks about control issues and talk about the pastor’s bad reaction. But that turned out to be a not-so-funny joke. For several hours, my husband faced a barrage of accusations and personal attacks. The pastor sat there, like a victim, while his henchmen, one of whom was a dear friend of my husband’s, jumped on the bandwagon. After awhile, I spoke up, saying – aren’t we here to look at the pastor’s sin? Then they turned their focus on me, which my husband put an end to immediately. The meeting was over.
We did not recant. (Nor did we speak to anyone else about it.) Because we wouldn’t recant, we were “counseled” to go elsewhere to church, somewhere we could trust the pastors to lead us. When asked if we had a choice in the matter, we were told, “no.” The apostle was in agreement and there were even signs and wonders confirming we had to go. We asked what Scripture their actions were based on, but never got an answer. A person was sent to our house to remove my husband’s worship song book, like a soldier being stripped of his rank. At least some of our friends were told that we had a Jezebel spirit and we were compared somehow to Ananias and Saphira. Then the shunning began. With a few notable exceptions, our “shared life” was gone. Some people actually seemed frightened of us. We were devastated.
The YEARS that followed were lonely and dark. In fact, as I look back, it was the aloneness that hurt the worst. Like many in PDI, we had few relationships outside of the church and the overnight change from “one big family” to “nothing” was stark. We tried to defend ourselves. That did not go well, as everyone was so afraid of being accused of gossip or slander. Daily, we faced the accusation from the enemy of our souls that these great PDI men, whom we had such respect for, were sitting on one side of the table, with God, while we were on the other side, opposing them and Him. So fierce and persistent was the enemy with these lies that our family nearly fell apart.
Awhile later (months, maybe as long as a year), we received a letter from the pastor. He apologized for the “mutual escalation” in our situation. Not too thrilled with the “mutual” part, but his letter was cordial enough. We were grateful for what we got.
More to come (sorry, it’s long)…
And now comes my favorite part of the story. God moved in our lives! He sent His Spirit to heal and restore those locust-filled years. Along the way, He used some dear saints to speak His Truth and pray His Heart for us and in time, we were healed.
We had gained understanding of PDI’s errors, but we also needed to know our own. The Lord was faithful to reveal and convict us of the sins which had allowed us to become ensnared in the first place. How could we EVER allow any man to stand between us and the Lord, who paid so dear a price to provide a new covenant? Why did we care so much about pleasing those men and fitting into the mold? How could we have gone against God’s Word and our own consciences in some of the graceless proceedings there? We had to come to grips with the fact that WE had wounded folks by towing the PDI line. That WE had given permission for a man to step between us and Jesus, our True Mediator. That WE had allowed pride and then fear to be our motivator instead of God’s Love. It was gut-wrenching and humbling, but so freeing!
I’m grateful to God that He walked us through. I have such joy now in knowing that NEVER again will I hitch up that yoke of slavery. It is for freedom that Christ has set me free! We are free! We are healed! There is hope and a future for those who have been wounded and left in the wake of PDI authoritarianism. God has not given up on you, even if PDI has. You are not alone!
It is my prayer that God will redeem that which the enemy meant for evil and turn it for His Glory. If sharing my story can in any way assist in that goal, I’m thrilled.
Gracie!!!!
Again, you have stirred my heart! You continue to encourage me, and inspire me… and bring much, much hope to many who have walked in your shoes.
Thank you for sharing your story here… and for your openness and your willingness to expose yourself and your journey.
You already know this, but I’ll say it again… you are one of my heroes!
Gracie,
Thank you so much for telling your story. {{{{{{{{{{hugs}}}}}}}}}}
Gracie,
Oh my goodness! Thank you so much for sharing your story. It’s quite a story! There are so many things you shared that I can completely relate to. I understand how hard it is after you leave SGM as you said,
“The YEARS that followed were lonely and dark. In fact, as I look back, it was the aloneness that hurt the worst. Like many in PDI, we had few relationships outside of the church and the overnight change from “one big family” to “nothing” was stark.
This is how I’ve been struggling lately…constantly praying God would show me once and for all that my husband and I made the right decision in leaving. He did, and it was through this website. I had those lingering, nagging doubts about our decision.. I was really worried we were making a mistake…. that we were “in sin and rebellion” as some had said to us. God CLEARLY showed us that He led us out for our protection. We had been through enough.
I shared my story with a local pastor when I first left the church…. leaving out specifics, I just had to talk to someone about the things I saw that bothered me so much… the blatant sin. After listening to me pour my heart out for a long time, he simply said, “You need to repent.”
I was dumbfounded! Didn’t he hear what I just said? Didn’t he understand that there was a major problem with the pastors and the church? He continued, “You need to repent of allowing others to be God in your life.”
Whoa. This had NEVER crossed my mind. For the first time since I had arrived for my counsleing session, I was speechless. God clearly showed me what had been going on… what I had been blind to. I was truly thankful to be OUT of there and able to focus more fully on Christ, despite how lonely life seemed on the outside. Looking back, I can see how my walk with the Lord diminished over time since starting to attend a PDI/SGM church almost 10 years ago. The focus became the church. The church was God. The church was everything.
My heart was truly broken and my spirit wounded from the whole experience. It is hard to recover from spiritual abuse. Maybe one day I will share my story as well.
Reading your story just made my day. You are so sweet and such a strong woman of God =) Thank You.
Summer,
“You need to repent of allowing others to be God in your life.”
YES! If you email me that guy’s address, I’ll send him a box of his favorite…whatever.
Jim,
haha.. I should probably do the same! =)
He definitely made a wise observation.
Gracie, You said:
“We had gained understanding of PDI’s errors, but we also needed to know our own. The Lord was faithful to reveal and convict us of the sins which had allowed us to become ensnared in the first place. How could we EVER allow any man to stand between us and the Lord, who paid so dear a price to provide a new covenant? Why did we care so much about pleasing those men and fitting into the mold? How could we have gone against God’s Word and our own consciences in some of the graceless proceedings there? We had to come to grips with the fact that WE had wounded folks by towing the PDI line. That WE had given permission for a man to step between us and Jesus, our True Mediator. That WE had allowed pride and then fear to be our motivator instead of God’s Love. It was gut-wrenching and humbling, but so freeing!”
As I read your story, my heart felt like it was bleeding. This is so similar to what we experienced. God is so faithful to have taken you and your family out of slavery, into freedom. Like you, I had to look at WHY I would allow someone to stand between me and my true Mediator, Christ. SGM was to blame for teaching authoritarianism, but I was to blame for letting them take the place of my God. I think that, when we realize this about ourselves, it goes a long way towards giving us healing and forgiveness. God’s peace to you, Gracie, my friend!
Gracie, your story blessed me beyond words!
You’re one of my heroes, as well!
It’s the innocent, sweet little couples, as you and your husband once were, just looking for a church family where they can serve and share their life, clueless about the spiritual abuse, that motivate me to stay vigilant in getting the word out about SGM.
If I can help spare just one couple some of the pain and heartache, then my efforts are all worth it.
Thank you for sharing, Gracie. God has done a mighty work in you through all this!
Thank you all for your kind remarks and hugs!
Gracie,
Something that really struck me about your experience with SGM (or PDI back then) was how long ago this took place! Even back then these practices were being used in SGM! They seem to have fine tuned them a bit, but these practices are still alive and well.
Kinda scary, huh?!?!
Exactly. Some might think that PDI/SGM took this turn into authoritarianism when they turned more toward Reformed doctrines, or maybe more accurately, Puritan type doctrines. Not so. It was in place long before.
I remember that it wasn’t always this way. Things were done, but not stated plainly. Now, the gloves are off, and SGM states very clearly that the pastors mediate between man and God. If we’d be told this years ago, instead of just sensing a vague unease about their double mindedness, we would have left then! Instead, we were slowly indoctrinated, not by words, but by actions over time. THAT is scary!
I am new to this site. I left SGM 13 years ago after being involved deeply for 14 years (’81-’95). I left under good terms, but am still troubled by what I experienced. I am wondering how many people noticed or experienced the following treatment:
1. Demand for complete devotion and obedience
2. Complete conformity in everything from doctrine to dress
3. Any views contrary to those of leadership are wrong (not to mention that those views change)
4. If you disagree with correction you are prideful an unteachable
5. Summary dismissal or reassignment of leadership responsibilities for any reason with out discussion
6. Gathering information on people to build a case against them
7. Lying
8. Leadership reserves the right to tell someone what their “gift” is. This can be used to accomplish # 5 if no damning evidence is found. Note that your gift definition can be changed at any time to suit the goals of leadership.
9. “Passive excommunication” Those that do not agree with leadership or simply want to do something different (than the current ministry model) are not chosen for leadership and are encouraged to leave SGM.
10. Be quiet. You cannot discuss any opinion, idea, project, or issue not approved by SGM leadership. Members often support the hush policy.
11. Pride. Other churches are not as good as we are. Para-church organizations are bad. Leaders are elevated to an unhealthy position.
12, Curses. You won’t do well if you leave. If you do not submit (to extra-biblical rules), you are out of God’s will and will face consequences.
Pain
Finally, can any one help me understand why after so long, the experience at SGM hurts so badly. I have continued to attend church but have never regained my confidence.
Thanks
Greg,
Welcome and thanks for posting!
I can say that I personally experienced all of the above, except #12.
Greg,
I can’t attempt to address your pain in a public forum. Without further data, I would probably just tell you things that you’ve heard before.
If you ever want to talk, you can send me your number to sgmrefugeATgmail.com
Grace,
Jim
Greg,
Glad you posted! It would be good for you to talk with Jim. He and his wife, Carole, have great compassion for those who have suffered under SGM. Also, I have known others who have benefitted greatly by talking with a professional Christian counselor. If you’re still suffering after all these years, it’s time to get a break through. I understand the loss of confidence. I struggled with feeling invisible to people. I was not important. I was disposable. I know now that God does not think that way. It took years for me to understand His mind, and His love for me. You are important to the Lord. Never think otherwise!
Greg,
You are still hurting because you were abused. Spiritual abuse is incredibly painful and confusing, and I don’t think it’s something you easily or quickly heal from.
I’ve been dealing with the pain for a few years now as well, and I was involved with SGM for almost 10 years.
I experienced all the points you mentioned above (yikes). #12 was more of a family experience as they were the ones doing the “cursing”. It wasn’t an actual “curse”, but I was told I was in sin and rebellion over and over again… out of God’s will….deceived….blinded by my sin, and so on and so forth…. Yeah, that made life real peachy.
Yes, and counseling is wonderful! I’m glad you said that, Canary! I love my counselor! I’ve had some major breakthroughs as a result of our conversations… He is truly a God-send =)
Welcome Greg.
I’m cut and pasting your list.
1. Demand for complete devotion and obedience
Yes. I couldn’t even criticize Sheree Philip’s book in small group.
2. Complete conformity in everything from doctrine to dress
Yes. I got into trouble for the way I breastfed my children.
3. Any views contrary to those of leadership are wrong (not to mention that those views change)
Ezzo parenting is doctrine (or was,) responsive parenting; “Some would say you’re in sin” (direct quote.)
4. If you disagree with correction you are prideful an unteachable
Exact accusation because I wouldn’t agree to not discuss my parenting philosophies with others in the church.
5. Summary dismissal or reassignment of leadership responsibilities for any reason with out discussion
Well, the discussion was one sided it was a meeting to tell us to leave.
6. Gathering information on people to build a case against them
We got to hear the children of care group leaders’ children report on another couple in our care group. I was shocked.
7. Lying
Famously
8. Leadership reserves the right to tell someone what their “gift” is. This can be used to accomplish # 5 if no damning evidence is found. Note that your gift definition can be changed at any time to suit the goals of leadership.
Or to basically tell you that you don’t have any gifts. (Not directly said but implied and dh and I were told that we would *never* be considered for leadership roles.
9. “Passive excommunication” Those that do not agree with leadership or simply want to do something different (than the current ministry model) are not chosen for leadership and are encouraged to leave SGM.
We had our membership revoked but were chided for suggesting we were excommunicated, semantics and all.
10. Be quiet. You cannot discuss any opinion, idea, project, or issue not approved by SGM leadership. Members often support the hush policy.
Famously
11. Pride. Other churches are not as good as we are. Para-church organizations are bad. Leaders are elevated to an unhealthy position.
Yes. When our old church purchased land and began a building campaign, people’s sacrifices were mentioned. People were catagorized as “members,” and “leaders.” (Again allusions to Orwell’s Animal Farm.)
12, Curses. You won’t do well if you leave. If you do not submit (to extra-biblical rules), you are out of God’s will and will face consequences.
One parting comment from one of our ex pastors was that our marriage wouldn’t last ten years. How dare the cad say that about our marriage!
Wow! 10 our of 10. Dubious distinction, huh?
That’s wonderful, Summer! Our God is so gracious!
DB,
It is clear that, even from your experience, SGM desires uniformity instead of unity, conformity instead of conscience. Anybody who signs a membership contract with an SGM church (I still can’t believe that one!) is signing away their freedom in Christ.
Canary,
I was honestly hoping my experience was unique but the more I get to hear other people’s stories, this time Greg’s, the more I realize my story is part of a larger pattern.
Hi Greg and welcome!
Thanks for sharing. I’m sorry to say that I’m another who has experienced most if not all of your list. We were a part from about 1987-1990 before we were excommunicated or, how did you say it, DB? Had our membership revoked? Didn’t last too long did we! And yet the process of healing took longer than our entire time in PDI!
We’ll be praying for you and are so glad you are here!
Hi Greg,
Welcome!
Your list sounds all so familiar!
(btw: your church didn’t have a whole bunch of people leave shortly after you left, did it?)
Canary said:
“It is clear that, even from your experience, SGM desires uniformity instead of unity, conformity instead of conscience. Anybody who signs a membership contract with an SGM church (I still can’t believe that one!) is signing away their freedom in Christ. ”
Very well said Canary. So sad but true.
Thanks Steve240. Yes, it is very sad, and too unbelievable. I guess if you want the security of being like everybody else in the crowd, you don’t have to have much faith of your own. In essence, you get a “king” to rule over you.
about the leadership telling you what your gifting is – I remember one evening at care group my cgl (and Assoc Pastor) told me that I had the gift of mercy.
I laughed out loud in his face I thought it was so funny! Then I turned to my friend who I had known for years before we both came to the SGM church and said “Hey Mary, *** thinks I have the gift of mercy, what do you think?” To which she promptly started laughing too.
Needless to say the CGL was offended, and said that the Body “confirms” the gifts of one another. Yet I was thinking to myself – you only know what you see me do, you don’t know my heart. And since I had been serving only to impress them (I was an idolator at the time) he was really off base! It was then and there I realized they didn’t know me at all – they knew what I let them know. And I could play the hypocrite all day long. They had quenched the Spirit so much they had no discernment either!
I also found it ironic that a church that wasn’t even showing the FRUIT of the Spirit was thinking they were going to be able to identify the GIFTS of the Spirit..yeah, right.
Concerned,
You crack me up!
Canary said:
“Thanks Steve240. Yes, it is very sad, and too unbelievable. I guess if you want the security of being like everybody else in the crowd, you don’t have to have much faith of your own. In essence, you get a “king” to rule over you.”
Well as at least one person pointed out on the other blog, a lot of the people in SGM that stay seem to have a “catholic mentality” in that they are content with decisions and direction coming down from above and it not being questioned. As I understand it, in the Catholic Church, the regular members and even those above them rarely if ever question what the Pope says.
Thus the people in SGM are content and accept whatever the leadership says. “The leaders have spoken.”
Steve240,
That’s sure what it seems like, doesn’t it?
The style of leadership you all are refering to is called the Shepherding Movement. Tomacyz was big on that and the four square churches which he went on to promote use that style. It is like a pryamid. You submit yourself to the next in line and so on. Everyone under one umbrella. Everyone under some authority.
As far as Dan, I have seen the things he discussed with people we know and and people we witness too. Someone gets on a soapbox and beats the homosexuality thing to death. THEY WILL NEVER INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN RIGHT??? Wrongo! Actually liars and several other types of sins were listed there too. Unless the shed blood of Christ is applied as a sacrifice for our sins none of us inherit the kingdom of God. They forget to say that. They also forget to tell you that counted among the New Testament Christians were people of that former persuasion. No bones about it homosexuality is sin. It is against the created order God ordained. By the way so am I when I do half the sins I do. I wish I could escape sin too. Where ever I go it follows me.
I don’t think there can be any reconcilation with the people at that church. Only God can heal your hurt. No sin except not trusting in his son to save you is unforgivable. God loves you but hates your sin as he does mine also. I don’t believe they will ever give you the closure you need. If it were me and you really want to go to stuff at their church like a baptism I would go with someone you know. Be kind, friendly, but careful. Don’t let them in. Don’t ask permission. Maybe they won’t even notice. They will most definetly not want to make a scene. If they do others will see and perhaps their atitudes will change and they will really try to help others in the future. We need Christ people not Pharisees.
Let God in though. You may struggle with that sin always, who knows? Christ paid the price for your sins on the cross and mine also. That does not mean he wants us to go on sinning. We need to put our trust in what he did on the cross to save us. We need to repent from sin. We need to daily lean on God to help us overcome our sin. We need to pick ourselves up when we sin and try again with his help. He has the strength we need to walk this life. He sees us through Christ once we are saved. He sees the righteousness of Christ on us when we are saved because that is what Christ gave us. Our continuing sin which we all do damages our witness to the world. It can reap lasting effects in our lives because it violates God’s laws. When we do that it is a reap what we sow kind of thing. The reaping could be disease, destruction, who knows? God wants to spare us that so he gives the Holy Spirit and his word to help us fight the good fight. Because Christ overcame the devil, death, & world he helps us to do the same. We will never be perfect in this life. The Bible says if we say we are then we are a liar. There is no sin that God cannot save us from. When you are reading the story of the 99 sheep in the Bible he leaves all the others safely in their pen and goes looking for the one and then when he finds it he lifts it gently to his shoulders and carries it home truimphantly. Heaven rejoices when one sinner is found and gets saved. Dan you are that one sheep. If it were only you out there. Jesus would have come looking just for you. When he finds you and you find him (trust him) all heaven rejoices… He loves you not your sin… God loved us enough to send Christ to die for us while we were yet sinners…. I am praying for you.
I wish they had really been able to care enough to help you. I may not agree with that sin. Iam sure you don’t with my sins either but I can still care. I am praying for you. Please pray for me also.
Annie
*If any church is a real church anyone should be able to go. I go to church with people living together, liars, gossipers, and other sinners. We all do. They can preach that the sin is wrong and exclude those the bible excludes from leadership and membership but everyone should be able to attend services. We were sinners before we were saved and we are still sinners after. The difference is that Christ covers our sin with his sacrifice and gives us the Holy Spirit to help us to fight it.
God bless you Dan and let your sin be your sin… it does not define you… homosexuality is the sin you do… not who you are… just like I am not my sins they are something I do…. it is not the sin of caring for another that God condemns in your particular sin but instead that it is against the way he made us and if everyone did that the human race would become extinct… we were made in his image and that goes against the image he made us to be…. that being said I can’t wait to get to heaven where all those kinds of things are removed temptation wise.. what a freedom that will be… I am praying for you….
Annie
Quote from Gracie, “how did you say it, DB? Had our membership revoked?”
Dismembered is what I call it.
Hi Annie,
Welcome to The Refuge!
I don’t necessarily want to speak for Dan (Dan… please forgive me if I am stepping on your toes here…), but I must respond to your comment. I’m not sure if you read his whole story or not, but it seems as if you don’t have the full scope of what actually took place.
First, Dan was not living in sexual immorality, nor did he confess to leadership that he was. They assigned that sin to him, even though it was untrue. What he did confess to them was depression, and began damaging himself because he was struggling with his sexuality. His sin was in his thoughts, he never acted on them. (“Struggling” is a key word here… the connotation being “fighting with himself”… says a lot about his heart, and his convictions.)
This seems to be typical in SGM leadership… they hear one thing, jump to conclusions, and all of a sudden, you are accused of things you haven’t done, and if you don’t “confess” to their trumped up charges, and don’t submit to their legalistic rules and regulations, you are disfellowshipped. No matter how hard you try to defend yourself with the truth, they don’t want to hear it, they have already judged you and convicted you.
This is exactly what happened to Dan. He went to leadership with a sin issue (as we are taught to do in SGM) that he was struggling with, and even though he had never acted upon these thoughts, he was accused of doing exactly that. And when he didn’t confess to their accusations and didn’t follow along with their ultimatums, he was kicked out of their church. Not very kind or loving… or even helpful.
Unfortunately, these are the kinds of unbiblical, authoritarian practices that SGM and their churches engage in. It’s wrong and it damages people… it damages their lives, and their relationship with God.
Which is one of the reasons Jim and I have been called to do what we are doing here. And, although I certainly appreciate your concern for us (as you have stated in other comments on this blog), God is our strength and He has given us everything we need to accomplish this task that He has set before us. There is no need for you to be concerned about pain that SGM may try to inflict upon us, nor any gossip or slander or disappointment that may come our way. We’ve already experienced all of those things and have come out the other side stronger and closer to God than ever before.
And we have hope… we have hope in a mighty God Who loves us, Who changes men’s hearts, a God Who fills us with hope and faith that His will be done here on this earth and in this situation and this church movement.
Well said, Carole!
Wow, thanks. I never imagined that affirmation would be so quick and comprehensive. Unfortunately, my story is not one you would want others to be able to identify with. Now that I know I am not imagining these problems, here is my story.
I came to Christ and joined Gathering of Believers in College Park Maryland in 1981 at the tender age of 18. Coming out of an abusive background, I was really in need. I have to say from the first up to this day I have been well loved, cared for, and respected by my friends at what became Covenant Life Church. Overall it was a wonderful experience that grounded me in Christ. Many may be surprised know that in the beginning, GOB/CLC/SGM was doctrinally open and influenced by classic Christian writers such as C.S. Lewis, A.W. Tozer and other “mystics” that emphasized a strong devotional life and hearing God for yourself. There was also a strong emphasis on missions and social issues. Ironically, my embrace of these foundations would prove to be my undoing as the organization changed.
There was some evidence legalism and control early on. For example, you had to ask permission to date. Having plenty experience with controlling personalities, I attributed this to immaturity in specific people, and I generally ignored attempts to control me.
I served in a variety of lay leadership roles over the years and I personally knew most of the early leaders (Several of these men have had to leave SGM in order to fulfill their calling.) Overall my ministry experience was well rounded and quite positive. My problems began when I entered cell group leadership and developed an interest in missions.
I led a successful group which multiplied into two groups. At that time, my pastor met with me and told me that I had not only a gift of leadership but a “rare ability to develop leadership in others.” However, I found myself constantly butting heads with leadership over how to run a cell group. I was supposed to dress preppy (I’m a musician, and I’m leading singles in their 20s). I was supposed to go through whatever book was the “next greatest thing”. However, I was more interested in developing leadership in men. I noticed since we were always reading books, none of them had ever learned how to lead a bible study. So I wanted to teach hermeneutics, bible study, and facilitation. I had to fight for permission to do that. One of the books we were all supposed to read was heretical. I got into a major fight with my pastor over it. When I escalated the matter to senior leaders, they finally read the damn thing and agreed with me. The questionable chapters were now optional reading. However, I was rebuked for discussing the issue in a cell group meeting. About a year later, the author was exposed for immorality and the book was forever dropped from the CLC reading list.
Things came to a head when participation in my original group declined. At one meeting, I challenged the group to decide if they really wanted to meet. If so, great, if not, then I would recommend to the pastor that we disband and find other groups to attend. Admittedly, my approach to the problem could have been more graceful. Ironically, the group responded very positively. About a week later, I was called into his office on a Saturday morning and dismissed from leadership effective immediately. There was no process, prior discussion, or anything I could do. Man was I hurt. I had poured my heart and soul into cell group ministry. His observation was that I did not have a leadership gift and was not called to leadership. Such a gift would be evidenced by success (note the circular reasoning). I had no problem with stepping down; frankly, I was burnt out. However, I challenged both the basis and the process for my dismissal. I also refused to talk with him unless his senior leader was present.
That led to a painful series of meetings over nine months with him and his pastor. To their credit, they were willing to meet with me for however long it took to resolve the matter. My pastor tricked my friends into cooperating with an investigation of my faults. My character and motives were constantly challenged. Finally, I caught my pastor in a lie in front of his pastor. The senior leader asked me to leave for a moment, and when I returned, they apologized sincerely. (This may have been a historic event). I have to admit that this process was extremely difficult. It required a lot of strength, persistence, and all the tactical skill of a trial lawyer. Understandable, most SGM members don’t make it through the process, and just leave. I would not have but for the grace of God.
I then turned to my attention to the “not a leader” claim. I told the senior leader that I did not want to be branded. I had to recount my history with CLC, everything they had said about me in the past, and of course, the doctrinal problems with their ideas about gift identification. They finally agreed that I was eligible for future leadership positions. The whole thing boiled down to my pastor feeling that he was losing control of the group and felt he had to do something. The only remaining question was whether I would remain at CLC due to my interest in pioneer missions.
(Note: I never took on the shift to Calvinism which was taking place that time. I had observed others charge up hamburger hill and get shot down, and I was not interested in going there.)
That leads me to the coup de grace. I had started a missions prayer meeting with other folks that lasted several years and formed the basis of the CLC international ministry. This same pastor viewed the meeting as subversive and was always trying to find out what was going on and if he could shut it down. It was comical if not sad. Around the time that the church plant in Manila was shut down and Larry’s sister and brother in law were forced out. C.J. shut down the whole missions focus on the basis that PDI was not “called” to pioneer missions. That left those of us who were mission minded hanging with nothing to do. I love C.J., but I have to disagree with the whole series of events that led to Larry being phased out and the vision of PDI changing.
Over the next few years (early 90s), I met periodically with leaders about my interest in pioneer church planting. I did not aspire to be a pastor, but I really wanted to join a church planting team in a Muslim country. I had intentionally chosen a mission agency that was very similar to PDI in its views of apostolic ministry and church planning. This, of course, was out of the question. The reasoning was as follows:
1. All mission efforts other than church planning as practiced by PDI do not result in lasting fruit
2. Only pastors selected by the apostolic team can start new churches
3. You are not called to be a pastor
4. Therefore, you cannot plant a church
I was accused of being proud. One pastor claimed that I was only interested in missions for the “glory”. Anyone who has served in foreign missions knows how absurd that comment is. I was in a painful dilemma of having to chose between staying at my church, the only home I had ever known, and obeying God in regard to missions (Rom 15:20-21). In retrospect, I should never have been placed in that position.
Unable to leave CLC, I tried to do both. This proved to be difficult as they refused to give me a clear recommendation, and I was placed under restrictions. The pastoral recommendation sent to my mission agency was worded something like, “we confirm that Greg feels a call to missions”. My agency had some familiarity with PDI and agreed to let me proceed under that condition that I improve the sending relationship. My situation was made more difficult due to a variety or restrictions PDI placed on me. I was not allowed to address the congregation (most of whom I knew) or any cell groups, and I was not allowed to raise funds publicly. Obviously, I objected that they did not have the authority to tell me who I could and could not talk to. Finally, they conceded to allow me to talk about my mission with my friends. Having few relationships outside of CLC, I was forced to try to make this work.
By the grace of God, I managed to pay for all my own training over a two year period, form a support team, and raise funds for an exploratory trip. I received fantastic support from my friends in CLC, but opposition from leadership. Quite a few people in CLC with missions interest were watching to see what would happen with me.
I finally made it to the field. Before I left, I entrusted a description of my trip and a prayer letter with my pastor. Since I had to do everything through him, he promised to give copies to the pastoral team, all of whom I had know and worked with over the years. Some had interest in my plans. I deeply coveted their prayers and covering.
Conditions on the field were rough. All I will say is that it was a Muslim country in the middle of a civil war, and you can imagine the rest. Nevertheless, I felt that I was in the center of God’s will like never before. I returned to the U.S. three months later due to illness and the need to raise support. Despite all that happened on the field, my return home was absolutely devastating. Having adapted quickly to field conditions, reverse culture shock was unbelievable. No one understood what I was going through, though my friends helped as best as they could. I fell into a deep depression. One day, one of the pastors, a friend of mine, ran into me in church and said, “Hey Greg, I haven’t seen you for a while, where have you been?”
That was the final blow. No wonder I was struggling. My letter never made it past my pastor. I had been completely uncovered with virtually no prayer support. When I asked my pastor what happened, he said he forgot. I doubt that. I think it was intentional, the latest in a series of controlling actions. What really hurt we was that I had served these guys for 14 years, doing everything asked of me, making every effort maintain good relations, and in the end, when my life was on the line, they deserted me.
I was lost. After another year of not knowing what to do, my mission finally asked that I not return to the field until I found a suitable sending church. I asked God to end it for me. I can’t preach the gospel, I really don’t want to live.
Finally, a local pastor found out about my situation and sent me a tape to encourage me. I got up the courage to leave CLC. Why was that so hard? Why had I not done it years earlier?
I left CLC under good terms in ‘95. I was never shunned. Years later when a friend was planning to leave, C.J. told him, “If you want to know how to leave a church well, ask Greg; he did it right.” Unfortunately, I was not well. I went back to work and never went back to the field except for some short trips to various places. I still regret that. I’ve wandered from church to church and just gone through the motions of life. I fell into addictive sin, from which I am just recovering in the last two years. Through it all God has been kind and merciful and has carried me a blessed me with a family, for which I am very grateful. My wife probably saved my life although she is still hurt by my past behavior.
This brings me to last weekend and why I am writing. A close friend of many years asked me to join the board of directors of his mission. He is a successful African pastor and a former CLC member who I met during my early days there. On the plane headed to the annual board meeting, I sat next to another African pastor. He told me his story, how he had been betrayed by church leaders in the states, and how that almost destroyed his vision. A knife went through my heart and I cried.
I take full responsibility for my actions in recent years and the consequences, but it is clear that his deep sense of betrayal, failure, and remorse weighs heavily on me still, and I must be healed from that before I can continue with the original plan and design God has for my life.
Thank you for listening. I don’t seek to accuse anyone. I hope sharing my story will be part of the healing process and help others. No matter what you are going through at SGM, above all, maintain your integrity, because in the end, it may be the only thing you have left.
Wow Greg.
Thank you so very, very much for posting.
I need to let this sink in before commenting, but please know that I’m praying for you.
I’ll start right now.
Oh Greg. I am so so sorry. {{{{{{{{{}}}}}}}}}}} <— hugs to you & your family
Greg,
You, like us, have had your trust crushed by your experience. Some of us have struggled with trusting others again. Don’t let this stop you. It has to help that you know others have gone through similar experiences, some worse, some not. A professional Christian counselor can help you understand what happened and help you to heal, by God’s grace. Be sure the person is trustworthy, because you will be bearing all. But don’t be afraid to trust again. Though your experience was very tragic, the Lord will use it for good. He promises that.
As for your falling into an addiction, let me just say that we tend to turn to something, anything for comfort when our vision is killed. You were looking for comfort in places where God was not. I’m sure you have learned from that experience as well that nothing, no one can ever fill the spot in our hearts that was meant for the Living God. No guilt, my brother. You are forgiven!
Please stay in touch with us. We are here to help you through. Your heart for the lost is exactly what this world needs. PDI made it a practice (knowingly or not) to be rid of evangelists (Chai Ahn, Larry, others that were called to bring in the lost). I don’t know why. You are in a league with the best of them, Greg. When it is the right time, the Lord will stir up the embers of your vision, and build them into a great fire. There is a harvest of souls waiting to be reaped in these last days. You are a part of that! Jesus said, “Believe in God, believe also in Me.” Start there. Let the Lord heal and refresh you. Do not be afraid to trust again. My heart is lifting you to our Father, who is so wonderful! It’s going to be all right. Your sister in Christ, Canary
As far as the thing with Dan if I misspoke I am sorry. My hsband and I have two work acquaintances that have been burned by churches. They are both practicing homosexuals. They are interested in Christ but are afraid to go to any church because of being burned so badly. I would love to see them get saved and get healing and help. I would love to see them be added to a local church body where they could fellowship. I may not agree with that lifestyle but God does not agree with my sinfulness either. I wanted to come to some sort of support for Dan. I am so sorry for what he went through. No sin is unforgivable. Leadership was intrusted to protect us. I am sure Dan will have much trouble ever trusting anyone. This is not the first time I have seen that stuff. I mean stuff being not kept private. I pray for Dan his story touched and scared me.
In our case sadly we look at every pastor skeptically. We went to another church after leaving SGM and experienced some of the same stuff. It was a shock to realize it was everywhere.
For Greg … whew… your story has really made me think a lot… I am so sorry for what you went through. Thank you for sharing what must have been very painful…. I am praying for you…
Greg – praying for you too. Thank you for sharing. Stories of redemption (and yours is a story of redemption, and more ot come!) always make my heart sing!
Isn’t our Lord wonderfully good to us? The vision is Christ Himself..something SGM lost a long time ago. Keep your eyes on Jesus, brother. Preach the gospel! Fight the Good Fight and finish well!
Greg,
I am sorry. There is something here that I just can’t understand. I will NEVER understand. Aren’t pastors supposed to help each of us find out what God has deposited in our hearts and fan it to flame for the Kingdom? Wouldn’t that be a tremendous way to serve God’s people and the advancement of the Gospel of Jesus? Yet these men are so resistant to callings that are different from their PDI-approved vision. They want to fit each of us into THEIR mold and ministry - how do you fit into OUR vision for this local church – a very narrow view IMO. Involvement in parachurch organizations is discouraged and even looked upon suspiciously. As I said, I do not understand this! Wouldn’t a pastor be THRILLED to see his flock obeying the Lord and the Great Commission? Even if it didn’t have the PDI/SGM leadership in control of it?
I am sorry that you went to a Muslim nation without a prayer cover from your church family. That is beyond words. I know of one young person who always felt a calling to a specific foreign nation and was discouraged so frequently by SGM leadership, that she finally gave up. The very treasure the Lord had put in her heart, the compassion and desire to serve the poor and needy – squelched, not fanned to flame. WHY??
Also, I know of others that have been so demoralized by their experiences in PDI that they have fallen into sins that shocked everyone. But God has set them back on their feet and reconciled them to Himself. He has given them back their integrity. (If you get a chance, try to look up Pia’s story on the sgmsurvivors blog. She is very open about her failings and God’s restoration.)
I am so glad to hear that your desire to serve Him in missions is still in tact. We will be praying for healing, especially for the weight of betrayal, failure, and remorse you live with to be obliterated, and for fulfillment of the desires of your heart! Blessings to you!
Greg… Wow! Again, I am rendered speechless. One would think, after hearing story after story, that one would become anesthetized after a while. Not so! I will be praying for you, along with all of the others here… God has a purpose and a plan for you, my friend!
Annie… I’m so sorry you have experienced many of the same things at the hands of SGM that others have faced. I hope and pray that you and your husband are at a place in your walk with the Lord where He can heal your hearts and your hurts. I will be praying for you, dear Annie… and I covet your prayers for us, as well.
Greg, I’m so sorry about your experience. You are not alone!
You said, ” I must be healed from that before I can continue with the original plan and design God has for my life.” God is mighty and holy–he is never derailed–his plans for his people are never thwarted. He knows the plans he has for you, plans to prosper you, not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future. He is all there is, he is not waiting for you to do something to get yourself back on the train, not waiting for you to get yourself back together. You can’t!
Your healing is his calling for you today. Your pain echoes His suffering, your betrayal is a shadow of His betrayal. He is with you, and your weakness is an opportunity for his strength. I wonder even how your words on this posting will have an impact as the body considers, through your testimony, how we wound one another.
Take heart, my brother! Your Abba loves you, he draws you to himself with lovingkindness, he rejoices over you with singing, he will quiet you with his love.
ReformedTeacher,
So beautifully said!
Greg –
Pain
Finally, can any one help me understand why after so long, the experience at SGM hurts so badly. I have continued to attend church but have never regained my confidence.
Yes I can. SGM uses a brain washing technique called de-motivational management as part of their structure. It is intended to cause a mild depression and often leads to long term psychological harm. I wrote a post about it a while back. The good thing is if you realize what was done to you and start taking actions where you can effect outcomes it will go away.
CD,
I’m not going to have a long discussion about this online, but you can email me with a number or give me a call.
You are free to link to your site, which has a link to gay friendly churches, but I’ve removed the direct links to those churches in your last post.
To affirm what Scripture clearly calls sin, which is sex outside of marriage, which in Scripture is between a man and a woman, is outside of orthodoxy.
Please feel free to send me a note. sgmrefuge AT gmail.com
Thanks to all for your understanding, prayers, and sound advice. This has been very helpful.
Multiple Personality Disorder?
What I have always wondered about is how SGM churches, and CLC in particular, is how they can care for so many people well most of the time and at the same time can be so damaging to others. I can name at least 6 pastors who have always been kind and understanding and never attempted to demean or control me, while a few others have been so ruthless. I have friends at CLC who have been quite healthy and happy for many years. The relationships I formed in the 80s are still among my most loyal and trusted friends. At the same time, I have watched people be horrible wounded for no good reason. So, here are some ideas to ponder:
1. How is it that churches can be helpful and toxic at the same time?
2. Are some people more immune to control than others? Are they just not sensitive to it, or have they learned to “play the game?”
3. I have felt that SGM churches are for the well and not the sick. That is, if you are relatively strong and have your life in order, you are much less likely to attract negative attention than if you have problems or responding out of hurt.
4. Is it possible that the culture of SGM has gotten worse over the years? It may be that the relationships and internal respect that I built in the early 80s helped me whether the turbulent changes in the 90s.
5. Does SGM reward dominance? The “nice”pastors I have known over the years have either left or remained at the same position for many years, and I guess learned to be content with that. The really controlling ones seem to get promoted. The pattern I have seen in these men is obsequious devotion to their superiors and dominance of those below them.
6. Does SGM operate on the principle, “the nail that sticks up gets hammered down”? If so, how did this evolve? If is is true, then the rule for survival would be keep your head down or move on. Innovators need not join.
7. Since SGM was birthed in the DC area, have the spiritual strongholds of that area: pride, legalism, control, and hypocrisy affected the culture of the entire organization? I often felt that surviving in a leadership role at CLC was like working for the government.
8. Victims of success. SGM’s relative success has made them oblivious to correction. I know many senior leaders in the Body of Christ have tried over the years. Only a major upheaval would make them consider changing.
9. How can we respond to situations like this in a Christ like manner? For many years I prayed for CLC/SGM to change to no avail.
Comment? Observations?
Greg,
Wow, my only comment is that your comments are so accurate and insightful.
Greg has asked some profound questions and this is my feeble attempt to cut and paste and answer.
1. How is it that churches can be helpful and toxic at the same time?
I think a lot of this involves temperament. Very docile personalities or alphas that have been strategically placed in roles of authority tend to thrive.
2. Are some people more immune to control than others? Are they just not sensitive to it, or have they learned to “play the game?”
I think some can fly under the radar very well, others play the game. I can only imagine many others put on a Church Face and are entirely different people behind closed doors. Some people are docile and don’t mind being controlled. Others have grown up in legalistic and controlling environments and some of these people have likely given up and are victims of learned helplessness.
3. I have felt that SGM churches are for the well and not the sick. That is, if you are relatively strong and have your life in order, you are much less likely to attract negative attention than if you have problems or responding out of hurt.
I sensed a certain bias in favor of the perfect family, so to speak. A dad in either a successful profession or is a successful entrepreneur. The mother is cute and perky and submissive. They have three to six docile, well-behaved children. Having pre-existing opinions that don’t harmonize with SGM dogma isn’t good. Naive but pliant is good.
4. Is it possible that the culture of SGM has gotten worse over the years? It may be that the relationships and internal respect that I built in the early 80s helped me whether the turbulent changes in the 90s.
I thought I had formed strong close relationships in the 1980’s but I now believe I was some people’s, “project.” Things got much worse in the 1990’s. I can trace things going very badly to CJ’s Coup d’état in the early ‘90’s.
5. Does SGM reward dominance? The “nice”pastors I have known over the years have either left or remained at the same position for many years, and I guess learned to be content with that. The really controlling ones seem to get promoted. The pattern I have seen in these men is obsequious devotion to their superiors and dominance of those below them.
If you have a Y chromosome, have been hand-picked by other dominant figures and are (hopefully,) bald, dominance is rewarded. If, on the other hand, you are a low ranking male, a woman, or a child, dominance is tied to some indwelling sin. Heck, you can’t even be spirited without the powers-that-be interpreting that as evil spirited.
6. Does SGM operate on the principle, “the nail that sticks up gets hammered down”? If so, how did this evolve? If is is true, then the rule for survival would be keep your head down or move on. Innovators need not join.
Generally, if you are not the Alpha Male, keeping a low profile is a good thing. There are very few women that have memorable personalities. I’m not sure how it evolved. At least since some of the complementation teachings emerged. That people have noticed that the lesser pastors try to copy CJ’s speaking quirks is telling.
7. Since SGM was birthed in the DC area, have the spiritual strongholds of that area: pride, legalism, control, and hypocrisy affected the culture of the entire organization? I often felt that surviving in a leadership role at CLC was like working for the government.
That is a fascinating thought. You might also consider the era in which the church emerged as well. The SGM personality is very much in step with the stereotypes of the 1980’s.
8. Victims of success. SGM’s relative success has made them oblivious to correction. I know many senior leaders in the Body of Christ have tried over the years. Only a major upheaval would make them consider changing.
Their behavior is definitely being positively reinforced. Unless they start hemorrhaging members, they have no reason to change unless their hearts are softened by the Holy Spirit, but the Lord has given them free will and they must choose to be responsive. The trail of hurt Christians should be sufficient warning, but, oh well.
9. How can we respond to situations like this in a Christ like manner? For many years I prayed for CLC/SGM to change to no avail.
I think forums such as this has afforded us a voice for which I am thankful. These people are our brothers in Christ and we must treat them as such in spite of their callousness and the pain they have caused so many people. I believe prayer and purposing to have a Christ-like attitude combined with hope (albeit unjustified,) of reconciliation is a good start; at least for me.
I’m creating a page on “the rules”, as addressing what few rules we have here in a comment or two is not enough at this point.
CD and I disagree on this issue, and many will come here who disagree on a variety of issues.
My stance is this-this is a public forum, the public square if you will. Everyone is welcome, but since I’m renting the square, I’ll have some requests on it’s use.
The way this functions is, be nice to Carole, and if you have a view that is outside of what is considered orthodoxy, feel free to invite others to the part of the square that you rent (your blog) to discuss those issues.
Ok, so this friend of mine, Not me of course
He was actie in this church, the Pastor had told him he was called to preach, had said he was his apprentice. And this handsome and well gifted young man, who was very verile and quite well spoken, was humble to a tee, had a true gift to love the unlovable and could walk on water, he started going to the Assembly of God bible college. This fine young upstanding man, who was quite gifted and humble began to see that what he read in the Bible, and what he was being taught and told to teach could not line up without streching and skewing the words of the very God he had been called to teach.
This fine upstanding perfect in almost every way young man (not me) went to his Spiritual Father type person and told him this. It was amicably agreed that this fine young preacher should seek a place where he could teach what he saw in scripture as he could not teach that which he thought was false. The Pastor again agreed on his calling to teach the word of God, and sent him on his way. He then placed a phone call to every other Pastor in town and warned them of this wolf in sheeps clothing. And warned his congregation to see this young man as Anathema. The young man was crushed by this.
6 months later, the youngman was called to plant a church in his town, and he began work on said plant. Not knowing that the NAMB had a little thing in thier church planters guidelines that mentioned swallowing up little ministries he agreed to help another Plant while he worked on his calling. This plant tried to swallow him up, but the young church planter had been given a copy of the NAMB policies for planting and recognised what was happening.
1.6 years laterm the young reformed Charismatic pastor is planting his little church, and has two Calvary Chaple Pastors watching over and tending his plant, and is very happy.
God is good, people are not.
Thank you
Eric,
Did the young man love his ex pastor enough to confront him in his sin, or did he leave him to wallow in it?
He confronted him immediately, and was brushed off. Then again when he saw him a Lowes and again was brushed off. He then prayed for him and his congregation and began to focus on the ministry God had called him too and left the other situation in Gods hands being as none of his old congregants would even acknowledge him when they passed and he said hi in the Safeway aisle or wherever.
I hope for repentance, but praise the lord that the congregation has gone from 300 to 30. Vengence is mine sayeth the Lord. He is very protective of His sheep and is not happy when even one is trampled assunder. Which is a very sobering thought for a Pastor methinks.
God’s discipline is such a scary concept. If all the guy lost was his church, he got off light.
Fear (Awe) of the Lord is truly the beginning of wisdom
Hello Everyone- Here is our STORY- My wife and I (And 4-6 other families, including the former worship leader) left a SG Church less than a year ago, after seven years. We were a part of starting the church, were in leadership as Care Group Leaders, and served in other areas of service leadership. Our experience is similar to what I have been reading here and in other blogs. The leadership structure was sinfully authoritarian and controlling. We first noticed this when several families (friends) abruptly left years before we did. I was at that time stunned that anyone would leave what I considered to be the perfect church, so I reached out to these families to better understand what they were going through. The pastor was extremely irritated that I had the audacity to go and talk with these former members without notifying him. Other members asked me if I had gotten the pastor’s permission before I went and talked to them. At first I didn’t understand and just felt like, “What do you mean ‘permission’?” It turns out that the families all left in response to the control and abuse they experienced, though I didn’t understand what they were talking about at the time and I guess I blamed them. Our story began when my wife and I initiated a friendly meeting with our pastor/friend about what seemed to us to be a subtle shift in the church away from grace and toward legalism (The sermons, Care Group themes, etc.) It seemed like we were beginning to “drop the ball,” to quote CJ, when it came to the gospel. Well, we left the meeting 3-hours later, feeling well corrected, as the pastor and assistant pastor tag teamed us. This started a series of forced meetings with the pastors, over the course of a year or more, where our hearts were examined and we were denied attendance at the care group of our choice and warned to not talk to others about anything. Eventually, I was told that I could not count the offering anymore (I was the lead guy), then could not be on the Greeting Team, and finally, we were told we could not attend Care Group at all. Many people were shocked, but assumed the pastors knew what they were doing so didn’t ask questions. It was at this time that sermons from the pulpit were about, “protecting your pastors,” and “submitting to their authority and making it a joy to lead you.” I was determined to stay with my church family, His Body, and not succumb to the bullying by the pastors, but after receiving an absurd e-mail with accusations from the pastor, and feeling somewhat shunned by some others, we decided to leave peacefully to avoid a fight. I am concerned that this is not a local problem, but SGM-wide. I am sure that our pastors’ behavior was either condoned or overlooked by the regional SGM leadership team here. I think I will post this in other blogs as this is the first time I have summarized our experience.
Thanks for sharing, Keith!
Argh! Are they reading from a canned script? Is this the topic of one of the weeks at the Pastors College?
Hi Keith,
Welcome to the blog. You are certainly not alone. Many of us have gotten in trouble for not getting a pastor’s permission for something or other.
Acme, I think they must teach some of these techniques in the pastor’s college. I don’t see how else it could be so similar and widespread.
Hi Keith!… and welcome to The Refuge!
Thank you so much for sharing your story here. Sad to say, I’ve heard this same story over and over again, only the names and location have changed… so I agree with you that this is a widespread problem, SGM wide.
But that doesn’t change the fact that my heart was twisting as I read of you and your family’s experience at your SGM church. I’m so saddened that this was your experience!
(May I ask how you and your family are doing now? Of course, don’t feel obligated to respond… and if you would rather reply off the board, you can send an email to SGMRefugeATgmailDOTcom)
Grace,
Carole
Hi Keith,
Thanks for sharing, and I’m sorry for the pain you and your family went through. I was also in leadership and very devoted to SGM until I ran into the control issue. While my series of meetings ended amicably, I still had to leave in order to move on with God. Here are a few things to remember. In case you haven’t already realized it:
1. This was not your fault, and there probably wasn’t much you could do about it and maintain your integrity. Obviously, shutting up and saying sorry for reaching out to someone was not an option.
2. There is a grieving process due to the level of trust may of us put into SGM, so don’t be surprised if that takes a while.
3. If you get into a good church, you will find that the grace and freedom you are likely to experience will, over time, more than make up for any loss or injustice you feel. You and your family will be better off. All things work for the good of those who love the Lord and are called according to His purpose.
I’ll be praying for you.
Greg, Very wise advice.
Keith,
We get you. It hurts so much in the end to realize how we were a part of a group of people whose leaders were more concerned about us staying in our places, instead of finding our places in God. It would be interesting to see the letter sent to you (with names changed, of course). I’m considering putting up a letter sent to my husband and I, if he agrees. The more proof we can give that these things actually took place, the better! Welcome to the blog!
Hey Keith,
Thanks so much for sharing. Everytime you hear stories like yours it’s just as hard to hear. Like Carole said, it definitely is a widespread problem. My heart and my prayers go out to you and your family.
Keith,
Welcome! Thank you for sharing your story!
Did you and the others leave as a group, and are you still friends?
Keith,
Sounds like you had a lightening bolt too =)
You and your family are on my heart and in my prayers, as is everyone on this site and in Sovereign Grace. I’m so glad you shared with us. Thanks =)
Summer! LOLOLOL!!!
How are you doing? Send me an email when you get a chance and let me know how things are going… (if you want…)
Hello All,
There was a good message at New Life Church last Sunday on dealing with offense. The audio and video can be found here.
I hope it blesses you.
Greg
http://www.newlifechurch.org/
Well, as I promised Concerned, here is my story. (As you all can probably tell from the posting time, I’m no morning person).
My name is Ryan (last name edited by Jim), I’m 22, and I was an intern at the SGM church in St. Petersburg, Florida. When I posted at SGM survivors about 6 months ago, I used the name “exintern” because I hoped that a little anonymity would help protect me in my efforts to salvage some of my friendships at the church. The lies my old senior pastor spread about me have pretty much ended 95% of those friendships, so I don’t have anything to gain anymore by not disclosing my name. So, here I am, I’m not concerned with who knows I’m on here anymore, though I’ll probably keep posting under “exintern” for the sake of continuity.
I came to SGM in 2002 as a senior in high school. I made some friends, settled in despite some misgivings about the church’s lack of missions/evangelism (I’ve wanted to be a missionary since I was about 11), and became a member. I’m a bit of a theology/philosophy of religion nerd, so I got noticed by the leadership fairly quickly. I moved up the ranks (at an unprecedentedly young age for a non-pastor’s relative) and drank pretty deeply from the Mahaney Kool-Aid, as Jim might put it. This all culminated with me being made a pastoral intern in 2006.
I agreed to one year of part-time interning. After 6 months, though, I knew I was done. I was seeing behind closed doors now, and I saw an awful lot I didn’t like. I saw manipulation and controlling of church members. I saw a CEO-like leadership style from the senior pastor, with his supposed “plurality of elders” really nothing more than yes-men. I saw what I considered to be irresponsible uses of church finances. I saw major decisions being made with zero transparency to the church body. I wasn’t ok with any of it, so I started looking for a way out.
In January of 2007, I was engaged to my lovely wife Fallon (who had started working for a pro-life organization). I told the senior pastor that I wasn’t making enough money to support a wife (which was true, they never ended up paying me despite the pastor’s promise to “do what they could”. Thank the Lord I still had my college Starbucks job). I went out and got a job teaching math at a local public school, and quietly started looking/praying for another church.
Fallon and I were married in June. Some family issues that the pastors grossly mishandled/commited spiritual abuse in over the summer caused me to expedite the church-searching process. In October we found a wonderful church and made the switch. I wrote a very complimentary email to the pastors, both thanking them for all that they had done for me, and explaining in as un-insulting terms as I could muster what my disagreements were. The two main issues I mentioned were a lack of missions and evangelism, and my problems with the church polity structure. I thougt this was the end.
Our senior pastor emailed me back and asked if Fallon and I would meet with him & his wife, to which we agreed. Big mistake. They met us in a public place, and the pastor yelled and screamed at us, and called me insulting names like “insane”. Fallon was in tears, and we were both embarassed by the public setting. We left, again thinking this was the end.
A few weeks later, I found out that a church meeting had been called about us. During this meeting, the senior pastor had decided to spread lies about me from the pulpit. He told the congregation that my reasons for leaving were fabricated and bogus, that I had lied to Fallon about my reasons for leaving and manipulated her, that she wanted nothing to do with our leaving, and that they should pray for her. I found all of this out from old friends coming to confront me, including my own brother-in-law calling me an “emotionally-abusive husband” to my face. I quickly found that I had very few friends anymore.
Fallon called many of the ladies in the church to assure them that I had not abused her in any way, that she was very happy in our marriage, and that she had agreed with all of my reasons for leaving and that she was pleased with our new church. Rather than call me and apologize, people in the church just started shunning her too.
So here we are. We have been very blessed by our new church, where the pastor has ministered to us greatly. I haven’t forgotten my desire to be a missionary. 3 weeks from yesterday we’re moving to Boston so that I can attend law school: my goal is to be an attorney/missionary with International Justice Mission and fight against slavery and sex trafficking in Africa or Asia. My beautiful wife continues in her calling to fight in the pro-life cause, working with crisis pragnancy centers here now, and hopefully in Boston soon, and who knows where in the future.
Wow, I’ve written a lot! Thanks for patiently reading all of this.
Exintern,
Wow. I’m sorry for all you and your family have gone through. Thank the Lord you had the discernment to see the errors before being employed (and paid) by SGM full time. We also were lied about upon our controversial departure, but those told about you seem especially cruel. Isn’t it ironic, with all the preaching in SGM against gossip/slander, that the slander flies quick and plentiful when the shoe is on the other foot?
I’m delighted to hear that you and your lovely wife are still pursuing the Lord and all that He has put in your heart. Some folks get derailed for a season, sometimes a very long season, after SGM abuse. God bless you in your move and as you progress toward your law degree. It is exciting to older folks like myself (I have a 22 year old daughter) to see the next generation so committed to serving Jesus.
Ryan… I’m so sorry for all that you and Fallon (and your MOM!!) went through! I have to state the obvious, though… you are in a much better place now than you would have been if you had stayed and become a full-fledged SGM pastor. Can you imagine the “fakiness” you would have had to endure? :shiver: Of course, that doesn’t negate the facts, that you were sinned against, imho, in a very cruel manner. If I hadn’t lived through similar circumstances, I would be absolutely floored by your story.
What I find pretty amazing is the incredible amount of discernment and boldness you showed in the situation. As Jim said, SGM is not better off without you (although you are better off without them!)… they could use more men with discernment, boldness, a drive for true godliness and seeking His Truth. Instead they have a bunch of “yes men”, who help further their SGM kingdom.
Jim and I will be praying for you and Fallon as you move into this new and exciting time in your lives!
PATTY!!!!
As a Mom who also had rumors and lies spread about her kids (not from the pulpit, but sr pastor and others in leadership did nothing to stop the gossip and slander, even though they were fully aware of it), I know how difficult and hurtful it can be. I’ve said to others, you can talk about me and try to hurt me all you want (well… sorta…
), but DON’T try to do the same to my kids! I’m like a “mama bear” when it comes to my kids. I think that issue (my kids) was the proverbial straw that broke the camel’s back for me. My eyes were opened wide at that point, and many unbiblical, abusive practices were revealed to me.
You have a wonderful son, who loves God and is pursuing Him… you have to be so very proud! To see him stand up to SGM leadership, to question their authoritarian, abusive “standard operating procedures”, at the risk of himself, his reputation, his future, speaks volumes regarding his character and his commitment to God and His Truth.
My hope and faith for the future generation is alive and well, due to the godly character and commitment to the Lord I see in young men like Ryan!
CD-Host,
I don’t think the mishandling of the finances was irrespnsible in a “lose your tax-exempt status” sorta way.
I’ll give you a for-instance: Several times a year, the pastor would tell us all the church was having thin times, and could really use us tithing more. Yet we somehow managed, the year I was in the office, to spend more than $40,000 on Celebration (including everyone’s registration fees and such). Actually, when I threw that figure out, the pastor’s reaction made me think I might be low-balling that figure. Anyway, it was lots and lots of dough. Far more than we had EVER spent on, oh, I dunno, Missions or Evangelism (and no, SGMers, the 10% “tithe” to SGM doesn’t count as missions. Most of what that funds are CJ’s missions to find delicious lattes in cities where he might also stumble upon a Reformed demi-god to get cozy with).
Gracie and Carole,
Thank you so much for all of your kind words. Honestly, I wish my discernment was as good as you make it sound, Carole. There were plenty of times between quitting the internship and actually leaving that I wavered, doubted my convictions, etc. When we decided to move for law school, we tried for a time to just “stick it out” until the move to not be confrontational (wow, that means we could have still had 3 weeks to go in an SGM church *shudder*).
Thank you both so much for the prayers and blessings!
ex,
The events you recounted are not surprising but still disgusting to me. I will NEVER cease to be amazed at all the crap going on in SGM. (Yes, crap!) Even though my story, and probably most others’, are pretty similar.
I pray everything will go wonderfully for you and your lovely wife (I have met her before! She is very sweet =) ) in Boston. May God continue to direct your paths, heal your wounds, and bless you more than you could ever imagine! You guys will be on my heart!
Summer, thank you so much for the very kind words! I’m curious, when did you meet my wife?
You would think that with all the stories being told about SGM experieinces, that exintern’s would tip the balance, and people would start really hearing what we’re saying!
canary,
They’re going to hear it. What they choose to do with it remains to be seen.
I spent a long time on the phone with Ryan yesterday. SGM is not better off without him-only more comfortable.
ex,
I met your wife a few years ago when she was visiting her brother (away at college) with her family. We had lunch with a group of friends.
(I’m pretty sure it was her! I’ve never met anyone with her name, and she is from the same city as the young woman I remember =) Quite a sweet, lovely woman.
Hey Summer,
Maybe you’re thinking of someone else…my Fallon doesn’t have a college-age brother. She is really, incredibly sweet and lovely though
I want to thank each of you for your supportive comments and for sharing your stories. You have each experienced heartache and I am sorry for that. We all have a Savior who loves us very much, who came to bind up broken hearts, and who ever lives to intercede for us all. My wife and I are doing well. We realize that ultimately this was God’s doing and He intended all along to set us free! We are experiencing a level of freedom, grace, and love (for Him and from Him) that would not have come about otherwise. Jim, the families that left, left at different times and each was an independent, unique situation, but with the common thread of having experienced authoritarian control. Those of us who left remain friends. We all continue to have relationships with a few families who are still attending, but there is no communication with the majority of our friends who continue there. Honestly, we are all doing well. Canary, I no longer have a copy of the e-mail (And other letters) the pastor sent as I eventually asked myself why I was saving them, and as I was tempted to share them with others, I decided to get rid of them. I remain astonished at how similar all of our stories are though. Part of the mystery is answered, I think, if you read some of their recommended books on the church, particularly Mark Dever’s. From SGM’s point of view, purging the church in the form of people leaving is a good thing. The “front door” of the church should be narrow and incoming people scrutinized carefully before becoming members; the “back door” of the church should be wide open. Dever misused the verse regarding “narrow is the way…and broad is the way to destruction…” to justify this stance. I truly think that many of the SGM pastors believe that they are being good shepherds and protecting the church by aggressively managing those who don’t agree with them. I no longer accept as scriptural SGM’s view on the “local church” and see the doctrine more as one of the many means used to exert control over the membership. Because Christ has been so good to my wife and I, we are so much closer to completely forgiving now than we were months ago, and far less bitter.
Keith,
It will get less painful over time.
I can only imagine how painful it must be for you and your family considering how much of your time and effort was poured into the church.
I will be praying for your family and your healing. God is very good and I am sure that you will look back and see His hand supporting you through this ordeal.
Keith,
The good thing is that you and your wife are not alone. That’s what helped me and my husband, knowing that others here knew what we’d gone through. So, welcome, and I know you will be a big help to those who are leaving/have left SGM, and need a safe place to come.
ex,
Ok, I don’t know how I got so confused! I have never met your wife, but I think we have some mutual acquaintances =) I was confusing her with someone else.
Keith,
Excellent post!
So, I’m taking a big step here. Here’s my draft–and I would like some feedback.
28 July 2008
Dear (Pastor),
Thank you for your letter. I appreciate your willingness to give me the time and space I requested during the last few months and your faithfulness to follow up personally. DS, DD, and I do continue to experience God’s grace and the support of Christian fellowship.
Since January, we have been first visiting, then attending, and now participating more fully in the X church. After meeting with the rector and the assistant rector–and being assured of our fit with this particular local church in terms of polity, culture, and practice, I request a letter of transfer (or at least a certificate of standing) to Ascension effective immediately. Please remove my address, email address, and phone numbers from the directory and mailing lists.
Here is the address: (deleted here)
Leaving one local church in one family of churches after 22 years – all my adult life — to join with another local church in a very different family of churches is a step of faith, one filled with both joy and trembling. Despite the many ways that I tasted God’s goodness and experienced his Kingdom at CLC, I have never signed and cannot in good conscience sign the membership covenant. Despite the brevity of my sojourn at Ascension, my study of and experience with the Anglican church in particular and the mainline liturgical church community in general convinces me that I can be a fully functioning member there. I want my yes to be YES– and it can be at X.
Be assured that I am praying for Sovereign Grace and Covenant Life Church in general and for our friends in particular, that God would be glorified and that He will lead, guide, and provide.
Your sister in Christ,
Acme –
Very good letter. Not sure if you using the how to leave article, but it sounds really good. The only thing I’d work on is tone and I would break the steps up. If you are going for a letter of transfer there is no reason to contest membership. Phrase it something like “while I have never signed the membership covenant I have attended for 22 years and would like a letter of transfer”. A request for a transfer should be positive. You found another church in line with your discussion from a few months ago, you are being fed there…. You just are closing up the paperwork.
Keep the negative stuff (“cannot in good conscience sign the membership covenant”) if/until after he asserts that this church is not of “like faith and practice”. They may not. If you are intent on leaving SGM may want you out as quickly and painlessly as possible, their “wide back door” policy. So also drop the request for a letter of standing, wait for the follow up.
In other words I’d keep it positive until the letter of disaffiliation. No reason to indicate you expect a problem, yet.
Acme,
This seems to be CD’s area of expertise. I agree with his suggestions.
Thanks! Yes, I was using the how to leave article–and I’ve made some more adjustments. I am hoping to slide out that wide open back door.
Here’s my revised version. I want to use a tone of positive strength.
Thank you for your letter. DS, DD, and I do continue to experience God’s grace and the support of Christian fellowship.
Leaving one local church in one family of churches after 22 years – all my adult life — to join with another local church in a very different family of churches is a step of faith, one filled with both joy and trembling. We have been first visiting, then attending, and now participating more fully in the X Church in Gaithersburg. I have met with the rector and the assistant rector–and am assured of our agreement with this particular local church in terms of theology, polity, and practice.
I request a letter of transfer to X effective immediately. Please remove my address, email address, and phone numbers from the Covenant Life Church directory, care group rosters, and mailing lists. Here is the address to send the transfer letter: [deleted here]
Be assured that I am praying for Sovereign Grace and for Covenant Life Church, that God would be glorified and that He will lead, guide, and provide. We will also continue in Christian fellowship—with all its “one anothering”—with our dear friends from CLC.
Sounds good! One more suggestion / correction. drop the “effectively immediately”, use something like “at your earliest convenience”. Also SGM can’t effect a transfer by themselves the receiving congregation has work they may need to do, remember we are pretending that SGM is a responsible church here interested in doing its duty. You could add something like “at your earliest connivence. Please let me know if you run into any issues in effecting this transfer, as I am anxious to assist the transfer process between congregations in anyway possible. During the transfer process or upon completion of my transfer feel free to remove my address….”
Well, I sent off the letter to the pastors (as an email–I couldn’t find an envelope). The pastor is out of town, on vacation for two weeks, but I had cc’d two other pastors as well–and then forwarded the email to the pastor’s secretary.
And then, I took a bold step–maybe–and forwarded the email to those in SGM that I can still count as a friend (13 email addresses after 22 years). I wanted them to hear from me where I was going, if they didn’t know already for one reason or another (so not CLOSE friends really except for one or two). I included the following note:
FYI, please note the last line which I’m copying and pasting right here for emphasis: We will also continue in Christian fellowship—with all its “one another-ing”—with our dear friends from CLC.
Questions? Ask me.
Thank you all for your care and support!
Now I am sick to my stomach–worried that I might hear from someone, worried that I won’t. I jump every time I hear the tone for another email–all junk mail so far.
Hey Acme!
No worries!… you have no reason to fear anyone or anything, God is with you all the way!! He has lead you to this place and He will protect you and continue to guide you.
SGM and it’s leaders are like the big, mean looking bear in the circus… intimidating until they open their mouths and you realize that all of their teeth are missing…
There is nothing anyone can say or do to you to hurt you… you’ve been there, done that! What else can they do to you? Absolutely nothing!!!
Girlfriend, you are FREE!!!
(and if you DO need someone to get your back, give me a call… LOL!)
Me too, Acme!!
I got saved when I was in high school and started attending a sweet little church full of people of all ages. I met my husband there, we were married in the church and I even worked as church secretary for awhile. Eventually my husband and I left that church to go to one with a more continuist position on spiritual gifts. When we went in to tell our pastor, there was no fear. There was no intimidation. No one yelled or accused. In fact, I wept because I did not want to hurt him. When we heard from him or his family afterwards, it was a joy.
Contrast this with acme’s feelings right now and so many others. You’ve got to ask yourself WHY this is such a common occurrence among those of us who left PDI/SGM. Man, I so understand how you are feeling, acme. Worried that they will email back (and what unpleasantness that might bring), and worried that they won’t (meaning they don’t care). We will be praying for you.
(originally posted on Aug 1-re-posted by Jim)
Greg
I just noticed your post and think we know each other. I recall around where you left CLC, I had no idea you had nearly that bad of an experience etc. when you left. Especially when I heard you say you prayed with Mahaney around when you left.
My email address can be found on my blog if you care to email me. I am glad to hear you are doing better etc.
http://www.ikdg.wordpress.com
(originally posted on Aug 1-re-posted by Jim)
Acme, I agree with Gracie, the fact that leaving SGM or anything related brings such fear and dread to us is indicative of the spiritual abuse we’ve experienced while there – I am still in the process of walking out of my SGM church and still fearful at times what others will think (or not) I can so relate as well.
Please know you are not alone..our prayers are with you. Not to cheapen or somehow diminish the very real emotions you are feeling, but this song came to my mind and I hope it encourages you – and prompts a smile! some words have been obviously changed to fit our situation as SGM survivors, but you get the idea!
(now get the beat, and sing out loud! YOU ARE FREE!!)
First I was afraid
I was petrified
Kept thinking I could never live
without you by my side
But I spent so many nights
thinking how you did me wrong
I grew strong
I learned how to carry on
and so you’re back
ol’ Sovereign Grace
to bring back the guilt and shame
with false humility on your face
I should have changed my denomination
I should have moved across the sea
If I had known for just one second
you’d be back to condemn me
Go on now go, out of my mind
leave me alone now
’cause you’re not welcome anymore
weren’t you the one who tried to hurt me with those lies
you think I’d crumble
you think I’d lay down and die
Oh no, not I
I will survive
as long as I know how to love the Lord
I know I will stay alive
I’ve got all my life to live
I’ve got all my love to give
and I’ll survive
I will survive
It took all the strength I had
not to fall apart
kept trying hard to mend
the pieces of my broken heart
and I spent oh so many nights
just feeling sorry for myself
I used to cry
Now I hold my head up high
and you see me
somebody new
I’m not that chained up little person
still idolizing you
and if you still feel like checking in on me
just expect to find me free
now I’m saving all my worship
for Someone who’s loving me
(originally posted on Aug 1-re-posted by Jim)
You go, girl! Thanks for all of the encouragement–not a single response to my emails yet.
(originally posted on Aug 1-re-posted by Jim)
Hi Steve,
Thanks for your note. Yes, the strange thing about the whole experience is that while I maintained very good relationships with some pastors such as C.J. and Gary, I had a very difficult time with other leaders and eventually had to leave due to their positions on missions, theology, and the general environment of control and lack of flexibility.
I kept the conflicts private or within a very small circle of those directly involved, so most CLCers never knew what I went through. The letdown and personal impact of those struggles was far greater than I anticipated.
Unlike many others, I am neither in the “they’re the best” nor the “their bad and dangerous” group. IMHO, the ministry continues to have good qualities and tremendous potential, but a potential that will not be reached until they humbly address some serious and wide-spread flaws. God grant all of us the courage to remove the logs from our own eyes.
BTW, I could not find your email address on your blog. How can I get in touch with you?
Greg
(originally posted on Aug 1-re-posted by Jim)
Hi, Greg,
I must confess that I keep trying to put a last name and a wife’s name to your name. I’m sure we must have met–you probably knew my estranged husband Gary. I’m picturing the folks I knew who were actively praying for missions–and I am so glad you went to serve as a tent-maker. Before CLC, I went to Urbana ’84 and hoped to go with ELIM or Wycliff sometime. I was thrilled by the stories of folks sneaking Bibles into China or into Russia.
I would agree with you about SGM: wheat and weeds growing up together–and it pleases the LORD to let them both grow for now.
(originally posted on Aug 1-re-posted by Jim)
ACME,
This sounds very familiar. Recent posts are driving me crazy because I know several Gary s and several Steves. How can I contact you.?
Greg C.
(originally posted on Aug 1-re-posted by Jim)
Greg Cxxxxxxx (maybe?) Here’s my email: Ehlersacm at aol
(originally posted on Aug 1-re-posted by Jim)
Greg
Here is my email addres: IKDGNot at Yahoo
I do hope that soon SGM wakes up to the problems that they have in their group. From what I have seen, heard and read, a lot of this controlling has been going on since their beginning but seems as if it is increasing vs. decreasing. It is a sad story on something that started out so well has moved to this state.
As Acme indicated, God for now seems to be content with weeds and wheat growing up together for now. If what I have read here and on the SGMSurvivors Blog is any where near true, then I wonder when God’s patience with this will last. That is something for God to decide.
I will post another comment on the “scorched earth” entry.
Looking forward to hearing from you.
(originally posted on Aug 1-re-posted by Jim)
Another way to look at “wheat and weeds growing up together–and it pleases the LORD to let them both grow for now.” is that a little leaven leavens the whole lump. That is SGM might be doing some good things but their sin issues including control etc. is “leavening” the whole lump.
(originally posted on Aug 2-re-posted by Jim)
acme,
i enjoyed seeing you and your kids recently!
we are still friends
and i am staying at my aunt’s house this week and she was asking about you and wondering how you are doing and hoped you are doing well. (she is worried about your neighborhood :-/ ) I’m sure she would love to hear from you
(originally posted on Aug 2-re-posted by Jim)
Greg,
Um, I’m from CLC and I’m almost positive I know who you are. I have always admired your courage and I had no idea of all that went on behind the scenes. When you left all I heard was silence. I am so sorry. I will be praying. My first name is unusual and if I said it you would know exactly who I am. Your story has really affected me so I would also like to email you. I will ask Steve240.
(originally posted on Aug 2-re-posted by Jim)
thank you, troubled! and thanks for taking such good care of my furry children (oh, and the feathery ones too).
(originally posted on Aug 2-re-posted by Jim)
I think it’s so cool that you guys are connecting! It’s so healing to talk to other people who were with us when all this “stuff” was going on. We really ARE brothers and sisters in the same family with God the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit.
(originally posted on Aug 2-re-posted by Jim)
Greg
I paused over one significant item in your comment due to reading other information.
You indicated “Finally, I caught my pastor in a lie in front of his pastor. The senior leader asked me to leave for a moment, and when I returned, they apologized sincerely. (This may have been a historic event).”
What if anything was ever done to this pastor you caught lying? I am assuming that this was an intentional lie and not something the pastor had misunderstood but was done to cover up something etc? If this was intentional, wouldn’t it be a reason for a pastor to at least step down for a season if not something more severe? Doesn’t SGM claim that they take integrity quite seriously?
(originally posted on Aug 2-re-posted by Jim)
Greg you said:
<blockquote>Finally, I caught my pastor in a lie in front of his pastor. The senior leader asked me to leave for a moment, and when I returned, they apologized sincerely. (This may have been a historic event).</blockquote>
With everything else you shared I passed over this. That was quite significant that you caught him in this. You use the word “lie.” Does that mean you feel that it was that he intentionally said something he knew wasn’t the truth or just that he was confused or just didn’t remember? I am assuming the former but want to be sure
Assuming that this was an intentional lie, what was done to the pastor caught in this lie. Did the Sr. Pastor who I believe is now the head of SGM ever do anything to discipline this pastor for lying like this? One would think that this would a reason for a pastor to at least step down for a season if he intentionally was lying if no longer be a pastor.
My guess is that this younger pastor was one of the pastors at CLC that was related to the Sr. Pastor and wouldn’t doubt if this played a role in whatever was done to the lying pastor.
I would be curious to hear what you have to say on this and what you know.
Steve
)
(Still checking my email in box
Ok-I’ve restored every comment in this thread that I could. I think I’ve got all of the stories back up.
I lost a conversation between Carole and Ryan’s (ex intern) mom, and had to re-post 15 comments that were posted on August 1 and 2. Everything else should be intact.
If you posted your story here, and I missed it, please re-post.
I’m finally going to share my story on here – for those of you who have not read my blog with the numerous emails to and from my pastors, I’ll give you the short version here what the last 3 years of my life was like. I don’t really care if this gives away my identity or location. While I still won’t name names, I will not be extra careful as before to leave out things such as time frames and hints to who and where I am. I just don’t care anymore if my SGM church knows I am posting online, nor do I care if my friends from SGM know. In fact, I know more than one of them are reading on these blogs.
I am doing this now because I don’t think I will be around online for much longer – I plan to post on my own blog as I continue to grow and heal, but the time is fast approaching for me to move on from the survivors and refuge blogs. I remember when Butterfly felt this way and said she would not be posting anymore, and at the time I thought “WHAT??” Because, I so desperately NEEDED you guys and could not imagine NOT being online “hanging out” with you. Thank you all for your encouragement, but it will be time for me to move on soon and so I will share my story, but mostly i will focus on what the Lord has taught me since leaving, and how I have managed to come this far (which is all by the grace of GOD!))
I had been going to a Southern Baptist church for three years prior to the SGM church I attended. I knew the pastor and a few people who went there, nobody actively “recruited” me, but I was at a large church and didn’t really get personal attention. Which I very much wanted since I was self-seeking and insecure. ANyway, I had lots of questions back then, about eternal security, election, false converts, evangelism, baptism of the Holy Spirit, spiritual gifts, etc. I had such a longing for the deeper things of the Lord. But it seemed nobody would or could answer my questions.
I began asking questions of the SGM pastor (who, by the way, was not officially SGM at the time, but they were in the courtship process before being adopted) He always took the time to talk to me, something that made me feel absolutely special and appreciated. Looking back, had i not been so insecure, and had I actually gotten into the Word of God and asked the Holy SPirit to lead and guide me into all truth, I would not have been as open to joining the SGM church. In retrospect, those things made me vulnerable and opened me to bondage and later idolatry.
I joined the church after attending some bible studies for 3 months. We were studing church history, and I remember thinking ‘Finally – I’m really learning! This is so much deeper than I am used to! I’m finally being FED!” Little did I know that the feedings were laced with bondage. I became dependent on the teachers in the church to feed me, and gradually read on my own less and less. I read more books by men that were suggested, and I slowly moved to the point where I could not make decisions for myself without the help, counsel and advice (not to mention “covering”) of my pastors. I faithfully attended care group every week, made meals, helped in the library with the new books, etc. Anything I was asked to do I did if I could. When I couldn’t I felt horrible, as if they would get mad at me. I was SO INSECURE. I was realling eating up all the manipulation and never knew it was manipulation. All the while becoming more in bondage.
Over time, I lost my joy, hunger for the Word, became unable to worship or pray like I used to (I used to weep every day in prayer – it slowly turned into a weeping over how wicked I was, but never of His goodness to me) I became judgmental of women who worked outside the home, women who didn’t homeschool, women who used birth control, people who listened to secual music or watched TV or played vidoe games, I judged women who were not content being single (I was single and faked I was content) I judged everyone over everything. It was really tiring being “god”.
Finally, after a series of events in my personal life, the Lord began to show me my idolatry and dependency on the church. I knew nothing of SGM problems and had not connected it to SGM at all. I figured the problem was just me (which, in part, it was – I certainly had sinned but I had no idea why I was having such a hard time breaking free from the bondage and idolatry.)
From December 2007 until April of 2008 I tried to break free from the idolatry. I confessed it to others, spoke less, prayed more, tried to pratice my spiritual disciplines more, I was desperate and confused, depressed, and frustrated. I prayed that the Lord would reveal what the problem was – to bring it to light. Two days later I found the SGMSurvivors website. After that, I never looked back. I never went back to the church, and only explained (vaguely) to two close friends (who I know refer to as Sally and Mary on my blog) that I was leaving because I had been convicted of idolatry of the church.
I emailed my pastors (all of which are on my blog) and after about 2 months of them trying to get me to come back, they gave up on me. I have not heard from them since early June. One accused me of being a mystic (because I wanted to hear and follow the voice of God and have an intimate relationship with him again) and a fanatic. It was during this time the Lord brought back to my memory several things that happened over the last three years that I now know were a result of the spiritual abuse, shepherding, manipulation and control, etc.
So, I visited a few churches after leaving, only to find I really have been abused and needed time to heal. I didn’t trust ANYONE at any of the churches I visited. I did reconcile with my old pastor but the Lord did not lead me to attend that church, but He did give me a glimpse that forgiveness and love are possible after being hurt. I am praying one day I can see my SGM church that way.
I have continued to stay in contact with some of the SGM friends, but most have shunned me. Those that still talk to me talk to each other I found out, compared notes, and think I am falling away. The need to “prove them wrong” was becoming an obsession for a while. Now I am being more real with my feelings – lately i have been very depressed and “bored” spiritually. There was a time I would not share that because I was afraid the SGM people would say “That’s because you are in sin and you are out of fellowship from the local church and it’s covering!”
Now I just don’t care. I love the Lord. I want to see others set free. And I want to continue moving towards freedom myself. But, I can’t keep reading of the abuses day in and day out on these blogs, in the beginning, it was actually comforting (not to be morbid) because I saw that I wasn’t crazy or imagining things. But after a while, I noticed that all the reports of spiritual abuse, trying to figure things out, all contributed to my anger, resentment, and bitterness. It is because of this I can’t be online anymore reading everything. It is like salt in the wounds some days. I know nobody here intends that, but a little salt helps to heal, while too much just stings. And my wounds have been stinging for a while. It’s time to remove myself from the salt and get some of that “balm” the Bible talks about!
I love all you dearly – and I hope you stay in touch via email. My email address is concerned_3AThotmailDOTcom if anyone wants to email. I’d love to stay in touch as well…I will pop in from time to time perhaps, but I will be praying for all of you and trust the Lord will continue to reveal, restore, and redeem the loves that have been affected by SGM over the years. Blessed be His Name!
Concerned,
Thank you for posting your story! I’m sorry that it somehow got stuck in our spam filter for 2 hours.
I think everyone needs to read what you’ve said here. Many of us who had “problems” with SGM can relate to what went on in your heart. SGM was an idol in my heart, and many times, I allowed their leaders to be “mediators” in my life-I just didn’t know it!
Moving away from the blogs can be a very good thing
Concerned,
Thank you for sharing. I completely understand the need to move on. I’m so glad you have found what you needed just at the right time on the blogs. God is good.
Blessings to you!
I have grown up in a Sovereign Grace church. Now that I’m in my twenties, I think my eyes are being opened. I have always tended to be legalistic, thinking I have to follow a set of rules in order to be a real Christian. I’ve been really closed minded to other churches, thinking that my sgm church was the best church there was out there. When I encountered other Christians, I thought that I was somehow better than they were. Wow.. how ridiculous this sounds to me now! How arrogant. I cannot believe how my heart can deceive me.
Anyway, my eyes are slowly being opened. I still can fall into my old tendencies and I am regularly reminding myself of God’s grace upon myself and others. My church is not the best church ever. In fact, another church may be better for me (shock!!).
One thing in particular I’ve become aware of lately is the control over people. Some of my friends are very controlling and for awhile I thought they were right in whatever they said because I thought “they are godlier than I am”. And when I confront them on things they get really particular about specifics and claim they don’t know what I’m talking about and they’ve never done such a thing (when in fact I can remember specific circumstances when they have). Somehow they manage to turn the conversation around to make me think that I am totally wrong, or to something I have done wrong, or to make me feel stupid for not being able to remember specifics (because I get so scatterbrained while talking to them that I get all turned around and forget everything I’ve thought of telling them).
Then I looked at the families and parents of my friends — and they are really controlling too! Some parents don’t let their grown adult daughters leave the house without permission. Or do anything without their permission for that matter. If we do go out and do something, there has to be a guy present to protect us. So what about girl time outside of the house?! I’m a free spirit and sitting at the house just leaves me bored. How are the girls under these parents supposed to learn how to live life if they aren’t allowed? How will they act when they get out in the world? How will they know how to do anything? For awhile I wondered why I liked hanging out with a few different friends (who are also free spirits and whose parents are definitely not controlling) more than some of my closer friends and I realized it was because of what they were “allowed” to do… Life was much more fun with them!
So here I am now, continuing to realize more everyday, some things making more sense as I read this blog and sgmsurvivors. I continue to attend my SGM church, but have begun to wonder and pray if I am supposed to stay there. I really have no idea where to go from there. I don’t know what other churches are in my area, or if they are any good. The thing is, I really do love my friends (please don’t get me wrong from what I said earlier, I’m really just concerned for them, and don’t like how their parents treat them and how it has rubbed off on them, therefore making it how they treat me and others). So, I’m not totally ready to leave my friends that I’ve had for so many years, and I’m not totally sure I’m strong enough to as I’m trying to figure myself out.
I’m feeling very lost and confused.
eponine,
I’m so glad you found Jim and Carole’s blog. Perhaps the feelings of being lost and confused is the Lord’s way of getting your attention. Maybe He is bringing new direction into your life. Maybe seeking the Lord more on your own would be a good thing. He truly can speak to your heart. He can show you what to do.
In the meantime, we are all hear to listen to you and pray. I’m sending hugs [[[[[[[[eponine]]]]]]]]. You aren’t alone!
Concerned,
You are a brave woman. Look how far you’ve come! I’m glad you are strong enough to move on. We will miss you here, but moving on is a good thing when you’re ready. Don’t loose my email address!
Acme –
All this traffic reminded me of your situation. Is the receiving pastor willing to grant membership without a letter of transfer (i.e. now)? Right now SGM is out of compliance they have a positive obligation to respond (not necessarily to grant) that they are failing to fulfill. That’s good, because it is going to invalidate any later action. So if you can close now is a good time to do it, and then we can do a very simple disaffiliation letter informing them that their failure to assist in the transfer has forced an out of process transfer (we’ll phrase a little nicer)…..
What is wonderful there is that in discussing this issue they are going to have to mention that you requested transfer and they didn’t bother to say anything. So if they go after you later with all sorts of slander about you having fled discipline they are going to be committing tortable acts (i.e. you can sue and win if you want).
I mean them writing the letter would be better but not responding still isn’t bad assuming the recievng paster is ready to act. So it comes down to that.
Eponine,
What you share particularly saddens me because these principles are being taught to and regurgitated by the next generation. It can be no accident that these attitudes have continued for decades and the second generationers are being affected by them.
But like my friend canary, let me say, You are not alone! We will be praying for you that the Lord will keep you through this whole process. God’s Grace is shocking and wonderful. We will pray that you receive a life-changing measure of it! Blessings!
BTW, is your name Eponine a Les Miserables reference?
CD-Host
You might have missed my PS in another thread, but I did get a response from the pastor. Here’s the response:
“Thanks for getting back to me. I am grateful to God that you and your family are doing well and have found a home there at the Church of the Ascension.
There is no formal policy for us to effectively transfer you from CLC to there. We simply support your choice to leave and release you with our blessing and prayer that God would continue to pour out His grace to you in the Gospel. Should your new church have some formal process of making you a member in which they would want to contact us (similar to how we might contact a former church for somebody seeking to be a member here), we would be happy to support that.
So we release you at your request from membership here and pray the best for you and your family in the months and years to come.”
I was surprised that not ONE of my THIRTEEN friends from CLC responded at all–by email or face-to-face–to the email I sent to them, forwarding my letter and assuring them that I still very much wanted to continue “one-anothering” with them. I had hoped for even one response–hopefully saying, “of course, we will, Silly” and not “we hope to keep in touch, but really we’re so busy in our church that we really don’t have time/energy/resources to keep up with you.”
Was it too dramatic/too self-pitying/too patently obvious or something for a response?
No Acme, it wasn’t.
I’m sorry. {{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{ }}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}
Acme-it’s not you, it’s just what they do.
Acme, I’ve learned since leaving SGM and rethinking “all things church” that the bottom line is this: Jesus really is all we need. People during the Middle Ages didn’t even have Bibles and the church was totally corrupt, yet the faith of the saints prevailed. Why? Because faith is personal, and when you have it, you thrive. Even if you don’t have all the answers, your knowledge is lacking or incomplete, faith is still possible!! Saving faith is possible!
I’m not discounting the blessings of corporate worship or the Body, or the need for the Word of God, simply referring to a very dark time in the history of the church – one where you’d think the gospel would pretty much be wiped out along with Christianity. but what I am saying is that when we have placed our hopes, dreams, security, etc in the CHURCH when things don’t go as we had hoped, then we are disappointed. So what you are feeling is typical of most Christians – everything we are exposed to and taught as American evangelicals, all our needs, etc are to be found in the Church supposedly – but when the church abuses you, it really is unsettling. So where do oyu turn when the church has let you down?
My advice to you is to run as fast as you can to the feet of JESUS. Don’t spend too much time asking the “why” questions – the answers will come in time. If you spend too much time focusing on getting the answers, you will be distracted from what is most needed right now, and that is personal time with Jesus to build a personal faith. The enemy of our souls will work hard to get us to think about ANYTHING other than those things that will ultimately free us and give us the abundant life Christ came to give us.
So, seek Him. Don’t get distracted trying to figure it all out. In child-like faith, ask the questions you have TO THE LORD and let the answers come to you. Don’t go looking for them all…you’re likely to get sidetracked. And when you are coming out of spiritual abuse like we are, it is critical to remain focused and not get distracted in our vulnerability.
I’ll be praying for you….
Thank you, Concerned. He is all that I need–and honestly, I’m too busy as a single mom and a teacher about to start the new school year to dwell on this too much.
I’ve been reflecting on the life of David and the Psalms. The Lord is near us even when we sin and even when we are sinned against. When trouble and persecution come or when we get distracted by the riches and machinations of the world, He is an ever present help.
John Piper writes about sustaining grace
“Not grace to bar what is not bliss
(oops I forgot this part) but this
the grace that orders our trouble and pain
and then in the darkness is there to sustain”
“Orders” meaning puts boundaries and limitations on – when, where, to what extent.
Acme and Concerned,
Good words, both of you. Thumbs up!
eponine,
What Gracie said about second generation SGMers is so true. You are coming to question what you’ve been taught, by people you’ve trusted since you were little. If the Lord is showing you that there is more to your life with Him than what you’ve been taught, then embrace it. Don’t fear. He is so gentle when He leads us, especially when we are confused. You don’t have to leave where you are at right now. You just need to hear Jesus as He gently speaks and guides.
Hebrews is a great place to start reading. It explains so much about what faith really is. I found that, while my leaders were teaching me about the sins of not submitting, not speaking enough about my sins, not having my home as perfect as they desired, my true sin was unbelief. Hebrew speaks of this in great detail. Concerned struggled with idolatry of leadership. I had that, as well. I needed to see my true Lord with eyes of faith in a way I was never taught to by the churches I attended. Realize that, even though we are meeting you on the internet, our hearts feel for you in a strong way. You truly are not alone.
To everyone else:
I must apologize for something. I feel that, lately, I have allowed myself to become cynical. It is one thing to feel strongly for people who have or are struggling with authoritarian church abuse. It is another to see so much of it that you just want to throw your hands in the air and give up on the church all together. I have been feeling this way for a little while. I see that this is entirely the wrong direction to take. Right now I ask the Lord’s forgiveness. I choose to turn into the direction that He walks – I will let love be my guide. Please, forgive me if my cynicism has shown through on this blog at any time.
I love the Lord and His people. I hear His heart crying, “Let My people go!” He hates injustice, but He continues to move in love. He is merciful. He is forgiving. If I do not walk like the Lord does in these things, then I am of no help to this blog or the people who come here for guidance, and I should get off.
Jim and Carole, I know you began this blog to right a very great wrong. I believe your hearts are still in that place. I hope that your goals are achieved, because they will only help the church.
When people like eponine come on, I see another direction this blog could take, along with your reasons for beginning it. We can offer solutions to how to survive the terrible experiences that so many of us have had. We don’t just have to talk about what happened to us. We can talk about how we came through, to find our freedom in Christ. We can offer verses and books and tapes and teachers that helped us find our place in Christ. We can truly be the heart and hands of Jesus as we serve those who come here.
As I was telling my husband of my change of heart, he directed me to this verse in Phillipians 2:
“Let each of you esteem and look upon and be concerned for not merely his own interests, but also each for the interests of others. Let this same attitude and purpose and humble mind be in you which was in Christ Jesus: [Let Him be your example in humility:] Who, although being essentially one with God and in the form of God [possessing the fullness of the attribues which make God God], did not think this equality with God was a thing to be eagerly grasped or retained. But stripped Himself of all priviledges and rightful dignity, so as to assume the guise of a servant (slave), in that He became like men and was born a human being. And after He had appeared in human form, He abased and humbled Himself [still further] and carried His obedience to the extreme of death, even the death of the cross!” Amplified version
I do not in anyway put this heart of cynicism on anyone else here! I see it only in myself, and truly repent. I thank the Holy Spirit who is perfectly able to show me my sin, and is merciful in dealing with me. To all of you, I am truly sorry.
To eponine: the love and grace of our Living God will keep you.
To Concerned: THANK YOU!
To Jim and Carole: You both are heroes in my eyes. Thanks again for starting SGMrefuge.
canary,
Your presence makes this a better place.
Aw shucks, this Canary has a big tear in her wittle eye.
Thanks, Jim.
Thank you for your prayers and thoughts for me. I really appreciate it. I think this is going to be a long process for me while I decide who I really am in Christ and what I really believe and where I believe God wants me to be. I want to start afresh but part of me is afraid because I’ve been at the same place my whole life. Stepping into a church of people I don’t know sounds so scary to me! lol Especially a smaller church where they probably all know each other and I’m the new person.
Gracie,
Yes Les Miserables is one of my favorite books/musicals!
eponine,
Welcome!
I have no advice, not knowing your situation.
I am confident that you’ll be ok.
God knows the plans He has for you-and they are good!
eponine,
Are you of the age to make your own decisions? Are your parents still involved in SGM?
Take your time. Wait on the Lord. He will lead you. We all understand your fears, having experienced them ourselves. Take time to hear from the Lord before you take action. He speaks through His word, in your heart, through other people, and some ways you might least expect. I’m praying for you!
canary,
Yes I am old enough to make my own decisions and my parents are still involved in sgm although I believe they would be fine with me leaving as long as I was sure it was God’s will.
eponine – take your time, like Canary said. Get in the Word. Don’t feel the need to rush things. A book I have been reading that has been very helpful is called “The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse” by David Johnson and Jeff VanVonderen.
By the time I picked up this book, three months after leaving my SGM church, I had realized most of the signs of spiritual abuse from these blogs. But this book was amazing in that it really points to Christ, Scripture, and gets you on the fast track to healing- by the way, the fast track is simply hanging out with Jesus!
It doesn’t take long to identify whether or not or how you have been abused. What takes time is thinking through things like: what made me susceptible (if anything), how can I prevent this in the future, what has happened to my faith since this happend, is it stronger or am I having a crisis of faith now that I no longer know how to trust the church?
Some of the chapters are:
Spiritual Abuse is not new, The Pre-Abuse Set-up, Identifying the Abusive System, when you cannot leave, Revictimizing victoms, image is everything, how to escape a spiritual trap, renewing the mind, and recovering Right Focus.
I think one of the best pieces of advice I have received time and again from Canary was to take things slow and allow myself to live under grace, and not the law. When you come out of a legalistic, controlling and authoritarian church, this is VERY hard to too. I literally have to remind myself time and again – give grace (to myself, to my son, to others) and I mean Biblical grace, not the grace as defined (or redefined rather) by SGM. This grace doesn’t come in the context of our wicked hearts, but this grace is understood when we receive the holiness and goodness of GOD’S HEART. Always focus on HIM, not yourself. I always thought that focusing on myself was OK as long as I was thinking of my sin and wicekd heart, but this is so damaging! That is not living under grace. And we are under grace now, Jesus has set us free!!
I hope and pray your time on this blog will help transition your heart to healing, and you will find that blessed joy that comes from finding your identity is indeed IN CHRIST.
Cd-Host,
I really like your idea. I was already planning on trying out other churches but I wasn’t quite sure to start and I think you gave me an idea on how to start! Thanks!
Concerned,
Thanks for the book advice. I’ll have to look into that. I know in some ways I have been abused through manipulation by friends and adults, but I’m just realizing this to a small extent and I don’t think I fully understand the depth of this problem. I feel so burdened down by how I am not as godly as those other people who have hours of quiet time every day and never miss it. I can’t force myself to have something I don’t desire right now, especially as frequently as the church tells me I should. Just wondering, do other churches push quiet times as much as mine does?? We have accountability just for how many we had that week, and what we studied. I want to have time with God, i really do, but I feel so weighed down by the burden that I HAVE to have it just to report back to my friends that I find no joy in it. God is so distant, I feel like I don’t even know him anymore. I’ve knocked and the door has not been opened to me and asked and have not received his reminder that he is near me. I’m almost at the point of giving up. I’m not sure what to do!
Eponine,
What you’re describing about your quiet time is a perfect description of legalism – you’re being coerced into performing, in order to get someone’s approval for “correct” performance. If your grandmother said she loved and approved of you, only when you called her every week, you’d feel the same way: this is manipulative and being forced upon me.
I heard one teacher say that we should realize that God is speaking to us all the time in various ways, and that it’s easier to reply than we might think. Then the formal “quiet time” becomes icing on the cake, not the cake itself. You’re probably already thinking about God several times a day – you can use those situations, even if they’re brief, to worship him and talk with him. He’s not waiting for a ceremony!
It might also help to just read one of the gospels slowly , asking God to let you hear him speaking to you, through the gospel. In the Old Testament, reading slowly through Isaiah chs. 40 – 66 will give you lots of pictures of God as a loving, forgiving God who wants to bless you. Reading the Bible slowly, meditating on it like you’re “eating” it, can really bless your spirit and give God’s Spirit lots of avenues to start *real* conversations with you.
You’ve probably heard people talking about journaling. For years, I found God speaking to me repeatedly, as I would just write to myself about my life. He’d show me things I didn’t know about myself, life, others, him. And it was totally non-threatening, since I wrote whenever I felt like it. This might help you now.
The key in all of this is friendship, not performance. God will be happy to talk with you every day, but he’s not angry with you if he doesn’t. His blessings will still flow to you no matter what. The cool thing about talking with him every day is that over time, he begins to share more of his heart with you – revealing more life-giving truth from the Bible and in your talks with him. It becomes something to look forward to, not dread.
I’ve taken a lot of comfort over the years in looking at the prophecy that God “forced” out of Baalam. An enemy of the Israelites hired Balaam to curse God’s people in the wilderness, but God instead gave Balaam three prophetic blessings that he spoke over them. What God showed me was that these prophetic statements revealed the love God had for his people, even though they were constantly disobeying and grumbling against him in the desert! When given an opportunity to use Balaam as a prophet, God caused him to speak three blessings over them! Surely he feels the same way toward us today – we are his sons and daughters, hidden in Jesus Christ and made wonderful by him.
Here’s the last prophetic word Balaam spoke over Israel, in Numbers 24. I hope you find it encouraging.
“The oracle of Balaam son of Beor,
the oracle of one whose eye sees clearly,
4 the oracle of one who hears the words of God,
who sees a vision from the Almighty,
who falls prostrate, and whose eyes are opened:
5 “How beautiful are your tents, O Jacob,
your dwelling places, O Israel!
6 “Like valleys they spread out,
like gardens beside a river,
like aloes planted by the LORD,
like cedars beside the waters.
7 Water will flow from their buckets;
their seed will have abundant water.
“Their king will be greater than Agag;
their kingdom will be exalted.
8 “God brought them out of Egypt;
they have the strength of a wild ox.
They devour hostile nations
and break their bones in pieces;
with their arrows they pierce them.
9 Like a lion they crouch and lie down,
like a lioness—who dares to rouse them?
“May those who bless you be blessed
and those who curse you be cursed!”
[end]
God also showed me that he brings each one of his people “out of Egypt” – out of bondage and slavery, and points us toward the promised land of the Kingdom of God. On the way, he takes each one of us through the desert, where he reveals himself and reveals to us our own heart attitudes. His goal is to show that he is the answer to all our needs, and that we can trust him just as the Israelites should have trusted him.
God wants to bring you out of the bondage of legalism, and into the liberty you’ve been given in Jesus Christ. Right now you’re on the journey of discovering that freedom.
keepinstep,
Wow thanks so much for that advice and for the scripture, it was so helpful and encouraging!
Thinking about it as the icing on the cake is a great analogy as well.
Thanks!
kis – wonderful advice. I also find journaling so helpful as a means to settle my heart and hear from the LORD.
For a season, in a CG I attended, the CGL told his wife not feed their kids breakfast until she had had a quiet time, because he wanted to help us all see that we must make God a priority–and making him a priority meant time with him in the morning before anything else. This season was my worst experience in CG I have ever had.
I used to beat myself up because I did not find it absolute joy to have a quiet time, to spend hours worshipping, to spend hours listening to ever longer sermons, to go to huge meeTings and conferences, that my picture of heaven did not look ANYTHING like church as I experienced it at CLC.
I am so grateful that Jesus loves me, just the way I am.
Eponine,
I wish you well and will be praying for you as you go on this journey into embracing your autonomy and the freewill that is your birthright.
CD- Host, I have to strongly disagree with your advice to Ep. I know you are not a Christian, (according to your blogger profile) so I don’t really expect you to be able to give (or understand) Biblical advice. But your advice was really unbiblical and I can’t just act like it want’ said- I say this in love for both you and Ep, who really needs the guidance of God’s Word right now – and nothing else. We’ve all listened to others for too long, including well-meaning people. We all need to go back to the Word to lead and guide us, and be careful not to stray from it or turn to the right or to the left.
Now, perhaps you think I am being too hard on you – and if so, and you believe your advice was Biblical, I would like to hear your justification. Otherwise, there is nothing pointing her to Christ in what you said. Above all else, that is what allows us to heal from spiritual abuse. Otherwise we are in danger peddling worldly psycho-babble, and our personal agendas on this blog.
I think it only fair to share your personal background with the people on this blog like Epi you are giving counsel to – there may be an unspoken expectation from some on the site that all posters have experienced SGM abuse or some sort of abuse at some point, and certainly an expectation that people are Christians. (everyone, if I am wrong here please corerct me, but that was my assumption when I first came on this site) I think you need to clarify your spiritual background for the record (or perhaps I just did) I’m not talking about doctirne here, just whether or not you claim to be a follower of Jesus Christ or not, and a believer in His Word. I didn’t see this on your blog.
this is a place where vulnerable and hurting people come for encouragement, support, prayer, and Biblical counsel. I think Jim and Carole would agree, but if I’ve overstepped some boundaries somewhere here by pointing out the need for CD-Hosts’ counsel (and everyone else’s for that matter) to be Biblical, please feel free to correct me Jim.
I cannot in good conscience before God and those on this blog stand by and see vulnerable people who were spiritually abused being given worldy advice. I just can’t.
CD-Host, OK, please do clarify, because I just went back to read your profile and you have changed it since I last read it. It used to read that you were not a Christian. Has this changed? I think you know the time I am referring to that I visited your blog and at that time I read your profile. I also left a comment at that time. Thanks for clarifying.
Concerned, I like and respect you, but I don’t completely agree.
She needs to get into the Word, but she needs the support of other people as well.
Additionally, someone that has grown up in a place like SGM will likely find themselves reading scripture with the spin that they grew up believing was the correct interpretation.
Finding some solid church communities and test driving them over a course of time may be therapeutic to her.
Ep, you said:
“I feel so burdened down by how I am not as godly as those other people who have hours of quiet time every day and never miss it. I can’t force myself to have something I don’t desire right now, especially as frequently as the church tells me I should. Just wondering, do other churches push quiet times as much as mine does??”
I agree with KIS, this is a result of the legalism you’ve been under. Spending time in the presence of GOd should be a joy, but when you are in bondage you cannot worship God. I don’t think church-hopping is what you need right now. It isn’t about what things in church are pleasing to you – it is about getting in the presence of God and allowing HIM to speak to your heart, spirit, and soul. He speaks peace to you, it is HIm you must be with. Switching churches is not the solution.
We will never be satisfied when we attempt to control our relationship with God via religion. And it is likely that you, like me and many others, are realizing the lack of personal faith you may have because church was the illusion that made you think you had faith – because oyu went to church, tithed, etc you were faithful. But nothing satisfies the soul, and legalism sucks the very life out of you and quenches the Holy Spirit.
Isaih is a wonderful book on captivity, bondage, idolatry, and repentance. But don’t worry! It is ALL in the context of God’s unending mercy, grace, loving kindess, and holiness. I’ve found much peace in reading through it. Isaiah 61 is a wonderful place to begin. Let it be a balm to your wounds. Juse seek Jesus. Don’t read the Word because someone told you to or out of a sense of obligation or because you think you should, read HIs Word because you are desperate for Him. And if you are not desperate for Him, ask Him to make you so. But allow yourself some grace right now.
I remember thinking after leaving my church that while I was totally confused and could not feel the presence of God anymore like I used to before the SGM church. I had slowly become aware of my sin and where I went wrong, and then I identified the sin of others, and then somehow, I began to feel a release.
After I gave up trying to find a replacement idol (i.e. another church) I really began to sense His presence. But even looking for another church was a distraction from the work the Lord wanted to do in my heart. There is plenty of time for another church at some point, don’t feel pressured to find one right now. If you are not even hungry to be in His Word at this point, you have no business going to church to get fed. Please don’t get me wrong, I am not looking down on your because you don’t have a ahunger, I didn’t either and some days I still don’t! It is normal when you have been so legalistic to lose your appetite for His Word. But your number one priority right now should be to regain your hunger for Him. And even if you don’t feel it, pray that you will. Just take one day at a time.
Not be grounded in the Word opens you up to all sorts of false teachings. It’s ok to take some time to get to know Jesus again. All He wants is to bless you and heal you, and set you free. And that is my prayer for you – that you won’t settle for anything less than Jesus Christ and HIS righteousness!! Have hope…He is faithful to redeem us.
I also read that CD was not a Christian on his site or on “uncensored”. I’d be glad to hear that has changed.
DB… I don’t agree. If you are not grounded in the Word you should not be test driving anything. That is how we are deceived further – the whole itching ears thing. The Holy Spirit leads us into all truth, and it is under HIs guidance our minds are transformed, even our misunderstanding of how to even read the Word. Don’t you think God would reveal truth to us if we seek Him in His Word? How could attending a church to heal be safer than simply seeking God Himself through His Word?
And if we, as victims of legalism, the SGM system, whatever, are likely to read scripture with a spin on it as you say, how much MORE will we HEAR things with a spin on it while attending other churches?? THat is opening ourselves up to false teaching, as I said. If we can’t (or are not willing) to sit at the feet of Jesus asking Him to teach us by the Holy Spirit, then we have no business going to anyone else asking THEM to teach us.
Kali, I don’t know that the situation has changed, or if just the profile has. Until I hear back from him I will leave on commenting further on his background.
let me quickly add that the support of others is indeed important, but I am saying that this doesn’t have to come through a traditional church-setting. Meaning the building, programs, services, etc. If you have friends who are believers, then spend time with them and have some accountability, but we need to think outside the box we’ve been put in that the “church” is the building and the programs. You can follow Paul’s suggestion to not forsake the assembling of yourselves, and never step foot in a church building. People do it all the time.
Not to say this situation would be permanent, but for someone who has not rightly viewed church authority, whose personal relationship is damamged by legalism and abuse, the last thing they need is more “church” – they do need more Jesus.
Hey Eponine! On a lighter note and a slight change of subject, I also (and my grown daughters) LOVE Les Miserables. I hope that your name selection has more to do with the fact that she sings some of the most moving music in the show and not from her life circumstances!
Praying for you, sweetie.
Concerned,
I applaud your boldness. I, too, would like to know if CD Host is a believer in Jesus Christ.
DB,
I see the excellent point you are making. The thing is, when you are so engorged with legalistic teaching (like eponine’s accountability group requiring (competing?) regular “quiet times”), fear becomes your constant companion. You become afraid of the consequences of not meeting SGM expectations (notice I didn’t say “God’s”). There are many voices telling you what to do, almost silencing the still, quiet voice of the Lord. If eponine does not give the Lord time to work through this, he/she will not recognize true/false doctrine in other churches, and might even fall into the same type of authoritarian clutches, simply because it is familiar, and familiar is safe. I guess there has to be a balance.
The most important thing to recognize is that we have freedom in Christ, that His Spirit teaches us all differently, and that there is no rush for eponine to leave where he/she is at to find a new church. He/she needs to hear the Lord speak, then move forward in faith. This might take time.
Eponine,
Do whatever you do by faith. That is, the Lord has spoken and you know it, and you move forward in trust. There is good in all the advice you’ve been given by DB, Concerned, Keepinstep, etc., but you are use to being told which way to go by people. Take what we say and test it before the Lord. As someone said above, the Lord will speak in many different ways, times, and places. Test it by the word of God, of course, but the Lord doesn’t make it difficult. “My sheep know my voice.” We just have to silence the other voices crowding it out (these voices will be the ones shouting at you to conform, to obey, to please others, to be afraid of what will happen if you drop the balls SGM has you spinning). This might mean withdrawing a little from activities that cause you to feel pressured to preform. At the same time, you will be testing the reactions of your leadership based on how they deal with a little less of your meeting attendance. Will they respond gracefully or forcefully?
As you wait on the Lord, there are suggestions here that everyone can offer on what they did/read to find truth. I depended highly on a wonderful man who lived in the late 19th century, Andrew Murray. He was truly a father of the faith. He teaches about what it means to wait on the Lord, and to surrender all to Him.
Again, though we are speaking through the interenet, everyone here wants only to support you. We would agree that our advice is only that: advice. The word of the Lord to you is of vital importance. We can share our solutions, but God will show you which ones will work for you alone. He sees you as an individual. He knows exactly what you need. The Lord bless you mightily as you seek Him!
An after thought: it might help to find someone who is balanced by grace who you trust completely to help you walk through all this. This will be a person who won’t tell you what to do, but will help you work through your thoughts and feelings to find out what God wants.
One more thing: Eponine, Concerned has only been out of SGM for three or four months. Her experience is happening NOW, which means that it is currently on-going. She has great passion for the Lord. You might be able to relate to her the most. Just a thought. Praying for you!
CD-Host,
I’m sorry. I’ve deleted your “visit a gay friendly church”, “you might have a slander case”, and “visit a unitarian church” posts.
None of this advice is Biblical. I know that we have a different view of Scripture, but as the host here, I feel a responsibility to those who post in this tread in particular.
I thought that we had an understanding after our phone conversation.
You have an understanding of Scripture. Please don’t give advice here that contradicts what Scripture teaches.
I think that your ideas in crafting a good resignation letter can be helpful, so those posts remain.
I hope you understand.
Everyone here knows that I’m not in the habit of deleting comments, and I leave many comments up that i personally disagree with.
There does need to be a line that can’t be crossed, and the posts I deleted crossed that line.
We can jump on another thread and have a theological debate (although I may not participate for long), but this thread is different than all other threads.
peace,
Jim
Canary,
You are correct Concerned is a much more recent SGM refugee and Eponine would likely be better able to relate to her.
Just remember that is isn’t healthy or Biblical to go forever without being part of a church. I came pretty close to turning my back on church in general and I know how tempting it is to just turn inward because of the pain.
“Do whatever you do by faith. That is, the Lord has spoken and you know it, and you move forward in trust. [Y]ou are used to being told which way to go by people. Take what we say and test it before the Lord. [T]he Lord will speak in many different ways, times, and places. Test it by the word of God, of course, but the Lord doesn’t make it difficult. “My sheep know my voice.” We just have to silence the other voices crowding it out >snip<
As you wait on the Lord, there are suggestions here that everyone can offer on what they did/read to find truth. >snip<
Again, though we are speaking through the internet, everyone here wants only to support you. We would agree that our advice is only that: advice. The word of the Lord to you is of vital importance. We can share our solutions, but God will show you which ones will work for you alone. He sees you as an individual. He knows exactly what you need. The Lord bless you mightily as you seek Him!”
This is so good, Canary, and something that I have to do more of!!
Howdy Ellie! Hope your week is going well!
DB,
The thing is, you are jumping to conclusions. No one is trying to say anything about ditching “church” forever. Eponine needs time, that’s all. Time and the freedom from legalism to make a good choice as to where she can fellowship in spirit and truth. I think that there are many ways to meet with the body of Christ and be encouraged in the faith without the rules of when and how.
I do respect your opinion. I think we are on more of the same page than we think. Eponine and people like her need to KNOW what their freedom in Christ is. To go from one church to another won’t necessarily help that. There is so much authoritarianism out there in the American church. That’s one reason why I pointed her to Concerned, who is being wise enough to step carefully, humble enough to seek guidance from those she trusts, and growing in passion for the Lord. Man, she’s on fire!
Peace?
DB, I have to admit, as a recent refugee, I am prone to swing to the other extreme after leaving an authoritarian church – that is, to completely want to run in the opposite direction of all things church-related. I don’t trust the church, I’ll be honest (at least not on most days) but I do believe the Word of God and want to obey it. The Word of God says there are blessings to being involved in fellowship with other believers. And that I am to love the Beloved of God, serve them, and encourage them. Now, how extensive is the accountability, protection, etc I’m not so sure of anymore, because those things were the areas I was abused in. I am gun-shy if you will. But I also am aware that I need time, and jumping into another church situation for the wrong reasons is spiritually dangerous (some of my reasons were because I was feeling guilty for not going anywhere, I was afraid I would fall away, I was afraid of what others would think, I wanted some answers to what had just happened to me and wanted someone to “comfort” me and make me feel spiritually safe again.)
So clearly if I had jumped into another church only a month or two after leaving SGM it would have proven disastrous. I am not writing off church forever, and certainly not everyone should follow the same path I am, (because He leads us differently) but I am learning that my legalistic viewpoint ran deeper than I thought originally. And it didn’t show it’s ugly head until it came time to “find a new church”. I visited several different churches in my area, of various denominations. One was preaching prosperity gospel, one was heavily reformed, one was more charismatic, one was a calvary chapel. I saw in each of these a temptation I was not able to withstand (yet). For example, after having spent 3 years under the teaching of indwelling sin and being reminded of how wicked I was, a little prosperity gospel feels good to be honest. But is it the whole truth? I was (and am still working on) realizing my identity IN CHRIST. I was learning how to love being in His Word, spending time with Him, learning to hear His voice again. Like canary said, throwing a bunch of new voices in the mix too soon would have been dangerous for me, and MIGHT be for Ep as well, but Lord will reveal that to her if that is the case.
So yes I am speaking from my personal experience, I can’t help but share what the Lord has taught me. I want others to find freedom and to keep pressing on, and find the joy of the Lord again. but I also echo what canary said, we all need to follow the voice of the Lord as revealed through His Word and in prayer. He is looking at our hearts. If our heart is to know Him more fully and in truth, He will be faithful to lead us. So at this time, I am not attending any church, and will wait on the Lord to lead me in that area too. I miss the familiarity and comfort of church, I have to admit. But this is an area He is working in me – I had such deep idolatry and dependence on the church. And it makes sense to me now that He would not have me learning to hear His voice again in the middle of a church right now.
Eponine, I am praying for you – I do know how difficult it is. I don’t have it all figured out, I’ve only been out of SGM since April, but I have to say the people the Lord has placed in my life since leaving that I can trust simply point me to Him, and they do that consistently. They don’t give specific advice, they don’t have an agenda except to see me come to know and love my Savior more each day. So that is the counsel I would give to you. I apologize if I came across like “DON’T go to church anywhere” I was in part reacting to the counsel another had given you which I believe was not grounded in Biblical truth. I think we all need time to heal, and starting back in a church too soon for someone who has been hurt is not only difficult, but can reopen wounds and even bring some more.
My concern is for your personal faith and for it to be tenderly nurtured right now. Seek the Lord, and He will lead you, but take the time you need. There really is no time frame we have to be on on the path to freedom and restoration. The important thing is that He is walking this with you, He loves you wildly, and is pursuing you with relentless grace. In other words – He’s got your back! (and your front!)
First of all, I just want to say I really admire the faith that each of you express in your comments and I’m sure with your lives. Your strong personal relationships with God is so evident in your speech, and it really spurs me on!
Concerned, Thank you for pointing out the correction from the comment from Cd-Host, I agree with you – I think church-hopping right now would not be beneficial to me. I would like to visit other churches to learn more about what they do, I think visiting a wide variety of churches, although interesting, may not help build my relationship with the Lord. Right now I am not fully grounded in the word and I’m afraid I may fall for anything that comes from the pulpit wherever I go.
However I do feel the need to stay at my current church. I fear my sinful tendencies would lead me further astray if I stopped going to church altogether and receiving the accountability I already have there. I would be tempted to not find another church, sleep in on Sundays, never have my quiet time, and tell myself that “I’ll get around to it later”.
Gracie,
I don’t necessarily have similar life situations. Thank you for your prayers 
Yes it is such a good play!! And definitely one of my favorite books. I had the chance to see it on Broadway and it was phenomenal!
Eponine was my favorite because of her beautiful songs in the show, and I got to meet her after the show when I saw it
To everyone else,
I appreciate all of your care for me – the fact that you all would give me advice and pray for me and care for me when you don’t even know me is astounding. It brings tears to my eyes as I read your loving comments reminding me of truth.
I’m sure we’re just debating minutia and are closer in opinion than we imagine.
Eponine, I hope your journey into grace and spiritual freedom is an easy and blessed one.
Eponine- I know actually what you mean about fearing that you will fall away and not having accountability. Just be grounded in the Word. Wherever you are, the Spirit will bring you discernment. If and when He calls you to leave, you will be equipped and will not be susceptible to falling away as much as you fear. Right now though, I know the fear is very real. I respect the fact you want to remain accountable. If you have any friends outside SGM at all that you trust, I’d encourage you to ask them for prayer during this time, and for those at your SGM church you can ask for prayer but you certainly don’t have to be specific. The more you are able to talk with others (be in online or in person) about what you are (dare I say it?) FEELING, the quicker you will heal.
I confessed my sin of idolatry to those in my care group and no one understood. So, don’t be surprised if the response you get to some of your “confessions” or need for prayer are saturated with things like “the church exposes idolatry, it doesn’t promote it” and how you need spiritual covering from them. Study what spiritual coverings are in the Bible, equip yourself. Be prepared to give an answer for what you believe and what your convictions are. Some of the things I first studied was the “covering” that my church always spoke of. I was told over and over that I would fall away, and this really freaked me out. You don’t have to go so far as to question the motives or love for you that others have, just weigh what they are saying, and try to remember that many well-meaning people are still blind, deceived, and love you very much all at the same time.
I think it was KIS that mentioned the exodus from Egypt. Many many have likened their exodus from SGM, legalism, whatever, to this, and rightly so. The paralells are amazing, so I’d read it agin and see what the Lord reveals. There were several scriptures in Isaiah that really encouraged me – because I was feeling all alone and vulnerable in the wilderness – having left the “comforts” of my church (like the Egyptians left the comforts of Egypt, having meat, etc, they grumbled and GOd was not pleased.I didn’t want to grumble, so I asked God to encourge me because I was feeling terribly so awful, alone and vulnerable.) These are just some of the verses He used to speak to my heart, and they are the reason I said to read Isaiah. They remind me that even in the wilderness, He is there, speaking to us. So when you are feeling dry like a deserted wilderness: (the first two speak of those who would lead us astray and away from the Lord)
Isaiah 29:13-14 “Then the Lord said, ‘Because this people draw near with their words and honor me with their lip service, but they remove their hearts far from me, and their reverence consists of tradition learned by rote, therefore behold, I will once again deal marvelously with this people, wonderously marvelous; and the wisdom of their wise men will perish, and the discernment of their discerning men will be concealed.”
30:9-11 “For this is a rebellious people, false sons, sons who refuse to listen to the instruction of the Lord. Who say to the seers ‘You must not see visions’ and to the prohpets ‘You must not prophesy to us what is right, speak to us pleasant words, prophesy illusions. Get out of the way, turn aside from the path, let us hear no more about the Holy One of Israel.”
51:1,3
“Listen to me, you who pursue righteousness, Who seek the Lord, Look to the Rock from which you were hewn. And to the quarry from which you were dug…He will comfort all her waste places. And her wilderness He will make like Eden, And her desert like the garden of the Lord.”
14 “The exile will soon be set free, and will not die in the dungeon, nor will his bread be lacking”
54:17 “No weapon that is forged against you will prosper, and every tongue that accuses you in judgment you will condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the Lord, and their vindication is from me.”
59:1 “Behold the Lord’s hand is not so short that it cannot save; Nor his ear so dull that it cannot hear.”
38:19 “…it is You who has kept my soul from the pit of nothingness, for you have cast all my sins behind Your back.”
30:18 “Therefore the Lord longs to be gracious to you, and therefore He waits on high to have compassion on you. For the Lord is a God of justice; How blessed are all those who long for Him.”
Concerned,
The Lord used the Exodus from Egypt parallel with my husband and I, too. I think it’s amazing that so many others hear the same thing. What confirmation!
I found an amazing thing today - A journal I began shortly after our PDI experience. The first entry is dated in 1990. I’ve typed parts of it below. I’m afraid it will feel all too familiar to some of you.
It has been nearly seven months since we were asked to leave ____ (name of church), yet even now I feel deep despondency and pain over the whole situation.
“If an enemy were insulting me, I could endure it; if a foe were raising himself against me, I could hide from him. But it is you, a man like myself, my companion, my close friend, with whom I once enjoyed sweet fellowship as we walked with the throng at the house of God.” Psalm 55:12-14
Most of our close friends have turned their backs on us and withdrawn their love and support. Our name is being dragged through the mud as those in leadership protect and defend their position.
My heart is wounded and in anguish.
“But I call to God, and the Lord saves me. Evening, morning and noon I cry out in distress, and He hears my voice. He ransoms me unharmed from the battle waged against me, even though many oppose me.” Psalm 55:17-18
___(my husband) and I have come to realize just in the past few weeks that we are in need of spiritual healing. We cannot bring healing to ourselves; we can only rely on You to put salve on our wounded hearts.
“Cast your cares on the Lord and He will sustain you; He will never let the righteous fall.” Psalm 55:22
Gracie,
Those verses are so encouraging! Yet it is so sad you needed to use them in regards to your own church.
How long were you attending at PDI church before asked to leave?
Hi Eponine,
We attended for 3-4 years. My story is written earlier on this thread. It gives all the details of our experience. When I first found the blogs, I felt that my story couldn’t possibly have any relevance since it happened so long ago. I was hesitant to comment and sometimes gave disclaimers afterwards about how things might have changed since our day. But the more I heard and read, the more I realized that in some SGM churches, these same types of experiences continue to repeat themselves. So, I’ve stuck around!
Gracie,
Ps. 55 hits so close to home. How well David described his feelings, and how much like them were yours and mine. The sense of betrayal by people I loved, people who were claiming they loved me, was almost too much to handle. Thank God there is healing in His hands! We can say today that we are doing well, because of the Lord’s unending kindness and mercy!
canary saith: “The Lord used the Exodus from Egypt parallel with my husband and I, too. I think it’s amazing that so many others hear the same thing. What confirmation!”
Maybe you went through the next phase, too – of getting God’s vision for building or joining something new and different. Then the story switched to the second journey into the promised land, when the exiles returned from captivity to rebuild the temple and the city of Jerusalem.
The types and intensity of spiritual opposition they experienced (as in Nehemiah, Zechariah, etc) are essentially what I’ve experienced since leaving SGM. Once the enemy understood I was not going back to Egypt, but was intent on claiming my inheritance in Zion (Christ), he began throwing the same kinds of lies and discouragement at me that he did at those who moved back to Jerusalem from Babylon.
It’s really amazing how intensely he works against us, first to keep us from understanding our inheritance in Christ, and second to keep us from actually claiming and walking-into that inheritance. I guess that’s because we begin to threaten his kingdom by believing what’s written about us in the Word, and acting on those promises to expand the Kingdom of God at the enemy’s expense.
KIS, I have only just begun to realize the extent of the spiritual warfare…I know everyone’s experience is different post-SGM but a step by step guide to leaving and recovering would sure comein handy! I know, we have the Word, but it is amazing the things you see completely the same when you read others’ stories.
Initially, there is the sense of relief, and freedom, and joy. Then, for me, it began to diminish, fear set in, then great anger, then depression. Then it was boredom and restlessness (I’ve never been good at waiting on the Lord!)
But there has always been un undercurrent of spiritual warfare since I left that at times comes to the surface and I “see it” other times it is so deceptive and subtle…right now i have had this nagging feeling I am being accused, or attacked, or something, but not sure what it is. A wise sister in the Lord told me once that if it is a vague, confusing thing then it is the enemy, because the Lord does not play games – His voice is clear, His conviction by HIs Spirit is clear, and we know when He speaks. So I guess I have been under attack of somesort for the past few weeks. Just not sure what the enemy is up to.
I will wander in and out of the blogs as I feel led I suppose. I wish I could fast-forward a few years and be done with all this. I get very upset thinking that even more time is being taken from me during the post-SGM months – as if the years stolen were not enough. I know the Lord can restore the years the locusts have eaten, but when you are looking at the devastation, it is hard to have faith it will ever be beautiful again.
Praying for some beauty in the midst of the ashes for all of us…
“For you and Jim to be shunned and yet be told your were imagining it is weird but a tool of control that I saw in our SGM churches.”
Thank you for sharing that! Out of what I believed was God’s will for my children, I sent them to public schools. (After years of prayer, etc.) Though they had been in the church from the time they were babies, they were regularly shunned by other families, often in very painful, embarrassing and public ways. For years I was told it was just my imagination and of course, this “wild” imagination of mine must be based in sin. I can’t tell you the comfort I felt when another family, as they were leaving the church, came to me and ask my forgiveness for having shunned my children all those years.
Wow! It may have hurt to have seen my children suffer at the hands of their church family but it still felt just a bit good to discover I wasn’t crazy or sinful to have seen what was right in front of me. Oh, how I made my children suffer growing up in that kind of a situation. How long did I wait for SG to change and my children to be loved as I saw others being loved. How foolish of me. How hopeful I was that my church family would one day live as they spoke.
{{{{{{{{{{{{{ Stunned }}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}} <—– hugs
I truly understand what you are talking about. My kids were shunned by some, too. I pray that the verse about “restoring the years that the locusts have eaten” will come to pass in both our families.
“there’s still a part of me that hits “Publish” and then is almost too scared to come back and look to see what is said, just in case its’s “SGM-like”!!”
Dan, I feel just the same way. Who knew all that hold over hog wash would still be in my mind? I pray the Lord cleans my brain out of anything that is not of Him.
“long standing progression of interaction. There is never a single moment, one deciding action where the victim can point and say: “yup, right there, that is the bad thing I’m talking about.”
YES! Thank you for putting it into words I was unable to form.
“Pain
Finally, can any one help me understand why after so long, the experience at SGM hurts so badly. I have continued to attend church but have never regained my confidence.”
Greg, YES and AMEN. If you find the key, will you, please, tell me. It is not that I seek confidence in myself, nor in man. I want to know it only in Christ. But I have NO confidence that I am capable of hearing his voice any more or correctly interpreting His holy scripture. I do not lay this all at the feet of PDI/SG. It is due to some other circumstances that, though supported by SG, is not all connected to them.
DB, Oh my gosh, I think I know who you are! (Hope that didn’t scare you.) And you sure as heck better remember who I am.
As I read your line, “Yes. I got into trouble for the way I breastfed my children.” and then your other line, “Exact accusation because I wouldn’t agree to not discuss my parenting philosophies with others in the church,” I thought, I know a family from my old church that went through exactly the same thing. It took me moments before I realized you had the same intials as “that family” and the same name! I am such a dolt some days. OK, so how do I let you know who I am without giving away the whole store?
Last time you saw me it was at a wedding in 2001 and, ironically, it was that same day I received a letter from CF inviting me to find another church! Here goes the clues as to who I am. (Not that I am trying to play games, but as I said, no desire to give the store away publically.) I am a bit younger than you. Came to the church at 19 and already had my two children and a horrible marriage. You probably never even met my husband as I attended church, home group and prayer cell alone always. (Other than with, of course, my children.) My son is around the same age as your number 2 and 3 daughter. (Hate to “number” your kids but I don’t want to name your children here.) My daughter just a tad younger than that. I have almost black hair. We shared the same homegroup together, though at times you were in another home group. We would sometimes talk after church in the cafeteria where we would work to set up sunday lunches for the newbies. We ran into each other sporadically after that and it was always a pleasure to see the way your kids were growing.
My life had taken MANY changes since we last saw each other. I am in school now, too, having waited until my youngest was away at college before taking “my turn”. I wish I had gone earlier but I’m there now and that is all I can do. Only one semester left. No longer married. Heart still breaks over that daily. If you can remember me, all I ever wanted to do was glorify God through my marriage and raise my children to know how much Christ loved them. God had other plans. I think now, maybe, He wants to glorify Himself by providing for a woman who has never had her own career or own anything. Maybe He will show the world His power by taking this broken down, crushed spirit, who after decades of following hard after her savior, finally turned around to shake her fist at Him and what He has allowed to befall her life, and He STILL LOVES ME. I am sorry if I am about to sound religious (I hate that), but I am sitting here crying in amazement that He still loves me. Though to be completely honest (and characteristically for now completely lacking tact), I am still also angry at Him (amazing that He doesn’t strike me with a lightening bolt. He would be so right to). But He knows it and I believe, some day in his timing He will lead me out of whatever sin I am in, or hurt I am in, or whatever it is I am in, out to where the sun shines brighter. But I hope I never forget my years of brokenness. I’m sure God has some plan for it all.
So DB, feel free to get a hold of me and say hi if you want. I won’t be offended if you don’t. No worries. Good luck in school and I’m still curious what you’re studying. You’re a smart woman and i can see you will be a blessing where ever you wind up.
Concerned saith: “I know the Lord can restore the years the locusts have eaten, but when you are looking at the devastation, it is hard to have faith it will ever be beautiful again.”
I know the feeling. To use a metaphor, we instinctively think the “green” growing times of forest or garden are the best, because we feel so comfortable in them. But the Bible shows God working powerfully in desert settings. He repeatedly leads his own into the desert to purify and equip them there, before leading them out of the desert, and into more effective service.
There’s much more we can say about how God uses the desert, but the main thing is not to look on the desert as punishment or a lesser blessing. The great thing about the desert is that God meets his people there in unusual and powerful ways.
Hi Stunned!
I just found your above comment in our spam filter… sorry! I hope it wasn’t languishing there for long… (I promise I’ll check it more often!!)
Carole,
No worries. When I didn’t see it I assumed I had mistakenly deleted it unstead of submitting it.
Stunned,
If the powers-that-be allow (and I’m not talking about Jesus or anything
I give permission for you to have my email or just link over to my blog (I think if you double click my name, that will happen.)
I just had a chance to read your post and I’ll read it again with the intent of sleuthing. I have a slight clue, but I’m not sure. It may sound odd, but 2001 seems so long ago. Was it Kristen’s wedding or Ruth’s (Sarah’s was later on because it was the same year as my daughter’s wedding? I’ll read it over agin after I get back home from school this afternoon unless I’m completely overwhelmed by schoolwork.
Just a funny; my future son in law was at that wedding and we all sort of sat there trying not to laugh. If it was the wedding I was thinking, Dave Harvey went on and on and on and on to the point where a bridesmaid and a groomsman passed out. Literally, folks. And it was the second time Kevin (sil) heard a bride promise to intoxicate her groom with her love.
Which he thought peculiar. And he went on to promise *Jennifer* to intoxicate *her* with *his* love. Um, only a few people in that audience got the joke, so you had about ten people laughing and the rest of the crowd wondering what was so funny.
It truely breaks my heart to hear of the hurt people are still going through. That our Father loves us?! It is every Christians birthright (well, rebirthright, to be technical,) to bask in the love, favor, and grace afforded them by the cross. This is basic.
But I remember going through it, too. I wondered if I’d ever stop hurting from what happened to me. But I have, honestly. With a lot of prayer and a lot of healing. For me, I had to do a lot of personal growth, a lot of being ok with who I am as a person. To be honest, I’m still working on that.
Stunned, back to you, are you still in the Philly area?
Where do you go to school? If you say WCU, I’ll just about faint (because I’m a student, too.
Do you go to another church?
How are your children?
I really need to email you because the rest of the readership must either be frustrated by my longwindedness or have already skipped this post. (sorry.)
Oh, yes, you asked what I’m studying, I’m a Biology major with Psychology and Health Science minors. I’m doing the necessary work to apply to medical school :-O
Stunned,
I know you are posting particularly to DB, but my heart goes out to you. I’m so glad that He is making clear and real to you that HE STILL LOVES YOU! I don’t think our human emotions intimidate Him at all. In fact, it is probably far more healthy for us to own up to them and deal with them rather than suppress and deny them because we think Christians should never be angry at God.
It’s a small world. If we can facilitate the 2 of you getting together, let me know.
DB, I couldn’t find contact info on your blog, but will give your email addy to stunned if she asks.
This is pretty cool
sgmrefuge@gmail.com
Thanks, Jim.
If she prefers, she could post into my blog because I moderate all of my comments. I could just not approve it and it will stay unpublished.
I wish I could just give my email or cell number and be done with it, but my mom didn’t raise any fools.
I’m just thinking some more, Stunned was sort of androgynous in my mind. I’m still trying to figure who you are (I have a few guesses.)
It’s funny to think of my second and thirdborn as children. They were when you knew us well and you were sweetly protective of them by intentionally not mentioning their names. Funny, I sound like an old crone because one is a doctor and the other is a veteran Marine who did a tour of duty in Iraq. Sigh, they don’t stay little.